1 SHAMASH.ORG /usr/www/wwwhc/listserv/archives/torch-d November 2006 2 82 27_Re: Kindergarden Curriculum14_Rebecca Harper22_hudabecca@RAINMALL.COM31_Tue, 31 Oct 2006 20:24:35 -0700503_utf-8 Hi Rena,

I think you should first look at how your daughter is. My oldest (not quite
6 and half way through a secular first grade as of next week,) NEEDED to
start kindergarten last year. My second child WANTS to do school - and he's
in preschool ( just under 5 yrs) - it takes us about 40 minutes to do the
secular with him, and another 10ish minutes for any judaic I give him (other
than davening and parsha reading). That's all he needs, and can manage
right now. [...]44_31Oct200620:24:35-0700hudabecca@RAINMALL.COM 85 307 18_Re: Making it work14_Laya B Jackson17_tolife18@JUNO.COM30_Wed, 1 Nov 2006 06:00:37 +0200557_us-ascii I have to jump in here...

I have heard many, many stories of reading just clicking in with kids.
But from my experience, it doesn't click in for all kids. I have two
kids with dyslexia and it just didn't seem to work that way. Years ago
when my very bright son was not progressing very naturally, I went to a
homeschool supply store. The very experienced woman who ran the store
heard my story, she walked over to the explode the code books and said,
"a page a day". She had two kids that learned very well easily and [...]38_1Nov200606:00:37+0200tolife18@JUNO.COM 393 131 27_Re: Kindergarden Curriculum14_Laya B Jackson17_tolife18@JUNO.COM30_Wed, 1 Nov 2006 06:03:53 +0200342_us-ascii I loved the "Five in a Row" series for young kids. It's one book with a
list of picture books. You read one picture book five days in a row and
focus on different aspects of it. Science, art, etc. the suggestions
are all there and there is the potential for a lot or a little, what ever
you and your child are into. [...]38_1Nov200606:03:53+0200tolife18@JUNO.COM 525 70 27_Re: Kindergarten Curriculum23_Leat and Albert Silvera22_lasilvera1@HOTMAIL.COM31_Tue, 31 Oct 2006 21:48:43 -0800582_- Hi Rena,
The beauty of Home schooling is being able to individualize and cater
everything you do to fit her needs, her passions, her strengths. By
definition any curriculum has to be geared towards many different interests
and levels. That's not what you want. The greatest gift you can give her
right now is filling her world with the the things that fascinate and excite
HER! My suggestion would be to go to the library often and with a suitcase.
Fill it up with all sorts of books and then pay attention. Some stories will
dazzle her - expand upon [...]44_31Oct200621:48:43-0800lasilvera1@HOTMAIL.COM 596 49 18_Re: Making it work10_Sarah Kopp17_svkopp@012.NET.IL30_Wed, 1 Nov 2006 09:31:31 +0200557_ISO-8859-1 Malkie Swidler wrote:
> I am still a little bit shocked that time and Lego catalog were what
> he needed to learn to read, not one-on-one Alphaphonics time with me.
>
We live in Israel and speak English at home. I want my kids to be
fluent, and I also tried teaching them to read English. The first 3 kids
got pretty formal "lessons" with me after school, which they didn't much
like, but they got a foundation for reading and as they got older and
their own needs to read English surfaced 2 of them learned to read. [...]38_1Nov200609:31:31+0200svkopp@012.NET.IL 646 115 17_Shalom from Tsfat10_Sarah Kopp17_svkopp@012.NET.IL30_Wed, 1 Nov 2006 11:01:57 +0200566_ISO-8859-1 HI,

It was suggested I introduce myself - though I already posted here's a
bit about us:
Shalom,

We live in Tsfat, Israel (for the last 13 years), are
orthodox (Chabad) and have 8 children: boy 18 yrs,
twin boys 16, boy 11, girl, 9, boy 7, boy 4, girl 2.
The kids all seem to enjoy school very much when they
are young, but around the age of 10-11, if they don't
have an excellent teacher, they lose interest in
"being with the program." By the age of 12 they've had
it. We switched them all to really haredi [...]38_1Nov200611:01:57+0200svkopp@012.NET.IL 762 249 16_Re: Kindergarten0_17_RENALEVIN@AOL.COM28_Wed, 1 Nov 2006 09:09:09 EST562_US-ASCII We are also "doing kindergarten" this year, also having a child who seems to
have grown up overnight!

As far as curriculum, we are also inventing/reinventing the wheel. I will
definitely echo positives for teach your child to read in 100 easy lessons. I
used this when my now 10 y.o. twins were 5/6 years old, we did it in a very light
kind of way, not at all consistently, dropping it for weeks at a
time....about 1/2 way through the book, I found my almost 7 y.o. son reading pg 44 of
Harry Potter! I asked him, what are [...]36_1Nov200609:09:09ESTRENALEVIN@AOL.COM 1012 21 28_another high school question17_Rachel Turniansky28_rachelturniansky@HOTMAIL.COM30_Wed, 1 Nov 2006 10:25:18 -05000_49_1Nov200610:25:18-0500rachelturniansky@HOTMAIL.COM 1034 94 27_Re: Kindergarten Curriculum14_hadas laureano20_hadasl@SBCGLOBAL.NET30_Wed, 1 Nov 2006 12:27:29 -0800558_iso-8859-1 Dear Leat....I am interested to hear the speaker in your home....please tell
me more info......I live in los angeles. Ps....I have a wonderful speaker in
my home now giving a Parsha shiur ....Sara Broudaley.....if anyone is
interested...my daughter who is 9 has been staying up and also getting a lot
from it. Hadas
----- Original Message -----
From: "Leat and Albert Silvera"
To:
Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2006 9:48 PM
Subject: Re: [TORCH-D] Kindergarten Curriculum [...]41_1Nov200612:27:29-0800hadasl@SBCGLOBAL.NET 1129 133 27_Re: Kindergarden Curriculum13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM30_Wed, 1 Nov 2006 20:56:06 -0800456_iso-8859-1 It's been interesting to read all of the responses to this question. I don't favor using a curriculum at this age at all, but I really think what matters is what style of learning you are comfortable with. I feel claustrophobic when I see schedules of what/when kids are supposed to learn things; it just doesn't fit me. What I do fits my personality and my kids' needs, so it's successful for us. You have to find what works well for you. [...]43_1Nov200620:56:06-0800avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 1263 103 24_Re: hgih school question0_17_RENALEVIN@AOL.COM28_Thu, 2 Nov 2006 08:43:38 EST572_US-ASCII Rachel:
as far as I know, you cannot "test out" of any high school classes. As I see
it, you have a couple of choices.

"homeschool" him through TLCN where he can get credit for stuff that he has
done, create "courses", retroactively document his work....don't know how they
will take to the fact that he is actually in school, I guess that you can say
you are homeschooling him, and then use some of the stuff that he is doing in
school as "formal" coursework. TLCN does give a diploma, they have been around
a while (at least 20 [...]36_2Nov200608:43:38ESTRENALEVIN@AOL.COM 1367 98 47_Re: chinuch for older boys/yeshiva high schools0_17_RENALEVIN@AOL.COM28_Thu, 2 Nov 2006 08:51:30 EST352_US-ASCII Sorah:

I read your post and was amazed at how you so articulately and eloquently hit
the nail on the head. All the problems with chinuch for older boys in one
succinct post! My understanding is that this is a big problem in the States, an
even bigger problem in Israel because of the differences in the school
systems. [...]36_2Nov200608:51:30ESTRENALEVIN@AOL.COM 1466 56 27_Re: Kindergarden Curriculum14_Jennifer Moran20_jrmoran@UCHICAGO.EDU30_Thu, 2 Nov 2006 11:40:25 -0600581_us-ascii I think it's important to realize that the main purpose of a
curriculum (for younger children, at least) is to reassure the
parent. That's not a bad thing per se, and it may be a very
good thing in some circumstances. We all need reassurance in
different areas, and we're likely to look for more structure
and more support in areas where we feel shaky and uncertain.
For instance, I would never buy a science curriculum, because
I have a science background and feel comfortable that I can
give my son what he needs in this area. In Hebrew and [...]41_2Nov200611:40:25-0600jrmoran@UCHICAGO.EDU 1523 109 32_Re: another high school question9_beth mali18_malikids@GMAIL.COM30_Thu, 2 Nov 2006 07:15:33 -0800534_ISO-8859-1 Rachel:
It's been around 30 years ago, so I don't know if it is still available
today, but my brother took what was called the 'Proficiency' test in
California. He was 15 at the time and too young to take the GED. The
Proficiency test was his ticket out of school. ( I remember when he took the
test and I asked him how it went and he said he was so bummed--not about
taking the test, but the fact that it was so easy he couldn't believe he
had wasted his time studying for it.) You might want to [...]39_2Nov200607:15:33-0800malikids@GMAIL.COM 1633 120 23_Re: more on high school0_17_RENALEVIN@AOL.COM28_Fri, 3 Nov 2006 09:44:23 EST608_US-ASCII Rachel:
Do some research, you need to know the laws in Maryland regarding high school
diplomas. My understanding is that in Maryland, the STATE does not issue
diplomas, the individual schools do. So the yeshiva high school where your son
attends may not accept "proficiency" tests or correspondence classes in order to
issue a diploma. I know, it sounds weird, the state dictates the amount of
credits needed to graduate, and how many credits in each subject area, but they
do not issue the diploma. That is why we went with the TCLN, THEY were a
school, so they issued [...]36_3Nov200609:44:23ESTRENALEVIN@AOL.COM 1754 55 33_correction to more on high school0_17_RENALEVIN@AOL.COM28_Sun, 5 Nov 2006 10:46:04 EST627_US-ASCII In a message dated 11/4/06 2:00:27 AM Eastern Standard Time,
LISTSERV@SHAMASH.ORG writes:

> homeschooltohighschool@yahoogroups.com

the correct info for subbing is: homeschool2highschool@yahoogroups.com

Rena in Baltimore

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To unsubscribe email: TORCH-D-unsubscribe-request@SHAMASH.ORG36_5Nov200610:46:04ESTRENALEVIN@AOL.COM 1810 61 29_OOPPS, yet another correction0_17_RENALEVIN@AOL.COM28_Sun, 5 Nov 2006 10:47:07 EST659_US-ASCII In a message dated 11/4/06 2:00:27 AM Eastern Standard Time,
LISTSERV@SHAMASH.ORG writes:

> homeschooltohighschool@yahoogroups.com

I am so tired! Sorry, this time I got it right:
homeschool2college@yahoogroups.com

After all isn't that what we were talking about? blush, back to lurkdom.

Rena in Baltimore

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The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by
Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org,
a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and
an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...]36_5Nov200610:47:07ESTRENALEVIN@AOL.COM 1872 55 9_Math help14_Malkie Swidler18_malkie18@GMAIL.COM30_Sun, 5 Nov 2006 19:05:36 +0200605_ISO-8859-1 Here's the situation.

I need to get two children (ages 9 and 11) who are currently at around a
fifth grade math level through all the rest of elementary school math
quickly and painlessly. Both are very math bright and seriously bored with
arithmetic. One is homeschooled, one is schooled (she, her mother and
teacher all agree that it is in her best interests to accelerate). I would
prefer to do this without workbooks, because both children have a tendency
to look at a problem, say "oh", and extrapolate the next few lessons from
it. These are not kids who [...]39_5Nov200619:05:36+0200malkie18@GMAIL.COM 1928 33 13_Re: Math help10_Sarah Kopp17_svkopp@012.NET.IL30_Mon, 6 Nov 2006 08:45:41 +0200725_ISO-8859-1 Here are 2 pages that have links to lots of good free or cheap online
math pages and interactive games, all levels (the second link has more
advanced and unusual stuff)
http://www.homeschoolmath.net/math_interactive_links.php

http://cte.jhu.edu/techacademy/web/2000/heal/mathsites.htm

and this is the site I've used most so far with my kids (it describes
itself as help for kids who hate math, but I find it's a good no-frills
approach to math that suits my kids who like math very well. There's no
time wasting convoluted approaches, she just presents the concepts in
really pared down straight-forward terms that are easy to understand) :
http://www.coolmath.com, also [...]38_6Nov200608:45:41+0200svkopp@012.NET.IL 1962 66 13_Re: Math help18_Benjamin H Dickman19_bdickman@LUCENT.COM30_Mon, 6 Nov 2006 04:25:59 -0500367_us-ascii With my then 10y.o. daughter, we sat together and I had her read out loud
from Singapore's presentation of a topic, then I had her do only a few
practice examples to make sure she 'got it'. I still found it important
to go back a few days later and do another practice example to help
her retain the 'old' concept as she went to newer ones. [...]40_6Nov200604:25:59-0500bdickman@LUCENT.COM 2029 96 13_Re: Math help10_Louise Fox20_fox.louise@GMAIL.COM30_Mon, 6 Nov 2006 13:05:19 +0200330_ISO-8859-1 One idea is to look at the website run by Cambridge University.
www.*nrich*.maths.org/
Please note that maths is spelled the English way, or you won't find the
site :-)

There's lots to choose from there, and it's all in the form of games and
puzzles. Some of it is a lot harder than it looks... [...]41_6Nov200613:05:19+0200fox.louise@GMAIL.COM 2126 83 13_Re: Math help14_hadas laureano20_hadasl@SBCGLOBAL.NET30_Mon, 6 Nov 2006 09:00:40 -0800615_iso-8859-1 what is Singapore....I have a ten year girl and she really needs a good
math program that she would enjoy doing....thank you Hadas
----- Original Message -----
From: "Benjamin H Dickman"
To:
Sent: Monday, November 06, 2006 1:25 AM
Subject: Re: [TORCH-D] Math help

> With my then 10y.o. daughter, we sat together and I had her read out loud
> from Singapore's presentation of a topic, then I had her do only a few
> practice examples to make sure she 'got it'. I still found it important
> to go back a few days later and [...]41_6Nov200609:00:40-0800hadasl@SBCGLOBAL.NET 2210 39 13_Re: Math help8_cillakat18_cillakat@GMAIL.COM30_Mon, 6 Nov 2006 13:09:20 -0500453_ISO-8859-1 Enough good can't be said about Rightstartmath.com It's been
amazing for us. The geometry program starts in fifth grade I
believe. They're working currently on the middle school program.
Until it's available, they recommend http://www.challengemath.com/

I am very good at math, even so, working with Rightstart has improved
and deepened my understanding of math and dramatically enhanced my
speed with mental math. [...]39_6Nov200613:09:20-0500cillakat@GMAIL.COM 2250 132 13_Re: math help0_17_RENALEVIN@AOL.COM28_Mon, 6 Nov 2006 13:45:00 EST430_US-ASCII Malkie:

I would have to refresh my memory about what is exactly included in the
scope/sequence for math between 5, 6, and 7 grade (i believe 7 grade is called
"pre-algrebra" and 8th grade is algebra). Rebecca Rupp's book, what they need to
know when, may be very helpful in both giving you the scope/sequence of what
they need to know AND she also makes recommendations for methodology/materials. [...]36_6Nov200613:45:00ESTRENALEVIN@AOL.COM 2383 352 13_Re: math help6_suelap20_suelap@EARTHLINK.NET30_Mon, 6 Nov 2006 11:59:33 -0800709_us-ascii I think what Rena is thinking of is Hands-On-Equations. My daughter really
enjoyed doing it.

Susan

_____

From: Torah-Centered Homeschooling [mailto:TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG] On Behalf Of
RENALEVIN@AOL.COM
Sent: Monday, November 06, 2006 10:45 AM
To: TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG
Subject: Re: [TORCH-D] math help

Malkie:

I would have to refresh my memory about what is exactly included in the
scope/sequence for math between 5, 6, and 7 grade (i believe 7 grade is
called "pre-algrebra" and 8th grade is algebra). Rebecca Rupp's book, what
they need to know when, may be very helpful in both giving you the
scope/sequence of what they need to know [...]41_6Nov200611:59:33-0800suelap@EARTHLINK.NET 2736 27 20_Re: Math help-abacus10_Sarah Kopp17_svkopp@012.NET.IL30_Tue, 7 Nov 2006 09:11:35 +0200402_ISO-8859-1 Not algebra, but I found a very good online abacus at
http://nlvm.usu.edu/en/nav/grade_g_2.html. Big beads and a reset button.
I'm thinking of helping the kids make one as a project, then we can
learn to use it. The abacus teaches place values and enables easy and
speedy arithmetic, and for "visual" people an abacus in the head is the
best way to do mental arithmetic. [...]38_7Nov200609:11:35+0200svkopp@012.NET.IL 2764 44 13_Re: math help0_17_RENALEVIN@AOL.COM28_Tue, 7 Nov 2006 09:11:58 EST475_US-ASCII yes, it is Hands-on algebra by Borenson, used to be called something else,
but I checked the web site, it is the same product.

Rena in Baltimore

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The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by
Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org,
a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and
an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...]36_7Nov200609:11:58ESTRENALEVIN@AOL.COM 2809 73 13_Re: math help14_Malkie Swidler18_malkie18@GMAIL.COM30_Tue, 7 Nov 2006 22:55:53 +0200676_ISO-8859-1 Hands on algebra looks good, and it's priced right. Is the $80 video really
necessary to use the tool, or do the books included with the game explain
what to do?

Malkie

On 11/7/06, RENALEVIN@aol.com wrote:
>
> yes, it is Hands-on algebra by Borenson, used to be called something else,
> but I checked the web site, it is the same product.
>
> Rena in Baltimore
> ------------------------------
>
> The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network,
> a service of Hebrew College , which offers
> online courses and an online MA [...]39_7Nov200622:55:53+0200malkie18@GMAIL.COM 2883 69 16_Teaching to read14_Mandy Oeschger23_sailorswife@KNOLOGY.NET30_Tue, 7 Nov 2006 14:48:04 -0600588_iso-8859-1 I've been sitting on the book Teach Your Child to Read in 100 Easy Lessons. Do you have thoughts to share on this one?

Thanks, Mandy

"With His pinion He will cover you, and beneath His wings you will be protected; His truth is shield and armor." Psalms 91:4

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The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by
Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org,
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an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/44_7Nov200614:48:04-0600sailorswife@KNOLOGY.NET 2953 322 13_Re: math help6_suelap20_suelap@EARTHLINK.NET30_Tue, 7 Nov 2006 15:10:39 -0800569_us-ascii Malkie,

I don't know if they've changed the product since I used it, but there was
no video then and we did just fine with the books.

Susan

_____

From: Torah-Centered Homeschooling [mailto:TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG] On Behalf Of
Malkie Swidler
Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2006 12:56 PM
To: TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG
Subject: Re: [TORCH-D] math help

Hands on algebra looks good, and it's priced right. Is the $80 video really
necessary to use the tool, or do the books included with the game explain
what to do? [...]41_7Nov200615:10:39-0800suelap@EARTHLINK.NET 3276 24 12_OT: Adoption6_Zohari20_najova@EARTHLINK.NET30_Tue, 7 Nov 2006 17:44:16 -0700532_US-ASCII Please respond off-list if you can give me any information for a friend in
Israel who wants to adopt, either in Israel, the US or internationally.

Thanks.

Shoshana Zohari
najova@earthlink.net

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The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by
Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org,
a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and
an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...]41_7Nov200617:44:16-0700najova@EARTHLINK.NET 3301 28 16_teaching reading15_Michelle Miller25_michelletamar@HOTMAIL.COM30_Tue, 7 Nov 2006 20:21:58 -0700757_- Mandy,

I've taught two children to read with Teach Your Child to Read....One was 4
3/4 and the other was 5. They are both avid readers, both far above "grade
level." I think it is a fantastic book and am always telling people about
it.

michelle

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The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by
Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org,
a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and
an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...]46_7Nov200620:21:58-0700michelletamar@HOTMAIL.COM 3330 105 11_1st grade ?14_Mandy Oeschger23_sailorswife@KNOLOGY.NET30_Wed, 8 Nov 2006 09:31:27 -0600536_iso-8859-1 Hi all,

We're working through a math book that has 170 lessons of worksheets. I'd LIKE to finish 1st grade by around Pesach as B'H' we're expecting during that time. We started school early but are only on lesson 30. I don't want to skip too many pages as I want to be sure my DS retains the material but my question is : If I do skip a little, how much would be okay? I have to be a "schooler" because FL requires standardized testing or a teacher to come and evaluate your child's progress. I'm grateful that I [...]44_8Nov200609:31:27-0600sailorswife@KNOLOGY.NET 3436 44 20_Re: teaching reading6_Shayna17_ssheiny@YAHOO.COM30_Wed, 8 Nov 2006 07:34:22 -0800370_iso-8859-1 I also use this book. My DD was around 3.5 when we
started (and it was too early, live and learn!), and
my DS is now 4.5 and we work on it daily - he really
enjoys it. Plus, when he does get frustrated, we just
go back a bit in the book and build up his confidence
by reviewing. I'll use it with my baby, when the time
comes, too, B"H. [...]38_8Nov200607:34:22-0800ssheiny@YAHOO.COM 3481 66 21_Re: hands on algebra?0_17_RENALEVIN@AOL.COM28_Wed, 8 Nov 2006 11:17:41 EST365_US-ASCII In a message dated 11/8/06 2:00:50 AM Eastern Standard Time,
LISTSERV@SHAMASH.ORG writes:

> . Is the $80 video really
> necessary to use the tool, or do the books included with the game explain
> what to do?
>
>

don't know! when i bought this about 5 years back, they did not have a
video.....

Rena in Baltimore [...]36_8Nov200611:17:41ESTRENALEVIN@AOL.COM 3548 46 20_Re: Teaching to read14_Jennifer Moran20_jrmoran@UCHICAGO.EDU30_Wed, 8 Nov 2006 11:34:21 -0600617_us-ascii Mandy wrote:
> I've been sitting on the book Teach Your Child to
> Read in 100 Easy Lessons. Do you have thoughts to
> share on this one?

I like the book, with a few minor reservations. The
introduction really hypes the "method" and emphasizes that you
must not skip any sections under any circumstances. But we do
skip sections when the repetition starts to bore my son. When
you're working one-on-one, I think you can take more liberties
like that-- moving along quickly to maintain interest, or
going back and repeating sections if your child begins to
struggle. [...]41_8Nov200611:34:21-0600jrmoran@UCHICAGO.EDU 3595 101 15_Re: 1st grade ?11_David Rubin19_dinadavid@YAHOO.COM30_Wed, 8 Nov 2006 09:12:59 -0800537_iso-8859-1 Hi Mandy,

Where in FL are you located, and how old is your son?
We live in Hollywood, FL. We have a son (6 y.o.) in
first grade as well, and we are planning to go the
evaluator route as well. I ask about your son's age
since we have just gone through the homeschool
process, and I am sure that FL state rules are that if
your child turns 6 by February 2007, then you need to
file a homeschool letter of intent, keep a journal,
and get evaluated at the end of this year. If you
need more [...]40_8Nov200609:12:59-0800dinadavid@YAHOO.COM 3697 62 20_Re: Teaching to read6_Shayna17_ssheiny@YAHOO.COM30_Wed, 8 Nov 2006 10:25:50 -0800515_iso-8859-1 Jennifer,
In my (one time thus far) experience with it, we never
got to most of those stories. As Kinneret learned
more, and we continued to read to her and buy/borrow
easy reading books for her, we quickly moved beyond
the Teach your Child to Read book, and never did
finish it.

I do not know that this will be the case with my son,
however, so I appreciate your "warning" of the stories
toward the end; I will have to be careful as he
continues to learn to read. [...]38_8Nov200610:25:50-0800ssheiny@YAHOO.COM 3760 51 24_working with ADHD or ADD6_Shayna17_ssheiny@YAHOO.COM30_Wed, 8 Nov 2006 10:37:45 -0800611_iso-8859-1 Hi all,
My lovely 4.5yo son is in the process of being
diagnosed with ADHD; I suspect his older sister is
also borderline ADD. This is not really "shocking"
news, as DH is ADD (although he wasn't diagnosed until
he was an adult).

Back to my son...For now, we're working on behavior
therapy and going without medication. I can honestly
say that until this past summer, I wondered (as many
people do, I think) whether ADHD was somehow a
parent's inability to parent or to handle a more
energetic child. I realize now through our experience
that this is NOT [...]38_8Nov200610:37:45-0800ssheiny@YAHOO.COM 3812 91 28_Re: working with ADHD or ADD14_Mandy Oeschger23_sailorswife@KNOLOGY.NET30_Wed, 8 Nov 2006 14:19:42 -0600578_iso-8859-1 Dear Shayna,

I've been told by a friend who teaches public elementary school that my
DS 5 would be singled out right away as having a problem. She said that at
the beginning of year, teachers get together and label the children they
think will need "help".
I have yet to meet many people who don't qualify for some sort of
disorder on one level or another, myself included. I'm glad to hear you are
not going the medical route. I've heard of so many negative effects they
can have.
How did you know your DS needed to be evaluated? [...]44_8Nov200614:19:42-0600sailorswife@KNOLOGY.NET 3904 167 28_Re: working with ADHD or ADD0_21_YiddisheMameh@AOL.COM28_Wed, 8 Nov 2006 14:02:35 EST637_US-ASCII In a message dated 11/8/2006 1:43:27 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
ssheiny@YAHOO.COM writes:

Hi all,
My lovely 4.5yo son is in the process of being
diagnosed with ADHD; I suspect his older sister is
also borderline ADD. This is not really "shocking"
news, as DH is ADD (although he wasn't diagnosed until
he was an adult).

Back to my son...For now, we're working on behavior
therapy and going without medication. I can honestly
say that until this past summer, I wondered (as many
people do, I think) whether ADHD was somehow a
parent's inability to parent or to handle a more
[...]40_8Nov200614:02:35ESTYiddisheMameh@AOL.COM 4072 127 23_Re: 1st grade / florida14_Mandy Oeschger23_sailorswife@KNOLOGY.NET30_Wed, 8 Nov 2006 12:12:37 -0600321_iso-8859-1 Hi, Thanks so much. We're near Panama City Beach. AKA P.retty C.lose
to B.abalyon. :-) My DS is 5 birthday in March. So, we're able to skim by
this year w/o joining the system. Are the evaluations tough? What to they
entail? Do they check every dotted eye and crossed t? Thanks for your
help. [...]44_8Nov200612:12:37-0600sailorswife@KNOLOGY.NET 4200 124 28_Re: working with ADHD or ADD14_Rebecca Harper22_hudabecca@RAINMALL.COM30_Wed, 8 Nov 2006 14:55:21 -0700554_utf-8 You mean MY son might be NORMAL? My oldest son (6 next month!!!!) has been
a VERY active/busy person from about 2 yrs until about a week ago (when I
noticed that he is changing, for the good, B"H) It took a while, but for
the last 15 months or so I have been able to handle this business (which
many would consider ADHD right away - his preschool teacher actually wrote
that he needed medical help! B"H we did NOT head that particular advice -
she did not really understand my son, even after that whole year. --don't
get [...]43_8Nov200614:55:21-0700hudabecca@RAINMALL.COM 4325 64 28_Re: working with ADHD or ADD14_Jennifer Moran20_jrmoran@UCHICAGO.EDU30_Wed, 8 Nov 2006 15:41:20 -0600475_us-ascii Note: after I wrote the message below, I realized it was
really negative and depressing. I in no way want to imply that
this is your child's destiny, that he is doomed to the fate I
describe below. With your love and awareness, and HaShem's
help, he will have a wonderful future and escape the problems
I describe. I just wanted to describe what *sometimes* happens
in schools so you can foresee problems and avoid them.
With that said.... [...]41_8Nov200615:41:20-0600jrmoran@UCHICAGO.EDU 4390 121 28_Re: working with ADHD or ADD12_Yael Resnick22_njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM30_Wed, 8 Nov 2006 16:09:52 -0500405_us-ascii There is a book called The ADHD Fraud which is extremely well
researched and very, very eye-opening. I realize the title is
provocative (and potentially very annoying, especially when there is
already someone in the family labeled with ADD), but I wouldn't even
*begin* a conversation about the right approach for your child until
you have read this book from cover to cover. [...]43_8Nov200616:09:52-0500njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM 4512 48 28_Re: working with ADHD or ADD6_Zohari20_najova@EARTHLINK.NET30_Wed, 8 Nov 2006 14:03:21 -0700551_US-ASCII > I find our son does infinitely better with more routine and
> a firm hand on disipline. I mean NO flack...

I am not dealing with ADD or ADHD, but I have to say that we take a similar
approach and have had much better behavior as a result. "Head time" is very
important for my son, meaning: structured math, science, Hebrew, etc. every
day to get the brain organized. For a long time I thought it was most
important to do limudei kodesh first thing in the morning, but now I know
that math as the first subject [...]41_8Nov200614:03:21-0700najova@EARTHLINK.NET 4561 136 28_Re: working with ADHD or ADD8_cillakat18_cillakat@GMAIL.COM30_Wed, 8 Nov 2006 19:03:33 -0500406_ISO-8859-1 << My lovely 4.5yo son is in the process of being
> diagnosed with ADHD; I suspect his older sister is
> also borderline ADD. >>

I just learned this last weekend at the CHADD conference, that the
term ADD is no longer used. Big suprise to me since i use it
everyday:) LOL. Anyway, it's ADHD-inattentive now (instead of ADD)
and ADHD-hyperactive or ADHD-combined type. [...]39_8Nov200619:03:33-0500cillakat@GMAIL.COM 4698 49 28_Re: working with ADHD or ADD8_cillakat18_cillakat@GMAIL.COM30_Wed, 8 Nov 2006 19:09:05 -0500584_ISO-8859-1 <> DS 5 would be singled out right away as having a problem. She said that at
> the beginning of year, teachers get together and label the children they
> think will need "help".>>

School is one of those artificial environments though that for many
kids....bring out the worst. In my daughters first grade class of 17,
there were 9 kids who had either been diagnosed with something or were
in the process of doing the testing. By the end of the year, you
could bring [...]39_8Nov200619:09:05-0500cillakat@GMAIL.COM 4748 295 28_Re: working with ADHD or ADD6_Shayna17_ssheiny@YAHOO.COM30_Wed, 8 Nov 2006 19:46:27 -0800581_iso-8859-1 Katherine,

Thank you SO much for your message. I also appreciate
the others, and will respond probably tomorrow (I need
SOME sleep!). However, reading your message, I could
see that you could come to my house, see my son, and
just nod your head.

Uri is the sweetest boy in the world. Honestly, he
does not have a wicked bone in his body. And yet, it
got to a point over the summer where he would beat,
yes, beat, his older sister. He has no impulse
control. He is so remorseful afterwards, and of
course we cannot let it go [...]38_8Nov200619:46:27-0800ssheiny@YAHOO.COM 5044 359 28_Re: working with ADHD or ADD13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM30_Wed, 8 Nov 2006 20:43:06 -0800549_iso-8859-1 I know that what I am going to say will sound heartless and is probably not going to be well received, but I'll say it anyway because I wish I had heard it years ago instead of all the psycho babble that substitutes for good parenting advice. I think you are underestimating your child to say that he has no control whatsoever. I don't doubt for a second that he struggles with impulse control much more than your average child, and I recognize the challenges that can bring. But to say that he can't control it means that you won't [...]43_8Nov200620:43:06-0800avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 5404 52 28_Re: working with ADHD or ADD12_Yael Resnick22_njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM30_Wed, 8 Nov 2006 23:35:11 -0500599_us-ascii Hi Shayna,

I can really relate to what you are going through with your son. With
my son (almost 10), I have found it especially heartbreaking to see
how bad he feels for not controlling himself better, once his
conscience kicks back in! I get sweet apology notes... and I end up
feeling guilty for whatever anger I might have shown, because
obviously he IS trying so hard, but he is not always successful in
reigning himself in. Of course, the times he IS successful, I don't
necessarily know about it, because there was no problem! So his
successes may [...]43_8Nov200623:35:11-0500njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM 5457 85 28_Re: working with ADHD or ADD8_cillakat18_cillakat@GMAIL.COM30_Wed, 8 Nov 2006 23:37:36 -0500621_ISO-8859-1 <control, and I see his self-esteem suffer, that I
wonder if we're doing the right thing by not at least
trying out the medication...>>

these are the times when you wonder. and this is exactly the case
when it's sometimes the right choice.

the amantadine was amazing for Alana b/c while it didn't address the
focus/attention stuff, it was enough to allow her to pull back and
gain control of herself. it was the difference between her getting
kicked out of camp and the counselors saying 'she is *amazing*....this
week she's [...]39_8Nov200623:37:36-0500cillakat@GMAIL.COM 5543 59 28_Re: working with ADHD or ADD8_cillakat18_cillakat@GMAIL.COM30_Wed, 8 Nov 2006 23:59:51 -0500551_ISO-8859-1 <>

eh, not really. It just sounds like you don't know my child and have
*no idea* what it's like to be her, or me and live the life we do.

She does spend a lot of time close to me when she needs to......and
no, i generally, with rare exception, can't leave my kids alone to
play. She *doesn't have the impulse control* to manage it unless
she's on amantadine. Period. It's got nothing to do with my or our
families expectations for her. I am a very [...]39_8Nov200623:59:51-0500cillakat@GMAIL.COM 5603 55 28_Re: working with ADHD or ADD13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM30_Wed, 8 Nov 2006 21:13:49 -0800562_iso-8859-1 I predicted this response before writing, but I made the decision to share a view I knew I probably would be attacked for, and will continue to stand behind it. :)

My response wasn't written to you, I responded to something very specific written by one person. I wasn't generalizing about every ADHD child, I was writing about one issue as she expressed it. You may very well disagree with what I suggested, and that's fine. You're right, I don't know how it feels to raise any child but my own. None of us do. That doesn't mean that some [...]43_8Nov200621:13:49-0800avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 5659 97 24_working with ADHD or ADD8_cillakat18_cillakat@GMAIL.COM30_Thu, 9 Nov 2006 00:23:14 -0500588_ISO-8859-1 A member of this list posted privately to me....wanting to add to the
discussion, but also wanting to respect the wishes of the child who
prefers that his/her issue not be shared publicly. Here is what this
parent shares:

> "Many people told me my child was ADD--for years. I fought against the
> label and against the people who told me to medicate. In fact, this issue
> was the major piece in getting us to homeschool. I wouldn't medicate my
> child. We tried every kind of natural alternative I could find, spent
> thousands of dollars and [...]39_9Nov200600:23:14-0500cillakat@GMAIL.COM 5757 46 28_Re: working with ADHD or ADD12_Yael Resnick22_njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM30_Thu, 9 Nov 2006 00:22:57 -0500554_us-ascii Hi Katherine,

I'm wondering if there are perhaps also self-esteem issues that can
develop in some kids who are taking medication, because of possibly
feeling that without taking pills, they are not able to be good
enough, controlled enough.... Since the medication is something
"external" that is making everyone so proud and happy with the "new"
behavior...?? Would a child wonder whether the teacher, counselor,
parent is really so happy with him or her, or are they proud of how
well the medication works...? [...]43_9Nov200600:22:57-0500njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM 5804 43 28_Re: working with ADHD or ADD12_Yael Resnick22_njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM30_Thu, 9 Nov 2006 00:28:49 -0500563_us-ascii Avivah,

From my experience, I can say that I completely agree with this & the
rest of what you wrote. The self-esteem that I see finally coming
through in my son is a direct result of his growing success with
controlling himself and channeling his energy & impulses in positive
directions. We still have a lot of work to do, even after all these
years, but it is getting easier. I tell him every day that he is
really turning into a mensch!! I do believe he will grow into an
absolute mensch of an adult and he will have [...]43_9Nov200600:28:49-0500njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM 5848 58 28_Re: working with ADHD or ADD12_Yael Resnick22_njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM30_Thu, 9 Nov 2006 00:46:46 -0500316_us-ascii > It just sounds like you don't know my child and have
>*no idea* what it's like to be her, or me and live the life we do.

True -- we do all have to remember that none of us really knows what
another family's particular challenges are, or how someone else's
child behaves and responds. [...]43_9Nov200600:46:46-0500njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM 5907 75 28_Re: working with ADHD or ADD12_Yael Resnick22_njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM30_Wed, 8 Nov 2006 22:21:42 -0500620_us-ascii Hi Katherine,

First of all I want to make it clear that I am *not* saying that ADHD
does not exist. The book I referred to (The ADHD Fraud) has an
intentionally provocative title, and the author definitely has very
strong opinions about the way children are currently diagnosed and
treated. He disagrees that ADHD is a medical disorder, but
acknowledges that it is a set of challenging behaviors that need to
be addressed. (His belief is that something like 95% or 99% of
children diagnosed with ADHD do not need medication.) He feels that
for most children, ADHD "symptoms" [...]43_8Nov200622:21:42-0500njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM 5983 69 50_Re: working with ADHD or ADD and Shalom on Torch'd14_Laya B Jackson17_tolife18@JUNO.COM30_Thu, 9 Nov 2006 09:37:57 +0200321_us-ascii The tricky thing with this discussion is not to make parents feel like
failures when each of us is working so hard to be the best parent we can.
No matter the method of growing our children, it's important to
acknowledge that there are different paths, each working for some and not
for others. [...]38_9Nov200609:37:57+0200tolife18@JUNO.COM 6053 46 28_Re: working with ADHD or ADD14_Rebecca Harper22_hudabecca@RAINMALL.COM30_Thu, 9 Nov 2006 05:19:43 -0700547_utf-8 > and if you told me that
> he would be almost 10 before we could see a real light at the end of the
> tunnel I would have panicked!
>

Some words to hopefuly give hope to some people:

My husband was apparently a terror until he was about 10 (sneaking out of
the house at 3 am, writing nasty words on ppl's cars with shoe polish,
setting fires to garbage cans, not being able to concentrate... in other
words, just plain bad - and he DID get repremanded by his parents every
time.....) About age 10 he [...]43_9Nov200605:19:43-0700hudabecca@RAINMALL.COM 6100 212 23_Re: 1st grade / florida14_Malkie Swidler18_malkie18@GMAIL.COM30_Thu, 9 Nov 2006 14:31:34 +0200508_ISO-8859-1 Mandy--

I just took a look at Florida homeschooling regulations and I came away with
a vastly different impression. Tachlis, you can easily unschool or do some
other sort of child-led learning in Florida. All you need to do is keep a
portfolio (which is why G-d created digital cameras) and find a like-minded
certified teacher (ask around). You see, YOU choose the evaluator. So how
harsh the evaluation is depends completely on who you've chosen as your
evaluator. [...]39_9Nov200614:31:34+0200malkie18@GMAIL.COM 6313 131 28_Re: working with ADHD or ADD14_Malkie Swidler18_malkie18@GMAIL.COM30_Thu, 9 Nov 2006 14:53:12 +0200362_ISO-8859-1 I'm just going to stir the pot a *little* and ask this question:

Of the people here who have children diagnosed with ADHD (or are suspected
to have this disorder), how many are homeschooling? Not after-schooling, not
thinking about it, not here to share ideas, but actually down and dirty,
full time, all the time, homeschooling? [...]39_9Nov200614:53:12+0200malkie18@GMAIL.COM 6445 62 28_Re: working with ADHD or ADD6_Shayna17_ssheiny@YAHOO.COM30_Thu, 9 Nov 2006 08:42:29 -0800557_iso-8859-1 This is indeed our hope - to avoid medication. But
that being said, I am not opposed to it, either, and I
find that this is one of the challenges. It is the
same challenge that comes up time and again with your
children (as far as my experience goes, at least) -
how much do you "get involved" and how much do you let
them grow/learn on their own? (I'm not talking about
"formal" learning, here.) There is a balance, or
perhaps a tension, that exists in parenting. I don't
want to NOT put him on medication to his [...]38_9Nov200608:42:29-0800ssheiny@YAHOO.COM 6508 88 28_Re: working with ADHD or ADD6_Shayna17_ssheiny@YAHOO.COM30_Thu, 9 Nov 2006 08:33:42 -0800611_iso-8859-1 Malkie,

This is an interesting question, and I'm very
interested in the answers. As someone who currently
afterschools our children, it is a serious
consideration as our son reaches toward
Kindergarten-age.

Right now I'm working with him on learning how to read
(Using Teach Your Child to Read in 100 Easy
Lessons...) and one of the first things that I've
realized is that I can be flexible based on how he
responds. My older DD was fairly willing to sit and
learn, and also loves to do workbooks, etc. Uri is
not that way at all. More than once now, [...]38_9Nov200608:33:42-0800ssheiny@YAHOO.COM 6597 140 28_Re: working with ADHD or ADD0_21_YiddisheMameh@AOL.COM28_Thu, 9 Nov 2006 10:53:49 EST462_US-ASCII In a message dated 11/9/2006 8:11:59 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
malkie18@GMAIL.COM writes:

I'm just going to stir the pot a *little* and ask this question:

Of the people here who have children diagnosed with ADHD (or are suspected
to have this disorder), how many are homeschooling? Not after-schooling, not
thinking about it, not here to share ideas, but actually down and dirty, full
time, all the time, homeschooling? [...]40_9Nov200610:53:49ESTYiddisheMameh@AOL.COM 6738 310 28_Re: working with ADHD or ADD6_Shayna17_ssheiny@YAHOO.COM30_Thu, 9 Nov 2006 09:03:15 -0800536_iso-8859-1 I do understand what you are saying, and I understand
that you are not in any way commenting on our
parenting.

That being said, I disagree with you. I know my son,
I am with him every day. I am not underestimating my
son, I do expect him to behave as a 4 year old should
behave - which is how all of this got started to begin
with! We do expect him to control himself, and we do
are best to give him the guidance that he needs.
Indeed, one of the things that therapy has taught me
thus [...]38_9Nov200609:03:15-0800ssheiny@YAHOO.COM 7049 22 4_ADHD0_27_billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET30_Thu, 9 Nov 2006 12:10:31 -0500548_ISO-8859-1 Hi all,
This is an important topic and one I am glad we have aired. I dont think further discussion is necessary. If anyone feels the need for it, please pursue it off-list.
Thanks
Bill
Likely Dad to 3 Kids in TN.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by
Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org,
a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and
an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...]48_9Nov200612:10:31-0500billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET 7072 60 12_Likely dad??13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM30_Thu, 9 Nov 2006 12:40:55 -0800476_iso-8859-1 Bill, what does that mean? Do you have another one on the way? Or is is another of your obscure and mysterious phrases that is once again leaving me scratching my shaitel? :)

Avivah

billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET wrote:
Hi all,
This is an important topic and one I am glad we have aired. I dont think further discussion is necessary. If anyone feels the need for it, please pursue it off-list.
Thanks
Bill
Likely Dad to 3 Kids in TN. [...]43_9Nov200612:40:55-0800avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 7133 56 16_Re: Likely dad??0_27_billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET30_Thu, 9 Nov 2006 15:47:14 -0500625_ISO-8859-1 Let's jsut say no blood tests have been performed.....
>
> From: Avivah Werner
> Date: 2006/11/09 Thu PM 03:40:55 EST
> To: TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG
> Subject: [TORCH-D] Likely dad??
>
> Bill, what does that mean? Do you have another one on the way? Or is is another of your obscure and mysterious phrases that is once again leaving me scratching my shaitel? :)
>
> Avivah
>
> billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET wrote:
> Hi all,
> This is an important topic and one I am glad we have aired. I dont think further discussion is necessary. If anyone feels the [...]48_9Nov200615:47:14-0500billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET 7190 105 16_Re: Likely dad??14_Malkie Swidler18_malkie18@GMAIL.COM30_Thu, 9 Nov 2006 23:19:44 +0200621_ISO-8859-1 Awe, c'mon Aviva, you know how big a skeptic Bill can be. He probably just
said that because he hasn't gotten the chance to do the proper genetic
testing on the three children his (poor, beleaguered) wife claims are his.
;)

Malkie

On 11/9/06, Avivah Werner wrote:
>
> Bill, what does that mean? Do you have another one on the way? Or is is
> another of your obscure and mysterious phrases that is once again leaving me
> scratching my shaitel? :)
>
> Avivah
>
> *billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET* wrote:
>
> Hi all,
> This is an [...]39_9Nov200623:19:44+0200malkie18@GMAIL.COM 7296 95 16_Re: Likely dad??12_Rena Weisman19_renaweisman@COX.NET30_Thu, 9 Nov 2006 13:59:17 -0700703_iso-8859-1 Bill,

I laughed when I read that on your original post.

I need to get you in touch with my husband, you guys defintely have the same
sense of humor! ;o)

Kol Tuv,
Rena W.

----- Original Message -----
From:
To:
Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 1:47 PM
Subject: Re: [TORCH-D] Likely dad??

> Let's jsut say no blood tests have been performed.....
>>
>> From: Avivah Werner
>> Date: 2006/11/09 Thu PM 03:40:55 EST
>> To: TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG
>> Subject: [TORCH-D] Likely dad??
>>
>> Bill, what does that mean? Do you have another one on the [...]40_9Nov200613:59:17-0700renaweisman@COX.NET 7392 42 20_A fun thing to share12_Rena Weisman19_renaweisman@COX.NET30_Thu, 9 Nov 2006 14:33:25 -0700563_iso-8859-1 Those of you who are veteran homeschoolers might just nod at this ...but I
thought I'd share it...

Since Parshas Noach I have started making a "Parsha Cake" with my oldest
daughter (almost 4 ) to help reinforce some things from the Parsha.

For example, we made a Teiva cake shape for Parshas Noach (with 3 floors and
the appropo things on each) - this week, we made a cake in the shape of
Avraham Avinu's tent with all 4 doors (along with a lesson of the 4
directions). To go with the cake, we made a batch of cookies [...]40_9Nov200614:33:25-0700renaweisman@COX.NET 7435 164 16_Re: Likely dad??14_Malkie Swidler18_malkie18@GMAIL.COM30_Thu, 9 Nov 2006 23:43:41 +0200412_ISO-8859-1 LOL, Bill, I sent in my reply to Aviva before I received yours. I've known
you too long. Funny enough, we've never met irl. You've got to stop by next
time you're in the country.

I think you'd hit it off my my dh-- he likes to introduce me as "and this is
Malkie, my first wife". Clearly, the man likes to live dangerously. But
everyone here knows that already, he married me. [...]39_9Nov200623:43:41+0200malkie18@GMAIL.COM 7600 73 24_Re: A fun thing to share11_Rick Dinitz16_dinitz@TIBCO.COM30_Thu, 9 Nov 2006 13:58:58 -0800389_us-ascii Rena,

What a great idea!

Of course, some of us who are not such skilled cake bakers might end up
repeating the Tohu-vaVohu cake from Bereshit every week.

But seriously, folks... I sometimes bake challot that allude to the
parashah, or to a yom tov. For example, applique shapes of lulav and
etrog on Sukkot, or a Torah choshen on Simchat Torah. [...]37_9Nov200613:58:58-0800dinitz@TIBCO.COM 7674 113 24_Re: A fun thing to share14_Malkie Swidler18_malkie18@GMAIL.COM31_Fri, 10 Nov 2006 00:17:17 +0200372_ISO-8859-1 Rena,

Today I spent the ENTIRE day with a sick three year old glued to my lap. Her
little sister became jealous and tried to glue herself to my lap, also, but
couldn't stick it out because she is both healthy and exceptionally curious.

The only lightbulb here that i had anything to do with is the one that blew
out in the bathroom. [...]40_10Nov200600:17:17+0200malkie18@GMAIL.COM 7788 112 24_Re: A fun thing to share12_Rena Weisman19_renaweisman@COX.NET30_Thu, 9 Nov 2006 16:09:56 -0700518_iso-8859-1 Baking the cake is the easy part - anyone can do it - I use a basic
chocolate cake and chocolate icing (my husband thinks white cake is a sin)
for the cake - its the decorating part that causes us to be creative!
Actually, my daughter comes up with some pretty good ideas! I'm going to
see how long this lasts, but she has so much fun with it and I think it
makes the parsha more real. (For the cake design, I usually use a paper
template that I lay on top of the cake and cut around [...]40_9Nov200616:09:56-0700renaweisman@COX.NET 7901 51 24_Re: A fun thing to share18_Benjamin H Dickman19_bdickman@LUCENT.COM30_Thu, 9 Nov 2006 18:32:38 -0500332_us-ascii Yes, it's the fun that works best!

My girls (11 & 8) will come to the keyboard, but it's
not fun to play the basic stuff in the beginner's music book.

They loved it when I wrote their favorite music out on paper.
They tried it over and over until they could play it the way
they know it sounds. [...]40_9Nov200618:32:38-0500bdickman@LUCENT.COM 7953 106 16_Re: Likely dad??10_Larry Beck19_larry@BECKFORCE.COM30_Thu, 9 Nov 2006 18:58:41 -0500489_us-ascii I like your DH Malki. I don't think you have to worry (unless he is
Sphardi). I usually refer to my DW as "The Wife Unit" (unless she is real
good and then she is the "Bies").
Next time Y'all are in Atlanta you'll need to stop by.
Larry

_____

From: Torah-Centered Homeschooling [mailto:TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG] On Behalf Of
Malkie Swidler
Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 4:44 PM
To: TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG
Subject: Re: [TORCH-D] Likely dad?? [...]40_9Nov200618:58:41-0500larry@BECKFORCE.COM 8060 69 16_Re: Likely dad??13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM30_Thu, 9 Nov 2006 19:08:50 -0800401_iso-8859-1 Okay, I don't have much of a sense of humor. What can I do??

Seriously, I thought you only had two kids, Bill, a girl around 13 and a boy about 11ish. I thought the 'likely' comment must have something to do with some kind of addition, temporary/visitor or something else along those lines. After all this time being onlist with you, I have been overlooking one of your kids??! [...]43_9Nov200619:08:50-0800avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 8130 278 16_Re: Likely dad??15_Shoshana Sloman18_ssloman@NETLAB.COM31_Sun, 12 Nov 2006 23:30:35 -0500459_us-ascii Give him a mazal tov-they have recently been blessed with the addition of a
baby boy. (I can't believe he kept it secret from y'all all this time!)

_____

From: Torah-Centered Homeschooling [mailto:TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG] On Behalf Of
Avivah Werner
Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 10:09 PM
To: TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG
Subject: Re: [TORCH-D] Likely dad??

Okay, I don't have much of a sense of humor. What can I do?? [...]40_12Nov200623:30:35-0500ssloman@NETLAB.COM 8409 56 27_Homeschooling on chabad.org6_Zohari20_najova@EARTHLINK.NET31_Mon, 13 Nov 2006 17:36:11 -0700799_ISO-8859-1 ------ Forwarded Message
From: "Chabad.org"
Reply-To:
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 16:47:03 -0500
To: "najova@earthlink.net"
Subject: THE JEWISH WOMAN UPDATE: "Choosing Homeschooling," "Lessons From
Beyond" & more...

B"H

Cheshvan 22, 5767 * November 13, 2006

An interesting piece that appeared on chabad.org. Your thoughts anyone?

Shoshana Z.

======================================================================

THEJEWISHWOMAN.ORG NEWSLETTER

Spirituality * Acts of Transformation * Relationships & Marriage *
Pregnancy & Birth * Motherhood & Childrearing * Women's Health &
Concerns * Practical Tips & Recipes * Creative Corner * Dear Rachel [...]42_13Nov200617:36:11-0700najova@EARTHLINK.NET 8466 122 16_Re: Likely dad??14_Malkie Swidler18_malkie18@GMAIL.COM31_Fri, 10 Nov 2006 10:48:23 +0200375_ISO-8859-1 Then you'd also like his brother-- my bil likes to introduce his wife as his
"ex-fiance". :roll:

None of this freaks me out nearly as much as my mil, who likes to introduce
me, in all seriousness, as her son's "ezer k'negdo". Now there's a biblical
reference to dig out for the shabbos guests! If she wants Hebrew, isn't
"Ra'ayato" enough? [...]40_10Nov200610:48:23+0200malkie18@GMAIL.COM 8589 93 28_Re: working with ADHD or ADD26_Daniel and Leigh Bar-Yakov21_ldby@NETVISION.NET.IL31_Fri, 10 Nov 2006 09:24:14 +0200584_us-ascii Hi,
My name is Leigh, mother of 4 homeschooled kids in Israel. I am catching
some of this thread on ADHD and I just wanted to add two comments...
First, a good friend of mine has a child who went on medication for ADD only
to have an adverse reaction diagnosed as manic depression (a propensity in
the family triggered by the meds). She was seven at the time. The situation
over the last two years has only deteriorated and she is currently under 24
hour psychiatric care. Secondly, I wonder how often ADHD/ADD is diagnosed or
assumed instead of [...]43_10Nov200609:24:14+0200ldby@NETVISION.NET.IL 8683 85 31_Re: Homeschooling on chabad.org14_Rebecca Harper22_hudabecca@RAINMALL.COM31_Tue, 14 Nov 2006 06:51:15 -0700536_utf-8 That is a very interesting and very healthy article. Almost surprised (but
not really) that it was on a chabad website - I do think that many chabad
families who are shluchim do homeschool their children to a certain extend
anyways. Almost surprised is only because it was on the "main" chabad
website and I think there are still a lot of people who are not sure what to
make about homeschooling - even though until the last century MANY people
where homeschooled with private tutors and even from parents. [...]44_14Nov200606:51:15-0700hudabecca@RAINMALL.COM 8769 46 28_Re: working with ADHD or ADD8_cillakat18_cillakat@GMAIL.COM31_Tue, 14 Nov 2006 08:52:01 -0500686_ISO-8859-1 <> assumed instead of other "disorders" that are less common or recognizable
> such as asperger's syndrome (with which behavioral approaches help rather
> than meds) and depression.>>

with a skilled clinician it shouldn't be much of an issue. though
depression does often coexist w ith ADHD and that was my personal
experience. the 'failures' and extreme frustrations I experienced as
a teen living with ADHD caused depression.....i suffered with that for
about 10-12 years before the depression started to co-exist with
anxiety and was ultimately replaced completey by anxiety (with [...]40_14Nov200608:52:01-0500cillakat@GMAIL.COM 8816 130 31_Re: Homeschooling on chabad.org13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Tue, 14 Nov 2006 14:55:10 -0800639_iso-8859-1 Of course it was a balanced article, it was written by a very balanced and clear thinking Torch-d list member!

Viva, is this the article that you wrote for Aish.com originally? It seemed familiar to me.

Avivah

Rebecca Harper wrote:
That is a very interesting and very healthy article. Almost surprised (but
not really) that it was on a chabad website - I do think that many chabad
families who are shluchim do homeschool their children to a certain extend
anyways. Almost surprised is only because it was on the "main" chabad
website and I think there are still [...]44_14Nov200614:55:10-0800avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 8947 76 42_Re: Homeschooling on chabad.org, social...13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Tue, 14 Nov 2006 15:34:20 -0800434_iso-8859-1 The first thing I ever read in a Jewish publication about homeschooling was in a book by Chabad. It was a book that was a series of essays (maybe culled from conferences for shluchim? - Chana S., do you know what I am referring to?), and a couple of essays were on homeschooling. I think the assumption was that it would be valuable to women in shlichus who are in areas where there are no schools for their children. [...]44_14Nov200615:34:20-0800avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 9024 49 42_Re: Homeschooling on chabad.org, social...11_Nechama Cox20_nechama@BOREALIS.COM31_Tue, 14 Nov 2006 18:52:36 -0500440_us-ascii Avivah

While I very much enjoy your posts, I have to take issue with one
thing you wrote:

>Anyway, my impression based on that book was that parents were
>keeping their 'school is the best way to do it' perspective, and
>were very much trying to replicate it at home, homeschooling only
>because they didn't have a school to send their kids to. Very
>different from a true homeschool perspective. [...]42_14Nov200618:52:36-0500nechama@BOREALIS.COM 9074 79 42_Re: Homeschooling on chabad.org, social...13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Tue, 14 Nov 2006 18:14:14 -0800620_iso-8859-1 Nechama,

You are the most structured homeschoolers I know, and I think you guys are fabulous! :)

I wasn't meaning to imply that someone who homeschools in a structured way isn't a 'real' homeschooler; that's not my feeling at all. My point was that the two women who both wrote saw homeschooling as a 'bedieved' that they were only doing for lack of a local school choice. I wasn't saying because they were structured that they didn't have a true homeschooler's perspective; I meant because theirs was a default position regarding hsing that I don't think they represent most homeschoolers [...]44_14Nov200618:14:14-0800avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 9154 169 37_Dover books 25% discount for two days14_Laya B Jackson17_tolife18@JUNO.COM31_Wed, 15 Nov 2006 05:34:59 +0200562_iso-8859-1 Hi List,
Just thought this might be a good thing for people to check out if you
want to buy anything from this company. They have the classics for a
pretty good price and lots of other things (we've used some of their how
to draw series).
Laya

Time is running out: you only have two more days to save 25% on our
complete collection of over 9,000 titles!
Just use Coupon Code HA22 when ordering, and not only can you stock up on
great books for yourself, you can get a jump on your holiday shopping.
You can even [...]39_15Nov200605:34:59+0200tolife18@JUNO.COM 9324 124 31_Re: Homeschooling on chabad.org6_Shayna17_ssheiny@YAHOO.COM31_Wed, 15 Nov 2006 06:44:57 -0800395_iso-8859-1 This is an interesting article - most especially for
me as it shows that a person may choose to send a
child (or children) to school while keeping another
one (or more!) home to hs.

Are there people on this list who do this? It certain
gives me food for thought...

~Shayna, afterschooling
Kinneret 7yo
Uri Amitai 4.5yo
Sivan Margalit 5+ months [...]39_15Nov200606:44:57-0800ssheiny@YAHOO.COM 9449 195 31_Re: Homeschooling on chabad.org14_Bill Bernstein27_billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET31_Wed, 15 Nov 2006 09:22:40 -0600668_ISO-8859-1 My daughter goes to public school and my son is homeschooled. Different
children have different needs. I always understood this as a bedrock
principle of homeschooling.
KT
Bill

Shayna wrote:

>This is an interesting article - most especially for
>me as it shows that a person may choose to send a
>child (or children) to school while keeping another
>one (or more!) home to hs.
>
>Are there people on this list who do this? It certain
>gives me food for thought...
>
>~Shayna, afterschooling
>Kinneret 7yo
>Uri Amitai 4.5yo
>Sivan Margalit 5+ months
>
>
>
>
>>Zohari writes:
[...]49_15Nov200609:22:40-0600billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET 9645 142 17_Re: Homeschooling14_Rebecca Harper22_hudabecca@RAINMALL.COM31_Wed, 15 Nov 2006 08:47:30 -0700532_utf-8 We wanted to homeschool when our first son was born, because we wanted to. I
changed my mind for I thought I would not be able to handle him home all
day.

We ended up homeschooling for we felt we had too. My son (who is almost 6)
thinks he would like to go to school. I do not want to send him to school.
We have two school options (we are not sending to public school). The
school that matches our religious philosophy we do not want him going to -
the kids there are unfortunately mean and not [...]44_15Nov200608:47:30-0700hudabecca@RAINMALL.COM 9788 65 26_Homeschooling and finances13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Wed, 15 Nov 2006 08:23:39 -0800539_iso-8859-1 This comment brings up an issue that I am trying to figure out. How in the world does the average frum family manage financially long term? I haven't gotten any satisfactory answers and am hoping to hear some more insight. The answers I get remind me of the kind of responses I used to get when I would ask kollel wives how they managed to live on a kollel salary, and when I asked Israelis where their parents got money to buy all of their kids apartments. Vague 'everyone manages somehow', 'it's hard' kind of responses. [...]44_15Nov200608:23:39-0800avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 9854 237 31_Re: Homeschooling on chabad.org14_Laya B Jackson17_tolife18@JUNO.COM31_Wed, 15 Nov 2006 18:31:50 +0200375_iso-8859-1 I've had one in school, one out, then they've switched, then both
homeschooled, and now (gasp!) they are both in school at the same time
for the first time ever.

I'm still in denial. And I still feel like we're homeschooling in many
ways. It's like a mind set and it's in my bones. Now I have partners
who are helping me. This year anyway. [...]39_15Nov200618:31:50+0200tolife18@JUNO.COM 10092 69 30_Re: Homeschooling and finances14_Rebecca Harper22_hudabecca@RAINMALL.COM31_Wed, 15 Nov 2006 12:01:16 -0700572_utf-8 The answer is that they go into debt, and/or PHD (papa has dow) in any
case, what happens when this generation is the "papa" they are all in
yeshiva being a rebbe, earning basically nothing... or close to it.

Our goal is for our children to be able to earn a living in the real world.
Doing whatever, carpentry, acounting, doctor, mechanic, etc. But I think
it's important for each person to have an education outside of learning
Torah so that IF they need to, they have soemthing to fall back on. We have
seen too many people who need [...]44_15Nov200612:01:16-0700hudabecca@RAINMALL.COM 10162 75 30_Re: Homeschooling and finances13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Wed, 15 Nov 2006 13:02:42 -0800541_iso-8859-1 I agree with everything that you said. I very much stress to my kids the importance of being able to make a living. (We were just talking about this at breakfast today. :)) So I'm not asking about people in learning or in kollel, there isn't a way for them to make it alone unless they live 'outside of the box'. If kollel families were the only ones unable to uphold the standards, it would be okay because there would be a different set of standards for those who have more and those who have less. I'm asking about people [...]44_15Nov200613:02:42-0800avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 10238 560 30_Re: Homeschooling and finances6_suelap20_suelap@EARTHLINK.NET31_Wed, 15 Nov 2006 13:29:05 -0800576_US-ASCII I was just talking about this with my daughter yesterday who is feeling that
by keeping her three (!!!!) year old out of school she is bucking the trend
of what everyone else is doing and can't find playmates for him. She
mentioned getting the local park and rec guide with lots of programs for
three and four year olds and realizing that lots of people don't send their
kids to pre-school. But they're people who are waiting for free public
school age to kick in. Same thing for summer camps. Boy scout camps or
Christian camps run for one [...]42_15Nov200613:29:05-0800suelap@EARTHLINK.NET 10799 67 30_Re: Homeschooling and finances11_Nechama Cox20_nechama@BOREALIS.COM31_Wed, 15 Nov 2006 16:40:37 -0500446_us-ascii Avivah

>I see the very high expectations as a major component of the
>problem. When the basic expectations are out of reach for all but
>the wealthy, but everyone still feels compelled to provide them, it
>means that the vast majority of the society is living beyong their
>means.

I am not sure what high expectations entail, as your earlier message
was about the basics -- food, tuition, shelter, etc. [...]42_15Nov200616:40:37-0500nechama@BOREALIS.COM 10867 38 8_finances15_Michelle Miller25_michelletamar@HOTMAIL.COM31_Wed, 15 Nov 2006 17:49:37 -0700575_- Avivah,

We had a shabbes guest last year from a large frum community back east with
6 kids in yeshiva/seminary and I point blank asked her how they afforded it.
She laughed and said they are deeply in debt and use credit cards for most
of it. I asked, wasn't she worried about all that debt and she said she
just couldn't think about it, because there is NO choice!! Wow...until I
have it in writng that the "community" will pay for my retirement, I'm not
signing on for that. As my favorite financial counselor says, "Proverbs 21
says the [...]47_15Nov200617:49:37-0700michelletamar@HOTMAIL.COM 10906 79 17_Re: Homeschooling6_Zohari20_najova@EARTHLINK.NET31_Wed, 15 Nov 2006 15:58:05 -0700583_US-ASCII Funny, this whole discussion has pushed that little button in me that is
ready to chuck the whole "community" life and head back to the sticks. My
husband and I lived in a teepee in rural southwestern Colorado before we got
on the derech. There is such an appeal to being out on your own,
eliminating the peer pressure that comes with city life. We are steadfast
in our homeschooling and primary commitment to our children, but it gets
tiring being so far outside of the box sometimes. When we were out there
our sense of internal direction was so [...]42_15Nov200615:58:05-0700najova@EARTHLINK.NET 10986 95 12_Re: finances18_Benjamin H Dickman19_bdickman@LUCENT.COM31_Wed, 15 Nov 2006 20:28:43 -0500381_us-ascii bs'd

Well, since our community is not into counterfeiting,
the money must be coming from rich relatives, or gracious
community donors, or debt. As for debt, someone is
eventually going to have to pay up. I see lots of
'charity letters' that attest to families not being
able to marry off their children, both in Eretz Yisrael
and in the U.S. [...]41_15Nov200620:28:43-0500bdickman@LUCENT.COM 11082 41 19_Re: finances/emunah14_Mandy Oeschger23_sailorswife@KNOLOGY.NET31_Wed, 15 Nov 2006 19:42:30 -0600940_iso-8859-1 Amien to that! ~Mandy

> Actually, I think it is a lack of emmuna to think Hashem gave me children
> I'm not capable of educating (or finding the necessary resources to do
> so).
>
> michelle
>
> _________________________________________________________________
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> an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/
>
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>
[...]45_15Nov200619:42:30-0600sailorswife@KNOLOGY.NET 11124 49 30_Re: Homeschooling and finances12_Yael Resnick22_njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM31_Wed, 15 Nov 2006 21:14:31 -0500570_us-ascii Nechama Cox wrote:
>I think we are going to be moving back to where we were at the turn
>of the 20th century, where older children worked and earned money
>which they gave to the family. I think this is what may be necessary
>with large families.

Could be.... but an easier idea to "sell" to the kids, is what we and
I'm sure many of you do: have older kids earn money and have them use
their own funds to buy some of their clothes, magazine subscriptions,
the new Chanale CD, etc. Our 12-year-old babysits and saves up for
[...]44_15Nov200621:14:31-0500njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM 11174 115 30_Re: Homeschooling and finances13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Wed, 15 Nov 2006 20:47:07 -0800562_iso-8859-1 Actually, I don't feel that feeding, clothing, and housing a big family is too expensive (though I know that right before Pesach plenty of people would disagree!:)). A family of ten doesn't need a much larger home than a family of 4, there are plenty of ways to get beautiful clothes without paying frum retail store prices, and there are tons of ways to feed a family healthy, filling, and satisfying meals on a very low budget. It's not the basics that are a problem, anyone making 30 - 40,000 can afford a large family if that's all that it's [...]44_15Nov200620:47:07-0800avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 11290 86 58_Emunah, bitachon and a free lunch (was [TORCH-D] finances)18_Benjamin H Dickman19_bdickman@LUCENT.COM31_Wed, 15 Nov 2006 23:38:38 -0500641_us-ascii bs'd

I was taught that emunah (coming from the root aleph-mem-nun)
meant steadfastness (as in: Moshe's arms remained steady until
sunset - Shemoth 17). As in not regressing in one's Torah
and mitzvoth despite trials and adversity.

I was taught that bitachon meant knowing that HaShem runs
the world through Hashgacha Pratith (divine awareness and
providence on the level of each individual). It means
knowing that when you put in all your effort to doing
a mitzvah, HaShem is giving you the strength to do it
and any success you achieved is because of HaShem's making
it happen -- your [...]41_15Nov200623:38:38-0500bdickman@LUCENT.COM 11377 106 30_Re: Homeschooling and finances13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Wed, 15 Nov 2006 21:05:35 -0800531_iso-8859-1 Our kids will also be expected to earn their way, and they already know that and accept it as a given. My kids have asked me for suggestions about good approaches to earning money for when they are older, and this is something I am thinking about (and will be for the next few years, I guess!). I have some ideas about potentially good career paths for my oldest son, a couple of ideas for the next two girls (but girls are harder because I would like them to have something they can do from home and get paid well [...]44_15Nov200621:05:35-0800avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 11484 70 39_community (was [TORCH-D] Homeschooling)18_Benjamin H Dickman19_bdickman@LUCENT.COM31_Wed, 15 Nov 2006 23:55:52 -0500460_us-ascii bs'd

Zoharis,

Even during the Babylonian Galut following the destruction of the
Second Temple, when many Jews lived agrarian lives, they had
Kehillas on their rural level. The highest Torah scholarship
required a city for attaining enough scholars to make it a
functioning yeshiva (mesivta in their language). Hence the
great mesitvtoth were in Nehardea, Sura, Pumbaditha, Peroz-Shavur,
Masa Mechasya, cities all. [...]41_15Nov200623:55:52-0500bdickman@LUCENT.COM 11555 68 31_Re: Homeschooling, homesteading13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Wed, 15 Nov 2006 21:29:01 -0800481_iso-8859-1 For a long time I dreamed about living outside of the frum community, specifically in a place where I would have lots of land and the costs of living would be very low. I love the idea of a lifestyle in which there is no debt (included in that is no mortgage), and living a self-sustaining lifestyle (if there is really such a thing as being self-sustaining), and haven't found a way to achieve it to the degree that I idealized while living in the frum community. [...]44_15Nov200621:29:01-0800avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 11624 368 38_Re: Homeschooling (very long response)14_Laya B Jackson17_tolife18@JUNO.COM31_Thu, 16 Nov 2006 09:06:37 +0200606_us-ascii On Wed, 15 Nov 2006 15:58:05 -0700 Zohari writes:
Funny, this whole discussion has pushed that little button in me that is
ready to chuck the whole "community" life and head back to the sticks.
My husband and I lived in a teepee in rural southwestern Colorado before
we got on the derech. There is such an appeal to being out on your own,
eliminating the peer pressure that comes with city life. We are
steadfast in our homeschooling and primary commitment to our children,
but it gets tiring being so far outside of the box sometimes. When we
[...]39_16Nov200609:06:37+0200tolife18@JUNO.COM 11993 38 17_Re: Homesteading?10_Sarah Kopp17_svkopp@012.NET.IL31_Thu, 16 Nov 2006 08:55:11 +0200629_ISO-8859-1 Zohari wrote:
>
> So please comment on this: what about leaving the kehilla in search of
> a more peaceful and non-materialistic existence?
>
You can homestead in a religious community here in Israel. But I can't
promise your existence will be more peaceful....

Your existence in the teepee was probably more peaceful because you had
very few interactions with other people at all, never mind the
expectations of a kehilla. The Torah exists in large part to instruct us
on the proper way to behave with one another, and from what I've
experienced so far, Hashem will continue [...]39_16Nov200608:55:11+0200svkopp@012.NET.IL 12032 98 31_Re: Homeschooling, homesteading6_Zohari20_najova@EARTHLINK.NET31_Thu, 16 Nov 2006 07:43:31 -0700568_ISO-8859-1 > individuality is valued and an important part of Judaism; we need to embrace
> our uniqueness instead of trying to be like everyone else, or feeling like
> something is wrong because we aren't a stereotypical image. Only by being the
> unique self as we are meant to be can we have a full relationship with H-shem
> and bring completion to the Jewish people as a whole.
>
>
> One of the most powerful things about this list is being comfortable with
> differences while being accepted at the same time. Perhaps this is one of [...]42_16Nov200607:43:31-0700najova@EARTHLINK.NET 12131 105 30_Re: Homeschooling and finances10_Sarah Kopp17_svkopp@012.NET.IL31_Thu, 16 Nov 2006 08:51:12 +0200591_ISO-8859-1 Avivah Werner wrote:
> Actually, I don't feel that feeding, clothing, and housing a big
> family is too expensive
LOL! How many kids do you have?

We live in Israel, where the community expectations in the haredi world
are that men will not work, period. And all kids study in private
schools from the age of 3, never in the gov't subsidized religious
schools. And the parents have to buy the kids an apartment and support
them for the 1st 2 years minimum when they get married. It's totally
insane. A friend of mine confided last week that one [...]39_16Nov200608:51:12+0200svkopp@012.NET.IL 12237 71 38_Re: Homeschooling (very long response)0_21_YiddisheMameh@AOL.COM29_Thu, 16 Nov 2006 08:57:17 EST642_US-ASCII How about the idea of moving to a semi-rural community that has an Orthodox
Jewish presence?

If I knew how to drive and get around other than by bike/walking/mass
transit, that is what we would have done.

Here is one example:

_http://www.ourkehilla.com_ (http://www.ourkehilla.com)

Chana

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by
Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org,
a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and
an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...]41_16Nov200608:57:17ESTYiddisheMameh@AOL.COM 12309 62 13_Re: finances?0_17_RENALEVIN@AOL.COM29_Thu, 16 Nov 2006 09:18:09 EST369_US-ASCII In a message dated 11/16/06 2:01:18 AM Eastern Standard Time,
LISTSERV@SHAMASH.ORG writes:

> Actually, I think it is a lack of emmuna to think Hashem gave me children
> I'm not capable of educating (or finding the necessary resources to do so).
>

wow, Michelle, radical statement, very powerful. needs to be on a bumper
sticker! [...]37_16Nov200609:18:09ESTRENALEVIN@AOL.COM 12372 104 14_Re: financials0_17_RENALEVIN@AOL.COM29_Thu, 16 Nov 2006 09:29:34 EST347_US-ASCII In a message dated 11/16/06 2:01:18 AM Eastern Standard Time,
LISTSERV@SHAMASH.ORG writes:

>
> Could be.... but an easier idea to "sell" to the kids, is what we and
> I'm sure many of you do: have older kids earn money and have them use
> their own funds to buy some of their clothes, magazine subscriptions,
> [...]37_16Nov200609:29:34ESTRENALEVIN@AOL.COM 12477 26 17_Re: Homesteading?6_Zohari20_najova@EARTHLINK.NET31_Thu, 16 Nov 2006 07:37:56 -0700604_US-ASCII >
> I think the Torah approach is to strive to create a peaceful and
> non-materialistic existence in society, not to run away from it.

I totally agree with this statement and have no real intentions of running
away. Just a bit of nostalgia for the past. :)

SZ

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by
Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org,
a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and
an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...]42_16Nov200607:37:56-0700najova@EARTHLINK.NET 12504 63 31_Re: Homeschooling, homesteading18_Benjamin H Dickman19_bdickman@LUCENT.COM31_Thu, 16 Nov 2006 10:22:47 -0500369_UTF-8 bs'd

Zoharis,

It would probably worth your while to find a rabbi that you could
really grow with, even if he is reachable mostly by phone/email.
You might only need to actually spend face time with him in
starting the relationship. Finding the right derekh for your
family is most important, and you need to be continually growing. [...]41_16Nov200610:22:47-0500bdickman@LUCENT.COM 12568 38 44_Re: Telling Children Why (Answer to Rebecca)16_Russell J Hendel17_rjhendel@JUNO.COM31_Thu, 16 Nov 2006 10:17:11 -0500352_us-ascii Rebecca
Even if you dont homeschool you should tell him your concerns. How is a
child suppose to know that other children are mean and rotten. The
children look to you to set standards.

I find it odd that on the one hand the children are mean and on the
other hand your child want to go to school. Why does he want to. [...]39_16Nov200610:17:11-0500rjhendel@JUNO.COM 12607 73 44_Re: Telling Children Why (Answer to Rebecca)14_Rebecca Harper22_hudabecca@RAINMALL.COM31_Thu, 16 Nov 2006 10:17:01 -0700438_utf-8 As I'm forwarding this message to my husband, I thought about things more.
Here is some more thoughts I wrote to my husband:

I think that we should continue to homeschool for many reasons -- children
don't always like what they have to do (like homework!), and sometimes they
don't like school. So, you're going to exempt them from homework, or switch
schools 5 times a year just because they don't like it? [...]44_16Nov200610:17:01-0700hudabecca@RAINMALL.COM 12681 69 44_Re: Telling Children Why (Answer to Rebecca)14_Rebecca Harper22_hudabecca@RAINMALL.COM31_Thu, 16 Nov 2006 10:04:21 -0700326_utf-8 Thank you Russell,

As far as my son wanting to go to school, I think (and stress think, for I'm
not sure, I cannot really get it out of him) it is because he feels he is
missing something. He tells me he knows he will like it. We try to have a
schedule, and he has "real" books and workbooks, etc.. [...]44_16Nov200610:04:21-0700hudabecca@RAINMALL.COM 12751 36 26_homeschooling/homesteading15_Michelle Miller25_michelletamar@HOTMAIL.COM31_Thu, 16 Nov 2006 10:50:57 -0700587_- I have to say I love living in our new (Westminster, CO Chabad) growing
community. We are literally two minutes from trails on open space with
panoramic views of the Rocky Mountains, and less than a 30 minute drive to
several large eruvim. However, other than for a simcha I rarely need to go
there. Since the shluchim arrived only three years ago, it is really
becoming a viable option and several observant families are looking for
homes (and the homes are cheap!). It is exciting to see people growing
leaps and bounds in their Yiddishkeit (including us). [...]47_16Nov200610:50:57-0700michelletamar@HOTMAIL.COM 12788 58 31_Re: Homeschooling, homesteading6_Shayna17_ssheiny@YAHOO.COM31_Thu, 16 Nov 2006 10:56:54 -0800416_iso-8859-1 And how does one find such a Rabbi?

We are currently rabbi-less, to some degree or
another. We have access to several, so when we have a
shilah, we have someone we can call. But how to find
one that you can really grow with?

Kol Tuv,
Shayna afterschooling
Kinneret 7yo
Uri Amitai 4.5yo
Sivan Margalit 5.5m

--- Benjamin H Dickman wrote: [...]39_16Nov200610:56:54-0800ssheiny@YAHOO.COM 12847 60 31_Re: Homeschooling, homesteading13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Thu, 16 Nov 2006 12:13:13 -0800523_iso-8859-1 Make your home your refuge, and look for connection with like minded people online.

Avivah

Zohari wrote:
individuality is valued and an important part of Judaism; we need to embrace our uniqueness instead of trying to be like everyone else, or feeling like something is wrong because we aren't a stereotypical image. Only by being the unique self as we are meant to be can we have a full relationship with H-shem and bring completion to the Jewish people as a whole. [...]44_16Nov200612:13:13-0800avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 12908 161 30_Re: Homeschooling and finances13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Thu, 16 Nov 2006 14:26:43 -0800564_iso-8859-1 >> Actually, I don't feel that feeding, clothing, and housing a big
>> family is too expensive

>LOL! How many kids do you have?

Just seven for now. And lest you think I'm saying it's easy to live on a low budget, I'm not. I'm saying providing the necessities for kids (except tuition) are well within the means of the average middle class family, it is very possible. I have a lot of experience in this area both in the US and Israel and wasn't spouting off the top of my head. People define necessities differently, but I am very [...]44_16Nov200614:26:43-0800avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 13070 156 30_Re: Homeschooling and finances0_27_billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET31_Thu, 16 Nov 2006 18:46:20 -0500553_ISO-8859-1 This has been an interesting (to me) conversation and one that particularly irks me. It irks me for several reasons.
1) The common mindset of "learning is good, working is bad" goes against so many maamarei chazal and so many comments I have seen that I am at a loss to explain it. There is a positive good in working. Not to support a family, not to give tzeddaka, not to buy tashmishei mitzva (e.g. lulav and esrog, matzo etc). No, working in and of itself is good.
2) The alternative to work seems to be sponging. Whether it is [...]49_16Nov200618:46:20-0500billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET 13227 112 22_"Sitting and learning"0_21_YiddisheMameh@AOL.COM29_Thu, 16 Nov 2006 18:37:26 EST499_US-ASCII When I was growing up (nominally Orthodox community), there were no young
men who did this. We were a poor working class Jewish community, my parents are
second generation Americans (I'm probably older than some of you.)

Anyway, when I returned to the religious life, I heard of this phenomenon,
which admittedly WAS done in the Old Country (Russia, Poland, etc) in my
grandparents and great grandparents day. But that created a problem that few seem
to address. [...]41_16Nov200618:37:26ESTYiddisheMameh@AOL.COM 13340 72 30_Re: Homeschooling and finances10_Larry Beck19_larry@BECKFORCE.COM31_Thu, 16 Nov 2006 19:21:41 -0500559_US-ASCII Bill,

I agree with you completely. The Mishalachhim show up at my door all the
time. If we all sat and learned who would they collect from?

So, is the housing that low in Nashville or did your parents buy you the
house when you were a child?

Larry

-----Original Message-----
From: Torah-Centered Homeschooling [mailto:TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG] On Behalf Of
billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET
Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2006 6:46 PM
To: TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG
Subject: Re: [TORCH-D] Homeschooling and finances [...]41_16Nov200619:21:41-0500larry@BECKFORCE.COM 13413 54 31_Re: Homeschooling, homesteading10_Larry Beck19_larry@BECKFORCE.COM31_Thu, 16 Nov 2006 19:50:31 -0500551_US-ASCII Shayna,

Its very hard. I originally had a real "Rav" when I started to learn. And
while I have a number of Rabbis I now learn with, I have not been able to
find someone that has the depth, Derech, Veltanshan (World view) I would
like. There are a lot of men that have a basic level of knowledge so we call
them Rabbis. There are many of them that have learned extra and have gone
through many more Gemorahs. But very few of them can apply it to the "real"
world such that their academic learning has turned into [...]41_16Nov200619:50:31-0500larry@BECKFORCE.COM 13468 60 30_Re: Homeschooling and finances10_Sarah Kopp17_svkopp@012.NET.IL31_Fri, 17 Nov 2006 09:36:04 +0200582_ISO-8859-1 Avivah Werner wrote:
> While he was in kollel and I was home full time with the kids, we
> managed to live without going into any debt or living on overdraft.
> Not because anyone was sending us money or supporting us; they
> didn't. I certainly wasn't getting boxes of food to live on. We
> lived /very/ frugally
I'm sorry, but I find this hard to believe. The average kollel stipend
today is 1,500 shekels (about $350). NII supplemental income checks for
the poor bridge the gap between the family's income and 3,500 shekels -
no matter [...]39_17Nov200609:36:04+0200svkopp@012.NET.IL 13529 40 26_Re: "Sitting and learning"10_Sarah Kopp17_svkopp@012.NET.IL31_Fri, 17 Nov 2006 09:51:29 +0200558_ISO-8859-1 It appears that the main reason that "learning only" became so ingrained
in the haredi communities in Israel is because of the mandatory army
service. Religious Jews in Israel fear the army service because the
nature of those mandatory years is extremely immodest - the 18, 19 and
20 year old girl and boy soldiers serve side by side, there is a lot of
busy work and down time, and lots and lots of "intimate activity." In
fact, one of the slang terms for the army among secular Jews in Israel
is "the State Whorehouse." [...]39_17Nov200609:51:29+0200svkopp@012.NET.IL 13570 242 40_Re: Homeschooling and finances, tzedakah14_Laya B Jackson17_tolife18@JUNO.COM31_Fri, 17 Nov 2006 10:02:18 +0200571_us-ascii Here's the voice of dissent.

Although I don't disagree with some of the things that are being said on
one hand, I'm feeling pretty squeamish with this thread of conversation.
Here's why:

None of us is in a position to judge another of us. That's the basics
and we all know that. If you've had the benefit of someone teaching you
the value of work, you're in a different position than those who have not
been taught. An example I got from a rebbetzin once was when she shared
about talking to a boy who was really good at ice [...]39_17Nov200610:02:18+0200tolife18@JUNO.COM 13813 194 30_Re: Homeschooling and finances14_Laya B Jackson17_tolife18@JUNO.COM31_Fri, 17 Nov 2006 10:39:09 +0200538_us-ascii Aviva, you're a great writer. Have you considered writing a simple guide
book for people about how to manage their money, simple, frugal menu
planner, etc? I know there's a lot of stuff out there, but maybe not for
the frum community. Whaddaya think?

a long time admirerer :-),
Laya
mom to Yermiah and Avital

On Thu, 16 Nov 2006 14:26:43 -0800 Avivah Werner
writes:
>> Actually, I don't feel that feeding, clothing, and housing a big
>> family is too expensive [...]39_17Nov200610:39:09+0200tolife18@JUNO.COM 14008 199 30_Re: Homeschooling and finances14_Rebecca Harper22_hudabecca@RAINMALL.COM31_Fri, 17 Nov 2006 06:07:53 -0700551_utf-8 Pirchei Avos (Ethics of the Fathers) states that a man should have a job,
and learn Torah (it says that in that order too). A man should make sure he
has money coming in to pay his bills/necessities AND also learn Torah. He
needs both. My grandfather and I had this discussion many years ago, and
felt that only a small percentage of the population should learn Torah all
the time. The amount of work one has to do and the amount of Torah one
learns varies from person to person, but the point is the one has to work!
[...]44_17Nov200606:07:53-0700hudabecca@RAINMALL.COM 14208 135 31_Judging and "Yitzi the Trucker"14_Bill Bernstein27_billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET31_Fri, 17 Nov 2006 09:11:58 -0600559_ISO-8859-1 I've often heard the adage about judging. I reject it in this context.
Pirkey Avos asks, "what is the path that a person should go on?" We are
encouraged to look at what people around us are doing and make
judgements on those paths. That is distinct from judging the people
doing them.
I'll mention an example sort of like this (and I thought it would be a
great children's book).
Our shul has a character who has come by every now and then, Yitzi the
trucker. He is in fact an over the road truck driver and when near [...]49_17Nov200609:11:58-0600billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET 14344 156 38_Re: Homeschooling and finances/grocery14_Mandy Oeschger23_sailorswife@KNOLOGY.NET31_Fri, 17 Nov 2006 13:04:29 -0600566_iso-8859-1 Dear Avivah,

What do you do about the grocery bill? It's our biggest expense, more than mortgage!! I just don't know how to lower it signifigantly, we eat a lot of fresh produce and usually only eat meat on Shabbat. Thanks for you imput. Have a wonderful Shabbat.

~Mandy

By the way, I don't have any problem with large sales of clothing or shoes that are sold at a discounted price. Why do you see that as negative? Those clothes that weren't sold at the end of the season are better sold at a discounted rate to people who will [...]45_17Nov200613:04:29-0600sailorswife@KNOLOGY.NET 14501 25 8_davening16_Brenda Goldstein19_lioness31@CA.RR.COM31_Sat, 18 Nov 2006 17:52:10 -0800410_us-ascii I know that, in school, boys daven with their rebbis and the rest of
their class. I assume that, if a homeschooled boy learns with a
tutor-rebbi, that he learns the brachos for davening from that rebbi (am
I right?). But, then, does the boy daven with his mom (and/or possible
other siblings), if she's the only parent that's home during Shacharis
and Mincha?
Thanks,
Brenda [...]41_18Nov200617:52:10-0800lioness31@CA.RR.COM 14527 48 18_importance of play14_Laya B Jackson17_tolife18@JUNO.COM31_Sun, 19 Nov 2006 10:06:36 +0200563_windows-1255 I know there's been a lot of discussion on and off about how soon to
begin academic work in young children. Lots of experienced parents on
this list have encouraged lightening up on the actual work book type
material given to younger kids. I'm teaching a class in 'human growth
and development' and one of the pieces that is up in the course is work
vs. play. Work and play can have the same actions, but work has a goal,
a material outcome, and play is rewarding in and of itself. The bottom
line of what I wanted to share [...]39_19Nov200610:06:36+0200tolife18@JUNO.COM 14576 107 38_homeschooling, finances, and frugality13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Sun, 19 Nov 2006 06:19:52 -0800614_iso-8859-1 YAHOO.Shortcuts.hasSensitiveText = true; YAHOO.Shortcuts.doUlt = false; YAHOO.Shortcuts.location = "us"; YAHOO.Shortcuts.lang = "us"; YAHOO.Shortcuts.annotationSet = { lw_1163945528_0: { text: 'tolife18@JUNO.COM', weight: 1, type: ['shortcuts:/us/instance/identifier/email_address']} }; YAHOO.Shortcuts.overlaySpaceId = "97546169"; YAHOO.Shortcuts.hostSpaceId = "97546168"; I sent this out a half hour before Shabbos, and it shows in my sent file, but not onlist, so I am resending. If for some reason both versions end up showing up later on, my apologies to the list.
************************ [...]44_19Nov200606:19:52-0800avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 14684 68 12_Re: davening13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Sun, 19 Nov 2006 06:26:57 -0800516_iso-8859-1 How old is your son?

I think it will very much depend on the age of your child. My 7 yo davens at home, shacharis only. My 13 yr. old goes to minyan, with my dh if he's home, but usually on his own. The 4 yo follows along with whoever is davening at home (ie, older siblings). In the three years that my older son has learned with an outside rebbi, davening or learning any davening was never part of that, but then again, he was in 5th grade when we first started with a rebbi, so he davened [...]44_19Nov200606:26:57-0800avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 14753 112 22_Re: importance of play14_Malkie Swidler18_malkie18@GMAIL.COM31_Sun, 19 Nov 2006 16:37:38 +0200431_ISO-8859-1 I suspect that a lot of the drive to introduce academics to little children
comes from the mistake that if early is good, earlier is better. I also
suspect that for homeschooling parents, it has a lot to do with insecurity.
If we can measure outcomes (worksheets, tests, books read and comprehension
questions answered), we know we are doing a "good job". On the other hand,
how do you measure play? [...]40_19Nov200616:37:38+0200malkie18@GMAIL.COM 14866 38 9_frugality15_Michelle Miller25_michelletamar@HOTMAIL.COM31_Sun, 19 Nov 2006 08:43:00 -0700423_- Some good books on living within your means are anything by Dave Ramsey or
The Frugal Zealot by Amy Dacyczyn. Until I started keeping a written
budget, down to the dollar of what I spent, I couldn't control my money. I
spend it on paper prior to the beginning of the month (as opposed to writing
as I spend, which doesn't work for me). Each category is carefully
considered. Every month is different. [...]47_19Nov200608:43:00-0700michelletamar@HOTMAIL.COM 14905 163 12_Re: davening16_Brenda Goldstein19_lioness31@CA.RR.COM31_Sun, 19 Nov 2006 09:11:37 -0800534_us-ascii He's not even four yet, so I'm thinking about the future. Thanks for
your response!

Avivah Werner wrote:

> How old is your son?
>
> I think it will very much depend on the age of your child. My 7 yo
> davens at home, shacharis only. My 13 yr. old goes to minyan, with my
> dh if he's home, but usually on his own. The 4 yo follows along with
> whoever is davening at home (ie, older siblings). In the three years
> that my older son has learned with an outside rebbi, davening or
> [...]41_19Nov200609:11:37-0800lioness31@CA.RR.COM 15069 136 31_Re: Homeschooling, homesteading14_Malkie Swidler18_malkie18@GMAIL.COM31_Mon, 20 Nov 2006 11:42:15 +0200767_ISO-8859-1 Avivah--

There's a new attachment parenting forum for Jewish families.

http://z11.invisionfree.com/JewishAP/index.php?http://s11.invisionfree.com/JewishAP/

There's even a homeschooling section. So if you are looking on-line for a
community, here's one you can even shape. (Right now the forum is set to let
people in with permission, in an attempt to keep out trolls and spammers).

HTH,

Malkie

On 11/16/06, Avivah Werner wrote:
>
> Make your home your refuge, and look for connection with like minded
> people online.
>
> Avivah
>
> *Zohari * wrote:
>
> *individuality is valued and an important part of Judaism; we need to
> [...]40_20Nov200611:42:15+0200malkie18@GMAIL.COM 15206 27 13_math websites30_=?iso-8859-1?Q?Avivah_Werner?=22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Tue, 21 Nov 2006 11:07:29 -0500611_iso-8859-1 Louise,

I was going through these past posts today to try one out, and couldn't
find the site you referred to (www.*nrich*.maths.org. Are the asterisks
supposed to be in the address, and if they are, do you need to register to
use this domain?

Thanks,

Avivah

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by
Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org,
a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and
an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...]44_21Nov200611:07:29-0500avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 15234 54 17_Re: math websites18_Benjamin H Dickman19_bdickman@LUCENT.COM31_Tue, 21 Nov 2006 11:28:15 -0500416_us-ascii bs'd

I went to www.maths.org and saw a link to nrich.maths.org
which brought me to:
http://nrich.maths.org/public/index.php

My guess is that Louise put the asterisks in to show that
nrich was indeed the correct spelling, as opposed to enrich.

I'm grateful for this pointer, since I'm trying to teach
my kids some basic music theory, and this material looks
perfect! [...]41_21Nov200611:28:15-0500bdickman@LUCENT.COM 15289 139 42_Re: homeschooling, finances, and frugality2_JW22_lilt2005@OPTONLINE.NET31_Tue, 21 Nov 2006 12:24:38 -0500532_us-ascii Hello group l don't post too much but l have been following this thread :-)

Let me mention that my dear husband and l are on a new debt free plan for
the past year, where we are staying consistent on paying down everything,
and l mean everything, that we owe. Since in recent months my husband's
biggest client unfortunately ceased business operations, our business has
also not reached the funds we had been used to --> meaning our debt free
plan has really come at the right time for the good! [...]44_21Nov200612:24:38-0500lilt2005@OPTONLINE.NET 15429 51 17_Re: math websites14_Hadas laureano20_hadasl@SBCGLOBAL.NET31_Tue, 21 Nov 2006 09:27:14 -0800683_iso-8859-1 Could you please pass on any free websites that i
could do with my 10 year old daughter for math and
english and anything else wonderful for a 5th
grader??????thank you...Hadas

--- Avivah Werner wrote:

> Louise,
>
> I was going through these past posts today to try
> one out, and couldn't
> find the site you referred to
> (www.*nrich*.maths.org. Are the asterisks
> supposed to be in the address, and if they are, do
> you need to register to
> use this domain?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Avivah
>
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
> The [...]42_21Nov200609:27:14-0800hadasl@SBCGLOBAL.NET 15481 207 40_Re: Homeschooling and finances, tzedakah2_JW22_lilt2005@OPTONLINE.NET31_Tue, 21 Nov 2006 13:03:58 -0500583_us-ascii l know l said l don't post much but l guess this topic is hitting home for
us since we are downsizing everything as we speak due to financial
pressures. (l mean everything LOL)
Right now we live in a large community where it is very normal for people to
work as collectors of tzedakah for their livelihood. As an often homebound
housewife of little children, l find it convenient to have collectors ring
my doorbell and ask for tzedaka- l have a little saying "l don't have to
*give* tzedaka because here they just come and *take*
it."
There [...]44_21Nov200613:03:58-0500lilt2005@OPTONLINE.NET 15689 102 17_Re: math websites10_Louise Fox20_fox.louise@GMAIL.COM31_Tue, 21 Nov 2006 20:02:14 +0200656_ISO-8859-1 Since Benzion second-guessed me, maybe I shouldn't even bother replying :-)
I don't recall putting in asterisks, but they certainly don't belong in the
url.
Enjoy the maths!
Louise

On 11/21/06, Benjamin H Dickman wrote:
>
> bs'd
>
> I went to www.maths.org and saw a link to nrich.maths.org
> which brought me to:
> http://nrich.maths.org/public/index.php
>
> My guess is that Louise put the asterisks in to show that
> nrich was indeed the correct spelling, as opposed to enrich.
>
> I'm grateful for this pointer, since I'm trying to teach
> my kids some basic [...]42_21Nov200620:02:14+0200fox.louise@GMAIL.COM 15792 46 43_Re: community (was [TORCH-D] Homeschooling)14_Jennifer Moran20_jrmoran@UCHICAGO.EDU31_Tue, 21 Nov 2006 11:28:03 -0600437_us-ascii Benzion Dickman wrote:
>Try to find a Kehilla that's peaceful for you, but that will
>give you opportunities for spiritual community. Jews are
>essentially a community. You can benefit from what the
>community has to offer, and you can offer the community
>what will benefit it.

Yes, I think there are many small, not-so-upscale communities
where the social expectations wouldn't be so oppressive. [...]42_21Nov200611:28:03-0600jrmoran@UCHICAGO.EDU 15839 26 37_Look a this Website, and buy the book16_Brenda Goldstein19_lioness31@CA.RR.COM31_Tue, 21 Nov 2006 11:49:32 -0800692_us-ascii Check out this Website: http://www.thecalltobrilliance.com/

She discusses the optimal ways to draw out the natural brilliance in our
children, and includes an extensive section on homeschooling. I just
finished it (I was able to purchase a copy before it's scheduled
release, I think in January), and I can't recommend it enough.

Kol Tuv,
Brenda

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by
Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org,
a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and
an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...]41_21Nov200611:49:32-0800lioness31@CA.RR.COM 15866 58 27_teaching respect for items?7_Mrs. S.17_ssheiny@YAHOO.COM31_Tue, 21 Nov 2006 11:39:01 -0800559_iso-8859-1 I am hoping you all have some advice on the matter.
My 7 year old DD is having a hard time respecting
things - her own or others. This certainly does not
derive from the way we treat items - we treat things
carefully, put them away, etc. Kinneret just doesn't.
She'll toss things on the floor and leave them there,
borrow things from her friends and not take care of
them (to the point where they might get ruined!), not
help pick up what she plays with, etc. Generally
speaking she is a good girl, I do not believe [...]39_21Nov200611:39:01-0800ssheiny@YAHOO.COM 15925 35 13_Re: community14_Jennifer Moran20_jrmoran@UCHICAGO.EDU31_Tue, 21 Nov 2006 13:35:07 -0600599_us-ascii >HaShem gave you a brain, so why not use it?

After I hit the send button, I realized that this line might
be interpreted in ways I did not mean. For the record, I was
*not* meaning to imply that people with financial problems are
not using their brains. (Or that people who make different
life choices than I do are not using their brains.) I was
specifically referring to the issue of how one defines emunah
or bitachon. IMHO, to deliberately make short-sighted choices
(or encourage others to do the same) when one has
alternatives, and then to expect [...]42_21Nov200613:35:07-0600jrmoran@UCHICAGO.EDU 15961 33 17_respect for items15_Michelle Miller25_michelletamar@HOTMAIL.COM31_Wed, 22 Nov 2006 08:22:21 -0700367_- We had this issue with my 8 year old daughter until a very neat, meticulous
friend came over and cleaned her room for her:) We also just spent Shabbes
with them. Her little friend actually stripped her bed and remade it! What
a change has come over her. She not only made her own bed yesterday, but
her brother's too. We're just hoping it sticks:) [...]47_22Nov200608:22:21-0700michelletamar@HOTMAIL.COM 15995 65 43_Re: community and ideas for getting dressed14_Laya B Jackson17_tolife18@JUNO.COM31_Tue, 21 Nov 2006 22:06:48 +0200508_us-ascii For those of you who are more abitious or who like to sew, you can also
check out
http://www.sewmodestclothing.com/ for sewing project ideas and reviews of
tzanuah patterns etc. There are also a couple of free patterns there too
(like a pattern for a snood).

Chodesh tov,
Laya

Author of the best loved self help book for teens
"You Don't Have to Learn Everything the Hard Way"
www.AuntLaya.com
http://tinyurl.com/92up5
http://www.auntlaya.blogspot.com/ [...]39_21Nov200622:06:48+0200tolife18@JUNO.COM 16061 111 13_Re: frugality14_Jennifer Moran20_jrmoran@UCHICAGO.EDU31_Tue, 21 Nov 2006 14:31:57 -0600516_UTF-8 Thanks for Michelle's and Avivah's good tips and sugestions,
and I agree wholeheartedly that making a study of the art and
science of thrift is a most liberating undertaking. It has
given us tremendous freedom and value in our lives.

I second Michelle's recommendation of Amy Dacyczyn's Tightwad
Gazette books. Of course not everything in the books will
apply to frummie life. But the point is to learn how to
examine costs and think creatively, in order to get maximum
value. [...]42_21Nov200614:31:57-0600jrmoran@UCHICAGO.EDU 16173 640 30_[QUAR] Re: [TORCH-D] frugality9_chananyah22_chananyah@TELKOMSA.NET31_Tue, 21 Nov 2006 23:54:12 +0200540_iso-8859-1 It is so easy to give money out but I wonder, in this time rush era where we
live in, do people still have time to enjoy making things and to work for
things they can see. We have a self sufficient lifestyle. It is very hard
work, but we live from the land most of the time. We have our own Jersey
cow, chickens and vegetables.We make our own cheese, butter, ice cream,
yogurt. The children love making stuff and we try to think twice before we
just buy something. We always think what do we have and what [...]44_21Nov200623:54:12+0200chananyah@TELKOMSA.NET 16814 115 43_Re: community and ideas for getting dressed14_Malkie Swidler18_malkie18@GMAIL.COM31_Thu, 23 Nov 2006 20:17:12 +0200604_ISO-8859-1 You can also contact me off-list for information on how to alter a sewing
pattern for modesty. It's easy!

Malkie

On 11/21/06, Laya B Jackson wrote:
>
> For those of you who are more abitious or who like to sew, you can also
> check out
> http://www.sewmodestclothing.com/ for sewing project ideas and reviews of
> tzanuah patterns etc. There are also a couple of free patterns there too
> (like a pattern for a snood).
>
> Chodesh tov,
> Laya
>
> Author of the best loved self help book for teens
> "You Don't Have [...]40_23Nov200620:17:12+0200malkie18@GMAIL.COM 16930 40 34_Re: [QUAR] Re: [TORCH-D] frugality10_Sarah Kopp17_svkopp@012.NET.IL31_Fri, 24 Nov 2006 08:24:25 +0200629_ISO-8859-1 chananyah wrote:
> Does anybody know of places in Israel where there are homeschoolers
> and people having a self-sufficient lifestyle or a similar mindset?
>
>
Kadita, on the road between Meron and Tsfat is one such community, Klil
near Ein Yaakov is another. There are a number of yishuvim in the
Shomron and Negev too...but environmental awareness is not high here so
the flavor of the communities is very different - well, Israeli - and
and many of these communities are "illegal" which means getting hassled
by the government all the time. Land in Israel is either unobtainable [...]39_24Nov200608:24:25+0200svkopp@012.NET.IL 16971 98 34_Re: [QUAR] Re: [TORCH-D] frugality14_Malkie Swidler18_malkie18@GMAIL.COM31_Sat, 25 Nov 2006 18:00:29 +0200352_ISO-8859-1 You'd be amazed as to how many Israeli homeschoolers would be interested.
We, however, are probably going to be moving back to the city pretty soon.
Moshav life has been fun, but we miss our friends. And dh and ds both relate
to the world as "technology" and "not technology". Land (animals, etc) is
"not technology". Sigh. [...]40_25Nov200618:00:29+0200malkie18@GMAIL.COM 17070 481 51_[QUAR] Re: [TORCH-D] [QUAR] Re: [TORCH-D] frugality9_chananyah22_chananyah@TELKOMSA.NET31_Sun, 26 Nov 2006 09:22:20 +0200368_ISO-8859-1 Malkie wrote>
You'd be amazed as to how many Israeli homeschoolers would be interested.
We, however, are probably going to be moving back to the city pretty soon.
Moshav life has been fun, but we miss our friends. And dh and ds both relate
to the world as "technology" and "not technology". Land (animals, etc) is
not technology". Sigh. [...]44_26Nov200609:22:20+0200chananyah@TELKOMSA.NET 17552 99 10_Math books14_Laya B Jackson17_tolife18@JUNO.COM31_Sun, 26 Nov 2006 22:38:08 +0200419_us-ascii Hi all,
Has anyone heard of these books or better yet used either of them? I'd
love a book to make numbers more fun and "tricky" and these look good
from what I can tell. I'd love feedback about these or other books
people love. My kids have been using Singapore Math and we're very happy
with that too but I'd love to spice things up as well as help them learn
their math facts better. [...]39_26Nov200622:38:08+0200tolife18@JUNO.COM 17652 57 13_Re: frugality14_Rebecca Harper22_hudabecca@RAINMALL.COM31_Mon, 27 Nov 2006 10:08:22 -0700624_utf-8 I'll come! :) Always thought (though never physically been on one) that a
kibbutz sort of life (with small variations) would be great!

-Rivkah

Sarah Kopp writes:

> chananyah wrote:
>> Does anybody know of places in Israel where there are homeschoolers and
>> people having a self-sufficient lifestyle or a similar mindset?
>>
>>
> Kadita, on the road between Meron and Tsfat is one such community, Klil
> near Ein Yaakov is another. There are a number of yishuvim in the Shomron
> and Negev too...but environmental awareness is not high here so the flavor
> of the [...]44_27Nov200610:08:22-0700hudabecca@RAINMALL.COM 17710 64 39_OT: Florida Passover Information Needed13_Barbara Mazor19_barbmazor@YAHOO.COM31_Mon, 27 Nov 2006 18:34:56 -0800446_iso-8859-1 Hi -

My parents live in Delray Beach, Florida, and we are in Brooklyn, NY. I am hoping to spend Passover near them and I am looking for information on accomodations near (within 1.5 mi.) from Orthodox synagogues in either Boynton Beach, Delray Beach, or Boca Raton.

If anyone has leads on Motels/Hotels in good locations or information of caterers/take-out foods for Passover, please get in touch with me, off list. [...]41_27Nov200618:34:56-0800barbmazor@YAHOO.COM 17775 57 24_OT: Kosher Home Exchange13_Barbara Mazor19_barbmazor@YAHOO.COM31_Mon, 27 Nov 2006 18:33:02 -0800632_iso-8859-1 Well maybe it isn't so off-topic if we are talking about frugality...

I just came across this new group and thought I would share it for anyone who might be interested.

It is for anyone with a kosher home that they would like to exchange for a vacation.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/kosherhomeexchange/

Barbara

5 months and 2 days since the kidnapping of Gilad Shalit (6/25/06)
4 months and 15 days since the kidnapping of
Ehud Goldwasser and Eldad Regev (7/12/06)
1 month and 5 days since the kidnapping of an unnamed
US Army Officer translator in Baghdad (10/23/06) [...]41_27Nov200618:33:02-0800barbmazor@YAHOO.COM 17833 77 34_Re: [QUAR] Re: [TORCH-D] frugality10_Louise Fox20_fox.louise@GMAIL.COM31_Fri, 24 Nov 2006 00:48:03 +0200331_ISO-8859-1 Dear Lilah,

What you describe is definitely possible in Israel. I can think of one
homeschooling family that is now in the process of moving to a moshav
towards the south of the country, where they will have lots of land (around
20 acres - and very cheaply!) and be able to farm whatever they like. [...]42_24Nov200600:48:03+0200fox.louise@GMAIL.COM 17911 81 36_was frugality, now saving when young13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Mon, 27 Nov 2006 19:15:16 -0800615_iso-8859-1 <The critical time for saving money is the years before one has
children. If one spends 1-3 years in early adulthood (which
could mean 18-20 years old in some communities) working
and earning as much as possible, while living as cheaply as
possible, it will provide a cushion that makes life easier and
less expensive from then on. (less expensive because one
avoids interest payments, can buy in bulk, etc.) Instead, this
opportunity is usually missed. In the secular world, young
people "live it up" for a [...]44_27Nov200619:15:16-0800avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 17993 138 15_OT: Job opening16_ZagorskyGoldberg28_zagorskygoldberg@VERIZON.NET31_Mon, 27 Nov 2006 22:33:43 -0500491_iso-8859-1 Hello TORCH families,

My shul has a job opening for an executive director, and it would be lovely if our new ED is someone whose family homeschools. This also fits in with some of the recent conversations on here about moving/communities/living more frugally (I don't actually think it is possible to live truly frugally in the Boston metro area, but, if one *is* so inclined as to move to Boston, coming to Malden is one of the most cost-conscious ways of doing so). [...]50_27Nov200622:33:43-0500zagorskygoldberg@VERIZON.NET 18132 52 40_Re: was frugality, now saving when young14_Jennifer Moran20_jrmoran@UCHICAGO.EDU31_Tue, 28 Nov 2006 12:00:50 -0600351_us-ascii Avivah wrote:
> As far as young people living it up, they may not
> imitate their secular counterparts by copying what
> they see on tv, but what I do see is many young
> couples feeling it is their due to have a lifestyle
> right after marriage that is just like their parents
> have after 25 or 30 years of marriage. [...]42_28Nov200612:00:50-0600jrmoran@UCHICAGO.EDU 18185 44 31_Re: teaching respect for items?14_Jennifer Moran20_jrmoran@UCHICAGO.EDU31_Tue, 28 Nov 2006 12:58:00 -0600400_us-ascii Shayna wrote:
>My 7 year old DD is having a hard time respecting
>things - her own or others. [...]
>We've done quite a bit to try and teach her that these
>things are important, even to the point of taking away
>toys that she doesn't put away. Instead of caring,
>she will simply put away the few toys she claims she
>wants to keep, and let us clear out the rest. [...]42_28Nov200612:58:00-0600jrmoran@UCHICAGO.EDU 18230 40 40_Re: was frugality, now saving when young14_Jennifer Moran20_jrmoran@UCHICAGO.EDU31_Tue, 28 Nov 2006 13:49:34 -0600586_us-ascii Avivah wrote:
> Anyway, I think helping a kid
> fund an IRA early frees them to then save money for
> the shorter term expenses.

This is great advice.

Just one issue to think about if your child is college-bound:
money saved in their name (i.e. an IRA in their name rather
than yours) will be counted dollar-for-dollar against their
financial aid award. Money in the parent's name is not counted
as heavily. (I think it's counted as 1/4 of its value -- does
anyone know off hand?) And money in a parent's IRA may not be
counted at [...]42_28Nov200613:49:34-0600jrmoran@UCHICAGO.EDU 18271 65 40_Re: was frugality, now saving when young18_Benjamin H Dickman19_bdickman@LUCENT.COM31_Tue, 28 Nov 2006 15:32:05 -0500631_us-ascii An excellent thread!
Am I correct that the current limit for IRA annual
contribution is $4000 or the amount earned, whichever
is less?

For kids who earn more annually in self-employment,
looking into SEP plans, which allow much more in
contribution ($44,000). I know the HS kids are
capable of amazing things. :-)

Benzion Dickman

On 11/28/2006 2:49 PM, Jennifer Moran wrote:
> Avivah wrote:
>
>> Anyway, I think helping a kid
>> fund an IRA early frees them to then save money for
>> the shorter term expenses.
>
>
> This is great advice.
>
> Just [...]41_28Nov200615:32:05-0500bdickman@LUCENT.COM 18337 31 40_Re: was frugality, now saving when young6_suelap20_suelap@EARTHLINK.NET31_Tue, 28 Nov 2006 12:35:33 -0800607_US-ASCII >>>Just one issue to think about if your child is college-bound:
money saved in their name (i.e. an IRA in their name rather
than yours) will be counted dollar-for-dollar against their
financial aid award. <<<<

This is a really important point. We found out that since our daughters
worked and had saved money, they were penalized when it came to college
financial aid. Their friends who spent the summers hanging out and playing
were rewarded for not having worked and saved money. The system is not set
up to encourage the things we as parents want to encourage. [...]42_28Nov200612:35:33-0800suelap@EARTHLINK.NET 18369 94 41_Re: respect for items/yard sale schooling14_Laya B Jackson17_tolife18@JUNO.COM31_Wed, 29 Nov 2006 03:23:03 +0200505_us-ascii One of my kids had that idea for a while. I just said, no problem, here
a bag for you to put what you don't want and we'll pass them along so the
next kid can play with them. Sometimes that worked and we had a bag of
giveaway toys. Sometimes I said, no problem, I fee for picking up after
you is 10 cents or a quarter (what ever is a meaningful amount for you
child at his/her age). This ususally did the trick. We had way too many
toys for a long time since we used to go [...]39_29Nov200603:23:03+0200tolife18@JUNO.COM 18464 371 43_Re: OT: Florida Passover Information Needed15_Shoshana Sloman18_ssloman@NETLAB.COM31_Thu, 30 Nov 2006 07:44:39 -0500558_us-ascii > All of their teaches love them, and are so impressed by how respectful
they are and how interested they are in learning! So I must have done
something right!!

Yes, Barbara, it sounds like you gave them the important foundation for a
meaningful and successful life!

-Shoshi

_____

From: Torah-Centered Homeschooling [mailto:TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG] On Behalf Of
Barbara Mazor
Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 9:35 PM
To: TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG
Subject: [TORCH-D] OT: Florida Passover Information Needed [...]40_30Nov200607:44:39-0500ssloman@NETLAB.COM 18836 77 23_Talmidei Chochim (ours)10_Sarah Kopp17_svkopp@012.NET.IL31_Thu, 30 Nov 2006 15:31:00 +0200586_ISO-8859-1 Shalom,

I am still debating the issue of homeschooling with my husband. We have
8 children - 3 teenagers who have dropped out of the yeshiva and are
doing their own thing (all still mitzvah observant, thank G-d) and an 11
yr boy, 9 yr girl, 7 yr boy and 4 yr boy. Now, my main interest in
homeschooling is preventing Torah burn out, together with enabling my
children with the the self-confidence and self-esteem to find their
niche in the world according to their own abilities and interests. These
are the 2 big failures I have seen in the [...]39_30Nov200615:31:00+0200svkopp@012.NET.IL 18914 52 40_Re: was frugality, now saving when young14_Jennifer Moran20_jrmoran@UCHICAGO.EDU31_Thu, 30 Nov 2006 11:44:30 -0600754_us-ascii I'm obviously not qualified to be giving investment advice,
but if you're interested in learning more about the subject of
saving for college, this table is a great place to start:

http://www.tiaa-cref.org/support/education/tools/compare.html

Be well,
Jennifer

---- Original message ----
>Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 12:35:33 -0800
>From: suelap
>Subject: Re: [TORCH-D] was frugality, now saving when young
>To: TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG
>
>>>>Just one issue to think about if your child is
college-bound: money saved in their name (i.e. an IRA in their
name rather than yours) will be counted dollar-for-dollar
against their financial aid award. <<<<
>
>This is a [...]42_30Nov200611:44:30-0600jrmoran@UCHICAGO.EDU 18967 38 27_Re: Talmidei Chochim (ours)14_Jennifer Moran20_jrmoran@UCHICAGO.EDU31_Thu, 30 Nov 2006 11:38:43 -0600342_us-ascii Sarah wrote:
>When I ask him [DH] what he wants for his sons,
>he says he wants them to be Talmidei chochamim.
>He believes that only in a Torah institution will they get
>the skills necessary to learn a daf Gemorrah, and if they
>don't want to learn that's just their yetzer hara that they
>have to overcome. [...]42_30Nov200611:38:43-0600jrmoran@UCHICAGO.EDU 19006 72 27_Great kids' science website6_Zohari20_najova@EARTHLINK.NET31_Wed, 29 Nov 2006 20:29:37 -0700605_US-ASCII For those whose children are using the internet, my son made this great
discovery tonight:

http://www.pbs.org/wonders/Kids/kids.htm

It is called Dragonfly TV and features lots of great on-line science fun.
Check it out!

Shoshana Zohari
From snowy Denver!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by
Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org,
a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and
an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...]42_29Nov200620:29:37-0700najova@EARTHLINK.NET 19079 36 27_Re: Talmidei Chochim (ours)14_Jennifer Moran20_jrmoran@UCHICAGO.EDU31_Thu, 30 Nov 2006 13:00:06 -0600534_us-ascii Sarah, did you catch this article in issue #8 of Natural
Jewish Parenting?

"More Than One Way to Learn: An Israeli Yeshiva Offers an
Alternative", by Marilyn Tokayer

I mention it not because I think you should send your kids to
this yeshiva, but because it includes a really
thought-provoking discussion about how kids learn, how kids
fail in the standard system, and what keeps the spark of
learning alive. It accords 100% with my own experince working
with teens in a Jewish school. [...]42_30Nov200613:00:06-0600jrmoran@UCHICAGO.EDU 19116 159 39_Mishpacha Junior Homeschooler Interview12_Yael Resnick22_njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM31_Thu, 30 Nov 2006 17:54:54 -0500695_us-ascii I'm forwarding this for a very good friend of mine. I can say with
confidence that whoever responds will certainly have a positive
experience dealing with Sara Miriam!

Yael

>Hello.
>
>I write for a weekly magazine for Frum/Orthodox children called
>Mishpacha Junior. We run a regular column called Spotlight that
>features interviews with children who have
>interesting/inspiring/unique life experiences to share. I am looking
>to interview a (talkative :) ) child who homeschools for this
>column. Generally I interview by phone and then send some follow-up
>questions by email. A pseudonym can be used to keep your child
>anonymous [...]44_30Nov200617:54:54-0500njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM 19276 36 27_Re: Talmidei Chochim (ours)12_Yael Resnick22_njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM31_Thu, 30 Nov 2006 20:36:22 -0500366_us-ascii Thanks for the (unsolicited!) plug, Jennifer! :)

I hope it's OK to mention here that I have a special going on (which
is about to end) in which you can get a free back issue of your
choice with a subscription. There are other freebie offers too.

Yael

>Sarah, did you catch this article in issue #8 of Natural
>Jewish Parenting?44_30Nov200620:36:22-0500njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM 19313 61 43_Re: Mishpacha Junior Homeschooler Interview13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Thu, 30 Nov 2006 18:54:06 -0800482_iso-8859-1 I can second that Sara Miriam is a terrific person to interact with! We have known each other a number of years, and funnily enough, was one of the first people I ever discussed homeschooling with. We were walking partners years ago, at least two years before we ever began homeschooling, and I remember bringing up the topic of homeschooling (I had read about it in Mothering magazine), since I found the idea so fascinating, and asking her what she thought of it. [...]44_30Nov200618:54:06-0800avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM