1 SHAMASH.ORG /usr/www/wwwhc/listserv/archives/torch-d May 2006 2 26 17_looking for tapes25_Michael and Nadine Postol20_mnpostol@COMCAST.NET31_Tue, 16 May 2006 11:13:05 -0400368_ISO-8859-1 Is it me or has there been little activity lately?

I'm wondering if anyone knows of good torah tapes for people who really
want to learn from sources, but don't necessarily have the skills or
time to do so on their own. There are plenty of tapes with beautiful
stories and musser, but I'm looking for something a bit more intellectual. [...]42_16May200611:13:05-0400mnpostol@COMCAST.NET 29 29 8_Activity14_Bill Bernstein27_billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET31_Tue, 16 May 2006 11:03:16 -0500526_ISO-8859-1 Actually we have been having vigorous and stimulating discussions but
since I didnt think you'd be interested I didnt send them to you.
No, actually I have seen very very few posts. I guess everyone is
happy,b'h.

As for tapes, I always found R' Frand's tapes on halakhic issues to be
very good overall. He really covers the issues well. I was very
pleasantly suprised by R' Reisman's tapes on hilchos niddah and would
recommend them to anyone.
Bill Bernstein
friend of the BATFE [...]49_16May200611:03:16-0500billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET 59 28 18_Why is it so quiet16_Russell J Hendel17_rjhendel@JUNO.COM31_Tue, 16 May 2006 20:23:28 -0400616_us-ascii Hmm...
Maybe because it is end of year.
Here is a good discussion topic.

WHAT ARE H-SCHOOLERS DOING FOR THE SUMMER?
WHAT IS RECOMMENDED, ACCEPTABLE, NOT ACCEPTABLE?

Look forward to a good discussion. Remember the ground rules
(No Leshon Hara..oh shucks)

Russell;

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by
Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org,
a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and
an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...]39_16May200620:23:28-0400rjhendel@JUNO.COM 88 158 41_What we are doing on our summer vacation.14_Chaya Phillips27_callmeforavon@BELLSOUTH.NET31_Tue, 16 May 2006 09:23:19 -0400512_iso-8859-1 My children and I will be going to Camp Dina in the Pocono's of Pennsylvania. Dingmans' Ferry to be exact. It's the middle of nowhere and it's beautiful. My son will be in Stroudsburg, PA at Dora Golding, Dina's camp for boys. I am the Wilderness Director at the girl's camp. I teach the city children about bugs, frogs, salamanders, crayfish. I teach them to build fires and whittle. We also do a bit of hiking in and out of the creek. It is SO much fun being a kid, I mean a grownup. Tee hee!! [...]49_16May200609:23:19-0400callmeforavon@BELLSOUTH.NET 247 65 22_Re: Why is it so quiet18_Benjamin H Dickman19_bdickman@LUCENT.COM31_Tue, 16 May 2006 23:44:34 -0400512_us-ascii bs'd

We after-school our daughters, who go to a physical
school (5th and 2nd grades). The 7 y.o. would like
to do swimming and fun stuff this summer. The 10 y.o.
got it into her head that she'd like to finish 6th
grade by learning over the summer, then join the school's
7th grade. She's bored with the 'baby pace' in most
subjects. She's looking at the Singapore math books
and realizes that she really can go as fast as she's
willing to work. The idea excites her. [...]41_16May200623:44:34-0400bdickman@LUCENT.COM 313 155 22_Re: Why is it so quiet10_Louise Fox20_fox.louise@GMAIL.COM31_Wed, 17 May 2006 09:55:19 +0300614_ISO-8859-1 Usually it's quiet when there are no chagim - the list often gets busy when
people are procrastinating, ie writing email instead of preparing for chag
(particularly pre-Pesach) :-)

The Omer seems to be a quiet time in chutz la'aretz, but a busy time in
Israel. Practically every week we have something going on from Pesach to
Shavuot. This week, of course, it was Lag Ba'Omer, and lack of sleep is
throwing off the whole of the rest of our week!! Daniel (nearly 6) was
thrilled that he stayed up until 10pm. Rebecca's bonfire finished around
midnight. Benjamin left his [...]42_17May200609:55:19+0300fox.louise@GMAIL.COM 469 104 22_Re: Why is it so quiet9_beth mali18_malikids@GMAIL.COM31_Wed, 17 May 2006 00:14:55 -0700620_ISO-8859-1 After inquiring about summer camps earlier and requesting information from
camps, then staring at the prices in camp brochures, I started thinking of
alternatives. Wouldn't it be great if we could have a Jewish homeschoolers
family camping week somewhere in the middle of the Country near a National
Park or at a location that would be semi closer to the majority of people
that would be able to attend. We could have it be where anyone that wants
could offer any workshops or classes (not for money) about any topics that
interest them-kids or adults. Schedule them for mornings or [...]40_17May200600:14:55-0700malikids@GMAIL.COM 574 74 22_Re: Why is it so quiet16_Avigayil Simpson26_avigayil_simpson@YAHOO.COM31_Wed, 17 May 2006 02:35:14 -0700621_iso-8859-1 Sounds like a great idea to me!

Avigayil Simpson

beth mali wrote:
After inquiring about summer camps earlier and requesting information from camps, then staring at the prices in camp brochures, I started thinking of alternatives. Wouldn't it be great if we could have a Jewish homeschoolers family camping week somewhere in the middle of the Country near a National Park or at a location that would be semi closer to the majority of people that would be able to attend. We could have it be where anyone that wants could offer any workshops or classes (not for money) [...]48_17May200602:35:14-0700avigayil_simpson@YAHOO.COM 649 51 20_Our summer plans....16_Avigayil Simpson26_avigayil_simpson@YAHOO.COM31_Wed, 17 May 2006 02:59:34 -0700518_iso-8859-1 Hi,

We are planning a 3-week trip to the States with our 9 year old and 1.5 year old girls. My oldest was in the States when she was small but doesn't remember it so we are looking at this trip as if it was her first. We will be spending time in 5 states and I found a wonderful map site from which I printed on size A3 paper a huge map of each state we are visiting so when she asks, "How much loooooooonger until we geeeeeet there......?", we can look at the maps together. I also photocopied [...]48_17May200602:59:34-0700avigayil_simpson@YAHOO.COM 701 123 22_Re: Why is it so quiet14_Laya B Jackson17_tolife18@JUNO.COM31_Wed, 17 May 2006 13:09:55 +0200396_us-ascii We're under construction right now. We're adding a couple of rooms over
the roof and are painting the inside in the meantime until the rest of
the permits and logistics are ready to move ahead. That said, if the
work is done by September (which it should be), we'll be able to host
people more comfortably. Malkie S., I'm still looking forward to hosting
your bunch! [...]39_17May200613:09:55+0200tolife18@JUNO.COM 825 96 10_SUMMERTIME14_Mandy Oeschger23_sailorswife@KNOLOGY.NET31_Wed, 17 May 2006 05:30:13 -0500504_iso-8859-1 MY 5 Y.O. IS TRYING TO WRAP UP K5 THEN I HOPE TO "WORK" THROUGH SUMMER TO GET HIM AHEAD OF THE CURB FOR 1ST GRADE. I STARTED OUT TRYING TO BE SUCH A "SCHOOLER" BUT I'M FINDING WE DO MORE "SCHOOL TIME" THROUGHOUT THE DAY. I TRY AND MAKE SURE WE HAVE A BIT OF DAVENING TIME IN THE MORNING FROM THEIR ARTSCROLL SIDDUR BUT OTHER THAN THAT WE TRY TO JUST HAVE A GOOD TIME :-)
ACTUALLY, MY 5 Y.O. STARTED READING BETTER YESTERDAY WHEN I LET HIM BUILD A FORT OUT OF KITCHEN CHAIRS THEN AS HE [...]45_17May200605:30:13-0500sailorswife@KNOLOGY.NET 922 23 24_Re: Our summer plans....17_Rachel Turniansky28_rachelturniansky@HOTMAIL.COM31_Wed, 17 May 2006 07:54:51 -0400538_- >
> We are driving to Lancaster, PA for one night to visit the Amish
>country.

What a great chance to see quaint folks with beards and black hats who don't
drive in cars...oh wait, I see that every Shabbos;-)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by
Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org,
a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and
an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...]50_17May200607:54:51-0400rachelturniansky@HOTMAIL.COM 946 56 40_grade placement (was Why is it so quiet)17_Rachel Turniansky28_rachelturniansky@HOTMAIL.COM31_Wed, 17 May 2006 08:14:08 -0400653_- >
>The school english-studies principal thinks it's important
>that girls stay with their physical age cohort, especially
>during puberty. I didn't argue with her about it last year,
>but this year I might have to.
>
> kol tuv,
> Benzion Dickman

While I understand the desire to let children develop educationally
according to his or her time table, there is validity in addressing the
issue of keeping kids with their age-mates in a regular school setting.
(just one of the reasons I personally feel homeschooling is a better
alternative for some kids)
Maturity - both physical and social/emotional is [...]50_17May200608:14:08-0400rachelturniansky@HOTMAIL.COM 1003 63 24_Re: Our summer plans....16_Avigayil Simpson26_avigayil_simpson@YAHOO.COM31_Wed, 17 May 2006 06:22:52 -0700420_iso-8859-1 Hahahaha. Exactly!

My daughter doesn't really speak or read English so I printed out for her in Hebrew for her to read before we go some background on who, what, why the Amish are. The Amish are also uniquely American...something that will stick in her memory and provide a learning opportunity, an opportunity to broaden her scope of knowledge. Turn everything into a learning experience........ [...]48_17May200606:22:52-0700avigayil_simpson@YAHOO.COM 1067 119 44_Re: grade placement (was Why is it so quiet)6_Shayna17_ssheiny@YAHOO.COM31_Wed, 17 May 2006 06:50:53 -0700636_iso-8859-1 We struggle with this with our DD, who we also
afterschool. She is already the youngest in her
class, but academically she is very advanced (had we
lived almost anywhere but Chicago when she began
school, she'd be a year behind - different deadlines -
which would've been a total disaster academically).

We've been struggling all year with how to keep her
challenged, discussing the possibility of her skipping
a grade, etc. For now, at least, we've decided to
continue to challenge her at home, continue to
challenge the day school to provide more materials for
her and others like [...]39_17May200606:50:53-0700ssheiny@YAHOO.COM 1187 53 24_Re: Our summer plans....6_Shayna17_ssheiny@YAHOO.COM31_Wed, 17 May 2006 06:35:04 -0700396_iso-8859-1 Avigayil,

While you are in Las Vegas, be sure to take your kids
to some of the kid-friendly areas of the city -
including roller coasters on the top floors of hotels,
among other things. While roller coasters aren't a
big deal, it's interesting and exciting (or at least
it was when I was a kid and visited) to be doing such
things at the top of a Hotel. [...]39_17May200606:35:04-0700ssheiny@YAHOO.COM 1241 31 5_tapes17_No Name Available18_sljban@VERIZON.NET31_Wed, 17 May 2006 20:04:50 -0400594_iso-8859-1 Regarding tapes, cds, mp3, go to Aishaudio.com. There is a huge selection
of well known speakers; some can be streamed for free, all can be either
downloaded or purchased for a cost.

After a short attempt at homeschooling a very bright 4 year old, I am
looking to find a school for her in September. It is a harrowing search,
especially in light of the yeshiva disasters I have had with (much) older
children. She soared academically at home, but it was a social tragedy.
She has no siblings anywhere near her age, and the community is hard to
break [...]40_17May200620:04:50-0400sljban@VERIZON.NET 1273 62 14_Re: SUMMERTIME12_Yael Resnick22_njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM31_Wed, 17 May 2006 20:37:42 -0400379_us-ascii > I LET HIM BUILD A FORT OUT OF KITCHEN CHAIRS THEN AS HE WAS IN
>THERE, I'D WRITE A COUPLE OF WORDS FOR HIM TO READ AND SLIP IT
>THROUGH HIS "WINDOW".

Ahhhh, now that's what homeschooling is all about!! :)

Thanks for sharing. I'd love to hear more of these spur-of-the-moment
ideas that got kids learning and having fun in a very homey way. [...]44_17May200620:37:42-0400njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM 1336 31 24_Re: Our summer plans....12_Yael Resnick22_njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM31_Wed, 17 May 2006 20:55:29 -0400397_us-ascii Just as an added suggestion, I think it would be quite "uniquely
American" to see the Jewish communities in and around the areas you
will be visiting. (Perhaps you're already planning this... at least
on Shabbos, I would guess?) Kids growing up in Israel wouldn't
necessarily have any idea how American Jews live, both as part of and
apart from the world around them. [...]44_17May200620:55:29-0400njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM 1368 49 24_Re: Our summer plans....12_Yael Resnick22_njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM31_Wed, 17 May 2006 22:38:00 -0400448_us-ascii Hi Avigayil,

Are your plans already set in stone or are you looking for
suggestions of places to go? Because it's an intriguing question --
how to get the "American experience" in three weeks?

The thought of taking kids to Las Vegas hotels makes me a little
nervous... not exactly a wholesome environment. (Although I have not
been there personally, so I don't really know the ins and outs of the
place.) [...]44_17May200622:38:00-0400njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM 1418 299 14_Re: SUMMERTIME15_Shoshana Sloman18_ssloman@NETLAB.COM31_Thu, 18 May 2006 05:47:16 -0400334_US-ASCII When I was homeschooling my 9 and 11 year old boys, I took them to the park
and let them climb up a tree. I sat below and called math questions up to
them to answer.

Not that creative, but I did value the ability for them to move around in
the natural environment if they wanted, while doing schoolwork. [...]40_18May200605:47:16-0400ssloman@NETLAB.COM 1718 53 44_Re: grade placement (was Why is it so quiet)14_Mandy Oeschger23_sailorswife@KNOLOGY.NET31_Thu, 18 May 2006 02:16:34 -0500521_iso-8859-1 > Maturity - both physical and social/emotional is a real concern when there
> are a number of kids being educated together. Most research, and my own
> experience as both an educator and parent, has shown that kids do better
> when they are matched with other kids who are similar in maturity, while
> addressing their educational differences by providing them with
> individualized educational materials in the areas that need to differ from
> the rest.
>
> Kol tuv,
> Rachel [...]45_18May200602:16:34-0500sailorswife@KNOLOGY.NET 1772 37 24_Re: Our summer plans....14_Sigal Gottlieb23_sigalgottlieb@YAHOO.COM31_Thu, 18 May 2006 03:07:48 -0700607_iso-8859-1 I would have to add Colonial Williamsburg to Yael's
list.

>
> Well anyway, your post got me thinking, so here are
> a few random
> ideas (for you or anyone) for places with
> historical/cultural/geographical "educational
> value":
>
> - the Grand Canyon
> - Acadia National Park and Bar Harbor (Maine)
> - New Orleans "after Katrina" - especially the
> Jewish community there
> as they rebuild (how about Shabbos there?)
> - Ellis Island
> - Plimoth Plantation
> - Boston's historical sites along the Freedom Trail
> - Washington, D.C. [...]45_18May200603:07:48-0700sigalgottlieb@YAHOO.COM 1810 67 19_Re: grade placement17_Rachel Turniansky28_rachelturniansky@HOTMAIL.COM31_Thu, 18 May 2006 08:32:53 -0400619_- >Do you think the religious schools are just as unfulfilling as public
>schools? I ask because if we moved to a larger community, I'm not sure if
>sending my children to a religious school would be better. >
>Sincerely,
>Sarah

I think in most day schools it is more of a challenge than in public schools
to individualize for either end of the spectrum. Limited resources and
smaller schools than public schools means less special training for teachers
and fewer options. For example, in larger schools here in Baltimore, like
Bais Yaakov, there are tracks. Therefore if there is a [...]50_18May200608:32:53-0400rachelturniansky@HOTMAIL.COM 1878 66 29_Re: the house where I grew up0_17_RENALEVIN@AOL.COM29_Thu, 18 May 2006 09:08:03 EDT568_US-ASCII In a message dated 5/18/06 1:59:33 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
LISTSERV@SHAMASH.ORG writes:

> I'm looking forward to showing my husband and oldest where I grew up.
>

I did this 15 years ago when I took a trip back to Denver where I was
born/lived for the first 10 years. Definitely worth doing. Take a video camera! try
to let your hubby do the video, you take in the view from your own
eyes/memory, (no distancing or distortion, just a real experience) and let him be a
second pair of (video) eyes. Really cool experience. [...]37_18May200609:08:03EDTRENALEVIN@AOL.COM 1945 73 29_Re: summer plans/Ellis Island0_17_RENALEVIN@AOL.COM29_Thu, 18 May 2006 09:15:00 EDT417_US-ASCII This is a must! I really got a lot out of my one trip there. Would love to
go back. So much to see.

what really got to me was the exhibits of what people brought with them from
"the old country", i.e., what did they hold most dear and precious. There were
shabbos candlesticks, tefillin, shofar, etc. Those candlesticks really broke
me up. I just teared right up looking at them..... [...]37_18May200609:15:00EDTRENALEVIN@AOL.COM 2019 100 16_Re: summer plans12_Yael Resnick22_njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM31_Fri, 19 May 2006 00:25:33 -0400600_us-ascii I have not yet been to Ellis Island, but Rena's experience makes me want to go.

Also, Colonial Willamsburg is a great addition to my impromptu list.
For a virtual visit, they have a great website too,
http://www.colonialwilliamsburg.com. My kids like the games in their
Kids section.

Yael

>This is a must! I really got a lot out of my one trip there. Would
>love to go back. So much to see.
>
>what really got to me was the exhibits of what people brought with
>them from "the old country", i.e., what did they hold most dear and
>precious. [...]44_19May200600:25:33-0400njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM 2120 84 14_Re: SUMMERTIME12_Yael Resnick22_njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM31_Fri, 19 May 2006 00:27:32 -0400566_us-ascii Just curious -- did you plan to go to the park to ask them math
questions in a tree, or did that just happen spontaneously? I think
in either case, it is certainly creative because it's an
out-of-the-box way to experience math.

Yael

>When I was homeschooling my 9 and 11 year old boys, I took them to
>the park and let them climb up a tree. I sat below and called math
>questions up to them to answer.
>
>
>
>Not that creative, but I did value the ability for them to move
>around in the natural environment [...]44_19May200600:27:32-0400njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM 2205 64 14_Re: SUMMERTIME12_Harry Broome21_harrybroome@YAHOO.COM31_Thu, 18 May 2006 21:57:58 -0700579_iso-8859-1 My son likes to pretend he is in a rocket ship, and surrounds himself with props representing buttons and levers. So I become mission control and direct him to do things like "press button number 9" and he has to press the "button" (i.e., lego) next to the paper on which I wrote "9". This way he practices recognizing numbers, letters, aleph-beis, whatever I want him to practice. He loves it. I also give him missions like bringing a siddur to the man in the space station who forgot his, and other chesed-oriented missions where the recipient is very grateful [...]43_18May200621:57:58-0700harrybroome@YAHOO.COM 2270 60 21_Re: looking for tapes12_Harry Broome21_harrybroome@YAHOO.COM31_Thu, 18 May 2006 22:08:48 -0700416_iso-8859-1 Depends on the sources you're interested in, and how in-depth you are expecting them to go. I've seen several series on Mesillas Yesharim and Derech Hashem that might be detailed enough for you. Also some halacha-oriented series. But nothing that I can remember on Tanach or Mishnah or Gemarra.

Besides http://www.aishaudio.com, check out http://www.dovidgottlieb.com/ and http:// www.613.org [...]43_18May200622:08:48-0700harrybroome@YAHOO.COM 2331 323 14_Re: SUMMERTIME15_Shoshana Sloman18_ssloman@NETLAB.COM31_Fri, 19 May 2006 10:19:36 -0400369_us-ascii We planned to do schoolwork in the park. It was a lovely day to be outside,
and I figured they could take their breaks on the playground. But after a
few minutes of sitting at a picnic table doing math, they decided they
wanted to go up the tree. So I let them. The table was under the tree, so
I just continued the lesson from that position. [...]40_19May200610:19:36-0400ssloman@NETLAB.COM 2655 130 21_Re: looking for tapes6_Zohari20_najova@EARTHLINK.NET31_Fri, 19 May 2006 07:48:06 -0600669_ISO-8859-1 Here are some options out of the Rabbinical College of America in
Morristown, NJ. My husband LOVES these and now they are available as MP3s.
Check out http://www.shiurimtogo.com. These are the lecturers. And there
is an extensive library as well as new.

Rabbi Zalman Dubinsky
Rosh Yeshiva - Yeshiva Tiferes Bachurim

Likutei Sichos. A weekly Sicha learned ³inside² with full translation and
brief explanations. A great way to strengthen your Yiddish comprehension
while learning a new Sicha each week. Each Sicha will be kept to under 80
minutes, enabling you to realistically review the Sicha a number of times at
[...]42_19May200607:48:06-0600najova@EARTHLINK.NET 2786 128 7_Galled!6_Zohari20_najova@EARTHLINK.NET31_Fri, 19 May 2006 15:33:05 -0600669_ISO-8859-1 I have made every effort to avoid lashon hara and still get my point across.
-------------

This morning in the local kosher store I was approached by a well-connected
woman in the kiruv community here. She invited me to participate in a
phone-based parenting class that has, ³changed her life.² Those to be
included are limited to Shomer Shabbat, Shomer Mitzvahs,
covering-their-hair, married women with children. This barrier to the
not-yet-observant masses is because: The instructor does not want to teach
the children of non-observant parents to listen to them. In fact, it is
preferable that those children be taught [...]42_19May200615:33:05-0600najova@EARTHLINK.NET 2915 22 14_Re: SUMMERTIME15_Ilana Michelson21_stonemaker@HOTPOP.COM31_Sat, 20 May 2006 21:19:32 +0300285_ISO-8859-1 My then three yr old son was a little tigger (hes now 4 and still a
tigger). To teach him numbers I have foam mats with numbers on them. I
would call out a number and have him jump to that number. I also did it
with the alphabet. (with similar alphabet mats). [...]43_20May200621:19:32+0300stonemaker@HOTPOP.COM 2938 215 11_Re: Galled!12_David Horesh20_dhoresh@HOTBREAD.NET31_Mon, 22 May 2006 09:17:35 -0500601_ISO-8859-1 Sadly Shoshana, this is very much the attitude that the day school I
attended instilled in us as children. Our parents were looked down upon and
we were often instructed that the mitzva of kavod et avicha v¹et imecha only
applied to parents who were as Torah observant as the teachers at the
school. There was no allowance made for, or acknowledgement of the fact that
the parents made a choice, despite their own lack of knowledge, to send
their children to a more observant school where they could learn and
eventually lead. This negative view of parents led to [...]42_22May200609:17:35-0500dhoresh@HOTBREAD.NET 3154 82 11_Re: Galled!14_Bill Bernstein27_billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET31_Mon, 22 May 2006 10:15:58 -0500621_windows-1252 I would like to address this one with maybe a different approach.

Kiruv is a difficult issue in our times. I think Chazal would have a
hard time recognizing today's Jewish society, where one can freely
identify as Jewish and yet keep no mitzvas. Even 500 years ago this was
probably unthinkable.
The area of non-observant parents with observant kids is probably one of
the most difficult. In fact it is the case,as best I remember, that a
child is obligated to ignore the parents' wishes if those wishes involve
violating commandments. I recall the example of the kohein who [...]49_22May200610:15:58-0500billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET 3237 53 10_Re: Tigger11_Rick Dinitz16_dinitz@TIBCO.COM31_Mon, 22 May 2006 10:23:10 -0700375_us-ascii Ilana,

Thanks for reminding me about this wonderful opportunity for physical
learning.
We did similar stuff when my son was younger (he's 13 now). I remember
how
we used to play a Twister variation with two sets of Alef-Bet foam mats.
"Can your left foot find a Resh. Can either hand find a Tav. Jump on
the
letters to spell Moshe." [...]38_22May200610:23:10-0700dinitz@TIBCO.COM 3291 35 35_Re: Honoring of Parents vs Mitzvoth16_Russell J Hendel17_rjhendel@JUNO.COM31_Mon, 22 May 2006 16:37:03 -0400377_us-ascii Just to set the record straight--there is NO law ANYPLACE to do what your
parents ask you. You for example, do not have to go into the business
they want nor marry the person they ask you to.

The two Biblical commandments are to
(a) RESPECT parents---translation: When you say NO do so respectfully
Dont for example say "None of your business" [...]39_22May200616:37:03-0400rjhendel@JUNO.COM 3327 160 11_Re: Galled!10_Larry Beck19_larry@BECKFORCE.COM31_Mon, 22 May 2006 17:09:23 -0400316_us-ascii My understanding is that even in the case where a child must disobey his
parents because they asked him to do an Avarah the child still owes the
parents full Kibud Av v'Aim and must obey the parents in everything else.
One can still give honor even if they have to disobey a particular order. [...]41_22May200617:09:23-0400larry@BECKFORCE.COM 3488 156 17_Re: kibud av v'em0_17_RENALEVIN@AOL.COM29_Tue, 23 May 2006 08:32:13 EDT443_US-ASCII In a message dated 5/23/06 1:59:47 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
LISTSERV@SHAMASH.ORG writes:

> My understanding is that even in the case where a child must disobey his
> parents because they asked him to do an Avarah the child still owes the
> parents full Kibud Av v'Aim and must obey the parents in everything =
> else.
> One can still give honor even if they have to disobey a particular =
> order.
> [...]37_23May200608:32:13EDTRENALEVIN@AOL.COM 3645 403 17_Re: kibud av v'em15_Shoshana Sloman18_ssloman@NETLAB.COM31_Tue, 23 May 2006 11:20:00 -0400384_us-ascii Your story brings tears to my eyes. I see this happening all the
time-parents supporting (and paying for) their children's involvement in a
Torah-based lifestyle. And, unfortunately, I also see the attitude that
disrespects parents, even when they do those things, and gives children the
impression that their parents are somehow "less". It breaks my heart. [...]40_23May200611:20:00-0400ssloman@NETLAB.COM 4049 50 51_summer plans (longish and not to the point so much)15_Bara Loewenthal26_bara@BTGENTERPRISESINC.COM31_Tue, 23 May 2006 18:58:11 -0600561_iso-8859-1 Hi all,
I hope you all have wonderful weather as we do here in Denver, Colorado. I
am taking all my three children(7,5,1 and some) ALL BY MYSELF to Europe,
Czech republic to visit their grandparents and cousins and uncle and aunts.
I know I am crazy, do not remained me the flight we be a special treat.
We are going for the whole month. My plans of course are grand, but the
reality is that if I show them the Prague castle, Charles bridge, take the
tram and subway somewhere, I will be satisfied. If I am really ambitious [...]48_23May200618:58:11-0600bara@BTGENTERPRISESINC.COM 4100 283 11_Re: Galled!15_Bara Loewenthal26_bara@BTGENTERPRISESINC.COM31_Tue, 23 May 2006 18:58:11 -0600590_iso-8859-1 Galled!Dear Shoshana,
it is sad, sad state of affairs. I feel your anger and disappointment.As a
parent who would probably not be asked to join this phone based
life-changing parenting lesson ( I do not cover my hair - long story, I did
wear a hat/wig for the first 4 years of my marriage) I can tell you that
this attitude is unfortunately quite prevalent in this community. It seems
to be thriving because the parents who are not observant or are trying to be
are allowing it to happen, they think that their precious children are
BETTER OFF being [...]48_23May200618:58:11-0600bara@BTGENTERPRISESINC.COM 4384 89 11_Re: Galled!13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Tue, 23 May 2006 19:12:23 -0700340_iso-8859-1 I didn't understand the original posting - parents who weren't religious couldn't participate in this parenting class and learn to be better parents because their children might listen to them?? Huh? Wouldn't this apply more to teaching the children, not the parents? I just don't understand the connection between the two. [...]44_23May200619:12:23-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 4474 784 11_Re: Galled!15_Shoshana Sloman18_ssloman@NETLAB.COM31_Wed, 24 May 2006 05:37:49 -0400608_us-ascii What a freaky story, Avivah! My husband says he would have turned it around
on the woman and said, "You didn't even see what happened, so for you to
chastise me is irresponsible."

Anyway, as for Shoshana Z's original posting, I think the idea is that these
parenting methods they are going to teach are so powerful that the children
will begin doing whatever you say without argument. So if you are not frum,
you will probably be telling them to eat treif and break Shabbos, and with
these parenting tools in your arsenal, the kids will unquestioningly comply.
Then [...]40_24May200605:37:49-0400ssloman@NETLAB.COM 5259 157 11_Re: Galled!0_17_RENALEVIN@AOL.COM29_Wed, 24 May 2006 09:13:19 EDT551_US-ASCII In a message dated 5/24/06 1:59:16 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
LISTSERV@SHAMASH.ORG writes:

> Anyway, a woman came over (who didn't even see what happened, just heard
> about it when a coach went to get me an ice pack), and laid into me about what
> an irresponsible parent I was and telling me how I was wrong to be watching
> the game and put my baby in danger. I asked her what her name was after a
> few minutes of this. She said, "My name is ________, my husband is the
> (position) of (large institution), I [...]37_24May200609:13:19EDTRENALEVIN@AOL.COM 5417 107 11_Re: Galled!6_Zohari20_najova@EARTHLINK.NET31_Wed, 24 May 2006 07:39:58 -0600600_ISO-8859-1 on 5/24/06 3:37 AM, Shoshana Sloman at ssloman@NETLAB.COM wrote:

> Anyway, as for Shoshana Z¹s original posting, I think the idea is that these
> parenting methods they are going to teach are so powerful that the children
> will begin doing whatever you say without argument. So if you are not frum,
> you will probably be telling them to eat treif and break Shabbos, and with
> these parenting tools in your arsenal, the kids will unquestioningly comply.
> Then the people teaching the parenting methods will be guilty of creating an
> army of kids who will [...]42_24May200607:39:58-0600najova@EARTHLINK.NET 5525 67 11_Re: Galled!13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Wed, 24 May 2006 07:17:40 -0700552_iso-8859-1 If these techniques are so powerful, I am interested in hearing what they are myself! I am a big believer in teaching children to be respectful and responsive of their parents, and I certainly don't allow my children to argue with me when I tell them to do something, but the idea of them unthinkingly and robotically doing what I say makes me queasy. I very strongly believe that a solid relationship has to be the base of any parenting techniques, and while my kids are very responsive to what I tell them to do (and I expect them to [...]44_24May200607:17:40-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 5593 376 11_Re: Galled!15_Shoshana Sloman18_ssloman@NETLAB.COM31_Wed, 24 May 2006 10:43:05 -0400506_us-ascii Haha. Maybe that was the issue. "I can't go watch your game because I have
to stay home with little Snookums. It would be irresponsible to bring him
along." Times 9.

_____

From: Torah-Centered Homeschooling [mailto:TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG] On Behalf Of
RENALEVIN@AOL.COM
Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2006 9:13 AM
To: TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG
Subject: Re: [TORCH-D] Galled!

In a message dated 5/24/06 1:59:16 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
LISTSERV@SHAMASH.ORG writes: [...]40_24May200610:43:05-0400ssloman@NETLAB.COM 5970 68 11_Re: Galled!11_Nechama Cox20_nechama@BOREALIS.COM31_Wed, 24 May 2006 13:55:10 -0400580_iso-8859-1 Avivah

> It is unfortunate in any group of people to find those who are so
>insecure in their practices that they have to look down on others as
>not good enough.

I think you have hit the nail on the head -- it is based on fear and
insecurity.

>
>This reminds me of something that happened to me this Sunday (not
>religiously based, though). I got hit by a fouled softball when
>watching my son's baseball game, even though I was standing quite a
>distance away. BH it didn't hit my baby, who I was holding.
>Anyway, a [...]42_24May200613:55:10-0400nechama@BOREALIS.COM 6039 36 7_Galled!7_No Name21_littlebears@TESCO.NET31_Wed, 24 May 2006 18:29:07 +0100575_ISO-8859-1 Hello

I wondered whether it might be o.k. for me as someone new to Judaism to put in my 2p’worth?

I also found the original post disturbing. I understand that there is a dilemma about the command to honour your parents, if those parents are telling the child to break mitzvot. But I was taught that a child under the age of responsibility, a minor, is required to obey no matter what (and if he is telling the child to sin, the parent is responsible for that sin) but that one must honour one’s parents all one’s life. I would [...]43_24May200618:29:07+0100littlebears@TESCO.NET 6076 53 25_Re: Danger (was: Galled!)18_Benjamin H Dickman19_bdickman@LUCENT.COM31_Wed, 24 May 2006 17:58:57 -0400547_us-ascii bs'd

Halakha deals with danger, and a few factors are involved.
Is the 'dangerous' activity necessary to one's livelihood?
What is the probability/frequency of a dangerous outcome?

Climbing a rickety ladder to get a better view of a softball
game would be strongly discouraged. Being on terra firma
some distance away makes one unlikely to get beaned, and
would be permitted even though the possibility existed.
And as everyone has mentioned, you were doing something very
positive by being there. [...]41_24May200617:58:57-0400bdickman@LUCENT.COM 6130 159 11_Re: Galled!0_17_RENALEVIN@AOL.COM29_Thu, 25 May 2006 09:18:51 EDT554_US-ASCII In a message dated 5/25/06 1:58:47 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
LISTSERV@SHAMASH.ORG writes:

> Moving right along, there are rabbis who are not qualified to
> render halakhic decisions in every area of life. Kiruv is
> a very sensitive area, and those who work in it need to be in
> continual contact with a truly qualified posek. So not only
> do many people not know halakha, they don't even know whom to ask.
> It's even worse when they *think* they know something, or are
> following an unqualified rabbi.
> [...]37_25May200609:18:51EDTRENALEVIN@AOL.COM 6290 131 11_Re: Galled!10_Larry Beck19_larry@BECKFORCE.COM31_Thu, 25 May 2006 10:31:00 -0400522_US-ASCII Rena,

One of the areas that the Frum world still needs a lot of work is in Derach
Eretz and Midos. We are usually in such a rush to teach Gemorah that we
forget the dictum: "Derach Eretz Kadma l'Torah". My Rabbi taught that this
means that if a person doesn't have Derach Eretz instilled in them they
won't be have the ability to learn Torah, no matter how much Gemorah you
teach them. Like the case of this lady, many people have the Halakha but
don't know how or when to apply it. [...]41_25May200610:31:00-0400larry@BECKFORCE.COM 6422 427 11_Re: Galled!15_Shoshana Sloman18_ssloman@NETLAB.COM31_Thu, 25 May 2006 11:43:34 -0400405_us-ascii Well. . .there is that teaching that the Torah is like water, which
nourishes weeds and other plants alike. They say that learning Torah will
make both the positive and the negative grow within you, so you need to do
that weeding yourself! (I guess that's what mussar is for?) Anyway,
perhaps these people are going on that principle and they don't want to
nourish any weeds! [...]40_25May200611:43:34-0400ssloman@NETLAB.COM 6850 109 11_Re: Galled!6_Zohari20_najova@EARTHLINK.NET31_Thu, 25 May 2006 11:43:04 -0600525_ISO-8859-1 You got it Rena! Unfortunately, I feel that a great deal of kiruv work is
being done by the wrong people and for the wrong reasons. That is one of
the main factors in our decision to homeschool and why I posted this in the
first place. We have to be careful whom we choose as our guides in this
journey and remember that Hashem gave us our children because WE are the
best people to grow and guide them ­ even if we are not on board with Torah
yet. A child is much more likely to follow the [...]42_25May200611:43:04-0600najova@EARTHLINK.NET 6960 432 15_FW: catching up6_suelap20_suelap@EARTHLINK.NET31_Thu, 25 May 2006 21:42:44 -0700432_us-ascii _____

From: susan [mailto:suelap7@comcast.net]
Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2006 8:21 PM
To: torch-d@shamash.org
Subject: catching up

I have been a lurker here for most of this year, but I still can't wean
myself from what I think is one of the best sources of lively, respectful
and intelligent conversation around -even if I technically stopped
hschooling (after 15 years) this past fall. [...]42_25May200621:42:44-0700suelap@EARTHLINK.NET 7393 98 19_Re: FW: catching up13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Sat, 27 May 2006 20:37:18 -0700385_iso-8859-1 Susan,

Thank you for taking the time to update us! It is so encouraging to hear about the good results of others further down the homeschooling path. I especially appreciate that you shared how you used to agonize over if you were doing the right thing - I know that many (if not all) of us do this, and it is helpful to have the perspective of your experience. [...]44_27May200620:37:18-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 7492 200 13_Pay the moms!6_Zohari20_najova@EARTHLINK.NET31_Sat, 27 May 2006 22:21:23 -0600574_US-ASCII Here is something cute I picked up from a blog. We all know how important
mother's work is (and stay-home dads!) but it's fun to see a dollar amount
put on it. Enjoy.... Shoshana Z.
--------------

Study: US mothers deserve $134,121 in salary

By Ellen Wulfhorst Wed May 3, 9:11 AM ET
From Yahoo News
NEW YORK (Reuters) - A full-time stay-at-home mother would earn $134,121 a
year if paid for all her work, an amount similar to a top U.S. ad executive,
a marketing director or a judge, according to a study released Wednesday. [...]42_27May200622:21:23-0600najova@EARTHLINK.NET 7693 58 10_Re: Summer0_16_DGreens1@AOL.COM29_Sun, 28 May 2006 10:19:47 EDT326_US-ASCII I try to teach to the scope and sequence during the year, so the children can
do well on state tests. The summer I try to keep for all the things we didn't
have time or a scholastic box for. Home Economics, values and goal setting,
career guidance, exercise, nutrition, economics, art, music, and bugs. [...]36_28May200610:19:47EDTDGreens1@AOL.COM 7752 149 24_Re: catching up & summer14_Evelyn Krieger18_ek2000@COMCAST.NET31_Sun, 28 May 2006 13:30:56 -0400568_iso-8859-1 Thanks, Susan for your update. It was very interesting to see how different paths fit for different kids. (I'd actually like to hear about your other kids as well.) It is so hard to make these decisions, especially at the high school level.

On another note: I'd like to hear what kinds of "end-of-school year" activities or wrap-ups families are doing. Do you just glide into summer and consider yourself learning all year round, or do you have a culminination "school is finished" approach.
Thanks,
Evelyn
----- Original Message ----- [...]40_28May200613:30:56-0400ek2000@COMCAST.NET 7902 119 26_state tests ( was summer )14_Mandy Oeschger23_sailorswife@KNOLOGY.NET31_Sun, 28 May 2006 14:01:01 -0500379_iso-8859-1 Here in Fl. we have the option of having a state certified teacher come to your home and look over your work with the children. The teacher then writes and o.k. to the school board. OR we can have state tests. Are you familiar with this routine? I haven't enrolled my 5 y.o. with the school system yet. I'm thinking " the longer the better ".. open to comments.. [...]45_28May200614:01:01-0500sailorswife@KNOLOGY.NET 8022 41 39_Re: Galled, Honoring parents, Obedience16_Russell J Hendel17_rjhendel@JUNO.COM31_Sun, 28 May 2006 19:17:35 -0400632_us-ascii Anonymous writes
>I also found the original post disturbing. I understand that there is a
dilemma about the command to honour your parents, if those parents are
telling the child to break mitzvot. But I was taught that a child under
the age of responsibility, a minor, is required to obey no matter what
(and if he is telling the child to sin, the parent is responsible for
that sin) but that one must honour one’s parents all one’s
life. I would also have viewed honouring one’s parents as a core
mitzvah, and undermining parental authority certainly borders on breaking
[...]39_28May200619:17:35-0400rjhendel@JUNO.COM 8064 23 20_Passing of My Mother16_Russell J Hendel17_rjhendel@JUNO.COM31_Sun, 28 May 2006 19:14:29 -0400565_us-ascii My mother passed away today. I have frequently shared her thoughts on
education with members of this group. I will be sitting shivah in
Brooklyn (Bensonhurst). Anyone NYers who wish to pay a condolence call
may write me.

Russell

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by
Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org,
a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and
an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...]39_28May200619:14:29-0400rjhendel@JUNO.COM 8088 95 17_Re: Pay the moms!13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Sun, 28 May 2006 18:42:30 -0700302_iso-8859-1 I've seen this before - and I think the salary is way, way too low. It almost cheapens being a mom to see such a low price put on the jobs we do. Being a parent is about much more than the chores you do every day; it is about building people of character, and that is truly invaluable. [...]44_28May200618:42:30-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 8184 70 21_Re: passing of mother0_17_RENALEVIN@AOL.COM29_Mon, 29 May 2006 09:30:32 EDT410_US-ASCII In a message dated 5/29/06 1:58:13 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
LISTSERV@SHAMASH.ORG writes:

> Subject: Passing of My Mother
>
> My mother passed away today. I have frequently shared her thoughts on
> education with members of this group. I will be sitting shivah in
> Brooklyn (Bensonhurst). Anyone NYers who wish to pay a condolence call
> may write me.
>
> Russell [...]37_29May200609:30:32EDTRENALEVIN@AOL.COM 8255 79 24_Re: Passing of My Mother12_Emily Coplon22_emily.coplon@GMAIL.COM31_Mon, 29 May 2006 10:34:35 -0400700_ISO-8859-1 May you be comforted among the mourners of Zion and Jerusalem. may we only
share simchas.
Emily

On 5/28/06, Russell J Hendel wrote:
>
> My mother passed away today. I have frequently shared her thoughts on
> education with members of this group. I will be sitting shivah in
> Brooklyn (Bensonhurst). Anyone NYers who wish to pay a condolence call
> may write me.
>
> Russell
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by
> Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org,
> a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and
> an [...]44_29May200610:34:35-0400emily.coplon@GMAIL.COM 8335 81 21_Re: passing of mother14_Laya B Jackson17_tolife18@JUNO.COM31_Mon, 29 May 2006 20:39:12 +0200435_us-ascii Dear Russell,

HaMakom yenachem et'chem b'toch shar avay'lay Tzion vee'Yerushalayim
May you be comforted among the mourners of Zion and Jerusalem.

"Consolation is not a natural process. Neither the passage of time, nor
the awkward, well-meaning gestures of others can remove the memory or
wipe away the pain. That is why we ask God to comfort him -- because we
cannot." --(from the aish website) [...]39_29May200620:39:12+0200tolife18@JUNO.COM 8417 26 17_passing of mother15_Michelle Miller25_michelletamar@HOTMAIL.COM31_Mon, 29 May 2006 13:49:27 -0700691_- Russel,

Baruch Dayan Emes. May your mother's memory always be for a blessing.

B"Shalom,
michelle

_________________________________________________________________
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To unsubscribe email: TORCH-D-unsubscribe-request@SHAMASH.ORG47_29May200613:49:27-0700michelletamar@HOTMAIL.COM 8444 25 21_Re: passing of mother14_Malkie Swidler24_swidler@NETVISION.NET.IL31_Mon, 29 May 2006 21:49:13 +0300553_ISO-8859-1 Russell,

You're in our thoughts... as are your mother's words of wisdom.

HaMakom y'nachem etchem b'toch shaar ave'lei Tzion v'Yerushalayim.

Malkie

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The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by
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a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and
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To unsubscribe email: TORCH-D-unsubscribe-request@SHAMASH.ORG46_29May200621:49:13+0300swidler@NETVISION.NET.IL 8470 50 24_Re: Passing of My Mother6_suelap20_suelap@EARTHLINK.NET31_Mon, 29 May 2006 14:09:42 -0700569_US-ASCII Russell,

You have shared through the years how much you learned from your mother, and
as such she lives on through you. Please convey my condolences to your
sister Amy as well and may your whole family be comforted.

HaMakom Yenachem Etchem B'toch She'ar Evlei Zion V'Yerushalayim

Susan

-----Original Message-----
From: Torah-Centered Homeschooling [mailto:TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG] On Behalf Of
Russell J Hendel
Sent: Sunday, May 28, 2006 4:14 PM
To: TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG
Subject: [TORCH-D] Passing of My Mother [...]42_29May200614:09:42-0700suelap@EARTHLINK.NET 8521 288 17_Re: Pay the moms!15_Shoshana Sloman18_ssloman@NETLAB.COM31_Mon, 29 May 2006 20:16:48 -0400560_us-ascii I was told by an insurance agent that their normal rule of thumb is that the
cost of what a stay-at-home mom provides is less than what her upkeep is.
In other words, if "anything happened" the cost of replacing her services
would be more than offset by the fact that you no longer have to pay for her
food, clothing, medical, and so on. I thought about that a lot, and
determined that it really has to do with (1) how many children you have, and
(2) exactly what services are being provided and how they would be replaced.
[...]40_29May200620:16:48-0400ssloman@NETLAB.COM 8810 42 39_Re: Galled, Honoring parents, Obedience15_Shoshana Sloman18_ssloman@NETLAB.COM31_Mon, 29 May 2006 20:16:47 -0400473_us-ascii Russell wrote:

>Again I repeat. There is NO commandment to obey ones parents. One may
>disagree PROVIDED they do it respectfully. . . This point of mine seems
>to have gone unnoticed.

Russell, you seem to have overlooked that Anonymous wrote:

>I would also have viewed honouring one's parents as a core
>mitzvah, and undermining parental authority certainly borders on breaking
>that, whether or not disobedience is involved. [...]40_29May200620:16:47-0400ssloman@NETLAB.COM 8853 82 17_Re: Pay the moms!14_Bill Bernstein27_billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET31_Mon, 29 May 2006 19:45:06 -0500558_windows-1252 I think you need to change insurance agents.

We bought insurance not too long ago. Neither of us is a stay at home
parent but the calculations were similar. My wife used to pay the bills
and balance the check book and a few other things. If she weren't able
to do that anymore I would have to hire a bookeeper to do those things
(don't get me near a checkbook). I would have to hire a nanny for the
kids. Lots of tasks would need relatively expensive hired help to
replace the domestic labor.
As far as what she [...]49_29May200619:45:06-0500billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET 8936 43 24_Re: Passing of My Mother15_Bara Loewenthal26_bara@BTGENTERPRISESINC.COM31_Mon, 29 May 2006 20:17:24 -0600553_US-ASCII May Hashem give you the strenght you need right now.
Bara

-----Original Message-----
From: Torah-Centered Homeschooling [mailto:TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG]On Behalf
Of Russell J Hendel
Sent: Sunday, May 28, 2006 5:14 PM
To: TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG
Subject: [TORCH-D] Passing of My Mother

My mother passed away today. I have frequently shared her thoughts on
education with members of this group. I will be sitting shivah in
Brooklyn (Bensonhurst). Anyone NYers who wish to pay a condolence call
may write me. [...]48_29May200620:17:24-0600bara@BTGENTERPRISESINC.COM 8980 65 17_Re: Pay the moms!12_Yael Resnick22_njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM31_Mon, 29 May 2006 21:31:39 -0400584_us-ascii I don't get this at all. (Maybe I'm missing the obvious?) It seems to
me that the salary that a person makes who works outside of the home
is also often offset by the cost of having the job -- wardrobe,
lunches, transportation, child care, etc. What am I missing here?

Also, I don't understand why one would need to hire a bookkeeper to
balance a checkbook, for example, when pretty much anyone can learn
to balance a checkbook, even if they don't like doing it! :)
Because based on that reasoning, if ch'v something happens to a
husband who [...]44_29May200621:31:39-0400njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM 9046 22 24_Re: Passing of My Mother6_Zohari20_najova@EARTHLINK.NET31_Mon, 29 May 2006 20:49:24 -0600521_US-ASCII May you be strengthened by knowing that your mother's teachings and spirit
will live through you and your children.

Shoshana Z.

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To unsubscribe email: TORCH-D-unsubscribe-request@SHAMASH.ORG42_29May200620:49:24-0600najova@EARTHLINK.NET 9069 99 17_Re: Pay the moms!15_Shoshana Sloman18_ssloman@NETLAB.COM31_Tue, 30 May 2006 06:46:46 -0400651_us-ascii Maybe clothes and makeup. You know how women are. And shoes.

-----Original Message-----
From: Torah-Centered Homeschooling [mailto:TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG] On Behalf Of
Bill Bernstein
Sent: Monday, May 29, 2006 8:45 PM
To: TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG
Subject: Re: [TORCH-D] Pay the moms!

I think you need to change insurance agents.

We bought insurance not too long ago. Neither of us is a stay at home
parent but the calculations were similar. My wife used to pay the bills
and balance the check book and a few other things. If she weren't able
to do that anymore I would have to hire a bookeeper to do [...]40_30May200606:46:46-0400ssloman@NETLAB.COM 9169 103 17_Re: Pay the moms!15_Shoshana Sloman18_ssloman@NETLAB.COM31_Tue, 30 May 2006 06:52:50 -0400597_us-ascii They are saying that the cost of replacing the services provided would be
less than the cost of upkeep for the mother. In other words, most normal
people would NOT hire a bookkeeper to balance a checkbook, but would do it
themselves. If they are not Homeschooling, their school costs wouldn't
change (or would go down if they send them to public school). As we know,
babysitters are paid very little, or they would let the kids stay with
grandma, or by themselves for an hour after school, if they are older. They
would either do the housecleaning themselves or [...]40_30May200606:52:50-0400ssloman@NETLAB.COM 9273 62 17_Re: Pay the moms!15_Shoshana Sloman18_ssloman@NETLAB.COM31_Tue, 30 May 2006 07:02:19 -0400478_us-ascii In general, I object to the worth of a person being measured by their income
potential. I don't see how it is an indication of their value as a human
being or their contribution to society.

For instance, someone is always saying that it's immoral, or shows the
depravity of our materialistic society, that baseball players and actors
make more money than teachers and nurses. How can we use a dollar amount to
determine someone's importance? [...]40_30May200607:02:19-0400ssloman@NETLAB.COM 9336 94 17_Re: Pay the moms!0_21_YiddisheMameh@AOL.COM29_Tue, 30 May 2006 07:52:52 EDT874_US-ASCII In a message dated 5/30/2006 6:46:32 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
ssloman@NETLAB.COM writes:

Maybe clothes and makeup. You know how women are. And shoes.

Maybe I'm not a woman (or a typical one). I have no time or interest in
makeup, fancy shoes or clothes! :)

Chana

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Is abortion really now "safe" although legal?
See for yourself:

_http://www.lifedynamics.com/Pro-life_Group/Pro-choice_Women/_
(http://www.lifedynamics.com/Pro-life_Group/Pro-choice_Women/)

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The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by
Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org,
a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and
an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...]41_30May200607:52:52EDTYiddisheMameh@AOL.COM 9431 41 17_Re: Pay the moms!8_cillakat18_cillakat@GMAIL.COM31_Mon, 29 May 2006 23:30:57 -0400367_ISO-8859-1 i actually love these 'mom salary' things. And I love forwarding
them to my dh who doesn't 'get' my contribution some of the time.

It would cost him a serious fortune if something happened to me (G-d
forbid). He works 12h a day 3 days a week, 10h a day 2 days a week,
and a few hours on the other day (of course taking one day off:)). [...]40_29May200623:30:57-0400cillakat@GMAIL.COM 9473 29 12_Pay the moms8_cillakat18_cillakat@GMAIL.COM31_Tue, 30 May 2006 06:58:53 -0400454_ISO-8859-1 <> replacing her services would be more than offset by the fact that you
> no longer have to pay for her food, clothing, medical, and so on.>>

this is almost hilariously funny if it weren't patently, falsely
untrue and offensive.

food? clothing? medical? omgosh, those are tiny little fractions
compared to the actual 'accountable' services provided by a mom. [...]40_30May200606:58:53-0400cillakat@GMAIL.COM 9503 301 17_Re: Pay the moms!15_Shoshana Sloman18_ssloman@NETLAB.COM31_Tue, 30 May 2006 12:44:42 -0400548_us-ascii Joking!

:-)

_____

From: Torah-Centered Homeschooling [mailto:TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG] On Behalf Of
YiddisheMameh@AOL.COM
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 7:53 AM
To: TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG
Subject: Re: [TORCH-D] Pay the moms!

In a message dated 5/30/2006 6:46:32 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
ssloman@NETLAB.COM writes:

Maybe clothes and makeup. You know how women are. And shoes.

Maybe I'm not a woman (or a typical one). I have no time or interest in
makeup, fancy shoes or clothes! :) [...]40_30May200612:44:42-0400ssloman@NETLAB.COM 9805 39 9_Mazel Tov6_Shayna17_ssheiny@YAHOO.COM31_Tue, 30 May 2006 08:17:53 -0700427_iso-8859-1 It is with great thanks to Hashem, and with great
pleasure that we announce the arrival of the newest
member of our family:

Sivan Margalit
born May 24, 2006 / 26 Iyar 5766
1:49 a.m.
8 lbs. 11 oz., almost 19 inches (18 and 11/12)

Both Mommy and baby are doing well. Big sister
Kinneret, big brother Uri, and Abba are all adjusting
nicely and quite excited by the new addition. [...]39_30May200608:17:53-0700ssheiny@YAHOO.COM 9845 35 35_Galled, Honoring Parents, Obedience7_No Name21_littlebears@TESCO.NET31_Tue, 30 May 2006 16:55:12 +0100476_ISO-8859-1 Hello

I just wanted to apologize if anything that I said offended – it certainly wasn’t intended. I am really at the beginning of a very steep learning curve, and seem to be getting everything wrong!

I realize that my background, although based in Scripture, comes from a different ideological perspective (not to mention the Atlantic divide!), and I appreciate your pointing me in the right direction as far as halacha is concerned. [...]43_30May200616:55:12+0100littlebears@TESCO.NET 9881 53 17_Re: Pay the moms!14_Sigal Gottlieb23_sigalgottlieb@YAHOO.COM31_Tue, 30 May 2006 10:18:49 -0700532_iso-8859-1 I think that when we try to place a monetary value on
our family and household activities, we devalue it.

First, as many have pointed out, the care our spouses
and children get from a loving parent is priceless.
Putting any price on it can only cheapen it. Frankly,
there is no cost of replacement for something
(someone) irreplacable. So obviously, as a measure of
how much we should appreciate the contribution made by
parents to their children and home, the pricetag is
inadequate. [...]45_30May200610:18:49-0700sigalgottlieb@YAHOO.COM 9935 42 20_Life Insurance, etc.6_Zohari20_najova@EARTHLINK.NET31_Tue, 30 May 2006 11:54:36 -0600578_US-ASCII I love all of the responses that this post generated! Especially the
tongue-in-cheek. :) I posted this for a dose of humor, not as any sort of
validation tool for our parenting/schooling choices.

The point about life insurance is a very good and important one that many
people overlook. My husband and I are both heavily insured and it takes a
pretty penny to keep up with it. But it seems well worth it in the event
(cv"s ) that someone else would need to care for our children. In fact, our
agent was very sensitive and thinking on this [...]42_30May200611:54:36-0600najova@EARTHLINK.NET 9978 129 17_Re: Pay the moms!13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Tue, 30 May 2006 14:01:59 -0700480_iso-8859-1 When I first got life insurance, the agent told us that stay at home moms are covered at half whatever their husbands are covered at (though he successfully pushed my paperwork through to cover the full amount, since I adamantly told him half the amount wasn't suitable at all). Recently, I decided to up our coverage amounts, and this agent (for a different company) told me that stay at home moms are covered at up to 3/4 of what their husbands are covered for. [...]44_30May200614:01:59-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 10108 86 39_Re: Galled, Honoring Parents, Obedience15_Shoshana Sloman18_ssloman@NETLAB.COM31_Tue, 30 May 2006 17:08:45 -0400628_us-ascii Sharon, I don't think anything you've said has been offensive. I am glad
you are participating in the discussion.

-Shoshi

-----Original Message-----
From: Torah-Centered Homeschooling [mailto:TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG] On Behalf Of
No Name
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 11:55 AM
To: TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG
Subject: [TORCH-D] Galled, Honoring Parents, Obedience

Hello

I just wanted to apologize if anything that I said offended – it
certainly wasn’t intended. I am really at the beginning of a very
steep learning curve, and seem to be getting everything wrong! [...]40_30May200617:08:45-0400ssloman@NETLAB.COM 10195 84 24_Re: Life Insurance, etc.13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Tue, 30 May 2006 14:31:09 -0700505_iso-8859-1 I wanted to add to this the following - term life insurance is very affordable. Lots of people think that insurance is too expensive and don't even bother looking into it. The younger you are when you get it, the cheaper it is, and you can lock the price in for twenty years (maybe more, but this was the option I chose). It's a bit more expensive to get it for a longer term but can save money in the long run. When we first got insurance on dh, we only got it for a ten year term, so it [...]44_30May200614:31:09-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 10280 62 13_Re: Mazel Tov14_Bill Bernstein27_billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET31_Tue, 30 May 2006 18:27:04 -0500617_ISO-8859-1 Shayna,
As list-owner and on behalf of everyone here I wish you a hearty mazal
tov and all good things.

Since I have now done that for everyone, I will only forward
maledictions from others on the list. Anyone wishing to send mazal tovs
can do so privately.
Thanks
Bill Bernstein

Shayna wrote:

>It is with great thanks to Hashem, and with great
>pleasure that we announce the arrival of the newest
>member of our family:
>
>Sivan Margalit
>born May 24, 2006 / 26 Iyar 5766
>1:49 a.m.
>8 lbs. 11 oz., almost 19 inches (18 and 11/12)
>
[...]49_30May200618:27:04-0500billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET 10343 72 17_Re: Pay the moms!14_Bill Bernstein27_billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET31_Tue, 30 May 2006 18:37:21 -0500420_ISO-8859-1 Avivah, I am confused (a normal state for me these days). My impression
of life insurance is that you can purchase whatever coverage you want.
They might suggest what an appropriate amount would be, but there is no
limit per se. Since you pay based on the death benefit (among other
factors) they should have an incentive to sell you as much as possible,
at least not to be adverse to it. [...]49_30May200618:37:21-0500billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET 10416 106 39_Re: Galled, Honoring Parents, Obedience14_Laya B Jackson17_tolife18@JUNO.COM31_Wed, 31 May 2006 03:54:18 +0200470_us-ascii Hi Sharon, I just wanted to send a quick note that everyone, regardless
of their background, gets to taste their foot from time to time. Please
don't worrry if you say something that someone thinks is "off track".
I'm sure you've heard the expression that "if you get two Jews in a room,
you'll hear three opinions!" I think we're all in the same place of
having a lot to learn and needing to trust our sense of things too along
the way. [...]39_31May200603:54:18+0200tolife18@JUNO.COM 10523 102 34_translating our Hebrew and Yiddish14_Laya B Jackson17_tolife18@JUNO.COM31_Wed, 31 May 2006 04:21:35 +0200510_us-ascii l'havdil

l'havdil could be translated as 'to differenciate' so when someone says
l'havdil it meant to contrast two thoughts or ideas

c"vs

Are initials which mean "chas v'shalom" it's a term which is used like
"G-d forbid" but it's really a way of wanting to overshadow a negative
thought with a positive blessing I think. I've asked what chas means but
don't remember. In Israel people tend to say "chas v'chalila". I can't
remember what chalila means either. [...]39_31May200604:21:35+0200tolife18@JUNO.COM 10626 26 8_New blog6_Zohari20_najova@EARTHLINK.NET31_Wed, 31 May 2006 07:20:22 -0600327_US-ASCII One thing that I have been planning to do with some of my personal time this
summer is try to keep up a blog. I stayed up very late last night getting
it started. Check out realjewishwomen.blogspot.com to see how it comes
along. Of course I would very much value the participation of Torch-d
members. [...]42_31May200607:20:22-0600najova@EARTHLINK.NET 10653 110 39_Re: Galled, Honoring Parents, Obedience13_Family Salle'18_fam.salle@TERRA.ES31_Wed, 31 May 2006 12:22:51 +0200566_us-ascii HI Sharon,
Hear is a view of somone who also probably has come from the same
background as you (an English convert from chistianety). Hear is a
practical aplecation were dihonering you perentce respecfully is a meens of
servival let a lone halacha.

As a child I was raid by perence who had a very warped sens of what was
right and what was wrong. I turnd to G-d and the torah my self as a child
and I am apselutly convised that is what/who cept me sain. When ever my
perance did things that were oxplisetly metiond in Torah [...]40_31May200612:22:51+0200fam.salle@TERRA.ES 10764 153 13_Re: Insurance0_17_RENALEVIN@AOL.COM29_Wed, 31 May 2006 10:06:22 EDT593_US-ASCII In a message dated 5/31/06 1:58:31 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
LISTSERV@SHAMASH.ORG writes:

>
> I read in Mishpacha that in Lakewood, there are some who want to only let
> insurance agents sell policies of one million or more, since that is the
> minimum they feel is adequate for the typical frum family to live off of (I think
> the assumption is that it would be invested and the family would live
> meagerly off the dividends). That is assuming that tuitions would be need to be
> paid, so the average homeschooling family could certainly have less [...]37_31May200610:06:22EDTRENALEVIN@AOL.COM 10918 125 14_Re: insurance?0_17_RENALEVIN@AOL.COM29_Wed, 31 May 2006 10:13:37 EDT436_US-ASCII In a message dated 5/31/06 1:58:31 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
LISTSERV@SHAMASH.ORG writes:

> As for the socialist-minded in Lakewood, I don't have comments that
> would be appropriate erev Shavuous.
>

I don't think that this is socialist. Rather, I think this is enlightened.
(although I have DO have trouble with the terminology of "not letting" anyone
sell less than a fixed dollar amount!). [...]37_31May200610:13:37EDTRENALEVIN@AOL.COM 11044 82 14_Re: insurance?14_Bill Bernstein27_billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET31_Wed, 31 May 2006 09:26:21 -0500656_ISO-8859-1 I interpreted the restraint on free trade between two parties as
"socialist." People should be able to buy whatever kind of life
insurance (or anything else for that matter) that they want. This was
my point.
Bill Bernstein

RENALEVIN@AOL.COM wrote:

> In a message dated 5/31/06 1:58:31 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> LISTSERV@SHAMASH.ORG writes:
>
>
>> As for the socialist-minded in Lakewood, I don't have comments that
>> would be appropriate erev Shavuous.
>
>
>
> I don't think that this is socialist. Rather, I think this is
> enlightened. (although I have DO have trouble with the [...]49_31May200609:26:21-0500billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET 11127 410 13_Re: Insurance15_Shoshana Sloman18_ssloman@NETLAB.COM31_Wed, 31 May 2006 10:36:26 -0400346_us-ascii Perhaps they could get in trouble regarding business ethics if it looks like
they are selling too high an amount.

Or maybe they could feel that it would be too much for them to have to pay
out, if it is not justified.

Also perhaps it brings up suspicion about negative intentions (regarding the
beneficiary). [...]40_31May200610:36:26-0400ssloman@NETLAB.COM 11538 64 34_U.N. making homeschooling illegal?10_Larry Beck19_larry@BECKFORCE.COM31_Wed, 31 May 2006 11:00:34 -0400589_us-ascii FYI, Something to call you congressmen about.
The US judges are trying to use a UN treaty to affect homeschooling:
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/printer-friendly.asp?ARTICLE_ID=50395

Larry

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a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and
an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/

To unsubscribe email: TORCH-D-unsubscribe-request@SHAMASH.ORG41_31May200611:00:34-0400larry@BECKFORCE.COM 11603 77 7_Shavuot14_Mandy Oeschger23_sailorswife@KNOLOGY.NET31_Wed, 31 May 2006 13:34:24 -0500416_iso-8859-1 Anyone up to sharing kid-friendly recipes for Shavuot...??? Aish has the best french onion soup I've ever tasted but not all of my kids like that :-) I plan on making it anyway, it's too good to pass up. Looking forward to hearing from you.

Sincerely,
Mandy

"With His pinion He will cover you, and beneath His wings you will be protected; His truth is shield and armor." Psalms 91:4 [...]45_31May200613:34:24-0500sailorswife@KNOLOGY.NET 11681 141 38_Re: U.N. making homeschooling illegal?14_Mandy Oeschger23_sailorswife@KNOLOGY.NET31_Wed, 31 May 2006 15:09:46 -0500463_iso-8859-1 Yeah, I read this article. Do you really think they would/could go through with this?? Things are so politically correct these days it's hard to imagine it happening but the world is gone mad enough these days that I just don't know what to think. ez3

Mandy

----- Original Message -----
From: Larry Beck
To: TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG
Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 10:00 AM
Subject: [TORCH-D] U.N. making homeschooling illegal? [...]45_31May200615:09:46-0500sailorswife@KNOLOGY.NET 11823 163 38_Re: U.N. making homeschooling illegal?10_Larry Beck19_larry@BECKFORCE.COM31_Wed, 31 May 2006 17:04:54 -0400477_us-ascii Mandy,

Its not just that the UN has passed this treaty that the Senate may or may
not ratify. The activist judges are try to make the US accept it on the
basses that "the rest of the world is doing it so we have to do it too",
even without a ratified treaty and even if it abridges our constitutional
rights. That's the scariest part of all because they can then use the same
argument to abridge any right they want, not just homeschooling. [...]41_31May200617:04:54-0400larry@BECKFORCE.COM 11987 547 13_Re: Insurance9_OOPsMaven17_OOPsMaven@SHAW.CA31_Wed, 31 May 2006 16:13:55 -0700577_windows-1255 I wanted to comment on several aspects of this whole subject.

First, let me say that life insurance is vital and people tend not to have enough of it. A lot of jobs come with a certain amount of life insurance, but it's usually something like 1.5 or 2 times your annual salary, which isn't enough to replace a person's long term wage earning potential to their family (and, of course, isn't available to SAHMs). Every person who has a mortgage and/or any dependents needs to have adequate insurance! It has nothing to do with one's faith in Hashem. He [...]39_31May200616:13:55-0700OOPsMaven@SHAW.CA