1 SHAMASH.ORG /usr/www/wwwhc/listserv/archives/torch-d May 2007 2 76 27_more about Robinson curric.13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM30_Tue, 1 May 2007 05:19:06 -0700297_iso-8859-1 I recently asked for feedback from the list members who had experience with the Robinson curriculum, and it seems that no one had personally used it. Since I've done quite a bit of research and found out some things that I found useful, I thought I would share them with the list. [...]43_1May200705:19:06-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 79 440 31_Re: more about Robinson curric.5_Kelli33_Natural_Irish_Terrier@COMCAST.NET30_Tue, 1 May 2007 09:04:18 -0400403_iso-8859-1 You wrote:
"I was surprised to see a recommendation for Sonlight over RC (Robinson curriculum) as more suitable, since I'm quite familiar with Sonlight. I've purchased two years of teacher's guides from Sonlight, and they are very xtian - they are geared toward missionary families, bible is an integral part of the schedule, and a number of the books recommended are overtly xtian." [...]54_1May200709:04:18-0400Natural_Irish_Terrier@COMCAST.NET 520 105 21_Avivah/Singapore math14_Mandy Oeschger23_sailorswife@KNOLOGY.NET30_Tue, 1 May 2007 09:55:10 -0500531_iso-8859-1 Hi Avivah, So would you recomend a year of Singapore math for a 1st/2nd grader? I've been using Abeka math which I'm not too happy with and my DS is about 40 lessons into 1st grade but we both tire of it. Abeka is highly xian but in my ignorance took the advice of someone I trused with their experience but abeka just isn't right for us.
Also, I'd like to start a Science program this year too. I looked at the classical home education web site and the Earth Science book really appeals to my DS 6y.o. but it's [...]44_1May200709:55:10-0500sailorswife@KNOLOGY.NET 626 79 25_Re: Avivah/Singapore math13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM30_Tue, 1 May 2007 09:34:38 -0700499_iso-8859-1 Mazel tov, Mandy!! What kind of input do you want on juggling, how to keep all the balls in the air? :)

I don't favor starting kids in structured math programs when they are so young. My 8 yo started when he did (5.5) because he really wanted to, not because I pushed him in any way. My now 6.5 yod is doing a math book that a neighbor who was a teacher was throwing away last year that was brand new. Again, I don't push her, she just thinks its fun to be like the big kids. [...]43_1May200709:34:38-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 706 66 20_Re: Avivah/singapore14_Mandy Oeschger23_sailorswife@KNOLOGY.NET30_Tue, 1 May 2007 11:36:51 -0500527_iso-8859-1 Sorry to all.. I meant to say SAXON not SINGAPORE..

Thanks, Mandy

"With His pinion He will cover you, and beneath His wings you will be protected; His truth is shield and armor." Psalms 91:4

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The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by
Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org,
a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and
an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...]44_1May200711:36:51-0500sailorswife@KNOLOGY.NET 773 68 5_Saxon13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM30_Tue, 1 May 2007 09:44:23 -0700542_iso-8859-1 >>Sorry to all.. I meant to say SAXON not SINGAPORE.<<

Okay, I guess you can disregard my response about Singapore!

I'm not a fan of Saxon, certainly not in the early years. Not at all. I used it with my older three kids, they didn't like it and neither did I. Especially if you want to use Saxon, wait until 54 and just drill them in whatever way works best for you all in their math facts. No sense in letting them be tortured for three years doing all that drudgery. Can you tell we really didn't enjoy it? I [...]43_1May200709:44:23-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 842 88 25_Re: Avivah/Singapore math14_Evelyn Krieger18_ek2000@COMCAST.NET30_Tue, 1 May 2007 12:10:04 -0400604_iso-8859-1 Mandy,
For a 6 year old, there are so many wonderful nonfiction books about the Earth, particularly Eyewitness and DK. I bought two, and the rest I ordered from o ur libraries. I also found a wealth of sites on the web, including National Geographic Kids that have interactive displays, great pictures, and info. If you don't mind putting together a unit from these resources, you can save money and tailor it to your daughter's level and interests. A young child doesn't really need an expensive text.
I recommend Sigapore, but I would supplement it with lots of maniplatives, and [...]39_1May200712:10:04-0400ek2000@COMCAST.NET 931 75 25_Re: Avivah/Singapore math13_Sharon Brooks23_Sharonajb@SBCGLOBAL.NET30_Tue, 1 May 2007 10:44:26 -0700550_iso-8859-1 Mazal Tov Mandy!! Welcome Immanuel Moshe!

Sharon
Thanks,
Mandy
Trying to learn how to juggle with 4 boys 2,4,6, and...Immanuel Moshe born April 5th ( 17th Nissan ) B"H" Imput on this is highly welcome too!!! :-)

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The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by
Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org,
a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and
an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...]44_1May200710:44:26-0700Sharonajb@SBCGLOBAL.NET 1007 592 31_Re: more about Robinson curric.14_Malkie Swidler18_malkie18@GMAIL.COM30_Tue, 1 May 2007 20:49:11 +0300543_ISO-8859-1 Kelli--

I am pretty open-minded about xtian content, and I saw a Charlotte Mason
book recommended here that I had purchased before-- and I was SHOCKED that
it be recommended on this list because it was a constant barrage of xtian
content with what seemed like precious little CM tossed in. But clearly, the
other family got a lot out of it-- it worked for them. They were right to
recommend it, and I was right to reject it-- because the point of what we
are doing is what works for us as individuals. [...]39_1May200720:49:11+0300malkie18@GMAIL.COM 1600 72 38_different strokes for different folks!13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM30_Tue, 1 May 2007 12:34:02 -0700595_iso-8859-1 >>That's what it's all about-- finding out what works for you, and ditching
the rest.<<

Exactly.

I apologize for my lack of clarity in my post earlier - I'm not recommending the Robinson curriculum, and am not buying it. Personally, I don't think it's worth the money. What I meant to share was my enthusiasm at finding an approach that matches my way of doing things in many ways, and has encouraged me to do other things (primarily self-directed learning) in a way I wouldn't have ventured to before - with gratifying results. I found the articles on the site [...]43_1May200712:34:02-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 1673 194 26_[QUAR] Re: [TORCH-D] Saxon0_21_YiddisheMameh@AOL.COM28_Tue, 1 May 2007 15:12:51 EDT576_US-ASCII In a message dated 5/1/2007 1:45:43 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
avivahwerner@yahoo.com writes:

I'm not a fan of Saxon, certainly not in the early years. Not at all. I
used it with my older three kids, they didn't like it and neither did I.
Especially if you want to use Saxon, wait until 54 and just drill them in whatever
way works best for you all in their math facts. No sense in letting them be
tortured for three years doing all that drudgery. Can you tell we really
didn't enjoy it? I actually still have a couple of the teacher's [...]40_1May200715:12:51EDTYiddisheMameh@AOL.COM 1868 31 25_Re: Avivah/Singapore math8_cillakat18_cillakat@GMAIL.COM30_Tue, 1 May 2007 18:02:07 -0230654_ISO-8859-1 Mandy,

R.E.A.L. Science (www.classicalhomeeducation.com) has been amazing for
us as well. Both of my kids love it.....even my little one who is in
preschool. She loooooves to do it.

the nice thing is that if you don't like it, it should be an easy
resell in any homeschool group irl or online.

:)
k

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The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by
Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org,
a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and
an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...]39_1May200718:02:07-0230cillakat@GMAIL.COM 1900 59 25_Re: Avivah/Singapore math8_cillakat18_cillakat@GMAIL.COM30_Tue, 1 May 2007 18:00:34 -0230398_ISO-8859-1 I can't say enough good things about RightStart Math. We've tried
Math-U-See, Singapore, random workbooks from the teacher supply store
(horizons), a few pages from a friends Saxon book....

I'm good at math, so is Alana but she finds it boring in general and
doesn't like to do anything that requires mental effort (though
adderall has helped this by about 80%). [...]39_1May200718:00:34-0230cillakat@GMAIL.COM 1960 36 25_Re: Avivah/Singapore math14_Jennifer Moran20_jrmoran@UCHICAGO.EDU30_Tue, 1 May 2007 15:05:16 -0500615_us-ascii Evelyn wrote:

> For a 6 year old, there are so many wonderful
> nonfiction books about the Earth, particularly
> Eyewitness and DK. I bought two, and the rest I
> ordered from o ur libraries.

I'll definitely second that recommendation. The DK science
books on various topics are beautifully done. As a once-and-
future science teacher, I can tell you that they provide
excellent foundation in core concepts that would be taught
in a middle-school level science program, so if you decide
to go more conventionally college-prep later, it shouldn't
be a problem. [...]41_1May200715:05:16-0500jrmoran@UCHICAGO.EDU 1997 41 44_Re: learning tefilla (was jewish curriculum)14_Jennifer Moran20_jrmoran@UCHICAGO.EDU30_Tue, 1 May 2007 19:27:25 -0500582_us-ascii Sharon wrote:
> We were told to keep teaching him davening after he
> knew his food brachos - very early on. He davens
> morning brachos, a mini-psukei, and partial shema at
> this point. A young child's siddur, basically, by
> rote.

I know that dayschool teachers have all these catchy tunes
they use to help kids learn davening, but neither my husband
nor I have a dayschool background, so we don't know these
tunes. Is there a place where we can find this sort of
material on tape, or mp3 for download? Barring that, is
there a [...]41_1May200719:27:25-0500jrmoran@UCHICAGO.EDU 2039 51 38_Re: Learning Tefillah (Was Curriculum)16_Russell J Hendel17_rjhendel@JUNO.COM30_Tue, 1 May 2007 21:15:14 -0400403_us-ascii I gave a lecture at Aish once on how to teach Tefillah (Whether to adults
or children). The lecture was based on the approach of Rabbi Hirsch with
a hands-on approach.

Everyone accepts the Talmudic dictum that PRAYERS CORRESPOND TO TEMPLE
OFFERINGS.

Most scholars understand this as a correspondence of UNITS (Morning
offering corresponds to morning prayer etc). [...]38_1May200721:15:14-0400rjhendel@JUNO.COM 2091 70 44_Re: learning tefilla (was jewish curriculum)13_Sharon Brooks23_Sharonajb@SBCGLOBAL.NET30_Tue, 1 May 2007 19:24:54 -0700557_iso-8859-1 I used tunes I knew when I could - Adon Olam, Mah Tovu, Ashrei, Shema...
Beyond that I went with a chant not so unlike things I've heard in shul if
anyone ever davens these out loud and I'm there (seldom). I think the
thing that really helped was starting with what he knew and adding one at a
time till he was reasonably comfortable with it. The only mistake I see
that I made, and I still struggle with, was pushing impatiently when he'd
get silly and make mistakes or get distracted. You know, in school, they do
all [...]44_1May200719:24:54-0700Sharonajb@SBCGLOBAL.NET 2162 85 44_Re: learning tefilla (was jewish curriculum)12_Rena Weisman19_renaweisman@COX.NET30_Tue, 1 May 2007 19:59:49 -0700546_iso-8859-1 Jennifer,

My 4.5 yo and 2.5 yo love the cd "A New Day". It is nusach Chabad and is
available at www.kehot.com

It goes through the entire Davening, so it is very long. However, it is sung
in a very easy to listen to melody.

I started with the CD when my 4.5 yo started giving up her daytime nap, I
would put her in her room with the CD on, so that she could have "quiet
time". She learned quite a bit of Davening during that time, from listening
to the CD. Now, since her naptime and quiet time [...]40_1May200719:59:49-0700renaweisman@COX.NET 2248 118 37_juggling young 'uns and homeschooling13_Sharon Brooks23_Sharonajb@SBCGLOBAL.NET30_Tue, 1 May 2007 20:26:47 -0700612_iso-8859-1 Mandy wrote that she's struggling with the juggling (if I understood correctly) of homeschooling an early school aged child, a preschooler, a toddler, and a newborn. I found this to be one of my greater problems to date (Thought I've got one fewer). If you don't have outside help or relatives nearby, it's a continual challenge. I've found myself limiting my commitments and being very flexible at home just to make it work somewhat without make us all nutty. I allow videos (albeit Torah or otherwise educational) where I otherwise might have said no. I've leaned more towards unschooling this [...]44_1May200720:26:47-0700Sharonajb@SBCGLOBAL.NET 2367 61 25_Re: Avivah/Singapore math10_Sarah Kopp17_svkopp@012.NET.IL30_Wed, 2 May 2007 08:08:49 +0200583_ISO-8859-1 I don't know exactly what is available in the US in terms of math
strengthening games, but here in Israel I bought something called "Olam
HaMisparim" that includes 3 different math games that strengthen basic
arithmetic functions. Based on familiar games like bingo, memory and
dominoes, but you have to make sums of 10 or 20 or 30, or have to match
the answer to the equation etc. I was worried my kids wouldn't like it
and it would be another "educational" wast of money but in fact they
like all the games quite a bit. Frankly they seem happy [...]38_2May200708:08:49+0200svkopp@012.NET.IL 2429 131 44_Re: learning tefilla (was jewish curriculum)14_Malkie Swidler18_malkie18@GMAIL.COM30_Wed, 2 May 2007 15:19:48 +0300347_ISO-8859-1 Find a kid who knows the songs. Bring a tape recorder or even better, an mp3
recorder of some sort (so the next time this comes up, we'll have the
solution ready to e-mail!). Someone, somewhere will be happy to oblige
(maybe someone's kid on this list, as a hesed?). It's super low frills, but
you'll get the job done. [...]39_2May200715:19:48+0300malkie18@GMAIL.COM 2561 77 44_Re: learning tefilla (was jewish curriculum)14_Sigal Gottlieb23_sigalgottlieb@YAHOO.COM30_Wed, 2 May 2007 06:38:20 -0700437_ascii I liked the chabad tape too. Also there is a cute tape by velvel pasternak with very nice tunes for some of davening. We have somewhat outgrown it but still listen to it in the car because the tunes are nice.

----- Original Message ----
From: Jennifer Moran
To: TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG
Sent: Tuesday, May 1, 2007 8:27:25 PM
Subject: Re: [TORCH-D] learning tefilla (was jewish curriculum) [...]44_2May200706:38:20-0700sigalgottlieb@YAHOO.COM 2639 43 56_Re: learning tefilla (was jewish curriculum) (2.46/4.00)14_Rebecca Harper22_hudabecca@RAINMALL.COM30_Wed, 2 May 2007 10:35:44 -0400551_ISO-8859-1 >all this out loud with other kids for years. Yet somehow I expected him to
>do it by himself nicely once he learned it. Not a good expectation.

>sharon

So I'm not the only one who makes mistakes! Thanks for sharing that with us, it makes me feel a little less alone :) I thought mine could do it nicely alone (and sometimes he does), he likes to sometimes daven alone, and since he is the only one who davens Shomei Esrei (we're only up to half of it right now), lately I have been letting him, however, I've noticed [...]43_2May200710:35:44-0400hudabecca@RAINMALL.COM 2683 468 21_"re" learning tefilla4_Laya17_tolife18@JUNO.COM28_Wed, 2 May 2007 17:07:35 GMT769_- Thought this might be interesting in light of this thread.
KT,
Laya
working on accomodations for all our out of town guests for the bar mitzva coming up, and a reprint of my book too. whew!

Author of the best loved book for teens
"You Don't Have to Learn Everything the Hard Way"
www.AuntLaya.com
http://tinyurl.com/22fntt
www.auntlaya.blogspot.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://www.aish.com/spirituality/growth/Youre_Mistaken.aspYou're Mistaken
by Rabbi Yaakov Salomon
The challenge of accepting criticism. It was at a wedding some ten years ago. We interrupted our meal to say the evening service. I still remember where I was sitting during the prayers because I recall noticing [...]36_2May200717:07:35GMTtolife18@JUNO.COM 3152 34 44_Re: learning tefilla (was jewish curriculum)14_Jennifer Moran20_jrmoran@UCHICAGO.EDU30_Wed, 2 May 2007 17:53:21 -0500365_us-ascii > Find a kid who knows the songs. Bring a tape
> recorder or even better, an mp3 recorder of some
> sort (so the next time this comes up, we'll have the
> solution ready to e-mail!). Someone, somewhere will
> be happy to oblige (maybe someone's kid on this
> list, as a hesed?). It's super low frills, but
> you'll get the job done. [...]41_2May200717:53:21-0500jrmoran@UCHICAGO.EDU 3187 318 25_Re: "re" learning tefilla14_Bill Bernstein27_billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET30_Wed, 2 May 2007 19:28:28 -0500597_ISO-8859-1 Nice story.
I really have to question whether it happened and if it did I am
bothered by many elements in it.
First is the idea of interrupting the seudas mitzva of a wedding to
davven maariv. I know that today it's the accepted thing but it wasn't
always so.
Second is the idea of a gadol with little or no connection to someone
correcting his pronunciation. I remember my teacher in mussar, a
musmach of Reb Moshe zt'l, telling me that you never saw gedolim going
around correcting people.
Third, I would bet most people, especially in America, say [...]48_2May200719:28:28-0500billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET 3506 57 44_Re: learning tefilla (was jewish curriculum)14_Jennifer Moran20_jrmoran@UCHICAGO.EDU30_Wed, 2 May 2007 19:17:47 -0500563_us-ascii >> Find a kid who knows the songs. Bring a tape
>> recorder or even better, an mp3 recorder of some
>> sort (so the next time this comes up, we'll have the
>> solution ready to e-mail!). Someone, somewhere will
>> be happy to oblige (maybe someone's kid on this
>> list, as a hesed?). It's super low frills, but
>> you'll get the job done.
>
>If someone would do it as a chesed, I would be much
>obliged. I am living in the boonies now (not Chicago any
>longer) and resources are limited (except over the
>internet, [...]41_2May200719:17:47-0500jrmoran@UCHICAGO.EDU 3564 41 25_Re: "re" learning tefilla14_Jennifer Moran20_jrmoran@UCHICAGO.EDU30_Wed, 2 May 2007 19:48:27 -0500616_us-ascii Bill B. wrote:
>Finally one of the problems I perceive
>in some larger communities is
>that people feel free to "correct" others.
>My own view is that such
>correction comes properly from love,
>and you cannot love what you do not
>know. People rightly are not going
>to take such criticism. I wouldn't.

As evidenced when the author tried to pass on the "favor."
But in the end, he did find a way to do it: by writing an
impersonal article. Many people prefer to correct themselves
in private rather than being "found out" in their mistake by
another person, [...]41_2May200719:48:27-0500jrmoran@UCHICAGO.EDU 3606 107 44_Re: learning tefilla (was jewish curriculum)12_Rena Weisman19_renaweisman@COX.NET30_Wed, 2 May 2007 18:15:53 -0700338_iso-8859-1 I will also look into the recommended CDs...thanks! Re: "A
> New Day"... I assume it's broken up into tracks for each
> tefilla? So we could choose to play either the whole CD or
> just a few tefillot?
>

Yes, it is broken down into tracks, if memory serves me correctly, I think
there are 26 in all. [...]40_2May200718:15:53-0700renaweisman@COX.NET 3714 78 25_Re: "re" learning tefilla18_Benjamin H Dickman27_bdickman@ALCATEL-LUCENT.COM30_Wed, 2 May 2007 21:21:29 -0400352_UTF-8 bs'd

It would have been more productive, perhaps, if the writer
had spoken with his shul Rav about what he learned, and then
told him that he had heard men in shul saying it v'aw-HAV-taw.
Then the Rav could decide if it was worth making a general
piece of advice to everyone, or if the Rav should approach
individuals. [...]48_2May200721:21:29-0400bdickman@ALCATEL-LUCENT.COM 3793 48 44_Re: learning tefilla (was jewish curriculum)13_Sharon Brooks23_Sharonajb@SBCGLOBAL.NET30_Wed, 2 May 2007 20:29:14 -0700550_iso-8859-1 > Also, what child's siddur do people like (and please say
> what you like about it)? I have been mostly unimpressed by
> the ones I've seen, but my Big Project to make my own for my
> son got half-completed and set aside like so many other well-
> intentioned projects I've begun (like his baby book! sigh.)
> In an ideal world, I would like one that follows the order
> of the service, not jumping from motzi to Shema to rainbows
> to Adon Olam. Also, I'd rather it not include
> anything "wrong" that he'll [...]44_2May200720:29:14-0700Sharonajb@SBCGLOBAL.NET 3842 70 25_Re: "re" learning tefilla14_Hadas laureano20_hadasl@SBCGLOBAL.NET30_Wed, 2 May 2007 23:31:00 -0700606_iso-8859-1 Is there anyone who is homeschooling girls around
10-14 years of age? any in los angeles area by
chance?? all the best, Hadas
--- Jennifer Moran wrote:

> Bill B. wrote:
> >Finally one of the problems I perceive
> >in some larger communities is
> >that people feel free to "correct" others.
> >My own view is that such
> >correction comes properly from love,
> >and you cannot love what you do not
> >know. People rightly are not going
> >to take such criticism. I wouldn't.
>
> As evidenced when the author tried to pass [...]41_2May200723:31:00-0700hadasl@SBCGLOBAL.NET 3913 41 15_children's book8_cillakat18_cillakat@GMAIL.COM30_Thu, 3 May 2007 14:59:33 -0230543_ISO-8859-1 This new children's book was written and illustrated by two parents in
our local community. Thought I'd share.

;)
k

www.allthatwesee.com

<Why are the flowers so beautiful?

Children are innately curious about Hashem (G-d) and All That We See,
Say, and Do will answer a young child's questions with rhythm and
whimsical paint strokes. Children will enjoy reading along as they
learn about beauty, love, kindness, and being thankful for all that
Hashem provides. [...]39_3May200714:59:33-0230cillakat@GMAIL.COM 3955 58 47_CORRECTING OTHERS--RESPONSE TO Ben and Jennifer16_Russell J Hendel17_rjhendel@JUNO.COM30_Thu, 3 May 2007 21:46:30 -0400447_us-ascii Hi
Ben brought up the issue of correcting people when they pray. Many people
think that it is legitimate to correct people who make mistakes.

Many people are therefore shocked at the statement of the Bais Chadash (A
major source of Jewish law) that EVEN in leining one should not correct
EVEN blatant mistakes. He learns this from an explicit play on words in
Shir Hashirm Rabbah (The midrash on Song of Songs) [...]38_3May200721:46:30-0400rjhendel@JUNO.COM 4014 140 26_re; math for little people0_17_RENALEVIN@AOL.COM28_Fri, 4 May 2007 00:23:17 EDT642_US-ASCII In a message dated 5/2/07 2:02:01 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
LISTSERV@SHAMASH.ORG writes:

> I recommend Sigapore, but I would supplement it with lots of =
> maniplatives, and more review and practice if needed.
>

We like Developmental Mathematics, available from Rainbow Resource. I am
using this now with my 5.5 yod, mostly because I had it in the house from the
older ones. We also have some Miquon math in the house, manipulatives intensive,
makes a nice counterpoint. Also, we have something called Making Math
Meaningful, manipulative intensive, somewhere in between the 2 other programs. [...]36_4May200700:23:17EDTRENALEVIN@AOL.COM 4155 177 30_Re: re; math for little people14_Malkie Swidler18_malkie18@GMAIL.COM30_Fri, 4 May 2007 14:36:37 +0300327_ISO-8859-1 That number line brought back some wonderful memories of the times that ds
and I put a number line on the porch tiles and he jumped up and down
answering problems. :) Now we play a game that he has to answer
multiplication problems, and then he can advance a square, while trying to
beat the clock. [...]39_4May200714:36:37+0300malkie18@GMAIL.COM 4333 55 44_Teaching Textbooks for pre-algebra & algebra14_Malkie Swidler18_malkie18@GMAIL.COM30_Sun, 6 May 2007 16:19:01 +0300437_ISO-8859-1 Avivah recently mentioned that she uses Teaching Textbooks, and then I saw
that the Sonlight curriculum dropped all their other high school math
programs in favor of TT.

So, for everyone who uses TT, what do you think of it? What ages children
are using it? Is it suitable for younger children (pre-alg for age 10 or
so)? Do you need the CD-Roms, because these books are pricey enough without
them? [...]39_6May200716:19:01+0300malkie18@GMAIL.COM 4389 24 16_Hebrew computing6_Zohari20_najova@EARTHLINK.NET30_Tue, 1 May 2007 15:01:09 -0600491_US-ASCII Can anyone advise me on how to use microsoft word (for mac) with Hebrew? I
cannot figure out how to get the vowels under the letters.

Thanks!

Shoshana Z.

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The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by
Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org,
a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and
an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...]41_1May200715:01:09-0600najova@EARTHLINK.NET 4414 31 24_Limiting fiction reading6_Zohari20_najova@EARTHLINK.NET30_Tue, 1 May 2007 15:04:51 -0600494_US-ASCII Let me start by saying that what I am about to write may not fly with many
of you, but I am curious to hear others' thoughts on this subject.

I would like to know if anyone has concerns about the amount of non-Jewish
fiction that their children read and how they have dealt with this at
various ages or with boys vs girls. My oldest is just 8 and we very much
limit his fiction intake for several reasons. I will be more specific if
the conversation ensues. [...]41_1May200715:04:51-0600najova@EARTHLINK.NET 4446 26 19_Re: children's book8_cillakat18_cillakat@GMAIL.COM30_Thu, 3 May 2007 21:43:03 -0230540_ISO-8859-1 It would help if I had the link typed correctly.

www.allthatwesee.com

kul tov,
k

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For other options go to: http://listserv.SHAMASH.ORG/39_3May200721:43:03-0230cillakat@GMAIL.COM 4473 68 9_Re: math?0_17_RENALEVIN@AOL.COM28_Sun, 6 May 2007 10:40:05 EDT705_US-ASCII In a message dated 5/5/07 2:01:39 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
LISTSERV@SHAMASH.ORG writes:

> (they aren't homeschoolers, my bil just uses "Cheaper by
> the Dozen" as a parenting guide).
>

ALL parents are homeschoolers, some just outsource more! :)

Rena in Baltimore

**************************************
See what's free at
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The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by
Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org,
a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and
an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...]36_6May200710:40:05EDTRENALEVIN@AOL.COM 4542 71 48_Re: Teaching Textbooks for pre-algebra & algebra13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM30_Sun, 6 May 2007 08:17:35 -0700415_iso-8859-1 I'm planning to get pre-algebra for my daughter going into seventh grade next year, who is finishing up Singapore 6B. After looking at the sample lessons and the table of contents, I'm concerned that it will be too easy for her. However, I don't want to put her straight into algebra and think that even if it isn't super challenging, it will give her a good year of review before starting algebra. [...]43_6May200708:17:35-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 4614 180 28_Re: Limiting fiction reading5_Kelli33_Natural_Irish_Terrier@COMCAST.NET30_Sun, 6 May 2007 11:10:53 -0400552_iso-8859-1 He do a lot of historical fiction. And unless it is a book that I just can't swallow (i.e. something dark, misogynistic, etc) I say, fine. I do require the assigned reading to be done first and I do tend to "pre-approve books." Though I do not pre-read the books, but I examine them, Google them and find out generally what they are about. My daughter right now really likes the Nancy Drew series, the Royal Diaries, and generally good books. So right now it is easy. She used to hate reading, so I always hesitated to limited what she [...]54_6May200711:10:53-0400Natural_Irish_Terrier@COMCAST.NET 4795 48 28_Re: Limiting fiction reading14_Jay F Shachter16_jay@M5.CHI.IL.US30_Sun, 6 May 2007 11:14:46 -0600538_iso-8859-1 Centuries ago, Nostradamus predicted that Zohari would write on Tue May 1 16:04:51 2007:

>
> Let me start by saying that what I am about to write may not fly with many
> of you, but I am curious to hear others' thoughts on this subject.
>
> I would like to know if anyone has concerns about the amount of non-Jewish
> fiction that their children read and how they have dealt with this at
> various ages or with boys vs girls. My oldest is just 8 and we very much
> limit his fiction intake for [...]37_6May200711:14:46-0600jay@M5.CHI.IL.US 4844 75 28_Re: Limiting fiction reading13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM30_Sun, 6 May 2007 09:46:06 -0700591_iso-8859-1 We do have concerns about this - dh and I were discussing it a couple of weeks ago. He was concerned that our kids will be reading all of this terrific classic non Jewish literature and not enough Jewish reading. A frustration I have with the Jewish frum fiction market is that there is very little that is well written for children. I would gladly choose Jewish books if I could find them. Dd12 recently started reading the adult frummie novels, which aren't terrific reading, but the books for preadolescents and adolescents are so incredibly immature and boring that none [...]43_6May200709:46:06-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 4920 248 28_Re: Limiting fiction reading5_Kelli33_Natural_Irish_Terrier@COMCAST.NET30_Sun, 6 May 2007 14:08:45 -0400618_iso-8859-1 Sorry for the grammatical error, that was supposed to be We do a lot of historical fiction.

