1 SHAMASH.ORG /usr/www/wwwhc/listserv/archives/torch-d April 2005 2 90 17_Re: Good Morning!11_Rivky Kahan22_rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM31_Thu, 31 Mar 2005 19:07:37 -0500555_- You dont know how many times i sit here and suddenly see Torch D messages
come into the list, or in my addiction to this computer, i get off, and then
come on a short time later, and there are the messages again, and i think
about you moderators! I have noticed how often the messages come in, and i
picture you ladies sitting infront of the computer, without pay, almost like
a full time job. Sometimes when messages dont get in for a while, i kind of
grin inside myself, and picture how the moderators must be washing their
[...]44_31Mar200519:07:37-0500rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM 93 44 22_Try loving those antis11_Rivky Kahan22_rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM31_Thu, 31 Mar 2005 22:29:37 -0500536_- This evening i got a phone call from a young man who wanted to know if i
would be willing to send my daughter to a school out of town. He was
concerned that my daughter would have a hard time finding a shiduch if she
continued to be homeschooled. He went on for a while talking about his views
and concerns.
I listened. while i'm somewhat disturbed, i'm not mad at the caller. Why
not? Where do i get such patience? Easy. The caller is my son. Calling from
his out of town yeshiva to discuss travel plans to [...]44_31Mar200522:29:37-0500rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM 138 49 32_Re: teen girl secular literature11_Rivky Kahan22_rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM31_Thu, 31 Mar 2005 22:33:17 -0500408_- I read some books my daughter brought home from the library. Two i liked
were "Cloning Miranda" -weird science fiction but i really liked it. Also
"The Face on the Milk Carton." by oh, what is the author's name??? Dont
remember the author of the first book either. Oh, here's another i really
liked called "Send One Angel Down" by, well the last name is Schwartz.
Beautiful book. Rivky [...]44_31Mar200522:33:17-0500rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM 188 76 17_sharing a success13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Thu, 31 Mar 2005 22:34:17 -0800550_us-ascii There are times when I feel my homeschooling ideals don't seem to be working the way I envisioned them. I start to get nervous, maybe I am not teaching them enough, maybe they will be horribly behind, etc. At times like that, I have to remind myself why I am doing what I am doing, and hold on to the philosophical reason that my homeschooling is based on - trusting the natural learning process, even when nothing seems to be happening. It is especially rewarding when you hold on long enough to see success; it is just so validating! [...]44_31Mar200522:34:17-0800avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 265 16 8_Re: Rena18_Mrs Moriah Chesler25_merilyn@CHESLER.ABSOL.COM30_Fri, 1 Apr 2005 02:06:53 -0500426_- Mazel Tov on your son's acceptance to 3 yeshivos!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by
Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org,
a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and
an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/

To unsubscribe email: TORCH-D-unsubscribe-request@SHAMASH.ORG46_1Apr200502:06:53-0500merilyn@CHESLER.ABSOL.COM 282 37 26_Re: Try loving those antis18_Mrs Moriah Chesler25_merilyn@CHESLER.ABSOL.COM30_Fri, 1 Apr 2005 02:15:23 -0500576_- Love your post on this one.

You gave very good advice, in fact I say it's excellent.
We should all strive to see every Jew in the most positive light
possible, to promote *peace* within ourselves, and within Klal Yisrael.

Kol Hakavod!

Good Shabbos,
Moriah

>
>I know many of you will probably reply that my son had a license to talk to
>me this way, as my son, and someone who has a right to be concerned about
>his sister, etc, and that other people who are not related dont have this
>right etc. True enough. But if we [...]46_1Apr200502:15:23-0500merilyn@CHESLER.ABSOL.COM 320 23 21_Re: sharing a success18_Mrs Moriah Chesler25_merilyn@CHESLER.ABSOL.COM30_Fri, 1 Apr 2005 02:24:00 -0500603_- Avivah,

I'd like your advice on this one. How long do you usually wait for a child to show interest? What if the child never shows interest, and even though the desire is there at some point in the future, but the chance to learn something well
has past?

Thanks,
Moriah

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by
Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org,
a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and
an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...]46_1Apr200502:24:00-0500merilyn@CHESLER.ABSOL.COM 344 65 21_Re: sharing a success15_Alison Jacobson23_alisonziskind@YAHOO.COM31_Thu, 31 Mar 2005 23:42:53 -0800599_us-ascii Avivah,

You describe what is most commonly known as
perspective! Ain't it grand? :)

I think all of us as parents go through this - from
our babies' earliest moments to our grownup childrens'
endeavors. I remember when my son was about 14
months. He loved to climb on my coffee table and
dance. Nervous mother that I was, I was constantly
freaked he would fall and hurt himself. A friend of
mine, the mother of 5, now 6, simply said, "Is your
floor carpeted? Yes? You're fine." I've always used
that vignette as a larger example of what happens [...]45_31Mar200523:42:53-0800alisonziskind@YAHOO.COM 410 50 32_Re: motivators / Rivky's dilemma11_Rivky Kahan22_rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM30_Fri, 1 Apr 2005 07:18:44 -0500645_- Yes, that is what i will do-check with a doctor. That will get my thinking
going in a realistic direction. Rivky

>From: S Sloman
>Reply-To: Torah-Centered Homeschooling
>To: TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG
>Subject: Re: [TORCH-D] motivators / Rivky's dilemma
>Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 09:45:06 -0500
>
>I just want to second the comments of those who suggested you check with
>a doctor to see what the real risk would be of his fasting for one day
>(and in this case, not even a whole day, since it is a daytime fast). I
>wouldn't expect it to be too terrible, especially [...]43_1Apr200507:18:44-0500rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM 461 55 25_Re: What To Tell An Anti?11_Rivky Kahan22_rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM30_Fri, 1 Apr 2005 07:28:50 -0500658_- Yes, but what will you say when the neighbor says "Yes, it bothers me.
Please DO something about it."?
Mmmm-let's think. Rivky

>From: "malkiadler@juno.com"
>Reply-To: Torah-Centered Homeschooling
>To: TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG
>Subject: Re: [TORCH-D] What To Tell An Anti?
>Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 18:34:43 GMT
>
>The idea of responding like this"I can see that this really bothers you..."
>is perfect. In fact, I plan on using this technique as soon as I can to my
>neighbors who asked me to clean up my yard the other day and I was so
>bothered that they had this- what I [...]43_1Apr200507:28:50-0500rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM 517 146 32_Re: motivators / Rivky's dilemma11_Rivky Kahan22_rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM30_Fri, 1 Apr 2005 07:25:08 -0500300_- Sounds like a good idea. Since i dont know much about the subject myself, it
would be a good education for both of us.
Rivky-who still cant get over how in the U.S, about 50 people got
arrested for trying to bring water to a starving woman. Oh, dont get me
started on this one!!!! [...]43_1Apr200507:25:08-0500rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM 664 53 14_feeling "frum"15_Nicole Brackman18_drnb1969@YAHOO.COM30_Fri, 1 Apr 2005 05:39:08 -0800553_us-ascii Susan, I have to laugh because the things you say you aspire to (living a life of Torah, mitzvos, etc.) is what I mean by "feeling frum." I don't have much of a clue about things like what gifts engaged couples' families have to give each other, or for that matter, much about how the whole shidduchim process works at all (except insofar as people have told me we'll be hopeless for a variety of reasons...I'm hoping that there are other slightly "wacko" families like mine by the time we get to that stage). I'm not even at the "plastic [...]39_1Apr200505:39:08-0800drnb1969@YAHOO.COM 718 499 18_Re: feeling "frum"8_S Sloman18_ssloman@NETLAB.COM30_Fri, 1 Apr 2005 10:32:56 -0500706_us-ascii Wow-where did you scrape up a group of friends like that! Baruch
Hashem! Very beautiful!

But I'm not doing anything to my clocks. I never do. Because I live in
Indiana!

Shoshana Sloman
torch-d listowner

-----Original Message-----
From: Torah-Centered Homeschooling [mailto:TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG] On
Behalf Of Nicole Brackman
Sent: Friday, April 01, 2005 8:39 AM
To: TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG
Subject: [TORCH-D] feeling "frum"

Susan, I have to laugh because the things you say you aspire to (living
a life of Torah, mitzvos, etc.) is what I mean by "feeling frum." I
don't have much of a clue about things like what gifts engaged couples'
[...]39_1Apr200510:32:56-0500ssloman@NETLAB.COM 1218 37 25_Re: What To Tell An Anti?8_S Sloman18_ssloman@NETLAB.COM30_Fri, 1 Apr 2005 10:35:20 -0500501_us-ascii It was obvious from the way our neighbor talked that he was bothered
about the dead possum under our deck. What we did was to drag it out of
there (YUCK) and dispose of it.

Gut Shabbos!

Shoshana Sloman
Torch-d listowner

-----Original Message-----
From: Torah-Centered Homeschooling [mailto:TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG] On
Behalf Of Rivky Kahan
Sent: Friday, April 01, 2005 7:29 AM
To: TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG
Subject: Re: [TORCH-D] What To Tell An Anti? [...]39_1Apr200510:35:20-0500ssloman@NETLAB.COM 1256 24 25_Re: What To Tell An Anti?19_malkiadler@juno.com19_malkiadler@JUNO.COM28_Fri, 1 Apr 2005 17:33:39 GMT400_- Rivky, I guess I would say , well if it bothers you that much you are welcome to clean it up!! not really. So I would say that since there is not a whole lot they can do they should realize that we have different ideas of what is considered an acceptable looking lawn and since it is my lawn they'll just have to grin and bear it! Any other good ideas what to say to perfectionist type folks? [...]38_1Apr200517:33:39GMTmalkiadler@JUNO.COM 1281 37 32_Taking a turn to share a success11_Rivky Kahan22_rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM30_Fri, 1 Apr 2005 14:53:08 -0500634_- Okay, now it's my turn to share a success. I'm a very proud homeschooling
mommy today. ahhhm-stepping up on the podium here...
My daughter, who was pulled from school after first grade, who is now 15
years old, and has CAPD-Central Auditory Processing Disorder, just won the
Creative Communication's Young Writers Contest-Spring 2005. Her essay will
be published in the Spring 2005 anthology What Is Important To Me. They have
also put her essay into the final competition. This is the first time she
has entered a contest.
This is a tremendous success for her, especially given her challenges, and
[...]43_1Apr200514:53:08-0500rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM 1319 881 25_TORCH-D MONTHLY REMINDERS8_S Sloman18_ssloman@NETLAB.COM30_Sat, 2 Apr 2005 21:30:09 -0500629_US-ASCII Please take a few minutes to read through these reminders of TorCH-d
policies, procedures, and guidelines, which are sent out on a monthly
basis. If you have any problems with the list, please let me know. If
you are enjoying the list, please let others know.

1. WHO WE ARE

TorCH-d is devoted to discussion of topics related to Torah-centered
homeschooling. This can include sharing resources for homeschooling
curricula, techniques, and philosophies. Thoughts, ideas, experiences,
and opinions are also appropriate, as long as they are related to
religious Jewish homeschooling. [...]39_2Apr200521:30:09-0500ssloman@NETLAB.COM 2201 409 40_TORCH-D Loshon Hara and Privacy Policies8_S Sloman18_ssloman@NETLAB.COM30_Sat, 2 Apr 2005 21:50:41 -0500470_US-ASCII Based on consultation with my Rav, there are a few things I'd like to
clarify and emphasize. In the future they will be included with the
regular monthly reminders.

LOSHON HARA GUIDELINES:

Because one of the functions of this list is to provide support to
people who have had unpleasant experiences with schools, or unfavorable
reactions to their choice to homeschool, we may discuss the negative
behavior of others toward us. [...]39_2Apr200521:50:41-0500ssloman@NETLAB.COM 2611 26 8_Olomeinu16_ZagorskyGoldberg28_zagorskygoldberg@VERIZON.NET30_Fri, 1 Apr 2005 16:58:58 -0500399_iso-8859-1 Just want to share the nice news that Olomeinu magazine put my kids'
write-up about their chesed-based birthday party in the Chesed Column of the
new issue. They even put in a picture of all the girls at the party (with
their names!). My kids are kvelling (and so am I!).

Shabbat Shalom,

Ellen in Boston
in our fifth year of homeschooling three great girls [...]49_1Apr200516:58:58-0500zagorskygoldberg@VERIZON.NET 2638 79 36_Re: Taking a turn to share a success11_Rivky Kahan22_rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM30_Sat, 2 Apr 2005 20:48:15 -0500565_- Well here i am responding to my own message, but i have to make a
correction. I had said that she won this essay contest. Actually, that was
the wrong word to use. Her essay was selected to be published in this
anthology, along with others which were selected. This oganization doesn't
publish everyones essays but they dont want to be so selective that it is
frustrating. They want it to be an honor, but not frustrating. They publish
about 45% of their submissions, so they say on their website. So she was in
the 45%. This is still a [...]43_2Apr200520:48:15-0500rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM 2718 63 26_Re: Try loving those antis11_Rivky Kahan22_rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM30_Sat, 2 Apr 2005 20:52:05 -0500671_- Thanks. I'm glad you like the idea. For now, though, it is pretty much ONLY
in my head-unfortunately, i dont feel anywhere near internalizing this idea.
But maybe the fact that i was able to THINK of it, means theres some hope?
Rivky

>From: Mrs Moriah Chesler
>Reply-To: Torah-Centered Homeschooling
>To: TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG
>Subject: Re: [TORCH-D] Try loving those antis
>Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 02:15:23 -0500
>
>Love your post on this one.
>
>You gave very good advice, in fact I say it's excellent.
>We should all strive to see every Jew in the most positive light
[...]43_2Apr200520:52:05-0500rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM 2782 16 36_Re: Taking a turn to share a success18_Mrs Moriah Chesler25_merilyn@CHESLER.ABSOL.COM30_Sat, 2 Apr 2005 21:45:12 -0500415_- Mazel Tov, Rivky and to your daughter!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by
Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org,
a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and
an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/

To unsubscribe email: TORCH-D-unsubscribe-request@SHAMASH.ORG46_2Apr200521:45:12-0500merilyn@CHESLER.ABSOL.COM 2799 71 12_Perspective?0_17_RENALEVIN@AOL.COM28_Sat, 2 Apr 2005 21:56:42 EST520_US-ASCII In a message dated 4/2/05 1:55:02 AM Eastern Standard Time,
LISTSERV@SHAMASH.ORG writes:

> He loved to climb on my coffee table and
> dance.

At least you could watch him dance on the coffee table while you had a life.
At that age, my (now big) guy liked to stand on the washing machine (we had a
stackable) hang onto the dryer and "dance" while the machine did the spin
cycle! I had to hold him there several times a day for many minutes at a time
while he did his "thing". [...]36_2Apr200521:56:42ESTRENALEVIN@AOL.COM 2871 90 23_what to say to an anti?0_17_RENALEVIN@AOL.COM28_Sat, 2 Apr 2005 21:59:58 EST499_US-ASCII In a message dated 4/2/05 1:55:02 AM Eastern Standard Time,
LISTSERV@SHAMASH.ORG writes:

>
> Yes, but what will you say when the neighbor says "Yes, it bothers me.
> Please DO something about it."?
> Mmmm-let's think

Who owns the problem? If it bothers my neighbor, why is it MY problem to do
something about it? I am not in charge of what is going on between someone's
ears, nor am I responsible for "fixing" what is bothering them. That is a
trap. [...]36_2Apr200521:59:58ESTRENALEVIN@AOL.COM 2962 59 36_Re: Taking a turn to share a success15_Michelle Miller25_michelletamar@HOTMAIL.COM30_Sat, 2 Apr 2005 19:29:16 -0700737_- Mazel Tov Rivky:)

Michelle

>From: Rivky Kahan
>Reply-To: Torah-Centered Homeschooling
>To: TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG
>Subject: [TORCH-D] Taking a turn to share a success
>Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 14:53:08 -0500
>
>Okay, now it's my turn to share a success. I'm a very proud homeschooling
>mommy today. ahhhm-stepping up on the podium here...
>My daughter, who was pulled from school after first grade, who is now 15
>years old, and has CAPD-Central Auditory Processing Disorder, just won the
>Creative Communication's Young Writers Contest-Spring 2005. Her essay will
>be published in the Spring 2005 anthology What Is Important To Me. They
[...]46_2Apr200519:29:16-0700michelletamar@HOTMAIL.COM 3022 42 36_Re: rivky's daughter's success story0_17_RENALEVIN@AOL.COM28_Sat, 2 Apr 2005 22:03:41 EST454_US-ASCII Mazel Tov Rivky, lots of nachas. You go girl!

Rena in Baltimore

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by
Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org,
a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and
an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/

To unsubscribe email: TORCH-D-unsubscribe-request@SHAMASH.ORG36_2Apr200522:03:41ESTRENALEVIN@AOL.COM 3065 212 44_Re: TORCH-D Loshon Hara and Privacy Policies17_Chana Silberstein16_cs32@CORNELL.EDU30_Sat, 2 Apr 2005 22:54:27 -0500645_us-ascii Kudos, Shoshana.
These are the kinds of policies that make me proud to be a member of this list.
No flaming, no mean spiritedness, no violation of trust.
Thank you for developing these guidelines.
Chana

>Based on consultation with my Rav, there are a few things I'd like
>to clarify and emphasize. In the future they will be included with
>the regular monthly reminders.
>
>
>
>LOSHON HARA GUIDELINES:
>
>
>
>Because one of the functions of this list is to provide support to
>people who have had unpleasant experiences with schools, or
>unfavorable reactions to their choice [...]37_2Apr200522:54:27-0500cs32@CORNELL.EDU 3278 101 21_Re: sharing a success13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM30_Sat, 2 Apr 2005 21:54:46 -0800344_us-ascii This is a really good question. It is hard to answer because the answer depends so much on you and your child, but I will try. I spent a long time trying to find balance between letting my child explore their interests on their own while not becoming unmindful of them, and guiding them without overly controlling the experience. [...]43_2Apr200521:54:46-0800avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 3380 65 36_Re: Taking a turn to share a success12_Caryn Lipson24_caryn_lipson@HOTMAIL.COM30_Sun, 3 Apr 2005 09:55:08 -0400347_iso-8859-1 What is Central Auditory Processing Disorder and how does it affect your
daughter? This was brought to my attention regarding my daughter a while
back but I'm not sure what, if any, affect it has on her, or if the affect
is more pronounced in a (ir)regular school situation. Is there anything you
did to overcome this? [...]45_3Apr200509:55:08-0400caryn_lipson@HOTMAIL.COM 3446 25 24_Bas mitzvah parties,etc.19_malkiadler@juno.com19_malkiadler@JUNO.COM28_Sun, 3 Apr 2005 14:10:34 GMT538_- My daughter who is in 6th grade has been left out of most of her old classmates' parties this year and although we both knew that this would likely happen(out of sight out of mind), it has been hard for her to deal with. She has been included in the few friends that she gets together with regularly, so that makes it a bit easier but I see that as they get older, many activities are school based and all her friends have school chagigas(come chanuka and purim) and other social activities that she can't attend. In fact, this is [...]38_3Apr200514:10:34GMTmalkiadler@JUNO.COM 3472 547 21_Re: sharing a success12_Caryn Lipson24_caryn_lipson@HOTMAIL.COM30_Sun, 3 Apr 2005 10:30:22 -0400579_iso-8859-1 This is really good to hear, because suddenly having started unschooling a 9th and 6th grader, I have not prepared anything for them in advance. My son's self-motivated with interests of his own, and I think my daughter, who finished "school" at the end of February is still in the vacation period. I was at a Chasuna last week where I met people from my old neighborhood and when I told them we were homeschooling in response to the expected questions, the expectation was having brought the classroom to the home. In general it was a Kol Ha'Kovod response, but [...]45_3Apr200510:30:22-0400caryn_lipson@HOTMAIL.COM 4020 94 26_Re: pushing versus waiting0_17_RENALEVIN@AOL.COM28_Sun, 3 Apr 2005 10:55:24 EDT605_US-ASCII In a message dated 4/3/05 2:56:54 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
LISTSERV@SHAMASH.ORG writes:

> He is internalizing his learning - should I worry that his technical skills
> are weaker than the average kid his age, if he enjoys his learning and finds
> it
> meaningful (something that unfortunately most kids that may have better
> skills don't feel)? I have full confidence that when he is a little older, he
> will have a solid information base that will serve him well in his learning,
> and he will have the maturity, desire, and cognitive ability to further
> [...]36_3Apr200510:55:24EDTRENALEVIN@AOL.COM 4115 58 21_Re: sharing a success13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM30_Sun, 3 Apr 2005 13:29:44 -0700611_us-ascii You can present the aspects of what you are doing that someone can relate to and appreciate, without going into exactly how you go about your day. For example, you can talk about how they have an individualized learning environment, you are encouraging them to follow their interests and develop competencies, etc. People who know even a little about alternative education realize that this is what the best schools in the country try to incorporate, and can appreciate your 'cutting edge' approach. When you are starting out isn't usually the best time to talk about the lack of recognizable (to [...]43_3Apr200513:29:44-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 4174 72 21_Re: sharing a success18_Mrs Moriah Chesler25_merilyn@CHESLER.ABSOL.COM30_Sun, 3 Apr 2005 17:08:42 -0400640_us-ascii Avivah,

Thank you for sharing your perspective and answering in such detail (I love
every word) although I don't believe my questions have been directly
answered. But suffice to say, you have an active involvement in what you
would like your children to learn, and your children do show
initiative at some point in time before B. Mitzvah. I guess showing an
interest doesn't indicate that the interest will remain, but if I believe
correctly, you will try different ways of helping them maintain their love
of learning. Therefore, it's an active involvement on your part, and not
merely letting [...]46_3Apr200517:08:42-0400merilyn@CHESLER.ABSOL.COM 4247 91 26_Re: pushing versus waiting18_Benjamin H Dickman19_bdickman@LUCENT.COM30_Sun, 3 Apr 2005 18:28:40 -0400711_us-ascii bs'd
I'm for teaching the parsha with Onkelos, which is an excellent
introduction to Aramaic and a fulfillment of "Sh'nayim Miqra
v'echad Targum" (reviewing the parsha twice and the Targum once
for each weekly parsha; some people use targum Onkelos, some
use Rashi, some use other perushim).

At age ten, learn the mishnayoth with a commentary. Kahati
is excellent, assuming Hebrew language skills are there.
There are English language translations and commentaries,
but they won't be in-depth. The classical commentary
is "the Rav" in the pre-Kahati publications. Go for comprehension
of the issues, not rote memorization. We're doing conceptual
foundation [...]40_3Apr200518:28:40-0400bdickman@LUCENT.COM 4339 157 36_Re: Taking a turn to share a success11_Rivky Kahan22_rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM30_Sun, 3 Apr 2005 19:01:23 -0400580_- CAPD means that something goes wrong when the brain interprets the sounds
that it hears. It is different than a hearing impairment. In a hearing
impairment, the sound, for whatever reason, doesnt travel to the brain in
the first place-something goes wrong inside the ears, enroute to the brain,
because of nerve damage or whatever. In CAPD, the hearing can be just fine.
It is what happens to the sounds once it gets to the brain. There are some
things the brain needs to do with the sounds. For one thing, and i think
this is the most common symptom, [...]43_3Apr200519:01:23-0400rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM 4497 59 28_Re: Bas mitzvah parties,etc.10_Larry Beck35_Larry.Beck@GIS.LEICA-GEOSYSTEMS.COM30_Sun, 3 Apr 2005 20:57:34 -0400562_iso-8859-1 Malki,

We have been homeschooling for 11 years now. We have four boys. We are the only "real" homeschoolers in the main orthodox neighborhood in Atlanta. Meaning: there are people that have homeschooled one or two children for a year or two but no one else does all their kids permanently. When we first pulled them out of the day school we were black balled by many in the community because they thought we were hurting the school or that we weren't Frum enough. Our oldest at the time was in third grade. The boys had a few friends that [...]56_3Apr200520:57:34-0400Larry.Beck@GIS.LEICA-GEOSYSTEMS.COM 4557 144 43_Re: parental support, unschooling, and more13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM30_Sun, 3 Apr 2005 20:35:54 -0700309_us-ascii I was hoping you would clarify exactly what you wanted to know that I didn't answer- I sensed an assumption behind your initial questions that I wasn't sure I was accurately identifying and didn't feel I was addressing. I'll try again, though there is a big likelihood that I will be redundant. [...]43_3Apr200520:35:54-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 4702 43 36_Re: Taking a turn to share a success17_No Name Available19_BurnesFamily@CS.COM28_Sun, 3 Apr 2005 23:17:10 EDT515_US-ASCII Hi, I just started homeschooling my children. My 11 year old son has C.A.P.D.
He was diagnosed with it when he was in 2nd grade. I've never heard of
Fastforward. What is it?
Tzirel Leah

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by
Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org,
a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and
an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...]38_3Apr200523:17:10EDTBurnesFamily@CS.COM 4746 96 28_Re: Bas mitzvah parties,etc.13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM30_Sun, 3 Apr 2005 21:04:18 -0700574_us-ascii Malki,

I sometimes think about how overrated social group activities are. This bas mitzva scenario reminds me of kids not wanting to homeschool because they will miss the prom. I remember the bas mitzva parties, and it wasn't an important time in my life. They were just birthday parties, mostly of girls that I wasn't really close to but got invited to just because I was in the class. I suppose that's why it has no long term emotional significance or nostalgia for me. At the same time, it is really an issue of long term perspective, and kids don't [...]43_3Apr200521:04:18-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 4843 64 16_pesach web sites14_Laya B Jackson17_tolife18@JUNO.COM30_Mon, 4 Apr 2005 09:16:54 +0200625_us-ascii this from another list I'm on... chag kasher v' sameach (a kosher and
happy holiday to you!)
Laya, at home in Tzfat!!!

This year Passover begins on Saturday night, April 23, 2005.

The J Site - Jewish Education and Entertainment
http://www.j.co.il

has several entertaining features for Passover:

Passover Trivia
In what Hebrew month is Passover celebrated ?
Why do we eat matzah during Passover ?
How old was Moshe's mother when she gave birth to Moshe ?
How long did the Jews' exile in Egypt last ?
Where did the Jews live in Egypt ?
How many days did the [...]38_4Apr200509:16:54+0200tolife18@JUNO.COM 4908 146 8_Re: CAPD12_Caryn Lipson24_caryn_lipson@HOTMAIL.COM30_Mon, 4 Apr 2005 07:51:39 -0400612_iso-8859-1 Thanks Rivky for explaining what CAPD is.
What you described doesn't sound like my daughter. I think she was getting
distracted in class - not paying attention and it was suggested that the
auditory processing difficulty may be why she hasn't picked up the Hebrew
language well, but I'm not sure now that this is necessarily the
explanation. (They did the whole IEP thing, which is how I came up with
this.) B"H everything else seems to be fine and she's no longer in a school
environment. Distraction could have been boredom, the language issue could
be related to their [...]45_4Apr200507:51:39-0400caryn_lipson@HOTMAIL.COM 5055 25 12_My questions18_Mrs Moriah Chesler25_merilyn@CHESLER.ABSOL.COM30_Mon, 4 Apr 2005 10:16:09 -0400538_- >
>I hope you feel I have more directly answered your points this time! :)
>
>Avivah
>

YES! BEAUTIFULLY, AS USUAL.

THANK YOU,
MORIAH

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by
Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org,
a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and
an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/

To unsubscribe email: TORCH-D-unsubscribe-request@SHAMASH.ORG46_4Apr200510:16:09-0400merilyn@CHESLER.ABSOL.COM 5081 152 66_If you wait till your kids are interested, will you miss the boat?17_Chana Silberstein16_cs32@CORNELL.EDU30_Mon, 4 Apr 2005 11:47:07 -0400601_us-ascii Moriah, you bring up an important issue, and a common fear.

Certain kinds of learning DO seem to come more naturally to the young.
I think you make a very strong case for exposing a child to an
environment rich in these things: in terms of reading and writing, an
environment with many books, much language play, much exposure to
letters; in terms of language, an ability to hear and speak the
languages we want them exposed to, in terms of Torah, hearing the
words of Torah, seeing models of Torah being learned and loved.
Children are deeply affected, even [...]37_4Apr200511:47:07-0400cs32@CORNELL.EDU 5234 111 22_Explaining Fastforword11_Rivky Kahan22_rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM30_Mon, 4 Apr 2005 14:45:12 -0400571_- I'm not sure exactly how to explain what Fastforword IS exactly. I'll just
share my own experience, and when you read it, i think you'll get a picture.
We did the Fastforword program with the audiologist. We were given this
booklet and a CD-maybe more than one CD-who remembers. I also think we were
given a choice to work on it from home, or to come into her office and have
her work on it under the audiologists supervision and direction. I think
doing in her office would have been more expensive, and since she is so
cooperative, we chose [...]43_4Apr200514:45:12-0400rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM 5346 223 8_Re: CAPD11_Rivky Kahan22_rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM30_Mon, 4 Apr 2005 15:00:47 -0400538_- Well, you're the mother, and chances are you are right, but i would be
uncomfortable about your not going for testing based on MY explination of
what it is. I am not an expert on the list of all possible symptoms, etc. I
would hate to think you didnt go for testing because Rivky sent the wrong
kind of email. :-(
It is up to you if you want to persue (sp) this, of course. Believe me, i
know that we cant possibly go after every suggestion people make to us,
because there isnt enough time and energy, and we [...]43_4Apr200515:00:47-0400rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM 5570 26 26_Re: Explaining Fastforword11_Rivky Kahan22_rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM30_Mon, 4 Apr 2005 18:59:58 -0400439_- I cant believe i did this. At the end of the last post on this i wrote, i
said that i would go and find a link to a site on FF and then i forgot about
it. Here is there website. www.scilearn.com

Rivky

_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE!
http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ [...]43_4Apr200518:59:58-0400rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM 5597 88 28_Re: Bas mitzvah parties,etc.11_Rivky Kahan22_rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM30_Mon, 4 Apr 2005 20:01:09 -0400563_- Malki, i had been thinking about this post, and felt like i should respond,
though i dont know how sure i feel about anything i'm about to say. I'm not
even 100% sure exactly WHAT i will say. Just thinking outloud for whatever
it may be worth.
Alot of the "conventional anti" folks think that school is very important
for socialization. I am not sure that kids need to be around 30 kid their
own age every day in order to develop apropriate social skills. My feeling
is that what kids need depend on each individual child. I dont know [...]43_4Apr200520:01:09-0400rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM 5686 107 18_Re: feeling "frum"11_Susan Lapin20_suelap@EARTHLINK.NET30_Mon, 4 Apr 2005 18:14:42 -0700409_iso-8859-1 Nicole,

Sounds like you've found your place and I share with you what you see as
important. I think I simply have a reflex reaction to the word "frum", the
same way studies show that if teachers had a negative experience with
someone of the same name to a student in their class, they unconsciously
tend to dislike the child. I'll have to watch out for my reflex reactions. [...]41_4Apr200518:14:42-0700suelap@EARTHLINK.NET 5794 56 26_Re: Explaining Fastforword17_No Name Available19_BurnesFamily@CS.COM28_Tue, 5 Apr 2005 00:43:50 EDT594_US-ASCII Thank you, I checked out the website. I don't think their products will help
me now. They seemed to be mostly focusing on learning to read. He learned to
read several years ago and is now a book worm.
The main issue we now have is with writing. (The english composition
sort, not handwriting, although that is an issue too. ) He hates writing
anything longer then sentences. Paragraphs, essays, bookreports bring him nearly to
tears. As I understand it, this is a common problem for kids with CAPD. Which
is why I'm so impressed about what your daughter did. [...]38_5Apr200500:43:50EDTBurnesFamily@CS.COM 5851 274 8_Re: CAPD12_Caryn Lipson24_caryn_lipson@HOTMAIL.COM30_Tue, 5 Apr 2005 07:18:16 -0400605_iso-8859-1 Thanks so much for taking the time to write. I appreciate your suggestion
and will look around further for information.

I guess I really haven't felt there was an issue lately and until you
mentioned it hadn't thought about it for quite a while. If she was having
major difficulties... but I'm not sure that for something that may (or may
not?) be there and probably mild(?) it's worth going through all that
testing (and expense) even if it is painless and non-invasive. And I now
know that what happens in school is not necessarily an indication of a
problem [...]45_5Apr200507:18:16-0400caryn_lipson@HOTMAIL.COM 6126 101 5_CAPD?0_17_RENALEVIN@AOL.COM28_Tue, 5 Apr 2005 10:39:38 EDT660_US-ASCII Rivky:
Your explanations of CAPD and the FastForward therapy have been very helpful
and very interesting.

I have been struggling with one of my kids having trouble with Hebrew
Reading. This child just cannot seem to discriminate between certain sounds, like
AH, EH and AY. needless to say, hebrew reading is just not happening!

This kid does not seem to have any problem in speech/articulation, English
reading/writing (spelling is good), reading out loud is fine, articulation fine,
attention fine, math fine, in other words, to my mind, every thing else seems
fine (child is social, happy, does well in group [...]36_5Apr200510:39:38EDTRENALEVIN@AOL.COM 6228 367 8_Re: CAPD11_Rivky Kahan22_rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM30_Tue, 5 Apr 2005 19:29:36 -0400542_- I agree with you that many children dont have a "problem" regardless of what
the school would like to say. We all know how some even very smart kids, are
just not going to be ready to read until much after the typical age that
reading is taught in school. I'm afraid many of these kids are labeled all
kinds of things because they stil cant read at age 6 or 7. Then they are
given tutoring, and when the reading finally clicks, the tutor gets the
credit. Ha ha. This kid would have started reading then anyway. Or at [...]43_5Apr200519:29:36-0400rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM 6596 81 9_Re: CAPD?11_Rivky Kahan22_rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM30_Tue, 5 Apr 2005 20:30:43 -0400563_- >From: RENALEVIN@AOL.COM
>Reply-To: Torah-Centered Homeschooling
>To: TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG
>Subject: [TORCH-D] CAPD?
>Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 10:39:38 EDT
>
>Rivky:
>Your explanations of CAPD and the FastForward therapy have been very
>helpful
>and very interesting.
>
>I have been struggling with one of my kids having trouble with Hebrew
>Reading. This child just cannot seem to discriminate between certain
>sounds, like
>AH, EH and AY. needless to say, hebrew reading is just not happening! [...]43_5Apr200520:30:43-0400rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM 6678 62 26_Re: Explaining Fastforword11_Rivky Kahan22_rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM30_Tue, 5 Apr 2005 20:51:47 -0400589_- FastForWord is not just about learning to read. Its about helping to reduce
the symptoms of CAPD. I didnt know that website gave the impression that it
was just for reading- i didnt look into that website so carefuly. I did look
and was happy to find another website that seemed very good and gave a list
of therapies, much of which i have never heard of, and may want to look into
for my own daughter. Please see
http://pages.cthome.net/cbristol/capd-pr2.html
Hope i typed all that right. If you cant get in, i'll try writing that
again.
How i helped my [...]43_5Apr200520:51:47-0400rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM 6741 56 26_Re: Explaining Fastforword11_Rivky Kahan22_rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM30_Tue, 5 Apr 2005 22:02:23 -0400719_- Oh silly me. The link on the last website i gave just goes to the old
website i gave :-(
I finally found something that explains that Fastforword is not just for
reading, but is to help reduce symptoms of CAPD in general.
http://www.indy-hearing.com/fastforword.cfm

>From: No Name Available
>Reply-To: Torah-Centered Homeschooling
>To: TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG
>Subject: Re: [TORCH-D] Explaining Fastforword
>Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 00:43:50 EDT
>
>Thank you, I checked out the website. I don't think their products will
>help
>me now. They seemed to be mostly focusing on learning to read. He learned
>to
>read several years [...]43_5Apr200522:02:23-0400rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM 6798 75 21_Re: sharing a success11_Susan Lapin20_suelap@EARTHLINK.NET30_Tue, 5 Apr 2005 19:06:33 -0700575_iso-8859-1 Rivky, Rena and Avivah,

Three success stories at once! What an uplifting group of e-mails to read.
You all have reason to not only be proud of your kids, but to pat yourselves
on the back. Thank you for sharing your good news.

Susan

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by
Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org,
a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and
an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...]41_5Apr200519:06:33-0700suelap@EARTHLINK.NET 6874 36 8_Re: CAPD12_Caryn Lipson24_caryn_lipson@HOTMAIL.COM30_Wed, 6 Apr 2005 07:21:04 -0400588_iso-8859-1 > Out of curiousity, why exactly did the school feel she has a problem with
> her auditory processing?
>
> Rivky

We tested her when we tested my son, who among other things, was probably
very bored in class and needed to move around more than other children who
could sit still for many hours on end! The auditory processing difficulty
was one of those things that they "picked up" on. As I said, they attributed
her distraction to this but this past 1/2 year that she was in school she
was doing better than previously without really doing [...]45_6Apr200507:21:04-0400caryn_lipson@HOTMAIL.COM 6911 45 24_Rod &Staff, Miquon Math?15_Nicole Brackman18_drnb1969@YAHOO.COM30_Wed, 6 Apr 2005 05:30:03 -0700374_us-ascii Hi all!

I've been offered some Rod & Staff and Miquon Math Series books very inexpensively (for grades 1 & 2). Anyone have any experience or opinions about these? I'm pretty clueless, and my daughter will only be in kindergarten next year, but they're a pretty good deal so if it's a great series I would want to get them while I can. Thanks!
Nicole [...]39_6Apr200505:30:03-0700drnb1969@YAHOO.COM 6957 89 15_sign up answers13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM30_Wed, 6 Apr 2005 06:54:04 -0700391_us-ascii If you have a friend interested in signing up to the list, she can do that in the following way:

Access the Shamash subscriber page at this link:

http://listserv.shamash.org/cgi-bin/wa?REPORT&z=3

She will either need to set up a password with Shamash, or log in, if a password has already been set up.

To set up a password click on "Get a password" [...]43_6Apr200506:54:04-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 7047 73 28_Re: Rod &Staff, Miquon Math?13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM30_Wed, 6 Apr 2005 06:57:35 -0700430_us-ascii Rod and Staff is a Christian curriculum - I found out when I purchased a writing workbook, and some of the phrases to copy were New Testament verses.

As far as Miquon, lots of people like this. It's worth it to buy ahead if you think you will use them and they will be helpful to your child. But as I say to my kids, something is only a good buy if you need it - a good price alone does not a good deal make! [...]43_6Apr200506:57:35-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 7121 35 26_Re: Explaining Fastforword17_Chana Silberstein16_cs32@CORNELL.EDU30_Wed, 6 Apr 2005 10:03:54 -0400661_us-ascii I have no personal experience with FastForward, but am familiar with
some of the research on this program. Qualify my remarks
accordingly: Rivky has a far better hands-on knowledge of this
program.
FastForward helps develop phonemic awareness: ability to break words
down into their component sounds.
While many researchers view this as an important pre-cursor to
reading ability, it is not the same as the ability to read.
As Rivky notes, in English, there are are other ways of mastering
reading: i.e. memorizing whole words (sight words), using inferences
to extract the whole word based on sounds your child does [...]37_6Apr200510:03:54-0400cs32@CORNELL.EDU 7157 132 28_Re: Rod &Staff, Miquon Math?17_Chana Silberstein16_cs32@CORNELL.EDU30_Wed, 6 Apr 2005 10:09:00 -0400394_us-ascii >Hi all!
>
>I've been offered some Rod & Staff and Miquon Math Series books very
>inexpensively (for grades 1 & 2). Anyone have any experience or
>opinions about these? I'm pretty clueless, and my daughter will only
>be in kindergarten next year, but they're a pretty good deal so if
>it's a great series I would want to get them while I can. Thanks!
>Nicole [...]37_6Apr200510:09:00-0400cs32@CORNELL.EDU 7290 69 26_Re: Explaining Fastforword11_Rivky Kahan22_rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM30_Wed, 6 Apr 2005 15:51:35 -0400597_- I'd be curious to hear what the research you read on this program had to
say.
I also just wanted to comment on your talking about other ways to read
besides phonemic awareness, especially your remarks on reading through sight
words. I once spoke to someone who works with people with autism, and i
suppose she works with people with LD as well, though i dont know. This
person told me that there are people who absolutely cannot, for whatever
reasons, read phonetically. Maybe because of dyslexia or what, but they
cannot sound out words. They learn to read TOTALLY [...]43_6Apr200515:51:35-0400rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM 7360 44 19_Re: sign up answers10_Larry Beck35_Larry.Beck@GIS.LEICA-GEOSYSTEMS.COM30_Wed, 6 Apr 2005 11:43:29 -0400544_us-ascii When my wife tried to sign up using the "Subscribe" check box and then
Submit Changes it did nothing. We tried it 3 or 4 times with both
Internet Explorer and Mozilla.

Then she sent an email to TORCH-D-subscribe-request@SHAMASH.ORG and
that worked. I believe you still need to have the account with Shamash
first.

Larry

________________________________

From: Torah-Centered Homeschooling [mailto:TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG] On
Behalf Of Avivah Werner
Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2005 9:54 AM [...]56_6Apr200511:43:29-0400Larry.Beck@GIS.LEICA-GEOSYSTEMS.COM 7405 118 28_Re: Rod &Staff, Miquon Math?14_Malkie Swidler24_swidler@NETVISION.NET.IL30_Wed, 6 Apr 2005 23:53:00 +0200481_us-ascii I agree with Avivah-- it doesn't matter how cheap something is if it
doesn't work for you.
The most popular math books now are the Singapore Math series. I've seen
the 4th grade level, and it looks good.
We use Miquon, and plan to move to Singapore when we are done with
Miquon. So far, we are very happy with this series, but then, I have a
son who easily appreciates patterns (he's practicing his violin now) so
Miquon is a good match for him. [...]45_6Apr200523:53:00+0200swidler@NETVISION.NET.IL 7524 22 45_[BULK] Re: [TORCH-D] Rod &Staff, Miquon Math?12_Caryn Lipson24_caryn_lipson@HOTMAIL.COM30_Thu, 7 Apr 2005 06:37:44 -0400561_iso-8859-1 Is anyone familiar with the Saxon series? My 9th grade son read about it in
the Teenage Liberation Handbook and is interested in my getting it for him.
I would probably get my 6th grade daughter the same. Any thoughts?

Caryn>

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by
Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org,
a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and
an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...]45_7Apr200506:37:44-0400caryn_lipson@HOTMAIL.COM 7547 31 12_Fast Forword17_Rachel Turniansky28_rachelturniansky@HOTMAIL.COM30_Thu, 7 Apr 2005 08:12:58 -0400507_- >>If you could do FF without going for an eval, i'll be very
>surprised. Part of the FF program is that your child's responses on the
>computer-where your child clicks- goes to the professional monitoring the
>child's progress. It is sent in through the computer. We did it with the
>audiologist, but i think some speech therapists are doing it too. Whether
>the "need" for professional input in the program is a money making scheme,
>i dont wish to comment on or even think about. [...]49_7Apr200508:12:58-0400rachelturniansky@HOTMAIL.COM 7579 61 8_Re: CAPD0_17_RENALEVIN@AOL.COM28_Thu, 7 Apr 2005 08:50:48 EDT449_US-ASCII Rivky;
your response was amazing, and was right in line with what my thinking is. I
figured that the child might be having trouble due to lack of exposure to
what hebrew is supposed to sound like. I have also thought about behavioral
optometry. Will follow-up with your suggestions of getting an evluation for this
child's eyes (which check out fine at the regular eye doctor) and having
speech/audiology evaluation. [...]36_7Apr200508:50:48EDTRENALEVIN@AOL.COM 7641 109 15_Re: Miquon math0_17_RENALEVIN@AOL.COM28_Thu, 7 Apr 2005 08:59:29 EDT598_US-ASCII In a message dated 4/7/05 1:54:21 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
LISTSERV@SHAMASH.ORG writes:

> Miquon Math Series

we have this series. I used it a little bit. The reason that I did not
pursue it more was because my life at that time was crazy (the twins were in
kindergarten, I had a newborn and a sick mother-in-law), not because of an inherent
flaw with the materials or the methodology for use. I was just not able to sit
down and digest the teacher's materials to really understand the rationale
and best use for the program. Without that, it was just [...]36_7Apr200508:59:29EDTRENALEVIN@AOL.COM 7751 66 16_re; Miquon math?0_17_RENALEVIN@AOL.COM28_Thu, 7 Apr 2005 09:04:00 EDT368_US-ASCII In a message dated 4/7/05 1:54:21 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
LISTSERV@SHAMASH.ORG writes:

> You can get Miquon at www.fun-books.com and it's worth pricing there
> before you buy anywhere else

that's the link that I was thinking of. They are terrific resources, I know
them personally as they are fairly local to the Baltimore area. [...]36_7Apr200509:04:00EDTRENALEVIN@AOL.COM 7818 23 28_Re: Miquon Math (for Nicole)18_Mrs Moriah Chesler25_merilyn@CHESLER.ABSOL.COM30_Thu, 7 Apr 2005 09:56:53 -0400596_- Hi,

I would suggest to just get them, and you can sell them later if you don't
want them.

We use Miquon Math for my 5 & 8 yos. The introduction to Math concepts, I find,
is very intuitive. The rods help, but once my kids get the concept, they
don't need them.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by
Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org,
a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and
an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...]46_7Apr200509:56:53-0400merilyn@CHESLER.ABSOL.COM 7842 54 19_Saxon vs. Singapore13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM30_Thu, 7 Apr 2005 07:14:13 -0700559_us-ascii I noticed Grace recommended Saxon in her book, which kind of surprised me since it doesn't seem in line with her general approach. It is very structured and systematic. Then I thought about when she wrote the first edition, and there probably wasn't anything better around them, but now I think we have choices that she herself would recommend over Saxon. I also thought that part of what might be beneficial for the high schooler is that they can use the teacher's manual to teach themselves and independent learning is something she stresses. [...]43_7Apr200507:14:13-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 7897 72 28_Re: Miquon Math (for Nicole)13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM30_Thu, 7 Apr 2005 07:27:54 -0700474_us-ascii I recommend being careful not to overbuy curriculum when starting out. Most of the items I bought at the beginning weren't right for my family (though they were strongly recommended in print) and I ended up reselling on a homeschooling curriculum board. That's because I didn't have a strong enough idea of what my approach to hsing was and how I wanted to teach my kids, so I took the recommendations of authors who had different educational goals that I do. [...]43_7Apr200507:27:54-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 7970 39 10_Saxon Math10_Larry Beck35_Larry.Beck@GIS.LEICA-GEOSYSTEMS.COM30_Thu, 7 Apr 2005 10:28:41 -0400579_us-ascii We used Saxon Math for my eldest son all the way through high school. He
is now at Georgia Tech.
Saxon was ok up to 8th grade but it is week on geometry and
trigonometry. We supplemented the geometry
and trig with other books dedicated to just those topics. My eldest son
liked it because each chapter
is one days work and it covers many different topics. One day is algebra
then next is
statistics and the following is geometry, etc. My second son didn't like
how it bounced around.
For high school I would look for stronger books. I [...]56_7Apr200510:28:41-0400Larry.Beck@GIS.LEICA-GEOSYSTEMS.COM 8010 40 23_Re: Miquon without rods17_Chana Silberstein16_cs32@CORNELL.EDU30_Thu, 7 Apr 2005 11:22:17 -0400322_us-ascii Though Miquon is meant to be used with rods, I had a number of years
when getting out rods was too much of a hassle ( as Rena notes, when
toddlers are choking on the white cubes, and three year olds are
dropping them out the window and down the drain, manipulatives feel
like a pain in the neck. [...]37_7Apr200511:22:17-0400cs32@CORNELL.EDU 8051 277 67_Re: Reflections on Saxon, Singapore, Miquon, and Math Manipulatives17_Chana Silberstein16_cs32@CORNELL.EDU30_Thu, 7 Apr 2005 11:35:48 -0400623_us-ascii I would agree with Aviva that it is very easy to overbuy curriculum
at the beginning.
And while my kids have enjoyed 'playing" with various manipulatives (
and, I presume, intuiting math concepts from the play), I have used
them less for teaching concepts than I would have expected.

I am going to go out on a limb here-- but based on my own research
on children's concepts developments, the value of manipulatives can
be overstated. Trying to teach a concept explicitly with
manipulatives that the kids would have gotten fine without it can
often confuse them. The strength of [...]37_7Apr200511:35:48-0400cs32@CORNELL.EDU 8329 52 23_Re: Saxon vs. Singapore13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM30_Thu, 7 Apr 2005 08:49:14 -0700447_us-ascii Thanks for saying this, Chana. My kids have all learned math without manipulatives, and you have just lifted the guilt off my shoulders. I sometimes think I must be lazy since I don't have all these fun and creative approaches that others seem to use, but it just hasn't seemed necessary to me. (I used the pattern blocks when using Saxon.) My kids haven't suffered - they learned the underlying concept when they were ready for it. [...]43_7Apr200508:49:14-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 8382 48 42_Re: Which math curriculum (was Saxon Math)10_Zara Haimo14_zara@HAIMO.NET30_Thu, 7 Apr 2005 09:12:33 -0700597_iso-8859-1 One of the many reasons I pulled my kids out of the local day school and
started homeschooling was the poor quality of the math curriculum their
school used. I am the daughter of 2 mathematicians and had an excellent
mathematical education myself, so I knew that the way they were being taught
was not giving them a good basis for higher level math. I spent a lot of
time researching different curriculum options and decided to use Singapore
math in part because of the strong recommendation from a mathematician I
know who is an expert in math curricula. Now [...]35_7Apr200509:12:33-0700zara@HAIMO.NET 8431 107 42_Re: Which math curriculum (was Saxon Math)11_Rivky Kahan22_rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM30_Thu, 7 Apr 2005 20:37:58 -0400529_- Zara, i would like to ask your advise. When i went to school, i did very
poorly in math, and you can underline the word VERY. I likely just dont have
a good math head. I never learned the vast majority of math they taught in
school. It has occured to me that i may have some sort of learning
disability. Most of my life i have never needed much math. When i did, a
calculator came in handy.
When i began being interested in homeschooling, i wasnt going to let my poor
math skills stop me. I have been [...]43_7Apr200520:37:58-0400rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM 8539 91 8_Re: CAPD11_Rivky Kahan22_rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM30_Thu, 7 Apr 2005 21:05:56 -0400596_- Glad to be helpful :-) Do you know of a good behavioral optomestrist? If
not, i suggest you do a search under PAVE or Parents Active For Vision
Education. They should have a website that gives a state by state listing of
behavioral optomestrists.
As far as the audio eval, you really want to make sure that whoever you go
to understands more than just "how well does the child hear." You want
someone who understand auditory PROCESSING disorders. You dont want someone
who says "Oh your kid hears just fine."(okay if he says your kid "processes'
just fine-theres a [...]43_7Apr200521:05:56-0400rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM 8631 151 67_Re: Reflections on Saxon, Singapore, Miquon, and Math Manipulatives15_Michelle Miller25_michelletamar@HOTMAIL.COM30_Fri, 8 Apr 2005 07:25:56 -0700368_- I would have to second Chana's experience with Saxon. Both my kids cried
after a few weeks with it. My son was bored literally to tears. It was a
really negative experience for us...very dry and tedious. They both enjoy
Calvert (which I buy separately) because it is colorful and relatively fast
moving. Also, manipulatives are used, but sparingly. [...]46_8Apr200507:25:56-0700michelletamar@HOTMAIL.COM 8783 24 28_Re: Miquon Math (for Nicole)18_Mrs Moriah Chesler25_merilyn@CHESLER.ABSOL.COM30_Fri, 8 Apr 2005 10:40:06 -0400636_- Since Miquon Math is a highly sought item, I believe one could easily resell
them unused or even partially used at ebay or vegesource or even your local
secular hsing group meetings.

I'll probably be prchasing 2 more sets for my 2 younger ones at some point
in the future. ;)

Good Shabbos,
Moriah

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by
Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org,
a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and
an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...]46_8Apr200510:40:06-0400merilyn@CHESLER.ABSOL.COM 8808 27 18_Re: Singapore Math18_Mrs Moriah Chesler25_merilyn@CHESLER.ABSOL.COM30_Fri, 8 Apr 2005 12:08:33 -0400418_- I was trained in applied Math, and loved all the word problems , but
when I went to college here (as a junior), and majored in Math &
Engineering, I found
that I was very poor in Abstract/Theoretical Math. I didn't like
Linear Algebra, Advanced Calculus & the like,
whose major emphasis were on
proofs and prooving theorems. I suffered and *hated* abstract math, but
I *love* applied Math. [...]46_8Apr200512:08:33-0400merilyn@CHESLER.ABSOL.COM 8836 118 42_Re: Which math curriculum (was Saxon Math)17_Chana Silberstein16_cs32@CORNELL.EDU30_Fri, 8 Apr 2005 12:28:23 -0400538_iso-8859-1 Rivky, is this question just for Zara, or are the rest of us welcome
to chime in ?

>Zara, i would like to ask your advise. When i went to school, i did
>very poorly in math, and you can underline the word VERY. I likely
>just dont have a good math head. I never learned the vast majority
>of math they taught in school. It has occured to me that i may have
>some sort of learning disability. Most of my life i have never
>needed much math. When i did, a calculator came in handy.
>When i began [...]37_8Apr200512:28:23-0400cs32@CORNELL.EDU 8955 63 9_Re: CAPD?0_17_RENALEVIN@AOL.COM28_Fri, 8 Apr 2005 18:41:30 EDT691_US-ASCII In a message dated 4/8/05 1:54:30 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
LISTSERV@SHAMASH.ORG writes:

> The Hearing and Speech Agency here in Baltimore offer Fast ForWord - I'm
> guessing assessment and "therapy", if you're interested in persuing it.
>
> Kol tuv,
> Rachel

Thanks Rachel. isn't the power of networking on the internet amazing?

Rena

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by
Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org,
a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and
an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...]36_8Apr200518:41:30EDTRENALEVIN@AOL.COM 9019 80 11_Saxon math?0_17_RENALEVIN@AOL.COM28_Fri, 8 Apr 2005 18:47:41 EDT626_US-ASCII this is called "drill and kill" for a reason. Works if your kid needs the
repetition but...

also don't like the scope/sequence for higher level math. Geometry is not
taught as a separate subject (someone else here mentioned this already).

We wound up using a textbook recommended by the tutor that my son used for
geometry, name escapes me now, maybe after shabbos. He went through geometry in
4-5 months with this lady and this book! my daughter is enjoying it now at
Bais Yaakov (where the tutor had previously taught). BUT...we were not using
this as homeschoolers. Rather, he [...]36_8Apr200518:47:41EDTRENALEVIN@AOL.COM 9100 142 42_Re: Which math curriculum (was Saxon Math)11_Rivky Kahan22_rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM30_Sat, 9 Apr 2005 21:45:54 -0400648_- Everyone is welcome to chime in. Rivky

>From: Chana Silberstein
>Reply-To: Torah-Centered Homeschooling
>To: TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG
>Subject: Re: [TORCH-D] Which math curriculum (was Saxon Math)
>Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 12:28:23 -0400
>
>Rivky, is this question just for Zara, or are the rest of us welcome to
>chime in ?
>
>
>>Zara, i would like to ask your advise. When i went to school, i did very
>>poorly in math, and you can underline the word VERY. I likely just dont
>>have a good math head. I never learned the vast majority of math they
>>taught in [...]43_9Apr200521:45:54-0400rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM 9243 68 12_Re: tehillim14_Laya B Jackson17_tolife18@JUNO.COM31_Sun, 10 Apr 2005 07:42:11 +0200610_us-ascii Dear Wendy,
I just wanted to check in for an update. How are you all doing? Things
progressing okay?
sending lots of ((((cyber hugs)))),
Laya

On Sun, 27 Mar 2005 17:20:24 -0500 Wendy and Jess
writes:
> Bli ayin hara, Jess seems to be doing well. He's still in the
> hosoital, and
> is on anti-coagulants. We hope to have him home with us tomorrow
> evening,iy"H. Thanks for your tefillos! BTW, it's Nachum Aharon
> ben Sorah
> Immeinu...for some reason, I was a little more addleheaded than
> usual when I
> posted the other night. [...]39_10Apr200507:42:11+0200tolife18@JUNO.COM 9312 68 46_[BULK] Re: [TORCH-D] digression about vaccines12_Caryn Lipson24_caryn_lipson@HOTMAIL.COM31_Sun, 10 Apr 2005 07:18:02 -0400546_iso-8859-1 Hi All,

Just thought I'd pass along these two links about vaccines, mercury and autism.

http://www.redflagsweekly.com/books/2005_apr07.html
http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/2004/03/02_354.html

Caryn

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by
Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org,
a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and
an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/46_10Apr200507:18:02-0400caryn_lipson@HOTMAIL.COM 9381 47 12_Re: tehillim15_Wendy Bernstein28_wendybernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET31_Sun, 10 Apr 2005 15:08:54 -0400423_iso-8859-1 Hi, Laya.
Jess is home and, B"H, doing much better. He's on blood thinners for the
next 6 months, and will have his Coumidin levels checked regularly. We're
all managing, and are completely swept up in the Erev Pesach shtick. :)
Thanks for checking in!
Wendy in Miami, cleaning! shopping! planning!
Mom to Esti (9), Moshe Yosef (7), Akiva (5), Rachmy (2) and Yocheved Miriam
(12/4/04!) [...]50_10Apr200515:08:54-0400wendybernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET 9429 35 12_Introduction4_Bara26_bara@BTGENTERPRISESINC.COM31_Sun, 10 Apr 2005 19:05:13 -0400562_- Hi,
I want to introduce myself. My name is Bara and I live in Denver, Co.I was
told about this mailing list by my good friend who is homeschooling her
children.
Just recently we decided to homeschool our firstborn son who would be
entering 1st grade this fall. I also have a 4 year old girl and a 8 month
old baby girl. I would define us as liberal Torah observant. I am originally
from Prague, Czech Republic, my husband is an American.
We lived in Israel for four years before comming to live in the US.
I started considering [...]48_10Apr200519:05:13-0400bara@BTGENTERPRISESINC.COM 9465 84 16_Re: Introduction14_Laya B Jackson17_tolife18@JUNO.COM31_Mon, 11 Apr 2005 04:57:32 +0200393_us-ascii Hi Bara!!!

Welcome to the Torch'd list, it's Laya (from Denver now in Tzfat!)! What
a happy surprise to see you here. And welcome to the world of
homeschooling. There are lots of great resources in Denver and many,
many wonderful, insightful, supportive people on this list from all over
the US and Israel.

Chodesh tov!
sending lots of hugs,
Laya [...]39_11Apr200504:57:32+0200tolife18@JUNO.COM 9550 40 36_Honor for parents learned in school?12_Harry Broome21_harrybroome@YAHOO.COM31_Mon, 11 Apr 2005 20:18:11 -0700584_us-ascii I was looking through Miriam Levi's book, More
Effective Jewish Parenting, and in chapter 2 on "The
Mitzvos of Honor and Reverance for Parents" she writes
that ideally the laws pertaining to these mitzvos
should be taught in school, because it is more awkward
for parents to tell their children how they (the
parents) should be treated than for an outsider to
tell them. When parents tell them, she argues, the
child is more likely to think the parents are doing so
out of their own self interest, rather than out of
concern for the child. [...]43_11Apr200520:18:11-0700harrybroome@YAHOO.COM 9591 80 39_Re: honor for parents learned in school13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Mon, 11 Apr 2005 20:55:18 -0700554_us-ascii My thoughts are that if this is true, then we homeschoolers are stuck with badly behaved and disrespectful kids! :)

Seriously, I have read this book several times and do think that she has a point. However, I think it depends how you tell your kids. Kids can tell when you are acting out of self-interest. When we tell them to eat foods that are healthy, do they think we are telling them that because we want to save on our grocery bills? They realize we want their bodies to be strong and healthy. Similarly, we teach them to keep [...]44_11Apr200520:55:18-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 9672 66 40_Re: Honor for parents learned in school?17_Chana Silberstein16_cs32@CORNELL.EDU31_Tue, 12 Apr 2005 00:03:27 -0400417_us-ascii It is nice when standards of behavior are reinforced by the school,
so children can see that their parents standards are not
idiosyncratic.

But-- as in all other areas of decorum-- it is important for parents
to draw the lines. Parents are obliged to point out that they notice,
appreciate, and expect respectful behavior. and that they notice
and are disappointed in its absence. [...]38_12Apr200500:03:27-0400cs32@CORNELL.EDU 9739 167 39_Re: honor for parents learned in school14_Laya B Jackson17_tolife18@JUNO.COM31_Tue, 12 Apr 2005 09:20:24 +0200591_us-ascii As parents we need to set boundaries in lots of different ways (with
G-d's help, effectively). In any case, teaching respect is an important
element in the family even when a child goes to school. Any environment
that our kids are in will open their world to possibilities, both the
good and the not so good. I've found the best learned behaviors are
modeled, and not just from us. The kids they play with, siblings, even
fictional characters in books or movies. When we lived in Denver there
were some families that we spent time with where the teen aged [...]39_12Apr200509:20:24+0200tolife18@JUNO.COM 9907 274 39_Re: honor for parents learned in school17_Chana Silberstein16_cs32@CORNELL.EDU31_Tue, 12 Apr 2005 08:07:31 -0400448_us-ascii Aviva's response inspired me to make a list:
Ways in Which Being Respectful to Parents Benefits Kids

( or why teaching your kids to respect you is quite selfless, and
acting with respect is really quite self-serving for kids)

They will have a tool for life that will make them much beloved
wherever they go. Everyone loves a respectful kid/adult. No one loves
a self-centered, rude, disrespectful kid/adult. [...]38_12Apr200508:07:31-0400cs32@CORNELL.EDU 10182 41 40_Re: Honor for parents learned in school?10_Larry Beck35_Larry.Beck@GIS.LEICA-GEOSYSTEMS.COM31_Tue, 12 Apr 2005 08:58:03 -0400543_us-ascii Harry,

If there was no such thing as grandparents then she might have a "small"
point. But when a child sees how his parents
treats his grandparents then he knows the parents are telling the truth.

In our house it is generally the mother's responsibility to teach honor
for the father and the father's responsibility to teach honor for the
mother. We also have a rabbi that comes to the house each day. He learns
Gamorah's and other
soforim with the kids that teach them musar including Kibod Av. [...]57_12Apr200508:58:03-0400Larry.Beck@GIS.LEICA-GEOSYSTEMS.COM 10224 67 40_Re: Honor for parents learned in school?11_Susan Lapin20_suelap@EARTHLINK.NET31_Tue, 12 Apr 2005 10:07:28 -0700567_iso-8859-1 In addition to Aviva's points, which are all good, it is often easier for
each parent to point out ways to show respect to the other one. Grandparents
can help with this as well. For example, a mom saying, "I hear Daddy's car,
let's go greet him." Or a Dad suggesting that children bring Mommy a drink
since she's been working so hard. We also were pretty strict about not
referring to parents as he or she, but as Daddy or Mommy, and since that is
always in a conversation with another person, if the other parent heard it,
they [...]42_12Apr200510:07:28-0700suelap@EARTHLINK.NET 10292 51 40_Re: Honor for parents learned in school?14_Jay F Shachter16_jay@M5.CHI.IL.US31_Tue, 12 Apr 2005 02:45:15 -0600579_US-ASCII Harry Broome wrote on Mon Apr 11 22:18:11 2005:

>
> I was looking through Miriam Levi's book, More
> Effective Jewish Parenting, and in chapter 2 on "The
> Mitzvos of Honor and Reverance for Parents" she writes
> that ideally the laws pertaining to these mitzvos
> should be taught in school, because it is more awkward
> for parents to tell their children how they (the
> parents) should be treated than for an outsider to
> tell them. When parents tell them, she argues, the
> child is more likely to think the parents are doing [...]38_12Apr200502:45:15-0600jay@M5.CHI.IL.US 10344 30 40_Re: Honor for parents learned in school?14_Malkie Swidler24_swidler@NETVISION.NET.IL31_Wed, 13 Apr 2005 01:02:33 +0200479_us-ascii You know, there were really only 9 commandments.

And then some self-serving mom intercepted Moshe Rabeinu and the Luchot
at Har Sinai and scrawled in "respect thy father and thy mother" on the
bottom of the first tablet with indelible ink, so they had to keep it.

C'mon, everybody, either it's Torah, or it isn't. And if it's Torah,
it's the parents' responsibility to teach it, and even more so to live
it. Even when it's a tall order... [...]46_13Apr200501:02:33+0200swidler@NETVISION.NET.IL 10375 87 57_[BULK] Re: [TORCH-D] Honor for parents learned in school?12_Caryn Lipson24_caryn_lipson@HOTMAIL.COM31_Tue, 12 Apr 2005 08:58:56 -0400536_iso-8859-1 I don't think this is an argument for schooling for the following reasons:

One thought that's stuck with me for a number of years was part of a lecture
someone gave regarding childrearing where she told a story about a woman who
had their father-in-law living with them. He was elderly and always
dropping/breaking plates. She got quite upset and got wooden dishes for him.
One day she saw her child working with wood and asked him what he was doing.
"I'm making wood dishes for when you get old." [...]46_12Apr200508:58:56-0400caryn_lipson@HOTMAIL.COM 10463 223 18_Re: kibbud av v'em0_17_RENALEVIN@AOL.COM29_Tue, 12 Apr 2005 22:01:31 EDT679_US-ASCII In a message dated 4/12/05 2:00:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
LISTSERV@SHAMASH.ORG writes:

>What are your thoughts on this?>

You're kidding, right? Just because most people's kids are in school,
doesn't mean that this is the way that Hashem created the world, as an optimal
learning situation. Yes, Torah and Mitzvos have been around much longer than John
Dewey's system of "education" with regimentation, desks lined up in a row (much
like a factory), bells ringing, etc. And yes, Hashem put this mitzva in the
Torah, BEFORE all this "schooling" construct was invented, (yes, even before
Yehoshua ben Gamla instituted "schooling" [...]37_12Apr200522:01:31EDTRENALEVIN@AOL.COM 10687 37 18_Re: kibbud av v'em12_Harry Broome21_harrybroome@YAHOO.COM31_Wed, 13 Apr 2005 09:07:53 -0700420_us-ascii I didn't think that you or anyone else on this list
(or I, for that matter) agreed with the author's
point. I just thought it would be valuable to hear
people flesh out the other side of the argument, which
you and everyone else did so eloquently. Thanks so
much!!

Harry

--- RENALEVIN@AOL.COM wrote:
>
> >What are your thoughts on this?>
>
> You're kidding, right? [...]43_13Apr200509:07:53-0700harrybroome@YAHOO.COM 10725 47 18_Re: kibbud av v'em13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Wed, 13 Apr 2005 15:10:51 -0700418_us-ascii Hmm...you wouldn't be implying that there are institutions/individuals that act as if parents are irrelevant to their children, would you?

Avivah

RENALEVIN@AOL.COM wrote:
the PARENTS (you remember them: the people who make the lunch, write the mitzva note and the tuition check, sign the homework and drive the carpool, she says tongue in cheek) would be responsible for IMPLEMENTATION. [...]44_13Apr200515:10:51-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 10773 35 18_Re: kibbud av v'em11_Rivky Kahan22_rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM31_Wed, 13 Apr 2005 19:08:24 -0400548_- I am wondering what the point is of this discussion. Someone wrote a book
that she thought would be helpful to people. I assume she hopes to make some
money from it as well. I wrote a book, so i know how much time and effort
that takes.
I know there are times when one is allowed and even obligated to warn
someone not to patronize someone's bussiness, but there are conditions that
must be met before we do this. I dont know what the conditions are, and
wonder if all of them have been met here. Perhaps people reading [...]44_13Apr200519:08:24-0400rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM 10809 119 15_Re: Sound books14_Laya B Jackson17_tolife18@JUNO.COM31_Thu, 14 Apr 2005 02:54:33 +0200562_iso-8859-1 Rivky, this is brilliant, and it sounds so fun too! I wish I had this
idea when we needed it.
KT,
Laya

On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 15:59:54 -0500 Rivky Kahan
writes:
> Just wanted to share a teaching strategy that i have found to be
> sucessful.
> I call it "sound books." It is meant to improve reading skills, and
> i found
> it to have very positive results when i took my daughter out of
> school after
> first grade, and now i see how it's helping my son. Its actually
> very
> [...]39_14Apr200502:54:33+0200tolife18@JUNO.COM 10929 80 19_Re: teaching tznius14_Laya B Jackson17_tolife18@JUNO.COM31_Thu, 14 Apr 2005 03:25:36 +0200551_us-ascii I'm slow but steady... a few late comments on this one:

Bill wrote:

>I have a soon-to-be12 year old daugher. I have
absolutely no intention of telling her what boys are thinking when they
look at her. To do so is to give the idea that boys/men are sneaky and
manipulating and incapable of anything but lust. Granted that's true.
But it will not make for approaching shidduchim and marriage with a
healthy attitude towards men or sex or anything else.
Bill Bernstein
Near the border with Lebanon [...]39_14Apr200503:25:36+0200tolife18@JUNO.COM 11010 184 18_Re: kibbud av v'em14_Laya B Jackson17_tolife18@JUNO.COM31_Thu, 14 Apr 2005 04:34:53 +0200560_us-ascii Rena, I do this kind of thing all the time with my kids too. Sometimes,
after doing something for a kid and they seem to ignore it, I'll say
something like, "Oh, thank you Mommy, that was so nice of you. I really
appreciate how you take care of me..." adding the details of what ever.
My son has recently started muttering under his breath that he hates it
when I "speak for him". The lighter hearted I do these things, the more
receptive my kids are to them and joining me. Sometimes people are so
surprised when they offer [...]39_14Apr200504:34:53+0200tolife18@JUNO.COM 11195 79 18_Re: kibbud av v'em13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Wed, 13 Apr 2005 18:57:49 -0700542_us-ascii It is so interesting that this is your take on it, Rivky. I was actually marvelling at the wealth of insight into this topic that came out just because someone initiated the topic. I didn't take it at all as a lack of depth on the author's part, or any negative reflection on her. I thought her statement was neutral and was just used as a vehicle for discussion. I do, in fact, own Miriam Levy's book and think it is very good. That doesn't mean that all her advice (or anyone else's) is ideal for homeschoolers, but we aren't [...]44_13Apr200518:57:49-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 11275 57 19_Re: teaching tznius13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Wed, 13 Apr 2005 19:12:28 -0700556_us-ascii I lived in a community that used to have this - they were called the mishmeret hatzniut. I never spoke with anyone who wasn't disgusted by their tactics, though this left me often wondering why the rabbanim of the city didn't speak out against them. They slashed tires and threw paint all over the doors of people who didn't meet their standards, and other such tactics. I really felt that it was a black mark on the entire town that this behavior was tolerated. I was friendly with someone who they rode out of town - they couldn't take the [...]44_13Apr200519:12:28-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 11333 73 18_Re: kibbud av v'em8_S Sloman18_ssloman@NETLAB.COM31_Wed, 13 Apr 2005 21:17:17 -0500355_us-ascii Notwithstanding Avivah's response, which I think was a good one in this
particular case, I say that to give someone an idea of what kind of
information is in a book is helpful. It's not a matter of opinion, it's
what she wrote. So it's keeping people from wasting their money if that
is not the kind of book that interests them. [...]40_13Apr200521:17:17-0500ssloman@NETLAB.COM 11407 93 19_Re: teaching tznius13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Wed, 13 Apr 2005 19:41:06 -0700406_us-ascii This is a beautiful metaphor, Laya; I have to think more about it to be sure I understand how it applies to girls. I am a bit uncomfortable, though, with the cover up, put it away, take it out and uncover it when it is necessary part since it doesn't seem like the best mashal regarding women. Can you clarify? (I'm sure you don't want to spend time cleaning for Pesach right now anyway! :)) [...]44_13Apr200519:41:06-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 11501 97 18_Re: kibbud av v'em11_Rivky Kahan22_rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM31_Wed, 13 Apr 2005 22:17:22 -0400514_- Oh:-) Well i think YOUR take on it is interesting too! :-) I hope you can
see why i would take it the way i did. Or am i just crazy? In any case i'm
glad you came to clarify things and come to the defense of this author and
her book.
On a different note, my daughter, whom i originally used my Sound Book idea
with, is sitting near me, and i told her that someone had said something
nice about the idea. (Thanks again Laya) she wanted to read my original post
on the subject, and i let [...]44_13Apr200522:17:22-0400rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM 11599 140 15_Re: Sound books11_Rivky Kahan22_rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM31_Wed, 13 Apr 2005 21:55:18 -0400643_- Oh you are so good for my ego! You are the first to comment on this :-)
Thanks! Rivky

>From: Laya B Jackson
>Reply-To: Torah-Centered Homeschooling
>To: TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG
>Subject: Re: [TORCH-D] Sound books
>Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 02:54:33 +0200
>
>Rivky, this is brilliant, and it sounds so fun too! I wish I had this
>idea when we needed it.
>KT,
>Laya
>
>On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 15:59:54 -0500 Rivky Kahan
>writes:
> > Just wanted to share a teaching strategy that i have found to be
> > sucessful.
> > I call it [...]44_13Apr200521:55:18-0400rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM 11740 340 19_Re: teaching tznius14_Laya B Jackson17_tolife18@JUNO.COM31_Thu, 14 Apr 2005 15:13:43 +0200514_us-ascii (Just in case some one is skimming I wanted to put this link up front to
Rabbi Orlofsky's talk on Platonic Relationships )

Right you are Aviva, I do not want to clean for Pesach right now. Nor do
I want to put away my groceries, or clear the kitchen table (I think of
flylady when I do get my sinks cleared out.) I will however manage to
get it all done some time between now and the time I light candles
tomorrow night. (well not all the Pesach cleaning, but some chunk of it) [...]39_14Apr200515:13:43+0200tolife18@JUNO.COM 12081 33 19_Re: teaching tznius12_caryn lipson24_caryn_lipson@HOTMAIL.COM31_Thu, 14 Apr 2005 10:54:48 +0000615_- This is a nice approach. It's rather like the point of being well-dressed
in good fitting clothes that flatter the person: "if a woman is badly
dressed, everyone notices the dress. If a woman is well dressed, everyone
notices the woman, not what she wears."

Caryn

I have told my oldest daughter (10) that men and women think about the
physical body in different ways, and that men get more distracted than women
do, and that distraction keeps them from seeing the person's true
self/neshama. I never liked the 'women have to protect men from their
yetzer hara' approach, I [...]46_14Apr200510:54:48+0000caryn_lipson@HOTMAIL.COM 12115 136 18_Re: kibbud av v'em11_Rivky Kahan22_rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM31_Thu, 14 Apr 2005 07:19:58 -0400578_- I was thinking about yours and Aviva's take on this, and have to disagree.
I'll give an example, that i thought of, to illustrate what i mean:
Imagine a group of people standing around talking. One of them remarks:
"I just went to Avi's Pizza place. They put alot of cheese on their pizza."
"Oh, i cant stand pizza with alot of cheese-gives me a stomach ache"
"Too much cholesterol."
"Too fattening."
Someone pipes up. "Hey, guys, i think this is loshon Hora."
" What's Loshon Hora? All we said was that Avi's Pizza shop puts alot of
cheese on [...]44_14Apr200507:19:58-0400rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM 12252 20 19_Re: teaching tznius14_Laya B Jackson17_tolife18@JUNO.COM31_Thu, 14 Apr 2005 15:17:18 +0200498_us-ascii PS at the beginning of the tape (Rabbi Orlofsky's platonic friends talk)
he mentions the way Aviva set up the room, is that you? Maybe this is
the very talk you mentioned?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by
Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org,
a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and
an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...]39_14Apr200515:17:18+0200tolife18@JUNO.COM 12273 117 19_Re: teaching tznius15_Michelle Miller25_michelletamar@HOTMAIL.COM31_Thu, 14 Apr 2005 05:59:37 -0700609_- Hi Laya,

I have also used the metaphor of covering the Torah, (even challah), because
they are special....holy...just like my daughter's beautiful neshama. And
because one wants to not distract men (who are so extremely visusal) with
the physical we need to cover up.

I too was not given this information (not religious growing up) and paid a
very high price for it. Because I know the ramifications personally of not
observing tznius, I am very aware of it. I too have pointed out why girls
who expose their body parts are really to be pitied, as they obviously do
[...]47_14Apr200505:59:37-0700michelletamar@HOTMAIL.COM 12391 56 19_Re: teaching tznius13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Thu, 14 Apr 2005 06:23:50 -0700443_us-ascii Nope, that wasn't me. I worked with him at Ohr David, he gave the talk at Sharfman's (a seminary for girls). I do know the other Aviva, though - she was the best friend of a girl I was madricha for, who went on to be madricha at Sharfman's. When I worked at Ohr David, I let them know there were certain things I wouldn't do - making coffee was one of them, setting up a room would have fallen into that category for me as well. [...]44_14Apr200506:23:50-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 12448 111 11_LH concerns8_S Sloman18_ssloman@NETLAB.COM31_Thu, 14 Apr 2005 09:23:10 -0500599_us-ascii No, I think there's a point where people need to take responsibility for
their own reactions.

I don't consider this thread to have been LH, even taking your concerns
into account.

But, as always, I thank you for caring enough about the list to want to
keep it strong and kosher.

Shoshana Sloman
Torch-d listowner

-----Original Message-----
From: Torah-Centered Homeschooling [mailto:TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG] On
Behalf Of Rivky Kahan
Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2005 6:20 AM
To: TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG
Subject: Re: [TORCH-D] kibbud av v'em [...]40_14Apr200509:23:10-0500ssloman@NETLAB.COM 12560 180 19_Re: teaching tznius10_Larry Beck35_Larry.Beck@GIS.LEICA-GEOSYSTEMS.COM31_Thu, 14 Apr 2005 10:12:59 -0400529_us-ascii I agree with what you all have said that, one, we cover up what is holy
and, two, that men get more distracted than women do. My wife has a
third answer for tznius.
When someone asks her why she covers her hair she asks them why they
think she covers it? The usual answer is that women's hair is attractive
and that we don't want her to excite any man other than her husband. Her
answer is that that is true, but that answer is in the negative and she
prefers to look at it in the positive. It [...]57_14Apr200510:12:59-0400Larry.Beck@GIS.LEICA-GEOSYSTEMS.COM 12741 40 19_Re: teaching tznius14_Bill Bernstein27_billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET31_Thu, 14 Apr 2005 09:23:29 -0500603_ISO-8859-1 I thought you lived in Mississippi. I didnt realize the KKK was also
known as the "mishmeret hatzniut," although I have heard them called
lots of things.
bill.
getting punchy from doing taxes.

Avivah Werner wrote:

> I lived in a community that used to have this - they were called the
> mishmeret hatzniut. I never spoke with anyone who wasn't disgusted by
> their tactics, though this left me often wondering why the rabbanim of
> the city didn't speak out against them. They slashed tires and threw
> paint all over the doors of people who didn't [...]49_14Apr200509:23:29-0500billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET 12782 82 19_Re: teaching tznius14_Laya B Jackson17_tolife18@JUNO.COM31_Thu, 14 Apr 2005 18:03:35 +0200545_us-ascii I'm reminded of a story that happened to me in Israel in November. My
daugher and I were on our way to the airport with all our four large
suitcases and carry on bags and backpacks at the train station. We sat
on a bench next to the only other woman, who was talking on her cell
phone. She was very pretty and VERY provocative. My daugher announced
to me that she needed to use the bathroom but I couldn't imagine taking
her with all our stuff. I looked at the young woman and she picked up my
desperation and [...]39_14Apr200518:03:35+0200tolife18@JUNO.COM 12865 77 18_Re: Kibbud av v'em0_17_RENALEVIN@AOL.COM29_Thu, 14 Apr 2005 12:25:42 EDT558_US-ASCII In a message dated 4/14/05 2:00:17 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
LISTSERV@SHAMASH.ORG writes:

>
> Hmm...you wouldn't be implying that there are institutions/individuals that
> act as if parents are irrelevant to their children, would you?
>
> Avivah
>
> RENALEVIN@AOL.COM wrote:
> the PARENTS (you remember them: the people who make the lunch, write the
> mitzva note and the tuition check, sign the homework and drive the carpool, she
> says tongue in cheek) would be responsible for IMPLEMENTATION.
>
> [...]37_14Apr200512:25:42EDTRENALEVIN@AOL.COM 12943 67 18_Re: kibud av v'aim13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Thu, 14 Apr 2005 11:23:23 -0700461_us-ascii The following is being forwarded on behalf of the sender, to avoid potential concerns about lashon hara. For those of you who wish to respond to this with examples from your own life, your responses will similarly be sent from my inbox, to avoid any identifying details being shared with the list. It is an important topic and we hope that in this way, we can minimize any potential LH without shutting down conversation about an important topic. [...]44_14Apr200511:23:23-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 13011 95 18_Re: KIBBUD AV V'EM0_17_RENALEVIN@AOL.COM29_Thu, 14 Apr 2005 14:19:53 EDT497_US-ASCII In a message dated 4/14/05 2:00:17 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
LISTSERV@SHAMASH.ORG writes:

> That doesn't mean that all her advice (or anyone else's) is ideal for
> homeschoolers,

or any other flavor or permutation of family.

I had actually had problems with this author on another issue at another
time, i.e., that of letting the baby cry it out versus responding ad lib. (as an
attachment parenting type, can you guess where I stand on this issue). [...]37_14Apr200514:19:53EDTRENALEVIN@AOL.COM 13107 86 19_Re: teaching tznius13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Thu, 14 Apr 2005 11:39:54 -0700241_us-ascii Actually, this was referring to a town in Israel in which I lived for a number of years as an adult. I only lived in MS as a kid for a year and a half (though I hope to do a big trip with all the kids and drive down in Sept.). [...]44_14Apr200511:39:54-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 13194 24 37_R. Orlofsky on Platonic Relationships14_Laya B Jackson17_tolife18@JUNO.COM31_Thu, 14 Apr 2005 21:40:46 +0200640_us-ascii http://www.simpletoremember.com/audio/Rabbi_Dovid_Orlofsky.htm

Sorry, I never put the link so here it is. Click on the title about
Platonic relationships. It's a pretty funny tape...
Simple to Remember has a lot of other teachers too, this is just the link
to Rabbi Orlofsky's shiruim (lessons).
Laya

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by
Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org,
a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and
an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...]39_14Apr200521:40:46+0200tolife18@JUNO.COM 13219 55 30_Re: kibud av v'aim - forwarded13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Thu, 14 Apr 2005 11:55:20 -0700550_us-ascii The following is being forwarded on behalf of the sender:

I stopped communicating with one side of my family almost twenty years ago. It wasn't easy to do, but it is much better than the alternative, which is to live with emotionally sick or abusive people in your life and your childrens' lives forever. It is in large part thanks to this that I credit for being able to move forward as an emotionally stable and healthy adult. My children are growing up in an enviroment that is totally different than the one I was raised in. [...]44_14Apr200511:55:20-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 13275 110 30_Loshon Hara was KIBBUD AV V'EM10_Larry Beck35_Larry.Beck@GIS.LEICA-GEOSYSTEMS.COM31_Thu, 14 Apr 2005 14:41:52 -0400460_us-ascii Just one thought regarding Loshon Hara on discussing an author's view in
a published book.

As I understand it (and I am not a Rav) the din of Loshon Hara does not
apply to information that is general public knowledge. My belief is that
information in a book, published to the public, would constitute general
public knowledge. Therefore, discussing an author's view as published in
his or her book would not be Loshon Hara. [...]57_14Apr200514:41:52-0400Larry.Beck@GIS.LEICA-GEOSYSTEMS.COM 13386 72 18_Re: kibud av v'aim18_Benjamin H Dickman19_bdickman@LUCENT.COM31_Thu, 14 Apr 2005 15:00:02 -0400312_us-ascii bs'd
There is a gemara on kibud av v'eim where an Amora whose mother
is mentally ill (in a way that is bad for them to be near each other)
makes him decide to move away from the area. This is exactly the
kind of question to ask a posek if it should ever come up (Heaven
protect us). [...]41_14Apr200515:00:02-0400bdickman@LUCENT.COM 13459 63 29_Re: kibud av v'aim- forwarded13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Thu, 14 Apr 2005 13:34:24 -0700583_us-ascii This is forwarded:

I have been reading the posts regarding Kibud Av V'em with great interest. When the original post came through, I drafted many responses in my head but wasn't sure any were 'kosher'.

Growing up, Kibud Av V'em (KAV) was taught in my house in a very strict manner. My Mother is a brilliant, educated woman who has done wonderful things with her life. Unfortunately, her health began a downward spiral when she was about 45. Because of this, she ended up being a stay-at-home Mom. She went from being a high powered exec to being home all [...]44_14Apr200513:34:24-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 13523 444 29_Re: kibud av v'aim- forwarded8_S Sloman18_ssloman@NETLAB.COM31_Thu, 14 Apr 2005 15:41:32 -0500544_us-ascii I think this is precisely the kind of behavior that would prompt someone
to say parents teaching KAV could come across as self-serving. It could
easily backfire and create a feeling of disrespect for a parent, I would
think.

Shoshana Sloman
Torch-d listowner

-----Original Message-----
From: Torah-Centered Homeschooling [mailto:TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG] On
Behalf Of Avivah Werner
Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2005 3:34 PM
To: TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG
Subject: Re: [TORCH-D] kibud av v'aim- forwarded [...]40_14Apr200515:41:32-0500ssloman@NETLAB.COM 13968 152 30_Re: kibud av v'aim - forwarded12_Caryn Lipson24_caryn_lipson@HOTMAIL.COM31_Fri, 15 Apr 2005 06:29:56 -0400427_iso-8859-1 My two cents:
I would tend to say that there are always extenuating circumstances and in this case KAV would probably mean not making disparaging remarks about their family to anyone, other than to let children know that your parents are ill and it is unhealthy for you to be near them. And also, that you miss the lost opportunities for contact and KAV. If circumstances were different, you would be there. [...]46_15Apr200506:29:56-0400caryn_lipson@HOTMAIL.COM 14121 49 18_Re: KIBBUD AV V'EM11_Rivky Kahan22_rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM31_Fri, 15 Apr 2005 09:25:36 -0400399_- >
>On the other hand, I very much appreciate what Rivky is saying. While
>Avivah's point is well taken, we are discussing the ISSUE, not the book or
>the author
>who is supporting that position, this could potentially run into a
>situation
>of loshon hara, etc. and therefore care should be taken not to go there, do
>that.
>
>Did I understand you correctly Rivky? [...]44_15Apr200509:25:36-0400rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM 14171 66 41_Re: R. Orlofsky on Platonic Relationships13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Fri, 15 Apr 2005 09:10:43 -0700533_us-ascii Thanks for this link, Laya. I really enjoyed hearing this lecture again. I especially appreciated it since I know all the people he is referring to in his jokes and comments; listening took me back to that time in my life, over nine years ago.

For those of you who don't want to take an hour and a half to sit at the computer to listen, his basic point is that boys are animals/pigs and you can't trust them at all since they have one thing on their mind, and will say whatever advances them to that goal. He is [...]44_15Apr200509:10:43-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 14238 384 41_Re: R. Orlofsky on Platonic Relationships8_S Sloman18_ssloman@NETLAB.COM31_Fri, 15 Apr 2005 11:19:36 -0500347_us-ascii I listened to this lecture quite some time ago, and although he is a
funny person, I didn't like his message for the very reason you point
out:

> his basic point is that boys are animals/pigs and you can't trust them
at all since they have one thing on their mind, and will say whatever
advances them to that goal [...]40_15Apr200511:19:36-0500ssloman@NETLAB.COM 14623 80 18_Re: KIBBUD AV V'EM17_Chana Silberstein16_cs32@CORNELL.EDU31_Fri, 15 Apr 2005 13:45:25 -0400564_us-ascii Here's a good reason to mention the source.
If this is an issue that interests me, I will want to know who has
written on the subject.
If my mind is open to being changed, I will want to read what lead
Miriam Levi to make this statement, and perhaps how she thinks about
related.
The purpose of this forum is not for us to vent our own views and
disparage those who disagree, but to have the opportunity to educate
and to be educated.
Providing actual sources helps the process of education.
I don't think we have to be [...]38_15Apr200513:45:25-0400cs32@CORNELL.EDU 14704 84 18_Re: KIBBUD AV V'EM11_Susan Lapin20_suelap@EARTHLINK.NET31_Fri, 15 Apr 2005 15:35:12 -0700573_iso-8859-1 I think conversations that stem from a book lose a lot if you don't mention
the book and author. Rather than seeing it as a slam at the author if you
disagree, I look at it as an author who provoked me to think about an issue,
even if my conclusions might differ. We're obviously not talking about a
situation where someone for example might warn against a book that sounds
good and turns out to be anti-Torah or a disguised missionary tract or
something, which clearly would be o.k. to be negative about. In the case
that started this [...]42_15Apr200515:35:12-0700suelap@EARTHLINK.NET 14789 212 41_Re: R. Orlofsky on Platonic Relationships13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Sat, 16 Apr 2005 19:05:36 -0700596_us-ascii Good points, Shoshi. I think he knew his target audience very well - many girls who were actively dating not for the purpose of marriage, who were growing in their understanding of hashkafa and relationships, and needed the chizuk in the form he delivered it. Saying this same thing to a more mature audience wouldn't be appropriate; now that I am thinking about it more, maybe girls who aren't involved in relationships with boys also wouldn't benefit. I certainly think a parent needs to be careful in how they give this information across - I wouldn't want my daughters becoming [...]44_16Apr200519:05:36-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 15002 47 31_Re: Lashon hara - end of thread13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Sat, 16 Apr 2005 19:17:18 -0700325_us-ascii I wanted to let everyone know that we have decided to end the thread on LH. Everyone who has posted has given valuable feedback and perspective. To discuss it any further would lead us in circles. And we are busy enough going in circles getting ready for Pesach that we don't need to log on and do the same! :) [...]44_16Apr200519:17:18-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 15050 55 40_(was KIBBUD AV V'EM) fear of differences13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Sat, 16 Apr 2005 19:23:20 -0700547_us-ascii Chana,

You make a powerful point here, about reacting from a fear based position to those who don't agree with us. I see many areas in religious life that this is true. For example, we as a community have become more and more machmir and removed as a society from the world at large, and it doesn't seem to be coming from a position of strength, but weakness. I have more to say about this but my brain is too tired to write coherently and think of examples. Maybe someone else knows what I mean and can share their thoughts. [...]44_16Apr200519:23:20-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 15106 61 44_Re: talking about books (was KIBBUD AV V'EM)14_Laya B Jackson17_tolife18@JUNO.COM31_Sun, 17 Apr 2005 05:12:36 +0200399_us-ascii > From an author's viewpoint, any mention is positive.

This reminds me of something I heard about a very famous book. It was
one of the chicken soup for the soul books. One of the first reviews
they got was terrible, but the review actually got it sold very nicely.
The reviewer did not like the book. It was compared to the movie "Forrest
Gump". Sales skyrocketed. [...]39_17Apr200505:12:36+0200tolife18@JUNO.COM 15168 439 41_Re: R. Orlofsky on Platonic Relationships14_Laya B Jackson17_tolife18@JUNO.COM31_Sun, 17 Apr 2005 05:31:26 +0200416_us-ascii On the other hand, in the very same talk, he mentions that when he says
these things (that boys are animals/pigs and you can't trust them at all
since they have one thing on their mind, and will say whatever advances
them to that goal) to men (or young men) they all laugh or nod their
heads. He also points out that it's the women who often respond in
disbelief and challenge the idea. [...]39_17Apr200505:31:26+0200tolife18@JUNO.COM 15608 173 18_Re: KIBBUD AV V'EM12_Harry Broome21_harrybroome@YAHOO.COM31_Sat, 16 Apr 2005 22:15:27 -0700560_us-ascii I don't know if the moderators will let this post
through, since they closed the thread, but I was the
one who initiated the thread and didn't get a chance
to respond before the thread closed, so I'm sending
this just in case they'll have mercy and let it in.
For the record:

I mentioned the book and author because I think it is
a well-known book and wanted to give those of you who
own it the opportunity to look up the part I
mentioned, to see it in context or see if I
misunderstood something. That's all. I [...]43_16Apr200522:15:27-0700harrybroome@YAHOO.COM 15782 26 9_Book list14_Malkie Swidler24_swidler@NETVISION.NET.IL31_Sun, 17 Apr 2005 09:48:24 +0200636_us-ascii I stumbled across this link to a list of Jewish children's books last
night when I was doing a search on Yemenite Matzah (long story). This
list is long, and not necessarily Orthodox, but it looked like it might
be helpful.

Malkie

http://www.scheinerman.net/judaism/book-reviews/booklist.html

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by
Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org,
a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and
an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...]46_17Apr200509:48:24+0200swidler@NETVISION.NET.IL 15809 64 19_SUMMER TEEN PROGRAM14_Laya B Jackson17_tolife18@JUNO.COM31_Sun, 17 Apr 2005 11:34:22 +0200709_us-ascii This looked great to me so I thought I'd pass it along.
Laya

SUMMER TEEN PROGRAM:
Register now for Derech Hateva, SPNI's (Chevrah L'Haganat Hateva) Summer
Teen
Program, July 4
- August 3, 2005*! This month-long program for teens aged 14-17, features

backpacking & hiking,
biking, swimming and rock climbing during a multi-weekly nature
expedition
along the Israel Trail
(Shvil Yisrael) in the north of Israel.
Experience the magnificent natural beauty of Israel's north while you
learn
outdoor skills, Torah
perspectives on Judaism & nature, gain leadership and teamwork skills as
you
hike and volunteer
along the way. Discover what [...]39_17Apr200511:34:22+0200tolife18@JUNO.COM 15874 52 9_Re: mercy13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Sun, 17 Apr 2005 07:07:37 -0700390_us-ascii Only on Torch-d do I get to be an angel of mercy! :)

Avivah - off to her kitchen to clean

I don't know if the moderators will let this post
through, since they closed the thread, but I was the
one who initiated the thread and didn't get a chance
to respond before the thread closed, so I'm sending
this just in case they'll have mercy and let it in. [...]44_17Apr200507:07:37-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 15927 572 41_Re: R. Orlofsky on Platonic Relationships14_Laya B Jackson17_tolife18@JUNO.COM31_Sun, 17 Apr 2005 06:10:53 +0200467_us-ascii I want to add another point here. I know a woman who grew up the only
girl in a family of boys. She married young and leads a very religious
life. She has a very bubbly personality and was shocked after her
youngest children went to school and she entered the working world (among
religious Jewish men) when she found her friendly gestures being taken
the wrong way. Men were coming on to her and it really was a painful
shock to her. [...]39_17Apr200506:10:53+0200tolife18@JUNO.COM 16500 533 41_Re: R. Orlofsky on Platonic Relationships8_S Sloman18_ssloman@NETLAB.COM31_Sun, 17 Apr 2005 09:25:36 -0500568_us-ascii He's a man, talking about male reaction. Apparently he is unaware of
the internal lives of females. Are you women going to tell me that as
young ladies you had no interest in being physical with boys? It's one
thing to restrain yourself for various reasons (religious or otherwise),
but to say, "What?? Men are interested in me for THAT reason?? Why I
would never dream of thinking of a guy that way!!" seems so odd to me.
In fact, it would seem to me that girls who are "dating not for purposes
of marriage" would be most likely to [...]40_17Apr200509:25:36-0500ssloman@NETLAB.COM 17034 62 26_Re: Platonic relationships0_17_RENALEVIN@AOL.COM29_Sun, 17 Apr 2005 10:53:53 EDT588_US-ASCII I have not had time to listen to this, I would take issue with the statement
that "boys are pigs" animalistic at times while under the influence of
hormones, but....pigs? That is not Kosher!

Anyway, I have not listened but I had to laugh and comment on the wisdom of
their being no such thing as platonic friendships, because..... my husband and
I started out as "platonic" friends! I even told my female friends, well, we
like hanging out, spending time together, but we couldn't do that all the time
because of the guy/girl thing so we HAD to get [...]37_17Apr200510:53:53EDTRENALEVIN@AOL.COM 17097 43 41_Re: R. Orlofsky on Platonic Relationships14_Bill Bernstein27_billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET31_Sun, 17 Apr 2005 11:04:47 -0500473_ISO-8859-1 <girl in a family of boys. She married young and leads a very religious
life. She has a very bubbly personality and was shocked after her
youngest children went to school and she entered the working world
(among religious Jewish men) when she found her friendly gestures being
taken the wrong way. Men were coming on to her and it really was a
painful shock to her.>> [...]49_17Apr200511:04:47-0500billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET 17141 70 41_Re: R. Orlofsky on Platonic Relationships18_Benjamin H Dickman19_bdickman@LUCENT.COM31_Sun, 17 Apr 2005 13:52:08 -0400635_us-ascii bs'd
The Gemara that discusses the Destruction of the First Temple
because of murder, idolatry and illicit relations (`arayoth)
has commentaries that the draw of idolatry was its special
focus on enabling `arayoth; and that murder often occurred
for the same root cause. With the rebuilding of the Second
Temple, the Men of the Great Assembly were clued in by a
prophet as to the root causes of the Destruction. They
asked that the Evil Inclination for idolatry be removed from
the world, passing up the potential reward for overcoming this
inclination in favor of survival. They saw a lion [...]41_17Apr200513:52:08-0400bdickman@LUCENT.COM 17212 54 41_Re: R. Orlofsky on Platonic Relationships8_S Sloman18_ssloman@NETLAB.COM31_Sun, 17 Apr 2005 16:31:14 -0500418_us-ascii Benzion, this is exactly what I would want and expect to see, rather
than scare tactics.

Which reminds me, I need to explain "Reefer Madness". This was a movie
from the 30's that was supposed to warn against the dangers of using
marijuana. It was presented as a documentary, showing how just one
exposure to marijuana caused kids to go insane, go on murder sprees, be
seduced, etc. [...]40_17Apr200516:31:14-0500ssloman@NETLAB.COM 17267 52 4_Boys13_Barbara Mazor19_barbmazor@YAHOO.COM31_Sun, 17 Apr 2005 16:48:11 -0700289_us-ascii >> his basic point is that boys are animals/pigs and you can't trust them at all since they have one thing on their mind, and will say whatever advances them to that goal. He is a very funny person, and it doesn't sound harsh, just amusing (though true), when he says it. << [...]41_17Apr200516:48:11-0700barbmazor@YAHOO.COM 17320 89 8_Re: Boys13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Sun, 17 Apr 2005 20:58:29 -0700532_us-ascii Oh, gosh. When I wrote this, I realized how it might sound out of context. I was hoping that rather than just rely on my tongue in cheek description, someone interested in the topic would take some time to listen to the shiur and reflect on what he actually said. Being that I know Rabbi Orlofsky, I know how he meant it, how he said it, and how it was intended. I don't think what he said was inappropriate, but I do think when discussing the topic with girls, his comments have to be put into context and qualified. [...]44_17Apr200520:58:29-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 17410 32 28_Ashkenazi vs. Sefardi Hebrew16_Brenda Goldstein21_lioness31@COMCAST.NET31_Sun, 17 Apr 2005 21:29:37 -0700486_us-ascii Do any of you know, and can possibly give me a Web source, how the
original Hebrew (as in Abraham Avinu, Moshe Rabbeinu, etc.) pronounced
the "tahf" without the dagesh (aka the "sahf")? I understand that modern
Ivrit has taken the Sefardi pronunciation of the letter. I heard that
the Yemenite pronunciation of the sahf is "th," sort of in between the
"s" of the Ashkenazim and the "t" of the Sephardim. Any further
education on this would help--thanks! [...]43_17Apr200521:29:37-0700lioness31@COMCAST.NET 17443 55 32_Re: Ashkenazi vs. Sefardi Hebrew14_Bill Bernstein27_billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET31_Mon, 18 Apr 2005 08:45:48 -0500394_ISO-8859-1 Since we have no evidence whatsoever of what "original" Hebrew sounded
like it would be impossible to answer the question. The difference
between the two could just as easily have been between Old English eth
and thorn.

I just heard this morning that someone who switches from Ashkenazi
pronunciation to Sephardi is guilty of "kometz she'avar alav haPasach." [...]49_18Apr200508:45:48-0500billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET 17499 84 32_Re: Ashkenazi vs. Sefardi Hebrew15_Michelle Miller25_michelletamar@HOTMAIL.COM31_Mon, 18 Apr 2005 07:13:35 -0700376_- Hi Bill,

What is one guilty of if they switch from Sephardic to Ashkenazic (as I did
years ago)? Having grown up and learning Ivrit in the Conservative
movement, as I became more religious and aware of my family's Ashkenazic
background (I grew up hearing lots of Yiddish, understand it, and speak it
badly:)) I reclaimed our original pronounciation. [...]47_18Apr200507:13:35-0700michelletamar@HOTMAIL.COM 17584 85 32_Re: Ashkenazi vs. Sefardi Hebrew16_Brenda Goldstein21_lioness31@COMCAST.NET31_Mon, 18 Apr 2005 10:13:01 -0700542_ISO-8859-1 Yes, I realize that we have no direct evidence of what original Hebrew
sounded like. But there must be some speculation, as otherwise no one
would have said that Yemenite Hebrew is probably closest to ancient
Hebrew. For example, "Gomorrah" as in "Sodom and Gomorrah," is spelled
in Hebrew with an ayin. Why isn't it pronounced in English "Amorrah,"
then? Because, most probably, the ayin is meant to have more of a hard
"g" sound than the alef, which is pronounced the same as the ayin in
modern Hebrew. [...]43_18Apr200510:13:01-0700lioness31@COMCAST.NET 17670 99 32_Re: Ashkenazi vs. Sefardi Hebrew16_Avigayil Simpson26_avigayil_simpson@YAHOO.COM31_Mon, 18 Apr 2005 10:36:56 -0700517_us-ascii "I just heard this morning that someone who switches from Ashkenazi
pronunciation to Sephardi is guilty of "kometz she'avar alav haPasach."

Translation, please, and where did you hear THAT?
Avigayil

Bill Bernstein wrote:
Since we have no evidence whatsoever of what "original" Hebrew sounded
like it would be impossible to answer the question. The difference
between the two could just as easily have been between Old English eth
and thorn. [...]48_18Apr200510:36:56-0700avigayil_simpson@YAHOO.COM 17770 35 23_DHA for learning issues9_Dr. Swift26_drswift@THERIGHTREMEDY.COM31_Mon, 18 Apr 2005 11:39:40 -0400608_Windows-1252 Shalom List Members,

Some of you have probably heard of and maybe used fish oil supplements to
help with learning and behavior issues in children as research has shown the
need for DHA for proper brain development and function. I know of at least
one child for which it has made a tremendous difference. Just to let you
know that there is only one such product on the market under kosher
certification. Unfortunately, Nordic Naturals is discontinuing this product
due to inadequate sales. If you know anyone who is using it or would like to
see is remain on the [...]48_18Apr200511:39:40-0400drswift@THERIGHTREMEDY.COM 17806 32 32_Re: Ashkenazi vs. Sefardi Hebrew12_Yael Resnick22_njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM31_Mon, 18 Apr 2005 14:11:15 -0400509_us-ascii Joke! But since it's not Adar anymore, it's easy to overlook...

Play on words on "CHOMETZ she'avar alav ha PESACH" (chometz that a
Jew owned during Pesach and did not sell).

Keep smiling everyone, and thanks for the laugh, Bill. I needed it!

Yael

>"I just heard this morning that someone who switches from Ashkenazi
>pronunciation to Sephardi is guilty of "kometz she'avar alav haPasach."
>
>Translation, please, and where did you hear THAT?
>Avigayil [...]44_18Apr200514:11:15-0400njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM 17839 35 32_Re: Ashkenazi vs. Sefardi Hebrew12_Yael Resnick22_njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM31_Mon, 18 Apr 2005 14:14:29 -0400419_us-ascii >What is one guilty of if they switch from Sephardic to Ashkenazic
>(as I did years ago)? Having grown up and learning Ivrit in the
>Conservative movement, as I became more religious and aware of my
>family's Ashkenazic background (I grew up hearing lots of Yiddish,
>understand it, and speak it badly:)) I reclaimed our original
>pronounciation.
>
>Back to the kitchen,
>Michelle [...]44_18Apr200514:14:29-0400njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM 17875 237 32_Re: Ashkenazi vs. Sefardi Hebrew17_Chana Silberstein16_cs32@CORNELL.EDU31_Mon, 18 Apr 2005 14:47:47 -0400616_us-ascii This is a sort of "in" joke: a play on words.
The phrse "chometz she'avar alav HaPesach" refers to chometz that
remained in the ownership of a Jew over Pesach, and is forbidden.
Chometz sounds like "kamatz"-- a Hebrew vowel-- that Ashkenazim
pronounce as "oh"
Pasach ( ashkenazi pronunciation for Patach) that ashkenazim pronounce as "ah"
Sefardim usually pronounce both Kamatz and patach ( pasach) as "ah" (
unless it is a kamatz katan).
so this joke implies that one who swtiches from ashkenazi to sefardi
is guilty of transferring the kamatz to the pasach sound.
Chana [...]38_18Apr200514:47:47-0400cs32@CORNELL.EDU 18113 54 32_Re: Ashkenazi vs. Sefardi Hebrew10_Louise Fox20_louise@JOSHUAFOX.COM31_Mon, 18 Apr 2005 21:58:31 +0400589_ISO-8859-1 "kometz she'avar alav haPasach."

This made me smile - what a great joke!

Anyone who didn't get it - please lighten up - no-one is making a slur
on your choice of pronunciation.... it's just a play on the names of the
vowels... :-)

As for the "original" pronunciation of Hebrew - the person to talk to is
my husband (who does not read this list) who did his PhD in Semitic
Philology (which means dead Semitic languages and their common origins).
He says that, as far as anyone can make out, and of course no-one really
knows for sure, [...]42_18Apr200521:58:31+0400louise@JOSHUAFOX.COM 18168 127 32_Re: Ashkenazi vs. Sefardi Hebrew14_Bill Bernstein27_billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET31_Mon, 18 Apr 2005 13:56:21 -0500675_ISO-8859-1 I hate explaining jokes.

There is a prohibition of having chometz (leaven) that was in the
possession of a Jew during Passover even after Passover. This is called
"chometz sh'avar alav haPesach" or leaven that Passover passed over.
In the Sefardi tradition (I'm generalizing--there is more than one) the
"kamatz" (thats the t-thingy under the letter) is pronounced basically
identically to the patach (thats the straight horizontal line under the
letter). When one moves from Ashkenaz to Sefard pronunciation the
patach basically takes over the pronunciation of the kometz. Thus it is
a case of kometz sh'avar alav haPatach, or [...]49_18Apr200513:56:21-0500billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET 18296 51 32_Re: Ashkenazi vs. Sefardi Hebrew10_Larry Beck35_Larry.Beck@GIS.LEICA-GEOSYSTEMS.COM31_Mon, 18 Apr 2005 15:13:57 -0400611_us-ascii I've talked to a lot of people about this over the years because I was
never sure my pronunciation was correct. My understanding is that
because we don't know the correct pronunciation the ideal pronunciation
would be where ever letter that takes a dagash (a dot in the middle of
the word) should have a different pronunciation. Not just the Saph and
the Taph but the also the gimel. And that the Ayin should have a
guttural sound. That is one of the good things about the Yemenite
pronunciation. I believe the correct Sefardi pronunciation does make a
distinction between [...]57_18Apr200515:13:57-0400Larry.Beck@GIS.LEICA-GEOSYSTEMS.COM 18348 122 32_Re: Ashkenazi vs. Sefardi Hebrew18_Benjamin H Dickman19_bdickman@LUCENT.COM31_Mon, 18 Apr 2005 15:50:57 -0400601_us-ascii bs'd
Brenda, Avigayil,

That's all I can stands. I can stands no more!
Bill wrote a joke. No sin is implied here. Unless you think
jokes like this are sinful :-)

First the 'aw' sound under the consonants that looks like a 'T'
is called qawmawtz. You can also write it anyway you like,
such as komotz or kometz. The 'ah' vowel looks like a dash under
the consonant and is called 'pathach' or 'patach' or 'pasach'
depending on your pronunication. (The final ach is the Hebrew
consonant 'cheth (ches, chet)' and has the sound of the Spanish
J (jota) [...]41_18Apr200515:50:57-0400bdickman@LUCENT.COM 18471 57 32_Re: Ashkenazi vs. Sefardi Hebrew16_Brenda Goldstein21_lioness31@COMCAST.NET31_Mon, 18 Apr 2005 17:04:38 -0700615_us-ascii Gotcha! Sorry to have missed the joke. :)
Brenda

Benjamin H Dickman wrote:

>bs'd
>Brenda, Avigayil,
>
>That's all I can stands. I can stands no more!
>Bill wrote a joke. No sin is implied here. Unless you think
>jokes like this are sinful :-)
>
>First the 'aw' sound under the consonants that looks like a 'T'
>is called qawmawtz. You can also write it anyway you like,
>such as komotz or kometz. The 'ah' vowel looks like a dash under
>the consonant and is called 'pathach' or 'patach' or 'pasach'
>depending on your pronunication. (The final ach is [...]43_18Apr200517:04:38-0700lioness31@COMCAST.NET 18529 44 32_Re: Ashkenazi vs. Sefardi Hebrew16_Brenda Goldstein21_lioness31@COMCAST.NET31_Mon, 18 Apr 2005 17:11:27 -0700649_us-ascii Thanks for your thoughtful reply. I use the pronunciation of my mesorah
(Ashkenaz) when davening or speaking "Yeshivish," though I don't when
speaking modern Ivrit. I guess I just wonder how the pronunciation of my
mesorah *became* the pronunciation of my mesorah!
Brenda

Larry Beck wrote:

>I've talked to a lot of people about this over the years because I was
>never sure my pronunciation was correct. My understanding is that
>because we don't know the correct pronunciation the ideal pronunciation
>would be where ever letter that takes a dagash (a dot in the middle of
>the word) should have [...]43_18Apr200517:11:27-0700lioness31@COMCAST.NET 18574 145 32_Re: Ashkenazi vs. Sefardi Hebrew16_Avigayil Simpson26_avigayil_simpson@YAHOO.COM31_Mon, 18 Apr 2005 22:40:47 -0700645_us-ascii Hi Brenda,

I'd agree with your Israeli friend......

Considering that European Jewish communities developed, I believe, significantly later than did Sefardi communities (and by that I mean from the Middle East), then it's only logical to assume that communities closest to the point of origin (i.e. Israel) would retain the purest pronunciation. After the explusions from Israel, the further afield the Jews went, the more and more polluted the language was bound to become. And I don't think that anyone would argue that European-derived Hebrew has been GREATLY altered by Yiddish which derives directly from German. [...]48_18Apr200522:40:47-0700avigayil_simpson@YAHOO.COM 18720 135 8_Re: Boys18_Benjamin H Dickman19_bdickman@LUCENT.COM31_Mon, 18 Apr 2005 23:52:47 -0400584_us-ascii bs'd
In answer to Barbara's question about raising sons,
let us first thank Avivah for her reply (below).

I try to point out to my two girls that boys' behavior
varies a lot from boy to boy, and that a particular
boy will change with time. I'm trying to prevent them
from stereotyping boys.

[ASIDE:
We were visiting a male cousin the age of my older daughter (9)
and he can be so active that he looks like he's playing basketball
or soccer, but there's no ball. He hurt himself on some furniture
and I had a little exchange with [...]41_18Apr200523:52:47-0400bdickman@LUCENT.COM 18856 39 32_Re: Ashkenazi vs. Sefardi Hebrew14_Bill Bernstein27_billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET31_Tue, 19 Apr 2005 08:54:09 -0500683_ISO-8859-1 Avigayil Simpson wrote:
Considering that European Jewish communities developed, I
believe, significantly later than did Sefardi communities (and by that I
mean from the Middle East), then it's only logical to assume that
communities closest to the point of origin (i.e. Israel) would retain
the purest pronunciation.>>

I find the statement very tendentious in no small part because history
is filled with linguistic "fossils" that exist far from the point of
origin. For example, people in small towns in Tennessee preserve much
older forms of English usage and grammar than people in England use. In
Appalachia the tendency is even [...]49_19Apr200508:54:09-0500billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET 18896 180 8_Re: Boys8_S Sloman18_ssloman@NETLAB.COM31_Tue, 19 Apr 2005 09:32:14 -0500503_us-ascii I am almost in tears reading your story about the kallah being slapped.
I am so grateful that at least her father reacted the way he did.

How did he know--did she go to him? If so, we can be glad that
apparently their relationship was close enough that she could.

I've heard of women who go to their parents for help with a bad husband
only to be told that that's the way things are and she just needs to
accept it, or that she made choice now must live with it. [...]40_19Apr200509:32:14-0500ssloman@NETLAB.COM 19077 47 32_Re: Ashkenazi vs. Sefardi Hebrew10_Larry Beck35_Larry.Beck@GIS.LEICA-GEOSYSTEMS.COM31_Tue, 19 Apr 2005 10:13:20 -0400495_iso-8859-1 Brenda,

One other thought. My Rabbi also learned that it is good to use a different pronunciation while davining and that used while speaking in Israel. The reason is because the Israelis use Hebrew for profane speech. Therefore, it is good to make a distinction between Loshen HaKodesh (Holy language) and the regular Hebrew language. BTY, that is also the reason for the different Hebrew scripts (like Rashi script or the non-Torah scripts in use during Biblical times) [...]57_19Apr200510:13:20-0400Larry.Beck@GIS.LEICA-GEOSYSTEMS.COM 19125 29 27_Re: dha for learning issues18_Mrs Moriah Chesler25_merilyn@CHESLER.ABSOL.COM31_Tue, 19 Apr 2005 10:27:59 -0400706_- Thanks for the information on DHA.

Additional info on DHA & why it's important can be found here:
http://www.askdrsears.com/html/4/T040900.asp

I also found kosher DHA sources at koshervitamins.com

http://www.koshervitamins.com/shop/stores_app/Browse_dept_items.asp?Search_Text=dha&Search_Store2.x=0&Search_Store2.y=0

Chag Kasher V'smayach!

Moriah Chesler

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by
Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org,
a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and
an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...]47_19Apr200510:27:59-0400merilyn@CHESLER.ABSOL.COM 19155 165 8_Re: Boys14_Bill Bernstein27_billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET31_Tue, 19 Apr 2005 09:29:24 -0500601_ISO-8859-1 Thanks, Benzion. Every time I think I have heard the ultimate shocking
story from the frum world someone comes along and tops it.
I'll echo what you said. When it came time to consider what to do with
our daughter, who refuses to be homeschooled, I asked my rav about it.
His response was, "you dont want yeshivas educating your children." He
went on that the parents know their hashkafa better than other people
know the parents' hashkafa and you have something of a duty to transmit
that hashkafa to your kids. What you dont know is their teachers'
hashkafa. [...]49_19Apr200509:29:24-0500billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET 19321 118 12_Re: Fish oil0_17_RENALEVIN@AOL.COM29_Tue, 19 Apr 2005 12:09:08 EDT617_US-ASCII In a message dated 4/19/05 2:54:59 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
LISTSERV@SHAMASH.ORG writes:

> Some of you have probably heard of and maybe used fish oil supplements to
> help with learning and behavior issues in children as research has shown the
> need for DHA for proper brain development and function. I know of at least
> one child for which it has made a tremendous difference. Just to let you
> know that there is only one such product on the market under kosher
> certification. Unfortunately, Nordic Naturals is discontinuing this product
> due to inadequate sales. If [...]37_19Apr200512:09:08EDTRENALEVIN@AOL.COM 19440 294 12_Re: Fish oil8_S Sloman18_ssloman@NETLAB.COM31_Tue, 19 Apr 2005 11:49:09 -0500501_us-ascii At the risk of being terribly off-topic, I would like to add that recent
studies have shown omega-3 fatty acids to be helpful for treating some
aspects of bipolar disorder, especially irritability.

Shoshana Sloman
Torch-d listowner

-----Original Message-----
From: Torah-Centered Homeschooling [mailto:TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG] On
Behalf Of RENALEVIN@AOL.COM
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2005 11:09 AM
To: TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG
Subject: Re: [TORCH-D] Fish oil [...]40_19Apr200511:49:09-0500ssloman@NETLAB.COM 19735 183 8_Re: Boys13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Tue, 19 Apr 2005 10:08:56 -0700573_us-ascii Benzion, great post - thank you.

I am so sickened by the two examples you gave below that I am almost speechless. The sitra achra, slap your newly married wife? And we wonder why spousal abuse and divorce rates are up in the frum community. Shoshana, I have the same question/thought that you expressed about this example. BH that she could talk to her parents and her father realized how serious and dangerous an indication of the boy's worldview this was, and called it off. That takes tremendous courage to do. I find that inspiring and heartening. [...]44_19Apr200510:08:56-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 19919 269 8_Re: Boys8_S Sloman18_ssloman@NETLAB.COM31_Tue, 19 Apr 2005 12:14:08 -0500683_us-ascii Isn't it ironic that each is taught that the opposite sex is the
tempter, when, in fact, the yetzer hara lies within ourselves?

Shoshana Sloman
Torch-d listowner

-----Original Message-----
From: Torah-Centered Homeschooling [mailto:TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG] On
Behalf Of Avivah Werner
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2005 12:09 PM
To: TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG
Subject: Re: [TORCH-D] Boys

I do think that boys are taught to be afraid of the girls as
temptations. This is similar to teaching girls to be afraid of boys as
we have discussed. What seems to be crucial in how this issue is
addressed is balance, which is hard to achieve if [...]40_19Apr200512:14:08-0500ssloman@NETLAB.COM 20189 56 41_Re: R. Orlofsky on Platonic Relationships12_Harry Broome21_harrybroome@YAHOO.COM31_Tue, 19 Apr 2005 10:34:57 -0700608_us-ascii Has anyone browsed through the threads on
www.frumteens.com? There is a lot there on these
issues.

Harry

--- S Sloman wrote:
> He's a man, talking about male reaction. Apparently
> he is unaware of
> the internal lives of females. Are you women going
> to tell me that as
> young ladies you had no interest in being physical
> with boys? It's one
> thing to restrain yourself for various reasons
> (religious or otherwise),
> but to say, "What?? Men are interested in me for
> THAT reason?? Why I
> would never dream of [...]43_19Apr200510:34:57-0700harrybroome@YAHOO.COM 20246 59 8_Re: Boys18_Benjamin H Dickman19_bdickman@LUCENT.COM31_Tue, 19 Apr 2005 13:58:15 -0400619_us-ascii bs'd
I've learned that one of the fundamental principles of living
a Torah life is taking personal responsibility for what you
look at, say and do. One must confront one's "yetzer ra" soberly
and not try to externalize evil onto others. Like "the devil
made me do it" baloney of certain non-Jewish philosophies.

It is true that the Accuser has a charter to test us (see Iyyov),
and that he will use other people as 'agents provocateur',
but we must always be aware of our responsibilities.
We must not delude ourselves, and we must ask rabbonim if there
are complexities [...]41_19Apr200513:58:15-0400bdickman@LUCENT.COM 20306 49 12_Re: Fish oil15_Alison Jacobson23_alisonziskind@YAHOO.COM31_Tue, 19 Apr 2005 11:02:21 -0700454_us-ascii Is this something that would require a hechsher if it
was being used for medicinal purposes?

Alison

--- S Sloman wrote:
> At the risk of being terribly off-topic, I would
> like to add that recent
> studies have shown omega-3 fatty acids to be helpful
> for treating some
> aspects of bipolar disorder, especially
> irritability.
>
> Shoshana Sloman
> Torch-d listowner
> [...]45_19Apr200511:02:21-0700alisonziskind@YAHOO.COM 20356 35 41_Re: R. Orlofsky on Platonic Relationships8_S Sloman18_ssloman@NETLAB.COM31_Tue, 19 Apr 2005 17:38:03 -0500505_us-ascii Yes, I have, and I don't even want to comment on what I think about it.

Shoshana Sloman
Torch-d listowner

-----Original Message-----
From: Torah-Centered Homeschooling [mailto:TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG] On
Behalf Of Harry Broome
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2005 12:35 PM
To: TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG
Subject: Re: [TORCH-D] R. Orlofsky on Platonic Relationships

Has anyone browsed through the threads on
www.frumteens.com? There is a lot there on these
issues. [...]40_19Apr200517:38:03-0500ssloman@NETLAB.COM 20392 311 8_Re: Boys10_Larry Beck35_Larry.Beck@GIS.LEICA-GEOSYSTEMS.COM31_Tue, 19 Apr 2005 14:19:45 -0400549_us-ascii Avivah,

So many points, so little time.

That is one of the reasons we did not send our oldest son to Ner
Yisrael. I went there and interviewed the school. When I was told he
could not visit my friends that live in Baltimore I asked why? I was
told they were worried about the Kashrus of people they did not know. I
said I knew the people and could vouch for their Kashrus. They said it
did not matter, they could not trust some people so they trusted no one.
I had also heard one of their Rabayim quote [...]57_19Apr200514:19:45-0400Larry.Beck@GIS.LEICA-GEOSYSTEMS.COM 20704 214 12_Re: Fish oil9_Dr. Swift26_drswift@THERIGHTREMEDY.COM31_Tue, 19 Apr 2005 14:36:30 -0400665_us-ascii Rena

Nordic Naturals is very diligent in quality control and is very careful to
produce the "cleanest" oil they can. Thanks for bringing up those points.

Russell Swift, DVM
Holistic Practitioner
ph 561-391-5615 fax 561-391-8709
email drswift@therightremedy.com
www.therightremedy.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Torah-Centered Homeschooling [mailto:TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG]On Behalf
Of RENALEVIN@AOL.COM
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2005 12:09 PM
To: TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG
Subject: Re: [TORCH-D] Fish oil

In a message dated 4/19/05 2:54:59 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
LISTSERV@SHAMASH.ORG writes: [...]48_19Apr200514:36:30-0400drswift@THERIGHTREMEDY.COM 20919 199 8_Re: Boys11_Rivky Kahan22_rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM31_Tue, 19 Apr 2005 15:29:27 -0400566_- Most of my kids are teenagers, both boys and girls, and i would be hesitant
to have any one of my kids friends over for a meal. Cant say we've never
made an exception though. I've had my girl's friend from across the street,
come over on Friday night, or shaloshseudos time- just comes right in with a
cheerful "hello everybody!" and i didnt think twice telling her to sit down
and join us. But hey, she's just the "girl next door." :-) Or sometimes
our family has been invited out for shabbos, and the other family has
teenage children. [...]44_19Apr200515:29:27-0400rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM 21119 26 8_Re: Boys15_Ilana Michelson21_stonemaker@HOTPOP.COM31_Tue, 19 Apr 2005 22:05:51 +0200548_us-ascii I agree with everything you said except one. I have 3 girls and they
look like they are constantly dribbling a ball without a ball, and get
hurt just as much as 2 of my boys do. (the third one is only 2 months
old, so he does not get into too much trouble yet) But I have run an
equal number of times to the emergency room with my girls as with my
boys for similar type accidents, (running into furniture, falling out of
trees playing soccer etc...) So lets not stereotype the girls either.
Its important to have [...]43_19Apr200522:05:51+0200stonemaker@HOTPOP.COM 21146 73 13_Re: frumteens13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Tue, 19 Apr 2005 15:59:11 -0700570_us-ascii Being that I have nothing better to do with my time three days before Pesach, I browsed the site to see what you are talking about.

What don't you like about it, Shoshana?

When I see how teenagers write online, it makes me think that it doesn't matter how poorly your homeschooled child expresses himself in print, he would just fit in with all the other teenagers. Anyone who has proper spelling or punctuation would stand out on a board like a sore thumb - actually, of all the posts I read, only the moderator and an adult wrote properly. [...]44_19Apr200515:59:11-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 21220 31 12_Re: Fish oil9_Dr. Swift26_drswift@THERIGHTREMEDY.COM31_Tue, 19 Apr 2005 18:55:03 -0400684_us-ascii Alison

R. Dovid Heber at Star K has written a lot about that. It depends to a large
extent on the health issue.

http://www.star-k.org/kashrus/kk-medi-guide.htm is a good discussion of the
topic.

Russell Swift, DVM
Holistic Practitioner
ph 561-391-5615 fax 561-391-8709
email drswift@therightremedy.com
www.therightremedy.com

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by
Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org,
a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and
an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...]48_19Apr200518:55:03-0400drswift@THERIGHTREMEDY.COM 21252 83 13_Re: frumteens14_Bill Bernstein27_billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET31_Tue, 19 Apr 2005 18:09:17 -0500623_ISO-8859-1 I'm with Shoshana on this one. The site honestly disgusts me. The
moderators freely answer questions that need to go to a competant rav.
The hashkafa is basically "if you cant prove through the Igros Moshe
that you can do something then it is automatically forbidden. Even if
you can prove it through the IM then there are more stringent opinions
and tov l'hachmir. Everything is forbidden. Doing anything but sitting
and learning in the right yeshiva is forbidden. Deviating in the
slightest from the ArtScroll mesora is forbidden. Blah blah blah and
feh on them.
Bill Bernstein [...]49_19Apr200518:09:17-0500billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET 21336 44 13_Re: frumteens8_S Sloman18_ssloman@NETLAB.COM31_Tue, 19 Apr 2005 19:49:35 -0500557_us-ascii I will add that many of the things the kids, themselves, write are
troubling. Weird ideas that they have been taught or picked up somehow.
Like girls shouldn't say, "Gut Shabbos" to males, because they will
interpret it as a sexual come-on of some sort.

Shoshana Sloman
Torch-d listowner

-----Original Message-----
From: Torah-Centered Homeschooling [mailto:TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG] On
Behalf Of Bill Bernstein
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2005 6:09 PM
To: TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG
Subject: Re: [TORCH-D] frumteens [...]40_19Apr200519:49:35-0500ssloman@NETLAB.COM 21381 24 13_Re: frumteens8_S Sloman18_ssloman@NETLAB.COM31_Tue, 19 Apr 2005 19:54:41 -0500542_us-ascii Oh, forgot to mention that I am bothered that the site doesn't seem to
identify who runs it (that I could find) or who the moderators are or
what their qualifications are.

Shoshana Sloman
Torch-d listowner

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by
Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org,
a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and
an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...]40_19Apr200519:54:41-0500ssloman@NETLAB.COM 21406 70 12_Re: Fish oil14_Laya B Jackson17_tolife18@JUNO.COM31_Wed, 20 Apr 2005 02:58:23 +0200358_us-ascii You need to check with your rav as a bottom line. I was taught that if
you are swallowing a pill whole, it doesn't count like food, doesn't need
a bracha and doesn't need a hechsher. A chewable on the other hand is
counted like food and needs both a hechsher and a bracha. (Va'ad
haKashrut Denver/scroll K is where I learned this). [...]39_20Apr200502:58:23+0200tolife18@JUNO.COM 21477 37 32_Re: Ashkenazi vs. Sefardi Hebrew16_Brenda Goldstein21_lioness31@COMCAST.NET31_Tue, 19 Apr 2005 17:51:42 -0700663_us-ascii Very interesting--thanks for that!
Brenda

Larry Beck wrote:

>Brenda,
>
>
>
>One other thought. My Rabbi also learned that it is good to use a different pronunciation while davining and that used while speaking in Israel. The reason is because the Israelis use Hebrew for profane speech. Therefore, it is good to make a distinction between Loshen HaKodesh (Holy language) and the regular Hebrew language. BTY, that is also the reason for the different Hebrew scripts (like Rashi script or the non-Torah scripts in use during Biblical times)
>
>
>
>Larry
>
>
>______________________________
>
> [...]43_19Apr200517:51:42-0700lioness31@COMCAST.NET 21515 114 32_Re: Ashkenazi vs. Sefardi Hebrew16_Brenda Goldstein21_lioness31@COMCAST.NET31_Tue, 19 Apr 2005 18:02:55 -0700673_us-ascii Thanks for replying. Though, as Bill (right?) pointed out, that's not
necessarily true. Oh, well. Thanks in any case!
Chag kasher v'sameach,
Brenda

Avigayil Simpson wrote:

> Hi Brenda,
>
> I'd agree with your Israeli friend......
>
> Considering that European Jewish communities developed, I
> believe, significantly later than did Sefardi communities (and by that
> I mean from the Middle East), then it's only logical to assume that
> communities closest to the point of origin (i.e. Israel) would retain
> the purest pronunciation. After the explusions from Israel, the
> further afield the Jews went, the [...]43_19Apr200518:02:55-0700lioness31@COMCAST.NET 21630 76 18_Re: frumteems/boys13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Tue, 19 Apr 2005 18:48:57 -0700471_us-ascii I looked at several threads, specifically those about being going off the derech, and platonic relationships/ talking to friend's brother. I thought this was very relevant to our current discussion, and have mixed feelings about what I read. I enjoyed the thread on being supportive of those who are having challenges with their religious level and the stress on continuing to love the child/sibling even when it was hard. The second thread wasn't as easy. [...]44_19Apr200518:48:57-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 21707 48 18_Re: frumteems/boys13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Tue, 19 Apr 2005 19:23:36 -0700530_us-ascii Oh, gosh - the more I read on that site, the more disturbed I get. Anyway, I emailed the moderator asking him to identify himself and share his credentials to moderate as well as who gives him a haskama to do this, and will let you know if I get a response. It is actually frightening the TOTAL lack of balance that I am reading, and I am so bothered by how every well thought out post suggesting some moderation in the way things are expressed is shot down. (If anyone wants a specific example of what I mean, look [...]44_19Apr200519:23:36-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 21756 70 18_Re: frumteems/boys14_Bill Bernstein27_billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET31_Tue, 19 Apr 2005 21:38:16 -0500586_ISO-8859-1 I think the post about being turned off to Judaism because of the site
was mine .

Honestly, just a cursory look at what is written there makes me wonder
if 1)this isnt some grand Purim shpiel or 2) It is no wonder people "go
off the derekh" when confronted by attitudes like this. I actually
spoke to someone once from a fine yeshivish family who hated it because
if you didnt follow lock-step in their way of thinking you were a kofer
or worse.
But for anyone wondering about how kids could have joined and been
zealous supporters of, [...]49_19Apr200521:38:16-0500billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET 21827 89 18_Re: frumteems/boys12_Harry Broome21_harrybroome@YAHOO.COM31_Tue, 19 Apr 2005 22:54:30 -0700576_us-ascii Even though my children are very young and I have some
time before having to deal with this, I too thought to
myself when looking at those threads that I wouldn't
let my teenager explore the site on his or her own.

On the other hand, on many of the other,
non-teen-oriented threads (e.g., in the Basic Judaism
and G-d sections) I think the moderator overall does a
very good job of explaining various ideas that all
frum jews agree on. So, I've found the site valuable
as an ADULT, and can see it being helpful as a
resource to [...]43_19Apr200522:54:30-0700harrybroome@YAHOO.COM 21917 94 32_Re: Ashkenazi vs. Sefardi Hebrew16_Avigayil Simpson26_avigayil_simpson@YAHOO.COM31_Tue, 19 Apr 2005 23:03:40 -0700318_us-ascii "The reason is because the Israelis use Hebrew for profane speech. "

A rather broad statement. Having lived in Israel for 10.5 years, I have yet to hear a Hebrew profanity - because there aren't any. The profanity that some use has been taken from either Arabic (there's lots of that) or Russian. [...]48_19Apr200523:03:40-0700avigayil_simpson@YAHOO.COM 22012 139 8_Re: Boys16_Avigayil Simpson26_avigayil_simpson@YAHOO.COM31_Tue, 19 Apr 2005 23:25:14 -0700550_us-ascii Larry,

Whew! I was hoping/waiting for someone to come up with that. About boys and girls mixing in controlled environments, important to see other homes/family interaction so they have a better idea of what they themselves want their homes/families to be like, etc. I have two young girls but when the time comes, I have no problem with my girls mixing with boys under supervised conditions (at our home on Shabbat, etc.). Would much rather have that than for them to feel that they had to be sneaky about who they see and when. [...]48_19Apr200523:25:14-0700avigayil_simpson@YAHOO.COM 22152 60 13_Re: frumteens14_Malkie Swidler24_swidler@NETVISION.NET.IL31_Wed, 20 Apr 2005 09:32:35 +0200645_us-ascii I was taught not to say good shabbos to boys in Beis Yakov.
By the pricipal.

Malkie
who married a guy with a nice knitted kippah

S Sloman wrote:
> I will add that many of the things the kids, themselves, write are
> troubling. Weird ideas that they have been taught or picked up somehow.
> Like girls shouldn't say, "Gut Shabbos" to males, because they will
> interpret it as a sexual come-on of some sort.
>
> Shoshana Sloman
> Torch-d listowner
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Torah-Centered Homeschooling [mailto:TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG] On
> Behalf Of Bill Bernstein
[...]46_20Apr200509:32:35+0200swidler@NETVISION.NET.IL 22213 128 8_Re: Boys14_Malkie Swidler24_swidler@NETVISION.NET.IL31_Wed, 20 Apr 2005 09:39:35 +0200564_us-ascii Larry,

Perhaps you should have sent your son to Ner.
I know two boys who were thrown out of Ner (vastly different reasons)
who both went on to become millionaires. I think it might be a sgula or
something.

Malkie ;)

Larry Beck wrote:

> Avivah,
>
> So many points, so little time.
>
> That is one of the reasons we did not send our oldest son to Ner
> Yisrael. I went there and interviewed the school. When I was told he
> could not visit my friends that live in Baltimore I asked why? I was
[...]46_20Apr200509:39:35+0200swidler@NETVISION.NET.IL 22342 49 32_Re: Ashkenazi vs. Sefardi Hebrew10_Louise Fox20_louise@JOSHUAFOX.COM31_Wed, 20 Apr 2005 12:25:52 +0400609_ISO-8859-1 >One other thought. My Rabbi also learned that it is good to use a different pronunciation while davining and that used while speaking in Israel. The reason is because the Israelis use Hebrew for profane speech. Therefore, it is good to make a distinction between Loshen HaKodesh (Holy language) and the regular Hebrew language. BTY, that is also the reason for the different Hebrew scripts (like Rashi script or the non-Torah scripts in use during Biblical times)
>
>
With due respect to the author of the above, and his opinions, this post
upset me, and I've been thinking about [...]42_20Apr200512:25:52+0400louise@JOSHUAFOX.COM 22392 158 8_Re: Boys12_Caryn Lipson24_caryn_lipson@HOTMAIL.COM31_Wed, 20 Apr 2005 07:08:44 -0400584_iso-8859-1 One should not have to worry about negative influences from their
children's Rebbeim!
Can someone please explain to me how it is that yeshivas propagate such
nonsense in the name of religion? It is certainly the antithesis of
everything that Yahadut stands for. This is a real turn off to many people
regarding the "frum right" world and a tremendous problem in the community.
There are major abuse problems in a community where none of this should
exist if people were really as G-d fearing as they purported to be (present
company excepted!) [...]46_20Apr200507:08:44-0400caryn_lipson@HOTMAIL.COM 22551 142 13_Re: frumteens13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Wed, 20 Apr 2005 06:55:08 -0700623_us-ascii Forwarded from Laya:

Laya B Jackson wrote:My take on this is so different, I skimmed what the moderators wrote,
interested in the issues that the kids were writing about. I went to the
topics that had a high number of posts and found out about significant
issues that are troubling these beautiful Jewish youth. I don't want to
start a flame, please, that's not my intention here. But our judgements
and disgust is useless. There is so much pain for our children today as
they are trying to sort out their issues and make it through adolescence
into adulthood. [...]44_20Apr200506:55:08-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 22694 169 13_Re: frumteens13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Wed, 20 Apr 2005 07:36:22 -0700538_us-ascii As usual, Laya, you expressed your thoughts with love and sensitivity. I agree with everything you wrote. So what I am going to write is not a disagreement, but a clarification as to my personal position on this.

I, too, was deeply bothered by the issues our teens are dealing with, and from the posts, it seems that most of them aren't dealing with them with the help of parents. There is tremendous pain and hurt that many of them are expressing, and I think it is wonderful that the site is there to support them. [...]44_20Apr200507:36:22-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 22864 233 32_Re: Ashkenazi vs. Sefardi Hebrew10_Larry Beck35_Larry.Beck@GIS.LEICA-GEOSYSTEMS.COM31_Wed, 20 Apr 2005 10:28:49 -0400469_us-ascii Avigayil,

When I said "profane" I did not necessarily mean "profanity". I meant
Chol speech, i.e., non-kodesh. The idea is we should davin with a
different language from everyday speech. As we say in Havdalah:
"HaMavdil bain Kodesh l'Chol".

But expanding on what you said, even if the cuss word is from Arabic or
Russian they are still using the word while speaking Hebrew. In that
case they are using Hebrew for profanities. [...]57_20Apr200510:28:49-0400Larry.Beck@GIS.LEICA-GEOSYSTEMS.COM 23098 39 8_Re: Boys10_Larry Beck35_Larry.Beck@GIS.LEICA-GEOSYSTEMS.COM31_Wed, 20 Apr 2005 10:32:30 -0400597_us-ascii Malkie,

So Kol v'Homer, If I get him thrown out of many Yeshivahs he would be a
billionaire? (:-)

Larry

-----Original Message-----
From: Torah-Centered Homeschooling [mailto:TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG] On
Behalf Of Malkie Swidler
Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2005 3:40 AM
To: TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG
Subject: Re: [TORCH-D] Boys

Larry,

Perhaps you should have sent your son to Ner.
I know two boys who were thrown out of Ner (vastly different reasons)
who both went on to become millionaires. I think it might be a sgula or
something. [...]57_20Apr200510:32:30-0400Larry.Beck@GIS.LEICA-GEOSYSTEMS.COM 23138 40 8_Re: Boys17_Rachel Turniansky28_rachelturniansky@HOTMAIL.COM31_Wed, 20 Apr 2005 10:33:53 -0400499_- >About boys and girls mixing in controlled environments, important to see
>other homes/family interaction so they have a better idea of what they
>themselves want their homes/families to be like, etc. I have two young
>girls but when the time comes, I have no problem with my girls mixing with
>boys under supervised conditions (at our home on Shabbat, etc.). Would much
>rather have that than for them to feel that they had to be sneaky about who
>they see and when.
>> [...]50_20Apr200510:33:53-0400rachelturniansky@HOTMAIL.COM 23179 44 13_Re: frumteens10_Larry Beck35_Larry.Beck@GIS.LEICA-GEOSYSTEMS.COM31_Wed, 20 Apr 2005 11:02:51 -0400571_us-ascii Malkie,

I'd like to balance the scales a little bit for Ner Yisrael.
Here in Atlanta the community prides itself in being outgoing and
friendly. About a year ago my boys were walking somewhere on Shabbos and
passed a few girls from the girl's schools here. The boys said Good
Shabbos to each of them and were ignored by them all. So my wife went
and talked to the head of the school (a rebitzon). The rebitzon agreed
that this was not right and she talked to the school about it. The girls
still will not socialize with boys but [...]57_20Apr200511:02:51-0400Larry.Beck@GIS.LEICA-GEOSYSTEMS.COM 23224 173 9_Re: Boys?0_17_RENALEVIN@AOL.COM29_Wed, 20 Apr 2005 11:09:33 EDT347_US-ASCII In a message dated 4/20/05 2:00:47 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
LISTSERV@SHAMASH.ORG writes:

> What do you think about situations such as a Shabbos table with guests of
> the opposite sex and similar age to your own kids when your kids get older? I
> have am interested to hear what you all do/think, and why.
>
> [...]37_20Apr200511:09:33EDTRENALEVIN@AOL.COM 23398 90 13_Re: fish oil?0_17_RENALEVIN@AOL.COM29_Wed, 20 Apr 2005 11:15:12 EDT442_US-ASCII In a message dated 4/20/05 2:00:47 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
LISTSERV@SHAMASH.ORG writes:

> Is this something that would require a hechsher if it
> was being used for medicinal purposes?
>
>

Technically, this could come from a nonkosher fish. There are shark oils
being used for medicinial purposes. Also the capsule could be a gelatin capsule
as opposed to a capsule made of vegetable products. [...]37_20Apr200511:15:12EDTRENALEVIN@AOL.COM 23489 35 8_Re: Boys17_Chana Silberstein16_cs32@CORNELL.EDU31_Wed, 20 Apr 2005 11:18:08 -0400603_us-ascii All right, guys, let's keep this in perspective.
A chatan who slaps his wife in the yichud room is a deeply troubled
and misguided young man.
This elicits such shock from us precisely because it is NOT the norm.
Let's not assume that yeshivas are encouraging this trend.
Chana

> One should not have to worry about negative influences from their
> children's Rebbeim!
>Can someone please explain to me how it is that yeshivas propagate such
>nonsense in the name of religion?
>
> >
>> Then there was the wedding in Brooklyn a few years ago where the [...]38_20Apr200511:18:08-0400cs32@CORNELL.EDU 23525 73 8_Re: boys0_17_RENALEVIN@AOL.COM29_Wed, 20 Apr 2005 11:19:13 EDT547_US-ASCII In a message dated 4/20/05 2:00:47 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
LISTSERV@SHAMASH.ORG writes:

> I agree with everything you said except one. I have 3 girls and they
> look like they are constantly dribbling a ball without a ball, and get
> hurt just as much as 2 of my boys do. (the third one is only 2 months
> old, so he does not get into too much trouble yet) But I have run an
> equal number of times to the emergency room with my girls as with my
> boys for similar type accidents, (running into furniture, [...]37_20Apr200511:19:13EDTRENALEVIN@AOL.COM 23599 29 13_Re: frumteens17_Chana Silberstein16_cs32@CORNELL.EDU31_Wed, 20 Apr 2005 11:30:50 -0400584_us-ascii Thank you, Laya, for your comments.
Just wanted to add that my perspective when I was a mother of younger
children was so much more black and white than it is now that I have
mothered teenagers.
Our children do grapple with a much more complex world than we did
growing up, and all teens face seeing some of the kids they grew up
with and love dealing with serious issues.
I have had to moderate my own views many times in an attempt to be in
touch with where THEY were.. sometimes becoming more liberal,
sometimes stricter.. sometimes simply [...]38_20Apr200511:30:50-0400cs32@CORNELL.EDU 23629 34 8_Re: boys18_Mrs Moriah Chesler25_merilyn@CHESLER.ABSOL.COM31_Wed, 20 Apr 2005 11:54:37 -0400337_- >
>If you just try to think like a girl sometimes -- not act like one
>but just think like one -- you can hurt yourself much less often!"
>He replies "I don't want to think like a girl!!" (even if it hurts) ]

This leads me to asking "Does HaShem wants man to think like women or that
boys to think like girls?" [...]47_20Apr200511:54:37-0400merilyn@CHESLER.ABSOL.COM 23664 103 23_Re: Mixed Shabbos table13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Wed, 20 Apr 2005 11:04:15 -0700361_us-ascii >> It is not the same as saying: Let's go somewhere private and fill in the blank. You CAN sit at the same table and say please pass the salt and not have it lead to anything. But you do have to give the proper respect to the power of mixing, and not have kids be doing this before they are ready to move onto the next logical step of marriage.>> [...]44_20Apr200511:04:15-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 23768 474 32_Re: Ashkenazi vs. Sefardi Hebrew8_S Sloman18_ssloman@NETLAB.COM31_Wed, 20 Apr 2005 14:34:44 -0500756_us-ascii "Profane" can refer simply to nonreligious (ordinary, everyday,
secular).

I would assume Israelis use Ivrit for that sort of thing almost
non-stop.

Shoshana Sloman
Torch-d listowner

-----Original Message-----
From: Torah-Centered Homeschooling [mailto:TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG] On
Behalf Of Avigayil Simpson
Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2005 1:04 AM
To: TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG
Subject: Re: [TORCH-D] Ashkenazi vs. Sefardi Hebrew

"The reason is because the Israelis use Hebrew for profane speech. "
A rather broad statement. Having lived in Israel for 10.5 years, I have
yet to hear a Hebrew profanity - because there aren't any. The profanity
that some use has been taken from either Arabic [...]40_20Apr200514:34:44-0500ssloman@NETLAB.COM 24243 61 14_Re: Ner Israel18_Mrs Moriah Chesler25_merilyn@CHESLER.ABSOL.COM31_Wed, 20 Apr 2005 14:14:04 -0400338_- >
>When I was told he
>could not visit my friends that live in Baltimore I asked why? I was
>told they were worried about the Kashrus of people they did not know. I
>said I knew the people and could vouch for their Kashrus. They said it
>did not matter, they could not trust some people so they trusted no one.
> [...]47_20Apr200514:14:04-0400merilyn@CHESLER.ABSOL.COM 24305 68 36_Casual Interaction between the Sexes17_Chana Silberstein16_cs32@CORNELL.EDU31_Wed, 20 Apr 2005 15:06:53 -0400448_us-ascii In an early age, marriage occurred ( or had the possibility of
occurring) much earlier than it does today.
The strong interest of adolescents in the opposite gender had a
very important function: propelling two young people toward marriage.
In our modern society where it will often be a decade or more between
the onset of these feelings and marriage,indulging these interests
can often lead to deep inner turmoil. [...]38_20Apr200515:06:53-0400cs32@CORNELL.EDU 24374 100 9_Re: Boys?16_Avigayil Simpson26_avigayil_simpson@YAHOO.COM31_Wed, 20 Apr 2005 13:24:08 -0700541_us-ascii "But my brother felt very strongly that it is not Kavod Habrios, not respectful of another human being to treat them as if they were invisible or an inanimate object."

Oh, boy. I know how he felt!

When I still lived in the States, I worked for three years in the Jewish bookstore in my city. At Sukkot time, the store used to bring in lulavim, etrogim, etc. I can't remember if I asked to do that job or if they were short-handed the first year and pressed me into service but I ended up being the one to prepare [...]48_20Apr200513:24:08-0700avigayil_simpson@YAHOO.COM 24475 109 40_Re: Casual Interaction between the Sexes14_Bill Bernstein27_billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET31_Wed, 20 Apr 2005 17:09:46 -0500610_ISO-8859-1 I am not necessarily responding to this post so no individual should
feel criticized.

The tenor of this discussion makes me unhappy. There seems to be a lot
of buying into the idea that men and women either have nothing to do
with each other or they're in bed together. Marriage is the only
mitigating factor for the latter btw. Further there is frequent
subscription to the idea that one thing inevitably leads to another so
boys and girls sitting around a shabbos table together at noon will
inevitably lead to heavy petting by mincha time. I will further add
[...]49_20Apr200517:09:46-0500billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET 24585 93 29_[QUAR]RE: [TORCH-D] frumteens11_Susan Lapin20_suelap@EARTHLINK.NET31_Wed, 20 Apr 2005 15:23:45 -0700385_iso-8859-1 >>>Just wanted to add that my perspective when I was a mother of younger
children was so much more black and white than it is now that I have
mothered teenagers.<<<<

Yes, yes, yes. If I was more competent at the computer, I actually would
copy a bunch of comments, and put them in the reply, but since I don't know
how to do that, this is my "pick". [...]42_20Apr200515:23:45-0700suelap@EARTHLINK.NET 24679 107 14_Re: Ner Israel13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Wed, 20 Apr 2005 20:15:39 -0700568_us-ascii I only wanted to add one thing that you may not be aware of - Ner Israel has changed in the last ten years in their approach, becoming more typically 'yeshivish'. I'm not passing judgement, just passing information :).

There is no question that there are many wonderful families living on Yeshiva Lane, who are very dedicated to Torah and mitzvos, as well as the boys at the yeshiva. For some bochurim it may be an adequate substitute for home, but in any event, they are still an institution and are faced with the limitations of an institution. [...]44_20Apr200520:15:39-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 24787 45 40_Re: Casual Interaction between the Sexes12_caryn lipson24_caryn_lipson@HOTMAIL.COM31_Thu, 21 Apr 2005 03:59:40 +0000568_- I feel that taking anything to an extreme - either "anything goes" or it's
totally forbidden, even in terms of alcohol, tend to bring the same results.
When things are allowed in moderation from an early age, then we can learn
respect for them, instead of it being such a tempting mystery that one goes
overboard with it as soon as they get the opportunity. I think that they
have the tools for knowing what's proper and how to deal with it, so even if
small mistakes are made (hopefully not) they can bring themselves back
rather quickly. [...]46_21Apr200503:59:40+0000caryn_lipson@HOTMAIL.COM 24833 422 9_Re: Boys?14_Laya B Jackson17_tolife18@JUNO.COM31_Thu, 21 Apr 2005 07:39:52 +0200531_us-ascii Avigayil,
I know how you felt. I live in Tzfat and it was a real shocker when I
first got here to arrive in Eretz haKodesh only to be ignored on the
streets of the old city by half the population. It didn't take me that
long to have a paradigm shift though. In a way if you can think of it as
cultural, it may help. Sometimes we have an expectation of how we think
Jews *should* behave (I've been called naive, dreamer, etc). I actually
feel very comfortable with it now and take it as a sign of [...]39_21Apr200507:39:52+0200tolife18@JUNO.COM 25256 273 9_Re: Boys?8_S Sloman18_ssloman@NETLAB.COM31_Thu, 21 Apr 2005 08:01:20 -0500336_us-ascii > Interestingly, I learned there was a time in American society where it
was considered rude for a man to address a woman without her first
making contact.

Along those same lines, it used to be considered rude for a man to offer
to shake a woman's hand. It was her prerogative to extend her hand
first. [...]40_21Apr200508:01:20-0500ssloman@NETLAB.COM 25530 66 8_Re: Boys13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Thu, 21 Apr 2005 06:23:06 -0700534_us-ascii I think it is so important to be aware of where others are coming from before jumping to conclusions about their behavior. I never felt offended when men didn't look at me, I actually found it freed me from the unsureness of if I should say hello to them to be polite. Since I knew what the expectations in the frum world I was in were, I found it appropriate and was only thrown off when someone did something different - like the friend of a husband whose rebbi (I think it was R' Scheinberg) said they should greet a [...]44_21Apr200506:23:06-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 25597 211 9_Re: boys?0_17_RENALEVIN@AOL.COM29_Thu, 21 Apr 2005 09:19:59 EDT372_US-ASCII In a message dated 4/21/05 1:59:38 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
LISTSERV@SHAMASH.ORG writes:

> The
> reasons
> not to talk to boys were almost all negative - how about saying, you want to
> save your emotional energy for the one in your life who will really matter
> (which R' Orlofsky said), to make that relationship super special?
> [...]37_21Apr200509:19:59EDTRENALEVIN@AOL.COM 25809 66 14_Re: Ner Israel0_17_RENALEVIN@AOL.COM29_Thu, 21 Apr 2005 09:26:28 EDT415_US-ASCII In a message dated 4/21/05 1:59:38 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
LISTSERV@SHAMASH.ORG writes:

>
> I wished the poster had not named Ner Israel in his post, as this could lead
> to Loshon Hora about the college. I feel I have the obligation to counter
> this negative post with a very positive one.
>
>

As a resident of Baltimore for almost 30 years, I can only add: Amein! [...]37_21Apr200509:26:28EDTRENALEVIN@AOL.COM 25876 51 11_erev Pesach13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Thu, 21 Apr 2005 06:33:04 -0700385_us-ascii This is what I wrote about right before Purim, how things get busy before yom tov. I have been smiling to myself, seeing the same thing happen again, but I didn't want to comment on it and have people stop!

I would hesitate to ask, but since obviously everyone has Pesach well under control and has extra time to sit at the computer :), how have you all done it?! [...]44_21Apr200506:33:04-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 25928 68 20_Re: Fish oil, again!0_17_RENALEVIN@AOL.COM29_Thu, 21 Apr 2005 09:35:14 EDT570_US-ASCII I went to the Health food store yesterday, and spoke with them about Nordic.
The ONLY product that they know of which is being discontinued is Nordic's
LIQUID fish oil which of course is easier for children to use. They DO have
another product which is a fish oil chewable, very small, smaller than an M&M
candy. This can also be used for the same result. My 15 y.o. dd is usnig this
product (she swallows these, does not chew) and finds that she can drink them
down, they are smaller than the regular Nordic capsules which are very big. [...]37_21Apr200509:35:14EDTRENALEVIN@AOL.COM 25997 85 9_Re: boys?13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Thu, 21 Apr 2005 07:19:15 -0700340_us-ascii Rena, you have a great approach to addressing sexuality with your kids, and personally I have found your suggestions very helpful. My husband can't believe how comfortably I handle 'sticky' questions, but I don't think it is a matter of what words to use. It is more of an attitude, being matter of fact and natural about it. [...]44_21Apr200507:19:15-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 26083 167 20_Re: Fish oil, again!9_Dr. Swift26_drswift@THERIGHTREMEDY.COM31_Thu, 21 Apr 2005 09:52:33 -0400464_us-ascii Hi,

Nordic said they were discontinuing because of slow sales. I did find the
NutriSupreme product as per the link someone posted on Torch-d. Thanks for
the link. I tracked the company down and they have a large variety of
products with varying levels of EPA and DHA, etc. It is a Jewish family so I
am very happy to be able to give them parnassah. Their products are
available from www.koshervitamins.com as previously posted. [...]48_21Apr200509:52:33-0400drswift@THERIGHTREMEDY.COM 26251 23 8_Re: boys18_Mrs Moriah Chesler25_merilyn@CHESLER.ABSOL.COM31_Thu, 21 Apr 2005 10:57:58 -0400612_- >
>I know two boys who were thrown out of Ner (vastly different reasons)
>who both went on to become millionaires. I think it might be a sgula or
>something.

Is this a good thing? The part about becoming millionaires?
There's no price to learning Torah... or substitution for it.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by
Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org,
a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and
an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...]47_21Apr200510:57:58-0400merilyn@CHESLER.ABSOL.COM 26275 50 14_Re: Ner Israel18_Mrs Moriah Chesler25_merilyn@CHESLER.ABSOL.COM31_Thu, 21 Apr 2005 11:24:58 -0400504_- Why single out an institution and point out only negatives, if any, which
may be intepreted as loshon hora? Didin't we have a LH guideline to not
name 'names' of people, institution, whatever, yet we still do the opposite?

Similarly with other websites on discussion here? Rabbi Rietti says "If one
wants to complain about something, even if it's only a tiny spot on a white
garment, then by the same logic, one should also talk about the 99% of
goodness about the garment." [...]47_21Apr200511:24:58-0400merilyn@CHESLER.ABSOL.COM 26326 38 40_Re: Casual Interaction between the Sexes17_Chana Silberstein16_cs32@CORNELL.EDU31_Thu, 21 Apr 2005 13:11:43 -0400434_us-ascii >
>Further, could you imagine what would have happened if Rivka hadn't
>greeted Eliezer at the well? He was looking for good midos - not a
>girl who would ignore him.

From my reading of Chumash, Eliezer's criterion for the proper wife
was a kind-hearted girl who would draw water for both him and his
camels, not the skilled conversationalist who could make pleasant
small talk with a stranger. [...]38_21Apr200513:11:43-0400cs32@CORNELL.EDU 26365 121 8_LH again13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Thu, 21 Apr 2005 15:34:37 -0700561_us-ascii Maybe I am too tired and being too sensitive, but I am really feeling inadequate as moderator. It seems that I may have inadvertently offended some of you with my posts, and alot of what I approve for the list is seen as not being screeened enough to meet list guidelines. I am not trying to spread negativity, LH, or badmouth anyone, but it seems like every other day (I know, I'm exaggerating) someone is bothered. Maybe it is because I can really understand why the comments about these issues are arising, and I feel embarrassed to be seen as [...]44_21Apr200515:34:37-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 26487 73 14_Re: Ner Israel8_S Sloman18_ssloman@NETLAB.COM31_Thu, 21 Apr 2005 17:45:40 -0500369_us-ascii I agree with you that I don't like to see a place being only described
in negative terms, and I'm happy to see that, in fact, others jumped in
to balance out the picture (so the discussion really wasn't one-sided).

However, the things that were being described as negative are not
anything shameful. They are just policies of the yeshiva. [...]40_21Apr200517:45:40-0500ssloman@NETLAB.COM 26561 42 12_Re: LH again17_Chana Silberstein16_cs32@CORNELL.EDU31_Thu, 21 Apr 2005 20:41:51 -0400602_us-ascii Aviva, I for one appreciate your willingness to assume the best, to
"censor" only mildly, and to generously give of your time to enable
this list to continue.

And perhaps we all need to trust the process through which the
culture of the list is formed...
To understand the need for people to have a safe place to be able to
say what is on their mind, the appropriateness of others respectfully
disagreeing, the balancing power of those who remind us to be wary of
stereotypes, lashon hara, and other values in considering what to
post and in evaluating the [...]38_21Apr200520:41:51-0400cs32@CORNELL.EDU 26604 47 12_Re: LH again12_Yael Resnick22_njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM31_Thu, 21 Apr 2005 20:45:45 -0400413_us-ascii Avivah --

I think you're doing a great job as co-moderator. I don't think it's
realistic to think that everyone will always agree with your
decisions (I mean come on, two Jews, three opinions, right?). I am
sure you always try to make the best possible judgments about whether
or not to approve posts, etc., and in my opinion your judgment has
been very fair. It's a hard job. [...]44_21Apr200520:45:45-0400njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM 26652 74 12_Re: LH again14_Bill Bernstein27_billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET31_Thu, 21 Apr 2005 20:52:05 -0500605_ISO-8859-1 I'll second the thanks to Aviva. Truly a thankless job.
I think the discussion is valuable for a number of reasons. People have
to confront their own views and ask whether this is what they truly
believe, this is what they're comfortable with, or this is what they
would never do. The fact that all of us here are committed to a Torah
way of life highlights the diversity of the community. That's a good
thing. The criticisms are not simply venting (sometimes they are that
too) but without self-criticism there can be no self improvement.
My daughter's bas mitzva [...]49_21Apr200520:52:05-0500billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET 26727 57 8_Re: Boys12_Yael Resnick22_njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM31_Thu, 21 Apr 2005 22:14:31 -0400330_us-ascii I've been reading this thread with interest and have gained a
tremendous amount from everyone's perspectives -- including some very
practical advice which I will keep in mind. One thing has been
missing, however, and I haven't been able to put my finger on it
until today. I'll try to put it into words. [...]44_21Apr200522:14:31-0400njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM 26785 55 12_Re: LH again13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Thu, 21 Apr 2005 21:10:27 -0700356_us-ascii Is there a direct correlation between needing the new shotgun now that she is bas mitzva? Perhaps in line with our current onlist discussion, to keep away young adolescent males? :)

Happy hunting, Bill, or whatever the appropriate good wishes are for your new aquisition. :) Seriously, though, mazel tov on your daughter's bas mitzva. [...]44_21Apr200521:10:27-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 26841 35 12_Re: LH again12_Yael Resnick22_njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM31_Fri, 22 Apr 2005 00:45:15 -0400609_us-ascii >Is there a direct correlation between needing the new shotgun now
>that she is bas mitzva? Perhaps in line with our current onlist
>discussion, to keep away young adolescent males? :)

Hi Avivah!

You made me laugh! :)

Hope you are going to sleep soon. Have a wonderful Shabbos & Yom Tov.

Yael

P.S. Did you know that my daughter is on the Yaldah editorial board
with your daughter? (By the way, I saw the interview with your kids
in the first issue -- very nice!) Leah Larson just moved to Sharon,
Massachusetts (where I live). We had her family [...]44_22Apr200500:45:15-0400njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM 26877 44 14_Re: Ner Israel18_Mrs Moriah Chesler25_merilyn@CHESLER.ABSOL.COM31_Fri, 22 Apr 2005 02:24:47 -0400632_- I do believe it would be better
to just say that one institution has this particular policy
and not say which institution it is, unless of course, this particular
institution has come out in public in some kind of publication that declares
its blanket policy of .... blah blah blah...

If someone wants to improve on something that needs improvement, then
discussing the particular matter with the institution makes more sense than
talking about it here, wouldn't you think? And if there's a resolution,
then by all means, share the positive result, but still remain as discreet
as possible, so [...]47_22Apr200502:24:47-0400merilyn@CHESLER.ABSOL.COM 26922 50 9_Sonlight?15_Nicole Brackman18_drnb1969@YAHOO.COM31_Fri, 22 Apr 2005 05:48:31 -0700403_us-ascii Hi all!

I somehow received the Sonlight curriculum catalogue in the mail yesterday and it looks very interesting. Obviously one would have to totally skip all the X-tian stuff but I love the idea of "learning through literature." Does anyone have experience with this curriculum? I'm thinking not really for next year (which would be kindergarten) but more in the elementary years. [...]40_22Apr200505:48:31-0700drnb1969@YAHOO.COM 26973 40 37_foward of link to holocaust web sites14_Laya B Jackson17_tolife18@JUNO.COM31_Tue, 26 Apr 2005 23:12:22 +0200546_us-ascii 145 Educational Websites about the Holocaust

Holocaust Remembrance Day is Thursday, May 5, 2005.
I posted on my website 145 links to learn about the Holocaust.
Site languages include English, Hebrew, German, Italian,
Portuguese, Russian and Spanish.
All 145 links have been reviewed / checked this week.

The web address is:

http://www.jr.co.il/hotsites/j-holoc.htm

If you do not see April 2005 on the top of the web page,
hold the control key and press the F5 key to refresh your browser. [...]39_26Apr200523:12:22+0200tolife18@JUNO.COM 27014 77 23_shiurim on the Internet14_Laya B Jackson17_tolife18@JUNO.COM31_Wed, 27 Apr 2005 08:36:20 +0200478_us-ascii FYI

www.breslov.org/audio

is a link to R. Chaim Kramer's shiurim on the teachings of Rebbe Nachman
of Breslov.

Moadim l'simcha,

Laya

(traveling around Israel for Pesach.
How I wish you all were HERE with me.
Yesterday was the Bircat ha Cohenim at the Kotel.
The country is full of the spirit of the chag.
Kosher for Pesach snacks are available where ever you go.
Come visit... Israel makes a great field trip!) [...]39_27Apr200508:36:20+0200tolife18@JUNO.COM 27092 54 27_Re: shiurim on the Internet14_Bill Bernstein27_billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET31_Wed, 27 Apr 2005 11:08:20 -0500609_ISO-8859-1 R' Kramer came to Nashville once many years ago and stayed with us over
Shabbos. He is a terrific guy with a lot of insights. The fact that he
looks and sounds like a Brooklyn plumber (which he was) only adds to his
charm.
bill.

Laya B Jackson wrote:

> FYI
>
> www.breslov.org/audio
>
> is a link to R. Chaim Kramer's shiurim on the teachings of Rebbe
> Nachman of Breslov.
>
> Moadim l'simcha,
>
> Laya
>
> (traveling around Israel for Pesach.
> How I wish you all were HERE with me.
> Yesterday [...]49_27Apr200511:08:20-0500billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET 27147 65 12_Re: LH again13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Wed, 27 Apr 2005 09:35:20 -0700606_us-ascii What is your daughter's name? I didn't know she was also on the editorial board - what a very small world!

I have no plans to visit Sharon, but a joint get together sounds wonderful!

Avivah

Yael Resnick wrote:
P.S. Did you know that my daughter is on the Yaldah editorial board
with your daughter? (By the way, I saw the interview with your kids
in the first issue -- very nice!) Leah Larson just moved to Sharon,
Massachusetts (where I live). We had her family here for Shabbos
lunch last week. If you're ever in Sharon, we could [...]44_27Apr200509:35:20-0700avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 27213 85 13_Re: Sonlight?10_Zara Haimo14_zara@HAIMO.NET31_Wed, 27 Apr 2005 09:53:51 -0700637_iso-8859-1 Sonlight is based on Charlotte Mason's approach to learning. My 3 kids have used their materials for the last 3 years, but I edit out the religious stuff and supplement heavily with Jewish material. Their choice of reading material is excellent - you can use their catalog as a guide to getting books from the library or picking supplementary materials. I find their reviews of the outside materials they distribute (such as spelling, grammar, math, etc.) to be very thoughtful and very helpful. We use Spelling Power largely because of Sonlight's recommendations. Another excellent, free source of Charlotte Mason based [...]36_27Apr200509:53:51-0700zara@HAIMO.NET 27299 189 13_Re: Sonlight?16_Eric & Lori Swim17_elswim@KANSAS.NET31_Wed, 27 Apr 2005 15:34:01 -0500623_us-ascii Shalom Nicole --

We've been using Sonlight minus the Christian content for 3 years now.
A number of others use the curriculum as a guide and leave off the
religious materials. There is an e-list somewhere for "secular"
sonlight users, although I am not a part of it. I majored in English
(middle/high school level) education and was really interested in
literature- based learning at that time. I read historical fiction
books in college that really connected me to history in a way that
textbooks never had. We love Sonlight simply because most of their
books are great and my [...]39_27Apr200515:34:01-0500elswim@KANSAS.NET 27489 135 13_Re: Sonlight?14_Laya B Jackson17_tolife18@JUNO.COM31_Thu, 28 Apr 2005 00:07:47 +0200348_us-ascii Hi Nicole,
Do you know about the "Five in a Row" series? Those are a great way to
teach through literature geared at kindergarden age. You read one story
for five days in a row and each day focus on a different aspect of it,
from science to art, etc. I didn't use it too much, but my kids and I
enjoyed what we did do. [...]39_28Apr200500:07:47+0200tolife18@JUNO.COM 27625 76 31_YALDAH and HSers---kvell alert!15_Wendy Bernstein28_wendybernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET31_Wed, 27 Apr 2005 20:03:59 -0400353_iso-8859-1 Torch-d is well represented on the YALDAH board! My daughter, Esti, as well as Ellen's Batsheva are on there, too.
Wendy in Miami
Mom to Esti (9), Moshe Yosef (7), Akiva (5), Rachmy (2) and Yocheved Miriam (12/4/04!)

What is your daughter's name? I didn't know she was also on the editorial board - what a very small world! [...]50_27Apr200520:03:59-0400wendybernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET 27702 31 14_hasidic reggae6_Zohari20_najova@EARTHLINK.NET31_Wed, 27 Apr 2005 20:30:42 -0600572_US-ASCII Dear Friends,

Just a little note from a proud mommy. Check out hasidicreggae.com and
scroll down to the "Picture of the Day" to see my 6yo son's artwork.
Matisyahu Miller is his favorite artist and we were lucky to see him in
concert here in Denver several months ago. My son gave him a drawing in
reference to the first song on the CD. Matisyahu was so gracious and loving
to my little boy, really talking to him and accepting the gift even while
many, many people were waiting in line to see him. I highly recommend this
CD for [...]42_27Apr200520:30:42-0600najova@EARTHLINK.NET 27734 87 9_Re: boys?0_17_RENALEVIN@AOL.COM29_Thu, 28 Apr 2005 10:12:17 EDT416_US-ASCII In a message dated 4/22/05 2:01:35 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
LISTSERV@SHAMASH.ORG writes:

>
> Along those same lines, it used to be considered rude for a man to offer
> to shake a woman's hand. It was her prerogative to extend her hand
> first.
>
> If people kept to that it would be easier for women who observe shomer
> negiah to avoid those awkward situations.
>
> [...]37_28Apr200510:12:17EDTRENALEVIN@AOL.COM 27822 28 4_FIAR15_Michelle Miller25_michelletamar@HOTMAIL.COM31_Thu, 28 Apr 2005 07:42:29 -0700472_- I used Five in A Row quite a bit for pre-k, kindergarden and a bit beyond.
My kids also really liked it and the literature is so classic and beautiful,
I can't bear to part with the books. It is the same idea as Sonlight (which
I've heard is good, but you'd have to eliminate a lot of the Xtian stuff, so
why pay for that?). While FIAR is written by a Christian, there isn't much
you'd have to delete (less than 5%). It is entirely literature based. [...]47_28Apr200507:42:29-0700michelletamar@HOTMAIL.COM 27851 92 35_Re: YALDAH and HSers---kvell alert!12_Yael Resnick22_njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM31_Thu, 28 Apr 2005 18:50:55 -0400356_us-ascii This is so nice! My daughter's name is Chava. (I e-mailed Avivah
privately in answer to her last message, but since this went public
anyway and at least a few other people are interested, I'm answering
here too.)

And my offer of a get-together in Sharon, where editor Leah Larson
now lives, is open to everyone, of course. [...]44_28Apr200518:50:55-0400njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM