1 SHAMASH.ORG /usr/www/wwwhc/listserv/archives/torch-d April 2007
2 53 19_[QUAR] Introduction14_Gaby Neuburger17_ylb@NEUBURGER.ORG30_Fri, 6 Apr 2007 12:37:06 -0700393_ISO-8859-1 Hi, I'm Gaby Neuburger, I just joined this list, although I was a member a
couple of years ago. I have 2 daughters - ages 5 & 7. My older daughter
has been in the local day school for 1st and 2nd grade, but now the school's
closing - so we're going back to homeschooling. I've got some questions
regarding curriculum for you all, but I'll wait until after Yom Tov. [...]38_6Apr200712:37:06-0700ylb@NEUBURGER.ORG
56 30 13_Werner's book10_Sarah Kopp17_svkopp@012.NET.IL31_Fri, 13 Apr 2007 14:57:08 +0200249_ISO-8859-1 Hi Avivah,
Could you post the link to the publisher of your husband's children's
book again?
I have tried several times to access the list archives with no success.
Does anyone have a tip on how to get in?
Sarah39_13Apr200714:57:08+0200svkopp@012.NET.IL
87 63 17_Re: Werner's book13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Fri, 13 Apr 2007 09:51:01 -0700448_iso-8859-1 Sure, Sarah, here's the link: www.judaicapress.com - the book is called Pharoah and the Fabulous Frog Invasion.
I can't remember off the top of my head specifically how to access the archives, but when you go into your Shamash account, there should be an option on the first screen to go into the archives - I seem to remember that it was pretty straightforward, as long as you see on that screen where the archives link is. [...]44_13Apr200709:51:01-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM
151 66 17_Re: Werner's book6_Shayna17_ssheiny@YAHOO.COM31_Fri, 13 Apr 2007 06:58:02 -0700309_iso-8859-1 I don't have the link, but I wanted to let you know
that the book is adorable, Avivah! It was featured in
one of the bookstore's window, here in Chicago, and
when we walked by, DS was SO terribly excited by it!
We did get it for him, and the whole family has really
enjoyed it! [...]39_13Apr200706:58:02-0700ssheiny@YAHOO.COM
218 57 17_Re: Werner's book10_Sarah Kopp17_svkopp@012.NET.IL31_Sat, 14 Apr 2007 21:35:24 +0200611_windows-1252 Thanks. My husband is looking ofr a publisher for his children's book now.
Sarah
Avivah Werner wrote:
> Sure, Sarah, here's the link: www.judaicapress.com
> - the book is called Pharoah and the
> Fabulous Frog Invasion.
> I can't remember off the top of my head specifically how to access the
> archives, but when you go into your Shamash account, there should be
> an option on the first screen to go into the archives - I seem to
> remember that it was pretty straightforward, as long as you see on
> that screen where the [...]39_14Apr200721:35:24+0200svkopp@012.NET.IL
276 79 29_162 Websites on the HOlocaust16_Russell J Hendel17_rjhendel@JUNO.COM31_Sat, 14 Apr 2007 21:40:53 -0400583_us-ascii Hi
Holocaust Remembrance Day is Monday, April 16, 2007.
Jacob Richman posted162 links to learn about the Holocaust.
Site languages include English, Hebrew, French, German,
Italian, Portuguese, Russian and Spanish.
All 162 links have been reviewed / checked this week.
The web address is:
http://www.jr.co.il/hotsites/j-holoc.htm
This is a great opportunity for h-schoolers. In fact many day schools
do not teach about the holocaust so this is a way to show our superiority
in that h-schoolers have more curriculum flexibility. [...]39_14Apr200721:40:53-0400rjhendel@JUNO.COM
356 189 37_Re: Werner's book (community support)4_Laya17_tolife18@JUNO.COM29_Sun, 15 Apr 2007 04:06:12 GMT562_- Just for the record, a nice thing to do for a book if you love it is to post a customer review on Amazon or other sites that sell it. Since we're a small community, here's the page for the the frog book:
http://www.amazon.com/Pharaoh-Fabulous-Invasion-Osher-Werner/dp/1932443630/ref=sr_1_1/103-1155056-6342212?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1176609332&sr=1-1
Tagging the book (scroll to under the product details section of the page) is also helpful for getting the book to show up on searches. (two people already have--me inclulded!)
Shavuah tov!
Laya [...]37_15Apr200704:06:12GMTtolife18@JUNO.COM
546 70 25_homeschooling superiority13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Sat, 14 Apr 2007 21:39:53 -0700347_iso-8859-1 >>This is a great opportunity for h-schoolers. In fact many day schools
do not teach about the holocaust so this is a way to show our superiority
in that h-schoolers have more curriculum flexibility.<<
So if we cover more material or subjects than the schools, we're superior? What if they teach things that we don't? [...]44_14Apr200721:39:53-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM
617 59 19_Robinson curriculum13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Sat, 14 Apr 2007 21:42:43 -0700441_iso-8859-1 Does anyone have any experience with the Robinson curriculum (www.robinsoncurriculum.com)? I'm not big on packaged curriculum, but am willing to look into approaches towards curriculum that seem similar to my own, and look at how to best adapt them. This one has some features that I find interesting, particularly their emphasis on quality literature and learning through books, as well as encouraging independent learning. [...]44_14Apr200721:42:43-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM
677 97 29_Re: homeschooling superiority14_Bill Bernstein27_billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET31_Sat, 14 Apr 2007 23:48:40 -0500504_windows-1252 Hmm. I'll need to mull this one.
On the one hand, there is a "community standard" so to speak that if you
do as good a job as the school system then you've been succesful. No one
will tell you "oh you should have sent your kids to school." There is
definitely value in that.
On the other hand, you are right that education is preparation for life
so the ultimate test really is, how well-prepared is your kid for life.
And the answer won't be apparant for decades. [...]49_14Apr200723:48:40-0500billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET
775 74 29_Re: homeschooling superiority6_Zohari20_najova@EARTHLINK.NET31_Sat, 14 Apr 2007 22:46:06 -0600327_US-ASCII > The issue is if they are being prepared for success in the world they will
> encounter as they get older, and each of us defines that differently. I think
> that knowing what your goals as a parent are is really, really important, and
> will keep us on track regardless of what everyone else is doing. [...]42_14Apr200722:46:06-0600najova@EARTHLINK.NET
850 52 55_Re: HomeSchooling Superiority-Answers to Bill and Aviva16_Russell J Hendel17_rjhendel@JUNO.COM31_Sun, 15 Apr 2007 01:31:01 -0400462_us-ascii Bill and Aviva both raised points at my assertion that
the capacity for h-schoolers to expose their children to
websites on the holocast "shows the superiority of h-schooling"
Aviva suggested that "So if we do more than someone else we are better?
And what if they do things we dont do?" She went on to develop this theme
While I agree with her values "So what if one does more than the other"
but she
has missed my point. [...]39_15Apr200701:31:01-0400rjhendel@JUNO.COM
903 63 29_Re: homeschooling superiority10_Louise Fox20_fox.louise@GMAIL.COM31_Sun, 15 Apr 2007 08:36:58 +0300425_ISO-8859-1 Bill,
I think your examples below make a good case for Aviva's point that
our kids should be prepared for life in the real world. These people
obviously weren't/aren't.
I don't think it's a case of how many subjects, but attitude to
learning (as part of life). A child or adult who is well prepared will
do research and learn whatever he needs to when he needs it or comes
across it. [...]42_15Apr200708:36:58+0300fox.louise@GMAIL.COM
967 41 41_Re: homeschooling superiority (0.15/3.20)14_Rebecca Harper22_hudabecca@RAINMALL.COM31_Sun, 15 Apr 2007 08:01:41 -0400511_ISO-8859-1 Not sure if my message will go through- I can receive the emails but the server is rejecting any that I send.
I think it is VERY important for people to be well rounded. We all need to have a basic level of understanding of the world around us. We need to know the basic idea of evolution - what it is and why we do not hold by it. We need to know how many planets in our solar system and that we rotate around the sun. We need to know the very basic understanding of the major religions [...]44_15Apr200708:01:41-0400hudabecca@RAINMALL.COM
1009 30 19_Robinson Curriculum0_20_joyzil@ATTGLOBAL.NET31_Sun, 15 Apr 2007 05:15:17 +0000338_- Hi,
I bought this at one stage, but felt I got very little for the money. However
the large problem was the Christian content which did not fit in with us at
all. Personally, I don’t think it suitable for Jewish families. There is also a
lot of their own pseudo scientific material in amongst the works on the CDs. [...]42_15Apr200705:15:17+0000joyzil@ATTGLOBAL.NET
1040 30 17_Re: Werner's book17_Rachel Turniansky28_rachelturniansky@HOTMAIL.COM31_Sun, 15 Apr 2007 10:01:09 -0400681_- We loved this book.
I would encourage Rabbi Werner to fill a much needed void and focus his next
project on a book for Lag B'Omer:-)
Kol tuv,
Rachel
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1071 192 23_Re: Robinson curriculum5_Kelli33_Natural_Irish_Terrier@COMCAST.NET31_Sun, 15 Apr 2007 10:20:23 -0400526_iso-8859-1 Save your money. If you want good literature buy Sonlight, it has little Christian content and is easily modified for the books that are Christian (which aren't that many). Many secular people, many Jews, Muslims, Hindus etc used Sonlight and are very happy with it.
Kelli Armes
and the Terriers
http://armes92614.blogspot.com/
----- Original Message -----
From: Avivah Werner
To: TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG
Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2007 12:42 AM
Subject: [TORCH-D] Robinson curriculum [...]55_15Apr200710:20:23-0400Natural_Irish_Terrier@COMCAST.NET
1264 107 29_Re: homeschooling superiority10_Sarah Kopp17_svkopp@012.NET.IL31_Sun, 15 Apr 2007 17:58:10 +0200628_windows-1252 It depends on which school system you compare yourself too - right? In
my kids' (previous) schools (chassidishe Talmudei Torah) no secular
subjects are taught except Hebrew grammar and basic arithmetic. So we
got a lot of flack for leaving them uneducated. We were convinced that
learning gemara would give them great thinking and analytic skills, adn
they could catch up on anything else they needed to get later in life.
So far the three oldest ( who are out of school) are all doing great
pursuing their individual interests. They don't know much about
evolution, except that one of [...]39_15Apr200717:58:10+0200svkopp@012.NET.IL
1372 70 23_Re: Robinson curriculum13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Sun, 15 Apr 2007 09:25:50 -0700464_iso-8859-1 I've used and modified the Sonlight approach in the past (bought the Instructor Guide for levels 5 and 6). I love the idea of learning through literature, but Sonlight is very highly dependent on the parent as teacher, and having more than two levels to cover using their program is overwhelmingly difficult due to the time requirements. As my kids get older, I want them to be doing more and more on their own, with me being the oversight person. [...]44_15Apr200709:25:50-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM
1443 30 8_sonlight15_Michelle Miller25_michelletamar@HOTMAIL.COM31_Sun, 15 Apr 2007 11:16:26 -0700491_- I have used Sonlight. The reading lists are great. I agree with Aviva that
it is too teacher dependent for me. What I've done is get the books and
assign them for the kids to read. They do enjoy the books and tell me about
them when they finish. I like the markable maps too. We use them with
Jewish books like Going Global. Currently, for secular we focus almost
entirely on math, writing, and grammar. Anything else...science and
history....I throw in when I can. [...]47_15Apr200711:16:26-0700michelletamar@HOTMAIL.COM
1474 65 12_Re: sonlight14_Hadas laureano20_hadasl@SBCGLOBAL.NET31_Sun, 15 Apr 2007 12:00:56 -0700622_iso-8859-1 any recommendations for secular subjects for a 10 year
old girl going into sixth grade....??? thank
you...Hadas What have you all found helpful? I am
supplementing her frum school right now...where
unfortunately she is missing out on quite a bit of
secular studies......
--- Michelle Miller wrote:
> I have used Sonlight. The reading lists are great.
> I agree with Aviva that
> it is too teacher dependent for me. What I've done
> is get the books and
> assign them for the kids to read. They do enjoy the
> books and tell me about
> [...]42_15Apr200712:00:56-0700hadasl@SBCGLOBAL.NET
1540 38 11_Quick intro2_CB23_chavayocheved@YAHOO.COM31_Sun, 15 Apr 2007 12:10:50 -0700472_iso-8859-1 Hello everyone, I'm Chava and I live in Tzfas. I've
lived here for about a year and a half. I'm really
interested in homeschooling, and I like what I've read
about the Montessori Method, and I'd like to learn
more about that. We're a religious family, and my one
concern with homeschooling is learning Torah at home,
although that probably won't be too much of an issue
until my children are older (my son is 8.5 months
right now). [...]45_15Apr200712:10:50-0700chavayocheved@YAHOO.COM
1579 174 15_Re: Quick intro5_Kelli33_Natural_Irish_Terrier@COMCAST.NET31_Sun, 15 Apr 2007 15:45:43 -0400392_iso-8859-1 Montessori method is awesome. Here is a site that may help. Though if you Google it you will find tons of others I am sure.
http://www.montessori.edu/homeschooling.html
I have often thought about getting my certification in Montessori for after we finish homeschooling. I have always liked the school of thought behind it.
Kelli Armes
and the Terriers [...]55_15Apr200715:45:43-0400Natural_Irish_Terrier@COMCAST.NET
1754 83 29_Re: homeschooling superiority0_21_YiddisheMameh@AOL.COM29_Sun, 15 Apr 2007 15:47:13 EDT456_US-ASCII My kids have not learned about the theory of evolution...no reason for it.
I taught my kids however, that we do believe in the Big Bang, our definition
of it is different though.
We believe the Big Bang means, G-d said it, and BANG! It happened! ;)
Chana
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Zionists needed a state in order to turn Jews into heretics."--Rabbi
Chaim Soloveitchik [...]41_15Apr200715:47:13EDTYiddisheMameh@AOL.COM
1838 115 15_Re: Quick intro2_CB23_chavayocheved@YAHOO.COM31_Sun, 15 Apr 2007 12:51:28 -0700392_iso-8859-1 Thanks for the link, I'm going to check it out now. :)
One thing that I think doesn't mesh so much with
Mont. and homeschooling is that there are different
age groups learning together in Mont. schools - that's
difficult to do at home (unless, of course, you have
multiple children of different ages). I don't know, I
like what I've read about it though. :) [...]45_15Apr200712:51:28-0700chavayocheved@YAHOO.COM
1954 45 10_Montessori0_20_joyzil@ATTGLOBAL.NET31_Sun, 15 Apr 2007 22:12:22 +0000501_- Hi again,
I agree that Sonlight is a great source of books! Actually I trained as a
Montessori teacher for ages 0-15 and have found it very useful while
homeschooling. Like many homeschoolers we pick and choose. We do use
Charlotte mason and Sonlight reading lists for literature choices as well.
There are some Catholic homeschoolers who combine Classical and
Montessori and have published a few books about setting that up -
obviously slanted towards their faith [...]42_15Apr200722:12:22+0000joyzil@ATTGLOBAL.NET
2000 48 28_montessori (was quick intro)17_Rachel Turniansky28_rachelturniansky@HOTMAIL.COM31_Mon, 16 Apr 2007 08:31:37 -0400435_- >From: CB
>
>Thanks for the link, I'm going to check it out now. :)
> One thing that I think doesn't mesh so much with
>Mont. and homeschooling is that there are different
>age groups learning together in Mont. schools - that's
>difficult to do at home (unless, of course, you have
>multiple children of different ages). I don't know, I
>like what I've read about it though. :) [...]50_16Apr200708:31:37-0400rachelturniansky@HOTMAIL.COM
2049 77 15_Re: Quick intro10_Louise Fox20_fox.louise@GMAIL.COM31_Mon, 16 Apr 2007 15:32:41 +0300633_ISO-8859-1 Chava,
It'll make more sense when you have more kids (Be'ezrat Hashem) - my kids
learn so much from playing together. I also love it when the older ones
spontaneously explain things to the younger ones...
Personally, I'm not into Montessori, or any "method" - we are unschoolers.
:-)
Louise
in Emek Ha'Ela, Israel
On 4/15/07, CB wrote:
>
> Thanks for the link, I'm going to check it out now. :)
> One thing that I think doesn't mesh so much with
> Mont. and homeschooling is that there are different
> age groups learning together in Mont. [...]42_16Apr200715:32:41+0300fox.louise@GMAIL.COM
2127 65 18_Re: hsing siblings13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Mon, 16 Apr 2007 10:20:07 -0700326_iso-8859-1 It's hard for me to imagine homeschooling with just one child, since we started with five at home. Things would be so quiet without all the stimulation the kids provide one another (right now, ds8 and dd6 are playing math war, with ds4 looking on). Definitely siblings can be a huge academic and social asset. [...]44_16Apr200710:20:07-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM
2193 62 29_Re: homeschooling superiority14_Jennifer Moran20_jrmoran@UCHICAGO.EDU31_Mon, 16 Apr 2007 16:16:06 -0500497_us-ascii Hello Parents,
I know this is not the "evolution discussion list", but
since all the comments have thusfar been "of course we don't
hold by that", I thought I would point out that many
prominent rebbeim, from Rav Soloveitchik to Rav Kook, had no
theological problem with evolution, provided we understand
it as a way in which HaShem created and continues to create
and change the world, and provided we acknowledge the unique
nature of the Human Neshama. [...]42_16Apr200716:16:06-0500jrmoran@UCHICAGO.EDU
2256 72 13_Contact hours6_Zohari20_najova@EARTHLINK.NET31_Mon, 16 Apr 2007 16:08:43 -0600597_ISO-8859-1 This is a question I have wanted to ask the list for a long time. How do
you all deal with the issue of "contact hours" as per your state's
homeschool requirements? This is something that causes me a bit of
background static as I am always concerned about getting in enough time.
Now I am sure that their version of contact hours means book work and
experiments. My version is probably something very different, i.e. cooking,
gardening, art projects, etc. Can some of you reply with examples of how
you keep records that meet requirements but also account for [...]42_16Apr200716:08:43-0600najova@EARTHLINK.NET
2329 100 32_Re: montessori (was quick intro)2_CB23_chavayocheved@YAHOO.COM31_Mon, 16 Apr 2007 15:03:28 -0700382_iso-8859-1 I always (well, usually) love what I hear about Mont.
schools. I think that Maria Mont. had some wonderful
ideas. I understand that some people unschool, or
don't follow one theory, but the Mont. method really
hit home with me, reading about it anyway. It's not
my personality to unschool. :)
I'm always ready and willing to learn more, tho... [...]45_16Apr200715:03:28-0700chavayocheved@YAHOO.COM
2430 45 32_Re: montessori (was quick intro)14_Jennifer Moran20_jrmoran@UCHICAGO.EDU31_Mon, 16 Apr 2007 18:29:43 -0500618_us-ascii Chava wrote:
>I always (well, usually) love what I hear about Mont.
>schools. I think that Maria Mont. had some wonderful
>ideas. I understand that some people unschool, or
>don't follow one theory, but the Mont. method really
>hit home with me, reading about it anyway. It's not
>my personality to unschool. :)
As list members have said before, so much is about matching
the method to the child. Montessori is a fabulous method,
one that works very well for many children. I went to a
Montessori kindergarten and loved it; it's a good fit for my
learning style and, [...]42_16Apr200718:29:43-0500jrmoran@UCHICAGO.EDU
2476 30 13_contact hours15_Michelle Miller25_michelletamar@HOTMAIL.COM31_Mon, 16 Apr 2007 18:21:30 -0700627_- Shoshana,
Since I consider hschooling a "lifestyle" that goes 24/7 I just write down
5-6 contact hours per day. Having said that, I'm enrolled in an umbrella
school that shields me from the state. There are many of these in CO and
you don't actually have to attend anything to enroll.
michelle
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2507 77 41_Re: homeschooling superiority (0.15/3.20)13_Sharon Brooks23_Sharonajb@SBCGLOBAL.NET31_Mon, 16 Apr 2007 19:59:50 -0700353_iso-8859-1 One of my areas of conncern in trying to plan my children's education - home
or schooled - is the uncertainty about the world they will be living in. I
agree that factual knowledge of any concept can easily be supplemented later
in life. Certainly, for example, my knowledge of the history taught in
schol is spotty at best. [...]45_16Apr200719:59:50-0700Sharonajb@SBCGLOBAL.NET
2585 100 41_Re: homeschooling superiority (0.15/3.20)18_Benjamin H Dickman27_bdickman@ALCATEL-LUCENT.COM31_Tue, 17 Apr 2007 01:42:02 -0400360_UTF-8 bs'd
Sharon,
I remember learning that "mi pi sofrim v'lo mi pi sfarim" is telling
us not to learn from books alone. We need a human chain of teacher
to student. And what the best teachers could teach us if we stayed
with them could not be gotten from books. That has been my personal
experience, and I have been fortunate. [...]49_17Apr200701:42:02-0400bdickman@ALCATEL-LUCENT.COM
2686 80 17_Re: contact hours14_Malkie Swidler18_malkie18@GMAIL.COM31_Tue, 17 Apr 2007 10:01:40 +0300305_ISO-8859-1 FInd out the number they want to hear and give it to them. If you belong to
a homeschooling group in your area, ask around to find out how others handle
this one. The entire notion of "contact hours" isn't really applicable, so
essentially you have to pull a number out of a hat. [...]40_17Apr200710:01:40+0300malkie18@GMAIL.COM
2767 68 29_Re: homeschooling superiority10_Sarah Kopp17_svkopp@012.NET.IL31_Tue, 17 Apr 2007 12:21:46 +0200629_ISO-8859-1 Thank you for pointing this out Jennifer. I just want to clarify that
when my (cheder educated) son expressed disbelief that anyone could
believe in such narishkeit, he was referring specifically to the idea
that mankind evolved from monkeys, not to evolution as a whole.
Sarah
Tsfat, Israel
Jennifer Moran wrote:
> Hello Parents,
>
> I know this is not the "evolution discussion list", but
> since all the comments have thusfar been "of course we don't
> hold by that", I thought I would point out that many
> prominent rebbeim, from Rav Soloveitchik to Rav Kook, had [...]39_17Apr200712:21:46+0200svkopp@012.NET.IL
2836 97 32_Re: montessori (was quick intro)2_CB23_chavayocheved@YAHOO.COM31_Tue, 17 Apr 2007 03:30:17 -0700375_iso-8859-1 Completely agree, Jennifer! I think that if we use any
Montessori methods at home, I'll definitely supplement
with some more imaginitive play and creativity.
We'll see.. I don't want to plan too much since he's
onlu 8.5 months old and I need to see how HIS
personality develops, but it's also in my personality
to plan!! What to do.. :) [...]45_17Apr200703:30:17-0700chavayocheved@YAHOO.COM
2934 111 41_Re: homeschooling superiority (0.15/3.20)17_Chana Silberstein16_cs32@CORNELL.EDU31_Tue, 17 Apr 2007 10:51:23 -0400631_iso-8859-1 >Sharon,
While I reject the notion that there is any long-term harm done to your
child by keeping them from x-box ( why is a whole different discussion),
you do raise a significant point in noting the importance of mentors and
good peers in developing character and intellectual depth. As
homeschoolers, we have more control ( particularly in the early years) of
deciding how and when these mentors and peers enter our children's lives,
but there is certainly ample opportunity to bring them in, and bring them
in we should.
Homeschooling need not mean social isolation, nor does it mean [...]38_17Apr200710:51:23-0400cs32@CORNELL.EDU
3046 96 29_Re: homeschooling superiority28_Jamie Rosenblum Lichtenstein25_JROSENBL@HSPH.HARVARD.EDU31_Tue, 17 Apr 2007 11:47:19 -0400397_US-ASCII Evolutionary scientists don't believe man evolved from monkeys. They believe that both have a common ancestor. Only Hollywood and misinformed elementary school science teachers believe man evolved from monkeys.
I feel like if you want to teach your kids that you don't believe in evolution that's your prerogative, but at least correctly teach them what you don't believe in. [...]47_17Apr200711:47:19-0400JROSENBL@HSPH.HARVARD.EDU
3143 114 41_Re: homeschooling superiority (0.15/3.20)15_Michelle Miller25_michelletamar@HOTMAIL.COM31_Tue, 17 Apr 2007 07:04:33 -0700602_- Sharon,
Yes, I make a concerted effort to keep my kids from the secular world, and
I'm not charedi. I KNOW what I'm keeping them from. What are they missing?
Minds saturated with sex (and of the most perverted kinds) and violence,
knowledge of drugs and acceptance of its normalcy, disrespect of elders,
inability to be creative due to mind numbing, excessive use of electronic
media. If my children have an income potential that is lower due to these
restrictions, I happily accept that. One of the things I want them to learn
is that money doesn't make one content [...]47_17Apr200707:04:33-0700michelletamar@HOTMAIL.COM
3258 102 29_Re: homeschooling superiority13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Tue, 17 Apr 2007 11:42:55 -0700483_iso-8859-1 This is really the same question as how to be sure that our kids won't have any gaps in our education. Of course they will have gaps, regardless of where or how they are educated. There will by definition have to be limitations to every child's development, because as human beings we are limited. I don't think there's any person who has grown to adulthood and found that they had every skill in every area - so what have we all done? Learn the new necessary skill. [...]44_17Apr200711:42:55-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM
3361 52 43_Re: mentors (was homeschooling superiority)14_Jennifer Moran20_jrmoran@UCHICAGO.EDU31_Tue, 17 Apr 2007 13:45:30 -0500518_us-ascii Chana wrote:
>As homeschoolers, we have more control (particularly in
>the early years) of deciding how and when these mentors and
>peers enter our children's lives, but there is certainly
>ample opportunity to bring them in, and bring them in we
>should. Homeschooling need not mean social isolation, nor
>does it mean you must be your child's only "teacher."
>Actively seek out the people who you think can enrich your
>child's life, and let them share what they have to offer. [...]42_17Apr200713:45:30-0500jrmoran@UCHICAGO.EDU
3414 38 29_Re: homeschooling superiority10_Sarah Kopp17_svkopp@012.NET.IL31_Tue, 17 Apr 2007 20:04:38 +0200631_ISO-8859-1 Jamie Rosenblum Lichtenstein wrote:
> Evolutionary scientists don't believe man evolved from monkeys. They believe that both have a common ancestor. Only Hollywood and misinformed elementary school science teachers believe man evolved from monkeys.
>
> I feel like if you want to teach your kids that you don't believe in evolution that's your prerogative, but at least correctly teach them what you don't believe in.
>
> Jamie
>
I didn't teach him anything about it, he asked if my mother believed it.
And you are right but still the whole idea just seemed ridiculous to him
because, as [...]39_17Apr200720:04:38+0200svkopp@012.NET.IL
3453 281 18_of monkeys and men4_Laya17_tolife18@JUNO.COM29_Tue, 17 Apr 2007 19:27:20 GMT443_- Do I dare?
I have my own theory of what those ancient bones they found were. Remember in Bavel when the tower was destroyed? There is a midrash that the men on the tower that shot arrows at Gd were turned into monkeys. So... there you are.
:0)
Laya
Author of the best loved book for teens
"You Don't Have to Learn Everything the Hard Way"
www.AuntLaya.com
http://tinyurl.com/22fntt
www.auntlaya.blogspot.com [...]37_17Apr200719:27:20GMTtolife18@JUNO.COM
3735 39 17_Re: Contact hours14_Jennifer Moran20_jrmoran@UCHICAGO.EDU31_Tue, 17 Apr 2007 17:49:51 -0500492_us-ascii Shoshana Z. wrote:
> Now I am sure that
> their version of contact hours means book work and
> experiments. My version is probably something very
> different, i.e. cooking, gardening, art projects,
> etc.
If those things were happening in school, they would be
counted as contact hours. The teacher would describe the
lesson as "explore fractions and measurement by baking
muffins" or somesuch; you can do the same with a clear
conscience. [...]42_17Apr200717:49:51-0500jrmoran@UCHICAGO.EDU
3775 37 43_Re: mentors (was homeschooling superiority)14_Jennifer Moran20_jrmoran@UCHICAGO.EDU31_Tue, 17 Apr 2007 18:08:13 -0500604_us-ascii Avivah wrote:
> About your comments regarding rebbes in school, I
> have a lot to say, especially since I recently spent
> quite a bit of time seriously researching the local
> high school opportunities for ds. I'll say in
> short, that it's overrated.
I also wanted to point out that being a great scholar/mentor
and being a great classroom teacher are two very different
sets of skills. I know some wonderful rebbeim who are not at
their best when managing a class of antsy pre-teens, and
some teachers who are great at managing a classroom but
maybe [...]42_17Apr200718:08:13-0500jrmoran@UCHICAGO.EDU
3813 100 43_Re: mentors (was homeschooling superiority)14_Hadas laureano20_hadasl@SBCGLOBAL.NET31_Tue, 17 Apr 2007 20:17:04 -0700682_iso-8859-1 Could anyone please recommend to me how to supplement
my daughter's english curriculum from her school, she
is in 5th grade...english is our not our first
language, but i will try anything to help her...she
needs EVERYthing english related....Help!!!! what
resources should I use........Thank you ...Hadas
--- Jennifer Moran wrote:
> Chana wrote:
> >As homeschoolers, we have more control
> (particularly in
> >the early years) of deciding how and when these
> mentors and
> >peers enter our children's lives, but there is
> certainly
> >ample opportunity to bring them in, and bring them
> in [...]42_17Apr200720:17:04-0700hadasl@SBCGLOBAL.NET
3914 103 32_Re: superiority of homeschooling0_17_RENALEVIN@AOL.COM29_Wed, 18 Apr 2007 11:17:54 EDT623_US-ASCII In a message dated 4/16/07 2:01:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
LISTSERV@SHAMASH.ORG writes:
> We need to know the very basic understanding of the major religions of the
> world=
> , and how they differ from us.
Just came back from 3 days in NYC....was in Barnes and Noble in midtown, came
across a young man, dressed in Chassidish garb, sitting on the floor, reading
a book. Nice, intellectual curiosity, you might say....BUT, I decided
(unfortunately) to glance down, since I was curious about what he was reading in such
an absorbed fashion. IThe page I saw had a headline: [...]37_18Apr200711:17:54EDTRENALEVIN@AOL.COM
4018 111 28_Re: Studying other religions14_Evelyn Krieger18_ek2000@COMCAST.NET31_Wed, 18 Apr 2007 11:43:27 -0400594_iso-8859-1 Rena wrote....
Just came back from 3 days in NYC....was in Barnes and Noble in midtown, came across a young man, dressed in Chassidish garb, sitting on the floor, reading a book. Nice, intellectual curiosity, you might say....BUT, I decided (unfortunately) to glance down, since I was curious about what he was reading in such an absorbed fashion. IThe page I saw had a headline: Major beliefs of the Catholic church. I was feeling so upset, since I felt that perhaps I was being nosy by looking at what this young man was reading in a public place, sitting cross-legged [...]40_18Apr200711:43:27-0400ek2000@COMCAST.NET
4130 114 34_English Curriculum Supplementation6_Zohari20_najova@EARTHLINK.NET31_Wed, 18 Apr 2007 10:23:51 -0600470_US-ASCII > Could anyone please recommend to me how to supplement
> my daughter's english curriculum from her school, she
> is in 5th grade...english is our not our first
> language, but i will try anything to help her...she
> needs EVERYthing english related....Help!!!! what
> resources should I use........Thank you ...Hadas
Dear Hadas,
Just for background, am I correct that Hebrew is your first language or is
it something else? [...]42_18Apr200710:23:51-0600najova@EARTHLINK.NET
4245 47 41_Creation (was: homeschooling superiority)10_Larry Beck19_larry@BECKFORCE.COM31_Wed, 18 Apr 2007 12:09:16 -0400586_us-ascii Sarah,
My Rabbi held that both Creation and HaShem directed evolution are supported
in the Torah. He said the apparent two stories of Creation are really
different views of the same creation. The second story (i.e., Adam and Hava)
is the story of the spiritual creation and the first story (i.e., the 7 days
of Creation) is the story of the physical creation. If you look at the steps
in the 7 Days Story you see that it parallels the steps in the "Theory of
Evolution". The point is it really does not matter exactly how HaShem did it
because [...]41_18Apr200712:09:16-0400larry@BECKFORCE.COM
4293 47 45_Re: Creation (was: homeschooling superiority)14_Jennifer Moran20_jrmoran@UCHICAGO.EDU31_Wed, 18 Apr 2007 15:53:30 -0500654_us-ascii Larry, I agree with everything you said, except this:
>The real purpose behind the teaching of Evolution by
>the "Separation of Church and State" crowd is
>to remove HaShem from the picture.
While there are certainly a few evolutionary biologists who
are hyper-materialists and militant atheists, I don't agree
that most people who teach evolution are trying to sell
students on an atheist agenda. They are trying to teach
scientific methodology, which really should not be taking a
stance on religion one way or the other. As for separation
of church and state, there's good reason for Jews to be
[...]42_18Apr200715:53:30-0500jrmoran@UCHICAGO.EDU
4341 63 48_Re: was Creation, now religion in public schools13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Wed, 18 Apr 2007 15:10:11 -0700436_iso-8859-1 I'm not enjoying this conversation on evolution, so I'm not going to comment on it. Obviously some people have strong opinions, I personally don't feel strongly enough to comment on those I disagree with.
>>As for separation
of church and state, there's good reason for Jews to be
concerned about the public schools becoming centers for
teaching Xian ideology, whether our kids are in them or
not. << [...]44_18Apr200715:10:11-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM
4405 171 48_Re: was Creation, now religion in public schools10_Larry Beck19_larry@BECKFORCE.COM31_Wed, 18 Apr 2007 20:01:11 -0400612_us-ascii Jennifer,
I don't believe the idea to remove HaShem from Creation is done on purpose
(for the most part) but the effect of the way they teach evolution has that
effect.
Avivah,
I completely agree with you. I think it would be much better if the
government schools taught Xian ideology in their schools. The amoral
attitude of the the schools now produces a society of amoral non-believers
(whether that be atheists or agnostics). Xians in this day and age, and
especially in America, are not a threat to the Jews. But amoralists will not
stand up for Jews against [...]41_18Apr200720:01:11-0400larry@BECKFORCE.COM
4577 77 45_Re: Creation (was: homeschooling superiority)15_Michelle Miller25_michelletamar@HOTMAIL.COM31_Wed, 18 Apr 2007 13:11:20 -0700748_- There are consequences to believing we descend from monkeys, Gd forbid.
michelle
>From: Larry Beck
>Reply-To: Torah-Centered Homeschooling
>To: TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG
>Subject: [TORCH-D] Creation (was: homeschooling superiority)
>Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 12:09:16 -0400
>
>Sarah,
>
>My Rabbi held that both Creation and HaShem directed evolution are
>supported
>in the Torah. He said the apparent two stories of Creation are really
>different views of the same creation. The second story (i.e., Adam and
>Hava)
>is the story of the spiritual creation and the first story (i.e., the 7
>days
>of Creation) is the story of the physical creation. [...]47_18Apr200713:11:20-0700michelletamar@HOTMAIL.COM
4655 35 12_evolution...15_Michelle Miller25_michelletamar@HOTMAIL.COM31_Wed, 18 Apr 2007 18:04:28 -0700615_- Avivah,
I so agree with you. This country would be so much better off if kids in
public schools were taught Xtian values instead of Gd hating, secular
humanism (the state religion it seems). My liberal Jewish doctor recently
told me about the horror of kids handing out New Testaments on public school
grounds. She was flummoxed when I said I thought that was a great idea.
What would she prefer...the Koran? chas v'shalom. There's a great book,
"Xtian Revival for Israel's Survival" written by a religious Jew. It's an
important read for those who love Israel and want America's [...]47_18Apr200718:04:28-0700michelletamar@HOTMAIL.COM
4691 104 12_Re: Creation14_Bill Bernstein27_billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET31_Wed, 18 Apr 2007 22:02:47 -0500737_ISO-8859-1 What would those consequences be? I am not aware of any ikkarim that
demand we believe in Biblical literalism (actually the opposite).
Bill Bernstein
Nashville TN.
Michelle Miller wrote:
> There are consequences to believing we descend from monkeys, Gd forbid.
>
> michelle
>
>
>> From: Larry Beck
>> Reply-To: Torah-Centered Homeschooling
>> To: TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG
>> Subject: [TORCH-D] Creation (was: homeschooling superiority)
>> Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 12:09:16 -0400
>>
>> Sarah,
>>
>> My Rabbi held that both Creation and HaShem directed evolution are
>> supported
>> in the Torah. He said the apparent [...]49_18Apr200722:02:47-0500billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET
4796 35 14_evolution...oy15_Michelle Miller25_michelletamar@HOTMAIL.COM31_Wed, 18 Apr 2007 21:55:19 -0700639_- Hi Bill,
I'm thinking this topic is really played out on the list, so here are my
final thoughts (they don't originate from me though). The secular culture
mostly believes they descend from monkeys, apes...whatever. They venerate
animalistic behavior (particularly, but not exclusively sexual). And why
not? Their ancestors are in fact...animals! My ancestors are Abraham,
Issac, and Jacob. The farther back I go...the holier. The farther back
they go...the more barbaric. It's a psychological difference. While I
understand that there is a kosher way to look at Creation differently, I
don't buy it. [...]47_18Apr200721:55:19-0700michelletamar@HOTMAIL.COM
4832 150 14_Re: evolution?0_17_RENALEVIN@AOL.COM29_Thu, 19 Apr 2007 07:14:28 EDT576_US-ASCII First, Evelyn, thanks for giving me yet another spin on the boy in Barnes and
Noble, it is possible that there are legitimate reasons for his choice of
reading material.....I was just shocked and therefore could not think of any at
the time!
as far as consequences of thinking that man is descended from monkeys, what I
think Michelle is saying is that if you believe that man is descended from
monkeys, then it is logical that man is limited as to what can be expected of
him in terms of thought and behavior. After all, he is not that [...]37_19Apr200707:14:28EDTRENALEVIN@AOL.COM
4983 61 18_Re: evolution...oy14_Bill Bernstein27_billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET31_Thu, 19 Apr 2007 09:27:31 -0500453_ISO-8859-1 Hmm, don't know about that.
"Our ancestors worshipped idols." The Torah is pretty explicit on this
point. So while we're descended from Avrohom, etc, we're also
descendents of Terach and some not so nice folks as well.
I suspect the reaction against evolution is really a reaction to the
idea of humans as animals with verbal skills and opposable thumbs. And
that is something to be opposed to.
KT
Bill Bernstein [...]49_19Apr200709:27:31-0500billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET
5045 61 18_Re: evolution...oy10_Larry Beck19_larry@BECKFORCE.COM31_Thu, 19 Apr 2007 12:39:39 -0400602_us-ascii Michelle and Rena,
If you believe in evolution without HaShem then everything you say is
correct. But because HaShem is in control and running the show then Creation
via evolution is no different than Creation "ex nihilo". Otherwise you would
have to say that once we came from "nothing" and are worth nothing and
therefore coming from animals would be better than from nothing. The idea is
that HaShem can do it however He thinks is best. Even if HaShem evolved us
from animals he has changed us so we are NOT now animals. So the original
connection is gone. [...]41_19Apr200712:39:39-0400larry@BECKFORCE.COM
5107 45 18_Re: evolution...oy6_Shayna17_ssheiny@YAHOO.COM31_Thu, 19 Apr 2007 07:48:08 -0700376_iso-8859-1 Having grown up non-frum, and really secular, and also
having attended public school, I think that we're
making assumptions about evolution causes people to
think. Most people I know (and knew) never really
gave it a 2nd thought, never said, "Well, we're
descended from apes, so we might as well be sexually
liberal and not have any values." [...]39_19Apr200707:48:08-0700ssheiny@YAHOO.COM
5153 48 48_Re: was Creation, now religion in public schools6_Shayna17_ssheiny@YAHOO.COM31_Thu, 19 Apr 2007 07:41:40 -0700353_iso-8859-1 Larry,
The problem is that many secular or non-Orthodox (and
some Orthodox) Jews DO put their kids in public
schools. So it IS a problem, even if it shouldn't be.
I have issues with the public schools teaching Xian
theology. I do NOT have issue with them teaching
morals. I do believe you can separate the two. [...]39_19Apr200707:41:40-0700ssheiny@YAHOO.COM
5202 67 18_Re: evolution...oy14_Jennifer Moran20_jrmoran@UCHICAGO.EDU31_Thu, 19 Apr 2007 12:14:09 -0500680_us-ascii Given that most Americans are scientifically illiterate,
it's hard for me to believe that teaching science (including
evolution) in schools is responsible for immorality in this
country.
I would also be interested in an historical example of where
establishing a Xian theocracy was good for the Jews.
But I fear we're veering pretty far from the original
discussion about what/how to teach our children (which was
rather respectful and productive, I thought, given the
diversity of opinion on this list) and into the sort of
politically divisive issues that are bound to engender ill
will without accomplishing much. For the [...]42_19Apr200712:14:09-0500jrmoran@UCHICAGO.EDU
5270 68 48_Re: was Creation, now religion in public schools13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Thu, 19 Apr 2007 15:25:12 -0700565_iso-8859-1 >>I have issues with the public schools teaching Xian
theology.<<
It's interesting to me how our general society has gotten so inured to what goes on in today's public schools that the things that are currently taught and promoted aren't viewed as objectionable - you can kill a frog by slowly heating up the pot of water he's in and he will boil to death, but if you tried to put in directly in a pot of boiling water, he'd immediately jump out. He doesn't realize the temperature is rising because he slowly gets used to it. It's a very [...]44_19Apr200715:25:12-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM
5339 32 18_government schools15_Michelle Miller25_michelletamar@HOTMAIL.COM31_Thu, 19 Apr 2007 15:46:30 -0700429_- Avivah,
I believe the term you are searching for is "moral relativism" (the sacred
gospel of government schools and our secular culture). As usual, you have
explained succinctly the problem.... separating morality from its source.
BTW, I don't think government schools are appropriate for ANY
children....Jewish or not! Gentile children deserve better than having
their brains morally scrambled too. [...]47_19Apr200715:46:30-0700michelletamar@HOTMAIL.COM
5372 64 36_moral relativism - thanks, Michelle!13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Thu, 19 Apr 2007 17:11:33 -0700541_iso-8859-1 That's exactly the term I was groping for, Michelle! Thanks - now I'll fix it in my mind! :)
Avivah
>>I believe the term you are searching for is "moral relativism" (the sacred
gospel of government schools and our secular culture). As usual, you have
explained succinctly the problem.... separating morality from its source.
BTW, I don't think government schools are appropriate for ANY
children....Jewish or not! Gentile children deserve better than having
their brains morally scrambled too.<< [...]44_19Apr200717:11:33-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM
5437 39 15_charter schools13_Sharon Brooks23_Sharonajb@SBCGLOBAL.NET31_Thu, 19 Apr 2007 22:07:21 -0700642_iso-8859-1 Does anyone have much experience with setting themselves up as a charter
school? In California that's one approach to homeschooling legally. It
offers advantages, such as providing money and access to certain resources.
When i last looked into it, the homeschool legal defense fund (?) rejected
it as (among other things) a doorway to government intrusion. Well, I'm not
yet sure how idealistic I am about homeschooling - still working it out.
But I know I can't afford private schools this coming year, and that I'm not
sending my child(ren) to public school. So it's tempting to take the
"handouts". [...]45_19Apr200722:07:21-0700Sharonajb@SBCGLOBAL.NET
5477 245 48_Re: was Creation, now religion in public schools14_Malkie Swidler18_malkie18@GMAIL.COM31_Fri, 20 Apr 2007 12:45:11 +0300343_ISO-8859-1 The concept that there exist objective morals that hold for all societies is
termed "natural law". I have come across many religious Jews who do not
believe in natural law, and believe it somehow contradicts or threatens
Torah law, but I think it's usually because they don't understand one or the
other-- or both. [...]40_20Apr200712:45:11+0300malkie18@GMAIL.COM
5723 183 19_Re: charter schools5_Kelli33_Natural_Irish_Terrier@COMCAST.NET31_Fri, 20 Apr 2007 09:25:22 -0400291_iso-8859-1 When I was in California I filed the R4, is that what you mean? The R4 is different that a charter school though. The R4 means you are a private school. I think it is pretty easy. IF you Google it you should find it. Google R4- California or something and it should come up. [...]55_20Apr200709:25:22-0400Natural_Irish_Terrier@COMCAST.NET
5907 44 19_Re: charter schools10_Zara Haimo14_zara@HAIMO.NET31_Fri, 20 Apr 2007 12:22:51 -0700506_iso-8859-1 Setting up a charter school is a long, expensive, difficult process and
means that you are going to offer schooling to a large number of students
because you are effectively opening a public school. Most people in
California homeschool one of 2 ways, Either they open a tiny private school
in their home which only requires filing a very brief form with the state
once a year, or they enroll their kids in a charter school that offers an
independent study program option. [...]36_20Apr200712:22:51-0700zara@HAIMO.NET
5952 147 16_Re: evolution...0_21_YiddisheMameh@AOL.COM29_Fri, 20 Apr 2007 15:14:14 EDT658_UTF-8 In a message dated 4/18/2007 10:49:36 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
michelletamar@HOTMAIL.COM writes:
Avivah,
I so agree with you. This country would be so much better off if kids in
public schools were taught Xtian values instead of Gd hating, secular
humanism (the state religion it seems). My liberal Jewish doctor recently
told me about the horror of kids handing out New Testaments on public school
grounds. She was flummoxed when I said I thought that was a great idea.
What would she prefer...the Koran? chas v'shalom. There's a great book,
"Xtian Revival for Israel's Survival" written by a religious Jew. [...]41_20Apr200715:14:14EDTYiddisheMameh@AOL.COM
6100 129 42_Re: what is really taught in public school0_17_RENALEVIN@AOL.COM29_Fri, 20 Apr 2007 07:54:40 EDT442_US-ASCII Shayna: I agree with you in theory, the oilam is goilam, most people do not
think.
Still, that does not mean that it does not warrant looking at the deep
philosophical underpinnings of specific viewpoints and the logical outcomes if these
beliefs/viewpoints are taught. ESPECIALLY if they are not done in a
thoughtful and complete way, turning it all around like a Rubik's cube to see
unintended consequences. [...]37_20Apr200707:54:40EDTRENALEVIN@AOL.COM
6230 126 14_Re: evolution?0_17_RENALEVIN@AOL.COM29_Fri, 20 Apr 2007 07:46:19 EDT606_US-ASCII In a message dated 4/20/07 2:00:53 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
LISTSERV@SHAMASH.ORG writes:
> If you believe in evolution without HaShem then everything you say is
> correct. But because HaShem is in control and running the show then Creation
> via evolution is no different than Creation "ex nihilo". Otherwise you would
> have to say that once we came from "nothing" and are worth nothing and
> therefore coming from animals would be better than from nothing. The idea is
> that HaShem can do it however He thinks is best. Even if HaShem evolved us
> from animals [...]37_20Apr200707:46:19EDTRENALEVIN@AOL.COM
6357 113 14_Re: evolution?15_Michelle Miller25_michelletamar@HOTMAIL.COM31_Thu, 19 Apr 2007 07:18:15 -0700708_- Rena,
Thank you. You explained it much more eloquently than I did:)
michelle
>From: RENALEVIN@AOL.COM
>Reply-To: Torah-Centered Homeschooling
>To: TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG
>Subject: Re: [TORCH-D] evolution?
>Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 07:14:28 EDT
>
>
>First, Evelyn, thanks for giving me yet another spin on the boy in Barnes
>and
>Noble, it is possible that there are legitimate reasons for his choice of
>reading material.....I was just shocked and therefore could not think of
>any at
>the time!
>
>as far as consequences of thinking that man is descended from monkeys, what
>I
>think Michelle is saying is that if you [...]47_19Apr200707:18:15-0700michelletamar@HOTMAIL.COM
6471 34 48_Re: was Creation, now religion in public schools28_Jamie Rosenblum Lichtenstein25_jrosenbl@HSPH.HARVARD.EDU31_Thu, 19 Apr 2007 06:03:32 -0400496_US-ASCII Larry,
The fact is that most Jews in this country do have their children in public schools. Our concern for klal yisrael should motivate us to take an interest in the public schools our tax money is supporting.
Jamie
>>> Larry Beck 04/18/07 8:01 PM >>>
Besides, Jews should not have their children in Government
Schools, they should either teach them themselves or put them in Jewish
schools, so it shouldn't be a problem for us. [...]47_19Apr200706:03:32-0400jrosenbl@HSPH.HARVARD.EDU
6506 95 12_Re: Creation10_Sarah Kopp17_svkopp@012.NET.IL31_Thu, 19 Apr 2007 08:08:00 +0200628_ISO-8859-1 I'm not interested in debating evolution vs creation. I don't have a
problem with reconciling Torah and sciences, in fact I read B'Or HaTorah
and enjoy it very much. I like when great scientific minds enhance Torah
teachings with their knowledge and vice versa.
The problem is that most staunch evolutionists deny creation, and that
is what my mother, who is a staunch atheist does. That's how the topic
came up with my son. He doesn't understand how atheists can replace
Torah with science and believe in creation without G-d as a catalyst and
evolution as the creative force behind [...]39_19Apr200708:08:00+0200svkopp@012.NET.IL
6602 101 29_Re: homeschooling superiority14_Sigal Gottlieb23_sigalgottlieb@YAHOO.COM31_Mon, 16 Apr 2007 15:45:26 -0700706_ascii Thank you, Jennifer. Wise words indeed.
----- Original Message ----
From: Jennifer Moran
To: TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG
Sent: Monday, April 16, 2007 5:16:06 PM
Subject: Re: [TORCH-D] homeschooling superiority
Hello Parents,
I know this is not the "evolution discussion list", but
since all the comments have thusfar been "of course we don't
hold by that", I thought I would point out that many
prominent rebbeim, from Rav Soloveitchik to Rav Kook, had no
theological problem with evolution, provided we understand
it as a way in which HaShem created and continues to create
and change the world, and provided we acknowledge the [...]45_16Apr200715:45:26-0700sigalgottlieb@YAHOO.COM
6704 42 15_Re: Quick intro10_Sarah Kopp17_svkopp@012.NET.IL31_Mon, 16 Apr 2007 09:09:57 +0200526_ISO-8859-1 CB wrote:
> Hello everyone, I'm Chava and I live in Tzfas. I've
> lived here for about a year and a half. I'm really
> interested in homeschooling, and I like what I've read
> about the Montessori Method, and I'd like to learn
> more about that. We're a religious family, and my one
> concern with homeschooling is learning Torah at home,
> although that probably won't be too much of an issue
> until my children are older (my son is 8.5 months
> right now).
>
>
Hi Chava, [...]39_16Apr200709:09:57+0200svkopp@012.NET.IL
6747 59 23_ending evolution thread13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Fri, 20 Apr 2007 15:32:58 -0700385_iso-8859-1 Hi, everyone -
Many messages on this topic have been posted, and at this point I think that we've discussed evolution to the benefit and stimulation of us all. Further discussion is going a bit far afield. For those who would like to continue the discussion offline, please contact those whose posts you would like to comment on or get further elucidation from. [...]44_20Apr200715:32:58-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM
6807 85 40_teenagers - The Case Against Adolescence13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Wed, 25 Apr 2007 14:54:29 -0700380_iso-8859-1 Below is a thought provoking article that I thought was especially relevant for homeschooling families. Though I don't agree with all of his conclusions, I do feel passionately about the importance of treating 'teenagers' (not a term we use in our house - we prefer young adult) as capable and competent and actively giving them opportunities to grow into adults. [...]44_25Apr200714:54:29-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM
6893 42 44_Re: teenagers - The Case Against Adolescence14_Jennifer Moran20_jrmoran@UCHICAGO.EDU31_Wed, 25 Apr 2007 18:45:23 -0500622_us-ascii I agree that teens have many superficial trappings of
adulthood but little real responsibility, and when they are
given real responsibilities, the difference it makes in
character is often remarkable. I've known young people who
were on the local volunteer ambulance corps, for instance.
That really does something for a developing Neshama -- to be
able to make a real contribution to one's community, to even
be given life-and-death levels of responsibility. When else
do we show teens that level of trust? Not often, and it
shows. They often meet our (low) expectations of them. [...]42_25Apr200718:45:23-0500jrmoran@UCHICAGO.EDU
6936 74 32_Re: teenagers - The Case Against13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Wed, 25 Apr 2007 19:56:07 -0700551_iso-8859-1 >>Re: the article. There's a lot to argue with about the
specific social agenda the author proposes.<<
Agreed!
>> I wonder if
there are concrete ways we can make some of these changes
for the young people in our own lives, without all of the
proficiency tests and other bureaucratic baggage the author
mentions? What are some of the concrete ways that list
members have given their "young adults" substantive control
over their lives and an incentive to live up to higher
expectations for them?<< [...]44_25Apr200719:56:07-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM
7011 153 21_Re: teens (long post)0_17_RENALEVIN@AOL.COM29_Thu, 26 Apr 2007 07:31:56 EDT409_US-ASCII Avivah, this hits the nail on the head, though I admit I have not yet read
the link to the full article, don't know about the social agenda he is pushing.
still, just a couple of days ago, I was talking with someone who was
determined to play the poor pitiful me game because she has children of all ages,
spanning from tots to teens and it is SO hard. ESPECIALLY her teenagers. [...]37_26Apr200707:31:56EDTRENALEVIN@AOL.COM
7165 91 44_Re: teenagers - The Case Against Adolescence10_Sarah Kopp17_svkopp@012.NET.IL31_Thu, 26 Apr 2007 08:46:40 +0200621_ISO-8859-1 Jennifer Moran wrote:
> What are some of the concrete ways that list
> members have given their "young adults" substantive control
> over their lives and an incentive to live up to higher
> expectations for them?
>
>
>
Mostly we've tried to let the kids do whatever big new projects they
wanted to do, and if we were concerned about their ability to understand
and commit to the responsibility involved, we made contracts with them.
This worked when they bought donkeys and horses, and went through a
motorcycle (the little vespa type) phase. For instance when one [...]39_26Apr200708:46:40+0200svkopp@012.NET.IL
7257 51 44_Re: teenagers - The Case Against Adolescence10_Sarah Kopp17_svkopp@012.NET.IL31_Thu, 26 Apr 2007 08:20:48 +0200576_ISO-8859-1 Avivah Werner wrote:
> Below is a thought provoking article that I thought was especially
> relevant for homeschooling families. Though I don't agree with all of
> his conclusions, I do feel passionately about the importance of
> treating 'teenagers' (not a term we use in our house - we prefer young
> adult) as capable and competent and actively giving them opportunities
> to grow into adults.
>
> I pasted the first part of the article, the link for the entire thing
> is at the end.
>
> Avivah - whose 13 yo is busy right [...]39_26Apr200708:20:48+0200svkopp@012.NET.IL
7309 44 44_Re: teenagers - The Case Against Adolescence17_Rachel Turniansky28_rachelturniansky@HOTMAIL.COM31_Thu, 26 Apr 2007 11:22:03 -0400601_- Trashing Teens
>We are throwing away 20 million young people, psychologist Robert
>>Epstein argues in a provocative book, "The Case Against Adolescence."
>>Teens are far more competent than we assume, and most of their problems
>>stem from restrictions placed on them.
>>By:Hara Estroff Marano
>I couldn't agree more. Teenagers are young adults who have all the
>motivation and ability to work their way into adulthood, and many modern
>societies are not only building tremendous resentment in their young adult
>population but squandering a valuable human resource. [...]50_26Apr200711:22:03-0400rachelturniansky@HOTMAIL.COM
7354 70 21_Re: teens (long post)13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Thu, 26 Apr 2007 08:52:36 -0700386_iso-8859-1 >>still, just a couple of days ago, I was talking with someone who was determined to play the poor pitiful me game because she has children of all ages, spanning from tots to teens and it is SO hard. ESPECIALLY her teenagers. ......She was really DOWN on her teens, it was breathtaking. and we are talking about a put together mom and quality kids. I was taken aback.<< [...]44_26Apr200708:52:36-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM
7425 55 21_Re: teens (long post)10_Sarah Kopp17_svkopp@012.NET.IL31_Thu, 26 Apr 2007 17:41:11 +0200546_ISO-8859-1 RENALEVIN@AOL.COM wrote:
> Avivah, this hits the nail on the head, though I admit I have not yet
> read the link to the full article, don't know about the social agenda
> he is pushing.
>
> still, just a couple of days ago, I was talking with someone who was
> determined to play the poor pitiful me game because she has children
> of all ages, spanning from tots to teens and it is SO hard. ESPECIALLY
> her teenagers.
>
> and I have found just the opposite, despite the fact that teens is the
> [...]39_26Apr200717:41:11+0200svkopp@012.NET.IL
7481 69 44_Re: teenagers - The Case Against Adolescence13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Thu, 26 Apr 2007 15:11:39 -0700498_iso-8859-1 >>Not only that, but in my professional life I often encournter (not so young)
adults that act like they are still teenagers. They are not able to make a
decision or take responsibility for themselves. I've taught seminary girls,
some of whom are married already, who think they are still in the sixth
grade when it comes to being responsible. I've also worked with men in their
twenties who can't fill out a simple form without asking their father (or
mother).<< [...]44_26Apr200715:11:39-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM
7551 97 44_Re: teenagers - The Case Against Adolescence11_Rick Dinitz16_dinitz@TIBCO.COM31_Thu, 26 Apr 2007 15:50:49 -0700474_us-ascii Avivah wrote:
Generally, this is a big reason that I don't support very young people
getting married. (And my kids say, "But you did it!" - to which I say,
"I wasn't a typical 18 yo and most people aren't successful doing what I
did.") Young people today are so immature (generally speaking) that
it's frightening for me to think of many of them getting married - many
don't have the emotional or physical tools to be successful in marriage. [...]38_26Apr200715:50:49-0700dinitz@TIBCO.COM
7649 83 8_marriage13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Thu, 26 Apr 2007 16:43:06 -0700406_iso-8859-1 >>home-schooled or
out-schooled<<
This was an interesting term, Rick - is it like outsourcing (but for kids) ? :) If so, it's pretty accurate a term!
Seriously, I'm far from an expert on marriage matters, and it's one of those things that I've learned a huge amount by being married (BH happily), so I would love to hear other voices on this issue - it's a great question. [...]44_26Apr200716:43:06-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM
7733 61 12_Re: marriage14_Jennifer Moran20_jrmoran@UCHICAGO.EDU31_Thu, 26 Apr 2007 19:37:57 -0500505_us-ascii Great list, Avivah.
I would like to add a couple questions that a couple
contemplating marriage should ask themselves. Although
they're about the relationship, I bet you could gauge a
person's readiness for marriage by how they reacted to these
questions...
1. Can you be happy with the person as s/he is, or is there
something fundamental about them that you feel must change
for you to be happy? (What you see is what you get, at least
99% of the time!) [...]42_26Apr200719:37:57-0500jrmoran@UCHICAGO.EDU
7795 77 13_Re: teenagers0_17_RENALEVIN@AOL.COM29_Fri, 27 Apr 2007 08:06:48 EDT490_US-ASCII In a message dated 4/27/07 2:01:37 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
LISTSERV@SHAMASH.ORG writes:
> I was talking a year ago with a group of homeschooling moms about
> adolescence, and when they realized I had a girl and boy hitting puberty at the same
> time, they were all telling me how incredibly sorry they were for me. I told
> them I thought it was great, and they told me to just wait, I'll see soon
> what they're talking about. I'm still waiting.
> [...]37_27Apr200708:06:48EDTRENALEVIN@AOL.COM
7873 89 18_Re: teens (again!)0_17_RENALEVIN@AOL.COM29_Fri, 27 Apr 2007 08:13:49 EDT423_US-ASCII In a message dated 4/27/07 2:01:37 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
LISTSERV@SHAMASH.ORG writes:
> (This is one reason I found it very amusing when a young kollel man told me
> that my son wasn't learning the life skills he would have gotten in yeshiva
> and therefore needed to supplement - I was so floored that someone could say
> that seriously that I momentarily lost my ability to respond.) [...]37_27Apr200708:13:49EDTRENALEVIN@AOL.COM
7963 67 17_jewish curriculum13_Sharon Brooks23_Sharonajb@SBCGLOBAL.NET31_Fri, 27 Apr 2007 10:26:57 -0700323_iso-8859-1 I've just begun to seek materials for Limmudei Kodesh for my 5 1/2 yo. I've heard about Tal Am and Tal Sela, and I'm looking into them. Alternatively, I've thought about just putting something together myself with a wide variety of resources. What have you all enjoyed using?
thanks for you thoughts [...]45_27Apr200710:26:57-0700Sharonajb@SBCGLOBAL.NET
8031 152 21_Re: jewish curriculum15_Bara Loewenthal26_bara@BTGENTERPRISESINC.COM31_Fri, 27 Apr 2007 16:07:55 -0600544_iso-8859-1 Hi Sharon,
I have been using Tal Am and Tal Selah with my 6 and 8 year olds. Unless
there is something new it is a hebrew language program and not a Limudei
Kodesh one. We loved the Tal Am the Tal Selah is a big jump in grammar and
vocabulary and it does look more old fashioned (think Mikraah Sheli and
Yesodot Halashon). There is and issue with purchasing the program. I was
able to buy it from a teacher in a Day school which uses it. I put my
Limudei Kodesh together myself, We do Sefer Mitzvot, Pirkey [...]48_27Apr200716:07:55-0600bara@BTGENTERPRISESINC.COM
8184 46 21_Re: jewish curriculum0_19_BurnesFamily@CS.COM29_Fri, 27 Apr 2007 18:43:53 EDT570_US-ASCII Check out e-chinuch.org. They have tons of worksheets free to download. I
especially like their K'siva workbook.
- Leah
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8231 94 21_Re: jewish curriculum14_Evelyn Krieger18_ek2000@COMCAST.NET31_Sat, 28 Apr 2007 21:35:49 -0400379_iso-8859-1 Hi Sharon,
I like Tal Am, too, but the whole program consumes a lot of time. Would you please share your schedule or time commitments for the subjects you mentioned. I found it interesting that you do Pirkei Avot daily. We learn this on shabbos after Pesach through the summer. How do you teach tefillla and how much do your children say?
Thanks,
Evelyn [...]40_28Apr200721:35:49-0400ek2000@COMCAST.NET
8326 122 21_Re: jewish curriculum14_Gaby Neuburger17_ylb@NEUBURGER.ORG31_Fri, 27 Apr 2007 17:42:19 -0700606_ISO-8859-1 Could we extend the age range for this question? I decided to pull my
daughter out of school now, so I'm starting homeschooling again next week.
My oldest daughter is finishing 2nd grade and my younger one will be
starting Kindergarten in September (or whenever we decide to start :-)).
I can provide a couple of recommendations - I've been very pleased with two
sources - Torah U'Mesorah and www.e-chinuch.org - but there are definitely
areas which are lacking. Is there a curriculum out there to know roughly
what to teach at which age level? I know that I don't [...]39_27Apr200717:42:19-0700ylb@NEUBURGER.ORG
8449 64 21_Re: jewish curriculum14_Evelyn Krieger18_ek2000@COMCAST.NET31_Sun, 29 Apr 2007 17:21:08 -0400513_iso-8859-1 Try Torah Tots website for parasha learning for kids.
Also, chabad.org has a hilarious parash comedy show (puppets) with the same characters each week. My teens love it as well.
Evelyn
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by
Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org,
a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and
an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...]40_29Apr200717:21:08-0400ek2000@COMCAST.NET
8514 210 21_Re: jewish curriculum13_Sharon Brooks23_Sharonajb@SBCGLOBAL.NET31_Sun, 29 Apr 2007 21:33:14 -0700446_iso-8859-1 Hi Evelyn,
We were told to keep teaching him davening after he knew his food brachos - very early on. He davens morning brachos, a mini-psukei, and partial shema at this point. A young child's siddur, basically, by rote. I'd like to add, but we were facing a lot of resistance for awhile and it made the space for friction which I didn't want to be part of his davening kavana. He does this all or mostly before breakfast. [...]45_29Apr200721:33:14-0700Sharonajb@SBCGLOBAL.NET