1 SHAMASH.ORG /usr/www/wwwhc/listserv/archives/scj-parenting December 1996 2 50 39_Re: Why is the Havdalah candle twisted?0_38_Rabbi.Ari.Sitnik@sunburst.ccs.yorku.ca37_Sat, 30 Nov 1996 23:47:09 -0500 (EST)537_- The answer is very simple: The Havdalah candle is acutally supposed to be a "torch" and with more than one wick, it is halachically considered to be one. From the manufacturer's point of view, it is easier to twist or braid the wicks. If, however, you do not have a havdalah candle, two common candles with their flames joined are just as good. The reason for it all is that Adam Harishon (Adam) was taught to light fire after the first Shabbat and in memory of it we "enjoy" the light of a torch at the conclusion of Shabbat (by [...] 53 33 16_christmas coping0_21_rct@student.umass.edu36_Sun, 1 Dec 1996 03:40:32 -0500 (EST)548_- Re: coping with Christmas My son is 8 and has a very hostile attitude towards Christmas & sometimes towards Christians, too. It's kind of alarming. Today a girl in his class started singing "Deck the Halls" and he told her to shut up. We've discussed respecting people, etc. & I think he is just angry about being in the minority. This in part, and with all the discussion on this list about experiences in school, has convinced us to definitely send him to a Hebrew day school next year. We are waiting to see what will happen in class. He [...] 87 70 20_Teaching Kids Hebrew0_21_joshua@cimatron.co.il36_Sun, 1 Dec 1996 03:42:20 -0500 (EST)618_- In regards to the thread about Hebrew language instruction, two comments from an American raising kids in Israel:

1. Hebrew is MUCH easier to learn than English. It is phonetic, so your kid's reading/writing vocabulary will catch up with their spoken/aural comprehension a lot, lot quicker than in English. My son can nibble his way through almost anything - including unvoweled newspaper columns - and can usually understand 70-90% of what he is reading by sound alone. He's a 2nd grader of average intelligence, who learned to read and write last year. His only prep came from his kindergarten teacher [...] 158 25 20_Re: Christmas Coping14_Robyn Kozierok16_robyn@ai.mit.edu36_Sun, 1 Dec 1996 03:48:36 -0500 (EST)435_- In article <199611240440.XAA20963@epix.net>, Irene Stern Friedman wrote: >Encourage him to respond to the myriad askings of "Is Santa bringing you >presents, were you good" with the proper "I am Jewish and I celebrate >Hannukah and my parents give me presents."

Better yet, "I am Jewish and we don't celebrate Christmas." No need to support the mistaken notion that Chanukah is the Jewish Christmas, IMO. [...] 184 21 21_bar/bat Mitsvah gifts13_beth schenker24_schenker@unlinfo.unl.edu36_Sun, 1 Dec 1996 03:49:51 -0500 (EST)391_- Does anyone have a suggestion for gifts for a bar and bat Mitsvah child. Each are members of our congregation but we don't know very well at all. Any help will be appreciated. Thanks. Beth



* This post reflects the author's opinion; the moderators' opinions may differ. * Posters seeking medical or halachic information should consult competent * authorities in those fields. 206 58 20_Re: Childrens' Names14_Bari Nirenberg18_nirenber@shani.net36_Sun, 1 Dec 1996 22:16:02 -0500 (EST)441_- alex speigel wrote: > > We are expecting our fourth child in the third week of > December. I would be interested in lists of Hebrew names > that are related to the season, but that sound good in > English. We don't know the gender. So far suggestions > include Nessa, Liora, Orli, but these are all girls names, > so have a 50% chance of not being useful. > > Are there any lists of names on the INternet? Any > suggestions? > Thanks [...] 265 61 20_Re: christmas coping3_L&S29_L&S@helping-hands.demon.co.uk36_Mon, 2 Dec 1996 09:02:44 -0500 (EST)608_- In article <01ICA035YCYQ9D594P@oitvms.oit.umass.edu>, rct@student.umass.edu writes >Re: coping with Christmas > My son is 8 and has a very hostile attitude towards Christmas & >sometimes towards Christians, too. It's kind of alarming. Today a girl in >his class started singing "Deck the Halls" and he told her to shut up. We've >discussed respecting people, etc. & I think he is just angry about being in >the minority. This in part, and with all the discussion on this list about >experiences in school, has convinced us to definitely send him to a Hebrew day >school next year. > We are waiting to [...] 327 28 21_Bar\Bat Mitzvah gifts19_Ilene S. Van Houter25_bk375@FreeNet.Buffalo.EDU36_Mon, 2 Dec 1996 09:02:48 -0500 (EST)436_- MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII From: "Ilene S. Van Houter" Subject: Bar\Bat Mitzvah gifts



Beth asked for suggestions for bar\bat mitzvah gifts:

Kiddush cup, talis clips, candle sticks, challah cover, mezuzah, chanukkiah (especially appropriate for this time of year), chumash, The Book of Jewish Wisdom, any book by Danny Siegal, tree certificates. [...] 356 33 14_Re: Havda-love0_18_SteffiKarp@aol.com36_Mon, 2 Dec 1996 10:55:03 -0500 (EST)517_- My youngest calls it Havdalove==probably from a misunderstanding when he was young, but I love the name because it is the time of all of us together and we sing for 10 minutes or more. ( a lot in a home of boys! ) Havdalah is the one time in a week when we give our kids chocolate -- for a sweet week, and they can pick it out that afternoon. (obviously, before Shabbat starts for some homes). Also, we use havdalah sets they've made and we've even made a Havdalah candle out of rolled beeswax. I would like a [...] 390 51 21_Coping with Christmas18_ADELE BRADY BOLSON26_102437.1612@CompuServe.COM36_Mon, 2 Dec 1996 14:55:22 -0500 (EST)567_- Re: coping with Christmas

Rachel T wrote:

>>My son is 8 and has a very hostile attitude towards Christmas & sometimes towards Christians, too. It's kind of alarming. Today a girl in his class started singing "Deck the Halls" and he told her to shut up. We've discussed respecting people, etc. & I think he is just angry about being in the minority. This in part, and with all the discussion on this list about experiences in school, has convinced us to definitely send him to a Hebrew day school next year. We are waiting to see what will happen [...] 442 34 19_Re: Nursing in shul14_Robyn Kozierok16_robyn@ai.mit.edu36_Mon, 2 Dec 1996 17:58:05 -0500 (EST)616_- In article <9611271251.ZM16830@noether.ibd.nrc.ca>, Hadass Eviatar wrote: }I've been thinking a lot about this apparent contradiction. This is just my }gut }(read: conditioning) speaking, so I need to think about it. I think what it }comes down to, for me, is the question of bodily functions during davvening. }Sophie said something about salivating during davvening, so why not nurse? }But }salivating is involuntary. OTOH, we take off our tallitot when we go to the }washroom. I guess I feel that while davvening, one should shut off the bodily }functions as much as possible. [...] 477 69 22_they just don't get it9_Dana Lear23_d.lear@cchs.usyd.edu.au36_Mon, 2 Dec 1996 18:00:36 -0500 (EST)496_- I'm not sure what I'm going to do with this, but I wrote it this morning in response to an exchange at my son's school. The actual incident was quite a bit worse than portrayed here. It's in the context of a national debate about multiculturalism we've been having in Australia since a new MP made a particularly inflammatory speech in August referring to Asian immigration and aid to Aboriginal Australians. Suggestions as to how I can add to it in a way that might be heard are welcome. [...] 547 66 32_Re: Nursing in shul & a question0_14_AlKeis@aol.com36_Mon, 2 Dec 1996 18:04:08 -0500 (EST)339_- Hi. For a couple of years prior to Yekira's birth we belonged to (and were actually active in) three shuls -- the reform temple where my husband, a non-Jew, felt most comfortable; the traditionally conservative shul that I liked; and the reconstructionist shul that gave me membership in lieu of payment for teaching Sunday School. [...] 614 66 20_Re: Childrens' Names21_Jennifer M . Paquette13_Jfer@myna.com36_Mon, 2 Dec 1996 18:06:21 -0500 (EST)370_- Oooh...Seasonal names! There are so many of them, actually!

Mattisyahu / Mattityahu (led the Jews against the Greek Syrians Yehuda (HaMaccabi) , his son Yochanan (first Kohen gadol in the rededicated Bais Hamikdash (Temple)) Yehudit / Yehudis, his daughter (heroine who killed enemy leader)

Yehoshua and Nitai (leaders of the Sanhedrin at the time) [...] 681 57 30_Day Schools vs. Public Schools10_Marc Davis15_mdavis@infi.net36_Mon, 2 Dec 1996 18:12:50 -0500 (EST)599_- MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII From: Marc Davis Subject:

Rachel:

I really feel for your situationw with your son. I can't give you real concerete answers because the decision to move your son to a day school is really your own.

I live in the bible belt of the south. The jewish community here is very small, but the good thing is the day school has been our haven. In my mind, children will do anything not to be different when they are young. They will try and become accepted and this may include gangs or drugs. It even [...] 739 25 25_Re: bar/bat Mitsvah gifts0_15_mrisman@aol.com36_Tue, 3 Dec 1996 00:56:25 -0500 (EST)391_- For the past few years our standard bat/bar mitzvah present has been a gift certificate to 1-800-JUDAISM, a mail-order Jewish book store (they also sell Judaica). It's a more focused gift than a check, but it allows the recipient to get something Jewish which is tailored to her/his interest. I vary the amount of the certificate depending on our relationship to the bat/bar mitzvah. [...] 765 23 33_Re: Children's Judaica on the Web10_Serge Adam17_sadam@pathcom.com36_Tue, 3 Dec 1996 01:41:19 -0500 (EST)425_- On 27 Nov 1996 17:24:28 GMT, robyn@ai.mit.edu (Robyn Kozierok) wrote:



> >Which ones do you have? We have Sammy Spider's First Hanukkah (BIG hit!)

Hang on to Sammy. Michael, my 5 yr old, still LOVES it.

* This post reflects the author's opinion; the moderators' opinions may differ. * Posters seeking medical or halachic information should consult competent * authorities in those fields. 789 28 25_Re: bar/bat Mitsvah gifts0_21_ericjac@ix.netcom.com36_Tue, 3 Dec 1996 01:41:21 -0500 (EST)275_- beth schenker wrote: > > Does anyone have a suggestion for gifts for a bar and bat Mitsvah > child. Each are members of our congregation but we don't know very > well at all. Any help will be appreciated. > Thanks. > Beth

How about bar/bat mitzvah planning software? 818 49 19_christmas at school0_21_rct@student.umass.edu36_Tue, 3 Dec 1996 10:12:34 -0500 (EST)564_- Hi everyone, Thanks for the positive information regarding my post on Christmas. Yesterday, at my son's afterschool, I got very upset over an activity. They were making Advent calenders with Christmas trees! (A christmas tree with the windows on it). My son had made his own window design Menorah with dreidels and the Israeli flag & all (what a good boy!) but I was so angry. So, I spoke to the head teacher and went through the formula conversation: Me: I want to know when you are doing Christian activities so that I can pull my son out of afterschool. [...] 868 37 25_Re: Bar\Bat Mitzvah gifts10_I. Pour-El18_pourel@iastate.edu36_Tue, 3 Dec 1996 10:16:12 -0500 (EST)603_- > >Beth asked for suggestions for bar\bat mitzvah gifts: > >Kiddush cup, talis clips, candle sticks, challah cover, mezuzah, >chanukkiah (especially appropriate for this time of year)... > NOT chanukkiah, at this time of year! We got married at this time of year and ended up with 6. Everyone had the same "great idea". Try less common stuff e.g. havdalah set (or just a fancy candle, I think Beth said she was looking for small gifts), Sukkot decorations, a Jewish cookbook with cultural or historical text interspersed, _How To Be a Perfect Stranger_, or (my favorite) a charitable donation in [...] 906 62 53_toddlers at shul was Re: Nursing in shul & a question16_Enid Yvonne Karr19_ekarr@ix.netcom.com36_Tue, 3 Dec 1996 12:38:22 -0500 (EST)479_- In <961128230438_1352915644@emout10.mail.aol.com> AlKeis@aol.com writes: How do you keep a toddler reasonably happy & in her >seat? Even though the members are tolerant & child-friendly, I don't fell >comfortable letting her roam (or vocalize) at will and it seems pointless to >come to shul & only be in the sanctuary for maybe 10-15 minutes in a two >hour >period. I know that this is a stage & it too will pass, but are there any >suggestions out there in the interim? [...] 969 51 46_One small battle won. (They just don't get it)12_naomi pardue19_npardue@indiana.edu36_Tue, 3 Dec 1996 12:45:21 -0500 (EST)596_- Got the December newsletter today for Shaina's preschool. Seems they are planning a "Holiday Social." The main event in the "Holiday Social" will be a play. The "Holiday" play is called "The Reindeer Christmas." Shaina plays a reindeer. I called the school. Said I was troubled by the play. Explained that I didn't see the need to have a Christmas play. (Remembering the Halloween party play that had nothing to do with Halloween...) Explaiend that while I recognized and accepted that there would be some Xmas-related events during the month, the play would be a really major part of the [...] 1021 34 29_Re: Crafts for Chanukah party0_15_coindad@aol.com36_Tue, 3 Dec 1996 12:46:30 -0500 (EST)553_- I'm also having a Chanukah party for my sons friends and my family. Age ranges are 2 4 month olds, 1 16 month old, 2 20 month olds, 2 3 /12 year olds, 3 five year olds, and 1 nine year old. These are the activities I have planned: 1) Edible Dreidels Marshmallows attached to the base of a hershey's kiss decorated around the sides with hebrew letters using food coloring 2) Making Menorahs popsicle sticks and paper towel dowels. ( wrap dowels in foil) pierce 9 times. glue "construction paper" flames to popsicle sticks and they can be inserted [...] 1056 61 18_Chanukkah Presents15_Marjorie Peskin24_mpeskin@lynx.dac.neu.edu36_Tue, 3 Dec 1996 14:15:23 -0500 (EST)653_- MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Marjorie Peskin Subject: Chanukkah Presents

I give my children 7 Chanukkah presents each year. One night is reserved for Tzedakah. Most of the presents are $5.00 and under. One present is a big one, in the $30 range. I try to keep it simple: Fimo clay, a rubber stamp, a book, little lego/playmobile people, etc. I really don't put much emphasis on the holiday, although we do decorate our house in grand tacky style (I love those metalic mylar decorations!) and we do hae many Hannukiahs that we light and place [...] 1118 27 33_Review: Jewish Items for Children7_trammie20_trammie@peace.ml.org36_Thu, 5 Dec 1996 17:04:54 -0500 (EST)531_- I have found these great items for Sabbath Dinner Setting, >Hanukkah Menorah and other Jewish items for children. I have given them away >as gifts and the children love them.

They are soft pillowy figures you can find them at:

http://www.kidstore.com/lts/pol/cultural.html

Ronny trammie@peace.ml.org





* This post reflects the author's opinion; the moderators' opinions may differ. * Posters seeking medical or halachic information should consult competent * authorities in those fields. 1146 35 22_Re: Chanukkah Presents0_21_joshua@cimatron.co.il36_Thu, 5 Dec 1996 17:14:04 -0500 (EST)393_- Marjorie Peskin wrote about gift-giving and Hanuka, specifically in relation/reaction to Xmas.

Well, there is a long-standing JEWISH tradition - independant of what other faiths do - of giving gifts and "gelt" on Hanuka. This goes back at least two centuries, maybe more, in Halachic texts (at least Ashkenazi sources). So let's just do our own thing. [...] 1182 65 22_Re: Chanukkah Presents9_J.F. Klau22_feldklau@earthlink.net36_Thu, 5 Dec 1996 17:14:08 -0500 (EST)675_- In article <199612031752.MAA20485@lynx.dac.neu.edu>, mpeskin@lynx.dac.neu.edu wrote:

> MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > From: Marjorie Peskin > Subject: Chanukkah Presents > [snip] > Last night I was reading the Boston Parent's Paper (they have it online > but I'm not sure of their URL) and there was an article about how to > make Hanukkah more 'meaningful' and less 'expensive'. I read the article > and it really angered me. It was encouraging parents not to give any > presents at all, and to do things like Tzedakah nights or Family Nights > instead. Frankly, I [...] 1248 50 21_Coping with Christmas15_Marjorie Peskin24_mpeskin@lynx.dac.neu.edu36_Thu, 5 Dec 1996 17:21:44 -0500 (EST)679_- MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Marjorie Peskin Subject: Coping with Christmas

Many people have responded to Rachael's post about the Xmas celebrations in her child's school with the same refrain: Send your child to Jewish Day School and all your problems will be solved.

Well, I DO send my children to a Conservative Jewish Day School. They're in their 3rd year at this school. They don't have ONE FRIEND that isn't Jewish. They don't even know people that aren't Jewish. Really! And they don't watch any commercial TV and very little PBS, so they have basically [...] 1299 32 23_Re: christmas at school13_Neil B. Baker21_bakern@accountant.net36_Thu, 5 Dec 1996 17:28:58 -0500 (EST)392_- On 3 Dec 1996 07:12:54 -0800, rct@student.umass.edu wrote:



>One of the schools is Lubavacher and one is non-affiliated. Anyone have >experience with Lubavacher schools? -Rachel T. > as a child from a secular family, i found myself in a lubavicher summer day camp. While the environment was foreign to me, the care and attention afforded me was always tender and loving. [...] 1332 68 16_multiculturalism18_ADELE BRADY BOLSON26_102437.1612@CompuServe.COM36_Thu, 5 Dec 1996 17:40:14 -0500 (EST)637_- Dana Lear wrote:

>>I suggested at the Parents and Citizens committee meeting that, as a non-Christian, I feel excluded when the school incorporates Christmas into its mainstream activities without also including celebrations from the other cultures represented at our school. That after an effusive initial welcome, maybe that's why other parents of other cultures, especially non-English speaking cultures, never seem to make more than a single appearance at the P&C. That as an articulate anglophone who likes these people, I'm willing to take the risk to try and bring this up on behalf of other families who may be too [...] 1401 41 30_SuggestionRe: Childrens' Names22_Janelle Bianca F. Keri21_keri.2@ohio-state.edu36_Thu, 5 Dec 1996 17:44:33 -0500 (EST)689_- If you go to one of the search engines, like http://www.stpt.com or any of the others...and type "hebrew names" or "jewish names" you will find several sites with such information. Also, if you just go to any sites on the web that have anything to do with Judiasm, Israel or anything like that..and just check the names of the people who contributed to the sites..ya can get a number of great ideas! Happy Hannukah!!! **************************************************************************** NOTE: CHANGE OF ADDRESSES FOR BELOW WEB PAGES: Janelle's Jumpin' Freebie Page http://members.tripod.com/~jkeri/janelle.htm Baby Freebies http://members.tripod.com/~jkeri/babyfreebies.htm [...] 1443 46 32_Re: Nursing in shul & a question9_K Goldman20_kgold@watson.ibm.com36_Thu, 5 Dec 1996 18:43:23 -0500 (EST)406_- AlKeis@aol.com writes: |> |> [snip] How do you keep a toddler reasonably happy & in her |> seat? Even though the members are tolerant & child-friendly, I don't feel |> comfortable letting her roam (or vocalize) at will and it seems pointless to |> come to shul & only be in the sanctuary for maybe 10-15 minutes in a two |> hour period. I know that this is a stage & it too will pass, but are there [...] 1490 69 23_Re: christmas at school12_r. bernstein16_rbernste@btg.com36_Fri, 6 Dec 1996 13:24:12 -0500 (EST)506_- rct@student.umass.edu wrote: > > Hi everyone, > Thanks for the positive information regarding my post on Christmas. > Yesterday, at my son's afterschool, I got very upset over an activity. They > were making Advent calenders with Christmas trees! (A christmas tree with the > windows on it). My son had made his own window design Menorah with dreidels > and the Israeli flag & all (what a good boy!) but I was so angry. So, I > spoke > to the head teacher and went through the formula conversation: [...] 1560 95 22_Re: Chanukkah Presents19_Shoshana L. Boublil25_toramada@netvision.net.il36_Fri, 6 Dec 1996 13:46:52 -0500 (EST)405_- I am writing from Israel, so of course things are different. I can understand your concerns in a basically christian society. I would like to comment on the trend of posts claiming that "Chanukkah is a minor holiday"

One big advantage for the Shomer Shabbat community is that Chanukkah is one holiday we can travel on. On the other hand you have to be home by sundown which is around 17:00. [...] 1656 113 39_SCJP submission: The Lights of Hanukkah18_William D. Ratnoff17_wratnof@emory.edu36_Fri, 6 Dec 1996 13:52:43 -0500 (EST)337_- Subject: The Lights of Hanukkah December 5, 1996 William D. Ratnoff (wratnof@emory.edu)

I am trying to answer our 3 1/2 year old daughter's request to have outdoor decorative lights on our house during Hanukkah. My wife, who thinks we should not put up any outdoor lights, has asked me to decide and to explain it to Anne. [...] 1770 54 23_Ignorance breeds hatred0_21_rct@student.umass.edu36_Sat, 7 Dec 1996 12:30:29 -0500 (EST)727_- MIME-version: 1.0 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT From: rct@student.umass.edu Subject: Ignorance breeds hatred

I disagree with R.Bernstein's comments that teaching about holidays in the school counters ignorance and therefore hatred. In fact, teaching about "all the different holidays" like Kwanzaa, Hanukah, etc. simply reinforces the "Christmas around the world" understanding that was mentioned in an earlier post. The school social studies curriculum can teach about cultures, when approriate. Learning about Chanuakah in DEcember does not reflect an understanding of Judaism. When my son made his "advent menorah" at the after school when everyone else was making trees, it encouraged a blending of Judaism [...] 1825 54 40_More on coping with the "holiday season"12_Cindy Harris16_cah@lonewolf.com36_Sat, 7 Dec 1996 19:34:59 -0500 (EST)563_- My daughters (7 and 10) attend a secular Montessori school. On Thursday one came home upset that the music teacher had introduced "Do You Hear What I Hear" as music to be learned by the whole class for the holiday performance next week. That same day my younger daughter excitedly reported that her non-Jewish teacher had lit a chanukiah at lunch time. I wrote notes the next morning to each teacher explaining my concerns and received a note back in the mail from the director today to the effect that they want to show respect to all faiths and cultures [...] 1880 44 56_Re: Starting Hebrew Lessons at Age Five: The Right Time?12_Cindy Harris16_cah@lonewolf.com36_Sun, 8 Dec 1996 02:37:09 -0500 (EST)371_- Howard Sage wrote: > > Our Alan goes to his once-a-month Torah class, a kind of introductionn to > various aspects of Judaism. I would like him to start his serious Hebrew > study next Spring (when he will be 4 1/2 or next Fall when he'll be five. > Is this roughly an appropriate age to begin? And how many classes per week > would be average? Thanks in advance. [...] 1925 74 27_Learning About the Holidays12_r. bernstein16_rbernste@btg.com36_Sun, 8 Dec 1996 02:37:11 -0500 (EST)383_- I've shared my thoughts on this once this week, but the more I think about it, the stronger I feel about it. So, I'd like to write a little more on the subject if everyone will bear with me. First I'd like to relate two conversations I had recently - one with a Catholic co-worker and one with my very religious, Jewish mother (and I mean that in every sense of the word). :) [...] 2000 100 31_Re: Learning About the Holidays5_Shari15_sfr2@hooked.net36_Mon, 9 Dec 1996 12:31:00 -0500 (EST)391_- Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: Shari Subject: Re: Learning About the Holidays

At 02:37 AM 12/8/96 -0500, risa bernstein wrote: >I've shared my thoughts on this once this week, but the more I think >about it, the stronger I feel about it. So, I'd like to write a little >more on the subject if everyone will bear with me. [...] 2101 48 22_The Lights of Hanukkah18_Bissell Tina Irene18_tbissell@umich.edu36_Mon, 9 Dec 1996 12:54:35 -0500 (EST)609_- MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII From: Bissell Tina Irene Subject: The Lights of Hanukkah

Perhaps the idea that "mommy is uncomfortable with outdoor lights because it is not a tradition she grew up with" should be reason enough, even for a 3 1/2 year old, to not have them.

On the other hand, in my parents' part of the world (suburbs of Chicago), I have seen many a Magen David in blue and white lights on doors, and even one roof, this time of year. Traditions have to start somewhere, sometime. The people who use outdoor lights in the [...] 2150 48 33_Crafts for Chanukah party: Thanks0_18_greenhou@erols.com36_Mon, 9 Dec 1996 14:36:07 -0500 (EST)595_- I want to thank everyone for their wonderful and inspiring suggestions. The party was yesterday and everyone had a wonderful time. Here's what we decided on: The parents contributed latkes, sweet kugels, applesauce and sour cream for refreshments.

For crafts, we made menorahs(hanukiahs ?) out of popsicle sticks and a block of wood. We found a length of smooth wood, 1.5 inches deep and about .75 inches high (by 6 feet long). My husband cut it into 9 inch lengths, and cut a slot along the top just the thickness of the popsicle sticks (coincidentally, they make saw blades that [...] 2199 175 26_Re: The Lights of Hanukkah11_Warren Levy15_warrenl@sco.COM37_Tue, 10 Dec 1996 00:31:04 -0500 (EST)371_- Bill Ratnoff wrote: > I am trying to answer our 3 1/2 year old daughter's request to have > outdoor decorative lights on our house during Hanukkah. My wife, who > thinks we should not put up any outdoor lights, has asked me to decide and > to explain it to Anne. <...> Anne now interprets the outdoor lights > she sees as a sign of a non-Jewish or Christian home. [...] 2375 122 27_Re: Ignorance breeds hatred12_Steve LaSala23_lasala@u.washington.edu37_Tue, 10 Dec 1996 00:31:06 -0500 (EST)710_- rct@student.umass.edu wrote: > >[elementary-school student makes "Jewish advent calendar" > > T: Well, do you not want him to do any other cultures? We celebrate > the Chinese New Year and Kwanzaa, and.... -----------------------------------------------

replied:

>[Catholic child-care provider asks about how to teach about Hanukah] > >[Elementary school does "everything" - Christmas, Hanukah, and Kwanza.] > >...for children to live a fully-integrated, culturally-rich life, they >need to be able to *learn* about other cultures and religions. > >I plan to expose my son to *all* religions and cultures. In fact, he's a >perfect candidate. He's adopted from Korea and [...] 2498 117 44_Re: More on coping with the "holiday season"21_Jennifer M . Paquette13_Jfer@myna.com37_Tue, 10 Dec 1996 00:31:08 -0500 (EST)603_- Overall, this is a GREAT idea: rather than jumping in when you take offence, pre-empt the schools and "the season" with your own POSITIVE suggestions!!!

>>make a list of things that are clearly appropriate for a secular >>school (i.e. singing "Jingle Bells" or making latkes),

Well, first of all, latkes brings us back to Chanukah, unless you're making them in July (which is not a bad idea; one of the most interesting "units" I ever had in Elementary School was a study of Japan and Japanese culture; I'm sure a well-educated teacher with lots of authorities to consult could put [...] 2616 54 27_Re: Ignorance breeds hatred12_naomi pardue19_npardue@indiana.edu37_Tue, 10 Dec 1996 09:50:24 -0500 (EST)648_- rct@student.umass.edu wrote: > I disagree with R.Bernstein's comments that teaching about holidays in the > school counters ignorance and therefore hatred. In fact, teaching about "all > the different holidays" like Kwanzaa, Hanukah, etc. simply reinforces the > "Christmas around the world" understanding that was mentioned in an earlier > post. The school social studies curriculum can teach about cultures, when > approriate. Learning about Chanuakah in DEcember does not reflect an > understanding of Judaism. When my son made his "advent menorah" at the after > school when everyone else was making trees, it encouraged a blending of > [...] 2671 139 44_Re: More on coping with the "holiday season"12_Cindy Harris16_cah@lonewolf.com37_Tue, 10 Dec 1996 12:58:07 -0500 (EST)552_- Jennifer M . Paquette wrote: > > >>make a list of things that are clearly appropriate for a secular > >>school (i.e. singing "Jingle Bells" or making latkes), > > Well, first of all, latkes brings us back to Chanukah, unless you're > making them in July (which is not a bad idea; one of the most > interesting "units" I ever had in Elementary School was a study of > Japan and Japanese culture; I'm sure a well-educated teacher with lots > of authorities to consult could put together a good curriculum for > studying Judaism and Jewish culture [...] 2811 65 28_Re: SCJ-PARENTING digest 32013_Newton Family17_msp@world.std.com37_Wed, 11 Dec 1996 13:59:07 -0500 (EST)633_- Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII From: Newton Family Subject: Re: SCJ-PARENTING digest 320

Regarding Bill Ratnoff's discussion on external lights to please his sweet little girl: This is a discussion on how our Hanukkah observance evolved, and how I now think we allowed it the slip into something to "make up" for not having Xmas, and also how I think Hanukkah in America has been shaped by Xmas. (You ask for our religious position: We are now Orthodox, but the past 12 years have been an evolution from Reform to Reconstructionist to Ortho). I, as you will see, think [...] 2877 84 30_Bill Ratnoff, chanukah lights.10_Marc Davis15_mdavis@infi.net37_Wed, 11 Dec 1996 14:01:03 -0500 (EST)512_- MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII From: Marc Davis Subject: Bill Ratnoff, chanukah lights.

Bill, I am coming from a position of a parent who has returned to judiasm. I returned through my children who are attending a jewish day school. My husband and I were not particulary observant when we first got married, but after moving to Virginia Beach, and living as a minority, we felt it was important to bring up our children so they don't feel outsiders. [...] 2962 64 22_More on Holiday Coping15_Marjorie Peskin24_mpeskin@lynx.dac.neu.edu37_Wed, 11 Dec 1996 14:02:18 -0500 (EST)653_- MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Marjorie Peskin Subject: More on Holiday Coping

I'd like to > make a list of things that are clearly appropriate for a secular > school (i.e. singing "Jingle Bells" or making latkes), things that are > clearly not appropriate (displaying a creche or lighting a chanukiah) and > things that are judgement calls (singing "Jolly Old St. Nicholas" or > making holiday decorations that might or might not be ornaments). Has > anyone else made a list like this or have any suggestions on what they > would put in which [...] 3027 51 31_Re: Learning About the Holidays8_Jane Fox18_JFOX@MACC.WISC.EDU37_Wed, 11 Dec 1996 14:04:20 -0500 (EST)605_- In <199612090353.TAA14617@mom.hooked.net> sfr2@hooked.net writes:

> And, in fact, if the schools want to teach > anything about Judaism, tell them to teach something central about it > and not to focus on a minor holiday. If you want to put together a 20 > minute presentation on Judaism, center it on Rosenzweig's star of redemption > imagery about the cycle of creation, revalation, redemption as tied to the > festival cycle of Passover (the creation of the Jewish people), Shavuot (the > revalation of the Torah) and the High Holy Days (redemption and tshuvah). > Of course, tie this to [...] 3079 50 31_Re: Learning About the Holidays17_David J. Grabiner32_grabiner@phnom-penh.berkeley.edu37_Wed, 11 Dec 1996 14:05:45 -0500 (EST)589_- In article <32A87CCE.610A@btg.com>, "r. bernstein" writes:

> And therein lies the key word - ***about***. As in "teach them > ***about*** other religions and cultures. NOT "teach them religion" but > teach them ***about*** religion. I think this is an extremely important > point that is being missed by many well-intentioned people who write > here. What the schools are doing is teaching the children about all the > different religions there are in the world. Think of it as a history > lesson. They are not saying to the children - Today, we will worship > Jesus Christ. [...] 3130 49 26_Re: More on Holiday Coping12_naomi pardue19_npardue@indiana.edu37_Thu, 12 Dec 1996 08:38:04 -0500 (EST)583_- Marjorie Peskin (mpeskin@lynx.dac.neu.edu) wrote: > > I think this a fabulous idea. I think we could put together a list or > even a booklet of things that are appropriated for seasonal celebrations > in a secular school, and with that could be a list of no-no's, and the > reason's why. > > For example, under acceptable, I'd say dreidls, sufganiyot, latkes, > showing (but NOT lighting a hanukiah) and singing Sivivon, sov sov sov > to describe Hanukah. > > And for Xmas, making snowmen, decorating sleds and having a sled parade, > making snowflakes, baking and decorating [...] 3180 41 34_Re: Bill Ratnoff, chanukah lights.0_21_joshua@cimatron.co.il37_Thu, 12 Dec 1996 13:39:29 -0500 (EST)572_- Regarding public displays on Hanukah,

This is another instance (along with gift-giving) where what others are doing throws us off our own track. In the case of gift giving, we have our own tradition of giving gifts going back at least a few hundred years in the Halacha.

In the case of outdoor display - that is the essence of the laws about the Hanukiah. The Hanukah lamps must be large enough to burn from sundown until passersby cease in the streets, the menorah must be placed not higher that 20 cubits so that it remains visible, etc. The notion [...] 3222 119 27_In those days, at this time0_21_joshua@cimatron.co.il37_Thu, 12 Dec 1996 13:41:50 -0500 (EST)596_- Is it a coincidence - or did the recounting of the Hanukah story triggered the recent postings on multiculturalism? Then, as now, the Jews are faced with an alien culture that is progressive and open. What shall be our response?

Let’s correct a common error. The choice was never between locking ourselves in a ghetto, or participating in society. The head of the Sanhedrin - the defender of traditional Judaism at the time of the Maccabees - was named Antigonos, and several of the Maccabee generals and kings had Greek names. Antigonos was not the only sage conversant with Greek [...] 3342 39 14_Secular themes0_14_AlKeis@aol.com37_Thu, 12 Dec 1996 13:45:44 -0500 (EST)531_- In a message dated 96-12-12 05:50:12 EST, Marjorie wrote:

<< under acceptable, I'd say dreidls, sufganiyot, latkes, showing (but NOT lighting a hanukiah) and singing Sivivon, sov sov sov to describe Hanukah.

And for Xmas, making snowmen, decorating sleds and having a sled parade, making snowflakes, baking and decorating cookies.

And for no-no's, .... Santa Claus is coming, etc. Also, no Santa decorations, no trees, wreaths, or tree decorations. Why trees aren't secular. Why Santa isn't secular. >> [...] 3382 74 31_Re: Learning About the Holidays12_Steve LaSala23_lasala@u.washington.edu37_Thu, 12 Dec 1996 13:48:43 -0500 (EST)688_- In article <58i1e2$2sh4@news.doit.wisc.edu>, Jane Fox wrote: >In <199612090353.TAA14617@mom.hooked.net> sfr2@hooked.net writes:

>>And, in fact, if the schools want to teach anything about Judaism, tell >>them to teach something central about it and not to focus on a minor >>holiday.

>One of the cultural differences between Judaism and modern Christianity is that >Judaism has a lot of holidays and Christianity as mainly practiced in >the US today does not. Most Christians in the US today have Christmas and Easter >and that's about it. (No more Michaelmas and first Sunday in Trinity and all >those mysterious days on the calendar of Barbara [...] 3457 48 58_Your favorite Hebrew learning software, gnmaes? (K plus..)17_L. Joseph Bachman25_jbachman@access.digex.net37_Thu, 12 Dec 1996 14:11:44 -0500 (EST)530_- We have decided that it's time to start supplementing our 5-year old daughter's Hebrew instruction. She's in Kindergartern, reads English at a higher level, and we'd like to start working on the Hebrew. One of the ways she got into reading English was by messing around on the computer, so now we're looking for suitable software or games that will do the same for her Hebrew skills. We'd be particulary interested in peoples' actual experience in using the software. Some of the things we would like the software to have: [...] 3506 71 25_Where do we go from here?12_Ron Kritzman12_ronk@ais.net37_Thu, 12 Dec 1996 14:11:47 -0500 (EST)558_- *Moderator's Note: When responding to this post, please remember to keep your focus on raising children in a Jewish context. Thank you.

r. bernstein wrote:

> My co-worker's 3 1/2 year old daughter just started pre-school. He said > that he was giving Hannah a bath and she said something that *sounded* > like Hanukah. He looked at her and said "What did you say???" And she > said it again, and this time he said "Did you say Hanukah? And she said > yes and then started singing a song in Hebrew that she'd learned at her > pre-school! [...] 3578 61 22_Re: Chanukkah Presents14_Bari Nirenberg18_nirenber@shani.net37_Thu, 12 Dec 1996 14:11:55 -0500 (EST)572_- I, too, am writing from Israel. I noticed that in her post, Shoshana did not mention anything about gift giving. This did not surprise me, as here in Israel, gift giving is not generally a big part of Chanukkah. In fact, in our family, we do not give gifts (although we traditionally give chocolate and other candies to the children). What we DO do is eat all kinds of fattening fried food (latkes and sufganiot, as Shoshana mentioned). Every school and kindergarten, religious and secular, makes a big deal out of Chanukkah and, of course, schools are out for the [...] 3640 48 19_Meaning of Chanukah10_I. Pour-El18_pourel@iastate.edu37_Thu, 12 Dec 1996 14:37:52 -0500 (EST)503_- The two opinions of Chanukah that have been expressed on this list seem to be:

1. It is a minor Jewish holiday worked up into a Xmas surrogate.

2. It is a Jewish celebration of freedom to worship.

I have recently heard a third and to me, most likely view, that is the Macabees were fighting assimilationist Jews as well as other groups and in no way was religious freedom or tolerance part of their creed. In other words, their motto was "our way is the only correct way..." [...] 3689 60 26_Re: The Lights of Hanukkah12_Cindy Harris16_cah@lonewolf.com37_Thu, 12 Dec 1996 23:16:28 -0500 (EST)340_- William D. Ratnoff wrote: > > I am planning to explain to Anne that we Jews don't put up outdoor lights > for Hanukkah. I will say that, instead, the idea is for the light from > the menorah to go out from our home, through the window, so that people > outside can see the glow of the Hanukkah candles coming from inside our > home. [...] 3750 56 29_Re: Where do we go from here?14_Gordon Drukier34_drukier@pegasus2.astro.indiana.edu37_Fri, 13 Dec 1996 08:21:14 -0500 (EST)636_- In article <32AAFB89.37ED@ais.net>, Ron Kritzman wrote:

> >(ROFL) Ours were Kaplan one year and Shapiro another. >Anybody remember the Bell System movies? There was one about the >meaning of Chirstmas I remember from 2nd grade. > [snip]

>The real damage, I now see, is that non-Jews and Jews with no religious >education have come to see Christianity as "regular" - just as New >Yorkers >think 'regular' coffee means with cream and sugar. This can be >dangerous. >Think about the last time you installed a program. If it was something >you know nothing about, you always accepted the default values. [...] 3807 77 27_Religions in Public Schools15_Marjorie Peskin24_mpeskin@lynx.dac.neu.edu37_Fri, 13 Dec 1996 13:50:13 -0500 (EST)328_- People questioned why I said that sufganiyot and Chanukiah's would be OK symbols for public schools while other Xtain symbols wouldn't be. I based my thinking on the difference between the Hanukah mitzvot and the Hanukah minhags. I think the minhag of spinning dreidls is just fine but that lighting the Hanukiah is not. [...] 3885 58 15_Hannukah lights14_Hadass Eviatar26_eviatar@noether.ibd.nrc.ca37_Fri, 13 Dec 1996 16:45:37 -0500 (EST)533_- My little guy is only nine months old, so I may yet eat these words, but this is what we are planning to do. We are egalitarian traditional Conservative (which means that I wear tallit and tefillin when I davven Shacharit on weekdays! 8-)).

We will *not* put up lights of any kind. Xmas lights are very big in Winnipeg, and AFAIK no Jews put them up at all. So at least we should have the support of "none of your Jewish friends' parents put them up, either". We are planning to send him to a Jewish preschool and then [...] 3944 56 12_our Chanukah9_Dana Lear23_d.lear@cchs.usyd.edu.au37_Sat, 14 Dec 1996 17:32:22 -0500 (EST)513_- We had a lovely Chanukah, focused on candles, dreidel playing and singing. This is what we did for presents: Night 1: I gave Max (8.5) a wetsuit (purchased in October at a going out of business sale) and he gave me a homemade card. Night 2: no present Night 3: Ken Done boxer shorts decorated with koalas, Night 4: we gave. Night 5: No present Night 6: a stool to sit on (too small and has to go back) Night 7: a book of puzzles to do on the plane (He's going to the States for summer vacation on Sunday.) [...] 4001 48 62_Re: Your favorite Hebrew learning software, gnmaes? (K plus..)14_Aaron D. Gross13_adg@pobox.com37_Sat, 14 Dec 1996 17:36:38 -0500 (EST)598_- jbachman@access.digex.net (L. Joseph Bachman) wrote:

>We have decided that it's time to start supplementing our 5-year old >daughter's Hebrew instruction. She's in Kindergartern, reads English at >a higher level, and we'd like to start working on the Hebrew. One of the >ways she got into reading English was by messing around on the computer, >so now we're looking for suitable software or games that will do the same >for her Hebrew skills. We'd be particulary interested in peoples' actual >experience in using the software. Some of the things we would like the >software to have: [...] 4050 44 30_Re: Pagan vs. Xtian symbols...0_16_JRomjrom@aol.com37_Sun, 15 Dec 1996 22:38:56 -0500 (EST)391_- In a message dated 96-12-14 00:03:48 EST, you write:

<< People questioned why I said that sufganiyot and Chanukiah's would be OK symbols for public schools while other Xtain symbols wouldn't be. I based my thinking on the difference between the Hanukah mitzvot and the Hanukah minhags. I think the minhag of spinning dreidls is just fine but that lighting the Hanukiah is not. [...] 4095 19 30_Re: Book title=Molly's Pilgrim0_18_SteffiKarp@aol.com37_Sun, 15 Dec 1996 22:38:56 -0500 (EST)421_- The book referred to is Molly's Pilgrim by Barbara Cohen. It makes a positive connection between Thanksgiving pilgrims and Jewish immigrants--all immigrants, for that matter. Good 2nd & 3rd grade reading. --Steffi Aronson Karp

* This post reflects the author's opinion; the moderators' opinions may differ. * Posters seeking medical or halachic information should consult competent * authorities in those fields. 4115 24 47_Re: SCJ-PARENTING digest 311/Hebrew instruction0_18_SteffiKarp@aol.com37_Sun, 15 Dec 1996 22:40:04 -0500 (EST)490_- I am a firm believer in *music, music, music* for teaching Hebrew. The more Hebrew songs a child learns, the more s/he will retain. Our kids can sing their way through services, even for words they would have difficulty sounding out from written Hebrew. Uncle Moishy is great for the young ones, as is Jeff Klepper's growin' I cassette. As they get older, they can get into Shlock Rock, Safam, Debbie Friedman and Kol B'seder. Much of my Hebrew comprehension comes from music. --sak [...] 4140 53 31_Re: Religions in Public Schools15_covington maiko27_mcovingt@coewl.cen.uiuc.edu37_Mon, 16 Dec 1996 04:35:57 -0500 (EST)391_- Marjorie Peskin writes:

>People questioned why I said that sufganiyot and Chanukiah's would be OK >symbols for public schools while other Xtain symbols wouldn't be. I >based my thinking on the difference between the Hanukah mitzvot and the >Hanukah minhags. I think the minhag of spinning dreidls is just fine but >that lighting the Hanukiah is not. [...] 4194 25 34_Re: Bill Ratnoff, chanukah lights.20_Irene Stern Friedman13_lexf@epix.net37_Mon, 16 Dec 1996 04:36:00 -0500 (EST)365_- Just as "There's No Such Thing as a Hannukah Bush," so too external lights are not for Hannukah, they reek of Christmas. As an alternative, perhaps you could string lights around your Succah in the fall. Then your children will have the fun of lights for a Jewish holiday which calls for decorations outdoors at a time when the Christians aren't decorating. [...] 4220 104 31_Re: Learning About the Holidays10_David Karr13_dkarr@bbn.com37_Mon, 16 Dec 1996 04:36:04 -0500 (EST)387_- In article <32A87CCE.610A@btg.com>, r. bernstein wrote: >My co-worker's 3 1/2 year old daughter just started pre-school. He said >that he was giving Hannah a bath and she said something that *sounded* >like Hanukah. [...] He told her to sing more and thought - what >a wonderful school that is willing to teach the children about *all* >religions and cultures. [...] 4325 33 12_Jewish music19_Ilene S. Van Houter25_bk375@FreeNet.Buffalo.EDU37_Mon, 16 Dec 1996 12:43:27 -0500 (EST)660_- MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII From: "Ilene S. Van Houter" Subject: Jewish music



Steffi Karp suggests Schlock Rock for kids. I think it should be a standard part of the curriculum. My boys have (sadly) learned more from their Schlock Rock tapes than they have from Hebrew School. Thanks to Lenny Solomon and the Schlockers both of them can *sing* you the biographies of Rashi and Rambam to the tunes of "Windy" and "Help Me Rhonda", respectively. Their autographed picture hangs in each of the children's bedroom and the "best Chanukah present ever" we were told were the tickets [...] 4359 30 35_Re: Purchasing Jewish Books & Music0_18_SteffiKarp@aol.com37_Mon, 16 Dec 1996 14:45:22 -0500 (EST)617_- I keep writing in to update Jewish book and music information because I used to own a business called Tree of Life Book Club which offered Jewish books, music, videos etc. to religious school students and their families. Although no longer published, I am still rather up-to-date on these issues, writing book/music reviews for mags, and am happy to help any of you with recommendations. I can also recommend where to find various items. Generally, an excellent selection of music is available from Tara Publications in New York. (800-number listed at 800-555-1212) Videos are harder to track down than books. [...] 4390 32 46_Re: SCJ-PARENTING digest 331/ music & learning0_16_JRomjrom@aol.com37_Mon, 16 Dec 1996 14:46:24 -0500 (EST)550_- In a message dated 96-12-16 00:08:05 EST, you write:

<< I am a firm believer in *music, music, music* for teaching Hebrew. The more Hebrew songs a child learns, the more s/he will retain. Our kids can sing their way through services, even for words they would have difficulty sounding out from written Hebrew. Uncle Moishy is great for the young ones, as is Jeff Klepper's growin' I cassette. As they get older, they can get into Shlock Rock, Safam, Debbie Friedman and Kol B'seder. Much of my Hebrew comprehension comes from music. >> [...] 4423 53 59_Teaching ABOUT religion was Re: Learning About the Holidays16_Enid Yvonne Karr19_ekarr@ix.netcom.com37_Mon, 16 Dec 1996 17:43:09 -0500 (EST)654_- In <199612111718.MAA07546@raspberry.bbn.com> David Karr writes:

{Lots of well written stuff snipped} > >In summary, teaching *about* various cultures is one thing (and a good >idea, in my opinion); teaching some cultures as normative behavior >(i.e., "this is how people should act") is something altogether >different. To be sure, peer pressure can easily counteract the >teaching of normative behavior in school, so perhaps if you have a >Jewish neighborhood the kids can just laugh off any Christmas things >in school. My impression is most of the problems are arising in >settings where there are relatively few Jews. > [...] 4477 70 28_Re: SCJ-PARENTING digest 33216_Richard Schachet20_lvrabbi@accessnv.com37_Tue, 17 Dec 1996 12:58:01 -0500 (EST)521_- The following letter was sent to all the parents of a local school by the Principal:

December 13, 1996

Dear Parents,

Again the Yuletide is upon us and soon families across the nation will be celebrating this joyful event.

In my youth, and even today, I look upon Christmas as goodwill and compassion, fireplace and candlelight, a family time, a time for worship, the glow on a child's face, but most of all it is a story of a love which began centuries ago and spread to all the world. [...] 4548 85 31_Re: Religions in Public Schools12_naomi pardue19_npardue@indiana.edu37_Tue, 17 Dec 1996 23:58:18 -0500 (EST)388_- Marjorie Peskin (mpeskin@lynx.dac.neu.edu) wrote: > People questioned why I said that sufganiyot and Chanukiah's would be OK > symbols for public schools while other Xtain symbols wouldn't be. I > based my thinking on the difference between the Hanukah mitzvot and the > Hanukah minhags. I think the minhag of spinning dreidls is just fine but > that lighting the Hanukiah is not. [...] 4634 33 18_Hebrew instruction16_Meredith Warshaw17_mwarshaw@tiac.net37_Wed, 18 Dec 1996 06:22:08 -0500 (EST)515_- SteffiKarp@aol.com writes: <> [...] 4668 56 35_Enid's post re:celebrating holidays10_Marc Davis15_mdavis@infi.net37_Wed, 18 Dec 1996 07:16:01 -0500 (EST)362_- MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII From: Marc Davis Subject: Enid's post re:celebrating holidays

Enid, you make a good point about studying holidays at times when the holidays are not being celebrated, but working in a secular school, and having my kids a day school, I don't quite know if it is doable. [...] 4725 77 31_Re: Religions in Public Schools10_David Karr13_dkarr@bbn.com37_Wed, 18 Dec 1996 14:40:12 -0500 (EST)577_- // The following is a submission to the newsgroup soc.culture.jewish.parenting

naomi pardue wrote: >1. Clearly religious. (And no place at all in a public school.) [...] >2. Holiday oriented, but religious only or primarily due to their >presence as part of the holiday celebration. [...] >These are all best avoided. If present at all, must be done fairly and >evenly, and never as a major part of the curriculum. [...] >3. Purely seasonal, and, while often viewed in connection with the >December holidays, has no direct connection. [...] [...] 4803 127 39_Re: Enid's post re:celebrating holidays16_Enid Yvonne Karr19_ekarr@ix.netcom.com37_Wed, 18 Dec 1996 15:28:24 -0500 (EST)502_- In writes: > >Enid, you make a good point about studying holidays at times when the >holidays are not being celebrated, but working in a secular school, and >having my kids a day school, I don't quite know if it is doable. > Thanks, it's good to hear the professional's point of view. I TRY to put myself in my kids teachers/primcipals place, but I have no direct knowledge of quite what challenges they face. [...] 4931 60 63_Re: Teaching ABOUT religion was Re: Learning About the Holidays12_r. bernstein16_rbernste@btg.com37_Wed, 18 Dec 1996 17:18:38 -0500 (EST)575_- Enid Yvonne Karr wrote:

> I too feel very strongly that schools should only teach 'about > religion'. One of the ideas I have recently been thinking about > is to divorce this teaching from the calendar. I feel that if > we teach ABOUT the different religions at a time when holiday > observances are not occurring, there is much less chance of > problems. For instance, teachers could fit this into their > curricula whenever it suits their scheduling. They could teach > what the religions are about, and even how the different holidays > are celebrated, in, [...] 4992 50 28_Re: SCJ-PARENTING digest 3328_Jane Fox18_JFOX@MACC.WISC.EDU37_Wed, 18 Dec 1996 19:51:13 -0500 (EST)558_- This letter is so inappropriate that I wonder what else is going on. Also, did any Christian parents point out that it was wrong? Jewish parents? I am assuming that the principal sent the letter via the school or on school letterhead. But even if it was sent as a personal Christmas card, using the school mailing list would be wrong. Parents might want to pay attention to what else is going on at this school. And parents can help even first graders to learn that sometimes teachers and principals are wrong and, "If your teacher tells you Jesus is [...] 5043 26 23_Religion in the Schools0_24_rkayton@acsu.buffalo.edu37_Wed, 18 Dec 1996 20:13:53 -0500 (EST)451_- Some of the postings seem to imply that religion should be left out of the schools entirely. I think that the schools SHOULD include religion within the curriculum and try awfully hard to delete the PRACTICE of religion. The problem seems to be that the majority want to CELEBRATE Christmas and don't understand that celebration and practice are the same thing. Besides so many folks seem to think that Christmas is cultural and not religious. [...] 5070 61 25_Xmas Letters from Schools14_Andrea Herrera15_andreah@utj.org37_Wed, 18 Dec 1996 22:39:58 -0500 (EST)575_- > The following letter was sent to all the parents of a local school > by the Principal:

(Letter snipped)

Not only does a local Federation make a difference but parents do too. A few years back there were about 5 Jewish kids in our local elementry school. Our neighborhood has grown much, and we now have over 50 Jewish households, which means there are many more Jewish children in the school. Last year the parents organized and spoke with the principal of our school on a number of ocassions. We expressed our concerns about the overt display of both [...] 5132 29 34_Re: Bill Ratnoff, chanukah lights.18_Robert L Russakoff18_rlr@GDEsystems.COM37_Thu, 19 Dec 1996 09:25:50 -0500 (EST)459_- In article <199612122100.QAA16243@epix.net>, Irene Stern Friedman wrote: :Just as "There's No Such Thing as a Hannukah Bush," so too external lights :are not for Hannukah, they reek of Christmas. As an alternative, perhaps :you could string lights around your Succah in the fall. Then your children :will have the fun of lights for a Jewish holiday which calls for :decorations outdoors at a time when the Christians aren't decorating. [...] 5162 50 28_Re: SCJ-PARENTING digest 33410_Marc Davis15_mdavis@infi.net37_Thu, 19 Dec 1996 13:53:07 -0500 (EST)693_- MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Marc Davis Subject: Re: SCJ-PARENTING digest 334

Penned by scj-parenting@shamash.org: >





> > However, using this argument one would easily argue that the dreydal is > religious, since th letters on its side refer to a miracle, and we play > dreydal becuase it was historically played by students to > hide the fact that they were > studying their religion. This definitely is AT LEAST as religious as a > decorated tree, which, (assuming that the decorations on it don't include > religious symbols), has no direct religious meaning beyond [...] 5213 64 31_Re: Religions in Public Schools4_dick12_dick@bgs.com37_Thu, 19 Dec 1996 13:54:08 -0500 (EST)460_- MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: dick Subject: Re: Religions in Public Schools

naomi pardue (npardue@indiana.edu) wrote: > However, using this argument one would easily argue that the dreydal is= =

> religious, since th letters on its side refer to a miracle, and we play= =

> dreydal becuase it was historically played by students to = [...] 5278 61 39_Re: Enid's post re:celebrating holidays16_Meredith Warshaw17_mwarshaw@tiac.net37_Thu, 19 Dec 1996 13:56:16 -0500 (EST)538_- That is why I'm so happy that at my office we have changed the "gift giving" party to one where we all give to those in need. This year we are donating presents and money to the local Ronald McDonald house (they provide a place to stay for families who have a child receiving cancer treatment, and are found all over the country). They had a wish list, all of which were things _for_the_facility_ and not "Xmas gifts". We have all found that we get much more pleasure out of this than out of the more traditional office party gift [...] 5340 47 22_Re: Christmas Cultural10_Marc Davis15_mdavis@infi.net37_Fri, 20 Dec 1996 00:26:13 -0500 (EST)481_- MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Marc Davis Subject: Re: SCJ-PARENTING digest 335

> curriculum and try awfully hard to delete the PRACTICE of religion. The > problem seems to be that the majority want to CELEBRATE Christmas and don't > understand that celebration and practice are the same thing. > Besides so many folks seem to think that Christmas is cultural and not > religious. [...] 5388 28 27_Re: Religion in the Schools25_131X40000-ChazinDDR32471629_dchazin@bighorn.dr.lucent.com37_Fri, 20 Dec 1996 10:25:26 -0500 (EST)568_- I have been following these threads about Xmas in the schools with much amusement, even though I was less than amused when I found out that my daughters special ed class was going to take her Xmas shopping for the day (but thats another story). The discussion on this group seems to focus on Xmas being a religious holiday and in that context what goes on in the schools is intolerable. However the real problem is that MOST americans view Xmas as a non-religous event much like thanksgiving or halloween (although on a much larger scale). In this context what [...] 5417 45 42_Re: SCJ-PARENTING digest 336/ xmas shmxmas0_16_JRomjrom@aol.com37_Sat, 21 Dec 1996 22:06:14 -0500 (EST)567_- [Moderator note: This post is beginning to stray into waters not covered under the scjp charter. Please confine your replies to how this subject affects parenting a jewish child.]









In a message dated 96-12-20 00:05:35 EST, you write:

<< On the other hand, when jewish child learns about christmas, they are going into something completely foreign to all jewish beliefs. We can't say that the birth of Jesus is part of our religion. This is why many of us feel threatened when christmas is taught in the schools. >> [...] 5463 83 28_Re: SCJ-PARENTING digest 33410_Marc Davis15_mdavis@infi.net37_Sun, 22 Dec 1996 01:02:18 -0500 (EST)373_- MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Marc Davis Subject: Re: SCJ-PARENTING digest 334

> Thanks, it's good to hear the professional's point of > view. I TRY to put myself in my kids > teachers/primcipals place, but I have no direct > knowledge of quite what challenges they face. [...] 5547 81 49_Re: Hanukah in Schools (SCJ-PARENTING digest 336)0_35_Dale.Rosenberg@st1.frbny.sprint.com37_Mon, 23 Dec 1996 14:09:33 -0500 (EST)538_- --it9dUafnYBTmpx2546FyFxJPjjOEDWt7 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"





Sharon Davis said:

"I think what we need to separate here is this: When christian children bring home chanukiot or dreidels, they are learning about their roots in religion.

The don't have to give up any beliefs when they learn chanukah. Although they don't put much stock in the old testament, they still don't need to make any big differences in what they believe because this is part of the christian history." [...] 5629 82 26_Christmas in public school10_David Karr13_dkarr@bbn.com37_Mon, 23 Dec 1996 14:10:25 -0500 (EST)627_- Sharon Davis wrote: >I think what we need to separate here is this: When christian children >bring home chanukiot or dreidels, they are learning about their roots in >religion. The don't have to give up any beliefs when they learn chanukah.

Actually, as far as I understand it the current practices surrounding chanukiot and dreydels *are* completely foreign to Christianity. Does this mean giving up beliefs? Perhaps it would be better to reserve judgment until we find out what all those beliefs are. Some Christians might be surprised to learn that celebrating Christmas means "giving up" a belief rather than [...] 5712 46 16_December Dilemma14_Robyn Kozierok16_robyn@ai.mit.edu37_Mon, 23 Dec 1996 15:33:20 -0500 (EST)550_- In article <199612190313.WAA02664@larry.infi.net>, Marc Davis wrote: >> I've said it before and I'll say it again - my Jewish mother said it >> best - do unto others and let's live and get along with each other - >> it's not too much to ask, is it?

>I know Enid did not post this, but I think this says it all. This time of >the year is so emotional for christians, it is the heart of their religion. >I don't expect any flack when I talk about Rosh Hashana and the teshuva >period from my christian friends. Think of [...] 5759 34 21_Messianic "preaching"4_IlyF12_ilyf@aol.com37_Mon, 23 Dec 1996 15:34:16 -0500 (EST)537_- Here's the scenerio... My son and I were playing in the living room when a customer of mine came over to pick up a shirt ( I was expecting him). My business is judaic embroidery. He orginally got my business card from a show I did at the local Jewish community Center. Everytime we spoke, he began the conversation with shalom and ended it with shalom. He pointed out that he would not come on Saturday until after the sundown so as not to distrub my Shabbat. We' re standing there chatting about the shirt with my son sitting by [...] 5794 24 20_patterns for kippot?11_Sum Dum Goy24_edutton@worldnet.att.net37_Tue, 24 Dec 1996 15:21:07 -0500 (EST)408_- Does anyone have, or can you point me to, a kippah pattern (sewn, *not* knitted) that might be suitable for a Sunday school project?

Thanks in advance!

B'shalom, Erik edutton@worldnet.att.net



* This post reflects the author's opinion; the moderators' opinions may differ. * Posters seeking medical or halachic information should consult competent * authorities in those fields. 5819 45 30_Re: Christmas in public school14_Robyn Kozierok16_robyn@ai.mit.edu37_Wed, 25 Dec 1996 23:29:53 -0500 (EST)614_- In article <199612201725.MAA05534@raspberry.bbn.com>, David Karr wrote: >One thing I would like to see, though, is that a "holiday" booklet >*not* be a Jewish ultimatum, but rather would impress its reader with >a sensitivity to all sides of the issue. One reason for this is that >to be effective, we not only have to be *right*, but we also have to >make certain ideas understood and accepted by people who aren't >particularly inclined to understand and accept them. I'd like people >who sincerely want to be "inclusive," and have therefore gone to the >trouble of digging up a couple of [...] 5865 34 31_Submission--Booklet for Schools18_ADELE BRADY BOLSON26_102437.1612@CompuServe.COM37_Thu, 26 Dec 1996 23:37:14 -0500 (EST)558_- David Karr wrote

>>One thing I would like to see, though, is that a "holiday" booklet *not* be a Jewish ultimatum, but rather would impress its reader with a sensitivity to all sides of the issue.<<

This is a marvelous idea, and I would like to suggest it be taken a step further. It could discuss all the areas that so often cause conflicts at school: Why we need days off for certain holidays, when the holidays begin, what we do on those holidays (why can't your child get a full day's homework done on Yom Kippur--after all they had [...] 5900 47 27_Re: Religion in the Schools19_Shoshana L. Boublil25_toramada@netvision.net.il37_Thu, 26 Dec 1996 23:37:16 -0500 (EST)470_- Following the various threads discussing xmas in the school system I was struck by how much they reminded me of how we, here in Israel, celebrate Purim, in yeshivot, ulpanot and other religious elementary and high schools.

The festivities begin on Rosh Chodesh Adar (Adar 1) when "Rav Purim" or "Rabbanit Purim" are selected and ascend their "throne". The student body more-or-less takes over the school for the following 2 weeks - culminating with Purim. [...] 5948 38 21_Submission--Messianic18_ADELE BRADY BOLSON26_102437.1612@CompuServe.COM37_Thu, 26 Dec 1996 23:37:20 -0500 (EST)526_- << out of no where the man starts explaining to me that he is messianic and has just a little bit of material he wishes me to read. In my living room, with my son, sitting there watching, he starts telling me about why his point of view makes more sense then mine. He tells me that JC is the natural way to truly be Jewish. He tells me that if I truly read Biblical text...I'd believe too. Then, thankfully, my husband came upstairs and the conversation died. What is it that makes people preach to you when its pretty [...] 5987 78 19_Booklet for schools6_Fraade20_Fraade@ix.netcom.com37_Sun, 29 Dec 1996 21:41:07 -0500 (EST)629_- MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Fraade Subject: Booklet for schools

> > This is a marvelous idea, and I would like to suggest it be taken a step > further. It could discuss all the areas that so often cause conflicts at > school: Why we need days off for certain holidays, when the holidays begin, > what we do on those holidays (why can't your child get a full day's homework > done on Yom Kippur--after all they had all day!), shabbat observance, > scheduling school events on holidays (including why not late afternoon or [...] 6066 28 31_Re: Religions in Public Schools8_Rechtman16_rechtman@aol.com37_Mon, 30 Dec 1996 11:36:41 -0500 (EST)376_- I believe the best reply to this approach is: EDUCATE but DON'T CELEBRATE: Schools - especially public ones are for education; Celebration was only a modern add on in homogenous situations (or at least assumed homogenous: where other religiouns are ignored).

However, if we stick to EDUCATION in PSs, celebration at home will be more informed and better suited. [...] 6095 45 19_patterns for kippot19_Ilene S. Van Houter25_bk375@FreeNet.Buffalo.EDU37_Mon, 30 Dec 1996 13:24:16 -0500 (EST)630_- MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII From: "Ilene S. Van Houter" Subject: patterns for kippot





I have sewn kippot out of fabric remnants to match my boys' shirts. For a pattern I used an old yarmulke. I cut out one section and used it as a pattern, adding on .25 inch seam allowance. If you are working with less experienced sewers, you might want to leave .5 inch seam allowance. Put one section on top of another, right sides together, and sew along the seam allowance. Open up the two sections and repeat with a third section. Continue until all [...] 6141 66 37_Non-Jewish Mom trying to be sensative13_Wendy Marsden22_wmarsden@MtHolyoke.EDU37_Mon, 30 Dec 1996 13:46:31 -0500 (EST)328_- Hi all. I'm the mother of 3.75 and 5.75 year olds. We are active in our Unitarian-Universalist church, although I was raised Catholic by a non-practicing (obviously) Jewish mother. That's my background, here's my problem: I want to know how to NOT be part of the problem the jewish children are facing at Christmas-time. [...] 6208 68 23_Re: Booklet for schools10_David Karr13_dkarr@bbn.com37_Mon, 30 Dec 1996 13:50:00 -0500 (EST)571_- Marcie Fraade (Fraade@ix.netcom.com) wrote: >I think we run the risk of becomeing *too* defensive with the concept of >a booklet. I think that school boards need to be aware of the >sensitivities of all religions - Judaism is not the *only* minority >religion in this country.

I agree on both points. I thought I said this before, but I'll try to state it more clearly: the most effective booklet would not focus exclusively on Jewish issues, but rather would promote tolerance of other religions as well---Hinduism, Islam, Buddhism, and even Christianity. [...] 6277 76 10_Submission18_ADELE BRADY BOLSON26_102437.1612@CompuServe.COM37_Mon, 30 Dec 1996 13:56:29 -0500 (EST)466_- Marcie Fraade,

It would not be the goal of such a booklet to proselytize, but to educate. And, yes, I think other minority religions would be wise to provide similar material. I was thinking of such a booklet being distributed to administrators and teachers so that they will know what they need to know in order to be accepting and respectful. We cannot expect others to be accepting and respectful of our traditions if they don't know what they are. [...] 6354 140 42_Chanukkah thoughts- better late than never11_JX and Soph16_sophjxl@dnai.com37_Mon, 30 Dec 1996 14:17:45 -0500 (EST)549_- Hi,

Here are some comments on a number of issues that have come up. I know they're too late for this year but I probably wouldn't remember to post them next year...

Re: MEANING OF CHANUKKAH- I. Pour-El wrote: > I have recently heard a third and to me, most likely view, that is > the Macabees were fighting assimilationist Jews as well as other groups and > in no way was religious freedom or tolerance part of their creed. In other > words, their motto was "our way is the only correct way..." [snip] > It seems important that [...] 6495 51 28_Re: SCJ-PARENTING digest 3430_16_Elizcat1@aol.com37_Mon, 30 Dec 1996 17:22:28 -0500 (EST)399_- << out of no where the man starts explaining to me that he is messianic and has just a little bit of material he wishes me to read. In my living room, with my son, sitting there watching, he starts telling me about why his point of view makes more sense then mine. He tells me that JC is the natural way to truly be Jewish. He tells me that if I truly read Biblical text...I'd believe too.>> [...] 6547 100 28_Re: SCJ-PARENTING digest 34510_Marc Davis15_mdavis@infi.net37_Tue, 31 Dec 1996 11:53:26 -0500 (EST)526_- > Hi all. > I'm the mother of 3.75 and 5.75 year olds. We are active > in our Unitarian-Universalist church, although I was raised Catholic > by a non-practicing (obviously) Jewish mother. That's my background, > here's my problem: I want to know how to NOT be part of the problem > the jewish children are facing at Christmas-time. > > A jewish five year old came over for the day. My house is the > sort of mess that happens when a hundred dollars worth of toys > drop from the sky into your livingroom with no clear [...] 6648 75 36_Re: Religious intolerance in schools10_Marc Davis15_mdavis@infi.net37_Tue, 31 Dec 1996 13:14:54 -0500 (EST)582_- MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Marc Davis Subject: Re: SCJ-PARENTING digest 345

> eight > o'clock in the evening, having eaten only a bagel at the synagogue so we > were > hungry as well, and picked up voice mail. One of my daughter's teachers had > left her a voice mail with a homework assignment that she had made that day, > with a request that she go ahead and do it that evening because it would be > easier for both my daughter and the teacher if she did it at the same time [...] 6724 38 18_Purim presentation15_Irene Bleiweiss16_IBLEIWEI@fcc.gov37_Tue, 31 Dec 1996 13:34:17 -0500 (EST)463_- I would like to do a Purim presentation for my daughter's second grade class. It is a public school and my goal would be to expose the kids to Jewish customs while being respectful of the children's other varied religions. In addition to a craft -- perhaps Hamantashen making or crown decorating -- I wanted to read to them about the holiday. But I want to avoid anything that would be, for example, the equivalent of lighting a Chanukah menorah in class. [...] 6763 31 39_Re: Another Way to Make Herself Visible15_Richard A. Ifft20_raifft@ix.netcom.com37_Tue, 31 Dec 1996 23:18:07 -0500 (EST)600_- My nine year old daughter has again refused to go along with Jews being invisible in parts of our (American) culture.

She read in a magazine today that the American Doll Company has gotten requests for a Native American doll and for an Asian doll. (For those of you who don't know, there are five historical dolls, all Christian. They come with books, clothes, accessories, etc. They come with a past and a history.) Even though the company sold tiny chanukiot, Chanukah gelt, a dreidel, and Jewish star pendants for the contemporary dolls this year, my daughter wasn't satisfied after [...]