Kelli Armes
and the Terriers
----- Original Message -----
From: Kelli
To: TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG
Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2007 11:10 AM
Subject: Re: [TORCH-D] Limiting fiction reading

He do a lot of historical fiction. And unless it is a book that I just can't swallow (i.e. something dark, misogynistic, etc) I say, fine. I do require the assigned reading to be done first and I do tend to "pre-approve books." Though I do not pre-read the books, but I examine them, Google them and [...]54_6May200714:08:45-0400Natural_Irish_Terrier@COMCAST.NET 5169 31 28_Re: Limiting fiction reading10_Sarah Kopp17_svkopp@012.NET.IL30_Sun, 6 May 2007 19:12:24 +0200256_ISO-8859-1 Jay F Shachter wrote:
> This would
> mean, for example, that it is forbidden to read, e.g., an ArtScroll
> biography on Shabbat or Yom Tov, according to Rambam.
>
>
Biographies are not fiction, last time I checked.

Sarah38_6May200719:12:24+0200svkopp@012.NET.IL 5201 58 28_Re: Limiting fiction reading10_Sarah Kopp17_svkopp@012.NET.IL30_Sun, 6 May 2007 19:11:23 +0200614_ISO-8859-1 Avivah Werner wrote:
> My feeling is this: if the kids are reading good quality non Jewish
> literature that espouses good values, I'm fine with that. That's why
> I so strongly support the kids reading older classic literature,
> because it's well written, clean, and has positive messages. (See
> past book list recommendations for good literature for different ages.)
>
This pretty much sums it up for us too. In fact, I personally generally
prefer to read fiction written before 1940, or at least 1960. I find it
deals more with the human, spiritual and moral issues [...]38_6May200719:11:23+0200svkopp@012.NET.IL 5260 49 28_Re: Limiting fiction reading0_27_billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET30_Sun, 6 May 2007 13:54:46 -0500685_ISO-8859-1 But I think the ArtScrolls come close....
Bill Bernstein

>
> From: Sarah Kopp
> Date: 2007/05/06 Sun PM 12:12:24 EST
> To: TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG
> Subject: Re: [TORCH-D] Limiting fiction reading
>
> Jay F Shachter wrote:
> > This would
> > mean, for example, that it is forbidden to read, e.g., an ArtScroll
> > biography on Shabbat or Yom Tov, according to Rambam.
> >
> >
> Biographies are not fiction, last time I checked.
>
> Sarah
>
> --
> Tsfat, Israel
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by
[...]48_6May200713:54:46-0500billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET 5310 74 40_more on high school math - Singapore NEM13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM30_Sun, 6 May 2007 12:52:02 -0700493_iso-8859-1 >>I was wondering why people don't continue with Singapore for 7th grade
math (or algebra?). My oldest HSer is currently 10 and she is currently
finishing 6A of Singapore so it is a concern for me. Is Singapore only
supposed to be good until that point (Algebra) or are there just much
better things out for Algebra. It seems to me like you have done a lot
of the research already, and your HS approach is similar to mine so
I'm interested in your opinion.<< [...]43_6May200712:52:02-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 5385 80 28_Re: Limiting fiction reading13_Sharon Brooks23_Sharonajb@SBCGLOBAL.NET30_Sun, 6 May 2007 17:36:29 -0700606_iso-8859-1 When was there a book list? I went back through my old messages and seem to be missing it. Definitely a must see for me.

thanks

sharon
----- Original Message -----
From: Avivah Werner
(See past book list recommendations for good literature for different ages.)

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The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by
Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org,
a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and
an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...]44_6May200717:36:29-0700Sharonajb@SBCGLOBAL.NET 5466 35 20_Re: perils of praise10_Sarah Kopp17_svkopp@012.NET.IL30_Mon, 7 May 2007 08:49:32 +0200385_ISO-8859-1 Here is a link to an article I found very, very interesting, about the
potential detrimental effects of general praise. It certainly resonates
with difficulties we've had with our kids in the past and gave me some
new tools to use at home and in home schooling.

http://nymag. com/news/ features/ 27840/


Sarah38_7May200708:49:32+0200svkopp@012.NET.IL 5502 42 29_Jewish community search/dream13_Sharon Brooks23_Sharonajb@SBCGLOBAL.NET30_Mon, 7 May 2007 05:57:22 -0700561_iso-8859-1 This is an off-subject, but I can't be the only one thinking about it, so
I'll throw it out there. We can't continue to live in LA. We can't afford
it, and although H' has been good to me here, and the Jewish community
offers extensive poossibilities, I can't say it's my dream city. So in the
background, when we have a spare hour, we're looking to relocate.
Ultimately we have to go where we can afford to live and hopefully get out
of the red, where my husband gets another good job, and life is more
affordable. It will [...]44_7May200705:57:22-0700Sharonajb@SBCGLOBAL.NET 5545 81 33_Re: Jewish community search/dream14_Bill Bernstein27_billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET30_Mon, 7 May 2007 08:33:19 -0500651_ISO-8859-1 <wise, kind, healthy jewish kinderlach?>>

That place is your own home.
If you're talking about a great place to live that has all those things
you mention, good luck. Unfortunately, for whatever reason, Orthodox
Jews seem to pick the lousiest places to live: NY, LA, Chicago, Detroit,
Philadelphia. These aren't tops for quality of life overall, not in my
book anyway. Apologies to people on the list living there.
But even in smaller communities there is an unfailing tendency to pick
the worst places. The two main Jewish communities [...]48_7May200708:33:19-0500billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET 5627 101 33_Re: Jewish community search/dream14_Malkie Swidler18_malkie18@GMAIL.COM30_Mon, 7 May 2007 16:39:24 +0300590_ISO-8859-1 Sharon, you're describing Tzfat.

Malkie

On 5/7/07, Sharon Brooks wrote:
>
> This is an off-subject, but I can't be the only one thinking about it, so
> I'll throw it out there. We can't continue to live in LA. We can't
> afford
> it, and although H' has been good to me here, and the Jewish community
> offers extensive poossibilities, I can't say it's my dream city. So in
> the
> background, when we have a spare hour, we're looking to relocate.
> Ultimately we have to go where we can afford to live and [...]39_7May200716:39:24+0300malkie18@GMAIL.COM 5729 84 33_Re: Jewish community search/dream14_Malkie Swidler18_malkie18@GMAIL.COM30_Mon, 7 May 2007 16:52:53 +0300505_ISO-8859-1 Bill wrote:

"That place is your own home."

He's right.

Bill also wrote:

"Someone here will mention Israel. I've never been but descriptions of
life there leave me less than excited to live in basically a socialist
country with theocratic pretensions."

He's right (though understating the case, actually-- the socialism and
religious pretension are just the tip of the iceberg).
But that's not why any of us who live in Israel live in Israel. [...]39_7May200716:52:53+0300malkie18@GMAIL.COM 5814 100 45_Re: Jewish community search/dream (2.81/4.00)14_Rebecca Harper22_hudabecca@RAINMALL.COM30_Mon, 7 May 2007 10:20:10 -0400287_ISO-8859-1 Well, no one but you can tell you which place is good for your family, but, I'll tell you a bit about Rochester, NY and you can make your own conclusions. Keep in mind that anywhere you go there are pluses and minuses, and you have to choose the best from what there is. [...]43_7May200710:20:10-0400hudabecca@RAINMALL.COM 5915 48 33_Re: Jewish community search/dream10_Sarah Kopp17_svkopp@012.NET.IL30_Mon, 7 May 2007 18:19:26 +0200114_ISO-8859-1 Oh thanks, Malkie. I live in Tsfat and all I could do was praise Seattle
nostalgically!

Sarah38_7May200718:19:26+0200svkopp@012.NET.IL 5964 57 33_Re: Jewish community search/dream10_Sarah Kopp17_svkopp@012.NET.IL30_Mon, 7 May 2007 18:17:52 +0200574_ISO-8859-1 Sharon Brooks wrote:
>
> So here's my question. Does anyone out there know where this place is
> on this earth in the here and now? Or maybe more realistically, does
> anyone live in a place they love and think comes close to this
> description?

I loved Seattle, and would not have moved except we thought it would be
a good idea to make aliyah. I think housing is pretty expensive there
but the general quality of life is, IMHO, fabulous. There are 4 orthodox
communities in various parts of the city and suburbs, and lots of [...]38_7May200718:17:52+0200svkopp@012.NET.IL 6022 65 33_Re: Jewish community search/dream16_Brenda Goldstein19_lioness31@CA.RR.COM30_Mon, 7 May 2007 12:53:36 -0700558_ISO-8859-1 Sharon I *hear* you! We live in LA, too, and are looking to relocate so
that we can buy an affordable house. We were recently in Atlanta and
*loved* it--the house prices are decent, the community is very friendly
and large, it's beautiful (like the forest was paved with streets and
built up with houses), it doesn't get too cold in winter, there are
several kosher restaurants (as well as a great health-food store run by
a frum Jew). I'd be interested to know what you come up with on your search.
Good luck,
Brenda [...]40_7May200712:53:36-0700lioness31@CA.RR.COM 6088 39 33_Re: Jewish community search/dream14_Jennifer Moran20_jrmoran@UCHICAGO.EDU30_Mon, 7 May 2007 15:45:23 -0500631_us-ascii We're partial to university communities, some of which are
located in beautiful places. You probably wouldn't find a
bona fide Chassidish community in one of these, but there's
often a thriving Chabad house, as well as a Hillel House
(with or without a frum minyan -- you always have to check)
and sometimes additional shuls. You do generally sacrifice
other ammeneties such as restaurants, unless you're in a
major metro area. In exchange, you get to live among people
who are actually thinking about what it means to lead a good
Jewish life, who haven't (yet) stopped asking the *big
[...]41_7May200715:45:23-0500jrmoran@UCHICAGO.EDU 6128 171 33_Re: Jewish community search/dream0_21_YiddisheMameh@AOL.COM28_Mon, 7 May 2007 18:06:42 EDT700_US-ASCII I personally really like Rhawnhurst in Northeast Philadelphia (PA). very
reasonable home prices, an Orthodox community, walkable neighborhoods, you can
actually do without a car here too!

For more info: _http://www.jcor.org_ (http://www.jcor.org)

We moved here last year from New jersey (though we were originally from
South Philadelphia.) I wish we'd moved here years ago!

Chana

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

'The treatment of Roma/Gypsies has become a litmus test for a humane
society. Their widespread suffering is now one of Europe's most pressing-but most
neglected-human rights issues.'
Margaret Brearley [...]40_7May200718:06:42EDTYiddisheMameh@AOL.COM 6300 216 33_Re: Jewish community search/dream15_lmcohn@juno.com15_lmcohn@JUNO.COM28_Tue, 8 May 2007 00:34:38 GMT611_- I hear Atlanta is great, too, and up and coming. I cannot honestly say that Detroit is an ideal place to be a frum Jew. Quite the opposite, in fact!

Lynne Meredith Schreiber
lmcohn@juno.com

-- Brenda Goldstein wrote:
Sharon I *hear* you! We live in LA, too, and are looking to relocate so
that we can buy an affordable house. We were recently in Atlanta and
*loved* it--the house prices are decent, the community is very friendly
and large, it's beautiful (like the forest was paved with streets and
built up with houses), it doesn't get too cold in [...]34_8May200700:34:38GMTlmcohn@JUNO.COM 6517 65 33_Re: Jewish community search/dream13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM30_Mon, 7 May 2007 19:12:11 -0700556_iso-8859-1 I've been musing to myself as I read the responses to this question. I honestly think that anywhere can be a great place to live, if it has the things that are important to you. But there's no one city that will have it all.

I loved Seattle, but I wouldn't say it's a good place to raise Jewish children. (Sarah, when did you leave? We left five years ago after two years in Capitol Hill.) I agree with everything written about it (except the rain - Baltimore has more rain than Seattle, it's just concentrated into heavier rains in [...]43_7May200719:12:11-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 6583 51 33_Re: Jewish community search/dream10_Sarah Kopp17_svkopp@012.NET.IL30_Tue, 8 May 2007 07:50:51 +0200463_ISO-8859-1 Avivah Werner wrote:
> I loved Seattle, but I wouldn't say it's a good place to raise Jewish
> children. (Sarah, when did you leave? We left five years ago after
> two years in Capitol Hill.) I agree with everything written about it
> (except the rain - Baltimore has more rain than Seattle, it's just
> concentrated into heavier rains in shorter times), but it's a very
> liberal city, with all that comes along with that.
> [...]38_8May200707:50:51+0200svkopp@012.NET.IL 6635 218 33_Re: Jewish community search/dream10_Larry Beck19_larry@BECKFORCE.COM30_Tue, 8 May 2007 17:00:22 -0400550_US-ASCII Sharon,

I will second what Brenda and Lynne said about Atlanta. We have been in
Atlanta since 1993 and we really like it a lot.

When we first looked into moving here I was visiting on a business trip. I
called my wife and told her there was something wrong with the Orthodox
community. First off, the area is very green with lots of trees. The crime
rate is very low in our area. And the people were very friendly and nice,
both the Goyim and the Jews. The cost of housing is less than 1/2 to 1/3 of
the [...]40_8May200717:00:22-0400larry@BECKFORCE.COM 6854 219 33_Re: Jewish community search/dream16_Brenda Goldstein19_lioness31@CA.RR.COM30_Tue, 8 May 2007 14:49:22 -0700552_us-ascii Atlanta is *least* 1/3 the cost of LA houses (in frum areas) today.
(Well, the Valley is about $100 less than the city.)

Larry Beck wrote:

> Sharon,
>
> I will second what Brenda and Lynne said about Atlanta. We have been
> in Atlanta since 1993 and we really like it a lot.
>
> When we first looked into moving here I was visiting on a business
> trip. I called my wife and told her there was something wrong with the
> Orthodox community. First off, the area is very green with lots of
> trees. [...]40_8May200714:49:22-0700lioness31@CA.RR.COM 7074 97 33_Re: Jewish community search/dream16_ZagorskyGoldberg28_zagorskygoldberg@VERIZON.NET30_Tue, 8 May 2007 22:53:17 -0400576_iso-8859-1 Well, I can't answer the original poster who is looking for a "dream community", however, if anyone has a dream to move to the Boston area, please do consider my community of Malden.

We are only a few miles from Boston, but the housing prices are significantly cheaper than Boston (still rather expensive compared to much of the rest of the US, however), my shul provides loans to help families pay for a down-payment on a house here, the shul give GENEROUS subsidies for day school tuitions and Jewish summer camps, and there is a van to take the kids [...]49_8May200722:53:17-0400zagorskygoldberg@VERIZON.NET 7172 42 26_Environmental lesson plans6_Shayna17_ssheiny@YAHOO.COM30_Wed, 9 May 2007 06:50:58 -0700479_iso-8859-1 I've been thinking of putting together some sort of
environmental lesson plans for the summer - something
somewhat informal and loose, but that would teach the
kids about recycling, environmental waste, pollution,
etc. Of course, this would include field trips, etc.

Anyone done anything like this or have suggestions for
trips, lesson plans, etc.?

I would love suggestions on how to incorporate a
Jewish-bent onto the theme, too. [...]38_9May200706:50:58-0700ssheiny@YAHOO.COM 7215 91 30_Re: Environmental lesson plans14_Malkie Swidler18_malkie18@GMAIL.COM30_Wed, 9 May 2007 17:20:57 +0300703_ISO-8859-1 For a Jewish Theme to environmentalism, try Canfei Nesharim
http://canfeinesharim.org/index.shtml

A friend of mine from college, Evonne, is the director.

Malkie

On 5/9/07, Shayna wrote:
>
> I've been thinking of putting together some sort of
> environmental lesson plans for the summer - something
> somewhat informal and loose, but that would teach the
> kids about recycling, environmental waste, pollution,
> etc. Of course, this would include field trips, etc.
>
> Anyone done anything like this or have suggestions for
> trips, lesson plans, etc.?
>
> I would love suggestions on how to incorporate a
[...]39_9May200717:20:57+0300malkie18@GMAIL.COM 7307 58 22_Shavuous cake activity13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM30_Wed, 9 May 2007 08:58:07 -0700586_iso-8859-1 I haven't tried this Bible cake recipe, so I can't vouch for it, but am planning to do it together with my kids. I think it will be a fun Torah learning opportunity.

http://learn.jtsa.edu/topics/kids/shavuot_together/biblecake.shtml

Have fun!

Avivah in Baltimore

Chèri Nursing Pillows
“Bringing mothers and babies closer together”
www.cheri-nursing-pillows.com
www.parentingreflections.blogspot.com

---------------------------------
Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?
Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. [...]43_9May200708:58:07-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 7366 29 26_environmental lesson plans15_Michelle Miller25_michelletamar@HOTMAIL.COM30_Wed, 9 May 2007 09:43:25 -0700732_- There is a great book:

Fact, Not Fear: Teaching Children About the Environment

Amazon.com has it. It has no agenda except truth.

michelle

_________________________________________________________________
Like the way Microsoft Office Outlook works? You’ll love Windows Live
Hotmail.
http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_outlook_0507

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by
Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org,
a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and
an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...]46_9May200709:43:25-0700michelletamar@HOTMAIL.COM 7396 68 28_Re: Limiting fiction reading6_Shayna17_ssheiny@YAHOO.COM30_Wed, 9 May 2007 11:06:47 -0700584_iso-8859-1 Avivah and others,

What would make a good quality YA Jewish fiction book?
If there is a market, I'm sure there are writers out
there. However, having not grown up in a frum world,
I can only recall what YA books I read - most of which
I would NOT encourage my children to read. Even the
Xian YA books that I read (my dad's religious mother
passed them on to me in the hopes that they would help
me "find Jesus") had things that probably wouldn't be
appropriate in a frum environment - boyfriends, bad
people, awkward situations, etc. [...]38_9May200711:06:47-0700ssheiny@YAHOO.COM 7465 47 28_Re: Limiting fiction reading14_Jennifer Moran20_jrmoran@UCHICAGO.EDU30_Wed, 9 May 2007 14:53:31 -0500490_us-ascii Shayna asked:
>What would make a good quality YA Jewish fiction book? [...]
>So how would you write a good YA Jewish fiction book
>that is both interesting and appropriate?

It was never a category that interested me, personally. My
impression, even as a pre-teen, was that YA was where they
put all the books on teen dating and superficial
relationships. As for "maturation theme" literature, there
are "real" authors who have done it much better. [...]41_9May200714:53:31-0500jrmoran@UCHICAGO.EDU 7513 137 33_Re: Jewish community search/dream14_Hadas laureano20_hadasl@SBCGLOBAL.NET30_Wed, 9 May 2007 10:42:45 -0700575_iso-8859-1 It really sounds like a wonderful place to live....Id
love to know more about it....Hadas
--- Larry Beck wrote:

> Sharon,
>
> I will second what Brenda and Lynne said about
> Atlanta. We have been in
> Atlanta since 1993 and we really like it a lot.
>
> When we first looked into moving here I was visiting
> on a business trip. I
> called my wife and told her there was something
> wrong with the Orthodox
> community. First off, the area is very green with
> lots of trees. The crime
> [...]41_9May200710:42:45-0700hadasl@SBCGLOBAL.NET 7651 190 28_Re: Limiting fiction reading16_Brenda Goldstein19_lioness31@CA.RR.COM30_Wed, 9 May 2007 12:54:06 -0700583_us-ascii Above all, have it carefully proofread! So many frum publications have
enough typos in them to drive the journalist in me crazy!
Brenda

Shayna wrote:

>Avivah and others,
>
>What would make a good quality YA Jewish fiction book?
> If there is a market, I'm sure there are writers out
>there. However, having not grown up in a frum world,
>I can only recall what YA books I read - most of which
>I would NOT encourage my children to read. Even the
>Xian YA books that I read (my dad's religious mother
>passed them on to me in [...]40_9May200712:54:06-0700lioness31@CA.RR.COM 7842 143 28_Re: Limiting fiction reading14_Malkie Swidler18_malkie18@GMAIL.COM30_Wed, 9 May 2007 23:12:40 +0300478_ISO-8859-1 The same characteristics that make any book compelling also make a Jewish
market YA book compelling. A strong plot, a sympathetic (but not
goody-goody) main character, well fleshed out characters and developing
relationships, and an excellent, even lyrical writing style. For the young
adult audience, it should be descriptive but not too graphic. And obviously
it should contain Jewish themes that are authentic-- no artscroll
biographies. ;) [...]39_9May200723:12:40+0300malkie18@GMAIL.COM 7986 98 30_Re: Environmental lesson plans13_Barbara Mazor19_barbmazor@YAHOO.COM30_Wed, 9 May 2007 17:08:27 -0700512_iso-8859-1 Check out Coalition on the Envioronment and Jewish Living
http://www.coejl.org/index.php

and

Teva Learning Center
http://www.tevacenter.org/

Barbara

Shayna wrote: I've been thinking of putting together some sort of
environmental lesson plans for the summer - something
somewhat informal and loose, but that would teach the
kids about recycling, environmental waste, pollution,
etc. Of course, this would include field trips, etc. [...]40_9May200717:08:27-0700barbmazor@YAHOO.COM 8085 76 15_Teaching Tznius13_Sharon Brooks23_Sharonajb@SBCGLOBAL.NET30_Wed, 9 May 2007 18:30:35 -0700428_iso-8859-1 I'd like to get some thoughts about teaching my three year old daughter about tzniut now and as she gets older. Of course, we try to start with setting an example, and with telling her what she should be doing. But I'd like to expand with stories, songs, a good explanation. I don't feel like I've got what to tell her to make it an endearing mitzvah, quite yet, but I know tha's what they teach in the schools. [...]44_9May200718:30:35-0700Sharonajb@SBCGLOBAL.NET 8162 64 19_Re: Teaching Tznius13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM30_Wed, 9 May 2007 18:50:44 -0700552_iso-8859-1 I don't teach anything about tznius, which might not be very helpful for you. :) I think it's a matter of personal example and kids sense your underlying expectations. My kids are quite modest, but not because I actively taught them to be. It's just something that is understood - we treat the body with respect and part of that is dressing respectfully. I don't tell my kids what they should be doing - I buy their clothes and that's what they wear. And I buy what I feel is appropriate, regardless of what is being sold on the market [...]43_9May200718:50:44-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 8227 106 28_Re: Limiting fiction reading13_Sharon Brooks23_Sharonajb@SBCGLOBAL.NET30_Wed, 9 May 2007 18:51:54 -0700528_iso-8859-1 When my teenage step-daughter is here, she tends to prefer certain themes
that are available in the frum market. There are never enough for a
bookworm, so she rereads some of them, but we're always looking for more.
Her mother only allows kosher reading, so there are young adult materials in
these areas.

1. high school girls at school or camp dealing with life issues like money,
family problems, friendship struggles, identity and self-image... but with
good middos as a key element. [...]44_9May200718:51:54-0700Sharonajb@SBCGLOBAL.NET 8334 168 47_Re: Jewish community search/dream (long post!!)12_Yael Resnick22_njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM31_Thu, 10 May 2007 00:11:28 -0400514_us-ascii I live in Sharon, Massachusetts (halfway between Boston and
Providence) and love it here. It's a very small town, but it's about
70% Jewish -- diversely Jewish, with a reasonably large modern
orthodox population (2 shuls & a preschool/elementary school), small
Chabad community (1 shuls & a preschool/elementary school), a
Carlebach minyan, and many other Jewish folks of all kinds. The
non-Jewish population is pretty diverse, too, but all very middle- to
upper-class suburban. [...]44_10May200700:11:28-0400njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM 8503 81 28_Re: Limiting fiction reading10_Sarah Kopp17_svkopp@012.NET.IL31_Thu, 10 May 2007 08:02:58 +0200365_ISO-8859-1 Actually, the fault I find with most frum fiction, for any age, is that
it is so constrained not to have any characters or content that does not
conform entirely to the frum ideal, they are excruciatingly boring.
There is a lack of believability and no tension to carry a story along.
That's why we prefer good clean secular literature. [...]39_10May200708:02:58+0200svkopp@012.NET.IL 8585 72 19_Re: Teaching Tznius10_Sarah Kopp17_svkopp@012.NET.IL31_Thu, 10 May 2007 08:23:13 +0200543_ISO-8859-1 Sharon Brooks wrote:
> I'd like to get some thoughts about teaching my three year old
> daughter about tzniut now and as she gets older. Of course, we try to
> start with setting an example, and with telling her what she should be
> doing. But I'd like to expand with stories, songs, a good
> explanation. I don't feel like I've got what to tell her to make it
> an endearing mitzvah, quite yet, but I know tha's what they teach in
> the schools.
>
> Any thoughts?
>
I don't know why you think [...]39_10May200708:23:13+0200svkopp@012.NET.IL 8658 259 19_Re: Teaching Tznius14_Malkie Swidler18_malkie18@GMAIL.COM31_Thu, 10 May 2007 11:32:50 +0300573_ISO-8859-1 As a former "product" of the schools you are seeking to emulate, I could not
agree with Avivah more. I remember how my friends and I chafed under their
ridiculous emphasis on how we looked and how we dressed. It was even worse
than the pressure to conform from the outside culture, and felt just as
degrading. There was no sense that any of us would *choose* tzniut, so it
had to be shoved down our throats with dress codes, ever more lectures, and
notes home. Some of us concluded that how we looked must be the most
important mitzvah [...]40_10May200711:32:50+0300malkie18@GMAIL.COM 8918 67 33_Re: Jewish community search/dream13_Sharon Brooks23_Sharonajb@SBCGLOBAL.NET31_Thu, 10 May 2007 02:33:39 -0700524_iso-8859-1 Thank you all for your feedback. It will probably be awhile before we can get it together to relocate, but this discussion was very valuable to us. There were a few nice surprises for me.

sharon

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by
Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org,
a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and
an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...]45_10May200702:33:39-0700Sharonajb@SBCGLOBAL.NET 8986 242 28_Re: Limiting fiction reading15_lmcohn@juno.com15_lmcohn@JUNO.COM29_Thu, 10 May 2007 13:00:09 GMT599_- I know this is not a popular perspective, but I don't believe in limiting what my kids read. Well, actually, I guide them to age-appropriate quality literature and since they're little, I haven't confronted totally inappropriate material, but I can't imagine that at any point I'll limit their exposure to what's out there. For instance, there's a great adolesecent book called Bud, Not Buddy, and I read it with a friend's son when I tutored him in English. My friend read through it and excluded several sections of the book but I personally wouldn't find it inappropriate. There's a whole [...]35_10May200713:00:09GMTlmcohn@JUNO.COM 9229 118 19_Re: Teaching Tznius4_Laya17_tolife18@JUNO.COM29_Thu, 10 May 2007 13:09:08 GMT546_- When my daughter was very small, I asked this same question at a women's shiur. The woman presenting gave the way we dress the Torah as an example. It's our most valuable treasure as Jews. It's dressed in a beautiful cover and given a crown. It's taken out and uncovered with a purpose at the right time. I've tried to teach my daughter and son both that they are treasures. I pray they've gotten that message between the meltdowns and sweet times.
Tzniut is also what you look at and don't look at. At the age of nearly thirteen, I've [...]37_10May200713:09:08GMTtolife18@JUNO.COM 9348 92 19_Re: Teaching Tznius13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Thu, 10 May 2007 06:41:28 -0700576_iso-8859-1 >>She told me that she
felt that all the haredim care more about how thick her stockings are
and if her top button is buttoned than what she is feeling inside. <<

Well, as someone speaking from the charedi camp, I'd like to think that this isn't accurate. But I think that to a very unfortunate degree (and this is found in all segments of society), we do judge people based on their externals. Too often, people are so uncomfortable with someone who is dressed outside of their comfort zone that they can't see past the externals, and reject the [...]44_10May200706:41:28-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 9441 79 28_Re: Limiting fiction reading13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Thu, 10 May 2007 07:28:24 -0700372_iso-8859-1 >>Actually, the fault I find with most frum fiction, for any age, is that
it is so constrained not to have any characters or content that does
not
conform entirely to the frum ideal, they are excruciatingly boring.
There is a lack of believability and no tension to carry a story along.
That's why we prefer good clean secular literature.<< [...]44_10May200707:28:24-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 9521 142 26_Re: Shavuous cake activity14_Malkie Swidler18_malkie18@GMAIL.COM30_Wed, 9 May 2007 19:31:30 +0300693_ISO-8859-1 And then you can decorate it as Har Sinai with nasturtium flowers, with
little graham cracker "luchot habrit" at the top (with chocolate
commandments painted on). Extra credit for making caramel shard "lightning".
And a marzipan am yisrael around the bottom. lol

Malkie

On 5/9/07, Avivah Werner wrote:
>
> I haven't tried this Bible cake recipe, so I can't vouch for it, but am
> planning to do it together with my kids. I think it will be a fun Torah
> learning opportunity.
>
> http://learn.jtsa.edu/topics/kids/shavuot_together/biblecake.shtml
>
> Have fun!
>
> Avivah in Baltimore
>
>
[...]39_9May200719:31:30+0300malkie18@GMAIL.COM 9664 24 47_Re: Jewish community search/dream (long post!!)14_Evelyn Krieger18_ek2000@COMCAST.NET30_Wed, 9 May 2007 18:10:37 -0400484_iso-8859-1 I agree with everything Yael said. I've been living in Sharon for 2 years
and I love it, too. (Yael, maybe you should go into real estate!)
Evelyn

>

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by
Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org,
a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and
an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...]39_9May200718:10:37-0400ek2000@COMCAST.NET 9689 150 28_Re: Limiting fiction reading13_Sharon Brooks23_Sharonajb@SBCGLOBAL.NET31_Thu, 10 May 2007 08:15:45 -0700439_iso-8859-1 Lynne,

We have the same age/gender mix of kids!
I've actually been seeking out good read-alouds. Does your 3 yo do well with complex literature? Mine seems okay with something like savta simcha, and she sort of listened to Stuart Little on tape with her brother, but I haven't ventured further than that in the age category yet. It's just hard to find the opportunity to read to one without the others.
Sharon [...]45_10May200708:15:45-0700Sharonajb@SBCGLOBAL.NET 9840 75 28_Re: Limiting fiction reading13_Sharon Brooks23_Sharonajb@SBCGLOBAL.NET31_Thu, 10 May 2007 08:38:00 -0700411_iso-8859-1 Adult reading for homeschooling parents is also of interest to me.

