1 SHAMASH.ORG /usr/www/wwwhc/listserv/archives/heblang June 2000
2 132 21_RE: Initial yod-hireq21_Rosenfelder, Yehezkel36_Yehezkel_Rosenfelder@icominfosys.com30_Wed, 7 Jun 2000 13:28:27 +0300535_iso-8859-1 Nobody in Israel would teach "ani ya'aseh" as correct!! Also, the initial yod (or other examples of swallowed/slurred consonants) is a result of 'street language'. Admittedly, over generations these things can become part os a language, but let's not get carried away.<br><br>I don't think any of us would discuss English grammar or pronunciation and use 'street language' from certain parts of any major U.S. city as proof. Growing up in Canada, no teacher would mark "tonite" as correct and "ain't" was not a word !! [...]
135 51 29_Normativism vs. descriptivism14_Tsuguya Sasaki15_tsuguya@gol.com30_Wed, 7 Jun 2000 20:52:09 +0900420_iso-8859-1 Yehezkel Rosenfelder wrote:<br><br>> Nobody in Israel would teach "ani ya'aseh" as correct!!<br><br>Normativism is one thing, and descriptivism is another. The formation of _ya'ase_ for the 1st person singular future is a result of a cross-linguistically very natural language change.<br><br>> Also, the initial yod (or other examples of swallowed/slurred > consonants) is a result of 'street language'. [...]
187 47 33_Re: Normativism vs. descriptivism0_15_rturkel@cas.org36_Wed, 7 Jun 2000 16:16:41 -0400 (EDT)557_- Tsuguya Sasaki <tsuguya@gol.com> wrote:<br><br>>I assure you, everybody will look at you funny if you say too normative >a form (not _e'ese_, _nishbar_, or _yisra'el_).<br><br>You've got that right! Try saying "me'ayin" instead of the far more common but quite incorrect "me'eyfo'" and people will look at you as though you had three eyes. Likewise for the masculine forms of numbers; even though the coins say "chamisha sheqalim," it's a rare Israeli under the age of 40 (who isn't a schoolteacher) who will say that rather than "chamesh sheqalim." [...]
235 50 33_Re: Normativism vs. descriptivism14_Tsuguya Sasaki15_tsuguya@gol.com30_Thu, 8 Jun 2000 09:07:42 +0900644_iso-8859-1 Please allow me to supplement what Rick Turkel wrote about how Hebrew is actually spoken by the majority of the population of Israel.<br><br>NUMERALS: As Rick pointed out, numerals are a "total mess" from the view point of normative grammar, but descriptively one can say that their system has been reorganized. One' is probably the only numeral where the distinction of gender is kept in the spoken language. Elsewhere only feminine forms are used. Non-normative forms that are widely used include _shmona esre_ (instead of the normative _shmona asar_ / _shmone esre_) '18', _shva'at alafim_ (instead of the normative _shiv'at [...]
286 103 33_Re: Normativism vs. descriptivism10_Jerry Blaz19_ffdog@earthlink.net31_Wed, 07 Jun 2000 17:03:24 -0700563_us-ascii This is an echo of an argument that began around the early part of mid-20th century linguistics, as exemplified by Charles Fries and Descriptive Grammar. Of course, there is a tendency in spoken language to simplify and, for instance, attempt to conjugate verbs by analogy rather than according to grammatical rules. Thus the example of m'yuva instead of m'yubbah. As someone who learned his Hebrew in Israel and continued speaking it in "nexar," I will always say me'ayin, and could not say me-efo. So, I view some of these changes as problematic. [...]
390 40 33_Re: Normativism vs. descriptivism16_Kenneth G Miller23_kennethgmiller@juno.com29_Wed, 07 Jun 2000 22:37:11 EDT337_- Jerry Blaz writes: <<< This is an echo of an argument that began around the early part of mid-20th century linguistics, ... >>><br><br>Unless you want to check out the Gemara (somewhere in the 4th chapter of Megilah, IIRC) which complained about the people in Beit Shean, who used the same pronunciation for both Aleph and 'Ayin. [...]