1 SHAMASH.ORG /usr/www/wwwhc/listserv/archives/torch-d March 2005 2 866 25_TORCH-D MONTHLY REMINDERS8_S Sloman18_ssloman@NETLAB.COM30_Tue, 1 Mar 2005 11:47:22 -0500629_us-ascii Please take a few minutes to read through these reminders of TorCH-d
policies, procedures, and guidelines, which are sent out on a monthly
basis. If you have any problems with the list, please let me know. If
you are enjoying the list, please let others know.

1. WHO WE ARE

TorCH-d is devoted to discussion of topics related to Torah-centered
homeschooling. This can include sharing resources for homeschooling
curricula, techniques, and philosophies. Thoughts, ideas, experiences,
and opinions are also appropriate, as long as they are related to
religious Jewish homeschooling. [...]39_1Mar200511:47:22-0500ssloman@NETLAB.COM 869 159 10_Re: stocks15_Kinta K. Telano20_kintakay@NETZERO.NET31_Mon, 28 Feb 2005 16:38:52 -0600575_iso-8859-1 I remember reading about flipping real estate in the book, it stuck because it's the first time I had ever heard it called that. Basically it's about locating property for a short term hold at the lowest cost possible (meaning any repairs, interest on loan, etc.) and then selling for a profit. I haven't done this, so can't offer my personal experience, but I do know people who do this. For instance, one of my clients had purchased a pre-construction condo in Florida, and he made the purchase with a very low interest letter of credit from his bank, then [...]42_28Feb200516:38:52-0600kintakay@NETZERO.NET 1029 35 49_Re: Learning a foregin language (re: 4 year olds)19_Mrs. Moriah Chesler25_merilyn@CHESLER.ABSOL.COM30_Tue, 1 Mar 2005 02:12:31 -0500366_- >
>Moriah, like you, I have always found it helpful to to introduce
>Chumash once there is already some familiarity with basic Hebrew
>vocabulary ( which pre-schoolers absorb like sponges).

I think our Sages agree with you too - they say that once a child
can talk, we should teach them 'Torah Tziva Lanu Moshe, Morasha
Kehilas Yaakov'. [...]46_1Mar200502:12:31-0500merilyn@CHESLER.ABSOL.COM 1065 26 20_hs without judgement0_17_Sarasimp7@AOL.COM30_Tue, 1 Mar 2005 03:41:44 -0500580_iso-8859-1 My mother sent me a New Yorker cartoon where an interviewer (potential employer) says to the person interviewing "We will have to reevaluate your MBA based on the fact that you were homeschooled." Ha Ha
I applaud Avivah for her eloquent and extremely accurate description of school life for teenagers. My 9th grader, girl, did not like the out of Des Moines school (there was nothing wrong with the school except that it wasn't a good match for her)that we chose , because of proximity to relatives, for her. She didn't go back after Succos and I am not sorry. [...]38_1Mar200503:41:44-0500Sarasimp7@AOL.COM 1092 81 33_Re: What did you tell your child?11_Rivky Kahan22_rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM30_Tue, 1 Mar 2005 08:29:33 -0500658_- Nicole, i'd like to offer my thoughts, but before i can have any thoughts,
can you remind me why it is that you plan on not enrolling your daughter in
school next semester even though she is happy and doing well there? Rivky

>From: Nicole Brackman
>Reply-To: Torah-Centered Homeschooling
>To: TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG
>Subject: [TORCH-D] What did you tell your child?
>Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 12:36:45 -0800
>
>BS"D
>
>Hi all!
>
>We are leaning more and more heavily toward homeschooling, but I haven't
>made up my mind altogether as of yet. And as I do more research [...]43_1Mar200508:29:33-0500rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM 1174 41 21_Family hashkafa class11_Rivky Kahan22_rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM30_Tue, 1 Mar 2005 08:53:43 -0500571_- Just wanted to share this with the list. This past Shabbos afternoon, after
the meal, when we were all kinda lazying around the house, resting in bed,
or whatever, dh announced that he's giving a hashkafa (Jewish Philosophy,
for lack of a better way to translate) class for whoever wants to come.
Class is in about 10 minutes, after dh takes a cup of coffee etc. Every
single one of us straggled over to the dining room table, and took a seat.
Two teenage daughters, seventeen year old son, and the youngest, our 8 year
old boy, and of course [...]43_1Mar200508:53:43-0500rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM 1216 144 47_Re: Homeschooling / Learning a foregin language12_Caryn Lipson24_caryn_lipson@HOTMAIL.COM30_Tue, 1 Mar 2005 09:15:26 -0500536_iso-8859-1 Thanks again Aviva and Rivky for your responses regarding the homeschooling Judaic subjects, etc. We took my daughter out of school as of yesterday (Monday). In the middle of last night it occurred to me that I now have an enormous responsibility for her education and have to make much more time for doing things with her and taking her places. And with her out of school as well as my son - I'll have twice the demands on my time. I realize this was the way it was before they went to school and had since then - like [...]45_1Mar200509:15:26-0500caryn_lipson@HOTMAIL.COM 1361 55 33_Re: What did you tell your child?11_Rivky Kahan22_rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM30_Tue, 1 Mar 2005 09:05:14 -0500645_- >From: Nicole Brackman
>Reply-To: Torah-Centered Homeschooling
>To: TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG
>Subject: [TORCH-D] What did you tell your child?
>Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 12:36:45 -0800
>
>BS"D
>
>Hi all!
>
>We are leaning more and more heavily toward homeschooling, but I haven't
>made up my mind altogether as of yet.

I just sent a post asking you why you have decided to homeschool her, but
now i notice that you said you have not made up your mind yet. Oh.
So you were just looking for some input as to what to tell your daughter
incase you do decide [...]43_1Mar200509:05:14-0500rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM 1417 106 26_just started homeschooling13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM30_Tue, 1 Mar 2005 10:38:57 -0800560_us-ascii How exciting, Caryn! Yes, it is a huge responsibility, but you get used to it and it loses its power to intimidate. Taking on that responsibility is also hugely empowering, and builds an inner confidence and trust in one's self that isn't there when you pass the job on to others to do. I remember the almost awe I felt at our first official day, when I was super conscious of having made a decision to do things differently than everyone else, which was underscored by my kids sitting in the house when everyone else's were being rushed out. It [...]43_1Mar200510:38:57-0800avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 1524 200 33_Biblical Hebrew vx Modern Hebrew.12_Rena Weisman19_renaweisman@COX.NET30_Tue, 1 Mar 2005 11:54:44 -0700561_us-ascii Re: Wow! I never liked the way my kids were being taught Chumash - phrase
by phrase. But this makes so much sense - teach them the language first!
Then they would understand the Davening too. Boy, this is so simple but the
schools never do this and silly me...I would have never thought of this
either. Now I know what to do with my daughter - concentrate on learning
the Hebrew for the time being. Maybe then the Chumash, Davening, etc. would
all be a pleasure instead of a chore. And, this would probably help my son,
also. [...]40_1Mar200511:54:44-0700renaweisman@COX.NET 1725 34 47_Re: Homeschooling / Learning a foregin language11_Rivky Kahan22_rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM30_Tue, 1 Mar 2005 15:43:31 -0500586_- >09:15:26 -0500
>
>Thanks again Aviva and Rivky for your responses regarding the homeschooling
>Judaic subjects, etc. We took my daughter out of school as of yesterday
>(Monday).

I must ask you, how did you go about telling her teachers that she is not
comming back to school? This is the part i always dread. The reaction of
shock and horror is never something i look forward to. I will never forget
when i took my daughter out of school years ago, the snide "I hope you know
what you're doing!" response i got. thankfuly i dont remember who said [...]43_1Mar200515:43:31-0500rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM 1760 118 30_Re: just started homeschooling11_Rivky Kahan22_rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM30_Tue, 1 Mar 2005 15:50:56 -0500594_- BTW Aviva, i was just thinking about you the other day. You had mentioned on
one of your posts that there are some disadvantages to homeschooling and
that you suspect that your kids may not be as good as others in sitting
through something boring etc. The other day my daughter who has been
homeschooled for years was asking her sister and me "When i go to lectures,
do i yawn too much?...ya think i like wiggle around too much? ...maybe it's
because i'm homeschooled..." I couldnt help think to myself "Oh that's so
funny-that's just what Aviva was saying!..."
[...]43_1Mar200515:50:56-0500rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM 1879 60 33_is wiggling a hsing disadvantage?13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM30_Tue, 1 Mar 2005 14:52:38 -0800344_us-ascii It is more likely that your daughter wiggles because she is kinesthetic or uninterested in the topic at hand than because she is a homeschooler. My response that you referred to was actually intended tongue in cheek, though I do think the hsers have less internal tolerance for typical academic settings that don't interest them. [...]43_1Mar200514:52:38-0800avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 1940 47 34_Off-topic - Homebirthing Questions13_Barbara Mazor19_barbmazor@YAHOO.COM30_Tue, 1 Mar 2005 15:19:28 -0800424_us-ascii Rivky is curious about homebirthing and sent in some questions regarding it. However, I don't feel the topic is for this list, so anyone wishing to correspond with her on this and answer her questions please write to Rivky directly.

Rivky Kahan"

Barbara

---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. [...]40_1Mar200515:19:28-0800barbmazor@YAHOO.COM 1988 62 26_Pal-Talk Class Announcment13_Barbara Mazor19_barbmazor@YAHOO.COM30_Tue, 1 Mar 2005 15:36:35 -0800593_us-ascii Moriah has forwarded the following course announcement to the list:

>>I am very excited to let you know we are beginning a daily learning =
program of Gemmorah Brochos along with Siddur, relevant laws and =
inspiring application with the writings of Rabbi Moshe Chaim Lazzato. =
The program will start Wednesday March 2nd at 3:30 pm EST and will go =
for at least 1 1/2 hours. There will be some flexibility in time as our =
group forms. Our webpage will be updated ASAP with other technical =
advancements, the learning is however starting immediately. [...]40_1Mar200515:36:35-0800barbmazor@YAHOO.COM 2051 384 66_Re: JP/Respler column letter about overworked mother of young kids12_Caryn Lipson24_caryn_lipson@HOTMAIL.COM30_Tue, 1 Mar 2005 09:35:19 -0500417_iso-8859-1 Re:JP/Respler column letter about overworked mother oI also agree that the response to the letter was inadequate and in terms of real help - empty. Cutting back on her work and taking a more relaxed attitude towards running her house and managing the kids, would certainly help. It's more important to feel good about her kids than doing everything perfectly and being worn out by taking on too much. [...]45_1Mar200509:35:19-0500caryn_lipson@HOTMAIL.COM 2436 229 66_Re: JP/Respler column letter about overworked mother of young kids14_Bill Bernstein27_billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET30_Tue, 1 Mar 2005 20:37:14 -0600601_iso-8859-1 Re:JP/Respler column letter about overworked mother oSomeone once commented to me (maybe it was an article somewhere) that in Europe certain people had much more status than here and certain people had much less than here. For example, the town rabbi or "shtot rov" pretty much ruled the place. Even where there was a yeshiva or even a sitting beis din the rosh yeshiva did not interfere with the rov's decisions.
Contrast that with today where the Rosh Yeshiva will often interfere in communities that he has never set foot in, much less lives in. His students and former students [...]48_1Mar200520:37:14-0600billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET 2666 670 66_Re: JP/Respler column letter about overworked mother of young kids8_S Sloman18_ssloman@NETLAB.COM30_Tue, 1 Mar 2005 23:52:46 -0500495_US-ASCII Sounds that way to me, too.

But it goes beyond that.

I've heard almost this identical advice given to girls about how to
treat their husbands.

His learning should take priority over everything else. You shouldn't
ask him to do chores around the house, because it takes away from his
learning. You shouldn't get upset with him if he leaves his seforim all
over the dining room table, etc. Just cater to him so he can spend all
his time learning. [...]39_1Mar200523:52:46-0500ssloman@NETLAB.COM 3337 95 37_Re: is wiggling a hsing disadvantage?11_Rivky Kahan22_rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM30_Wed, 2 Mar 2005 00:04:23 -0500563_- Oh-well i didnt know that your response that i was referring to was meant
tounge in cheek. When i heard my daughter's comment, i actually had taken
what you said quite seriously. I dont know that it is such an advantage to
know how to sit through boring lectures and pretend to be interested. I mean
its hard to picture sending a kid to school just so that they could learn
this important skill. (and yes, just to make sure we are understanding each
other, "important skill" IS meant toungue in cheek) But it did make sense to
me that [...]43_2Mar200500:04:23-0500rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM 3433 19 18_Re: hashkafa class19_Mrs. Moriah Chesler25_merilyn@CHESLER.ABSOL.COM30_Wed, 2 Mar 2005 02:21:05 -0500571_- I like Michtav Mi'eliyahu, but I only read it in English. I finished the
1st volume (English version), but I should go back and continue the rest
of the volume. It's a very very good resource for anyone who wants to
improve themselves, spiritually.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by
Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org,
a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and
an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...]46_2Mar200502:21:05-0500merilyn@CHESLER.ABSOL.COM 3453 44 29_Re: biblical vs modern hebrew19_Mrs. Moriah Chesler25_merilyn@CHESLER.ABSOL.COM30_Wed, 2 Mar 2005 02:28:05 -0500460_- Absolutely, there's a difference, but I was intimated
jumping in Biblical HEberw directly, with no frame of reference, except the
English translation. After learning Modern Hebrew, I was much more
comfortable tackling the Biblical, because I have familiarised myself with
much of the verb-noun
vocabulary. I just had to learn the Chumash specific
grammar rules (the reversing vavs mostly) and I was more relaxed and more
confident. [...]46_2Mar200502:28:05-0500merilyn@CHESLER.ABSOL.COM 3498 35 41_Re: shidduchim/schooling in jewish papers14_Malkie Swidler24_swidler@NETVISION.NET.IL30_Wed, 2 Mar 2005 11:50:51 +0200400_us-ascii >
> I know that it is counterintuitive advice, having trouble/feelnig
> overwhelmed with your kids, spend MORE time with them. but it works.

Rena-- this is very true for my family. When I am unavailable to the
kids-- even though I'm around, like when I'm working on a project and
even more so when I am very ill and emotionally unavailable, the kids
fight. A lot. [...]45_2Mar200511:50:51+0200swidler@NETVISION.NET.IL 3534 46 37_Re: Biblical Hebrew vx Modern Hebrew.17_Rachel Turniansky28_rachelturniansky@HOTMAIL.COM30_Wed, 2 Mar 2005 08:31:07 -0500671_- >From: Rena Weisman
>Reply-To: Torah-Centered Homeschooling
>To: TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG
>Subject: [TORCH-D] Biblical Hebrew vx Modern Hebrew.
>Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 11:54:44 -0700
>
>Re: Wow! I never liked the way my kids were being taught Chumash - phrase
>by phrase. But this makes so much sense - teach them the language first!
>Then they would understand the Davening too. Boy, this is so simple but the
>schools never do this and silly me>>being. Maybe then the Chumash,
>Davening, etc. would all be a
>>pleasure instead of a chore. And, this would probably help my son, also.>>
>> [...]49_2Mar200508:31:07-0500rachelturniansky@HOTMAIL.COM 3581 687 66_Re: JP/Respler column letter about overworked mother of young kids14_Bill Bernstein27_billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET30_Wed, 2 Mar 2005 09:32:26 -0600604_iso-8859-1 Re:JP/Respler column letter about overworked mother oShoshana,
I think this comes from the stories of how, e.g. Mrs. Feinstein treated Reb Moshe zt'l. And I think the advice is very good and commendable and should be followed. But if and only if the husband/son is at the level of talent and dedication of Reb Moshe. If not then the advice is lousy.
Similarly, I have nothing against people learning in kollel as long as they are actually doing that, will benefit from continuing those studies, and will bring something to klal Yisroel that outweighs the very great burden the pose [...]48_2Mar200509:32:26-0600billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET 4269 173 66_Re: JP/Respler column letter about overworked mother of young kids13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM30_Wed, 2 Mar 2005 14:27:50 -0800534_us-ascii Whoa, Shoshana, I have too much to say about this! I am nodding in agreement as I read. This was the advice I got and lived out for years, which both my husband and I regret. We both feel if we had followed my gut instincts on certain core issues instead of bowing to 'his learning before all else', we would be better off in many ways today. Well, I reclaimed my independent mind (I always had it, just didn't use it enough because I feared being seen as not frum enough). I read something good from Dave Ramsey today, [...]43_2Mar200514:27:50-0800avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 4443 107 10_Re: kollel13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM30_Wed, 2 Mar 2005 14:32:52 -0800875_us-ascii Bill, what are you are referring to in "outweighs the very great burden they pose to their families, the kahal, and society in general"?

Avivah

Bill Bernstein wrote:

@font-face { font-family: Tahoma;}@font-face { font-family: Comic Sans MS;}@page Section1 {size: 8.5in 11.0in; margin: 1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in; mso-header-margin: .5in; mso-footer-margin: .5in; mso-paper-source: 0; }P.MsoNormal { FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman"; mso-style-parent: ""; mso-pagination: widow-orphan; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"}LI.MsoNormal { FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman"; mso-style-parent: ""; mso-pagination: widow-orphan; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"}DIV.MsoNormal { FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: [...]43_2Mar200514:32:52-0800avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 4551 359 66_Re: JP/Respler column letter about overworked mother of young kids8_S Sloman18_ssloman@NETLAB.COM30_Wed, 2 Mar 2005 20:03:21 -0500701_US-ASCII Avivah, thank you so much for sharing that. I understand completely.

Shoshana Sloman
torch-d listowner

-----Original Message-----
From: Torah-Centered Homeschooling [mailto:TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG] On
Behalf Of Avivah Werner
Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2005 5:28 PM
To: TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG
Subject: Re: [TORCH-D] JP/Respler column letter about overworked mother
of young kids

Whoa, Shoshana, I have too much to say about this! I am nodding in
agreement as I read. This was the advice I got and lived out for years,
which both my husband and I regret. We both feel if we had followed my
gut instincts on certain core issues instead of bowing [...]39_2Mar200520:03:21-0500ssloman@NETLAB.COM 4911 109 34_shidduchim, seminaries and yeshiva11_Susan Lapin20_suelap@EARTHLINK.NET30_Wed, 2 Mar 2005 15:19:48 -0800599_iso-8859-1 I go away for a few weeks and come back to find that there have been any
number of fascinating discussions while I was gone. I don't know where to
begin, so let me just jump in and hope this doesn't end up as an endless
ramble.

We are in the seminary/yeshiva/high school and shidduch parsha with various
children. I am absolutely not objective at all on these subjects and
actually pretty emotional. Not only do I hate what my marriage aged
daughters are being put through, but my daughters' friends and friends'
daughters are also going through the same [...]41_2Mar200515:19:48-0800suelap@EARTHLINK.NET 5021 234 10_Re: kollel14_Bill Bernstein27_billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET30_Wed, 2 Mar 2005 17:43:37 -06000_48_2Mar200517:43:37-0600billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET 5256 125 66_Re: JP/Respler column letter about overworked mother of young kids11_Susan Lapin20_suelap@EARTHLINK.NET30_Wed, 2 Mar 2005 16:09:47 -0800399_iso-8859-1 Re:JP/Respler column letter about overworked mother o
>>> This "advice" seems to me merely a continuation of an attitude that
parents are there to breed the child, take care of him until the educational
system can take over, and then sit back and pay tuition and be thankful they
have such dedicated rebbeim to teach their children. Feh! is all I can say
to that. <<< [...]41_2Mar200516:09:47-0800suelap@EARTHLINK.NET 5382 109 37_Re: Biblical Hebrew vx Modern Hebrew.12_Caryn Lipson24_caryn_lipson@HOTMAIL.COM30_Wed, 2 Mar 2005 08:45:03 -0500464_iso-8859-1 I know that Biblical Hebrew is different, but enough is the same that opening up a sefer to learn would be a lot easier if many of the words were familiar and they would be able to recognize different forms of the same shoresh. I was taught Ivrit B'Ivrit for 3rd through 10th grade, so when I went to Israel after college I could get around but what at a definite disadvantage since it was not modern and a lot of the everyday words I didn't know. [...]45_2Mar200508:45:03-0500caryn_lipson@HOTMAIL.COM 5492 25 24_Re: hs without judgement12_Caryn Lipson24_caryn_lipson@HOTMAIL.COM30_Wed, 2 Mar 2005 08:34:48 -0500587_iso-8859-1 Maybe they should reevaluate it up!

Caryn

My mother sent me a New Yorker cartoon where an interviewer (potential
employer) says to the person interviewing "We will have to reevaluate your
MBA based on the fact that you were homeschooled." Ha Ha

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by
Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org,
a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and
an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...]45_2Mar200508:34:48-0500caryn_lipson@HOTMAIL.COM 5518 205 37_Re: is wiggling a hsing disadvantage?12_Caryn Lipson24_caryn_lipson@HOTMAIL.COM30_Wed, 2 Mar 2005 21:07:50 -0500471_iso-8859-1 People who sit quietly through boring lectures are generally quiet because they are sleeping (unless they snore!) or thinking about other things.

Rabbi Kelemen of To Kindle A Soul discussed in a seminar a "shtender" that was invented and patented by someone for kids to be able to stand in class because some kids need to move around more than others. Apparently it's very popular.`````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` [...]45_2Mar200521:07:50-0500caryn_lipson@HOTMAIL.COM 5724 54 37_Re: is wiggling a hsing disadvantage?18_Benjamin H Dickman19_bdickman@LUCENT.COM30_Wed, 2 Mar 2005 22:41:42 -0500592_us-ascii bs'd
Reminds me of a funny piece I saw in MAD magazine a long time ago:

"Sitting is important in standing out. Outstanding sitting will
sit you in good standing."

Adar! Yesss!
Benzion Dickman

On 3/2/2005 12:04 AM, Rivky Kahan wrote:
> Oh-well i didnt know that your response that i was referring to was meant
> tounge in cheek. When i heard my daughter's comment, i actually had taken
> what you said quite seriously. I dont know that it is such an advantage to
> know how to sit through boring lectures and pretend to be interested. I [...]40_2Mar200522:41:42-0500bdickman@LUCENT.COM 5779 194 10_Re: kollel13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM30_Thu, 3 Mar 2005 04:06:10 -0800510_us-ascii I agree with you, Bill. As I read your post, I feel two voices in my head, the one that agrees strongly with you, and the one that was told exactly the opposite for many years. I wish that in my time in seminary and the yeshiva world there had been room for discussion on this issue - I was the only one in my class to ask questions about the economics of kollel. I was answered in more spiritual terms, which is that Torah learning is the real world, it is the world around us that is a facade. [...]43_3Mar200504:06:10-0800avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 5974 165 21_Re: Yeshiva in Israel12_Caryn Lipson24_caryn_lipson@HOTMAIL.COM30_Thu, 3 Mar 2005 08:34:45 -0500376_iso-8859-1 Re:JP/Respler column letter about overworked mother oWhy do frum schools think it's okay to instill in children a lack of derech eretz for their parents? This is obviously the result if the schools tell the kids: that their parents' views and opinions don't matter. and ...the attitude is one of blatant disregard for parents, except in asking them for money. [...]45_3Mar200508:34:45-0500caryn_lipson@HOTMAIL.COM 6140 109 18_yeshiva schedules?0_17_RENALEVIN@AOL.COM28_Thu, 3 Mar 2005 09:10:02 EST514_US-ASCII In a message dated 3/3/05 1:58:00 AM Eastern Standard Time,
LISTSERV@SHAMASH.ORG writes:

> BTW, I should have mentioned the article of two weeks ago in =
> Hamodia. I can't find it at the moment, but a Rabbi wrote about sending =
> boys to Yeshiva (mesivta). He says that they should get up at 6:30 am to =
> be out of the house at 7:30. When they come home at 10:00 pm they are =
> going to be worn out. As a parent you should have a candy bar or bag of =
> chips ready for [...]36_3Mar200509:10:02ESTRENALEVIN@AOL.COM 6250 57 23_link to parsha website?13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM30_Thu, 3 Mar 2005 09:17:14 -0800437_us-ascii Grrrr! I am so totally exasperated with trying to find something on the archives!!!

Barbara, what was the link you recently posted to a website that had the parsha broken up into seven parts - each day covered one aliya? I thought I saved it to my list of favorites, but can't find it now, so I suppose I didn't. At the time you linked it, I took a look at it and thought it would be a useful resource for the kids. [...]43_3Mar200509:17:14-0800avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 6308 398 27_Re: link to parsha website?8_S Sloman18_ssloman@NETLAB.COM30_Thu, 3 Mar 2005 12:30:09 -0500548_US-ASCII Concerning the archives-I don't think they are fully updated yet. For
example, there is only one message listed for 9/04, and one for 10/04.
(Previously they were very mixed up, chronologically, but Shamash seems
to have fixed that.)

Shoshana Sloman
torch-d listowner

-----Original Message-----
From: Torah-Centered Homeschooling [mailto:TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG] On
Behalf Of Avivah Werner
Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 12:17 PM
To: TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG
Subject: [TORCH-D] link to parsha website? [...]39_3Mar200512:30:09-0500ssloman@NETLAB.COM 6707 33 27_Re: link to parsha website?13_Barbara Mazor19_barbmazor@YAHOO.COM30_Thu, 3 Mar 2005 12:01:20 -0800698_us-ascii >>Barbara, what was the link you recently posted to a
> website that had the parsha broken up into seven
> parts - each day covered one aliya?<<

http://www.amitchildren.org/tanint.asp

B.

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The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by
Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org,
a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and
an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...]40_3Mar200512:01:20-0800barbmazor@YAHOO.COM 6741 74 22_Re: yeshiva schedules?11_Rivky Kahan22_rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM30_Thu, 3 Mar 2005 19:31:50 -0500675_- >From: RENALEVIN@AOL.COM
>Reply-To: Torah-Centered Homeschooling
>To: TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG
>Subject: [TORCH-D] yeshiva schedules?
>Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 09:10:02 EST
>

> >
>
>Sorry I missed this article, will have to look in my back issues. At 10:30
>at
>night, my son goes to the basement to iron his shirt for the next day. He
>takes the cordless phone with him cuz that's when his friends come home
>from
>yeshiva and he can talk to them.
>
>This is the downside to homeschooling. No social life? Not because of
>homeschooling, but because his friends are not available to socialize with
[...]43_3Mar200519:31:50-0500rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM 6816 227 25_Re: kollel and hschooling11_Susan Lapin20_suelap@EARTHLINK.NET30_Thu, 3 Mar 2005 16:34:01 -0800573_iso-8859-1 >>> I see now that in this area, like all others, you must maintain a sense
of belief in yourself and not rely on others to do your thinking for you.
<<<

Avivah,

I always find your posts fascinating. Even though we didn't see each other
often here, I do miss having you around. I was trying to figure out if a
discussion of kollel was really off topic and decided that it fits right in
because I think learning Torah is valued because it leads to living Torah.
Kollels today separates the two. In the same way, schools today [...]41_3Mar200516:34:01-0800suelap@EARTHLINK.NET 7044 39 37_Re: is wiggling a hsing disadvantage?11_Rivky Kahan22_rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM30_Thu, 3 Mar 2005 19:34:57 -0500483_- >From: Benjamin H Dickman
>Reply-To: Torah-Centered Homeschooling
>To: TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG
>Subject: Re: [TORCH-D] is wiggling a hsing disadvantage?
>Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 22:41:42 -0500
>
>bs'd
>Reminds me of a funny piece I saw in MAD magazine a long time ago:
>
>"Sitting is important in standing out. Outstanding sitting will
>sit you in good standing."
>
> Adar! Yesss!
> Benzion Dickman [...]43_3Mar200519:34:57-0500rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM 7084 143 38_Re: shidduchim, seminaries and yeshiva11_Rivky Kahan22_rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM30_Thu, 3 Mar 2005 19:41:36 -0500667_- Susan, thank you for this very well written and informative post. I think
this could be helpful to alot of people. rivky

>From: Susan Lapin
>Reply-To: Torah-Centered Homeschooling
>To: TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG
>Subject: [TORCH-D] shidduchim, seminaries and yeshiva
>Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 15:19:48 -0800
>
>I go away for a few weeks and come back to find that there have been any
>number of fascinating discussions while I was gone. I don't know where to
>begin, so let me just jump in and hope this doesn't end up as an endless
>ramble.
>
> We are in the seminary/yeshiva/high [...]43_3Mar200519:41:36-0500rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM 7228 43 18_Re: hashkafa class11_Rivky Kahan22_rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM30_Thu, 3 Mar 2005 19:44:51 -0500686_- I like it too and have read at least some of the English version quite a
number of years ago. I think it's called Strive for Truth, if i'm not
mistaken. Rivky

>From: "Mrs. Moriah Chesler"
>Reply-To: Torah-Centered Homeschooling
>To: TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG
>Subject: Re: [TORCH-D] hashkafa class
>Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 02:21:05 -0500
>
>I like Michtav Mi'eliyahu, but I only read it in English. I finished the
>1st volume (English version), but I should go back and continue the rest
>of the volume. It's a very very good resource for anyone who wants to
>improve themselves, spiritually.
[...]43_3Mar200519:44:51-0500rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM 7272 48 22_Re: yeshiva schedules?11_Susan Lapin20_suelap@EARTHLINK.NET30_Thu, 3 Mar 2005 16:51:04 -0800425_iso-8859-1 >>>But sometimes it crosses
my mind how the older our kid's peers get the more and more their social
life revolves around school. The kids/teens see each other all day in
school. After the long school day is over, they have tests to study for, and
dont have time to socialize outside of studying for their tests with their
friends. Where does this leave our children, who dont go to school?<<< [...]41_3Mar200516:51:04-0800suelap@EARTHLINK.NET 7321 105 37_Re: is wiggling a hsing disadvantage?11_Rivky Kahan22_rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM30_Thu, 3 Mar 2005 19:38:00 -0500730_- >From: Caryn Lipson
>Reply-To: Torah-Centered Homeschooling
>To: TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG
>Subject: Re: [TORCH-D] is wiggling a hsing disadvantage?
>Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 21:07:50 -0500

See my inserted comments.
>
>
>People who sit quietly through boring lectures are generally quiet because
>they are sleeping (unless they snore!) or thinking about other things.

Righto!!! Thats how they survive.
>
>Rabbi Kelemen of To Kindle A Soul discussed in a seminar a "shtender" that
>was invented and patented by someone for kids to be able to stand in class
>because some kids need to move around more than others. Apparently it's
[...]43_3Mar200519:38:00-0500rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM 7427 136 25_Re: kollel and hschooling13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM30_Thu, 3 Mar 2005 20:07:41 -0800542_us-ascii I always find your posts fascinating. Even though we didn't see each other often here, I do miss having you around.

I feel the same way, Susan - actually, just this morning my husband told me that he knows someone in Olney who will put us up for Shabbos there next time you visit Rebecca, so let me know when you are planning a trip! That is, if you aren't too busy playing with your grandchildren for a social visit!
I think learning Torah is valued because it leads to living Torah. Kollels today separates the two. [...]43_3Mar200520:07:41-0800avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 7564 47 37_Re: is wiggling a hsing disadvantage?18_Benjamin H Dickman19_bdickman@LUCENT.COM30_Thu, 3 Mar 2005 22:43:43 -0500746_us-ascii bs'd
The point is that students retain what interests them.
I remember my funny teachers only. The major event
in my school week was discussing and re-enacting the
previous night's episode of "The Man From U.N.C.L.E."
with my classmates.

Benzion Dickman

On 3/3/2005 7:34 PM, Rivky Kahan wrote:
>>From: Benjamin H Dickman
>>Reply-To: Torah-Centered Homeschooling
>>To: TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG
>>Subject: Re: [TORCH-D] is wiggling a hsing disadvantage?
>>Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 22:41:42 -0500
>>
>>bs'd
>>Reminds me of a funny piece I saw in MAD magazine a long time ago:
>>
>>"Sitting is important in standing out. Outstanding sitting [...]40_3Mar200522:43:43-0500bdickman@LUCENT.COM 7612 125 37_Re: is wiggling a hsing disadvantage?12_Caryn Lipson24_caryn_lipson@HOTMAIL.COM30_Fri, 4 Mar 2005 06:55:59 -0500425_iso-8859-1 I can't give you the basics of the "shtender" - I'm not sure if it's in his
book, which I haven't finished reading, but he did describe it when we heard
him speak. However, if what you want is to do other things than what the
teacher is doing, all you need is a text book held up to hide your comic
book in and unless the teacher walks around the class or calls on you,
he/she will never know. [...]45_4Mar200506:55:59-0500caryn_lipson@HOTMAIL.COM 7738 80 22_Re: yeshiva schedules?12_Caryn Lipson24_caryn_lipson@HOTMAIL.COM30_Fri, 4 Mar 2005 07:27:18 -0500443_iso-8859-1 Re:> >>>But sometimes it crosses
> my mind how the older our kid's peers get the more and more their social
> life revolves around school. The kids/teens see each other all day in
> school. After the long school day is over, they have tests to study for,
and
> dont have time to socialize outside of studying for their tests with their
> friends. Where does this leave our children, who dont go to school?<<< [...]45_4Mar200507:27:18-0500caryn_lipson@HOTMAIL.COM 7819 243 25_Re: kollel and hschooling11_Rivky Kahan22_rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM30_Fri, 4 Mar 2005 07:59:52 -0500572_- Okay enough! I'm really getting tired of reading all this kollel bashing
here.I dont have any great words of wisdom to share one way or another about
this subject. My husband is one of those guys that has been described here
as "worst of all" leaving kollel after learning for about 5 years. He's a
good learner, has worked hard to become a good learner, is very into
learning, and would have liked to stay in kollel forever. This was not
possible however, because Hashem sent us a child with a severe disability,
and this to a large extent is [...]43_4Mar200507:59:52-0500rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM 8063 353 25_Re: kollel and hschooling13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM30_Fri, 4 Mar 2005 07:29:53 -0800571_us-ascii It really wasn't my intent to bash kollel at all - almost all of my closest friends in Israel are married to men still learning, and they are wonderful people, every single one. I have never seen the level of good middos community wise that I saw in the yeshiva world (doesn't mean that they aren't seen other places, just I wasn't exposed to those communities). The reality is that the higher you reach and the more idealistically you speak, the more is expected of you and the more harshly you are judged. (My husband didn't expect his college professors [...]43_4Mar200507:29:53-0800avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 8417 156 25_Re: kollel and hschooling14_Bill Bernstein27_billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET30_Fri, 4 Mar 2005 09:25:11 -06000_48_4Mar200509:25:11-0600billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET 8574 42 25_Re: kollel and hschooling14_Bill Bernstein27_billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET30_Fri, 4 Mar 2005 09:46:24 -06000_48_4Mar200509:46:24-0600billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET 8617 47 73_The Vilna Gaon and the Dubner Maggid:was: [TORCH-D] kollel and hschooling18_Benjamin H Dickman19_bdickman@LUCENT.COM30_Fri, 4 Mar 2005 13:10:53 -0500599_us-ascii bs'd
Avivah,

The Vilna Gaon asked the Dubner Maggid for the mussar,
and your quote was the Dubner Maggid's mussar. Then
the Gaon replied "Ich bin nicht a kunzmacher"
{I'm not into doing tricks}. The Gaon held that
the way he spent his time was 100% good, and he wasn't
looking to be tested.

kol tuv,
Benzion Dickman

On 3/4/2005 10:29 AM, Avivah Werner wrote:
> When I hear your son's remark, it makes me very uncomfortable, because
> to me it speaks of a limited world view that hasn't yet been tested.
> His responses are the ones I [...]40_4Mar200513:10:53-0500bdickman@LUCENT.COM 8665 91 77_Re: The Vilna Gaon and the Dubner Maggid:was: [TORCH-D] kollel and hschooling13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM30_Fri, 4 Mar 2005 11:47:06 -0800422_us-ascii Thanks for the correction - I thought the Kotzker part was wrong, since it didn't fit what he is known for (eg, where is H-shem? Wherever a person lets him in). The Gaon may have held that the way he spent his time was appropriate, and I am certainly not questioning that. My point was that someone as great as the Dubna Maggid made the statement questioning how he was spending his time, not Avivah Werner. [...]43_4Mar200511:47:06-0800avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 8757 62 43_Re: dorming and staying connected to family13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM30_Fri, 4 Mar 2005 12:10:48 -0800546_us-ascii We sent our 11 yo son to sleepaway camp for three weeks this past summer. The camp was very good, they stressed values we think are important, but when he came home, it took him 2 weeks to reacclimate to life in our home. We had virtually no contact with him during that entire time - we wrote letters and emails, but received only one postcard (about four sentences long), and of course camps don't allow kids to speak with their nefarious parents. I told my husband privately that I really wondered if it was worth it to send him [...]43_4Mar200512:10:48-0800avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 8820 93 77_Re: The Vilna Gaon and the Dubner Maggid:was: [TORCH-D] kollel and hschooling18_Benjamin H Dickman19_bdickman@LUCENT.COM30_Fri, 4 Mar 2005 15:04:46 -0500569_us-ascii bs'd
The Dubner Maggid didn't just up and question the Gaon, by the way.
The Gaon pressed him strongly for mussar. Give credit to
the Maggid for being able to come up with *any* mussar for the Gaon.

good Shabbos,
Benzion Dickman

On 3/4/2005 2:47 PM, Avivah Werner wrote:
> Thanks for the correction - I thought the Kotzker part was wrong, since
> it didn't fit what he is known for (eg, where is H-shem? Wherever a
> person lets him in). The Gaon may have held that the way he spent his
> time was appropriate, and I [...]40_4Mar200515:04:46-0500bdickman@LUCENT.COM 8914 68 12_Dubna Maggid13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM30_Fri, 4 Mar 2005 12:32:11 -0800521_us-ascii Okay, okay - I see that I should have just left out this story. It seems to be obscuring any other points that I made. Yes, I know the entire story, I was only referencing the part that came to mind as I was writing. I am not saying that the Dubna Maggid agrees with me or not, I was just repeating over what he said. I will give credit to anyone in the story for doing anything that a person wants to credit them with - they were both tremendous tzaddikim, we can't understand their greatness, they had no [...]43_4Mar200512:32:11-0800avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 8983 351 22_Torch-d Privacy Policy8_S Sloman18_ssloman@NETLAB.COM30_Sat, 5 Mar 2005 22:09:46 -0500590_us-ascii It has come to my attention that I have been neglecting to include our
privacy policy in the monthly reminders!

Please be aware of the following:

---
PRIVACY

Because one of the functions of this list is to provide support to
people who have experienced negative reactions to their choice to
homeschool, and those who aren't happy with the available choices, we
may sometimes discuss unpleasant behavior of others toward us, or
criticisms of mainstream systems. Please be sure to leave out names and
particulars, to avoid loshon hara. [...]39_5Mar200522:09:46-0500ssloman@NETLAB.COM 9335 133 20_schools versus home?0_17_RENALEVIN@AOL.COM28_Sun, 6 Mar 2005 00:18:26 EST454_US-ASCII In a message dated 3/2/05 1:57:38 AM Eastern Standard Time,
LISTSERV@SHAMASH.ORG writes:

> This "advice" seems to me merely a continuation of an attitude that =
> parents are there to breed the child, take care of him until the =
> educational system can take over, and then sit back and pay tuition and =
> be thankful they have such dedicated rebbeim to teach their children. =
> Feh! is all I can say to that.
> [...]36_6Mar200500:18:26ESTRENALEVIN@AOL.COM 9469 67 9_archives?0_17_RENALEVIN@AOL.COM28_Sun, 6 Mar 2005 01:19:35 EST448_US-ASCII my computer froze and crashed while i was catching up on digest e-mail for
the week (the kids have been sick and I have been super busy).when I brought my
computer back up, the e-mail digets that I had been reading had been deleted.
(sigh).

anyway, I am needing posts from 03/2 to 03/3. was going to check archives,
but now I see that you guys are posting that the archives are not working well
and not updated. [...]36_6Mar200501:19:35ESTRENALEVIN@AOL.COM 9537 254 14_socialization?0_17_RENALEVIN@AOL.COM28_Sun, 6 Mar 2005 01:40:52 EST484_US-ASCII In a message dated 3/4/05 1:57:48 AM Eastern Standard Time,
LISTSERV@SHAMASH.ORG writes:

> Does this somehow make you feel that he is
> not quite part of "the group"? If so, does this bother you? Does it bother
> him? What do you make of all this? Rivky
>

This touches a major nerve for me right now, since we are in the midst of
the "what am I going to do with my life now that I am a high school senior and I
have to get a life?" blues [...]36_6Mar200501:40:52ESTRENALEVIN@AOL.COM 9792 137 15_more on kollel?0_17_RENALEVIN@AOL.COM28_Sun, 6 Mar 2005 02:07:00 EST360_US-ASCII one more thing.....

we had invited some new neighbors over for lunch. This is a family that also
had the husband learning in kollel for a number of years, he is now strugging
with parnassah after he left the world of kollel/chinuch, his kids are getting
older, K"H he has a large family, and so on and so on. very familiar story. [...]36_6Mar200502:07:00ESTRENALEVIN@AOL.COM 9930 152 36_Re: family life versus yeshiva life?0_17_RENALEVIN@AOL.COM28_Sun, 6 Mar 2005 02:20:46 EST527_US-ASCII In a message dated 3/5/05 1:58:12 AM Eastern Standard Time,
LISTSERV@SHAMASH.ORG writes:

> I'd be curious to know what these kids are like when they come home and/or
> are finished with yeshiva. Do they have a strong relationship with their
> parents/family? Do their parents know them, do they turn to their parents
> for support and guidance? Do they know (remember) how to be part of a family
> and contribute? Or are they home so little, that they are practically
> guests?
>
> [...]36_6Mar200502:20:46ESTRENALEVIN@AOL.COM 10083 53 6_kollel13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM30_Sun, 6 Mar 2005 07:37:53 -0800554_us-ascii My post about kollel was a sharing of some of my very deep feelings about some decisions we made in the past, not an excuse for others to jump on the bandwagon and criticize a world they haven't been part of and have always looked down on. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, and everyone is entitled to express it - but be respectful. I am not forwarding posts to the list that have a dismissive and disdainful tone about others, including those in kollel. The fact that there are problems in the yeshiva world doesn't mean that there are [...]43_6Mar200507:37:53-0800avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 10137 41 22_Davvening for the kids14_Bill Bernstein27_billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET30_Sun, 6 Mar 2005 09:42:47 -0600598_ISO-8859-1 Boy, the kollel thread really hit a nerve with some people. In a way
I'm sorry I weighed in on it but I have very strong feelings based on
the overall economics of it and how it affects the Jewish community as a
whole. But putting that aside for now....
One of the "gedolim" whose work I truly admire and respect for its
incredible insight is Rav Shlomo Wolbe. I maybe have mentioned his
sefer Zariyah uBinyan b'Chinuch (I dont remember the English
translation's title). In the sefer he mentions an important part of
parenting, davening for the children. He [...]48_6Mar200509:42:47-0600billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET 10179 487 10_Re: kollel8_S Sloman18_ssloman@NETLAB.COM30_Sun, 6 Mar 2005 10:51:26 -0500345_us-ascii I'm sure none of our listmembers are ill-willed toward kollel men, or
any other Jews. You may be sensing some resentment that those who are
not full-time learners have for being made to feel inferior on a regular
basis. Perhaps they are relieved that even those in the yeshivah world
can admit that there are problems. [...]39_6Mar200510:51:26-0500ssloman@NETLAB.COM 10667 391 25_Re: kollel and hschooling16_Avigayil Simpson26_avigayil_simpson@YAHOO.COM30_Sat, 5 Mar 2005 21:34:52 -0800395_us-ascii Hello,

Your comment about kollel being a "men's club" reeeeeaaaalllly hit home and is the second time in my "frum career" that I have heard kollel and yeshiva described so. No wonder marriage is often a shock for some of these guys! Women are obligated to take "kallah classes" before marriage. Why are the men not equally obligated to undergo intensive "baal classes"????? [...]47_5Mar200521:34:52-0800avigayil_simpson@YAHOO.COM 11059 61 10_Re: kollel13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM30_Sun, 6 Mar 2005 08:07:34 -0800582_us-ascii I didn't actually refer to kollel as a 'men's club' - I used only the word 'club' and the purpose was to indicate a group. So I guess you better adjust your count to only having heard it once described as such! :)

Men do take classes prior to marriage just like kallah classes. If the contents of those classes are satisfactory for everyone is unlikely, as there are so many things that could legitimately be discussed but the general approach, like kallah classes, is to teach halachos relevant to marriage and a basic hashkafic approach to marriage and one's [...]43_6Mar200508:07:34-0800avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 11121 40 43_Yeshiva on east coast: WAS "socialization?"18_Benjamin H Dickman19_bdickman@LUCENT.COM30_Sun, 6 Mar 2005 11:37:58 -0500628_us-ascii bs'd
Here in Monsey we have Kol Torah (Rav Tropper) and Ohr Someyach.
I myself did a vacation for 2 weeks at Ohr Somayach way back.
I got wonderful, personal attention. Really good guys, including
older men who were getting seriously into learning for the first time.
Great hasgacha: the rebbeim are primarily concerned with the personality
development of the boy. He will feel part of a family, and will spend
many Shabbatot with neighboring families that are part of Ohr Somayach's
'galaxy'. If you speak with Rabbi Avraham Braun, mention my name.
Their office number:
845-425-1370 [...]40_6Mar200511:37:58-0500bdickman@LUCENT.COM 11162 65 38_Men's pre-marriage classes: WAS kollel18_Benjamin H Dickman19_bdickman@LUCENT.COM30_Sun, 6 Mar 2005 12:04:42 -0500663_us-ascii bs'd
Dear Moderator,
I sent a null reply a few minutes ago. Sorry about that.
Here's what I meant to send:

=======================
bs'd
There is a wide spectrum of 'chathan classes'. At the minimum
they teach hilchot niddah l'maaseh. Boys should be taught
early on what is in a k'thuba {marriage contract} as part of
their understanding the foundations of Jewish marriage.
It is unfortunate that many chathanim do not understand the
obligation they are undertaking in the binding contract they
are entering. And we all know that to really prepare for the
emotional realities of marriage will require years [...]40_6Mar200512:04:42-0500bdickman@LUCENT.COM 11228 200 18_Re: socialization?11_Rivky Kahan22_rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM30_Sun, 6 Mar 2005 12:31:16 -0500561_- Oh boy. Rena. I began reading your post, with great interest. Havent
finnished it yet. I did send you a post through the list, but i dont know
that it got in. It basically said that when you approach the yeshivas, you
should not just say he's been homeschooled, but describe what he's done. Be
very specific about which mishnayos, gemoras, math science english blah blah
blah, and i hope you have some saved work to show them.
I am trying not to get too emotional and get up and start pacing around the
room when reading all of this [...]43_6Mar200512:31:16-0500rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM 11429 115 10_Re: kollel12_Caryn Lipson24_caryn_lipson@HOTMAIL.COM30_Sun, 6 Mar 2005 12:48:48 -0500617_iso-8859-1 Personally, I've appreciated the Kollel conversation because it gives an opportunity to explore feelings and observations about the kollel "lifestyle" - I think we're all affected by it in one way or another whether or not it's a personal lifestyle - but were reluctant to voice.

I think that Shoshana's response
I'm sure none of our listmembers are ill-willed toward kollel men, or any other Jews. You may be sensing some resentment that those who are not full-time learners have for being made to feel inferior on a regular basis. Perhaps they are relieved that even those in the yeshivah [...]45_6Mar200512:48:48-0500caryn_lipson@HOTMAIL.COM 11545 83 10_Re: kollel13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM30_Sun, 6 Mar 2005 10:52:28 -0800579_us-ascii I also think that Shoshana's comment is probably true. I, too, appreciate the discussion, and think it is pertinent and important. My concern about the tone of a very small minority of posts (that weren't forwarded) is that in our comfort with one another here on the list, some might have been less careful than they meant to be in expressing their views and wrote things that could easily have been seen as offensive, so I felt that a cautionary note was appropriate so that someone writing might take a second look at their post before pressing the send button. [...]43_6Mar200510:52:28-0800avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 11629 70 24_Re: schools versus home?13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM30_Sun, 6 Mar 2005 11:00:16 -0800271_us-ascii Rena, what in the world are you talking about?? You are sounding positively soppy. :) I know you pretty well and I still have to guess where you were going with these comments. I know there is a point here that I don't want to miss, so would you elaborate? [...]43_6Mar200511:00:16-0800avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 11700 55 26_Re: Davvening for the kids15_Alison Jacobson23_alisonziskind@YAHOO.COM30_Sun, 6 Mar 2005 10:59:52 -0800403_us-ascii Recently I read Career of Happiness, by Rav Avigdor
Miller. It ain't for the weak of heart, due to its
VERY strong hasgofos, but there were many wonderful
insights in it.

One point he made is that in days of yore, Jewish
mothers daavened often from their book of Techinas,
usually in Yiddish. These tefillos were part of their
every day functioning and lifeblood. [...]44_6Mar200510:59:52-0800alisonziskind@YAHOO.COM 11756 236 10_Re: kollel16_Avigayil Simpson26_avigayil_simpson@YAHOO.COM30_Sun, 6 Mar 2005 11:57:52 -0800700_us-ascii "Perhaps they are relieved that even those in the yeshivah world can admit that there are problems." Yes, and relieved that I'm not the only one who sees these problems!!!!!

S Sloman wrote:

v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}.shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
I’m sure none of our listmembers are ill-willed toward kollel men, or any other Jews. You may be sensing some resentment that those who are not full-time learners have for being made to feel inferior on a regular basis. Perhaps they are relieved that even those in the yeshivah world can admit that there are problems. [...]47_6Mar200511:57:52-0800avigayil_simpson@YAHOO.COM 11993 100 10_Re: kollel16_Avigayil Simpson26_avigayil_simpson@YAHOO.COM30_Sun, 6 Mar 2005 12:16:01 -0800590_us-ascii "Men do take classes prior to marriage just like kallah classes. If the contents of those classes are satisfactory for everyone is unlikely, as there are so many things that could legitimately be discussed but the general approach, like kallah classes, is to teach halachos relevant to marriage and a basic hashkafic approach to marriage and one's spouse. I doubt there isn't a person married today who couldn't make a personal list of things they would have found helpful to add to what they were taught, but it is a huge step that classes are taught and that marital issues [...]47_6Mar200512:16:01-0800avigayil_simpson@YAHOO.COM 12094 59 34_intellectual/interpersonal balance13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM30_Sun, 6 Mar 2005 15:00:22 -0800592_us-ascii So much emphasis seems to be placed on the book knowledge that the other aspects of honoring one's spouse seems to be sorely neglected, even ignored. It just isn't discussed, in my experience.

This is unfortunately true in many areas - when there is too much emphasis on just the technical facts, the human factor is neglected. It is a very hard balance, and one that is not being properly addressed. I think there is more concern that if someone makes a mistake in halacha, it will have serious repercussions, but there isn't enough recognition that mistakes we make in [...]43_6Mar200515:00:22-0800avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 12154 282 10_Re: kollel8_S Sloman18_ssloman@NETLAB.COM30_Sun, 6 Mar 2005 18:01:37 -0500439_us-ascii > No one said you (collective) have to agree with me!

Thank you for saying that. It's not WHAT someone says, it's HOW they
say it that's of concern in a forum of this kind.

If someone says something you (any of you) disagree with, feel free to
express your own opinion. We're allowed to make statements about our
observations. We're even allowed to be wrong! And everyone else is
allowed to say so! [...]39_6Mar200518:01:37-0500ssloman@NETLAB.COM 12437 148 10_Re: kollel14_Bill Bernstein27_billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET30_Sun, 6 Mar 2005 18:02:17 -06000_48_6Mar200518:02:17-0600billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET 12586 74 15_chosson classes13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM30_Sun, 6 Mar 2005 17:22:30 -0800417_us-ascii I agree, and further, think that even if prior to marriage people hear important messages, they don't yet have a framework to appreciate what they are hearing. Engaged couples are so sure they will always feel in love that discussion about how to respond when they don't feel like that goes in one ear and out the other - after all, that's for other people, not them, lovebirds who are floating on air! [...]43_6Mar200517:22:30-0800avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 12661 139 19_Re: chosson classes14_Bill Bernstein27_billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET30_Sun, 6 Mar 2005 19:46:44 -06000_48_6Mar200519:46:44-0600billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET 12801 55 19_Re: chosson classes18_Benjamin H Dickman19_bdickman@LUCENT.COM30_Sun, 6 Mar 2005 21:58:30 -0500407_us-ascii bs'd
When I first learned the gemara about the minhag in Shevet Yehuda for
the engagement to last one year, with the chathan living with
his in-laws-to-be during the year, I wondered why. After this
thread, it seems to make very good sense. The young man is being
given chinukh about how his bride's family interacts and what her
expectations are in interpersonal relations. [...]40_6Mar200521:58:30-0500bdickman@LUCENT.COM 12857 513 25_Re: kollel and hschooling11_Rivky Kahan22_rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM30_Sun, 6 Mar 2005 22:38:18 -0500509_- Aviva, i finally got to read your post carefuly. Every word of it. Your post
is too deep and sensitively written for me to do justice to it now, and i
wonder with all that i have on my mind lately, if i could ever do it
justice. I mean this with only sincerity (sp) not to brush you off at all.
I just want to make a few quick points off the bat- just in thinking out
loud. Hopefuly i could get back to you later with more thoughts for whatever
they may be worth.
First i will say [...]43_6Mar200522:38:18-0500rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM 13371 145 7_dorming11_Susan Lapin20_suelap@EARTHLINK.NET30_Sun, 6 Mar 2005 20:32:16 -0800577_iso-8859-1 Having had girls go to dorm schools, with one there now, I've been reading
with interest the posts about dorms and camps. I do think there might be a
sex related issue here. Aviva, it sounds like camp was overall a diminishing
experience for your son. For our girls it's been exactly the opposite. They
come back with a greater appreciation of the family and an improvement of
middos as well as meticulousness in davening etc. I think they hear over and
over, "I wish my mom would hschool me", and it starts to dawn on them that
I'm pretty [...]41_6Mar200520:32:16-0800suelap@EARTHLINK.NET 13517 145 18_Re: socialization?11_Susan Lapin20_suelap@EARTHLINK.NET30_Sun, 6 Mar 2005 20:48:49 -0800346_iso-8859-1 Rena,

>>>So....he is basically homeschooling alone. Not at all optimal. and I
think that he is beginning to regret having done it. (espcially sicne he
does not remember the pain that he was in when we decided to go down this
road, time is a wonderful healer) and he is so anxious about his future
right now.<<< [...]41_6Mar200520:48:49-0800suelap@EARTHLINK.NET 13663 105 19_Re: more on kollel?11_Susan Lapin20_suelap@EARTHLINK.NET30_Sun, 6 Mar 2005 21:08:28 -0800563_iso-8859-1 I also appreciate the open discussions on this list, and while respectful
speech is important I also think that being able to say that the emperor has
no clothes is also important. And I am one of those who get very emotional
on the topic of kollel, shidduchim, etc. because what I see going on
terrifies me and I do see it all as inter-connected.I have no animus (I
think that's the right word) to anyone learning in Kollel but I do find it
irresponsible for any adult, rosh yeshiva or not, to tell a young man or
woman that [...]41_6Mar200521:08:28-0800suelap@EARTHLINK.NET 13769 29 26_Re: Davvening for the kids11_Susan Lapin20_suelap@EARTHLINK.NET30_Sun, 6 Mar 2005 21:15:31 -0800409_iso-8859-1 >>>So as it happens, my siddur, Ksav Ashuris, has a whole section in the
back for tefillos for various occasions. One of them is titled Tefillas
Avos al banim and is relatively short (like one page). I liked it so
much I make it a point to say it every week.
But I wonder how widespread such a practice is and whether it wouldnt be
a good idea to publicize it a little more.<<< [...]41_6Mar200521:15:31-0800suelap@EARTHLINK.NET 13799 54 24_Clarification re: kollel16_Avigayil Simpson26_avigayil_simpson@YAHOO.COM30_Sun, 6 Mar 2005 23:14:29 -0800431_us-ascii Hi,

All I was trying to convey was how much I appreciate a group of women, some of whom are not taking the "let's bury our head in the sand" approach but are able to honestly voice the problems that they see this lifestyle as potentially posing. That maybe, just maybe, it's not everything "they" would like us to believe it is? At least, not for everyone? And that other "drachim" are equally valid/valuable? [...]47_6Mar200523:14:29-0800avigayil_simpson@YAHOO.COM 13854 24 35_chosson/kallah classes (re: kollel)18_Mrs Moriah Chesler25_merilyn@CHESLER.ABSOL.COM30_Mon, 7 Mar 2005 02:20:03 -0500662_- For those who might be interested, Artscroll put out 2 wonderful books
"Dear Son" and "Dear Daughter" by Rabbi Eliyahu Goldschmidt,
http://www.artscroll.com/Books/drsh.html
http://www.artscroll.com/Books/drdh.html

for husband-wife to learn how to get along with each other. They are a must
read for chosson & kallah as well.
~

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by
Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org,
a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and
an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...]46_7Mar200502:20:03-0500merilyn@CHESLER.ABSOL.COM 13879 33 25_Re: Yeshiva on east coast18_Mrs Moriah Chesler25_merilyn@CHESLER.ABSOL.COM30_Mon, 7 Mar 2005 02:23:49 -0500633_- Do you mean Kol Yaakov? (Rav Tropper) My dh went there for a short time.
Met wonderful people who remained friends and study partners.

>bs'd
>Here in Monsey we have Kol Torah (Rav Tropper) and Ohr Someyach.
>I myself did a vacation for 2 weeks at Ohr Somayach way back.
>I got wonderful, personal attention. Really good guys, including
>older men who were getting seriously into learning for the first time.
>Great hasgacha: the rebbeim are primarily concerned with the personality
>development of the boy. He will feel part of a family, and will spend
>many Shabbatot with neighboring families [...]46_7Mar200502:23:49-0500merilyn@CHESLER.ABSOL.COM 13913 39 18_Re: socialization?12_Caryn Lipson24_caryn_lipson@HOTMAIL.COM30_Mon, 7 Mar 2005 07:30:23 -0500517_iso-8859-1 Re:
This touches a major nerve for me right now, since we are in the midst of
>the "what am I going to do with my life now that I am a high school senior
>and I
>have to get a life?" blues

This is very interesting since my son is trying to figure that out now, at
14, the direction for his life. This is one of the reasons why he left
school - because he wanted to learn those things that he was interested in
that would serve him well and enable him to earn a good living [...]45_7Mar200507:30:23-0500caryn_lipson@HOTMAIL.COM 13953 88 42_Re: Men's pre-marriage classes: WAS kollel12_Caryn Lipson24_caryn_lipson@HOTMAIL.COM30_Mon, 7 Mar 2005 07:48:37 -0500633_iso-8859-1 Having briefly looked through this week's Jewish Press, I found this
interesting tidbit in the letters to the editor which make it appear that,
for many, the chassan classes are far from adequate.

"First we have the ongoing problem of shidduchim. Where does it say that the
parents of the girl have to support the couple?
"Second, there are the shalom bayis issues that affect a rapidly growing
number of newly married couples.... The girls schools produce a much better
all around person than the boys' yeshivos do.
"The typical yeshiva bochur is not ready for "us".... Their attitude is [...]45_7Mar200507:48:37-0500caryn_lipson@HOTMAIL.COM 14042 103 10_Re: kollel11_Rivky Kahan22_rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM30_Mon, 7 Mar 2005 08:23:12 -0500546_- Aviva, i am sitting here crying to have to read a post like this from you.
When i first began reading the first few sentences, my immediate knee jerk
reaction was to be afraid that perhaps it was I who had written something to
offend you. But as i read on, i realized that you were talking to people who
were sending in posts against people in kollel-posts you had not forwarded.
I dont think my posts could possibly be construed (sp) to be "against
kollel", so i figured you arent talking to me.
I am now going to be [...]43_7Mar200508:23:12-0500rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM 14146 129 10_Re: kollel11_Rivky Kahan22_rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM30_Mon, 7 Mar 2005 08:38:38 -0500556_- >From: S Sloman
>Reply-To: Torah-Centered Homeschooling
>To: TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG
>Subject: Re: [TORCH-D] kollel
>Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 10:51:26 -0500
>
>I'm sure none of our listmembers are ill-willed toward kollel men, or
>any other Jews. You may be sensing some resentment that those who are
>not full-time learners have for being made to feel inferior on a regular
>basis. Perhaps they are relieved that even those in the yeshivah world
>can admit that there are problems. [...]43_7Mar200508:38:38-0500rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM 14276 57 19_Re: chosson classes15_Nicole Brackman18_drnb1969@YAHOO.COM30_Mon, 7 Mar 2005 06:31:57 -0800591_us-ascii BS"D

Hi all,

Haven't chimed in here for a while, but I'll add my $.02 for whatever it's worth (ha ha). As a ba'alas teshuva, I had few resources for kallah classes but ended up taking them with our (then) local Chabad rebbetzin at the area Chabad house (which was located at a university). My husband met with the rabbi. I guess because these were people very well used to dealing with "real world" issues, we got more than the average "niddah rules only" course. I suppose you could say we also got pre-marital and post-marital counseling (because they followed [...]39_7Mar200506:31:57-0800drnb1969@YAHOO.COM 14334 52 25_Re: Yeshiva on east coast18_Benjamin H Dickman19_bdickman@LUCENT.COM30_Mon, 7 Mar 2005 11:30:44 -0500628_us-ascii bs'd
Yes, Kol Yaakov. Thanks for the correction. I still hear very good things
about it.

Benzion Dickman

On 3/7/2005 2:23 AM, Mrs Moriah Chesler wrote:
> Do you mean Kol Yaakov? (Rav Tropper) My dh went there for a short time.
> Met wonderful people who remained friends and study partners.
>
>
>>bs'd
>>Here in Monsey we have Kol Torah (Rav Tropper) and Ohr Someyach.
>>I myself did a vacation for 2 weeks at Ohr Somayach way back.
>>I got wonderful, personal attention. Really good guys, including
>>older men who were getting seriously into learning for the first [...]40_7Mar200511:30:44-0500bdickman@LUCENT.COM 14387 114 10_Re: kollel11_Rivky Kahan22_rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM30_Mon, 7 Mar 2005 11:42:25 -0500685_- >From: Avivah Werner
>Reply-To: Torah-Centered Homeschooling
>To: TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG
>Subject: Re: [TORCH-D] kollel
>Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 10:52:28 -0800
>
>I also think that Shoshana's comment is probably true. I, too, appreciate
>the discussion, and think it is pertinent and important. My concern about
>the tone of a very small minority of posts (that weren't forwarded) is that
>in our comfort with one another here on the list, some might have been less
>careful than they meant to be in expressing their views and wrote things
>that could easily have been seen as offensive, so I felt that [...]43_7Mar200511:42:25-0500rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM 14502 78 24_Re: schools versus home?11_Rivky Kahan22_rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM30_Mon, 7 Mar 2005 11:44:41 -0500702_- Excuse me for interupting the conversation, but what does "soppy" mean?
Rivky

>From: Avivah Werner
>Reply-To: Torah-Centered Homeschooling
>To: TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG
>Subject: Re: [TORCH-D] schools versus home?
>Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 11:00:16 -0800
>
>Rena, what in the world are you talking about?? You are sounding positively
>soppy. :) I know you pretty well and I still have to guess where you were
>going with these comments. I know there is a point here that I don't want
>to miss, so would you elaborate?
>
>Avivah
>
>RENALEVIN@AOL.COM wrote:
>and they are all full of energy, getting ready [...]43_7Mar200511:44:41-0500rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM 14581 55 15_word definition13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM30_Mon, 7 Mar 2005 09:12:11 -0800568_us-ascii Soppy, as in maudlin, and mushy brained. I hope everyone knows that Rena is a good friend and that I wrote to her as such! I wouldn't have written to her in this way if she wasn't.

Avivah

Excuse me for interupting the conversation, but what does "soppy" mean?
Rivky

>
>Rena, what in the world are you talking about?? You are sounding positively
>soppy. :) I know you pretty well and I still have to guess where you were
>going with these comments. I know there is a point here that I don't want
>to miss, so would you [...]43_7Mar200509:12:11-0800avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 14637 33 42_homebirthing- yoohoo whatever your name is11_Rivky Kahan22_rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM30_Mon, 7 Mar 2005 12:11:55 -0500579_- I know this is off topic but i hope the moderators let this one in. I had
sent a post to the list that included some questions about homebirth. Since
it was off topic, Barbara posted a message to the list that I'm interested
in the subject, and to private email me. I have gotten quite a few responses
on this. Unfortunately i have a stupid computer, that sometimes puts
important emails into my junk folder, and that folder automatically gets
deleted every once in a while. Someone responded privately on this topic,
and it went into my junk folder. [...]43_7Mar200512:11:55-0500rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM 14671 159 24_kollel and list protocol13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM30_Mon, 7 Mar 2005 09:27:17 -0800407_us-ascii Rivky,

Thank you for your sympathy. I was initially bothered by what happened, but now feel philosophical about it. That is the chance you take when you post your thoughts in public, I guess. Shoshana has added in to the bylaws of Torch-d, that forwarding posts is not acceptable. It is definitely important for all of us to realize the importance of maintaining one another's privacy. [...]43_7Mar200509:27:17-0800avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 14831 56 6_kollel11_Rivky Kahan22_rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM30_Mon, 7 Mar 2005 12:34:59 -0500554_- I wanted to respond to something Bill Bernstein said, but i cant find his
post anymore in my inbox, so i cant attach it here.
You said something about before men get into kollel, they have already spent
x years in high school, x years in Beis Medrash, learning x blatt, x deeply
etc, and if they dont have their learning down pat by then another few years
isnt going to "fix that" Sorry if i'm missquoting you. I dont have your
original email with me. Then you also said something about in Europe in some
cities there were no [...]43_7Mar200512:34:59-0500rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM 14888 63 19_Re: word definition11_Rivky Kahan22_rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM30_Mon, 7 Mar 2005 12:39:56 -0500657_- Oh that's what it means. Thanks for explaining. Avivah, you dont have to
tell me that you said it to her as a friend. The fact that i live here
without knowing any homeschoolers other than myself, and you and Rena get to
be neighbors, has not escaped my envious mind. Rivky

>From: Avivah Werner
>Reply-To: Torah-Centered Homeschooling
>To: TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG
>Subject: [TORCH-D] word definition
>Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 09:12:11 -0800
>
>
>Soppy, as in maudlin, and mushy brained. I hope everyone knows that Rena
>is a good friend and that I wrote to her as such! [...]43_7Mar200512:39:56-0500rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM 14952 59 46_Re: homebirthing- yoohoo whatever your name is11_Rivky Kahan22_rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM30_Mon, 7 Mar 2005 12:45:13 -0500401_- Oh thanks moderators!!
You moderators are really something. :-) I leave the computer for a little
while, and the messages i sent this morning are already in. Now i've been
sitting here for TOO LONG catching up on email, and when i click back to my
inbox, i already see the messages i typed a few minutes ago, suddenly appear
and with some responses. How do you do this???? Rivky [...]43_7Mar200512:45:13-0500rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM 15012 66 19_Re: more on kollel?13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM30_Mon, 7 Mar 2005 09:59:16 -0800287_us-ascii I couldn't agree more, Susan. I have also used the phrase 'the emperor has no clothes' to describe this dynamic - sometimes it seems no one wants to admit that there are obvious failings in a system and everyone keeps telling everyone else why it is the right thing to do. [...]43_7Mar200509:59:16-0800avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 15079 119 10_Re: kollel14_Bill Bernstein27_billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET30_Mon, 7 Mar 2005 12:24:10 -0600595_ISO-8859-1 Well, lemme see if I can 'splain it better. Might be my accent .

I initially thought that a couple of years in kollel might be a
commendable thing. Typically we think of education as preparation for
something. In this case the years in kollel would be preparation for
being able to learn on one's own and pursue a schedule of learning
within the confines of what society usually deems to be normal life,
e.g. work, family. And I have personally seen a rabbi or two who could
have well benefitted from a couple of extra years learning before going
[...]48_7Mar200512:24:10-0600billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET 15199 92 25_Re: Yeshiva on east coast14_Bill Bernstein27_billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET30_Mon, 7 Mar 2005 11:25:31 -06000_48_7Mar200511:25:31-0600billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET 15292 40 24_Re: pushing the envelope9_K. Hauser12_kkjh@SHAW.CA30_Mon, 7 Mar 2005 10:49:31 -0800431_US-ASCII Hello All,

I'm mostly a "lurker" on this list, but I did want to chime in for the
moment. We live in Vancouver (not exactly a hub of frum activity!), and
many (relatively speaking) families have had to make the difficult
decision to send their children to yeshivot out of town. Happily, for
those who want their children in school, a Chofetz Chaim yeshiva
started up here a year and a half ago. [...]33_7Mar200510:49:31-0800kkjh@SHAW.CA 15333 137 10_Re: kollel11_Rivky Kahan22_rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM30_Mon, 7 Mar 2005 13:54:06 -0500685_- okay, thanks for responding-i'll read this later when i have more time. I
just wanted to say that your sign lines about where you live are making me
laugh. i wonder what's comming next.
Rivky-who lives
in a city with lots of kosher restaurants

>From: Bill Bernstein
>Reply-To: Torah-Centered Homeschooling
>To: TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG
>Subject: Re: [TORCH-D] kollel
>Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 12:24:10 -0600
>
>Well, lemme see if I can 'splain it better. Might be my accent .
>
>I initially thought that a couple of years in kollel might be a commendable
>thing. Typically we think of [...]43_7Mar200513:54:06-0500rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM 15471 19 46_Re: homebirthing- yoohoo whatever your name is0_17_Sarasimp7@AOL.COM30_Mon, 7 Mar 2005 15:12:10 -0500473_iso-8859-1 i think that was me and most aol or maybe just mine does that to a lot of pple.
Sara

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The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by
Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org,
a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and
an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/

To unsubscribe email: TORCH-D-unsubscribe-request@SHAMASH.ORG38_7Mar200515:12:10-0500Sarasimp7@AOL.COM 15491 51 8_Teshuvah6_Zohari20_najova@EARTHLINK.NET30_Mon, 7 Mar 2005 15:04:12 -0700397_US-ASCII I would like to relate the course of my morning:

I have three sick kids under the age of six. We were all headed out to the
doctor for a noon appointment. My son was eating a light snack and some
juice before leaving when he spilled the juice all over the floor. Boy did
I let him have it! He felt miserable and the rest of the afternoon took on
a very sour tone. [...]41_7Mar200515:04:12-0700najova@EARTHLINK.NET 15543 90 18_Re: socialization?13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM30_Mon, 7 Mar 2005 15:38:19 -0800607_us-ascii **Maybe
the thing is that homeschooling should take one in this direction rather
than just be a substitute for going to school.**

I agree philosophically that the high school years should be spent with a child finding a direction in life. Even more, I think every year should cumulatively bring a child closer to actualizing his potential, mentally if not physically. This is one of my major goals in homeschooling. At the same time, I have come to realize how much is also dependent on the personality of the child. Some kids are naturally more ambitious and goal oriented, some [...]43_7Mar200515:38:19-0800avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 15634 84 13_Re: archives?13_Barbara Mazor19_barbmazor@YAHOO.COM30_Mon, 7 Mar 2005 15:38:18 -0800365_us-ascii Rena -

The March messages are available in the archive. If you have not yet setup a shamash login, you will need to do so. It is pretty straight forward.

Here is the link for the subscriptions page.

http://listserv.shamash.org/cgi-bin/wa?REPORT&z=3

Please let me know if you are able to access this and find what you need. [...]40_7Mar200515:38:18-0800barbmazor@YAHOO.COM 15719 71 11_Re: dorming13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM30_Mon, 7 Mar 2005 16:02:10 -0800553_us-ascii I do think there might be a sex related issue here. Aviva, it sounds like camp was overall a diminishing experience for your son.

I agree that the male/ female divide is a significant one. Boys in a group don't grow in mentschlichkeit (in that an understatement or what?). Take a look at any boys middle or high school and it's clear what I mean. My husband taught middle school last year at a community school, and was grateful that his class had girls and boys - he felt the girls had a civilizing effect on the class atmosphere. [...]43_7Mar200516:02:10-0800avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 15791 126 19_Re: more on kollel?11_Susan Lapin20_suelap@EARTHLINK.NET30_Mon, 7 Mar 2005 16:09:36 -0800600_iso-8859-1 >>> . I asked about the practice of learning gemara to the exclusion of
all else, and was given the response 'gemara is the main course, by learning
gemara one develops the ability to think and thereby understand everything
else'. <<<

Have you ever heard R. Moshe Eisemann's tapes? I have a great deal of
respect for him and heard one tape where he chastised the yeshivas for not
teaching navi. He asked how in the world a part of Tanach is considered
"girls' learning", and I believe even said that you cannot properly
understand mishna and gemara if you [...]41_7Mar200516:09:36-0800suelap@EARTHLINK.NET 15918 27 12_Re: Teshuvah11_Susan Lapin20_suelap@EARTHLINK.NET30_Mon, 7 Mar 2005 16:15:34 -080090_iso-8859-1 Shoshana,

What a beautiful story from such an awful experience.
Susan41_7Mar200516:15:34-0800suelap@EARTHLINK.NET 15946 74 12_Re: Teshuvah12_Caryn Lipson24_caryn_lipson@HOTMAIL.COM30_Mon, 7 Mar 2005 20:00:51 -0500522_iso-8859-1 What a beautiful story.
Caryn

> I would like to relate the course of my morning:
>
> I have three sick kids under the age of six. We were all headed out to
the
> doctor for a noon appointment. My son was eating a light snack and some
> juice before leaving when he spilled the juice all over the floor. Boy
did
> I let him have it! He felt miserable and the rest of the afternoon took
on
> a very sour tone.
>
> On the way home from the doctor, I decided to stop [...]45_7Mar200520:00:51-0500caryn_lipson@HOTMAIL.COM 16021 94 19_Re: more on kollel?13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM30_Mon, 7 Mar 2005 18:26:50 -0800562_us-ascii These cassettes sound like something I would enjoy - I will have to look around for them. Maybe I will check at the Agudah library on Sunday. (Rena, do you have them? Or have any idea?)

It is so ironic that R' Eisemann said exactly the opposite of the rabbi I asked - who said we can't understand anything before learning gemara. My intuitive and intellectual sense is that one first needs a very solid foundation of Tanach and halacha in order to best appreciate the gemara. It is wonderful to hear someone like Rabbi Eisemann saying that. [...]43_7Mar200518:26:50-0800avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 16116 374 28_Re: kollel and list protocol8_S Sloman18_ssloman@NETLAB.COM30_Tue, 8 Mar 2005 09:37:03 -0500728_us-ascii Avivah, I think you have stated the situation very well, and I agree
with you!

Shoshana Sloman
torch-d listowner

-----Original Message-----
From: Torah-Centered Homeschooling [mailto:TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG] On
Behalf Of Avivah Werner
Sent: Monday, March 07, 2005 12:27 PM
To: TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG
Subject: [TORCH-D] kollel and list protocol

Rivky,

Thank you for your sympathy. I was initially bothered by what happened,
but now feel philosophical about it. That is the chance you take when
you post your thoughts in public, I guess. Shoshana has added in to the
bylaws of Torch-d, that forwarding posts is not acceptable. It is
definitely important for all [...]39_8Mar200509:37:03-0500ssloman@NETLAB.COM 16491 180 13_heart-sharing16_Eric & Lori Swim17_elswim@KANSAS.NET30_Tue, 8 Mar 2005 08:55:33 -0600344_us-ascii To everyone who has been pouring out your hearts lately, thank you. I
just went through a bunch of my Torch-D posts last night, and there have
been a lot of them lately, and was really touched a number of times.
So, since I don't write much and don't participate much, I wanted to do
a little heart-sharing of my own. [...]38_8Mar200508:55:33-0600elswim@KANSAS.NET 16672 81 12_Re: Teshuvah11_Rivky Kahan22_rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM30_Mon, 7 Mar 2005 22:42:19 -0500488_- Shoshana Z, I hate to be the "bad guy" here, but i really dont agree with
your take on things.I think you are being way to hard on yourself. Of course
you are stressed out having 3 sick kids under the age of 6, and then your
son spills the drink. You yelled because you are human. Whatever the reason
was that you had that experience in the store afterwards, i cant believe it
was some kind of punnishment from Hashem for not being supermommy every
minute. Rivky [...]43_7Mar200522:42:19-0500rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM 16754 30 19_Re: more on kollel?11_Rivky Kahan22_rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM30_Mon, 7 Mar 2005 22:58:04 -0500546_- >And by the way, does everyone know that Nechama Cox is now in Baltimore?
>So Rivky, maybe now I am really leaving you plotzing with envy, hmm? :))

No, i didnt know that Nechama Cox is living in Baltimore. Oh will somebody
please move to Toronto?? And yes, it is leaving me plotzing with envy. But
truth to tell, i have a major inferiority complex. I'm afraid if i really
lived around you guys, i would not be able to measure up to you guys as
homeschooling parents, and you would find out what a real nerd i am. You [...]43_7Mar200522:58:04-0500rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM 16785 93 19_Re: more on kollel?14_Bill Bernstein27_billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET30_Mon, 7 Mar 2005 21:26:44 -06000_48_7Mar200521:26:44-0600billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET 16879 64 19_Re: more on kollel?15_Alison Jacobson23_alisonziskind@YAHOO.COM30_Mon, 7 Mar 2005 21:39:32 -0800609_us-ascii I've heard that the bigger the gadol, the more
"normal" they are. They see and hear so much that
their perspective is wonderful.

www.aishaudio.com is a wonderful site for shiurim, for
those who would like to listen to parenting and
marriage tapes. Many are very "frummy".

The question of helping our sons and daughters to
develop proper hashgofos about marriage and family
life is critical!! I am so glad I'm not in that
parshah yet , and I admire all of you who are. I
think it's a lot of educating ourselves. For those
ladies who want to improve their [...]44_7Mar200521:39:32-0800alisonziskind@YAHOO.COM 16944 121 9_yeshivas?0_17_RENALEVIN@AOL.COM28_Tue, 8 Mar 2005 00:46:35 EST468_US-ASCII Thanks for the info on these yeshivas. I had actually mentioned Rabbi
Tropper to my hubby, since a good friend had gone there way back when (like in the
1970s). This is one of our friends who has good hashkafa, feet solidly on the
ground, head firmly on shoulders, so that is already a plus. Seems like he
might have gotten some of this from yeshiva, or at least the yeshiva did not
interfere with these attributes. we will check into it. [...]36_8Mar200500:46:35ESTRENALEVIN@AOL.COM 17066 99 17_famly versus home0_17_RENALEVIN@AOL.COM28_Tue, 8 Mar 2005 00:53:56 EST407_US-ASCII In a message dated 3/7/05 1:57:44 AM Eastern Standard Time,
LISTSERV@SHAMASH.ORG writes:

>
> Rena, what in the world are you talking about?? You are sounding positively
> soppy. :)

Yes, Avivah, I was soppy, I wrote this post at 2 AM so I was not very
articulate. AND the thought process itself, the event/situation that I was
describing was also pretty emotional. [...]36_8Mar200500:53:56ESTRENALEVIN@AOL.COM 17166 120 14_kallah classes0_17_RENALEVIN@AOL.COM28_Tue, 8 Mar 2005 01:01:53 EST415_US-ASCII In a message dated 3/7/05 1:57:44 AM Eastern Standard Time,
LISTSERV@SHAMASH.ORG writes:

> Very little if any hashkafa was taught in EITHER of my kallah classes. Just
> the nuts and bolts and mechanics of nidda, mikveh, etc. and it's my distinct
> impression that if the guys get anything in preparation for marriage, it's
> these same "mechanics" - the book learning...... I agree [...]36_8Mar200501:01:53ESTRENALEVIN@AOL.COM 17287 126 12_Re: Teshuvah12_Yael Resnick22_njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM30_Tue, 8 Mar 2005 01:21:19 -0500612_us-ascii I really appreciate Shoshana posting this experience. It was very
real and honest, and I related to it very much. Sometimes I, too,
feel justified in "venting" my frustrations toward my kids,
rationalizing that since most of the time I'm a nice, fun,
understanding mommy, they can deal with some honest negative emotion
(i.e. yelling) without being too affected by it. It's always when I'm
tired, and one thing has piled on top of another and another and
another -- then I'm not so nice and fun and understanding anymore. I
always end up feeling lousy about losing my cool. [...]43_8Mar200501:21:19-0500njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM 17414 107 38_Tanakh & Gemara: WAS "more on kollel?"18_Benjamin H Dickman19_bdickman@LUCENT.COM30_Tue, 8 Mar 2005 01:33:21 -0500426_us-ascii bs'd
Avivah, Susan,et.al.,

Thank you for sharing Rav Eisemann's view of the Tanakh/Gemara study
question.

The Gemara contains the derivations of practical halakha for each
Mishna. Someone who has mastered it will be able to poskin a 'new'
situation from fundamental principles. Rav Moshe Feinstein used
this derekh frequently when a topic did not fit well into
existing case law. [...]40_8Mar200501:33:21-0500bdickman@LUCENT.COM 17522 143 10_Re: kollel11_Rivky Kahan22_rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM30_Tue, 8 Mar 2005 08:08:30 -0500582_- Okay, i did finally get to read your post. (and i still havent noticed your
accent)
I do believe, as you said somewhere in your post that people really learn in
Kollel,for spiritual reasons, such as olam haba, not to prepare for a job or
something like that. But then you really got me thinking when you talked
about how our institutions, such as yeshivos, mikvahs etc need money, which
the community has to pay for etc. Not to mention, the Kollels and the Kollel
men themselves, need money to continue what they're doing, and SOMEBODY has
to pay for [...]43_8Mar200508:08:30-0500rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM 17666 279 18_Re: socialization?12_Caryn Lipson24_caryn_lipson@HOTMAIL.COM30_Tue, 8 Mar 2005 08:14:41 -0500455_iso-8859-1 Aviva, I agree that all kids are different. I can see it in my own. We did read the Teenage Liberation Handbook - it was the first book on homeschooling that I found right after my son stopped "schooling." It made me much more relaxed with the direction he seemed to be going in. My daughter is different and I will probably direct her more (she's also more directable). I think (hope) that part of my son's influence will rub off on her. [...]45_8Mar200508:14:41-0500caryn_lipson@HOTMAIL.COM 17946 65 18_Re: socialization?12_Caryn Lipson24_caryn_lipson@HOTMAIL.COM30_Tue, 8 Mar 2005 08:29:48 -0500472_iso-8859-1 Or, maybe it's that the goals I had, I was never taught how to actualize.

Caryn

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To unsubscribe email: TORCH-D-unsubscribe-request@SHAMASH.ORG45_8Mar200508:29:48-0500caryn_lipson@HOTMAIL.COM 18012 237 40_Re: kollel and list protocol-our website11_Rivky Kahan22_rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM30_Tue, 8 Mar 2005 11:45:29 -0500592_- see my inserted comments.

>From: Avivah Werner
>Reply-To: Torah-Centered Homeschooling
>To: TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG
>Subject: [TORCH-D] kollel and list protocol
>Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 09:27:17 -0800
>
>Rivky,
>
>Thank you for your sympathy.

Please never thank me for sympathy. I hope never to have "sympathy" for
anybody. To me, that word means "pity" an emotion worse than hate. I only
have respect for you-not pity. I'd rather use the word "empathy" which means
feeling another person's pain. [...]43_8Mar200511:45:29-0500rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM 18250 33 26_open learning (re: kollel)18_Mrs Moriah Chesler25_merilyn@CHESLER.ABSOL.COM30_Tue, 8 Mar 2005 11:59:36 -0500442_- >
>And as far as old Europe and the one shul everyone learns in... I didnt know
>that people were made to feel unwelcome to come in and learn in our yeshivas
>and kollels. I know community Kollels want nothing more than for everyone to
>come in and learn, and they encourage it. Same too for other places of
>learning. Everyone is welcome to come and learn, and they do. Maybe i'm
>missing the point here.
> Rivky [...]46_8Mar200511:59:36-0500merilyn@CHESLER.ABSOL.COM 18284 19 12_Re: teshuvah18_Mrs Moriah Chesler25_merilyn@CHESLER.ABSOL.COM30_Tue, 8 Mar 2005 12:55:43 -0500497_- Thank you for sharing your beautiful experience.
We learn a lot from our children and others around us.

Moriah

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To unsubscribe email: TORCH-D-unsubscribe-request@SHAMASH.ORG46_8Mar200512:55:43-0500merilyn@CHESLER.ABSOL.COM 18304 173 12_Re: Teshuvah14_Mandy Oeschger23_sailorswife@KNOLOGY.NET30_Tue, 8 Mar 2005 15:03:56 -0600580_iso-8859-1 Yael,

Does your son get enough outside time to "burn" the steam?? My four year
old sounds very much like your son. We're working on correcting his saying
"no" to us. I imagine it only gets harder the older they get. I've been
scared into expecting a very high standard by watching kids we know usurp
authority over their parents by the time age 9 or 10 is reached. I think of
delayed obedience as disobedience. I read a book by Michael Pearl titled No
Greater Joy. It's quite shaking as to how he teaches children.. one rarely
sees the [...]44_8Mar200515:03:56-0600sailorswife@KNOLOGY.NET 18478 150 17_Re: heart-sharing14_Malkie Swidler24_swidler@NETVISION.NET.IL30_Wed, 9 Mar 2005 00:00:29 +0200476_us-ascii Lori--

Thank you for sharing your story, too!

There is a great group of homeschoolers here in Israel, and several are
on this list as well-- why didn't you contact us when you came?
As far as not being adopted by Jews-- that happens when you formally
begin conversion. It's the difference between between being a boyfriend
and being a fiance. As serious as a boyfriend can be, boyfriends come
and go. Fiances have made a commitment. [...]45_9Mar200500:00:29+0200swidler@NETVISION.NET.IL 18629 177 17_Re: heart-sharing16_Eric & Lori Swim17_elswim@KANSAS.NET30_Tue, 8 Mar 2005 16:42:11 -0600517_us-ascii Malkie,
Thanks for the note. I don't feel I can address everything you
mentioned at the moment, but I do thank you for your thoughts and ideas!
I wish I could have met the Israeli homeschoolers while we were in
Israel, but the whole trip happened very suddenly and we did not have a
chance to do much in the way of preparation.
I do know though, from the people we came in contact with that a number
of Israelis are intrigued by homeschooling!
Lori
(Black Squirrel City :-) ) [...]38_8Mar200516:42:11-0600elswim@KANSAS.NET 18807 109 12_Re: Teshuvah6_Zohari20_najova@EARTHLINK.NET30_Tue, 8 Mar 2005 16:00:07 -0700606_US-ASCII "I cant believe it was some kind of punishment from Hashem for not being
super-mommy every minute."

Dear Rivky,

Perhaps my explanation did come across as being overly punitive.
And I certainly do not have a world-view that is overly focused on HaShem's
wrath.

However, one of my methods with my kids is to try to find instances of
hashagacha pratis in order to emphasize how everything in our world is so
tightly interwoven and dependent upon HaShem's will. It really was clear to
me that I was being treated to a taste of what I had dished out earlier [...]41_8Mar200516:00:07-0700najova@EARTHLINK.NET 18917 91 13_Re: yeshivas?11_Rivky Kahan22_rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM30_Tue, 8 Mar 2005 18:33:05 -0500669_- Rena, WHITE please :-) Easier on the eyes. Rivky

>From: RENALEVIN@AOL.COM
>Reply-To: Torah-Centered Homeschooling
>To: TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG
>Subject: [TORCH-D] yeshivas?
>Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 00:46:35 EST
>
>Thanks for the info on these yeshivas. I had actually mentioned Rabbi
>Tropper to my hubby, since a good friend had gone there way back when (like
>in the
>1970s). This is one of our friends who has good hashkafa, feet solidly on
>the
>ground, head firmly on shoulders, so that is already a plus. Seems like he
>might have gotten some of this from yeshiva, or at least the yeshiva did
[...]43_8Mar200518:33:05-0500rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM 19009 63 30_Re: open learning (re: kollel)11_Rivky Kahan22_rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM30_Tue, 8 Mar 2005 18:53:22 -0500446_- I've been telling my husband about our kollel discussion and he has some
very interesting remarks to make some of which tie in with Moriah's post
here. I've been trying to convince him to stop by, and visit us here to
share his thoughts, but he keeps saying he doesnt have time, and cant i just
relay his message. I'd rather he say it in own words. Hopefuly i can get him
to make at least a one time contribution. :-) rivky [...]43_8Mar200518:53:22-0500rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM 19073 32 17_Re: heart-sharing11_Rivky Kahan22_rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM30_Tue, 8 Mar 2005 19:02:41 -0500790_- .
>
>However, conversion is a HUGE step and not necessarily appropriate for you.
>Have you considered a Noachide community?

A Noachide community? I never even knew there was such a thing. I'm very
happy to hear this.

Rivky
>
>

_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE!
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The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by
Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org,
a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and
an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...]43_8Mar200519:02:41-0500rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM 19106 82 16_parental regrets13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM30_Tue, 8 Mar 2005 18:37:24 -0800539_us-ascii When I first learned about homeschooling, I had two major reactions - one was excitement about the potential for my kids, and the other was regret, pain even, about how my school years were spent. So many times I have thought about what I could have accomplished had I been homeschooled in the way I am homeschooling my kids - or even if I had done the strictest school at home style of homeschooling! But I try to channel those feelings into doing the best I can for my kids, and it helps me remember that the system is not [...]43_8Mar200518:37:24-0800avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 19189 53 17_Re: heart-sharing14_Bill Bernstein27_billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET30_Tue, 8 Mar 2005 20:11:32 -0600670_ISO-8859-1 I hear that Athens has one.
That's Athens, TN, not far from Chattanooga. Not Athens GA. I heard
there was someplace in Europe that took that name too.
Bill Bernstein
Whose governor might be the next POTUS

Rivky Kahan wrote:

> .
>
>>
>> However, conversion is a HUGE step and not necessarily appropriate
>> for you. Have you considered a Noachide community?
>
>
> A Noachide community? I never even knew there was such a thing. I'm
> very happy to hear this.
>
> Rivky
>
>>
>>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Express yourself instantly with [...]48_8Mar200520:11:32-0600billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET 19243 47 15_Bill's governor13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM30_Tue, 8 Mar 2005 18:40:10 -0800676_us-ascii Okay, I'll ask - what does POTUS stand for? Nothing obscene, right? :) I have been running possibilities for an acronym around my head and can't come up with anything.

>>Bill Bernstein
Whose governor might be the next POTUS<<

---------------------------------
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The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by
Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org,
a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and
an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/43_8Mar200518:40:10-0800avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 19291 77 22_Re: family versus home13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM30_Tue, 8 Mar 2005 18:53:35 -0800549_us-ascii Yes, Rena, it makes perfect sense. Thanks for clarifying - I knew it was worth finding out what you really meant!

Avivah

RENALEVIN@AOL.COM wrote:
In a message dated 3/7/05 1:57:44 AM Eastern Standard Time, LISTSERV@SHAMASH.ORG writes:

Rena, what in the world are you talking about?? You are sounding positively soppy. :)

Yes, Avivah, I was soppy, I wrote this post at 2 AM so I was not very articulate. AND the thought process itself, the event/situation that I was describing was also pretty emotional. [...]43_8Mar200518:53:35-0800avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 19369 32 19_Re: Bill's governor12_Yael Resnick22_njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM30_Tue, 8 Mar 2005 21:55:36 -0500499_us-ascii Avivah, I didn't even try to figure it out because it looked so
unfamiliar at first glance, but on looking again it's easy: think "P
of the U S" !

Yael
who used to subscribe to Games magazine when I was a kid

>Okay, I'll ask - what does POTUS stand for? Nothing obscene, right?
>:) I have been running possibilities for an acronym around my head
>and can't come up with anything.
>
>
> >>Bill Bernstein
>Whose governor might be the next POTUS< [...]43_8Mar200521:55:36-0500njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM 19402 62 19_Re: Bill's governor13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM30_Tue, 8 Mar 2005 19:01:33 -0800319_us-ascii Okay, now I get it! Isn't that disingenous, to make an acronym that uses unimportant words like 'of the'? So who is this governor who might end up president? All I can think about regarding the next election is that it better not be Hillary (and I will stop there and not be any more partisan than that). [...]43_8Mar200519:01:33-0800avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 19465 429 19_Re: Bill's governor8_S Sloman18_ssloman@NETLAB.COM30_Tue, 8 Mar 2005 22:11:17 -0500359_us-ascii Ack-I'm figuratively clutching my heart in fear at your mention of
politics. You wouldn't believe the deep divide in this country as a
result of this partisan stuff. People who have been friendly with me
for a long time have ripped me up one side and down the other,
apparently because I represent something hateful now (Red State). [...]39_8Mar200522:11:17-0500ssloman@NETLAB.COM 19895 211 19_Re: parenting books13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM30_Tue, 8 Mar 2005 19:12:56 -0800415_us-ascii Miriam Adahan's books are very worthwhile. I was fortunate enough to attend her weekly workshops in Jerusalem from the time I was 17 until 21, and then a year or two later attended her leader training workshops for Israelis. At that point, she told me I didn't belong in the class since I was past what she was teaching (it was basic stuff), and told me to start my own EMETT group. So I started did. [...]43_8Mar200519:12:56-0800avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 20107 60 19_Re: parenting books13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM30_Tue, 8 Mar 2005 19:25:26 -0800407_us-ascii Miriam Adahan's books are very worthwhile. I was fortunate enough to attend her weekly workshops in Jerusalem from the time I was 17 until 21, and then a year or two later attended her leader training workshops for Israelis. At that point, she told me I didn't belong in the class since I was past what she was teaching (it was basic stuff), and told me to start my own EMETT group. So I did. [...]43_8Mar200519:25:26-0800avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 20168 57 19_Re: Bill's governor14_Bill Bernstein27_billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET30_Tue, 8 Mar 2005 21:17:57 -0600587_ISO-8859-1 Get yr mind outta the gutter, Aviva. POTUS is President Of The United
States.
Gov Bredesen is a Democrat and actually a decent, competant person who
is wrestling with a huge (and hugely expensive) mess called TennCare,
our version of Medicare. He has not backed a state income tax (we are
one of four states that dont have one). He is at least not anti-gun.
He is in touch with what people in this state want, despite coming from
up North somewhere, As mayor of this city he cleaned up the "ole boy"
network so the city government became somewhat [...]48_8Mar200521:17:57-0600billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET 20226 33 11_POTUS Et Al14_Bill Bernstein27_billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET30_Tue, 8 Mar 2005 21:33:38 -0600588_ISO-8859-1 As is apparant, I spend waaay too much time on the Internet, reading and
engaging in discussions. Part of being in any environment for a while
is that you pick up the "loshon" of those around you.
POTUS for President is one.
RINO for Republican In Name Only is another (e.g. "that Arlen Spectre
isn't a conservative! He's just a RINO.")
SHTFS. hit the fan scenario. (e.g. what are you gonna do when
SHTF and the Chinese invade Texas from South America?)
TEOWAWKI. The end of the world as we know it. A more extreme version
of SHTF. Post [...]48_8Mar200521:33:38-0600billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET 20260 61 17_Re: socialization0_17_RENALEVIN@AOL.COM28_Tue, 8 Mar 2005 23:32:47 EST384_US-ASCII In a message dated 3/8/05 2:13:30 AM Eastern Standard Time,
LISTSERV@SHAMASH.ORG writes:

> He's going through a rough
> patch and will have a very different view when he's past that. Even if he
> doesn't, you know that you did the right thing at the time

Susan: Thanks for the divrei chizuk and words of support and perspective. I
needed that! [...]36_8Mar200523:32:47ESTRENALEVIN@AOL.COM 20322 86 19_RE; word definition0_17_RENALEVIN@AOL.COM28_Tue, 8 Mar 2005 23:39:03 EST379_US-ASCII In a message dated 3/8/05 2:13:30 AM Eastern Standard Time,
LISTSERV@SHAMASH.ORG writes:

> Soppy, as in maudlin, and mushy brained.

I plead guilty as charged!

I hope everyone knows that Rena is a good friend and that I wrote to her as
such!
> I wouldn't have written to her in this way if she wasn't.
>
>
No offense taken. :) [...]36_8Mar200523:39:03ESTRENALEVIN@AOL.COM 20409 38 19_Re: parenting books15_Alison Jacobson23_alisonziskind@YAHOO.COM30_Tue, 8 Mar 2005 20:45:43 -0800349_us-ascii Miriam is also a handwriting expert, and analyzed my
handwriting about 2 years ago. She gave me tremendous
insight as well as insight into a potential shidduch.
Baruch Hashem, her predictions were true and the
shidduch did not work out! I was so grateful to her
for saving me from a lot of heartache. She's
fabulous. [...]44_8Mar200520:45:43-0800alisonziskind@YAHOO.COM 20448 55 12_re; visitors0_17_RENALEVIN@AOL.COM28_Tue, 8 Mar 2005 23:49:43 EST536_US-ASCII In a message dated 3/8/05 2:13:30 AM Eastern Standard Time,
LISTSERV@SHAMASH.ORG writes:

> And by the way, does everyone know that Nechama Cox is now in Baltimore?

when did she get here?

Rena

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The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by
Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org,
a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and
an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...]36_8Mar200523:49:43ESTRENALEVIN@AOL.COM 20504 96 18_Re: kallah classes16_Avigayil Simpson26_avigayil_simpson@YAHOO.COM30_Tue, 8 Mar 2005 23:59:22 -0800528_us-ascii Hi Rena,

Thanks but I have both books - The Secret of Jewish Femininity and Straight from the Heart and have read both more than once. When I was still in the States, I worked for 3 years at the Jewish bookstore in Pittsburgh and it was there that I first came across them. In fact, that's were I first saw the name Tehilla and I liked it so much that my oldest daughter's name is Tehilla. I will look for the other books you mentioned although books like this in English are hard to find here where I live [...]47_8Mar200523:59:22-0800avigayil_simpson@YAHOO.COM 20601 190 12_Re: Teshuvah16_Avigayil Simpson26_avigayil_simpson@YAHOO.COM30_Wed, 9 Mar 2005 02:13:10 -0800390_us-ascii Hi Shoshana and Yael,

I think all of us can relate to having guilty feelings for having Mean Mommy Moments. I know I sure have enough of them in my dealings with a very slow- operating, dreamy 8-year-old that I have to ask 10 times before she does what I'm asking her to do and therefore bedtime preparation drags on for 2 hours or more as it did last night! Grrrrrrr. [...]47_9Mar200502:13:10-0800avigayil_simpson@YAHOO.COM 20792 57 19_Re: parenting books12_Caryn Lipson24_caryn_lipson@HOTMAIL.COM30_Wed, 9 Mar 2005 08:04:38 -0500383_iso-8859-1 Are there any parenting books directed towards teens?

Caryn

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by
Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org,
a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and
an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/45_9Mar200508:04:38-0500caryn_lipson@HOTMAIL.COM 20850 95 12_Re: Teshuvah11_Rivky Kahan22_rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM30_Wed, 9 Mar 2005 08:03:54 -0500535_- Thanks for responding. Everyone else liked your story, and i was almost
starting to think i was being out of line somehow.
I'm happy to hear that you are not beating yourself up for not being
perfect. If you felt like you grew from the experience- if it was a positve
experience for you, then yes, it's worthwhile.
In fact i have a similar story. You'll all have to excuse the subject
matter. I have a problem with hard cheese. If i eat too much of it, i get
constipated. One day, i did a no no and ate too [...]43_9Mar200508:03:54-0500rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM 20946 57 15_Re: POTUS Et Al14_Malkie Swidler24_swidler@NETVISION.NET.IL30_Wed, 9 Mar 2005 16:39:10 +0200608_us-ascii WHERE ON EARTH do you hang out, Bill?

My acronyms are more like:
TIA Thanks in advance
NAK nursing at the keyboard
UBCPF Unbleached chinese prefold diaper
MT Mai Tai asian baby Carrier (aka ABC)

Clearly I'm going to all the wrong forums.

Malkie

Bill Bernstein wrote:

> As is apparant, I spend waaay too much time on the Internet, reading and
> engaging in discussions. Part of being in any environment for a while
> is that you pick up the "loshon" of those around you.
> POTUS for President is one.
> RINO for Republican In Name Only [...]45_9Mar200516:39:10+0200swidler@NETVISION.NET.IL 21004 29 12_Re: Teshuvah12_Caryn Lipson24_caryn_lipson@HOTMAIL.COM30_Wed, 9 Mar 2005 09:45:48 -0500570_iso-8859-1 I think we have to have a balance between looking for reasons for everything
and being able to function, but it does make for a more meaningful, less
random, life. I see it with the good as well as the bad. When one opens a
book and it opens to the right page, or finds what they are looking for
right away, I've learned that that's a reward. And it happens occassionally.
Conversely, when my oven stopped functioning, the first thing that occurred
to me was that I hadn't yet kashered my parents over, as they moved nearby a
couple [...]45_9Mar200509:45:48-0500caryn_lipson@HOTMAIL.COM 21034 146 12_Re: Teshuvah14_Bill Bernstein27_billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET30_Wed, 9 Mar 2005 09:27:53 -0600553_ISO-8859-1 I've let some of these posts go but now feel like I have to spout off
yet again.
I honestly have a problem with the hashkafa being played out here, that
"this happened because of that."
I remember our rav in Philadelphia giving a drosha on just this topic.
He repeated a story about some gadol in Europe. It seemed that there
was an older man whose wife brought him tea every morning in bed before
he got up. One day she tripped and fell and broke her leg very badly
and limped after that. She came to this gadol [...]48_9Mar200509:27:53-0600billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET 21181 30 19_Re: Tanakh & Gemara18_Mrs Moriah Chesler25_merilyn@CHESLER.ABSOL.COM30_Wed, 9 Mar 2005 12:12:48 -0500429_- >
>Not only does the Gemara give the locations in Tanakh, but there
>is a reference work that gives, for each verse in Tanakh with a Talmud
>Bavli or Yerushalmi connection, the location in Talmud (and relevant
>Midrashim). That reference is "Torah haKethuva v'haM'surah" by Rav
>Aharon Hyman, Dvir Publishing, Tel Aviv,1979; ISBN 965-01-0006-7 .
>Definitely worth getting. It's a 3-volume set in Hebrew. [...]46_9Mar200512:12:48-0500merilyn@CHESLER.ABSOL.COM 21212 18 9_Noachides18_Mrs Moriah Chesler25_merilyn@CHESLER.ABSOL.COM30_Wed, 9 Mar 2005 12:23:47 -0500469_- www.hamayim.org

also referenced by aish.com in one of their articles in Laws of Noah.

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The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by
Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org,
a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and
an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/

To unsubscribe email: TORCH-D-unsubscribe-request@SHAMASH.ORG46_9Mar200512:23:47-0500merilyn@CHESLER.ABSOL.COM 21231 53 19_Re: Tanakh & Gemara14_Bill Bernstein27_billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET30_Wed, 9 Mar 2005 11:47:38 -0600349_ISO-8859-1 This sounds similar to the Torah Temima, which is a chumash with rashi
and relevant citations to discussion in T.Bavli along with some
commentary on them by Rav Epstein, the author. Work was done late 19th
C. I vaguely recall a similar work being started on Nach but cannot
remember any more than that.
Bill Bernstein [...]48_9Mar200511:47:38-0600billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET 21285 41 15_parenting books13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM30_Wed, 9 Mar 2005 10:54:35 -0800502_us-ascii A book that I liked is called Bringing Up Your Kids Without Tearing Them Down, by Dr. Kevin Leman. He discusses the basic premise, and then writes about how to apply it to different ages. (There is a chapter about teens in it.) Something I liked is, since he had a talk show on these issues, he includes real questions and answers them. I found that quite useful, since you see specifically how he suggests you apply the principles, and very relevant for parents of children of all ages. [...]43_9Mar200510:54:35-0800avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 21327 30 19_Re: Bill's governor11_Rivky Kahan22_rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM30_Wed, 9 Mar 2005 14:05:12 -0500848_- >From: Bill Bernstein
>Reply-To: Torah-Centered Homeschooling
>To: TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG
>Subject: Re: [TORCH-D] Bill's governor
>Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 21:17:57 -0600
>
>POTUS is President Of The United States

I never would have guessed that's what it meant! Rivky

_________________________________________________________________
Don’t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!
http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/

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The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by
Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org,
a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and
an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...]43_9Mar200514:05:12-0500rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM 21358 49 16_Re: re; visitors11_Rivky Kahan22_rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM30_Wed, 9 Mar 2005 14:09:20 -0500668_- >From: RENALEVIN@AOL.COM
>Reply-To: Torah-Centered Homeschooling
>To: TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG
>Subject: [TORCH-D] re; visitors
>Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 23:49:43 EST
>
>In a message dated 3/8/05 2:13:30 AM Eastern Standard Time,
>LISTSERV@SHAMASH.ORG writes:
>
>
> > And by the way, does everyone know that Nechama Cox is now in Baltimore?
>
>when did she get here?
>
>Rena

Oh you didn't know?? Thanks for the laugh. Here i am picturing the 3 of you
having a good time together, doing homeschooling outings with the kids and
stuff... I guess when we find things out is a question of when we [...]43_9Mar200514:09:20-0500rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM 21408 50 19_Re: Tanakh & Gemara18_Benjamin H Dickman19_bdickman@LUCENT.COM30_Wed, 9 Mar 2005 16:49:02 -0500703_us-ascii bs'd
I don't know of an English equivalent. But since the entries
are mostly cross-references rather than exposition, the Hebrew
version will probably serve anyone who can read 'easy Hebrew'.
No niqud (vowels), though.

kol tuv,
Benzion Dickman

On 3/9/2005 12:12 PM, Mrs Moriah Chesler wrote:
>>Not only does the Gemara give the locations in Tanakh, but there
>>is a reference work that gives, for each verse in Tanakh with a Talmud
>>Bavli or Yerushalmi connection, the location in Talmud (and relevant
>>Midrashim). That reference is "Torah haKethuva v'haM'surah" by Rav
>>Aharon Hyman, Dvir Publishing, Tel Aviv,1979; ISBN 965-01-0006-7 .
[...]40_9Mar200516:49:02-0500bdickman@LUCENT.COM 21459 47 16_Where can I find15_Nicole Brackman18_drnb1969@YAHOO.COM30_Wed, 9 Mar 2005 14:29:06 -0800473_us-ascii ...gently used little kids' Jewish stories, picture books, games, parsha books, etc.? Like things from the Yaffa Ganz stories series, and similar?

They are so expensive new at the Jewish book store and we have no local consignment shop. Anyone have any ideas?

Thanks!
Nicole

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com [...]39_9Mar200514:29:06-0800drnb1969@YAHOO.COM 21507 82 20_Re: Where can I find13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM30_Wed, 9 Mar 2005 18:33:01 -0800456_us-ascii I don't remember where you said you live, Nicole. Are there any Jewish libraries around you? Why buy the books yourself if you can borrow them? I haven't yet found any source for Jewish used items, and in fact, when I have my own to donate, I have no idea what to do with them. Just this Shabbos it occurred to me that I could give them to my shul's assortment of things they bring out to keep the kids entertained when parents are davening. [...]43_9Mar200518:33:01-0800avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 21590 578 20_Re: Where can I find8_S Sloman18_ssloman@NETLAB.COM30_Wed, 9 Mar 2005 21:38:51 -0500839_us-ascii Check ebay. For instance, here's what they currently have of Yaffa Ganz
-
http://search.ebay.com/yaffa-ganz_W0QQsofocusZbsQQsbrftogZ1QQcatrefZC6QQ
fromZR10QQsacatZ-1QQcatrefZC6QQftrtZ1QQftrvZ1QQsadisZ200QQfposZQ5AIPQ2FP
ostalQQfsopZ1QQfsooZ1

Shoshana Sloman
torch-d listowner

-----Original Message-----
From: Torah-Centered Homeschooling [mailto:TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG] On
Behalf Of Avivah Werner
Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2005 9:33 PM
To: TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG
Subject: Re: [TORCH-D] Where can I find

I don't remember where you said you live, Nicole. Are there any Jewish
libraries around you? Why buy the books yourself if you can borrow
them? I haven't yet found any source for Jewish used items, and in
fact, when I have my own to donate, I have no idea what to do [...]39_9Mar200521:38:51-0500ssloman@NETLAB.COM 22169 61 16_Re: re; visitors13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM30_Wed, 9 Mar 2005 18:51:32 -0800549_us-ascii Rivky, believe it or not, Rena and I have only once participated in a homeschool activity together in the 2.5 years I have been here, and that was apple picking before this most recent Rosh Hashana. That means it took over two years before we did even that, and that was part of a larger group and we both went separately. (Yes, we did live only seven houses away from each other on the same side of the street.) It is tempting to picture homeschoolers who spend all their time being a close knit group and do everything together, but [...]43_9Mar200518:51:32-0800avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 22231 49 20_Re: Where can I find14_Bill Bernstein27_billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET30_Wed, 9 Mar 2005 20:20:03 -0600726_ISO-8859-1 I might have some used ones to sell. I'll have to get the kids to sort
through them.
b

Nicole Brackman wrote:

> ...gently used little kids' Jewish stories, picture books, games,
> parsha books, etc.? Like things from the Yaffa Ganz stories series,
> and similar?
>
> They are so expensive new at the Jewish book store and we have no
> local consignment shop. Anyone have any ideas?
>
> Thanks!
> Nicole
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
[...]48_9Mar200520:20:03-0600billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET 22281 195 12_Re: Teshuvah11_Rivky Kahan22_rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM30_Wed, 9 Mar 2005 22:40:29 -0500668_- Avigayil, i'm glad somebody said this, because i wanted to say something
like this and didnt know how to put it. Rivky

>From: Avigayil Simpson
>Reply-To: Torah-Centered Homeschooling
>To: TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG
>Subject: Re: [TORCH-D] Teshuvah
>Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 02:13:10 -0800
>
>
>Hi Shoshana and Yael,
>
>I think all of us can relate to having guilty feelings for having Mean
>Mommy Moments. I know I sure have enough of them in my dealings with a very
>slow- operating, dreamy 8-year-old that I have to ask 10 times before she
>does what I'm asking her to do [...]43_9Mar200522:40:29-0500rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM 22477 82 12_Re: Teshuvah11_Rivky Kahan22_rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM30_Wed, 9 Mar 2005 23:05:03 -0500680_- >From: Caryn Lipson
>Reply-To: Torah-Centered Homeschooling
>To: TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG
>Subject: Re: [TORCH-D] Teshuvah
>Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 09:45:48 -0500
>
>I think we have to have a balance between looking for reasons for
>everything
>and being able to function, but it does make for a more meaningful, less
>random, life. I see it with the good as well as the bad. When one opens a
>book and it opens to the right page, or finds what they are looking for
>right away, I've learned that that's a reward. And it happens
>occassionally.
>Conversely, when my oven stopped functioning, [...]43_9Mar200523:05:03-0500rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM 22560 180 12_Re: Teshuvah11_Rivky Kahan22_rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM30_Wed, 9 Mar 2005 23:18:32 -0500558_- You are right Bill of course. And the story you tell is one i've heard from
my husband. We really cannot know with any certainty why Hashem did this or
that. I cant know for sure why i had my stomach experience, and Shoshana
doesnt know for sure why she had her experience. But sometimes an experience
just hits you between the eyes as a wake up call, and that for us, is a
meaningful experience. If it makes us better people, and feel closer to
Hashem etc, then we have heard a worthwhile message. Maybe Hashem meant a
different [...]43_9Mar200523:18:32-0500rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM 22741 109 28_Re: books on parenting teens14_Laya B Jackson17_tolife18@JUNO.COM31_Thu, 10 Mar 2005 00:53:52 -0500579_us-ascii Are there any parenting books directed towards teens?

Caryn
Here's a book that looks great to me: It's called "Please Stop the
Rollercoaster" by Sue Blaney. I haven't read it through but have looked
it over and it seems to cover a lot of ground in a step by step way.
It's a book and a work book with exercises to help you explore and
discover things about yourself and your adolescent. From the back of the
book "Read this book to gain new insights into the joys and challenges of
parenting teens, and develop your own course of action [...]39_10Mar200500:53:52-0500tolife18@JUNO.COM 22851 143 20_Re: Where can I find12_Caryn Lipson24_caryn_lipson@HOTMAIL.COM31_Thu, 10 Mar 2005 07:15:23 -0500464_iso-8859-1 I would try posting a request for these items on Luach.com. They have a "luach-at-large" section that goes to all and sections for particular areas and growing. You may find someone giving them away or selling very nominally. Then, even shipping might be worth it.

Caryn

----- Original Message -----
From: Nicole Brackman
To: TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG
Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2005 5:29 PM
Subject: [TORCH-D] Where can I find [...]46_10Mar200507:15:23-0500caryn_lipson@HOTMAIL.COM 22995 58 20_Re: Where can I find17_Rachel Turniansky28_rachelturniansky@HOTMAIL.COM31_Thu, 10 Mar 2005 08:10:38 -0500368_- Many communities have Jewish libraries and/or gemachs. If you're in a large
city you can try looking in any local Jewish papers. There are also many
cities that are posted on luach.com. Check and see if your city, or one
close enough is on it. For those who don't know about luach.com, it's
basically a free, online community classified advertiser. [...]50_10Mar200508:10:38-0500rachelturniansky@HOTMAIL.COM 23054 65 23_Re: Where can I find...15_Nicole Brackman18_drnb1969@YAHOO.COM31_Thu, 10 Mar 2005 05:12:41 -0800465_us-ascii Thanks everyone!

Avivah, believe it or not despite the fact that we're in a heavily Orthodox area (Five Towns) there is only one Jewish library, it's only open at odd times twice a week, and the children's section was paltry. I would also love to have access to books I like to read (the "popular" ones on Hashgacha pratit by Meir Wikler, books for women, etc....the ones that cost over $20 each new) but sadly there isn't much to choose from. [...]40_10Mar200505:12:41-0800drnb1969@YAHOO.COM 23120 29 17_where can I find?15_Michelle Miller25_michelletamar@HOTMAIL.COM31_Thu, 10 Mar 2005 14:11:43 -0700510_- We have great Jewish libraries in Boulder and Denver. I mostly use the
Boulder one housed in the JCC. Almost every community has a JCC and they
could probably tell you where there is a library if they don't have one.
Also, a larger Chabad house probably has a library. Before I realized these
resources were out there (and before my budget;)) I spent way too much money
on Jewish books. I give my almost new, and read once or twice books as
gifts now, but quit buying a long time ago. [...]47_10Mar200514:11:43-0700michelletamar@HOTMAIL.COM 23150 112 20_disipline 4 year old14_Mandy Oeschger23_sailorswife@KNOLOGY.NET31_Thu, 10 Mar 2005 08:41:24 -0600584_iso-8859-1 Hi All,

I wanted to share my experience this morning. My son was having an umm.. "moment" where he told me "no" to something and was showing his rebelliousness by not obeying my simple request. He then proceded to empty his bladder in frustration. I thought OY VEH! do I call the phychologist now or later?!?! So, instead of losing my "cool" I dedided to "endorse myself" for those familiar with Miriam Adahan and think construcively. I had my son change his cloths, then proceed to pick up all books and toys scattered around family room, clean and vaccum his [...]45_10Mar200508:41:24-0600sailorswife@KNOLOGY.NET 23263 49 28_Re: books on parenting teens11_Rivky Kahan22_rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM31_Thu, 10 Mar 2005 13:21:07 -0500532_- I liked one by Foster Cline and Jim Fay who are
>the love and logic people.

Oh love and logic! Are my kids glad (cough cough) that i read one of these
Fay and Cline Love and Logic books! It talked about kids using what they
call "brain drain" on their parents. That is, when you say no to your kid,
and then he/she starts arguing about why not, and gives all kinds of reasons
why you should give him what he wants. No matter how many arguments and
reasons, you give for why the answer is no, the kid [...]44_10Mar200513:21:07-0500rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM 23313 279 18_Re: kallah classes11_Susan Lapin20_suelap@EARTHLINK.NET31_Thu, 10 Mar 2005 12:56:52 -0800344_iso-8859-1 Avigayil,

Did you work with JoAnn Pearlman?
.

>>> IMO. Though no one comes out and says it like this, the feeling
I'm left with is, "Just follow these rules and your marriage will be smooth
sailing. Taharat hamishpacha is the answer to your marital problems." Am I
the only one who feels this way? <<< [...]42_10Mar200512:56:52-0800suelap@EARTHLINK.NET 23593 66 24_Re: disipline 4 year old11_Rivky Kahan22_rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM31_Thu, 10 Mar 2005 17:23:55 -0500514_- Sounds okay to me. Let him pay the conssequences of his actions. Why should
YOU have to change his clothes and clean up after him? I guess as long as
you didnt tell him to do these things in a manner of a Drill Seargant (sp)
:-)
What i would do depends on the day. The way i'm feeling right now,i'd be too
tired even to notice anything. If i did notice, i may tell one of my
teenagers to handle it. See it all depends on our situation in life. Do we
have older kids? How much sleep did [...]44_10Mar200517:23:55-0500rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM 23660 73 28_Re: books on parenting teens14_Bill Bernstein27_billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET31_Thu, 10 Mar 2005 16:24:49 -0600540_ISO-8859-1 My kids used to start that business with "if you wont let us do this
then what about that" and we came up with a standard response: this is
not a shuk. We meant it too, we weren't going to haggle over what we
told them. They stopped doing it pretty quickly.
The answer to why is simple too: because I told you to/because I said so.
This isn't a philosophical debate. I'm the parent (one of them) and
because I'm now 43 years old, have learned a few things in that time,
and the Torah tells kids to obey [...]49_10Mar200516:24:49-0600billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET 23734 47 13_Re: Noachides11_Rivky Kahan22_rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM31_Thu, 10 Mar 2005 17:32:20 -0500537_- Thanks for the info Bill and Moriah. Live and Learn. I had thought Hashem's
laws to the nations of the world have been forgotten :-( I am very happy to
hear this. I will check this out when i get a chance. My husband says that
in order to keep sheva mitzvos properly, they would have to have a hechsher
on their meat, and also they would have to keep these mitzvos with the
kavanah the "G-D of Israel commanded them to do so" I would be facinated to
learn that there is any community that are doing these things [...]44_10Mar200517:32:20-0500rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM 23782 45 22_Jewish Story tapes/CDs14_Laya B Jackson17_tolife18@JUNO.COM31_Thu, 10 Mar 2005 22:44:13 -0500556_us-ascii Hi y'all,
CHODESH TOV.

Some of you may have heard of Rabbi Burston. He does Jewish story tapes.
I think all of them are taped from live story telling. His tapes are
reasonably priced at only $5 each. He has them all on tape and most are
also on CD for the same price. He's got a very large collection. He is
a chasid. His stories have Yiddish/Hebrew words in them. Like
"Kinderlach" etc. You can contact him if you want and he'll email you a
complete list of what he's got. He also has some new tapes of niggunim. [...]39_10Mar200522:44:13-0500tolife18@JUNO.COM 23828 61 13_Re: Noachides17_Chana Silberstein16_cs32@CORNELL.EDU31_Thu, 10 Mar 2005 22:43:46 -0500560_iso-8859-1 Actually, a number of them.
CS

>Thanks for the info Bill and Moriah. Live and Learn. I had thought
>Hashem's laws to the nations of the world have been forgotten :-( I
>am very happy to hear this. I will check this out when i get a
>chance. My husband says that in order to keep sheva mitzvos
>properly, they would have to have a hechsher on their meat, and also
>they would have to keep these mitzvos with the kavanah the "G-D of
>Israel commanded them to do so" I would be facinated to learn that
>there is any [...]38_10Mar200522:43:46-0500cs32@CORNELL.EDU 23890 126 18_Re: kallah classes16_Avigayil Simpson26_avigayil_simpson@YAHOO.COM31_Thu, 10 Mar 2005 21:40:34 -0800578_us-ascii Hi Susan,

Yes, I worked with JoAnn! She's married to the owner of the business. Small world. How do you know her? There is/was a Lapin family in Pittsburgh. Are you related?

I agree with what you wrote. My husband and I mutually decided to go for private couples counselling BEFORE we got married to explore the question of whether we were compatible or not but our case was unusual - we both were coming from previous marriages, both have kids and we have an age difference of 19 years...... We also have a therapist that we visit occasionally when [...]48_10Mar200521:40:34-0800avigayil_simpson@YAHOO.COM 24017 58 26_Re: Jewish Story tapes/CDs17_Chana Silberstein16_cs32@CORNELL.EDU31_Sat, 12 Mar 2005 20:25:53 -0500553_us-ascii You can also listen to Rabbi Burston ( and many others) on the web
for free at Jewishaudio.org.
Though of course it is nice to own a few of your favorites.
Chana

>Hi y'all,
>CHODESH TOV.
>
>Some of you may have heard of Rabbi Burston. He does Jewish story tapes.
> I think all of them are taped from live story telling. His tapes are
>reasonably priced at only $5 each. He has them all on tape and most are
>also on CD for the same price. He's got a very large collection. He is
>a chasid. His stories [...]38_12Mar200520:25:53-0500cs32@CORNELL.EDU 24076 117 16_Re: re; visitors11_Rivky Kahan22_rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM31_Sat, 12 Mar 2005 21:15:28 -0500593_- I had and still have alot of thoughts and mixed feelings when i read this,
which is why it has taken me some time to respond.
I have never lived in a place where there were any considerable number of
homeschoolers. When i think about what it would be like to live in a
community of frum homeschoolers, i have mixed feelings about the idea. At
first thought, it sounds wonderful. Everybody homeschooling. People
understanding each other's mentality-kids for my kids to play with durring
the day, etc. But then when i think about it more, i become concerned that
[...]44_12Mar200521:15:28-0500rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM 24194 67 24_books on parenting teens12_Caryn Lipson24_caryn_lipson@HOTMAIL.COM31_Sun, 13 Mar 2005 10:17:25 -0500584_iso-8859-1 Thanks for all the suggestions for books.

The one I found in the library was Parenting Teens with Love & Logic. Hoping
to find some of the others, as well.

A lot of what Fay & Cline say is very good and I hope to be able to
implement many of their suggestions. However, his "tough love" approach is
counter to Rabbi Rietti's thinking. It's really imperative to know the Torah
approach to all this and also to know your child. Some of what they suggest
(like selling the bike) would have terrible ramifications in my home. Was
the child [...]46_13Mar200510:17:25-0500caryn_lipson@HOTMAIL.COM 24262 124 13_Re: parenting13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Sun, 13 Mar 2005 08:32:52 -0800558_us-ascii I also would have a problem with doing something like selling the bike. I think it is more likely to produce resentment on the part of the child towards the parent than respect.

When I was about ten or eleven, my stepfather told me to put away some very expensive dolls (they were a special collection of four international dolls that I treasured) that were sitting on the couch. Later on, I couldn't find them, and asked everyone where they were. He told me he threw them away in the public dumpster. I asked why - and was told because [...]44_13Mar200508:32:52-0800avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 24387 343 13_Re: parenting17_Chana Silberstein16_cs32@CORNELL.EDU31_Sun, 13 Mar 2005 15:05:40 -0500448_us-ascii Thank you, Aviva for this post. I am disturbed by these stories that
are brought as evidence for the perfect parenting technique. Because
of course, you don't hear about the 100 times the strategy
backfired.. only about the one time that it worked.

As you note, almost every technique is effective sometimes, and
counterproductive at others. There are no magic formulas for molding
children into perfect adults. [...]38_13Mar200515:05:40-0500cs32@CORNELL.EDU 24731 30 60_Western Wall online documentary and other spectacular videos18_Mrs Moriah Chesler25_merilyn@CHESLER.ABSOL.COM31_Sun, 13 Mar 2005 15:19:51 -0500708_us-ascii As we finish Sefer Shemos and starting Sefer Vayikra, may we be zoche to
focus our efforts in rebuilding the 3rd Beis HaMikdash, through continual
Torah study and performance of mitzvos.

The following documentary by Rabbi Eli Teitelbaum on the Western Wall,
and others can be found here:

http://www.campsci.com/rvideo/kotel.htm

Shavuo Tov,
Moriah Chesler

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by
Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org,
a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and
an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...]47_13Mar200515:19:51-0500merilyn@CHESLER.ABSOL.COM 24762 39 77_Western Wall online documentary and other spectacular videos (fwd) correction18_Mrs Moriah Chesler25_merilyn@CHESLER.ABSOL.COM31_Sun, 13 Mar 2005 15:21:52 -0500622_us-ascii The Western Wall documentary is not by Rabbi Teitelbaum, sorry, it's by
Steven Hill.

But there are other spectacular documentaries by Rabbi Teitelbaum.

Moriah Chesler

>
> As we finish Sefer Shemos and starting Sefer Vayikra, may we be zoche to
> focus our efforts in rebuilding the 3rd Beis HaMikdash, through continual
> Torah study and performance of mitzvos.
>
> The following documentary by Rabbi Eli Teitelbaum on the Western Wall,
> and others can be found here:
>
> http://www.campsci.com/rvideo/kotel.htm
>
> Shavuo Tov,
> Moriah Chesler
> [...]47_13Mar200515:21:52-0500merilyn@CHESLER.ABSOL.COM 24802 108 13_Re: parenting12_Caryn Lipson24_caryn_lipson@HOTMAIL.COM31_Mon, 14 Mar 2005 07:14:54 -0500644_iso-8859-1 Re: [TORCH-D] parenting*I think that techniques are valuable, but only based on a solid relationship. They can make a good relationship better, but they can't substitute for communication, love, caring, trust, and respect.*

*I believe the heart of parenting is about modeling good behavior, showing love, setting limits, communicating honestly, transmitting values, and building relationships. when two of those criteria conflict ( as often they will), one has to use ones's instincts and do the best one can in deciding what matters most. And accept that you win some, you lose some, and try to learn from past errors.* [...]46_14Mar200507:14:54-0500caryn_lipson@HOTMAIL.COM 24911 66 23_Lets find out about sem11_Rivky Kahan22_rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM31_Mon, 14 Mar 2005 07:55:13 -0500512_- I have been thinking about my daughter who has been in school up through 9th
grade, but we have not send her to school this year for 10th. I will spare
everyone the reasons for our not sending her back to school.
She really would like to go to seminarry, and i think she'd like to go to
the type of seminarry her friends go to which is not neve, but more like
B.Y. I'm not ruling out neve, but i'd like to keep our options open.
So what i think i'd like to do, is instead of waiting til [...]44_14Mar200507:55:13-0500rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM 24978 106 27_Re: Lets find out about sem14_Bill Bernstein27_billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET31_Mon, 14 Mar 2005 09:14:24 -0600601_windows-1252 My first suggestion is to use spell-check and then have someone
proofread the letter. Sending a letter to a seminary with the word
mis-spelled is probably a bad idea.
Next, if the institution is going to be so closed-minded as to say, we
dont want homeschooled kids no matter what, do you really want to send
your child to that insititution? In looking for doctors, lawyer,
accountants, etc I have noticed that nice professionals (the kind I want
to deal with) tend to hire nice assistants. The opposite is also true.
I would also counsel not to put too much [...]49_14Mar200509:14:24-0600billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET 25085 341 36_Parenting with love and logic (long)14_Laya B Jackson17_tolife18@JUNO.COM31_Mon, 14 Mar 2005 10:28:38 -0500389_us-ascii I want to jump in on this discussion. The “love and logic” system has
helped me a lot, and the focus on one example (maybe taken out of
context) that appears negative does not leave the ideas in good stead.

Here's the foundation as I understand it:
We need to LOVE our children enough to allow them to experience the
natural consequences of their choices. [...]39_14Mar200510:28:38-0500tolife18@JUNO.COM 25427 235 13_Re: parenting14_Laya B Jackson17_tolife18@JUNO.COM31_Mon, 14 Mar 2005 10:54:31 -0500553_us-ascii the thing for me is that I'm not a "natural" parent. Loving my kids
comes naturally for sure. I have one "easy" kid and one "challenging"
kid. I can have a great natural relationship of mutual respect with the
easy one. I need all the help I can get with the hard one. I've read a
LOT of parenting books. (One I really like a lot is called Kid
Cooperation which I think is a nice synthesis of many of the books I've
read and it's short.) I've taken a little bit from each "system"
collecting parenting tools along the [...]39_14Mar200510:54:31-0500tolife18@JUNO.COM 25663 70 10_earning $$14_Mandy Oeschger23_sailorswife@KNOLOGY.NET31_Mon, 14 Mar 2005 11:51:15 -0600378_iso-8859-1 Hi,

What do you think about giving a 4 yr. old a little money ( a couple of quarters or so ) for doing things like cleaning which he usually has to do anyway? My son has a new electronic savings bank and is excited about putting money in it. The bank explains how much worth a quarter has and how many make a dollar, etc... so is educational too. Thanks! [...]45_14Mar200511:51:15-0600sailorswife@KNOLOGY.NET 25734 161 26_Re: Jewish Story tapes/CDs0_17_gillaweis@AOL.COM31_Mon, 14 Mar 2005 14:28:33 -0500389_us-ascii thankyou Laya for Rabbi Burston's e-mail. my kids love his tapes and I would love to get them on CD for the car.Even my older kids (well not all ) like listening to him over and over.

-----Original Message-----
From: Laya B Jackson
To: TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG
Sent: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 22:44:13 -0500
Subject: [TORCH-D] Jewish Story tapes/CDs [...]39_14Mar200514:28:33-0500gillaweis@AOL.COM 25896 71 40_Re: Parenting with love and logic (long)13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Mon, 14 Mar 2005 12:48:17 -0800408_us-ascii I wasn't impugning Love and Logic; I actually think that there are many good points in it. In fact, I use many of the techniques (for lack of a better word) they recommend (I never knew that's what I was doing until I was told :)). One day I may even get around to checking out one of their books from the library. I was just pointing out how an over-reliance on techniques can be detrimental. [...]44_14Mar200512:48:17-0800avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 25968 42 26_Re: Jewish Story tapes/CDs13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Mon, 14 Mar 2005 12:54:48 -0800552_us-ascii Thanks, Chana, for the jewishaudio.org link. I set my kids up in front of the computer with it while I prepared dinner - unbeknownst to me, it was an expensive move on my part! They were only able to hear the first four or five minutes of a story before it stopped connecting (probably an issue of personal computer incompatibility, not an issue for everyone). We already have about 25 of R' Burston's cassettes, and there is now a push for another purchase, which I agreed to. (I love when my kids are so grateful to me for getting them [...]44_14Mar200512:54:48-0800avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 26011 74 47_Free Frum Parenting of Teens Seminar - NYC Area13_Barbara Mazor19_barbmazor@YAHOO.COM31_Mon, 14 Mar 2005 13:56:33 -0800444_us-ascii For anyone who might be interested:

Positve Jewish Parenting
Sunday, March 20, 2005
8:45am - 1:30pm
Edward R. Murrow High School
1600 Ave L (E.16th & E.17th St.)
Brooklyn, NY
(By subway, Take the Q train to Ave. M Station)

Sponsored by OU, FEGS, MASK, BJENY and Assembly Dov
Hikind.

Keynote speakers 11:50am - 1:30pm
Rabbi Abraham J. Twerski, MD and Ravvi TZvi Hersh
Weinreb, Ph.D. [...]41_14Mar200513:56:33-0800barbmazor@YAHOO.COM 26086 21 24_off-topic: kosher cheese18_Mrs Moriah Chesler25_merilyn@CHESLER.ABSOL.COM31_Mon, 14 Mar 2005 21:31:06 -0500635_- Cabot Cheese is offering for promotional purposes, OU certified cheddar cheese,
http://store.cabotcheese.com/RetItems.tmpl?cart=111085334976596&catid=waxless
and if there's enough interest, they'll continue the line.

For those of you who don't live inside Jewish communities, the above might
interest you.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by
Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org,
a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and
an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...]47_14Mar200521:31:06-0500merilyn@CHESLER.ABSOL.COM 26108 63 28_Re: off-topic: kosher cheese13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Mon, 14 Mar 2005 19:06:10 -0800522_us-ascii Does anyone know what this means: 'certified halal by the Islamic Food and Nutrition Council of America (IFANCA)'? I know it means kosher for Muslims, or something to that effect, but what is it certifying?

Avivah

Mrs Moriah Chesler wrote:
Cabot Cheese is offering for promotional purposes, OU certified cheddar cheese,
http://store.cabotcheese.com/RetItems.tmpl?cart=111085334976596&catid=waxless
and if there's enough interest, they'll continue the line. [...]44_14Mar200519:06:10-0800avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 26172 291 28_Re: off-topic: kosher cheese8_S Sloman18_ssloman@NETLAB.COM31_Tue, 15 Mar 2005 06:23:34 -0500669_us-ascii That the enzymes used are not from a non-kosher animal, or an animal
slaughtered not slaughtered in accordance with Islamic requirements.

Shoshana Sloman
torch-d listowner

-----Original Message-----
From: Torah-Centered Homeschooling [mailto:TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG] On
Behalf Of Avivah Werner
Sent: Monday, March 14, 2005 10:06 PM
To: TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG
Subject: Re: [TORCH-D] off-topic: kosher cheese

Does anyone know what this means: 'certified halal by the Islamic Food
and Nutrition Council of America (IFANCA)'? I know it means kosher for
Muslims, or something to that effect, but what is it certifying? [...]40_15Mar200506:23:34-0500ssloman@NETLAB.COM 26464 73 28_Re: off-topic: kosher cheese18_Benjamin H Dickman19_bdickman@LUCENT.COM31_Mon, 14 Mar 2005 22:56:21 -0500773_us-ascii bs'd
It's probably certifying that the milk used to make the cheese
comes only from animals permitted to Muslims. That would
exclude pig milk, certainly, and probably exclude milk
from horses and mules.

References:
http://www.zpluspartners.com/kosherhalal2.pdf

http://leda.law.harvard.edu/leda/data/206/lstone.html

kol tuv,
Benzion Dickman

On 3/14/2005 10:06 PM, Avivah Werner wrote:
> Does anyone know what this means: 'certified halal by the Islamic Food
> and Nutrition Council of America (IFANCA)'? I know it means kosher for
> Muslims, or something to that effect, but what is it certifying?
>
> Avivah
>
> Mrs Moriah Chesler wrote:
>
> Cabot Cheese is [...]41_14Mar200522:56:21-0500bdickman@LUCENT.COM 26538 49 27_Re: Lets find out about sem11_Susan Lapin20_suelap@EARTHLINK.NET31_Mon, 14 Mar 2005 20:00:40 -0800578_iso-8859-1 >>>and i'd also appreciate if anyone here would have any contact information
for seminaries in Eretz Yisroel and elsewhere. Gateshead? If you know of a
seminarry, please share something about that seminarry, if you know anything
about it, and who at that seminarry would such a letter be adressed to,
thier address if you have it, or how can i get it.
Now if someone could figure out a proactive approach to find out how we'll
be accepted on the shiduch market... I dont feel like writing such a letter
to eligible bachlors... :-) Rivky<<<< [...]42_14Mar200520:00:40-0800suelap@EARTHLINK.NET 26588 89 18_Re: kallah classes11_Susan Lapin20_suelap@EARTHLINK.NET31_Mon, 14 Mar 2005 20:12:29 -0800562_iso-8859-1 >> Yes, I worked with JoAnn! She's married to the owner of the business.
Small world. How do you know her? There is/was a Lapin family in Pittsburgh.
Are you related? <<<

JoAnn was a member of our shul in California. In fact, my father-in-law
told her not to try to get home for Shavuos when her plane was delayed and
instead to stay where she was, in Pittsburgh. That yom tov she met her
future husband, which is one of my favorite stories that HaShem has a match
for everyone and it only takes an instant for your life [...]42_14Mar200520:12:29-0800suelap@EARTHLINK.NET 26678 44 17_Off-topic : halal18_Mrs Moriah Chesler25_merilyn@CHESLER.ABSOL.COM31_Tue, 15 Mar 2005 02:22:00 -0500625_us-ascii I looked it up on Google and there are many sites to give you the defnition
of halal. One is
http://www.azhar.jp/info/local-copies/fao-who-halal-def.html

But I cannot of course, guarantee that's what it really means to an
'Orthodox' Moslem!

But I can tell you from personal experience, when I met a frum Jewish
man who runs a butcher store in LA, he told me that a bunch of Malaysian
Moslems ordered meat from his store becuase they couldn't get halal meat
elsewhere at the time, and the reason they got it from him is because a
kosher shechitah requires that a blessing that [...]47_15Mar200502:22:00-0500merilyn@CHESLER.ABSOL.COM 26723 151 27_Re: Lets find out about sem12_Harry Broome21_harrybroome@YAHOO.COM31_Mon, 14 Mar 2005 23:25:33 -0800618_us-ascii I think it's a fine idea to find out at this point
what they are looking for in their prospective
students. But since your goal is to get your daughter
into seminary, and since we know we're not going to
open everyone's minds to the homeschooling idea
overnight, I would not use the word "homeschool" at
all - you'll avoid stigma and minimize
presuppositions. When the time to apply comes, you
can say your daughter went to such-and-such school(s)
until 10th grade, at which point you were blessed with
the opportunity to provide her with a customized
education in order [...]43_14Mar200523:25:33-0800harrybroome@YAHOO.COM 26875 25 12_writing link14_Laya B Jackson17_tolife18@JUNO.COM31_Tue, 15 Mar 2005 06:41:42 -0500607_us-ascii http://www.sarasota.k12.fl.us/bhs/bryan/bryan_home2.html

just found this. I was searching for something completely unrelated
about thank you notes and thought this might be a little tidbit that
could be useful.

Laya
(who should be packing and not on the computer)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by
Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org,
a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and
an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...]39_15Mar200506:41:42-0500tolife18@JUNO.COM 26901 371 18_Re: kallah classes14_Laya B Jackson17_tolife18@JUNO.COM31_Tue, 15 Mar 2005 06:01:08 -0500568_us-ascii Dear Susan, If I may, you are so articulate, what if YOU put a class
together? I was taught, "If you know "aleph" teach "aleph". You know so
much more than aleph and the need is great. There is a woman named Rivka
Katz (oh, I hope I got that name right!) who does amazing classes on
taharat Hamishpacha (family purity) and not the technical aspects, but
the real issues at hand. She teaches groups of women. Since this is a
mixed list, I don't really feel comfortable summarizing her teachings (or
at least what I took away from the [...]39_15Mar200506:01:08-0500tolife18@JUNO.COM 27273 25 19_Burston Purim tapes6_Zohari20_najova@EARTHLINK.NET31_Tue, 15 Mar 2005 07:09:05 -0700621_US-ASCII <<88-90 (available also CD, 60 (CD also), 189: all of these are about Purim!
I'll get back to you about Pesach and Shavuos, hopefully..>>

Here is a message I got back from Rabbi Burston regarding Purim tapes. They
are listed by number. E-mail him if you want to order.

Shoshana Z.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by
Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org,
a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and
an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...]42_15Mar200507:09:05-0700najova@EARTHLINK.NET 27299 69 28_Re: off-topic: kosher cheese18_Benjamin H Dickman19_bdickman@LUCENT.COM31_Tue, 15 Mar 2005 09:33:13 -0500703_us-ascii bs'd
Thank you, Shoshana.
Everyone should note that Islamic law has no prohibition of
meat/milk mixtures, so they would not have a problem with rennet
used to curdle the milk into cheese,
whereas Kosher might (LONG topic, not my expertise).

kol tuv,
Benzion Dickman

On 3/15/2005 6:23 AM, S Sloman wrote:
> That the enzymes used are not from a non-kosher animal, or an animal
> slaughtered not slaughtered in accordance with Islamic requirements.
>
>
>
> Shoshana Sloman
>
> torch-d listowner
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Torah-Centered Homeschooling [mailto:TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG] On
> Behalf Of Avivah [...]41_15Mar200509:33:13-0500bdickman@LUCENT.COM 27369 80 45_does homeschooling make you more interesting?13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Tue, 15 Mar 2005 08:48:25 -0800550_us-ascii This reminds me of something that happened when I spoke to a group of seminary girls at Maalot a couple of years ago about homeschooling. I spoke about the opportunity to follow a passion, among many other ideas, and seeing their blank looks, asked, "Have any of you had something you really loved to do, a passion, that you wish you had more time for?" There was a continued blankness, with the exception of only one girl in the room (there were probably between 25 and 30), who raised her hand and said she had loved piano and had to [...]44_15Mar200508:48:25-0800avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 27450 145 42_Re: financial classes (was kallah classes)13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Tue, 15 Mar 2005 09:01:40 -0800565_us-ascii >>Dear Susan, If I may, you are so articulate, what if YOU put a class together?<<
This is such a good idea - Susan is a wonderful teacher and would have fantastic perspectives to share.

Regarding a class in money management, I thought of something similar in Betar. I was noticing how many people weren't aware of how they spent money, and weren't in control of their finances. I was one of the very few people I knew in the city who didn't live in overdraft (which Israelis seem to consider the same as income), even though my husband was [...]44_15Mar200509:01:40-0800avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 27596 522 42_Re: financial classes (was kallah classes)14_Laya B Jackson17_tolife18@JUNO.COM31_Tue, 15 Mar 2005 12:30:38 -0500537_us-ascii Thanks for the encouragement Aviva. I would LOVE any and all of your
opinion/observations/topics that need discussing--or anyone else's ideas
for that matter. I'm really just in the "gestation" of this idea,
reading, mulling things over. I can't tell you how much waste I see (I
guess I don't have to). I was talking it over with a woman thinking that
she would never need a class like that and she jumped at the idea wanting
it right away!
KT,
Laya
(surrounded by the mess created with packing) [...]39_15Mar200512:30:38-0500tolife18@JUNO.COM 28119 154 22_interesting hschoolers11_Susan Lapin20_suelap@EARTHLINK.NET31_Tue, 15 Mar 2005 11:22:49 -0800583_iso-8859-1 >>>Would you elaborate, Susan, on why your son made the comment he did about
getting less interesting as he spends more time in college? What is it
about college that creates that?<<<

It's really a question of time. He's doing a physics degree (I don't have
the foggiest comprehension of anything he's learning) which means calculus
classes as well. Add to that a few hours a day of Torah learning and
required courses and he has no time left. For a kid who had many interests,
he's finding it very hard to not have time to even keep up with [...]42_15Mar200511:22:49-0800suelap@EARTHLINK.NET 28274 92 42_Re: financial classes (was kallah classes)11_Susan Lapin20_suelap@EARTHLINK.NET31_Tue, 15 Mar 2005 11:25:08 -0800502_iso-8859-1 >>Dear Susan, If I may, you are so articulate, what if YOU put a class
together?<<
>> This is such a good idea - Susan is a wonderful teacher and would have
fantastic perspectives to share. <<<

Thanks for the vote of confidence. Actually, I'm always nervous about
having a tape recorder running when I teach, but next year I will have no
one home as things look now (do I get to stay on this list?) and I am
thinking about doing more teaching in the community. [...]42_15Mar200511:25:08-0800suelap@EARTHLINK.NET 28367 30 7_digest?11_Rivky Kahan22_rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM31_Tue, 15 Mar 2005 14:46:02 -0500515_- I was not able to get on the computer yesterday. I get on today, and find
many wonderful posts. I feel like i'm drowning, and am beggining to feel
stressed trying to keep up with all of this. I dont want to feel that i have
to keep checking the computer just to keep up with this. So i'm wondering
what Digest is like, and if it might make things more managable for me.
Would i get all the posts? In one click? Could i respond to any one of them
indivually? And would i get it the same day [...]44_15Mar200514:46:02-0500rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM 28398 432 42_Re: financial classes (was kallah classes)8_S Sloman18_ssloman@NETLAB.COM31_Tue, 15 Mar 2005 16:29:57 -0500442_us-ascii Susan Lapin wrote:

> next year I will have no one home as things look now (do I get to stay
on this list?)

Oh, please do stay on the list, and give us the benefit of your years of
experience. I always think it's a shame when inexperienced women are
left to struggle because they don't have guidance from those who have
been there, done that. (Of course, in this case, it's parents, not just
women.) [...]40_15Mar200516:29:57-0500ssloman@NETLAB.COM 28831 75 11_Re: digest?13_Barbara Mazor19_barbmazor@YAHOO.COM31_Tue, 15 Mar 2005 17:42:34 -0800541_us-ascii >>So i'm wondering
what Digest is like, and if it might make things more managable for me.
Would i get all the posts? In one click? Could i respond to any one of them
indivually? And would i get it the same day or the next day?<<

If you change your setting to digest, you will get one e-mail per 24 hr period (provided someone has submitted a post, of course) that will contain all the postings for the previous 24 hours. So, suppose the digest is sent at 5PM everyday. You might receive in it a post as recent [...]41_15Mar200517:42:34-0800barbmazor@YAHOO.COM 28907 79 11_Re: digest?11_Rivky Kahan22_rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM31_Tue, 15 Mar 2005 20:50:16 -0500643_- Thanks for the info. Let me think about it. rivky

>From: Barbara Mazor
>Reply-To: Torah-Centered Homeschooling
>To: TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG
>Subject: Re: [TORCH-D] digest?
>Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 17:42:34 -0800
>
> >>So i'm wondering
>what Digest is like, and if it might make things more managable for me.
>Would i get all the posts? In one click? Could i respond to any one of them
>indivually? And would i get it the same day or the next day?<<
>
>If you change your setting to digest, you will get one e-mail per 24 hr
>period (provided someone has [...]44_15Mar200520:50:16-0500rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM 28987 94 42_Re: financial classes (was kallah classes)15_Michelle Miller25_michelletamar@HOTMAIL.COM31_Tue, 15 Mar 2005 23:03:07 -0700683_- Susan,

Please do stay on this list!! Your experience and wisdom inspire us all.
Personally, you have been a great source of koach for me. Also, I (and I'm
sure others) are always interested in how your ex-hschoolers are faring in
the world of frumkeit:)

Kol Tuv,
Michelle

From: S Sloman
>Reply-To: Torah-Centered Homeschooling
>To: TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG
>Subject: Re: [TORCH-D] financial classes (was kallah classes)
>Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 16:29:57 -0500
>
>Susan Lapin wrote:
>
> > next year I will have no one home as things look now (do I get to stay
>on this list?)
[...]47_15Mar200523:03:07-0700michelletamar@HOTMAIL.COM 29082 23 28_Re: Let's find out about sem18_Mrs Moriah Chesler25_merilyn@CHESLER.ABSOL.COM31_Wed, 16 Mar 2005 03:23:43 -0500559_- >
>He feels that, Kal vachomer, if you spend your
>entire life in school, it's really hard to be interesting.
>

I guess that means the majority of us are 'non-interesting' people. ;)

No offense taken. It's Purim after all.

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The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by
Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org,
a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and
an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...]47_16Mar200503:23:43-0500merilyn@CHESLER.ABSOL.COM 29106 58 21_Re: interesting hsers18_Mrs Moriah Chesler25_merilyn@CHESLER.ABSOL.COM31_Wed, 16 Mar 2005 03:44:50 -0500566_- For those of us fascinated and 'educated' in Science and have a passion for
Torah, there is so much to be awe-inspired by HaShem's involvement in the
world. The door to reaaly appreciate HaShem and find connections between
Science and Torah is there to open.

Learning Torah from a Science perspective (esp. Physics) is truly
fascinating. Maybe for those of us who don't find Physics interesting can
have a change of heart after learning from Dr. Gerald Shroeder
(sp?), Rabbi Nosson Slifkin, Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan, zt"l, the RamBAN, etc. [...]47_16Mar200503:44:50-0500merilyn@CHESLER.ABSOL.COM 29165 379 27_Re: Lets find out about sem0_17_gillaweis@AOL.COM31_Wed, 16 Mar 2005 09:46:42 -0500519_utf-8 I don't know if this info will help you at all but my daughter who is now in 12th grade at Beis Chana has applied to 2 sem's in Israel. It is interesting to note that she and all the girls had their interviews in January and they are supposed to be notified as to where they are accepted sometime between Purim and Pesach. I know that they did send a transcript from school but this is even before they have finnished 12th grade and I also know of girls who left school after 11th grade and went straight to [...]39_16Mar200509:46:42-0500gillaweis@AOL.COM 29545 136 42_Re: financial classes (was kallah classes)14_Laya B Jackson17_tolife18@JUNO.COM31_Wed, 16 Mar 2005 17:18:35 -0500429_us-ascii Dear Susan, you can get a nice little mirophone (either so only you're
heard or so it can pick up comments in the group), use a mini CD to
record, then take it home and EDIT it on your computer. Any um's or what
ever can be removed. You can also take the best of the best classes and
edit them together to make a recording of all the gold nuggets that come
out of a class...
Just FYI. :-)
Laya [...]39_16Mar200517:18:35-0500tolife18@JUNO.COM 29682 127 27_Re: Lets find out about sem11_Rivky Kahan22_rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM31_Wed, 16 Mar 2005 21:27:50 -0500358_- Well, i guess i would write it on Microsoft Word, so it would underline my
misspelled words.
If they said that they dont want hsers no matter what, my daughter WOULD
want to go to such an institution. She just wants to go to seminarry.
Why did this man you mention call up sounding like Gomer PIle and say he is
Martin L King jr? Rivky [...]44_16Mar200521:27:50-0500rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM 29810 62 27_Re: Lets find out about sem11_Rivky Kahan22_rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM31_Wed, 16 Mar 2005 21:41:27 -0500685_- >From: Harry Broome
>Reply-To: Torah-Centered Homeschooling
>To: TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG
>Subject: Re: [TORCH-D] Lets find out about sem
>Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 23:25:33 -0800
>
>I think it's a fine idea to find out at this point
>what they are looking for in their prospective
>students. But since your goal is to get your daughter
>into seminary, and since we know we're not going to
>open everyone's minds to the homeschooling idea
>overnight, I would not use the word "homeschool" at
>all - you'll avoid stigma and minimize
>presuppositions. When the time to apply comes, you
>can say your [...]44_16Mar200521:41:27-0500rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM 29873 207 27_Re: Lets find out about sem11_Rivky Kahan22_rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM31_Wed, 16 Mar 2005 21:44:04 -0500631_- Thanks for the info. Good to know.
Could you send me some infor about the sems your daughter applied to? Tell
me about the seminarry itself and also contact info please. Thanks. rivky

>From: gillaweis@AOL.COM
>Reply-To: Torah-Centered Homeschooling
>To: TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG
>Subject: Re: [TORCH-D] Lets find out about sem
>Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 09:46:42 -0500
>
>I don't know if this info will help you at all but my daughter who is now
>in 12th grade at Beis Chana has applied to 2 sem's in Israel. It is
>interesting to note that she and all the girls had their [...]44_16Mar200521:44:04-0500rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM 30081 76 27_Re: Lets find out about sem11_Rivky Kahan22_rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM31_Wed, 16 Mar 2005 21:32:59 -0500691_- I got a kick out of what your son said.
could you send me the contact info on those seminaries?
What is a "Sarah Shinerer" seminary? Is that a specific type?

>From: Susan Lapin
>Reply-To: Torah-Centered Homeschooling
>To: TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG
>Subject: Re: [TORCH-D] Lets find out about sem
>Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 20:00:40 -0800
>
> >>>and i'd also appreciate if anyone here would have any contact
>information
>for seminaries in Eretz Yisroel and elsewhere. Gateshead? If you know of a
>seminarry, please share something about that seminarry, if you know
>anything
>about it, and who at that [...]44_16Mar200521:32:59-0500rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM 30158 179 14_Re: earning $$12_Yael Resnick22_njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM31_Thu, 17 Mar 2005 00:18:26 -0500610_us-ascii Hi Mandy,

My eight-year-old son has been earning money (to put in *his* new
bank that counts up the coins) by doing extra jobs around the house.
A while ago, I made a "job jar" (actually a little hot-pink gift bag
that hangs on our kitchen bulletin board) filled with clean-up tasks
that nobody ever seemed to get around to... like sweeping under
certain pieces of furniture, or cleaning the windowsills and
baseboards, organizing certain cabinets, or dealing with the shoes
and coats etc. that get tossed on the mudroom floor. My kids can
choose a job any time (I [...]44_17Mar200500:18:26-0500njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM 30338 31 27_Re: Lets find out about sem11_Susan Lapin20_suelap@EARTHLINK.NET31_Wed, 16 Mar 2005 21:39:39 -0800509_iso-8859-1 I don't have contact info, but the seminary is in Manchester, England so you
should be able to find it. Sarah Schenirer was the founder of the Bais
Yaakov movement and the seminary is named for her. What I know about it is
that there are very few Americans (a plus or minus depending on your
daughter), it's in a very Arab neighborhood, and it emphasizes large shiurim
lectures rather than small classes. I think I was told it's much more
hashkafa oriented than skill based. [...]42_16Mar200521:39:39-0800suelap@EARTHLINK.NET 30370 24 12_Burston list6_Zohari20_najova@EARTHLINK.NET31_Wed, 16 Mar 2005 23:18:33 -0700567_US-ASCII For anyone interested, I received the entire tape list from Rabbi Burston.
I will forward it to anyone who e-mails me off-list. It includes his
current address for placing orders. All the best,

Shoshana Z.

najova@earthlink.net

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The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by
Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org,
a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and
an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...]42_16Mar200523:18:33-0700najova@EARTHLINK.NET 30395 20 14_Re: earning $$15_Ilana Michelson21_stonemaker@HOTPOP.COM31_Thu, 17 Mar 2005 23:45:32 +0200503_us-ascii The job jar mood is a great idea, thanks I'll have to use it and I love
the happy hour idea as well.
Thanks Ilana

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To unsubscribe email: TORCH-D-unsubscribe-request@SHAMASH.ORG43_17Mar200523:45:32+0200stonemaker@HOTPOP.COM 30416 57 27_Re: Lets find out about sem18_Benjamin H Dickman19_bdickman@LUCENT.COM31_Thu, 17 Mar 2005 21:49:58 -0500596_us-ascii bs'd
When I had an opportunity once to speak with a young lady who attended
a seminary, we were briefly discussing a certain halakha, and she said
that she had learned in seminary that a certain practice was forbidden.
Now, I knew that a stringent opinion might consider the item forbidden,
but other opinions might permit it. What disturbed me was that she had
no clue about the acceptable differences in halakhic practice. Going
into a marriage, it is important to know all about the gray areas and
when to make a fuss and when not to. I'm wondering which [...]41_17Mar200521:49:58-0500bdickman@LUCENT.COM 30474 60 14_Re: earning $$10_Louise Fox20_louise@JOSHUAFOX.COM31_Sat, 19 Mar 2005 21:16:36 +0200404_us-ascii I personally do not think that any external motivators are ever a good
idea.
Think for a minute what the long-term effects might be? And where do you
want this to lead? Ultimately, will you have to pay more money? How much
more? How far are you willing to go? Will the jobs stop getting done if
you don't pay enough money? If the jobs don't get done, then what do you
do? [...]42_19Mar200521:16:36+0200louise@JOSHUAFOX.COM 30535 53 21_In the spirit of Adar14_Laya B Jackson17_tolife18@JUNO.COM31_Sat, 19 Mar 2005 20:03:26 -0500620_us-ascii The boss of a big company who needed to call one of his employees about
an urgent problem with one of the main computers, dialed the employee's
home phone number and was greeted with a child's whisper,
"Hello."
"Is your daddy home?" he asked.
"Yes," whispered the small voice.
"May I talk with him?"
The child whispered, "No."
Surprised, and wanting to talk with an adult, the boss asked, "Is your
mommy? there?"
"Yes."
"May I talk with her?"
Again the small voice whispered, "No."
Hoping there was somebody with whom he could leave a message, the boss
asked, "Is [...]39_19Mar200520:03:26-0500tolife18@JUNO.COM 30589 97 14_Re: earning $$12_Yael Resnick22_njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM31_Sun, 20 Mar 2005 10:02:08 -0500649_us-ascii Dear Louise,

It's a very big generalization to say that external motivators are
never a good idea.

But just to clarify -- our "job jar" and "happy hour" are all just
*extra* things, totally optional, over and above the kids' everyday
obligations around the house. They know perfectly well what they are
responsible for, which is quite a lot! Helping with the usual
clean-up, keeping their rooms clean, doing their schoolwork, helping
with setting/clearing the table, helping with the baby, and other
various jobs as they come up, like collecting trash, sweeping, etc. I
never pay for any of that, [...]44_20Mar200510:02:08-0500njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM 30687 41 14_Re: earning $$12_Yael Resnick22_njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM31_Sun, 20 Mar 2005 10:23:41 -0500566_us-ascii One more quick thing :

I do something similar, but without calling it a problem. When it's
time for everyone to get off their tushies and pitch in to get things
straightened up (usually stuff that has to get done weekly, or just
whenever there's a need) I often list jobs and let the kids put their
initial next to the ones they want to do (I'll tell everyone to pick
3, for example, and they take turns picking). Sometimes I just make
little lists (usually 3 jobs) on slips of paper and hand one to each
child -- sometimes [...]44_20Mar200510:23:41-0500njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM 30729 32 11_earning $$$15_Michelle Miller25_michelletamar@HOTMAIL.COM31_Sun, 20 Mar 2005 08:27:26 -0700608_- Thank you Yael for the great idea;) We too require a lot of chores "just
because," however, this is a fun, creative way to earn some extra.

I think it's great for children to earn money for extra work. My husband
goes to work and straps guns on people (we own a security guard business)
for the money.....period. Although he has the satisfaction of having
created this entity, "parnassah" is the reason. Children need to have some
training that work equals money. How else will they derive a work ethic
that translates into earning money to support their families (especially [...]47_20Mar200508:27:26-0700michelletamar@HOTMAIL.COM 30762 21 18_Mom needs guidance13_Dalia Frydman24_daliafrydman@HOTMAIL.COM31_Sun, 20 Mar 2005 07:24:21 -08000_46_20Mar200507:24:21-0800daliafrydman@HOTMAIL.COM 30784 44 15_Re: earning $$$12_Yael Resnick22_njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM31_Sun, 20 Mar 2005 10:45:40 -0500401_us-ascii It's nice to hear that my ideas were helpful to some people. Of
course, what works for me might not work for everyone. For our
family, this is the right balance.

> Children need to have some training that work equals money. How
>else will they derive a work ethic that translates into earning
>money to support their families (especially for boys)?.
>
>Michelle [...]44_20Mar200510:45:40-0500njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM 30829 51 15_Re: earning $$$10_Louise Fox20_louise@JOSHUAFOX.COM31_Sun, 20 Mar 2005 21:10:01 +0200451_us-ascii Clarification of my last post..

It is not that I don't think that kids need to learn (eventually) to
work for parnassa, but I don't think this should begin at home with
parents paying kids, nor do I think it necessary that it begin at such a
young age.
Being an unschooler-type, I also don't think this is something we need
to "teach" our kids to do. They will learn it all by themselves when
they're ready....! [...]42_20Mar200521:10:01+0200louise@JOSHUAFOX.COM 30881 38 15_Re: earning $$$15_Ilana Michelson21_stonemaker@HOTPOP.COM31_Sun, 20 Mar 2005 21:30:10 +0200556_us-ascii I think it all boils down to a common concept. People, children included
are willing to do a less desired thing in order to get something more
desirable. In one case money is the more desirable thing in another
doing an activity or getting a meal earlier is the more desireable
thing.
I don't think it is manipulation or a threat. My kids wanted a way to
earn money so that they could go and buy themselves things every now and
then. I wasn't going to send them out to work so giving them extra
chores for money was a [...]43_20Mar200521:30:10+0200stonemaker@HOTPOP.COM 30920 27 15_Re: earning $$$15_Ilana Michelson21_stonemaker@HOTPOP.COM31_Sun, 20 Mar 2005 23:39:42 +0200519_us-ascii Actually my son saves up and buys himself playmobile knights and sets
which he collects and plays with.
My daughters used some of their money to buy themselves props for purim
costumes that they wanted and for playmobile sets.
I supervise what they buy and if once in a while they buy junk toys and
are sorry about it the toy gets chucked and they've learned a good
lesson.
I think everyone has to find what works for them and their families. No
one way is the right way.
Ilana [...]43_20Mar200523:39:42+0200stonemaker@HOTPOP.COM 30948 47 37_OT-frugal price booking kosher style?15_Nicole Brackman18_drnb1969@YAHOO.COM31_Sun, 20 Mar 2005 14:57:14 -0800443_us-ascii Hi everyone!

Sorry for the OT post. I saw a few people mention they "tightwad" (a la The Tightwad Gazette). I am working on a price book but am having a great deal of trouble dealing with the kosher markets vs. the regular supermarket, and figuring out how to manage this. This is mostly a problem because frequently the kosher markets do not have prices for individual items on the shelves, and almost never unit prices. [...]40_20Mar200514:57:14-0800drnb1969@YAHOO.COM 30996 68 41_Re: OT-frugal price booking kosher style?13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Sun, 20 Mar 2005 19:35:49 -0800553_us-ascii Are you saying they don't put prices on anything? If so, there's not any suggestion I can think of that will be helpful, except to ask the prices from an employee of the items that interest you.

If the problem is just that they don't post unit prices, that's easy. In order to compare prices, you need to compare equal amounts to equal amounts; ie, ounces to ounces, pounds to pounds, etc. So take your calculator with you and do some basic division to figure out how much an ounce (or whatever is) is, and in your price book, keep [...]44_20Mar200519:35:49-0800avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 31065 93 15_Re: earning $$$12_Yael Resnick22_njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM31_Sun, 20 Mar 2005 22:03:40 -0500426_us-ascii Hi Louise,

I'm enjoying this discussion and appreciate the opportunity to
clarify my own thoughts in my head!

>Being an unschooler-type, I also don't think this is something we
>need to "teach" our kids to do. They will learn it all by themselves
>when they're ready....!

I'm pretty unschooler-ish myself! That's why this whole job jar thing
started. The idea came from my kids! [...]44_20Mar200522:03:40-0500njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM 31159 36 15_Re: earning $$$12_Yael Resnick22_njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM31_Sun, 20 Mar 2005 22:14:31 -0500568_us-ascii I agree. Recently my daughter bought a stretchy thing for a couple of
dollars... it was just a long,stretchy, slightly sticky thing, really
not much fun for a 10-year-old girl at all! (I wasn't with her when
she bought it; she had been out with my mother on an errand.) She
instantly regretted it when she opened the package at home, and cried
about what a waste it was. We used it as an opportunity to talk more
about money stuff, and to put her small mistake into perspective. I
think she did learn as much from that experience as [...]44_20Mar200522:14:31-0500njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM 31196 106 15_Re: earning $$$13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Sun, 20 Mar 2005 20:08:29 -0800498_us-ascii I have been thinking about precisely this topic, of extrinsic vs. intrinsic motivation, for the last few days. I agree with everyone who has so far posted, and think it is interesting how much you all agree except in small details that almost seem to be semantics. (However, as a homeschooler, I have noticed how often what seem to be minor differences in fact can often be very major - and the opposite is also true, that seemingly huge differences are often nothing consequential>) [...]44_20Mar200520:08:29-0800avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 31303 236 41_Re: OT-frugal price booking kosher style?8_S Sloman18_ssloman@NETLAB.COM31_Mon, 21 Mar 2005 05:14:01 -0500517_us-ascii >Don't say peanut butter is 99 cents, say one ounce is 5 cents,
>and then regardless of container size, you will have a consistent
>bottom line price to gauge everything else by.

Of course, you also need to be aware that the unit prize can vary with
the container size. So you need to determine unit price for each of the
various sizes that could possibly work for you. (In some cases, unit
price is actually HIGHER for a larger container. I guess they are
trying to trick us?) [...]40_21Mar200505:14:01-0500ssloman@NETLAB.COM 31540 48 30_Intrinsic/Extrinsic Motivators17_Chana Silberstein16_cs32@CORNELL.EDU31_Sun, 20 Mar 2005 23:31:09 -0500565_us-ascii Thought some of you might be interested in an article I wrote for
Wellsprings a few years back on the subject of motivation.
Link below:
http://www.e-wellsprings.org/Article.asp?Article=25

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The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by
Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org,
a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and
an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/38_20Mar200523:31:09-0500cs32@CORNELL.EDU 31589 53 34_Re: OT-Tightwadding and price book15_Nicole Brackman18_drnb1969@YAHOO.COM31_Mon, 21 Mar 2005 05:18:20 -0800468_us-ascii Hi!

Thanks for your insights Avivah. The problem isn't that I don't know how to figure out unit prices, but that there isn't always enough information. If there is a price listed, it's frequently not for the size container that's on the shelf (rolling my eyes). Or there is a price listed for only one brand. Obviously it's a marking problem with the stores but it's aggravating because there is almost never an employee around when you need one. [...]40_21Mar200505:18:20-0800drnb1969@YAHOO.COM 31643 161 41_Re: OT-frugal price booking kosher style?13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Mon, 21 Mar 2005 07:00:54 -0800540_us-ascii This is what I meant, that once you know how much an ounce is, you can compare ounces of other products, regardless of the size container it is in, and thereby figure out the best price.

Nicole - how about writing a letter to the management of the market you frequent, and involve your daughter in the process? I would go nuts in a store like this - I can't stand hoping that what I am buying is a reasonable price and not finding out until I get to the checkout. If enough customers complain, then things will change. [...]44_21Mar200507:00:54-0800avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 31805 65 34_Re: Intrinsic/Extrinsic Motivators13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Mon, 21 Mar 2005 07:05:06 -0800474_us-ascii Chana, you are way too modest!! This article is simply fabulous - you successfully defined the distinctions that I was struggling to identify between how rewards are seen in Jewish sources. I think posting the text it its entirety is appropriate in light of the current discussion - someone might not follow the link and would miss out on a very relevant and helpful article. This is just what I would have wanted to write about if I had the clarity you have. [...]44_21Mar200507:05:06-0800avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 31871 47 34_Re: Intrinsic/Extrinsic Motivators15_Michelle Miller25_michelletamar@HOTMAIL.COM31_Mon, 21 Mar 2005 09:45:42 -0700970_- Chana,

I would like to second Avivah's request that you please post the article
without the link.

Michelle

>From: Chana Silberstein
>Reply-To: Torah-Centered Homeschooling
>To: TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG
>Subject: [TORCH-D] Intrinsic/Extrinsic Motivators
>Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 23:31:09 -0500
>
>Thought some of you might be interested in an article I wrote for
>Wellsprings a few years back on the subject of motivation.
>Link below:
>http://www.e-wellsprings.org/Article.asp?Article=25
>
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------
>The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by
>Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org,
>a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and
>an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/
>
>To unsubscribe [...]47_21Mar200509:45:42-0700michelletamar@HOTMAIL.COM 31919 24 34_Re: Intrinsic/Extrinsic Motivators10_Louise Fox20_louise@JOSHUAFOX.COM31_Mon, 21 Mar 2005 21:57:51 +0200513_us-ascii Chava,
Your article states everything I could have wanted to say on the
subject, in much better words than I could ever have chosen. Thank you
for that article.
Louise
in Israel

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The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by
Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org,
a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and
an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...]42_21Mar200521:57:51+0200louise@JOSHUAFOX.COM 31944 55 15_Re: earning $$$10_Louise Fox20_louise@JOSHUAFOX.COM31_Mon, 21 Mar 2005 22:11:59 +0200609_us-ascii Yael,

> I'm enjoying this discussion and appreciate the opportunity to clarify
> my own thoughts in my head!

I am also enjoying the discussion and I think we are closer in position
than might have appeared from both our initial posts on the subject :-)

> I guess I don't agree that external motivators are necessarily bribes
> or threats. Everyone uses and responds to external motivators to some
> degree. Do you ever thank your children? That's an external
> motivation. Do you brush your teeth because you like to, or because if
> you don't, you'll get [...]42_21Mar200522:11:59+0200louise@JOSHUAFOX.COM 32000 52 41_Re: OT-frugal price booking kosher style?15_Alison Jacobson23_alisonziskind@YAHOO.COM31_Mon, 21 Mar 2005 12:19:19 -0800492_us-ascii --- Avivah Werner wrote:
> This is what I meant, that once you know how much an
> ounce is, you can compare ounces of other products,
> regardless of the size container it is in, and
> thereby figure out the best price.

Hey, you guys are lucky you have what to compare to!
In the small communities, you pay the going rate, no
matter how high. Truly, I've stopped looking at
prices because it's not worth the heart attack. :) [...]45_21Mar200512:19:19-0800alisonziskind@YAHOO.COM 32053 115 41_Re: OT-frugal price booking kosher style?12_Harry Broome21_harrybroome@YAHOO.COM31_Mon, 21 Mar 2005 15:55:34 -0800555_us-ascii The most important thing when CREATING the price book
is the receipt. As long as you know what each item is
on the receipt (make a note right after you shop if
the receipt isn't clear), you can calculate the unit
cost (x cents per ounce, for example). You only have
to calcuate the unit cost in the store itself when you
are trying to figure out if the item is a "good deal"
relative to what you've seen before (as evidenced by
your price book). And often you don't have to really
calculate in the store - you can [...]43_21Mar200515:55:34-0800harrybroome@YAHOO.COM 32169 97 15_Re: earning $$$12_Yael Resnick22_njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM31_Mon, 21 Mar 2005 20:24:12 -0500632_us-ascii I read Chana's article, and it is indeed wonderful! But I think it's
more applicable to the whole idea of giving rewards for *learning*
than for doing extra chores, which was the original focus of this
thread. On the subject of giving rewards for learning, I agree that
money, prizes, etc. are best avoided and are usually
counterproductive. I've been trying (unsuccessfully) to get that
message across to our local school, where incentives such as candy,
prizes, "Torah dollars" (to trade in for prizes), pizza parties, and
so on definitely do seem to diminish the kids' intrinsic motivation. [...]44_21Mar200520:24:12-0500njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM 32267 137 15_Re: earning $$$11_Rivky Kahan22_rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM31_Mon, 21 Mar 2005 22:46:55 -0500553_- I havent read many posts on this thread, but has anybody here tried
homeschooling a kid with severe ADD without extrinsic (sp) rewards? If so,
i'd love to hear how you do this, aside from giving the kid Ridilin.
My son has been having trouble telling the difference between numbers in the
teens and two digit numbers that end in one. 19/91 and such. I told him when
its a teen number the one is on the left side of the number, but he still
was not cooperating because he didnt have the patience to think. I finally
made some [...]44_21Mar200522:46:55-0500rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM 32405 97 41_Re: OT-frugal price booking kosher style?13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Mon, 21 Mar 2005 20:12:37 -0800560_us-ascii Actually, I am not much of a 'glatt' kosher food shopper. I buy basic staples for the most part that are found anywhere - flour, grains, beans, fruits, veggies, tofu, canned salmon, eggs. I don't use any dairy and usually only have chicken on Shabbos, sometimes I get some other kind of meat product for the week but my regular staple is tvp. I don't buy blintzes, knishes, pizza, matzo balls.....I do most of my cooking from scratch. When you don't get the processed offerings, it cuts down lots on what you can only get in a kosher market (and [...]44_21Mar200520:12:37-0800avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 32503 36 34_Re: Intrinsic/Extrinsic Motivators17_Chana Silberstein16_cs32@CORNELL.EDU31_Mon, 21 Mar 2005 22:59:30 -0500632_us-ascii I have to track down my original copy of the article.. Will try to
do this tomorrow.

>Chana,
>
>I would like to second Avivah's request that you please post the
>article without the link.
>
>Michelle
>
>
>
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------
>The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by
>Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org,
>a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and
>an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/
>
>To unsubscribe email: TORCH-D-unsubscribe-request@SHAMASH.ORG [...]38_21Mar200522:59:30-0500cs32@CORNELL.EDU 32540 171 15_Re: earning $$$14_Mandy Oeschger23_sailorswife@KNOLOGY.NET31_Tue, 22 Mar 2005 05:43:08 -0600491_iso-8859-1 Rivky,

Sounds like you're doing a good job to me. Just the fact that you're taking
the time to work with your son is a big step in the right direction. He'll
remember your support. If it helps ease your mind at all, I do have a
sister who had the same problem with numbers for years and finally grew out
of it but it took a lot of patient help from her parents. Keep up the good
work, it's a great thing to be with your children and helping them daily. [...]45_22Mar200505:43:08-0600sailorswife@KNOLOGY.NET 32712 370 41_Re: OT-frugal price booking kosher style?12_Caryn Lipson24_caryn_lipson@HOTMAIL.COM31_Tue, 22 Mar 2005 07:19:06 -0500345_iso-8859-1 Hi,

I know the following is digressing a bit but I think the following information is important - it's not what the soy industry puts out so most people don't realize that there is another school of thought regarding the healthfulness of soy products which are not fermented, such as tofu and other soy products like tvp. [...]46_22Mar200507:19:06-0500caryn_lipson@HOTMAIL.COM 33083 69 15_Re: earning $$$12_Yael Resnick22_njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM31_Tue, 22 Mar 2005 09:53:17 -0500521_us-ascii OK, you got me thinking... I do think (a) parents are more likely to
feel the need for some kind of reward system when dealing with a more
challenging child, and (b) maybe external motivation is more likely
to be effective for certain kids, such as those with ADD, than
others. I don't have personal experience with ADD, but my son is very
high-energy and if he's left purely to his own internal sources of
motivation, it can sometimes be wonderfully productive, and sometimes
chaotic. [...]44_22Mar200509:53:17-0500njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM 33153 131 41_Re: OT-frugal price booking kosher style?14_Bill Bernstein27_billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET31_Tue, 22 Mar 2005 09:15:36 -0600555_ISO-8859-1 <(hmm, do you think with that name they would be less likely to order
kosher chicken?). >>

Hey, don't diss the Piggly Wiggly. They're an icon in some places.
I had no trouble getting kosher chicken in the Kroger in Raleigh-Durham
in the late 1980's. Don't ask the cost though. Sometimes you are just
happy to have something at all.
Bill Bernstein
Nashville.
Probably Dad to 2 Great Kids (and maybe more but we dont talk about
that....) [...]49_22Mar200509:15:36-0600billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET 33285 61 31_learning game [was earning $$$]13_Barbara Mazor19_barbmazor@YAHOO.COM31_Tue, 22 Mar 2005 15:11:56 -0800520_us-ascii >> I finally made some homemade flash cards with
numbers on them. I told him he gets two minutes to
read the number. If he reads it right, he keeps the
card. If not, I keep it. We'll see who wins the game.
For every card he gets he gets to color a square on
this chart we had drawn up for him. He gets a prize at
the end for all the squares colored in-we have been
doing this for a while. Oh suddenly he's catching on
to the material. You might say that the game might
have been [...]41_22Mar200515:11:56-0800barbmazor@YAHOO.COM 33347 34 14_Re: motivators18_Mrs Moriah Chesler25_merilyn@CHESLER.ABSOL.COM31_Tue, 22 Mar 2005 12:45:11 -0500608_- >
>I've been thinking hard about
>this, and the only activities I could come up with that I've done
>*purely* for intrinsic reasons are write poems or stories that no one
>else ever reads. :)

Well, there's always a place in DevarimAtHome for contributions that no one
ever reads! ;) I keep DevarimAtHome open just for that reason -- a
repository for things that people may or may not eventually get to read.
But for people who has a passion to write w/o any external motivation, you
don't get paid for your writing, (although MorahMoriah.com would be happy to
reward [...]47_22Mar200512:45:11-0500merilyn@CHESLER.ABSOL.COM 33382 38 10_motivators17_Chana Silberstein16_cs32@CORNELL.EDU31_Tue, 22 Mar 2005 15:30:28 -0500608_us-ascii Putting on my developmental psychologist hat-- I think Yael summarizes it well:
extrinsic motivators ( punishments or rewards) do well if we want
quick results for clear, definable behaviors... and quickly get much
more complicated when we are trying to inculcate values.

The task you are teaching, Rivky, ( about the difference between 19
and 91) is quite clear, concrete, and definable. Once your son gets
it, he will have it for life. If it makes it easier to use a prize
for this one task that has been frustrating you both, no great harm
done. So long as there [...]38_22Mar200515:30:28-0500cs32@CORNELL.EDU 33421 116 30_Motivation: response to letter17_Chana Silberstein16_cs32@CORNELL.EDU31_Tue, 22 Mar 2005 15:33:37 -0500672_us-ascii Below, my response to a letter from a principal who thought that my
article on motivation was fine for the "ivory tower" but totally
impractical for real teachers in real classrooms:

We can all sympathize with Rabbi R.'s frustration with the critique
of rewards administered to manipulate behavior, and his disparagement
of the "ivory tower." Are there any parents alive who have not bribed
their children in a desperate moment, nor shouted angrily in
frustration, and been astounded at the forthcoming immediate
compliance? Yet when the time of crisis has passed, we may recognize
that if frequently repeated, such techniques [...]38_22Mar200515:33:37-0500cs32@CORNELL.EDU 33538 301 0_17_Chana Silberstein16_cs32@CORNELL.EDU31_Tue, 22 Mar 2005 15:37:37 -0500704_us-ascii For close to fifty years, the dominant paradigm in psychology
was behaviorism. The mind was considered a black box, unknowable, and
more significantly, irrelevant, to explaining human behavior. All
living creatures were assumed to operate by one simple rule. Some
external force, or stimulus, would act in away that affected the
creature, and the creature would accordingly respond. A pleasant
stimulus would reinforce whatever the creature was doing when it
occurred, while a negative stimulus would discourage the behavior
with which it was associated. In a nutshell, behaviorists believed
that the simple concept of reward and punishment was sufficient to
[...]38_22Mar200515:37:37-0500cs32@CORNELL.EDU 33840 99 27_external motivators and ADD10_Louise Fox20_louise@JOSHUAFOX.COM31_Tue, 22 Mar 2005 22:47:46 +0200623_ISO-8859-1 Rivky,

My first thought was that the "rules" are very often completely
different for a child with a learning disorder :-) But then, not always...

Our oldest has mild Asperger's Syndrome and very much likes to know what
to expect. So a reward/punishment system is very appealing to him as he
would know exactly what result to expect from a given action/behaviour.
However, as I already expressed, I don't believe external motivators are
the right way to educate a child, and I like the results much better
from things that he does from his own motivation. He rarely will take [...]42_22Mar200522:47:46+0200louise@JOSHUAFOX.COM 33940 115 35_Re: learning game [was earning $$$]11_Rivky Kahan22_rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM31_Tue, 22 Mar 2005 19:07:11 -0500578_- Thanks for the vote of approval. My decision to make these flashcards was
very impulsive. After dealing with his "impossible" behavior regarding this
matter, i decided thats it!- i got up and looked around for some cardboard
and a sizor and got to work cutting and writing numbers, and then i said
"okay sit down"...
Years ago i pulled my daughter out of school. She has some challenges as
well, but she is very different than my son. She was and is, very
cooperative. She will do anything i ask and tries her best. She is very
smart as well.
[...]44_22Mar200519:07:11-0500rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM 34056 125 16_Science Projects14_Mandy Oeschger23_sailorswife@KNOLOGY.NET31_Tue, 22 Mar 2005 20:10:24 -0600377_iso-8859-1 Rivky,

There is a series of books called Little Scientists. They have hands on projects from the reason leaves change colors to gravity. I learned a bit myself after reading through them! They can be found at www.books.mcgraw-hill.com . Check them out, it sounds like your son would really enjoy them and he would be learning at the same time.
~Mandy [...]45_22Mar200520:10:24-0600sailorswife@KNOLOGY.NET 34182 302 3_Re:15_Michelle Miller25_michelletamar@HOTMAIL.COM31_Wed, 23 Mar 2005 08:00:18 -0700774_- Thank you Chana. How eloquent.

Michelle

>From: Chana Silberstein
>Reply-To: Torah-Centered Homeschooling
>To: TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG
>Subject: [TORCH-D]
>Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 15:37:37 -0500
>
> For close to fifty years, the dominant paradigm in psychology was
>behaviorism. The mind was considered a black box, unknowable, and more
>significantly, irrelevant, to explaining human behavior. All living
>creatures were assumed to operate by one simple rule. Some external force,
>or stimulus, would act in away that affected the creature, and the creature
>would accordingly respond. A pleasant stimulus would reinforce whatever the
>creature was doing when it occurred, while a [...]47_23Mar200508:00:18-0700michelletamar@HOTMAIL.COM 34485 24 14_Re: Motivators18_Mrs Moriah Chesler25_merilyn@CHESLER.ABSOL.COM31_Wed, 23 Mar 2005 14:46:04 -0500644_- bs"d

I haven't been following this thread closely enough, but I wonder
has anyone mentioned using 'praise' and other 'self-esteem boosters' as
sources of motivators for kids to do anything be it to learn Torah or do
mitzvos? A nice word goes a long way.... works for grownups as well. ;)

Chag Sameach Purim!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by
Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org,
a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and
an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...]47_23Mar200514:46:04-0500merilyn@CHESLER.ABSOL.COM 34510 41 14_Re: Motivators17_Chana Silberstein16_cs32@CORNELL.EDU31_Wed, 23 Mar 2005 19:29:50 -0500663_us-ascii >bs"d

Praise is actually not all that different than other motivators. When
used as an expression of genuine pleasure on the part of the person
giving the praise, or as an objective assessment, it can be
encouraging.
When used to manipulate.. Halacha actually forbids in the strongest
terms unctuous flattery used for self-serving motives.
Chana

>I haven't been following this thread closely enough, but I wonder
>has anyone mentioned using 'praise' and other 'self-esteem boosters' as
>sources of motivators for kids to do anything be it to learn Torah or do
>mitzvos? A nice word goes a long way.... works [...]38_23Mar200519:29:50-0500cs32@CORNELL.EDU 34552 334 19_[QUAR]RE: [TORCH-D]11_Rivky Kahan22_rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM31_Wed, 23 Mar 2005 19:38:41 -0500625_- If i'm not mistaken this is a copy and paste of your article on the website
you sent us. I read part of it on the website, and still havent gotten
through the whole thing here either.
Just wanted to share some quick thoughts.
I understand what you're saying about the negative side of using behavioral
strategies, but i do want to point out strongly some of the positives about
behavioral strategies as well.
ABA-Aplied Behavior Analysis, is an educational/therapy used with children
with autism (and probably other developmental disabilities as well) It is
based on the theories of Operant [...]44_23Mar200519:38:41-0500rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM 34887 95 15_Re: earning $$$11_Rivky Kahan22_rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM31_Wed, 23 Mar 2005 20:02:03 -0500585_- Yael, i agree with you that rewards can be good in breaking a negative
pattern of behavior long enough to change it, and that they are good for
addressing specific defined behavior. I can see where it wouldnt do much for
instilling "values."
I guess values and behaviors are two different things. Yes, i know- when our
values are really in place, we will behave correctly. But how long does THAT
take??? A lifetime and then some, thats how long. You cannot teach values in
sit down lessons. Values come from the examples we set, the things we talk
about [...]44_23Mar200520:02:03-0500rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM 34983 50 14_Re: Motivators11_Rivky Kahan22_rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM31_Wed, 23 Mar 2005 20:06:06 -0500581_- >From: Mrs Moriah Chesler
>Reply-To: Torah-Centered Homeschooling
>To: TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG
>Subject: Re: [TORCH-D] Motivators
>Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 14:46:04 -0500
>
>bs"d
>
>I haven't been following this thread closely enough, but I wonder
>has anyone mentioned using 'praise' and other 'self-esteem boosters' as
>sources of motivators for kids to do anything be it to learn Torah or do
>mitzvos? A nice word goes a long way.... works for grownups as well. ;)
>
>Chag Sameach Purim! [...]44_23Mar200520:06:06-0500rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM 35034 37 14_Re: motivators12_Yael Resnick22_njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM31_Wed, 23 Mar 2005 20:47:23 -0500605_us-ascii >
>Regarding: do any of us do things without motivators-- when I was
>slogging through my thesis, I would often set "mini-goals" for
>myself: when you write five pages, you can take a break and get a
>cup of coffee.

Hi Chana,

I am learning so much from this conversation; thanks for sharing your
knowledge.

I'm thinking that since you set these goals and rewards for yourself
, what you wrote above seems to be more an example of internal
motivation. You found a way to motivate yourself in a way that worked
for you. So I'm wondering, would you [...]44_23Mar200520:47:23-0500njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM 35072 142 23_Re: behavior and values13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Wed, 23 Mar 2005 18:03:32 -0800353_us-ascii I don't know if behavior and values are always totally separate issues - I think there by necessity is a lot of overlap. After all, isn't behavior influenced by one's values? If there is any long term behavior we want our kids to engage in, shouldn't we be helping to inculcate an internal sense of value as to what the behavior is about? [...]44_23Mar200518:03:32-0800avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 35215 35 15_Re: earning $$$12_Yael Resnick22_njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM31_Wed, 23 Mar 2005 21:02:43 -0500601_us-ascii >Yael, i agree with you that rewards can be good in breaking a
>negative pattern of behavior long enough to change it, and that they
>are good for addressing specific defined behavior. I can see where
>it wouldnt do much for instilling "values."
>I guess values and behaviors are two different things. Yes, i know-
>when our values are really in place, we will behave correctly. But
>how long does THAT take??? A lifetime and then some, thats how long.
>You cannot teach values in sit down lessons. Values come from the
>examples we set, the things we talk about [...]44_23Mar200521:02:43-0500njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM 35251 87 15_Re: earning $$$13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Wed, 23 Mar 2005 18:26:17 -0800561_us-ascii You're right, Yael, there are not many things that I believe are totally black and white. :) Part of getting older has been the I see lots more gray (please, no jokes about the benefits of wearing shaitels!)

However, I wrote as I did after thinking through numerous examples in my life. I can't say that I didn't enjoy being praised, rewarded, or getting a salary. Of course I did. There were things I did for the purpose of getting the goods (especially when I was younger and in school), and there were things I did because I cared about [...]44_23Mar200518:26:17-0800avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 35339 188 23_Re: behavior and values11_Rivky Kahan22_rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM31_Wed, 23 Mar 2005 21:41:53 -0500525_- Avivah, of course behaviors and values are not seperate issues, and that is
not what i was trying to say. What i was saying is that it is a life long
process to internalize the right values to the point that we always behave
the right way. For example, i have a bad habbit of snapping at members of my
family from time to time. I do this because i might be nervious or stressed
at the time, too many people talking to me at once, or whatever. Are these
my values??? Do you think i believe in being a [...]44_23Mar200521:41:53-0500rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM 35528 137 14_Re: motivators17_Chana Silberstein16_cs32@CORNELL.EDU31_Wed, 23 Mar 2005 21:53:44 -0500604_us-ascii >>Regarding: do any of us do things without motivators-- when I was
>>slogging through my thesis, I would often set "mini-goals" for
>>myself: when you write five pages, you can take a break and get a
>>cup of coffee.
>
>Hi Chana,
>
>I am learning so much from this conversation; thanks for sharing
>your knowledge.
>
>I'm thinking that since you set these goals and rewards for yourself
>, what you wrote above seems to be more an example of internal
>motivation. You found a way to motivate yourself in a way that
>worked for you. So I'm wondering, [...]38_23Mar200521:53:44-0500cs32@CORNELL.EDU 35666 72 23_Re: behavior and values14_Bill Bernstein27_billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET31_Wed, 23 Mar 2005 20:58:14 -0600600_ISO-8859-1 I've been half-reading this thread but this one caught my eye. I'm not
sure how accurate Rebbetzin Heller's observations are. Yes, sure, if
things are internal first and then blossom forth to the outside that is
ideal. But it doesnt always work that way.
I remember a conversation I had once with someone who quoted some
authority (this was over 20 years ago--my memory is good but not that
good) who said, "if you want to be a tzaddik then you have to start
acting like one. Do the things tzaddikim do."
It is an Aristotelian notion: choice reveals character [...]49_23Mar200520:58:14-0600billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET 35739 120 15_Re: earning $$$17_Chana Silberstein16_cs32@CORNELL.EDU31_Wed, 23 Mar 2005 21:58:15 -0500601_us-ascii >Yael, i agree with you that rewards can be good in breaking a
>negative pattern of behavior long enough to change it, and that they
>are good for addressing specific defined behavior. I can see where
>it wouldnt do much for instilling "values."
>I guess values and behaviors are two different things. Yes, i know-
>when our values are really in place, we will behave correctly. But
>how long does THAT take??? A lifetime and then some, thats how long.
>You cannot teach values in sit down lessons. Values come from the
>examples we set, the things we talk about [...]38_23Mar200521:58:15-0500cs32@CORNELL.EDU 35860 65 14_Re: Motivators17_Chana Silberstein16_cs32@CORNELL.EDU31_Wed, 23 Mar 2005 22:04:18 -0500430_iso-8859-1 >
>Oh lets face it. Everybody works for SOMETHING!!!!!! Praise is
>"something" and doesnt cost money. But we all work for something.
>That something could be Olam Haba, but its something. How many
>people do you know that will work for nothing but the love of G-D???
>I think you raise a good point. Lets put this into perspective that
>all of us on this planet, are working for something. Rivky [...]38_23Mar200522:04:18-0500cs32@CORNELL.EDU 35926 90 15_teaching tznius13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Wed, 23 Mar 2005 20:00:51 -0800544_us-ascii I think her observations are unerringly accurate, and if you don't think so, that is much more a reflection of how quickly and shallowly I gave over her points. I am sure that you agree with her, Bill. She talks about the same ideas that R' Wolbe is mentioning. (By the way, I really enjoy R' Wolbe's insights, and a couple of years ago, wrote on this list about his explanations of binyan (binyan) and zeriyah (planting) since I thought they were so insightful. He is even one of the three rebbeim whose picture is on our wall!) [...]44_23Mar200520:00:51-0800avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 36017 31 15_Re: earning $$$12_Yael Resnick22_njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM31_Wed, 23 Mar 2005 22:30:09 -0500489_us-ascii >
>Was that any more clear or am I just making the muddied waters more murky? :)

Very clear! And I can relate to everything you wrote 100%.
Absolutely, the main issue isn't whether or not there are external
sources of motivation. The question is whether the internal
motivation is primary, and also what role the external factors play
(as you and Chana both said, do they manipulate behavior or just
provide encouragement, "fringe benefits," etc.?). [...]44_23Mar200522:30:09-0500njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM 36049 96 14_Re: motivators12_Yael Resnick22_njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM31_Wed, 23 Mar 2005 22:49:10 -0500538_us-ascii Makes sense to me!

And bringing this whole discussion back to my original post about the
job jar... To me, it's a great system because it is NOT manipulative.
It's passive; it just sits there on the bulletin board until a kid or
two get in the mood to pick out a piece of paper. They are internally
motivated. They feel the satisfaction of being helpful and competent.
They appreciate the extra perks of being paid a few coins and getting
my thank you note. And they have fun. What could be bad? :) [...]44_23Mar200522:49:10-0500njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM 36146 46 33_my 2 cents on external motivation8_S Sloman18_ssloman@NETLAB.COM31_Thu, 24 Mar 2005 06:15:38 -0500733_us-ascii Sometimes people cannot be internally motivated until they are
"manipulated" into something by external systems. Then, once they
change their behavior, they experience the inherent rewards that lead to
actual motivation.

I came to that realization after seeing the use of behavior modification
with severely impaired autistic and mentally retarded people, whose
disruptive behavior prevented them from participating in social
activities, going out with family members, etc. Once they had learned
to behave appropriately through the application of reward and
punishment, their lives were so much fuller and richer. At that point,
the external system was no longer needed--the behaviors [...]40_24Mar200506:15:38-0500ssloman@NETLAB.COM 36193 47 11_tznius song6_Zohari20_najova@EARTHLINK.NET31_Wed, 23 Mar 2005 21:36:57 -0700358_US-ASCII Speaking as someone with several young children (and only one little girl),
I try to inject the concept of tzniut into all kinds of situations. Being
modest does not apply only to the way we dress; nor does it apply only to
women and girls. It is sad that such an amazing concept has been reduced to
such an externalized existence. [...]42_23Mar200521:36:57-0700najova@EARTHLINK.NET 36241 70 37_Re: my 2 cents on external motivation11_Rivky Kahan22_rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM31_Thu, 24 Mar 2005 08:10:59 -0500450_- Thank you for this post. This helps to put things into perspective. I didnt
know you are a behavioral therapist. Then i guess you are familiar with all
the work and studies done with autistic children and behavior mod. For my
son, it didnt seem to help with behaviors, but helped him gain certain
skills. I wasnt aware that if they are already motivated from within, that
adding praise would cause a decrease in behavior. Rivky [...]44_24Mar200508:10:59-0500rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM 36312 120 23_Re: behavior and values17_Chana Silberstein16_cs32@CORNELL.EDU31_Thu, 24 Mar 2005 08:33:19 -0500446_us-ascii Bill, I don't think Rebbetzin Heller's point is that "action" doesn't matter.

You mention a principle that is taught by theRambam in Hilchot De'ot
and Shemonah Perakim: a powerful way of altering behavior is to
begin acting as one "wants to be"-- sometimes going to the opposite
extreme.
The point is not that action does not matter, but that there is an
internal life that has to be taken account of as well. [...]38_24Mar200508:33:19-0500cs32@CORNELL.EDU 36433 71 14_Re: Motivators11_Rivky Kahan22_rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM31_Thu, 24 Mar 2005 08:38:40 -0500608_- >From: Chana Silberstein
>Reply-To: Torah-Centered Homeschooling
>To: TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG
>Subject: Re: [TORCH-D] Motivators
>Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 19:29:50 -0500
>
>>bs"d
>
>Praise is actually not all that different than other motivators. When used
>as an expression of genuine pleasure on the part of the person giving the
>praise, or as an objective assessment, it can be encouraging.
>When used to manipulate.. Halacha actually forbids in the strongest terms
>unctuous flattery used for self-serving motives.
>Chana [...]44_24Mar200508:38:40-0500rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM 36505 55 45_planning to be a bad manipulative mommy today11_Rivky Kahan22_rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM31_Thu, 24 Mar 2005 09:03:37 -0500565_- Before i get off this computer for now, just wanted to tell everyone that i
have every intention of being manipulative with my son today. Why???
Because he has this horrible mishigas that he insists on fasting every time
theres a fast day. Nothing we tell him will change his conviction. We told
him that it is not a mitzvah for him to fast-that Hashem doesnt want
children to fast. We told him this and we told him that but nothing works.
He refuses to eat. So last fast, we "tricked' him. He's the only one here
under bar/bat mitzvah. [...]44_24Mar200509:03:37-0500rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM 36561 26 37_Re: my 2 cents on external motivation8_S Sloman18_ssloman@NETLAB.COM31_Thu, 24 Mar 2005 09:36:01 -0500623_us-ascii >I wasnt aware that if they are already motivated from within,
>that adding praise would cause a decrease in behavior.

I'm not saying that's across the board, always 100% the case. It's more
complicated than that. There are a variety of factors.

Shoshana Sloman
Torch-d listowner

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The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by
Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org,
a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and
an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...]40_24Mar200509:36:01-0500ssloman@NETLAB.COM 36588 114 21_Re: letting kids fast13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Thu, 24 Mar 2005 07:08:04 -0800428_us-ascii What is so bad about letting him fast and let him feel the natural consequences? Maybe he will get hungry and decide to eat something; you can just stay quiet and not rub it in. Maybe he will fast the entire day and be fine. It is very unlikely that he is going to black out - but just for theoretical purposes, let's say that he does. So then you can insist he drink something because he isn't yet ready to fast. [...]44_24Mar200507:08:04-0800avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 36703 77 23_Re: behavior and values13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Thu, 24 Mar 2005 07:19:18 -0800454_us-ascii This is exactly how I felt when our school introduced uniforms (we were seniors). I loved the look, I thought they were very nice (the student body chose them, and our uniform was voted the nicest at the BY convention), and I felt more connected to the school and what it represented. I did feel more tzanua and started dressing differently out of school also. Very different from previous experiences with the enforcement of a dress code. [...]44_24Mar200507:19:18-0800avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 36781 62 15_Re: tznius song17_Chana Silberstein16_cs32@CORNELL.EDU31_Thu, 24 Mar 2005 10:16:39 -0500578_us-ascii Love your song... Just wanted to add that tznius is not a concept
that applies only to girls.. though it may apply differently to boys
or girls. Lots of daily opportunities ( bath time, dressing time,
etc.) to point out to boys as well that they should be acting with
tznius.

>Speaking as someone with several young children (and only one little girl),
>I try to inject the concept of tzniut into all kinds of situations. Being
>modest does not apply only to the way we dress; nor does it apply only to
>women and girls. It is sad that [...]38_24Mar200510:16:39-0500cs32@CORNELL.EDU 36844 130 14_Re: Motivators17_Chana Silberstein16_cs32@CORNELL.EDU31_Thu, 24 Mar 2005 10:36:44 -0500597_iso-8859-1 Rivky, as parents, we all face challenges of various kinds. Raising
an autistic child is one kind of challenge, raising a stubborn child
is another, raising a hyperactive child is a third. We are always
going to have to use a range of strategies to figure out what is most
effective for a particular child-- and even for a particular child,
different things will work at different times. I have no intention of
criticizing parents for using different techniques, approaches, or
strategies in trying to raise their children. This is what parenting
is about. [...]38_24Mar200510:36:44-0500cs32@CORNELL.EDU 36975 243 23_Re: behavior and values17_Chana Silberstein16_cs32@CORNELL.EDU31_Thu, 24 Mar 2005 11:06:50 -0500483_us-ascii Precisely, Avivah. You bought in to the concept ( and the rules that
went with it)-- and found it had a positive effect. Other kids did
not buy in... so the VERY SAME BEHAVIORAL RULE was counterproductive.
In a situation like that, talking to the kids some more, trying to
get them to buy in, to see how the rule created some advantages for
them, might be more useful than imposing stricter and stricter
punishments for tinier and tinier infractions. [...]38_24Mar200511:06:50-0500cs32@CORNELL.EDU 37219 22 5_Purim17_Chana Silberstein16_cs32@CORNELL.EDU31_Thu, 24 Mar 2005 11:09:38 -0500590_us-ascii All this talk about motivation.. where's all the talk about Purim?
What simple and easy costumes are you doing?
What practical, easy, healthy shalach manot ideas do you have?

Or is everyone going all out, even with Purim being on a Friday and all?
Chana

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The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by
Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org,
a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and
an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...]38_24Mar200511:09:38-0500cs32@CORNELL.EDU 37242 131 19_Re: teaching tznius15_Michelle Miller25_michelletamar@HOTMAIL.COM31_Thu, 24 Mar 2005 09:15:36 -0700489_- Two things really jumped out at me when I read this thread. First, how the
"tznius police" at schools seems so Islamic like (in attitude only, of
course). Also, I plan to teach my daughter (7) as she matures, what
non-tznius dress causes boys/men to think about her, and how she wants to be
perceived by the world. One only has to go to the grocery store to see the
most sleazy and depraved looing women (and men). It is easier inculcating
values at home I think. [...]47_24Mar200509:15:36-0700michelletamar@HOTMAIL.COM 37374 76 5_Purim13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Thu, 24 Mar 2005 08:58:19 -0800559_us-ascii In our house, Purim being on Friday is no excuse for not enjoying ourselves fully! While I have been on the computer, my kids have been gearing up for Purim! My son baked hamantaschen this morning, the girls baked theirs yesterday, lists of friends to give to were assembled earlier in the week (I request them in advance to map out an efficient driving route), and one daughter searched out all our copies of kiddie megillahs (ie, illustrated) from various places in the house. Meanwhile, the younger kids are dancing around in their costumes. [...]44_24Mar200508:58:19-0800avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 37451 48 24_Olam Haba as a motivator17_Chana Silberstein16_cs32@CORNELL.EDU31_Thu, 24 Mar 2005 11:45:09 -0500394_us-ascii when I grew up, there was a well known Yiddish song that began:

Olam Haba is a gutte zach
Lernen Torah is a besser zach

( Olam Haba is a good thing,
Learning Torah is a better thing).

But we don't need to think back to the songs of our childhood to know
that we can do mitzvos because of love of Hashem, not just in order
to earn a future reward. [...]38_24Mar200511:45:09-0500cs32@CORNELL.EDU 37500 148 4_song13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Thu, 24 Mar 2005 09:00:51 -0800358_us-ascii Here's the version I heard growing up:

Lernen Torah is a gutte zach
Lernen Tanya is a besser zach

As an adult I wonder who adapted that and if it was intended tongue in cheek.

Avivah

when I grew up, there was a well known Yiddish song that began:

Olam Haba is a gutte zach
Lernen Torah is a besser zach [...]44_24Mar200509:00:51-0800avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 37649 146 14_Re: Motivators11_Rivky Kahan22_rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM31_Thu, 24 Mar 2005 12:37:16 -0500427_- Thank you for explaining all that. I think i have a better picture of what
you mean now. I try to be honest with my children so that they will trust
that when i do praise them they'll trust that its honest. I dont always
pretend to like every story they write, or every picture they draw. I wont
say i hate the picture, but i might say "Well, this is okay,but i really
liked your other one better." Rivky [...]44_24Mar200512:37:16-0500rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM 37796 100 19_Re: teaching tznius14_Bill Bernstein27_billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET31_Thu, 24 Mar 2005 11:43:42 -0600591_ISO-8859-1 OK, I think I see what the difference is. In the first case I was
speaking about someone who wants to change his attitudes. If he changes
his behavior first then the attitudes will follow. In the second we are
talking about imposing the values from above. That is difficult to
impossible. You can influence, but influence is not the same as dictate.
In the examples of the girls' schools the parallels to Saudi Arabia and
the Taliban are too tempting to ignore. Obviously people will conform
to that for the most part while they are forced but take away [...]49_24Mar200511:43:42-0600billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET 37897 34 8_Re: song17_Chana Silberstein16_cs32@CORNELL.EDU31_Thu, 24 Mar 2005 12:54:03 -0500375_us-ascii >Here's the version I heard growing up:
>
>Lernen Torah is a gutte zach
>Lernen Tanya is a besser zach
>
>As an adult I wonder who adapted that and if it was intended tongue in cheek.
>
>Avivah

I've never heard that one before.

I guess we traveled in different circles :-)
And I grew up in Williamsburg and Crown Heights!! [...]38_24Mar200512:54:03-0500cs32@CORNELL.EDU 37932 37 14_Re: Motivators18_Mrs Moriah Chesler25_merilyn@CHESLER.ABSOL.COM31_Thu, 24 Mar 2005 12:55:23 -0500384_- If it's appropriate for this group, please describe what is meant by
'manipulating' the child through praise. Even if the parent is not
genuinely with it, but pretends to be, so that the child gets a self-boost
if the child thinks he/she has accomplished something good for himself, and
will benefit from the 'praise', what is it that is forbidden by Halacha here? [...]47_24Mar200512:55:23-0500merilyn@CHESLER.ABSOL.COM 37970 97 28_Re: Olam Haba as a motivator11_Rivky Kahan22_rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM31_Thu, 24 Mar 2005 12:57:56 -0500566_- I guess i'm going to say something here at the risk of everybody stoning me.
I think doing mitzvose not because of consideration of reward and
punnishment, but only because we love Hashem, is a madreiga-spiritual
level-that very few in this generation are on. I dont want to say that most
people wouldnt do ANY mitvose if there were no consequences good or bad in
the next world, but i dont think our level of observance would be anywhere
near the same.
I have asked myself from time to time, how frum i would be if i didnt
believe in [...]44_24Mar200512:57:56-0500rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM 38068 45 14_Re: Motivators18_Mrs Moriah Chesler25_merilyn@CHESLER.ABSOL.COM31_Thu, 24 Mar 2005 13:11:26 -0500359_- Praise is something that's *free* and doesn't cost anything. The same thing
with prayer. Everything good that comes out of our mouth accomplishes a lot
of good. Let's keep on doing it.

For those of you who will be attending a Chofetz Chaim event in your
community, don't miss Rabbi Rietti's lecture on "Finding your Peaceful
Heart". [...]47_24Mar200513:11:26-0500merilyn@CHESLER.ABSOL.COM 38114 59 49_Re: planning to be a bad manipulative mommy today15_Alison Jacobson23_alisonziskind@YAHOO.COM31_Thu, 24 Mar 2005 10:15:31 -0800398_us-ascii Have you had a Rav speak to him personally? Perhaps
hearing a big voice of authority telling him that it's
a mitzvah to eat will help .... and then you can use
the emunas chachamim trump card.

Someday, you'll speak of your son, the big Rosh
Yeshiva, and what a tzaddik he was even as a child.
We'll all read about him. :) Until then, you get to
deal with it. [...]45_24Mar200510:15:31-0800alisonziskind@YAHOO.COM 38174 38 21_Re: behavior & values18_Mrs Moriah Chesler25_merilyn@CHESLER.ABSOL.COM31_Thu, 24 Mar 2005 13:22:38 -0500569_- I agree completely. That's why we have our Sages who mention the 'reward'
system, for little kids, mostly. Hopefully they won't need it by the time
they're older but under B. Mitvah. Not all kids require rewards, I'm sure there are those born
like a tzaddik, but those are hard to come by these days...., but
regardless, I've to look at them as little tzadikim and tzedekos, and praise
them for all the good middos they do exhibit from time to time, so that they
will savour the positive moments in their lives and want to live up to those
[...]47_24Mar200513:22:38-0500merilyn@CHESLER.ABSOL.COM 38213 55 9_Re: Purim15_Alison Jacobson23_alisonziskind@YAHOO.COM31_Thu, 24 Mar 2005 10:23:47 -0800381_us-ascii Chana,

I had that question for my husband. Do we make a big
seuda erev Shabbos? Now, since we're in the middle of
nowhere, it's not as big a deal as if we were in a
community, but it was still a question.

I'm sending some baked goods and fruit, I think.
Maybe a little bottle of grape juice.
Hamantaschen will be baked this morning, I"H. [...]45_24Mar200510:23:47-0800alisonziskind@YAHOO.COM 38269 59 23_Re: behavior and values15_Alison Jacobson23_alisonziskind@YAHOO.COM31_Thu, 24 Mar 2005 10:27:47 -0800452_us-ascii My son attended a uniform cheder (with the exception
of the 2-4 yr olds, who didn't wear one), and the Bais
Yaakov also had uniforms. I loved seeing the kids in
their uniforms ... it was unifying and helped to guard
tznius.

I know some Chabad families that make their kids wear
a uniform as homeschoolers during school/learning
hours in order to help inculcate that idea of
formality and tznius when learning. [...]45_24Mar200510:27:47-0800alisonziskind@YAHOO.COM 38329 58 9_Re: Purim12_Yael Resnick22_njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM31_Thu, 24 Mar 2005 13:40:24 -0500566_us-ascii Great question! Definitely keeping it simple with costumes!

My 4-year-old has been insisting she wanted to be a horse since at
least a month ago. When she was still talking about it this week, I
got yarn and felt to make a simple mane, tail, saddle, etc. Yesterday
I actually made the mane and tail (just a puffy bunch of yarn looped
around and tied at the end), Today she decided she just wants to be
"normal" -- no costume. Maybe she'll end up doing what my 10-year-old
said she's doing, which is to be a "horse dressed as a [...]44_24Mar200513:40:24-0500njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM 38388 65 15_Re: tznius song18_Benjamin H Dickman19_bdickman@LUCENT.COM31_Thu, 24 Mar 2005 14:00:51 -0500581_us-ascii bs'd

The tune 'If you're happy and you know it clap your hands'
seems to fit the meter.
:-)

Benzion Dickman

On 3/23/2005 11:36 PM, Zohari wrote:
> Speaking as someone with several young children (and only one little girl),
> I try to inject the concept of tzniut into all kinds of situations. Being
> modest does not apply only to the way we dress; nor does it apply only to
> women and girls. It is sad that such an amazing concept has been reduced to
> such an externalized existence.
>
> Every morning when we daven [...]41_24Mar200514:00:51-0500bdickman@LUCENT.COM 38454 34 9_Re: Purim12_Rena Weisman19_renaweisman@COX.NET31_Thu, 24 Mar 2005 12:47:15 -0700521_us-ascii >.... doing cooking for Shabbos (we will be having guests) and the Purim
>seudah (we're sharing the cooking for 36 people with a couple of friends)
>right after I get off the computer :), and my kids are cleaning the house
>now. As my 10 yod just told me, it's better to clean it now and have it
>get a little messy and reclean it than have a huge mess to deal with right
>before Shabbos. I always feel that a little preparation in advance allows
>for a lot more relaxation later on.
> [...]41_24Mar200512:47:15-0700renaweisman@COX.NET 38489 52 14_Re: Motivators13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Thu, 24 Mar 2005 12:58:26 -0800436_us-ascii How can someone get a true boost in their feeing of value if you are giving them compliments that you don't even believe? Kids have a good sense of when someone is being sincere, and it is hard for me to believe that hearing something that someone clearly doesn't mean would make anyone feel better. I would at the very least disregard it and probably consider future comments from that person as valueless and insincere. [...]44_24Mar200512:58:26-0800avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 38542 84 22_Re: bubble gum costume13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Thu, 24 Mar 2005 13:05:14 -0800364_us-ascii Ellen, isn't this Batsheva's idea of the bubble gum costume? I didn't see the most recent issue of Yaldah (though I plan to buy it), but Batsheva mentioned to Tehila in an email that this is her costume this year, and that she submitted the idea to Yaldah. I hope you mention to her that you already have heard of at least one person using her idea! [...]44_24Mar200513:05:14-0800avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 38627 63 11_Sound books11_Rivky Kahan22_rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM31_Thu, 24 Mar 2005 15:59:54 -0500530_- Just wanted to share a teaching strategy that i have found to be sucessful.
I call it "sound books." It is meant to improve reading skills, and i found
it to have very positive results when i took my daughter out of school after
first grade, and now i see how it's helping my son. Its actually very
simple.
I take some simple unlined paper-like paper you would use in your printer. I
take about 2 sheets and put it together and fold it in half, so it opens
like a book. On the cover of the book, I put [...]44_24Mar200515:59:54-0500rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM 38691 83 9_Re: Purim13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Thu, 24 Mar 2005 13:13:13 -0800485_us-ascii Thanks for the feedback, Rena W!

Now my feedback for the list - I left my computer for just two or three hours, made over fifty pieces of chicken, two pans of potato kugel, two pans of carrot kugel, two big batches of challah dough, boiled noodles for the spinach noodle kugels, and popped numerous pots of popcorn for my kiddies' shalach manos. While I am busy working to get ready, all of you are online - I came back to fourteen messages waiting for approval!! [...]44_24Mar200513:13:13-0800avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 38775 72 8_Re: song13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Thu, 24 Mar 2005 13:16:55 -0800559_us-ascii My parents became frum through Chabad over thirty years ago, and I used to hear the song at home. I think it was probably a Lubavitch baal teshuva kind of joke amongst themselves (ie, their circle of friends), not meant maliciously in any way, just in good fun.

Avivah

Chana Silberstein wrote:
>Here's the version I heard growing up:
>
>Lernen Torah is a gutte zach
>Lernen Tanya is a besser zach
>
>As an adult I wonder who adapted that and if it was intended tongue in cheek.
>
>Avivah [...]44_24Mar200513:16:55-0800avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 38848 79 9_Re: Purim14_Bill Bernstein27_billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET31_Thu, 24 Mar 2005 15:15:04 -0600339_ISO-8859-1 <nowhere, it's not as big a deal as if we were in acommunity, but it was
still a question.>>

According to the Ezras Torah Luach (the big one) the seuda is eaten
ideally before chatzos (mid-day) in order to have room for shabbos meals. [...]49_24Mar200515:15:04-0600billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET 38928 118 49_Re: planning to be a bad manipulative mommy today11_Rivky Kahan22_rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM31_Thu, 24 Mar 2005 16:39:00 -0500526_- Long sigh... Here's what happened. He figured out for himself that it was a
fast day today. He just knew it was the day before Purim. I didnt bother him
til about 11am, because if he would have asked permission to fast for part
of the day, i might have allowed him to go that long. I walked into his
room, and told him if he doesnt start eating now, i would not let him go
outside tomorrow. He said he didnt care because Purim wasnt going to be much
fun on Friday. I told him he wasnt getting Shalach [...]44_24Mar200516:39:00-0500rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM 39047 62 14_Re: Motivators11_Rivky Kahan22_rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM31_Thu, 24 Mar 2005 16:52:31 -0500705_- Moriah, i agree with Avivah-children are very sensitive, and they can smell
when we're not being sincere. Our praise loses value when we dont really
mean what we're saying and this is not helpful to our children. Rivky

>From: Mrs Moriah Chesler
>Reply-To: Torah-Centered Homeschooling
>To: TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG
>Subject: Re: [TORCH-D] Motivators
>Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 12:55:23 -0500
>
>If it's appropriate for this group, please describe what is meant by
>'manipulating' the child through praise. Even if the parent is not
>genuinely with it, but pretends to be, so that the child gets a self-boost
>if the [...]44_24Mar200516:52:31-0500rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM 39110 24 26_please resend science link11_Rivky Kahan22_rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM31_Thu, 24 Mar 2005 17:00:13 -0500714_- Someone sent a link to a site that had some science experiments to do at
home. Whoever you are, thank you. I cant find your post anymore. :-(
Could you please resend. Thank you

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The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by
Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org,
a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and
an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...]44_24Mar200517:00:13-0500rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM 39135 109 9_Re: Purim12_Rena Weisman19_renaweisman@COX.NET31_Thu, 24 Mar 2005 15:08:13 -07000_41_24Mar200515:08:13-0700renaweisman@COX.NET 39245 39 15_Re: tznius song6_Zohari20_najova@EARTHLINK.NET31_Thu, 24 Mar 2005 14:57:42 -0700343_US-ASCII on 3/24/05 12:00 PM, Benjamin H Dickman at bdickman@LUCENT.COM wrote:

> bs'd
>
> The tune 'If you're happy and you know it clap your hands'
> seems to fit the meter.
> :-)
>
> Benzion Dickman

I love that you came up with that, and I do think it works well!

The tune I use is the following: [...]42_24Mar200514:57:42-0700najova@EARTHLINK.NET 39285 61 9_Re: Purim12_Yael Resnick22_njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM31_Thu, 24 Mar 2005 17:17:02 -0500405_us-ascii >I've noticed something very interesting about erev yomim tovim - the
>list volume usually gets high. I was wondering why this is - are we
>avoiding the work we need to do by going online, trying to suppress
>our panic at all that needs to be done by connecting with others, or
>just all so organized that everything is done way ahead of time and
>we have nothing else to do? [...]44_24Mar200517:17:02-0500njpmail@MINDSPRING.COM 39347 153 9_Re: Purim13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Thu, 24 Mar 2005 22:30:59 -0800537_us-ascii Yep, I can be pretty efficient, but it depends on a couple of things: being focused on what I want to accomplish, and not being continuously interrupted, which can really increase the time things take exponentially. My toddler was sleeping, and I set the other five kids up with all their shalach manos supplies so they were busy assembling all of their shalach manos for friends, making labels, etc. So it probably wasn't as impressive as it would have been had I been entertaining a toddler and nursing a sick infant. :) [...]44_24Mar200522:30:59-0800avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 39501 194 49_Re: planning to be a bad manipulative mommy today13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Thu, 24 Mar 2005 23:03:40 -0800515_us-ascii Oy, Rivky...when I saw your message this morning about your plans, I immediately responded with the hope you would see it early in the day and rethink your strategy. I am not saying I told you so, totally not at all. But this is exactly what my concern about what I called powerful behavior was - you pushed him, and he had to push back. It became an ego issue for you both and it was painful for either of you to back down. This dynamic is a predictable one - so much so that I could have mapped out [...]44_24Mar200523:03:40-0800avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 39696 87 14_Re: Motivators12_Caryn Lipson24_caryn_lipson@HOTMAIL.COM31_Fri, 25 Mar 2005 07:11:44 -0500443_iso-8859-1 Sometimes we can let them know they're doing a good job and we're proud of
them by showing interest and asking specific questions about what they are
doing. This probably gets around the direct praise issue when kids are
self-motivated and actively engaged in something and lets them know they're
doing well without even saying so. Great self-esteem booster and it's also
good for the parent-child relationship. [...]46_25Mar200507:11:44-0500caryn_lipson@HOTMAIL.COM 39784 68 14_[QUAR]tehillim14_Wendy and Jess15_viking@STIS.NET31_Fri, 25 Mar 2005 02:48:33 -0500368_iso-8859-1 Please say tehillim for my husband, Jess, (Nachum Aharon ben Moshe Yosef), who was admitted this evening for severe chest pain, which seems to be caused by a blood clot in his lung following surgery.

Tizku l'mitzvos!

Wendy in Miami
Mom to Esti (9), Moshe Yosef (7), Akiva (5), Rachmy (2) and Yocheved Miriam (born at home on 12/4/04!) [...]37_25Mar200502:48:33-0500viking@STIS.NET 39853 52 18_Re: [QUAR]tehillim15_Michelle Miller25_michelletamar@HOTMAIL.COM31_Fri, 25 Mar 2005 07:54:39 -0700725_- Wendy,

May Hashem grant Jess a complete and speedy recovery. He (and your family)
are in our tefillos. Please keep us posted on his progress.

Blessings,
Michelle

>From: Wendy and Jess
>Reply-To: Torah-Centered Homeschooling
>To: TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG
>Subject: [TORCH-D] [QUAR]tehillim
>Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 02:48:33 -0500
>
>Please say tehillim for my husband, Jess, (Nachum Aharon ben Moshe Yosef),
>who was admitted this evening for severe chest pain, which seems to be
>caused by a blood clot in his lung following surgery.
>
>Tizku l'mitzvos!
>
>Wendy in Miami
>Mom to Esti (9), Moshe Yosef (7), Akiva (5), [...]47_25Mar200507:54:39-0700michelletamar@HOTMAIL.COM 39906 306 9_Re: Purim8_S Sloman18_ssloman@NETLAB.COM31_Sun, 27 Mar 2005 09:07:59 -0500449_us-ascii >>I left my computer for just two or three hours, made over fifty pieces
of chicken, two pans of potato kugel,
>>two pans of carrot kugel, two big batches of challah dough, boiled
noodles for the spinach noodle kugels,
>>and popped numerous pots of popcorn for my kiddies' shalach manos.
>
> Wow! And I thought I was fast and efficient in the kitchen!! I don't
think I've ever done that much in that span of time. [...]40_27Mar200509:07:59-0500ssloman@NETLAB.COM 40213 75 14_Re: Motivators18_Mrs Moriah Chesler25_merilyn@CHESLER.ABSOL.COM31_Sat, 26 Mar 2005 22:45:58 -0500563_- Thanks for showing an interest in my inquiry...

I think a parent has to be a good actor, and pretending to be 'angry' or
'happy' or other adjectives is a good thing.

There are many practical situations that being in control of one's inner
emotions while emoting another, eg.
1) to be calm (or to act calm) when the natural response is to panic
2) to be in control (or to act in control) when the natural inclination
is to be angry.
3) to be praising (or to act that way) when the natural response is to be
critical
4) [...]47_26Mar200522:45:58-0500merilyn@CHESLER.ABSOL.COM 40289 98 6_tznius0_17_RENALEVIN@AOL.COM29_Sun, 27 Mar 2005 13:10:52 EST411_US-ASCII In a message dated 3/25/05 1:55:10 AM Eastern Standard Time,
LISTSERV@SHAMASH.ORG writes:

>
> > Avivah - who since this summer wears sneakers even though they have
> > ruined her tznius look - (consider me a rule breaker :))
> >
>

Avivah: Did I not read the rule book? tennis shoes are not tznius? ooh
boy, add me to the list of rule breakers! I am in BIG trouble. [...]37_27Mar200513:10:52ESTRENALEVIN@AOL.COM 40388 107 58_Re: TORCH-D Digest - 24 Mar 2005 to 25 Mar 2005 (#2005-74)0_17_RENALEVIN@AOL.COM29_Sun, 27 Mar 2005 13:23:07 EST568_US-ASCII In a message dated 3/25/05 1:55:10 AM Eastern Standard Time,
LISTSERV@SHAMASH.ORG writes:

> or just all so organized that everything is done way ahead of time and we
> have nothing else to do?
>
>

yeah, right! I am busy catching up on posts which were written earlier in
the week. We had a very busy purim, and we were organized way in advance. don't
know why it always comes down to the last minute and I have 2 very capable and
very helpful teens B"H. even so, we did a lot last minute. Many trips to
goodwill for [...]37_27Mar200513:23:07ESTRENALEVIN@AOL.COM 40496 29 15_Pesach Resource12_Rena Weisman19_renaweisman@COX.NET31_Sun, 27 Mar 2005 13:08:39 -0700437_us-ascii I was looking for some fun ideas to do with my 2 year old in order to get
her ready for Pesach. I have some ideas (matza cover, afikomen cover etc)
but I was doing research on the Internet and found some great stuff at
www.echinuch.org One thing I really liked was an actual printable hagadda
(42 pages) that you can put together with your child. Its a little advanced
for a 2 year old but its really great. [...]41_27Mar200513:08:39-0700renaweisman@COX.NET 40526 66 19_Re: Pesach Resource13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Sun, 27 Mar 2005 12:43:15 -0800488_us-ascii I printed out a hagada for a couple of my younger kids (ages 5 and 3) last year from e-chinuch; it might have been about 13 - 15 pages long. I laminated the front and back, and they glued, painted, colored, added glitter and tissue paper for the appropriate scenes. They felt good to have something at the seder, and I felt like a super mom because I really am not a craft person and generally direct virtually no effort in that direction, short of purchasing the supplies. [...]44_27Mar200512:43:15-0800avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 40593 42 18_Re: [QUAR]tehillim14_Wendy and Jess15_viking@STIS.NET31_Sun, 27 Mar 2005 17:20:24 -0500347_iso-8859-1 Bli ayin hara, Jess seems to be doing well. He's still in the hosoital, and
is on anti-coagulants. We hope to have him home with us tomorrow
evening,iy"H. Thanks for your tefillos! BTW, it's Nachum Aharon ben Sorah
Immeinu...for some reason, I was a little more addleheaded than usual when I
posted the other night. ;) [...]37_27Mar200517:20:24-0500viking@STIS.NET 40636 64 18_Re: [QUAR]tehillim11_Rivky Kahan22_rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM31_Sun, 27 Mar 2005 22:14:20 -0500666_- Oh i'm glad. I just got on the computer to read emails, since Thursday, and
saw that your husband needed us to say Tehilim. I was just going to ask how
he's doing, and this message popped into my inbox. Should we still say
Tehilim? Rivky

>From: Wendy and Jess
>Reply-To: Torah-Centered Homeschooling
>To: TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG
>Subject: Re: [TORCH-D] [QUAR]tehillim
>Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 17:20:24 -0500
>
>Bli ayin hara, Jess seems to be doing well. He's still in the hosoital,
>and is on anti-coagulants. We hope to have him home with us tomorrow
>evening,iy"H. Thanks for your [...]44_27Mar200522:14:20-0500rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM 40701 275 49_Re: planning to be a bad manipulative mommy today11_Rivky Kahan22_rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM31_Sun, 27 Mar 2005 22:54:39 -0500525_- Well, i have to go to bed soon. You said you responded to me that morning
hoping i would see your message before i carried out my plans. Well, hey, i
still didnt see that response. Was it a private message or through the list?
You said there are plenty of other more effective strategies. Could you name
a few? I have already had many talks with him on other fast days. I have
told him it is not a mitzvah for someone his age to fast-that this is not
what Hashem wants. I have tried over and over to [...]44_27Mar200522:54:39-0500rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM 40977 115 14_Re: Motivators11_Rivky Kahan22_rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM31_Mon, 28 Mar 2005 08:01:54 -0500568_- You bring up some valid points. I have been thinking about this thread
lately when situations come up with my kids where i am put in a situation
that might call for praise or what. Previously, i would have just reacted by
instincts, but now i find myself asking myself what folks on this list would
say about this situation. I dont think this is healthy at all, and actually
i find this reaction quite annoying. Someone should pour cold water over my
head and tell me to go back to my good ol' instincts again and stop
analyzing everything [...]44_28Mar200508:01:54-0500rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM 41093 51 10_Re: tznius15_Nicole Brackman18_drnb1969@YAHOO.COM31_Mon, 28 Mar 2005 05:03:36 -0800463_us-ascii BS"D

I have a great book called "Outside Inside" by Gila Manolson on the topic of tzniut. It's written for ba'alei teshuva, which means its style is accessible and conversational. It really gets across the idea of tzniut as an all-over concept (as opposed to merely a dress code) without being didactic or condescending. I highly recommend it for a high school girl or older. She also has a book called "The Magic Touch" about shomer negiah. [...]40_28Mar200505:03:36-0800drnb1969@YAHOO.COM 41145 99 49_Re: planning to be a bad manipulative mommy today13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Mon, 28 Mar 2005 14:07:35 -0800535_us-ascii I replied onlist to you right after you posted but changed the subject line to 'letting kids fast'. Here it is again:

"What is so bad about letting him fast and let him feel the natural consequences? Maybe he will get hungry and decide to eat something; you can just stay quiet and not rub it in. Maybe he will fast the entire day and be fine. It is very unlikely that he is going to black out - but just for theoretical purposes, let's say that he does. So then you can insist he drink something because he isn't [...]44_28Mar200514:07:35-0800avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 41245 126 14_Re: Motivators17_Chana Silberstein16_cs32@CORNELL.EDU31_Mon, 28 Mar 2005 16:30:27 -0500462_us-ascii Moriah, I would agree that "pretending" often beats expressing our
true feelings, when our true feelings are nothing to proud of. Better
to "pretend" to be happy to soothe a crying child than to say " Oh,
no, this is the last thing I needed now." Better to "pretend" to be
happy to see a guest than to say " Not you again." Better to
"pretend" to be calm when you are in a terrible mood and feel like
cutting every one else down. [...]38_28Mar200516:30:27-0500cs32@CORNELL.EDU 41372 70 49_Re: planning to be a bad manipulative mommy today17_Chana Silberstein16_cs32@CORNELL.EDU31_Mon, 28 Mar 2005 20:49:02 -0500586_us-ascii Reading and rereading your post, I am not sure why it matters so much
to you that he not fast.

One possibility is that this is a "religious" argument: he has no
obligation to fast, and halachically, should not be made to fast, and
therefore you think he must eat, while he thinks since adults fast,
fasting must be an "important" thing, and wants to take part. In your
household, this is compounded by the fact that everyone else in the
house is fasting, which makes him feel "different" for eating. In
this case, if this still matters so much [...]38_28Mar200520:49:02-0500cs32@CORNELL.EDU 41443 63 22_what is your day like?15_Nicole Brackman18_drnb1969@YAHOO.COM31_Mon, 28 Mar 2005 17:51:28 -0800534_us-ascii BS"D

Okay, well, for those who remember (or care?) we were trying to figure out whether to homeschool my oldest dd (now 4 1/2) next year. I started considering it primarily for financial reasons (tuition is just not doable as is, and I'm due with #3 IY"H in August so going back to work as a teacher in Sep. is unpleasant to contemplate - the school won't give much of a break and I don't see the point of paying a babysitter to watch my toddler and baby and a school to teach my daughter while I run around like [...]40_28Mar200517:51:28-0800drnb1969@YAHOO.COM 41507 88 18_Re: [QUAR]tehillim14_Wendy and Jess15_viking@STIS.NET31_Mon, 28 Mar 2005 21:11:08 -0500479_iso-8859-1 Rivky,
Please do! Unfortunately, he's still in the hospital, and will appreciate
your efforts on his behalf. (As will I.) Tizku l'mitzvos!
Wendy in Miami
Mom to Esti (9), Moshe Yosef (7), Akiva (5), Rachmy (2) and Yocheved Miriam
(born at home on 12/4/04!)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rivky Kahan"
To:
Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2005 10:14 PM
Subject: Re: [TORCH-D] [QUAR]tehillim [...]37_28Mar200521:11:08-0500viking@STIS.NET 41596 22 29_motivation,Purim, tznius etc.11_Susan Lapin20_suelap@EARTHLINK.NET31_Mon, 28 Mar 2005 20:16:24 -0800565_iso-8859-1 I have been traveling a great deal, including being away for Purim, (which
means not getting on the computer) and just wanted to thank everyone for
such interesting posts. Sounds like people had a lovely holiday, as did we.

Susan

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by
Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org,
a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and
an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...]42_28Mar200520:16:24-0800suelap@EARTHLINK.NET 41619 152 26_Re: what is your day like?6_Zohari20_najova@EARTHLINK.NET31_Mon, 28 Mar 2005 21:31:10 -0700475_US-ASCII Dear Nicole,

This is Shoshana Z. in Denver. I must say that you and I are in a very
similar boat, but my kids are about a year or so older than yours. I
actually got on this list when I had just had baby #3 because I couldn't
imagine how on earth homeschooling would work. This year has been an
amazing learning process, so here are some general thoughts based on my
situation. A lot of this is logistics and not specifically educational: [...]42_28Mar200521:31:10-0700najova@EARTHLINK.NET 41772 68 32_Re: motivators / Rivky's dilemma10_Louise Fox20_louise@JOSHUAFOX.COM31_Tue, 29 Mar 2005 13:37:41 +0200541_ISO-8859-1 Rivky,
I'd like to throw in a suggestion or two for other ways to deal with the
fasting situation.

I agree with Avivah that you should think about why it matters to you so
much. Ask a Rav and/or a doctor about it, so that you have the
information you need. Then I would suggest you sit down and discuss it
with your son. If there is a reason (religious or health) why he
shouldn't fast, you will have the information from the third party to
show him - it might even be worth a visit to the rav or [...]42_29Mar200513:37:41+0200louise@JOSHUAFOX.COM 41841 308 26_Re: what is your day like?12_Caryn Lipson24_caryn_lipson@HOTMAIL.COM31_Tue, 29 Mar 2005 06:48:27 -0500569_iso-8859-1 From what I understand, most people in my area who are frum with kids in public school are doing so because their kids need special assistance of one sort or another which they can't get in the yeshiva, or they are have other significant problems with the schools. (There is a local Rabbi who provides limudei kodesh for these kids after regular ps school hours.) I'm not sure how much tuition plays a role since there is assistance available here. Had I been a different person and had known about homeschooling as a real option years ago I would have [...]46_29Mar200506:48:27-0500caryn_lipson@HOTMAIL.COM 42150 107 26_Re: what is your day like?14_Malkie Swidler24_swidler@NETVISION.NET.IL31_Tue, 29 Mar 2005 14:51:25 +0200389_us-ascii >However, I
> was always philosophically attracted to hs'ing and if I wasn't frum (and
> a ba'alat teshuva) it pretty much would be a no-brainer. I'm intimidated
> by the limudei kodesh and also by the social (family/community, not
> socialization for kids) factors. Also dd is very happy in her school
> right now which makes the decision to pull her harder. [...]46_29Mar200514:51:25+0200swidler@NETVISION.NET.IL 42258 259 26_Re: what is your day like?17_Chana Silberstein16_cs32@CORNELL.EDU31_Tue, 29 Mar 2005 08:08:02 -0500529_us-ascii Try to make the case for H-schooling a positive one, rather than a
negative one.
"Would love to educate my own kids" rather than "costs too much to
send them to Yeshiva."

Homeschooling a five year old need not be intimidating. Think about
what you want to include in your day:
1) an appreciation for basic daily structure
2) exposure to a "rich environment" offering many opportunities for
learning of all kind
3) opportunity for you to scaffold and support your daughters interests. [...]38_29Mar200508:08:02-0500cs32@CORNELL.EDU 42518 49 10_pretending18_Mrs Moriah Chesler25_merilyn@CHESLER.ABSOL.COM31_Tue, 29 Mar 2005 09:53:04 -0500514_- The ultimate goal is to be able to think and do without pretending. But
Rabbi Pliskin says that if it's hard to do for most of us, who are trying to
be good, but the yetzer hara is in its way, then pretend. Once you get the
hang of pretending, it becomes part of you, and you are actually
transforming yourself into the person you want to be. The pretending is no
longer part of you, which you have to 'act' to be, but eventually, the good
part of you will show and it's no longer an act. [...]47_29Mar200509:53:04-0500merilyn@CHESLER.ABSOL.COM 42568 32 14_Re: pretending18_Mrs Moriah Chesler25_merilyn@CHESLER.ABSOL.COM31_Tue, 29 Mar 2005 09:57:50 -0500645_us-ascii Sorry about the mispellings. Hard to type w/ one hand, while holding baby.

>
> Another thing is blessing GaShem. I wasn't used to saying Baeruch HaShem,
^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^
HaShem Baruch
> but I've trained myself to do so, and am training my kids to say so.
>
> I hope this clears it up.
>
> Moriah

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by
Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org,
a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and
an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...]47_29Mar200509:57:50-0500merilyn@CHESLER.ABSOL.COM 42601 99 26_Re: what is your day like?15_Michelle Miller25_michelletamar@HOTMAIL.COM31_Tue, 29 Mar 2005 08:10:19 -0700325_- Nicole,

Please keep in mind that with a 4 1/2 year old you have several years before
your child is even legally required to be in school (in our state it is 7).
I know many people put their kinderlach in yeshiva pre-k after they are
barely walking, but obviously this list doesn't share that hashkafa. [...]47_29Mar200508:10:19-0700michelletamar@HOTMAIL.COM 42701 114 26_Re: what is your day like?11_Rivky Kahan22_rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM31_Tue, 29 Mar 2005 13:34:35 -0500560_- I dont know if this is going to make you feel better or worse, but i've been
homeschooling for quite a number of years, and still havent figured it out
:-(. You'd think by now, i should know if i believe in unschooling,
school-at homeing, or what, but i'm still as confused as ever, and no amount
of reading up on the subject seems to make things any clearer to me. In the
end, i find myself, i guess, doing some combination of the two. Lots of sit
down structured learning, but always being relaxed about it-never trying to
follow [...]44_29Mar200513:34:35-0500rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM 42816 125 21_Re: Taking a year off17_Chana Silberstein16_cs32@CORNELL.EDU31_Tue, 29 Mar 2005 16:06:48 -0500390_us-ascii >>However, I was always philosophically attracted to hs'ing and if I
>>wasn't frum (and a ba'alat teshuva) it pretty much would be a
>>no-brainer. I'm intimidated by the limudei kodesh and also by the
>>social (family/community, not socialization for kids) factors. Also
>>dd is very happy in her school right now which makes the decision
>>to pull her harder. [...]38_29Mar200516:06:48-0500cs32@CORNELL.EDU 42942 35 32_Re: motivators / Rivky's dilemma14_Malkie Swidler24_swidler@NETVISION.NET.IL31_Tue, 29 Mar 2005 23:43:16 +0200469_us-ascii Rivky--

Almost all the ideas presented here exist in one form or another in the
Faber-Mazlish book, "How to talk so kids will listen and listen so kids
will talk". This is a book to buy and to refer to often. And the best
part is, it's got comics, so you can get all the main ideas of the book
fast. Granted, it takes time to learn the skills, but once you've made a
kinyan on them, everyone in the family (including you!) benefits. [...]46_29Mar200523:43:16+0200swidler@NETVISION.NET.IL 42978 80 18_Re: [QUAR]tehillim13_gilla s weiss20_weissfambh@YAHOO.COM31_Tue, 29 Mar 2005 13:00:13 -0800535_us-ascii I just now had the time to go on the computer after ahectic purim and not feeling well and saw your post. wishing your husband arefuah shelaimah. btw I see you are in Miami, We are in Boca but we car pool our oldest to school in NMB. It's hard but she is really happy and B'H this is her last year there.Right now we are homeschooling 5yr old 4yr old boys and ofcourse baby tags along, next year we are considering adding our 8 yr old daughter, she really wants to homeschool, unfortunately there are no other frum girls [...]42_29Mar200513:00:13-0800weissfambh@YAHOO.COM 43059 43 21_What To Tell An Anti?14_Bill Bernstein27_billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET31_Tue, 29 Mar 2005 21:18:10 -0600618_ISO-8859-1 Well, I have been reading here on and off about people's encounters with
anti-homeschoolers for one reason or another. The posts were sort of
interesting in an indirect way. Every person I ever met that I
mentioned this to was always very supportive and somewhat admiring of
what we were doing. Until yesterday.
Uncommonly we stayed for kiddush at shul. I ended up seated next to a
single mother of a teenaged daughter who has been coming for some time.
As the conversation evolved I told her what I did and she proceeded to
unload her feelings about homeschooling. Essentially [...]49_29Mar200521:18:10-0600billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET 43103 133 26_Re: what is your day like?12_Harry Broome21_harrybroome@YAHOO.COM31_Wed, 30 Mar 2005 00:59:00 -0800581_us-ascii Our daughter - our oldest child - is 4 1/2, too, but
not in school. Our sons are 3 and 1. All of the more
experienced posters have given such good advice (we're
going to heed it as well!) - I just want to add my
humble opinion that whatever kind of learning activity
you do, if your daughter doesn't seem to be enjoying
it, or "getting" it, back off. That's one of the
advantages of homeschooling that we are already
experiencing in our family - the education is geared
toward the child. Our daughter, for example, learned
the aleph-bet [...]43_30Mar200500:59:00-0800harrybroome@YAHOO.COM 43237 55 26_Re: what is your day like?15_Nicole Brackman18_drnb1969@YAHOO.COM31_Wed, 30 Mar 2005 05:39:31 -0800565_us-ascii BS"D

I want to thank everyone for your responses. I practially cried with relief when I read them because it really validated what I had been thinking. I love the idea of saying "we're taking a year off" to people. What a pressure-reliever. And just to be clear, I would NEVER put my dd in public school (barring a need for special resources that we currently don't have). I agreed for my husband's sake to look at it but know -- having gone myself and had a miserable social experience (although academically I did well) -- that I would never [...]40_30Mar200505:39:31-0800drnb1969@YAHOO.COM 43293 85 22_what to say to an anti13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Wed, 30 Mar 2005 07:47:18 -0800564_us-ascii My suggestion in this situation is pretty short and sweet - don't waste your time. There are some people who will never be open to hearing someone else's point of view, and why should you use any of your valuable time or energy on those determined to keep their minds hermetically sealed? Once I realized what kind of person I was dealing with, I would say something like, "We all have our own opinions based on our own experiences, however limited they may be, and you are of course entitled to yours." Said graciously, of course; you don't want to [...]44_30Mar200507:47:18-0800avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 43379 111 26_Re: what to say to an anti13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Wed, 30 Mar 2005 08:20:15 -0800557_us-ascii I want to add another thought - how about letting her explain what good results the school system gets, and how well that has worked for her? When people are anti homeschooling with me, I encourage them to tell me about how wonderful the schools are. Letting people talk it out often leads them to tell you the faults of the school system, with no prompting on your part except a few clarifiying questions. Then you will be able to share some thoughts on the issues at hand without as much argument, since she has already told you some faults [...]44_30Mar200508:20:15-0800avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 43491 47 26_Re: what is your day like?15_Alison Jacobson23_alisonziskind@YAHOO.COM31_Wed, 30 Mar 2005 08:53:32 -0800450_us-ascii Just to reassure you - I know tons of people who feel
this way, although they look very frum on the outside.
So don't despair ... I'm sure this is not an uncommon
belief. We're all growing! A friend of mine, when
people ask if she's frum, says, "Yeah, I'm frum St.
Louis." :)

Alison

--- Nicole Brackman wrote:
> BS"D
>
I still have a long way to go to feel
> "really frum." [...]45_30Mar200508:53:32-0800alisonziskind@YAHOO.COM 43539 40 26_Re: what to say to an anti17_Chana Silberstein16_cs32@CORNELL.EDU31_Wed, 30 Mar 2005 12:49:43 -0500658_us-ascii >
>
>If she would have been open to hearing your perspective, well, that
>is a whole 'nother question! I would listen, validate her
>experiences, and talk about my experiences. Let's be honest, all
>homeschoolers don't turn out equally wonderfully; at the same time,
>homeschooling can't be soley faulted for that. Parenting is a big
>part of homeschooling, and a child who socially doesn't do well is
>often coming from a family in which his parents haven't modelled
>great social skills (assuming no low level autism, Aspergers, etc)
>or have provided little opportunity to learn those skills. School
>is not [...]38_30Mar200512:49:43-0500cs32@CORNELL.EDU 43580 71 25_Re: What To Tell An Anti?17_Chana Silberstein16_cs32@CORNELL.EDU31_Wed, 30 Mar 2005 12:44:39 -0500461_us-ascii Well, when you are not going to persuade anyone to change their mind,
going into therapist mode is sometimes useful.

"Hm, I can see you find the idea of homeschooling really disturbing.
You must have had some terrible experience with it to find that it
bothers you so much."

" yes, I can see why you may have generalized from that one
experience so that it would be hard for you to see any benefits in
homeschooling." [...]38_30Mar200512:44:39-0500cs32@CORNELL.EDU 43652 96 25_Re: What To Tell An Anti?14_Malkie Swidler24_swidler@NETVISION.NET.IL31_Thu, 31 Mar 2005 01:59:19 +0200404_us-ascii Actually, this one's not really an anti. She's a venter. She's willing
to even talk about her views, and in a year or two she'll be willing to
hear a different opinion.

The real antis just turn colors at the mention of the word
'homeschooling' (white and red seem to be the favorites) and walk away
from you, backwards as though you're the Kotel, and then break and run. [...]46_31Mar200501:59:19+0200swidler@NETVISION.NET.IL 43749 109 32_Re: motivators / Rivky's dilemma11_Rivky Kahan22_rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM31_Wed, 30 Mar 2005 19:32:00 -0500518_- I just wanted to thank those who have shared their ideas on how to deal with
my son who insists on fasting. I have saved your messages in my inbox, and
plan to reread them. You have given me some food for thought, and it will
take me some time to figure out what my response is. I'm afraid by the time
i have something worth articulating on the subject, this will be an old
thread and you will all have forgotten what this is about.
But in the meantime, i didnt want all of you to think i was [...]44_30Mar200519:32:00-0500rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM 43859 96 25_Re: What To Tell An Anti?11_Rivky Kahan22_rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM31_Wed, 30 Mar 2005 19:58:22 -0500566_- Bill, i dont mean to sound like i am happy you've had such an experience,
but when reading your post, i did feel kind of relieved, that somebody has
experienced what i have been talking about on this list for so long. You
know how i've kept asking this list for suggestions on how to respond to the
anti-homeschoolers. Until now, i have felt like a minority of one, and wasnt
sure that anybody here understood why this bothers me so much. And your last
statement, that you are determined not to stay for kiddish again, really hit
a nerve [...]44_30Mar200519:58:22-0500rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM 43956 55 25_Re: What To Tell An Anti?11_Rivky Kahan22_rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM31_Wed, 30 Mar 2005 20:06:55 -0500540_- >From: Chana Silberstein
>Reply-To: Torah-Centered Homeschooling
>To: TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG
>Subject: Re: [TORCH-D] What To Tell An Anti?
>Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 12:44:39 -0500
>
>Well, when you are not going to persuade anyone to change their mind, going
>into therapist mode is sometimes useful.
>
>"Hm, I can see you find the idea of homeschooling really disturbing. You
>must have had some terrible experience with it to find that it bothers you
>so much." [...]44_30Mar200520:06:55-0500rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM 44012 69 25_Re: What To Tell An Anti?10_Larry Beck35_Larry.Beck@GIS.LEICA-GEOSYSTEMS.COM31_Wed, 30 Mar 2005 21:05:27 -0500606_us-ascii Bill,

I normally will discus (i.e., argue) HS with people unless it seems
hopeless. My Rabbi learned that one is prohibited from telling someone
something when you know they won't listen.

Which brings me to an incident that happened a few years ago. I was
hosting a meeting in Atlanta and one of the participants brought his
wife with him. She was an officer in the Fairfax, VA teachers union.
When she found out we were homeschooling our four boys she laid into me
about how terrible HS was. She would not argue the academics, instead
she was so "worried" [...]57_30Mar200521:05:27-0500Larry.Beck@GIS.LEICA-GEOSYSTEMS.COM 44082 84 26_Re: what to say to an anti13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Wed, 30 Mar 2005 18:49:06 -0800595_us-ascii Thanks for pointing this out, Chana. When I wrote, I didn't take the time I should have to phrase my point in a way that wouldn't inadvertently offend someone. I definitely agree with this comment; there are kids who just aren't too social and that's how they are born. Homeschooling can often alleviate this, but they still will never look like poster children for homeschooling. It can be hard on a parent when people assume it is homeschooling that has created the personality/ lack of social skills in a child instead of recognizing the progress made because of homeschooling. [...]44_30Mar200518:49:06-0800avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 44167 53 25_Re: What To Tell An Anti?13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Wed, 30 Mar 2005 18:52:08 -0800581_us-ascii I can tell this was a very satisfying response, but feel like I am missing something in the context of the comment to appreciate it. What was she doing to ensure your kids what kind of job later on?

Larry Beck wrote:After a few days of this, at the end of the meeting, I went up to
her and said thank you. She seem surprised and asked me why I was
thanking her. I said that because of the great job the government
schools and teachers unions were doing she was guaranteeing my
homeschooled sons a job. I spent [...]44_30Mar200518:52:08-0800avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 44221 56 25_Re: What To Tell An Anti?18_Benjamin H Dickman19_bdickman@LUCENT.COM31_Wed, 30 Mar 2005 22:22:21 -0500358_us-ascii bs'd

What I got from the quote was that the products of the public schools
were so poor that homeschooled kids would have no trouble trouncing
them in competition for jobs requiring real skills. The only job
the public school losers would be able to manage would be to teach
public school or be teachers' union apparatchiks. [...]41_30Mar200522:22:21-0500bdickman@LUCENT.COM 44278 246 18_Re: [QUAR]tehillim14_Wendy and Jess15_viking@STIS.NET31_Wed, 30 Mar 2005 21:43:21 -0500526_iso-8859-1 Hi, Gilla,
Do you know Chaya Phillips? She's my Boca buddy. Thanks for your concern. DH is on bedrest now, but at least he's home! We'd love to get together when things return to what passes for normal around here!

Wendy in Miami
Mom to Esti (9), Moshe Yosef (7), Akiva (5), Rachmy (2) and Yocheved Miriam (born at home on 12/4/04!)
----- Original Message -----
From: gilla s weiss
To: TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG
Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2005 4:00 PM
Subject: Re: [TORCH-D] [QUAR]tehillim [...]37_30Mar200521:43:21-0500viking@STIS.NET 44525 95 32_Re: motivators / Rivky's dilemma10_Louise Fox20_louise@JOSHUAFOX.COM31_Thu, 31 Mar 2005 12:49:31 +0200589_ISO-8859-1 Rivky,
I know you have plenty to think about already, but your message is
prompting me to add one more thing.

It sounds like you need to discuss with your son the issue of listening
to his body, explaining that this is part of Torah too. G-d gave us our
bodies to look after (and be holy) not to abuse. Review with him the
laws of fasting - who should/shouldn't/may/may not fast - and under what
circumstances one may/must break his fast. If you had a time when you
couldn't/didn't fast, eg during pregnancy or nursing or illness, maybe
talk [...]42_31Mar200512:49:31+0200louise@JOSHUAFOX.COM 44621 77 25_Re: What To Tell An Anti?11_Rivky Kahan22_rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM31_Thu, 31 Mar 2005 07:10:58 -0500672_- Thats how i understood it, and i couldnt help but smile when i read it.
Rivky

>From: Benjamin H Dickman
>Reply-To: Torah-Centered Homeschooling
>To: TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG
>Subject: Re: [TORCH-D] What To Tell An Anti?
>Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 22:22:21 -0500
>
>bs'd
>
>What I got from the quote was that the products of the public schools
>were so poor that homeschooled kids would have no trouble trouncing
>them in competition for jobs requiring real skills. The only job
>the public school losers would be able to manage would be to teach
>public school or be teachers' union [...]44_31Mar200507:10:58-0500rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM 44699 124 32_Re: motivators / Rivky's dilemma11_Rivky Kahan22_rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM31_Thu, 31 Mar 2005 07:41:53 -0500560_- Louse, i appreciate this response, and it didnt feel so long to me. (I can,
and have, written much longer posts)
I dont know that it would help to discuss with him the issue of listening to
our body. This is a kid who bangs his head, and either doesnt feel the pain,
or chooses to ignore it. Yes, he does have autism. (and for those of you who
are wondering, sometimes autistic people actually dont feel pain) Honestly,
i'm not sure if my fears about all this, is comming from his being autistic,
or comming from his strong willed, [...]44_31Mar200507:41:53-0500rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM 44824 120 18_Re: [QUAR]tehillim11_Rivky Kahan22_rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM31_Thu, 31 Mar 2005 07:46:48 -0500676_- Wendy, the name Chaya Phillips sounds familiar to me. Was she on our Taryag
list? Rivky

>From: Wendy and Jess
>Reply-To: Torah-Centered Homeschooling
>To: TORCH-D@SHAMASH.ORG
>Subject: Re: [TORCH-D] [QUAR]tehillim
>Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 21:43:21 -0500
>
>Hi, Gilla,
>Do you know Chaya Phillips? She's my Boca buddy. Thanks for your concern.
> DH is on bedrest now, but at least he's home! We'd love to get together
>when things return to what passes for normal around here!
>
>Wendy in Miami
>Mom to Esti (9), Moshe Yosef (7), Akiva (5), Rachmy (2) and Yocheved Miriam
>(born at [...]44_31Mar200507:46:48-0500rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM 44945 30 32_Re: motivators / Rivky's dilemma8_S Sloman18_ssloman@NETLAB.COM31_Thu, 31 Mar 2005 09:45:06 -0500539_us-ascii I just want to second the comments of those who suggested you check with
a doctor to see what the real risk would be of his fasting for one day
(and in this case, not even a whole day, since it is a daytime fast). I
wouldn't expect it to be too terrible, especially if he prepares ahead
of time (could even set the clock for him to get up early and have a
meal and drink before the fast actually begins). But, obviously, I am
not a medical professional. So, again, I encourage you to ask someone
who can [...]40_31Mar200509:45:06-0500ssloman@NETLAB.COM 44976 120 32_Re: motivators / Rivky's dilemma12_Caryn Lipson24_caryn_lipson@HOTMAIL.COM31_Thu, 31 Mar 2005 06:15:00 -0500560_iso-8859-1 Just one more thought about the fasting issue - and this depends on what
motivates a particular child and how much they comprehend - might be
explaining the physiology of the body to your son, particularly why the
body needs food, how it uses it, and the effects of lack of food on a young
body. It's probably best to discuss this in a lesson about the body one day
and not as a discussion about fasting. Then he could think about it in his
own time and draw his own conclusions. Perhaps this would work better if it
comes [...]46_31Mar200506:15:00-0500caryn_lipson@HOTMAIL.COM 45097 51 25_Re: What To Tell An Anti?10_Larry Beck35_Larry.Beck@GIS.LEICA-GEOSYSTEMS.COM31_Thu, 31 Mar 2005 08:19:35 -0500614_iso-8859-1 Avivah,

Benzion got it right.

Larry

>
>What I got from the quote was that the products of the public schools
>were so poor that homeschooled kids would have no trouble trouncing
>them in competition for jobs requiring real skills. The only job
>the public school losers would be able to manage would be to teach
>public school or be teachers' union apparatchiks.
>
> Benzion Dickman
>
>On 3/30/2005 9:52 PM, Avivah Werner wrote:
> > I can tell this was a very satisfying response, but feel like I am
> > missing something in the context of the [...]57_31Mar200508:19:35-0500Larry.Beck@GIS.LEICA-GEOSYSTEMS.COM 45149 28 13_Good Morning!11_Rivky Kahan22_rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM31_Thu, 31 Mar 2005 08:00:08 -0500434_- Oh, good morning, Moderators! Nice to see you! :-)
Here i am sitting on this computer since about 7 AM-house is still quiet,
and suddenly i see my messages pop into my inbox, and i just couldnt help
thinking about our moderators (at least one of you anyway :-)) getting up on
this nice morning and joining me here in cyberspace, and couldn't resist the
urge to wave hello.
Well have a nice day-cheerio! Rivky [...]44_31Mar200508:00:08-0500rivkykahan@HOTMAIL.COM 45178 60 25_Re: What To Tell An Anti?14_Bill Bernstein27_billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET31_Thu, 31 Mar 2005 08:25:23 -0600601_ISO-8859-1 I interpreted Larry's comment the same way as most of you: this teacher
and her union were doing such a "fine" job of educating that their
students were noticeably inferior to Larry's kids. I dont doubt that
its true either.
Thanks for the advice, support etc. My gut is that there is no arguing
with some people. And honestly, who cares what this woman's opinion
is? Her kids are grown for the most part.
I have avoided kiddushes not because of bad conversations with
anti-homeschoolers but because my doctor has been very upset at my
weight. If I stay for [...]49_31Mar200508:25:23-0600billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET 45239 120 25_Re: What To Tell An Anti?15_Michelle Miller25_michelletamar@HOTMAIL.COM31_Thu, 31 Mar 2005 07:51:25 -0700366_- You might suggest that an anti-hschooler read, "Dumbing Us Down" by John
Taylor Gato. It is a fast, compelling read. I used to have a lending copy
for those sitting on the fence. BTW, I would also suggest it for anyone who
is feeling burned out or considering school. It will stop you in your
tracks. Written by a Teacher of the Year in New York. [...]47_31Mar200507:51:25-0700michelletamar@HOTMAIL.COM 45360 234 19_anti-homeschoolers?0_17_RENALEVIN@AOL.COM29_Thu, 31 Mar 2005 11:26:50 EST611_US-ASCII In a message dated 3/31/05 1:55:20 AM Eastern Standard Time,
LISTSERV@SHAMASH.ORG writes:

> Essentially she was opposed to
> it because it didnt give kids the opportunity to assume leadership roles
> and thus get admiration from other kids.

HUH? I just don't get this. Leadership roles? In school, there is such a
social hierarchy. If you are not "cool" you are not "in". That's it, an
immutable fact that cannot be changed. Forget about trying to crack the code and
figuring out how to be "cool" so that you can be "in", the rules are not written
anywhere, and [...]37_31Mar200511:26:50ESTRENALEVIN@AOL.COM 45595 45 32_Re: motivators / Rivky's dilemma17_Chana Silberstein16_cs32@CORNELL.EDU31_Thu, 31 Mar 2005 11:55:20 -0500547_us-ascii >I just want to second the comments of those who suggested you check with
>a doctor to see what the real risk would be of his fasting for one day
>(and in this case, not even a whole day, since it is a daytime fast). I
>wouldn't expect it to be too terrible, especially if he prepares ahead
>of time (could even set the clock for him to get up early and have a
>meal and drink before the fast actually begins). But, obviously, I am
>not a medical professional. So, again, I encourage you to ask someone
>who can [...]38_31Mar200511:55:20-0500cs32@CORNELL.EDU 45641 54 28_teen girl secular literature0_17_Sarasimp7@AOL.COM29_Thu, 31 Mar 2005 12:35:57 EST515_US-ASCII My 13 year old daughter asked me to ask for suggestions of good literature
for her. I went through the archives from the last discussion, but she has
read everything.
Thank you.
Sara

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The TORCH-D mailing list is hosted by
Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org,
a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and
an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...]37_31Mar200512:35:57ESTSarasimp7@AOL.COM 45696 39 12_Feeling frum11_Susan Lapin20_suelap@EARTHLINK.NET31_Thu, 31 Mar 2005 10:26:43 -0800597_iso-8859-1 Nicole,

I'm not trying to harp on semantics or be contentious, but may I suggest
that you think about your aspirations, especially since as a hschool mom,
you will have ample opportunity to encourage your kids to follow them. I
don't understand what "frum" is at all. I hope to have a relationship with
God, Torah, and the mitzvot. I think Dennis Prager is absolutely right when
he says that if most Jews have Christmas trees it doesn't make that a Jewish
activity, and I think there is a corollary which is that if most "Orthodox"
Jews do something it [...]42_31Mar200510:26:43-0800suelap@EARTHLINK.NET 45736 24 25_Re: What To Tell An Anti?19_malkiadler@juno.com19_malkiadler@JUNO.COM29_Thu, 31 Mar 2005 18:34:43 GMT527_- The idea of responding like this"I can see that this really bothers you..." is perfect. In fact, I plan on using this technique as soon as I can to my neighbors who asked me to clean up my yard the other day and I was so bothered that they had this- what I feel- strange request- don't they know that my kids play outside alot and if it's not perfect for them is really their problem not mine?(just for the record we are talking about a few bikes and balls not trash or anything unreasonable.) I was pretty floored when [...]39_31Mar200518:34:43GMTmalkiadler@JUNO.COM 45761 72 17_Re: Good Morning!13_Avivah Werner22_avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM31_Thu, 31 Mar 2005 14:41:04 -0800506_us-ascii That was me! I always enjoy when I see people's responses come in when I am online. It gives me a nice connected feeling to know they are out there, even though they don't know I am reading their message right after they have sent it. This morning, I was on at 6 am (and then again at 8 am), and I saw a message come through. I thought to myself, it must be someone from Israel, and sure enough, it was Louise! Then I saw yours come in during my second check in and thought, Rivky is up nice [...]44_31Mar200514:41:04-0800avivahwerner@YAHOO.COM 45834 61 25_Re: What To Tell An Anti?12_Harry Broome21_harrybroome@YAHOO.COM31_Thu, 31 Mar 2005 15:15:45 -0800421_us-ascii Bill, you're right that there is no arguing with some
people - and this applies to any subject where there
are emotions involved, not just homeschooling. When
someone has a strong emotional or psychological stake
in one conclusion, it's almost impossible to change
his or her mind. At most maybe you can plant some
seeds of doubt. But usually one or both sides get
angry and resentful. [...]43_31Mar200515:15:45-0800harrybroome@YAHOO.COM 45896 152 25_Re: What To Tell An Anti?14_Bill Bernstein27_billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET31_Thu, 31 Mar 2005 17:33:59 -0600379_windows-1252 Someone loaned me one of his books (I dont remember which one). I wasn't
very impressed with it. He tends to sell schools short and while I think
there are many problems and issues with schools it can't possibly be as
bad as he says. Most of the major figures in American life in the last
150 years were products of that very system.
KT
Bill. [...]49_31Mar200517:33:59-0600billbernstein@BELLSOUTH.NET