1 SHAMASH.ORG /usr/www/wwwhc/listserv/archives/scj-parenting June 2000 2 65 50_[SCJ-PARENTING:5237] Looks-ism and Jewish families15_Gina Marie Wade23_gmwade@worldnet.att.net29_Sun, 18 Jun 2000 11:18:57 EDT416_- I hesitate to write this, because I'm not sure that it's a Jewish parenting issue, but at the same time, I think it is.

I am considerably more fair-skinned than my husband and his family. Consequently, our son is very pale, with white-blond hair and blue eyes. He is an adorable kid. He is a very cute kid, but more importantly, he is sweet natured and he is as well mannered as a two year old can be. [...] 68 62 54_[SCJ-PARENTING:5240] Re: Looks-ism and Jewish families14_Betsy Schwartz16_betsys@shore.net29_Mon, 19 Jun 2000 10:57:10 EDT708_- **************************************** MODERATOR'S NOTE: --------------- MODERATOR'S NOTE: This message is being approved as a follow-up to a previous post. Future messages, in order to remain on-topic for this newsgroup, should focus specifically on how this subject area relates to concerns of Jewish parenting. --------------- ****************************************

Speaking as someone who is married to a non-Jew: I think you're bashing up against a cultural difference, but it's not racism. It's the degree to which Jews tend to make personal remarks within the family. If his family did *not* fully accept you, but didn't dislike you, they would probably keep their distance by being [...] 131 69 32_[SCJ-PARENTING:5241] Re: lookism14_Aliza Fischman28_fisch.chips@worldnet.att.net29_Mon, 19 Jun 2000 11:08:30 EDT515_- >I hesitate to write this, because I'm not sure that it's a Jewish parenting issue, but at the same time, I >think it is.

>Recently we went to a family reunion and saw my husband's extended >family, most of whom have not seen my son since he was 6 months old or >so. While it pleases me that everyone was fawning over him and loving >on him, some of the comments made by his relatives left me uneasy, and >I don't know if I'm overreacting or not. The fact that I am a convert >makes it hard for me to [...] 201 83 53_[SCJ-PARENTING:5242] Re: "Jewish or Non-Jewish Looks"0_21_IREISS@samello.com.br29_Mon, 19 Jun 2000 11:49:26 EDT588_- Hi Gina,

Wouldn't it be nice if all human relations could be based on mutual respect, understanding and goodwill? Many people would like to believe that prejudice is a problem of the past; however, incidents of prejudice and discrimination such as name calling, exclusion, vandalism, etc. occur on a daily basis. People who have poor self-images all too often try to nurse their own worth by finding people to put down. Other people just believe it is the popular thing to do or that it is a way of preserving their group. Still others have had bad experiences with persons [...] 285 90 54_[SCJ-PARENTING:5244] Re: Looks-ism and Jewish families0_17_bdlerner@JTSA.EDU29_Mon, 19 Jun 2000 16:19:43 EDT424_- Dear Gina,

Unfortunately, you are right about the translation of the Yiddish words, which can be understood in different ways.

For some, "goyishe punim" is a dream of the Jew who wishes s/he had not been born as a Jew and didn't look Jewish. What they fail to know is that there is no Jewish look or Jewish face - there are Eastern European or Middle Eastern "looks" but even they are extremely varied! [...] 376 49 55_[SCJ-PARENTING:5245] Seeking Mother's help in Jerusalem6_EAdler48_eadlerNO_SPAM_PLEASE@ndsisraelNO_SPAM_PLEASE.com29_Mon, 19 Jun 2000 18:09:21 EDT402_- **************************************** MODERATOR'S NOTE: Folks that have similar concerns, especially from an Orthodox point of view, might also be interested in the YI mailing list, where stuff like this is posted ALL THE TIME. You can find it at http://world.std.com/~yi/brookline/ by going to the community links. Note that the YI list is Orthodox. **************************************** [...] 426 51 54_[SCJ-PARENTING:5246] Re: Looks-ism and Jewish families12_Ron Kritzman18_ron-k@mediaone.net29_Mon, 19 Jun 2000 18:14:29 EDT533_- Gina Marie Wade wrote:

> Specifically, my husband's aunts were gushing about how they have to > spend lots of money to get the blond hair that Jake was born with. > This would not have been a big deal, except that my husband's > grandmother referred to him several times as having a "goyishe punim." > (Which I'm pretty sure means that he has a goyish face.) I'm not sure > what to do with this. I worry that these kinds of comments will follow > him through his life and leave him feeling alienated from his family. > [...] 478 68 54_[SCJ-PARENTING:5247] Re: Looks-ism and Jewish families10_animzmirot19_animzmirot@home.com29_Tue, 20 Jun 2000 09:23:22 EDT291_- FWIW, my blond haired, blue-eyed son looked just like the kid on the Dutch Boy paint can when he was little, and I got the same comments. My child is from a family that has never (yet) had a child born of intermarriage, in other words, he was born Jewish of born-Jewish parents, etc. [...] 547 96 54_[SCJ-PARENTING:5248] Re: Looks-ism and Jewish families13_Judith Gordon18_judith011@home.com29_Tue, 20 Jun 2000 11:36:50 EDT551_-

>I am considerably more fair-skinned than my husband and his family. >Consequently, our son is very pale, with white-blond hair and blue >eyes.

>Recently we went to a family reunion and saw my husband's extended >family, most of whom have not seen my son since he was 6 months old or >so. While it pleases me that everyone was fawning over him and loving >on him, some of the comments made by his relatives left me uneasy, and >I don't know if I'm overreacting or not. The fact that I am a convert >makes it hard for me to gauge [...] 644 47 50_[SCJ-PARENTING:5250] Re: SCJ-PARENTING digest 12090_16_DKerzner@aol.com29_Tue, 20 Jun 2000 17:05:39 EDT443_-

In a message dated 6/18/00 9:03:39 PM, scj-parenting@shamash.org writes:

<< My husband thinks I'm reading too much into this, but it bothers me that some of the family members were focusing so much on his looks precisely because they have this attitude. I'm bothered by the self-hatred implicit in this - that they value his looks because he doesn't "look Jewish" and "looking Jewish" is understood to be a bad thing. >> [...] 692 72 54_[SCJ-PARENTING:5251] Re: Looks-ism and Jewish families10_animzmirot19_animzmirot@home.com29_Wed, 21 Jun 2000 00:31:01 EDT566_-

scjp-submit@shamash.org "Judith Gordon" wrote in message news:394F76B6.D34ADA55@home.com... > > I have been told this problem is a lot less acute in Israel where Jews > come in every color and racial type. It is really only in North America > that looking Jewish means looking like a Polish-Jewish refuge. > I also think this is less and less of an issue in the West than it is in the east. The other day we were in the Kosher bakery picking up pastries for Shavout for our shul and a woman came in and ordered a big lot of food. [...] 765 58 94_[SCJ-PARENTING:5253] Administrivia: Pointer to voting on a new NG soc.culture.jewish.moderated0_20_moshes@mm.huji.ac.il29_Wed, 21 Jun 2000 09:54:22 EDT429_- ** Moderator's Note: Although this is not related specifically to parenting ** or Judaism, this is a newsgroup creation effort in the same hierarchy as ** soc.culture.jewish.parenting, and hence, relevant as adminstrivia for the ** group. -- Yr. Mod.

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Voting is currently underway on a proposal to create a new moderated Usenet newsgroup, soc.culture.jewish.moderated. [...] 824 72 33_[SCJ-PARENTING:5254] Re: Looksism0_21_IREISS@samello.com.br29_Wed, 21 Jun 2000 09:56:31 EDT549_- Hi!

When I teach my son about how to handle detrimental comments and acts he could face, I will refer to Martin Luther King even though he is referring to a different group of people. I think that he handled himself in his speeches very well because:

1. He didn’t put down any other group. “When we let freedom ring, when we let it ring from every village and every hamlet, from every state and every city, we will be able to speed up that day when all of God's children, black men and white men, Jews and Gentiles, Protestants [...] 897 100 54_[SCJ-PARENTING:5255] Re: Looks-ism and Jewish families18_Rosemary Lieberman21_rosemary@microflo.com29_Wed, 21 Jun 2000 22:47:38 EDT498_- I find your statements very interesting on several points and am responding from my point of view on hearing comments as a child and now as a parent..

First, my father converted to Judaism and my mother is a Moroccan Jew. I spent my teens in North Florida where there is a very small jewish presence. As a small child I really did not notice comments, but once I hit my teens I was more amazed at what Jews would say rather than non-jews whose comments I just wrote off to ignorance. [...] 998 30 41_[SCJ-PARENTING:5256] jewish homeschooling12_warren Keyes22_mcarkeyes@sympatico.ca29_Fri, 23 Jun 2000 08:25:37 EDT558_- We are a reform/conservative Jewish family with young children searching for jewish homeschoolers in Toronto. We have been looking for others but have so far been unsuccessful. It would be wonderful if we could make some contacts. Our E-mail address is mcarkeyes@sympatico.ca.



============================================================================== This post reflects the author's opinion; the moderators' opinions may differ. Posters seeking medical or halachic information should consult competent authorities in those fields. [...] 1029 57 45_[SCJ-PARENTING:5259] Re: Jewish Homeschooling21_Jill and Larry Kasten17_kastens@erols.com29_Sun, 25 Jun 2000 09:19:54 EDT435_- > > Subject: [SCJ-PARENTING:5256] jewish homeschooling > Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 08:25:37 EDT > From: warren Keyes > > We are a reform/conservative Jewish family with young children > searching for jewish homeschoolers in Toronto. We have been looking > for others but have so far been unsuccessful. It would be wonderful if > we could make some contacts. Our E-mail address is > mcarkeyes@sympatico.ca. [...] 1087 61 45_[SCJ-PARENTING:5260] Re: jewish homeschooling0_17_bdlerner@JTSA.EDU29_Sun, 25 Jun 2000 10:14:02 EDT588_- Dear friends,

I have strong feelings about home-schooling especially in Jewish studies. There is a social program that is critical in Jewish education, a sharing in the educational process of preparing individuals to be part of a Jewish community.

If the Jewish community is weak, then strong individuals who are committed to the community are needed. If the community is strong but misguided, again the individuals who are well educated and involved are needed. If the community is strong and properly guided, the the individuals will be enhanced by that community. [...] 1149 87 32_[SCJ-PARENTING:5261] Re: lookism15_Fred Rosenblatt15_fredr5@juno.com29_Mon, 26 Jun 2000 15:49:29 EDT589_- In article <961389645scjp-submit@shamash.org>, Aliza Fischman wrote:

>>I hesitate to write this, because I'm not sure that it's a Jewish >parenting issue, but at the same time, I >think it is. > >>Recently we went to a family reunion and saw my husband's extended >>family, most of whom have not seen my son since he was 6 months old or >>so. While it pleases me that everyone was fawning over him and loving >>on him, some of the comments made by his relatives left me uneasy, and >>I don't know if I'm overreacting or not. The fact that I am [...] 1237 75 45_[SCJ-PARENTING:5263] Re: jewish homeschooling21_Jill and Larry Kasten17_kastens@erols.com29_Mon, 26 Jun 2000 18:37:20 EDT332_- > Hello Dov and all,

I very much understand your point of view, and I can not speak for other Homeschoolers. But it does not speak to me or my family. I do belong and am very active in my local Conservative Temple. I serve on the Sisterhood Board and as Chairman of the Ritual Committee, and also teach Hebrew School. [...] 1313 78 45_[SCJ-PARENTING:5265] Re: jewish homeschooling0_17_bdlerner@JTSA.EDU29_Tue, 27 Jun 2000 22:38:52 EDT512_- Dear Jill, Larry and Josh Kasten,

It would appear that to every generality there is at least one - probably a great many more - exceptions.

It sounds as though the congregation is fortunate that you are involved with them, and furthermore as an involved parent(s), your son is also very fortunate. Too few parents are involved with their child(ren)'s Jewish studies, and that affects their level of motivation and accomplishment IMHO more than virtualy any other factor including "ability." [...] 1392 54 33_[SCJ-PARENTING:5267] bar mitzvahs12_Sandy Kanner26_scarletohara12@hotmail.com29_Thu, 29 Jun 2000 20:34:54 EDT494_- Hi I am new on this list. My name is Sandy Cohen I have four children am modern orthodox and am 39 years of age. I am making a bar mitzvah fro my son in a few weeks and have been looking for a meaningful theme for his bar mitzvah. I feel that the party is such a small part of this momentous occassion in his life. He has reached the age of mitzvot observance and I want him to take his new role seriously. He is now a responsible full fledged member of the Jewish people. I have always [...] 1447 85 37_[SCJ-PARENTING:5268] Re: bar mitzvahs11_Leah Adezio16_sladezio@nac.net29_Fri, 30 Jun 2000 01:51:43 EDT544_-

Sandy Kanner wrote in message <962308788scjp-submit@shamash.org>... >Hi I am new on this list. My name is Sandy Cohen I have four children am >modern orthodox and am 39 years of age. I am making a bar mitzvah fro my son >in a few weeks and have been looking for a meaningful theme for his bar >mitzvah. I feel that the party is such a small part of this momentous >occassion in his life. He has reached the age of mitzvot observance and I >want him to take his new role seriously. He is now a responsible full >fledged member of [...] 1533 103 37_[SCJ-PARENTING:5269] Re: bar mitzvahs10_I. Pour-El18_pourel@iastate.edu29_Fri, 30 Jun 2000 09:41:02 EDT325_-

Personal opinion: Shoah theme is a bad idea for three reasons.

1. Could upset boy &/or guests by bringing back bad memories on what is supposed to be a happy occasion.

2. Could induce a form of survivor's guilt in your son.

3. Takes the focus of the occasion off your son and onto others. [...]