1 SHAMASH.ORG /usr/www/wwwhc/listserv/archives/torch-d December 2003 1 993 16_Re: Jewish Music12_Yael Resnick22_njpmail@mindspring.com30_Mon, 1 Dec 2003 00:48:56 -0500540_us-ascii Hi Moriah!

I don't know if you have the Beetniks "World Beet" CD... But if you
haven't yet heard it, it's definitely one to listen to! (OK, I'm a
little biased, since the Beetniks is my husband's band. :)

The tracks are a mix of styles, from original (mellow) rock to
Carlebach to "world" sounds, all real music with melodies and
harmonies, cool acoustic drumming, feels nice on the ears! 100%
kosher for Jewish families! You can hear samples if you do a search
for Beetniks at www.cdbaby.com. [...]39_a05200f00bbf0830839e1@[165.121.148.229] 995 208 27_FW: FW: Christian curricula23_Shoshana Amelite Sloman18_ssloman@netlab.com30_Mon, 1 Dec 2003 06:54:43 -0500729_us-ascii -----Original Message-----
From: YiddisheMameh@aol.com [mailto:YiddisheMameh@aol.com]
Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2003 3:26 PM
To: ssloman@netlab.com
Subject: Re: FW: Christian curricula

In a message dated 11/29/2003 10:31:36 PM Eastern Standard Time,
ssloman@netlab.com writes:

We do exactly what Rena does, and use Apologia as well, though I prefer
their books for seventh and eighth grade over the high school ones.
We've also done this with history, because secular books leave out
religion from areas like the founding of this country and the Civil War
and that is simply deceptive. I'd rather work with the Christian books
and it's led to fascinating discussions. I [...]39_1Dec200306:54:43-0500ssloman@netlab.com 1204 251 27_FW: FW: Christian curricula23_Shoshana Amelite Sloman18_ssloman@netlab.com30_Mon, 1 Dec 2003 07:16:39 -0500595_us-ascii -----Original Message-----
From: Francine Sherwood [mailto:tsipi@bellsouth.net]
Sent: Monday, December 01, 2003 7:09 AM
To: ssloman@netlab.com
Subject: Re: FW: Christian curricula

Where do you find their stuff. Are there websites or catalogs?
Francine

-----Original Message-----
From: YiddisheMameh@aol.com [mailto:YiddisheMameh@aol.com]
Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2003 3:26 PM
To: ssloman@netlab.com
Subject: Re: FW: Christian curricula

In a message dated 11/29/2003 10:31:36 PM Eastern Standard Time,
ssloman@netlab.com writes: [...]39_1Dec200307:16:39-0500ssloman@netlab.com 1456 502 31_FW: FW: FW: Christian curricula23_Shoshana Amelite Sloman18_ssloman@netlab.com30_Mon, 1 Dec 2003 09:13:15 -0500588_us-ascii -----Original Message-----
From: YiddisheMameh@aol.com [mailto:YiddisheMameh@aol.com]
Sent: Monday, December 01, 2003 9:08 AM
To: ssloman@netlab.com
Subject: Re: FW: FW: Christian curricula

In a message dated 12/1/2003 7:18:48 AM Eastern Standard Time,
ssloman@netlab.com writes:

Where do you find their stuff. Are there websites or catalogs?
Francine

http://www.olvs.org is what we use.
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
"On the whole, I'd rather be in Philadelphia."--W. C. Fields (and me
too)39_1Dec200309:13:15-0500ssloman@netlab.com 1959 473 27_FW: FW: Christian curricula23_Shoshana Amelite Sloman18_ssloman@netlab.com30_Mon, 1 Dec 2003 11:21:08 -0500483_us-ascii -----Original Message-----
From: Susan Lapin [mailto:suelap@earthlink.net]
Sent: Monday, December 01, 2003 10:59 AM
To: ssloman@netlab.com
Subject: RE: FW: Christian curricula

You can do a Google search or pick up any Christian hschooling magazine
(they're in my public library) and look through the ads. There are tons
of places to get these things. Also, on line places that sell new or
second hand. Chistian curricula is a huge business. [...]39_1Dec200311:21:08-0500ssloman@netlab.com 2433 233 31_FW: FW: FW: Christian curricula23_Shoshana Amelite Sloman18_ssloman@netlab.com30_Mon, 1 Dec 2003 14:55:32 -0500848_us-ascii >-----Original Message-----
>From: Michelle Miller [mailto:michelletamar@hotmail.com]
>Sent: Monday, December 01, 2003 2:31 PM
>To: ssloman@netlab.com
>Subject: Re: FW: FW: Christian curricula
>
>
>
>Shepherd's Nook and Home and Hearth are good online sources
>for new and used
>materials. They will even sell your old stuff for you:) As
>Susan said, a
>Google search will give myriad suppliers.
>
>Tamar
>
>>From: "Shoshana Amelite Sloman"
>>Reply-To: ssloman@netlab.com
>>To: "About religious Jewish home schooling"
>>Subject: FW: FW: Christian curricula
>>Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 11:21:08 -0500
>>
>>
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Susan Lapin [mailto:suelap@earthlink.net]
>>Sent: Monday, December 01, [...]39_1Dec200314:55:32-0500ssloman@netlab.com 2667 107 19_You guys are great!23_Shoshana Amelite Sloman18_ssloman@netlab.com30_Mon, 1 Dec 2003 15:01:10 -0500394_us-ascii Just wanted to comment on the beautiful range of opinions being
expressed here.

Clearly, homeschooling is not associated with one particular hashkafa.

When we worry so much about the conformity expected among religious
Jews, it's very refreshing to see such diversity.

And I am impressed with the self-confidence y'all have in your own way
of being. [...]39_1Dec200315:01:10-0500ssloman@netlab.com 2775 131 15_JEws and Israel13_Barbara Mazor19_barbmazor@yahoo.com36_Mon, 1 Dec 2003 13:52:15 -0800 (PST)497_us-ascii Moriah -

>>I didn't think the gentiles would understand that
the land of Israel and Jews have a symbiotic
relationship, just like a nursing mother and her
infant. <<

Interesting phrase. Take a look at the last chapter
of Isaiah, which is also the Haftorah for Rosh
Chodesh. (which is my son's Bar Mitzvah, btw.)

Barbara

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now
http://companion.yahoo.com/ [...]45_1Dec200313:52:15-0800(PST)barbmazor@yahoo.com 2907 375 30_Chanuka educational activities23_Shoshana Amelite Sloman18_ssloman@netlab.com30_Tue, 2 Dec 2003 06:43:46 -0500238_us-ascii Here the Georgia Dept. of Education lists Chanuka-related learning units
that cover basic educational goals!

http://www.glc.k12.ga.us/newsarch/12_02/Current/celeb/chanukah.htm

Shoshana Sloman
torch-d listowner39_2Dec200306:43:46-0500ssloman@netlab.com 3283 340 32_RE: Women and University degrees23_Shoshana Amelite Sloman18_ssloman@netlab.com30_Tue, 2 Dec 2003 16:12:38 -0500543_us-ascii Amen, Chana!

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-torch-d@shamash.org [mailto:owner-torch-d@shamash.org] On
Behalf Of Eli Silberstein
Sent: Monday, December 01, 2003 11:58 PM
To: About religious Jewish home schooling
Subject: Re: Women and University degrees

In a message dated 12/1/2003 1:06:26 PM Eastern Standard Time,
bbernst@edge.net writes:

I would echo what Michelle says in that I think it is very important for
people to have a means of livelihood that they can fall back on. [...]39_2Dec200316:12:38-0500ssloman@netlab.com 3624 47 28_Women and University degrees13_Barbara Mazor19_barbmazor@yahoo.com36_Tue, 2 Dec 2003 15:21:42 -0800 (PST)650_us-ascii This message is from Michelle, not Barbara. I am just
clearing up a glitch

-----Original Message-----
From: Michelle Miller
[mailto:michelletamar@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2003 5:53 PM
To: ssloman@netlab.com
Subject: RE: Women and University degrees

Sometimes we let other people define us. When I went
in to take an aptitude test for hairdressing twenty
years ago, I had to take a spatial relations test.
They told me they had never seen one do as poorly as I
did. I just could not figure this stuff out, and it
sure didn't look like hair to me! I ignored them and
went [...]45_2Dec200315:21:42-0800(PST)barbmazor@yahoo.com 3672 92 32_RE: Women and University Degrees23_Shoshana Amelite Sloman18_ssloman@netlab.com30_Tue, 2 Dec 2003 18:50:41 -0500758_us-ascii Very moving, Moriah. We sometimes take for granted the amazing freedom
we have.

Baruch Hashem for all we have available to live a Torah life.

May we fully utilize our opportunity to do so.

Shoshana Sloman
Torch-d listowner

>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-torch-d@shamash.org
>[mailto:owner-torch-d@shamash.org] On Behalf Of Moriah (Mo-ree-ya)
>Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2003 12:42 AM
>To: About religious Jewish home schooling
>Cc: merilyn@chesler.absol.com
>Subject: Women and University Degrees
>
>
>Hi all,
>
>I think I must have been MISUNDERSTOOD when I mentioned that
>it doesn't matter if a woman has a university degree or
>something to that effect. I [...]39_2Dec200318:50:41-0500ssloman@netlab.com 3765 225 15_RE: unschooling23_Shoshana Amelite Sloman18_ssloman@netlab.com30_Tue, 2 Dec 2003 18:53:39 -0500397_us-ascii There is a lot to what you say here, Avivah.

We can see this in our own lives over and over.

Hashem puts us into situations where we are not comfortable or happy,
yet we recognize that it is precisely then that we do grow.

It's a matter of using wisdom to judge what the child can handle. His
reaction tells us a lot, as does knowledge of his temperament. [...]39_2Dec200318:53:39-0500ssloman@netlab.com 3991 37 27_Take a look at message 338613_Barbara Mazor19_barbmazor@yahoo.com36_Tue, 2 Dec 2003 18:29:30 -0800 (PST)372_us-ascii Hi Shoshi -

Well, it's me. The hypersensitive one here.

Do you think there is just a bit of mean-spiritedness
in the way this is written?

I also don't care for the Nostradamus prediction at
the beginning, although it seems to me that this is
put in automatically instead of the "original message"
type of phrase for a reply. [...]45_2Dec200318:29:30-0800(PST)barbmazor@yahoo.com 4029 1064 16_Please excuse me13_Barbara Mazor19_barbmazor@yahoo.com36_Tue, 2 Dec 2003 18:34:08 -0800 (PST)383_us-ascii Dear List:

I am so, so sorry and so embarrassed.

The last message, I sent was meant to be private to
Shoshana, the list owner.

I accidentally sent it to the Torch list because I
just wasn't concentrating on what I was doing, and I
clicked the Torch address, instead of Shoshana's, in
my address book.

Please accept my apologies. [...]45_2Dec200318:34:08-0800(PST)barbmazor@yahoo.com 5094 957 12_Jewish Music13_Barbara Mazor19_barbmazor@yahoo.com36_Tue, 2 Dec 2003 22:23:21 -0800 (PST)339_us-ascii Aviva -

You could also look into Klezmer music.

Our very good friend plays in a European band that
used to record as Kol Simcha. It now goes by the name
New World Quartet. They have migrated toward more of
a "world music" sound, hence the name change, but they
still have a distinctly Jewish sound. [...]45_2Dec200322:23:21-0800(PST)barbmazor@yahoo.com 6052 80 38_Teaching about persecution and choices13_Barbara Mazor19_barbmazor@yahoo.com36_Thu, 4 Dec 2003 03:45:53 -0800 (PST)445_us-ascii Yaakov raises some interesting points when teaching
about Jews who were living under persecutions.

>>the protagonists of those stories made
the wrong choice.<<

First of all, I don't think we have the right to make
sweeping generalizations about entire generations of
people. Especially, those of us who have always lived
in the United States, in a situtation of unprecedented
freedom and tolerance. [...]45_4Dec200303:45:53-0800(PST)barbmazor@yahoo.com 6133 538 16_RE: Jewish Music23_Shoshana Amelite Sloman18_ssloman@netlab.com30_Thu, 4 Dec 2003 07:04:49 -0500479_us-ascii Yes. I discovered Andy Statman when I began to get into bluegrass
mandolin playing. I have his instruction book.

He is also an accomplished at klezmer clarinetist.

At this point he has developed his own style of music that has been
described as Chassidic jazz. (I believe his a Modzitzer Chassid).

Here's an article:

http://www.sdjewishjournal.com/stories/article2.html

He plays a lot in NYC, for those of you in that area. [...]39_4Dec200307:04:49-0500ssloman@netlab.com 6672 394 8_Sweeping13_Barbara Mazor19_barbmazor@yahoo.com36_Thu, 4 Dec 2003 12:17:19 -0800 (PST)465_us-ascii Sara -

>>Anybody know to what custom this line alludes:
"sweeping the floor from the center outwards" <<

I actually once read that it was sweeping from the
edges to the center of the room, rather than sweeping
out the door. The reason was that people would clean
on Erev Shabbat and did not want to be seen doing so,
lest someone would think they were preparing for
Shabbat. I have no idea of the authenticity of this. [...]45_4Dec200312:17:19-0800(PST)barbmazor@yahoo.com 7067 938 16_Converso customs13_Barbara Mazor19_barbmazor@yahoo.com36_Thu, 4 Dec 2003 12:34:45 -0800 (PST)485_us-ascii For those interested in the subject, here is an article about the practices of conversos in Latin America and the American Southwest.

http://www.cs.tau.ac.il/~nachumd/sch/sch/PAPERS/Obscure.txt

>From the article re. floor sweeping:

Most anusim sweep floors towards the center of the room. This very
matrilineal practice is described as something the Portuguese still give
their lives for by Moshe Hagiz two hundred years after the Expulsion:34 [...]45_4Dec200312:34:45-0800(PST)barbmazor@yahoo.com 8006 62 37_RE: Bulletin boards, email and voting23_Shoshana Amelite Sloman18_ssloman@netlab.com30_Fri, 5 Dec 2003 06:00:41 -0500770_US-ASCII Thanks, Rick.

What ultimately worked out was that Shamash graciously moved our
archives to a private location, only accessible to listmembers.

So we are staying with the list, just as it is configured.

(Shamash also requested that listmembers make a donation, if possible,
to support their provision of services to us.)

Thanks again,
Shoshana Sloman
Torch-d listowner

>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-torch-d@shamash.org
>[mailto:owner-torch-d@shamash.org] On Behalf Of Rick Dinitz
>Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2003 11:50 AM
>To: About religious Jewish home schooling
>Subject: Re: Bulletin boards, email and voting
>
>
>OK, clarity it is.
>
>I read email, but I don't [...]39_5Dec200306:00:41-0500ssloman@netlab.com 8069 49 37_RE: Bulletin boards, email and voting23_Shoshana Amelite Sloman18_ssloman@netlab.com30_Fri, 5 Dec 2003 10:05:56 -0500639_US-ASCII >Shoshana,
>
>The archives are private now? That is wonderful.
>
>Tamar

Oh, yes!

I'm sorry you missed my post about that.

Awhile back the Shamash staff took the time to manually relocate them.
They can be accessed by listmembers only now.

Of course, the stuff that Google grabbed initially is still available
until they dump their cache.

Also, as I mentioned, the Shamash staff reviewed our records and
realized that they had never collected any money from our list in all
these years. They asked if we would be so kind as to contribute to
defray their expenses. [...]39_5Dec200310:05:56-0500ssloman@netlab.com 8119 1194 42_RE: Teaching about persecution and choices23_Shoshana Amelite Sloman18_ssloman@netlab.com30_Fri, 5 Dec 2003 11:00:06 -0500322_US-ASCII Susan, I like what you say here, and how you put it.

We need to be careful not to judge the individuals who make the choices,
even if it seems clear to us that the choice turned out to be a bad one.
We must realize that we are dependent on G-d to save us from such
mistakes in our own lives. [...]39_5Dec200311:00:06-0500ssloman@netlab.com 9314 33 15_Girls who shoot13_Barbara Mazor19_barbmazor@yahoo.com36_Sat, 6 Dec 2003 16:36:03 -0800 (PST)428_us-ascii Susan -

>>(Rena, talk about things that do not go down in the
plus column of shidduchim. My twenty-one year old
daughter is the best shot in the family) <<

We actually know a lot of guys in the martial arts who
would love a girl who can shoot!! ;-)

Barbara

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now
http://companion.yahoo.com/ [...]45_6Dec200316:36:03-0800(PST)barbmazor@yahoo.com 9348 60 19_RE: Girls who shoot23_Shoshana Amelite Sloman18_ssloman@netlab.com30_Sat, 6 Dec 2003 20:11:43 -0500698_us-ascii Wow! We are gonna have some GREAT shidduchim coming up, here.

Gals who shoot and guys who do martial arts!

Shoshana Sloman
Torch-d listowner

>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-torch-d@shamash.org
>[mailto:owner-torch-d@shamash.org] On Behalf Of Barbara Mazor
>Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2003 7:36 PM
>To: About religious Jewish home schooling
>Subject: Girls who shoot
>
>
>Susan -
>
>>>(Rena, talk about things that do not go down in the
>plus column of shidduchim. My twenty-one year old
>daughter is the best shot in the family) <<
>
>We actually know a lot of guys in the martial arts who
>would love a [...]39_6Dec200320:11:43-0500ssloman@netlab.com 9409 133 42_RE: Teaching about persecution and choices23_Shoshana Amelite Sloman18_ssloman@netlab.com30_Sat, 6 Dec 2003 20:16:17 -0500747_us-ascii -----Original Message-----
From: owner-torch-d@shamash.org [mailto:owner-torch-d@shamash.org] On
Behalf Of YiddisheMameh@aol.com
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2003 8:22 AM
To: About religious Jewish home schooling
Subject: Re: Teaching about persecution and choices

In a message dated 12/4/2003 8:47:03 PM Eastern Standard Time,
cb@ieee.org writes:

Jews in New Jersey, New York, Maryland, Chicago,
etc. won't see it happen, but Jews in the ballast of the country such
as Tennessee, Indiana, Pennsylvania except Philly, Texas, Arizona, etc.
who exercise the rights granted to them by the US (and G-d?) will most
assuredly know if Jews or the entire population is disarmed. In my
reading of [...]39_6Dec200320:16:17-0500ssloman@netlab.com 9543 1288 31_OT: History of Gun Control Laws13_Barbara Mazor19_barbmazor@yahoo.com36_Sat, 6 Dec 2003 17:47:04 -0800 (PST)397_us-ascii I was so intrigued by Sue's statement about a connection between US Gun Laws and Nazi Gun Law, I did a little googling. For anyone who is interested here is what I found:

The following is an excerpt from an article about the history of Gun Laws. It is from the Houghton Mifflin site. I also found some info on the "Nazi connection". I write about that after the first except: [...]45_6Dec200317:47:04-0800(PST)barbmazor@yahoo.com 10832 1110 16_RE: Self-defense23_Shoshana Amelite Sloman18_ssloman@netlab.com30_Sun, 7 Dec 2003 21:00:31 -0500558_us-ascii Don't worry, Moriah. With G-d's help, Barbara and I try never to let
any rotten eggs get through.

Shoshana Sloman
Torch-d listowner

>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-torch-d@shamash.org
>[mailto:owner-torch-d@shamash.org] On Behalf Of Moriah (Mo-ree-ya)
>Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2003 2:11 PM
>To: About religious Jewish home schooling
>Cc: Moriah (Mo-ree-ya)
>Subject: Self-defense
>
>
>
>I'm going to sound unpopular by saying this... but no rotten
>eggs please.... here it goes: [...]39_7Dec200321:00:31-0500ssloman@netlab.com 11943 56 16_RE: Self-defense23_Shoshana Amelite Sloman18_ssloman@netlab.com30_Mon, 8 Dec 2003 14:30:28 -0500717_us-ascii I think you hit the nail on the head, Shoshana.

Shoshana Sloman
Torch-d listowner

>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-torch-d@shamash.org
>[mailto:owner-torch-d@shamash.org] On Behalf Of Shoshana
>Sent: Monday, December 08, 2003 3:48 AM
>To: About religious Jewish home schooling
>Subject: Re: Self-defense
>
>Moriah,
>
>We all agree with you on this. However, the Torah also teaches
>us that we have to take measures to protect ourselves.
>Sometimes we have to take a first step before the "miracle"
>will happen. I give the example of the splitting of the Red
>Sea. The sea didn't split automatically. The Jews had to start
>crossing it [...]39_8Dec200314:30:28-0500ssloman@netlab.com 12000 717 15_RE: shooting ??23_Shoshana Amelite Sloman18_ssloman@netlab.com30_Mon, 8 Dec 2003 14:40:45 -0500381_us-ascii This is my husband's approach, too. He doesn't allow the children to
have toy guns or pretend to shoot with anything, or verbally threaten to
shoot anyone in play (or otherwise!). He wants them to respect the fact
that guns are NOT toys.

He shows them the real guns, how they work, etc., and impresses on them
the proper safe behavior around guns. [...]39_8Dec200314:40:45-0500ssloman@netlab.com 12718 431 17_Dispensationalism13_Barbara Mazor19_barbmazor@yahoo.com36_Mon, 8 Dec 2003 16:41:19 -0800 (PST)416_us-ascii Bill and others:

Here is the address of wikipedia article on Dispensationalism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dispensationalism

It is reasonably short and to the point. You can do a search on Dispensationalism. When I did it I find mostly church related sites, that were, well, uh, church related and long winded.

Barbara

---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?45_8Dec200316:41:19-0800(PST)barbmazor@yahoo.com 13150 331 37_RE: anti semitism and observing Torah23_Shoshana Amelite Sloman18_ssloman@netlab.com30_Mon, 8 Dec 2003 20:23:13 -0500441_us-ascii >I respect all the opinions and input of the people on this
>list. I'm grateful to be here and counted among such a
>thoughtful and dedicated group.
>
>kol tuv, Laya

Laya,

I also respect the input of all beautiful souls here.

Thank you for being here.

Thank you ALL for being here and making this a place where there can be
lively debate in an atmosphere of respect and derech eretz. [...]39_8Dec200320:23:13-0500ssloman@netlab.com 13482 1048 45_RE: anti semitism and Evangelical Protestants23_Shoshana Amelite Sloman18_ssloman@netlab.com30_Mon, 8 Dec 2003 21:21:38 -0500637_us-ascii I have tons of sources on this, Bill. In addition to having done tons
of research on Christian doctrines (in a past life), I have a book that
outlines the major doctrinal schools and how they differ in various
aspects (theology, eschatology, angelology, etc.).

Shoshana Sloman
torch-d listowner

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-torch-d@shamash.org [mailto:owner-torch-d@shamash.org] On
Behalf Of Bill Bernstein
Sent: Monday, December 08, 2003 10:54 AM
To: About religious Jewish home schooling
Cc: jonnelleh@oburg.net
Subject: Re: anti semitism and Evangelical Protestants [...]39_8Dec200321:21:38-0500ssloman@netlab.com 14531 1035 51_Re: Books on Jewish history in Hebrew (with vowels)13_Barbara Mazor19_barbmazor@yahoo.com37_Wed, 10 Dec 2003 12:03:06 -0800 (PST)686_us-ascii Jonelle -

You want to look for Gesher Books which were published by the World Zionist Organization. The books are all kinds of subjects, including history.

>>The Gesher Books are a series of books designed expressly for the student in the Golah, by the W.Z.O. Department of Education. They come in 4 levels and very popular for enrichment and extra-curricular activities.
The Gesher Books provide a perfect "Gesher" (Bridge) to the
introduction of literature in your classes, book reports, oral discussions and discourse.
Other simpler Geshers could encourage story reading for your students, to help with language, discussions and extra-curricular [...]46_10Dec200312:03:06-0800(PST)barbmazor@yahoo.com 15567 126 17_Article on Israel13_Barbara Mazor19_barbmazor@yahoo.com37_Thu, 11 Dec 2003 16:36:23 -0800 (PST)364_us-ascii Moriah -

Thank you for the link on Internet chatting. I recommend everyone take a look at it.

The article was written by Rabbi Howard Jachter, whom I know quite well. Rabbi Jachter supervised us when we put built an eruv when I lived in Park Slope. Anyway, he is a real sharp guy with a good head on his shoulders. He is a YU graduate. [...]46_11Dec200316:36:23-0800(PST)barbmazor@yahoo.com 15694 369 13_anti-Semitism13_Barbara Mazor19_barbmazor@yahoo.com37_Sun, 14 Dec 2003 17:03:54 -0800 (PST)340_us-ascii This message was from dev@chayas.com, but got mangled, so I am forwarding it from my box.

Bill Bernstein wrote:

<>
What truth? There will be a shoah in America? Every country has had a shoah? Is there any evidence for this? [...]46_14Dec200317:03:54-0800(PST)barbmazor@yahoo.com 16064 80 21_Re: Article on Israel13_Barbara Mazor19_barbmazor@yahoo.com37_Sun, 14 Dec 2003 18:39:01 -0800 (PST)635_us-ascii Bill wrote:

>>Unfortunately, although the anti-Zionist/non-Zionist argument has a long and distinguished pedigree, those arguments are infrequently heard outside of non-English speaking,non-chareidi circles. I know of no articulate advocate in the English-speaking Orthodox world: those who might be generally keep quiet about it.<<

Actually, anyone interested can find plenty of English articles at the Neturei Karta web-site - www.nkusa.org and link to several other web-sites from there. However, I found many statements on the NK web-site to be inaccurate at best, and smacking of sinat hinam at worst. [...]46_14Dec200318:39:01-0800(PST)barbmazor@yahoo.com 16145 1234 28_Two mistakes in my last post13_Barbara Mazor19_barbmazor@yahoo.com37_Sun, 14 Dec 2003 19:25:12 -0800 (PST)486_us-ascii I just re-read my last post and noticed some mistakes I would like to correct:

I wrote: "I do not believe any Jews living there would not be living under a democracy."

I meant to say: "I do not believe any Jews living there would be living under a democracy. "

I wrote: "I believe Jews living there would have the status of Dhimmi in Muslim regime."
I meant to say: "I believe Jews living there would have the status of Dhimmi in a Muslim regime." [...]46_14Dec200319:25:12-0800(PST)barbmazor@yahoo.com 17380 44 32_Re: Two mistakes in my last post13_Barbara Mazor19_barbmazor@yahoo.com37_Mon, 15 Dec 2003 13:14:48 -0800 (PST)336_us-ascii >>Thats four corrected mistakes so the subject line was wrong as well. Reminds me of the following: <<

Yeah, I know. I wrote the post title. Went to correct the 2 mis-types and found 2 more. As I hit send, I said oh shoot, I didn't change the title.

Barb

---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?46_15Dec200313:14:48-0800(PST)barbmazor@yahoo.com 17425 2314 17_RE: anti-Semitism23_Shoshana Amelite Sloman18_ssloman@netlab.com31_Mon, 15 Dec 2003 18:51:53 -0500404_us-ascii I would tend to agree that the discrimination experienced by Jews in
this country was similar to that suffered by other immigrant groups
until they got a foothold.

I would say it was probably worse than what most were exposed to,
because anti-semitism has a deeper root.

But other ethnic groups were treated badly, refused employment, etc.
("No Irish Need Apply") [...]40_15Dec200318:51:53-0500ssloman@netlab.com 19740 39 26_Prayer for Refuah Shleimah13_Barbara Mazor19_barbmazor@yahoo.com37_Thu, 18 Dec 2003 14:20:50 -0800 (PST)229_us-ascii Please keep "Michelle in Nevada", Yael bat Rivka, in your thoughts and prayers this week. I believe her surgery has been rescheduled for tomorrow.

Barbara

---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?46_18Dec200314:20:50-0800(PST)barbmazor@yahoo.com 19780 126 36_What I got out of the gun discussion13_Barbara Mazor19_barbmazor@yahoo.com37_Thu, 18 Dec 2003 15:45:09 -0800 (PST)285_us-ascii I just wanted to say how interesting the gun discussion. It caused me to consider a topic that I hadn't given any thought to. Someone said that s/he thought the discussion had moved too far afield from homeschooling, but I'd like to let you know how I found it relevant. [...]46_18Dec200315:45:09-0800(PST)barbmazor@yahoo.com 19907 1175 15_Happy Chanukah!23_Shoshana Amelite Sloman18_ssloman@netlab.com31_Fri, 19 Dec 2003 05:46:26 -0500185_US-ASCII My husband made this from a photo of our actual menorah last year:

Have a great Shabbos and first night of Chanukah!

Love,
Shoshana Sloman
torch-d listowner40_19Dec200305:46:26-0500ssloman@netlab.com 21083 766 45_This list, Zionism and anti-Semitism - Part I13_Barbara Mazor19_barbmazor@yahoo.com37_Sun, 21 Dec 2003 12:01:02 -0800 (PST)598_us-ascii Dear Group:
As most of you know, this is a moderated list and I am it's moderator. That means that I read all posts before forwarding them to the group. This is done to keep the list on-topic and the discourse respectful, as well as to avoid flame-wars.

Last Sunday I forwarded a post that expressed not only a strongly anti-Zionist viewpoint, but also made outrageous statements vilifying Zionists and supporters of Israel, accusing them of responsibility for massive amounts of Jewish deaths. It was a mistake for me to forward that post. In the past, I have asked people [...]46_21Dec200312:01:02-0800(PST)barbmazor@yahoo.com 21850 61 50_Re: This list, Zionism and anti-Semitism - Part II13_Barbara Mazor19_barbmazor@yahoo.com37_Wed, 24 Dec 2003 09:50:59 -0800 (PST)339_us-ascii Let’s review how the thread ran. One person asked about how we teach our children about anti-Semitism. This led us into 3 discussions, with some overlap 1) self-defense and guns; 2) the presence or absence of anti-Semitism in America; and 3) whether or not the existence of the State of Israel made the world safer for Jews. [...]46_24Dec200309:50:59-0800(PST)barbmazor@yahoo.com 21912 132 10_Milestones13_Barbara Mazor19_barbmazor@yahoo.com37_Wed, 24 Dec 2003 19:50:59 -0800 (PST)263_us-ascii On a lighter note...

My oldest is now taller than I am. - but I am only 5'0"

Also on a happy note, but more serious, he began laying T'fillin this past Sunday.

Barbara

---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?46_24Dec200319:50:59-0800(PST)barbmazor@yahoo.com 22045 403 14_RE: Milestones23_Shoshana Amelite Sloman18_ssloman@netlab.com31_Wed, 24 Dec 2003 23:08:28 -0500529_US-ASCII Doing a happy dance for your son laying t'fillin!!

My oldest is also 12. His birthday is Hoshana Rabba. He's pretty tall,
but has a ways to go before he passes me--I'm 5'9". :-)

So excited about your son!

Shoshana Sloman
torch-d listowner

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-torch-d@shamash.org [mailto:owner-torch-d@shamash.org] On
Behalf Of Barbara Mazor
Sent: Wednesday, December 24, 2003 10:51 PM
To: About religious Jewish home schooling
Subject: Milestones [...]40_24Dec200323:08:28-0500ssloman@netlab.com 22449 143 34_RE: The Shidduch question revisted23_Shoshana Amelite Sloman18_ssloman@netlab.com31_Wed, 24 Dec 2003 23:35:29 -0500530_US-ASCII >-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-torch-d@shamash.org
>[mailto:owner-torch-d@shamash.org] On Behalf Of Avivah Werner
>Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2003 10:50 PM
>To: About religious Jewish home schooling
>Subject: Re: The Shidduch question revisted
>
>BTW, Susan, I think Shmueley Boteach's name is
>familiar to me from a recommendation he wrote on the
>back of your husband's book (unless I am confusing my
>sources).
>
>Avivah

Well, what-do-you-know? There it is: [...]40_24Dec200323:35:29-0500ssloman@netlab.com 22593 263 34_RE: The Shidduch question revisted23_Shoshana Amelite Sloman18_ssloman@netlab.com31_Thu, 25 Dec 2003 09:12:23 -0500455_US-ASCII Yes. I do see this as reflexive to the idea of physical beauty.

Marriages *can* fall apart (or never get started) for lack of
attraction. But Rabbi Boteach is talking about being overly particular
about specific attributes that are considered attractive. This would be
similar to a woman being concerned not just about the man's ability to
support a family, but about the LEVEL at which she expects to be
provided for. [...]40_25Dec200309:12:23-0500ssloman@netlab.com 22857 68 49_RE: Chanukah and Greek culture - science and math23_Shoshana Amelite Sloman18_ssloman@netlab.com31_Thu, 25 Dec 2003 17:09:06 -0500385_us-ascii I guess my take on it is that we are not celebrating the expulsion of
beauty, science, math, etc., but the reclamation of our Temple.

The problem was not that the Greek culture was completely without merit,
it's that they wanted to wipe out our religion.

After all, it's not like science and math are forbidden in the Torah or
in some way immoral. [...]40_25Dec200317:09:06-0500ssloman@netlab.com 22926 122 42_RE: Greek Science and the Science of Torah23_Shoshana Amelite Sloman18_ssloman@netlab.com31_Thu, 25 Dec 2003 17:17:04 -0500350_us-ascii Interesting how the article points out the flexibility of Torah, how it
deals with the world in flux.

Hashem is so full of surprises. Just when we think we've got the whole
thing straight, and everything's set in stone (so to speak), we find
some unexpected twists--similar to the bending of space near a black
hole. [...]40_25Dec200317:17:04-0500ssloman@netlab.com 23049 564 50_RE: This list, Zionism and anti-Semitism - Part II23_Shoshana Amelite Sloman18_ssloman@netlab.com31_Thu, 25 Dec 2003 19:44:32 -0500436_us-ascii Chana,

Thank you so much for your thoughtful and beautifully-worded post.

I so appreciate that you and others care about this forum enough to take
time to express concerns and make suggestions (in one direction or the
other!).

Barbara and I did discuss the question of how this thread should be
handled. Had it drifted off-topic? Was it too emotionally-charged?
Should we let it continue? [...]40_25Dec200319:44:32-0500ssloman@netlab.com 23614 122 50_RE: This list, Zionism and anti-Semitism - Part II23_Shoshana Amelite Sloman18_ssloman@netlab.com31_Thu, 25 Dec 2003 20:41:23 -0500683_us-ascii Yeah, Barbara! I appreciate it, too!

Shoshana Sloman
torch-d listowner

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-torch-d@shamash.org [mailto:owner-torch-d@shamash.org] On
Behalf Of Susan Lapin
Sent: Thursday, December 25, 2003 8:36 PM
To: About religious Jewish home schooling
Subject: RE: This list, Zionism and anti-Semitism - Part II

Barbara,

I just got back from being with family in NY, so I'm catching up on
posts, but wanted to say that no matter what one's views on Israel (or
pretty much any other topic), I hope you feel the support from all of us
for the amount of work you do keeping this list going, and [...]40_25Dec200320:41:23-0500ssloman@netlab.com 23737 129 14_FW: Milestones23_Shoshana Amelite Sloman18_ssloman@netlab.com31_Fri, 26 Dec 2003 09:28:13 -0500446_us-ascii >From Michelle in NV (somehow received only by me):

-----Original Message-----
From: Michelle in Nevada [mailto:5alive31@charter.net]
Sent: Friday, December 26, 2003 1:53 AM
To: Shoshana Amelite Sloman
Subject: Re: Milestones

B"H

Stand in line . . .

My son, who just turned 13 in August, is 5'11", 195#, and wearing size
14 shoes . . .

Got any tall girls out there for a shidduch?? [...]40_26Dec200309:28:13-0500ssloman@netlab.com 23867 266 14_FW: Milestones23_Shoshana Amelite Sloman18_ssloman@netlab.com31_Fri, 26 Dec 2003 09:28:13 -0500486_us-ascii >From Rena Levin (somehow received only by me):

-----Original Message-----
From: RENALEVIN@aol.com [mailto:RENALEVIN@aol.com]
Sent: Thursday, December 25, 2003 10:47 AM
To: ssloman@netlab.com
Subject: Re: Milestones

In a message dated 12/24/03 11:09:44 PM Eastern Standard Time,
ssloman@netlab.com writes:

My oldest is also 12. His birthday is Hoshana Rabba. He's pretty tall,
but has a ways to go before he passes me--I'm 5'9". :-) [...]40_26Dec200309:28:13-0500ssloman@netlab.com 24134 1830 14_FW: Milestones23_Shoshana Amelite Sloman18_ssloman@netlab.com31_Sat, 27 Dec 2003 18:46:58 -0500469_us-ascii This one from Devora Farrell:

-----Original Message-----
From: Devora Farrell [mailto:dfarrell@execufind.com]
Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2003 5:50 PM
To: ssloman@netlab.com
Subject: Re: Milestones

In a message dated 12/24/03 11:09:44 PM Eastern Standard Time,
ssloman@netlab.com writes:

My oldest is also 12. His birthday is Hoshana Rabba. He's pretty tall,
but has a ways to go before he passes me--I'm 5'9". :-) [...]40_27Dec200318:46:58-0500ssloman@netlab.com 25965 131 34_Re: Learning science and math etc.13_Barbara Mazor19_barbmazor@yahoo.com37_Sun, 28 Dec 2003 09:03:23 -0800 (PST)474_us-ascii Tamar -

>>I will take this opportunity to jump in here regarding Greek and the
Greek myths. How do you all handle this? <<

Can anyone besides Bill give her answer? ;-)

I think my kids asked about this stuff around the time the Hercules movie came out. We had passed on to us the D'Aulaire's (I think that's the author's name.) book on mythology. To my kids it's just stories. They understand that people worshipped idols, and we don't. [...]46_28Dec200309:03:23-0800(PST)barbmazor@yahoo.com 26097 126 45_Chanukah and Greek culture - science and math13_Barbara Mazor19_barbmazor@yahoo.com37_Sun, 28 Dec 2003 09:12:58 -0800 (PST)365_us-ascii >>I posted a response to the list which I don't see in the
digest, about what Greek's mistake was re: Chanukah and its
origin from Noach's blessing to his son Yafes. Perhaps I
would see it in the next digest.<<

Thank you Moriah. I did approve this message and the next but they were not returned to me. Here are the original forwards: [...]46_28Dec200309:12:58-0800(PST)barbmazor@yahoo.com 26224 396 45_Chanukah and Greek culture - science and math13_Barbara Mazor19_barbmazor@yahoo.com37_Sun, 28 Dec 2003 09:14:08 -0800 (PST)698_us-ascii From: "Shoshana"
To:
Subject: Re: Chanukah and Greek culture - science and math

It is interesting that we give all the credit (or at least most of it) to
the Greeks when it comes to Math and Science. Math and Science were around
long before the Greeks became a world influence. Eastern civilizations first
developed mathematical concepts. They built zigurats and other architecture
with their knowledge. The Egyptians used math and science in building their
magnificent structures. The Greeks adopted these concepts when they
conquered these civilizations. Greeks believed education was important so
math and science became widespread. Aristotle and [...]46_28Dec200309:14:08-0800(PST)barbmazor@yahoo.com 26621 1671 15_RE: Greek myths23_Shoshana Amelite Sloman18_ssloman@netlab.com31_Sun, 28 Dec 2003 16:17:56 -0500331_us-ascii I was making a similar point to someone earlier today.

It's completely understandable, and, probably a good idea, to be
especially careful when you are unsure or don't have a lot of facts.
The example I used was poisoned food. If you don't know whether it is
or not, it's better not to take a chance! [...]40_28Dec200316:17:56-0500ssloman@netlab.com 28293 142 11_RE: Sources23_Shoshana Amelite Sloman18_ssloman@netlab.com31_Mon, 29 Dec 2003 07:46:49 -0500702_us-ascii Two things--I'm not clear on what you mean by "showed our situation to
avoid the situation". It sounds as if that means there was no problem
of yichud, but the rest of your remarks seem to indicate the opposite.

The other things is, where did you get that great quote?

Shoshana Sloman
Torch-d listowner

>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-torch-d@shamash.org
>[mailto:owner-torch-d@shamash.org] On Behalf Of Benjamin H Dickman
>Sent: Monday, December 29, 2003 12:36 AM
>To: About religious Jewish home schooling
>Subject: Re: Sources
>
>
>Many years ago, when I was single and dating, a question came
>up between a young lady [...]40_29Dec200307:46:49-0500ssloman@netlab.com 28436 136 38_RE: BTs and converts - re: greek myths23_Shoshana Amelite Sloman18_ssloman@netlab.com31_Mon, 29 Dec 2003 08:18:50 -0500499_us-ascii I think there is a lot to what you say about people who have experienced
dangers being more sensitive to avoiding those things. I have
encountered situations, myself, in which I am more keenly aware of the
destructive potential of certain behaviors than people are who have
never experienced them.

On the other hand, before you have Torah, you are defenseless against
those things, which is different from encountering them from within the
framework of Torah. [...]40_29Dec200308:18:50-0500ssloman@netlab.com 28573 361 11_FW: Sources23_Shoshana Amelite Sloman18_ssloman@netlab.com31_Mon, 29 Dec 2003 09:21:00 -0500699_us-ascii >From Benzion Dickman:

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Benjamin H Dickman [mailto:bdickman@lucent.com]
>Sent: Monday, December 29, 2003 8:27 AM
>To: ssloman@netlab.com
>Subject: Re: Sources
>
>
>Shoshana:
>
>Late night typo. I should have written "showed that we should
>avoid that situation" (sorry). I'll follow up on the source
>of the quote with my Rav.
>
> thanks,
> Benzion Dickman
>
>On 12/29/2003 7:46 AM, Shoshana Amelite Sloman wrote:
>> Two things--I'm not clear on what you mean by "showed our
>situation to
>> avoid the situation". It sounds as if that means there was
>no problem
>> of yichud, but [...]40_29Dec200309:21:00-0500ssloman@netlab.com 28935 530 38_FW: BTs and converts - re: greek myths23_Shoshana Amelite Sloman18_ssloman@netlab.com31_Mon, 29 Dec 2003 15:12:43 -0500705_us-ascii >From Chana Silberstein:

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Eli Silberstein [mailto:es79@cornell.edu]
>Sent: Monday, December 29, 2003 3:11 PM
>To: ssloman@netlab.com
>Subject: RE: BTs and converts - re: greek myths
>
>
>I guess I take issue with the implication of many posts that those
>who avoid Greek myths do so because of lack of "spiritual maturity",
>or particular spiritual vulnerability.
>
>To use Shoshana's example, one may decide never to drink spirits
>because one is too young to exercise control, or because one is prone
>to alcoholism. However, a person may also decide to refrain from
>these drinks because these drinks are [...]40_29Dec200315:12:43-0500ssloman@netlab.com 29466 70 17_Re: facts of life13_Barbara Mazor19_barbmazor@yahoo.com37_Tue, 30 Dec 2003 12:58:52 -0800 (PST)423_us-ascii >>How do
> you all handle the "facts of life" discussions?.
> I've been pondering this a
> lot lately as my son is 9. <<

Ok, I will take a crack at this.

I have always answered their questions when they asked - although I don't know why my older one always seems to ask these things either in public or while I am driving. So, I have pretty much answered his questions as they came up. [...]46_30Dec200312:58:52-0800(PST)barbmazor@yahoo.com 29537 680 12_Post lengths13_Barbara Mazor19_barbmazor@yahoo.com37_Tue, 30 Dec 2003 13:04:55 -0800 (PST)382_us-ascii Many email programs are set up so that when the reply button is pressed, the contents of the original email are automatically copied into the reply. Sometimes very long chains of emails can build up.

It is appreciated if when relplying, to take a few seconds to delete any unnecessary parts of the original email, leaving only what is relevant to the response. [...]46_30Dec200313:04:55-0800(PST)barbmazor@yahoo.com 30218 1171 17_Re: facts of life13_Barbara Mazor19_barbmazor@yahoo.com37_Tue, 30 Dec 2003 18:44:07 -0800 (PST)218_us-ascii I looked at the Feldheim site.

Is anyone familiar with this book? The Thinking Jewish Teenager's Guide to Life
by Tatz, Akiva

Barbara

---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?46_30Dec200318:44:07-0800(PST)barbmazor@yahoo.com 31390 66 19_RE: Facts of Humash23_Shoshana Amelite Sloman18_ssloman@netlab.com31_Wed, 31 Dec 2003 19:52:59 -0500547_us-ascii Interestingly, this ties into the question of how to teach the facts of
life. Because if you've already given the younger kids some sort of
simple framework, they can understand these things within that context.

>From an early age, my kids were inquistive about "how the baby gets
out", "how did it get in there", etc. By answering in simple terms
(without overdoing the amount of information), and presenting with a
Torah approach, they at least have some way of integrating what some of
these things mean. [...]40_31Dec200319:52:59-0500ssloman@netlab.com