Lately I've been enjoying Homeschooling and the Voyage of Self-Discovery by David H. Albert. I find it inspiring and refreshing after so many intro books that seem to be covering the same ground with little new addition.

Does anyone have any good recommendations (jewish or secular) for the homeschooling parents? [...]45_10May200708:38:00-0700Sharonajb@SBCGLOBAL.NET 9916 106 28_Re: Limiting fiction reading16_Brenda Goldstein19_lioness31@CA.RR.COM31_Thu, 10 May 2007 10:16:49 -0700695_us-ascii "A Call to Brilliance" by Resa Steindel Brown.

Sharon Brooks wrote:

> Adult reading for homeschooling parents is also of interest to me.
>
> Lately I've been enjoying Homeschooling and the Voyage of
> Self-Discovery by David H. Albert. I find it inspiring and refreshing
> after so many intro books that seem to be covering the same ground
> with little new addition.
>
> Does anyone have any good recommendations (jewish or secular) for the
> homeschooling parents?
>
> Sharon
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network
> [...]41_10May200710:16:49-0700lioness31@CA.RR.COM 10023 41 16_limiting fiction15_Michelle Miller25_michelletamar@HOTMAIL.COM31_Thu, 10 May 2007 10:48:29 -0700545_- I agree with Aviva that when children get past 10, you will be shocked at
what is considered normal. We had a librarian at the local Jewish (!)
library recommend a book to my son (12) and he came out of his room, handed
it to me, and said it had sex in it. Last time we ever take anyone else's
recommendation. It's my job to know what they read and since I don't have
time, or the inclination to pre-read everything I use classics and reading
lists I trust. What is considered "normal" in our culture can damage the
[...]47_10May200710:48:29-0700michelletamar@HOTMAIL.COM 10065 253 26_Re: Shavuous cake activity13_Sharon Brooks23_Sharonajb@SBCGLOBAL.NET31_Thu, 10 May 2007 11:16:48 -0700659_iso-8859-1 I would like it with more marzipan, so I think the har/cake has to be sitting on the heads of the marzipan am yisroel. chocolate covered, perhaps?

musing as I hungrily await Shavuos,
sharon
----- Original Message -----
From: Malkie Swidler
To: TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG
Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2007 9:31 AM
Subject: Re: [TORCH-D] Shavuous cake activity

And then you can decorate it as Har Sinai with nasturtium flowers, with little graham cracker "luchot habrit" at the top (with chocolate commandments painted on). Extra credit for making caramel shard "lightning". And a marzipan am yisrael around the bottom. lol [...]45_10May200711:16:48-0700Sharonajb@SBCGLOBAL.NET 10319 153 28_Re: Limiting fiction reading15_lmcohn@juno.com15_lmcohn@JUNO.COM29_Thu, 10 May 2007 19:34:09 GMT555_- Hi Sharon,
My 3.5-year-old listens sometimes when I read Secret Garden to my 5-year-old but I don't know that she LOVES it like he does. Also, she doesn't necessarily get into the discussions we have after reading a chapter. I find that she sometimes likes what I consider to be much more baby-ish books, and it reminds me that 3.5 is after all still a baby! My 5-year-old I think is quite advanced in his tastes, vocabulary and ability to sit. Actually he always has been. We'd read Curious George when he was 1.5 and he'd sit, while we'd fall [...]35_10May200719:34:09GMTlmcohn@JUNO.COM 10473 65 31_was tznius, now modest swimwear13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Thu, 10 May 2007 14:38:40 -0700551_iso-8859-1 Okay, maybe this is a not directly related to the tznis topic, but this is what I'm trying to figure out today, and I thought some of you might have addressed this concern before.

We're getting ready for our annual camping trip (well, we call it annual because that's what it's supposed to be, but somehow it ends up every other year :(). I've been thinking about how to go swimming as a family, if we find a private area (last time we had the beach to ourselves). The kids are all old enough that they don't wear bathing suits [...]44_10May200714:38:40-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 10539 160 35_Re: was tznius, now modest swimwear14_Sigal Gottlieb23_sigalgottlieb@YAHOO.COM31_Thu, 10 May 2007 15:00:19 -0700660_windows-1252 I have npt done this myself, but a friend bought longsleeve swim shirts at http://www.alexandme.com/Children_s_UV_Swim_Shirts_Long_Sleeve_s/25.htm and sewed a long piece of swimsuit material as a simple skirt on a pair of similar swim pants, with some gathers around the legs . . . ----- Original Message ---- From: Avivah Werner To: TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2007 5:38:40 PM Subject: [TORCH-D] was tznius, now modest swimwear Okay, maybe this is a not directly related to the tznis topic, but this is what I'm trying to figure out today, and I thought some of you might have addressed this concern [...]45_10May200715:00:19-0700sigalgottlieb@YAHOO.COM 10700 47 35_Re: was tznius, now modest swimwear14_Jennifer Moran20_jrmoran@UCHICAGO.EDU31_Thu, 10 May 2007 17:21:09 -0500612_us-ascii Avivah wrote:
>In case anyone else is interested, here are a few links for
>modest swimwear:
[....]
http://www.modest-swimwear.net/

I have this swimsuit and love it. It's actually comfortable
to swim in, at least in the cut I have (which I will call --
tongue in cheek -- the Modern Orthodox cut ;-)). I shelled
out the $$ to have it made (they will make the sleeves,
leggings, and skirt any length you want, and you can have
them adjust the neckline as well). The young woman who runs
the company answered my dozens of questions, so I would
certainly email [...]42_10May200717:21:09-0500jrmoran@UCHICAGO.EDU 10748 41 19_Re: modest swimwear12_Yael Resnick22_njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM31_Thu, 10 May 2007 19:10:20 -0400380_us-ascii Lands End has kids' swimsuits that seem to be getting more tznius
every year. They have long-sleeve tops (with high necks), long
shorts/pants to match, and some short swim skirts that maybe you
could add some material to...

Prices are retail but reasonable (and they'll probably go on sale in
the middle of the summer if you can wait until then). [...]44_10May200719:10:20-0400njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM 10790 50 19_Re: modest swimwear17_Rachel Turniansky28_rachelturniansky@HOTMAIL.COM31_Thu, 10 May 2007 20:39:22 -0400531_- >I've been thinking about how to go swimming as a family, if we find a
>private area (last time we >had the beach to ourselves). Do you swim as a
>family and how have you addressed it?

When my family visits my parents we have a similar situation where we often
have a beach to ourselves. I usually don't go swimming with them, so I
don't have the problem of what to wear, but the last time we went I actually
found the time to make a simple tube skirt out of swim suit material. I
didn't go in much [...]50_10May200720:39:22-0400rachelturniansky@HOTMAIL.COM 10841 80 15_modest swimwear14_Evelyn Krieger18_ek2000@COMCAST.NET31_Thu, 10 May 2007 03:40:39 -0400572_iso-8859-1 I like Landsend line of swimwear which also comes with a SPF of 30-50. There are pretty long-sleeved, high necked tops and matching long shorts (on the loose side) which come just above the knee. You could buy them a little larger for a looser fit. They also sell a short skirt that could be worn over the shorts, I suppose. My 9 year old daughter really likes the shirt/shorts combo. It protected at the beach and she felt modest but could still move around comfortably. They are reasonably priced, and you can get certain styles on the overstocks. Sears [...]40_10May200703:40:39-0400ek2000@COMCAST.NET 10922 31 35_Re: was tznius, now modest swimwear8_cillakat18_cillakat@GMAIL.COM31_Fri, 11 May 2007 01:09:29 -0230440_ISO-8859-1 my young girls swim in the long sleeved shirts from nozone.ca. still
working on the bottoms. right now they wear the long lycra swim pants
from another sun protective store.

having gone through many swimshirts for them, I strongly recommend a
lightweight 4 way polyester stretchie material. it's as light and
soft as lycra and nearly as thin but it holds up so so so so so much
better. so much better. [...]40_11May200701:09:29-0230cillakat@GMAIL.COM 10954 41 47_Re: Jewish community search/dream (long post!!)12_Yael Resnick22_njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM31_Fri, 11 May 2007 00:17:21 -0400456_us-ascii You're the second person in the past few months who has told me I
should go into real estate! Maybe I will!

Sorry I neglected to mention the number one reason Sharon is a
wonderful place to live: it's where Evelyn and her wonderful family
live! :)

Yael

>I agree with everything Yael said. I've been living in Sharon for 2
>years and I love it, too. (Yael, maybe you should go into real
>estate!)
>Evelyn
>44_11May200700:17:21-0400njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM 10996 156 25_Re: Seattle vs. Baltimore0_17_RENALEVIN@AOL.COM29_Fri, 11 May 2007 01:15:24 EDT687_US-ASCII In a message dated 5/9/07 2:00:46 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
LISTSERV@SHAMASH.ORG writes:

> but we were literally shocked by the
> ultra-conservative political atmosphere and the extreme racial
> divisiveness we perceived there. Don't you find it a huge cultural
> difference from Seattle?
>
>

Sarah: are you sure you were visiting MY Baltimore? Maryland is a very
politically liberal state, some of the talk radio personalities (conservative) make
fun of the very very liberal liberal newspaper, calling it the calvert adn
center street's democrat club (the location of the papers headquarters) instead
of calling it by the name [...]37_11May200701:15:24EDTRENALEVIN@AOL.COM 11153 120 19_Re: modest swimwear14_Malkie Swidler18_malkie18@GMAIL.COM31_Fri, 11 May 2007 08:58:00 +0300398_ISO-8859-1 When on the lookout for swimsuit fabric, you want synthetic only materials
(they don't absorb water, which is why you can wring them out on shabbat.
:) My guess is that you are looking for fabric called rip stop nylon. There
is also lycra which you could cut wide, but I doubt it's what you are
looking for. Both are easily available on-line from camping supply stores. [...]40_11May200708:58:00+0300malkie18@GMAIL.COM 11274 95 26_Just sharing my nachas :-)15_Rachel Gurevich25_rachel.gurevich@GMAIL.COM31_Fri, 11 May 2007 16:46:30 +0300575_ISO-8859-1 Hi all,

I just wanted to share my nachas, which some of you perhaps will appreciate
more than others since you were around when my now 7 yr old, Menachem, was
diagnosed as autistic at age 3. Whether that was a misdiagnosis, or a
miracle improvement from the intensive early therapy, who knows...

Last night, Menachem was having trouble falling asleep and asked if he could
look at a book, a common request. I said ok, he took a book to bed, but
every so many minutes, he'd come to ask me about a word here and there. He
wasn't [...]47_11May200716:46:30+0300rachel.gurevich@GMAIL.COM 11370 150 40_Fw: [TORCH-D] Just sharing my nachas :-)4_Laya17_tolife18@JUNO.COM29_Fri, 11 May 2007 14:11:39 GMT661_- Rachel!!! I'm doing a happy dance in my heart of hearts, it's a wondeful thing to share and so beautiful for us all.
(((hugs)))
Laya

Author of the best loved book for teens
"You Don't Have to Learn Everything the Hard Way"
www.AuntLaya.com
http://tinyurl.com/22fntt
www.auntlaya.blogspot.com

---------- Forwarded Message ----------

Hi all, I just wanted to share my nachas, which some of you perhaps will appreciate more than others since you were around when my now 7 yr old, Menachem, was diagnosed as autistic at age 3. Whether that was a misdiagnosis, or a miracle improvement from the intensive early therapy, [...]37_11May200714:11:39GMTtolife18@JUNO.COM 11521 99 42_Re: Just sharing my nachas :-) (2.71/4.00)14_Rebecca Harper22_hudabecca@RAINMALL.COM31_Fri, 11 May 2007 10:03:17 -0400725_ISO-8859-1 That's WONDERFUL news!

Thanks for sharing it with us :D

-Rivkah

----- Original Message -----
From: Rachel Gurevich [mailto:rachel.gurevich@GMAIL.COM]
To: TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG
Sent: Fri, 11 May 2007 16:46:30 +0300
Subject: [TORCH-D] Just sharing my nachas :-) (2.71/4.00)

For all your data protection
go to www.vcsvault.com
=====================

Hi all,

I just wanted to share my nachas, which some of you perhaps will appreciate
more than others since you were around when my now 7 yr old, Menachem, was
diagnosed as autistic at age 3. Whether that was a misdiagnosis, or a
miracle improvement from the intensive early therapy, who knows... [...]44_11May200710:03:17-0400hudabecca@RAINMALL.COM 11621 63 47_Re: Jewish community search/dream (long post!!)13_Sharon Brooks23_Sharonajb@SBCGLOBAL.NET31_Fri, 11 May 2007 08:00:35 -0700299_iso-8859-1 Yael, my husband lived in Sharon a very ling time ago when he was single,
and he thought it was great. He still speaks of it glowingly, so it was on
our list, but he didn't do it justice compared to your coverage. Go into
real estate (and then get us into a house! hahahha) [...]45_11May200708:00:35-0700Sharonajb@SBCGLOBAL.NET 11685 57 30_Re: Just sharing my nachas :-)10_Sarah Kopp17_svkopp@012.NET.IL31_Fri, 11 May 2007 16:55:07 +0200553_ISO-8859-1 Rachel Gurevich wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I just wanted to share my nachas, which some of you perhaps will
> appreciate more than others since you were around when my now 7 yr
> old, Menachem, was diagnosed as autistic at age 3. Whether that was a
> misdiagnosis, or a miracle improvement from the intensive early
> therapy, who knows...
>
> Last night, Menachem was having trouble falling asleep and asked if he
> could look at a book, a common request. I said ok, he took a book to
> bed, but every so many [...]39_11May200716:55:07+0200svkopp@012.NET.IL 11743 68 25_Re: Seattle vs. Baltimore10_Sarah Kopp17_svkopp@012.NET.IL31_Fri, 11 May 2007 17:11:08 +0200448_ISO-8859-1 RENALEVIN@AOL.COM wrote:
> In a message dated 5/9/07 2:00:46 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> LISTSERV@SHAMASH.ORG writes:
>
>
>> but we were literally shocked by the
>> ultra-conservative political atmosphere and the extreme racial
>> divisiveness we perceived there. Don't you find it a huge cultural
>> difference from Seattle?
>>
>
>
> Sarah: are you sure you were visiting MY Baltimore?
Rena, [...]39_11May200717:11:08+0200svkopp@012.NET.IL 11812 195 35_Re: was tznius, now modest swimwear16_Brenda Goldstein19_lioness31@CA.RR.COM31_Fri, 11 May 2007 09:17:55 -0700565_ISO-8859-1 I got a very tznius swimsuit from Wholesome Wear.
Brenda

Avivah Werner wrote:

> Okay, maybe this is a not directly related to the tznis topic, but
> this is what I'm trying to figure out today, and I thought some of you
> might have addressed this concern before.
>
> We're getting ready for our annual camping trip (well, we call it
> annual because that's what it's supposed to be, but somehow it ends up
> every other year :(). I've been thinking about how to go swimming as
> a family, if we find a private [...]41_11May200709:17:55-0700lioness31@CA.RR.COM 12008 168 30_Re: Just sharing my nachas :-)16_Brenda Goldstein19_lioness31@CA.RR.COM31_Fri, 11 May 2007 09:31:21 -0700584_us-ascii Baruch Hashem! Mazel Tov!
Good Shabbos,
Brenda

Rachel Gurevich wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I just wanted to share my nachas, which some of you perhaps will
> appreciate more than others since you were around when my now 7 yr
> old, Menachem, was diagnosed as autistic at age 3. Whether that was a
> misdiagnosis, or a miracle improvement from the intensive early
> therapy, who knows...
>
> Last night, Menachem was having trouble falling asleep and asked if he
> could look at a book, a common request. I said ok, he took a book [...]41_11May200709:31:21-0700lioness31@CA.RR.COM 12177 429 30_Re: Just sharing my nachas :-)5_susan19_suelap7@COMCAST.NET31_Fri, 11 May 2007 12:38:42 -0700449_us-ascii Rachel,

This is truly heartwarming to hear. Mazal tov. And - be sure to take a
minute to pat yourself on the back for not limiting your son by listening to
the experts pessimism.

Susan

_____

From: Torah-Centered Homeschooling [mailto:TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG] On Behalf Of
Rachel Gurevich
Sent: Friday, May 11, 2007 6:47 AM
To: TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG
Subject: [TORCH-D] Just sharing my nachas :-) [...]41_11May200712:38:42-0700suelap7@COMCAST.NET 12607 36 19_Re: Brenda's Nachas16_Russell J Hendel17_rjhendel@JUNO.COM31_Sat, 12 May 2007 23:08:59 -0400351_us-ascii Brenda
We are all sooo happy for you.

But there is a moral point here for all us H-Schoolers. Motherly love can
very often cure incurable diseases which doctors don't know how to cure.
Too often we are intimidated by doctors who proclaim diagnosii in the
name of science. But there are many things doctors don't know. [...]39_12May200723:08:59-0400rjhendel@JUNO.COM 12644 102 37_classic lit--what are your favorites?4_Laya17_tolife18@JUNO.COM29_Sun, 13 May 2007 06:48:55 GMT602_- I'd love to hear the recommendations of "the classics" that people have been talking about in the recent thread about reading.
We're currently reading "Little Lord Fauntleroy" (which we bought new from Dover books for 2.50--I've sent links before for them, they have sales often and sometimes free shipping too).
It's a great book about a little boy who's so kind and pure, good relationship with his mama (his father died suddenly from an illness). He is brought to his cranky old grandfather in England, "the earl," to be groomed to inherit his fortune. His presence brings out the best [...]37_13May200706:48:55GMTtolife18@JUNO.COM 12747 87 29_courting, relationships, etc.5_Kelli33_Natural_Irish_Terrier@COMCAST.NET31_Sun, 13 May 2007 10:02:43 -0400423_iso-8859-1 Does anyone have a good book or two on age appropriate courting, or something similar? We are in an age where kids have boyfriends and such at way too young of an age and I would like to have some resources to her understand the principles behind it?
I know there are Xian books on it, but I don't know how Xian they are? Do they just mention G-d and the Bible or are they new testament and real jesusy? [...]55_13May200710:02:43-0400Natural_Irish_Terrier@COMCAST.NET 12835 72 33_Re: courting, relationships, etc.13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Sun, 13 May 2007 07:29:31 -0700579_iso-8859-1 Oh, this is something I have thought about alot!!

There are no books on the Jewish market that I could recommend, except for Gila Manolson, who deals with remaining shomer negiah and why.

I'm quite familiar with the idea of courting and LOVE it, but don't think that it officially exists in the Jewish community. I wish it did. I personally plan to encourage my kids to date for a longer than typical period of time, and to spend time with each other's families before becoming engaged. But this is going to be an uphill battle, I think, since it's [...]44_13May200707:29:31-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 12908 174 33_Re: courting, relationships, etc.14_Mandy Oeschger23_sailorswife@KNOLOGY.NET31_Sun, 13 May 2007 09:50:56 -0500379_iso-8859-1 There is a book I found interesting but since I have only boys I haven't bought it :-) http://www.feldheim.com/cgi-bin/category.cgi?item=0-87306-438-0&type=store&category=113 I have only read about it but have not heard anyone critique it yet. Also at feldheim.com they have a category of dating and marriage under which you should see a selection of good books. [...]45_13May200709:50:56-0500sailorswife@KNOLOGY.NET 13083 287 33_Re: courting, relationships, etc.13_Sharon Brooks23_Sharonajb@SBCGLOBAL.NET31_Sun, 13 May 2007 07:53:35 -0700358_iso-8859-1 I was lead to believe that, at least in the baal tshuvah world, the roshei yeshivah in Yerushalayim were enouraging more drawn out dating now because the quick marriages were leading to so many problems. So there has to be room for what you're talking about within the frum commun ity, even if there aren't books or common customs.
sharon [...]45_13May200707:53:35-0700Sharonajb@SBCGLOBAL.NET 13371 206 41_Re: classic lit--what are your favorites?14_Mandy Oeschger23_sailorswife@KNOLOGY.NET31_Sun, 13 May 2007 09:57:39 -0500444_iso-8859-1 My boys like the 1940's classic movie from the novel My Friend Flicka. There is one minor part where the abba kisses the ima which we could do without but it's from a different era so only the back of ima's head is shown for that part :-)

~Mandy

----- Original Message -----
From: Laya
To: TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG
Sent: Sunday, May 13, 2007 1:48 AM
Subject: [TORCH-D] classic lit--what are your favorites? [...]45_13May200709:57:39-0500sailorswife@KNOLOGY.NET 13578 40 33_Re: courting, relationships, etc.10_Sarah Kopp17_svkopp@012.NET.IL31_Sun, 13 May 2007 17:13:41 +0200523_ISO-8859-1 Kelli wrote:
> Does anyone have a good book or two on age appropriate courting, or
> something similar? We are in an age where kids have boyfriends and
> such at way too young of an age and I would like to have some
> resources to her understand the principles behind it?
> I know there are Xian books on it, but I don't know how Xian they are?
> Do they just mention G-d and the Bible or are they new testament and
> real jesusy?
>
>
I don't know how old your daughter is but [...]39_13May200717:13:41+0200svkopp@012.NET.IL 13619 43 33_Re: courting, relationships, etc.10_Sarah Kopp17_svkopp@012.NET.IL31_Sun, 13 May 2007 17:13:03 +0200385_ISO-8859-1 Avivah Werner wrote:
> Oh, this is something I have thought about alot!!
>
> There are no books on the Jewish market that I could recommend, except
> for Gila Manolson, who deals with remaining shomer negiah and why.
>
> I'm quite familiar with the idea of courting and LOVE it, but don't
> think that it officially exists in the Jewish community. [...]39_13May200717:13:03+0200svkopp@012.NET.IL 13663 309 33_Re: courting, relationships, etc.5_Kelli33_Natural_Irish_Terrier@COMCAST.NET31_Sun, 13 May 2007 11:24:33 -0400515_iso-8859-1 My daughter is 12. And we have the same attitude as you do, and she knows it, but I am not sure she understand completely why. She confessed, that she thought the boy up the street was cute. I handled it well and discussed again, why this is not the time for dating, or "going" with boys, not matter what others do. I think she gets part of it, but she is a kid how can she really understand fully? So I would like to back up support, so to speak. We have never encourage the "you have a boyfriend" [...]55_13May200711:24:33-0400Natural_Irish_Terrier@COMCAST.NET 13973 78 41_Re: classic lit--what are your favorites?10_Sarah Kopp17_svkopp@012.NET.IL31_Sun, 13 May 2007 18:29:20 +0200557_ISO-8859-1 Laya wrote:
>
> I'd love to hear the recommendations of "the classics" that people
> have been talking about in the recent thread about reading.
>

Here's a few of the best loved books that I read to my older kids and
then again to the younger ones:

Wind in the Willows - perhaps the most favorite of all, right up there
with Harry Potter
The Rescuers and all the Miss Bianca books
The Littles by John Peterson - we only have one but he wrote 17 of them,
I have to get more, the kids LOVED it
Miss [...]39_13May200718:29:20+0200svkopp@012.NET.IL 14052 160 41_Re: classic lit--what are your favorites?15_lmcohn@juno.com15_lmcohn@JUNO.COM29_Sun, 13 May 2007 17:03:25 GMT563_- Laya,
Could you please send the link to Dover again? I must have missed when you did it before. I'd love to order classic books from them!
As for discussing the moral of the story, I don't necessarily spell it out since my kids are so little still, but with Asher, my 5-year-old, we definitely have a little discussion about reading comprehension - I ask him what he thinks about what happened in a chapter and where the story's going and whether the new characters that appear were what he expected from the build-up, etc. Sort of informal but just [...]35_13May200717:03:25GMTlmcohn@JUNO.COM 14213 139 33_Re: courting, relationships, etc.18_Benjamin H Dickman27_bdickman@ALCATEL-LUCENT.COM31_Sun, 13 May 2007 14:44:46 -0400543_UTF-8 bs'd

From what I've heard, the roshei yeshiva for ba'alei tshuva are realizing
that being for a year or two in yeshiva or seminary will not necessarily
get to the root of a messed-up young adult's problems. The problem is
more widespread than people think. A lot of these people need A LOT of
work to get them to where they can have successful marriages. Dating
for a longer period won't cure them, but it may have the worthwhile effect
of letting the other party know that this is not going to be routine. [...]49_13May200714:44:46-0400bdickman@ALCATEL-LUCENT.COM 14353 136 41_Re: classic lit--what are your favorites?10_Louise Fox20_fox.louise@GMAIL.COM31_Sun, 13 May 2007 22:10:58 +0300370_ISO-8859-1 Sarah,
Just a note as you mentioned Beverly Cleary. I read some of her books when I
was a kid, and was surprised a few years ago when looking at them for my
kids, to notice that some of them (eg the Ramona books) are very Xtian. So
you might want to check before you buy...
Louise
PS Rebecca wrote back to Riva - did the letter arrive? [...]42_13May200722:10:58+0300fox.louise@GMAIL.COM 14490 33 18_Re: Courting books16_Russell J Hendel17_rjhendel@JUNO.COM31_Sun, 13 May 2007 17:43:50 -0400368_us-ascii Hi
The Biblical stories are still good, juicy, and filled with practical
advice, happy outcomes, and strategies that can be used. Has anyone
simply tried these stories with their kids and seen their reaction: How
about a Homework HSchooling HW assignment to read these and come back
with the kids own inferences on what to do My favorites [...]39_13May200717:43:50-0400rjhendel@JUNO.COM 14524 169 33_Re: courting, relationships, etc.13_Sharon Brooks23_Sharonajb@SBCGLOBAL.NET31_Sun, 13 May 2007 13:56:59 -0700322_UTF-8 I didn't hear it from a Rav, but my friend who did explained to me that it
was in great part a response to our all coming from such diverse backgrounds
and having developed the wrong expectations and skillset for marriage to
someone very different, especially in the context of raising a large family. [...]45_13May200713:56:59-0700Sharonajb@SBCGLOBAL.NET 14694 54 19_Re: Brenda's Nachas16_Brenda Goldstein19_lioness31@CA.RR.COM31_Sat, 12 May 2007 21:53:26 -0700609_us-ascii Thanks, Russell, but it was someone else's nachas. :)
Brenda

Russell J Hendel wrote:

>Brenda
>We are all sooo happy for you.
>
>But there is a moral point here for all us H-Schoolers. Motherly love can
>very often cure incurable diseases which doctors don't know how to cure.
>Too often we are intimidated by doctors who proclaim diagnosii in the
>name of science. But there are many things doctors don't know.
>
>My favorite story comes from the person who taught me how to lein. He was
>an extremely patient person. He had a son who was a mongoloid [...]41_12May200721:53:26-0700lioness31@CA.RR.COM 14749 65 33_Re: courting, relationships, etc.13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Sun, 13 May 2007 14:57:47 -0700459_iso-8859-1 >>From what I've heard, the roshei yeshiva for ba'alei tshuva are realizing
that being for a year or two in yeshiva or seminary will not necessarily
get to the root of a messed-up young adult's problems.<<

This applies across the board, regardless of if someone is an ffb or bt. Someone who is messed up needs a lot more than a bit of religious schooling to straighten them out and make them candidates for a successful marriage. [...]44_13May200714:57:47-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 14815 38 15_Modest swimwear17_Maria Pereverzeva22_maria-p@ROCKETMAIL.COM31_Sun, 13 May 2007 15:19:51 -0700505_iso-8859-1 Aviva--

We use a "slim dress" model from the wholesomewear.com --they have a
version w/long sleeves, long legs-- it is modest and very comfortable
in and out of water--

The best part, it's half-price in winter-- so considering the price of
fabric, it's almost as good as sewing.

Mine lasted for 3 years and still going strong (lakes mostly and a few
trips to Dead sea), but if you use it a lot in the pool it'll be
probably good for only a year or two. [...]44_13May200715:19:51-0700maria-p@ROCKETMAIL.COM 14854 173 19_Re: Modest swimwear5_Kelli33_Natural_Irish_Terrier@COMCAST.NET31_Sun, 13 May 2007 18:44:50 -0400493_iso-8859-1 I bought a suit from stingray swimwear. It is like a wet suit, only made of swim material.
solartex has them.

http://www.solartex.com/servlet/-strse-435/Stingray-ladies-swimsuit-with/Detail

Kelli Armes
and the Terriers

Not to know is bad, not to wish to know is worse"
African Proverb
----- Original Message -----
From: Maria Pereverzeva
To: TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG
Sent: Sunday, May 13, 2007 6:19 PM
Subject: [TORCH-D] Modest swimwear [...]55_13May200718:44:50-0400Natural_Irish_Terrier@COMCAST.NET 15028 68 33_Re: courting, relationships, etc.10_Larry Beck19_larry@BECKFORCE.COM31_Sun, 13 May 2007 22:05:18 -0400544_us-ascii I don't think it matters if you are an FFB or a BT. I really think the
amount of dating time should be on a case by case bases. Someone who is an
FFB might be Modern Orthodox, another is Haradie which could be Misnagid or
Hassidic. One could be Saphardie or Ashkenazi. Even an American Misnagid
with an Israeli Misnagid could be a problem. I know an American Labavich
that married an Israeli Labavich and were divorced in 5 years. On the other
hand I know a number of fairly new BTs (a year or two into it) that [...]41_13May200722:05:18-0400larry@BECKFORCE.COM 15097 199 33_Re: courting, relationships, etc.18_Benjamin H Dickman27_bdickman@ALCATEL-LUCENT.COM31_Sun, 13 May 2007 22:31:09 -0400469_UTF-8 bs'd

I don't think it's just about emotional baggage. I agree with you that
most young people would benefit from dating long enough to have good
communication and to know each other well enough to bet their lives
on the other person.

I've seen too many friends find out the hard way that they should have
dated more and should have seen a frum counselor to facilitate the
discussions that they didn't even know they should have. [...]49_13May200722:31:09-0400bdickman@ALCATEL-LUCENT.COM 15297 63 28_Re: classic lit-- Dover Link4_Laya17_tolife18@JUNO.COM29_Mon, 14 May 2007 05:11:01 GMT709_- Here's the link for Dover. They run sales regularly so keep an eye out. You can sign up for their list if you want and they'll email you when ever there is a sale.
http://store.doverpublications.com/
KT,
Laya

Author of the best loved book for teens
"You Don't Have to Learn Everything the Hard Way"
www.AuntLaya.com
http://tinyurl.com/22fntt
www.auntlaya.blogspot.com

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by
Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org,
a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and
an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...]37_14May200705:11:01GMTtolife18@JUNO.COM 15361 42 41_Re: classic lit--what are your favorites?10_Sarah Kopp17_svkopp@012.NET.IL31_Mon, 14 May 2007 07:14:58 +0200500_ISO-8859-1 Louise Fox wrote:
> Sarah,
> Just a note as you mentioned Beverly Cleary. I read some of her books
> when I was a kid, and was surprised a few years ago when looking at
> them for my kids, to notice that some of them (eg the Ramona books)
> are very Xtian. So you might want to check before you buy...
> Louise
> PS Rebecca wrote back to Riva - did the letter arrive?
>
Riva got a letter but didn't write back because Rebecca is in chu"l -
for how long? [...]39_14May200707:14:58+0200svkopp@012.NET.IL 15404 81 45_Re: shidduchim, courting, relationships, etc.4_Laya17_tolife18@JUNO.COM29_Mon, 14 May 2007 05:38:12 GMT559_- Looks l ike a great website, thank you Benzion. (www.EndTheMadness.org)
I sometimes have the occasion to counsel people who're feeling downhearted about finding a shidduch. It seems like the very beauty of our family oriented culture is a double edged sword for some who do not find their mate as soon as theyd like. We all need to be there for people who are on their quest to find their b'shert. We are the system and we can make sure that we nurture those around us--even if it's with our prayers. We can remind people of their value and beauty. [...]37_14May200705:38:12GMTtolife18@JUNO.COM 15486 66 31_link to online children's books4_Laya17_tolife18@JUNO.COM29_Mon, 14 May 2007 10:34:35 GMT342_- I've tried to send this link a couple of times and for some reason it's been blocked. So here it is in code, online children's picture books. childrenslibrary dot org
I don't know why the other links I send go through and this one not. Anyway, there are picture books from around the world on line over there. Enjoy!
KT,
Laya [...]37_14May200710:34:35GMTtolife18@JUNO.COM 15553 52 41_Re: classic lit--what are your favorites?28_Jamie Rosenblum Lichtenstein25_JROSENBL@HSPH.HARVARD.EDU31_Mon, 14 May 2007 14:00:15 -0400345_US-ASCII I seem to remember a Ramona storyline where she wants to become Catholic to get a name she likes better, but decides against it because she learns that there's more work in being Catholic than changing her name. I might be remembering the wrong book and what I'm remembering I wouldn't find objectionable for a Jewish kid to read. [...]47_14May200714:00:15-0400JROSENBL@HSPH.HARVARD.EDU 15606 50 58_[BULK] Re: [TORCH-D] classic lit--what are your favorites?19_malkiadler@juno.com19_malkiadler@JUNO.COM29_Mon, 14 May 2007 22:40:15 GMT354_- Actually, in Ramona and Her Father, the last two or so chapters are about an x-mas play and her part in it- wise men, shepards and the whole gig. When I read this aloud just recently, I skipped out whatever I deemed innappropriate. As a matter of fact, the story ended on a bit of a flat note due to leaving out alot of the last chapter.
Malki [...]39_14May200722:40:15GMTmalkiadler@JUNO.COM 15657 24 30_Negia website for Jewish teens28_Jamie Rosenblum Lichtenstein25_jrosenbl@HSPH.HARVARD.EDU31_Tue, 15 May 2007 20:50:39 -0400432_US-ASCII A friend passed this along to me, and I think it seemed relevant to a recent discussion. NCSY has developed a negia/abstinance website I thought might interest some of you with teens. The woman who showed it to me said it's aimed at kids who don't come from frum families, but found it relevant for her kids anyway since they are friends with public school kids who casually hug and kiss and dress in non-tsnius ways. [...]47_15May200720:50:39-0400jrosenbl@HSPH.HARVARD.EDU 15682 56 16_modest swim wear13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Thu, 17 May 2007 09:28:00 -0700531_iso-8859-1 Thanks so much for the feedback about the swim wear! I was really encouraged to hear that so many of you have dealt with this issue and some have even purchased from the companies that I linked to. I bought a pattern from http://www.modest-swimwear.net in the ladies and girls' sizes (so I can make them for dds 6, 10, 12, and me!), and bought swimsuit material from ebay. I like that it can be adapted in terms of length of sleeves, etc, and seems to be an easier pattern to sew than the first one I saw - plus my [...]44_17May200709:28:00-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 15739 60 21_D'nealian handwriting13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Thu, 17 May 2007 09:58:32 -0700569_iso-8859-1 I thought I would share our experience with D'nealian handwriting in case it will be of interest. We started using D'nealian this year with our now 8yob, and I'm really happy with it. What I especially like is that it transitions smoothly from manuscript to script handwriting, versus most other programs, in which the cursive and print alphabets are very different and it's like learning two entirely different ways of writing. Ds8 has really nice handwriting - all my older kids have been very impressed by how neat and attractive his handwriting is. [...]44_17May200709:58:32-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 15800 66 21_Singapore math help??13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Thu, 17 May 2007 10:10:01 -0700379_iso-8859-1 I ran into a couple of questions this morning that I don't know how to help dd10 with, and am hoping that someone can clarify how to figure this out.

They are both from 5A -

A) exercise 27, number 3 - Larry spent 1/2 of his money on a camera and another 1/8 on a radio. The camera cost $120 more than the radio. How much money did he have at first? [...]44_17May200710:10:01-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 15867 331 21_Singapore math help??18_Benjamin H Dickman27_bdickman@ALCATEL-LUCENT.COM31_Thu, 17 May 2007 13:47:35 -0400510_UTF-8 Avivah,

Singapore likes the student to draw bar graphs to stimulate the right-brain.

camera money : I'm representing this with 40 dashes to show 1/2
---------------------------------------

radio money : I'm representing this with 10 dashes to show 1/8
----------

difference: 30 dashes (3/8) is $120. So original amount is $120/(3/8) =
$120 *(8/3) = $320
------------------------------

Or, you could say since 3/8 is $120, then 1/8 is $40. 1/2 is $160. [...]49_17May200713:47:35-0400bdickman@ALCATEL-LUCENT.COM 16199 245 25_Re: D'nealian handwriting12_Rena Weisman19_renaweisman@COX.NET31_Thu, 17 May 2007 11:57:26 -0700447_iso-8859-1 How do you know when your child is ready for a formal handwriting program? My oldest is 4 and 1/2. We do a lot of writing, informally - in her parsha book, when she draws a picture, when she writes a thank you note etc. Her handwriting has dramatically improved from when we started this type of work (probably a year ago). Are there specific signs that I will see to will let me know she is ready for formal handwriting practice? [...]41_17May200711:57:26-0700renaweisman@COX.NET 16445 106 25_Re: D'nealian handwriting13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Thu, 17 May 2007 12:14:22 -0700548_iso-8859-1 I don't have anything official that I look for, since I don't really start my kids on anything structured at a young age. I think around 6 is fine if your child is interested, but I'm sure there are plenty of kids who are ready younger and older than that, so following their lead is important. I used to not give them any handwriting workbooks, just had them do copywork once they were old enough. But I saw that they would have been easier for them to learn the 'right' way to write when they were initially forming their habits. [...]44_17May200712:14:22-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 16552 58 10_blue jeans10_Sarah Kopp17_svkopp@012.NET.IL31_Thu, 17 May 2007 21:26:11 +0200381_ISO-8859-1 Following on the brief tznius thread we had recently, I'd like to know
if anyone on this list lets their boys wear blue jeans, and whether you
are in America or Israel.

This has been a minor irritant of mine over many years, as we have 6
extremely active and outdoorsy boys who can rip their pants knees before
you can say "Get down from there!" [...]39_17May200721:26:11+0200svkopp@012.NET.IL 16611 62 14_Re: blue jeans13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Thu, 17 May 2007 13:27:52 -0700290_iso-8859-1 I feel your pain - I just finished talking to another list member not even ten minutes ago about how hard boys are on pants. There are some clothing items that I can hand down from child to child (which is how the discussion started), but boys pants are rarely one of them. [...]44_17May200713:27:52-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 16674 39 25_Re: D'nealian handwriting8_cillakat18_cillakat@GMAIL.COM31_Thu, 17 May 2007 17:52:25 -0230324_ISO-8859-1 i also like programs that have little difference between print and
cursive. i lean towards italic programs simply b/c i find them
easier to do and more pleasant to look at. i also find them neat when
writing is fast as it most often is when we write as adults (incl
collage age for note taking). [...]40_17May200717:52:25-0230cillakat@GMAIL.COM 16714 49 14_Re: blue jeans10_Sarah Kopp17_svkopp@012.NET.IL31_Thu, 17 May 2007 23:07:02 +0200555_ISO-8859-1 Avivah Werner wrote:
> Jeans make a pretty strong statement in some circles, one that I
> wouldn't want my kids to be making, since it would affect how they
> were viewed. There's a reason that you got he jeans so cheaply at the
> gemach - not many other people in the circles you are referring to
> want to wear them.
>
> Sorry I don't have any great suggestions for you...but you have my
> sympathy!
>
> Avivah
>
>
Thanks for your thoughts. Just to clear the record, we have a great
gemach here [...]39_17May200723:07:02+0200svkopp@012.NET.IL 16764 227 25_Re: Singapore math help??12_Yael Resnick22_njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM31_Thu, 17 May 2007 16:32:34 -0400420_iso-8859-1 Hi Avivah!

I can help you (if you haven't already gotten
help)! This is my speciality! :) I tutor other
people's kids using Singapore Math. A lot of
parents are convinced that algebra is needed for
certain problems, when there really is a way to
solve them using that signature Singapore thought
process. As a high school math teacher, even I
have learned lots of new tricks. [...]44_17May200716:32:34-0400njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM 16992 391 25_Re: Singapore math help??14_Malkie Swidler18_malkie18@GMAIL.COM31_Thu, 17 May 2007 23:33:19 +0300415_ISO-8859-1 Yeah, we tripped across some of those.

We ended up teaching ds algebra. He liked it. Did I mention I'm very
right-brained? I understand the bar graphs, but can't explain them. I can't
say we've been loving Singapore. It is sad for me that Miquon never went
past third grade.

I'm hoping that Teaching Textbooks are better, that's what we're getting
next year (pre-Algebra). [...]40_17May200723:33:19+0300malkie18@GMAIL.COM 17384 364 33_Singapore math help?? (corrected)18_Benjamin H Dickman27_bdickman@ALCATEL-LUCENT.COM31_Thu, 17 May 2007 13:54:44 -0400432_UTF-8 Correction: 360 is divisible by 9 also, so it can handle those
"one third of one third" problems. And it's divisible by a lot
more number than I listed.

Just being compulsive. :-)

Benzion

Avivah,

Singapore likes the student to draw bar graphs to stimulate the right-brain.

camera money : I'm representing this with 40 dashes to show 1/2
--------------------------------------- [...]49_17May200713:54:44-0400bdickman@ALCATEL-LUCENT.COM 17749 101 41_Re: classic lit--what are your favorites?13_Sharon Brooks23_Sharonajb@SBCGLOBAL.NET31_Sun, 13 May 2007 16:04:29 -0700652_iso-8859-1 Sara,

Thanks for a good starting list. That should get us through quite a good
stretch of reading!

Sharon

----- Original Message -----
From: "Sarah Kopp"
To:
Sent: Sunday, May 13, 2007 9:29 AM
Subject: Re: [TORCH-D] classic lit--what are your favorites?

> Laya wrote:
>>
>> I'd love to hear the recommendations of "the classics" that people have
>> been talking about in the recent thread about reading.
>>
>
> Here's a few of the best loved books that I read to my older kids and then
> again to the younger ones:
>
> Wind [...]45_13May200716:04:29-0700Sharonajb@SBCGLOBAL.NET 17851 383 25_Re: Singapore math help??12_Yael Resnick22_njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM31_Thu, 17 May 2007 17:25:07 -0400338_iso-8859-1 What I would add is that the Singapore diagrams
often boil down to looking at the problem in
terms of "units." So in the camera & radio
problem, once you show that the camera is 4 units
and the radio is 1 unit, the difference is 3
units -- and that's $120. So 1 unit is $40. You
can figure out the rest. [...]44_17May200717:25:07-0400njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM 18235 69 14_Re: blue jeans13_Sharon Brooks23_Sharonajb@SBCGLOBAL.NET31_Thu, 17 May 2007 18:46:41 -0700487_iso-8859-1 Please excuse my ignorance, but would someone excuse the bad view of jeans?
I have never understood why rugged pants for play or work should get a bad
rap as long as they are not cut in some extreme fashion. I've heard it
before. It just doesn't make sense to me.

sharon

----- Original Message -----
From: "Sarah Kopp"
To:
Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2007 2:07 PM
Subject: Re: [TORCH-D] blue jeans [...]45_17May200718:46:41-0700Sharonajb@SBCGLOBAL.NET 18305 92 14_Re: blue jeans14_Bill Bernstein27_billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET31_Thu, 17 May 2007 21:14:50 -0500395_ISO-8859-1 You obviously don't get it.
Reb Moshe zt'l never wore jeans, right? Yaakov Avinu never wore jeans.
So who are we to go against the mesorah and start wearing jeans? It is
nothing less than kefira and apikorsus.
Now you understand?
Bill Bernstein
Whose great-grandfather sold Levis but probably never wore them, because
he was no apikorus (well yeah, he was). [...]49_17May200721:14:50-0500billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET 18398 68 14_Re: blue jeans10_Sarah Kopp17_svkopp@012.NET.IL31_Fri, 18 May 2007 11:08:36 +0200595_ISO-8859-1 Uh oh, now you opened a can of worms. My kids want to know why if Moshe
and Yaakov, and Miriam, Rachel and Leah, wore sandals without socks, why
do we have to wear socks all summer?

Sarah

Bill Bernstein wrote:
> You obviously don't get it.
> Reb Moshe zt'l never wore jeans, right? Yaakov Avinu never wore
> jeans. So who are we to go against the mesorah and start wearing
> jeans? It is nothing less than kefira and apikorsus.
> Now you understand?
> Bill Bernstein
> Whose great-grandfather sold Levis but probably never wore them,
[...]39_18May200711:08:36+0200svkopp@012.NET.IL 18467 73 25_Re: D'nealian handwriting14_Evelyn Krieger18_ek2000@COMCAST.NET31_Thu, 17 May 2007 03:50:20 -0400448_iso-8859-1 Look at the Kumon workbooks for preschoolers.They are attractive, simple, and age-appropriate. A 4 year old child needs lots of practice with fine motor: molding clay, beading, buttoning, flipping cards, chalk writing, spinning tops, crayoning, mazes, dot-to-dot and tracing. All these activities help with handwriting as well as other motor skills. Sometimes problems crop up when starting formal handwriting, too early.
Evelyn [...]40_17May200703:50:20-0400ek2000@COMCAST.NET 18541 100 14_Re: blue jeans17_Rachel Turniansky28_rachelturniansky@HOTMAIL.COM31_Thu, 17 May 2007 20:21:49 -0400425_- One suggestion for helping to prolong the life of "dress" pants if your boys
are embarrassed to wear patched pants is to use iron-on patches on the
knees, but apply them as a preventative on the inside of the pants.
Depending on the size of your boys, you can either use purchased ones or you
can make your own with fusible web and long panels of fabric that go from
well above the knees to well below. [...]50_17May200720:21:49-0400rachelturniansky@HOTMAIL.COM 18642 101 26_Re: blue jeans (3.62/4.00)14_Rebecca Harper22_hudabecca@RAINMALL.COM31_Thu, 17 May 2007 19:42:41 -0400416_ISO-8859-1 I guess it depends on where you live. I have no problems with my boys (3,5,6) wearing jeans to play in. I prefer them to wear pants when we are going out - i.e. not playing in the dirt. My husband actually prefers jeans when he need to do heavy gardening stuff (cutting down trees, digging out stumps, mowing, etc.) I would say that 2/3's of the religious community wears jeans, and the rest do not. [...]44_17May200719:42:41-0400hudabecca@RAINMALL.COM 18744 58 33_Recommendations for Math Programs14_Gaby Neuburger17_ylb@NEUBURGER.ORG31_Fri, 18 May 2007 02:01:14 -0700586_ISO-8859-1 I'm starting to look into which math program to use with my dd7 and dd5.
When I pulled my older daughter out of school a couple of weeks ago, I found
out that they've only covered about 1/4 (if that) of the curriculum for the
year, and there are some subjects that she should have covered last year,
which never happened. For the last few weeks I've just been continuing with
her workbook (2nd grade McGraw-Hill) - but I'm not at all impressed. What
programs would you recommend (for both Kindergarten and 3rd grade), and
why? For that matter, what [...]39_18May200702:01:14-0700ylb@NEUBURGER.ORG 18803 67 14_Re: blue jeans13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Fri, 18 May 2007 08:21:50 -0700571_iso-8859-1 >>Please excuse my ignorance, but would someone excuse the bad view of jeans?
I have never understood why rugged pants for play or work should get a bad
rap as long as they are not cut in some extreme fashion. <<

I don't have a bad view of jeans, and have no opinion about others wearing them. They just aren't the look that I prefer for my family. Some have associations with jeans that aren't the kind of associations they are comfortable with. Lots of people feel that dark pants look more refined than jeans. Most people would agree that [...]44_18May200708:21:50-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 18871 68 14_Re: blue jeans16_Brenda Goldstein19_lioness31@CA.RR.COM31_Fri, 18 May 2007 08:45:23 -0700560_ISO-8859-1 As we all know, jeans and socks weren't available at that time! That's a
good point, about socks (as well as tights or stockings).

Sarah Kopp wrote:

> Uh oh, now you opened a can of worms. My kids want to know why if
> Moshe and Yaakov, and Miriam, Rachel and Leah, wore sandals without
> socks, why do we have to wear socks all summer?
>
> Sarah
>
> Bill Bernstein wrote:
>
>> You obviously don't get it.
>> Reb Moshe zt'l never wore jeans, right? Yaakov Avinu never wore
>> jeans. So who are we [...]41_18May200708:45:23-0700lioness31@CA.RR.COM 18940 65 37_Re: Recommendations for Math Programs18_Benjamin H Dickman27_bdickman@ALCATEL-LUCENT.COM31_Fri, 18 May 2007 12:23:42 -0400611_UTF-8 bs'd

Gaby,

Many in the TORCH group like Miquon, which goes up to third grade.
Many like Singapore Math. If you go to their website www.singaporemath.com
you can print out a test to see where your kids' levels are.
I like their approach to making you estimate and making you use
the right side of the brain. Their series goes to sixth grade, after
which there is a different series for 7th and up. Make sure to get
the U.S. edition of the book. You probably won't need to buy the workbook
as well. For manipulatives, see http://www.etacuisenaire.com/ for ideas.
[...]49_18May200712:23:42-0400bdickman@ALCATEL-LUCENT.COM 19006 102 14_Re: blue jeans18_Benjamin H Dickman27_bdickman@ALCATEL-LUCENT.COM31_Fri, 18 May 2007 12:17:12 -0400351_UTF-8 bs'd

A major factor in the halakhoth of how to dress is:
"what is considered respectable dress by the surrounding culture?"
We DON'T copy their customs or dress if they are part of their religion,
but if respectable Gentiles wouldn't be comfortable being seen in public
wearing jeans, then we don't wear jeans in public. [...]49_18May200712:17:12-0400bdickman@ALCATEL-LUCENT.COM 19109 293 14_Re: blue jeans13_Sharon Brooks23_Sharonajb@SBCGLOBAL.NET31_Fri, 18 May 2007 09:11:26 -0700575_iso-8859-1 Thanks Avivah.

I wasn't trying to judge, chas v'shalom. It's just that when I was researching schools at one point I was informed that certain school research their candidates, and one school included clothing choice in their questions - in particular, whether the father was ever seen wearing jeans. I agree that jeans are not as neat a look in general, although LA is so casual that my husband is able to wear them at work - even at the executive level, even in meetings. Their not his first choice, and my son doesn't care for them. But the thought [...]45_18May200709:11:26-0700Sharonajb@SBCGLOBAL.NET 19403 44 14_Re: blue jeans0_27_billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET31_Fri, 18 May 2007 11:58:22 -0500571_ISO-8859-1 I don't mind ranting, erev Shabbos or not.

When we buy into this mindset that "if he wears this then he must be that" we support and encourage an attitude which is, imvho, contrary to Torah.
If anyone has ever noticed, with secular books, you can usually get an idea what the book is about by its title. If you pick up "Einstein: His Life and Universe" you pretty well know what you're getting.
In the Jewish world it is completely opposite. What kind of sefer is "Minchas Shmuel"? What will you get by learning "Madreigos HoOdom"? No way to [...]49_18May200711:58:22-0500billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET 19448 73 37_Re: Recommendations for Math Programs8_cillakat18_cillakat@GMAIL.COM31_Fri, 18 May 2007 15:15:33 -0230407_ISO-8859-1 over anything else, I prefer rightstart math (rightstartmath DOT com).

but if I had a child who loved math and sailed through workbooks w/o a
hitch and asked for more I'd use saxon or more likely, singapore.
probably singapore in combination with horizons. I'd still get the
"Math Games" from rightstart math b/c they make internalizing math
facts quite painless and fun. [...]40_18May200715:15:33-0230cillakat@GMAIL.COM 19522 93 14_Re: blue jeans13_Sharon Brooks23_Sharonajb@SBCGLOBAL.NET31_Fri, 18 May 2007 10:42:22 -0700462_iso-8859-1 Do you have to put tzitzis on one of those, Bill?
I agree with what you're saying. Truthfully, the attitude made me wonder
about the school(s) espousing it. That's not what I want my children
learning, and especially not associated with Torah.

Sharon

----- Original Message -----
From:
To:
Sent: Friday, May 18, 2007 9:58 AM
Subject: Re: [TORCH-D] blue jeans [...]45_18May200710:42:22-0700Sharonajb@SBCGLOBAL.NET 19616 26 20_handwriting programs25_Michael and Nadine Postol20_mnpostol@COMCAST.NET31_Fri, 18 May 2007 14:03:41 -0400583_ISO-8859-1 We like Handwriting Without Tears. It's a pre-K through around 4th
grade program, from block letters to cursive, sans serif. It's
especially nice that they now have a Hebrew writing componant.

http://www.hwtears.com/

Good Shabbos,
Nadine

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by
Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org,
a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and
an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...]42_18May200714:03:41-0400mnpostol@COMCAST.NET 19643 106 37_Re: Recommendations for Math Programs14_Mandy Oeschger23_sailorswife@KNOLOGY.NET31_Fri, 18 May 2007 13:13:00 -0500496_iso-8859-1 I'll second right start math! My DH is a research scientist and after
reading up on the right start philosophy, he loved it and wanted us to start
the program right away. DH liked that the program teaches you to actually
think and not just memorize. My DS ( 6 y.o. ) has started level B and loves
it. This is a kid who HATED math but I believe he is going to excel with
this program B'ezrat Hasehm ( w/ G-d's help )! Thanks to you for
recommending this program! [...]45_18May200713:13:00-0500sailorswife@KNOLOGY.NET 19750 136 24_Re: handwriting programs5_Kelli33_Natural_Irish_Terrier@COMCAST.NET31_Fri, 18 May 2007 14:26:11 -0400421_iso-8859-1 I have used that program as well. We liked it especially for children that may be having any difficulty in writing.

Kelli Armes
and the Terriers

Not to know is bad, not to wish to know is worse
African Proverb
----- Original Message -----
From: Michael and Nadine Postol
To: TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG
Sent: Friday, May 18, 2007 2:03 PM
Subject: [TORCH-D] handwriting programs [...]55_18May200714:26:11-0400Natural_Irish_Terrier@COMCAST.NET 19887 47 14_Re: blue jeans14_Jennifer Moran20_jrmoran@UCHICAGO.EDU31_Fri, 18 May 2007 13:54:26 -0500415_us-ascii Bill B. wrote:
>If someone's father wears jeans, ever,
>maybe it means he likes to garden.
>Maybe it means he's an ex-hippy.
>Maybe it means nothing at all.

I wonder whether it's also a sign of a community's
ambivalence about manual labor, and its belief that every
man should be a scholar, dressed for the Beis Medrash at all
times? Feel free to tell me I'm way off base. [...]42_18May200713:54:26-0500jrmoran@UCHICAGO.EDU 19935 70 14_Re: blue jeans13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Fri, 18 May 2007 13:42:57 -0700574_iso-8859-1 >>I wonder whether it's also a sign of a community's
ambivalence about manual labor, and its belief that every
man should be a scholar, dressed for the Beis Medrash at all
times?<<

I don't go for that idea - my ds13 had his own lawn mowing business for two years, works very hard doing home renovations, gardening - and always wore his not such nice dark pants. He doesn't look ready for the bais medrash at these times, regardless of the color of his pants (right now he's busy applying joint compound and sanding it down, and his pants are [...]44_18May200713:42:57-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 20006 81 14_Re: blue jeans13_Sharon Brooks23_Sharonajb@SBCGLOBAL.NET31_Fri, 18 May 2007 13:52:50 -0700579_iso-8859-1 I can't say that I've learned much about it, but it seems to me that this is
related to the ban on land ownership that was imposed on Jews in galus.
There were plenty of gedolim through the centuries, millenia, who were
manual laborers for their parnassah. My understanding is that, when there
was a choice, they wore work clothes to work. In some circles I know of
people who dress up daily with the expectation that Moshiach is coming
imminently and they need to be prepared, or women are told to avoid denim
skirts because it's not what a [...]45_18May200713:52:50-0700Sharonajb@SBCGLOBAL.NET 20088 34 37_Re: Recommendations for Math Programs8_cillakat18_cillakat@GMAIL.COM31_Fri, 18 May 2007 18:49:34 -0230586_ISO-8859-1 << Still waiting on imput on juggling these guys plus all the other things we
> have to do in a home >>

wish i had insight there:/ it's something I struggle with too. daily.

i love rightstart for the same reasons you do as well (and
others;))....just to clarify though for others that there is
memorization of math facts - it's just that it's not the only thing
you're doing....and the child doesn't even realize that it's happening
b/c most of it's coming along through the abacus and the games - so
the boring rote part of math becomes [...]40_18May200718:49:34-0230cillakat@GMAIL.COM 20123 64 25_juggling responsibilities13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Fri, 18 May 2007 15:54:30 -0700527_iso-8859-1 >>Still waiting on imput on juggling these guys plus all the other things we
have to do in a home lOl<<

Oh, it's pretty simple. :):) :) Seriously, here's my quick feedback. Have realistic expectations, involve your kids in the things you need to do, and prioritize. You can't do everything you may want to do; make sure what you are expecting of yourself is reasonable. Keeping meals on the table, clothes on everyone's bodies, and the house in somewhat reasonable order is a big job. Keep it simple. [...]44_18May200715:54:30-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 20188 47 14_Re: blue jeans14_Jennifer Moran20_jrmoran@UCHICAGO.EDU31_Fri, 18 May 2007 18:20:46 -0500423_us-ascii Sharon asked:
>And not that I can afford the designer labels, or am
>remotely compelled by them, but where's the harm in them?

Personally, I don't think it's very tzniusdik for either
boys or girls to have things written on their bottoms. Not
that I would make a fuss over tiny little labels. But I
wouldn't choose clothes with writing or designs intended to
attract attention there. [...]42_18May200718:20:46-0500jrmoran@UCHICAGO.EDU 20236 69 14_Re: blue jeans13_Sharon Brooks23_Sharonajb@SBCGLOBAL.NET31_Fri, 18 May 2007 17:34:35 -0700656_iso-8859-1 Hahahah! Boy am I out of touch! here I thought you meant the tiny label
inside the collar or waistband. No. I don't want words on my child's
tuchus either!
sharon

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jennifer Moran"
To:
Sent: Friday, May 18, 2007 4:20 PM
Subject: Re: [TORCH-D] blue jeans

> Sharon asked:
>>And not that I can afford the designer labels, or am
>>remotely compelled by them, but where's the harm in them?
>
> Personally, I don't think it's very tzniusdik for either
> boys or girls to have things written on their bottoms. Not
[...]45_18May200717:34:35-0700Sharonajb@SBCGLOBAL.NET 20306 277 29_Re: juggling responsibilities13_Sharon Brooks23_Sharonajb@SBCGLOBAL.NET31_Fri, 18 May 2007 17:39:36 -0700511_iso-8859-1 I don't know. I like the idea of involving everyone, but they often need to be prompted item by item, if they don't fight me tooth and nail. This is with a five and under crowd. The eldest has always been somewhat helpful, but the middle almost always tries to get out of it, and the youngest wants to be either in my arms or eating everything he can get in his mouth. My husband is incredibly helpful, and I'm not remotely a neat freak. But what you're saying just doesn't seem to work for us. [...]45_18May200717:39:36-0700Sharonajb@SBCGLOBAL.NET 20584 32 25_Re: Singapore math help??12_Yael Resnick22_njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM31_Thu, 17 May 2007 18:04:44 -0400132_us-ascii At 4:32 PM -0400 5/17/07, Yael Resnick wrote:
>This is my speciality!

Of course I meant specialty....

Yael44_17May200718:04:44-0400njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM 20617 64 15_Dover book sale4_Laya17_tolife18@JUNO.COM29_Fri, 18 May 2007 04:06:42 GMT451_- Since it just came up recently, thought I'd mention that Dover's got a summer sale going with f-ree shipping over 50 dollars (and a gift too). http://www.doverpublications.com/summer/ (scroll down to see details about the shipping offer)
Chodesh tov all,
Laya

Author of the best loved book for teens
"You Don't Have to Learn Everything the Hard Way"
www.AuntLaya.com
http://tinyurl.com/22fntt
www.auntlaya.blogspot.com [...]37_18May200704:06:42GMTtolife18@JUNO.COM 20682 59 14_Re: blue jeans16_Brenda Goldstein19_lioness31@CA.RR.COM31_Thu, 17 May 2007 21:38:15 -0700549_us-ascii I do. I'm in the US. Of course, my son is only four. In some circles
where I live, jeans would be frowned upon--but I don't care! The Torah
doesn't say that jeans are forbidden!

Sarah Kopp wrote:

> Following on the brief tznius thread we had recently, I'd like to know
> if anyone on this list lets their boys wear blue jeans, and whether
> you are in America or Israel.
>
> This has been a minor irritant of mine over many years, as we have 6
> extremely active and outdoorsy boys who can rip their [...]41_17May200721:38:15-0700lioness31@CA.RR.COM 20742 49 24_Re: handwriting programs14_Mandy Oeschger23_sailorswife@KNOLOGY.NET31_Fri, 18 May 2007 13:19:29 -0500783_iso-8859-1 Hey! Thanks for that link,, the Hebrew book looks great! -Mandy

----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael and Nadine Postol"
To:
Sent: Friday, May 18, 2007 1:03 PM
Subject: [TORCH-D] handwriting programs

> We like Handwriting Without Tears. It's a pre-K through around 4th
> grade program, from block letters to cursive, sans serif. It's
> especially nice that they now have a Hebrew writing componant.
>
> http://www.hwtears.com/
>
> Good Shabbos,
> Nadine
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by
> Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org,
> a service of Hebrew College, [...]45_18May200713:19:29-0500sailorswife@KNOLOGY.NET 20792 29 14_Re: blue jeans6_Zohari20_najova@EARTHLINK.NET31_Sat, 19 May 2007 21:35:27 -0600476_US-ASCII > Avivah, here's some more info on Amish dress and the use of
> denim. Yes, it varies by community, but is fairly common:
> http://www.oacountry.com/Amish-Dress.htm

I showed this link to my 8 year old son and asked him if he thought the
people in the picture were Yidden? He said, "yes, they're Chassidim like
us!" Then we had a cute talk about how other people's try to maintain their
traditional dress and practices. Thanks for the link! [...]42_19May200721:35:27-0600najova@EARTHLINK.NET 20822 63 14_Re: blue jeans14_Gaby Neuburger17_ylb@NEUBURGER.ORG31_Fri, 18 May 2007 01:50:32 -0700461_ISO-8859-1 >
> Sarah,

I don't have any boys, but some of my friends have exactly the same problem
and buy "Dickies" pants for their boys. These are essentially heavy duty
"work" pants. You can find them at www.dickies.com under the school uniform
section - these ones come without an external logo - I've only ever seen
ones with a logo before. I'm sure many other websites sell them - I don't
know if they're sold outside the US. [...]39_18May200701:50:32-0700ylb@NEUBURGER.ORG 20886 87 37_Re: Recommendations for Math Programs13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Sat, 19 May 2007 21:21:30 -0700571_iso-8859-1 Hi, Gaby,

>>I'm starting to look into which math program to use with my dd7 and dd5. When I pulled my older daughter out of school a couple of weeks ago, I found out that they've only covered about 1/4 (if that) of the curriculum for the year, and there are some subjects that she should have covered last year, which never happened. For the last few weeks I've just been continuing with her workbook (2nd grade McGraw-Hill) - but I'm not at all impressed. What programs would you recommend (for both Kindergarten and 3rd grade), and why? For that [...]44_19May200721:21:30-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 20974 69 29_Re: juggling responsibilities13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Sat, 19 May 2007 22:21:52 -0700547_iso-8859-1 My kids aren't all very young anymore, but I do remember having four under the age of five and I know how challenging it is. :) I'm not saying that this will work right away - it requires a change in mindset for the parents, and then that needs to be communicated to the kiddies. Involving the kids to the degree I'm suggesting is a major change for most moms. This is the same things that I suggest as far as teaching middos and discipline, too - keeping them close and supervised. There are other options, too, like hiring help, [...]44_19May200722:21:52-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 21044 98 14_Re: blue jeans10_Sarah Kopp17_svkopp@012.NET.IL31_Sun, 20 May 2007 09:05:00 +0200589_ISO-8859-1 Avivah Werner wrote:
> I would hope that especially as homeschoolers (who often go against
> the societal stream), we can find a bit more room in our hearts to
> look at others without unnecessary judgement and belittling based on
> superficialities .
>
Ah, but the predicament is how others judge us - and whether or not we
are comfortable with that. I still have 2 kids in a school system where
the teachers have incorrectly assumed that one of my older boys is "off
the derech" because he wears jeans and T-shirts, along with tzitzit and
a [...]39_20May200709:05:00+0200svkopp@012.NET.IL 21143 39 14_Re: blue jeans10_Sarah Kopp17_svkopp@012.NET.IL31_Sun, 20 May 2007 09:09:05 +0200412_ISO-8859-1 billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET wrote:
> But I just bought a guayabera (the uniform of fat men in the Western Hemisphere) for the summer. So I guess I'm anathema now.
>
Oh nostalgia! I lived in those shirts for many many years. Since I was
14 I had kept 3 in my wardrobe at all times. Now I've been in Israel so
long that all the shirts I brought have long since passed to rags. Sigh. [...]39_20May200709:09:05+0200svkopp@012.NET.IL 21183 54 14_Re: blue jeans17_Maria Pereverzeva22_maria-p@ROCKETMAIL.COM31_Sun, 20 May 2007 01:13:37 -0700578_iso-8859-1 My husband wears them; our boys wear them, although they mostly have
jeans in other colors; I wear jean skirts all the time and my girls
wear jean skirts often. Why, the jean things are almost indestructible!
I could never understand the stigma attached to blue jeans - as the
fabric seems to be one of the most economical, easy to care for,
comfortable to wear - and can be neat and nice looking even in the end
of an active day. (Written statements on clothing and designer symbols
are different- we don't allow any of these in the house, [...]44_20May200701:13:37-0700maria-p@ROCKETMAIL.COM 21238 74 29_Re: juggling responsibilities14_Malkie Swidler18_malkie18@GMAIL.COM31_Sun, 20 May 2007 17:24:27 +0300546_ISO-8859-1 "You're so lucky that...."

Don't you ever want to reply, "we make our own luck"?

Sharon, I wish I could be helpful but I've got three and only the last two
are close together. (The oldest is five years older than the next one, and
if anyone wants to talk about juggling needs of individual kids who are much
older or younger than other siblings, and how to make sure they still get
what they need, I'm all ears!!) What I do know is the more they help, the
less I need to do, the better everything is. [...]40_20May200717:24:27+0300malkie18@GMAIL.COM 21313 39 14_Re: blue jeans10_Sarah Kopp17_svkopp@012.NET.IL31_Sun, 20 May 2007 16:38:56 +0200535_ISO-8859-1 Maria Pereverzeva wrote:
> Having said that - we live in a small and very tolerant community
> (Bellevue, WA),

Hi Maria! I grew up in Seattle and lived in Bellevue for awhile -
Killarney Circle, Enatia District.

It does seem that the smaller the Jewish community is, the more tolerant
they are. That said, how are we going to encourage achdut in larger
communities that are full of divisiveness? By going our own way
regardless, as in blue jeans? Or by conforming for the sake of peace? [...]39_20May200716:38:56+0200svkopp@012.NET.IL 21353 47 14_Re: blue jeans14_Bill Bernstein27_billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET31_Sun, 20 May 2007 09:46:49 -0500627_ISO-8859-1 This is a dallacy. Achdus does not mean everyone dressing alike and
having the same standards and same ideas.
There is achdus and there is diversity. We had
diversity in the Torah world from the very beginning of the shvatim
(tribes), each one with different character. Our history is marked with
diversity, indeed it is the basis for discussions in Gemara.
But all this diversity happened around a unity of purpose, serving
HaShem. Thus all the tribes were ordered around the aron, as we learned
in this past week's parsha. This is achdus: unity of purpose. The
[...]49_20May200709:46:49-0500billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET 21401 61 29_Re: juggling responsibilities13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Sun, 20 May 2007 07:59:00 -0700375_iso-8859-1 >>"You're so lucky that...."

Don't you ever want to reply, "we make our own luck"?<<

Yes, I do want to say that, all the time! But I don't like to sound self congratulatory and it's hard to say it with just the right tone. Often I manage it, but it often requires a longer explanatory response than I want to give to the person I'm speaking to. [...]44_20May200707:59:00-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 21463 292 29_Re: juggling responsibilities13_Sharon Brooks23_Sharonajb@SBCGLOBAL.NET31_Sun, 20 May 2007 08:09:54 -0700598_iso-8859-1 Malkie, i wasn't the one asking. I just agreed with the questioner that it's challenging. I've been working on my kids to help out since the beginning, and generally, when they show an interest in helpng, at whatever age, I try to encourage and build on it. My eldest helps with the floor, with shlepping, cleaning messes, watching the baby, putting things away, feeding the middle child, etc. The middle child helps with laundry, unpacking groceries, feeding the baby, and washing dirty gear. But despite their help, I've never figured out to juggle with the needs of a baby. They [...]45_20May200708:09:54-0700Sharonajb@SBCGLOBAL.NET 21756 89 14_Re: blue jeans10_Sarah Kopp17_svkopp@012.NET.IL31_Sun, 20 May 2007 18:01:22 +0200591_ISO-8859-1 Bill Bernstein wrote:
> This is a dallacy. Achdus does not mean everyone dressing alike and
> having the same standards and same ideas.
> There is achdus and there is diversity. We had
> diversity in the Torah world from the very beginning of the shvatim
> (tribes), each one with different character. Our history is marked
> with diversity, indeed it is the basis for discussions in Gemara.
I agree 100% - and our history is just as marked by divisiveness as it
is by diversity. Only 37 years after the 1st Beit HaMikdash was
[...]39_20May200718:01:22+0200svkopp@012.NET.IL 21846 42 29_Re: OT mexican wedding shirts10_Sarah Kopp17_svkopp@012.NET.IL31_Sun, 20 May 2007 18:07:58 +0200454_ISO-8859-1 Sarah Kopp wrote:
> billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET wrote:
>> But I just bought a guayabera (the uniform of fat men in the Western
>> Hemisphere) for the summer. So I guess I'm anathema now.
>>
> Oh nostalgia! I lived in those shirts for many many years. Since I was
> 14 I had kept 3 in my wardrobe at all times. Now I've been in Israel
> so long that all the shirts I brought have long since passed to rags.
> Sigh. [...]39_20May200718:07:58+0200svkopp@012.NET.IL 21889 155 61_Re: blue jeans - to wear or not to wear..that is the question13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Sun, 20 May 2007 11:07:47 -0700318_iso-8859-1 >> It does seem that the smaller the Jewish community is, the more
>> tolerant they are. That said, how are we going to encourage achdut in
>> larger communities that are full of divisiveness? By going our own
>> way regardless, as in blue jeans? Or by conforming for the sake of
>> peace? [...]44_20May200711:07:47-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 22045 109 24_Re: handwriting programs14_Malkie Swidler18_malkie18@GMAIL.COM31_Sun, 20 May 2007 21:43:06 +0300623_ISO-8859-1 I don't mean to offend anyone who loves it, but to my eyes now accustomed to
Israeli script after nine years here, the Hebrew script at HWT looks
unattractive and simplistic.

There's a local book called "Naim L'Chtov" by Chaya Kushner that's the
standard in elementary schools here. It divides the letters into similar
shapes, and suggests games for getting kids used to the shapes. It's very
well done, overall, and teaches a more proper writing style. If you have
anyone visiting, it's easy to get at any store that sells school books to
secular or National Religious schools. [...]40_20May200721:43:06+0300malkie18@GMAIL.COM 22155 74 16_Jewish Flybabies9_beth mali18_malikids@GMAIL.COM31_Sun, 20 May 2007 13:57:48 -0700584_ISO-8859-1 Just to let you all know I've been following most of the posts with
interest and with some discussion with my kids but without writing in any
comment---mainly because we don't live in a Jewish community so I wouldn't
have much relevant comment. Where we live we are stared at eveyrwhere we go
because we dress 'snius' and it just looks strange outside a community. More
denim would mean less stares where we live. We do denim--however, we try to
stay away from 'frum provacative'.
The best I have been able to keep my house in order has been when [...]40_20May200713:57:48-0700malikids@GMAIL.COM 22230 62 12_Re: weddings13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Sun, 20 May 2007 16:36:01 -0700481_iso-8859-1 Mazel tov on Dahlia's engagement, Beth! How exciting!

>>Seems like some people think weddings are akin to school tuitions--something you should plan your whole life working for. <<

I think most people don't plan for them their whole lives - they're too busy with tuition. (Or do you mean they spend the remaining half of their lives paying them off?) So when the weddings come, out come second mortgages, massive use of credit cards, and large loans. [...]44_20May200716:36:01-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 22293 100 24_Re: weddings (2.72/4.00)14_Rebecca Harper22_hudabecca@RAINMALL.COM31_Sun, 20 May 2007 19:59:53 -0400527_ISO-8859-1 :D Mazal Tov Beth!

Just FYI Avivah, you can have nice small non-fancy happy and exciting weddings here - we had 90 people at our wedding, and it was in a friend's backyard - rented a tent (needed it, it was raining, and rain does bring brachas ) My friend and I went to the flower store and we picked out synthetic flowers for a vase for each table. She made the chuppah.... what more do you need? :D Would not have changed it for the world! And, yes, I think everyone had a great time too! Not sure how [...]44_20May200719:59:53-0400hudabecca@RAINMALL.COM 22394 62 12_Re: weddings13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Sun, 20 May 2007 17:37:27 -0700400_iso-8859-1 I loved your post, Rivkah, and am going to share details about what you did with my kids! I really love when I hear people thinking honestly about what a wedding should mean and can create a beautiful simcha without all the unnecessary extravagance. Just out of curiousity, did you and your dh pay for the wedding yourselves, and were you any older than average when you got married? [...]44_20May200717:37:27-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 22457 55 14_Re: blue jeans10_Larry Beck19_larry@BECKFORCE.COM31_Sun, 20 May 2007 20:56:45 -0400534_us-ascii I don't remember who but someone said (I think it was a comedian), when
asked about not being allowed to join a country club because it did not
allow Jewish members, that he would not want to belong to a club that didn't
want him as a member. I wear a suit to Shul on Shabbos but my shirt is
colored, not white. I wear blue jeans around town and the house when I'm
putzing around. And if I don't have time to change, or I'm really not in the
mood, I wear them to weekday minyonim too. Fortunately, the [...]41_20May200720:56:45-0400larry@BECKFORCE.COM 22513 78 14_Re: blue jeans14_Bill Bernstein27_billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET31_Sun, 20 May 2007 20:04:06 -0500576_ISO-8859-1 It was Groucho Marx.

And anyone who appreciates good beer will forgive you wearing jeans.
Bill.

Larry Beck wrote:

>I don't remember who but someone said (I think it was a comedian), when
>asked about not being allowed to join a country club because it did not
>allow Jewish members, that he would not want to belong to a club that didn't
>want him as a member. I wear a suit to Shul on Shabbos but my shirt is
>colored, not white. I wear blue jeans around town and the house when I'm
>putzing around. And if I don't have [...]49_20May200720:04:06-0500billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET 22592 126 29_Re: juggling responsibilities10_Larry Beck19_larry@BECKFORCE.COM31_Sun, 20 May 2007 21:09:40 -0400367_us-ascii Avivah,

My Rabbi learnt that there is no Torah concept for Luck. That the Hebrew
word "Mazal" does not mean "lucky". He said the "Mem, Zyan, Lamed" is an
acronym for "Macom, Zaman, Lomeid". In other words: "Being in the right
place, at the right time and knowing what to do with it." It sounds to me
that is exactly what you've done. [...]41_20May200721:09:40-0400larry@BECKFORCE.COM 22719 33 14_Re: blue jeans10_Larry Beck19_larry@BECKFORCE.COM31_Sun, 20 May 2007 21:14:31 -0400751_us-ascii Well that's good Bill because I make my own beer and its really very good.
Larry

-----Original Message-----
From: Torah-Centered Homeschooling [mailto:TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG] On Behalf Of
Bill Bernstein
Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2007 9:04 PM
To: TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG
Subject: Re: [TORCH-D] blue jeans

It was Groucho Marx.

And anyone who appreciates good beer will forgive you wearing jeans.
Bill.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by
Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org,
a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and
an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...]41_20May200721:14:31-0400larry@BECKFORCE.COM 22753 84 24_Re: weddings (2.72/4.00)14_Rebecca Harper22_hudabecca@RAINMALL.COM31_Sun, 20 May 2007 21:17:53 -0400450_ISO-8859-1 I was 23 when I got married - I paid for my dress, and the part of the bentchers. My husband paid for the other part of the bentchers. My parents did pay for the rest - unfortunately I did not have the money at that time - I was still a full time student at university and only working a few hours a week. My husband also paid for plane tickets - he bought tickets for him and our rabbi to come to us and then also for me to go back. [...]44_20May200721:17:53-0400hudabecca@RAINMALL.COM 22838 121 20_Re: Jewish Flybabies10_Larry Beck19_larry@BECKFORCE.COM31_Sun, 20 May 2007 21:26:23 -0400519_us-ascii Mazel Tov Beth,

When we we got married my father-in-law offered me a LARGE sum of money for
the wedding. I suggest I could make a great wedding for a 10th of the price
and then use the rest for the down payment on a house. He said no, the money
was for the wedding and nothing else. So what could we do? We had a big
expensive wedding and we waited years to buy a house - while the prices in
LA went through the roof (pun intended). To this day I wish he had taken my
advise. Its [...]41_20May200721:26:23-0400larry@BECKFORCE.COM 22960 161 14_Re: blue jeans16_Brenda Goldstein19_lioness31@CA.RR.COM31_Sun, 20 May 2007 18:27:16 -0700552_us-ascii Didn't Groucho say that he wouldn't join a club that *did* want him as a
member?

Larry Beck wrote:

>I don't remember who but someone said (I think it was a comedian), when
>asked about not being allowed to join a country club because it did not
>allow Jewish members, that he would not want to belong to a club that didn't
>want him as a member. I wear a suit to Shul on Shabbos but my shirt is
>colored, not white. I wear blue jeans around town and the house when I'm
>putzing around. And if I don't have [...]41_20May200718:27:16-0700lioness31@CA.RR.COM 23122 75 20_Re: Jewish Flybabies14_Bill Bernstein27_billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET31_Sun, 20 May 2007 20:32:08 -0500561_ISO-8859-1 There is an older fellow here who went through Matthausen and got
married in the DP camps. He described his wedding to me.
Someone hand wrote a kesuba. Someone loaned him a jacket and "gave" him
a ring, on condition he return it. They stood up and the rabbi read the
kesuba and they had the chuppa. Afterwards he gave back the ring and
jacket for someone else to use. Total cost of the wedding was probably
5 cents. Those people have been married over 60 years.
I think it is useful to see weddings like that as a baseline. [...]49_20May200720:32:08-0500billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET 23198 101 11_Re: Groucho18_Benjamin H Dickman27_bdickman@ALCATEL-LUCENT.COM31_Sun, 20 May 2007 21:39:05 -0400653_UTF-8 The actual quote was:
"Please accept my resignation. I don't want to belong to any club that will
accept me as a member.â€

See this website for more context:
http://www.16-9.dk/2007-02/side11_inenglish.htm

Benzion

On 5/20/2007 9:04 PM, Bill Bernstein wrote:
> It was Groucho Marx.
>
> And anyone who appreciates good beer will forgive you wearing jeans.
> Bill.
>
> Larry Beck wrote:
>
>
>>I don't remember who but someone said (I think it was a comedian), when
>>asked about not being allowed to join a country club because it did not
>>allow Jewish members, that he would not [...]49_20May200721:39:05-0400bdickman@ALCATEL-LUCENT.COM 23300 135 14_Re: blue jeans18_Benjamin H Dickman27_bdickman@ALCATEL-LUCENT.COM31_Sun, 20 May 2007 21:45:45 -0400430_UTF-8 bs'd

Sarah,

All questions of conduct (including dress) should be discussed with
your personal Rav who knows you well. P'sak varies according to who
is asking (and where they are in their development), and which community
they live in. The same Rav can permit a family to use china that formerly
were used for treif in years gone by, and prohibit a different family
from using the same set. [...]49_20May200721:45:45-0400bdickman@ALCATEL-LUCENT.COM 23436 317 24_Re: weddings (2.72/4.00)9_beth mali18_malikids@GMAIL.COM31_Sun, 20 May 2007 19:06:45 -0700599_ISO-8859-1 What are you planning for the wedding?

I think that we all have different plans. Dahlia is not marrying a
homeschooler. (but I won't disown her:})
He is studying at Yeshivat HaKotel. Both of them are 24yrs.old. He has
been living under his parents support all this time. Dahlia has been on her
own for five years now. He believes the parents plan the wedding and she
thinks the couple plan the wedding. His parents are making Alyiah and would
like the newlyweds to live with them. Dahlia thinks living away from family
(at least the first year) is ideal. [...]40_20May200719:06:45-0700malikids@GMAIL.COM 23754 95 14_Re: blue jeans10_Larry Beck19_larry@BECKFORCE.COM31_Sun, 20 May 2007 22:29:07 -0400291_us-ascii Someone just pointed out to me that Groucho Marx said the opposite of my
quote. He said he didn't want to be a member of a club that DID want him as
a member.

Oh well. Why deal with the truth when my faulty memory is much more in line
with my wishful thinking? [...]41_20May200722:29:07-0400larry@BECKFORCE.COM 23850 39 14_Re: blue jeans12_Yael Resnick22_njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM31_Sun, 20 May 2007 21:39:50 -0400257_us-ascii >he would not want to belong to a club that didn't
>want him as a member.

>It was Groucho Marx.

Right, but I think what he actually said was, "I wouldn't want to
belong to any club that WOULD have me as a member!"

Yael :)44_20May200721:39:50-0400njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM 23890 33 14_Re: blue jeans12_Yael Resnick22_njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM31_Sun, 20 May 2007 21:50:20 -0400167_us-ascii Oops - saw this from Brenda after I sent my response!

Yael

>Didn't Groucho say that he wouldn't join a club that *did* want him
>as a member?44_20May200721:50:20-0400njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM 23924 72 12_Re: weddings10_Sarah Kopp17_svkopp@012.NET.IL31_Mon, 21 May 2007 07:47:26 +0200588_ISO-8859-1 Avivah Werner wrote:
> Mazel tov on Dahlia's engagement, Beth! How exciting!
>
> >>Seems like some people think weddings are akin to school
> tuitions--something you should plan your whole life working for. <<
>
> I think most people don't plan for them their whole lives - they're
> too busy with tuition. (Or do you mean they spend the remaining half
> of their lives paying them off?) So when the weddings come, out come
> second mortgages, massive use of credit cards, and large loans.
>
> What are you planning for the wedding? I was [...]39_21May200707:47:26+0200svkopp@012.NET.IL 23997 45 14_Re: blue jeans10_Sarah Kopp17_svkopp@012.NET.IL31_Mon, 21 May 2007 07:56:46 +0200366_UTF-8 Benjamin H Dickman wrote:
> bs'd
>
> Sarah,
>
> All questions of conduct (including dress) should be discussed with
> your personal Rav who knows you well.

Well I guess that does it! No haredi Rav in Tsfat will ever tell a
family it's ok to wear blue jeans! Of course, they won't be endorsing a
choice to homeschool either. [...]39_21May200707:56:46+0200svkopp@012.NET.IL 24043 41 7_Groucho17_Maria Pereverzeva22_maria-p@ROCKETMAIL.COM31_Sun, 20 May 2007 23:41:44 -0700828_iso-8859-1 I thought Mark Twain said it first :)

Maria

>The actual quote was:
>"Please accept my resignation. I don't want to belong to any club
>that
>will
>accept me as a member.â€

>See this website for more context:
>http://www.16-9.dk/2007-02/side11_inenglish.htm

> Benzion

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by
Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org,
a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and
an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...]44_20May200723:41:44-0700maria-p@ROCKETMAIL.COM 24085 117 16_Re: Handwriting?0_17_RENALEVIN@AOL.COM29_Mon, 21 May 2007 07:21:01 EDT555_US-ASCII In a message dated 5/21/07 2:01:07 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
LISTSERV@SHAMASH.ORG writes:

> There's a local book called "Naim L'Chtov" by Chaya Kushner that's the
> standard in elementary schools here. It divides the letters into similar
> shapes, and suggests games for getting kids used to the shapes. It's very
> well done, overall, and teaches a more proper writing style. If you have
> anyone visiting, it's easy to get at any store that sells school books to
> secular or National Religious schools.
>
> [...]37_21May200707:21:01EDTRENALEVIN@AOL.COM 24203 99 10_Re: denim?0_17_RENALEVIN@AOL.COM29_Mon, 21 May 2007 07:30:04 EDT472_US-ASCII In a message dated 5/21/07 2:01:07 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
LISTSERV@SHAMASH.ORG writes:

> In the early years of homeschooling we got a lot of flack from many people
> about everything we did. Now that they know we're serious they accept us for
> who we are. As long as I don't feel that my boys have to marry Beis Yaakov
> girls it really doesn't matter (I only worry about my boys because HaShem
> never gave me any daughters).
> [...]37_21May200707:30:04EDTRENALEVIN@AOL.COM 24303 111 13_Re: weddings?0_17_RENALEVIN@AOL.COM29_Mon, 21 May 2007 07:39:38 EDT542_US-ASCII In a message dated 5/21/07 2:01:07 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
LISTSERV@SHAMASH.ORG writes:

> When we start thinking of sit down dinners and bands
> as baseline and anything beyond that as extras we fall into a trap of
> ever-increasing expenses. It isnt necessary. It is counter-productive.
>

hey, what's wrong with a band? our 6 piece band (26 years ago this week)
cost $50, and that's because, even though we had only 80 people at our wedding,
my husband is a musician, so we had a huge band!!! [...]37_21May200707:39:38EDTRENALEVIN@AOL.COM 24415 63 29_Re: juggling responsibilities13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Mon, 21 May 2007 05:11:49 -0700569_iso-8859-1 >>I also find that we spend huge amounts of time in preparing for our social/outing days. Two hours spend with friends can, in some cases, take the entire day. I'm trying to get to the point where that will be the very rare exception.<<

We used to do lots more stuff outside of the house, in the name of having a stimulating homeschooling experience. Every year for the last three years, I've cut down more and more on outside activities, as I've realized that they too often became a source of pressure. It started feeling like every day or two [...]44_21May200705:11:49-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 24479 238 29_Re: juggling responsibilities13_Sharon Brooks23_Sharonajb@SBCGLOBAL.NET31_Mon, 21 May 2007 07:39:59 -0700456_iso-8859-1 Hah! I really appreciate what you're saying here, Avivah. When I was pregnant or at home with a newborn, I had to eliminate almost all outings and social life in the name of reduced pressure. I really couldn't be a decent parent at that time and still get us through these outings. Still, it's not so easy when you have this great sense that your children need to get out and see other kids, especially if the other kids don't come to you. [...]45_21May200707:39:59-0700Sharonajb@SBCGLOBAL.NET 24718 108 25_the myth of socialization13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Mon, 21 May 2007 08:02:54 -0700583_iso-8859-1 It wasn't until less than two years ago that I totally let go of even vestiges of the socialization myth. The idea is that homeschoolers don't have socialization opportunities, and too often, we rush to prove to others that yes, we do, we have lots of stuff - playgroups, academic meets, play dates, trips.... And that's how this question is usually answered. But there is a part of that which even most homeschoolers don't question, that kids really need to spend time with other kids. We think about how much time they need with other kids, but don't usually think [...]44_21May200708:02:54-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 24827 33 14_Re: blue jeans13_Sharon Brooks23_Sharonajb@SBCGLOBAL.NET31_Mon, 21 May 2007 08:20:43 -0700534_utf-8 ouch!

I've heard something of that sort before. Why is it like that?

sharon

----- Original Message -----
From: "Sarah Kopp"

> Actually we have found that when it comes to hashkofa issues, Israel is
> so intensely conformity-minded, no rabbi here will ever endorse any idea
> that sits outside the status quo. Keeping within the status quo is very
> important. It has been suggested to us, by more than one Rav, that we
> would be happier back in America.
> [...]45_21May200708:20:43-0700Sharonajb@SBCGLOBAL.NET 24861 74 37_Re: Recommendations for Math Programs8_cillakat18_cillakat@GMAIL.COM31_Mon, 21 May 2007 12:55:40 -0230573_ISO-8859-1 << strongly suggest not using any curriculums until about the third
grade level, since you can>>

*you* can:) more on that in a minute.

<< cover all the math until that point naturally and easily doing
things around the house with the kids, playing with manipulatives,
games, etc.>>

while in theory I so strongly agree with you. totally. thoroughly.
In practice, if it's something I have to put the mental energy into
figuring out, it just isn't going to happen, at least with somethings
- academics being one of them. [...]40_21May200712:55:40-0230cillakat@GMAIL.COM 24936 53 13_Re: weddings?10_Sarah Kopp17_svkopp@012.NET.IL31_Mon, 21 May 2007 18:04:13 +0200613_ISO-8859-1 RENALEVIN@AOL.COM wrote:
> In a message dated 5/21/07 2:01:07 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> LISTSERV@SHAMASH.ORG writes:
>
>
>> When we start thinking of sit down dinners and bands
>> as baseline and anything beyond that as extras we fall into a trap of
>> ever-increasing expenses. It isnt necessary. It is counter-productive.
>
>
> I tell people, it is worth it to have a good band and good pictures,
This is sooooo important! We did a pretty slim budget wedding - $5,000,
including the dress and suit, in the shul where my husband grew up, no
wedding hall. [...]39_21May200718:04:13+0200svkopp@012.NET.IL 24990 57 29_Re: the myth of socialization10_Sarah Kopp17_svkopp@012.NET.IL31_Mon, 21 May 2007 18:17:26 +0200551_ISO-8859-1 Avivah Werner wrote:
>
>
> I'm not saying that they don't interact with others who aren't family
> members, or don't have any friends - they do. But the idea that they
> need to spend time with other kids is just not valid to me anymore.
>
I'd love to believe this but it seems I have one little girl who is very
dependent on outside socialization. Do you think it depends on the kids'
personalities, or is my dd9 still deschooling? I ask because I am really
trying to figure it out - she is not enjoying [...]39_21May200718:17:26+0200svkopp@012.NET.IL 25048 493 29_Re: the myth of socialization13_Sharon Brooks23_Sharonajb@SBCGLOBAL.NET31_Mon, 21 May 2007 10:10:11 -0700536_iso-8859-1 I don't think I've come as far on this thought path as you have, but it's definitely been on my mind of late. My oldest had a very good friend and I limited that relationship to its death because it wasn't good for him in many ways. Not sure if that was the right choice to this day. Since then he's been less excited about being social, but still likes to see other kids when possible. But my kids rarely ask for play dates anymore. We accomplish so much more, and are so much more peaceful without the social demands. [...]45_21May200710:10:11-0700Sharonajb@SBCGLOBAL.NET 25542 195 29_Re: juggling responsibilities6_Shayna17_ssheiny@YAHOO.COM31_Mon, 21 May 2007 12:11:09 -0700392_iso-8859-1 I've taken suggestions from this list, and find that
the kids certainly help more (with encouragement!).
I've also learned that at this point, if I want DD to
clean up, she's going to kvetch. So I tell her I'm
not listening to it (even though I'm there cleaning
with her) and eventually she stops - but so long as
she's cleaning, I won't comment more on it. [...]39_21May200712:11:09-0700ssheiny@YAHOO.COM 25738 41 37_Re: israeli conformity was:blue jeans10_Sarah Kopp17_svkopp@012.NET.IL31_Mon, 21 May 2007 20:15:08 +0200613_UTF-8 I think its a hold-over from the socialist founding ideals.

Sarah

Sharon Brooks wrote:
> ouch!
>
> I've heard something of that sort before. Why is it like that?
>
> sharon
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sarah Kopp"
>
>> Actually we have found that when it comes to hashkofa issues, Israel
>> is so intensely conformity-minded, no rabbi here will ever endorse
>> any idea that sits outside the status quo. Keeping within the status
>> quo is very important. It has been suggested to us, by more than one
>> Rav, that we [...]39_21May200720:15:08+0200svkopp@012.NET.IL 25780 165 29_Re: the myth of socialization10_Louise Fox20_fox.louise@GMAIL.COM31_Mon, 21 May 2007 23:15:58 +0300422_ISO-8859-1 I think that in families with several children, they get a lot of
"socialization" with each other automatically. Where there is only one child
or the oldest child is still very young (3 or 4), they are missing this
dynamic. As soon as there is a younger sibling who is old enough to interact
with (not necessarily play with!) then our kids are getting a lot of what
they "need" in the home. [...]42_21May200723:15:58+0300fox.louise@GMAIL.COM 25946 113 37_Re: israeli conformity was:blue jeans10_Louise Fox20_fox.louise@GMAIL.COM31_Mon, 21 May 2007 23:28:02 +0300506_ISO-8859-1 Yes, it's one of the things I feel like I'm constantly fighting in this
country. I actually like trying to blow people's pre-conceived notions and
shake their assumptions. Nearly 10 years ago when I was pregnant with my
daughter, I got a real kick out of watching people's jaws drop when in
answer to the perpetually repeated question of where I was going to give
birth, I said "at home". (And that was usually without people realizing that
I was also attempting a VBAC!) [...]42_21May200723:28:02+0300fox.louise@GMAIL.COM 26060 50 14_Re: blue jeans14_Jennifer Moran20_jrmoran@UCHICAGO.EDU31_Mon, 21 May 2007 15:29:43 -0500568_us-ascii Sarah wrote:
>I prefer my kids not wear jeans with something written
across the tuchas too, but that is not an issue I am going
to get into with a teenager. I will surely voice my opinion
but I won't force the issue. These kids are being told by
their religious community that they are bums if they don't
dress and think they way they are told to dress and think.
My big boys reject this attitude and thank G-d they didn't
reject the Torah along with it like some of their peers.
This is what propelled me into homeschooling.< [...]42_21May200715:29:43-0500jrmoran@UCHICAGO.EDU 26111 76 37_Re: israeli conformity was:blue jeans18_Benjamin H Dickman27_bdickman@ALCATEL-LUCENT.COM31_Mon, 21 May 2007 16:33:09 -0400594_UTF-8 bs'd

Sarah,

You don't need to use the Tsfat rabbanim as your family mentors.
You can use them for Shabbos shailahs. But there are American
rabbanim in Israel who would probably willing to meet with you
and speak with you as necessary. Perhaps Aish HaTorah would have
a lead for you, or Ohr Somayach or Neve Yerushalayim rabbanim.
You must get into a situation where you can grow in Torah and Mitzvot
as a family, and you must have a Rav/guide to do it. You can have
an initial face-to-face meeting and then meet via phone for follow-ups once
or [...]49_21May200716:33:09-0400bdickman@ALCATEL-LUCENT.COM 26188 391 29_Re: the myth of socialization15_lmcohn@juno.com15_lmcohn@JUNO.COM29_Mon, 21 May 2007 20:32:51 GMT548_- But don't you think it's GOOD for kids to be social? To interact with others of the same rough age, to navigate relationships, learn how to interact. I mean, in most parts of the world, that's going to be a part of adult life. It seems to me rather closed off to not want play dates - I'm not judging anyone in particular, just sharing my thoughts. My kids like being with other kids and they learn skills in those settings that they wouldn't otherwise learn - interpersonal skills. My daughter, Eliana, is shy and doesn't like to play with [...]35_21May200720:32:51GMTlmcohn@JUNO.COM 26580 169 17_Re: socialization13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Mon, 21 May 2007 13:41:54 -0700348_iso-8859-1 >>I find it very difficult to chat with other mothers in our neighbourhood.
Mostly they seem to chat about what's wrong with the schools and the awful
things they're having to deal with regarding the bus rides or the teachers
or whatever. And they can't talk about that with me, and I can't talk about
that with them.<< [...]44_21May200713:41:54-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 26750 464 29_Re: juggling responsibilities9_beth mali18_malikids@GMAIL.COM31_Mon, 21 May 2007 13:41:58 -0700548_ISO-8859-1 I have noticed that my kids are by nature very different. I have some
people pleaser's and some more on the selfish side. Some maintain cleaner
living spaces than others. I am more visual and feel best when I see my
stuff. I am lost when it is all put away in drawers and cabinets. Our
clutter drives my husband nuts (Not that I don't like a clean home) I'm just
not that attached to making it my highest priority. Flylady helps me with
my attitude. I do have more help and less nagging when I am keeping to a
[...]40_21May200713:41:58-0700malikids@GMAIL.COM 27215 60 29_Re: the myth of socialization13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Mon, 21 May 2007 13:53:34 -0700336_iso-8859-1 >>But don't you think it's GOOD for kids to be social? To interact with others of the same rough age, to navigate relationships, learn how to interact.<<

Sure I do. I just don't believe that it can only happen via relationships outside of the home.

>>I guess I'm not seeing what's so bad about all that.<< [...]44_21May200713:53:34-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 27276 70 17_Re: socialization10_Louise Fox20_fox.louise@GMAIL.COM31_Mon, 21 May 2007 23:50:46 +0300360_ISO-8859-1 I wouldn't mind either, but I guess they assume I wouldn't want to hear
their woes. Or perhaps they would feel inadequate talking to me about these
things, as I don't have these problems. Perhaps they think I would feel
superior to them, or perhaps it would make them feel inferior. I don't know,
I am just speculating...
Louise [...]42_21May200723:50:46+0300fox.louise@GMAIL.COM 27347 67 29_Re: juggling responsibilities13_Sharon Brooks23_Sharonajb@SBCGLOBAL.NET31_Mon, 21 May 2007 13:57:42 -0700532_iso-8859-1 From: "Shayna"

> I find my most challenging time - and if anyone has
> suggestions, I'd LOVE to hear them!! - is trying to
> get everyone out the door. It doesn't matter what
> it's for, whether we're just going to the park, to
> visit family or friends, on Shabbat, or to some
> outing. We're a disorganized mess, have to argue with
> the kids to finish getting ready, then they're ready
> before we are and they're impatient (which tends to
> lead to bickering). [...]45_21May200713:57:42-0700Sharonajb@SBCGLOBAL.NET 27415 78 11_unschooling13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Mon, 21 May 2007 14:13:39 -0700590_iso-8859-1 >>Which brings up another question. Who among you has done (or is doing)
unschooling (at least as a major component of your learning time)? What is
your experience with trying to work it into a Torah education and family?<<

I was a strong proponent of unschooling when my kids were younger (and that in no way implies that I don't think it can be great for older kids) - in the archives you can find discussion about this. I've had difficulty with the way unschooling has been defined by many, moving away, I believe, from John Holt's definition (as understood [...]44_21May200714:13:39-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 27494 255 37_Re: israeli conformity was:blue jeans13_Sharon Brooks23_Sharonajb@SBCGLOBAL.NET31_Mon, 21 May 2007 14:00:00 -0700634_iso-8859-1 Do you sense that some communities are more open to it that others?
sharon
----- Original Message -----
From: Louise Fox
To: TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG
Sent: Monday, May 21, 2007 1:28 PM
Subject: Re: [TORCH-D] israeli conformity was:blue jeans

Yes, it's one of the things I feel like I'm constantly fighting in this country. I actually like trying to blow people's pre-conceived notions and shake their assumptions. Nearly 10 years ago when I was pregnant with my daughter, I got a real kick out of watching people's jaws drop when in answer to the perpetually repeated question of where I was going [...]45_21May200714:00:00-0700Sharonajb@SBCGLOBAL.NET 27750 458 17_Re: socialization14_Malkie Swidler18_malkie18@GMAIL.COM31_Tue, 22 May 2007 00:04:23 +0300640_ISO-8859-1 My experience has been different from Louise's. Granted, I can't participate
in the pacifier/diaper/school conversations. But when I say that we
homeschool, people usually light up. They've read an article, are thinking
about doing it themselves, or are otherwise really positive about it (once
someone lit up because he had just taken his kid out of school, and was
thrilled to know there was someone to talk to nearby). Some people have even
reported back to me that when homeschooling came up in conversation (usually
from a newspaper article), and someone is negative on it, they tell them to
go [...]40_22May200700:04:23+0300malkie18@GMAIL.COM 28209 49 52_Finding a Rav, was israeli conformity was:blue jeans13_Sharon Brooks23_Sharonajb@SBCGLOBAL.NET31_Mon, 21 May 2007 14:16:05 -0700326_utf-8 From: "Benjamin H Dickman"

> You must get into a situation where you can grow in Torah and Mitzvot
> as a family, and you must have a Rav/guide to do it. You can have
> an initial face-to-face meeting and then meet via phone for follow-ups
> once
> or twice a year. [...]45_21May200714:16:05-0700Sharonajb@SBCGLOBAL.NET 28259 75 29_Re: the myth of socialization14_Malkie Swidler18_malkie18@GMAIL.COM31_Tue, 22 May 2007 00:17:17 +0300568_ISO-8859-1 I think that ultimately it isn't a matter of good or bad, but what works for
you.

But the question isn't really about good or bad, it's about necessary or
not.

We go to a homeschool support group anywhere between once a month and once a
week. Mostly, we go so that I can play with my friends. Sure, the kids have
a good time too, and they play in Hebrew and they interact with others and
have their friends and are exposed to all sorts of cultural Israeli things
and wholesome secular kids and that's all nice and good. [...]40_22May200700:17:17+0300malkie18@GMAIL.COM 28335 58 17_Re: Finding a Rav13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Mon, 21 May 2007 14:20:20 -0700338_iso-8859-1 Goodness, this list has been keeping me busy with approving messages and then responding all day long! :)) When are you all going to start making your cheesecakes?? My kids are going to have forgotten what the front of my face looks like by the end of the day - they just see my back at the computer when they walk by. :) [...]44_21May200714:20:20-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 28394 115 13_Re: weddings?14_Malkie Swidler18_malkie18@GMAIL.COM31_Tue, 22 May 2007 00:28:28 +0300533_ISO-8859-1 I'm really into live music. My nephews, however, when they could not get the
band of their choice for their bar mitzvah (they are twins, and Shlock Rock
was on tour in the US right then), decided they wanted a DJ. He a was
yeshivishe guy from Bnei Brak and he was pretty good. He had good dance
mixes, and we all had a great time on the dance floor. We are a dancing sort
of family, though, it's something we plan for and focus on and love to do.
It's pretty much how we define a simcha-- an excuse [...]40_22May200700:28:28+0300malkie18@GMAIL.COM 28510 56 29_Re: juggling responsibilities14_Malkie Swidler18_malkie18@GMAIL.COM31_Tue, 22 May 2007 01:15:32 +0300625_ISO-8859-1 Are you familiar with Dora the Explorer? My little ones watch it religiously
at their grandparents' house. I use the songs to get the little ones out the
door (bathroom, car, Dedushka's house! Bathroom, car, Dedushka's house!,
repeat ad nauseum). I strongly dislike Dora, but she is very helpful in
showing how to relate information to young children. They really respond
well to chunking (breaking down tasks into smaller parts so they are more
manageable), the rhythm of the songs, and the repetition, so they can see
for themselves how close we are to completing the task. And then we [...]40_22May200701:15:32+0300malkie18@GMAIL.COM 28567 215 29_Re: juggling responsibilities9_beth mali18_malikids@GMAIL.COM31_Mon, 21 May 2007 15:33:14 -0700610_ISO-8859-1 We do unschooling at least until high school. Then the kids do a
through-the-mail high school diploma so that they can attend the community
college without age restrictions, then either they finish a two year degree
or transfer to the four year university. That is what we've been doing for
four of the kids already. (Two to go) As for Torah studies, We were not
always observant. Unschooling is probably the most influential thing that
brought us to Torah. One year (about 5 maybe 7 years ago) we loosely
studied "The ways of our people". The internet was instrumental as [...]40_21May200715:33:14-0700malikids@GMAIL.COM 28783 151 17_Re: Finding a Rav9_beth mali18_malikids@GMAIL.COM31_Mon, 21 May 2007 15:42:02 -0700560_ISO-8859-1 My cheesecake is just out of the oven! And I've been writing all day, too.
Beth

On 5/21/07, Avivah Werner wrote:
>
> Goodness, this list has been keeping me busy with approving messages and
> then responding all day long! :)) When are you all going to start making
> your cheesecakes?? My kids are going to have forgotten what the front of my
> face looks like by the end of the day - they just see my back at the
> computer when they walk by. :)
>
> >>Don't you think that the act of [...]40_21May200715:42:02-0700malikids@GMAIL.COM 28935 61 35_cheesecake and Shavuos preparations13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Mon, 21 May 2007 16:20:23 -0700575_iso-8859-1 My cheesecake is finished, too (vanilla)! And the spinach cheese casserole, tuna mushroom quiche, oatmeal chocolate chip cookies, peanut butter bars, and the lasagna is on the way. That's not to say that I did any of it - I didn't! My two oldest girls (10.5 and 12)did it while I whiled away the afternoon on the computer, taking a nap, sorting laundry, and actually getting around to two business things that I've had on hold for a week. It's like having little elves. :) They also cleaned and kashered the oven and cleaned the kitchen before they started - [...]44_21May200716:20:23-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 28997 286 29_Re: the myth of socialization15_lmcohn@juno.com15_lmcohn@JUNO.COM29_Tue, 22 May 2007 01:14:31 GMT628_- I hear what you're all saying and they are all valid points. I just think that there is something very different about socializing with non-family members that is valuable and, frankly, necessary in the world at-large.

Lynne Meredith Schreiber
lmcohn@juno.com

-- Louise Fox wrote:
I think that in families with several children, they get a lot of "socialization" with each other automatically. Where there is only one child or the oldest child is still very young (3 or 4), they are missing this dynamic. As soon as there is a younger sibling who is old enough to interact with [...]35_22May200701:14:31GMTlmcohn@JUNO.COM 29284 74 39_Re: cheesecake and Shavuos preparations14_Bill Bernstein27_billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET31_Mon, 21 May 2007 21:31:27 -0500589_windows-1252 Wow. I've heard of kashering the kitchen before Pesach, but to do it
before Shavuous too! Now that's frum!
Bill Bernstein, whose oven gets cleaned once a year, need it or not.

Avivah Werner wrote:

> My cheesecake is finished, too (vanilla)! And the spinach cheese
> casserole, tuna mushroom quiche, oatmeal chocolate chip cookies,
> peanut butter bars, and the lasagna is on the way. That's not to say
> that I did any of it - I didn't! My two oldest girls (10.5 and 12)did
> it while I whiled away the afternoon on the computer, taking a [...]49_21May200721:31:27-0500billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET 29359 75 30_Re: Finding a Rav, Los Angeles18_Benjamin H Dickman27_bdickman@ALCATEL-LUCENT.COM31_Mon, 21 May 2007 22:23:32 -0400653_UTF-8 bs'd

Sharon,

In the Fairfax/Beverly area of LA is the Jewish Learning Exchange,
run by Rabbi Czatnik, whose personal number is (323)-931-5004.
The JLE is on 7223 Beverly Blvd, phone 323-857-0923.
The website is www.laje.blogspot.com .

I hear he's very good. Give the JLE a call and try to drop in.

success to you,
Benzion Dickman

On 5/21/2007 5:16 PM, Sharon Brooks wrote:
> From: "Benjamin H Dickman"
>
>
>>You must get into a situation where you can grow in Torah and Mitzvot
>>as a family, and you must have a Rav/guide to do it. You can have
[...]49_21May200722:23:32-0400bdickman@ALCATEL-LUCENT.COM 29435 60 39_Re: cheesecake and Shavuos preparations13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Mon, 21 May 2007 20:14:29 -0700357_iso-8859-1 I guess the poorly kept secret is out - we're frum. Sigh. A person can only hide for so long. We kasher the oven between milchigs and fleishigs so we don't have to worry about double wrapping. Some things just don't cook well when covered. And think how much aluminum foil I save from the landfills - very environmentally friendly strategy. [...]44_21May200720:14:29-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 29496 70 29_Re: the myth of socialization13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Mon, 21 May 2007 20:34:40 -0700575_iso-8859-1 I get the impression that you think it's being said that socializing is only limited to the family. That's really not the message; it's that family provides the ideal setting to learn the necessary social skills to function well as a healthy adult. What degree of socializing is necessary outside of the family to be successful in the world at large is a matter of opinion. It would be hard to keep a child from interacting from anyone outside of the family at all times, even if you tried - with guests, errands, trips. let alone visiting with neighbors and [...]44_21May200720:34:40-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 29567 127 39_Re: cheesecake and Shavuos preparations14_Hadas laureano20_hadasl@SBCGLOBAL.NET31_Mon, 21 May 2007 20:34:58 -0700679_iso-8859-1 Dear Avivah....as one who does a variety of enchiladas
on Shavuot...besides my cheesecake inventions.....I
would LOVE to have your recipes for those wonderful
things you mentioned!! Hag Sameach to all.....Hadas
--- Bill Bernstein
wrote:

> Wow. I've heard of kashering the kitchen before
> Pesach, but to do it
> before Shavuous too! Now that's frum!
> Bill Bernstein, whose oven gets cleaned once a year,
> need it or not.
>
> Avivah Werner wrote:
>
> > My cheesecake is finished, too (vanilla)! And the
> spinach cheese
> > casserole, tuna mushroom quiche, oatmeal chocolate
> [...]42_21May200720:34:58-0700hadasl@SBCGLOBAL.NET 29695 80 39_Re: cheesecake and Shavuos preparations13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Mon, 21 May 2007 20:47:27 -0700418_iso-8859-1 Someone else's menu always sounds tasty, doesn't it?!?

These aren't healthy recipes, they are recipes we make on special occasions, so no one needs to point out why they are dangerous to your health. :) They are heavily weighted towards dairy, but that's because of Shavuos - during the year I don't make dairy more than once a week at the very most, so everyone enjoys something different now. [...]44_21May200720:47:27-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 29776 128 30_Re: Finding a Rav, Los Angeles14_Hadas laureano20_hadasl@SBCGLOBAL.NET31_Mon, 21 May 2007 20:40:10 -0700647_iso-8859-1 Sharon.....My friends in our hood tell me that Rabbi
Tauber is also a really approachable and compassionate
Rav...who is wonderful to speak to on many
levels.....Hadas
--- Benjamin H Dickman
wrote:

> bs'd
>
> Sharon,
>
> In the Fairfax/Beverly area of LA is the Jewish
> Learning Exchange,
> run by Rabbi Czatnik, whose personal number is
> (323)-931-5004.
> The JLE is on 7223 Beverly Blvd, phone 323-857-0923.
> The website is www.laje.blogspot.com .
>
> I hear he's very good. Give the JLE a call and try
> to drop in.
>
> success to [...]42_21May200720:40:10-0700hadasl@SBCGLOBAL.NET 29905 151 30_Re: Finding a Rav, Los Angeles13_Sharon Brooks23_Sharonajb@SBCGLOBAL.NET31_Mon, 21 May 2007 21:58:45 -0700309_iso-8859-1 These are two special Rebbeim. I've briefly met one, and used to attend a
regular shiur with the other. But I'm just not sure what to even look for
in a Rav. If it's not a halachic Rav I'm seeking, aren't I just as well off
seeking out a good Rebbetzin or teacher?
Hmmm.
Sharon [...]45_21May200721:58:45-0700Sharonajb@SBCGLOBAL.NET 30057 197 39_Re: cheesecake and Shavuos preparations13_Sharon Brooks23_Sharonajb@SBCGLOBAL.NET31_Mon, 21 May 2007 22:13:09 -0700507_iso-8859-1 I know this is off topic, Avivah, and I hate to waste your time with it but your timing is strange. Someone just discussed this with me and I was really surprised. Isn't this standard practice? I can't remember what I did when I was single and following my inadequate knowledge of ashkenazi halacha. But since I've been married and we've had a self-cleaning oven, we always kasher in between. Is there any major posek who doesn't consider it necessary to do this (or double wrap)?
sharon [...]45_21May200722:13:09-0700Sharonajb@SBCGLOBAL.NET 30255 36 37_Re: israeli conformity was:blue jeans10_Sarah Kopp17_svkopp@012.NET.IL31_Tue, 22 May 2007 09:31:08 +0200245_UTF-8 Benjamin H Dickman wrote:
> You must get into a situation where you can grow in Torah and Mitzvot
> as a family, and you must have a Rav/guide to do it.
>

I'll forward this to my husband ;)

Chag sameach!

Sarah39_22May200709:31:08+0200svkopp@012.NET.IL 30292 56 17_Re: socialization10_Sarah Kopp17_svkopp@012.NET.IL31_Tue, 22 May 2007 09:37:06 +0200557_ISO-8859-1 Avivah Werner wrote:
> >>I find it very difficult to chat with other mothers in our
> neighbourhood.
> Mostly they seem to chat about what's wrong with the schools and the awful
> things they're having to deal with regarding the bus rides or the teachers
> or whatever. And they can't talk about that with me, and I can't talk
> about
> that with them.<<
>
> I don't mind listening to people tell me how terrible the schools are
> - which they follow by telling me how lucky I am to be homeschooling.
> It's [...]39_22May200709:37:06+0200svkopp@012.NET.IL 30349 88 29_Re: the myth of socialization10_Sarah Kopp17_svkopp@012.NET.IL31_Tue, 22 May 2007 09:53:23 +0200537_ISO-8859-1 Avivah Werner wrote:
> >>But don't you think it's GOOD for kids to be social? To interact
> with others of the same rough age, to navigate relationships, learn
> how to interact.<<
>
> Sure I do. I just don't believe that it can only happen via
> relationships outside of the home.
>
> >>I guess I'm not seeing what's so bad about all that.<<
>
> The point isn't that it's bad - the point is that it isn't as
> necessary as we've made it out to be as a society. Life isn't black
> and [...]39_22May200709:53:23+0200svkopp@012.NET.IL 30438 138 37_Re: israeli conformity was:blue jeans10_Sarah Kopp17_svkopp@012.NET.IL31_Tue, 22 May 2007 09:56:29 +0200714_ISO-8859-1 Here in Tsfat it goes by neighborhoods: the more English speakers, the
more tolerance and open-mindedness (from my perspective - I think the
Israeli perspective is that we are more self-indulgent and into
narishkeit.) The Old City of Tsfat is mostly English-speaking and is
very different from the Maor Chayim or Canaan neighborhoods.

Sarah

Sharon Brooks wrote:
> Do you sense that some communities are more open to it that others?
> sharon
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Louise Fox
> *To:* TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG
> *Sent:* Monday, May 21, 2007 1:28 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [TORCH-D] [...]39_22May200709:56:29+0200svkopp@012.NET.IL 30577 33 15_Re: unschooling10_Sarah Kopp17_svkopp@012.NET.IL31_Tue, 22 May 2007 09:58:57 +0200229_ISO-8859-1 Avivah Werner wrote:
> >
> For example, on Friday mornings, I often put the parsha cassettes on
> for the younger kids - they learn in a natural kind of way.
Which parsha cassettes do you like?

Sarah39_22May200709:58:57+0200svkopp@012.NET.IL 30611 41 29_Re: the myth of socialization10_Sarah Kopp17_svkopp@012.NET.IL31_Tue, 22 May 2007 10:08:36 +0200301_ISO-8859-1 Avivah Werner wrote:
> It would be hard to keep a child from interacting from anyone outside
> of the family at all times, even if you tried - with guests, errands,
> trips. let alone visiting with neighbors and friends - unless you
> locked him in a room until he was 18. [...]39_22May200710:08:36+0200svkopp@012.NET.IL 30653 321 18_Re: some questions0_17_RENALEVIN@AOL.COM29_Tue, 22 May 2007 08:53:20 EDT637_US-ASCII I cannot copy/paste the quotes I am responding to here, because of the format
of the massive digest, so I am ad libbing/paraphrasing here.....

1. Someone here said something about Rena and Avivah being structured (or
organized or some such).......DISCLAIMER: I am NOT a structured person by
nature. I struggle with structure and self-discipline constantly....that being said,
I am an older, experienced parent, I know who I am and my place in the world
(most of the time) and have a certain outlook and way of doing things that
filters down on a regular basis, despite my struggles with structure. [...]37_22May200708:53:20EDTRENALEVIN@AOL.COM 30975 49 14_Re: blue jeans10_Sarah Kopp17_svkopp@012.NET.IL31_Tue, 22 May 2007 10:10:38 +0200576_ISO-8859-1 Jennifer Moran wrote:
> I was going to write to you off-list, but I decided to say
> it publicly. I just wanted to say what an inspiration it is
> to read posts from someone who really loves their teenagers
> and sticks up for them. When I was teaching high school, I
> encountered a few parents who were really embarrassed by
> their teens, to the point of resenting them and feeling
> alientated from them. Sure, their teens were sometimes
> dressing funny or acting silly, but it was all quite
> superficial. (And, generally, the [...]39_22May200710:10:38+0200svkopp@012.NET.IL 31025 36 17_Re: Finding a Rav10_Sarah Kopp17_svkopp@012.NET.IL31_Tue, 22 May 2007 10:01:03 +0200331_ISO-8859-1 Avivah Werner wrote:
> Goodness, this list has been keeping me busy with approving messages
> and then responding all day long! :)) When are you all going to
> start making your cheesecakes??
I can't believe you asked this Avivah. Aren't your kids making the
cheesecakes?

Chag sameach!

Sarah39_22May200710:01:03+0200svkopp@012.NET.IL 31062 117 29_Re: the myth of socialization13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Tue, 22 May 2007 06:30:52 -0700436_iso-8859-1 >>Remember Animal Farm?<<

Last week at dinner after coming home from a recent baseball game of my older son (7th and 8th graders, local frum league), we were discussing some of the behavior of some of the boys (not positive). Dd12 said, "Now I understand how all the boys on the island ended up killing each other." (Referring to Lord of the Flies, which I would like to do as a read aloud in a couple of years.) [...]44_22May200706:30:52-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 31180 82 20_Re: parsha cassettes13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Tue, 22 May 2007 06:32:31 -0700513_iso-8859-1 >>Which parsha cassettes do you like?<<

I use Rabbi Juravel, and recently heard that he has done all of the parshiyos through the end - when we bought them, he had only done through parshas Vayikra. Rabbi Goldstein's cassettes weren't well received by my kids.

Avivah

Sarah Kopp wrote:
Avivah Werner wrote:
> >
> For example, on Friday mornings, I often put the parsha cassettes on
> for the younger kids - they learn in a natural kind of way. [...]44_22May200706:32:31-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 31263 110 17_Re: socialization10_Louise Fox20_fox.louise@GMAIL.COM31_Tue, 22 May 2007 16:34:47 +0300553_ISO-8859-1 What I meant is I just don't seem to have any common ground with many of my
neighbours or other things to talk about with them, as they only ever seem
to moan about the schools, and don't seem to have any other topics of
conversation!!

Most people here seem to think homeschooling is crazy because they can't
imagine wanting to spend all day with their kids. They can't get their heads
round the fact that I like being with my kids all day every day, that they
are wonderful company and I enjoy being with them. [...]42_22May200716:34:47+0300fox.louise@GMAIL.COM 31374 96 17_Re: socialization13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Tue, 22 May 2007 06:41:47 -0700487_iso-8859-1 Wait until you've been doing this a few years and see how people react then. It helps alot to have years of homeschooling behind you and kids who have clearly done well. Multiply the impact when it's a family of kids like that, and the naysayers aren't so sure of themselves anymore - especially as their kids, and their friends kids have gotten older and are not becoming more lovable human beings, and they are seeing more and more of the effects of the school system. [...]44_22May200706:41:47-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 31471 41 16_socialization...15_Michelle Miller25_michelletamar@HOTMAIL.COM31_Tue, 22 May 2007 07:27:28 -0700471_- I don't think it's necessarily "good" or "bad" for kids to socialize in
groups or with same age peers. Children have their own personalities and
proclivities in that regard. Personally, I never wanted to be part of a
"group" and I gravitated toward work that didn't require it. I always had
one or two close girlfriends (still do). Professionally, I ended up working
as a hairdresser (one on one contact) and personal training for women
(ditto). [...]47_22May200707:27:28-0700michelletamar@HOTMAIL.COM 31513 85 15_Re: unschooling6_Zohari20_najova@EARTHLINK.NET31_Tue, 22 May 2007 08:33:24 -0600586_US-ASCII > Avivah Werner wrote:
>>>
>> For example, on Friday mornings, I often put the parsha cassettes on
>> for the younger kids - they learn in a natural kind of way.
> Which parsha cassettes do you like?
>
> Sarah

Shoshana Z. here... We use the Living Sidrah by Rabbi Levi Goldstein. They
are hands-down amazing! You can see all of his stuff on-line at
http://www.thelivingsidrah.com. I suggest ordering directly from him. He
is a total mentch and then all of the money goes to him with no mark-up. In
fact, he just mailed me the next set [...]42_22May200708:33:24-0600najova@EARTHLINK.NET 31599 86 36_Re: Rabbi Goldstein parsha cassettes13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Tue, 22 May 2007 10:08:50 -0700452_iso-8859-1 >>Shoshana Z. here... We use the Living Sidrah by Rabbi Levi Goldstein. They are hands-down amazing! You can see all of his stuff on-line at http://www.thelivingsidrah.com. I suggest ordering directly from him. He is a total mentch and then all of the money goes to him with no mark-up. In fact, he just mailed me the next set of CDs 3-day select because I didn't get around to ordering them in time to start sefer Bamidbar. Nice! :)<< [...]44_22May200710:08:50-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 31686 79 39_Re: cheesecake and Shavuos preparations14_Gaby Neuburger17_ylb@NEUBURGER.ORG31_Tue, 22 May 2007 09:51:11 -0700483_ISO-8859-1 I have learnt the same way, but it's only necessary to cover, not to
double-wrap. Double-wrapping is only needed for a treif oven. That's what
I've been told, anyway. I generally try to keep my oven parev and only make
it milchig or fleishig if I need to cook fleishig or milchig uncovered.
Since I don't have a self-cleaning oven I try to avoid this as much as
possible. Unfortunately sometimes something leaks so I end up having to
kasher anyway. [...]39_22May200709:51:11-0700ylb@NEUBURGER.ORG 31766 72 37_Re: Recommendations for Math Programs14_Gaby Neuburger17_ylb@NEUBURGER.ORG31_Tue, 22 May 2007 10:03:48 -0700562_ISO-8859-1 Thank you all for your suggestions, I will start investigating them as soon
as we've had Shavuos, then packed & done hundreds of to-do list items, then
been to Australia for my sister's wedding... phew. I just don't have the
time for it all - we're leaving a week from Sunday!

Katherine - I seem to be very much like you, although my strengths are not
in birthing etc. I know I need structure, but hate putting it in place, and
struggle to keep to it. If I don't have structure, it doesn't get done. I
would love to hear [...]39_22May200710:03:48-0700ylb@NEUBURGER.ORG 31839 83 29_Re: juggling responsibilities6_Shayna17_ssheiny@YAHOO.COM31_Tue, 22 May 2007 10:11:10 -0700635_iso-8859-1 What a great idea, Malkie! I'll try it - my older two
might be too old for it, but I think I'll try it
anyway when I'm stuck next.

Of course, now I have that going through my head...

Chag Sameach everyone,

~Shayna
DD Kinneret 10-14-99
DS Uri Amitai 03-06-02
DD Sivan 05-24-06

--- Malkie Swidler wrote:

> Are you familiar with Dora the Explorer? My little
> ones watch it religiously
> at their grandparents' house. I use the songs to get
> the little ones out the
> door (bathroom, car, Dedushka's house! Bathroom,
> car, Dedushka's [...]39_22May200710:11:10-0700ssheiny@YAHOO.COM 31923 325 36_Re: Rabbi Goldstein parsha cassettes15_Bara Loewenthal26_bara@BTGENTERPRISESINC.COM31_Tue, 22 May 2007 15:15:26 -0600605_iso-8859-1 Hi Avivah,
we were considering buying Rabbi Juravel parsha tyme tapes, can you tell me
more about them, how does it compare to Rabbi Goldstein? We tried Rabbi
Goldstein but for some reason my kids are not into it. Rabbi Juravel has all
the parshiot on tape now at
www.jewishjukebox.com

Thanks and Chag Sameach Bara
-----Original Message-----
From: Torah-Centered Homeschooling [mailto:TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG]On Behalf
Of Avivah Werner
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 11:09 AM
To: TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG
Subject: Re: [TORCH-D] Rabbi Goldstein parsha cassettes [...]48_22May200715:15:26-0600bara@BTGENTERPRISESINC.COM 32249 105 37_Re: Recommendations for Math Programs8_cillakat18_cillakat@GMAIL.COM31_Tue, 22 May 2007 16:58:42 -0230334_ISO-8859-1 <> in birthing etc. I know I need structure, but hate putting it in place, and
> struggle to keep to it. >>

oh yes. it's a constant cycle of 'working it' then falling off the
routines....then getting it back together....then falling off. [...]40_22May200716:58:42-0230cillakat@GMAIL.COM 32355 27 39_Re: cheesecake and Shavuos preparations8_cillakat18_cillakat@GMAIL.COM31_Tue, 22 May 2007 17:13:35 -0230626_ISO-8859-1 I never knew there was any other way than kashering. I didn't know
covering or double wrapping were options but since in general we don't
eat much dairy, it doesn't really matter to me. I think I switched
it one other time this year to dairy......so twice a year, diary in
the oven.

k

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by
Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org,
a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and
an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...]40_22May200717:13:35-0230cillakat@GMAIL.COM 32383 35 29_Re: the myth of socialization10_Larry Beck19_larry@BECKFORCE.COM31_Tue, 22 May 2007 16:25:04 -0400600_US-ASCII My wife has a bumper sticker on the back of her car:
"Public School: Aren't you worried about socialization?"
It fits just as well for any school.

Have a great Yontiv,
Larry

-----Original Message-----
From: Torah-Centered Homeschooling [mailto:TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG] On Behalf Of
Sarah Kopp
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 3:53 AM
Subject: Re: [TORCH-D] the myth of socialization

I agree with Avivah on all counts and want to add that I have seen very,
very negative socialization habits cultivated in school and chugim with
schooled children. [...]41_22May200716:25:04-0400larry@BECKFORCE.COM 32419 144 35_blue jeans-- to wear or not to wear17_Maria Pereverzeva22_maria-p@ROCKETMAIL.COM31_Tue, 22 May 2007 17:38:52 -0700637_iso-8859-1 Sorry-- I always seem to catch up rather late in the process.. so this
is in reply to Sarah's, Bill's and Avivah's posts

We probably all agree about not conforming in big issues -- after all,
we are all on this list- homeschooling:)

But I personally think that even when both parents agree and
comfortable with, say wearing jeans, conforming to the community
standards and not wearing them still could be worth consideration. I
think there are two reasons for that: first of all, the kids may feel
uncomfortable being dressed differently from their peers -- and
unfortunately they will [...]44_22May200717:38:52-0700maria-p@ROCKETMAIL.COM 32564 42 29_Re: the myth of socialization10_Sarah Kopp17_svkopp@012.NET.IL31_Wed, 23 May 2007 19:34:20 +0200548_ISO-8859-1 Avivah Werner wrote:
> >>Remember Animal Farm?<<
>
> Last week at dinner after coming home from a recent baseball game of
> my older son (7th and 8th graders, local frum league), we were
> discussing some of the behavior of some of the boys (not positive).
> Dd12 said, "Now I understand how all the boys on the island ended up
> killing each other." (Referring to Lord of the Flies, which I would
> like to do as a read aloud in a couple of years.)
>
> Avivah
>
Right, I meant Lord of the Flies [...]39_23May200719:34:20+0200svkopp@012.NET.IL 32607 91 29_Re: the myth of socialization14_Malkie Swidler18_malkie18@GMAIL.COM31_Wed, 23 May 2007 21:36:58 +0300472_ISO-8859-1 I once saw a bumper sticker on a car here in Israel with a Breslov smiley
face (a smiley with a kippah and long curly peyot).

It read, "Hok Hiyuch Hovah".

("Hok Hinuch Hovah" means "Compulsory Education Law". By changing the nun to
a yud, the creator of the sticker changed the meaning to "Compulsory Smiling
Law".)
Dh and I agreed that it would be the only bumper sticker we would put on our
car, but I haven't seen it since. [...]40_23May200721:36:58+0300malkie18@GMAIL.COM 32699 32 23_impact of secular books13_Sharon Brooks23_Sharonajb@SBCGLOBAL.NET31_Fri, 25 May 2007 11:41:19 -0700565_iso-8859-1 I've been reading The Secret Garden to my 5 1/2 and 3 1/2 year olds. They
are following well. The discussion is great. But to my surprise, the older
child, a boy, is telling me he's scared about what's going to happen to
Mary. I think he's referring to the tension that's created by Mary doing
something she's not supposed to do. I tried to show him that the story
explains she's never been taught right and wrong, or that she's supposed to
listen to parents. He actually told me he doesn't want me to read this
again till he's [...]45_25May200711:41:19-0700Sharonajb@SBCGLOBAL.NET 32732 174 27_Re: impact of secular books5_Kelli33_Natural_Irish_Terrier@COMCAST.NET31_Fri, 25 May 2007 15:08:13 -0400309_iso-8859-1 I think you should listen to him and not force the issue. Some children (and adults like myself) have problems with intense stories and it can be tormenting to them. Just pick up another book and later he may decide he is ready for that one. No worries.

Kelli Armes
and the Terriers [...]55_25May200715:08:13-0400Natural_Irish_Terrier@COMCAST.NET 32907 55 27_Re: impact of secular books18_Benjamin H Dickman27_bdickman@ALCATEL-LUCENT.COM31_Fri, 25 May 2007 15:04:42 -0400557_UTF-8 When my daughters were 7 and 4 they didn't want to see the Wizard of Oz
video because the witch was too much for them. Two years later they
asked to see it again. Having read the book was good preparation.

They still don't want to see violence depicted. I showed them the
video "Oliver" and they were shaken when Bill Sykes kills Nancy.
I explained that the actors were not hurt at all, and it was covered
by a big rock in the scenery so people would imagine what happened.
They still didn't like it. They can take Daffy [...]49_25May200715:04:42-0400bdickman@ALCATEL-LUCENT.COM 32963 76 27_Re: impact of secular books14_Sigal Gottlieb23_sigalgottlieb@YAHOO.COM31_Fri, 25 May 2007 12:34:43 -0700545_ascii What a sweet, sensitive, and expressive child! Of course his feelings should be respected, and they sound perfectly normal.

One idea I had is that perhaps you can release the tension by telling him what happens at the end.
I always flip to the back of the book to see what happens and release the tension
so I can enjoy the reading, maybe he needs this too? My kids usually do this, and then enjoy the book more.
Some of my friends are unhappy at this idea -- they love the tension! But I love to know what happens so [...]45_25May200712:34:43-0700sigalgottlieb@YAHOO.COM 33040 91 39_Re: impact of secular books (2.64/4.00)14_Rebecca Harper22_hudabecca@RAINMALL.COM31_Fri, 25 May 2007 16:44:08 -0400542_ISO-8859-1 Just some personal experience I encountered with myself. I used to watch a lot of TV. When I went to university I did not have time for TV. After 2-3 years I was sitting with my brother and sister and we were watching a documentary on young children (12 yrs old) in gangs. After about 15 minutes I told my brother to turn the channel. I could not take it! I had realized that I had become desensitized by all the different kinds of things I was watching (and not that the shows were that bad....I think watching a documentary [...]44_25May200716:44:08-0400hudabecca@RAINMALL.COM 33132 254 27_Re: impact of secular books13_Sharon Brooks23_Sharonajb@SBCGLOBAL.NET31_Fri, 25 May 2007 13:49:04 -0700488_iso-8859-1 What a great idea! I tried it and it worked. In truth, I do the same, but it never occured to me that it would help with this situation. Thanks Sigal.

Sharon

----- Original Message -----
From: Sigal Gottlieb
To: TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG
Sent: Friday, May 25, 2007 12:34 PM
Subject: Re: [TORCH-D] impact of secular books

What a sweet, sensitive, and expressive child! Of course his feelings should be respected, and they sound perfectly normal. [...]45_25May200713:49:04-0700Sharonajb@SBCGLOBAL.NET 33387 250 27_Re: impact of secular books14_Sigal Gottlieb23_sigalgottlieb@YAHOO.COM31_Fri, 25 May 2007 14:20:12 -0700490_ascii wow! That's great! I guess he takes after you? :)

Shabbat Shalom --
Sigal

----- Original Message ----
From: Sharon Brooks
To: TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG
Sent: Friday, May 25, 2007 4:49:04 PM
Subject: Re: [TORCH-D] impact of secular books

DIV {
MARGIN:0px;}

What a great idea! I tried it and it
worked. In truth, I do the same, but it never occured to me that it would
help with this situation. Thanks Sigal. [...]45_25May200714:20:12-0700sigalgottlieb@YAHOO.COM 33638 58 27_Re: impact of secular books10_Sarah Kopp17_svkopp@012.NET.IL31_Sat, 26 May 2007 20:24:42 +0200554_ISO-8859-1 Sharon Brooks wrote:
> I've been reading The Secret Garden to my 5 1/2 and 3 1/2 year olds.
> They are following well. The discussion is great. But to my
> surprise, the older child, a boy, is telling me he's scared about
> what's going to happen to Mary. I think he's referring to the tension
> that's created by Mary doing something she's not supposed to do. I
> tried to show him that the story explains she's never been taught
> right and wrong, or that she's supposed to listen to parents. He
> actually told [...]39_26May200720:24:42+0200svkopp@012.NET.IL 33697 93 30_History Resource help, please!14_Malkie Swidler18_malkie18@GMAIL.COM31_Sat, 26 May 2007 22:12:12 +0300396_ISO-8859-1 One of the down sides of living in Israel is that we have no curriculum
fairs, so I end up purchasing a lot of resources unseen. :( Some of the
things we get are amazing, wonderful, awesome... and some end up in trash,
because they do not coexist peacefully even with my generally open-minded
philosophy (sometimes it costs more to return something than to ditch it). [...]40_26May200722:12:12+0300malkie18@GMAIL.COM 33791 103 39_Re: impact of secular books (2.62/4.00)14_Rebecca Harper22_hudabecca@RAINMALL.COM31_Sat, 26 May 2007 22:55:07 -0400527_ISO-8859-1 It would depend on the kind of book - I read the abridged versions of stories - The Great Illustrated Classics - thanks to someone on this list! They are for much younger children. I also read just to read. My older two catch on to things, but if they don't , I don't worry about it, it's time for all of us to sit down and just listen to Mommy read. Sometimes they ask me questions about the story, usually not. Occasionally I explain something that I just read. So, would the Secret Garden be too high for my [...]44_26May200722:55:07-0400hudabecca@RAINMALL.COM 33895 73 34_Re: History Resource help, please!18_Benjamin H Dickman27_bdickman@ALCATEL-LUCENT.COM31_Sat, 26 May 2007 23:10:54 -0400692_UTF-8 We liked Mary Pope Osbourne's Magic Tree House series, which is historical
fiction (well-researched) written at the fourth grade level. See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_Tree_House#37:_Dragon_of_the_Red_Dawn

Some of the stories have Research Guides for further reading.

Benzion Dickman

On 5/26/2007 3:12 PM, Malkie Swidler wrote:
> One of the down sides of living in Israel is that we have no curriculum
> fairs, so I end up purchasing a lot of resources unseen. :( Some of the
> things we get are amazing, wonderful, awesome... and some end up in
> trash, because they do not coexist peacefully even with my generally
> open-minded [...]49_26May200723:10:54-0400bdickman@ALCATEL-LUCENT.COM 33969 105 34_Re: History Resource help, please!13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Sat, 26 May 2007 20:43:52 -0700574_iso-8859-1 I haven't used any of the books you referred to, so take my comments with a grain of salt. :)

I've heard good things about the Foster books in several places - today I read in The Charlotte Mason Companion the following - "Genevieve Foster's books are unique in providing this wider scope that Charlotte (Mason) talks about. They are not as overtly xtian as some of us would like them to be, but her books do what textbooks do not: they tell a good story. Foster's books are biographical in nature, weaving the lives of diverse characters from around [...]44_26May200720:43:52-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 34075 62 53_Re: impact of secular books, books for young children13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Sat, 26 May 2007 20:52:40 -0700552_iso-8859-1 >>But I have to say - and I wouldn't have mentioned this if you hadn't
asked, but I consider The Secret Garden to be much too advanced in many
ways for children the ages you mentioned. Why try to read them
books that are intended for much older children?<<

This was also my first thought. The Secret Garden is a great book, but a bit mature for such young kids. My almost 5 yo does listen along with his older siblings to whatever I'm currently doing as a read aloud (though I don't think he absorbs or is interested in [...]44_26May200720:52:40-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 34138 143 43_Re: impact of secular books, abridged books13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Sat, 26 May 2007 20:57:59 -0700595_iso-8859-1 Hmm, now you bring up the question of abridged books, and I'm sure there are strong proponents on both sides of the table!

Personally, I stay away from the abridged versions of anything. I used to think the Great Illustrated Classics were a terrific idea, until I realized it was like mental cotton candy. (Please don't take offense, that's just my feeling about it.) The kids thought they were boring because they were missing so much of the rich details and characterizations that make a classic, a classic. I didn't want them to read an abridged version and then think [...]44_26May200720:57:59-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 34282 90 27_Re: impact of secular books13_Sharon Brooks23_Sharonajb@SBCGLOBAL.NET31_Sat, 26 May 2007 22:02:20 -0700524_iso-8859-1 Hi Sarah,

Somebody with a similar child suggested it. As is, we've now read about
40%. My three year old likes it enough to be able to ask and answer simple
questions about it. My five year old spent 20 minutes just this evening
pacing the living room, telling my DH the entire story with his own
commentary, and telling me how much he likes the book and wishes we could
read it all at once. He had been upset by the intensity, but I got past
that by telling him part of the ending. [...]45_26May200722:02:20-0700Sharonajb@SBCGLOBAL.NET 34373 94 34_Re: History Resource help, please!13_Sharon Brooks23_Sharonajb@SBCGLOBAL.NET31_Sat, 26 May 2007 22:10:00 -0700453_utf-8 Someone recommended that series to me as well, but when I glanced at the
first book, it began with the children using a treehouse and books that
weren't theirs. Does it resolve this in an acceptable way?
sharon

----- Original Message -----
From: "Benjamin H Dickman"
To:
Sent: Saturday, May 26, 2007 8:10 PM
Subject: Re: [TORCH-D] History Resource help, please! [...]45_26May200722:10:00-0700Sharonajb@SBCGLOBAL.NET 34468 265 53_Re: impact of secular books, books for young children13_Sharon Brooks23_Sharonajb@SBCGLOBAL.NET31_Sat, 26 May 2007 22:31:14 -0700539_iso-8859-1 I guess it depends on the kid. My 5 1/2 yo is highly verbal. He requests non-fiction books regularly, has even asked me to read to him from adult science books. He enjoys listening to much older levels in parsha. He liked A.A.Milne and Amelia Bedelia when he was 3 (but he also likes them now when I read them to his younger sister). He's totally on board with the language and the complexity of older kids books, but intensity and mature themes are a problem. As long as the book doesn't spend too much time on it, I find [...]45_26May200722:31:14-0700Sharonajb@SBCGLOBAL.NET 34734 123 34_Re: History Resource help, please!10_Rachel Ann24_anolick@NETVISION.NET.IL31_Sun, 27 May 2007 08:36:26 +0300591_iso-8859-1 The books feature two siblings who stumble across
a treehouse made by Morgan Le'Fay of King Arthur
fame. Only she is a good guy, a libriarian who
travels to different times to study them. She
knows the children use her books to travel,
approves ot it, and goes along with them to help
the(unknown to the children) in the shape of
various animals or people etc. relevant to the
time/situation: dinosaur for the time of the
dinosaurs, cat for Egypt etc. At least that is
how the first couple of books go...I don't know
if she shows up in other [...]46_27May200708:36:26+0300anolick@NETVISION.NET.IL 34858 44 23_books for 5yo -- and up17_Maria Pereverzeva22_maria-p@ROCKETMAIL.COM31_Sat, 26 May 2007 23:39:08 -0700442_iso-8859-1 Here are some of our favorites for younger children 5 and up (but older
children love them as well):

Wind in the willows

Pippi Longstocking, Karlsson-on-the-Roof, The Children of Noisy
Village, and other books by Astrid Lindgren

Finn Family Moomintroll and other Moomintroll books by Tove Jansson

hans christian andersen's Fairy Tales

Books by Beverly Cleary
Books by Enid Blyton-- [...]44_26May200723:39:08-0700maria-p@ROCKETMAIL.COM 34903 248 34_Re: History Resource help, please!14_Malkie Swidler18_malkie18@GMAIL.COM31_Sun, 27 May 2007 10:40:12 +0300576_UTF-8 While I obviously don't argue with anyone who likes the Magic Treehouse books (after all, my ds is in love with Horrible Histories which started this whole search for more history goodies), Magic Treehouse books are candy-- not that well written and very formulaic. The research guides however (at least the first bunch-- don't know about the rest) are excellent. We did use Magic Treehouse fiction books as read-alouds when he was four or five, and I thought they were candy then. We were new at this and I didn't know there was better out there. As for the using [...]40_27May200710:40:12+0300malkie18@GMAIL.COM 35152 212 35_Reading suggestions for 5 year olds21_Eliana Scott-Thoennes14_eliana@EFN.ORG31_Sun, 27 May 2007 01:10:17 -0700577_iso-8859-1 I'm not sure if any of these will be helpful as my 5 year olds have all
*loved* The Secret Garden at this age. (We recently finished reading it
to my 5 year old twins, and they were entranced by it!) I think people
often seriously underestimate the interests and abilities of younger kids,
and, all too often, it is a self-fulfilling prophecy. My littlest two
listen with enormous pleasure as I read Tale of Two Cities to the older
kids (for that matter they often like to listen to their eldest sister
going over her science work with me, [...]36_27May200701:10:17-0700eliana@EFN.ORG 35365 44 43_Re: impact of secular books, abridged books10_Sarah Kopp17_svkopp@012.NET.IL31_Sun, 27 May 2007 11:06:36 +0200584_ISO-8859-1 Avivah Werner wrote:
> Personally, I stay away from the abridged versions of anything. I
> used to think the Great Illustrated Classics were a terrific idea,
> until I realized it was like mental cotton candy. (Please don't take
> offense, that's just my feeling about it.) The kids thought they were
> boring because they were missing so much of the rich details and
> characterizations that make a classic, a classic.
>
Well I am an avid reader and a real purist and would never have read
these books to my kids but my husband started it, [...]39_27May200711:06:36+0200svkopp@012.NET.IL 35410 83 53_Re: impact of secular books, books for young children10_Sarah Kopp17_svkopp@012.NET.IL31_Sun, 27 May 2007 12:44:18 +0200472_ISO-8859-1 Avivah Werner wrote:
>
> Anyone want to chime in with good suggestions for stimulating but age
> appropriate reading for bright 5 yos?
>
> Avivah
Boy, I can't believe you stumped me. I didn't know where to begin so I
looked in Amazon at the user-generated lists and found this;
http://www.amazon.com/gp/richpub/listmania/fullview/R34EHHX9F16XZI/ref=cm_srch_tsr_rpsy/104-2475517-5768722
but I haven't seen any of the books on it! [...]39_27May200712:44:18+0200svkopp@012.NET.IL 35494 82 34_Re: History Resource help, please!10_Louise Fox20_fox.louise@GMAIL.COM31_Sun, 27 May 2007 13:48:02 +0300367_ISO-8859-1 We also liked the Magic Tree House books, but I am surprised when you say it
is at 4th grade level. Was this perhaps a typo? My almost 7 year old has
read this series himself in the past year (well, all the ones that our
local English library has) and has moved on already to books with more
complex plots and more sophisticated language. [...]42_27May200713:48:02+0300fox.louise@GMAIL.COM 35577 171 55_Re: impact of secular books, abridged books (2.47/4.00)14_Rebecca Harper22_hudabecca@RAINMALL.COM31_Sun, 27 May 2007 08:14:49 -0400540_ISO-8859-1 I guess it just depends on each child - my children would get lost totally in the unabridged versions. (I tried Alice in Wonderland, just because I had it..... never mind that even for me it was a high level, not sure the boys got ANYTHING but mouse swimming in Alice's tears!) Even the abridged versions I'm not sure they get all the info. But, my kids would love for me to read the books again, and when we all get a few years older (whatever a few means!), I will reread those books, but this time the unabridged version [...]44_27May200708:14:49-0400hudabecca@RAINMALL.COM 35749 52 27_Re: impact of secular books17_Chana Silberstein16_cs32@CORNELL.EDU31_Sun, 27 May 2007 09:16:45 -0400423_iso-8859-1 Sarah brought up an excellent issue to consider when selecting books for
children, namely age appropriateness.

It is possible to read a book written for middle-schoolers to
pre-schoolers,(and it possible to take toddlers to Shakespeare plays) but
they get very different things out of it.

Stories by their very nature provide the context for children responding
on various levels. [...]38_27May200709:16:45-0400cs32@CORNELL.EDU 35802 98 53_Re: impact of secular books, books for young children17_Chana Silberstein16_cs32@CORNELL.EDU31_Sun, 27 May 2007 09:33:25 -0400691_iso-8859-1 One of the many versions of Aesop's Fables should be enjoyable, as well as
otehr collection of folk tales. A. A. Milne (House at Pooh corner, When we
Were Six, etc.) Books of Elizabeth Enright, Eleanor Estes. James
Stevenson.
Chana
>>
>> Anyone want to chime in with good suggestions for stimulating but age
>> appropriate reading for bright 5 yos?
>>
>> Avivah
> Boy, I can't believe you stumped me. I didn't know where to begin so I
> looked in Amazon at the user-generated lists and found this;
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/richpub/listmania/fullview/R34EHHX9F16XZI/ref=cm_srch_tsr_rpsy/104-2475517-5768722
> but I haven't seen any of [...]38_27May200709:33:25-0400cs32@CORNELL.EDU 35901 71 39_A Discussion on Religious Homeschooling14_Malkie Swidler18_malkie18@GMAIL.COM31_Sun, 27 May 2007 16:51:07 +0300440_ISO-8859-1 B'eH on Tuesday, Leigh (a lurker and occasional poster here) and I will be
leading a discussion circle on religious homeschooling at the annual
National B'Ofen Tiv'ee gathering. (B'Ofen is a magazine and website
dedicated to natural living and natural parenting here in Israel. It's mixed
religious/secular, though currently mostly secular).

Right now we are thinking about covering the following topics: [...]40_27May200716:51:07+0300malkie18@GMAIL.COM 35973 23 27_Re: books for 5yo -- and up14_Evelyn Krieger18_ek2000@COMCAST.NET31_Sat, 26 May 2007 16:55:49 -0400529_iso-8859-1 My Father's Dragon
Nice, short chapter book. There is at least one sequel.

.

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For other options go to: http://listserv.SHAMASH.ORG/40_26May200716:55:49-0400ek2000@COMCAST.NET 35997 119 55_Re: impact of secular books, abridged books (2.47/4.00)10_Sarah Kopp17_svkopp@012.NET.IL31_Sun, 27 May 2007 15:56:44 +0200552_ISO-8859-1 Actually Alice in Wonderland is not a book I consider to be too "high
English" for my kids - but it is an odd story that could be hard to
follow. I was thinking of the original versions of Robyn Hood, Around
the World in 80 Days, Mutiny on the Bounty, the Count of Monte Cristo,
and Kidnapped, all books they heard in the abridged versions and wanted
to hear more of because the stories are gripping and they know that
there is more to them in the originals. Mutiny On the Bounty is by the
way an excellent history [...]39_27May200715:56:44+0200svkopp@012.NET.IL 36117 56 31_math, aleks vs right start vs ?10_Sarah Kopp17_svkopp@012.NET.IL31_Sun, 27 May 2007 16:23:03 +0200592_ISO-8859-1 Was it on this list that aleks.com was recommended? I tried the free
trial today with dd9, whom I have secretly nicknamed "Resistol", and it
looks pretty good to me. It doesn't make math more exciting
particularly, but it does have an ingenious way of testing kids to
discover their level, then it gives the student a personal pie chart
that shows clearly how much of each area of knowledge in their level
they have to master in order to complete the level. Each time a student
completes a certain number of problems in a given area, the program adds
[...]39_27May200716:23:03+0200svkopp@012.NET.IL 36174 75 27_Re: impact of secular books10_Sarah Kopp17_svkopp@012.NET.IL31_Sun, 27 May 2007 17:09:36 +0200617_ISO-8859-1 Thank you Chana, you clarified perfectly my misgivings about reading
books to children before they are ready to fully appreciate them.

Another thing that nags me about this is the fact that we do sometimes
push our children to do more-better-faster, and that ultimately puts too
much emphasis on the child's achievements rather than on the process of
discovery itself. I am not inferring that Sharon is doing this, she has
noted that her children are interested in the story and involved in it
and I don't think she would be forcing them to sit and listen or
anything, but [...]39_27May200717:09:36+0200svkopp@012.NET.IL 36250 73 43_Re: A Discussion on Religious Homeschooling14_Bill Bernstein27_billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET31_Sun, 27 May 2007 10:22:00 -0500487_ISO-8859-1 Some questions that come to mind:
-How many hours a day do you homeschool? (I get this one a lot myself)
-The inevitable "S" question.
-How expensive is home schooling?
-Don't you need to have professional training to be a teacher? (I havent
personally heard this one but I suspect its out there. Most parents
think they are not qualified to teach kids).
-Wont homeschooling put the child at a professional or academic
disadvantage down the line? [...]49_27May200710:22:00-0500billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET 36324 65 43_Re: A Discussion on Religious Homeschooling10_Sarah Kopp17_svkopp@012.NET.IL31_Sun, 27 May 2007 17:26:00 +0200587_ISO-8859-1 Malkie Swidler wrote:
>
>
> What does a Jewish education look like (this one is a veritable
> minefield, so we sticking with the Gemara in kiddushin 29a and Avot
> 5:21, and Mishlei, of course. We mostly avoided latter sources, but
> are definitely open to suggestions).
Minefield - no kidding! When I started my homeschooling explorations I
read all I could find about Jewish education in history and it was
mostly pretty horrific - so I decided I'd just have to buck the system :)
>
>
> We are trying to keep the formal stuff short, [...]39_27May200717:26:00+0200svkopp@012.NET.IL 36390 165 43_Re: A Discussion on Religious Homeschooling13_Sharon Brooks23_Sharonajb@SBCGLOBAL.NET31_Sun, 27 May 2007 08:33:22 -0700659_iso-8859-1 I'd like to learn more about these topics. Will you publish any of the discussion at some point?
Sharon

----- Original Message -----
From: Malkie Swidler
To: TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG
Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2007 6:51 AM
Subject: [TORCH-D] A Discussion on Religious Homeschooling

B'eH on Tuesday, Leigh (a lurker and occasional poster here) and I will be leading a discussion circle on religious homeschooling at the annual National B'Ofen Tiv'ee gathering. (B'Ofen is a magazine and website dedicated to natural living and natural parenting here in Israel. It's mixed religious/secular, though currently mostly secular). [...]45_27May200708:33:22-0700Sharonajb@SBCGLOBAL.NET 36556 106 52_fit growth vs. pushing, was: impact of secular books13_Sharon Brooks23_Sharonajb@SBCGLOBAL.NET31_Sun, 27 May 2007 08:41:46 -0700533_iso-8859-1 It's sometimes hard to tell when we're doing this. If you think about it,
kids wax and wane daily in their enthusiasm for anything. That's why I was
confused about this book. But it's also happening today with the ballet
class I've been taking my little girl to. It's happened with friendships,
math, extracurriculars, reading, singing at the shabbos table...Everything I
can think of. So how do you as a parent determine when to push on and when
to drop it, when it's a good fit and when it's not? [...]45_27May200708:41:46-0700Sharonajb@SBCGLOBAL.NET 36663 71 56_Re: fit growth vs. pushing, was: impact of secular books13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Sun, 27 May 2007 10:14:14 -0700537_iso-8859-1 >>It's sometimes hard to tell when we're doing this. If you think about it,
kids wax and wane daily in their enthusiasm for anything. That's why I was
confused about this book. But it's also happening today with the ballet
class I've been taking my little girl to. It's happened with friendships,
math, extracurriculars, reading, singing at the shabbos table...Everything I
can think of. So how do you as a parent determine when to push on and when
to drop it, when it's a good fit and when it's not?<< [...]44_27May200710:14:14-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 36735 59 43_Re: A Discussion on Religious Homeschooling13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Sun, 27 May 2007 10:37:26 -0700415_iso-8859-1 >>-Don't you need to have professional training to be a teacher? (I havent
personally heard this one but I suspect its out there. Most parents
think they are not qualified to teach kids).<<

Most teachers I've met don't feel confident about teaching their children, but most of that concern is probably more about not feeling able to get their kids to listen to them than anything else. [...]44_27May200710:37:26-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 36795 167 44_Re: more on high school math - Singapore NEM17_Chana Silberstein16_cs32@CORNELL.EDU31_Sun, 27 May 2007 17:08:52 -0400498_iso-8859-1 My response here is a bit outdated, but hopefully useful to some of you.
For those who are curious... I used NEM. There is no question: this is a
very big jump from Primary Math. It can be daunting because like Primary
Math, it continues to use a conceptual approach, and quite frankly, while
many of us have homeschooling parents have come to appreciate a conceptual
approach to elementary math, most of got through high school math by using
a cookbook approach. [...]38_27May200717:08:52-0400cs32@CORNELL.EDU 36963 158 56_Re: fit growth vs. pushing, was: impact of secular books10_Sarah Kopp17_svkopp@012.NET.IL31_Mon, 28 May 2007 08:06:17 +0200559_ISO-8859-1 I was not thinking of the predicament of knowing when it's ok to push a
child to try something new or to persevere with something difficult, but
of the way some parents push their children to excel because it is so
prestigious. I've been mulling this over for hours and you are right -
it really is hard to tell the difference. I am sure my parents pushed me
because they thought it would be to my benefit, not only because they
were so proud to have a child who was early at everything, and they
never recognized that it [...]39_28May200708:06:17+0200svkopp@012.NET.IL 37122 44 56_Re: fit growth vs. pushing, was: impact of secular books10_Sarah Kopp17_svkopp@012.NET.IL31_Mon, 28 May 2007 08:12:17 +0200475_ISO-8859-1 Avivah Werner wrote:
> As kids get older, I think more follow through can be expected. Many
> activities come with longer term obligations, so I let them know
> upfront that part of committing to it is continuing with it to the
> degree we agree is appropriate before beginning the activity. If I'm
> willing to commit my time/money/energy towards getting them where they
> want to be, I expect them to have some kind of commitment as well. [...]39_28May200708:12:17+0200svkopp@012.NET.IL 37167 49 18_growth vs. pushing10_Sarah Kopp17_svkopp@012.NET.IL31_Mon, 28 May 2007 10:40:56 +0200586_ISO-8859-1 Here's the proof that I really don't know what I'm doing when it comes
to this pushing versus growth business

I tried aleks.com (personalized online math program) yesterday with dd9,
the free trial. I basically sat on her and forced her to complete the
testing to see where she is in terms of her level, it was really hard on
both of us, she was totally resistant and very angry with me for forcing
her. Then I got her to do a couple of practice problems to increase her
understanding in an area the program deemed her lacking, which showed
[...]39_28May200710:40:56+0200svkopp@012.NET.IL 37217 120 21_Re: homeschooling FAQ0_17_RENALEVIN@AOL.COM29_Mon, 28 May 2007 07:41:48 EDT613_US-ASCII In a message dated 5/28/07 2:01:36 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
LISTSERV@SHAMASH.ORG writes:

> Some questions that come to mind:
> -How many hours a day do you homeschool? (I get this one a lot myself)
> -The inevitable "S" question.
> -How expensive is home schooling?
> -Don't you need to have professional training to be a teacher? (I havent
> personally heard this one but I suspect its out there. Most parents
> think they are not qualified to teach kids).
> -Wont homeschooling put the child at a professional or academic
> disadvantage down the line?
>
> [...]37_28May200707:41:48EDTRENALEVIN@AOL.COM 37338 89 22_Re: family activities?0_17_RENALEVIN@AOL.COM29_Mon, 28 May 2007 07:46:57 EDT480_US-ASCII In a message dated 5/28/07 2:01:36 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
LISTSERV@SHAMASH.ORG writes:

> Many activities come with longer term obligations, so I let them know
> upfront that part of committing to it is continuing with it to the degree we
> agree is appropriate before beginning the activity. If I'm willing to commit my
> time/money/energy towards getting them where they want to be, I expect them
> to have some kind of commitment as well. [...]37_28May200707:46:57EDTRENALEVIN@AOL.COM 37428 23 55_A Great Website for Teaching Prayer and Learning Hebrew16_Russell J Hendel17_rjhendel@JUNO.COM31_Mon, 28 May 2007 15:49:16 -0400663_us-ascii Hi
Just found this wonderful website with transliterations of many common
prayers and blessings. http://www.kakatuv.com/orthodox.html I think it
would be ideal for H-Schoolers.
Russell; http://www.Rashiyomi.com

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To unsubscribe email: TORCH-D-unsubscribe-request@SHAMASH.ORG
For other options go to: http://listserv.SHAMASH.ORG/39_28May200715:49:16-0400rjhendel@JUNO.COM 37452 55 12_Self control13_Sharon Brooks23_Sharonajb@SBCGLOBAL.NET31_Tue, 29 May 2007 03:40:37 -0700579_iso-8859-1 I just want to share this thought and see if anyone has any way of dealing
with it that I haven't considered.

Perhaps one of the largest challenges for me in homeschooling and parenting
in general is modelling all the behaviors I want my children to emulate.
When my yetzer hara kicks in, whether it is related to the children or not,
I am so aware of the bad example I'm setting. Maybe that awareness helps me
sometimes, but not often enough. I still lose my temper sometimes, on the
one hand, and reach for the chocolates when I really [...]45_29May200703:40:37-0700Sharonajb@SBCGLOBAL.NET 37508 137 16_Re: Self control4_Laya17_tolife18@JUNO.COM29_Tue, 29 May 2007 14:11:50 GMT568_- Hi Sharon,
While I'm writing this at nearly 10 am, I'm jetlagged having just
arrived a few hours ago to NY. (more about that in another post if
time permits) I'm just reading a book about parenting teens. Although
I've written a book on how to survive being a teen, and I've worked
with teens and even foster parented teens for short times, parenting is
quite another issue, so, I'm studying what people have to say about it
for chizuk in this new phase of life. (My son just became a bar mitzva
a couple of weeks ago parshat baMidbar.) [...]37_29May200714:11:50GMTtolife18@JUNO.COM 37646 95 16_Re: Self control14_Hadas laureano20_hadasl@SBCGLOBAL.NET31_Tue, 29 May 2007 07:15:38 -0700590_iso-8859-1 What a beautiful thing to say......Hadas
--- Sharon Brooks wrote:

> I just want to share this thought and see if anyone
> has any way of dealing
> with it that I haven't considered.
>
> Perhaps one of the largest challenges for me in
> homeschooling and parenting
> in general is modelling all the behaviors I want my
> children to emulate.
> When my yetzer hara kicks in, whether it is related
> to the children or not,
> I am so aware of the bad example I'm setting. Maybe
> that awareness helps me
[...]42_29May200707:15:38-0700hadasl@SBCGLOBAL.NET 37742 102 22_Re: family activities?6_Shayna17_ssheiny@YAHOO.COM31_Tue, 29 May 2007 11:39:53 -0700594_iso-8859-1 I would add that some places (like our local JCC) will
let you sign up (and pay) and attend a class or two,
and if it doesn't work out will allow you either a
refund (minus whatever you've attended) or allow you
to apply the money to another event.

I find this useful, especially at my son's age, where
he's right around that point where he can attend some
classes, but others (often depending on the
instructor/coach) are a total flop. This gives us the
flexibility to try it out without having to force him
into something that he's miserable [...]39_29May200711:39:53-0700ssheiny@YAHOO.COM 37845 26 15_tehillim needed15_Michelle Miller25_michelletamar@HOTMAIL.COM31_Tue, 29 May 2007 19:59:37 -0700724_- HI all,

I will be having extensive sinus revision surgery Monday morning, June 4th
and would appreciate your tefillos. Thank you and blessings, michelle
(michal tamar bas sarah)

_________________________________________________________________
Make every IM count. Download Messenger and join the i’m Initiative now.
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The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by
Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org,
a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and
an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...]47_29May200719:59:37-0700michelletamar@HOTMAIL.COM 37872 184 15_Re: unschooling10_Louise Fox20_fox.louise@GMAIL.COM31_Wed, 30 May 2007 09:16:09 +0300354_ISO-8859-1 It's taken me a while to get round to answering this, but as we consider
ourselves unschoolers, I feel that I have something relevant to say.

I think unschooling is often misunderstood to mean benign neglect or letting
the kids play computer games all day long (and in some cases, I think there
are families who do this.) [...]42_30May200709:16:09+0300fox.louise@GMAIL.COM 38057 36 29_Re: the myth of socialization6_Shayna17_ssheiny@YAHOO.COM31_Wed, 30 May 2007 06:39:20 -0700834_iso-8859-1 Just received this link on one of my other
homeschooling list-servs, and thought it was
appropriately entertaining:

http://www.inflatablestudios.com/merch.htm

~Shayna in Chicago
afterschooling
~ Kinneret 10-14-99
~ Uri Amitai 03-06-02
~ Sivan 05-24-06

____________________________________________________________________________________
Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story. Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games.
http://sims.yahoo.com/

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The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by
Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org,
a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and
an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...]39_30May200706:39:20-0700ssheiny@YAHOO.COM 38094 71 16_Re: Self control16_Brenda Goldstein19_lioness31@CA.RR.COM31_Tue, 29 May 2007 14:37:49 -0700573_ISO-8859-1 I often wonder the same thing. But I can't imagine my son being better
off in school, without me, right now. So, I'm always doing t'shuvah!
Brenda

Sharon Brooks wrote:

> I just want to share this thought and see if anyone has any way of
> dealing with it that I haven't considered.
>
> Perhaps one of the largest challenges for me in homeschooling and
> parenting in general is modelling all the behaviors I want my children
> to emulate. When my yetzer hara kicks in, whether it is related to the
> children or not, I [...]41_29May200714:37:49-0700lioness31@CA.RR.COM 38166 162 17_Re: self-control?0_17_RENALEVIN@AOL.COM29_Wed, 30 May 2007 13:17:50 EDT371_US-ASCII In a message dated 5/30/07 2:00:41 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
LISTSERV@SHAMASH.ORG writes:

> I thought you responded well to yourself with the thought that when you
> (as we all do) mess up, your kids get to see your tshuva. They get to
> learn forgiveness, the same thing we do for them as they are finding
> their way through life.
> [...]37_30May200713:17:50EDTRENALEVIN@AOL.COM 38329 91 17_Re: self-control?10_Sarah Kopp17_svkopp@012.NET.IL31_Wed, 30 May 2007 21:37:00 +0200533_ISO-8859-1 Laya and Rena have said it all so well, I just want to share something I
heard from a wonderful teacher here in Tsfat years ago that has always
stuck with me. She said, "I haven't conquered my yetzer hara yet, but at
least I can have a conversation with it." That's what I want my kids to
learn, that we don't *have* to be tzaddikim, we have to keep working at
bettering ourselves. The best way, maybe the only way, I can help them
with that is to let them see me working on myself, see me admit to [...]39_30May200721:37:00+0200svkopp@012.NET.IL 38421 38 15_Re: unschooling10_Sarah Kopp17_svkopp@012.NET.IL31_Wed, 30 May 2007 21:40:23 +0200479_ISO-8859-1 Louise Fox wrote:
>
>
> We go to a lot of museums (as a family, on Fridays {except when we're
> hiking or at the pool/beach} and with a homeschool group on
> Wednesdays) and do a lot of hiking (which in this country is a way of
> learning history, as well as geography!) Actually, we have a book
> called "Letayel im Hatanach" (hiking with the Tanach)
This book sounds great - is it available at Steimatzky's? Or in Judaica
bookstores? [...]39_30May200721:40:23+0200svkopp@012.NET.IL 38460 85 15_Re: unschooling10_Louise Fox20_fox.louise@GMAIL.COM31_Thu, 31 May 2007 08:27:56 +0300540_ISO-8859-1 I believe Steimatsky's has it on sale at the moment, for 74 instead of 99
NIS.

We have given it as gifts quite a few times since we found it last year :-)

Louise

On 5/30/07, Sarah Kopp wrote:
>
> Louise Fox wrote:
> >
> >
> > We go to a lot of museums (as a family, on Fridays {except when we're
> > hiking or at the pool/beach} and with a homeschool group on
> > Wednesdays) and do a lot of hiking (which in this country is a way of
> > learning history, [...]42_31May200708:27:56+0300fox.louise@GMAIL.COM