1 SHAMASH.ORG /usr/www/wwwhc/listserv/archives/torch-d May 2005 2 26 12_Introduction18_cndwinter@juno.com18_cndwinter@JUNO.COM28_Mon, 2 May 2005 21:51:08 GMT387_- Hi, my name is Chanah and I am new to the list. We have three children two boys 13 and 10 and a girl who just turned 8. We have always homeschooled partly because my husband was in the military and partly because we did not want our kids to get a secular/Christian education in public schools. I love being the one who gets to see the "light bulb" go on over my children's heads. [...]37_2May200521:51:08GMTcndwinter@JUNO.COM 29 90 16_Re: Introduction13_Barbara Mazor19_barbmazor@YAHOO.COM30_Mon, 2 May 2005 19:48:24 -0700456_us-ascii Hello Chanah and welcome to the list. Thank you for
sharing your fascinating story with us.

I am Barbara and I am one of the list's 2
co-moderator. I have been homeschooling for 7 years,
my 2 boys who are now 14 and 8.

Although everyone was quite chatty before and during
the holiday, it seems everyone is quiet now. Perhaps
like me, recovering from Pesach mode and trying to get
back into the regular rhythm. [...]40_2May200519:48:24-0700barbmazor@YAHOO.COM 120 38 9_good food6_Zohari20_najova@EARTHLINK.NET30_Mon, 2 May 2005 22:27:38 -0600399_US-ASCII Now that we are all back to chametz, I will pose a question that I've been
thinking of for some time. I hope it gets through as I think food choices
and preparation are an integral part of a homeschool family.

I would like to ask folks to post one or two recipes that are
a) basically healthy
b) not a complete patchke to make
c) and offer something for all ages [...]41_2May200522:27:38-0600najova@EARTHLINK.NET 159 35 9_good food15_Michelle Miller25_michelletamar@HOTMAIL.COM30_Mon, 2 May 2005 21:57:38 -0700371_- Has anyone tried savingdinner.com? I found it on Flylady. Every week you
get a complete menu and shopping list for 6 days in your mailbox. There is
low carb W/ kosher option, regular w/ kosher option, vegetarian (and it's
not just meat substitutes, but good veggie food), and frugal option.

I'm subscribing to the vegetarian, although I'm not one. [...]46_2May200521:57:38-0700michelletamar@HOTMAIL.COM 195 173 9_Re: Intro0_17_RENALEVIN@AOL.COM28_Tue, 3 May 2005 12:16:06 EDT601_US-ASCII In a message dated 5/3/05 2:01:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
LISTSERV@SHAMASH.ORG writes:

> Hi, my name is Chanah and I am new to the list.

Hi Chanah, and welcome!

I will tell you that this is going to be an interesting journey for you. I
have a friend who is a homeschooler. She had always been a homeschooler and she
and her husband were what would be euphemistically termed Hebrew Christians
(or Jews for J). While she was Jewish from birth, he was not. When she decided
to reclaim her Jewish heritage, and become part of the community, being a
[...]36_3May200512:16:06EDTRENALEVIN@AOL.COM 369 52 16_Re: Introduction16_Brenda Goldstein21_lioness31@COMCAST.NET30_Wed, 4 May 2005 13:01:22 -0700433_us-ascii Chanah,

Welcome! I have nothing to suggest homeschooling-wise, as I haven't yet
homeschooled my 2-year-old, but I just wanted to wish you the best of
luck in your and your husband's Orthodox conversions (I guess the
children will subsequently convert themselves at some point). I
wholeheartedly applaud your dedication to Torah and Judaism.

Be well,
Brenda

cndwinter@juno.com wrote: [...]42_4May200513:01:22-0700lioness31@COMCAST.NET 422 28 13_Re: good food18_cndwinter@juno.com18_cndwinter@JUNO.COM28_Wed, 4 May 2005 21:34:20 GMT557_- My kids like pizza. If you can make challah you can certainly make pizza dough. It is inexpensive and I load it with lots of veggies. I started introducing whole wheat flour a cup at a time to improve the nutritional quality.

Another favorite in our house is the fancy steamed veggie plate. While we were growing in observance my husband would eat vegetables only in resturants when he traveled three days a week. We have what is on sale that week at the grocery store and brown rice. I serve with whipped butter and the kids think it's fancy [...]37_4May200521:34:20GMTcndwinter@JUNO.COM 451 40 16_Re: Introduction13_Barbara Mazor19_barbmazor@YAHOO.COM30_Wed, 4 May 2005 20:14:56 -0700572_us-ascii Hi again Chanah -

I reread what you wrote, and it really isn't clear to
me what your Rabbi's position is, and what it is he
wants. Can you clarify? Is saying enrollment of your
children in day school is a requirement for approving
your conversion?

>>The schooling piece is an issue for us. At this
point our rabbi has said that if I have support from
other Orthodox homeschoolers we can get the kids a
tutor for now, hoping that they will eventually catch
up to their age-mates and enroll in a Jewish Day
Schools. << [...]40_4May200520:14:56-0700barbmazor@YAHOO.COM 492 93 56_Need help re: Orthodox Jewish or secular 6th grade books0_21_YiddisheMameh@AOL.COM28_Thu, 5 May 2005 07:43:42 EDT353_US-ASCII I use a traditional Roman Catholic curriculum, which I am easily able to
modify for my needs.

However, their curriculum, beginning in 6th gade (next year for us), has a
heavily Catholic world history book which I simply cannot modify or use. I also
need a good Orthodox Jewish reader with lessons at the end of each story. [...]40_5May200507:43:42EDTYiddisheMameh@AOL.COM 586 217 9_Re: Purim14_Laya B Jackson17_tolife18@JUNO.COM30_Thu, 5 May 2005 17:59:36 +0200552_us-ascii I'm slow but I'm steady...I just found this post buried in my e-mail
files.

So I'm writing this now for two reasons the one is because I might forget
to tell some of this next year...

The other is I thought I'd do a little "fly lady" kind of thing to remind
others who are into yard sales/tag sales, that this is the time of year
to keep your eye out for goodies like old Halloween costumes or cheap
baskets for Purim. I also watch for props that I can use for Pesach. I
don't think we talked about making [...]38_5May200517:59:36+0200tolife18@JUNO.COM 804 311 15_Re: curriculum?0_17_RENALEVIN@AOL.COM28_Thu, 5 May 2005 11:40:37 EDT609_US-ASCII In a message dated 5/5/05 1:59:46 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
LISTSERV@SHAMASH.ORG writes:

> We are currently using Behrman House, ( which our rabbi doesn't think is
> best but doesn't have other suggestions

I also reread your post, esp the parts that Barbara highlighted. As I had
mentioned in my original welcome post, my concern is that the the Rabbi is going
to insist that the children go to yeshiva day schools and that the
homeschooling will have to end. This is not because this is better, just because this
is what everyone else does. As proof I bring the [...]36_5May200511:40:37EDTRENALEVIN@AOL.COM 1116 289 43_Re: Introduction (and a bit on Yom HaShoah)14_Laya B Jackson17_tolife18@JUNO.COM30_Thu, 5 May 2005 19:37:01 +0200575_us-ascii Hi Chanah,
My name is Laya. I live in Tzfat, Israel but my family has been spending
big chunks of time in the US for my husbands work as well as family
visits. (I should be packing now...)

Mostly I also wanted to welcome you to this group. It's a wonderful
group with rich resources. I'm ba'al tshuvah (became religious after not
growing up living an observant life) so I need easy, things. I've used a
LOT of audio tapes. I love the *Rabbi Juravel tapes on the weekly torah
portion. They are probably best for your younger kids but [...]38_5May200519:37:01+0200tolife18@JUNO.COM 1406 168 13_Re: Sonlight?11_Susan Lapin20_suelap@EARTHLINK.NET30_Thu, 5 May 2005 13:45:49 -0700338_iso-8859-1 Nicole,

I love the Sonlight catalogue. I keep it around when I'm ordering books from
the library. This past year, I used the whole program with an eighth grader.
We actually loved it, and I'm sorry I didn't know about it earlier. We put
aside the two books about missionaries and everything else was fine. [...]41_5May200513:45:49-0700suelap@EARTHLINK.NET 1575 29 8_Sonlight15_Michelle Miller25_michelletamar@HOTMAIL.COM30_Thu, 5 May 2005 14:52:02 -0700504_- Well, there is egg on my face now:) Yesterday, I visited a friend
hschooling her 9 children with Sonlight (not Jewish), and I was astonished
with this curriculum. It is exciting if you like to read (and we eat books
around here)! I am spending several days studying the manual and I think we
are going to use it for language arts, science and history. There isn't
much Christianity at all...very minimal. So thank you to whoever it was
that initially alerted me to this program. [...]46_5May200514:52:02-0700michelletamar@HOTMAIL.COM 1605 24 16_Re: Introduction18_cndwinter@juno.com18_cndwinter@JUNO.COM28_Thu, 5 May 2005 22:04:05 GMT581_- Day school attendance was required of all others in our conversion program. We spoke to the program rabbi about how our children had nightmares after visiting the school. He consulted with the Av of the Beis Din who said we could homeschool for now IF the children had five hours of tutoring each week AND I had support from other Otrhodox homschooling mothers. The rabbis hope that eventually our children will make the transition to yeshiva and day school. I am hoping we complete the conversion before this issue has to be revisited. We have a wonderful tutor who thinks [...]37_5May200522:04:05GMTcndwinter@JUNO.COM 1630 60 16_Re: Introduction8_S Sloman18_ssloman@NETLAB.COM30_Thu, 5 May 2005 22:04:39 -0500731_US-ASCII If I may ask, why did your children have nightmares after visiting the
school? (Sorry if you already explained and I missed it.)

Shoshana Sloman
Torch-d listowner

-----Original Message-----
From: Torah-Centered Homeschooling [mailto:TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG] On
Behalf Of cndwinter@juno.com
Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2005 5:04 PM
To: TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG
Subject: Re: [TORCH-D] Introduction

Day school attendance was required of all others in our conversion
program. We spoke to the program rabbi about how our children had
nightmares after visiting the school. He consulted with the Av of the
Beis Din who said we could homeschool for now IF the children had five
hours [...]39_5May200522:04:39-0500ssloman@NETLAB.COM 1691 66 12_Re: Sonlight16_Eric & Lori Swim17_elswim@KANSAS.NET30_Thu, 5 May 2005 21:44:58 -0500571_us-ascii Hi Everyone again,
Just couldn't keep this to myself any longer, but John Holzman (the
president of Sonlight), shared with me that his father was a Jew. Now,
I know that means John is not a Jew, by halacha, but I still think there
is some sort of spark within him (whether he knows it or not) of a
Jewish nature. So, I'm just hoping that someday he'll have an encounter
with it. :-)
Maybe if more Jewish people write to them and suggest a cooperation of
sorts, a Jewish branch of Sonlight (of sorts) that leaves off the
Christian [...]38_5May200521:44:58-0500elswim@KANSAS.NET 1758 101 60_Re: Need help re: Orthodox Jewish or secular 6th grade books17_Chana Silberstein16_cs32@CORNELL.EDU30_Thu, 5 May 2005 23:11:47 -0400362_us-ascii >I use a traditional Roman Catholic curriculum, which I am easily
>able to modify for my needs.
>
>However, their curriculum, beginning in 6th gade (next year for us),
>has a heavily Catholic world history book which I simply cannot
>modify or use. I also need a good Orthodox Jewish reader with
>lessons at the end of each story [...]37_5May200523:11:47-0400cs32@CORNELL.EDU 1860 86 13_Re: sonlight?0_17_RENALEVIN@AOL.COM28_Fri, 6 May 2005 12:51:46 EDT478_US-ASCII In a message dated 5/6/05 2:00:31 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
LISTSERV@SHAMASH.ORG writes:

> Obviously one would have to totally skip all
> the X-tian stuff but I love the idea of "learning through literature." Does
> anyone have experience with this curriculum? I'm thinking not really for
> next year (which would be kindergarten) but more in the elementary years.
>
> Also, I guess this might be a variation of the Well-Trained Mind idea [...]36_6May200512:51:46EDTRENALEVIN@AOL.COM 1947 166 15_Re: curriculum?0_17_RENALEVIN@AOL.COM28_Fri, 6 May 2005 13:06:56 EDT601_US-ASCII In a message dated 5/6/05 2:00:31 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
LISTSERV@SHAMASH.ORG writes:

> If I may ask, why did your children have nightmares after visiting the
> school? (Sorry if you already explained and I missed it.)
>
>

I can conjecture here....Like I said in my original post, seems to me to be
quite traumatic to require kids to leave hearth and home to be educated in an
insitutional setting. A lot of homeschoolers will have a child who ASKS to go
to school, because of curiosity and they want to try it, and the parents
support that. (or [...]36_6May200513:06:56EDTRENALEVIN@AOL.COM 2114 29 8_sonlight15_Michelle Miller25_michelletamar@HOTMAIL.COM30_Fri, 6 May 2005 11:08:50 -0700365_- Lori,

Yes, the owners of Sonlight just made a trip to Israel in February which
they write about on their website. They were horrified at the condition of
the Christian community in Bethlehem (what is left of it) and are trying to
help them. They do have "All of a Kind Family" on their booklist, which is
about an observant Jewish family. [...]46_6May200511:08:50-0700michelletamar@HOTMAIL.COM 2144 71 18_Chumash curriculum12_david horesh20_dhoresh@HOTBREAD.NET30_Fri, 6 May 2005 10:21:50 -0800530_ISO-8859-1 I was wondering if anyone knows of a complete curriculum for studying
Chumash in the 1st-3rd grades. My children are reading Hebrew (thanks to
A.R.E. Publishingıs workbooks if anyone if curious). We have a descent
Chumash with linear translation, but I am looking for a curriculum that
integrates the stories/concepts into broader areas of curriculum ­ i.e.
Music, art, math, geography. I can create it myself, but with four kids, and
the desire to have some shalom bayit, I donıt have the time. [...]41_6May200510:21:50-0800dhoresh@HOTBREAD.NET 2216 56 19_Does anyone want...15_Nicole Brackman18_drnb1969@YAHOO.COM30_Fri, 6 May 2005 14:17:27 -0700321_us-ascii A 2-volume hardback set of Webster's New International Dictionary (Third Edition, copyright 1971)? It's the unabridged edition.

I'm in the Five Towns (Long Island) and did also post this on the JHENYC list but if anyone didn't see it there and wants it (FREE) I'm glad to give it to the first taker. [...]39_6May200514:17:27-0700drnb1969@YAHOO.COM 2273 30 16_Re: Introduction18_cndwinter@juno.com18_cndwinter@JUNO.COM28_Sun, 8 May 2005 03:31:08 GMT545_- Thank you to all who have given so many suggestions and warm welcome! I have been very encourage to see that some of the suggestions for books I already own and have been using with my children.

To answer why the nightmares after visiting the day schools, I think it was the very institutional feel of the school. We have two day schools in our town. My daughter said the first one felt like a prison. The secretary was very warm and wonderful but the teachers were very into straight lines and quiet in the halls. My son said the [...]37_8May200503:31:08GMTcndwinter@JUNO.COM 2304 102 23_Israel independance day14_Laya B Jackson17_tolife18@JUNO.COM30_Sat, 7 May 2005 22:49:22 +0200436_us-ascii This from another list... hope you find it useful and enjoy, Laya

Subject: Israel Independence Day at the J Site + 105 Hotsites

Hi Everyone!

Israel Independence Day is celebrate d on the 5th day of the
Hebrew month of Iyar. This year (5765 / 2005) the 57th birthday
of the establishment of the state of Israel falls on Shabbat.
The celebrations take place 2 days before, on Thursday, May 12. [...]38_7May200522:49:22+0200tolife18@JUNO.COM 2407 37 12_Re: Sonlight10_Zara Haimo14_zara@HAIMO.NET30_Sat, 7 May 2005 22:31:25 -0700472_iso-8859-1 > Just couldn't keep this to myself any longer, but John Holzman (the
> president of Sonlight), shared with me that his father was a Jew.

He has been quite public about this in the past - I've known it since I
first started looking at their curriculum. I think his father converted to
some branch of Christianity and John was raised in that religion. His views
of Judaism are definitely colored by the "fulfilled Jew" view of the world. [...]35_7May200522:31:25-0700zara@HAIMO.NET 2445 81 13_Re: Sonlight?13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM30_Sat, 7 May 2005 22:58:35 -0700301_us-ascii I just spent quite a bit of time browsing the Sonlight website to get an idea of what their program is like, and am extremely interested in learning more. I ordered the catalog, and maybe that will clarify some questions, but still have some questions for those of you who have used it. [...]43_7May200522:58:35-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 2527 51 20_R' Burston cassettes13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM30_Sat, 7 May 2005 23:08:46 -0700572_us-ascii >Also the tapes from Rabbi Burstyn will do the same. (Avivah, can you post a link?)<

Someone has already posted a link to his direct email; however, the following website, which Chana S. initially posted, is probably more useful when deciding what to order. www.jewishaudio.org He has a listing of the first 180 cassettes he has done (many are available on CD for the same price), and which stories are on each. He told me he has done a bunch more cassettes (I don't remember how many, maybe 20 - 30), but those aren't listed at this site. His prices [...]43_7May200523:08:46-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 2579 182 13_Re: Sonlight?10_Zara Haimo14_zara@HAIMO.NET30_Sat, 7 May 2005 23:56:17 -0700332_iso-8859-1 > How structured is their program? (Please explain what you mean when saying it is or isn't too structured.) I was unsure as to the hours they mentioned a child spending daily on their program being for the all inclusive program, or just the core program, and does that include reading the child does independently? [...]35_7May200523:56:17-0700zara@HAIMO.NET 2762 55 23_Hebrew Phonics program?15_Nicole Brackman18_drnb1969@YAHOO.COM30_Sun, 8 May 2005 06:45:54 -0700509_us-ascii BS"D

Shavua tov all!

Can anyone tell me if there is a such a thing as a Hebrew Phonics program, similar to "Explode the Code" or something like that? My 4 1/2 year old really loves the "Code" series (self-initiated; I bought them a while ago to keep for next year but she found them and wants to do them, really enjoys it) and is asking to learn her "otiot in Ivrit". I've been trying to teach her but am having trouble doing it systematically and we are both a little frustrated. [...]39_8May200506:45:54-0700drnb1969@YAHOO.COM 2818 59 27_Re: Hebrew Phonics program?14_Malkie Swidler24_swidler@NETVISION.NET.IL30_Sun, 8 May 2005 20:00:41 +0200585_us-ascii It's not as fancy as explode the code, but try the reader from
www.shilopublishing.com called Reishit Kriyah. Follow the link for
Hebrew Language. I learned to read with this book, as did my son, and my
mom, too. It isn't fancy but it gets the job done.

Malkie

Nicole Brackman wrote:

> BS"D
>
> Shavua tov all!
>
> Can anyone tell me if there is a such a thing as a Hebrew Phonics
> program, similar to "Explode the Code" or something like that? My 4 1/2
> year old really loves the "Code" series (self-initiated; I bought [...]45_8May200520:00:41+0200swidler@NETVISION.NET.IL 2878 50 13_Re: Sonlight?12_Lisa Edwards17_lkraus126@AOL.COM30_Sun, 8 May 2005 15:30:47 -0400563_us-ascii As a relatively new homeschooler (my oldest is 5) I greatly appreciate this curriculum discussion! Excuse my ignorance, but what are the "All of a Kind" books?

Thank you
Lisa Edwards (in Connecticut)

>> From the start, I did substitute Jewish readers (such as the All of a Kind books) for their religious stuff, although we did read some of their missionary stories mostly for the interesting observations on other cultures. In addition, my kids take some classes with the local rabbis/rebbitzins and have a modern Hebrew tutor. >> [...]38_8May200515:30:47-0400lkraus126@AOL.COM 2929 467 13_Re: Sonlight?11_Susan Lapin20_suelap@EARTHLINK.NET30_Sun, 8 May 2005 19:25:59 -0700576_iso-8859-1 Avivah,

We were doing Sonlight 7 this year, which I think becomes 100 next year as
they are revamping their upper grades and high school level things and
giving everything new numbers. It's hard to give a time estimate for the
program because a lot depends on whether you choose to do many of the
readers as a read out loud or does your child read by him/herself, as well
as how quick a reader you and/or he is. Tamara reads quite a few of the
books, including her history assignments, before bedtime or on Shabbos. I
will say that [...]41_8May200519:25:59-0700suelap@EARTHLINK.NET 3397 68 13_Re: Sonlight?13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM30_Sun, 8 May 2005 20:32:04 -0700482_us-ascii Thank you for your replies on Sonlight, Susan and Zara - they were very helpful! I will research more and probably have more questions later on!

Zara, I noticed you said you were doing a wetlands project all year. I was just wondering if you have been involved in the Jason Project, since that's what it made me think of (my two oldest are signed up to participate for next year, assuming the group forms). And if so, how has the experience been for your kids? [...]43_8May200520:32:04-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 3466 88 11_5 of a Kind10_Zara Haimo14_zara@HAIMO.NET30_Sun, 8 May 2005 23:36:30 -0700582_iso-8859-1 > As a relatively new homeschooler (my oldest is 5) I greatly appreciate this curriculum discussion! Excuse my ignorance, but what are the "All of a Kind" books?

All of a Kind Family is a series of 5 wonderful books about a traditionally observant Jewish family in New York about the turn of the last century. Each chapter tells a complete story, so they make great read-alouds. The 5 of a kind are 5 sisters who are eventually joined by a little brother. Their antics are delightful and the stories are well written and charming. Here's an Amazon pointer to [...]35_8May200523:36:30-0700zara@HAIMO.NET 3555 167 13_Re: Sonlight?10_Zara Haimo14_zara@HAIMO.NET30_Mon, 9 May 2005 00:26:12 -0700334_iso-8859-1 > Zara, I noticed you said you were doing a wetlands project all year. I was just wondering if you have been involved in the Jason Project, since that's what it made me think of (my two oldest are signed up to participate for next year, assuming the group forms). And if so, how has the experience been for your kids? [...]35_9May200500:26:12-0700zara@HAIMO.NET 3723 233 43_more on spelling power and online resources14_Laya B Jackson17_tolife18@JUNO.COM30_Mon, 9 May 2005 13:00:15 +0200534_us-ascii Hi List,
I replied to Zara's post about resources (off list) and got the most
woderful, helpful reply with more information that I thought someone else
could benefit from, so here it is. The link to Ambleside is
http://www.amblesideonline.org/
What's great about it is that many of the texts are right online,
all of the resources there are free with written permission to use any of
it. We just read the young version of the Tempest this morning, and it
was a great introduction to Shakespeare. [...]38_9May200513:00:15+0200tolife18@JUNO.COM 3957 60 15_Re: 5 of a Kind12_Yael Resnick22_njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM30_Mon, 9 May 2005 10:08:30 -0400609_us-ascii Just be aware that, while the first book (All of a Kind Family)
depicts the family's early years, when they were quite traditional,
the rest of the books in the series become progressively more
"progressive" as they assimilate into American culture. There are
philosophies expressed that are definitely not frum perspectives.
There's also more romance in the later books, as the oldest girl
prepares to get married. So if you're considering these books, I'd
suggest reading them yourself first and making an informed decision
about whether they'd be right for your kids. [...]43_9May200510:08:30-0400njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM 4018 89 24_Re: All of a Kind Family13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM30_Mon, 9 May 2005 07:31:46 -0700468_us-ascii I read these books as a kid, and personally would consider them culturally Jewish reading material, rather than religious reading material. Most books I have seen on the secular market that show Jewish family life fall into this category (eg. Dear America:Tzipora Feldman, Sonia Levitan books). I think they can be valuable when discussing the history of Jews in America, to understand the dynamics at work that caused families to become less religious. [...]43_9May200507:31:46-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 4108 41 15_Re: 5 of a Kind10_Zara Haimo14_zara@HAIMO.NET30_Mon, 9 May 2005 08:54:24 -0700638_iso-8859-1 Re: [TORCH-D] 5 of a Kind> Just be aware that, while the first book (All of
a Kind Family) depicts the family's early years, when they were quite
traditional, the rest of the books in the series become progressively more
"progressive" as they assimilate into American culture. There are
philosophies expressed that are definitely not frum perspectives. There's
also more romance in the later books, as the oldest girl prepares to get
married. So if you're considering these books, I'd suggest reading them
yourself first and making an informed decision about whether they'd be right
for your kids. [...]35_9May200508:54:24-0700zara@HAIMO.NET 4150 309 47_Re: more on spelling power and online resources10_Zara Haimo14_zara@HAIMO.NET30_Mon, 9 May 2005 08:57:20 -0700458_iso-8859-1 The book Laya mentions, The Charlotte Mason Companion, is an excellent overview and introduction to her approach to learning.

Also, be aware that Ambleside, like Sonlight, is a Xian based source, so not all their materials will be appropriate.

----- Original Message -----
From: Laya B Jackson
To: TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG
Sent: Monday, May 09, 2005 4:00 AM
Subject: [TORCH-D] more on spelling power and online resources [...]35_9May200508:57:20-0700zara@HAIMO.NET 4460 41 20_Singapore Math Redux14_Bill Bernstein27_billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET30_Mon, 9 May 2005 10:57:49 -0500527_ISO-8859-1 We have had some discussion here about Singapore. I personally have had
really good experiences with the program and would recommend it. Until now.
The same source for the program also sells "Federal Test Papers", a
collection of tests based on the Singapore curriculum. I thought it was
a great idea so I bought that book as well.
Now, maybe I'm dumb. At some parts of the day that's not a maybe anymore.
But what is wrong with the following problem, on page 18 of the Primary
for 6 book: [...]48_9May200510:57:49-0500billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET 4502 85 24_Re: Singapore Math redux13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM30_Mon, 9 May 2005 13:57:58 -0700316_us-ascii Well, I'm not a mathmetician, but since you shouldn't have to be to teach sixth grade math, here's what I thought:

>>There are 100 people in a park. 40% of them are cycling. 3/4 of the
remaining people are fishing and the rest are jogging. How many people
are jogging if 10 are fishing?<< [...]43_9May200513:57:58-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 4588 65 24_Re: Singapore Math Redux10_Larry Beck35_Larry.Beck@GIS.LEICA-GEOSYSTEMS.COM30_Mon, 9 May 2005 17:10:10 -0400282_us-ascii Bill,

I believe you are 1/2 right [or is that 1/2 wrong? {:-) ]

In problem one: 40% of 100 = 40 so 60 people are not cycling. 3/4 of 60
= 45 are fishing. 1/4 of 60 = 15 are jogging. Therefore, the problem is
in error because 45 are fishing not 10. [...]56_9May200517:10:10-0400Larry.Beck@GIS.LEICA-GEOSYSTEMS.COM 4654 51 30_Re: Singapore math redux -oops13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM30_Mon, 9 May 2005 14:17:25 -0700421_us-ascii > A 15 % discount from the original cost of $90 would
> be $13.50, making the discounted price $76.50. I
> assumed that he made a ten percent profit based on
> this price ('after the discount'), which would be
> $7.65, and that leaves the cost price at $69. 85.

Oops - this should read $68.85 - I can't afford typos when doing math! (Yes, I do know how to do subtraction with borrowing!) [...]43_9May200514:17:25-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 4706 84 24_Re: Singapore Math redux14_Sigal Gottlieb23_sigalgottlieb@YAHOO.COM30_Mon, 9 May 2005 14:06:25 -0700508_us-ascii I've been hesitating to jump in, since I have been on
the list since before pesach but have not introduced
us yet, however:

for problem 2, I think that the cost of the sunglasses
would be 69.55, because the disounted price of 76.50
should represent the cost plus ten percent, rather
than the amount of which 10% is profit. The vendor
paid 69.55, so if his profit is 10% it is 6.95, and he
is charging 76.50. There is some rounding off going
on here, though . . . [...]44_9May200514:06:25-0700sigalgottlieb@YAHOO.COM 4791 112 24_Re: Singapore Math redux8_S Sloman18_ssloman@NETLAB.COM30_Mon, 9 May 2005 16:23:49 -0500500_us-ascii Welcome, Sigal.

I am with you for this problem, and I don't know what Bill's question is
about it.

But the first problem does seem to be either worded incorrectly or just
wrong.

Shoshana Sloman
Torch-d listowner

-----Original Message-----
From: Torah-Centered Homeschooling [mailto:TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG] On
Behalf Of Sigal Gottlieb
Sent: Monday, May 09, 2005 4:06 PM
To: TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG
Subject: Re: [TORCH-D] Singapore Math redux [...]39_9May200516:23:49-0500ssloman@NETLAB.COM 4904 71 24_Re: Singapore Math Redux18_Benjamin H Dickman19_bdickman@LUCENT.COM30_Mon, 9 May 2005 17:20:54 -0400586_us-ascii bs'd
Bill,

Yeah, the poor editing makes it rough.
------------------ try it this way: ---------------------
There are 100 people in a park. 40% of them are cycling.
3/4 of the remaining people are either fishing or jogging.
How many peope are jogging if 10 are fishing?

A pair of sunglasses normally has a $90 list price. The retailer
sold it at a 15% discount during a sale. If the retailer still made
a profit of 10% after giving the discount, what was the retailer's
cost of purchasing the sunglasses from the retailer's supplier? [...]40_9May200517:20:54-0400bdickman@LUCENT.COM 4976 50 24_Re: Singapore Math Redux14_Bill Bernstein27_billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET30_Mon, 9 May 2005 16:27:17 -0500509_ISO-8859-1 Larry Beck wrote:

>In problem two: 15% of 90 = $13.50 is the discount. The sales price of
>the glasses are 90-13.5 = $76.50. The profit is 10% of $76.50 = $7.65.
>Therefore, the cost price (of manufacture) of the glasses was 76.5 -
>7.65 = *$68.85.*
>
>
Avivah Werner wrote:
>>A pair of sunglasses costs $90. It was sold at a 15% discount during a
sale. If the owner still made a profit of 10% after the discount, what
was the cost price of the sunglasses?<< [...]48_9May200516:27:17-0500billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET 5027 151 24_Re: Singapore Math redux14_Sigal Gottlieb23_sigalgottlieb@YAHOO.COM30_Mon, 9 May 2005 14:28:12 -0700658_us-ascii There is an ambiguity here, which is not mathematical
one but language one: what does 10% profit mean?

--- S Sloman wrote:
> Welcome, Sigal.
>
> I am with you for this problem, and I don't know
> what Bill's question is
> about it.
>
> But the first problem does seem to be either worded
> incorrectly or just
> wrong.
>
> Shoshana Sloman
> Torch-d listowner
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Torah-Centered Homeschooling
> [mailto:TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG] On
> Behalf Of Sigal Gottlieb
> Sent: Monday, May 09, 2005 4:06 PM
> To: TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG
> [...]44_9May200514:28:12-0700sigalgottlieb@YAHOO.COM 5179 37 24_Re: Singapore Math redux12_Yael Resnick22_njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM30_Mon, 9 May 2005 19:06:49 -0400386_us-ascii OK, I'm a high school math teacher, and I've edited math textbooks,
but I'm confused about whether that's an advantage or a disadvantage
here...

For the first problem:

> >>There are 100 people in a park. 40% of them are cycling. 3/4 of the
>remaining people are fishing and the rest are jogging. How many people
>are jogging if 10 are fishing?<< [...]43_9May200519:06:49-0400njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM 5217 187 56_Re: Critical Thinking Press Resources: Response to Aviva17_Chana Silberstein16_cs32@CORNELL.EDU30_Mon, 9 May 2005 19:28:14 -0400403_us-ascii > Like Aviva, my kids have greatly enjoyed Punctuation Puzzlers and
>Run-On Riddlers, which teach rules of grammar through showing how
>sentences are silly, ambiguous, or misleading when incorrectly
>punctuated or constructed. The examples are fun, and the rules
>memorable. They also publish " Language Mechanic" which is written
>in the same vein and is a great resource. [...]37_9May200519:28:14-0400cs32@CORNELL.EDU 5405 131 24_Re: Singapore Math redux17_Chana Silberstein16_cs32@CORNELL.EDU30_Mon, 9 May 2005 19:34:22 -0400490_us-ascii The sight Singaporemath.com does have a bulletin board, where you can
note errors so that it can be corrected in subsequent editions (or,
if this an ambiguity due to Singaporean English, you can be set
straight as to what was intended).

I agree that errors like this are quite annoying to encounter. But I
have found the errors/ambiguities few and far between, and the
program is superior enough to others that I am willing to overlook
them.
Chana [...]37_9May200519:34:22-0400cs32@CORNELL.EDU 5537 83 64_Re: Spelling aids and Curriculum || Hello after a break || Rashi16_Russell J Hendel17_rjhendel@JUNO.COM30_Mon, 9 May 2005 21:33:36 -0400593_us-ascii RE: The discussion on spelling aids and curriculum: My mother was a
remedial
reading teacher for many years in the NY public system. Members of the
board of Ed would come down and copy her methods.

My mother was using what is not called WHOLISM way before it came into
vogue.
The basic idea of a NON_WHOLISTIC APPROACH is that you teach SEPARATE
SKILLS--eg
spelling, punctuation etc and then when the student is "ready" you go on
to more
advanced skills The advantage of this approach is that each syllabus unit
is extremely
well defined. [...]38_9May200521:33:36-0400rjhendel@JUNO.COM 5621 45 17_Re: Math Problems11_Lora Newman17_lora237@YAHOO.COM31_Tue, 10 May 2005 10:51:08 -0700572_us-ascii I haven't really ever posted here in the past, just
read, but since Bill didn't get any support on
thinking the second math problem was wrong, I figured
I'd chime in.

As a former math teacher, it doesn't make any sense to
make the first sentence of the problem "A pair of
sunglasses costs $90," when the problem asks for the
cost of the sunglasses as the answer. Now, we can
figure out that one cost is the wholesale cost (to the
seller) and one is the retail cost (to the buyer), but
that's expecting *way* too much of the [...]39_10May200510:51:08-0700lora237@YAHOO.COM 5667 36 19_Calvert curriculum?15_Bara Loewenthal26_bara@BTGENTERPRISESINC.COM31_Tue, 10 May 2005 19:02:53 -0600533_iso-8859-1 Hi,
I am new to the list, but I have been enjoying it very very much. I have a
question about the Calvert curriculum. I am sure it has been discussed in
the past, but I could use some input. We decided to start home schooling our
6 year old starting 1st grade next year. So far all I have read about
curriculums I find the Calvert one the most organized (which is something I
need at this point. Maybe when I am more comfortable with what I am doing I
will be able to make my own curriculum, but [...]48_10May200519:02:53-0600bara@BTGENTERPRISESINC.COM 5704 71 21_Re: Bad Math Problems16_Russell J Hendel17_rjhendel@JUNO.COM31_Tue, 10 May 2005 22:12:35 -0400514_us-ascii As Avivah has already correctly pointed out, quite simple, the problem is
WRONG (not poorly worded, but wrong)

You could fix it up easily (and I show how to below).

But before that, as a teacher of math, let me explain the way things
work:
Authors write textbook. Every textbook has errors. So people write
to the authors and the authors go thru revisions (Version 2, 3,4,,,)
usually
with acknowledgements to people who have helped out (That is discovered
errors). [...]39_10May200522:12:35-0400rjhendel@JUNO.COM 5776 42 21_Re: Bad Math Problems9_Dr. Swift26_drswift@THERIGHTREMEDY.COM31_Wed, 11 May 2005 09:42:34 -0400496_us-ascii It is interesting how different people understand the same problem. I read
this problem understood it, reaching an entirely different answer than
everyone else.

The original problem read
===============================================
There are 100 people in a park. 40% of them are cycling. 3/4 of the
remaining people are fishing and the rest are jogging. How many people
are jogging if 10 are fishing?
================================================ [...]48_11May200509:42:34-0400drswift@THERIGHTREMEDY.COM 5819 27 22_Re: for Lora and Sigal14_Laya B Jackson17_tolife18@JUNO.COM31_Wed, 11 May 2005 18:18:02 +0200360_us-ascii I wanted to welcome you to this list and thanks for posting. I've been
on and off with how actively I post, but it's wonderful for me to hear
the voices of everyone on the list. Thanks for chiming in and I hope to
hear more from you and anyone else on the list who tends to read more
than write. I know it takes a lot ot participate. [...]39_11May200518:18:02+0200tolife18@JUNO.COM 5847 99 49_Re: Bad Math Problems, and bad editing in general17_Chana Silberstein16_cs32@CORNELL.EDU31_Wed, 11 May 2005 12:01:57 -0400380_us-ascii Yes, Russell, books--even textbooks-- often contain errors.
And it can be educational to not them when found, and correct them.

The best error I ever discovered was a spelling error in the answer
key of a spelling test.
I also love finding grammatical errors in grammar books.
But math books with errors in the solution to problems are close :-). [...]38_11May200512:01:57-0400cs32@CORNELL.EDU 5947 512 28_teaching chesed and tzedakah14_Laya B Jackson17_tolife18@JUNO.COM31_Wed, 11 May 2005 16:53:39 +0200427_us-ascii Dear list, I was so impressed with this letter and thought it might be a
nice idea for some of our kids to be able to do a project like this. The
person who runs the "partners in kindness" program developed it in
response to loosing loved ones to terrorism. I'm so moved by the way
some people respond to the hardest moments of life and hope you find this
appropriate for this list.
KT,
Laya [...]39_11May200516:53:39+0200tolife18@JUNO.COM 6460 110 24_Re: All of a Kind Family0_21_YiddisheMameh@AOL.COM29_Thu, 12 May 2005 11:29:13 EDT585_US-ASCII In a message dated 5/9/2005 10:33:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM writes:

read these books as a kid, and personally would consider them culturally
Jewish reading material, rather than religious reading material. Most books I
have seen on the secular market that show Jewish family life fall into this
category (eg. Dear America:Tzipora Feldman, Sonia Levitan books). I think they
can be valuable when discussing the history of Jews in America, to
understand the dynamics at work that caused families to become less religious. [...]41_12May200511:29:13EDTYiddisheMameh@AOL.COM 6571 117 15_Re: 5 of a Kind0_21_YiddisheMameh@AOL.COM29_Thu, 12 May 2005 11:31:03 EDT689_US-ASCII In a message dated 5/9/2005 10:24:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM writes:

Just be aware that, while the first book (All of a Kind Family) depicts the
family's early years, when they were quite traditional, the rest of the books
in the series become progressively more "progressive" as they assimilate
into American culture. There are philosophies expressed that are definitely not
frum perspectives. There's also more romance in the later books, as the
oldest girl prepares to get married. So if you're considering these books, I'd
suggest reading them yourself first and making an informed decision about
whether they'd be [...]41_12May200511:31:03EDTYiddisheMameh@AOL.COM 6689 65 23_Re: Calvert curriculum?12_david horesh20_dhoresh@HOTBREAD.NET31_Thu, 12 May 2005 07:50:56 -0800490_US-ASCII We have been using Calvert since we began home schooling nearly 3 years ago.
It was recommended to us specifically because it was so organized. For a
flat (and what I think is reasonable) fee, you get a day by day, integrated
lesson plan, along with the necessary books and supplies. The only area
where you really have to go out seeking additional materials is in science -
as you only get the book. This is also not really an issue until 2nd grade
and up. [...]42_12May200507:50:56-0800dhoresh@HOTBREAD.NET 6755 18 21_Re: Bad Math Problems14_Moriah Chesler17_merilyn@ABSOL.COM31_Thu, 12 May 2005 02:41:54 -0400579_- I came to the same conclusion as both Russells did, before reading any of
their posts. I am glad that I'm not the only one interpreting the problem
this way. Perhaps, because I grew up near Singapore, I understood
their Singapore English more naturally? ;)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by
Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org,
a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and
an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...]39_12May200502:41:54-0400merilyn@ABSOL.COM 6774 56 32_Re: teaching chesed and tzedakah15_Alison Jacobson23_alisonziskind@YAHOO.COM31_Thu, 12 May 2005 18:38:43 -0700584_us-ascii Shmuel Greenbaum's story is really incredible. You
can read about it on his Internet site or by Googling
him. He's also currently looking for a shidduch, too,
so if there are any shadchanim on here who might know
a nice girl for him ....

Alison Jacobson

--- Laya B Jackson wrote:

> Dear list, I was so impressed with this letter and
> thought it might be a
> nice idea for some of our kids to be able to do a
> project like this. The
> person who runs the "partners in kindness" program
> developed it [...]45_12May200518:38:43-0700alisonziskind@YAHOO.COM 6831 83 32_Re: teaching chesed and tzedakah16_ZagorskyGoldberg28_zagorskygoldberg@VERIZON.NET31_Thu, 12 May 2005 23:46:38 -0400575_iso-8859-1 Wow, Laya--that is a GREAT article! I am very impressed with all that the student accomplished. I love when people demonstrate how much can be accomplished without thousands of hours of effort.

I have to wonder, however, whether the sponsoring agency would ever think to use some of the $ coming in to get a lactation consultant to help these women so that they could permanently stop spending so much on formula....(I am not trying to be a wise guy, just truly am wondering. Hashem has given almost all of us the ability to feed our kids for free and [...]50_12May200523:46:38-0400zagorskygoldberg@VERIZON.NET 6915 36 7_Calvert15_Michelle Miller25_michelletamar@HOTMAIL.COM31_Thu, 12 May 2005 22:05:07 -0700560_- We have used Calvert on and off for several years for my 10 year old, and
just their math for my first grader this year. I have mixed feelings about
Calvert. I like their cursive and writing programs (especially second
grade), and my son likes the math. I use Writing Strands in place of their
fourth grade writing. Since we like reading so much, we are going to use
Sonlight next year instead. My son likes the colorfulness of the Calvert
math, but I think he needs more rigor, so we'll use Saxon next year and will
try Miquon for [...]47_12May200522:05:07-0700michelletamar@HOTMAIL.COM 6952 100 23_Re: Calvert curriculum?15_Bara Loewenthal26_bara@BTGENTERPRISESINC.COM31_Fri, 13 May 2005 09:47:25 -0600552_us-ascii Thanks for the input, did you or are you using their Assistance program? I
am not sure if it is worth it for the 1st grade.
I have another question. My children are bilingual (Czech/English). I am not
sure if I should teach them the actual "school " stuff in English or in
Czech. They understand Czech perfectly but they speak back in English. Do
you think it is too confusing for them? I guess I would have to translate
the material. That would be a challenge. I am teaching them Hebrew too so I
don't know if it is [...]48_13May200509:47:25-0600bara@BTGENTERPRISESINC.COM 7053 60 11_Re: Calvert15_Bara Loewenthal26_bara@BTGENTERPRISESINC.COM31_Fri, 13 May 2005 09:53:27 -0600474_iso-8859-1 I was actually thinking of not getting the math from Calvert and getting
the Singapore math instead. Can you explain a bit about Miquon math and if
you know of any differences between Singapore and Saxon math?

Bara

-----Original Message-----
From: Torah-Centered Homeschooling [mailto:TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG]On Behalf
Of Michelle Miller
Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2005 11:05 PM
To: TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG
Subject: [TORCH-D] Calvert [...]48_13May200509:53:27-0600bara@BTGENTERPRISESINC.COM 7114 30 32_Re: teaching chesed and tzedakah14_Devora Farrell22_dfarrell@EXECUFIND.COM31_Fri, 13 May 2005 12:38:33 -0400392_iso-8859-1 > Shmuel Greenbaum's story is really incredible. You
> can read about it on his Internet site or by Googling
> him. He's also currently looking for a shidduch, too,
> so if there are any shadchanim on here who might know
> a nice girl for him ....
>
> Alison Jacobson

...And if anyone wants a personal reference, he lives a few doors down from
me. [...]44_13May200512:38:33-0400dfarrell@EXECUFIND.COM 7145 58 32_Re: teaching chesed and tzedakah15_Alison Jacobson23_alisonziskind@YAHOO.COM31_Fri, 13 May 2005 13:50:33 -0700399_us-ascii Ellen,

Thank you for bringing this up. I too wondered this
and would more than support an organization that sent
lactation educators to women instead of simply handing
them formula. If you're going to give out funds for
formula, then will you also reimburse the families
money for the bottles, nipples, and higher medical
costs that come with formula feeding? [...]45_13May200513:50:33-0700alisonziskind@YAHOO.COM 7204 35 12_sefira chart6_Zohari20_najova@EARTHLINK.NET31_Sat, 14 May 2005 23:31:30 -0600393_US-ASCII Perhaps some of you are like me in that you are not managing to count sefira
with you children consistently every day.

So I sat down tonight and made a sefira chart for each member of my family.
I printed each one on a different color of paper to make them easily
distinguishable. When I turn the computer off I'm going to hand them next
to the kitchen table. [...]42_14May200523:31:30-0600najova@EARTHLINK.NET 7240 95 11_Re: Calvert15_Michelle Miller25_michelletamar@HOTMAIL.COM31_Sun, 15 May 2005 09:20:42 -0700390_- Miquon math (from my understanding of it) is a very hands on, manipulative
based, approach to math (like Math U See without the videos). I'm sure
there are websites to explore it. I looked at my friend's books and they
are all color coded (a blue book, orange book, etc.). When the color series
is finished they are ready for Saxon or Singapore at about 4th grade level. [...]47_15May200509:20:42-0700michelletamar@HOTMAIL.COM 7336 132 23_Re: Calvert curriculum?15_Michelle Miller25_michelletamar@HOTMAIL.COM31_Sun, 15 May 2005 09:27:45 -0700379_- I used the Assistance program in first grade and it didn't work for us,
because we take of lots of time off for Yom Tovim and I would get letters
from the teacher pressuring us. It was like having someone looking over my
shoulder (which drove me batty). I would personally never do that again.
I chafe at someone monitoring my hschooling, but that is just me. [...]47_15May200509:27:45-0700michelletamar@HOTMAIL.COM 7469 146 33_Re: Miquon vs. Saxon vs Singapore17_Chana Silberstein16_cs32@CORNELL.EDU31_Sun, 15 May 2005 12:48:03 -0400674_iso-8859-1 My admittedly jaundiced view ( you can see what my preferences are here):

Miquon predates the days of web-sites... most pages can be done
without manipulatives, and the only manipulative really used
extensively is the Cuisenaire rods, though if you buy the teacher's
guide ( one for all six workbooks), there are suggestions for other
hands on activities that can be done.
Actually, what I liked about Miquon when I was using it was its
exploration of theory.. presenting all four operations (addition,
subtraction, multiplication, and division) from the very start, using
fraction notation early on, showing different ways of [...]38_15May200512:48:03-0400cs32@CORNELL.EDU 7616 38 11_Re: Calvert10_Zara Haimo14_zara@HAIMO.NET31_Sun, 15 May 2005 10:05:30 -0700506_iso-8859-1 Saxon and Singapore use radically different methods to teach and are not
interchangeable. Saxon emphasizes repetitive drills and kids who use it
apparently do well on US standardized tests. Singapore Math is probably the
most highly respected English language math curriculum in the world. It
teaches real mathematical thinking and gives kids a strong foundation for
higher math. Singapore math students have tested tops in international math
assessments year after year. [...]36_15May200510:05:30-0700zara@HAIMO.NET 7655 25 33_Re: Miquon vs. Saxon vs Singapore10_Zara Haimo14_zara@HAIMO.NET31_Sun, 15 May 2005 11:00:19 -0700529_iso-8859-1 > Singapore likewise does a great job of theory, but is more sequential
> and orderly than Miquon and goes through sixth grade.

The elementary school curriculum that most people think of when they say
Singapore Math goes through level 6B which is roughly equivalent to 7th
grade math in the US. After that Singapore has the NEM curriculum that
covers algebra, geometry, trig, etc. One of my kids is doing NEM 1 now,
another is finishing up 6B and will start it soon, my 3rd kid is doing 5B. [...]36_15May200511:00:19-0700zara@HAIMO.NET 7681 43 23_Re: Calvert curriculum?12_david horesh20_dhoresh@HOTBREAD.NET31_Sun, 15 May 2005 10:27:43 -0800568_US-ASCII We have never used the Assistance Service for Calvert so I can't comment on
its quality. What I have found is that, at least through the 3rd or 4th
grade, there really is no need for it. The volume of work it very manageable
- from a parent's perspective. Once they get past that grade, it becomes
more difficult because you may want an objective grader for things like book
reports and research papers. I find that I work very closely with my kids on
their writing projects because I am trying to lay a good foundation. As
they get [...]42_15May200510:27:43-0800dhoresh@HOTBREAD.NET 7725 44 57_Re: Moving Stories and Dealing with Learning Deficiencies16_Russell J Hendel17_rjhendel@JUNO.COM31_Sun, 15 May 2005 21:39:04 -0400674_us-ascii Hi
Just returned from an AMIT meeting in Silver Spring.
Yonathan Dror spoke there of his experiences in AMIT.
He had a learning disability but has graduated with honors
He is also speaking this Thursday in NY at the President's dinner.

After Yonathan spoke several other people spoke. They mentioned
some of AMITS initiatives and innovations. For example one of their
successful schools concentrates on non traditional learning activities
(Music,
woodcutting,hiking etc). These schools have been successful in giving
people vocational skills--the students are typically dropouts from
several
other high school programs. [...]39_15May200521:39:04-0400rjhendel@JUNO.COM 7770 29 16_Re: sefira chart16_Brenda Goldstein21_lioness31@COMCAST.NET31_Sun, 15 May 2005 21:01:56 -0700598_us-ascii Where's the attachment?
Brenda

Zohari wrote:

>I am attaching a pdf of what I made. If you like it, send me the first name
>of each child (or parent) you would like a chart for and I will send you
>back a pdf file with a personalized chart.
>
>
>

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by
Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org,
a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and
an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...]43_15May200521:01:56-0700lioness31@COMCAST.NET 7800 33 51_Re: Miquon vs. Saxon vs Singapore - Learning Styles14_Moriah Chesler17_merilyn@ABSOL.COM31_Mon, 16 May 2005 03:33:21 -0400537_- Based on my own experience, I have found that some people learn Math best
from word problems, while others learn best from picking up patterns and
manipulating symbols, in the math language. For the student who prefers the
former, it is essential to re-word a problem defined in symbols into plain
english (or whatever language one is comfortable with). E.g. what is 10 / 5
? Explain it as if there are 10 cookies for you and your brother, and each
of you gets an equal amount, how many cookies should each get? [...]39_16May200503:33:21-0400merilyn@ABSOL.COM 7834 33 16_Re: sefira chart6_Zohari20_najova@EARTHLINK.NET31_Mon, 16 May 2005 18:52:59 -0600382_US-ASCII on 5/15/05 10:01 PM, Brenda Goldstein at lioness31@COMCAST.NET wrote:

> Where's the attachment?
> Brenda
>

It seems that the list does not let attachments through. I can understand
that. Anyone who would like to see the chart should e-mail me privately. I
will send you a copy and if you like it I will personalize one for your
child/ren. [...]42_16May200518:52:59-0600najova@EARTHLINK.NET 7868 29 20_Young Scientist Club14_Malkie Swidler24_swidler@NETVISION.NET.IL31_Tue, 17 May 2005 14:10:09 +0200369_us-ascii Does anyone here have experience with these kits? They seem to have won
every award possible.

www.theyoungscientistsclub.com

How do these compare with say, Tops Science? Are the instructions clear?
How long does it take to go through a kit. I like how the kits seem to
build on each other... Is it as good as they say in real life? [...]46_17May200514:10:09+0200swidler@NETVISION.NET.IL 7898 23 19_Singapore in Hebrew14_Malkie Swidler24_swidler@NETVISION.NET.IL31_Tue, 17 May 2005 14:11:48 +0200628_us-ascii I learned yesterday that the Singapore Math series is being translated
into Hebrew. At least the first and second grade levels are available.
Unfortunately, this is all I currently know. My contact needs to get
back to me with the additional info. Thought I'd give y'all a heads up...

Malkie

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by
Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org,
a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and
an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...]46_17May200514:11:48+0200swidler@NETVISION.NET.IL 7922 52 10_New babies15_Alison Jacobson23_alisonziskind@YAHOO.COM31_Tue, 17 May 2005 12:59:15 -0700545_us-ascii Hi everyone -

In mid-July, I"H, we are due to have another baby.
Very exciting, but because it's only my second, I'm a
bit nervous about homeschooling with a newborn. My
first just completed the kindergarden level at home
(sans curriculum - we were very casual and
experiential with reading and math skills).

For those of you with experience, what things did you
find useful in terms of keeping homeschooling going
while attending to the needs of a newborn baby? Any
helpful tips or warnings? [...]45_17May200512:59:15-0700alisonziskind@YAHOO.COM 7975 82 10_New babies13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Tue, 17 May 2005 15:16:34 -0700554_us-ascii My personal opinion is not to worry so much about covering ground right after you have a baby. Take time to enjoy your newborn and integrate him/her into your family; in my experience, it takes about six months to get used to each addition. Since you only have one other child who will only be at the first grade level, you don't really have much to worry about academically. Read together, you to him and he to you, while you are nursing. Newborns often spend lots of time sleeping, and if you do want to do structured type bookwork, wait [...]44_17May200515:16:34-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 8058 116 14_Re: New babies13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Tue, 17 May 2005 15:38:40 -0700285_us-ascii I just happened upon a discussion board on the Sonlight website where someone asked a question similar to yours. Here is the link if you want to take a look - the responses seem to run the gamut of structure them from the time they are two, until better late than early. [...]44_17May200515:38:40-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 8175 93 14_Re: New babies13_Barbara Mazor19_barbmazor@YAHOO.COM31_Tue, 17 May 2005 19:23:26 -0700333_us-ascii Backpack, snugli, Baby Bjorn, Sling, or any other kind
of hands-free carrying/holding device and you're good
to go. IMHO, you won't be in trouble until your baby
is a toddler - 1 year + and getting into everything.

Get a bike with training wheels so big child can go
out for walks with you and baby. [...]41_17May200519:23:26-0700barbmazor@YAHOO.COM 8269 33 14_Re: New babies16_Russell J Hendel17_rjhendel@JUNO.COM31_Tue, 17 May 2005 20:32:55 -0400443_us-ascii Erma
Mazel Tov.
Why not weave the new baby into the curriculum
Some examples

MATH: If a Mommy had 3 children 2 years ago and now has 5,
how many children did she give birth to.

ENGLISH: Is it correct to say Daddy had a baby? Why not.
How would you correct it.

HISTORY: Emphasize the need to care for babies and how
during certain periods of history abuse of children led to great
evils. [...]39_17May200520:32:55-0400rjhendel@JUNO.COM 8303 52 28_38 WEbsites about Lag Baomer16_Russell J Hendel17_rjhendel@JUNO.COM31_Tue, 17 May 2005 20:27:34 -0400434_us-ascii Useful for the kids
http://www.jr.co.il/hotsites/j-hdayla.htm
Happy Holiday
Russell; http://www.Rashiyomi.com/

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by
Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org,
a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and
an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/39_17May200520:27:34-0400rjhendel@JUNO.COM 8356 190 14_Re: New babies14_Mandy Oeschger23_sailorswife@KNOLOGY.NET31_Tue, 17 May 2005 19:43:44 -0500549_iso-8859-1 Alison,

B"H" I'm due in July also! I have a four year old and a 20 month old. ( both boys ) I've been tossing the idea back and forth on whether to begin kindergarten before or after the baby is born. I've looked into Calvert curriculum although I heard there are better math programs but for kindergarten I'm not too concerned about that part. The reason I'm considering Calvert is they give daily lesson plans ( they can be flexible of course ) which is something I really need to get going. I wanted to share with you that [...]45_17May200519:43:44-0500sailorswife@KNOLOGY.NET 8547 108 14_Re: New babies12_Yael Resnick22_njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM31_Tue, 17 May 2005 21:26:40 -0400602_us-ascii Hi Alison,

A few random tips....

- Put a box together with fun (and educational) stuff for your older
child to work on while you're busy with the baby, and keep it
somewhere in easy reach. Coloring books, crayons or markers, scissors
that cut squiggly lines, workbooks, little one-person games or
puzzles, small toys.

- Set up a comfortable place to nurse. Get a Boppy pillow! I finally
discovered this and it is great! Keep a throw blanket there too (to
keep baby warm, and to block the light so he/she can fall asleep -- I
call it the birdcage [...]44_17May200521:26:40-0400njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM 8656 46 14_Re: New babies15_Wendy Bernstein28_wendybernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET31_Tue, 17 May 2005 23:05:14 -0400647_iso-8859-1 Alison,

I'll agree with Barbara--we use our backpack everywhere, and it's a
lifesaver! Also with Avivah---it takes about 6 months to settle in, and
we're almost there, b'li ayin hara! We've been VERY laid back since before
the baby was born (I'm sure you recall my late pregnancy rants) and are
starting to get our collective act together only recently. (Museum trip
today, hurrah!) Another HUGE help for us: books on tape (CD, really.) My
boys love them, and we go through several each week. Beverly Cleary. Lloyd
Alexander, the Redwall series, Old Yeller, Mary Poppins, Peter Pan...good
stuff, and [...]50_17May200523:05:14-0400wendybernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET 8703 98 56_Re: lactation support (was teaching chesed and tzedakah)14_Laya B Jackson17_tolife18@JUNO.COM31_Mon, 16 May 2005 13:55:08 +0200583_us-ascii I'm by no means an expert in any of this, but it seems like a great
project to follow up on. Just wondering will do nothing though. If it's
something you're passionate about it is worth following up with action.
I'm guessing that people who are doing chesed and tzedaka projects are
very receptive to people willing to do what it takes to make a
difference. One of my best friends has a life that is devoted to raising
money that helps Jews all over the world. Her organization takes its
share of criticism. Sometimes she does a fundraising event, [...]39_16May200513:55:08+0200tolife18@JUNO.COM 8802 70 8_enabling13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Wed, 18 May 2005 11:25:43 -0700483_us-ascii Today my husband spoke with someone about learning with our oldest son, to further the learning that he is already doing. This person was recommended as someone who regularly learns mishnayos with school age boys. My husband was disappointed to hear him reply that he wouldn't 'homeschool' our son since he doesn't agree with homeschooling. If he would learn with him, he continued, it would be enabling, which is why he won't do it, since every boy belongs in school. [...]44_18May200511:25:43-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 8873 199 15_Re: new babies?0_17_RENALEVIN@AOL.COM29_Wed, 18 May 2005 14:19:57 EDT591_US-ASCII In a message dated 5/18/05 1:58:29 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
LISTSERV@SHAMASH.ORG writes:

> School work can be easily made up in the months afterward, but the time
> when your babies are young can't be retrieved once it is gone

Avivah, you are so right. When my twins were kindergarten age, I was
expecting a new baby in November. I had big plans, get through the chagim, start the
homeschooling off on the right foot, etc. then have a baby. I had a corner
set up for projects/puzzles, etc near my nursing corner, lots of read alouds
set up.... [...]37_18May200514:19:57EDTRENALEVIN@AOL.COM 9073 124 56_Re: lactation support (was teaching chesed and tzedakah)10_Louise Fox20_louise@JOSHUAFOX.COM31_Wed, 18 May 2005 22:05:37 +0400527_us-ascii I have to chime in here, because I have come across Yad Eliezer's
formula drive before. They do it every year, and rather aggressively.
They apparently have *no* interest in helping women breastfeed or
providing *any* information or services connected with breastfeeding. In
fact, it is amazing how anti-breastfeeding this particular organization
seems to be. I am not putting down their wonderful chesed work in
general, but I have a major problem with their attitude towards
breastfeeding. [...]42_18May200522:05:37+0400louise@JOSHUAFOX.COM 9198 28 16_Singapore Math ?14_Malkie Swidler24_swidler@NETVISION.NET.IL31_Thu, 19 May 2005 00:33:31 +0200458_us-ascii A question for the Singapore Math users here:

I was browsing at www.rainbowresource.com (they have EVERYTHING!) I see
that besides having Singapore Math textbooks and workbooks, they have
solution manuals, teacher's guides, extra practice, intensive practice,
and word problem books. AND a CD-ROM.

What, if any, of all of this do I need? What is recommended, and what
will take up valuable shelf space gathering dust? [...]46_19May200500:33:31+0200swidler@NETVISION.NET.IL 9227 65 14_Re: New babies14_Malkie Swidler24_swidler@NETVISION.NET.IL31_Thu, 19 May 2005 00:45:52 +0200487_us-ascii Russell,

You've reached a new low.

Math: Not enough data. Are any of the kids adopted?

English: "Daddy had a baby" is English, as in "Daddy had a baby in his
arms a few minutes ago, but her mommy is holding her now". "Daddy
birthed a baby", however, is science fiction.

History: Discuss cultural expectations and how they influence modern
test questions. Why do so many homeschooling parents choose not to give
their children tests? [...]46_19May200500:45:52+0200swidler@NETVISION.NET.IL 9293 126 14_Re: New babies14_Malkie Swidler24_swidler@NETVISION.NET.IL31_Thu, 19 May 2005 00:28:29 +0200604_us-ascii Alison--

I also have a 5 year gap between by first and second children. So far
everyone has given you great advice (www.thebabywearer.com has all sorts
of info about slings and baby carriers-- I have 5 slings in 3 different
models and use them all regularly. Otherwise, there wouldn't lunch,
dinner, or clean clothing).
My son was very excited when the baby was born. Most activities stopped
cold for a few months (we had a nursing disorder, so postpartum was
REALLY difficult). But, he had a little sister and that more than made
up for it. It was an easier [...]46_19May200500:28:29+0200swidler@NETVISION.NET.IL 9420 100 12_Re: enabling14_Bill Bernstein27_billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET31_Wed, 18 May 2005 17:08:34 -0500593_ISO-8859-1 Avivah,
The great thing about America is that no matter how dumb someone's
opinion, no matter how senseless, ignorant, ill-informed, biased, stupid
and absurd it is, he still has a right to it. That's what makes America
great.
I could write a long satiric essay on the idea of homeschooling as a
drug and maybe I will someday. I certainly never heard of anyone being
"an enabler" in that sense.
But i might point out to this talmid chochom that if everyone felt like
he did we would be missing a lot of gedolim. The Chofetz Chaim, the
Chazon Ish, [...]49_18May200517:08:34-0500billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET 9521 155 15_Re: new babies?6_Zohari20_najova@EARTHLINK.NET31_Wed, 18 May 2005 18:26:35 -0600376_US-ASCII lower your expectations, set a few routines in place, and let the rest flow

I completely agree. I got onto this list just after my third child was
born. My oldest had just turned five and I was all ready to dive into
learning full speed with him. It just never happened. We were too busy
living our life. And we still are seventeen months later. [...]42_18May200518:26:35-0600najova@EARTHLINK.NET 9677 137 56_Re: lactation support (was teaching chesed and tzedakah)12_Yael Resnick22_njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM31_Wed, 18 May 2005 21:32:52 -0400726_us-ascii This topic (specifically the dynamics of the situation in Israel)
would make a fascinating and informative article for Natural Jewish
Parenting. It would have to be carefully researched and sensitively
written (to avoid loshon hara and related pitfalls). Any writers out
there interested in the assignment?

Yael

>I have to chime in here, because I have come across Yad Eliezer's
>formula drive before. They do it every year, and rather
>aggressively. They apparently have *no* interest in helping women
>breastfeed or providing *any* information or services connected with
>breastfeeding. In fact, it is amazing how anti-breastfeeding this
>particular organization seems [...]44_18May200521:32:52-0400njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM 9815 299 12_Re: enabling15_Bara Loewenthal26_bara@BTGENTERPRISESINC.COM31_Wed, 18 May 2005 20:12:41 -0600406_us-ascii I can relate to that. I just had very unpleasant experience. I asked
somebody in our community who is teaching Judaics at the modern orthodox
school for some resources for my home schooling and was told no, because
home schooling is against Halacha and that it would be inappropriate to
encourage it. I was kind of speechless, especially because I am friendly
with the family. [...]48_18May200520:12:41-0600bara@BTGENTERPRISESINC.COM 10115 33 20_Re: Singapore Math ?10_Zara Haimo14_zara@HAIMO.NET31_Wed, 18 May 2005 19:33:33 -0700415_iso-8859-1 > I was browsing at www.rainbowresource.com (they have EVERYTHING!) I see
> that besides having Singapore Math textbooks and workbooks, they have
> solution manuals, teacher's guides, extra practice, intensive practice,
> and word problem books. AND a CD-ROM.
> What, if any, of all of this do I need? What is recommended, and what
> will take up valuable shelf space gathering dust? [...]36_18May200519:33:33-0700zara@HAIMO.NET 10149 31 12_Re: enabling14_Bill Bernstein27_billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET31_Wed, 18 May 2005 21:45:53 -0500480_ISO-8859-1 Get out of here! Nobody could actually say such a thing. But look at
it this way: if he did, would you really want such an ignoramus teaching
your child?

Bill Bernstein
Proudly violating halakha every day.

Bara Loewenthal wrote:

> I asked somebody in our community who is teaching Judaics at the
> modern orthodox school for some resources for my home schooling and
> was told no, because home schooling is against Halacha
> [...]49_18May200521:45:53-0500billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET 10181 32 43_Re: enabling Home Schooling against Halacha17_rjhendel@juno.com17_rjhendel@JUNO.COM29_Thu, 19 May 2005 03:07:48 GMT438_- Over and above what Bill said I would point out
that SLANDER is against Jewish law. And SLANDER
applies equally to a) people and b) activities
The spies were punished for slandering a piece
of land (Israel) not for slandering people.

True you are allowed to express your opinion
but to go back to what BIll says: Does the
person really believe it is against halacha...
if not slander has been violated. [...]37_19May200503:07:48GMTrjhendel@JUNO.COM 10214 44 20_Re: Singapore Math ?14_Malkie Swidler24_swidler@NETVISION.NET.IL31_Thu, 19 May 2005 13:06:02 +0200560_us-ascii > What level(s) are you going to use? For levels 1-6 my kids used the texts
> and workbooks and that was more than enough practice for them.

We are now at the tail end of Miquon Math, and I would like to
transition to Singapore when we have finished with Miquon. Ds is 7 1/2
years old, and just began the yellow (fifth) book. I read at the
Sonlight Forum that 3B is a really good book to transition into
Singapore for Miquon users, because it presents the Singapore style
without much overlap. So I'll start at 3B unless [...]46_19May200513:06:02+0200swidler@NETVISION.NET.IL 10259 32 8_-testing11_Rivky Kahan22_rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM31_Thu, 19 May 2005 06:49:42 -0400532_- I have been having trouble with my computer bouncing back messages i try to
send to this list. so i'm just testing things again. Rivky

>
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------
>The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by
>Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org,
>a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and
>an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/
>
>To unsubscribe email: TORCH-D-unsubscribe-request@SHAMASH.ORG [...]44_19May200506:49:42-0400rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM 10292 70 15_Re: new babies?15_Merilyn Chesler17_merilyn@ABSOL.COM31_Thu, 19 May 2005 07:41:33 -0400451_- BS"D

>The bottom line here is that if you lower your
>expectations, set a few routines in place, and let the rest flow, things will
>run much better and you will not feel "guilty". everyone will thrive. push too
>much, expect too much, academically, housekeeping wise, etc. and things may
>not run smoothly as desired.
>
>Trust me on this one, been there done that, paid the tuition in full!
>
>Rena in Baltimore [...]39_19May200507:41:33-0400merilyn@ABSOL.COM 10363 72 24_Re: Young Scientist Club11_Susan Lapin20_suelap@EARTHLINK.NET31_Thu, 19 May 2005 10:14:22 -0700638_iso-8859-1 >>>Does anyone here have experience with these kits? They seem to have won
every award possible.

www.theyoungscientistsclub.com<<<<

Malkie,

I can't answer any of your questions, but I was curious and went on the web
site. I don't know whether it's a great program or not, but I have become
aware that in the years from when I started hschooling (fifteen years ago)
one of the big changes has been that hschoolers have become a recognized
consumer group. On one hand, this means there are lots more choices
available. On the other hand, many people have figured out that they can
[...]42_19May200510:14:22-0700suelap@EARTHLINK.NET 10436 162 12_Re: enabling10_Larry Beck35_Larry.Beck@GIS.LEICA-GEOSYSTEMS.COM31_Thu, 19 May 2005 09:19:26 -0400370_us-ascii Bara,

Could you ask this Rabbi how he learns out that it is prohibited by the
Halacha?
I've had a lot of people, including Rabbis, criticize my homeschooling
and tell me that they thought it was wrong. I even had one Rabbi tell me
that it would destroy my children but I have never had anyone tell me
that it was against the Halacha. [...]57_19May200509:19:26-0400Larry.Beck@GIS.LEICA-GEOSYSTEMS.COM 10599 22 20_Re: Singapore Math ?10_Zara Haimo14_zara@HAIMO.NET31_Thu, 19 May 2005 16:15:56 -0700322_iso-8859-1 > Are the CD's dull, or are your kids generally not into the computer?

My kids use the computer a lot, but I'm not sure why they haven't used those
programs more. I haven't looked at them in a while, but I remember thinking
they weren't as technically sophisticated as newer programs we have. [...]36_19May200516:15:56-0700zara@HAIMO.NET 10622 45 20_Re: Singapore Math ?17_Chana Silberstein16_cs32@CORNELL.EDU31_Thu, 19 May 2005 20:04:01 -0400483_us-ascii >A question for the Singapore Math users here:
>
>I was browsing at www.rainbowresource.com (they have EVERYTHING!) I
>see that besides having Singapore Math textbooks and workbooks, they
>have solution manuals, teacher's guides, extra practice, intensive
>practice, and word problem books. AND a CD-ROM.
>
>What, if any, of all of this do I need? What is recommended, and
>what will take up valuable shelf space gathering dust?
>
>Malkie [...]38_19May200520:04:01-0400cs32@CORNELL.EDU 10668 38 24_R. Burston Shavuos tapes6_Zohari20_najova@EARTHLINK.NET31_Thu, 19 May 2005 21:25:17 -0600403_US-ASCII I am forwarding a reply I received from Rabbi Burston regarding tapes for
the season. I also have his complete updated list. Let me know if anyone
would like to have the complete list. All the best-

Shoshana Z.

----------
From: cb burston
Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 20:36:55 -0400
To: Zohari
Subject: Re: Shavuos tapes [...]42_19May200521:25:17-0600najova@EARTHLINK.NET 10707 32 20_Re: Singapore Math ?16_ZagorskyGoldberg28_zagorskygoldberg@VERIZON.NET31_Fri, 20 May 2005 07:01:48 -0400426_iso-8859-1 My oldest is in 4B in Singapore (the second half of fourth grade) and I've
never used anything but the workbooks. I think they come packaged with the
teaching book, too, but I've never opened it b/c, up to this level at least,
the workbooks make sense on their own (and my kids mostly teach themselves.
I've only had to step in for concepts like borrowing and converting
fractions to decimals). [...]50_20May200507:01:48-0400zagorskygoldberg@VERIZON.NET 10740 84 25_Re: homeschooling/halacha0_17_RENALEVIN@AOL.COM29_Fri, 20 May 2005 08:56:10 EDT436_US-ASCII In a message dated 5/20/05 1:59:37 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
LISTSERV@SHAMASH.ORG writes:

> I can relate to that. I just had very unpleasant experience. I asked
> somebody in our community who is teaching Judaics at the modern orthodox
> school for some resources for my home schooling and was told no, because
> home schooling is against Halacha and that it would be inappropriate to
> encourage it [...]37_20May200508:56:10EDTRENALEVIN@AOL.COM 10825 174 26_Re: enabling homeschoolers0_17_RENALEVIN@AOL.COM29_Fri, 20 May 2005 11:10:23 EDT637_US-ASCII In a message dated 5/19/05 1:58:53 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
LISTSERV@SHAMASH.ORG writes:

> when a homeschooler seeks out help in Judaics, it is seen as a negative
> reflection on the parent and a clear indication that schools are better. When
> they seek out help in secular subjects, they are dedicated parents.
>

BINGO! Right on. and it is so funny, because of course were are obligated
according to halacha to provide our children with a torah education. we are only
compelled by secular authorities to provide a secular education....which just
goes to show you, the oilam is goilam, [...]37_20May200511:10:23EDTRENALEVIN@AOL.COM 11000 70 15_Re: new babies?0_17_RENALEVIN@AOL.COM29_Fri, 20 May 2005 11:16:34 EDT587_US-ASCII In a message dated 5/19/05 1:58:53 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
LISTSERV@SHAMASH.ORG writes:

> c) scribbles in the answer spaces of the bigger kid's math books

my now 3 y.o. used to sit on the kitchen table and play with the math
manipulatives that my then 6 y.o. twins were supposed to be using along with their
miquon math books. She would throw them all over the kitchen, 10 points for
those that wound up in the sink, 20 points for those that wound up under the
refrigator, 100 points for those that wound up thrown into the soup pot bubbling [...]37_20May200511:16:34EDTRENALEVIN@AOL.COM 11071 63 25_Re: homeschooling/halacha18_Benjamin H Dickman19_bdickman@LUCENT.COM31_Fri, 20 May 2005 13:18:14 -0400644_us-ascii bs'd
What's the issue here? You are asking the alleged educator to
contribute to the demise of his livelihood. So he holds it's
g'neiva (stealing from him, who stands at the right hand of HaShem).
So it's against halakha. :-)

kol tuv,
Benzion Dickman

On 5/20/2005 8:56 AM, RENALEVIN@aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 5/20/05 1:59:37 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> LISTSERV@SHAMASH.ORG writes:
>
>
>> I can relate to that. I just had very unpleasant experience. I asked
>> somebody in our community who is teaching Judaics at the modern orthodox
>> school for some resources for my [...]41_20May200513:18:14-0400bdickman@LUCENT.COM 11135 52 24_Re: Young Scientist Club12_david horesh20_dhoresh@HOTBREAD.NET31_Fri, 20 May 2005 10:06:41 -0800473_US-ASCII I visited the website, and I was not pleased with the lack of information
they provided about kits contents and objectives.

I have visited and spoken with the people at http://www.delta-education.com
The information is very thorough and they lay out the objectives very
clearly. The only draw back is that the kits are fairly large (3-4 kids). It
might work really well for you if you have another family or 2 that you can
pair up with. [...]42_20May200510:06:41-0800dhoresh@HOTBREAD.NET 11188 90 12_Kindergarten14_Mandy Oeschger23_sailorswife@KNOLOGY.NET31_Fri, 20 May 2005 13:23:32 -0500358_iso-8859-1 Do any of you have suggestions on the following: I'm deciding between ABecka and Calvert curriculum for kindergarten. There is about a 200.00 price difference between the two of them with Calvert being 400.00 for the year. I like ABeka's price better however Calvert has a wide range of subject to learn such as Geography and history. Todah~ [...]45_20May200513:23:32-0500sailorswife@KNOLOGY.NET 11279 301 12_Re: enabling15_Bara Loewenthal26_bara@BTGENTERPRISESINC.COM31_Fri, 20 May 2005 15:16:17 -0600528_us-ascii Larry,

Firstly, this person is not a Rabbi, but he does teach Judaics at a modern
orthodox school. I did not want to speak to him again so I asked his wife,
because I know they discussed it together. I was told that what he meant by
it is that in order to continue the proper knowledge of Torah it should be
taught by a Rabbi who learned from a Rabbi and so on all the way to Moshe
Rabbeinu. So basically if we as parents have not learned with a Rabbi to the
point of becoming one we have [...]48_20May200515:16:17-0600bara@BTGENTERPRISESINC.COM 11581 40 12_Re: enabling14_Bill Bernstein27_billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET31_Fri, 20 May 2005 17:31:37 -0500524_ISO-8859-1 Firstly, *this person is not a Rabbi*, but he does teach Judaics at a
modern orthodox school. I did not want to speak to him again so I asked
his wife, because I know they discussed it together. I was told that
what he meant by it is that in order to continue the proper knowledge of
Torah it should be taught by a Rabbi who learned from a Rabbi and so on
all the way to Moshe Rabbeinu. So basically if we as parents h*ave not
learned with a Rabbi _to the point of becoming one_ we have no [...]49_20May200517:31:37-0500billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET 11622 58 16_Re: Kindergarten18_Benjamin H Dickman19_bdickman@LUCENT.COM31_Fri, 20 May 2005 18:27:09 -0400414_us-ascii bs'd
Mandy,

Couldn't Toviah do better choosing his own history and Geography
books at the local library? You could get a lot of homeschooling
mileage from the $200 you could save. Buy a serious bow compass
and start drawing circles, then get a book about making geometry
constructions using just bow compass and strightedge. I'd also
get a good protractor to measure angles. [...]41_20May200518:27:09-0400bdickman@LUCENT.COM 11681 169 16_Re: Kindergarten12_david horesh20_dhoresh@HOTBREAD.NET31_Fri, 20 May 2005 14:27:26 -0800552_ISO-8859-1 We used the Calvert curriculum for Kindergarten and we liked it very much.
The kids are introduced to science concepts and geography from the start of
their learning. I have never used Abeka, but I can tell you that all my
kids, including my son who was ESL (born in India, adopted at 4.5), loved it
and were reading by the end of the year. For that and the strength of the
math curriculum alone was it worth the money. [Note about the money ­which
does play a role in decision making ­ the State of Alaska gives us a [...]42_20May200514:27:26-0800dhoresh@HOTBREAD.NET 11851 246 12_Re: enabling10_Larry Beck35_Larry.Beck@GIS.LEICA-GEOSYSTEMS.COM31_Fri, 20 May 2005 18:00:24 -0400474_us-ascii Bara,

It sounds like you and your husband will do fine teaching your kids
because you have the right attitude. I believe that attitude counts for
a lot more than book knowledge. I am not a Rabbi and I don't have the
Torah skills to teach my children what they need to know. Even so,
according to this "Judaics" teacher we both will do great, and what is
correct, because we are willing to hire the people that have the book
knowledge. [...]57_20May200518:00:24-0400Larry.Beck@GIS.LEICA-GEOSYSTEMS.COM 12098 134 43_Re: Kindergarten: reply to Mandy's question17_Chana Silberstein16_cs32@CORNELL.EDU31_Sat, 21 May 2005 23:22:56 -0400464_us-ascii Here's the less than $100 formal curriculum I use with my 4/5 year-old:
1) Kindergarten math text from singapore.com ( or use the Miquon series)
1) Explode the code series from eps.com
3) Hebrew reading primer/siddur reading
4) Muchanut l'ivrit (Yannai)
5) Rabbi Burston tapes
We also tell her the parsha each week.
We do as much or as little a day as she is willing to do.
In between, there is housework/cooking, walks, etc. [...]38_21May200523:22:56-0400cs32@CORNELL.EDU 12233 92 12_Re: enabling18_Benjamin H Dickman19_bdickman@LUCENT.COM31_Sun, 22 May 2005 00:43:59 -0400586_us-ascii bs'd
Bara,

Your children are fortunate to have as a mother someone so appreciative
of Torah and mitzvoth. You have much to give, since your love of HaShem
came about despite difficult circumstances.

Look at Genesis 19:18, where I quote from Rav Kaplan's Living Torah
translation: "I have given him [Avraham] special attention so that he will
command his children and his household after him, and they will keep HaShem's
way, doing charity and justice." HaShem considers parents the avenue
for molding the children's motivations in life. [...]41_22May200500:43:59-0400bdickman@LUCENT.COM 12326 102 26_early math/science program15_Wendy Bernstein28_wendybernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET31_Sun, 22 May 2005 06:58:15 -0400418_iso-8859-1 LOL, Rena...I know, you weren't joking. My 2 y.o. went one step further Erev Shabbos. He put the pencils the kids had been using into the flame under the soup pot while I was in the shower. BH, ds5 alerted his Abba...after he watched 'em burn for awhile. (Early L'ag B'Omer bonfire? Precocious young scientists? Pyromaniacs in the making? You be the judge. All I know is it wasn't in my lesson plans!) [...]50_22May200506:58:15-0400wendybernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET 12429 122 29_Re: reply to Mandy's question13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Mon, 23 May 2005 06:47:28 -0700572_us-ascii Chana,

What signs of readiness did you see in your child when you started doing these things with her/him? I have a 4.5 yod who I am considering starting on Singapore math and possibly Explode the Code, because she wants it, not because I am worried about providing her with structured learning. Part of it is seeing her older siblings doing math and wanting to be like them, I think. Explode the Code is something I think she will like, because she enjoys recogizing letters in books and sounding them out. I also started my son on Singapore when he [...]44_23May200506:47:28-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 12552 58 16_yeshiva concerns13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Mon, 23 May 2005 11:23:59 -0700395_us-ascii I have been thinking more about this 'yeshiva is the best and only place for your child' train of thought. This morning I was out and about and got to talking with someone who I have known for a while. I started asking her about her sons' yeshiva high school experiences and post high school yeshiva experiences, and found out that one son had a drug issue, which was BH resolved. [...]44_23May200511:23:59-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 12611 107 20_Re: yeshiva concerns14_Bill Bernstein27_billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET31_Mon, 23 May 2005 13:36:15 -0500574_ISO-8859-1 Avivah,
I think if there is one thing everyone on this list agrees on it is that
yeshivas are NOT the best and only place for our children. Some people
may feel that way, but they arent likely to HS.
As to the substance, one issue that came up on another list
(mail-jewish) was the idea of shabbos as a day of rest. People in
larger communities described shabbosim as taken up with rushing through
dinner, going to the next shalom zachor or night seder. Then after shul
there was kiddush, maybe even in another shul where there was a [...]49_23May200513:36:15-0500billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET 12719 88 20_Re: yeshiva concerns13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Mon, 23 May 2005 13:42:10 -0700325_us-ascii I agree with you, that a hectic lifestyle is a big problem in frum communities. That is probably what I love most about homeschooling (well, there are a lot of things I love but that is definitely high on my list), that I can choose how we spend out time and don't have to race around like the Energizer bunny. [...]44_23May200513:42:10-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 12808 318 47_Book-learning readiness and scheduling learning17_Chana Silberstein16_cs32@CORNELL.EDU31_Mon, 23 May 2005 15:03:48 -0400492_us-ascii Right now, I have a five year old, a 12 year old, and a 13 year old at home.
I do not have a formal learning time set aside for my five year old.
I daven with her in the morning, and then she often likes to sit on
on some of the older kids learning sessions, and it is amazing how
much she processes. I got her a math book because she wanted to do
math when the older kids did math, etc.
It is most often she who brings her stack of books to me to do with
[...]38_23May200515:03:48-0400cs32@CORNELL.EDU 13127 61 37_Re: was yeshiva concerns, now Shabbos13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Mon, 23 May 2005 14:04:45 -0700566_us-ascii I wanted to comment on one part of this: "The complaint was that there were so many obligations the family never had time to spend together."

There are plenty of legitimate obligations that people have, but I think that far too often, people just react to what is happening around them and don't really think about what they truly need to do. You aren't obligated to take your kids to Pirchei/ Bnos, go to a shiur on Shabbos afternoon, attend shalosh seudos at shul, or go to the simcha of every person who invites you. All of these are CHOICES [...]44_23May200514:04:45-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 13189 118 20_Re: yeshiva concerns12_Harry Broome21_harrybroome@YAHOO.COM31_Mon, 23 May 2005 14:17:21 -0700501_us-ascii Hearing about problems in the yeshivas gives us a
boost of confidence about our decision to homeschool,
as does seeing the benefits of homeschooling directly.
But as a BT, who never went to yeshiva myself, I
would like understand better what the real benefits of
a yeshiva are. Is homeschooling the ultimate, or just
the best option right now? In other words, could you
design or imagine a yeshiva that you would eagerly
send your son to, rather than homeschool? [...]43_23May200514:17:21-0700harrybroome@YAHOO.COM 13308 39 19_teacher gift ideas?12_Yael Resnick22_njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM31_Mon, 23 May 2005 22:23:51 -0400438_us-ascii We've been "part-time" homeschooling our children, in a rather
eclectic manner -- my oldest is part of a little co-op and does most
of her learning in other people's homes, for example. I would like to
give end-of-the-year gifts to thank my kids' various teachers (school
teachers, my daughter's friends' parents, and a few other private
teachers we cooperatively hired to teach specific subjects this year). [...]44_23May200522:23:51-0400njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM 13348 74 20_Re: yeshiva concerns18_Benjamin H Dickman19_bdickman@LUCENT.COM31_Mon, 23 May 2005 22:57:53 -0400562_us-ascii bs'd
I don't have boys, but I used to be one :-)
If I could go back in time to counsel myself, I would advise
myself to do more sports weekdays and Sunday. I spent too
much time over books, without the physical activities I wish
I had. I would advise myself to use my extra Shabbos Neshama
for what it was uniquely suited for: learning Torah.
I wouldn't have to be curled up over a sefer the whole time.
I'd find a friend to walk with, continuing our learning while getting
exercise and fresh air. Especially if there is [...]41_23May200522:57:53-0400bdickman@LUCENT.COM 13423 65 11_Re: Shabbos13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Mon, 23 May 2005 20:25:19 -0700588_us-ascii Really? When you were a twelve year old, you would have wanted to spend more time walking with friends and talking in learning? I think my son has a very different make up - running and talking in baseball sound more like where he is at right now.

This particular kid is very athletic and plays ball just about daily with friends. He enjoys reading, but basically just non fiction - anything about baseball - histories, biographies, the daily paper - none of which we consider appropriate Shabbos reading. In thinking about this tonight, I told my husband that maybe [...]44_23May200520:25:19-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 13489 64 23_Re: teacher gift ideas?18_Benjamin H Dickman19_bdickman@LUCENT.COM31_Mon, 23 May 2005 23:31:26 -0400443_us-ascii bs'd
Yael,

My wife taught for many years. The things she treasured most
were the thank-you notes from the students themselves.
Chanukkah gelt was welcomed. Chachkes just cluttered our lives.
A good wine, on the other hand, leaves only pleasant memories
after the recycling truck comes.

I will say though, that a really excellent cookbook will always
be fondly remembered. Dedicate the cover page. [...]41_23May200523:31:26-0400bdickman@LUCENT.COM 13554 41 30_Re: enabling---answers to Bill16_Russell J Hendel17_rjhendel@JUNO.COM31_Mon, 23 May 2005 23:34:50 -0400431_us-ascii Bill brings an interesting point. It is true that teaching requires
knowledge. But that is ONLY
one component of Judaism. A no less greater authority that Rabbi Joseph
Baer Soloveitchick
would fondly say many times during his weekly Saturday Night lectures
that ' I learned
Talmud from my Grandfather but I learned the feeling of Judaism from my
mother and my
Lubavitch grade school teacher.' [...]39_23May200523:34:50-0400rjhendel@JUNO.COM 13596 95 15_Re: curriculum?0_17_RENALEVIN@AOL.COM29_Tue, 24 May 2005 08:25:55 EDT587_US-ASCII In a message dated 5/24/05 1:58:23 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
LISTSERV@SHAMASH.ORG writes:

> You may want to consider if something like this fits your needs
> before shelling out a lot on formal curriculum on this age.
>

and since mandy is concerned about finding stimulating activities for her
son, I would second the motion that library books can go far here. I first found
"how to teach your kid to read in 100 easy lessons" at the library and this
is how I taught my little ones to read (it was worth buying the book). we used
the Bob [...]37_24May200508:25:55EDTRENALEVIN@AOL.COM 13692 152 21_Re: yeshiva concerns?0_17_RENALEVIN@AOL.COM29_Tue, 24 May 2005 08:46:28 EDT439_US-ASCII as a mom of graduating high school homeschool boy who is now being
"mainstreamed" back into the system, this has been a big concern for us.

When we looked at yeshivas, we asked about:
dorm counselors/supervision in the dorms.
drugs
drinking
smoking
policy regarding cars (we were concerned about reckless driving)
policy regarding computers. (we were concerned about surfing the net for
porn). [...]37_24May200508:46:28EDTRENALEVIN@AOL.COM 13845 39 21_Re: yeshiva concerns?17_Rachel Turniansky28_rachelturniansky@HOTMAIL.COM31_Tue, 24 May 2005 13:12:22 -0400625_- >When we looked at yeshivas, we asked about:
>dorm counselors/supervision in the dorms.
>drugs
>drinking
>smoking
>policy regarding cars (we were concerned about reckless driving)
>policy regarding computers. (we were concerned about surfing the net for
>porn).
>
>My hubby even went so far as to ask how many rebbes smoke? when a rebbe
>has
>a simcha, how much liquor is on the table, for example, at a sholom zachor?
>(the answer was no rebbeim smoke, not good role modeling, and there was no
>liquor at a recent shalom zachor, who needs it when you can sing and eat
>chips [...]50_24May200513:12:22-0400rachelturniansky@HOTMAIL.COM 13885 65 23_Re: teacher gift ideas?10_Louise Fox20_louise@JOSHUAFOX.COM31_Tue, 24 May 2005 21:36:03 +0400482_us-ascii Yael,
This may or may not be the kind of thing you're looking for, but I know
this family (they're homeschoolers, not Jewish) and they're going
through a tough time financially right now. An extra order would make a
difference to them.
Take a look at www.soapsandpotions.com - they have some wonderful stuff.

And if anyone else is looking for gifts to buy, please consider giving
this family your business at this time.
Louise
in Israel [...]42_24May200521:36:03+0400louise@JOSHUAFOX.COM 13951 118 24_Re: Young Scientist Club14_Malkie Swidler24_swidler@NETVISION.NET.IL31_Wed, 25 May 2005 00:36:02 +0200604_us-ascii Susan, you're right on. All of the concerns you mentioned are why I
checked into the program here (as well as at homeschoolreviews.com,
where at least the first chunk of the series got great reviews). It's
not only available by subscription anymore, many educational catalogs
(like exploratorium) carry it now 3 kits in a box for a bit less than $25.
Trust me, science is not where my insecurities lie (we're science wonks
around here). But I like the idea of "science in a box", where instead
of having to run around, finding supplies at this and that catalog and
[...]46_25May200500:36:02+0200swidler@NETVISION.NET.IL 14070 38 23_Re: teacher gift ideas?12_Yael Resnick22_njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM31_Wed, 31 Dec 1969 21:52:25 -0500636_us-ascii Thanks, Louise, it's a nice idea. I will take a look.

And thank you also to those who have sent suggestions off-list. If
anyone else has ideas, keep 'em coming!! I'm always looking for
interesting gifts for other occasions, too, as are most people, I
would guess.

Yael

>Yael,
>This may or may not be the kind of thing you're looking for, but I
>know this family (they're homeschoolers, not Jewish) and they're
>going through a tough time financially right now. An extra order
>would make a difference to them.
>Take a look at www.soapsandpotions.com - they have some wonderful [...]44_31Dec196921:52:25-0500njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM 14109 29 16_yeshiva concerns15_Michelle Miller25_michelletamar@HOTMAIL.COM31_Tue, 24 May 2005 22:25:52 -0700351_- Rena,

Oy vey, your post really freaked me out, although I know all these things
are true. I guess I don't want to think about the fact that even at 18
there is so much treif in the yeshiva world. The community college across
the street is looking better all the time. At least we would have our boy
home another two years:)) [...]47_24May200522:25:52-0700michelletamar@HOTMAIL.COM 14139 95 20_Re: mesorah/enabling0_17_RENALEVIN@AOL.COM29_Wed, 25 May 2005 09:16:04 EDT467_US-ASCII In a message dated 5/25/05 1:59:02 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
LISTSERV@SHAMASH.ORG writes:

> learned
> Talmud from my Grandfather but I learned the feeling of Judaism from my
> mother and my
> Lubavitch grade school teacher.'
>

I went to a shloshim memorial last night. The lady passed away on Chol Hamoed
Pesach, so there were no hespedim at her levaya, and her family made an
appropriate send-off last night instead. [...]37_25May200509:16:04EDTRENALEVIN@AOL.COM 14235 82 12_Re: yeshivas0_17_RENALEVIN@AOL.COM29_Wed, 25 May 2005 09:20:12 EDT631_US-ASCII In a message dated 5/25/05 1:59:02 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
LISTSERV@SHAMASH.ORG writes:

> Do you mind saying the name(s) of the yeshiva(s) where you found this
> attitude? (either on or off-list)
>

I don't think that it would be helpful to name specific yeshivas and/or point
fingers at other yeshivas and say that they have "problems". by definition,
each year there is an influx of new blood. some of it may be bad blood.
Institutions are not static, they grow and change (hopefully). and the whole
complexion of the yeshiva world might be different by the time your particular [...]37_25May200509:20:12EDTRENALEVIN@AOL.COM 14318 33 12_Re: yeshivas17_Rachel Turniansky28_rachelturniansky@HOTMAIL.COM31_Wed, 25 May 2005 11:44:08 -0400483_- >
> > Do you mind saying the name(s) of the yeshiva(s) where you found this
> > attitude? (either on or off-list)
> >
>
>I don't think that it would be helpful to name specific yeshivas and/or
>point
>fingers at other yeshivas and say that they have "problems".

I didn't mean for you to mention the names of the "problem" yeshivas. I was
wondering the name of the yeshiva where you found the "right" answers
regarding smoking, drinking, etc. [...]50_25May200511:44:08-0400rachelturniansky@HOTMAIL.COM 14352 84 16_Re: Kindergarten14_Malkie Swidler24_swidler@NETVISION.NET.IL31_Wed, 25 May 2005 19:46:33 +0200421_us-ascii Mandy--

What is your homeschooling philosophy?
A lot of people turn to curricula because they have neither an
underlying philosophy nor an understanding of child development. Many of
us have bought into the "more sooner" approach to academics, regardless
of the ample evidence that suggests that early academics are harmful to
yound children. Not beneficial, not indifferent. Harmful. [...]46_25May200519:46:33+0200swidler@NETVISION.NET.IL 14437 91 16_Re: Kindergarten13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Wed, 25 May 2005 16:39:58 -0700543_us-ascii Malkie, your point is so important! I was just talking with my husband about this last week. It is crucial to know what you want to achieve in your homeschooling efforts, or else how will you know if you are being successful? I have defined my philosophy and goals for myself, and as a result, find that I am much less affected by what others say than I would be otherwise. Yes, I do periodically rethink what I am doing and sometimes feel insecurity or indecision, but overall, I love what I am doing with my kids and feel that [...]44_25May200516:39:58-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 14529 129 16_Re: Kindergarten14_Mandy Oeschger23_sailorswife@KNOLOGY.NET31_Wed, 25 May 2005 19:26:37 -0500587_iso-8859-1 Malkie,

Hmm. I'm not sure that I claim a philosophy :-) I'm thinking strongly
about the A Beka program. It's more reasonably priced and I've received
wonderful advice here about using the library for Geography and such as
needed. We do go to the library often so it would work out fine. I don't
think structured "book" learning would be harmful to my son. He thrives off
accomplishments and challenges. Not to say my path is right for all
children by any means. Outside of the box, we enjoy things like figuring
out which end of a worm is top [...]45_25May200519:26:37-0500sailorswife@KNOLOGY.NET 14659 72 20_Re: mesorah/enabling16_Russell J Hendel17_rjhendel@JUNO.COM31_Wed, 25 May 2005 20:41:22 -0400416_us-ascii Rena
Thanks for adding your story to mine. BOth statements (The one of your
friend
and the statement of the Rav) are testaments to (a) Home schooling (b)
the importance
of women in Jewish education (As if we on this group did not know this).
In passing
we had a few emails a while back on the Kashruth of home-schooling...I
think my
and Renas stories answer this adequately. [...]39_25May200520:41:22-0400rjhendel@JUNO.COM 14732 77 9_curricula16_ZagorskyGoldberg28_zagorskygoldberg@VERIZON.NET31_Wed, 25 May 2005 22:20:11 -0400394_iso-8859-1 So ARE there any "in the box" curricula for limudei kodesh? I don't think so, but, boy, would I happily pay for one of those "now do this....now do that" kinds of things for limudei kodesh!

Thanks,

Ellen
in our fifth year of homeschooling three great girls

move to Malden--my shul will loan you the downpayment for your home!
www.bethisraelmalden.com [...]50_25May200522:20:11-0400zagorskygoldberg@VERIZON.NET 14810 404 13_Re: curricula8_S Sloman18_ssloman@NETLAB.COM31_Thu, 26 May 2005 05:00:11 -0500523_us-ascii From the beginning, this has been the resource that is most lacking,
especially since this is the area most frum homeschoolers feel least
confident in.

If someone were to produce a decent homeschooling limudei kodesh
program, I think many people would at least try it.

In my opinion, I think it would have to concentrate on information
(about the basic traditional texts, historical facts, etc.), rather than
trying to convey a hashkafa, since we have such a range of approaches. [...]40_26May200505:00:11-0500ssloman@NETLAB.COM 15215 40 38_Goals & Philosophies; was Kindergarten12_Rena Weisman19_renaweisman@COX.NET31_Wed, 25 May 2005 22:12:33 -0700457_us-ascii At 04:39 PM 5/25/2005, you wrote:
> I have defined my philosophy and goals for myself, and as a result, find
> that I am much less affected by what others say than I would be
> otherwise. Yes, I do periodically rethink what I am doing and sometimes
> feel insecurity or indecision, but overall, I love what I am doing with
> my kids and feel that I have been successful in working towards my
> parenting/homeschooling goals. [...]41_25May200522:12:33-0700renaweisman@COX.NET 15256 30 28_Affordable Jewish Community?12_Rena Weisman19_renaweisman@COX.NET31_Thu, 26 May 2005 07:13:30 -0700602_us-ascii Although this isn't 100% home-school related, I hope it makes it through
the moderators.

As this list is large and diverse, I thought this would be a perfect place
to ask this question....

Does anyone live in or know of a small Jewish community that is somewhat
established, i.e., there is a Shul where our kids could have at least one
friend/peer....the place would still be considered "out of town"... and
home prices within walking distance to the Shul are under $300K? We're
looking for a place where the community is established but still growing.... [...]41_26May200507:13:30-0700renaweisman@COX.NET 15287 50 41_NYC Salute to Israel Parade - Meet there?13_Barbara Mazor19_barbmazor@YAHOO.COM31_Thu, 26 May 2005 18:05:54 -0700524_us-ascii For anyone interested:

The New York City Salute to Israel Parade will take place on Sunday June 5, 2005 from 11:00am to 4:30pm. The parade marches on 5th Avenue from 57th to 79th St.

We will be position ourselves to watch around 63rd-64th Streets on the Central Park side of 5th Avenue (not too far from public restrooms at the Wohlman Rink and the Zoo!). So, if anyone would like to come and join us, send me an email - or just show up! We probably won't get there until close to 11:30, though. [...]41_26May200518:05:54-0700barbmazor@YAHOO.COM 15338 67 32_Re: Affordable Jewish Community?8_S Sloman18_ssloman@NETLAB.COM31_Thu, 26 May 2005 21:26:35 -0500395_us-ascii Here in South Bend, Indiana, houses within walking distance to shul are
under $100K for a 3-4 bedroom. If you want to pay $200K, you can get
something quite large and nice.

The community is predominantly Yeshivish, but with many across the
spectrum.

We are about 2.5 hours from Chicago (so you can easily go for whatever
supplies are not available here). [...]40_26May200521:26:35-0500ssloman@NETLAB.COM 15406 53 32_Re: Affordable Jewish Community?11_Rivky Kahan22_rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM31_Thu, 26 May 2005 21:18:49 -0400698_- We recently visited Ottawa and it was beautiful! I found that the people
there are very warm-the scenery just lovely. It is a small community. If you
want to know more you can email me privately. Rivky

>From: Rena Weisman
>Reply-To: Torah-Centered Homeschooling
>To: TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG
>Subject: [TORCH-D] Affordable Jewish Community?
>Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 07:13:30 -0700
>
>Although this isn't 100% home-school related, I hope it makes it through
>the moderators.
>
>As this list is large and diverse, I thought this would be a perfect place
>to ask this question....
>
>Does anyone live in or [...]44_26May200521:18:49-0400rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM 15460 86 32_Re: Affordable Jewish Community?14_Bill Bernstein27_billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET31_Thu, 26 May 2005 21:33:24 -0500630_ISO-8859-1 And South Bend retains enough of that "Rust Belt" feel to make natives
of Secaucus feel right at home.
Seriously, why do Jews end up in the lousiest places? NY, LA, Detroit,
Chicago, Memphis, etc.
-Bill

S Sloman wrote:

>Here in South Bend, Indiana, houses within walking distance to shul are
>under $100K for a 3-4 bedroom. If you want to pay $200K, you can get
>something quite large and nice.
>
>The community is predominantly Yeshivish, but with many across the
>spectrum.
>
>We are about 2.5 hours from Chicago (so you can easily go for whatever
>supplies are [...]49_26May200521:33:24-0500billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET 15547 86 32_Re: Affordable Jewish Community?12_Rena Weisman19_renaweisman@COX.NET31_Thu, 26 May 2005 20:08:19 -0700599_us-ascii Hi Shoshana,

Thanks for your e-mail and the good info!

Can you tell me a bit more about the Shul?

I have 2 girls, one is almost 2 and a half and the other is 4 months.

Thanks!
Rena

At 07:26 PM 5/26/2005, you wrote:
>Here in South Bend, Indiana, houses within walking distance to shul are
>under $100K for a 3-4 bedroom. If you want to pay $200K, you can get
>something quite large and nice.
>
>The community is predominantly Yeshivish, but with many across the
>spectrum.
>
>We are about 2.5 hours from Chicago (so you can [...]41_26May200520:08:19-0700renaweisman@COX.NET 15634 122 32_Re: Affordable Jewish Community?8_S Sloman18_ssloman@NETLAB.COM31_Fri, 27 May 2005 05:21:35 -0500610_us-ascii Bill, have you ever visited South Bend?

The University of Notre Dame is here. Outside the city are vast amounts
of farmland and woodlands (including state parks). In the city are many
municipal parks, with playgrounds, rivers, etc. We have a minor league
baseball team, a zoo, a symphony, and an extremely low-stress downtown
area. It's a very manageable city, with the added benefit that the
surrounding (non-Jewish) culture tends to be morally conservative, so we
don't see a lot of non-tznius clothing, behavior, or advertising. Just
nice, polite, friendly people. [...]40_27May200505:21:35-0500ssloman@NETLAB.COM 15757 115 32_Re: Affordable Jewish Community?8_S Sloman18_ssloman@NETLAB.COM31_Fri, 27 May 2005 05:22:42 -0500509_us-ascii I'll email you off-list about that, so we don't go too far off-topic.

(You know, someone should start a list for the purpose of discussing
places to live. The topic comes up continually.)

Shoshana Sloman
Torch-d listowner

-----Original Message-----
From: Torah-Centered Homeschooling [mailto:TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG] On
Behalf Of Rena Weisman
Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2005 10:08 PM
To: TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG
Subject: Re: [TORCH-D] Affordable Jewish Community? [...]40_27May200505:22:42-0500ssloman@NETLAB.COM 15873 113 32_Re: Affordable Jewish Community?18_Benjamin H Dickman19_bdickman@LUCENT.COM31_Fri, 27 May 2005 00:09:00 -0400518_us-ascii bs'd
Bill,

My grandfather actually entered the U.S. through San Francisco
(from Shanghai) and worked in Hollywood silent movies studios
as a make-up artist and hairdresser. He moved to NY to find
a nice Jewish girl. Cherchez la femme.

My other grandparents didn't sign up for the grand U.S. tour
when they entered the country because of money problems.
Couldn't tour the residential U.S. because there was no internet.
The rich get richer and the poor get what's left. [...]41_27May200500:09:00-0400bdickman@LUCENT.COM 15987 146 32_Re: Affordable Jewish Community?0_21_YiddisheMameh@AOL.COM29_Fri, 27 May 2005 08:39:55 EDT652_US-ASCII In a message dated 5/26/2005 8:51:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
renaweisman@COX.NET writes:

Although this isn't 100% home-school related, I hope it makes it through
the moderators.

As this list is large and diverse, I thought this would be a perfect place
to ask this question....

Does anyone live in or know of a small Jewish community that is somewhat
established, i.e., there is a Shul where our kids could have at least one
friend/peer....the place would still be considered "out of town"... and
home prices within walking distance to the Shul are under $300K? We're
looking for a place where [...]41_27May200508:39:55EDTYiddisheMameh@AOL.COM 16134 24 32_Re: Affordable Jewish Community?19_malkiadler@juno.com19_malkiadler@JUNO.COM29_Fri, 27 May 2005 16:07:28 GMT317_- Did you ever consider Detroit, or more accurately, Oak Park? The housing is still under 300k and there are plenty of shull options. It is a very friendly community and very out of town (pros and cons!) We feel it is a great place to raise our 7 kids. And we would certainly love to welcome more homeschoolers! [...]39_27May200516:07:28GMTmalkiadler@JUNO.COM 16159 33 31_Re: affordable Jewish community10_Louise Fox20_louise@JOSHUAFOX.COM31_Sat, 28 May 2005 22:10:51 +0400545_us-ascii Why not move to Israel?!

There are a huge number of options for frum people in this country, and
of course there is the prime reason of it being Eretz Hakodesh.

For example, we live in a nice small community of about 120 families,10
minutes drive to the nearest town. The house next door to us is
currently for sale - under $200K, with a nice garden too. And it takes
us all of about 30 seconds to reach shul, as the shul is in the centre
of the circle formed by our street and we are right beside one [...]42_28May200522:10:51+0400louise@JOSHUAFOX.COM 16193 29 12_Re: Lakewood12_Caryn Lipson24_caryn_lipson@HOTMAIL.COM31_Sun, 29 May 2005 08:11:29 -0400426_iso-8859-1 Hi,

This is off topic but if anyone has any info please contact me off line -
cml613@hotmail.com. We're currently in Highland Park/Edison NJ area. We need
to move by the end of June and can't afford to buy at the moment. The
rentals here are expensive and too small for us - family of four 1 boy and 1
girl. We are seriously considering moving to Lakewood and would appreciate
any input. [...]46_29May200508:11:29-0400caryn_lipson@HOTMAIL.COM 16223 115 32_Re: Affordable Jewish Community?16_Avigayil Simpson26_avigayil_simpson@YAHOO.COM31_Sat, 28 May 2005 23:22:17 -0700494_us-ascii Hi,

I just wanted to applaud Louise's post and add my $0.02 worth on the discussion about Jewish communities, unpopular though it may be:

Honestly! Why doesn't throwing in their lot with the rest of us here in Israel seem to cross anyone's mind???????! It's like Israel doesn't exist...... It certainly has everything to offer that anyone could possibly be looking for. And you'd be doing yourself and your kids the biggest favor by getting yourselves out of galut! [...]48_28May200523:22:17-0700avigayil_simpson@YAHOO.COM 16339 146 32_Re: Affordable Jewish Community?13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Sun, 29 May 2005 08:22:09 -0700553_us-ascii Having lived in Israel for ten years, with my oldest four children having been born there, I can certainly appreciate the beauty and significance of life in the Holy Land. However, I think it is very important to keep in mind that different people have different needs. Life in Israel at this time is not for everyone - it may be the difficulty of finding work, moving with kids too old to easily adopt an Israeli identity and fit into schools there, or wanting to stay close to family and friends here. Also, moving to a new country is a [...]44_29May200508:22:09-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 16486 113 24_Re: Goals & Philosophies13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Sun, 29 May 2005 09:09:46 -0700574_us-ascii Gosh, Rena, these are big questions! I will try to sum up my thoughts on this, which are quite extensive.

My philosophy could be summarized as follows: no one knows, loves, understands, and cares about my children and their successful development the way that I do. I want to be directly involved in their lives, and want us all to share significant experiences as a family. I want learning to be a lifelong pursuit that is filled with joy, and feel that it can be when children are treated as the individuals that they are, and taught when their minds [...]44_29May200509:09:46-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 16600 152 21_Re: yeshiva concerns?14_Laya B Jackson17_tolife18@JUNO.COM31_Fri, 27 May 2005 13:17:34 +0200405_us-ascii Rena, please tell me that the boys who were involved with that got some
kind of treatment? Did the boy who was raped get couselling? I don't
need to tell you how unnerving a report like that is, and I'm so afraid
about this kind of story. One of the threads I read about on the frum
teen website that came up on this list recently was about internet porn
among yesshiva boys. [...]39_27May200513:17:34+0200tolife18@JUNO.COM 16753 178 32_Re: Affordable Jewish Community?16_Avigayil Simpson26_avigayil_simpson@YAHOO.COM31_Sun, 29 May 2005 10:35:06 -0700627_us-ascii "Life in Israel at this time is not for everyone...."
I get your drift.

"If someone offered me tickets to move tomorrow to Israel, I honestly don't know if I would take them..." How utterly heartbreaking to hear.

Avigayil

Avivah Werner wrote:
Having lived in Israel for ten years, with my oldest four children having been born there, I can certainly appreciate the beauty and significance of life in the Holy Land. However, I think it is very important to keep in mind that different people have different needs. Life in Israel at this time is not for everyone [...]48_29May200510:35:06-0700avigayil_simpson@YAHOO.COM 16932 144 32_Re: Affordable Jewish Community?11_Rivky Kahan22_rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM31_Sun, 29 May 2005 15:55:31 -0400567_- Avigayil,
You asked why living in Israel doesnt seem to cross anyone's mind. I dont
like to speak for other people, but i'd like to put in my own $0.02 worth
and take an educated guess. I dont know that its really true that it doesnt
cross anyone's mind. The original poster just asked for a small affordable
community-she didnt say that she wouldnt consider Israel. Nobody said that,
as far as i remember. But if there is any truth to that, i could think of
some possible reasons. You are right in all the lovely things you say about
[...]44_29May200515:55:31-0400rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM 17077 211 32_Re: Affordable Jewish Community?13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Sun, 29 May 2005 14:56:36 -0700548_us-ascii Sorry to break your heart.

I am quite aware that in being open and honest, without any pretensions to be anything that I am not, that I increase the possibility of being judged negatively. I hope your heart doesn't break because I have made a well-thought out and well-considered decision that works best for my family, or because I have shalom bayis, happy and well raised kids, or parents who are part of our children's lives. Surely you couldn't be unhappy that we are responsible and contributing members of our community. [...]44_29May200514:56:36-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 17289 57 32_Re: Affordable Jewish Community?15_Alison Jacobson23_alisonziskind@YAHOO.COM31_Sun, 29 May 2005 16:33:44 -0700464_iso-8859-1 I've spoken to people who asked shailas about moving
to Israel, and were told not to go yet, to wait. It
was usually because there were children involved, and
the rabbaim didn't feel it would be a smooth or
advantageous transition. Moving to another country
is, as others have pointed out, a major endeavor,
especially when the economic situation is not optimal.
So it's not like people aren't curious and asking
their Rav. [...]45_29May200516:33:44-0700alisonziskind@YAHOO.COM 17347 180 20_Re: yeshiva concerns12_Caryn Lipson24_caryn_lipson@HOTMAIL.COM31_Sun, 29 May 2005 20:45:45 -0400540_iso-8859-1 Hi All,

I'm working part-time in a local synagogue, not the one we attend, and the Rabbi there thinks that my son is going on a wayward path by homeschooling. Ds left school at the beginning of this, his 9th grade year, and has not been particularly learning since leaving. I'm beginning to see ds expressing more interest in Limudei Kodesh lately and am confident that given time he will get the negativity left over from 8 years of horrible Yeshiva experiences out of his system and learn lishma as is appropriate. [...]46_29May200520:45:45-0400caryn_lipson@HOTMAIL.COM 17528 71 20_Re: yeshiva concerns13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Sun, 29 May 2005 18:17:38 -0700554_us-ascii First of all, Caryn, I think you have been doing a great thing for your son by helping him do the things that are building him up from the inside. I hope you continue to see the positive changes you have already witnessed.

Regarding using the postings, my thoughts are as follows. It sounds like you are hoping to help this rabbi see your point of view, and for him to realize that yeshivas have 'issues'. If this person is unaware that issues like this exist, then he is in severe denial and showing him some writings by some kooky [...]44_29May200518:17:38-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 17600 42 32_Re: Affordable Jewish Community?12_Yael Resnick22_njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM31_Sun, 29 May 2005 21:00:59 -0400498_us-ascii I know many people who dream of the day when they will move to
Israel. I also know many who have made aliyah (the town I live in
seems to "launch" many families into aliyah). Most of them, although
certainly not all, were able to do so because (a) they have family
already in Israel, (b) they have no close family ties in the U.S.,
and/or (c) they were going through a major life transition (death of
a spouse, for example) and were ready to start a brand new life. [...]44_29May200521:00:59-0400njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM 17643 34 32_Re: Affordable Jewish Community?12_Yael Resnick22_njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM31_Fri, 27 May 2005 01:04:14 -0400619_us-ascii I live in Sharon, Mass., which is beautiful and warm (the people, not
the weather lately), quiet streets, very walkable, with several shuls
to choose from. It's a wonderful community with absolutely gorgeous
nature all around (an Audubon preserve, a State Park, and a lake with
beaches are all right IN this small town). It's definitely on the
more expensive side (although relatively speaking for the Boston
area, it's not the worst) -- but there ARE houses in the $300,000
range, which are usually small and/or needing some work. Not a bad
way to get into a housing market where [...]44_27May200501:04:14-0400njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM 17678 83 22_Grobar -- a must read!11_Nechama Cox20_nechama@BOREALIS.COM31_Sun, 29 May 2005 21:34:54 -0400339_us-ascii As some of you know, my BIL, Joseph wrote an incredibly creative kids
book. It has finally come out in print, so non-Coxes are getting a
chance to read it. (He has actually written 3 books of the series,
and we have gotten to read all of them. My kids love them, and I
really enjoy reading the book to the boys). [...]42_29May200521:34:54-0400nechama@BOREALIS.COM 17762 270 20_Re: yeshiva concerns12_Caryn Lipson24_caryn_lipson@HOTMAIL.COM31_Sun, 29 May 2005 21:39:46 -0400464_iso-8859-1 Avivah,

Thanks for the chizuk.

Caryn

----- Original Message -----
From: Avivah Werner
To: TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG
Sent: Sunday, May 29, 2005 9:17 PM
Subject: Re: [TORCH-D] yeshiva concerns

First of all, Caryn, I think you have been doing a great thing for your son by helping him do the things that are building him up from the inside. I hope you continue to see the positive changes you have already witnessed. [...]46_29May200521:39:46-0400caryn_lipson@HOTMAIL.COM 18033 26 71_Re: Affordable Jewish Community? If you home school all is a ffordable!17_rjhendel@juno.com17_rjhendel@JUNO.COM29_Sun, 29 May 2005 22:57:46 GMT353_- Hmm...affordable means you a) can buy a home b) pay gas and electric c) belong to the synagogue d) send your children to school...Hmm...what school? I thought we were home-schoolers.

There are many people on this list who are out in the middle of no-where. IN the past I have seen postings describing how their childrens make friends etc. [...]37_29May200522:57:46GMTrjhendel@JUNO.COM 18060 84 16_Re: Kindergarten14_Malkie Swidler24_swidler@NETVISION.NET.IL31_Wed, 25 May 2005 19:47:00 +0200421_us-ascii Mandy--

What is your homeschooling philosophy?
A lot of people turn to curricula because they have neither an
underlying philosophy nor an understanding of child development. Many of
us have bought into the "more sooner" approach to academics, regardless
of the ample evidence that suggests that early academics are harmful to
young children. Not beneficial, not indifferent. Harmful. [...]46_25May200519:47:00+0200swidler@NETVISION.NET.IL 18145 36 32_Re: Affordable Jewish Community?15_Wendy Bernstein28_wendybernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET31_Mon, 30 May 2005 00:20:53 -0400456_iso-8859-1 Hi, Rena.

We're looking into Jacksonville, FL. There is a beautiful shul, a school
(up to grade 4) and about 35 families altogether. Homes are in the mid to
upper 200's for a 3-4 bedroom. The community is lovely, but, alas! No
restaurants. Can you cope? :) The shul's website is: http://etzchaim.org/
Wendy in Miami, for now...
Mom to Esti (9), Moshe Yosef (7), Akiva (5), Rachmy (2) and Yocheved Miriam
(12/4/04!) [...]50_30May200500:20:53-0400wendybernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET 18182 118 32_Re: Affordable Jewish Community?12_david horesh20_dhoresh@HOTBREAD.NET31_Sun, 29 May 2005 21:29:48 -0800608_US-ASCII Hi Rena,
I am responding to your original question about affordable Jewish
communities.

If you want a young community (both in terms of average age of members and
age of the community) then may I suggest Anchorage, AK. The home prices
around the shul are in the 250-350 range, depending on what you're looking
for. The shul is small, Chabad, and very intimate. There is a mikva, and
kosher food is available locally and via bulk orders. The community has a
preschool and an afternoon program for older kids. They also bring in young
women to teach torah to their [...]42_29May200521:29:48-0800dhoresh@HOTBREAD.NET 18301 105 32_Re: Affordable Jewish Community?16_Avigayil Simpson26_avigayil_simpson@YAHOO.COM31_Sun, 29 May 2005 22:51:27 -0700660_us-ascii I don't recall H-shem telling Abraham: "Get thee out of they land and out of they father's house but only if it'll be a smooth and advantageous transition. Otherwise, you're off the hook."

Avigayil

Alison Jacobson wrote: I've spoken to people who asked shailas about moving
to Israel, and were told not to go yet, to wait. It
was usually because there were children involved, and
the rabbaim didn't feel it would be a smooth or
advantageous transition. Moving to another country
is, as others have pointed out, a major endeavor,
especially when the economic situation is not optimal.
[...]48_29May200522:51:27-0700avigayil_simpson@YAHOO.COM 18407 32 8_Lakewood12_david horesh20_dhoresh@HOTBREAD.NET31_Sun, 29 May 2005 10:04:05 -0800535_US-ASCII We are seriously considering moving to Lakewood and would appreciate
any input.

Caryn,

I grew up in Lakewood. My family continues to live there, and I visit often.
We will actually be there next Shabbat. As an Orthodox Jewish community you
cannot ask for more. As a caveat though, my experience has told me it is
not very accepting to people who do not follow the community norms.
Considering the number of Jewish educational options there, you may
encounter resistance to home schooling. [...]42_29May200510:04:05-0800dhoresh@HOTBREAD.NET 18440 47 24_closing thread on Israel13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Mon, 30 May 2005 03:10:26 -0700371_us-ascii Since the thread about Israel is going further afield than appropriate for our list, all further messages can be exchanged via private correspondence, for those who have the interest.

There are many great places to consider moving, and if you have an idea that hasn't yet been mentioned, please email your suggestion directly to the original poster. [...]44_30May200503:10:26-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 18488 93 20_Re: yeshiva concerns0_17_RENALEVIN@AOL.COM29_Mon, 30 May 2005 09:58:28 EDT571_US-ASCII In a message dated 5/30/05 1:57:43 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
LISTSERV@SHAMASH.ORG writes:

> Rena, please tell me that the boys who were involved with that got some
> kind of treatment? Did the boy who was raped get couselling?

Yes, the boy got counseling from his very loving, warm and with-it, on top of
things, responsible parents. No clue about the boys who were involved. I
doubt that anything was done/resolved. The name of the game is blame the
victim....something is wrong with that boy, how could he say such things!?!? [...]37_30May200509:58:28EDTRENALEVIN@AOL.COM 18582 91 19_Re: school concerns0_17_RENALEVIN@AOL.COM29_Mon, 30 May 2005 10:04:38 EDT517_US-ASCII In a message dated 5/30/05 1:57:43 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
LISTSERV@SHAMASH.ORG writes:

> Ds left school at the beginning of this, his 9th grade =
> year, and has not been particularly learning since leaving. I'm =
> beginning to see ds expressing more interest in Limudei Kodesh lately =
> and am confident that given time he will get the negativity left over =
> from 8 years of horrible Yeshiva experiences out of his system and learn =
> lishma as is appropriate.=20
> [...]37_30May200510:04:38EDTRENALEVIN@AOL.COM 18674 265 20_Re: yeshiva concerns0_17_RENALEVIN@AOL.COM29_Mon, 30 May 2005 10:39:33 EDT548_US-ASCII In a message dated 5/30/05 1:57:43 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
LISTSERV@SHAMASH.ORG writes:

> In other respects the Rabbi is extremely helpful and supportive but I =
> really wish that not knowing my son and his situation, he would judge ds =
> l'kav zechus and accept our decision as parents.
>

If the guy is extremely helpful and supportive, then by all means let him
know that you are not a reactionary nut job, but a well thought out, put together
mom who is following a different derech in chinuch. [...]37_30May200510:39:33EDTRENALEVIN@AOL.COM 18940 106 20_Re: yeshiva concerns14_Bill Bernstein27_billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET31_Mon, 30 May 2005 10:13:52 -0500549_ISO-8859-1 My first response to this would have been to say that for a certain sum
I have friends who could take care of this rabbi.
But in thinking about it more I decided to try to see it from the
rabbi's perspective, which can be helpful sometimes.
What the rabbi sees is a kid who is not learning in a formal setting.
Every day that goes by he is one day further behind his peers. The
sooner he gets into a yeshiva setting, which is where Torah is taught,
the sooner he can begin "catching up" to his peers. Eventually [...]49_30May200510:13:52-0500billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET 19047 55 22_curriculum development12_Yael Resnick22_njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM31_Mon, 30 May 2005 11:59:51 -0400643_us-ascii Recently a few people on this list have mentioned a need for a
ready-to-use curriculum for limudei kodesh (focusing on texts and
skills rather than a particular religious "hashkafa") -- something
along the lines of "Torchlight" perhaps.

For the past several months, I have been working with a friend to
create a curriculum geared toward middle school and junior high age,
based on a holistic education model. Our approach is to supplement
and enhance traditional learning and text-based skills through making
connections to art, ecology, math, writing, social studies, and
science, as appropriate. [...]44_30May200511:59:51-0400njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM 19103 47 26_Re: curriculum development0_17_Sarasimp7@AOL.COM29_Mon, 30 May 2005 15:38:29 EDT458_US-ASCII You might try Rabbi Butler at the Afikim Foundation.
Sara in Des Moines

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by
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a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and
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To unsubscribe email: TORCH-D-unsubscribe-request@SHAMASH.ORG37_30May200515:38:29EDTSarasimp7@AOL.COM 19151 47 21_Re: yeshiva concerns?14_Malkie Swidler24_swidler@NETVISION.NET.IL31_Tue, 31 May 2005 00:08:55 +0200459_us-ascii I'm just sitting here pondering:
If kids are going to yeshiva and encountering the worst sorts of tumah
there, is it muttar to send them? If we need to coach our sons on
personal defense so they can ward off a group of boys with pure evil on
their minds, can we send our boys *to begin with* into such an
enviroment to "learn"?
I know when public schools became Mitrayim-- but when did we descend
down into the 49th level?! [...]46_31May200500:08:55+0200swidler@NETVISION.NET.IL 19199 43 59_RESPONSE TO MALKIE: RE: Curricula and stages of development16_Russell J Hendel17_rjhendel@JUNO.COM31_Mon, 30 May 2005 16:25:42 -0400553_us-ascii Actually Rav Hirsch DIRECTLY deals with
- how many stages do children go thru
- what should you do at each stage

I have posted his ideas on this group several times (Burried in the
archives
no doubt)

For those who wish to read this directly go to Rav Hirsch's commentary
on Ex25, the Menorah. Rav Hirsch in typical symbolic manner interprets
the 18 tepach menorah as representing the 18 years from infancy to
adulthood. The ornaments at each tepach teach us how to educate
our children at each stage. [...]39_30May200516:25:42-0400rjhendel@JUNO.COM 19243 36 40_Answer to Yael: Non -standard Curriculum16_Russell J Hendel17_rjhendel@JUNO.COM31_Mon, 30 May 2005 16:47:16 -0400506_us-ascii Yael
You may be interested in some projects by AMIT the official religious
charity
for Israel. The specialize in curing high school dropouts and have a very
high
success rate.

One of their experiments was to create a school where "success" is not
measured
by the traditional 3 Rs--reading, writing, arithmetic. Rather subjects
range from
hiking, to music, to woodcutting. They have taken kids who were rude
insecure
etc and made them perfectly normal. [...]39_30May200516:47:16-0400rjhendel@JUNO.COM 19280 75 21_Re: yeshiva concerns?17_Chana Silberstein16_cs32@CORNELL.EDU31_Mon, 30 May 2005 18:18:44 -0400580_us-ascii Let's not overgeneralize here. Yeshivas as a group do not condone or
encourage evil, just as families as a group do not encourage abuse
and neglect. Unfortunately, however, very bad things sometimes happen
in both settings.

What matters is that you can know what YOUR home is like and what you
are willing and able to provide.. what YOUR child is like, and where
your child is most likely to prosper, and on the basis of your
research of a particular yeshiva, the likelihood of your child doing
better at home or in a particular yeshiva. [...]38_30May200518:18:44-0400cs32@CORNELL.EDU 19356 72 44_Re: Answer to Yael: Non -standard Curriculum12_Yael Resnick22_njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM31_Mon, 30 May 2005 20:02:09 -0400435_us-ascii Hi Russell,

I'm familiar with Amit. This is a completely different thing. It's
interesting that on hearing about the program we're developing, many
people assume that this would be for kids who cannot succeed in a
"traditional" program that exclusively emphasizes academics -- kids
with "problems."

It's 100% my fault for not explaining clearly in the first place.
Here's some clarification: [...]44_30May200520:02:09-0400njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM 19429 52 20_Re: yeshiva concerns13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Mon, 30 May 2005 19:44:40 -0700519_us-ascii Ah, Rena, you trust me to back you up on this?! Okay, everything that comes out of Rena's mouth is honeyed and said with love and respect for all. As long as you agree with her. :)

Love ya, Rena!

Avivah

RENALEVIN@AOL.COM wrote:
We have taught this guy something, gently put him in his place! AH, vindication and revenge is so sweet! (Of course, I mean that in only a most charming and soft way, it sounds better in person than on paper, Avivah, will you vouch for me on this one?) [...]44_30May200519:44:40-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 19482 68 17_shiur reflections13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Mon, 30 May 2005 20:13:16 -0700506_us-ascii I went to a fantastic shiur tonight about educating the individual, and I loved just about everything he said. I was inwardly nodding my head the entire time, as I listened to this rabbi decry our one size fits all curriculums and expectations for our children's achievements, the need for developing one's unique kochos. His various sources for the crucial importance of recognizing who are children are and actively helping them develop were just fabulous, too many to share but excellent. [...]44_30May200520:13:16-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 19551 556 21_Re: shiur reflections8_S Sloman18_ssloman@NETLAB.COM31_Mon, 30 May 2005 22:17:55 -0500774_US-ASCII Very few people teach school "masterfully".

Fascinating story, Avivah. Thanks for sharing.

Shoshana Sloman
Torch-d listowner

-----Original Message-----
From: Torah-Centered Homeschooling [mailto:TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG] On
Behalf Of Avivah Werner
Sent: Monday, May 30, 2005 10:13 PM
To: TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG
Subject: [TORCH-D] shiur reflections

I went to a fantastic shiur tonight about educating the individual, and
I loved just about everything he said. I was inwardly nodding my head
the entire time, as I listened to this rabbi decry our one size fits all
curriculums and expectations for our children's achievements, the need
for developing one's unique kochos. His various sources for the crucial
[...]40_30May200522:17:55-0500ssloman@NETLAB.COM 20108 31 44_Re: Answer to Yael: Non -standard Curriculum16_Russell J Hendel17_rjhendel@JUNO.COM31_Mon, 30 May 2005 23:33:28 -0400485_us-ascii Yael
One more clarification needed. You write
>>>>>>>>>>>>
One model we are considering for our local program is a drop-in
learning center for Jewish homeschoolers. We plan to offer a full
limudei kodesh program in the morning, and secular options in the
afternoon, G-d willing.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Sounds to me like you are making your own day school (Good luck)
Or are we missing something...how will your local program differ
from a school [...]39_30May200523:33:28-0400rjhendel@JUNO.COM 20140 104 38_Re: shiur reflections: Answer to Aviva16_Russell J Hendel17_rjhendel@JUNO.COM31_Mon, 30 May 2005 23:38:26 -0400394_us-ascii Although I already said this in light of Aviva citing a Rabbi I think I
should repeat it:
- It is true that initially parents taught children
- but orphans had no one to teach them
- so they instituted communal schools
- The Rav (Soloveitchick) explained based on a technical passage in
Rambam
that there is a separate requirement of "socialization" for kids [...]39_30May200523:38:26-0400rjhendel@JUNO.COM 20245 38 50_Re: yeshiva concerns? RE: Not all Yeshivas are bad16_Russell J Hendel17_rjhendel@JUNO.COM31_Mon, 30 May 2005 23:29:08 -0400469_us-ascii I certainly DO agree with Chana that not all Yeshivas are bad
and that we should not generalize.

BUT....and this is a problem....we expect the best from
Yeshivoth, after all they are Yeshivoth.

So if say 0.01% of Business people cheat I need not get that concerned.
But if 0.01% of Yeshivoth have toomah I must be concerned EVEN AT
THE RISK of sounding like they are all bad (which as I just said I agree
is
not the case). [...]39_30May200523:29:08-0400rjhendel@JUNO.COM 20284 30 32_Re: Affordable Jewish Community?12_Rena Weisman19_renaweisman@COX.NET31_Mon, 30 May 2005 22:16:12 -0700419_us-ascii Thank you all so much for your posts, on and off line about the different
communities around the world.

We're still doing research and aren't anywhere close to making a decision.
I value all of your input and help.

Thank you for taking the time to respond.

Kol Tuv,
Rena W.

P.S. Wendy - yes, we can cope without restaurants. Here in AZ they're few
and far between! [...]41_30May200522:16:12-0700renaweisman@COX.NET 20315 171 24_Re: Goals & Philosophies12_Rena Weisman19_renaweisman@COX.NET31_Mon, 30 May 2005 22:19:47 -07000_41_30May200522:19:47-0700renaweisman@COX.NET 20487 101 21_Re: shiur reflections14_Malkie Swidler24_swidler@NETVISION.NET.IL31_Tue, 31 May 2005 10:23:18 +0200638_us-ascii Avivah--

"Show me inside where it says that".

It's the most important quote I have ever learned (especially when
working with my ever chumra-loving bil). Where do chazal say that all
children must go to school?

Malkie

Avivah Werner wrote:
> I went to a fantastic shiur tonight about educating the individual, and
> I loved just about everything he said. I was inwardly nodding my head
> the entire time, as I listened to this rabbi decry our one size fits all
> curriculums and expectations for our children's achievements, the need
> for developing one's unique kochos. His [...]46_31May200510:23:18+0200swidler@NETVISION.NET.IL 20589 37 21_Re: yeshiva concerns?14_Malkie Swidler24_swidler@NETVISION.NET.IL31_Tue, 31 May 2005 10:28:17 +0200505_us-ascii >
> Caution is a good thing. Negatively stereotyping on the basis of a
> single story is not.

Chana--

That's exactly the thing that's bothering me. It's not a single story.
It's a handful of stories-- and just a tiny representation mentioned
here only in the last few weeks.
One kid has a knife held up to his throat, no charges are pressed.
One kid is exposed to pornography and other stuff that his mom doesn't
want to go into.
One kid is gang-raped. [...]46_31May200510:28:17+0200swidler@NETVISION.NET.IL 20627 134 21_Re: shiur reflections12_Caryn Lipson24_caryn_lipson@HOTMAIL.COM31_Tue, 31 May 2005 06:56:05 -0400353_iso-8859-1 " He then said 2000 years ago chazal degreed that all children go to school, not just the orphans who had no one to teach them, and that still applies. I asked why, and he said because of socialization, and the need to be able to successfully interact with the world career wise, and other reasons he said he had but didn't enumerate. " [...]46_31May200506:56:05-0400caryn_lipson@HOTMAIL.COM 20762 33 21_Re: yeshiva concerns?12_Caryn Lipson24_caryn_lipson@HOTMAIL.COM31_Tue, 31 May 2005 07:02:49 -0400605_iso-8859-1 > Let's not overgeneralize here. Yeshivas as a group do not condone or
> encourage evil, just as families as a group do not encourage abuse
> and neglect. Unfortunately, however, very bad things sometimes happen
> in both settings.
>
Not encouraging evil is a lot different than recognizing a problem for
what it truly is and taking responsibility for actively doing something to
prevent these things and fostering a healthy atmosphere. Turning the school
into a jail with metal detectors and cameras all over the place, etc. is not
what I have in mind, either. [...]46_31May200507:02:49-0400caryn_lipson@HOTMAIL.COM 20796 150 21_Re: shiur reflections13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Tue, 31 May 2005 04:51:02 -0700511_us-ascii I thought of asking that, but since everyone waiting behind me was listening to his response, I was concerned that he would say something seemingly definitive that would cause everyone (except me :)) to think homeschooling is assur. Have you noticed that challenging someone publicly can make them feel their ego is at stake? Not a good place to put someone. But I wouldn't hesitate for a second to ask if it was a private conversation. it really is a great way to get to the heart of the matter. [...]44_31May200504:51:02-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 20947 32 20_Re: yeshiva concerns12_Caryn Lipson24_caryn_lipson@HOTMAIL.COM31_Tue, 31 May 2005 08:00:36 -0400531_iso-8859-1 Just want to thank all for your responses to my situation with the Rabbi.
Although, at the time when ds left, I saw the sense in his not going back to
school, it did take a great deal of bitachon on our part as well. Having the
support and resource of this group is a big help. B"H, I think we're seeing
positive results now, but, yes, it would probably be near impossible for the
Rabbi, given his orientation, to understand where we are coming from and
that this is the best solution for my son. [...]46_31May200508:00:36-0400caryn_lipson@HOTMAIL.COM 20980 64 20_Re: yeshiva concerns13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Tue, 31 May 2005 05:16:59 -0700460_us-ascii At the beginning of May, I was having intense negative disapproval from someone regarding homeschooling. Intense, as in even the things I have done best with my kids have no value, only negative value. Like my son starting his own lawn mowing business and investing the money in stocks - I am using him as child labor instead of giving him an education. And so on. It must have seemed rational to this person, but I obviously was bothered by it. [...]44_31May200505:16:59-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 21045 37 51_Standing Strong in Keeping Your Son Home: For Caryn17_Chana Silberstein16_cs32@CORNELL.EDU31_Tue, 31 May 2005 08:08:03 -0400522_us-ascii Caryn, if it makes you feel any better:

In my experience, if your son would be in school, doing badly, and
challenging the system, the administration is often happy to boot out
the kid or tell you to find another school.. and if there were no
other school offering to take your kid, the dreaded HOMESCHOOLING
option would be suggested. You would be surprised how positive
administrators can be about the homeschooling option when it relieves
them from having to deal with a problem. [...]38_31May200508:08:03-0400cs32@CORNELL.EDU 21083 33 44_Re: Answer to Yael: Non -standard Curriculum10_Larry Beck35_Larry.Beck@GIS.LEICA-GEOSYSTEMS.COM31_Tue, 31 May 2005 08:57:45 -0400728_us-ascii Yael,

What about your program makes it strictly for girls?

Thanks,
Larry

-----Original Message-----
From: Torah-Centered Homeschooling [mailto:TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG] On
Behalf Of Yael Resnick
Sent: Monday, May 30, 2005 8:02 PM
Subject: Re: [TORCH-D] Answer to Yael: Non -standard Curriculum

...
- We are developing a program for girls (at least initially).
...

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by
Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org,
a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and
an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...]57_31May200508:57:45-0400Larry.Beck@GIS.LEICA-GEOSYSTEMS.COM 21117 66 20_Re: Yeshiva concerns0_17_RENALEVIN@AOL.COM29_Tue, 31 May 2005 09:01:26 EDT559_US-ASCII In a message dated 5/31/05 1:56:35 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
LISTSERV@SHAMASH.ORG writes:

> Rena's post is important in that in reminds us not to take it for
> granted that all yeshivos are safe...

Thank you, Chana. I have pondered long and hard about posting what I did. I
seem to have opened a Pandora's box!. If you read some of my other posts on
this thread, I deliberately did not indicate which yeshivas I had investigated,
but rather gave a list of (some) questions that we asked when evaluating
yeshivas. [...]37_31May200509:01:26EDTRENALEVIN@AOL.COM 21184 72 50_Re: yeshiva concerns? RE: Not all Yeshivas are bad17_Chana Silberstein16_cs32@CORNELL.EDU31_Tue, 31 May 2005 09:23:31 -0400376_us-ascii Russell, I couldn't have said it better.
We must go in with our EYES open.
We expect NEVER to see these kinds of things in Yeshivahs, just as no
one expects to encounter a ( FRUM!!) abusive spouse. When we are not
educated to the possibility, a lot of pain results for much longer
than necessary as we deny that something like this could be true. [...]38_31May200509:23:31-0400cs32@CORNELL.EDU 21257 114 38_Re: shiur reflections: Answer to Aviva17_Chana Silberstein16_cs32@CORNELL.EDU31_Tue, 31 May 2005 09:26:38 -0400644_us-ascii Russell, you reiterate an importnt point that cannot be stated often enough.
The decision to homeschool must be primarily about what is best for
the children involved.
Nevertheless, I am unashamedly enjoying all the parental fringe benefits :-).
Chana

>
>But if you carefully read the above the driving force is still the
>Biblical commandment
>TEACH THEM TO YOUR CHILDREN.
>
>If a parent feels that school is harmful for their child and he/she
>can do better then
>the parent is obligated to either home school (or set up another school).
>
>Conversely if the parent can't do a good [...]38_31May200509:26:38-0400cs32@CORNELL.EDU 21372 41 44_Re: Answer to Yael: Non -standard Curriculum12_Yael Resnick22_njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM31_Tue, 31 May 2005 09:38:01 -0400661_us-ascii Larry,

The local program is for girls, but there's nothing in particular
about the academic & enrichment aspects of the curriculum itself that
necessarily limits it to girls -- although at the junior high level
many people traditionally emphasize different specific texts for boys
or for girls. But for homeschoolers, that's an individual decision.

Also, as far as integrating the learning with the transformation of
adolescence... in our local program we will focus on "girl" issues as
they arise, if appropriate, but that should have no bearing on the
curriculum we may publish, since it will be skills-based. [...]44_31May200509:38:01-0400njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM 21414 75 21_Re: yeshiva concerns?17_Chana Silberstein16_cs32@CORNELL.EDU31_Tue, 31 May 2005 09:45:47 -0400598_us-ascii >>Caution is a good thing. Negatively stereotyping on the basis of a
>>single story is not.
>
>
>Chana--
>
>That's exactly the thing that's bothering me. It's not a single
>story. It's a handful of stories-- and just a tiny representation
>mentioned here only in the last few weeks.
>One kid has a knife held up to his throat, no charges are pressed.
>One kid is exposed to pornography and other stuff that his mom
>doesn't want to go into.
>One kid is gang-raped.
>
>When does it cross the line from one kid... one kid... one kid...
>and [...]38_31May200509:45:47-0400cs32@CORNELL.EDU 21490 29 20_Re: yeshiva concerns12_Yael Resnick22_njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM31_Tue, 31 May 2005 09:39:41 -0400578_us-ascii Thanks, Avivah. This quote was just what I needed to hear today, too,
as I work on refining our vision for our learning center!

Yael

>"Most all creative endeavors are somewhat unpredictable. They often
>seem ambiguous, hit-or-miss, trial and error. And unless people
>have a high tolerance for ambiguity and get their security from
>integrity to principles and inner values, they find it unnerving and
>unpleasant to be involved in highly creative enterprises. Their
>need for structure, certainty, and predictability is too high." [...]44_31May200509:39:41-0400njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM 21520 42 44_Re: Answer to Yael: Non -standard Curriculum12_Yael Resnick22_njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM31_Tue, 31 May 2005 09:48:37 -0400677_us-ascii Russell,

Very perceptive comment. In fact, our initial vision was for a new
school, which would be built around a holistic model. We also
considered a glorified homeschooling co-op, where we could experiment
with innovative ideas in a small group setting. Now we're
re-inventing our vision to accommodate the needs of particular local
families. For example, we have some "reluctant" homeschoolers in
town, who are homeschooling of necessity only, because of a lack of
other local options for certain grade levels. (These are the people
who formed the homeschool co-op with us this year.) They need/want a
very structured limudei [...]44_31May200509:48:37-0400njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM 21563 60 21_Re: yeshiva concerns?17_Chana Silberstein16_cs32@CORNELL.EDU31_Tue, 31 May 2005 09:55:07 -0400624_us-ascii > > Let's not overgeneralize here. Yeshivas as a group do not condone or
>> encourage evil, just as families as a group do not encourage abuse
>> and neglect. Unfortunately, however, very bad things sometimes happen
>> in both settings.
>>
> Not encouraging evil is a lot different than recognizing a problem for
>what it truly is and taking responsibility for actively doing something to
>prevent these things and fostering a healthy atmosphere. Turning the school
>into a jail with metal detectors and cameras all over the place, etc. is not
>what I have in mind, either.
>
[...]38_31May200509:55:07-0400cs32@CORNELL.EDU 21624 80 21_Re: shiur reflections14_Bill Bernstein27_billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET31_Tue, 31 May 2005 09:42:03 -0500608_ISO-8859-1 I dont understand this whole idea of "sending kids to school is what
Chazal instituted." A hundred years ago (and more) in Eastern Europe
this wasnt an issue. Most kids went to the cheder (often staffed by
incompetants and in some cases criminals, but thats another issue).
Really poor kids didnt go to school. And wealthier kids had private
tutors, i.e. homeschooled. There is a famous story about the Ridbaz:
his father was poor but wanted his son to have the best Torah
education. He fell behind on his tuition payments and the tutor
threatened to cut him off. The [...]49_31May200509:42:03-0500billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET 21705 75 17_What's in a name?17_Chana Silberstein16_cs32@CORNELL.EDU31_Tue, 31 May 2005 14:12:23 -0400615_us-ascii >I dont understand this whole idea of "sending kids to school is what
>Chazal instituted." A hundred years ago (and more) in Eastern
>Europe this wasnt an issue. Most kids went to the cheder (often
>staffed by incompetants and in some cases criminals, but thats
>another issue). Really poor kids didnt go to school. And wealthier
>kids had private tutors, i.e. homeschooled. There is a famous story
>about the Ridbaz: his father was poor but wanted his son to have the
>best Torah education. He fell behind on his tuition payments and
>the tutor threatened to cut him off. The [...]38_31May200514:12:23-0400cs32@CORNELL.EDU 21781 59 21_Re: yeshiva concerns?15_Merilyn Chesler17_merilyn@ABSOL.COM31_Tue, 31 May 2005 14:25:17 -0400448_- On Tue, 31 May 2005 09:45:47 -0400, Chana Silberstein wrote:
BS"D

I have to totally agree with Chana. Problems are creeping up everywhere and
there is no place to hide. I'd like to add that All Jews have to start
working together instead of fighting one another - blaming, finger pointing,
arguing, etc. Homeschooling shields us from only some of the problems out
there but we are not saints either. [...]39_31May200514:25:17-0400merilyn@ABSOL.COM 21841 26 16_yeshiva concerns15_Michelle Miller25_michelletamar@HOTMAIL.COM31_Tue, 31 May 2005 11:25:28 -0700469_- No, the problems are definitely not just in schools. My 10 year old had a
knife put to his neck at shul by a younger boy!! After not going there for
6 months, we decided we would go if the kids always stayed by our side.
Lovely, right?

Michelle

_________________________________________________________________
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http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/ [...]47_31May200511:25:28-0700michelletamar@HOTMAIL.COM 21868 46 20_Re: yeshiva concerns10_Larry Beck35_Larry.Beck@GIS.LEICA-GEOSYSTEMS.COM31_Tue, 31 May 2005 16:39:00 -0400617_us-ascii To everyone who has been telling about having knifes pulled on them or
their kids:

I am completely baffled! We are talking Pakuach Nefesh here folks! Not
only that but pulling a knife on someone is felony assault with a deadly
weapon. I don't understand why the police were not called? If someone
puts a knife to your neck you are legally and Halachally justified in
using any means necessary to protect yourself, including deadly force. I
once asked a shilah about calling the non-Jewish authorities. I was told
that calling the police for violent crimes do not require the [...]57_31May200516:39:00-0400Larry.Beck@GIS.LEICA-GEOSYSTEMS.COM