1 SHAMASH.ORG /usr/www/wwwhc/listserv/archives/torch-d December 2005 2 208 47_Re: was: living in Israel, now spiritual growth8_S Sloman18_ssloman@NETLAB.COM30_Thu, 1 Dec 2005 05:11:20 -0500439_us-ascii > my concern about posting online is always that my tone can't be heard
accurately, and my statements will be meant in a manner other than how
they are intended

Avivah, I for one think that you express yourself very well in writing.
You do state your opinions clearly and strongly, but I haven't read your
posts as being harsh or judgmental of others, whether I am in agreement
with the content or not. [...]39_1Dec200505:11:20-0500ssloman@NETLAB.COM 211 373 10_Re: Israel14_Laya B Jackson17_tolife18@JUNO.COM30_Thu, 1 Dec 2005 06:23:03 +0200410_us-ascii On Tue, 29 Nov 2005 20:22:58 -0700 Michelle Miller
writes:
>Well, I was not going to post in response to Avigail's comments, but I
must
say that Avivah and Bill took the words right out of my mouth (and so
much
more eloquently). Our family has put our aliyah retirement plans on a
big
hold, since the pogrom that just took place in Gush Katif. [...]38_1Dec200506:23:03+0200tolife18@JUNO.COM 585 128 36_Re: Aliyah - inaccurate information?10_Louise Fox20_louise@JOSHUAFOX.COM30_Thu, 1 Dec 2005 08:41:57 +0200494_ISO-8859-1 Excuse me for disagreeing Benzion, but as far as I know, much of what
you wrote is not true.
My parents just (made aliya) this summer, and I've been helping them get
sorted, so I think I know some of what I am talking about.

There are agreements between the USA (as with the UK) to avoid double
taxation. It is not true that you would pay in both the US and Israel.
If something is taxed in the States you don't pay tax on it in Israel,
and vice versa. [...]41_1Dec200508:41:57+0200louise@JOSHUAFOX.COM 714 139 24_Re: Israeli HSing issues10_Louise Fox20_louise@JOSHUAFOX.COM30_Thu, 1 Dec 2005 08:49:15 +0200545_ISO-8859-1 Yes, there are a group of homeschoolers working on getting the law
changed to state explicitly that homeschooling is allowed. Currently
there is a law saying that all kids have to be educated (from age 5 to
18), and another law saying that parents have the right to choose how
and where their kids are educated. This is what allows us to homeschool,
and also allows the Education Ministry to hassle anyone they feel like -
mostly single mothers and other homeschooling families whom they
perceive as "weak". [...]41_1Dec200508:49:15+0200louise@JOSHUAFOX.COM 854 75 10_Re: Israel16_Avigayil Simpson26_avigayil_simpson@YAHOO.COM30_Thu, 1 Dec 2005 00:24:01 -0800542_iso-8859-1 Michelle,

I take GREAT exception to what happened in Gush being likened to a pogrom and to that being used as a reason not to come. I cannot improve on Laya's post regarding this. I think she said it all and so perfectly too.

The only thing I might add is if you think that was wrong, terrible, scary, whatever, then please come and add your weight to ours and help us change things, shape the country, make it a place that any Jew would be proud to live in. By staying there, yeah, you might save your own skin [...]47_1Dec200500:24:01-0800avigayil_simpson@YAHOO.COM 930 131 29_Re: living in Israel (longer)0_21_YiddisheMameh@AOL.COM28_Thu, 1 Dec 2005 07:28:49 EST605_US-ASCII In a message dated 11/30/2005 9:55:31 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
avigayil_simpson@YAHOO.COM writes:

My Mom told me fairly recently that a rabbi we had at a certain point in our
lives gave all of his 9 children Hebrew names that they used on a daily
basis but that he and his wife gave each child an English/American name and made
sure each chil d knew what theirs was in case it ever became necessary to
flee, forge documents, lose/change their identities, etc. When my Mom told me
this, I'm afraid I had a teeny conniption fit! Instantly, the first thing that
[...]40_1Dec200507:28:49ESTYiddisheMameh@AOL.COM 1062 40 50_An Israeli Law Firm Fights for Homeschool Freedoms10_Larry Beck19_larry@BECKFORCE.COM30_Thu, 1 Dec 2005 07:53:08 -0500749_us-ascii This is an article from HSLDA.
Larry

An Israeli Law Firm Fights for Homeschool Freedoms

http://www.hslda.org/hs/international/Israel/200511280.asp

The Kabiri-Nevo-Keidar law firm represents Israeli families interested in
schooling their children at home. Currently, the firm has dozens of families
who are members.

The law in Israel has not yet been formalized in a way that most
homeschooling families in Israel would desire. Right now the homeschool law
is based on a 50-year old ordinance. Nevertheless, the Ministry of Education
frequently misapplies the law and dictates how and when homeschooling will
be approved. The Kabiri-Nevo-Keidar law firm hopes to update this law and
[...]40_1Dec200507:53:08-0500larry@BECKFORCE.COM 1103 259 47_Re: was: living in Israel, now spiritual growth12_Rena Weisman19_renaweisman@COX.NET30_Thu, 1 Dec 2005 07:07:46 -0700537_iso-8859-1 Avivah -
I second that.

I always enjoy your posts, They are insightful, informative, articulate and inspiring.

Please keep writing!

Rena
----- Original Message -----
From: S Sloman
To: TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG
Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 3:11 AM
Subject: Re: [TORCH-D] was: living in Israel, now spiritual growth

> my concern about posting online is always that my tone can't be heard accurately, and my statements will be meant in a manner other than how they are intended [...]40_1Dec200507:07:46-0700renaweisman@COX.NET 1363 106 11_Re: aliyah?0_17_RENALEVIN@AOL.COM28_Thu, 1 Dec 2005 09:12:48 EST352_US-ASCII In a message dated 12/1/05 1:52:00 AM Eastern Standard Time,
LISTSERV@SHAMASH.ORG writes:

> It wouldn't take much for that to happen and I think we're going to be
> seeing more and more of that kind of thing in other parts of the world, the US
> included. France was just a trial run. The writing's on the wall, IMO.
> [...]36_1Dec200509:12:48ESTRENALEVIN@AOL.COM 1470 57 20_Re: blue background?0_17_RENALEVIN@AOL.COM28_Thu, 1 Dec 2005 09:14:45 EST578_US-ASCII In a message dated 12/1/05 1:52:00 AM Eastern Standard Time,
LISTSERV@SHAMASH.ORG writes:

> What browser/mailer do you use?
>

AOL! will try to change the options.

Rena

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To unsubscribe email: TORCH-D-unsubscribe-request@SHAMASH.ORG36_1Dec200509:14:45ESTRENALEVIN@AOL.COM 1528 42 24_closing thread on Israel13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM30_Thu, 1 Dec 2005 06:31:24 -0800661_iso-8859-1 I better write this fast, before another post comes in on the topic! :) The thread on Israel is currently being closed; however, futher discussion of homeschooling issues in Israel will remain open.

Avivah
Torch-d moderator

---------------------------------
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The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by
Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org,
a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and
an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/43_1Dec200506:31:24-0800avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 1571 54 47_Re: was: living in Israel, now spiritual growth18_Mrs Moriah Chesler17_merilyn@ABSOL.COM30_Thu, 1 Dec 2005 10:10:51 -0500409_- Actually, it is good to feel 'uneasy' or even 'guilty' when reading
something that comes across as hitting a nerve. Our neshamos know it, but
our bodies are denying it. This is called conflict, pull between the two
yetzers. And if one feels a tad bit guilty for getting involved in
machlokes, one is heading towards a positive direction. Hopefully it will
lead towards spiritual growth. [...]38_1Dec200510:10:51-0500merilyn@ABSOL.COM 1626 41 6_Skills14_Bill Bernstein27_billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET30_Thu, 1 Dec 2005 09:17:45 -0600594_ISO-8859-1 For those of you who get the Wall St Journal on a regular basis, I would
point to an article on the left column, front page of yesterday's (Wed
11-30) paper. For those of you who dont get the paper, shame.
The article concerned a woman and her 3 little kids. Her husband is a
convicted stock broker awaiting sentencing for fraud and insider
trading. The article detailed her various troubles trying to make ends
meet after the gov't seized all their assets. Among the issues was
whether to remain married to the shmoe, who had a history of
extra-marital [...]48_1Dec200509:17:45-0600billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET 1668 90 47_Re: was: living in Israel, now spiritual growth14_Bill Bernstein27_billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET30_Thu, 1 Dec 2005 14:15:53 -0600604_ISO-8859-1 And here I thought arguing about even a controversial subject (who
argues about non-controversial ones?) was healthy since it forced people
to hone their arguments and examine their own views and that of others.
I know I have vehemently disagreed with R' Jeremy Rosen, and told him
so,only to rethink the issue later on and decide he was probably right.
I ended up having more respect for him (and I hope vice versa) as a
result of our sometimes barbed exchanges than if we had swept the mess
under the carpet, vowing to steer clear of "machlokes" and respond to
[...]48_1Dec200514:15:53-0600billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET 1759 23 10_Re: Skills14_Evelyn Krieger18_ek2000@COMCAST.NET30_Thu, 1 Dec 2005 15:47:53 -0500477_iso-8859-1 Interesting thought, Bill. I believe the gemara tells us to teach our
children a trade, help them find a mate, and to swim, if I remember
correctly?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by
Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org,
a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and
an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...]39_1Dec200515:47:53-0500ek2000@COMCAST.NET 1783 119 20_Re: spiritual growth13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM30_Thu, 1 Dec 2005 14:26:39 -0800493_iso-8859-1 I strongly disagree that making people feel guilty for not being good enough is a way to inspire them to want to change, but think it is counterproductive and results in people feeling the need to justify what they are doing. Change comes from a positive place of self-love, not from someone beating a stick from the outside. This is what my experience in child raising, kiruv, and self -growth has shown to be true again and again, and what our chachamim have taught as well. [...]43_1Dec200514:26:39-0800avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 1903 46 21_Let's talk Time Lines14_Malkie Swidler24_swidler@NETVISION.NET.IL30_Thu, 1 Dec 2005 23:36:41 +0200461_ISO-8859-1 Ahhh, time lines.

My son, 8, got his paws on the Horrible Histories cd's that were being
sold here in Israel bundled with Rice Krispies. We got all 6 cd's. And
he LOVES them. And now he loves history. My sister is going to England
and coming home with the Horrible History books (E-bay is my friend) so
he'll be deep in history for the foreseeable future. Plus there's a
Jewish history for kids text at my parents house... [...]45_1Dec200523:36:41+0200swidler@NETVISION.NET.IL 1950 117 20_Re: spiritual growth14_Sigal Gottlieb23_sigalgottlieb@YAHOO.COM30_Thu, 1 Dec 2005 14:36:57 -0800541_iso-8859-1 Thank you, Aviva! This was beautifully said and very
much appreciated.

Many years ago I listened to a tape called "Escaping
the urge to criticize" (I don't remember the Rov's
name, sorry) and I remember his rule of thumb -- if
you want to criticize, you shouldn't, because it is
coming from the wrong place. The only criticism that
is appropriate is the one that you really, really
don't want to say but know that you must. With
criticism, if it doesn't feel bad, you shouldn't be
doing it. [...]44_1Dec200514:36:57-0800sigalgottlieb@YAHOO.COM 2068 37 47_Re: was: living in Israel, now spiritual growth8_S Sloman18_ssloman@NETLAB.COM30_Thu, 1 Dec 2005 22:13:03 -0500378_us-ascii Bill wrote:

> But the trick is to learn what is an argument l'sheim shomayim and
what is merely egotism.

I agree with that, but I also think there is also the trick of showing
respect for the person you are arguing with. You can disagree and
dispute and make your case, but there should be a foundation of honor
shown to your "opponent". [...]39_1Dec200522:13:03-0500ssloman@NETLAB.COM 2106 24 25_Re: Let's talk Time Lines12_Yael Resnick22_njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM30_Thu, 1 Dec 2005 22:35:23 -0500525_us-ascii >Plus there's a Jewish history for kids text at my parents house...

Malkie, can I ask what book that is? I'm looking for something
appropriate for my 11-year-old daughter.

Thanks!
Yael

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The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by
Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org,
a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and
an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...]43_1Dec200522:35:23-0500njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM 2131 30 10_time lines15_Michelle Miller25_michelletamar@HOTMAIL.COM30_Thu, 1 Dec 2005 22:36:14 -0700475_- We are using Sonlight and it comes with timeline stickers. I already had a
timeline from our Calvert days that stretches down the hallway on the wall.
The timeline characters are in sticker form; we pencil in the Jewish history
dates with colored markers and our own drawings.

We have a very small house and I generally don't like school stuff on my
main floor, but I think the timeline is working well for us there because we
see it constantly. [...]46_1Dec200522:36:14-0700michelletamar@HOTMAIL.COM 2162 44 25_Re: Let's talk Time Lines14_Evelyn Krieger18_ek2000@COMCAST.NET30_Fri, 2 Dec 2005 12:01:57 -0500741_iso-8859-1 There is an wonderful series called Sand and Stars.(Berel Wein?) It is
expensive and oversized I think, but very engagin and well written for sixth
to tenth grade.
Evelyn
----- Original Message -----
From: "Yael Resnick"
To:
Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 10:35 PM
Subject: Re: [TORCH-D] Let's talk Time Lines

> >Plus there's a Jewish history for kids text at my parents house...
>
> Malkie, can I ask what book that is? I'm looking for something appropriate
> for my 11-year-old daughter.
>
> Thanks!
> Yael
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> The TORCH-D mailing list is [...]39_2Dec200512:01:57-0500ek2000@COMCAST.NET 2207 56 25_Re: Let's talk Time Lines11_Rick Dinitz16_dinitz@TIBCO.COM30_Fri, 2 Dec 2005 11:09:06 -0800325_ISO-8859-1 Malkie Swidler wrote:

> Which brings me to the subject of time lines, and how to integrate all
> the information he's soaking up (like a sponge-- it's a little eerie
> when your 8 yo wants to discuss the Battle of Hastings [1066!] with
> you, but hey, that's what homeschooling is all about). [...]37_2Dec200511:09:06-0800dinitz@TIBCO.COM 2264 37 12_History text18_Jamie Lichtenstein18_jamie@ALUM.MIT.EDU30_Sat, 3 Dec 2005 10:20:04 -0500660_us-ascii Yael (and anyone else who's interested),

Behrman House recently published a great new 3 book series called Challenge
and Change. There's a discount if you buy the three books directly from
Behrman house and teacher's guides are free if you order books. The
teacher's guides are downloadable as pdf's at
http://www.temple.edu/challengeandchange/ by clicking on the pictures of
the three books so you can see the type of material and chapter
summaries. The website also has links to web pages and primary
documents. It's aimed at middle school age kids although a few of the
primary documents are quite difficult for [...]39_3Dec200510:20:04-0500jamie@ALUM.MIT.EDU 2302 265 20_Farewell from Moriah8_S Sloman18_ssloman@NETLAB.COM30_Sat, 3 Dec 2005 19:48:56 -0500578_us-ascii Moriah sends the following farewell message to the list:

Mrs Moriah Chesler wrote:
>
> BS"D
>
> I just want to bid farewell as I'm leaving this list. I have grown
> tremendously since I joined this list, and now I feel that I should be
> spending time focusing on my family and my other obligations. I don't
think
> I will be missed that much, but feel free to contact me offline, to
drop in
> a hello, and I hope someday we will all meet in Yerushalayim in a time
of
> *real* peace.
>
[...]39_3Dec200519:48:56-0500ssloman@NETLAB.COM 2568 64 25_Thank G-d for controversy16_Avigayil Simpson26_avigayil_simpson@YAHOO.COM30_Sat, 3 Dec 2005 23:28:10 -0800444_iso-8859-1 Dear list,

All the best to Moriah and I hope she continues to make choices that enhance her "derech".

I am compelled to say, though, that after having received Moriah's farewell note, I was struck my her implied reason for leaving and it left me......amazed, speechless, sad.

Controversy. Isn't that what the vast majority of our texts do and are? Questioning? Controversy? Machlokot? Arguments? Searching? [...]47_3Dec200523:28:10-0800avigayil_simpson@YAHOO.COM 2633 613 29_Re: Thank G-d for controversy8_S Sloman18_ssloman@NETLAB.COM30_Sun, 4 Dec 2005 12:11:30 -0500713_us-ascii I try to make a distinction between controversy and pointless arguing.

Discussing differences can help everyone learn-providing additional
facts, presenting a new perspective on facts, and pointing out
relationships and ways of understanding the facts that might lead to
different conclusions.

On the other hand, I often run into controversial discussions that serve
no such purpose. Instead, people are spouting off, trying to force
their own opinion at the expense of others'. In fact, they often
degrade into ad hominem attacks, and attempts to prove that not only is
one's opinion superior, but one's opponent is personally inferior,
morally reprehensible, [...]39_4Dec200512:11:30-0500ssloman@NETLAB.COM 3247 81 17_Re: manipulatives12_Caryn Lipson24_caryn_lipson@HOTMAIL.COM30_Sun, 4 Dec 2005 10:58:52 -0500684_iso-8859-1 Thanks for a good suggestion.

Caryn

----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael and Nadine Postol"
To:
Sent: Monday, November 28, 2005 1:00 PM
Subject: [TORCH-D] manipulatives

> Caryn-
>
> I wuld suggest reviewing the Shiller site and possibly speaking with
Shiller, himself to see if/how you can make this work. I've not spoken with
him myself, but I've been told he's very accessable. I know what it's like
to "not get it" in math. It's difficult when you feel like you're the one
holding back everyone else, just because the teacher is impatient or dosen't
get your [...]45_4Dec200510:58:52-0500caryn_lipson@HOTMAIL.COM 3329 139 29_Re: Thank G-d for controversy16_Avigayil Simpson26_avigayil_simpson@YAHOO.COM30_Sun, 4 Dec 2005 11:30:34 -0800534_iso-8859-1 Agreed.

Avigayil

S Sloman wrote:

v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);} I try to make a distinction between controversy and pointless arguing.

Discussing differences can help everyone learn—providing additional facts, presenting a new perspective on facts, and pointing out relationships and ways of understanding the facts that might lead to different conclusions. [...]47_4Dec200511:30:34-0800avigayil_simpson@YAHOO.COM 3469 30 13_disagreements25_Michael and Nadine Postol20_mnpostol@COMCAST.NET30_Mon, 5 Dec 2005 14:08:22 -0500486_ISO-8859-1 Hi all,

If you can stand just 2 more thoughts on disagreements, I'd like to say
these:
Elu v'elu .... and shevim panim to Torah.
I don't always agree with what people say, but I don't have to. As long
as Torah is the goal, there is some truth to what most people have to
say. Everyone has their own derech , it's not for me to say if they are
right or wrong (unless halacha is in question; hashkafa, on the other
hand, is a personal matter). [...]41_5Dec200514:08:22-0500mnpostol@COMCAST.NET 3500 57 25_Re: Let's talk Time Lines14_Malkie Swidler24_swidler@NETVISION.NET.IL30_Tue, 6 Dec 2005 01:32:37 +0200437_ISO-8859-1 This book is called 2000 Years of Jewish History by Rabbi David Schloss.
It is concise and surprisingly well written. This book is written from a
Yeshivish perspective, which I do not share, but it gives a reasonable
background on the Gedolim of the last 2000 years (I don't think a woman
other than Dona Gracia and the Vilna Gaon's mother is mentioned-- I
suppose everyone else reproduced asexually ;) ). [...]45_6Dec200501:32:37+0200swidler@NETVISION.NET.IL 3558 62 41_Books by Rabbi Benjamin Blech - thumbs up13_Barbara Mazor19_barbmazor@YAHOO.COM30_Tue, 6 Dec 2005 05:53:31 -0800409_iso-8859-1 Malkie-

>>I am currently looking into The Idiot's Guide to Jewish History and
Culture, which was written by a YU Rabbi (a little closer to my world
view, and if it's good I'll use it too, for its different perspective).



The same author, Rabbi Benjamin Blech, has another book titled
Eyewitness to Jewish History. It looks good-- full of primary sources!<< [...]40_6Dec200505:53:31-0800barbmazor@YAHOO.COM 3621 51 17_Re: disagreements15_Shoshana Sloman18_ssloman@NETLAB.COM30_Tue, 6 Dec 2005 09:20:42 -0500515_- I like those thoughts, Nadine. I've been considering why people feel so
uncomfortable with disagreements, and I think it is because they are a
threat on some level. Either a threat to one's way of thinking, or a
social threat (if everyone disagrees with me, I'm an outcast), or if the
other person's opinion is considered dangerous or ill-conceived, it could
be a threat to the social order. Probably there are other ways that
disagreements could be threatening to the individual, as well. [...]39_6Dec200509:20:42-0500ssloman@NETLAB.COM 3673 44 25_Re: Let's talk Time Lines12_Yael Resnick22_njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM30_Mon, 5 Dec 2005 23:03:37 -0500585_us-ascii Thanks for the info, Malkie. I'd be interested to hear what you think
of the other books, too, if/when you read them.

Yael

>I am currently looking into The Idiot's Guide to Jewish History and
>Culture, which was written by a YU Rabbi (a little closer to my
>world view, and if it's good I'll use it too, for its different
>perspective). It's allegedly humorous, which is quite a feat
>considering that most of Jewish History is comprised of "they let us
>in, we did well, then they tried to kill us all so those of us who
>survived had [...]43_5Dec200523:03:37-0500njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM 3718 42 25_Re: Let's talk Time Lines28_Jamie Rosenblum Lichtenstein18_jamie@ALUM.MIT.EDU30_Tue, 6 Dec 2005 09:56:12 -0500609_us-ascii Malkie,

I can say I thought The Idiot's Guide to Jewish History was a great
overview and one of the few I enjoyed reading cover to cover - some of the
humor might go over the heads of many middle school students though.

Jamie

>Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 01:32:37 +0200
>From: Malkie Swidler
>Subject: Re: Let's talk Time Lines
>
>I am currently looking into The Idiot's Guide to Jewish History and
>Culture, which was written by a YU Rabbi (a little closer to my world
>view, and if it's good I'll use it too, for its different [...]39_6Dec200509:56:12-0500jamie@ALUM.MIT.EDU 3761 71 20_[QUAR] disagreements12_ruthie thurm21_ruthiethurm@YAHOO.COM30_Mon, 5 Dec 2005 23:30:38 -0800630_iso-8859-1 dear nadine... in parshas bereishis, perek alef, passuk vav we find the words "va'yehi mavdil" (and let it divide) and in passuk zayin, "va'yavdil"(and he divided)... the midrash explains that Hashem created gehinnom, five specific groups of angels, divided the waters above and below the firmament, and did not complete His work for yom sheini. the omission of the words "ki tov" are due to the seemingly negative aspects of the days' creations; namely the creation of seven different compartments of varying levels of fire torture for ones sins (although the action of being consumed by fire, risen and consumed [...]42_5Dec200523:30:38-0800ruthiethurm@YAHOO.COM 3833 188 20_Introspection/Ruthie14_Mandy Oeschger23_sailorswife@KNOLOGY.NET30_Tue, 6 Dec 2005 17:10:05 -0600295_iso-8859-1 Ruthie,

From your words below, would you suggest putting my nearly 5 y.o. in a "time out" for the whole day when he is mean to his 2 y.o. brother? How do you apply the alone time? Do you think he'd forget the reason for being away from his brother by the end of the day?? [...]44_6Dec200517:10:05-0600sailorswife@KNOLOGY.NET 4022 95 29_Re: Thank G-d for controversy18_Benjamin H Dickman19_bdickman@LUCENT.COM30_Tue, 6 Dec 2005 23:12:58 -0500650_windows-1252 bs'd

From: http://www.torah.org/advanced/shem-meshmuel/5764/lagbaomer.html

"The plague in which the 25,000[sic] disciples of Rabbi Akiva died and its
cessation on Lag B’ Omer [Talmud Bavli, Yevamot 62b] is explained by the nature
of the period of Sefirat HaOmer in which it occurred and the significance of
this day on which it ceased. So too, this will help us understand the Talmudic
explanation that they died as a punishment for not giving each other proper
respect, even though this is not a sin for which there is a death penalty,
either by a human bet din or at the hand of Heaven.
...
[...]40_6Dec200523:12:58-0500bdickman@LUCENT.COM 4118 45 22_[QUAR] Re: punishments12_ruthie thurm21_ruthiethurm@YAHOO.COM30_Tue, 6 Dec 2005 16:29:29 -0800592_iso-8859-1 mandy... each child and each family is different... likewise defined terms of misbehavior. to my own experience i b"h don't have to enforce this strict rule (except in one isolated instance a year and a half ago in regards to a six year old who went through a "violent" phase of hitting family members - very long story, very easy to resolve - that's where the "chiddushim" were discovered by said child) basically because the punishment is harsh and the simple matter of fact that everyone truly enjoys each others company... everything stems from our number one rule of the [...]42_6Dec200516:29:29-0800ruthiethurm@YAHOO.COM 4164 76 25_fwd: request for feedback13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM30_Wed, 7 Dec 2005 21:42:57 -0800390_iso-8859-1 The following has been sent to me by a list member with a request to forward it to the list, and her name will therefore not appear on this, thus preserving the privacy of the sender and her family. She has shared details which she hopes will be helpful in providing useful suggestions and feedback to her, but which could be/ lead to lashon hara if she were not anonymous. [...]43_7Dec200521:42:57-0800avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 4241 126 29_Re: fwd: request for feedback15_Alison Jacobson23_alisonziskind@YAHOO.COM30_Wed, 7 Dec 2005 22:21:41 -0800601_iso-8859-1 Thank you to the person who shared these concerns. I
can only imagine the pain you're dealing with at this
moment. First, let me offer my sincere condolences on
the passing of your father, a"h. He should be in Gan
Eden. Second, I am so sorry about the heartache
you're experiencing with your mother. How difficult
to have to be a caretaker and to see someone dealing
in hurtful ways with their grief. Since we just
experienced a sudden death in our family, as you all
are aware, I can tell you that peoples' reactions
range tremendously. Still, there are [...]44_7Dec200522:21:41-0800alisonziskind@YAHOO.COM 4368 130 29_Re: fwd: request for feedback14_Bill Bernstein27_billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET30_Thu, 8 Dec 2005 12:54:39 -0600620_ISO-8859-1 I'm gonna assume that the therapy option has already been explored.

But with that said, my best advice for a really difficult sticky
situation is as follows:
It is not really your job to "parent" this teenager. She obviously is
resistent to that idea anyway. But that does not give her license to
behave any ole way around your house. I would strike a deal, either
explicit or implicit: she has the following responsibilities (they can
be washing up, bussing her dishes, getting her laundry in the laundry
basket, or whatever). But in return you wont hassle her about her
[...]48_8Dec200512:54:39-0600billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET 4499 57 12_difficulties25_Michael and Nadine Postol20_mnpostol@COMCAST.NET30_Thu, 8 Dec 2005 21:29:42 -0500326_ISO-8859-1 My heart goes out to the women with the 17 yo sister. May H' help her
and her family and all of us to heal and live full meaningful lives.

I was wondering if anyone thought of getting the 17yo in therapy. There
are many excellent frum therapists, especially if she lives in a large
metro area. [...]41_8Dec200521:29:42-0500mnpostol@COMCAST.NET 4557 251 17_Re: difficulties?0_17_RENALEVIN@AOL.COM29_Sun, 11 Dec 2005 01:42:51 EST575_US-ASCII We went through something similar quite a while back. My mom passed away
suddenly, at age 52, shortly after my younger sister came back from seminary. Mom
and Dad were divorced, mom was remarried, sis could not live with our step-dad
because of issues of Yichud.

8 weeks after mom died, our dad became ill with leukemia. At that point, our
brother left yeshiva and he came to our city to help care for dad. Dad had
been living in NY but came to Baltimore for cancer treatment since the 2 married
siblings and 1 single sib were here, it [...]37_11Dec200501:42:51ESTRENALEVIN@AOL.COM 4809 93 41_Coloring pages with FINAL Hebrew letters?15_Rachel Gurevich25_rachel.gurevich@GMAIL.COM31_Sun, 11 Dec 2005 11:34:40 +0200287_ISO-8859-1 Hello,

I know this is a pretty simple question compared to most here, but...

Does anyone know where I can find coloring pages for Hebrew FINAL letters? I
can find the regular letters, but not Nun Sofit or Mem Sofit, for example...

Thanks!

Rachel47_11Dec200511:34:40+0200rachel.gurevich@GMAIL.COM 4903 30 45_Re: Coloring pages with FINAL Hebrew letters?6_Zohari20_najova@EARTHLINK.NET31_Sun, 11 Dec 2005 08:17:14 -0700567_US-ASCII We use some cute books from Behrman House called "Sam the Detective" and
"Sam the Detective and the Alef Bet Mysterty." They are cute coloring books
with some beginning letter exercises. Some of the pictures are weird (a
vampire in "vav"), but my children have no problem using the big, black
marker to censor what they don't like ! :) They cost under $8 and can be
ordered through the publisher or through Amazon.com. Amazon has cheaper
shipping, including free shipping if you order over $25. (Am I really
promoting this place?!) [...]42_11Dec200508:17:14-0700najova@EARTHLINK.NET 4934 449 29_Re: fwd: request for feedback14_Laya B Jackson17_tolife18@JUNO.COM31_Tue, 13 Dec 2005 08:15:09 +0200392_us-ascii I love what others have already posted. I do believe that counseling is
a most important element. It's not clear if you've worked with this
option or how your sister might feel about it. If she's open, that's a
great thing, you can work together to find someone she can talk with,
build trust with and work through her issues. It's a long road and it's
not easy. [...]39_13Dec200508:15:09+0200tolife18@JUNO.COM 5384 54 39_jewish little house on the prarie books9_beth mali18_malikids@GMAIL.COM31_Fri, 16 Dec 2005 06:09:37 -0800355_ISO-8859-1 Do any of you know if there are any series books written for Jewish children
along the theme of "Little House on the Prarie" by Laura Ingles Wilder or
like the xtion "Love Comes Softly" series by Janette Oke? We have read the
"All of a kind family" series of the jewish east coast city kids.
Thanks for any input.
Beth Mali [...]40_16Dec200506:09:37-0800malikids@GMAIL.COM 5439 29 43_if you are nourished by Kelleman's teaching14_Laya B Jackson17_tolife18@JUNO.COM31_Sun, 18 Dec 2005 11:46:24 +0200450_us-ascii I just found this audio shiur by Rabbi Lieb Kelleman:
http://www.aishaudio.com/search/results.php?rc=email121105kl626bi&directk
w=121105#15190
it's free, but you do need to sign up which is an easy, free process.
(scroll down to the third session)

I find him to be so inspirational and encouraging.

Did you know that chinuch (education) is the same root as Chanuka?

Shavua tov and chag sameach,
Laya [...]39_18Dec200511:46:24+0200tolife18@JUNO.COM 5469 46 33_finding inspiration in daily life13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Sun, 18 Dec 2005 12:57:15 -0800543_iso-8859-1 I just got off the phone with a friend, who is struggling to find happiness in her life. Her dilemma is pretty classic: she has all the things she thought would make for a happy life (which in her case include a great husband and two young kids), and feels unfulfilled and empty. I shared my thoughts and experience with her - which I don't think were too helpful, since I can't offer a quick and easy solution to the problem, and often when others share how they find happiness with those who are unhappy, it seems like it is [...]44_18Dec200512:57:15-0800avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 5516 71 37_Re: finding inspiration in daily life13_Barbara Mazor19_barbmazor@YAHOO.COM31_Sun, 18 Dec 2005 19:59:16 -0800457_iso-8859-1 >>So, how have you found inspiration in your lives?<<

By doing for others. By making a contribution in someway that relies on my unique abilities - not just handing over money, I mean.

Although as mothers and homemakers we are constantly taking care of our families, and this is a chesed - it is also doing things for ourselves. Because we are so organically intertwined with our family - we are always getting back from them. [...]41_18Dec200519:59:16-0800barbmazor@YAHOO.COM 5588 72 37_Re: finding inspiration in daily life12_Yael Resnick22_njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM31_Sun, 18 Dec 2005 20:03:41 -0500444_us-ascii Avivah,

This is such a thought-provoking question! Some quick thoughts, don't
know if they'll be helpful or not...

For me personally, there are three things (off the top of my head)
that need to come together for me to feel like I'm in a happy groove:

1 - The day-to-day household practicalities and relationships in the
family need to be functioning fairly smoothly (i.e. "the house is
humming") [...]44_18Dec200520:03:41-0500njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM 5661 22 37_Re: finding inspiration in daily life12_Yael Resnick22_njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM31_Sun, 18 Dec 2005 20:12:06 -0500580_us-ascii Also, I'm wondering if your friend is taking care of herself --
eating well, getting enough sleep, taking breaks for herself, etc.?
If she's giving giving giving she might not feel happy even though
she loves her children and her husband.

Yael

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The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by
Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org,
a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and
an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...]44_18Dec200520:12:06-0500njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM 5684 102 74_Gratitude and Happiness [was: [TORCH-D] finding inspiration in daily life]11_Rick Dinitz16_dinitz@TIBCO.COM31_Mon, 19 Dec 2005 11:16:16 -0800633_ISO-8859-1 A maxim from the wise mother of a friend:

A grateful person is a happy person.

So if one wants to be happier, a person should try to be more more
grateful. Here's an exercise to flex the "gratitude muscles."

0. Repeat this maxim aloud daily.
1. Make a written list of everything in your life worthy of gratitude.
Include all kinds of gifts: spiritual, physical, familial,
material, intellectual, financial, social, creative, etc.
2. Pick one item from the list, and make it the subject of these
contemplations:
- Imagine what life would be like without this gift.
- Every [...]38_19Dec200511:16:16-0800dinitz@TIBCO.COM 5787 21 14_davening tapes25_Michael and Nadine Postol20_mnpostol@COMCAST.NET31_Tue, 20 Dec 2005 20:27:49 -0500562_ISO-8859-1 Does anyone know a source for davening (weekday Shacharit) tapes for
children? Specifically, nusach ashkenaz with sefardic pronunciation.
I appreciate the info,
Nadine

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a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and
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To unsubscribe email: TORCH-D-unsubscribe-request@SHAMASH.ORG42_20Dec200520:27:49-0500mnpostol@COMCAST.NET 5809 330 43_Re: jewish little house on the prarie books11_Susan Lapin20_suelap@EARTHLINK.NET31_Tue, 20 Dec 2005 18:08:05 -0800432_US-ASCII Beth,

I know of no series but there is a new publishing company run be a religious
Jew, Seraphim Press, and Robert Avrech who started the company has written
two books that tie in American history and Jews, and wants to publish more.
They are probably meant for around the ten-twelve year old range, I think.
The first one was "The Jewish Kid and the Apache Maiden" or something
similar to that. [...]42_20Dec200518:08:05-0800suelap@EARTHLINK.NET 6140 429 37_Re: finding inspiration in daily life11_Susan Lapin20_suelap@EARTHLINK.NET31_Mon, 19 Dec 2005 14:19:02 -0800635_US-ASCII Avivah,

Without knowing anything that might apply to this specific friend, the
Hebrew root for happiness (sameach) follows from the Hebrew word for growth
(tzameach). There's a principle that the same word with a "sin" naturally
follows that same word with a "tzadee". One of the best ways I've found to
feel satisfaction and happiness is to learn or tackle something new. I think
that was one of my greatest pleasures in hschooling - I was always learning
new things. Similarly when I've done something I didn't think I was
particularly competent in, even something silly like finding my way [...]42_19Dec200514:19:02-0800suelap@EARTHLINK.NET 6570 89 13_Re: HAPPINESS17_rjhendel@juno.com17_rjhendel@JUNO.COM29_Tue, 20 Dec 2005 00:38:05 GMT603_- I think the question was put very well. I ALREADY have everything
you need for happiness why am I not happy?
Of course, not everyone, ALREADY has everything needed. But if
you do, chances are that the problem is one of proportions and timing.
King Solomon put it well..."If you find honey only eat to satiation lest
you overeat and vomit."
Many Biblical commandments revolve on USING THINGS
THAT MAKE UP HAPPY IN PROPER PROPORTIONS e.g.
the cycle of 6 workdays vs 1 'vacation day' or the cycle
of abstention and intimacy in married life or the laws
and prohibitions [...]37_20Dec200500:38:05GMTrjhendel@JUNO.COM 6660 28 15_from scholastic14_Laya B Jackson17_tolife18@JUNO.COM31_Tue, 20 Dec 2005 11:06:57 +0200438_us-ascii http://teacher.scholastic.com/

This website is offering up to 50% discounts on some book collections.
If you click on the link above and scroll down, the link to the sale will
be on the right. There are also links to lesson plans and reproducable
"handouts" (workpages) and other teacher resources.

KT
Laya
Mom to Jeremiah 11 1/2 and Avital (fast approaching her first "two digit"
birthday!) [...]39_20Dec200511:06:57+0200tolife18@JUNO.COM 6689 363 47_Re: finding inspiration-- answer in mosaic form14_Laya B Jackson17_tolife18@JUNO.COM31_Tue, 20 Dec 2005 11:40:54 +0200551_us-ascii (generally I proof a long post like this... but here it is all raw and
sincere...)
Hi Avivah,
The thought that comes to my mind is a story that was in Stephen Covey's
book "7 Habits". He was riding on a subway having a pleasant morning,
when a man comes on with a bunch of kids. The kids are wild and unruly,
and one of them finally smacks the newspaper he's reading. He spoke to
the father at last and asked if he could please manage his kids behavior.
The father, who had a faraway look pulled himself back and [...]39_20Dec200511:40:54+0200tolife18@JUNO.COM 7053 34 14_davening tapes15_Michelle Miller25_michelletamar@HOTMAIL.COM31_Wed, 21 Dec 2005 16:51:50 -0700375_- Nadine,

Just today I received the most beautiful Shacharis davening CD! It is not
Sephardic pronounciation, but for any interested, it is for the Tehillat
Hashem siddur (Chabad) and it is beautiful, clear, and inspiring. I was
only planning to use if for my 7 year old, but I think even my eleven year
old will improve his pronounciation with this. [...]47_21Dec200516:51:50-0700michelletamar@HOTMAIL.COM 7088 24 23_Jewish Little House....15_Michelle Miller25_michelletamar@HOTMAIL.COM31_Wed, 21 Dec 2005 16:55:48 -0700674_- My son (11) just read "The Hebrew Kid and the Apache Maiden" and really
enjoyed it.

Michelle

_________________________________________________________________
Don’t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!
http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/

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a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and
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To unsubscribe email: TORCH-D-unsubscribe-request@SHAMASH.ORG47_21Dec200516:55:48-0700michelletamar@HOTMAIL.COM 7113 149 26_Re: Happiness? (long post)0_17_RENALEVIN@AOL.COM29_Thu, 22 Dec 2005 08:52:35 EST630_US-ASCII I heard a wonderful "vort" years ago from a very wise woman, mother of many
(double digits K"AH). She was speaking about how to find happiness and
satisfaction in a mothering "career". The question was how to be b'simcha. She said
that you need to change the letters of b'simcha around. There is a chazal
which says: ayn simcha eleh b'machshava. There is no happiness without thought
(like setting intention, which someone here mentioned). The letters of the word
b'simcha changed around are the same as machshava. (bays, shin/sin, mem,
ches, hay = b'simcha.
mem, ches, shin/sin, bays, hay = [...]37_22Dec200508:52:35ESTRENALEVIN@AOL.COM 7263 34 14_davening tapes18_Jamie Lichtenstein18_jamie@ALUM.MIT.EDU31_Thu, 22 Dec 2005 09:20:57 -0500573_us-ascii Nadine,

I can't recommend any tapes, but check out
http://www.tremontstreetshul.org/shulwiki?n=Main.LeadingServices where
there are MP3's for at least Shabbat services, but I think also for weekday
services.

Jamie

>Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 20:27:49 -0500
>From: Michael and Nadine Postol
>Subject: davening tapes
>
>Does anyone know a source for davening (weekday Shacharit) tapes for
>children? Specifically, nusach ashkenaz with sefardic pronunciation.
>I appreciate the info,
>Nadine [...]40_22Dec200509:20:57-0500jamie@ALUM.MIT.EDU 7298 43 18_Re: davening tapes18_Benjamin H Dickman19_bdickman@LUCENT.COM31_Thu, 22 Dec 2005 11:58:17 -0500787_us-ascii bs'd

http://www.sisuent.com/Music_Jewish.rtf

gives a fairly comprehensive list of children's audio and video
tapes (search the page for Savir to find Ariela Savir's sublist).

We liked Keter shel T'fila by Savir, geared for pre-K, K, 1st grade.

kol tuv & Chanukkah Sameach,
Benzion Dickman

On 12/20/2005 8:27 PM, Michael and Nadine Postol wrote:
> Does anyone know a source for davening (weekday Shacharit) tapes for
> children? Specifically, nusach ashkenaz with sefardic pronunciation.
> I appreciate the info,
> Nadine
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by
> Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org,
> a service of [...]41_22Dec200511:58:17-0500bdickman@LUCENT.COM 7342 43 25_CUring Teenage Immaturity16_Russell J Hendel17_rjhendel@JUNO.COM31_Thu, 22 Dec 2005 23:20:48 -0500386_us-ascii This topic has been discussed before so I thought I would post an
idea from my Rashi list.
Sometimes on my Rashi lists I use the CLIMACTIC nature of a verse
to show personality development.

In Gn37-02 we see 3 stages to teenage immaturity(Rashi)
- 17 year old NAAR (Lad)--Rashi gives a picturesque example
Joseph was excessively involved in Grooming [...]39_22Dec200523:20:48-0500rjhendel@JUNO.COM 7386 63 18_Re: davening tapes12_Rena Weisman19_renaweisman@COX.NET31_Sat, 24 Dec 2005 20:32:19 -0700322_iso-8859-1 Nadine,

I just opened my e-mail to post about this same CD. It is extremely clear
and a pure pleasure to listen to. I actually play it for my 3 year old to
introduce her to Davening and amazingly she knows a lot of Shaacharis
already; just from listening to it.

It is an amazing CD! [...]41_24Dec200520:32:19-0700renaweisman@COX.NET 7450 82 23_Re: finding inspiration13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Sun, 25 Dec 2005 12:16:57 -0800577_iso-8859-1 Thank you all for your wonderful responses to my question about finding happiness in daily life. They were all so well thought out and I appreciated every single answer.

I agree with just about everything written, but wanted especially to respond to Laya's comment about the need for a paradigm change. Not only is that necessary, but someone has to want to do it, to believe that a better life is possible for herself. Sometimes people get stuck in an unproductive mindset and find it very hard to break out of it. I shared many of the ideas during the [...]44_25Dec200512:16:57-0800avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 7533 31 24_College Early Admissions0_16_dgreens1@AOL.COM31_Tue, 27 Dec 2005 04:06:29 -0500426_us-ascii HI all,

It's been a long time. I have lots of questions, but a few are
pressing.
1. How does one decide on which college is a match for their family?
2. Are there some colleges better than others for keeping morals?
3. Are there special considerations as homeschoolers?
4. Is there a homeschool rabbi?
5. Is it better to keep younger students in state or home for
bachelor's program? [...]38_27Dec200504:06:29-0500dgreens1@AOL.COM 7565 52 46_Re: College Early Admissions Answer to Devorah16_Russell J Hendel17_rjhendel@JUNO.COM31_Tue, 27 Dec 2005 20:02:07 -0500397_us-ascii Devorah
Hi. Long time no see. I can do no better in answering you by telling you
what my mother did. There are 4 of us.

She didn't mind sending me out of state (I went to MIT) because I am very
strong willed and not influenced socially.

On the other hand she did not want my younger brother and sister going
out of state because they were easily influenced [...]39_27Dec200520:02:07-0500rjhendel@JUNO.COM 7618 52 46_Re: College Early Admissions Answer to Devorah13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Tue, 27 Dec 2005 17:33:13 -0800363_iso-8859-1 You have to be joking, Russell! You think kids only blame their parents until they get married!?! :) Wouldn't that be nice? I think blaming parents for whatever hasn't gone right in a person's life goes on just about forever for a lot of people!

Avivah

Wish you luck (Whatever you do you will get blaimed till they are
married:)) [...]44_27Dec200517:33:13-0800avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 7671 71 28_Re: College Early Admissions10_Larry Beck19_larry@BECKFORCE.COM31_Tue, 27 Dec 2005 21:25:26 -0500579_us-ascii Deborah,

I can tell you what we did. And it seem to be working well. You definitely
need to judge what to do for each child separately. Even some place like YU
might be too much for some kids.

We live in Atlanta. My oldest is at Georgia Tech, here in Atlanta. Number
two is trying to get accepted there for next year, which he probably will.
I've given them two choices. They could go to an Orthodox Jewish College,
like YU or Jerusalem College of Technology in Israel. Or they could go to
any secular school within driving distance [...]41_27Dec200521:25:26-0500larry@BECKFORCE.COM 7743 49 28_Re: College Early Admissions14_Evelyn Krieger18_ek2000@COMCAST.NET31_Wed, 28 Dec 2005 08:20:04 -0500658_iso-8859-1 I believe NCSY publishes a booklet for students regarding choosing a college
and being shomar mitzvos during the college years.
Evelyn
----- Original Message -----
From:
To:
Sent: Tuesday, December 27, 2005 4:06 AM
Subject: [TORCH-D] College Early Admissions

> HI all,
>
> It's been a long time. I have lots of questions, but a few are pressing.
> 1. How does one decide on which college is a match for their family?
> 2. Are there some colleges better than others for keeping morals?
> 3. Are there special considerations as homeschoolers?
> 4. Is there [...]40_28Dec200508:20:04-0500ek2000@COMCAST.NET 7793 382 12_Re: college?0_17_RENALEVIN@AOL.COM29_Wed, 28 Dec 2005 10:57:34 EST599_US-ASCII In a message dated 12/28/05 1:59:52 AM Eastern Standard Time,
LISTSERV@SHAMASH.ORG writes:

> It's been a long time. I have lots of questions, but a few are
> pressing.
> 1. How does one decide on which college is a match for their family?
> 2. Are there some colleges better than others for keeping morals?
> 3. Are there special considerations as homeschoolers?
> 4. Is there a homeschool rabbi?
> 5. Is it better to keep younger students in state or home for
> bachelor's program?
>
Deborah:
You are smart to be planning now. Think of college [...]37_28Dec200510:57:34ESTRENALEVIN@AOL.COM 8176 101 12_Re: college?14_Sigal Gottlieb23_sigalgottlieb@YAHOO.COM31_Thu, 29 Dec 2005 04:27:08 -0800538_iso-8859-1 Rena,

I agree with almost everything you wrote. But the
following

--- RENALEVIN@AOL.COM wrote:
>Then after gettting gen ed credits, a child can
transfer into a >state school. Of course, a state
college is cheaper than a
>name brand Ivy League school. A child can always
apply to a >higher caliber school for graduate level
study where it counts >anyway. At the bachelor's
level, most classes are taught by >teaching
assistants/graduate students anyway, so why spend the
>bucks? [...]45_29Dec200504:27:08-0800sigalgottlieb@YAHOO.COM 8278 144 12_Re: college?14_Bill Bernstein27_billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET31_Thu, 29 Dec 2005 12:00:07 -0600589_ISO-8859-1 I think I have issues with this. Obviously Sigal Gottlieb has much more
experience in the current college scene but that may in fact obscure the
larger picture.
My belief is that one can get an excellent education at, e.g. Harvard as
at, e.g. U.T. (whichever one you pick). The difference is that it is
hard to get a bad education at Harvard. But for someone who is
motivated and goal oriented in his education this will not make much
difference.
As far as grad programs, it will vary tremendously on the program and
the school. But I dont think [...]49_29Dec200512:00:07-0600billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET 8423 249 12_Re: college?14_Sigal Gottlieb23_sigalgottlieb@YAHOO.COM31_Thu, 29 Dec 2005 11:47:22 -0800616_iso-8859-1 Bill,

The main reason I wrote the email was to respond to
the assertion that most classes are taught by graduate
TAs. However, I do believe that the quality of
education at UTM (for example!) is not, and cannot be,
equal to the quality of education at Harvard, no
matter how motivated and organized and innovative an
undergraduate is! (Can you imagine if he took all that
motivation, organization, and innovation to Harvard?!)
That does not mean that I don't think you can get an
excellent education at (some) state schools, it also
does not mean that I think it [...]45_29Dec200511:47:22-0800sigalgottlieb@YAHOO.COM 8673 65 12_Re: college?14_Laya B Jackson17_tolife18@JUNO.COM31_Thu, 29 Dec 2005 23:39:38 +0200574_us-ascii When I was first getting a more in depth view of homeschooling (before I
was married or had kids), the woman I spoke with explained that college
is not necessary unless the child wanted a career path that needed some
kind of degree or certification. The best example I have is my family:
My husband is in real estate, building etc. He went to college for a bit
and today says, "what a waste that was, the best part of it was the
girls..." He quit school and went to work gaining his education through
life experience. He sometimes mentors [...]39_29Dec200523:39:38+0200tolife18@JUNO.COM 8739 84 12_Re: college?14_Bill Bernstein27_billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET31_Thu, 29 Dec 2005 19:25:14 -0600594_ISO-8859-1 I am reminded of the old adage "Send a pig to Harvard, he comes out a
pig."
"The best education" is an incredibly subjective concept. It is like
"the best yeshiva." There is no such animal. The best educational
institution is the one that the student will do the best at, will learn
the most and will grow the most, intellectually and socially.
It might be that the general educational tenor at Harvard is better than
at Boston University. But that is only in general. More specific to
the student is whether he finds a compatible peer group that shares [...]49_29Dec200519:25:14-0600billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET 8824 146 12_Re: college?14_Sigal Gottlieb23_sigalgottlieb@YAHOO.COM31_Thu, 29 Dec 2005 17:28:42 -0800617_iso-8859-1 Bill,

I totally agree. In terms of the best education I
mean, of course, on average -- or as you put it, the
general tenor. (Do we treat this differently from "the
best hospital" or "the best doctor"?!)

sigal

--- Bill Bernstein
wrote:

> I am reminded of the old adage "Send a pig to
> Harvard, he comes out a
> pig."
> "The best education" is an incredibly subjective
> concept. It is like
> "the best yeshiva." There is no such animal. The
> best educational
> institution is the one that the student will do [...]45_29Dec200517:28:42-0800sigalgottlieb@YAHOO.COM 8971 57 12_Re: college?13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Thu, 29 Dec 2005 17:40:40 -0800365_iso-8859-1 I wonder if anyone under the age of 60 believes there is such a thing as job security anymore. My perception is that most people see college as necessary to just get their foot in the door at any job, just as a high school diploma was necessary twenty years ago. To get down to nitty gritty specifics, what are examples of 'more lucrative avenues'? [...]44_29Dec200517:40:40-0800avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 9029 50 7_college15_Michelle Miller25_michelletamar@HOTMAIL.COM31_Thu, 29 Dec 2005 18:43:57 -0700563_- My husband's father never finished college and started a corporation
(Hallmark Data Systems in Chicago) which he sold for into the seven figures.
My husband took a few college courses but decided thirty years ago to
start his own businesses too. My own father is a jeweler (still working 4
days a week at 84). My mother got a master's degree in nursing in her 40s.
I went to college for two years in my mid-thirties (had 4.0) and found it a
complete waste of my time. Even then, after waiting so long, it didn't
serve me. My adult son [...]47_29Dec200518:43:57-0700michelletamar@HOTMAIL.COM 9080 69 12_Re: college?14_Bill Bernstein27_billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET31_Thu, 29 Dec 2005 22:01:28 -0600563_ISO-8859-1 Avivah, I think you show your age when you mention the high school
diploma of 20 years ago. I think 40 years is more like it. Twenty
years ago I was in college--no, actually had been graduated already.
Anyway, what I have told my daughter is that she needs a skill,
something that people will pay her for. She asked if a degree in
psychology would do it. She is so young.
Fortunately she has developed an interest in sewing, has an excellent
teacher, and seems to have some proficiency. That is not to say I want
her to be [...]49_29Dec200522:01:28-0600billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET 9150 34 7_college15_Michelle Miller25_michelletamar@HOTMAIL.COM31_Thu, 29 Dec 2005 22:04:07 -0700575_- Bill,

My father learned watchmaking in his 20s by apprenticing. He still spends
time at his bench in his jewelry store everyday at 84! He absolutely loves
it! My brother works beside him as a goldsmith (he's 43). He learned his
craft in Lancaster, PA at a special trade school just for that. I think it
took about a year of study if I can remember (this was 20 years ago). I
have another brother who is a firefighter. I have to tell you
though....most people don't really like the old wind-up watches anymore. My
dad's bread and butter are [...]47_29Dec200522:04:07-0700michelletamar@HOTMAIL.COM 9185 52 12_Re: college?11_Nechama Cox20_nechama@BOREALIS.COM31_Fri, 30 Dec 2005 07:33:44 -0500381_us-ascii Sigal

>The main reason I wrote the email was to respond to
>the assertion that most classes are taught by graduate
>TAs. However, I do believe that the quality of
>education at UTM (for example!) is not, and cannot be,
>equal to the quality of education at Harvard, no
>matter how motivated and organized and innovative an
>undergraduate is! [...]42_30Dec200507:33:44-0500nechama@BOREALIS.COM 9238 117 12_Re: college?13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Fri, 30 Dec 2005 08:35:36 -0800373_iso-8859-1 I guess I am dating myself. But which way am I showing my age to be, Bill, older or younger? :)

Twenty years ago, I think that there were still places a person could get in at an entry level position with a high school diploma and work their way up - all of us probably know someone like that. In the sixties, many people didn't need more than that. [...]44_30Dec200508:35:36-0800avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 9356 49 12_Re: college?10_Zara Haimo14_zara@HAIMO.NET31_Fri, 30 Dec 2005 09:30:02 -0800531_iso-8859-1 > They heard good
> lectures, but the intellectual stimulation from peers was not the
> same.

I interview students for Harvard every year - part of the format is for them
to quiz me in return about the school. The one thing I always tell them is
that the interaction with the other students will be the one of the best
parts of their education. Part of my writeup about each candidate for the
admissions office is an assessment of how much he/she would contribute to
his/her classmates. [...]36_30Dec200509:30:02-0800zara@HAIMO.NET