1 SHAMASH.ORG /usr/www/wwwhc/listserv/archives/torch-d November 2005 2 17 39_Re: country wide Jewish lending library14_Moriah Chesler17_merilyn@ABSOL.COM31_Mon, 31 Oct 2005 23:47:11 -0500530_- Thanks very much for this pointer. This is very helpful. I haven't browsed
through their catalog yet, but this is something that I am looking for, and
hopefully, will be available for Jews outside CA. Thanks!!!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by
Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org,
a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and
an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...]39_31Oct200523:47:11-0500merilyn@ABSOL.COM 20 36 69_Re: was: large homeschooling families, now lack of homemaking support14_Moriah Chesler17_merilyn@ABSOL.COM31_Mon, 31 Oct 2005 23:58:51 -0500491_- Don't feel discouraged, Avivah. I think perhaps, Jewish mothers are modest
and do not advertise their homekeeping secrets and their parenting secrets
that much, relative to non-Jewish mothers? Even the Torah/Chumash doesn't
talk about how Leah raises her seven children (or more, depending upon the
midrash on the sons having twin sisters!). In the Book of Shoftim, we read
about some of the shoftim who have 70 kids, but they don't talk about how
they raised them. [...]39_31Oct200523:58:51-0500merilyn@ABSOL.COM 57 107 69_Re: was: large homeschooling families, now lack of homemaking support0_21_YiddisheMameh@AOL.COM28_Tue, 1 Nov 2005 07:03:31 EST665_US-ASCII In a message dated 10/31/2005 10:29:53 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM writes:

I find it very painful that I can find significantly more inspiration and
support from xian sources than I can from Torah sources.

WOW... can I relate to this statement, or what??

Shalom,

Chana

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
May 5766 see good things for us all. Indeed may Mashiach arise in the Galil!
(Zohar 1, 119a).
_http://www.gogumogog.com_ (http://www.gogumogog.com/)
_http://www.qeren.net_ (http://www.qeren.net/)
_http://www.koshertorah.com_ (http://www.koshertorah.com/) [...]40_1Nov200507:03:31ESTYiddisheMameh@AOL.COM 165 381 69_Re: was: large homeschooling families, now lack of homemaking support8_S Sloman18_ssloman@NETLAB.COM30_Tue, 1 Nov 2005 09:51:12 -0500716_us-ascii Me, too. In fact, it was one of the prime motivators for me to start
this list.

-Shoshana

-----Original Message-----
From: Torah-Centered Homeschooling [mailto:TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG] On
Behalf Of YiddisheMameh@AOL.COM
Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2005 7:04 AM
To: TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG
Subject: Re: [TORCH-D] was: large homeschooling families, now lack of
homemaking support

In a message dated 10/31/2005 10:29:53 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM writes:
I find it very painful that I can find significantly more inspiration
and support from xian sources than I can from Torah sources.
WOW... can I relate to this statement, or what?? [...]39_1Nov200509:51:12-0500ssloman@NETLAB.COM 547 273 30_OT - digest of nutrition posts13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM30_Tue, 1 Nov 2005 06:57:56 -0800440_iso-8859-1 From: "Mandy Oeschger"
To:
Subject: Dangers of Soy
Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 21:43:33 -0600
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;

My very active boys 4 and 2 become more relaxed it seems after a nice steak dinner ( we try to do this on Rosh Chodesh :-) ) The two of them will split a large steak sometimes LOL! There must be something to it! What do you think? [...]43_1Nov200506:57:56-0800avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 821 62 26_lack of homemaking support14_Sigal Gottlieb23_sigalgottlieb@YAHOO.COM30_Tue, 1 Nov 2005 10:39:51 -0800644_iso-8859-1 I think that this lack of support is not limited to
home-makers. I believe that women's choices, and
women's life-events in general are not supported and
praised. I would much rather see women encouraged to
figure out what is right for their families and
themselves than praise and support for one choice over
the other.

While I believe that children deserve available
parents, I don't believe that all women are made for
being home-makers. (I also don't believe all men are
made for being home-makers). I don't believe any one
choice is always better. I think that many
combinations may [...]44_1Nov200510:39:51-0800sigalgottlieb@YAHOO.COM 884 170 9_Halloween8_S Sloman18_ssloman@NETLAB.COM30_Tue, 1 Nov 2005 17:00:47 -0500453_us-ascii How do y'all explain/deal with Halloween w/you kids?

-Shoshana

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by
Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org,
a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and
an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/

To unsubscribe email: TORCH-D-unsubscribe-request@SHAMASH.ORG39_1Nov200517:00:47-0500ssloman@NETLAB.COM 1055 31 15_lack of support15_Michelle Miller25_michelletamar@HOTMAIL.COM30_Tue, 1 Nov 2005 13:25:39 -0700477_- I would have to take exception to supporting everybody, although I don't
mean to be contentious. When observant women have babies and immediately
place them in daycare/babysitting situations within a few months (and this
is common) so they can work on their degree,or support husbands in kollel,
instead of deferring for the baby's sake....I can't support that. Perhaps
they should have deferred marriage and childbearing until they got all that
done. [...]46_1Nov200513:25:39-0700michelletamar@HOTMAIL.COM 1087 47 13_Re: Halloween15_Alison Jacobson23_alisonziskind@YAHOO.COM30_Tue, 1 Nov 2005 14:52:46 -0800530_iso-8859-1 I try and basically explain that we don't celebrate it
because it's connected with avodah zara. But it's the
time of year we get our Purim costumes. :) (And then
we launch into a discussion of Purim and its'
meanings, as well as how much fun it is.) I guess, if
I was really on top of my game, I would emphasize how,
on Purim, we GIVE shaloch manos, versus simply taking
candy, and how much better it is to be a giver than a
taker. But that's assuming I'm on top of my game that
day. :) [...]44_1Nov200514:52:46-0800alisonziskind@YAHOO.COM 1135 28 13_Re: Halloween14_Moriah Chesler17_merilyn@ABSOL.COM30_Tue, 1 Nov 2005 18:30:03 -0500351_- We don't really have a secular calendar around, and didn't realize that it's
that day of the year, until I spoke with a friend who's Jewish who mentioned
it, last night. So, I remembered to close the drapes and to leave the front
porch lights off, to signify that we don't want visitors, like we have
maintained for the past years. [...]38_1Nov200518:30:03-0500merilyn@ABSOL.COM 1164 145 30_Re: lack of homemaking support13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM30_Tue, 1 Nov 2005 17:23:07 -0800608_iso-8859-1 There is a very fine line between being supportive of everyone, giving ambiguous messages as to what is something to strive for, and finally, saying that everything is equally good. I don't think it would be healthy to assume that one model works equally well for every family, but there are general life principles that when violated, have consequences. I am not talking about religious principles, but rather natural principles on which the world operates. It becomes very risky to encourage everyone's choices without presenting some general model that we want our society to function on. [...]43_1Nov200517:23:07-0800avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 1310 92 19_Re: lack of support14_Sigal Gottlieb23_sigalgottlieb@YAHOO.COM30_Tue, 1 Nov 2005 16:53:03 -0800387_iso-8859-1 Michelle,

I understand your point, because my heart breaks for
these babies as well. However, I believe that if
people are truly making the decision based on what is
best for their entire family, and not because of
social norms which make this the only acceptable mode
of life, or a form of status seeking, than this too
can be a valid decision. [...]44_1Nov200516:53:03-0800sigalgottlieb@YAHOO.COM 1403 38 13_Re: Halloween14_Bill Bernstein27_billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET30_Tue, 1 Nov 2005 18:49:10 -0600674_windows-1252 My kids went as the Lubavitcher rebbe.
Bill Bernstein
Nashville

S Sloman wrote:

> How do y’all explain/deal with Halloween w/you kids?
>
> -Shoshana
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network
> , a service of Hebrew College
> , which offers online courses and an online
> MA in Jewish Studies .
>
> To unsubscribe email TORCH-D-unsubscribe-request@SHAMASH.ORG
>
> [...]48_1Nov200518:49:10-0600billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET 1442 227 13_Re: Halloween14_Mandy Oeschger23_sailorswife@KNOLOGY.NET30_Tue, 1 Nov 2005 20:04:32 -0600406_iso-8859-1 I tell my kids that it is a pagan holiday such as a couple of other biggies on the secular calender and that we do not observe those days. I then pull out Torah and try to explain how we are not to do as the nations do.

Mandy

----- Original Message -----
From: S Sloman
To: TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG
Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2005 4:00 PM
Subject: [TORCH-D] Halloween [...]44_1Nov200520:04:32-0600sailorswife@KNOLOGY.NET 1670 60 13_Re: Halloween14_Evelyn Krieger18_ek2000@COMCAST.NET30_Tue, 1 Nov 2005 21:16:25 -0500582_iso-8859-1 Wow, Moriah. No secular calendar? That is amazing. I don't think this could
work for most of us. The best thing is a Jewish calendar with the secular
dates, of course that doesn't list the xtrian holidays. We have followed
the advise of a modern orthodox rabbi that it is okay to give out candy as a
way of being "neighborly". I know someone who once gave out shabbos
candles if the kids were Jewish! It's very easy to explain the origins of
Halloween and then easy for kids to see how unJewish it is.
Evelyn
----- Original Message -----
[...]39_1Nov200521:16:25-0500ek2000@COMCAST.NET 1731 25 9_Halloween15_Michelle Miller25_michelletamar@HOTMAIL.COM30_Tue, 1 Nov 2005 20:31:22 -0700763_- We've never done it and my kids tell people it's because we're Jewish, which
is pretty funny when they are telling Jewish people who observe it. They
know it is pagan, death oriented, creepy, ghoulish, and bad for your teeth:)

Michelle

_________________________________________________________________
FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar – get it now!
http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by
Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org,
a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and
an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...]46_1Nov200520:31:22-0700michelletamar@HOTMAIL.COM 1757 39 15_lack of support15_Michelle Miller25_michelletamar@HOTMAIL.COM30_Tue, 1 Nov 2005 20:46:45 -0700340_- Aviva,

What a great hashgacha pratis story! I always knew I wanted to stay home
and nurse my babies, because I saw my mother do it (she was from Europe).
She was the only one on the block that didn't use a bottle. All the moms
stayed home with their kids except one, and we all felt sorry for her. It
was the 50s. [...]46_1Nov200520:46:45-0700michelletamar@HOTMAIL.COM 1797 30 12_Thanksgiving15_Michelle Miller25_michelletamar@HOTMAIL.COM30_Tue, 1 Nov 2005 20:51:31 -0700521_- Moriah's comment about Thanksgiving has me curious how many of you celebrate
Thanksgiving. I know there are different viewpoints (all valid I believe).
I asked an Aish HaTorah rabbi about it and he said it is fine, although he
didn't observe it. He said there is no halachic restriction against it.

Personally, I have always celebrated it. I love America, love being an
American and am happy I get do have my kosher, organic turkey to celebrate
it. My kids also like that we take off school. [...]46_1Nov200520:51:31-0700michelletamar@HOTMAIL.COM 1828 54 30_Re: lack of homemaking support14_MORIAH Chesler17_merilyn@ABSOL.COM30_Tue, 1 Nov 2005 23:47:44 -0500529_- >What we as individuals, families, and a nation promote will determine our
>future. I would rather my children and grandchildren grew up in a world in
>which the basic assumption was that children should be nurtured and >
attended >to, even when it sometimes means that a parent will have to defer
some of >his/her aspirations, and both parents might have to live on one
salary and >therefore less money than they would like. Wouldn't it be a
better world for >us all if that was the prevailing premise? [...]38_1Nov200523:47:44-0500merilyn@ABSOL.COM 1883 61 30_Re: lack of homemaking support14_Sigal Gottlieb23_sigalgottlieb@YAHOO.COM30_Wed, 2 Nov 2005 03:58:52 -0800452_iso-8859-1 Avivah,

When I spoke about making decisions that are right for
the family, I meant that the very real needs of
children need to be taken into account, not that the
adults should do selfishly whatever they want.

On the other hand, I don't think that having a loving
baby-sitter or grandparent watch children for a few
hours a day is unhealthy for them. They key is in
"loving" and in "few", as in 2 or 3. [...]44_2Nov200503:58:52-0800sigalgottlieb@YAHOO.COM 1945 124 13_Re: Halloween16_Avigayil Simpson26_avigayil_simpson@YAHOO.COM30_Wed, 2 Nov 2005 04:29:23 -0800469_iso-8859-1 We live in Israel. Not an issue. Hmmmm. What a concept! :-)

S Sloman wrote:

How do y’all explain/deal with Halloween w/you kids?

-Shoshana

---------------------------------

The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network, a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies.
To unsubscribe email TORCH-D-unsubscribe-request@SHAMASH.ORG [...]47_2Nov200504:29:23-0800avigayil_simpson@YAHOO.COM 2070 114 27_another OT nutrition digest13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM30_Wed, 2 Nov 2005 06:09:16 -0800518_iso-8859-1 Shalom shalom,
Mandy

I have a 7 yr old who insists on being a vegetarian because she loves
animals. Halacha actually says something about this....this is from the Kabbalah
but...some souls are reincarnated (gilgulim) as kosher animals to be eaten as a
way to help them do tikkun (rectify) of their past sins. I have read that
some are not spiritually advanced enough to eat such meat for the proper
reasons, and so should not eat it unless they can do it in the proper spirit. [...]43_2Nov200506:09:16-0800avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 2185 119 30_Re: lack of homemaking support13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM30_Wed, 2 Nov 2005 06:21:32 -0800310_iso-8859-1 Of course every person was created unique, to fulfill his role in H-shem's plan for the world. There is obviously an ideal behavior in this world, and the fact that people are individuals doesn't take away from that. It simply means they use their gifts and abilities in the way only they can. [...]43_2Nov200506:21:32-0800avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 2305 87 16_Re: Thanksgiving16_Avigayil Simpson26_avigayil_simpson@YAHOO.COM30_Wed, 2 Nov 2005 06:14:04 -0800537_iso-8859-1 Hi,

I remember as a kid my Mom reaching this crossroads of "do we or don't we" about Thanksgiving.

She decided we do on the grounds that a) don't we have as much to be thankful for as anyone else, in our own way? and b) America has been, up until now, as much of a religious haven for the Jews as it was for the original Pilgrims who instituted the day of thanks. Both parents decided that to emphasis the purpose of the day, we would each state out loud while sitting around the turkey table, one thing we [...]47_2Nov200506:14:04-0800avigayil_simpson@YAHOO.COM 2393 101 13_Re: Halloween16_Avigayil Simpson26_avigayil_simpson@YAHOO.COM30_Wed, 2 Nov 2005 06:02:54 -0800594_iso-8859-1 In our pre-Jewish days, I remember my Mom once gave out those mini boxes of raisins as her way of protesting the sugar consumption by these kids at this time of year. I don't remember anyone coming back to OUR house the following year! :-)

Evelyn Krieger wrote:Wow, Moriah. No secular calendar? That is amazing. I don't think this could
work for most of us. The best thing is a Jewish calendar with the secular
dates, of course that doesn't list the xtrian holidays. We have followed
the advise of a modern orthodox rabbi that it is okay to [...]47_2Nov200506:02:54-0800avigayil_simpson@YAHOO.COM 2495 111 13_Re: Halloween14_Moriah Chesler17_merilyn@ABSOL.COM30_Wed, 2 Nov 2005 09:55:04 -0500406_- We have 4 kinds of Jewish calendars:

1) from hebcal.com, which has specific candle-lighting times for our
zipcode, and has no secular holidays listed in it - all JEwish but follow
the secular months. I use that to fill in apptments for doctors, etc.

2) from Aish.com, AishLuach, that sits on my computer, I use that for
whenever I need to reference a calendar on the computer [...]38_2Nov200509:55:04-0500merilyn@ABSOL.COM 2607 420 43_Re: lack of homemaking support? (long post)0_17_RENALEVIN@AOL.COM28_Wed, 2 Nov 2005 10:40:15 EST600_US-ASCII WOW, have we touched the third rail of Jewish life here or what?!!?

It is nobody's imagination that there is a general lack of awareness/support
for the importance of mothering and homemaking ideals in the Torah world. This
is not by design but rather by default. We have fallen very far from what the
Torah ideal is. This is a sociologic phenomena, not really endorsed by
gedolim (more on this later) but just something that has "happened". And not to
cause anybody pain, but I think that as a Torah-Dik society, we are beginning to
see the chickens come home [...]36_2Nov200510:40:15ESTRENALEVIN@AOL.COM 3028 130 13_Re: Halloween0_21_YiddisheMameh@AOL.COM28_Wed, 2 Nov 2005 11:31:03 EST395_UTF-8 In a message dated 11/1/2005 5:01:33 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
ssloman@NETLAB.COM writes:

How do y’all explain/deal with Halloween w/you kids?
-Shoshana

I tell mine it is both an xian holiday and a pagan one, therefore, not
Jewish.

Its origins are in pre-xian Celtic paganism, but the xians adopted it and
xianized it. Either way, its not Jewish. [...]40_2Nov200511:31:03ESTYiddisheMameh@AOL.COM 3159 124 19_Re: lack of support0_21_YiddisheMameh@AOL.COM28_Wed, 2 Nov 2005 11:31:55 EST593_US-ASCII In a message dated 11/1/2005 7:25:05 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
michelletamar@HOTMAIL.COM writes:

I would have to take exception to supporting everybody, although I don't
mean to be contentious. When observant women have babies and immediately
place them in daycare/babysitting situations within a few months (and this
is common) so they can work on their degree,or support husbands in kollel,
instead of deferring for the baby's sake....I can't support that. Perhaps
they should have deferred marriage and childbearing until they got all that
done. [...]40_2Nov200511:31:55ESTYiddisheMameh@AOL.COM 3284 137 13_Re: Halloween0_21_YiddisheMameh@AOL.COM28_Wed, 2 Nov 2005 11:33:44 EST459_US-ASCII In a message dated 11/1/2005 7:26:35 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
merilyn@ABSOL.COM writes:

We don't really have a secular calendar around, and didn't realize that it's
that day of the year, until I spoke with a friend who's Jewish who mentioned
it, last night. So, I remembered to close the drapes and to leave the front
porch lights off, to signify that we don't want visitors, like we have
maintained for the past years. [...]40_2Nov200511:33:44ESTYiddisheMameh@AOL.COM 3422 137 22_calendars and holidays10_Zara Haimo14_zara@HAIMO.NET30_Wed, 2 Nov 2005 08:34:35 -0800503_iso-8859-1 We have both general and Hebrew calendars at home. Our general calendars list the holidays of several religions and countries. We have neighbors and friends from a wide range of backgrounds and religions, so it helps if we know what's going on with them, in the community where we live, and even in the world at large. Plus, doctors and other appointments and all my business meetings are planned on the secular calendar - I don't know how we could function with just a Hebrew calendar. [...]35_2Nov200508:34:35-0800zara@HAIMO.NET 3560 195 42_Moving to an observant Jewish neighborhood0_21_YiddisheMameh@AOL.COM28_Wed, 2 Nov 2005 11:51:12 EST367_US-ASCII Shalom to all,

I don't want to bore you with our family's long complicated story....suffice
it to say I have struggled to raise our three children Jewishly, even under
incredibly difficult circumstances.

Next summer for the FIRST time since my marriage, we will be able to afford
to live in a truly observant Jewish neighborhood. [...]40_2Nov200511:51:12ESTYiddisheMameh@AOL.COM 3756 44 16_Re: Thanksgiving14_Bill Bernstein27_billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET30_Wed, 2 Nov 2005 09:29:09 -0600575_ISO-8859-1 Since it is just the 4 of us here I never make the "traditional"
thanksgiving meal, especially since it is on Thurs and we would have too
many leftovers before Shabbos.
But I do make sure to make something, even a turkey sandwich, and
mention the day to my kids. I feel it is very important to celebrate
civic holidays like Thanksgiving and July 4 and recognize how fortunate
we are to be living here and the essential goodness that America stands
for. It is an issue of hakaras hatov (gratitude) to me.
Bill Bernstein
Nashville TN [...]48_2Nov200509:29:09-0600billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET 3801 29 41_Support for nursing (was lack of support)17_Rachel Turniansky28_rachelturniansky@HOTMAIL.COM30_Wed, 2 Nov 2005 14:16:42 -0500529_- >home and nurse my babies, because I saw my mother do it (she was from
>Europe). She was the only one on the block that didn't use a bottle. All
>the moms stayed home with their kids except one, and we all felt sorry for
>her. It was the 50s.

One of my biggest supports for nursing was my step-mother-in-law who nursed
her babies with encouragemnt by her husband. It was during the 40's and
there was milk rationing due to the war!
She said that she agreed to it as long as he got up for the 2 am [...]49_2Nov200514:16:42-0500rachelturniansky@HOTMAIL.COM 3831 117 46_Re: Moving to an observant Jewish neighborhood10_Zara Haimo14_zara@HAIMO.NET30_Wed, 2 Nov 2005 12:21:59 -0800569_iso-8859-1 Chana, you should move to Northern California - you'd fit right in here. There aren't many frum schools around, so homeschooling isn't seen as so weird a choice. We get great produce year round, so even the meat eaters here serve lots of fruits and vegetables with meals and vegetarians have no trouble at all. One of my friends even avoids cooked foods - she's mostly on a raw vegan diet and would probably starve to death in Philly. Another friend and her homeschooled son bike everywhere to get to various events even if it takes them hours each way [...]35_2Nov200512:21:59-0800zara@HAIMO.NET 3949 31 24_moving to observant hood15_Michelle Miller25_michelletamar@HOTMAIL.COM30_Wed, 2 Nov 2005 15:23:57 -0700446_- Chana,

My youngest also goes to Chabad Hebrew school for the "social" and she has
become very close with the rabbi's daughter. It has been wonderful. For my
boy, the kids in the older class were just too secular and "worldly" for him
and I made the decision to cut it; he understood.

We have never had our homeschooling questioned by the several Chabads we are
involved with and that is primarily where we daven. [...]46_2Nov200515:23:57-0700michelletamar@HOTMAIL.COM 3981 123 28_Re: moving to observant hood0_21_YiddisheMameh@AOL.COM28_Wed, 2 Nov 2005 17:45:52 EST423_US-ASCII In a message dated 11/2/2005 5:42:02 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
michelletamar@HOTMAIL.COM writes:

Chana,

My youngest also goes to Chabad Hebrew school for the "social" and she has
become very close with the rabbi's daughter. It has been wonderful. For my
boy, the kids in the older class were just too secular and "worldly" for him
and I made the decision to cut it; he understood. [...]40_2Nov200517:45:52ESTYiddisheMameh@AOL.COM 4105 181 46_Re: Moving to an observant Jewish neighborhood0_21_YiddisheMameh@AOL.COM28_Wed, 2 Nov 2005 17:48:32 EST624_US-ASCII In a message dated 11/2/2005 5:41:39 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
zara@HAIMO.NET writes:

Chana, you should move to Northern California - you'd fit right in here.
There aren't many frum schools around, so homeschooling isn't seen as so weird
a choice. We get great produce year round, so even the meat eaters here
serve lots of fruits and vegetables with meals and vegetarians have no trouble at
all. One of my friends even avoids cooked foods - she's mostly on a raw
vegan diet and would probably starve to death in Philly. Another friend and her
homeschooled son bike everywhere to [...]40_2Nov200517:48:32ESTYiddisheMameh@AOL.COM 4287 38 26_Re: calendars and holidays14_Laya B Jackson17_tolife18@JUNO.COM30_Thu, 3 Nov 2005 01:20:30 +0200606_us-ascii I use the Tzfat calendar. It does not have the secular or xtian holidays
on it but it is both the Jewish and Gregorian calendar so we can speak
the same language with others. (You can see this calendar at:
http://nachalnovea.com/Calendar/calendar5766.htm)

I have to say, not only is it great that we don't see or notice about St
Pat's, St Val, xmas, and all, but "l'havdil" the stores here all cater to
the needs of the Jewish holidays. When it's Pesach, the cleaning
supplies are all on sale and in the center, along with dishes and serving
plates. Sufganiot are [...]38_3Nov200501:20:30+0200tolife18@JUNO.COM 4326 92 46_Re: Moving to an observant Jewish neighborhood14_Chaya Phillips27_callmeforavon@BELLSOUTH.NET30_Wed, 2 Nov 2005 16:07:09 -0500746_iso-8859-1
Is that the community that Rabbi Kaminetsky lives in?
Chaya Phillips
Certified Avon Beauty Advisor
561-674-2099
view my website
http://www.youravon.com/chayaphillips

----- Original Message -----
From: YiddisheMameh@AOL.COM
To: TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG
Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2005 11:51 AM
Subject: [TORCH-D] Moving to an observant Jewish neighborhood

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by
Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org,
a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and
an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...]48_2Nov200516:07:09-0500callmeforavon@BELLSOUTH.NET 4419 736 52_Re: large homeschooling families and lack of support11_Susan Lapin20_suelap@EARTHLINK.NET30_Wed, 2 Nov 2005 18:57:29 -0800572_us-ascii Not fair you guys. I'm supposed to be weaning myself off this list and
then Avivah posts this and there's also a discussion of homemaking not
being very supported as a career in the Jewish community, and I've got
to jump in. Avivah, I was going to respond to your post by saying that I
found hschooling seven kids a breeze and I don't know what your problem
is, but I don't think dry humor works very well on the internet. Maybe I
don't even qualify to answer because you stipulated "homeschools more
than seven kids" which lets me out, [...]41_2Nov200518:57:29-0800suelap@EARTHLINK.NET 5156 102 46_Re: Moving to an observant Jewish neighborhood13_Barbara Mazor19_barbmazor@YAHOO.COM30_Wed, 2 Nov 2005 20:21:53 -0800420_iso-8859-1 Chana -

First of all, it isn't a bore! I want to tell you how
happy I am for you about the impending move. I have
read your stories over the years about your situation
and I so happy to hear your news.

Second, I think Zara's advice about visiting the
community is very worthwhile. I agree wholeheartedly.
You really need to spend sometime there and get to
know the place. [...]40_2Nov200520:21:53-0800barbmazor@YAHOO.COM 5259 893 52_Re: large homeschooling families and lack of support8_S Sloman18_ssloman@NETLAB.COM30_Thu, 3 Nov 2005 05:39:25 -0500434_us-ascii As usual, Susan, you have posted a wealth of information and ideas.

You make very good points about the relative size of our community and
the lack of general resources (in terms of time and energy) for writing
books. (And I'll bet a collection of emails wouldn't be useless. A
sample of the great contributions from listmembers over the past 11
years could be helpful to young mothers starting out.) [...]39_3Nov200505:39:25-0500ssloman@NETLAB.COM 6153 160 9_Avian Flu15_Alison Jacobson23_alisonziskind@YAHOO.COM30_Thu, 3 Nov 2005 01:22:47 -0800339_iso-8859-1 So am I the ONLY one who is so glad to be
homeschooling during all the panic about the flu
spreading to so many school children? (Though with
the stress from Elizabeth's death, we were seriously
considering enrolling my son in school 3 times a
week.) I'm reconsidering this in the event of a flu
outreak. [...]44_3Nov200501:22:47-0800alisonziskind@YAHOO.COM 6314 169 46_Re: Moving to an observant Jewish neighborhood0_21_YiddisheMameh@AOL.COM28_Thu, 3 Nov 2005 08:01:07 EST444_US-ASCII In a message dated 11/2/2005 11:22:16 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
barbmazor@YAHOO.COM writes:

Second, I think Zara's advice about visiting the
community is very worthwhile. I agree wholeheartedly.
You really need to spend sometime there and get to
know the place.

Have you already made a purchse in this neighborhood
or is it your first choice and you want to know if it
is likely to work for you? [...]40_3Nov200508:01:07ESTYiddisheMameh@AOL.COM 6484 118 46_Re: Moving to an observant Jewish neighborhood0_21_YiddisheMameh@AOL.COM28_Thu, 3 Nov 2005 08:03:21 EST737_US-ASCII In a message dated 11/2/2005 11:13:13 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
callmeforavon@BELLSOUTH.NET writes:


Is that the community that Rabbi Kaminetsky lives in?
Chaya Phillips
Certified Avon Beauty Advisor
561-674-2099

I think so!
Here is a website by and about the community:

_http://www.jcor.org_ (http://www.jcor.org)

Chana
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
May 5766 see good things for us all. Indeed may Mashiach arise in the Galil!
(Zohar 1, 119a).
_http://www.gogumogog.com_ (http://www.gogumogog.com/)
_http://www.qeren.net_ (http://www.qeren.net/)
_http://www.koshertorah.com_ (http://www.koshertorah.com/) [...]40_3Nov200508:03:21ESTYiddisheMameh@AOL.COM 6603 333 52_Re: large homeschooling families and lack of support12_Rena Weisman19_renaweisman@COX.NET30_Thu, 3 Nov 2005 07:22:07 -0700553_iso-8859-1 I've been reading this discussion with great interest and wondering if I had anything valuable to add.

After going to a local frum "Mommy & Me" group yesterday and reading Susan's post, I thought I'd just post a little something.

A little background information: I have K"AH 2 little girls, one about to be 3 and the other about to be 1; I have 12 siblings; I work part-time (3 hours a day) out of the house and just passed up a big promotion because I could only have it if I would return to work full-time. (I don't want [...]40_3Nov200507:22:07-0700renaweisman@COX.NET 6937 96 19_Re: : thanksgiving?0_17_RENALEVIN@AOL.COM28_Thu, 3 Nov 2005 09:31:57 EST612_US-ASCII In a message dated 11/3/05 1:54:28 AM Eastern Standard Time,
LISTSERV@SHAMASH.ORG writes:

> Since it is just the 4 of us here I never make the "traditional"
> thanksgiving meal, especially since it is on Thurs and we would have too
> many leftovers before Shabbos

My mom A"H always made a point of having a HUGE Thanksgiving dinner. It was
the only "holiday" that Mom could invite family over (we could not eat at
extended family's homes, not Kosher) and they could eat and hang out and there was
no heavy religious overtones. No kiddush/motzi, no sitting through a [...]36_3Nov200509:31:57ESTRENALEVIN@AOL.COM 7034 87 27_Disturbing news for parents0_21_YiddisheMameh@AOL.COM28_Thu, 3 Nov 2005 10:49:48 EST781_US-ASCII Another reason I'm glad I homeschool!

_http://www.gopusa.com/theloft/?p=112_ (http://www.gopusa.com/theloft/?p=112)

Chana

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
May 5766 see good things for us all. Indeed may Mashiach arise in the Galil!
(Zohar 1, 119a).
_http://www.gogumogog.com_ (http://www.gogumogog.com/)
_http://www.qeren.net_ (http://www.qeren.net/)
_http://www.koshertorah.com_ (http://www.koshertorah.com/)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by
Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org,
a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and
an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...]40_3Nov200510:49:48ESTYiddisheMameh@AOL.COM 7122 27 52_Re: large homeschooling families and lack of support14_Moriah Chesler17_merilyn@ABSOL.COM30_Thu, 3 Nov 2005 11:24:21 -0500328_- My dh and I too try to engage our children in chores and stuff - from
building the sukkah to laundry. This is part of growing up as a family
together and they have more opportunities to chime in because we're together
more than schoolers. We are in our 40's and have little energy to do
everything ourselves. [...]38_3Nov200511:24:21-0500merilyn@ABSOL.COM 7150 49 52_Re: large homeschooling families and lack of support19_malkiadler@juno.com19_malkiadler@JUNO.COM28_Thu, 3 Nov 2005 18:34:15 GMT407_- Susan, thank you for your wonderful post. As a mom of seven, I appreciate what you wrote and also find that when I am prepared, life is alot easier! I have sometimes questioned myself if it was "good" that my kids do so much around the house, but reading your comments have been reassuring! It will give them that much more the head start when it comes time for them to run their own homes.
Malki [...]38_3Nov200518:34:15GMTmalkiadler@JUNO.COM 7200 253 19_Re: : thanksgiving?8_S Sloman18_ssloman@NETLAB.COM30_Thu, 3 Nov 2005 16:14:37 -0500534_us-ascii I have to tell you that I know a woman who did the same thing (made the
big Thanksgiving-style meal for Shabbos), and only found out after her
children were grown that they were bothered that she didn't do it on the
day of Thanksgiving, itself!

-Shoshana

-----Original Message-----
From: Torah-Centered Homeschooling [mailto:TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG] On
Behalf Of RENALEVIN@AOL.COM
Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2005 9:32 AM
To: TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG
Subject: Re: [TORCH-D] : thanksgiving? [...]39_3Nov200516:14:37-0500ssloman@NETLAB.COM 7454 31 3_flu15_Michelle Miller25_michelletamar@HOTMAIL.COM30_Thu, 3 Nov 2005 15:04:42 -0700331_- Allison,

I hope you are all doing ok....been thinking of you.

At this point I'm thinking that the press is really hyping this like they
did with the isolated anthrax cases. I don't believe there has been a
single human case as of yet. I don't take the media (not the mainstream
anyway) too seriously. [...]46_3Nov200515:04:42-0700michelletamar@HOTMAIL.COM 7486 108 19_Re: : thanksgiving?0_21_YiddisheMameh@AOL.COM28_Thu, 3 Nov 2005 17:17:59 EST693_US-ASCII In a message dated 11/3/2005 2:33:55 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
RENALEVIN@AOL.COM writes:

apple cranberry kugel with pumpkin pie and pecan pie for dessert,

Ooh., ooh....um, can you get me the recipe for the apple cranberry kugel,
please? :)

I make a really good craberry walnut pie, but that kugel sounds great!!

Chana

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
May 5766 see good things for us all. Indeed may Mashiach arise in the Galil!
(Zohar 1, 119a).
_http://www.gogumogog.com_ (http://www.gogumogog.com/)
_http://www.qeren.net_ (http://www.qeren.net/)
_http://www.koshertorah.com_ (http://www.koshertorah.com/) [...]40_3Nov200517:17:59ESTYiddisheMameh@AOL.COM 7595 28 7_Re: flu8_S Sloman18_ssloman@NETLAB.COM30_Fri, 4 Nov 2005 05:59:49 -0500470_us-ascii > I don't believe there has been a single human case as of yet.

There have been something like 120 human cases and 62 deaths (though not
in this country). What there hasn't been yet is a mutation that allows
it to be spread from human to human (rather than from bird to human).
That is what they are planning for, because, obviously, the death rate
is very high and if it could be spread person-to-person it could infect
many people. [...]39_4Nov200505:59:49-0500ssloman@NETLAB.COM 7624 319 21_Shame, Fear and Guilt6_Zohari20_najova@EARTHLINK.NET30_Thu, 3 Nov 2005 18:13:04 -0700379_ISO-8859-1 This is an on-going program that I have recently signed-up for. This woman
is a good friend of one of my very closest friends. I found this message to
be particularly relevant in light of our discussion on "lack of support."
Hope you all enjoy it as much as I did.

Shoshana Z.
----------

Seven Kabbalah Secrets That Can Change Your Life [...]41_3Nov200518:13:04-0700najova@EARTHLINK.NET 7944 203 19_Re: : thanksgiving?10_Zara Haimo14_zara@HAIMO.NET30_Thu, 3 Nov 2005 18:29:14 -0800387_iso-8859-1 > We also celebrate Thanksgiving. We make a turkey, stuffing, sweet potatoes, green beans, apple cranberry kugel with pumpkin pie and pecan pie for dessert, but we do this with a twist. I prepare all this for the Friday night AFTER Thanksgiving. Heck, why cook massive menus two days in a row? And for me, it is not kavod-ik or respectful to serve leftovers for Shabbos. [...]35_3Nov200518:29:14-0800zara@HAIMO.NET 8148 182 13_Re: Avian Flu14_Evelyn Krieger18_ek2000@COMCAST.NET30_Thu, 3 Nov 2005 21:36:49 -0500335_iso-8859-1 We were actually thinking of buying medical masks and stocking up on
shelf-food and water in case, G-d forbid, there is an serious outbreak and
we need to quarantine for a while. Maybe this is a little paranoid, but my
mom always taught me, ABP, "always be prepared" so you can make good
choices.
Evelyn [...]39_3Nov200521:36:49-0500ek2000@COMCAST.NET 8331 27 21_Re: HSchooling 7 kids16_Russell J Hendel17_rjhendel@JUNO.COM30_Thu, 3 Nov 2005 21:52:26 -0500445_us-ascii An old math joke asks "If it takes 3 minutes to cook 1 soft boiled egg
how long will it take to cook 4 soft-boiled eggs." The correct answer is
3 minutes (not 12). The point here is to use more resources and take the
same time.

This applies to homeschooling. You hschool 7 kids the same way you soft
boil 4 eggs---you use multiple resources. Also asking kids to TEACH is
one of the best way for them to LEARN [...]38_3Nov200521:52:26-0500rjhendel@JUNO.COM 8359 378 52_Re: large homeschooling families and lack of support11_Susan Lapin20_suelap@EARTHLINK.NET30_Thu, 3 Nov 2005 20:29:13 -0800593_US-ASCII >>>But regarding how you managed everything, haven't you also used
live-in help, at least part of the time, to help with the various
responsibilities of taking care of a large family?

-Shoshi<<<

When we lived in Southern CA we did have live in help, which was
incredibly inexpensive there. But we started homeschooling everybody
after we moved up north, and other than a babysitter who helped us move
and stayed for a short while, we have been on our own. At various times
I did have a young girl come in for a few hours a week to either take
[...]41_3Nov200520:29:13-0800suelap@EARTHLINK.NET 8738 78 7_Re: flu12_Caryn Lipson24_caryn_lipson@HOTMAIL.COM30_Fri, 4 Nov 2005 06:59:13 -0500446_iso-8859-1 Here is the beginning of an article re bird flu. For the rest of it , click
onto the link at the end. Hope this helps.

Caryn
Sherri J. Tenpenny received her medical training at Kirksville College of
Osteopathic Medicine in Kirksville, Missouri. She is board certified in
emergency medicine and osteopathic manipulative medicine, and is a respected
expert in the area of integrative and alternative medicine. [...]45_4Nov200506:59:13-0500caryn_lipson@HOTMAIL.COM 8817 152 7_Re: flu14_Laya B Jackson17_tolife18@JUNO.COM30_Fri, 4 Nov 2005 14:51:10 +0200321_us-ascii Living in Asia, the continent where the deaths did occur (although B"H
not here!), we are keeping our eyes open. The last time something like
this traveled this planet, it was very serious and many, many millions of
people died. We were asked to report any dead or sick birds that we might
see. [...]38_4Nov200514:51:10+0200tolife18@JUNO.COM 8970 74 8_Re: flu?0_17_RENALEVIN@AOL.COM28_Fri, 4 Nov 2005 08:59:48 EST426_US-ASCII In a message dated 11/4/05 1:54:34 AM Eastern Standard Time,
LISTSERV@SHAMASH.ORG writes:

> Anyone else have thoughts on this one?
>

participated in an on-line chat at Motheringmagazine.com the other night with
Dr. Sherry Tenpenny. She is an integrative medicine doc and the chat was
about vaccinations, risks/benefits/alternatives to good health. She recommended a
web site called: [...]36_4Nov200508:59:48ESTRENALEVIN@AOL.COM 9045 64 11_Re: recipe?0_17_RENALEVIN@AOL.COM28_Fri, 4 Nov 2005 09:04:15 EST629_US-ASCII In a message dated 11/4/05 1:54:34 AM Eastern Standard Time,
LISTSERV@SHAMASH.ORG writes:

> Ooh., ooh....um, can you get me the recipe for the apple cranberry kugel,
> please? :)
>

next project, a TORCH-D cookbook?

will post bli neder I"H after shabbos, no time now!

Rena

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by
Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org,
a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and
an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...]36_4Nov200509:04:15ESTRENALEVIN@AOL.COM 9110 225 11_Re: recipe?8_S Sloman18_ssloman@NETLAB.COM30_Fri, 4 Nov 2005 09:43:39 -0500542_us-ascii > next project, a TORCH-D cookbook?

HAHA! So far we haven't even started projects 1 through 5. Lots of
great ideas, so little time!

-Shoshana

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by
Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org,
a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and
an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/

To unsubscribe email: TORCH-D-unsubscribe-request@SHAMASH.ORG39_4Nov200509:43:39-0500ssloman@NETLAB.COM 9336 32 3_flu15_Michelle Miller25_michelletamar@HOTMAIL.COM30_Fri, 4 Nov 2005 08:11:42 -0700423_- Several year ago Colorado was in a panic about West Nile Virus. People
died...people were crippled for life. The media was in a frenzy. I had my
kids wear insect repellent and long sleeves and pants for my son at dusk,
but I didn't try to keep them from being outside. I just am not going to
live like that (in fear). I'll take appropriate precautions, but after
that, it really is in Hashem's hands. [...]46_4Nov200508:11:42-0700michelletamar@HOTMAIL.COM 9369 26 3_flu15_Michelle Miller25_michelletamar@HOTMAIL.COM30_Fri, 4 Nov 2005 08:16:59 -0700519_- This reminds me of the Y2K hysteria. I have to admit, I bought extra food
and water....learned my lesson:) I believe we are probably in more danger
of a terrorist attack than a bird flu attack (in which case, the extra food
and water will be needed, chas v' shalom).

Michelle

_________________________________________________________________
Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee®
Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 [...]46_4Nov200508:16:59-0700michelletamar@HOTMAIL.COM 9396 45 7_Re: flu8_S Sloman18_ssloman@NETLAB.COM30_Fri, 4 Nov 2005 10:27:40 -0500396_us-ascii There's nothing wrong with stocking up on supplies to last at least a
few days, for whatever eventuality could possibly disrupt normal
services. Even a power outage can become a crisis if you aren't
prepared.

Unless you are significantly disrupting your life on a slim risk,
there's no reason to feel foolish or neglect to prepare for future
potential crises. [...]39_4Nov200510:27:40-0500ssloman@NETLAB.COM 9442 41 52_Re: large homeschooling families and lack of support14_Moriah Chesler17_merilyn@ABSOL.COM30_Fri, 4 Nov 2005 11:13:50 -0500555_- >By the way, we also do a full Thanksgiving dinner on Friday night, but I
>feel guilty about it not being on the correct night every year.
>Something to strive for.
>Susan
>

I wonder if the Thanksgiving holiday which has its roots in the JEwish
holiday of Sukkos(t), according to some Jewish sources, makes some Jews more
thankful to HaShem for their lot, since they make a more 'festive' meal for
Shabbos than any other regular Shabbos of the year, perhaps, the secular
Thanksgiving holiday has a "positive" effect. [...]38_4Nov200511:13:50-0500merilyn@ABSOL.COM 9484 45 46_Re: Moving to an observant Jewish neighborhood14_Bill Bernstein27_billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET30_Thu, 3 Nov 2005 08:56:51 -0600583_ISO-8859-1 No, R' Kaminetsky lives near the yeshiva, which is in Overbrook, or the
west part of the city.
I lived in Philly for 4 years (1988-1992) in the Overbrook Park/Ardmore
section. I can honestly say I was never so happy to leave anyplace in
my life. I would be happy to describe the moment we made our decision
to leave off-list to anyone interested. It wasnt pretty.
Philly used to have *a* Jewish neighborhood in West Philadelphia, and if
you drive through (with the windows up and doors locked) today you can
see all the old shuls, now used as [...]48_3Nov200508:56:51-0600billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET 9530 22 22_check out my last post6_Zohari20_najova@EARTHLINK.NET30_Fri, 4 Nov 2005 12:30:37 -0700561_US-ASCII I think I titled my last post poorly. The title is shame, fear and guilt.
Please read it as it is actually very inspirational. The words were from
the title of the article itself. Hope it hits home with some of you.

Shoshana Z.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by
Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org,
a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and
an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...]41_4Nov200512:30:37-0700najova@EARTHLINK.NET 9553 24 13_disaster prep6_Zohari20_najova@EARTHLINK.NET30_Fri, 4 Nov 2005 15:02:38 -0700578_US-ASCII For anyone who really wants to be prepared for any type of disaster or
extreme event, the Red Cross has a great page to go about this in an
orderly, common-sense matter.

www.redcross.org/services/prepare/0,1082,0_239_,00.html

Shoshana Z.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by
Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org,
a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and
an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...]41_4Nov200515:02:38-0700najova@EARTHLINK.NET 9578 57 21_Re: HSchooling 7 kids14_Laya B Jackson17_tolife18@JUNO.COM30_Sat, 5 Nov 2005 21:31:31 +0200416_us-ascii This is a nice idea, but what if each kid needs to "cook" at a different
temperature? Or maybe one kid "cooks" better by boiling, and the other
really needs the contact of scrambling?

Which reminds me of something else. (we tell this every year at Pesach
when we eat the eggs) How are the Jews like hard boiled eggs? The
longer you keep them on the fire, the harder they get!
:-) [...]38_5Nov200521:31:31+0200tolife18@JUNO.COM 9636 31 21_Re: HSchooling 7 kids8_S Sloman18_ssloman@NETLAB.COM30_Sun, 6 Nov 2005 07:17:07 -0500442_us-ascii Laya wrote:

>This is a nice idea, but what if each kid needs to "cook" at a
different
>temperature? Or maybe one kid "cooks" better by boiling, and the other
>really needs the contact of scrambling?

Nice analogy, Laya. A reminder of why many of us think institutional
school's one-size-fits-all approach is inferior to homeschooling.

It IS more challenging when we strive for individualization. [...]39_6Nov200507:17:07-0500ssloman@NETLAB.COM 9668 77 29_Re: was flu, now preparedness14_Laya B Jackson17_tolife18@JUNO.COM30_Sun, 6 Nov 2005 05:47:10 +0200529_us-ascii I remember the Y2K thing... I did a bit of research on the internet and
found the red cross recommended--for ALL the time-- that each home have
three days of water on hand PER PERSON. I still believe it's a good
thing to be prepared with a stocked pantry of non perishables and other
supplies. Flashlights, batteries, candles, extra blankets are all a part
of my supply list and they are all things that are used and rotated as
well. There could be host of reasons why these things could be used. [...]38_6Nov200505:47:10+0200tolife18@JUNO.COM 9746 54 21_Re: HSchooling 7 kids14_Malkie Swidler24_swidler@NETVISION.NET.IL30_Sun, 6 Nov 2005 09:41:44 +0200408_ISO-8859-1 This would be true if children were eggs.
And we wanted to boil them.

Alas, children are people, and we want them achieve self-actualization.
And as each child is unique with unique interests and pathways, raising
children is more like juggling eggs than boiling them. The big question
isn't about methodology, it's about maintaining integrity in a complex
environment. [...]45_6Nov200509:41:44+0200swidler@NETVISION.NET.IL 9801 150 46_Re: Moving to an observant Jewish neighborhood0_21_YiddisheMameh@AOL.COM28_Sun, 6 Nov 2005 06:35:58 EST632_US-ASCII In a message dated 11/5/2005 7:11:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET writes:

No, R' Kaminetsky lives near the yeshiva, which is in Overbrook, or the
west part of the city.
I lived in Philly for 4 years (1988-1992) in the Overbrook Park/Ardmore
section. I can honestly say I was never so happy to leave anyplace in
my life. I would be happy to describe the moment we made our decision
to leave off-list to anyone interested. It wasnt pretty.
Philly used to have *a* Jewish neighborhood in West Philadelphia, and if
you drive through (with the windows up and doors [...]40_6Nov200506:35:58ESTYiddisheMameh@AOL.COM 9952 85 21_Re: HSchooling 7 kids17_Chana Silberstein16_cs32@CORNELL.EDU30_Sun, 6 Nov 2005 08:40:19 -0500544_us-ascii When my third child was born, my aunt ( mother of 11) told me that
was the big transition in parenting. When you have one child, you
start off thinking you can do it perfectly meeting all needs. With
two children, you start to feel frazzled at times.. but at least
there are two parents ( or when you are home alone, two hands). Then
you have three, and even if you multitask, you cannot meet the needs
of everyone at once. From that point on, she said, if you accepted
that reality, things would get easier. [...]37_6Nov200508:40:19-0500cs32@CORNELL.EDU 10038 146 69_Re: was: large homeschooling families, now lack of homemaking support12_ruthie thurm21_ruthiethurm@YAHOO.COM30_Sun, 6 Nov 2005 20:04:46 -0800236_iso-8859-1 avivah... my eldest is 9 and he is in 4th grade, then my 7 year old and she is in 2nd grade, then my 5 year old and she is in pre-1a and then my 3 year old and he is in nursery, and then my 2 year old and 7 month old... [...]42_6Nov200520:04:46-0800ruthiethurm@YAHOO.COM 10185 55 34_Re: was lack of homemaking support13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM30_Mon, 7 Nov 2005 03:52:44 -0800599_iso-8859-1 Thanks for your detailed response, Ruthie! It is so interesting for me to see how different families structure their days, and to note the differences between the various families, each reflecting our priorities, strengths, and interests as parents. For example, for us, a day without me reading quality literature out loud to my kids would be a day that was totally out of sync with my goals. Our 'book work' schedule is also very different (we have three hours carved out of the morning in which to cover everything, with each child usually finishing all of his/her work within 90 [...]43_7Nov200503:52:44-0800avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 10241 424 34_Re: was lack of homemaking support8_S Sloman18_ssloman@NETLAB.COM30_Mon, 7 Nov 2005 06:59:01 -0500358_us-ascii My understanding was that Ruthie was saying that complaining about the
kolel system (and the inability to produce enough money if someone
learns full-time) is really a way to justify the materialism, etc.

I also found Ruthie's post, about how she lives out the values she wants
to pass on to her children, to be very inspiring. [...]39_7Nov200506:59:01-0500ssloman@NETLAB.COM 10666 475 69_Re: was: large homeschooling families, now lack of homemaking support14_Evelyn Krieger18_ek2000@COMCAST.NET30_Mon, 7 Nov 2005 07:56:27 -0500629_iso-8859-1 Dear Ruthie,
Your post was very inspiring. I really like the focus on chesed, and yes, it is something we really have to model and teach every day. Your schedule has a lot of structure and covers quite a bit of solid learning. Do your kids have trouble sitting through these time slots? How much direct teaching do you do with them. Do you disrupt the schedule for errands and field trips?
Curious,
Evelyn
----- Original Message -----
From: ruthie thurm
To: TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG
Sent: Sunday, November 06, 2005 11:04 PM
Subject: Re: [TORCH-D] was: large homeschooling families, now lack of [...]39_7Nov200507:56:27-0500ek2000@COMCAST.NET 11142 39 28_Re: moving to observant hood12_Caryn Lipson24_caryn_lipson@HOTMAIL.COM30_Mon, 7 Nov 2005 18:32:36 -0500632_iso-8859-1 Hi,

I found this on 613.org's website where they have tons of downloadable
shiurim to listen to. I was listening to Akiva Tatz and noticed that the has
one on being newly observant. I haven't heard it but for anyone who's
interested the links are here:

http://www.613.org/tatz/tz.html

TZ 26 Newly Observant: Social Integration

I was listening to his tape Defining One's Role in Life and he has a part
there about how education today is against halacha - as in school children
are measured against what the next one did but each child has different
abilities ... ( TZ 10 [...]45_7Nov200518:32:36-0500caryn_lipson@HOTMAIL.COM 11182 53 34_Re: was lack of homemaking support12_ruthie thurm21_ruthiethurm@YAHOO.COM30_Mon, 7 Nov 2005 21:04:03 -0800590_iso-8859-1 avivah... i thank you for your kind words... basically my summary of the idea of the husband learning in kollel while the wife goes to work and hires, and or relies on family members, to care for the children is not ke'derech our famous tzaddekes rochel in regards to her sacrifices for rabbi akiva... she was disowned by kalba sabua (who probably epitomized materialism at its worse, at the time) and worked to keep her family alive (as opposed to today's struggle to have the same overly expensive apparel, furnishings, food etc. as the jonestien's) in order to raise her [...]42_7Nov200521:04:03-0800ruthiethurm@YAHOO.COM 11236 47 34_Re: was lack of homemaking support12_ruthie thurm21_ruthiethurm@YAHOO.COM30_Mon, 7 Nov 2005 21:06:28 -0800490_iso-8859-1 shoshana... i thank you too for your kind words...

ruthie...

---------------------------------
Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by
Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org,
a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and
an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/42_7Nov200521:06:28-0800ruthiethurm@YAHOO.COM 11284 55 69_Re: was: large homeschooling families, now lack of homemaking support12_ruthie thurm21_ruthiethurm@YAHOO.COM30_Mon, 7 Nov 2005 22:11:29 -0800610_iso-8859-1 evelyn... the kids do not have trouble sitting through the time slots because the method of teaching the various subjects pretty much moves them quickly through the next smoothly (special mention to my yeshivah of brooklyn morahs from my earlier lifetime- any one else remember be-rei-shis, in-unn-fang, bo-rah- e-lo-kim, un- ha-shem hut ba-sha-fen... too bad i haven't spoken fluent yiddish since the fifth grade... gam zu) and before we know it we break for an hour which they love... after 3:30 they learned hard so now they play hard... i work directly with the 9 and 7 for chumash, rashi, [...]42_7Nov200522:11:29-0800ruthiethurm@YAHOO.COM 11340 30 21_Re: HSchooling 7 kids16_Russell J Hendel17_rjhendel@JUNO.COM30_Tue, 8 Nov 2005 22:56:02 -0500532_us-ascii Malkie
But boiling eggs does have individuality. Some are soft-boiled, some are
hard boiled. You could even have an omlet. My point was that you can
maintain the individuality of cooked eggs by using multiple resources.

In a house with 7 kids I recommended using older children to help teach
younger children The "train the trainer" is a well established idea. As
the children grow up some of them develop their individuality on the side
of teachers/leaders while others develop as followers. [...]38_8Nov200522:56:02-0500rjhendel@JUNO.COM 11371 26 26_lack of hschooling support15_Michelle Miller25_michelletamar@HOTMAIL.COM30_Tue, 8 Nov 2005 21:30:49 -0700700_- Ruthie,

Gosh, if you posted more often I would have no need to read any Xtian stuff
for inspiration:) Thank you for your very inspiring words.

Michelle

_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE!
http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by
Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org,
a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and
an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...]46_8Nov200521:30:49-0700michelletamar@HOTMAIL.COM 11398 194 11_Re: kollel?0_17_RENALEVIN@AOL.COM28_Wed, 9 Nov 2005 09:02:41 EST579_US-ASCII Ruthie: I liked your analysis. I have a different spin, however.

We B"H live very structured lives. Torah living requires structure and
discipline, applying itself to absolutely every aspect of our lives. Add to that
the fact that children are taken out of the family home, placed in hothouse
incubators called "school". Kids do a double curriculum, very intense academics
(how many jewish jokes are there about my son the plumber? not something jewish
moms have aspired to....though they make more than lawyers and doctors in
some areas!) [...]36_9Nov200509:02:41ESTRENALEVIN@AOL.COM 11593 196 69_Re: was: large homeschooling families, now lack of homemaking support14_Evelyn Krieger18_ek2000@COMCAST.NET30_Wed, 9 Nov 2005 11:01:14 -0500716_iso-8859-1 Thanks, Ruthie. I admire your structure and organization.
Evelyn
----- Original Message -----
From: ruthie thurm
To: TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG
Sent: Tuesday, November 08, 2005 1:11 AM
Subject: Re: [TORCH-D] was: large homeschooling families, now lack of homemaking support

evelyn... the kids do not have trouble sitting through the time slots because the method of teaching the various subjects pretty much moves them quickly through the next smoothly (special mention to my yeshivah of brooklyn morahs from my earlier lifetime- any one else remember be-rei-shis, in-unn-fang, bo-rah- e-lo-kim, un- ha-shem hut ba-sha-fen... too bad i haven't spoken fluent yiddish since the fifth [...]39_9Nov200511:01:14-0500ek2000@COMCAST.NET 11790 27 69_Re: was: large homeschooling families, now lack of homemaking support14_Moriah Chesler17_merilyn@ABSOL.COM30_Wed, 9 Nov 2005 11:23:54 -0500576_- BS"D

I **** love ***** this!!

Thanks for sharing your well-oiled functioning efficient home school.
What an inspiration.

Fortunate are your banim u'banos who get to learn with you everyday.

Looking to learn more from you.

MC

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by
Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org,
a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and
an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...]38_9Nov200511:23:54-0500merilyn@ABSOL.COM 11818 31 34_Re: was lack of homemaking support15_Merilyn Chesler17_merilyn@ABSOL.COM30_Wed, 9 Nov 2005 11:29:43 -0500548_- On Mon, 7 Nov 2005 21:04:03 -0800, ruthie thurm wrote:

>avivah... i thank you for your kind words... basically my summary of the
idea >of the husband learning in kollel while the wife goes to work and
hires, and >or relies on family members, to care for the children is not
ke'derech our >famous tzaddekes rochel in regards to her sacrifices for
rabbi akiva... she >was disowned by kalba sabua (who probably epitomized
materialism at its >worse, at the time) and worked to keep her family alive [...]38_9Nov200511:29:43-0500merilyn@ABSOL.COM 11850 77 21_Re: HSchooling 7 kids13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM30_Wed, 9 Nov 2005 10:29:47 -0800565_iso-8859-1 I think that the point being made was that once you are boiling eggs, you are using one approach for them all. You can't 'make an omelet' in the same pot at the same time.

Your point about using multiple resources is well taken - but it is a separate point from the egg boiling example, which seemed to be saying that by doing the same thing at the same time for everyone, time can be saved. I think if you clarified what you meant practically speaking by using multiple resources, your statement would be better understood and more helpful. [...]43_9Nov200510:29:47-0800avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 11928 121 11_Re: kollel?13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM30_Wed, 9 Nov 2005 11:38:39 -0800557_iso-8859-1 Great post, Rena. Good points all around.

I understand your ambivalence. I find that the older my kids get, the more ambivalent I feel about the grown up world they will live in. When they are young enough for the future to be distant enough that you can think they will live in totally different times, it's easy to be very one sided in one's position (ie, oppositional). But when you realize this is the reality your kids will confront, and you have to work out how to help them best deal with it, it gets challenging. I have spent [...]43_9Nov200511:38:39-0800avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 12050 66 21_Re: HSchooling 7 kids14_Malkie Swidler24_swidler@NETVISION.NET.IL31_Thu, 10 Nov 2005 00:32:12 +0200468_ISO-8859-1 I'd love to see your recipe for making an omelet out of a boiled egg.

Tell me again about your practical approach... ;-)

Russell-- your Rashiyomi site is an excellent resource, and you make an
valuable contribution to the list. You appreciate our struggles having
tutored homeschooling children yourself, and you have a broad chinuch
background. I really appreciate your concerning yourself with Torah
oriented homeschooling. [...]46_10Nov200500:32:12+0200swidler@NETVISION.NET.IL 12117 145 21_Homeschooling Support9_beth mali18_malikids@GMAIL.COM31_Thu, 10 Nov 2005 01:05:16 -0800528_ISO-8859-1 My kids were reading over my shoulder the e-mail from Ruthie and they think
she is the coolest mom (go Ruthie). They think it would be just divine if I
were to run my home like that (I actually like the groceries delivered part
myself). The reality is that I don't do it that way. I have done unschooling
for more than 20 years. My kids are ages 25, 22, 17, 15, 11, and 8. I always
used to say If I wanted my kids schooled, I could send them to where other
people specialize in it. Most of you [...]40_10Nov200501:05:16-0800malikids@GMAIL.COM 12263 88 21_Homeschooling Support13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Thu, 10 Nov 2005 10:29:02 -0800564_iso-8859-1 I am so delighted that you are sharing some of your experience with us, Beth! You are right, many on this list have young families, and it is great to hear from those of you who have raised your kids to young adulthood.

I agree that it's important for families to realize there are many models of homeschooling, as many models as there are families! The reality is that no matter how good something looks on paper or works for someone else, the likelihood that the same thing will work equally well for someone else is slim. Every parent is [...]44_10Nov200510:29:02-0800avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 12352 36 17_Boiled Egg Omelet11_Rick Dinitz16_dinitz@TIBCO.COM31_Thu, 10 Nov 2005 10:13:18 -0800437_ISO-8859-1 Malkie Swidler wrote:

> I'd love to see your recipe for making an omelet out of a boiled egg.

Boiled Egg Omelet

Beat two eggs with milk, salt & pepper.
Fry the beaten eggs into a flat crepe.
Chop coarsely 2 hard boiled eggs; mix with chopped parsley or celery.
Spoon the mixture into a line across the diameter of the crepe.
Fold the two sides of the crepe over the mixture.
Serve. ;) [...]38_10Nov200510:13:18-0800dinitz@TIBCO.COM 12389 55 21_Re: Boiled Egg Omelet14_Malkie Swidler24_swidler@NETVISION.NET.IL31_Fri, 11 Nov 2005 00:07:56 +0200561_ISO-8859-1 Hey, I can coat a hard-boiled egg with ganache, stick a candle in it,
and serve it to my son as his birthday cake!

Who was it who just suggested the new Torch-d cookbook? Rick and I have
submissions!

Malkie
Still sunny side up and now ROTFL, to boot!

Rick Dinitz wrote:
> Malkie Swidler wrote:
>
>> I'd love to see your recipe for making an omelet out of a boiled egg.
>
>
> Boiled Egg Omelet
>
> Beat two eggs with milk, salt & pepper.
> Fry the beaten eggs into a flat crepe.
> Chop [...]46_11Nov200500:07:56+0200swidler@NETVISION.NET.IL 12445 98 25_Re: Homeschooling Support14_Malkie Swidler24_swidler@NETVISION.NET.IL31_Fri, 11 Nov 2005 00:36:28 +0200429_ISO-8859-1 Dear Beth--

We are also relaxed homeschoolers. My kids are young (8, 2.5, and 9
months) and while I commend Ruthie for having found the right balance
for her home, school-at-home is not something I aspire to. My kohot--
powers-- function best in a free-flowing, lightly structured
environment. I don't see homeschooling as a form of education at all
related to school, but as a way of life. [...]46_11Nov200500:36:28+0200swidler@NETVISION.NET.IL 12544 31 20_scholastic book sale14_Laya B Jackson17_tolife18@JUNO.COM31_Fri, 11 Nov 2005 00:51:55 +0200624_us-ascii http://teacher.scholastic.com/fairs/warehouse/

Scholastic books has a twice yearly book sale for teachers where their
books are 50% off their already good prices. In Denver at least, they
also have huge cartons of "buck a book" deals where you can dig for some
good treasures. I've also used that time to stock up on gifts that can
be used for birthday or chanuka gifts. So, it's that time of year again.
Home schoolers count as teachers, so if you're interested, here's the
link for locations and dates. Note that some of the sales are real
warehouse sales, and some of more "book [...]39_11Nov200500:51:55+0200tolife18@JUNO.COM 12576 54 25_Re: Homeschooling Support12_ruthie thurm21_ruthiethurm@YAHOO.COM31_Thu, 10 Nov 2005 21:15:01 -0800337_iso-8859-1 beth... shalom aleichem! i thank you for your kind words... i was greatly impressed to hear about your journey on the path of observance while hsing... it takes a great woman to voluntarily adhere and enjoy the nachas of your children coming into their own in an isolated area. may we learn much from your experiences... [...]43_10Nov200521:15:01-0800ruthiethurm@YAHOO.COM 12631 53 14_chemistry labs16_Brenda Goldstein21_lioness31@COMCAST.NET31_Thu, 10 Nov 2005 22:09:34 -0800576_ISO-8859-1 Someone recently said to me that he didn't think hsing was good for the
older (high school) years, because you can't have a science lab at home.
What does one say to that?
Thanks and Good Shabbos,
Brenda

Rick Dinitz wrote:

> Malkie Swidler wrote:
>
>> I'd love to see your recipe for making an omelet out of a boiled egg.
>
>
> Boiled Egg Omelet
>
> Beat two eggs with milk, salt & pepper.
> Fry the beaten eggs into a flat crepe.
> Chop coarsely 2 hard boiled eggs; mix with chopped parsley or celery.
[...]43_10Nov200522:09:34-0800lioness31@COMCAST.NET 12685 85 19_Re: future concerns12_ruthie thurm21_ruthiethurm@YAHOO.COM31_Thu, 10 Nov 2005 21:29:19 -0800564_iso-8859-1 rena and aviva... if we take a look at next week's parsha vayikra and focus for a moment on the story of avraham sending hagar and yishmael away, the wording of the torah in passuk yud zayin is "va'yishmah elokim et kol ha'na'ar..." and similarly when the malach speaks to hagar, "sha'mah elokim et kol ha'na'ar..." let us imagine as mothers the power of tefillah mi kol halev. here is yishmael, a rasha to the core, yet still a child in so many ways who grew up in a household of perfect kedusha (the presence of angels was common-day experience) [...]43_10Nov200521:29:19-0800ruthiethurm@YAHOO.COM 12771 80 19_Re: future concerns13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Thu, 10 Nov 2005 23:04:33 -0800560_iso-8859-1 Now is not the time to be obsessive and worry mindlessly about things we can't control, but as it says in Pirkei Avos: 'Aizehu chacham, haro'eh es hanolad - who is the wise man? He who anticipates that which is yet to occur'. It is unquestionably true that a person should enjoy and appreciate their children throughout their years raising them, yet to give no thought as to how to guide them in the future (which comes very quickly) is irresponsible. I can't wait until my kids are grown to suddenly begin to think about how what I could have [...]44_10Nov200523:04:33-0800avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 12852 80 19_Re: future concerns14_Evelyn Krieger18_ek2000@COMCAST.NET31_Fri, 11 Nov 2005 07:43:38 -0500375_iso-8859-1 I think what Ruthie was trying to say to Aviva is that we need to balance between "being in the here and now" with our children and our lives, and planning for their future. Mothers, especially homeschooling moms, give a lot of thought to their children's development and sometimes this could border on excessive worry and interfere with our present day job. [...]40_11Nov200507:43:38-0500ek2000@COMCAST.NET 12933 76 18_Re: chemistry labs14_Evelyn Krieger18_ek2000@COMCAST.NET31_Fri, 11 Nov 2005 07:47:57 -0500702_iso-8859-1 First, there is so much more to schooling and education that a science lab.
There are so many benefits that a young person doesn't get in school.
Still, one can be creative. There are options available which are discussed
in books on homeschooling for high school. Some options include: taking an
outside class; taking an on-line course; creating a simple lab at home (many
good products available to order on-line/catalogues), and many science
experiments in physics, botany, and biology can be done at home.
EVELYN
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brenda Goldstein"
To:
Sent: Friday, November 11, 2005 [...]40_11Nov200507:47:57-0500ek2000@COMCAST.NET 13010 71 13_davening idea13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Fri, 11 Nov 2005 08:10:45 -0800541_iso-8859-1 I have been thinking about sharing the following idea for a while, but it wasn't relevant to any threads. But now davening has come up, so I thought someone might find this a useful idea for them.

I have never enjoyed davening with my kids all at once. Some are older and want to go faster, some complain it's too fast, others say my tune is different than Daddy's, etc. I also didn't enjoy trying to combine my personal davening with the kids, and so much time and energy in the morning was being spent in this area. [...]44_11Nov200508:10:45-0800avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 13082 219 18_Re: chemistry labs14_Amber Vilensky25_brilliant.adiya@GMAIL.COM31_Fri, 11 Nov 2005 10:53:56 -0500621_WINDOWS-1252 SAID WHO?! Science lab at home is totally doable! There are several options available to home schoolers, and a practical guarantee that YOU can have a more in-depth, interesting, and valuable learning experience than any school can offer. High school science generally covers only basic concepts giving you a familiarity with the subject areas and laying a foundation for college work. Lab work done in high school is not generally of the particle accelerator kind (though I'm sure we could arrange a field trip for that…). When I was being home schooled we did several things: *Field trips! Science in [...]47_11Nov200510:53:56-0500brilliant.adiya@GMAIL.COM 13302 32 18_Re: chemistry labs16_Russell J Hendel17_rjhendel@JUNO.COM31_Sat, 12 Nov 2005 22:47:22 -0500528_us-ascii Brenda
I think HSCHOOLING is best for science and labs.
Labs are SUPPOSE to introduce the student to
CURISOSITY, EXPLORATION, and DISCOVERY
You can't do that in a class of 20-30. Each person
has his/her own ideas so the instructor is forced
to say---ok let us review what the masters (=others)
have done. I think it therefore best to buy some
crude equipment (or get permission from a local
high school / university) or use home experiments
and let your child explore on his/her own. [...]39_12Nov200522:47:22-0500rjhendel@JUNO.COM 13335 50 34_Natural Jewish Parenting re-launch12_Yael Resnick22_njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM31_Sun, 13 Nov 2005 21:42:52 -0500562_us-ascii Hi all,

I hope it's OK to post this here. I think it's relevant to members of
this list since NJP has run articles (even a whole special section)
about Jewish homeschooling -- including articles by people on this
list.

I am happy to announce that Natural Jewish Parenting magazine is back
in publication! A brand-new issue is on its way to Jewish bookstores
and is available directly by mail to subscribers. The issue includes
an article by my husband, Rabbi Yosef Resnick, entitled, "Is
Homeschooling 'Kosher'?" [...]44_13Nov200521:42:52-0500njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM 13386 66 22_Better late than early19_malkiadler@juno.com19_malkiadler@JUNO.COM29_Mon, 14 Nov 2005 04:16:58 GMT553_- I was having a conversation this evening at the local school dinner with my seatmate. I was extolling the virtues of waiting until a child is older before starting formal academics and she threw me for a loop by saying that in China and Japan the children are way ahead of American kids and they start schooling young. This was proof to her that it is good to start young and even in formal settings(preschool, nursery) it can work and even be beneficial to the kids.O.K., so what should I have answered her? I don't know much about education in [...]39_14Nov200504:16:58GMTmalkiadler@JUNO.COM 13453 45 18_Re: chemistry labs19_malkiadler@juno.com19_malkiadler@JUNO.COM29_Mon, 14 Nov 2005 04:23:52 GMT557_- Your enthusiasm is contagious! Do you have any good ideas for the younger set (middle school years?) Did you really do those field trips in Brooklyn?? I never knew much existed besides the Liberty Science Center!! ( I am from Monsey!)
Malki

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by
Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org,
a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and
an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...]39_14Nov200504:23:52GMTmalkiadler@JUNO.COM 13499 49 18_Re: chemistry labs16_Brenda Goldstein21_lioness31@COMCAST.NET31_Sun, 13 Nov 2005 22:21:24 -0800661_us-ascii Thanks for replying!
Brenda

Russell J Hendel wrote:

>Brenda
>I think HSCHOOLING is best for science and labs.
>Labs are SUPPOSE to introduce the student to
>CURISOSITY, EXPLORATION, and DISCOVERY
>You can't do that in a class of 20-30. Each person
>has his/her own ideas so the instructor is forced
>to say---ok let us review what the masters (=others)
>have done. I think it therefore best to buy some
>crude equipment (or get permission from a local
>high school / university) or use home experiments
>and let your child explore on his/her own.
>
>One provisio....safety is usually better at [...]43_13Nov200522:21:24-0800lioness31@COMCAST.NET 13549 204 26_Re: Better late than early14_Laya B Jackson17_tolife18@JUNO.COM31_Mon, 14 Nov 2005 20:57:12 +0200592_us-ascii I'm pretty simple about this stuff. I'm not looking to race anyone about
who is getting where faster. What's important to me is that my kids love
G-d and Torah, that they are mitzvah observant, and that they know that
G-D LOVES THEM!. I want them to read and write in two languages, have
math skills, and to discover who they are and what their gifts and
talents are so they can be contributing, responsible members of family
and society. Along the way, they are learning about different cultures
(even in tiny little Tzfat!), they are exposed to a variety [...]39_14Nov200520:57:12+0200tolife18@JUNO.COM 13754 54 18_Re: chemistry labs14_Malkie Swidler24_swidler@NETVISION.NET.IL31_Mon, 14 Nov 2005 23:22:36 +0200461_ISO-8859-1 Brenda,

"Homeschooling isn't a good idea because you can't do X at home" is one
of the oldest anti-homeschooling arguments there is. It's also absolute
nonsense.

This argument advances a logical fallacy:

"X is not possible therefore Y is not possible" may be true, but only if
all cases of X are considered. If you ignore ways the ways in which X
can happen, you have a classic case of the Fallacy of Exclusion. [...]46_14Nov200523:22:36+0200swidler@NETVISION.NET.IL 13809 70 26_Re: Better late than early14_Malkie Swidler24_swidler@NETVISION.NET.IL31_Tue, 15 Nov 2005 00:14:30 +0200563_ISO-8859-1 She's just wrong. Feel better? ;)

http://www2.unesco.org/wef/countryreports/china/rapport_2_3.html states:

"According to the provisions of the Compulsory Education Law of the
People's Republic of China, the school entrance age in China is set at 6
(fully six years old), and in less favorable areas the entrance age may
be postponed to 7."

http://countrystudies.us/japan/78.htm states:

"All children enter first grade at age six, and starting school is
considered a very important event in a child's life." [...]46_15Nov200500:14:30+0200swidler@NETVISION.NET.IL 13880 51 26_Re: Better late than early19_malkiadler@juno.com19_malkiadler@JUNO.COM29_Tue, 15 Nov 2005 00:30:15 GMT390_- Thanks, Laya!
After digesting what you wrote, I came up with a super simple reply "because it works for us". Then, if they want to get details, I will suggest they read up on it and then we can discuss it. I am sure that no one will take me up on my offer, so we can then hopefully move on to other conversation.
Malki, who is missing Eretz Yisroel, after leaving 6 years ago. [...]39_15Nov200500:30:15GMTmalkiadler@JUNO.COM 13932 142 26_Re: Better late than early16_Russell J Hendel17_rjhendel@JUNO.COM31_Mon, 14 Nov 2005 22:44:52 -0500391_us-ascii Malkie
There were some studies on Japan vs US. I will have to find them(Maybe
someone on the list saw them). But they something like: thru High School
Japan has edge; In College Americans do or something like that.

Conceptually---people are not computers...they need to develop
holistically....even in Jewish learning we encourage going lightly at
first. [...]39_14Nov200522:44:52-0500rjhendel@JUNO.COM 14075 51 26_Re: Better late than early10_Zara Haimo14_zara@HAIMO.NET31_Mon, 14 Nov 2005 21:32:14 -0800538_iso-8859-1 Different languages have different issues and take different lengths of time
even for native speakers to learn the written language.

Chinese and Japanese both require rote memorization of thousands of
characters for full literacy, both reading and writing. I don't know what
the Chinese requirements for graduation are, but Japanese schools require
that students learn to read and write about 1850 characters to graduate and
expect that it will take students through high school to master that many. [...]36_14Nov200521:32:14-0800zara@HAIMO.NET 14127 406 38_Re: chemistry lab / science homeschool14_Laya B Jackson17_tolife18@JUNO.COM31_Tue, 15 Nov 2005 06:02:53 +0200465_iso-8859-1 when we were in Denver this summer, my kids went to "camp" at the science
museum. In a short week they dissected a heart, brain, lung, eye and a
frog. (What I'm most proud of is that I didn't give over that I thought
the whole thing was gross.)

They got their interest in exploring that way though a web site we did
together at home called www.frogguts.com I went to check it out and it's
bigger and better and no longer free. [...]39_15Nov200506:02:53+0200tolife18@JUNO.COM 14534 71 18_Re: chemistry labs16_Brenda Goldstein21_lioness31@COMCAST.NET31_Mon, 14 Nov 2005 22:24:08 -0800593_us-ascii Thanks, Malkie. You're right, that a lot of people just don't really
know what they're saying!
Brenda

Malkie Swidler wrote:

> Brenda,
>
> "Homeschooling isn't a good idea because you can't do X at home" is
> one of the oldest anti-homeschooling arguments there is. It's also
> absolute nonsense.
>
> This argument advances a logical fallacy:
>
> "X is not possible therefore Y is not possible" may be true, but only
> if all cases of X are considered. If you ignore ways the ways in which
> X can happen, you have a classic case [...]43_14Nov200522:24:08-0800lioness31@COMCAST.NET 14606 90 27_Re: homeschooling/early ed?0_17_RENALEVIN@AOL.COM29_Tue, 15 Nov 2005 11:24:35 EST599_US-ASCII In a message dated 11/15/05 1:53:27 AM Eastern Standard Time,
LISTSERV@SHAMASH.ORG writes:

> because it works for us".

because it works for us? and you expect THAT type of argument to withstand
the onslaught of criticism/nosy busybody-ness?

By what right do you have to decide what works for you? by what about
objective "standards" do you know that it "works". Define "works". And since when is
it ok that "we" should decide for "us". Don't you have an obligation to raise
a child that will fit into the world at large, and its social conventions? [...]37_15Nov200511:24:35ESTRENALEVIN@AOL.COM 14697 60 27_Re: homeschooling/early ed?19_malkiadler@juno.com19_malkiadler@JUNO.COM29_Tue, 15 Nov 2005 20:19:34 GMT514_- Ok,Ok, I was just looking for a way to end a conversation that was going where I did not want to go! Usually, I get the question "what made you decide to homeschool" and I answer " a variety of reasons" I am beginning to tire of explaining myself to people so do I really need to satisfy everyone's curiousity? I do think that a short response is helpful to most people,and when said with a smile and then a quick change of topic, MOST people get the message that I do not want to talk about it. Of course, [...]39_15Nov200520:19:34GMTmalkiadler@JUNO.COM 14758 49 25_ot: organic beef response13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Tue, 15 Nov 2005 15:44:13 -0800618_iso-8859-1 A couple of weeks ago, someone asked in one of the nutrition digests about organic kosher beef. I may not be remembering the query accurately, so I hope the following info is helpful. The following release was dated May 15, 2005:

Wise Kosher Introduces Organic Beef
Kosher certified organic beef is now available through Wise Kosher Natural Poultry, Inc. All cattle are raised in the U.S.A and are grass fed and finished on organic grains in their own lots. The beef is hormone and antibiotic free and certified organic by FVO (Farm Verified Organic). The organic beef is currently available [...]44_15Nov200515:44:13-0800avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 14808 51 23_ot: school bus purchase13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Tue, 15 Nov 2005 15:51:02 -0800538_iso-8859-1 This is off topic, but since I got the info that led me to make the purchase/decision from this list, I thought I would share with you all.

We recently purchased a mini school bus for our family use, with the intent to convert it to run on waste vegetable oil. Moriah shared a link about a similar vehicle that was making educational 'stops' throughout the country, and I did a bunch of research following that original post, wondering if it was possible for the average family to convert a vehicle in that manner. [...]44_15Nov200515:51:02-0800avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 14860 366 27_Re: ot: school bus purchase8_S Sloman18_ssloman@NETLAB.COM31_Tue, 15 Nov 2005 18:57:50 -0500689_us-ascii Awesome, Avivah!

-----Original Message-----
From: Torah-Centered Homeschooling [mailto:TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG] On
Behalf Of Avivah Werner
Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2005 6:51 PM
To: TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG
Subject: [TORCH-D] ot: school bus purchase

This is off topic, but since I got the info that led me to make the
purchase/decision from this list, I thought I would share with you all.

We recently purchased a mini school bus for our family use, with the
intent to convert it to run on waste vegetable oil. Moriah shared a
link about a similar vehicle that was making educational 'stops'
throughout the country, and I did a bunch [...]40_15Nov200518:57:50-0500ssloman@NETLAB.COM 15227 32 27_Re: ot: school bus purchase12_Yael Resnick22_njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM31_Tue, 15 Nov 2005 19:23:49 -0500150_us-ascii Avivah,

I would LOVE it if you would write an article about your veggie bus
for Natural Jewish Parenting! How about it?

Yael44_15Nov200519:23:49-0500njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM 15260 143 27_Re: ot: school bus purchase14_Laya B Jackson17_tolife18@JUNO.COM31_Wed, 16 Nov 2005 02:32:03 +0200438_us-ascii THAT is incredible. Thanks for sharing. I'd love to know more about how
it's running and what the costs and sources of your are. Who did the
conversion for you?

KT,
Laya

On Tue, 15 Nov 2005 15:51:02 -0800 Avivah Werner
writes:
This is off topic, but since I got the info that led me to make the
purchase/decision from this list, I thought I would share with you all. [...]39_16Nov200502:32:03+0200tolife18@JUNO.COM 15404 47 27_Re: ot: school bus purchase11_Rick Dinitz16_dinitz@TIBCO.COM31_Tue, 15 Nov 2005 16:31:15 -0800581_ISO-8859-1 And it's a cool, real-life chemistry lab on wheels, too!

Kol tuv,
-Rick

Avivah Werner wrote:

> This is off topic, but since I got the info that led me to make the
> purchase/decision from this list, I thought I would share with you all.
>
> We recently purchased a mini school bus for our family use, with the
> intent to convert it to run on waste vegetable oil. Moriah shared a
> link about a similar vehicle that was making educational 'stops'
> throughout the country, and I did a bunch of research following that
> [...]38_15Nov200516:31:15-0800dinitz@TIBCO.COM 15452 50 27_Re: ot: school bus purchase13_Barbara Mazor19_barbmazor@YAHOO.COM31_Tue, 15 Nov 2005 19:29:44 -0800290_iso-8859-1 >>We recently purchased a mini school bus for our family use, with the intent to convert it to run on waste vegetable oil. <<

Tell us more! Where do you get the oil from? Does it smell like french fried when you drive? List some web-sites where you did the research. [...]41_15Nov200519:29:44-0800barbmazor@YAHOO.COM 15503 146 27_Re: ot: school bus purchase9_beth mali18_malikids@GMAIL.COM31_Tue, 15 Nov 2005 19:41:53 -0800573_ISO-8859-1 My brother lives in California and he has two veggie vehicles that he
converted. One was a big huge crew cab dually, dubbed --the Freedom Fryer
and his other is a Peugot, dubbed(you could have guessed)--the French Fryer.
For a time he was getting free fresh organic oil from Spectrum Oils. Between
different oil pressings the lines have to be sterilized and they can have 50
gallons in a line I am told. Some do gooder decided to offer them money for
their waste product and the cost of free oil was no longer free. Now I think
he gets [...]40_15Nov200519:41:53-0800malikids@GMAIL.COM 15650 26 10_school bus15_Michelle Miller25_michelletamar@HOTMAIL.COM31_Tue, 15 Nov 2005 23:03:31 -0700655_- Avivah,

I would also like to see you write an article for Natural Jewish Parenting.
You are indeed a trendsetter:)

Michelle

_________________________________________________________________
FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar – get it now!
http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by
Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org,
a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and
an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...]47_15Nov200523:03:31-0700michelletamar@HOTMAIL.COM 15677 26 31_Re: Not ot: school bus purchase14_Malkie Swidler24_swidler@NETVISION.NET.IL31_Wed, 16 Nov 2005 10:11:39 +0200625_ISO-8859-1 This is NOT off topic, this is homeschooling at its finest!

Details, Aviva, we're clamoring for details over here! What conversions
kit did you use, how do we get information on it, how much did the whole
project cost you, how much is it costing you now, tell us everything!!

Malkie

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by
Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org,
a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and
an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...]46_16Nov200510:11:39+0200swidler@NETVISION.NET.IL 15704 38 27_Implementing Singapore Math14_Malkie Swidler24_swidler@NETVISION.NET.IL31_Wed, 16 Nov 2005 15:03:22 +0200597_ISO-8859-1 We've finished Miquon math and began Singapore Math 3B last week. Nadiv
is more than half-way through the 3B book already. He's familiar with
most of the material and what little new stuff there is is so clearly
presented that he's just eating right through it.

However, we will (eventually, in book 4B) hit all new material. So I am
curious about how other people implement Singapore math in their homes.
Do you do one subsection, and then the workbook a different day? The
same day? Do you often find yourself doing the whole unit all at once?
Do you [...]46_16Nov200515:03:22+0200swidler@NETVISION.NET.IL 15743 66 27_Re: ot: school bus purchase13_gilla s weiss20_weissfambh@YAHOO.COM31_Wed, 16 Nov 2005 05:35:52 -0800359_iso-8859-1 What an amazing idea!! Kol Hakavod to you , this is not just thinking and dreaming about something but actually doing it. I would be interested to know more, like what it cost to convert? who did it ? do you use your own veggie oil? How much does a school bus cost anyway? How much were the kids involved in this "project"?
Thanks
Gilla [...]42_16Nov200505:35:52-0800weissfambh@YAHOO.COM 15810 48 38_Re: chemistry lab / science homeschool15_Merilyn Chesler17_merilyn@ABSOL.COM31_Wed, 16 Nov 2005 09:45:38 -0500409_- >My kids are still young, but I still have the philosophy that when given
>a well rounded exposure to different kinds of learning, they'll gravitate
>and explore what is of interest to them. And they'll retain what they the
>learn from their own curiosity. There are so many people who have
>graduated and have no memory of any science they "learned" in school,
>even if they got "A's". [...]39_16Nov200509:45:38-0500merilyn@ABSOL.COM 15859 75 26_Re: why do you homeschool?0_17_RENALEVIN@AOL.COM29_Wed, 16 Nov 2005 09:40:49 EST316_US-ASCII In a message dated 11/16/05 1:53:21 AM Eastern Standard Time,
LISTSERV@SHAMASH.ORG writes:

> I do think that a short response is helpful t=
> o most people,and when said with a smile and then a quick change of topi=
> c, MOST people get the message that I do not want to talk about it. [...]37_16Nov200509:40:49ESTRENALEVIN@AOL.COM 15935 55 27_Re: ot: school bus purchase14_Moriah Chesler17_merilyn@ABSOL.COM31_Wed, 16 Nov 2005 09:52:14 -0500626_- Would you mind sharing a more technical report on your bus conversion
somewhere on a website or article with pictures? Include pricing &
maintenance cost, please.

Thanks.

Mazel Tov!

On Tue, 15 Nov 2005 15:51:02 -0800, Avivah Werner
wrote:

>This is off topic, but since I got the info that led me to make the
purchase/decision from this list, I thought I would share with you all.
>
> We recently purchased a mini school bus for our family use, with the
intent to convert it to run on waste vegetable oil. Moriah shared a link
about a similar [...]39_16Nov200509:52:14-0500merilyn@ABSOL.COM 15991 31 31_Re: Not ot: school bus purchase12_Yael Resnick22_njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM31_Wed, 16 Nov 2005 10:21:36 -0500134_us-ascii >This is NOT off topic, this is homeschooling at its finest!

I've been thinking exactly the same thing! :)

Yael44_16Nov200510:21:36-0500njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM 16023 74 31_Re: Implementing Singapore Math14_Laya B Jackson17_tolife18@JUNO.COM31_Wed, 16 Nov 2005 17:34:55 +0200335_us-ascii Hey Malkie,
At our house, it depends on the unit and where the head of the kid is.
Sometimes we just use the timer (ala Flylady) and do 15 minutes.
Sometimes my daughter will just know what the right chunk is for her to
do that day.
Laya
(PS we're staying in Petach Tikva for shabbos in the end. xoxox) [...]39_16Nov200517:34:55+0200tolife18@JUNO.COM 16098 16 23_Classical Homeschooling14_Adiya Vilensky25_brilliant.adiya@GMAIL.COM31_Wed, 16 Nov 2005 13:13:03 -0500456_- Is anyone else out there using a "classical" trivium based curriculum
model?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by
Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org,
a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and
an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/

To unsubscribe email: TORCH-D-unsubscribe-request@SHAMASH.ORG47_16Nov200513:13:03-0500brilliant.adiya@GMAIL.COM 16115 91 14_Re: school bus13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Wed, 16 Nov 2005 11:44:51 -0800406_iso-8859-1 I suppose there are worse things than being a trendsetter! :) I sometimes have to laugh at how many non typical choices a person like myself has made, since when I was younger, fitting in and being like everyone else seemed so important. I guess it's just my personality- if I see something that makes sense and seems right to me, I'm willing to do it even if I don't know anyone doing it. [...]44_16Nov200511:44:51-0800avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 16207 51 27_Re: Classical Homeschooling13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Wed, 16 Nov 2005 11:50:47 -0800471_iso-8859-1 If you can get Elianna Scott-Thoenes to respond to this, from Seattle, she is a master of this approach. I have yet to meet anyone who does it better than she does it (not that I've met everyone, obviously :), but I have met a number of hsing moms over the years). I know she responded to this topic several years ago - you can check the archives, though there are some months missing and if her post was written during that time, then it won't be there. [...]44_16Nov200511:50:47-0800avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 16259 113 27_Re: Classical Homeschooling12_Lisa Edwards17_lkraus126@AOL.COM31_Wed, 16 Nov 2005 14:31:37 -0500720_us-ascii I am -- loosely based on "A Well-Trained Mind" by Susan Wise Bauer

- Lisa Edwards (homeschooling 3 in CT)

-----Original Message-----
From: Adiya Vilensky
To: TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG
Sent: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 13:13:03 -0500
Subject: [TORCH-D] Classical Homeschooling

Is anyone else out there using a "classical" trivium based curriculum
model?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by
Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org,
a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and
an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...]39_16Nov200514:31:37-0500lkraus126@AOL.COM 16373 176 27_Re: Classical Homeschooling14_Evelyn Krieger18_ek2000@COMCAST.NET31_Wed, 16 Nov 2005 15:18:55 -0500599_iso-8859-1 Hi,
I have read the book, A Well-trained Mind, and it is wonderful and inspiring. It is also a great resource. The time commitment and discipline is not for everybody, but I think there is something for all to take away from the curriculum and approach. I am using a modified form of this curriculum to fit my daughter's learning styles and our time retraints. The author recommends Latin study. One thing I have noticed is that studying biblical Hebrew (roots, prefixes, and suffixes) is similar and really trains a student to think and "disect" language.
Contanct me if your [...]40_16Nov200515:18:55-0500ek2000@COMCAST.NET 16550 79 26_Re: Better late than early14_Malkie Swidler24_swidler@NETVISION.NET.IL31_Wed, 16 Nov 2005 22:26:30 +0200555_ISO-8859-1 Zara--

After bilingual homeschooling now for a handful of years, I see that the
relative difficulty of the spoken language has little or no correlation
to the number of years that must be spent in school.

I believe the number of years mandated for a child to be in school has
more to do with economic variables such as how many mothers work (and
therefore need childcare, which is "free" in public school) and how long
the government wants to prevent teenagers from competing with adults in
the job market. [...]46_16Nov200522:26:30+0200swidler@NETVISION.NET.IL 16630 86 31_Re: Implementing Singapore Math18_Benjamin H Dickman19_bdickman@LUCENT.COM31_Wed, 16 Nov 2005 17:58:13 -0500550_us-ascii bs'd
Even though my 5th grader Malky attends a school,
I'm doing 3B with her now to fill the gaps.
We hit metric system, and I had to get a tape
measure with metric on one side and English on
the other. Then I told her true stories of
how confusion by GROWN UPS resulted in an airplane
running out of fuel in midair; in a Mars lander
crashing on the Martian surface. (So it's OK if
she finds it hard at first; just making the territory
emotionally safe for her). In other words, I need
to make a custom [...]41_16Nov200517:58:13-0500bdickman@LUCENT.COM 16717 34 31_Re: Implementing Singapore Math16_ZagorskyGoldberg28_zagorskygoldberg@VERIZON.NET31_Wed, 16 Nov 2005 19:57:19 -0500586_iso-8859-1 We've been using Singapore Math for about 4 years now, and I'm very happy
with it. I guess I have not hugely researched all the options available,
b/c I don't even know what the Intensive Practice books you spoke of are!
Anyway, for these low grades (haven't used higher than 4th grade), I just
buy the regular workbooks and don't buy anything else (like the teacher's
book/textbook). I find Singapore makes it easy to figure out how they want
you to teach by how they've set up the examples and problems in the
workbook. Our rule is 2-3 pages/day. [...]50_16Nov200519:57:19-0500zagorskygoldberg@VERIZON.NET 16752 101 26_Re: Better late than early13_gilla s weiss20_weissfambh@YAHOO.COM31_Wed, 16 Nov 2005 18:20:44 -0800554_iso-8859-1 I remember reading in a book by Rahima Baldwin in a chapter on readiness for schooling/reading that a child needs to be able to pat his head with one hand and make a circular motion on his tummy with the other, or maybe it's the other way round, I'm not sure. This might be a way of showing developmental readiness for reading and sounds very similar to your description of what they do in Russia.
I have also read ( according to Steiner ) that childeren should not begin reading till their first tooth falls out, since only then they [...]42_16Nov200518:20:44-0800weissfambh@YAHOO.COM 16854 44 26_Re: Better late than early12_Yael Resnick22_njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM31_Wed, 16 Nov 2005 23:45:57 -0500381_us-ascii I know Gilla wasn't promoting Steiner's ideas by mentioning them
here, but rather just using this as another example of how certain
developmental milestones are thought to correlate to academic
readiness... but to prevent confusion, I just want to put this in
context for anyone who isn't familiar with Steiner ('cause his name
kinda sounds Jewish)... [...]44_16Nov200523:45:57-0500njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM 16899 137 26_Re: Better late than early8_S Sloman18_ssloman@NETLAB.COM31_Thu, 17 Nov 2005 04:17:37 -0500338_us-ascii > I believe the number of years mandated for a child to be in school has

more to do with economic variables such as how many mothers work (and
therefore need childcare, which is "free" in public school) and how long

the government wants to prevent teenagers from competing with adults in
the job market. [...]40_17Nov200504:17:37-0500ssloman@NETLAB.COM 17037 32 26_Re: Better late than early10_Zara Haimo14_zara@HAIMO.NET31_Wed, 16 Nov 2005 21:54:55 -0800340_iso-8859-1 > I believe the number of years mandated for a child to be in school has
> more to do with economic variables such as how many mothers work (and
> therefore need childcare, which is "free" in public school) and how long
> the government wants to prevent teenagers from competing with adults in
> the job market. [...]36_16Nov200521:54:55-0800zara@HAIMO.NET 17070 78 26_Re: Better late than early14_Laya B Jackson17_tolife18@JUNO.COM31_Thu, 17 Nov 2005 11:34:17 +0200393_us-ascii I'm so glad you mentioned this Ya'el, it happens that I just learned a
bit about him and where he was coming from. I don't believe that this is
off topic at all since this is a Torah based group, it's relevant to
discuss various educational approaches. And it's exceptionally relevant
if the approach has an undertone that us meant to undermine the G-d of
Israel. [...]39_17Nov200511:34:17+0200tolife18@JUNO.COM 17149 72 20_Re: Steiner/ Waldorf17_Chana Silberstein16_cs32@CORNELL.EDU31_Thu, 17 Nov 2005 07:53:35 -0500645_us-ascii >I know Gilla wasn't promoting Steiner's ideas by mentioning them
>here, but rather just using this as another example of how certain
>developmental milestones are thought to correlate to academic
>readiness... but to prevent confusion, I just want to put this in
>context for anyone who isn't familiar with Steiner ('cause his name
>kinda sounds Jewish)...
>
>Rudolf Steiner was the founder of Anthroposophy and the Waldorf
>School movement, and without going into detail, which is very
>off-topic, suffice it to say that his philosophy and ideas have
>nothing at all to do with Torah.
>
>Yael [...]38_17Nov200507:53:35-0500cs32@CORNELL.EDU 17222 56 18_More about Waldorf17_Chana Silberstein16_cs32@CORNELL.EDU31_Thu, 17 Nov 2005 10:26:52 -0500636_us-ascii Some other "hallmarks" of the Waldorf years:

The day begins with a "main lesson", which is an integrated look at
some subject or other. Think "unit studies." After some singing (
voice is the first instrument) and music to open the day ( recorder
is taught early), the teacher presents the material. Children make
their own books. ( Some of this is dictated, or copied from the
board; children do their own illustrations; some is their own
material.)
Knitting and needlework, art, woodworking and movement are well
incorporated into the curriculum in structured ways, as is nature
study. [...]38_17Nov200510:26:52-0500cs32@CORNELL.EDU 17279 117 20_Re: Steiner/ Waldorf13_gilla s weiss20_weissfambh@YAHOO.COM31_Thu, 17 Nov 2005 07:37:56 -0800652_iso-8859-1 I just wanted to second that before we go off topic, I definately wasn't promoting Steiner's philososphy because it is not in line with Torah , even though there are people who see it only as a whole child philosophy there is definately more"goyish spiritual" ??stuff/philosophy in there and jewish parents need to know that while they do promote a curriculim based on arts music nature and storytelling which we can use like chana said with pre-schoolers and substitute our own parsha/middos stories, we otherwise should keep a distance from the steiner movement.
kol tuv
Gilla
Chana Silberstein wrote:
[...]42_17Nov200507:37:56-0800weissfambh@YAHOO.COM 17397 75 14_Re: readiness?0_17_RENALEVIN@AOL.COM29_Thu, 17 Nov 2005 10:55:06 EST649_US-ASCII In a message dated 11/17/05 1:53:18 AM Eastern Standard Time,
LISTSERV@SHAMASH.ORG writes:

> have also read ( according to Steiner ) that childeren should not begin
> reading till their first tooth falls out, since only then they are
> developmentally ready.
>

My homeopathic doctor is big into anthroposophic philosophy, i.e., Steiner,
Waldorf education, etc. He says that children are not ready to do math until
their 2 top front teeth have erupted. Interesting, huh? reading when the first
tooth falls out, then add formal math studies a bit later, after 4 teeth have
fallen out and then grown [...]37_17Nov200510:55:06ESTRENALEVIN@AOL.COM 17473 176 27_Re: Classical Homeschooling14_Amber Vilensky25_brilliant.adiya@GMAIL.COM31_Thu, 17 Nov 2005 10:57:42 -0500584_ISO-8859-1 Nice to know we're not alone!
I have *The Well Trained Mind, *and are using it as our planning model, but
I run into problems with the recommended reading and memorization lists;
most are European and christian oriented. We are trying to adjust this to a
more world and Jewish point of view. Ideas?
I'm hesitant to drop Latin all together, but again the texts used will be a
problem. We do plan on teaching Russian and Hebrew, a necessity to speak to
family really, so there is no shortage of language practice. But Latin does
have value to it [...]47_17Nov200510:57:42-0500brilliant.adiya@GMAIL.COM 17650 28 12_Shiller math25_Michael and Nadine Postol20_mnpostol@COMCAST.NET31_Thu, 17 Nov 2005 11:42:43 -0500575_ISO-8859-1 I'm wondering if anyone has used Shiller Math. I will be homeschooling
next year and am trying to figure out which curriculums to consider
using. My daughter is currently in 2nd gr. at an Orthodox Montessori
school. Shiller is suppossed to be Montessori based, so hopefully it
would be an easy transition for her. I'm also trying to decide if we
should use a Hebrew/limudei kodesh course or just hire a tutor. (My
Ivrit skills are limited to basic elementary and unless the course has
lots of English explanations it would be worthless.) [...]42_17Nov200511:42:43-0500mnpostol@COMCAST.NET 17679 170 18_Re: chemistry labs14_Amber Vilensky25_brilliant.adiya@GMAIL.COM31_Thu, 17 Nov 2005 13:30:58 -0500687_ISO-8859-1 Malki,
I grew up in CA, so your question has made me poke around NY online a
little and I found some really interesting field trip ideas.
We have at least 3 different observatories, many electricity museums (NY
Power Authority, Sony...), Conservatories, not to mention the botanic, the
natural history museum, the aquarium. You said you are in Monsey, there is a
science nature walk offered there.
Just think about any companies or public works that relate to what you're
studying, most will offer tours if you ask.
http://www.usoe.k12.ut.us/curr/science/sciber00/8th/8thintro.htm
This site has some interesting project ideas, I want to try [...]47_17Nov200513:30:58-0500brilliant.adiya@GMAIL.COM 17850 86 6_groups16_ZagorskyGoldberg28_zagorskygoldberg@VERIZON.NET31_Thu, 17 Nov 2005 13:48:23 -0500636_iso-8859-1 Hi Adiya,

Hope I'm understanding your question correctly. There are two religiously-inclusive homeschool discussion groups, both through Yahoo groups. One is "Chevra" and the other is "Jewish Homeschoolers" at www.groups.yahoo.com. This is, as far as I know, the only group for Torah-observant hs'ers.

All the best,

Ellen in Boston
in our 6th year of homeschooling
mama to Batsheva (10), Chana (8), Penina B. (almost 3) and ??? due at Pesach
Move to Malden--my shul will even loan you the downpayment for a home!
www.bethisraelmalden.com (you already know there are homeschoolers here!) [...]50_17Nov200513:48:23-0500zagorskygoldberg@VERIZON.NET 17937 35 7_waldorf15_Michelle Miller25_michelletamar@HOTMAIL.COM31_Thu, 17 Nov 2005 12:35:01 -0700465_- I agree with Chana's post that integrating some Waldorf methods works well.
My son (11) is a very traditional, self-motivated learner, which makes my
job easier. My daughter (7) spends about an hour every morning coloring,
cutting, pasting, studying art books, sewing buttons, and other tactile
endeavors before we really get going on academics. That's just who she is
and I have just gone with the flow on this. Everyone is happier that way. [...]47_17Nov200512:35:01-0700michelletamar@HOTMAIL.COM 17973 71 16_Re: Shiller math14_Sigal Gottlieb23_sigalgottlieb@YAHOO.COM31_Thu, 17 Nov 2005 15:49:09 -0800496_iso-8859-1 Hi Nadine,

We've been using Shiller for 1 1/2 years. I also use
singapore for my 7 yo who loves workbooks. I like
Shiller a lot, it encourages mathematical thinking and
not just drill. It is a spiral type method, in which
you go back to the same topic over and over at higher
levels.

I am a mathematician and like the idea of mathematical
thinking rather than just "skill drill". On the other
hand, the drill in Singapore helps reinforce ideas. [...]45_17Nov200515:49:09-0800sigalgottlieb@YAHOO.COM 18045 60 20_Re: Steiner/ Waldorf12_Yael Resnick22_njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM31_Thu, 17 Nov 2005 23:30:40 -0500531_us-ascii Since Anthroposophy (which everyone seems to agree is extremely
not-kosher) and Waldorf education are so closely intertwined, I feel
that it's potentially dangerous to try to selectively incorporate
elements of the Waldorf approach.

But, in my opinion, much of what is good and appealing about Waldorf
(the emphasis on play for young children, etc., as summarized very
nicely by Chana) is fairly "neutral" stuff that many people already
do without ever associating these things with Waldorf. [...]44_17Nov200523:30:40-0500njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM 18106 30 20_Re: Steiner/ Waldorf12_Yael Resnick22_njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM31_Thu, 17 Nov 2005 23:33:16 -0500472_us-ascii Gilla managed to say in one succinct sentence what took me several
paragraphs.... This is very clearly stated, and I agree!

Yael

>jewish parents need to know that while they do promote a curriculim
>based on arts music nature and storytelling which we can use like
>chana said with pre-schoolers and substitute our own parsha/middos
>stories, we otherwise should keep a distance from the steiner
>movement.
>kol tuv
>Gilla [...]44_17Nov200523:33:16-0500njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM 18137 25 38_Re: chemistry lab / science homeschool12_Yael Resnick22_njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM31_Thu, 17 Nov 2005 23:56:17 -0500589_us-ascii Moriah, this is a beautiful bracha. Amen and thank you.

Yael

> I wish for all of us Jews to fill up their brains with
>nutritious wholesome Torah everyday, a 100% fulfilling satisfying brain food
>for our Jewish neshamos, Kosher-approved by HaShem.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by
Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org,
a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and
an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...]44_17Nov200523:56:17-0500njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM 18163 33 20_Re: Steiner/ Waldorf14_Laya B Jackson17_tolife18@JUNO.COM31_Sat, 19 Nov 2005 22:19:08 +0200481_us-ascii I don't want to over do this topic but I do have one more piece to add
since the discussion has continued.

I did a google search and found that at a Waldorf site there are links to
the "myths" about Waldorf. Notably there was one "myth" that
anthroposophy is anti Semitic. For me that's a red flag in and of
itself. The quotes at that site also said quite blatantly that anyone
who makes that accusation is "stupid" (direct quote from Steiner). [...]39_19Nov200522:19:08+0200tolife18@JUNO.COM 18197 42 18_Re: chemistry labs19_malkiadler@juno.com19_malkiadler@JUNO.COM29_Sun, 20 Nov 2005 00:06:13 GMT485_- Thanks. Like I mentioned previously, I now live in Michigan, but your ideas are good for any state!
Malki

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by
Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org,
a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and
an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/

To unsubscribe email: TORCH-D-unsubscribe-request@SHAMASH.ORG39_20Nov200500:06:13GMTmalkiadler@JUNO.COM 18240 35 20_Re: Steiner/ Waldorf12_Yael Resnick22_njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM31_Sat, 19 Nov 2005 20:20:19 -0500500_us-ascii A few years ago I ran a section in Natural Jewish Parenting (issue
#7) questioning whether Waldorf Education is appropriate for Jewish
children. There were several articles covering various aspects of the
question. If you google "Natural Jewish Parenting," the second link
to come up is a site run by a "Waldorf critic" named Dan Dugan, who
wrote one of the pieces published in NJP. I gave him permission to
reprint some of the articles from that section on his site. [...]44_19Nov200520:20:19-0500njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM 18276 93 16_Re: Shiller math12_Caryn Lipson24_caryn_lipson@HOTMAIL.COM31_Sun, 20 Nov 2005 09:53:36 -0500632_iso-8859-1 where do I find the shiller math website?

Thanks.

Caryn

----- Original Message -----
From: "Sigal Gottlieb"
To:
Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2005 6:49 PM
Subject: Re: [TORCH-D] Shiller math

> Hi Nadine,
>
> We've been using Shiller for 1 1/2 years. I also use
> singapore for my 7 yo who loves workbooks. I like
> Shiller a lot, it encourages mathematical thinking and
> not just drill. It is a spiral type method, in which
> you go back to the same topic over and over at higher
> levels.
>
> I am a [...]46_20Nov200509:53:36-0500caryn_lipson@HOTMAIL.COM 18370 131 16_Re: Shiller math14_Sigal Gottlieb23_sigalgottlieb@YAHOO.COM31_Sun, 20 Nov 2005 06:59:35 -0800643_iso-8859-1 www.shillermath.com

--- Caryn Lipson wrote:

> where do I find the shiller math website?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Caryn
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Sigal Gottlieb"
> To:
> Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2005 6:49 PM
> Subject: Re: [TORCH-D] Shiller math
>
>
> > Hi Nadine,
> >
> > We've been using Shiller for 1 1/2 years. I also
> use
> > singapore for my 7 yo who loves workbooks. I like
> > Shiller a lot, it encourages mathematical thinking
> and
> > not just drill. [...]45_20Nov200506:59:35-0800sigalgottlieb@YAHOO.COM 18502 40 59_Re: TORCH-D Digest - 20 Nov 2005 to 21 Nov 2005 (#2005-265)25_Michael and Nadine Postol20_mnpostol@COMCAST.NET31_Mon, 21 Nov 2005 12:41:59 -0500709_ISO-8859-1 Dear Caryn:

Try this:

Larry Shiller
http://www.shillermath.com

888-556-MATH (888-556-6284)

Yours,
Nadine

>
>where do I find the shiller math website?
>
>Thanks.
>
>Caryn
>
>
>
>

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by
Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org,
a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and
an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/

To unsubscribe email: TORCH-D-unsubscribe-request@SHAMASH.ORG42_21Nov200512:41:59-0500mnpostol@COMCAST.NET 18543 166 16_Re: Shiller math24_swidler@netvision.net.il24_swidler@NETVISION.NET.IL31_Tue, 22 Nov 2005 02:09:16 -0500537_iso-8859-1 We looked into Shiller Math and it looks great! I especially thought that
my ds, coming from completing the Miquon system, would love the second
Shiller Math. So I showed both the Shiller and Singapore materials to the
end user-- my son. And he chose Singapore (and yes, I'm a little
disappointed, because Shiller looks like so much fun!). Ds sees
manipulatives as distractions. Meanwhile, we actually do the parts of
Singapore where they suggest "go fill up a bucket with water", so I'm
happy, too. [...]46_22Nov200502:09:16-0500swidler@NETVISION.NET.IL 18710 60 12_Shiller Math12_Caryn Lipson24_caryn_lipson@HOTMAIL.COM31_Tue, 22 Nov 2005 07:17:38 -0500730_iso-8859-1 Thanks for the link. Has anyone used the diagnostic kit? Is it worth it?

----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael and Nadine Postol"
To:
Sent: Monday, November 21, 2005 12:41 PM
Subject: Re: [TORCH-D] TORCH-D Digest - 20 Nov 2005 to 21 Nov 2005
(#2005-265)

> Dear Caryn:
>
> Try this:
>
> Larry Shiller
> http://www.shillermath.com
>
4>
> 888-556-MATH (888-556-6284)
>
> Yours,
> Nadine
>
> >
> >where do I find the shiller math website?
> >
> >Thanks.
> >
> >Caryn
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
[...]46_22Nov200507:17:38-0500caryn_lipson@HOTMAIL.COM 18771 178 26_Re: Math and Manipulatives17_Chana Silberstein16_cs32@CORNELL.EDU31_Tue, 22 Nov 2005 14:59:10 -0500666_us-ascii In my other life, as a developmental psychologist, I actually ran
experiments showing that manipulatives could sometimes impede
mathematical understanding.
For example, in teaching geometry, the best manipulative was a piece
of paper with lines and dots drawn on it ( or lines and dots drawn on
a ball).
The more "dimensional" the manipulation ( walking lines, toy cars
driving along straight roads, etc.), the worse the mathematical
intuition.
Unnecessary manipulative characteristics could make it harder for
kids to see the abstract power of mathermatics.
When it comes to math manipulatives, it seems less is more. [...]38_22Nov200514:59:10-0500cs32@CORNELL.EDU 18950 24 29_a tidbit about Singapore math14_Laya B Jackson17_tolife18@JUNO.COM31_Tue, 22 Nov 2005 19:47:55 +0200582_us-ascii When we started Singapore math, it was recommended to me by a veteran
home schooler that we use the text book as a consumable workbook. So the
kids write in the text book as if it's a workbook too. It seems to be a
nice system for us.

KT
Laya

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by
Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org,
a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and
an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...]39_22Nov200519:47:55+0200tolife18@JUNO.COM 18975 234 26_Re: Math and Manipulatives16_Russell J Hendel17_rjhendel@JUNO.COM31_Tue, 22 Nov 2005 22:47:23 -0500535_us-ascii Chana
I am a professional mathematician---and have written and studied math ed
matters. The general trend today is (as one person put it) 'You never
teach...rather you let the student construct for themselves." But then
manipulatives are only bad when the student is forced to use the concepts
involved BEFORE they have constructed it themselves. Manipulatives, WHEN
USED TO ENCOURAGE DISCOVERY (BY AN INSTRUCTR WHO KNOWS HOW TO GUIDE vs
TEACH) can be positively pedagogically effective.
Russell; [...]39_22Nov200522:47:23-0500rjhendel@JUNO.COM 19210 35 22_Math and Manipulatives25_Michael and Nadine Postol20_mnpostol@COMCAST.NET31_Wed, 23 Nov 2005 09:06:16 -0500658_ISO-8859-1 Hi Chana-

I'm curious to know if your research included observations in Montessori
classrooms. I've yet to see the downside of maipulatives as implimented
and practiced by well skilled Montessori trained facilitators.In
kindergarten, my 5 yr. old was computing 4 place addition and
multiplication problems. Now in 2nd gr, she's learning how to move into
abstact thinking,and rely less on the materials that helped her
understand the process. It's amazing to watch.
I wish I had the time to get the training to teach this myself. My
husband, who is a mathematician, is very pleased with the whole concept,
as [...]42_23Nov200509:06:16-0500mnpostol@COMCAST.NET 19246 321 26_Re: Math and Manipulatives17_Chana Silberstein16_cs32@CORNELL.EDU31_Wed, 23 Nov 2005 10:08:00 -0500452_us-ascii >Chana
>I am a professional mathematician---and have written and studied
>math ed matters. The general trend today is (as one person put it)
>'You never teach...rather you let the student construct for
>themselves."

I have seen mixed success with this. Just as in Rashi, you lay down
the principles which students can use to explore the nuances of
Rashi, math needs a framework laid down for effective discovery. [...]38_23Nov200510:08:00-0500cs32@CORNELL.EDU 19568 450 56_Re: Math and Manipulatives//Teaching by Rote vs Concepts16_Russell J Hendel17_rjhendel@JUNO.COM31_Thu, 24 Nov 2005 10:31:05 -0500575_us-ascii Chana and Nadine
YOU WRITE: I have seen mixed success with this. Just as in Rashi, you lay
down the principles which students can use to explore the nuances of
Rashi, math needs a framework laid down for effective discovery.

RESPONSE: No. Math is a FORMAL FINITE FIXED System. There are EXACTLY 4
operations; there are EXACTLY half a dozen techniques used to solve
linear equations. A person who has mastered these 4 operations or half a
dozen techniques can perform any mathematical operatioin and solve any
single linear equation. [...]39_24Nov200510:31:05-0500rjhendel@JUNO.COM 20019 68 26_Re: Math and Manipulatives17_Chana Silberstein16_cs32@CORNELL.EDU31_Thu, 24 Nov 2005 15:17:05 -0500665_us-ascii >Hi Chana-
>
>I'm curious to know if your research included observations in
>Montessori classrooms. I've yet to see the downside of maipulatives
>as implimented and practiced by well skilled Montessori trained
>facilitators.In kindergarten, my 5 yr. old was computing 4 place
>addition and multiplication problems. Now in 2nd gr, she's learning
>how to move into abstact thinking,and rely less on the materials
>that helped her understand the process. It's amazing to watch. I
>wish I had the time to get the training to teach this myself. My
>husband, who is a mathematician, is very pleased with the whole
>concept, [...]38_24Nov200515:17:05-0500cs32@CORNELL.EDU 20088 62 24_My daughter is engaged!!14_Chaya Phillips27_callmeforavon@BELLSOUTH.NET31_Thu, 24 Nov 2005 21:31:42 -0500614_iso-8859-1 My daughter Danielle, got engaged today! His name is Zevy Kizelnik, and the chuppah will be in March.
Chaya Phillips
Certified Avon Beauty Advisor
561-674-2099
view my website
http://www.youravon.com/chayaphillips

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by
Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org,
a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and
an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/

To unsubscribe email: TORCH-D-unsubscribe-request@SHAMASH.ORG49_24Nov200521:31:42-0500callmeforavon@BELLSOUTH.NET 20151 56 28_Re: My daughter is engaged!!13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Thu, 24 Nov 2005 18:46:04 -0800593_iso-8859-1 Mazel tov, Chaya! May you all have much happiness and nachas!

Avivah

My daughter Danielle, got engaged today! His name is Zevy Kizelnik, and the chuppah will be in March.
Chaya Phillips
Certified Avon Beauty Advisor
561-674-2099
view my website
http://www.youravon.com/chayaphillips

---------------------------------
The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network, a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies. To unsubscribe email TORCH-D-unsubscribe-request@SHAMASH.ORG [...]44_24Nov200518:46:04-0800avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 20208 34 28_Re: My daughter is engaged!!14_Malkie Swidler24_swidler@NETVISION.NET.IL31_Fri, 25 Nov 2005 10:12:09 +0200469_ISO-8859-1 Mazel tov to the happy couple! May they build a Bayit Ne'eman B'Yisrael!

Malkie

Avivah Werner wrote:
> Mazel tov, Chaya! May you all have much happiness and nachas!
>
> Avivah
>
> My daughter Danielle, got engaged today! His name is Zevy
> Kizelnik, and the chuppah will be in March.
> Chaya Phillips
> Certified Avon Beauty Advisor
> 561-674-2099
> view my website
> http://www.youravon.com/chayaphillips [...]46_25Nov200510:12:09+0200swidler@NETVISION.NET.IL 20243 102 28_Re: My daughter is engaged!!14_Laya B Jackson17_tolife18@JUNO.COM31_Fri, 25 Nov 2005 08:33:35 +0200588_us-ascii mazel tov Chaya!!! We just went to an engagement party last night and
it's amazing to look at such glowing young faces with so much hope and
promise. May you all have many simchas to celebrate together in the
years to come.
Laya

On Thu, 24 Nov 2005 21:31:42 -0500 Chaya Phillips
writes:
My daughter Danielle, got engaged today! His name is Zevy Kizelnik, and
the chuppah will be in March.
Chaya Phillips
Certified Avon Beauty Advisor
561-674-2099
view my website
http://www.youravon.com/chayaphillips [...]39_25Nov200508:33:35+0200tolife18@JUNO.COM 20346 341 56_Re: Math and Manipulatives//Teaching by Rote vs Concepts17_Chana Silberstein16_cs32@CORNELL.EDU31_Fri, 25 Nov 2005 08:35:29 -0500635_us-ascii >
>
>Here is a simple example:I present the following story to say 1st graders
>==============================================
>Little joey wants a candy. I walk into a candy store buy 4 candies, and give
>the owner a $1. He in turn rings it up and gives me back 60 cents.
>
>QUESTIONS FOR DISCUSSION
>Was it fair that I got back 60 cents
>What would be needed to verify that the 60 cents is fair
>How would the problem change if I only bought 1 candy or 5 candy
>===============================================
>
>In this example I HAVE NOT TAUGHT OR TRANSMITTED ANY KNOWLEDGE
[...]38_25Nov200508:35:29-0500cs32@CORNELL.EDU 20688 57 6_Update15_Nicole Brackman18_drnb1969@YAHOO.COM31_Fri, 25 Nov 2005 07:06:47 -0800534_iso-8859-1 BS"D
Hi everyone,

It's been quite some time since I've been in touch. I think a few of you know that I ended up putting my eldest daughter (5) back in school in October. With a new baby, a very needy 2 year old, trying to sell our house, and a kindergartner who really needed a LOT of attention (she wants to be "on task" with schoolwork for extended periods and really needs/wants my constant input) I was just going nuts. Her school agreed to take her on scholarship for however long we are still in town. [...]40_25Nov200507:06:47-0800drnb1969@YAHOO.COM 20746 119 28_Re: My daughter is engaged!!12_Caryn Lipson24_caryn_lipson@HOTMAIL.COM31_Fri, 25 Nov 2005 10:50:22 -0500695_iso-8859-1 Mazal Tov!

----- Original Message -----
From: Chaya Phillips
To: TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG
Sent: Thursday, November 24, 2005 9:31 PM
Subject: [TORCH-D] My daughter is engaged!!

My daughter Danielle, got engaged today! His name is Zevy Kizelnik, and the chuppah will be in March.
Chaya Phillips
Certified Avon Beauty Advisor
561-674-2099
view my website
http://www.youravon.com/chayaphillips

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network, a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies. [...]46_25Nov200510:50:22-0500caryn_lipson@HOTMAIL.COM 20866 106 26_Re: Math and Manipulatives12_Caryn Lipson24_caryn_lipson@HOTMAIL.COM31_Fri, 25 Nov 2005 11:19:10 -0500566_iso-8859-1 My daughter who we took out of school in the middle of her sixth grade year
last year has always had difficulty with math and when I gave her the
Singapore placement recently we went down to their 4th grade level which she
didn't answer all. I think that sometimes she really doesn't "get it" and
sometimes she's afraid to try. I found when she was in school that I would
use popsicles to help her with word problems. Sometimes I just have to help
her break things down and make her think (i.e.18/4 - what's 18/2, what's
9/2 and [...]46_25Nov200511:19:10-0500caryn_lipson@HOTMAIL.COM 20973 65 46_Re: was Update, now behavior and socialization13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Fri, 25 Nov 2005 10:00:11 -0800321_iso-8859-1 >>Plus, even in kindergarten, my formerly sweet and innocent 5 year old daughter is coming home with a lot of "attitude." Now, this may be development ally normal (is it?) and to be expected anyway, but I *know* that a lot of it is peer-driven. Not happy about that at all. So much for "socialization."<< [...]44_25Nov200510:00:11-0800avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 21039 31 10_Re: Update12_Yael Resnick22_njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM31_Fri, 25 Nov 2005 12:43:49 -0500332_us-ascii >Plus, even in kindergarten, my formerly sweet and innocent 5 year
>old daughter is coming home with a lot of "attitude." Now, this may
>be development ally normal (is it?) and to be expected anyway, but I
>*know* that a lot of it is peer-driven. Not happy about that at all.
>So much for "socialization." [...]44_25Nov200512:43:49-0500njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM 21071 51 28_Re: My daughter is engaged!!5_Wendy28_wendybernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET31_Fri, 25 Nov 2005 11:56:32 -0500434_iso-8859-1 Mazal tov, Mazal Tov! I'm shepping some nachas, here...Danielle is my "6th
kid," and boarded by us for a couple of years. Only simchos!
Wendy in Miami
Mom to Esti, Moshe Yosef, Akiva, Rachmy and Chevi
----- Original Message -----
From: "Malkie Swidler"
To:
Sent: Friday, November 25, 2005 3:12 AM
Subject: Re: [TORCH-D] My daughter is engaged!! [...]50_25Nov200511:56:32-0500wendybernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET 21123 29 46_Re: was Update, now behavior and socialization14_Malkie Swidler24_swidler@NETVISION.NET.IL31_Sat, 26 Nov 2005 21:31:33 +0200454_ISO-8859-1 What Aviva said.

There are things that are okay to bring home from school (friends,
homework, the chicken pox) and there are things that are NOT okay to
bring home (school property, a bad attitude). And it's up to you to be
the grown-up and guide your daughter toward appropriate behavior.

Now, as for everything else Aviva said, B'sha'a tova!! No wonder you
were on about mothers with seven children!! :) :) :) [...]46_26Nov200521:31:33+0200swidler@NETVISION.NET.IL 21153 54 46_Re: was Update, now behavior and socialization13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Sat, 26 Nov 2005 15:51:12 -0800407_iso-8859-1 Well, actually, Malkie, I asked about moms who homeschooled more than 7 kids because that is the maximum number I personally know of being homeschooled in frum families. My own family size was kind of incidental to the post, except that as a family on the slightly larger size, I would love to have a role model in the frum world for what I am trying to achieve by homeschooling my kids. :) [...]44_26Nov200515:51:12-0800avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 21208 342 24_My daughter is engaged!!11_Susan Lapin20_suelap@EARTHLINK.NET31_Sat, 26 Nov 2005 19:13:04 -0800569_US-ASCII Chaya,

Mazal tov. Our daughter, Rena, just became a kallah as well. We're also
hoping for a March chuppah, though we haven't found a place yet, so the date
is still up for grabs. This is the daughter about whom I was told when she
was eight years old, that I should seriously reconsider hschooling because
she might not get a shidduch. In my naivite, I couldn't quite understand why
anyone would care where she went to third grade. The truth is, anyone we
would be interested in, wouldn't care, though incredibly other people do. [...]42_26Nov200519:13:04-0800suelap@EARTHLINK.NET 21551 43 28_Re: My daughter is engaged!!12_ruthie thurm21_ruthiethurm@YAHOO.COM31_Sat, 26 Nov 2005 19:26:02 -0800593_iso-8859-1 dear chaya... mazal tov on such wonderful news...! it's always so nice to hear besoros tovos... kol sasson vekol simcha kol chatan vekol kallah....!

ruthie...

---------------------------------
Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs. Try it free.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by
Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org,
a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and
an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/43_26Nov200519:26:02-0800ruthiethurm@YAHOO.COM 21595 338 46_Re: was Update, now behavior and socialization11_Susan Lapin20_suelap@EARTHLINK.NET31_Sat, 26 Nov 2005 19:36:49 -0800605_US-ASCII Avivah,

>>>This is not developmentally appropriate, regardless of how many similarly
socialized kids act that way.<<<

Yes. Yes. Yes. I was recently approached about writing a child raising book
(which I'm not going to do now, because what I am working on is a Hebrew
curriculum) and started to ask my kids what they most appreciated about the
way we raised them- I decided my ego wasn't ready to hear what they wish we
had done differently. I was truly surprised when the first thing my twenty
year old son mentioned, was that we raised them to treat us with [...]42_26Nov200519:36:49-0800suelap@EARTHLINK.NET 21934 54 46_Re: was Update, now behavior and socialization13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Sat, 26 Nov 2005 21:36:04 -0800543_iso-8859-1 >>We also insisted as best we could (since the adults didn’t always co-operate) that other adults be addressed with a title, not a first name. <<

We also insist on this, and it really bothers me when parents don't. When I was in Seattle and my dh was the shul rabbi, a congregant asked me what she should call me. Being that she was fifteen years my senior, I said my first name was fine. It later became apparent that she took that to mean that all of her kids, including her four year old, could do the same. Finally, [...]44_26Nov200521:36:04-0800avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 21989 592 46_Re: was Update, now behavior and socialization8_S Sloman18_ssloman@NETLAB.COM31_Sun, 27 Nov 2005 07:44:10 -0500587_us-ascii I agree with you about children addressing adults with a title, but
sometimes it feels odd when the family is extremely close, almost like
family. I wasn't sure how to remedy that, until one day when I met a
very nice woman and she introduced me to her children as "Tante
Shoshana". That suited me just fine, because it lacked the
over-familiarity of a child calling me by a first name, yet conveyed
that sense of warmth and family that the more formal "Mrs. Sloman" would
not have. I guess that's a little like calling someone "Miss Jane", in
that [...]40_27Nov200507:44:10-0500ssloman@NETLAB.COM 22582 342 14_Re: high fives8_S Sloman18_ssloman@NETLAB.COM31_Sun, 27 Nov 2005 07:59:27 -0500597_us-ascii > My personal pet peeve is when I see little kids high- fiving any
adult, but specifically a parent. Somehow that strikes me as lowering
the adult to a child's level.

Honestly, this doesn't bother me. However, a rebbe high-fiving the boys
in school, ultimately ended up with his assaulting one of my kids!
Really the worst experience we have had with any school. When the event
was recounted to the principal, she said she didn't know he regularly
high-fived the boys and wouldn't have permitted it because of the type
of physical interaction it invited. [...]40_27Nov200507:59:27-0500ssloman@NETLAB.COM 22925 97 10_Re: Update14_Laya B Jackson17_tolife18@JUNO.COM31_Sun, 27 Nov 2005 08:37:29 +0200577_us-ascii Hi Nicole,
Mostly I want to tell you that you're doing great and that we all
find our way the best way we can. And thanks for bringing beautiful
Jewish neshamas into this world!
I have a couple of things to respond to. First of all, one of my
favorite quotes (don't remember who said it) is that "All parents
homeschool, some just delegate more than others." Meaning, that even if
your child is in school, all that you do is still homeschool. One of the
most important things I learned when beginning my journey was how
important it is [...]39_27Nov200508:37:29+0200tolife18@JUNO.COM 23023 334 28_Re: My daughter is engaged!!14_Laya B Jackson17_tolife18@JUNO.COM31_Sun, 27 Nov 2005 08:44:31 +0200628_us-ascii Mazal tov Susan, and thank you for the strengthening reminder!
I love all these simchas!
Laya

On Sat, 26 Nov 2005 19:13:04 -0800 Susan Lapin
writes:
Chaya,

Mazal tov. Our daughter, Rena, just became a kallah as well. We’re also
hoping for a March chuppah, though we haven’t found a place yet, so the
date is still up for grabs. This is the daughter about whom I was told
when she was eight years old, that I should seriously reconsider
hschooling because she might not get a shidduch. In my naivite, I
couldn’t quite understand why anyone would care [...]39_27Nov200508:44:31+0200tolife18@JUNO.COM 23358 24 10_mazel tovs15_Michelle Miller25_michelletamar@HOTMAIL.COM31_Sun, 27 Nov 2005 01:07:30 -0700637_- Mazel Tov Chaya, Susan, and Aviva! What wonderful news all the way around.

Blessings,
Michelle

_________________________________________________________________
On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for advice on how to
get there! http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by
Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org,
a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and
an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...]47_27Nov200501:07:30-0700michelletamar@HOTMAIL.COM 23383 20 83_Re: ENGAGEMENTS M A Z E L T O V To all who got (are about to get) engaged:) Russell16_Russell J Hendel17_rjhendel@JUNO.COM31_Sun, 27 Nov 2005 07:42:05 -0500470_us-ascii RE: ENGAGEMENTS M A Z E L T O V To all who got (are about to get)
engaged:) Russell

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by
Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org,
a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and
an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/

To unsubscribe email: TORCH-D-unsubscribe-request@SHAMASH.ORG39_27Nov200507:42:05-0500rjhendel@JUNO.COM 23404 28 17_Using first names6_Zohari20_najova@EARTHLINK.NET31_Sun, 27 Nov 2005 06:39:54 -0700471_US-ASCII Out here in Colorado, it is simply the norm to call adults by their first
names. I guess that is part of the relaxed out-west lifestyle here. We
have also implemented the title + first name
to help in this area. I am Mrs. Shoshana to a lot of kids and that seems to
work for them and for me. Kids who can't quite remember whom they are
addressing sometimes go for
Mrs. Vadi's-Mommy or Mrs. Nachshon (my husband's name). Whatever works! ;) [...]42_27Nov200506:39:54-0700najova@EARTHLINK.NET 23433 61 33_Re: Was update, now socialization15_Nicole Brackman18_drnb1969@YAHOO.COM31_Sun, 27 Nov 2005 05:51:44 -0800565_iso-8859-1 BS"D

To Aviva and everyone who offered their ideas, thank you. Respect and good manners are of the utmost importance in our home, and this change for the worse in terms of my 5 y.o. daughter's attitude is quite distressing. We also have raised her, so far, to speak with respect to us and to other adults. You wouldn't believe how difficult it can be to get other adults to agree to being addressed as "Mr./Mrs/Dr." One of my friends actually told me not to do that in front of my daughter, which was extremely irritating to me and confusing [...]40_27Nov200505:51:44-0800drnb1969@YAHOO.COM 23495 37 13_was update...15_Michelle Miller25_michelletamar@HOTMAIL.COM31_Sun, 27 Nov 2005 07:33:26 -0700342_- We have also made it a point that children call us Mr. and Mrs.. It's
astonishing really how many children (including rabbi's) have not been
trained to do this. It is also sad how many adults will adamently insist on
our children using their first name, in which case my children add a Miss.
or Mr. (Mr. Tom or Miss Jane). [...]47_27Nov200507:33:26-0700michelletamar@HOTMAIL.COM 23533 69 17_Re: socialization0_17_RENALEVIN@AOL.COM29_Sun, 27 Nov 2005 10:08:45 EST499_US-ASCII In a message dated 11/27/05 1:51:34 AM Eastern Standard Time,
LISTSERV@SHAMASH.ORG writes:

> Specifically, they had to talk in a respectful tone of voice, not
> directly contradict us and they couldn't refer to us in the third person, in
> other words, he said or she said. It had to be Mommy said or Daddy said. We
> also insisted as best we could (since the adults didn't always co-operate)
> that other adults be addressed with a title, not a first name.
> [...]37_27Nov200510:08:45ESTRENALEVIN@AOL.COM 23603 77 17_Re: socialization0_17_RENALEVIN@AOL.COM29_Sun, 27 Nov 2005 10:14:36 EST419_US-ASCII In a message dated 11/27/05 1:51:34 AM Eastern Standard Time,
LISTSERV@SHAMASH.ORG writes:

> one child of mine recently commented that I was 'so strict', and after
> telling him that it was music to my ears to hear that and he couldn't make me
> happier

I get really annoyed and very concerned when parents say: Well, the most
important thing to me is that my children be HAPPY! [...]37_27Nov200510:14:36ESTRENALEVIN@AOL.COM 23681 177 44_Question mainly for Israeli homeschoolers...15_Rachel Gurevich25_rachel.gurevich@GMAIL.COM31_Sun, 27 Nov 2005 10:58:06 +0200563_ISO-8859-1 Hello,

Hi, everyone. :) I've been a member in the past, left for awhile, and I'm
back again.

We just made aliyah in August with Nefesh B'Nefesh. I have two children, a
six year old and a four year old. The four year old is at home with me, and
right now, my six year old is attending a Mamlachti Dati Torani school, in
Ramat Bet Shemesh. He is in Kita Aleph (first grade). The school is failing
him miserably. It's brand new (consists of one boys teacher, one girls
teacher, and a principal, and THAT IS ALL -- no, [...]47_27Nov200510:58:06+0200rachel.gurevich@GMAIL.COM 23859 58 33_Re: Was update, now socialization13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Sun, 27 Nov 2005 08:17:30 -0800442_iso-8859-1 >>Interestingly, when I went to G's school for her birthday party, they were doing a unit on "derech eretz." Drawing pictures, discussing it, etc. However, not only were the kids not treating each other with derech eretz, the morahs really weren't either (grabbing papers out of the girls' hands before they were done, speaking at the girls in a less-than-friendly tone of voice, etc.). The disconnect was rather startling.<< [...]44_27Nov200508:17:30-0800avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 23918 319 33_Re: Was update, now socialization14_Evelyn Krieger18_ek2000@COMCAST.NET31_Sun, 27 Nov 2005 10:59:45 -0500548_iso-8859-1 I believe I have heard it say that in the era before Moshiach, there will be disrespect among children for their elders. Has anyone else heard this?
I continue to hear and read about as well as observe the lack of derech eretz among frum kids. I see it in shul as well.
One thing I continue to reinforce in my kids is that not only do they represent klal yisrael, they represent our families. When my childeren go to parties and events without me, I remind them that they are "ambassadors of our family" and I must never hear [...]40_27Nov200510:59:45-0500ek2000@COMCAST.NET 24238 115 46_Re: was Update, now behavior and socialization13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Sun, 27 Nov 2005 08:33:10 -0800374_iso-8859-1 Just curious, Shoshana, if you would share the results of your observations, ie, what parenting style seemed to work best? Or maybe to be more clear, what principles did you notice were the common thread? You mentioned your 'strict idealism' might not have been necessary; what are you referring to by that? That you were strict, overly so, or the opposite? [...]44_27Nov200508:33:10-0800avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 24354 455 46_Re: was Update, now behavior and socialization8_S Sloman18_ssloman@NETLAB.COM31_Sun, 27 Nov 2005 11:51:13 -0500562_us-ascii No, when I wrote "strict idealism" I wasn't referring to the level of
strictness. I was referring to my idea that I had to adhere rigidly to
a certain ideal approach (whatever that may be) in order to get the
results I wanted. In my particular case, it was the attachment
parenting model. I had read all the stuff saying that if you don't do
it this way then the kids will grow up alienated or badly behaved or
whatever. So I agonized whenever I fell short of that ideal. But then
I looked around, and my own observations told [...]40_27Nov200511:51:13-0500ssloman@NETLAB.COM 24810 73 17_It Takes A Parent14_Chaya Phillips27_callmeforavon@BELLSOUTH.NET31_Sun, 27 Nov 2005 11:40:57 -0500534_Windows-1252 This is the name of a book I'm reading which is all about this thread. It was written by Betsy Hart. Not a Jewish book, but she quotes Torah, and other Jewish sources that define our menchlikite (I never was a great speller) behaviors we want to instill in our children. I will say I disagree with Mrs. Hart on the attachment parenting chapter, but I can see how AT could get out of hand.
Chaya Phillips
Certified Avon Beauty Advisor
561-674-2099
view my website
http://www.youravon.com/chayaphillips [...]49_27Nov200511:40:57-0500callmeforavon@BELLSOUTH.NET 24884 43 28_Re: My daughter is engaged!!12_ruthie thurm21_ruthiethurm@YAHOO.COM31_Sun, 27 Nov 2005 10:46:19 -0800584_iso-8859-1 dear susan... mazal tov! what a wonderful zechus to merit watching your homeschooled child grow into a beautiful kallah... i"h by us all...

ruthie...

---------------------------------
Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs. Try it free.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by
Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org,
a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and
an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/43_27Nov200510:46:19-0800ruthiethurm@YAHOO.COM 24928 41 23_Re: Respect and Manners16_Russell J Hendel17_rjhendel@JUNO.COM31_Sun, 27 Nov 2005 15:53:17 -0500615_us-ascii Since we are discussing respect and manners I might mention that I am a
member for life for AMIT. AMIT has made wonderful innovations in
schooling. One great innovation is their orphanage BAIT HAYELD in Gilo..
They take children who have one parent who is alcoholic or in prison.Some
of the children have burns and bruises. Almost without exception you
could not recognize any of these children's history after a few years.
The orphanage is structured using units of 1 male social worker and 1
female social worker each unit having about 12 children. The idea is to
recreate a [...]39_27Nov200515:53:17-0500rjhendel@JUNO.COM 24970 94 23_Re: Respect and Manners6_Zohari20_najova@EARTHLINK.NET31_Sun, 27 Nov 2005 19:34:42 -0700359_US-ASCII Just out of curiosity I wonder how many people on this
group are either members or who have heard of AMIT?

Dear Russel,

My great grandmother, Gussie Tanzer, was a founding member of AMIT
when it was called Mizrachi Women. She fundraised over $30,000 and was
rewarded with a trip to Israel after the founding of the State. [...]42_27Nov200519:34:42-0700najova@EARTHLINK.NET 25065 100 48_Re: Question mainly for Israeli homeschoolers...16_Avigayil Simpson26_avigayil_simpson@YAHOO.COM31_Mon, 28 Nov 2005 00:04:28 -0800442_iso-8859-1 Hi,

I live in Rehovot. My daughter is not an olah. She was born here but from day one has had rather serious difficulties with math. For first and second grades she was in the Mamlachti Dati school down the block from us. Very convenient. But she was also falling through the cracks in the system, not getting the help she needed and we were all suffering. She was also crying every morning that she didn't want to go. [...]48_28Nov200500:04:28-0800avigayil_simpson@YAHOO.COM 25166 458 48_Re: Question mainly for Israeli homeschoolers...15_Rachel Gurevich25_rachel.gurevich@GMAIL.COM31_Mon, 28 Nov 2005 16:21:06 +0200561_ISO-8859-1 Hello,

Thank you for the reply, this is very helpful. We have not ruled out moving
to another town, that is also a possibilty. We tried finding out about
private schools, but so far, we don't have any names in our area.

You're right, it's not the only school -- but it is the only one with room,
and this is the problem. This is how we ended up in this school in the first
place. I don't want to go into the whole story, as it's long and
complicated, but essentially the city is not providing enough schools for
[...]47_28Nov200516:21:06+0200rachel.gurevich@GMAIL.COM 25625 164 18_Re: socialization?0_17_RENALEVIN@AOL.COM29_Mon, 28 Nov 2005 10:36:47 EST641_US-ASCII In a message dated 11/28/05 1:51:34 AM Eastern Standard Time,
LISTSERV@SHAMASH.ORG writes:

> Just for information's sake, none of this made me change my preferences
> for certain practices, or my opinions about the best ways to handle
> situations. But it did make me less judgmental about other families,
> and also less pressured that if I didn't always follow a particular
> ideology I would be compromising my children's future. And it also gave
> me the flexibility to consider other approaches, in cases where I found
> it counter-productive to pursue what I had originally considered the
[...]37_28Nov200510:36:47ESTRENALEVIN@AOL.COM 25790 44 13_manipulatives25_Michael and Nadine Postol20_mnpostol@COMCAST.NET31_Mon, 28 Nov 2005 13:00:03 -0500563_us-ascii Caryn-

I wuld suggest reviewing the Shiller site and possibly speaking with Shiller, himself to see if/how you can make this work. I've not spoken with him myself, but I've been told he's very accessable. I know what it's like to "not get it" in math. It's difficult when you feel like you're the one holding back everyone else, just because the teacher is impatient or dosen't get your confusion. Mu husband is a mathmatician. It's a whole different world view. One I am fortunate enough to be given a second chance to see through his eyes. [...]42_28Nov200513:00:03-0500mnpostol@COMCAST.NET 25835 68 16_living is Israel14_Mandy Oeschger23_sailorswife@KNOLOGY.NET31_Mon, 28 Nov 2005 13:49:45 -0600307_iso-8859-1 Avigayil,

I noticed you live in Israel and would love more info. on that if you have time. Can I contact you privately if that's best? Is homeschooling legal in Israel? That is a biggie for me because I do not want to be separated from my children if HaShem willing, we made alliyah. [...]45_28Nov200513:49:45-0600sailorswife@KNOLOGY.NET 25904 175 33_Re: Was update, now socialization14_Mandy Oeschger23_sailorswife@KNOLOGY.NET31_Mon, 28 Nov 2005 14:17:58 -0600316_iso-8859-1 Evelyn,

I believe it is mentioned in the Talmud or possibly the Zohar. Sorry I don't know the exact reference but I have heard of your question and believe there is a rise of disrespect for elders by children before Moshiach comes as well as many other atrocities that are happening even now. [...]45_28Nov200514:17:58-0600sailorswife@KNOLOGY.NET 26080 97 33_Re: Was update, now socialization18_Benjamin H Dickman19_bdickman@LUCENT.COM31_Mon, 28 Nov 2005 19:32:32 -0500650_us-ascii bs'd

I Googled "pnei hakelev" and got great sites:

http://www.shemayisrael.co.il/orgs/rejew/buck2.htm
http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol06/v06n122.shtml#12

and from http://personal.stevens.edu/~llevine/bc_orthodoxy_today.doc :
Rabbi Nehorai says: In the generation when the son of David will come, young
people will shame the elderly, and the elderly will rise before young people. A
daughter will stand against her mother, and a daughter-in-law [will stand]
against her mother-in-law. The face of the generation will be like the face of a
dog, and a son will not be embarrassed before his father. [...]41_28Nov200519:32:32-0500bdickman@LUCENT.COM 26178 226 9_wrestling11_Susan Lapin20_suelap@EARTHLINK.NET31_Mon, 28 Nov 2005 21:36:18 -0800585_us-ascii I've never though about wrestling with kids as its own category, but off the
top of my head, I think there's more than a semantic difference between
rolling around and roughhousing and wrestling. Sometimes I see kids pushing
a father and he pretends to fall and says, "you're so strong" and I would
probably think that's not a good idea, because one doesn't push one's father
to the ground, even if you are able to. Wrestling implies a winner and a
loser, and it doesn't seem right for either father of son to "win"' over the
other. However, I think [...]42_28Nov200521:36:18-0800suelap@EARTHLINK.NET 26405 160 48_Re: Question mainly for Israeli homeschoolers...16_Avigayil Simpson26_avigayil_simpson@YAHOO.COM31_Mon, 28 Nov 2005 23:27:53 -0800543_iso-8859-1 Hi,

Wow. That's crazy! Definitely sounds like you need to look further afield. Don't give up! Keep pushing. Keep asking until you've found something you're happy with. It's out there somewhere.

Good luck!
Avigayil Simpson

Rachel Gurevich wrote:
Hello,

Thank you for the reply, this is very helpful. We have not ruled out moving to another town, that is also a possibilty. We tried finding out about private schools, but so far, we don't have any names in our area. [...]48_28Nov200523:27:53-0800avigayil_simpson@YAHOO.COM 26566 21 33_Re: Was update, now socialization18_Mrs Moriah Chesler17_merilyn@ABSOL.COM31_Tue, 29 Nov 2005 09:11:10 -0500579_- I posted about this a couple of years ago on this very same list about how
rebellious our generation can become, and this is the article that I was
referring to in my post:

http://www.aish.com/literacy/concepts/The_Pre-Messianic_Era.asp

Enjoy!!!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by
Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org,
a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and
an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...]39_29Nov200509:11:10-0500merilyn@ABSOL.COM 26588 88 20_Re: living is Israel16_Avigayil Simpson26_avigayil_simpson@YAHOO.COM31_Mon, 28 Nov 2005 23:25:27 -0800499_iso-8859-1 Hi,
I have lived in Israel for 11 years (originally from CA). You can contact me either way. I don't mind. I was homeschooled but do not homeschool my children. Several factors in that decision - financial considerations and the fact that my husband is not exactly for the idea. Also, I think living here, it's different in so many ways that, speaking for myself, so many of the reasons that I would choose to homeschool my kids were I living in the States just don't exist here. [...]48_28Nov200523:25:27-0800avigayil_simpson@YAHOO.COM 26677 352 13_Re: wrestling8_S Sloman18_ssloman@NETLAB.COM31_Tue, 29 Nov 2005 17:14:18 -0500478_us-ascii Yes, I was really referring to roughhousing. But not necessarily
w/toddlers. This is not an unusual kind of interaction in many
families, and everyone seems to enjoy it with no ill effects that I know
of.

-Shoshana

-----Original Message-----
From: Torah-Centered Homeschooling [mailto:TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG] On
Behalf Of Susan Lapin
Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2005 12:36 AM
To: TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG
Subject: [TORCH-D] wrestling [...]40_29Nov200517:14:18-0500ssloman@NETLAB.COM 27030 50 20_Re: living is Israel14_Bill Bernstein27_billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET31_Tue, 29 Nov 2005 11:13:35 -0600420_ISO-8859-1 <I believe there will come a day, maybe not in the too distant future,
when that option will no longer be available to diaspora Jews. Jews
in Europe went up in smoke because they were living an illusion of peace
and prosperity and couldn't get their brains around the possibility that
it could get as bad as it did.>> [...]49_29Nov200511:13:35-0600billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET 27081 305 48_Re: Question mainly for Israeli homeschoolers...10_Louise Fox20_louise@JOSHUAFOX.COM31_Tue, 29 Nov 2005 20:51:23 +0200584_ISO-8859-1 Re: legally removing a child from an Israeli school:

It seems to me that the appropriate thing would be to write a letter to
the school stating that you are withdrawing your child from school as it
is not meeting his needs - going into as much detail or not as you feel
necessary. I would guess that the school will not do anything "official"
after your letter, as they would probably like to continue receiving
money from the Education Ministry on behalf of your child. In which
case, you just homeschool, and end of story, at least for this [...]42_29Nov200520:51:23+0200louise@JOSHUAFOX.COM 27387 351 20_Re: living is Israel10_Louise Fox20_louise@JOSHUAFOX.COM31_Tue, 29 Nov 2005 20:51:41 +0200396_ISO-8859-1 For Mandy and anyone else considering aliya and/or homeschooling in Israel:

I feel that there is a lot more to add to what Avigayil wrote, as she is
not herself homeschooling her kids here. There are several of us on this
list who live in Israel and do homeschool, and I hope we can answer your
questions in more depth. You can contact me off-list, if you prefer. [...]42_29Nov200520:51:41+0200louise@JOSHUAFOX.COM 27739 69 27_Re: homeschooling in Israel13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Tue, 29 Nov 2005 18:02:50 -0800553_iso-8859-1 Interesting, four of the five reasons Avigayil cited for not homeschooling in Israel are virtually identical to those given for not homeschooling in the US! :)

A) Even if a person only sends their child to school for 5 hours a day, that is five hours a day away, and five hours under the influence of others, who in all likelihood don't provide your child with the example that you would. Also, the school day is short for kids as young as those under discussion, but kids do get older and the day gets longer. We left EY when my [...]44_29Nov200518:02:50-0800avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 27809 42 33_Re: Was update, now socialization14_Laya B Jackson17_tolife18@JUNO.COM31_Wed, 30 Nov 2005 05:05:41 +0200757_us-ascii thanks for this link!
Laya

On Tue, 29 Nov 2005 09:11:10 -0500 Mrs Moriah Chesler
writes:
> I posted about this a couple of years ago on this very same list
> about how
> rebellious our generation can become, and this is the article that I
> was
> referring to in my post:
>
> http://www.aish.com/literacy/concepts/The_Pre-Messianic_Era.asp
>
> Enjoy!!!
>
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
> The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by
> Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org,
> a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and
> an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/
>
> [...]39_30Nov200505:05:41+0200tolife18@JUNO.COM 27852 26 6_Israel15_Michelle Miller25_michelletamar@HOTMAIL.COM31_Tue, 29 Nov 2005 20:22:58 -0700300_- Well, I was not going to post in response to Avigail's comments, but I must
say that Avivah and Bill took the words right out of my mouth (and so much
more eloquently). Our family has put our aliyah retirement plans on a big
hold, since the pogrom that just took place in Gush Katif. [...]47_29Nov200520:22:58-0700michelletamar@HOTMAIL.COM 27879 387 27_Re: living in Israel (long)14_Laya B Jackson17_tolife18@JUNO.COM31_Wed, 30 Nov 2005 06:13:18 +0200554_us-ascii I have to jump in here. I still feel like a patriotic and grateful
American in many ways. And now I am an American Jew living in Israel.

It's true that Jews in the US have had a great longish run of safety
there. It's also true that they were not always welcome. We all know
that Roosevelt did not get involved with WWII to save Jewish lives, which
could have been done by bombing train tracks. I'm admittedly not a
historian, but as I've learned it, Jews did not have the privilege they
know in the US until AFTER [...]39_30Nov200506:13:18+0200tolife18@JUNO.COM 28267 88 48_Re: Question mainly for Israeli homeschoolers...18_Benjamin H Dickman19_bdickman@LUCENT.COM31_Tue, 29 Nov 2005 23:28:04 -0500707_us-ascii bs'd
I think I remember a thread on this a couple of years back saying
that you need to file a request to homeschool with the Ministry of
Education. The main thing to remember here is that you've got to
cover yourself in case your file gets attention. So I would advise
you to send an "intent to homeschool" letter to the Education Ministry
along with your curriculum. You should make the curriculum inclusive
enough to make any bureaucrat happy, and so include Math, Science,
Hebrew grammar/composition/literature/poetry, English grammar/
composition/literature/poetry, Jewish and Israeli History, Israeli Geography,
World History/Geography, Physical Education, [...]41_29Nov200523:28:04-0500bdickman@LUCENT.COM 28356 46 20_Re: living is Israel12_ruthie thurm21_ruthiethurm@YAHOO.COM31_Tue, 29 Nov 2005 22:36:53 -0800604_iso-8859-1 bill...
of course we galutniks have very good, nay excellent and cogent reasons for being here otherwise we would be there! politics is the same everywhere... our personal desire to perform this mitzvah (yishuiv haaretz) has stood the test of time since Avraham's initial sojourn to the promised land only to immediately leave for Egypt... where do we stand? only Hashem knows and when He wants us to go we'll know... in the meantime educating our children in a true environment that is kederech hatorah and infusing them with a love for Eretz Yisrael is the most important mitzvah of [...]43_29Nov200522:36:53-0800ruthiethurm@YAHOO.COM 28403 80 20_Re: blue background?0_17_RENALEVIN@AOL.COM29_Wed, 30 Nov 2005 10:08:35 EST494_US-ASCII In a message dated 11/30/05 1:52:28 AM Eastern Standard Time,
LISTSERV@SHAMASH.ORG writes:

> (Rena, could you
> please not write on a blue background. My aging eyes are finding that tough
> to read)

Susan, et al:

I am not writing on a blue background as I am not that technically savvy.
Rather, on occasion, the TORCH-D digest comes through to me on a blue background.
When I hit copy, paste and then reply, the blue background follows me..... [...]37_30Nov200510:08:35ESTRENALEVIN@AOL.COM 28484 156 11_Re: Aliyah?0_17_RENALEVIN@AOL.COM29_Wed, 30 Nov 2005 10:32:11 EST413_US-ASCII In a message dated 11/30/05 1:52:28 AM Eastern Standard Time,
LISTSERV@SHAMASH.ORG writes:

> But there are very good and cogent reasons for not doing so and I would
> expect a little more recognition of that from those here.
>
>
Avigayil, I am so with you on the good reasons to make Aliyah. But Bill, you
are so right too. I am going to add a few more things into the mix. [...]37_30Nov200510:32:11ESTRENALEVIN@AOL.COM 28641 118 20_Re: living is Israel16_Avigayil Simpson26_avigayil_simpson@YAHOO.COM31_Tue, 29 Nov 2005 21:35:17 -0800567_iso-8859-1 Bill,

1) I didn't say that. I said that Jewish life is 2-dimensional outside of the framework of "ha-aretz", THE land. We have no other.

2) I don't know you. That's for you to say.

3) "...including the right to homeschool our kids."
Homeschooling IS legal here and re: peace and prosperity, why do you want to wait until a France riot scenario take place in your neighborhood? It wouldn't take much for that to happen and I think we're going to be seeing more and more of that kind of thing in other parts of the world, the US [...]48_29Nov200521:35:17-0800avigayil_simpson@YAHOO.COM 28760 58 20_Re: living is Israel12_ruthie thurm21_ruthiethurm@YAHOO.COM31_Tue, 29 Nov 2005 21:58:10 -0800559_iso-8859-1 E) And last but certainly not least, the mitz vah and priviledge of living here, IMO, takes precedence over a lot. There is a different reality here. Life in general, and especially Jewish life, in the States is so 2-dimensional. We have here the zchut to be living Jewish history from the inside, not on the outside (galut) looking in. I once read a quote that has stuck in my head ever since because it is so eloquent: "In the States, life goes by you. Here in Israel, life goes through you." You can't understand that unless you live here. [...]43_29Nov200521:58:10-0800ruthiethurm@YAHOO.COM 28819 384 20_Re: blue background?8_S Sloman18_ssloman@NETLAB.COM31_Wed, 30 Nov 2005 15:16:34 -0500559_us-ascii Glad to know it's not deliberate, Rena, as I and others have mentioned
the problem to you on more than one occasion in the past!

If you are using Outlook, when you reply go to:

Format
Background
No Fill

Let me know if you have a problem with it.

-Shoshana

-----Original Message-----
From: Torah-Centered Homeschooling [mailto:TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG] On
Behalf Of RENALEVIN@AOL.COM
Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2005 10:09 AM
To: TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG
Subject: Re: [TORCH-D] blue background? [...]40_30Nov200515:16:34-0500ssloman@NETLAB.COM 29204 67 20_Re: blue background?18_Benjamin H Dickman19_bdickman@LUCENT.COM31_Wed, 30 Nov 2005 15:52:22 -0500367_us-ascii bs'd
Rena,

In whatever browser/mailer you use, find the tab at the
top that lets you modify OPTIONS, then find APPEARANCE,
then COLOR. Read through it carefully, as it may allow
you the choice of keeping whatever color comes in when
you reply, or let you use your own color scheme.
Best of luck. What browser/mailer do you use? [...]41_30Nov200515:52:22-0500bdickman@LUCENT.COM 29272 59 11_Re: Aliyah?18_Benjamin H Dickman19_bdickman@LUCENT.COM31_Wed, 30 Nov 2005 17:32:39 -0500611_us-ascii bs'd
Rena,

You would need to plan your finances with an accountant
experienced in American retirees living in Israel.

To stay more than 120 days per calendar year, you would
need Israeli residency and passport. If you then stay more
than 182 days per year, all your income is Israel-taxable.
So, under current laws, you would pay, say, 28% of your
American income to the U.S., and then another 40% of the original
income to Israel, which does *not* accept deductions or tax credits
based on the fact that you paid 28% to the U.S. This leaves
you with ~32% [...]41_30Nov200517:32:39-0500bdickman@LUCENT.COM 29332 51 20_Re: living is Israel18_Mrs Moriah Chesler17_merilyn@ABSOL.COM31_Wed, 30 Nov 2005 19:05:40 -0500371_- >On Tue, 29 Nov 2005 22:36:53 -0800, ruthie thurm
>wrote:
>
> where do we stand? only Hashem knows and when He wants us to go we'll
>know... in the meantime educating our children in a true environment that
is >kederech hatorah and infusing them with a love for Eretz Yisrael is the
most >important mitzvah of our time... [...]39_30Nov200519:05:40-0500merilyn@ABSOL.COM 29384 101 24_Re: Israeli HSing issues0_21_YiddisheMameh@AOL.COM29_Wed, 30 Nov 2005 21:17:11 EST522_US-ASCII I just got this on my HSLDA email list, thought it might be of interest!

Shalom, Chana

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
3. An Israeli Law Firm Fights for Homeschool Freedoms

The Kabiri-Nevo-Keidar law firm represents Israeli families interested
in schooling their children at home. Currently, the firm has dozens of
families who are members.

Read more about it at:
http://www.hslda.org/elink.asp?id=2697

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Is Judaism pro-abortion? NOPE! [...]41_30Nov200521:17:11ESTYiddisheMameh@AOL.COM 29486 186 29_Re: living in Israel (longer)16_Avigayil Simpson26_avigayil_simpson@YAHOO.COM31_Wed, 30 Nov 2005 12:04:22 -0800588_iso-8859-1 Laya,

Thank you! Beautifully written. What your son said gives me chills! Out of the mouths of babes, eh?

I had a girlfriend here, married with two boys who were both born here. About 2.5 years ago, they very suddenly picked up and left under very mysterious circumstances and were very closed mouthed about it. She told me, though, that she was explaining to her boys certain things about life in the States, trying to prepare them and lessen the culture shock. She was telling them that the kids in their school won't speak fluent Hebrew, if any, and that [...]48_30Nov200512:04:22-0800avigayil_simpson@YAHOO.COM 29673 60 47_Re: was: living in Israel, now spiritual growth13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Wed, 30 Nov 2005 19:17:47 -0800428_iso-8859-1 Moriah, your sentiments are beautiful, but they leave me unsure of how they are intended. Do you feel that most of our time onlist is wasteful, or even, chas v'shalom, sinful? Disagreements aren't necessarily machlokes; I would hope that as emotionally mature adults we can handle someone having a different opinion than ours, however strongly differing from ours, without degenerating into infantile arguments. [...]44_30Nov200519:17:47-0800avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM