1 SHAMASH.ORG /usr/www/wwwhc/listserv/archives/habonet February 2006 2 852 57_[QUAR] Tavor Reunion-June 9-11, 2006 Mark Your Calendars!10_Dan Kanter20_kanter18@COMCAST.NET31_Tue, 31 Jan 2006 23:58:15 -0600734_us-ascii









Tavor Alum: Mark your calendars! We will be celebrating 50 joyful summers of Tavor this coming June 9-11, 2006 in beautiful Three Rivers, Michigan.

Notices will be going out soon!



Danny Kanter Kanter18@comcast.net

------------------------------------------------------------------------- The HABONET mailing list is hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org, a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 855 951 35_Fw: Rebuttal to Achcar (and Yuval)]13_Yuval Warshai20_warshy@SBCGLOBAL.NET30_Wed, 1 Feb 2006 11:27:47 -0500380_iso-8859-1 Chaverim/ot,

I am posting the message below on behalf of Elihu Davison. I haven't even read the message myself, yet. Elihu sent it to me after trying to post it to the list and not succeeding. I also had some problems posting a couple of days ago, and here is a possible explanation I have received from the people at the Shamash.org server administration: [...] 1807 38 61_Re: [QUAR] Tavor Reunion-June 9-11, 2006 Mark Your Calendars!11_Sylvia Lask14_SMLBOV@AOL.COM28_Wed, 1 Feb 2006 11:31:21 EST429_US-ASCII Will the Tavor reunion include people from Kinneret also.

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To unsubscribe email: HABONET-unsubscribe-request@SHAMASH.ORG 1846 1019 35_Re: Rebuttal to Achcar (and Yuval)]13_Yuval Warshai20_warshy@SBCGLOBAL.NET30_Wed, 1 Feb 2006 17:59:48 -0500560_iso-8859-1 Dear Elihu,

Since I have just posted here a pretty long essay containing my own views on the conflict and on the future of Israel (my reply to Noam, under the thread "Segev hits the nail on the head"), and since a back and forth on the historical details of the conflict will probably not interest many people beyond me and you and a couple of other political buffs, why don't we make it a little more straightforward and to the point. It is apparent from what I wrote that I identify with the Zionist and not-so-Zionist left in Israel. [...] 2866 36 35_Re: Rebuttal to Achcar (and Yuval)]0_23_rdsmith1957@COMCAST.NET30_Wed, 1 Feb 2006 23:14:19 +0000278_- I have not read New Republic regularly for a year or so but I don't think labeling it right-wing is fair. For one thing they supported Gore in 2000 (Martin Peretz was his teacher I believe) and Kerry in 2004. I think it would be more fair to call them hawkish Democrats. [...] 2903 122 35_Re: Rebuttal to Achcar (and Yuval)]13_Yuval Warshai20_warshy@SBCGLOBAL.NET30_Wed, 1 Feb 2006 18:48:36 -0500604_iso-8859-1 Richard,

I am aware of their last minute acrobatics in those two elections to keep this fig-leaf that allows them to continue calling themselves 'centrist' and 'independent.' But when you make the effort to go and read the stuff they publish, from Martin Peretz on down to Peter Beinart, to Andrew Sullivan, the feeling is unmistakable. And what about these two pieces on Hamas and Israel that Elihu just posted here? How can you define this type of stuff other than plainly and openly "right wing?" It all comes unmistakably from that "area of the political map" where you'd find [...] 3026 82 35_Re: Rebuttal to Achcar (and Yuval)]0_23_rdsmith1957@COMCAST.NET30_Thu, 2 Feb 2006 01:09:29 +0000644_- On the issue of Israel they tend to be to the right, but there are more issues than that. On health care, gay rights, education and assorted domestic issues they lean to the left.

-------------- Original message -------------- From: Yuval Warshai

Richard,

I am aware of their last minute acrobatics in those two elections to keep this fig-leaf that allows them to continue calling themselves 'centrist' and 'independent.' But when you make the effort to go and read the stuff they publish, from Martin Peretz on down to Peter Beinart, to Andrew Sullivan, the feeling is unmistakable. And what [...] 3109 42 61_Re: [QUAR] Tavor Reunion-June 9-11, 2006 Mark Your Calendars!0_14_Ohanka@AOL.COM28_Wed, 1 Feb 2006 21:12:35 EST636_US-ASCII In a message dated 2/1/06 9:05:16 AM, kanter18@COMCAST.NET writes:

<<









Tavor Alum: Mark your calendars! We will be celebrating 50 joyful summers of Tavor this coming June 9-11, 2006 in beautiful Three Rivers, Michigan.

Notices will be going out soon!



Danny Kanter Kanter18@comcast.net >>

I was going to wait until our reunion web-site was up and running, but I can't be up-staged by Danny Kantor. [...] 3152 44 61_Re: [QUAR] Tavor Reunion-June 9-11, 2006 Mark Your Calendars!0_14_Ohanka@AOL.COM28_Wed, 1 Feb 2006 21:18:14 EST331_US-ASCII (OK, I'll do it right tis time.) I was planning to wait until our web-site was up and running, but I can't be up-staged by Danny Cantor.

Galil Alum: Mark your calendars! We will be celebrating 60 joyful summers of Galil this coming September 1-3, 2006 (Labor Day Weekend) in beautiful Ottsville, Pennsylvania. [...] 3197 38 61_Re: [QUAR] Tavor Reunion-June 9-11, 2006 Mark Your Calendars!11_Sylvia Lask14_SMLBOV@AOL.COM28_Wed, 1 Feb 2006 21:30:42 EST432_US-ASCII Again, is the Tavor reunion going to include Kinneret folks.

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To unsubscribe email: HABONET-unsubscribe-request@SHAMASH.ORG 3236 32 61_Re: [QUAR] Tavor Reunion-June 9-11, 2006 Mark Your Calendars!0_14_Ohanka@AOL.COM28_Wed, 1 Feb 2006 21:34:02 EST512_US-ASCII In a message dated 2/1/06 9:31:18 PM, SMLBOV@AOL.COM writes:

<< Again, is the Tavor reunion going to include Kinneret folks.

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To unsubscribe email: HABONET-unsubscribe-request@SHAMASH.ORG >> [...] 3269 164 61_Re: [QUAR] Tavor Reunion-June 9-11, 2006 Mark Your Calendars!13_Yuval Warshai21_warshai@SBCGLOBAL.NET30_Wed, 1 Feb 2006 23:24:36 -0500571_iso-8859-1 Dear Sylvia,

I and my family visited the site of Kinneret in Chelsea, Michigan, some 10 years ago. We visited it with my in-laws, Sy and Tova Salinger, of Southfield, MI. Sy was on the tzevet techni of Kinneret in the summers of 1940 and 1941, before he was enlisted in the army and served in Germany from 1943 to 1945. The site was abandoned, but everything was pretty much still there, including the family bungalows at the other side of the lake, in what was the Farband camp. Well, at least the foundations of those bungalows were still there. [...] 3434 459 50_Fw: Arab and Israeli mothers join forces for peace11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@SOCAL.RR.COM30_Wed, 1 Feb 2006 22:39:01 -0800699_iso-8859-1 The Israel Project - Journalists Newsletter Does anybody know about this?

Steve

PM Subject: Fw: Arab and Israeli mothers join forces for peace





----- Original Message ----- From: Jennifer Laszlo Mizrahi





January 31, 2006

Dear TIP Supporter,

The Israel Project will launch a cross-country "Mothers for Peace" tour and TV ad campaign in February to bring attention to the culture of hate in Palestinian schools. The tour, which comes on the heels of Hamas' victory in the Palestinian legislative elections, features Nonie Darwish, an Arab woman who grew up in Gaza as the daughter of a "martyr" who organized and [...] 3894 245 60_Re: Gilbert Achcar's guest editorial piece through Juan Cole11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@SOCAL.RR.COM30_Wed, 1 Feb 2006 23:06:48 -0800475_iso-8859-1 Noam

Silly? SILLY? Noam, them's fightin' words!

Your pal

Steve



----- Original Message ----- From: Noam Stopak not an attempt to start even a small fracas over differences of opinion. . . . . . . .to show how silly I think Steve's message is. ----- Original Message ----- From: Steve Klein To: HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG Sent: Monday, January 30, 2006 12:47 PM Subject: Re: Gilbert Achcar's guest editorial piece through Juan Cole [...] 4140 935 60_Re: Gilbert Achcar's guest editorial piece through Juan Cole11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@SOCAL.RR.COM30_Wed, 1 Feb 2006 23:15:37 -0800377_iso-8859-1

Yuval

Well said (though I suspect "off the bat" isn't entirely flattering). Still, thank you for answering.

I get skittish whenever an Israel-hater such as Juan Cole writes anything, even pieces of truth that may have validity on their own.

I am glad you understood my intentions and answered in a manner respectful of the process. [...] 5076 66 61_Re: [QUAR] Tavor Reunion-June 9-11, 2006 Mark Your Calendars!12_Jessica Bonn21_jessicab@BEZEQINT.NET30_Thu, 2 Feb 2006 09:25:20 +0200497_iso-8859-1 I would actually consider planning a trip to the US based on the date of the reunion. But why this weekend - impossible for the Israelis (school starts Sept. 1)! Why not early summer or something? Or is this our punishment for making aliyah? Jessie Bonn (still regretting missing the 50th) ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2006 4:18 AM Subject: Re: [QUAR] Tavor Reunion-June 9-11, 2006 Mark Your Calendars! [...] 5143 91 61_Re: [QUAR] Tavor Reunion-June 9-11, 2006 Mark Your Calendars!17_Sheldon and Heidi21_shelheid@ACTCOM.CO.IL30_Thu, 2 Feb 2006 11:25:43 +0200637_us-ascii Ditto!! Bad form to miss the first day of school in a new school Heidi

At 09:25 02/02/2006, you wrote:

>I would actually consider planning a trip to the US based on the date of >the reunion. But why this weekend - impossible for the Israelis (school >starts Sept. 1)! Why not early summer or something? Or is this our >punishment for making aliyah? >Jessie Bonn (still regretting missing the 50th) >----- Original Message ----- From: >To: >Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2006 4:18 AM >Subject: Re: [QUAR] Tavor Reunion-June 9-11, 2006 Mark Your Calendars! > > >>(OK, I'll [...] 5235 69 24_oh, so good for the Jews12_Jessica Bonn21_jessicab@BEZEQINT.NET30_Thu, 2 Feb 2006 13:25:13 +0200808_windows-1255

The message is ready to be sent with the following file or link attachments: Shortcut to: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/02/international/middleeast/02reconstruct.html?ei=5094&en=5aaa2c3c5e95fc97&hp=&ex=1138942800&adxnnl=1&partner=homepage&adxnnlx=1138879409-7ZRuhwaXDLUl6NQhF3WC8w

Note: To protect against computer viruses, e-mail programs may prevent sending or receiving certain types of file attachments. Check your e-mail security settings to determine how attachments are handled.

------------------------------------------------------------------------- The HABONET mailing list is hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org, a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ 5305 45 28_Re: oh, so good for the Jews11_Judy Gelman16_gelman@EROLS.COM30_Thu, 2 Feb 2006 06:34:06 -05001036_windows-1255 California tried having a special prison section to make Muslim observance easier. Looks like the Fed should build one with kosher food, a rabbi and an eruv. (Or does every prison have an eruv?) Judy

Jessica Bonn wrote:

> > The message is ready to be sent with the following file or link > attachments: > Shortcut to: > http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/02/international/middleeast/02reconstruct.html?ei=5094&en=5aaa2c3c5e95fc97&hp=&ex=1138942800&adxnnl=1&partner=homepage&adxnnlx=1138879409-7ZRuhwaXDLUl6NQhF3WC8w > > > Note: To protect against computer viruses, e-mail programs may prevent > sending or receiving certain types of file attachments. Check your > e-mail security settings to determine how attachments are handled. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > The [...] 5351 949 35_Re: Segev hits the nail on the head12_Jessica Bonn21_jessicab@BEZEQINT.NET30_Thu, 2 Feb 2006 13:37:39 +0200471_iso-8859-1 How so - I mean, what about it got your gut? Obviously he (or his speechwriter) can 'talk the talk,' except, as usual for Palestinian peace rhetoric - in distinction to Israeli - there's no introspection or chest-beating about their errors. Am I still waiting for a Palestinian Dalai Lama...? jb ----- Original Message ----- From: Noam Stopak To: HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2006 2:56 AM Subject: Re: Segev hits the nail on the head [...] 6301 204 18_Re: Kinneret, too!14_Holtzer Family20_carmdave@URIM.ORG.IL30_Thu, 2 Feb 2006 17:13:52 +0200325_iso-8859-1 In 1965, the KM Bet Rambler, under the leadership of Bruce Kutnick, went East and ended up with Kabbalat Shabbat around the toren (or what was left of it - not much) at Camp Kinneret. It was a stirring and emotional experience for all involved. I'm sure all Kinneret chevre will be welcomed at Tavor ........ [...] 6506 62 28_Re: oh, so good for the Jews0_13_JLCAA@AOL.COM28_Thu, 2 Feb 2006 10:48:49 EST491_US-ASCII

In a message dated 2/2/2006 6:38:52 AM Eastern Standard Time, gelman@EROLS.COM writes:

Or does every prison have an eruv?)



Yes, every prison IS an eruv.

------------------------------------------------------------------------- The HABONET mailing list is hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org, a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 6569 252 54_Re: Fw: Arab and Israeli mothers join forces for peace0_26_Sharon_Gates@LONGBEACH.GOV30_Thu, 2 Feb 2006 07:58:09 -0800467_us-ascii This is the first I've heard of this group or this project, but scrolling to the bottom of the piece gets you to the listing of the Board of Advisors. By this list, I think one can get some picture of the political orientation of the group.

Sharon









Steve Klein Sent by: Habonim Dror Alumni Virtual Machaneh 02/01/2006 10:39 PM Please respond to Steve Klein [...] 6822 53 54_Re: Fw: Arab and Israeli mothers join forces for peace0_14_LHIAM1@AOL.COM28_Thu, 2 Feb 2006 11:25:45 EST503_US-ASCII Sharon I didn't realize that Peace and Security has a political orientation??? What exactly are you trying to say??





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To unsubscribe email: HABONET-unsubscribe-request@SHAMASH.ORG 6876 98 54_Re: Fw: Arab and Israeli mothers join forces for peace0_26_Sharon_Gates@LONGBEACH.GOV30_Thu, 2 Feb 2006 08:53:22 -0800502_us-ascii The broad concepts of "peace" and "security" have no political orientation. However, The Israel Project defines itself (right above that list of its board of advisers) as "an international non-profit organization devoted to educating the press and the public about Israel while promoting security, freedom and peace. The Israel Project provides journalists, leaders and opinion-makers accurate information about Israel." Such an endeavor, by its very nature, has a political orientation. [...] 6975 97 54_Re: Fw: Arab and Israeli mothers join forces for peace0_14_LHIAM1@AOL.COM28_Thu, 2 Feb 2006 11:59:51 EST617_US-ASCII

In a message dated 2/2/2006 11:54:17 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, Sharon_Gates@LONGBEACH.GOV writes:

The broad concepts of "peace" and "security" have no political orientation. However, The Israel Project defines itself (right above that list of its board of advisers) as "an international non-profit organization devoted to educating the press and the public about Israel while promoting security, freedom and peace. The Israel Project provides journalists, leaders and opinion-makers accurate information about Israel." Such an endeavor, by its very nature, has a political orientation. [...] 7073 117 54_Re: Fw: Arab and Israeli mothers join forces for peace0_26_Sharon_Gates@LONGBEACH.GOV30_Thu, 2 Feb 2006 10:07:36 -0800623_us-ascii I did not say it was OBVIOUS what its political orientation was. I said that the group had a political orientation. All I'm saying is to consider the source of anything you (I use the term generally) read. What is considered accurate by one person can and often is considered skewed by another. Surely you have encountered people who insist that any mention of, say, house demolitions by the Israeli government be accompanied by discussion of terrorist activities on the part of the Palestinians; at the same time allowing discussion of Palestinian terrorism without requiring discussion of the occupation. A [...] 7191 42 28_Re: oh, so good for the Jews11_Judy Gelman16_gelman@EROLS.COM30_Thu, 2 Feb 2006 13:28:50 -0500664_ISO-8859-1 That is sort of what I meant--although the lintels on wire gates don't fit the technical requirements. I have no idea why not, but an Orthodox rabbi recently told me that the gates on the separation fence disqualify it as an eruvfor this reason. Judy

JLCAA@AOL.COM wrote:

> In a message dated 2/2/2006 6:38:52 AM Eastern Standard Time, > gelman@EROLS.COM writes: > > Or does every prison have an eruv?) > > Yes, every prison IS an eruv. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > The HABONET mailing list is hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network > , a service of Hebrew College [...] 7234 283 54_Re: Fw: Arab and Israeli mothers join forces for peace11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@SOCAL.RR.COM30_Thu, 2 Feb 2006 10:36:31 -0800668_iso-8859-1 Sharon wrote: "Things that Steve forwards rarely make the cut".

I want you to know thatI am OK with that.

Steve



----- Original Message ----- From: Sharon_Gates@LONGBEACH.GOV To: HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2006 10:07 AM Subject: Re: Fw: Arab and Israeli mothers join forces for peace





I did not say it was OBVIOUS what its political orientation was. I said that the group had a political orientation. All I'm saying is to consider the source of anything you (I use the term generally) read. What is considered accurate by one person can and often is considered skewed by another. [...] 7518 87 65_To Sharon--Re: Fw: Arab and Israeli mothers join forces for peace12_Sue Liberman20_fiddlebach@YAHOO.COM30_Thu, 2 Feb 2006 10:42:36 -0800608_iso-8859-1 It's too bad you have "rushed to judgement" about this organization by "glancing" at their advisory board. Perosnally, I feel it is a distinguished and honorable list of Jewish community activists who are trying to bring to the press- the general press, that is- a greater understanding of Israel, and also to bring some clarity to the problems faced by both Palestinians and Israelis in the contmeporary climate of chaos and disturbance which exists there. I suggest you take some time to visit their website and read with some depth the bios and activities of their board of directors. Sue [...] 7606 396 11_Fw: support11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@SOCAL.RR.COM30_Thu, 2 Feb 2006 10:58:01 -0800462_- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.14.25/246 - Release Date: 1/30/2006





------------------------------------------------------------------------- The HABONET mailing list is hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org, a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 8003 40 67_Fw: Militants Surround EU Offices in Gaza Over 'Offensive' Cartoons11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@SOCAL.RR.COM30_Thu, 2 Feb 2006 13:27:11 -0800534_iso-8859-1 This is from Fox News, so the usual precautions should be in place if you are allergic.

Nonetheless, important stuff, and interesting to compare reactions to our own freedoms of expression. I remember cartoons of similar nature that didn't cause so much as a flutter.

Steve









> Militants Surround EU Offices in Gaza Over 'Offensive' Cartoons > FOX News > > > > Click on the URL below for the rest of this story: > http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,183551,00.html > [...] 8044 87 69_Re: To Sharon--Re: Fw: Arab and Israeli mothers join forces for peace0_15_DebALev@AOL.COM28_Thu, 2 Feb 2006 16:32:19 EST432_US-ASCII



In a message dated 2/2/06 10:43:53 AM Pacific Standard Time, fiddlebach@YAHOO.COM writes:

It's too bad you have "rushed to judgement" about this organization by "glancing" at their advisory board. Perosnally, I feel it is a distinguished and honorable list of Jewish community activists





Rick Santorum?? Sheesh. A corrupt, anti-choice, fundamentalist Catholic?? Evan Bayh? [...] 8132 85 62_To Deb--Re: Fw: Arab and Israeli mothers join forces for peace12_Sue Liberman20_fiddlebach@YAHOO.COM30_Thu, 2 Feb 2006 13:59:48 -0800682_iso-8859-1 Those people you mentioned are on their ADVISORY board along with a longer list of Senators...The Board of Directors includes the following- many of whom are strong Jewish community leaders: Michael C. Gelman, Chairman Jennifer Laszlo Mizrahi, Founder & President Sheryl J. Schwartz, Vice President & Treasurer Bobbie Goldstein, Chair, Press Ambassador Program Lennert J. Leader, TIP Executive Committee Joseph Meyerhoff II, TIP Executive Committee Arlene Bearman, Ph.D. Sheldon Bearman, M.D. Newton Becker Marc Cummins Nancy Epstein Seth A. Klarman Joseph Korff Michelle H. Leader Richard Levitt David Naftaly Karen Pack Abe Pollin Howard Rosenbloom Margo Volftsun [...] 8218 96 18_Re: Kinneret, too!11_Noam Stopak21_nstopak@STARPOWER.NET30_Thu, 2 Feb 2006 19:33:24 -0500580_iso-8859-1 Maybe they can pick up supplies at Walmart on their way... After gassing up at Exxon Mobil :-) ----- Original Message ----- From: Holtzer Family To: HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2006 10:13 AM Subject: Re: Kinneret, too!



In 1965, the KM Bet Rambler, under the leadership of Bruce Kutnick, went East and ended up with Kabbalat Shabbat around the toren (or what was left of it - not much) at Camp Kinneret. It was a stirring and emotional experience for all involved. I'm sure all Kinneret chevre will be welcomed at Tavor ........ [...] 8315 203 35_Re: Segev hits the nail on the head11_Noam Stopak21_nstopak@STARPOWER.NET30_Thu, 2 Feb 2006 19:33:58 -0500449_iso-8859-1 What "got my gut" was that the Washington Post was providing an uncritical platform for a propaganda piece that I found sickening in it's distortion of reality as I understand it. Seems of a piece with the general tendency of the Post to serve as apologist for Palestinians , regardless of their behavior(so many "human interest stories about families of bombers, while ignoring victims, etc), while criticizing Israel relentlessly. [...] 8519 58 48_[Fwd: History of Mosh Ken/Eizor -- help needed!]11_Judy Gelman16_gelman@EROLS.COM30_Thu, 2 Feb 2006 19:49:36 -0500941_ISO-8859-1 -------- Original Message -------- Subject: History of Mosh Ken/Eizor -- help needed! Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 11:08:12 -0500 From: Aviva Glaser To: henryyaffe@comcast.net CC: lfmarsh@verizon.net, judyl@hotmail.com, barbarapsotka@hotmail.com, dhurley1@comcast.net, rglaser@bethisrael-om.org, gelman@erols.com, cpristoo@bcpl.net, oritil@yahoo.com, RickGlaser@aol.com, moshava@aol.com, annigranni@webtv.net, lynngr@aol.com, judyp55@yahoo.com, jamie.beran@gmail.com, einatrefaeli@yahoo.com, Bmeiselm@umd.edu, sndrpearlman@yahoo.com, lisa.kleppel@verizon.net





Dear Camp Committee-

As you know, we are currently in the process of planning the upcoming Winter Mifgash at Pearlstone. In honor of Habonim's 70th anniversary, we are planning to spend some of the seminar talking about the history of Habonim. Specifically, we are going to run a peula looking at teh eizor, how it is [...] 8578 38 52_Re: [Fwd: History of Mosh Ken/Eizor -- help needed!]11_Sylvia Lask14_SMLBOV@AOL.COM28_Thu, 2 Feb 2006 22:29:39 EST432_US-ASCII Marc Hershkowitz lived in the bayit for a while. Contact him

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To unsubscribe email: HABONET-unsubscribe-request@SHAMASH.ORG 8617 76 30_Cartoons of the Prophet (PBUH)8_Jon Baum19_jonbaum@SASA.ORG.IL30_Fri, 3 Feb 2006 06:05:39 +0200591_US-ASCII If anyone is interested, the whole Mohammed cartoon business - which is rapidly getting out of hand - is covered thoroughly by the Telegraph.

http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/02/03/wcart 03.xml&sSheet=/news/2006/02/03/ixnewstop.html

Jon

------------------------------------------------------------------------- The HABONET mailing list is hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org, a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 8694 85 34_Re: Cartoons of the Prophet (PBUH)0_23_rdsmith1957@COMCAST.NET30_Fri, 3 Feb 2006 04:25:15 +0000402_- As someone who has been rather critical of those of you who have been somewhat dismissive of Arabs and Muslims let me say that those who think the printing of cartoons is a legitimate excuse for violence or even worth losing sleep over are going to be difficult to negotiate with. It would be ironic, I suppose, if it took a cartoon for Europe to understand the Arabs the way Jon wants them to. [...] 8780 49 34_Re: Cartoons of the Prophet (PBUH)8_Jon Baum19_jonbaum@SASA.ORG.IL30_Fri, 3 Feb 2006 07:03:12 +0200688_US-ASCII Ironic indeed! Who knows, Richard, perhaps even you might change your mind.

Have a good weekend.

Jon

-----Original Message----- From: Habonim Dror Alumni Virtual Machaneh [mailto:HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG] On Behalf Of rdsmith1957@COMCAST.NET Sent: Friday, February 03, 2006 6:25 AM To: HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG Subject: Re: Cartoons of the Prophet (PBUH)



As someone who has been rather critical of those of you who have been somewhat dismissive of Arabs and Muslims let me say that those who think the printing of cartoons is a legitimate excuse for violence or even worth losing sleep over are going to be difficult to negotiate with. It would be [...] 8830 56 38_Re: Noam's cheap shot & Kinneret, too!14_Holtzer Family20_carmdave@URIM.ORG.IL30_Fri, 3 Feb 2006 14:37:01 +0200476_iso-8859-1 Noam, if it wasn't Friday and I didn't think that you were joking, I would be very insulted at such a cheap jab. Besides, you can do better than that if you were serious. For your information, though, there used to be a K-Mart on the corner of 131 and Broadway, but it closed many years ago. However, there still is a A&W Root Beer place, altho it moves to business 131 north of the city. Get your Three Rivers Wildcat sweatshirts out of mothballs, chevre!!!! [...] 8887 112 38_Re: Noam's cheap shot & Kinneret, too!11_Noam Stopak21_nstopak@STARPOWER.NET30_Fri, 3 Feb 2006 08:12:15 -0500344_iso-8859-1

Good Shabbos Dave - the smiley on the end was there to provide clarity as to my intent. Have fun - the Mosh reunion a few years back was a blast!

Noam ----- Original Message ----- From: Holtzer Family To: HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG Sent: Friday, February 03, 2006 7:37 AM Subject: Re: Noam's cheap shot & Kinneret, too! [...] 9000 148 38_Re: Noam's cheap shot & Kinneret, too!14_aviva grosbard18_deang@BEZEQINT.NET30_Fri, 3 Feb 2006 15:24:05 +0200352_iso-8859-1 Will there be spoiled hot dogs to go with that root beer ???Like in 1964? "Heave er up and away we'll go-down into the baggie oh" Anyone else out there remember that one???? ----- Original Message ----- From: Holtzer Family To: HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG Sent: Friday, February 03, 2006 2:37 PM Subject: Re: Noam's cheap shot & Kinneret, too! [...] 9149 427 64_Why the Tavor Reunion is on June 9-11 2006? Mark Your Calendars!10_Dan Kanter20_kanter18@COMCAST.NET30_Fri, 3 Feb 2006 07:53:01 -0600424_us-ascii Heidi, Sheldon, Jessica and others,

Yes, the Tavor reunion committee specifically wants to punish people who made aliyah!

Seriously, a lot of consideration went into selection of a reunion date. Besides scheduling problems for Israelis many American chevre with school age children have graduations around June 10TH, not to mention that it is a popular weekend for Weddings and Bar/Bat Mitzvahs. [...] 9577 80 38_Re: Noam's cheap shot & Kinneret, too!14_Holtzer Family20_carmdave@URIM.ORG.IL30_Fri, 3 Feb 2006 17:59:02 +0200354_iso-8859-1 Have a dog, a red hot dog, add some nice kidney beans....................... If I remember correctly, Carmi Zag was one of the very, very few people not afflicted.

Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: aviva grosbard To: HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG Sent: Friday, February 03, 2006 3:24 PM Subject: Re: Noam's cheap shot & Kinneret, too! [...] 9658 170 38_Re: Noam's cheap shot & Kinneret, too!14_aviva grosbard18_deang@BEZEQINT.NET30_Fri, 3 Feb 2006 18:06:40 +0200434_iso-8859-1 Neither was I (affected) but the memory remains...along with Mr. Freeman's fried chicken and roving hands...and so many other memories. Its curious to me how few Tavor people ever show up here on Habonet-wasn't like we were a quiet bunch. I guess we can still claim Aliya as our own...but aside from that-pretty quiet on the Midwestern Front...Te-hila ve'shevach! and Shabbat shalom to you all-Aviva Lutsky (Grosbard) [...] 9829 207 38_Re: Noam's cheap shot & Kinneret, too!14_Holtzer Family20_carmdave@URIM.ORG.IL30_Fri, 3 Feb 2006 18:39:45 +0200527_iso-8859-1 Aviva,

Guess the Midwesterners are a quiet bunch, for the most part. Either that or they don't have the time or inclination to get into shouting matches that mean nothing, anyhow.

Ah, Mr Freeman, aka mr freehands....... I was told that the girls warned all new girls not to get trapped in the walk-in with him (the walk-in still exists, by the way - visited there last summer for a half day). He also was a partner when I was into fishing. He made a fried catfish that was fingerlicking good!!!!! [...] 10037 1156 14_Reply to Yuval16_Elihu D. Davison25_elihu.davison@VERIZON.NET30_Fri, 3 Feb 2006 11:57:20 -0500534_ISO-8859-1 In Habonet 2006-31, Yuval Warshai wrote

> Since I have just posted here a pretty long essay containing my own > views on the conflict and on the future of Israel (my reply to Noam, > under the thread "Segev hits the nail on the head"), and since a back > and forth on the historical details of the conflict will probably not > interest many people beyond me and you and a couple of other political > buffs, why don't we make it a little more straightforward and to the > point. It is apparent from what I wrote [...] 11194 377 38_Re: Noam's cheap shot & Kinneret, too!14_aviva grosbard18_deang@BEZEQINT.NET30_Fri, 3 Feb 2006 19:13:45 +0200407_iso-8859-1



I think catfish isn't kosher -but then neither are roving hands...I think I tend to agree with you on the shouting matches etc. and maybe we all have day jobs:)-so less free time to expound...take care Dave.Aviva ----- Original Message ----- From: Holtzer Family To: HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG Sent: Friday, February 03, 2006 6:39 PM Subject: Re: Noam's cheap shot & Kinneret, too! [...] 11572 69 24_Old Slogans New Bugbears12_amnon hadary22_gershon-keileh@013.NET30_Fri, 3 Feb 2006 21:05:45 +0200333_iso-8859-1 Decades ago (1923 for anyone writing a paper) Jabotinsky the head of the Revisionist extreme right and it's most intelligent ideologue published his seminal article THE IRON WALL. It starts out admirably if in patronizing tones his attitude to the Arabs (there were no Palestinians then.) Here are his opening lines: [...] 11642 61 38_Re: Noam's cheap shot & Kinneret, too!14_Holtzer Family20_carmdave@URIM.ORG.IL30_Fri, 3 Feb 2006 21:50:55 +0200560_iso-8859-1 No, catfish is not kosher, but certainly a staple of Southern cooking. If you ever get a chance to see the redneck cookbook, or trailertrash cookbook, both have great catfish recipies. Anyhow, Kaiser Lake was once stocked with largemouth bass, back in the 30's when the camp was used as a summer retreat by the Democratic Party in Chicago (the white tzrif was built by them). I was coached by Walt, the caretaker, on the best way to catch bass on the lake and got some great fishin done there and Mr Freeman joined me in the culinary aspect of [...] 11704 37 10_FW: Grofit12_Alex Sharone22_mazkir@HABONIMDROR.ORG30_Fri, 3 Feb 2006 15:54:03 -0500436_windows-1250 Can anyone help with this at all?



From: JBPlaut@aol.com Date: Wed Jan 25 16:24:53 CST 2006 To: programs@habonimdror.org Subject: (no subject)

HelloI was in the?30th workshop on kibbutz grofit in the arava.I',m interested in returning to grofit with my son for a visit at the end of 2008, and cannot find grofit anywhere on th internet. any info you can send me would be great. thanks! jessica b. plaut 11742 42 14_Re: FW: Grofit11_Don Goelman25_don.goelman@VILLANOVA.EDU30_Fri, 3 Feb 2006 16:06:17 -0500539_windows-1250 Try:

http://www.ardom.co.il/heilot/grofit/grofit.htm

Alex Sharone wrote:

>Can anyone help with this at all? > > >From: JBPlaut@aol.com >Date: Wed Jan 25 16:24:53 CST 2006 >To: programs@habonimdror.org >Subject: (no subject) > >HelloI was in the?30th workshop on kibbutz grofit in the arava.I',m >interested in returning to grofit with my son for a visit at the end of >2008, and cannot find grofit anywhere on th internet. any info you can send >me would be great. thanks! jessica b. plaut > > > > > [...] 11785 232 38_Re: Noam's cheap shot & Kinneret, too!5_aviva21_aviva5675@COMCAST.NET30_Fri, 3 Feb 2006 17:02:38 -0600666_iso-8859-1 I think there's probably more of us Tavorniks here lurking than you realize!

Aviva Sherman Boggs ----- Original Message ----- From: aviva grosbard To: HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG Sent: Friday, February 03, 2006 10:06 AM Subject: Re: Noam's cheap shot & Kinneret, too!



Neither was I (affected) but the memory remains...along with Mr. Freeman's fried chicken and roving hands...and so many other memories. Its curious to me how few Tavor people ever show up here on Habonet-wasn't like we were a quiet bunch. I guess we can still claim Aliya as our own...but aside from that-pretty quiet on the Midwestern Front...Te-hila ve'shevach! and [...] 12018 217 26_Re: Dave's wide open setup11_Noam Stopak21_nstopak@STARPOWER.NET30_Fri, 3 Feb 2006 18:09:04 -0500374_iso-8859-1 And it's not like we don't hear from Ken and Dave on a regular basis...

Can we leave my name out of it now?

Aviva - best to you and Rachel and Shoshana too

Shabbat shalom,

Noam ----- Original Message ----- From: aviva To: HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG Sent: Friday, February 03, 2006 6:02 PM Subject: Re: Noam's cheap shot & Kinneret, too! [...] 12236 198 38_Re: Noam's cheap shot & Kinneret, too!0_14_kbob24@AOL.COM30_Fri, 3 Feb 2006 18:29:23 -0500407_us-ascii Let's face it, there are more people lurking than participating!

Shabbat Shalom L'Kulam,

Ken Bob Tavor, Minneapolis Berkeley (and worked at Gilboa as a Shaliach in LA) Machaneh Bonim a bunch of times

-----Original Message----- From: aviva To: HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG Sent: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 17:02:38 -0600 Subject: Re: Noam's cheap shot & Kinneret, too! [...] 12435 297 26_Re: Dave's wide open setup14_aviva grosbard18_deang@BEZEQINT.NET30_Sat, 4 Feb 2006 01:52:15 +0200346_iso-8859-1 Dont know who Rachel and Shohana are,,,,and dont recall any name calling either Noam-but if I ever run into them-will be sure to give em your best. Aviva (I live in Omer-in Israel) ----- Original Message ----- From: Noam Stopak To: HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2006 1:09 AM Subject: Re: Dave's wide open setup [...] 12733 44 61_Re: [QUAR] Tavor Reunion-June 9-11, 2006 Mark Your Calendars!0_14_Ohanka@AOL.COM28_Fri, 3 Feb 2006 22:46:24 EST594_US-ASCII Dear Jessie and Heidi especially, I just finished reading Danny's explanation for Tavor choosing its dates for their reunion. We also don't mean to make it hard for Israeli's to attend. I must admit that we didn't ask ourselves how to make it easier for you, or when the school year began. But we have justification for it that may dissipate some of your anger. At Galil we were trying to develop an idea for utilizing machaneh separate from the regular camping season. We thought that creating a post-machaneh "family camp" for children and parents might be an attractive option [...] 12778 603 18_Re: Reply to Elihu13_Yuval Warshai20_warshy@SBCGLOBAL.NET30_Sat, 4 Feb 2006 00:59:36 -0500499_iso-8859-1 Dear Elihu,

Thanks a lot for your thoughtful reply. I am sorry, and I sincerely apologize if my tone sounded "impudent, arrogant, sanctimonious, strident and rude." That was not my intention in the least, and I apologize if it struck you in the negative manner you describe.

Neither was my intention to act as "Commissar of Political Correctness [... or] chief inquisitor." I am sorry again and I sincerely apologize if that is how my questions to you were understood. [...] 13382 61 14_A Lazy Shabbat12_Sue Liberman20_fiddlebach@YAHOO.COM30_Sat, 4 Feb 2006 12:41:24 -0800610_iso-8859-1 I was lying in bed watching "Driving Miss Daisy" this morning (my "temple" is the movie screen)...and I was suddenly overwhelmed by the beauty of dissolving shots of cherry blossoms in the spring in the Atlanta of the story, of the unbelievable warmth of the friendship between a senior black man and an elderly, lonely smart Jewish mother, and the contrast of our contemporary world. There seems to be so much "brouhaha" lately- the brouhah aover cartoons, people being trampled in Mecca and the Phillipines, men grabbing necklaces off of little girls' necks ( in LA), sexual predators on the [...] 13444 163 51_Nobody Suffers Like Us was Old Slogans New Bugbears12_amnon hadary22_gershon-keileh@013.NET30_Sat, 4 Feb 2006 22:57:02 +0200556_windows-1255 Haverot/im I was having trouble with my server (Eudora) so I don't know if this message went through already. If it did, meah culpa - even matayim. This resend is in Outlook. Have you noticed? We wallow in suffering; it is our leprosy and our crown. There is no suffering like Jewish suffering. Adding insult to injury,it took us 60 years after the Holocaust to be granted the prize for world suffering by the United Nations. In a frenzy of backlash at holocaust deniers Jewish patriots are zealous at getting the goyim's pound of flesh. [...] 13608 1269 27_Fw: BERNARD LEWIS INTERVIEW13_Pearl Skolnik25_pskolnik@NETVISION.NET.IL30_Sat, 4 Feb 2006 21:19:56 +0200463_windows-1255 Yediot Ahronot Sabbath Supplement Friday 3-2-06 page 24-25 by Ofer Shalach

Yediot Ahronot Sabbath Supplement Friday 3-2-06 page 24-25 by Ofer Shalach





HUDNA YES

PEACE, NEVER





"The Hudna Can Endure For Years, But The Violence Will Return *

Peace, As We Understand It Is Not Possible From A Religious Perspective *

Hamas Is In Shock Following Winning Governance * Suicide Is [...] 14878 103 38_Re: Noam's cheap shot & Kinneret, too!19_Aliya Cheskis-Cotel13_sc523@AOL.COM30_Sun, 5 Feb 2006 00:55:16 -0500 14982 238 38_Re: Noam's cheap shot & Kinneret, too!14_Holtzer Family20_carmdave@URIM.ORG.IL30_Sun, 5 Feb 2006 08:09:03 +0200428_ISO-8859-1 Ok - I remember that I had to go down the hill to get to the BK, so it meant 65 as I was in KM Bet that year and our shetach was on Shabbat Hill..........Ahhh, the memories. By the way, Aliya, the water still tastes the same.

Dave

----- Original Message ----- From: Aliya Cheskis-Cotel To: HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2006 7:55 AM Subject: Re: Noam's cheap shot & Kinneret, too! [...] 15221 165 38_Re: Noam's cheap shot & Kinneret, too!19_Aliya Cheskis-Cotel13_sc523@AOL.COM30_Sun, 5 Feb 2006 02:23:05 -0500 15387 163 34_Re: Cartoons of the Prophet (PBUH)12_Jessica Bonn21_jessicab@BEZEQINT.NET30_Sun, 5 Feb 2006 10:41:27 +0200603_ISO-8859-1 Cartoons of the Prophet (PBUH)The amazing thing about this link, Jon, is that you can go through infinite regressions of links and never actually see the cartoons. I can't find them!!! Is the Telegraph looking out for its own interests at the expense of free speech??? The fragility of free speech is astounding to me, as I consider just the recent non-representative sample of the NASA intimidation story on the one hand and the prophet uproar (and related Islamic threats to freedom of expression). And at the other extreme, there is the over leniency in the US interpretation of free [...] 15551 268 34_Re: Cartoons of the Prophet (PBUH)8_Jon Baum19_jonbaum@SASA.ORG.IL30_Sun, 5 Feb 2006 10:55:16 +0200625_us-ascii Jessie, you - and everyone else - can view the cartoons here:

http://www.humaneventsonline.com/sarticle.php?id=12146

American and British newspapers have decided not to run these cartoons, leaving the defense of free speech, embarrassingly enough, to certain European papers. The web these days is awash with opinions on the issue of free speech vs.. respect for religion. My feeling has always been that in a society with free speech you have the right to be offended. One has to ask oneself if images of a religion are banned or censured, how long will it be until words get the same treatment. [...] 15820 314 34_Fw: Cartoons of the Prophet (PBUH)12_Jessica Bonn21_jessicab@BEZEQINT.NET30_Sun, 5 Feb 2006 11:01:30 +0200380_ISO-8859-1 Message Todah. He (PBUH - sallalleihiwaaleihilsalam, as they say) is looking quite, er, Moishe-dik in that one on the bottom right... ----- Original Message ----- From: Jon Baum To: HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2006 10:55 AM Subject: Re: Cartoons of the Prophet (PBUH)



Jessie, you - and everyone else - can view the cartoons here: [...] 16135 399 34_Re: Cartoons of the Prophet (PBUH)8_Jon Baum19_jonbaum@SASA.ORG.IL30_Sun, 5 Feb 2006 11:08:37 +0200499_us-ascii This is a good one too:

http://yosemite-sam.net/Sam/Cartoons/Sahara-Hare-09.JPG



-----Original Message----- From: Habonim Dror Alumni Virtual Machaneh [mailto:HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG] On Behalf Of Jessica Bonn Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2006 11:02 AM To: HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG Subject: Fw: Cartoons of the Prophet (PBUH)





Todah. He (PBUH - sallalleihiwaaleihilsalam, as they say) is looking quite, er, Moishe-dik in that one on the bottom right... [...] 16535 347 38_Re: Noam's cheap shot & Kinneret, too!14_Holtzer Family20_carmdave@URIM.ORG.IL30_Sun, 5 Feb 2006 12:08:46 +0200580_ISO-8859-1 Sure I remember that, Aliya. CRS is rapidly advancing, but the long term memories are still there. Also "breaking" Al London's ass the night before Rambler.....And Bob Elman's electric eye early warning madrich alarm that was intercepted by Lisa Fenster and delivered the last night at camp.... and the broom fight, etc. You and your braces, poor thing. Wish I could come to the reunion. I was there in 2000 and had a great time. BTW, better make your motel revervations early. In 2000 there was some fair/festival and a lot of people ended up in Mendon at a B&B. [...] 16883 98 34_Re: Cartoons of the Prophet (PBUH)11_Judy Gelman16_gelman@EROLS.COM30_Sun, 5 Feb 2006 10:13:49 -0500648_ISO-8859-1 Many inhabitants of Arab countries don't understand the concept of freedom of the press. Their own experience is that anything printed in a newspaper is sanctioned by the government and they assume it is like that everywhere. The Islamic fundamentalist on the street and his extremist Imam do not understand that these cartoons were not sanctioned or reviewed by the the governments of Denmark or Norway prior to publication. Therefore they are attacking the embassies because they think the government insulted them by allowing the publication of these cartoons. The concept of a free, uncensored press is outside their experience [...] 16982 77 8_Fw: Fury12_Doug Greener25_ddwgreen@NETVISION.NET.IL30_Sun, 5 Feb 2006 17:53:02 +0200563_iso-8859-1 Here are some of the caricatures going around, passed on by a friend.

----- Original Message ----- From: Wendy Zohar To: Undisclosed recipients Sent: Friday, February 03, 2006 8:55 PM Subject: Fury



For anyone curious to see, here they are, all twelve of them, creating all the hysteria. I can't help myself; I find this tremendously entertaining that this should be the issue that enlightens the West. Indeed, it is also terribly important. W. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- [...] 17060 24 28_Jack Lambert's greatest hits8_Jon Baum19_jonbaum@SASA.ORG.IL30_Sun, 5 Feb 2006 19:11:05 +0200490_us-ascii On a completely different subject - and in honor of the Superbowl - here's a clip of the great #58. Enjoy:

http://media.putfile.com/Steelers---Jack-Lambert-Tribute

Jon

------------------------------------------------------------------------- The HABONET mailing list is hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org, a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 17085 15 34_Re: Cartoons of the Prophet (PBUH)0_23_rdsmith1957@COMCAST.NET30_Sun, 5 Feb 2006 17:30:51 +0000433_- Come now Judy, don't you think the Arabs in Gaza and the West Bank have enough experience with Israel to know what a free press is?

------------------------------------------------------------------------- The HABONET mailing list is hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org, a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 17101 48 34_Re: Cartoons of the Prophet (PBUH)11_Judy Gelman16_gelman@EROLS.COM30_Sun, 5 Feb 2006 12:47:17 -0500586_ISO-8859-1 I really don't know how much the average Palestinian really understands the Israeli free press, which most don't read. I do know from talking to WB Palestinians that many of them are extremely very suspicious of the Israeli press and think that the government controls them far more than can possibly be the case.. They think everything is manipulated by Israel--why not the press? But in Gaza and the WB, I think there is something else also going on. It is an opportune chance for Hamas to show the scary strength of the Islamists. But torching the EU buildings isn't [...] 17150 228 34_Re: Cartoons of the Prophet (PBUH)12_amnon hadary22_gershon-keileh@013.NET30_Sun, 5 Feb 2006 16:26:35 +0200633_ISO-8859-1 Cartoons of the Prophet (PBUH)Jessica, My original nomination still stands. But to look to your laurels it's valid for a one year period.

Amnon ----- Original Message ----- From: Jessica Bonn To: HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2006 10:41 AM Subject: Re: Cartoons of the Prophet (PBUH)



The amazing thing about this link, Jon, is that you can go through infinite regressions of links and never actually see the cartoons. I can't find them!!! Is the Telegraph looking out for its own interests at the expense of free speech??? The fragility of free speech is astounding to me, as I [...] 17379 287 34_Re: Cartoons of the Prophet (PBUH)12_Jessica Bonn21_jessicab@BEZEQINT.NET30_Sun, 5 Feb 2006 20:47:24 +0200353_iso-8859-1 Cartoons of the Prophet (PBUH)What are you talking about? ----- Original Message ----- From: amnon hadary To: HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2006 4:26 PM Subject: Re: Cartoons of the Prophet (PBUH)



Jessica, My original nomination still stands. But to look to your laurels it's valid for a one year period. [...] 17667 24 34_Re: Cartoons of the Prophet (PBUH)14_Holtzer Family20_carmdave@URIM.ORG.IL30_Sun, 5 Feb 2006 22:21:07 +0200599_ISO-8859-1 I understand that Muslims the world around are rioting and demonstrating........ and Muslims never drew cartoons about other religions???? Let's go, all you cyber-surfers, and start digging up some dirt from the other side and sending them to every newspaper you can think of.

dave

------------------------------------------------------------------------- The HABONET mailing list is hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org, a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 17692 24 37_Mazal tov to our chevre in Pittsburgh12_Sue Liberman20_fiddlebach@YAHOO.COM30_Sun, 5 Feb 2006 19:08:37 -0800543_iso-8859-1 Mazal tov- great game, some bad calls!-- (It happens in tennis too!)...sue

__________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------------------------------------------------- The HABONET mailing list is hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org, a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 17717 40 34_Re: Cartoons of the Prophet (PBUH)19_lfmarsh@verizon.net19_lfmarsh@VERIZON.NET30_Sun, 5 Feb 2006 21:52:34 -0600721_us-ascii i have an old book from the sifriah at mosh. it is a book of anti-semetic and political cartoons written in the 60s.



>From: Holtzer Family >Date: Sun Feb 05 14:21:07 CST 2006 >To: HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG >Subject: Re: Cartoons of the Prophet (PBUH)

>I understand that Muslims the world around are rioting and >demonstrating........ and Muslims never drew cartoons about other >religions???? Let's go, all you cyber-surfers, and start digging up some >dirt from the other side and sending them to every newspaper you can think >of. > > dave > >------------------------------------------------------------------------- >The HABONET mailing list is hosted by >Shamash: [...] 17758 75 34_Re: Cartoons of the Prophet (PBUH)12_Sue Liberman20_fiddlebach@YAHOO.COM30_Sun, 5 Feb 2006 21:11:40 -0800611_iso-8859-1 Maybe you could scan them in and we can see then- but be careful, GW is watching you!!! ... :)...sue

--- "lfmarsh@verizon.net" wrote:

> i have an old book from the sifriah at mosh. it is a > book of anti-semetic and political cartoons written > in the 60s. > > > >From: Holtzer Family > >Date: Sun Feb 05 14:21:07 CST 2006 > >To: HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG > >Subject: Re: Cartoons of the Prophet (PBUH) > > >I understand that Muslims the world around are > rioting and > >demonstrating........ and Muslims never drew > cartoons about other > [...] 17834 1065 15_Tavor nostagia!10_Dan Kanter20_kanter18@COMCAST.NET30_Sun, 5 Feb 2006 23:46:07 -0600475_us-ascii As for the Reunion: We have 20 rooms reserved at the Holiday Inn for the reunion. There are now 4 hotels in Three Rivers, but last minute people could still be scrambling.

A few years I was schmoozing with one of our volunteer camp nurses, a recent Tavor parent, and with a knowing look in her eye she says to me "I have heard all about how wild it was here in the Sixties, wasn't it?" alluding to sex, drugs and rock and roll, so prevalent in that era. [...] 18900 466 19_Re: Tavor nostagia!14_Paul Fingerman29_paul.fingerman@MINDSPRING.COM30_Sun, 5 Feb 2006 22:03:24 -0800530_us-ascii Sorry -- maybe potato chip and root beer theft was a big deal in the late 60s, but in the early 60s we went after ice cream!

Paul

At 09:46 PM 2/5/2006, you wrote: >As for the Reunion: We have 20 rooms reserved at the Holiday Inn for >the reunion. There are now 4 hotels in Three Rivers, but last >minute people could still be scrambling. > >A few years I was schmoozing with one of our volunteer camp nurses, >a recent Tavor parent, and with a knowing look in her eye she says >to me "I have heard all [...] 19367 416 19_Re: Tavor nostagia!19_Aliya Cheskis-Cotel13_sc523@AOL.COM30_Mon, 6 Feb 2006 02:04:14 -0500 19784 329 15_Re Paradise Now13_Moshe Sheskin23_moshe.sheskin@GMAIL.COM30_Mon, 6 Feb 2006 11:02:27 +0200648_UTF-8 Chaverim, I just received the following e-mail which I believe should be widely distributed. Moshe Sheskin Please help distribute the article, about "Paradise Now" winning the Golden Globe ========================================= Last night the Palestinian movie "Paradise Now" won the Golden Globe award. The movie shows the route that two young Palestinians take to become suicide murderers, up until the minute they board a bus in Tel Aviv filled with children. The movie looks professional. It was made with great attention to detail, but it is extremely dangerous ג€" not only to the Middle East, but to the whole world. My son [...] 20114 67 14_Tavor memories14_Holtzer Family20_carmdave@URIM.ORG.IL30_Mon, 6 Feb 2006 12:29:41 +0200449_windows-1255 Jeez - we could write a book with all the memories from those days, and everyone remembers something different. Like, the best cure for chapped lips is kissing........ (send in $5 and I'll tell you which member of staff said that, when and where).

Anyhow, Danny, there were no drugs at Midwest Camp Habonim, and only introduced much later (probably by those elements so aptly described by Aliya from Na'aleh) at Tavor...... [...] 20182 202 19_Re: Tavor nostagia!14_Holtzer Family20_carmdave@URIM.ORG.IL30_Mon, 6 Feb 2006 12:17:37 +0200447_iso-8859-1 Jeez - we could write a book with all the memories from those days, and everyone remembers something different. Like, the best cure for chapped lips is kissing........ (send in $5 and I'll tell you which member of staff said that, when and where).

Anyhow, Danny, there were no drugs at Midwest Camp Habonim, and only introduced much later (probably by those elements so aptly described by Aliya from Na'aleh) at Tavor...... [...] 20385 230 31_[QUAR] HaAretz - Likud Campaign16_Elihu D. Davison25_elihu.davison@VERIZON.NET30_Sun, 5 Feb 2006 21:07:06 -0500379_us-ascii This story reminds me of the punch line to the old joke: "Bibi can only fuck up." If he loses again, look for him to retire from politics again and move to New York. Maybe he'll be the GOP candidate against Hillary.



w w w . h a a r e t z . c o m ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Last update - 02:01 05/02/2006 [...] 20616 169 18_Re: Tavor memories14_aviva grosbard18_deang@BEZEQINT.NET30_Mon, 6 Feb 2006 14:56:03 +0200500_windows-1255 The guy on that blanket had to reek from English Leather and or Right Guard and the air had to smell like mosquito spray from the infamous fogger.Then and only then did you have a chance to get to second base with your Saturday night sweetie of the week to the strains of Zurcoff and Sarnat's amazing guitars.Windmill cookies anyone???? Aviva ----- Original Message ----- From: Holtzer Family To: HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG Sent: Monday, February 06, 2006 12:29 PM Subject: Tavor memories [...] 20786 83 61_Re: [QUAR] Tavor Reunion-June 9-11, 2006 Mark Your Calendars!17_Sheldon and Heidi21_shelheid@ACTCOM.CO.IL30_Mon, 6 Feb 2006 16:05:53 +0200539_us-ascii Hank - A million and a half years ago, little Heidi, Josh and Laurie went with their parents to Galil around Labor Day (along with little Dena and Esther) and had an unbelievable time at their special place while the old folks were having sichot about politics and stuff. It lasted for enough years for me to believe that Galil was created for mine and Dena's fantasy world. In fact, it might be part of what I tried to recreate for my children here at Gezer where we also have a kikar and a pool and little houses (no toren [...] 20870 84 34_Re: Cartoons of the Prophet (PBUH)17_Sheldon and Heidi21_shelheid@ACTCOM.CO.IL30_Mon, 6 Feb 2006 16:32:26 +0200575_us-ascii I don't get it. Let's say that the various Muslims committing and encouraging the violence did understand freedom of the press and so only attacked, threatened, or whatever the actual writer and editorial page editor. How is this better? Also - and I agree that there is confusion on the part of people who have not had the opportunity to experience freedom of the press - how can anyone actually believe that a Dane, for instance, who is in Gaza or the WB for what we assume are probably ideological or political reasons- had anything to do with the cartoons? [...] 20955 65 34_Re: Cartoons of the Prophet (PBUH)19_lfmarsh@verizon.net19_lfmarsh@VERIZON.NET30_Mon, 6 Feb 2006 08:57:29 -0600 21021 62 34_Re: Cartoons of the Prophet (PBUH)0_13_JLCAA@AOL.COM28_Mon, 6 Feb 2006 11:35:58 EST477_US-ASCII I understand why a devote Muslim would find a depiction of the Prophet Mohammed offensive, just as I understand why an Orthodox Jew might find a depiction of God offensive (they would also find "God" written in full rather then G-d offensive).

On the other hand, we find the naming of Palestinian schools after suicide bombers (shaheeds) offensive, or the fact that the Protocols of the Elders of Zion is a best seller throughout the Arab world offensive. [...] 21084 52 42_The angst of the Islamic collective psyche12_Sue Liberman20_fiddlebach@YAHOO.COM30_Mon, 6 Feb 2006 10:05:21 -0800569_iso-8859-1 I don't think - and I may be totally off-base in this- that the outbursts reagrding the cartoosn are really about the cartoons, but rather an explosion of the "collective" ISlamic psyche against the West, and its values, and the imposition the west has casued on basic Islamic fundamentalism. Know that to be an Arab in today's world is to be "marked" as (1) a possible terrorist; or (2) someone who is suspiscious and (3) backwards and full of hate. I hear it all of the time in my work...I really feel badly for those who are innocent individuals and [...] 21137 81 8_cartoons16_Elihu D. Davison25_elihu.davison@VERIZON.NET30_Mon, 6 Feb 2006 13:17:18 -0500703_us-ascii Judy Gelman notes, correctly, that many in the Islamic Arab world may incorrectly believe that the satirical parody cartoons of Muhammed may reflect the policies of European governments. Correct, as I say, but in this instance neither adequate nor sufficient.

There is little in the contemporary Islamic tradition that allows or supports the notion of critical interpretive studies. So notwithstanding individual clerical rulings, there is little or no tolerance. This applies especially to perceived criticisms or satire from outside of Islam. This explains why Khomeini could, with impunity, issue a fatwa against Salmon Rushdie's altogether pareve book Satanic Verses. Moreover, [...] 21219 222 46_Re: The angst of the Islamic collective psyche8_Jon Baum19_jonbaum@SASA.ORG.IL30_Mon, 6 Feb 2006 20:18:31 +0200665_us-ascii What are they going to do about the Muslims in Europe? Put them in ghettos?

-----Original Message----- From: Habonim Dror Alumni Virtual Machaneh [mailto:HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG] On Behalf Of Sue Liberman Sent: Monday, February 06, 2006 8:05 PM To: HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG Subject: The angst of the Islamic collective psyche



I don't think - and I may be totally off-base in this- that the outbursts reagrding the cartoosn are really about the cartoons, but rather an explosion of the "collective" ISlamic psyche against the West, and its values, and the imposition the west has casued on basic Islamic fundamentalism. Know that to be an [...] 21442 155 12_Re: cartoons8_Jon Baum19_jonbaum@SASA.ORG.IL30_Mon, 6 Feb 2006 20:52:14 +0200392_us-ascii True enough Elihu. Plus we get the self-parody of death threats and mob violence against anyone who dares to imply that Islam is a violent religion.

Jon

-----Original Message----- From: Habonim Dror Alumni Virtual Machaneh [mailto:HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG] On Behalf Of Elihu D. Davison Sent: Monday, February 06, 2006 8:17 PM To: HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG Subject: cartoons [...] 21598 217 19_Re: Re Paradise Now0_26_Sharon_Gates@LONGBEACH.GOV30_Mon, 6 Feb 2006 10:57:54 -0800520_Windows-1255 It appears that a lack of understanding of the concept of "freedom of expression" is not limited to Muslims. The unnamed author of the piece that Moshe forwarded also does not appear to appreciate the difference between understanding something and agreeing with it.

Sharon









Moshe Sheskin Sent by: Habonim Dror Alumni Virtual Machaneh 02/06/2006 01:02 AM Please respond to Habonim Dror Alumni Virtual Machaneh [...] 21816 156 19_Re: Re Paradise Now12_Sue Liberman20_fiddlebach@YAHOO.COM30_Mon, 6 Feb 2006 12:03:05 -0800569_iso-8859-1 Shame on you, Sharon, for not understanding that this was an emotional reaction from a father who lost a son, and who, rightly so, can not understand the action of rewarding the concept of suicide bombers with accolades of artisitc merit. I saw the film, and was torn also...but I understand his beautifully and powerfully written outcry and also the source from which it came. I also received it earlier, and we are printing it in our paper as an Op Ed.....By the way- the piece was written by Yossi Zur, whose son, Assaf, was killed on March 5, 2003, [...] 21973 84 34_Re: Cartoons of the Prophet (PBUH)0_15_DebALev@AOL.COM28_Mon, 6 Feb 2006 15:48:19 EST544_US-ASCII I recently saw a blog--and am trying to find it again--that said, since the cartoons in question appeared in September, there is another explanation for the reaction against them.

It said that the rioting was instigated by Saudi Arabia as a direct result of the hundreds who were killed during the Hajj. Instead of providing enough security to prevent, or even just mitigate, the Hajj violence that happens every year, Saudi Arabia sought to deflect attention from that by focusing Muslims on something else, the cartoons. [...] 22058 193 55_Bereavement is not a knighthood was Re: Re Paradise Now12_amnon hadary22_gershon-keileh@013.NET30_Mon, 6 Feb 2006 22:53:53 +0200420_iso-8859-1 This nation (read list) can not exist half shaming and half refusing to be brow beaten. After Oren fell in the Yom Kippur War I was saddened by a number of organizations claiming that only the bereaved had a right to express an opinion on war and peace. At that time Hiam asked whether someone who had lost two soldiers should have the right to speak more than parents who lost only one daughter or son. [...] 22252 22 42_Re: Cartoons of the Prophet & Paradise Now11_Noam Stopak21_nstopak@STARPOWER.NET30_Mon, 6 Feb 2006 15:56:13 -0500612_- I get it - "the Saudi's did it" is the new catch all. Sounds vaguely familiar. What's next? "The Protocols of the Elders if Islam"?

Are we falling into the trap that Jon alluded to when he asked about ghettos?

And Sue, why not address Sharon's point without the personal accussations?

Noam

------------------------------------------------------------------------- The HABONET mailing list is hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org, a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 22275 182 34_Re: Cartoons of the Prophet (PBUH)0_15_DebALev@AOL.COM28_Mon, 6 Feb 2006 16:01:54 EST525_US-ASCII Here's that blog......

Muslim Cartoon Controversy: What the Media Isn't Telling You

Flogging the Simian, February 5, 2006

http://www.weblog.ro/soj/2006-02-05/Muslim+Cartoon+Controversy%3A+What+the+Med ia+Isn%27t+Telling+You.html#66675

I had a friend over today who lives out of town and we switched on the traditional news media television and saw what most of you have probably seen - angry rioters protesting, burning flags and attacking various Danish embassies around the world. [...] 22458 104 25_The last word on Wal-Mart0_14_LHIAM1@AOL.COM28_Mon, 6 Feb 2006 16:08:35 EST547_US-ASCII To put everything into perspective

Wal-Mart announced that they will soon be offering customers a new discount item: Wal-Mart's own brand of wine. The world's largest retail chain is teaming up with E&J Gallo Winery of California to produce the spirits at an affordable price, in the $2-$5 range.

Wine connoisseurs may not be inclined to throw a bottle of Wal-Mart brand into their shopping carts, but "there is a market for cheap wine", said Kathy Micken, VP of Marketing. She said, "But the right name is important." [...] 22563 426 19_Re: Re Paradise Now0_26_Sharon_Gates@LONGBEACH.GOV30_Mon, 6 Feb 2006 13:25:28 -0800419_iso-8859-1 Precisely because the supposed author of this piece has such a strong emotional connection to the issue, he should recuse himself from commenting on the artistic merit of the movie. I say "supposed" not to cast aspersions but because the article came without attribution. The man is entitled to have an emotional reaction and I sympathize with him for his loss. But loss does not give one carte blance. [...] 22990 64 42_Re: Cartoons of the Prophet & Paradise Now11_Judy Gelman16_gelman@EROLS.COM30_Mon, 6 Feb 2006 16:33:16 -0500625_ISO-8859-1 These demonstrations may have gotten out of hand by whoever planned them, but they are not completely spontaneous.

I heard a professor from Lebanon talking about it on BBC's "The World". According to him, the most violent of the protestors in Lebanon were bussed in from Tripoli. His theory is that Syria recruited the protesters in order to demonstrate the weakness and ineffectiveness of the Lebanese security forces since they have been forced out. There were other experts talking about why these demonstrations served different interests in a variety of countries. I was in and out of the car and [...] 23055 132 16_Re: Paradise Now0_14_LHIAM1@AOL.COM28_Mon, 6 Feb 2006 17:50:11 EST539_US-ASCII



In a message dated 2/6/2006 4:35:03 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, Sharon_Gates@LONGBEACH.GOV writes:

Precisely because the supposed author of this piece has such a strong emotional connection to the issue, he should recuse himself from commenting on the artistic merit of the movie. I say "supposed" not to cast aspersions but because the article came without attribution. The man is entitled to have an emotional reaction and I sympathize with him for his loss. But loss does not give one carte blance. [...] 23188 136 16_Re: Paradise Now0_26_Sharon_Gates@LONGBEACH.GOV30_Mon, 6 Feb 2006 15:19:42 -0800582_us-ascii I am not unhappy with people expressing their opinions. The author of the article in question was talking about the artistic merit of the film. His emotional connection with the issues prohibited him from making an objective artistic assessment. I was not unhappy with the Israel Project. I never said my opinion either way--I just pointed out some of the people who were associated with the project. I would never take away anyone's right to comment. But I also reserve my own right to do what I want with other people's opinions. How that puts me in league with the [...] 23325 93 16_Re: Paradise Now0_23_rdsmith1957@COMCAST.NET30_Mon, 6 Feb 2006 23:31:25 +0000516_- What Hiam seems to forget, is that the whole issue of this movie was discussed on this list a few weeks ago with one of our number simply describing the award given to this film as a tragedy. It was pointed out then, by at least one list member and by the NY Times review which I sent in that the idea that the film glorifies terrorism is not at all the only way of interpreting the film. The complaints about this film, in both the original post and in the suspicious letter sent by the "parent" of a victim [...] 23419 115 16_Re: Paradise Now12_Sue Liberman20_fiddlebach@YAHOO.COM30_Mon, 6 Feb 2006 15:45:51 -0800576_iso-8859-1 Firstly- I would like ot thank Hiam for stating succinctly what I was thinking- I was going to "apologize" to Sharon- for publicly saying "shame on you"- but I won't now. Mainly because I don't think I have anything to apologise for. We need compassion in this world; we need more understanding and less cynicism; we need a recognition of other peoples' rights to express, and scream out ( but not to violate other's spaces or cultures or kill)-I also have been tormented by the situation of the film, and what it stands for, and the reactions by the artistic [...] 23535 523 16_Re: Paradise Now8_Jon Baum19_jonbaum@SASA.ORG.IL30_Tue, 7 Feb 2006 02:08:23 +0200665_US-ASCII Don't worry Sue. We'll be here. Jon

-----Original Message----- From: Habonim Dror Alumni Virtual Machaneh [mailto:HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG] On Behalf Of Sue Liberman Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2006 1:46 AM To: HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG Subject: Re: Paradise Now



Firstly- I would like ot thank Hiam for stating succinctly what I was thinking- I was going to "apologize" to Sharon- for publicly saying "shame on you"- but I won't now. Mainly because I don't think I have anything to apologise for. We need compassion in this world; we need more understanding and less cynicism; we need a recognition of other peoples' rights to express, and [...] 24059 32 61_Re: [QUAR] Tavor Reunion-June 9-11, 2006 Mark Your Calendars!0_14_Ohanka@AOL.COM28_Mon, 6 Feb 2006 20:52:53 EST570_US-ASCII In a message dated 2/6/06 9:04:40 AM, shelheid@ACTCOM.CO.IL writes:

<< Hank - A million and a half years ago, little Heidi, Josh and Laurie went with their parents to Galil around Labor Day (along with little Dena and Esther) and had an unbelievable time at their special place while the old folks were having sichot about politics and stuff. It lasted for enough years for me to believe that Galil was created for mine and Dena's fantasy world. In fact, it might be part of what I tried to recreate for my children here at Gezer where we also have [...] 24092 84 11_Re: Poverty0_17_Smfgrappa@AOL.COM28_Mon, 6 Feb 2006 21:00:31 EST302_US-ASCII In a message dated 01/26/2006 6:50:44 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, gelman@EROLS.COM writes:

All the old fabric stores are gone. The next closest one may be about 90 minutes away, in the next big town, and, for all I know, it may be a Wal-Mart too. It puts these values to the test. [...] 24177 64 61_Re: [QUAR] Tavor Reunion-June 9-11, 2006 Mark Your Calendars!12_Jessica Bonn21_jessicab@BEZEQINT.NET30_Tue, 7 Feb 2006 05:29:31 +0200616_ISO-8859-1 Mmmm, sweet. Of course, it was created for that, Heidi. Just makes me want to go even more, alas. In any case, Hank, 'anger' doesn't quite capture it - I'm not angry... just.... wistful and playing indignant. In any case, we're no wimps, Minkin and I. Despite this timing setback, we're still in for the fight, not abandoning the overall cause, and inspired by the words from so many evenings at the much loved, below-mentioned toren: Al yipol ruchachem, alizim mitronnim, bo'u schem echad l'ezrat ha'am (whatever that means (I mean, whatever 'ezrat ha'am' means today). So, tehila vshevach (woops!) [...] 24242 41 32_Wal-Mart-responding to criticism0_14_kbob24@AOL.COM30_Mon, 6 Feb 2006 22:39:31 -0500659_us-ascii Without getting into the boycott issue, according to this week's issue of Businessweek (yes, I read it), "the world's largest company has struggled to respond to critics of every stripe, from environmentalists to sweatshop activists." They are now recruiting for a "senior director of stakeholder engagement" to "help pioneer a new model of how Wal-mart works with outside stakeholders, resulting in fundamental changes in how the company does business." This person will report to the vice-president for corporate strategy. The question, of course, is how much this person will be allowed to introduce change. It does appear, that Wal-mart, is [...] 24284 701 12_How many?...13_Yuval Warshai20_warshy@SBCGLOBAL.NET30_Mon, 6 Feb 2006 22:50:36 -0500381_iso-8859-1 How many successful suicide bombings by the Islamic Jihad do you think Bibi, the Likud, and the religious settlers of the West Bank need, to be able to overturn the election results that are predicted right now, and steal the upcoming elections in the same manner they stole the elections back in May 1996, barely over 6 months after Yitzhak Rabin's assassination? [...] 24986 339 76_Have we Tavorniks always been the Country bumpkins of the National Movement?10_Dan Kanter20_kanter18@COMCAST.NET30_Mon, 6 Feb 2006 23:37:00 -0600577_us-ascii David, Aliya, Aviva, et al, In 1970 I went to Tel Ari for MB Chet to meet my National chevrah. We were about 85 chevre, in pretty even proportions from Tavor, Gilboa, Galil, Naaleh & Mosh. The Gilboa kids were like us Tavorniks. But the Naaleh, Galil, & Mosh kids were something else! They were more sexually active than we were, (we talked about having sex, they were having sex!) more experienced in recreational drug and alcohol use. They knew more about Borochov! They knew more than us about rock and folk music! The taught cool songs like "Sugar Mountain". [...] 25326 407 80_Re: Have we Tavorniks always been the Country bumpkins of the National Movement?8_Jon Baum19_jonbaum@SASA.ORG.IL30_Tue, 7 Feb 2006 09:41:01 +0200476_US-ASCII Hey Danny, how are you?

I don't think you should beat yourself up about how well-behaved the Midwest people were in our group. Although there were plenty of amused asides from the East Coast chevre about how friendly and wholesome the Tavorniks were compared to people from New York, Philly or Baltimore, or how Midwest girls didn't put out, the fact is that the East Coast group in MB Chet was a real bunch of degenerates, even by our own low standards. [...] 25734 111 22_Syria and the cartoons8_Jon Baum19_jonbaum@SASA.ORG.IL30_Tue, 7 Feb 2006 09:49:46 +0200620_US-ASCII From Stratfor.com





Syria: Taking Advantage of the Cartoon Controversy Summary

The controversy over the publication of cartoons depicting the Prophet Mohammed has rapidly developed into a strategic tool for countering Western intervention in the Muslim world. The Syrian regime used this tool Feb. 4-5, when thousands of demonstrators set Danish and Norwegian diplomatic offices ablaze in Damascus and Beirut. While Syria intended to use the cartoon riots as cover to exacerbate sectarian tensions in Lebanon, the weekend riots did not conceal Damascus' obvious political ploy. [...] 25846 114 34_Re: Cartoons of the Prophet (PBUH)17_Sheldon and Heidi21_shelheid@ACTCOM.CO.IL30_Tue, 7 Feb 2006 11:03:27 +0200467_us-ascii



No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.15.2/252 - Release Date: 06/02/2006

------------------------------------------------------------------------- The HABONET mailing list is hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org, a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 25961 20 13_Walmart Whine16_Elihu D. Davison25_elihu.davison@VERIZON.NET30_Tue, 7 Feb 2006 04:14:06 -0500465_ISO-8859-1 Haim neglected to include, in his litany of new & cheap varietals from WalMart, the blend now being produced for middle-aged incontinents: pinot-more. ;-)

------------------------------------------------------------------------- The HABONET mailing list is hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org, a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 25982 77 40_Fouad Ajami/ WSJ/ The Promise of Liberty11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@MJDS.ORG30_Tue, 7 Feb 2006 05:51:41 -0600618_ISO-8859-1 The Promise of Liberty The ballot is not infallible, but it has broken the Arab pact with tyranny.

BY FOUAD AJAMI Tuesday, February 7, 2006 12:01 a.m. EST

So, some now say, a people led for more than three decades by Yasser Arafat, a man who dodged all moral and political responsibility, have flunked a great democratic test. It wasn't a pretty choice that the Palestinians were presented with: the secular autocracy of plunder and pretense represented by Arafat's inheritors on the one side and the cruel utopia of the Hamas hard-liners on the other. This was where Palestinian history [...] 26060 413 80_Re: Have we Tavorniks always been the Country bumpkins of the National Movement?14_aviva grosbard18_deang@BEZEQINT.NET30_Tue, 7 Feb 2006 14:57:07 +0200556_iso-8859-1 Danny-funny that you should say this cause I remember feeling the same way at Naa"leh Red Hook in 1969! The upshot however was we taught those cerebral East Coasters how to have fun! And you have seriously tickled my curiosity as to what Marc Rubin DID to facilitate the magic transformation you refer to????Keep the home fires burning! Aviva ----- Original Message ----- From: Dan Kanter To: HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2006 7:37 AM Subject: Have we Tavorniks always been the Country bumpkins of the National Movement? [...] 26474 98 36_Re: Wal-Mart-responding to criticism0_26_Sharon_Gates@LONGBEACH.GOV30_Tue, 7 Feb 2006 09:18:02 -0800781_us-ascii The question is whether WalMart will respond to protest and pressure by actual change or if they will opt for greenwashing.

Sharon









kbob24@AOL.COM Sent by: Habonim Dror Alumni Virtual Machaneh 02/06/2006 07:39 PM Please respond to Habonim Dror Alumni Virtual Machaneh



To: HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG cc: Subject: Wal-Mart-responding to criticism



Without getting into the boycott issue, according to this week's issue of Businessweek (yes, I read it), "the world's largest company has struggled to respond to critics of every stripe, from environmentalists to sweatshop activists." They are now recruiting for a "senior director of stakeholder engagement" to "help pioneer a new [...] 26573 89 36_Re: Wal-Mart-responding to criticism0_13_JLCAA@AOL.COM28_Tue, 7 Feb 2006 13:39:17 EST275_US-ASCII For a few months now, I've been part of a group trying to help workers at a plant in Mexico who want to form a union (they actually just rec'd Mexican Gov recognition). We have been in touch with Levis, one of the major firms for whom the plant produces jeans. [...] 26663 4651 25_Fw: FAMFI [Fwd: Fwd: FW:]11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@SOCAL.RR.COM30_Tue, 7 Feb 2006 11:23:50 -0800470_- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.15.2/251 - Release Date: 04/02/2006







------------------------------------------------------------------------- The HABONET mailing list is hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org, a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 31315 181 36_Re: Wal-Mart-responding to criticism14_Holtzer Family20_carmdave@URIM.ORG.IL30_Tue, 7 Feb 2006 21:49:38 +0200586_iso-8859-1 I am willing to apply for the job.

David

----- Original Message ----- From: Sharon_Gates@LONGBEACH.GOV To: HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2006 7:18 PM Subject: Re: Wal-Mart-responding to criticism





The question is whether WalMart will respond to protest and pressure by actual change or if they will opt for greenwashing.

Sharon





kbob24@AOL.COM Sent by: Habonim Dror Alumni Virtual Machaneh 02/06/2006 07:39 PM Please respond to Habonim Dror Alumni Virtual Machaneh [...] 31497 59 29_Re: The last word on Wal-Mart14_Holtzer Family20_carmdave@URIM.ORG.IL30_Tue, 7 Feb 2006 22:16:33 +0200480_iso-8859-1 A friend once showed me a book called "The Red-neck Cookbook" ....look it up if you have a chance - it is a real riot. I liked the sandwich which calls for two slices of white bread, mayo, potato chips and a couple slices of very juicy tomato. There was something about "pile up as many potato chips as you can, squash the top slice of bread down on the whole thing and eat over the sink". Maybe they will have to add "wash down with nasti spumante from Wal-Mart" [...] 31557 133 11_Re: Poverty14_Holtzer Family20_carmdave@URIM.ORG.IL30_Tue, 7 Feb 2006 22:18:09 +0200594_iso-8859-1 Sam,

I think we brought our misunderstanding to a point off Habonet. Keep my name out of anything you want to write.

Dave

----- Original Message ----- From: Smfgrappa@AOL.COM To: HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2006 4:00 AM Subject: Re: Poverty



In a message dated 01/26/2006 6:50:44 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, gelman@EROLS.COM writes: All the old fabric stores are gone. The next closest one may be about 90 minutes away, in the next big town, and, for all I know, it may be a Wal-Mart too. It puts these values to the test. [...] 31691 53 18_Re: Tavor memories14_Holtzer Family20_carmdave@URIM.ORG.IL30_Tue, 7 Feb 2006 22:53:08 +0200588_windows-1255 Ahhh, windmill cookies......... another flash of nostalgia. By the way, if you ever get back to the shores of Kaiser Lake, go to the brick tzrif and look up to find names of camper past.... I found the name "Marty Rabinowitz '61 " last time I was there...........

Dave

------------------------------------------------------------------------- The HABONET mailing list is hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org, a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 31745 143 18_Re: Tavor memories14_aviva grosbard18_deang@BEZEQINT.NET30_Tue, 7 Feb 2006 23:06:18 +0200492_windows-1255 Remember the Milk Bar? and Rosiest Steak house? Bet they are gone by now...My daughter Shiri was a counselor at Tavor before her army service and found MY NAME! think it was in the tzrief we called Tzelim-but here my memory slides...Am still waiting for Danny to reveal the magic of Marc Rubin...we did have fun didn't we:) Aviva ----- Original Message ----- From: Holtzer Family To: HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2006 10:53 PM Subject: Re: Tavor memories [...] 31889 53 18_Re: Tavor memories14_Holtzer Family20_carmdave@URIM.ORG.IL30_Tue, 7 Feb 2006 23:16:53 +0200312_windows-1255 Rosie's Steak House is gone, as well as the WhistleStop in K-zoo. The Milk Bar might be there - I couldn't remember the way there last time I was in Three Rivers. The park with the ducks & geese on the river at the edge of town is still there, tho...... But the Graystone Motel is a flophouse. [...] 31943 51 61_Re: [QUAR] Tavor Reunion-June 9-11, 2006 Mark Your Calendars!0_14_Ohanka@AOL.COM28_Tue, 7 Feb 2006 18:50:24 EST418_US-ASCII In a message dated 2/6/06 10:30:39 PM, jessicab@BEZEQINT.NET writes:

<< Mmmm, sweet. Of course, it was created for that, Heidi. Just makes me want

to go even more, alas. In any case, Hank, 'anger' doesn't quite capture it -

I'm not angry... just.... wistful and playing indignant. In any case, we're

no wimps, Minkin and I. Despite this timing setback, we're still in for the [...] 31995 18 12_causus belli16_Elihu D. Davison25_elihu.davison@VERIZON.NET30_Wed, 8 Feb 2006 06:09:59 -0500426_us-ascii http://www.humaneventsonline.com/sarticle.php?id=12146

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To unsubscribe email: HABONET-unsubscribe-request@SHAMASH.ORG 32014 299 99_Fw: Something's rotten in the state of Denmark, writes Irfan Yusuf, but.........................! ?11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@SOCAL.RR.COM30_Wed, 8 Feb 2006 07:23:11 -0800478_iso-8859-1

It is refreshing to hear a Muslim viewpoint like this. The single (and minor) use of brackets toward the end are my own.

Steve













Something's rotten in the state of Denmark, writes Irfan Yusuf, but the cartoons...

6 February 2006 New Zealand Herald

Something's rotten in the state of Denmark, writes Irfan Yusuf, but the cartoons show not all is well in the state of Islam either. [...] 32314 47 18_Re: Tavor memories0_23_jacknusan@EARTHLINK.NET30_Wed, 8 Feb 2006 12:01:03 -0500 32362 48 14_happy birthday0_26_Sharon_Gates@LONGBEACH.GOV30_Wed, 8 Feb 2006 09:42:08 -0800546_us-ascii Happy birthday today to Martin Buber. He would be turning 129, had he not died in the interim.

Sharon Gates Administrative Analyst Planning and Development Bureau Dept. of Parks, Recreation and Marine Long Beach, California 562/570-3124

------------------------------------------------------------------------- The HABONET mailing list is hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org, a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ 32411 40 28_Coretta Scott King's funeral12_Sue Liberman20_fiddlebach@YAHOO.COM30_Wed, 8 Feb 2006 10:03:39 -0800562_iso-8859-1 I don't know if any of you out there watched this event- but I was so moved- My sister called me and insisted I watch to the end- after a day's work- it was replayed in C-Span in its entirety. This was one event which made me feel proud to be American- that a woman- a black woman-- could command such love and respect- and bring together so powerful a group of people-presidents, congressmen/women; entertainers, and spiritual leaders. I suggest that if you haven't seen this- that at least you find a way to see Bernice's eulogy- the last part [...] 32452 40 27_Atlanta-to any chevre there12_Sue Liberman20_fiddlebach@YAHOO.COM30_Wed, 8 Feb 2006 12:24:39 -0800339_iso-8859-1 Hi- I tried to email the King Center- but it bounced back- I need to get in contact with them- can you find out a phoe numebr which has a human voice on theotehr end? or a correct email address?- I would appreciateit- sue



--------------------------------- Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. [...] 32493 54 59_International Green Party committee violated party platform0_15_DebALev@AOL.COM28_Wed, 8 Feb 2006 15:25:13 EST599_US-ASCII FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE WEDNESDAY FEBRUARY 8, 2006 INFO: 718-522-0253

FORMER U.S. GREEN PARTY PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE SAYS INTERNATIONAL COMMITTEE VIOLATED PARTY PLATFORM; ASKS STATE PARTIES TO RECALL ALL COMMITTEE DELEGATES

Former US Green Party (USGP) presidential candidate Lorna Salzman has charged the party's International Committee (IC) with violating a platform item adopted in 2004 that prohibits support for states violating human rights and international law, and with failing to carry out their mandate to consult with foreign greens in formulating USGP policy. [...] 32548 87 45_Mosh, Galil, and Na'aleh Alumni- help needed!12_Aviva Glaser22_aviva.glaser@GMAIL.COM30_Wed, 8 Feb 2006 19:36:49 -0500597_ISO-8859-1 Hi all-

I think that Judy Gelman forwarded my email already, but I haven't gotten many responses, so I'm asking again for help. This coming weekend, we will be running a mifgash for Mosh, Galil, and Na'aleh. In honor of Habonim's 70th anniversary, one of the themes of the weekend will be Habonim past, present, and future. Specifically, we are going to run a peula looking at the way that the eizor has changed over the years. However, this is by and large an unrecorded history. So, we are collecting stories, memories, and recollections from alumni- Please send yours by [...] 32636 29 49_Re: Mosh, Galil, and Na'aleh Alumni- help needed!19_lfmarsh@verizon.net19_lfmarsh@VERIZON.NET30_Thu, 9 Feb 2006 06:26:25 -0600440_ISO8859-1 aviva--sorry i haven't been able to focus on this--my car was totalled and i've spent all week trying to deal with insurance and getting a new car. i had forwarded this to someone who was going to send you something. if i can get to it i will.

lisa

>From: Aviva Glaser >Date: Wed Feb 08 18:36:49 CST 2006 >To: HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG >Subject: Mosh, Galil, and Na'aleh Alumni- help needed! [...] 32666 79 13_Hamas Charter16_Elihu D. Davison25_elihu.davison@VERIZON.NET30_Thu, 9 Feb 2006 11:01:40 -0500576_us-ascii I've attempted, over the past week or so, to post a number of articles. For whatever reason, Habonet doesn't like me; the file server has apparently determined that I am morally deficient or somesuch, so my postings don't appear. Recent researches have led me to the online posting of Hamas' charter, a horrific document that we should all read. Hamas proudly refuses to amend this document to recognize the legitimacy of Jewish national aspirations. I take their averrals seriously, and at their word. http://www.palestinecenter.org/cpap/documents/charter.html [...] 32746 311 53_Beilin's piece on the next political move after Hamas13_Yuval Warshai20_warshy@SBCGLOBAL.NET30_Thu, 9 Feb 2006 14:15:23 -0500426_iso-8859-1 For one thing, no matter the reader's political bias or inclination, no matter what party's view the reader may support, I believe the way Beilin defines Israel's diplomatic and security goals in any future agreement is concise, precise, complete, and beautifully articulated. Beilin and the Geneva Accords he refers to has also been mentioned on this list in recent discussions. This is from today's Haaretz: [...] 33058 299 57_Re: Beilin's piece on the next political move after Hamas0_26_Sharon_Gates@LONGBEACH.GOV30_Thu, 9 Feb 2006 13:56:40 -0800599_us-ascii Beilin says that one of Israel's goals is for a Palestinian state to maintain democracy. Leaving for another time the argument over what that means, I question whether any state has a right to insist that another state maintain any particular form of government. (What if Canada insisted that the US maintain democracy? We'd be in big trouble) It is perfectly reasonable for Israel to have a goal that a Palestinian state be stable and prevent any attempt to harm Israel (presumably from within its borders). If they could do that with an Islamic theocracy and their people were happy [...] 33358 240 57_Re: Beilin's piece on the next political move after Hamas13_Yuval Warshai20_warshy@SBCGLOBAL.NET30_Thu, 9 Feb 2006 17:34:27 -0500539_iso-8859-1 Sharon,

For me, the answers to your questions are not too difficult to come by with. But that is because my vantage point is one that is very closely aligned with Beilin's to begin with. But for many people on this list, even the way in which you are asking your questions is going to raise some very pointed reactions, I would assume. For example, on this list, as far as I am aware of, to argue that terrorism is a morally valid bargaining point in this conflict is a NO NO! For a very good number of people here, [...] 33599 573 57_Re: Beilin's piece on the next political move after Hamas11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@SOCAL.RR.COM30_Thu, 9 Feb 2006 15:16:27 -0800527_iso-8859-1 Sharon

I don't know if I would expect someone with your sophistication to think, or say, that "terrorism is Hamas' strongest bargaining point". I would expect Palestinian Arabs to say that, simply because that is what they have been living with for the last eighty years- the belief that if you keep up terrorism long enough and hard enough, the Jews will magically go away. You, Sharon, either personally believe that is true- . . .or you don't! I personally don't think this plan is working very well. [...] 34173 420 57_Re: Beilin's piece on the next political move after Hamas0_26_Sharon_Gates@LONGBEACH.GOV30_Thu, 9 Feb 2006 16:10:04 -0800561_us-ascii I did not say that terrorism was a good or morally defensible bargaining point, just that it is their strongest one. I ask the question "what else does Hamas (or Fatah, or any other Palestinian organization) have to offer Israel?" They can offer an end to the violence. If the violence somehow ends before Hamas (or whoever) gets what they need out of the deal (not going into what that would be right now), then what do they have left to trade? Some of us might like to believe that Israel would give the Palestinians what they need because that [...] 34594 22 48_Seething Midwest Explodes Over Lombardi Cartoons8_Jon Baum19_jonbaum@SASA.ORG.IL31_Fri, 10 Feb 2006 11:29:00 +0200471_us-ascii Is nothing sacred?



http://iowahawk.typepad.com/iowahawk/2006/02/seething_midwes.html

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To unsubscribe email: HABONET-unsubscribe-request@SHAMASH.ORG 34617 69 48_Seething Midwest Explodes Over Lombardi Cartoons8_Jon Baum19_jonbaum@SASA.ORG.IL31_Fri, 10 Feb 2006 13:13:48 +0200479_us-ascii Is nothing sacred?



http://iowahawk.typepad.com/iowahawk/2006/02/seething_midwes.html



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To unsubscribe email: HABONET-unsubscribe-request@SHAMASH.ORG 34687 344 37_Terrorism, who us? Was Beilin's Piece12_amnon hadary22_gershon-keileh@013.NET31_Fri, 10 Feb 2006 16:23:52 +0200597_windows-1255 Haverim/ot This week's Bible portion is Be'Shalach . Chapter 14 of Exodus describes the ghastly end of Pharaoh's army in the Reed Sea 14:26 God said to Moses, 'Extend your hand over the sea. The waters will come back over the Egyptians, covering their chariot corps and cavalry.' 14:27 Just before morning, Moses extended his hand over the sea, and the sea returned to its normal condition. The Egyptians were fleeing [the water], but God swamped the Egyptians in the middle of the sea. 14:28 The waters came back and covered the cavalry and chariots. Of all Pharaoh's army that [...] 35032 108 41_Re: Terrorism, who us? Was Beilin's Piece0_17_Smfgrappa@AOL.COM29_Fri, 10 Feb 2006 09:29:02 EST532_US-ASCII In a message dated 02/10/2006 9:20:23 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, gershon-keileh@013.NET writes:

My comment should in no way be misconstrued. Blowing up oneself in a bus or mall, taking young and old to their death along with the suicide "hero" him/herself is outside the pale of human acceptability it is bestial and of the devil's party. But an occupied people even when it possesses rifles and kassam rockets has no other credible recourse, no real alternative to bring the adversary to a negotiating table. [...] 35141 513 57_Re: Beilin's piece on the next political move after Hamas12_amnon hadary22_gershon-keileh@013.NET31_Fri, 10 Feb 2006 16:38:09 +0200666_iso-8859-1 Sharon, Sharon Will you marry me? ----- Original Message ----- From: Sharon_Gates@LONGBEACH.GOV To: HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2006 11:56 PM Subject: Re: Beilin's piece on the next political move after Hamas





Beilin says that one of Israel's goals is for a Palestinian state to maintain democracy. Leaving for another time the argument over what that means, I question whether any state has a right to insist that another state maintain any particular form of government. (What if Canada insisted that the US maintain democracy? We'd be in big trouble) It is perfectly reasonable for Israel to have a goal [...] 35655 118 49_Israel, the Hamas, the USA, the Russians and Iran8_Jon Baum19_jonbaum@SASA.ORG.IL31_Fri, 10 Feb 2006 16:58:55 +0200581_us-ascii From Stratfor.com:



Geopolitical Diary: A U.S.-Israeli Policy Rift?

Israeli television played a curious recording on Thursday. In the recording -- which reportedly was made in secret -- Yuval Diskin, chief of the Shin Bet security service, was heard telling a group of young Jewish settlers in the West Bank that Israel might come to regret its past support for the U.S. invasion of Iraq. "When you dismantle a system in which there is a despot who controls his people by force, you have chaos," Diskin said. "I'm not sure we won't miss Saddam." [...] 35774 36 12_Beilin redux16_Elihu D. Davison25_elihu.davison@VERIZON.NET31_Fri, 10 Feb 2006 10:12:40 -0500672_ISO-8859-1 Thanks to Yuval for posting Beilin's HaAretz article. The paradigm has shifted radically and Yossi Beilin is unable/unwilling to see that. His Geneva Accords would, at best from a Palestinian perspective, make Israel into what Lenin once termed "useful idiots." The Geneva Accords now are irrelevant because Hamas is Islamist irridentist. Its non-negotiable demands are for a complete Israeli withdrawal from all territories gotten in 1967, complete Palestinian repatriation & right of return, etc. (BBC world service had an interview w/the head of Hamas several days ago. Check BBC archives online.) Moreover, terror isn't a bargaining chip for Hamas but [...] 35811 240 57_Re: Beilin's piece on the next political move after Hamas12_Sue Liberman20_fiddlebach@YAHOO.COM31_Fri, 10 Feb 2006 07:45:11 -0800512_iso-8859-1 Fzor the life of me, I can not understand why apparent "neighbors" don't have the right to ask each other to have a peaceful co-existence. Israel is not America, and the Palestinian Authority is not Canada. It would be irresponsible for a government NOT to demand a freedom from threats of extinction regarding its citizens. This is a BASIC demand, not something convoluted or complex. I ask, would you like living next to someone who was sending katyusha rockets into your living room?......sue [...] 36052 542 57_Re: Beilin's piece on the next political move after Hamas0_26_Sharon_Gates@LONGBEACH.GOV31_Fri, 10 Feb 2006 08:37:37 -0800488_us-ascii Sue- You obviously did not read what I read. I said it was reasonable for Israel to have a goal that a Palestinian state be stable and prevent anyattempt to harm Israel. It is not reasonable to demand that a neighboring state be a democracy.

Sharon









Sue Liberman Sent by: Habonim Dror Alumni Virtual Machaneh 02/10/2006 07:45 AM Please respond to Habonim Dror Alumni Virtual Machaneh [...] 36595 113 41_Re: Terrorism, who us? Was Beilin's Piece0_26_Sharon_Gates@LONGBEACH.GOV31_Fri, 10 Feb 2006 08:49:09 -0800594_us-ascii I couldn't agree more with Sam's theory that a non-violent resistance to the occupation would have already succeeded. Lest there remain any doubt in anyone's mind (and I can't imagine how this could be possible) I do not favor armed resistance, I do not support terrorism, I think terrorism is counter-productive as well as morally wrong. But non-violent resistance is not a card in Hamas's hand. Of the cards they hold, tragically, terrorism is the strongest. The Palestinians have painted themselves into this corner, but they have dragged the entire region in there with them. [...] 36709 405 41_Re: Terrorism, who us? Was Beilin's Piece11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@SOCAL.RR.COM31_Fri, 10 Feb 2006 09:12:13 -0800643_windows-1255

Amnon Please help me and others with our abyssmal ignorance concerning Rashi. How did he come by this second viewing of the Reed Sea crossing? Was he there? Did he come by some long-forgotten passages of Dead Sea scrolls? Was this an interpretation of what "must have been"?

Steve







Haverim/ot This week's Bible portion is Be'Shalach . Chapter 14 of Exodus describes the ghastly end of Pharaoh's army in the Reed Sea 14:26 God said to Moses, 'Extend your hand over the sea. The waters will come back over the Egyptians, covering their chariot corps and cavalry.' 14:27 Just before [...] 37115 592 57_Re: Beilin's piece on the next political move after Hamas0_26_Sharon_Gates@LONGBEACH.GOV31_Fri, 10 Feb 2006 09:15:27 -0800662_us-ascii Oops, I meant that Sue did not read what I wrote.

Sharon









Sharon_Gates@LONGBEACH.GOV Sent by: Habonim Dror Alumni Virtual Machaneh 02/10/2006 08:37 AM Please respond to Habonim Dror Alumni Virtual Machaneh



To: HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG cc: Subject: Re: Beilin's piece on the next political move after Hamas





Sue- You obviously did not read what I read. I said it was reasonable for Israel to have a goal that a Palestinian state be stable and prevent anyattempt to harm Israel. It is not reasonable to demand that a neighboring state be a democracy. [...] 37708 805 57_Re: Beilin's piece on the next political move after Hamas11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@SOCAL.RR.COM31_Fri, 10 Feb 2006 09:22:04 -0800488_iso-8859-1 Sharon

I think this whole discussion shows us how jaded we have become. What does a neighboring country offer another? The Palestinians and any other fill-in-the-blank can offer what any other people can offer to their neighbor: cooperation.

Steve



----- Original Message ----- From: Sharon_Gates@LONGBEACH.GOV To: HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2006 4:10 PM Subject: Re: Beilin's piece on the next political move after Hamas [...] 38514 29 19_Re: Rashi's sources11_Noam Stopak21_nstopak@STARPOWER.NET31_Fri, 10 Feb 2006 13:11:12 -0500322_- Steve wrote:

> Amnon > Please help me and others with our abyssmal ignorance concerning Rashi. How > did he come by this second viewing of the Reed Sea crossing? Was he there? > Did he come by some long-forgotten passages of Dead Sea scrolls? Was this an > interpretation of what "must have been"? > > Steve [...] 38544 52 19_Re: Rashi's sources12_amnon hadary22_gershon-keileh@013.NET31_Fri, 10 Feb 2006 21:51:24 +0200596_windows-1255 Now Noam, don't be naughty Amnon ----- Original Message ----- From: "Noam Stopak" To: Sent: Friday, February 10, 2006 8:11 PM Subject: Re: Rashi's sources



> > Steve wrote: > >> Amnon >> Please help me and others with our abyssmal ignorance concerning Rashi. > How > did he come by this second viewing of the Reed Sea crossing? Was he > there? > Did he come by some long-forgotten passages of Dead Sea scrolls? > Was this an > interpretation of what "must have been"? >> >> Steve > > Maybe he heard it from a reliable [...] 38597 78 41_Re: Terrorism, who us? Was Beilin's Piece0_13_JLCAA@AOL.COM29_Fri, 10 Feb 2006 14:47:35 EST592_US-ASCII

In a message dated 2/10/2006 1:28:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, Sharon_Gates@LONGBEACH.GOV writes:

But non-violent resistance is not a card in Hamas's hand.



Non-violence is not a card one is dealt and therefore, "in Hamas's hand." It is a card one creates. Gandhi developed his non-violent movement after witnessing violent attempts at change in South Africa, and realizing violence cannot win against a more powerful force.Most Palestinians don't seem to accept Gandhi's view. They are a product of a different socio-economic-political world view. [...] 38676 31 21_Rashi and his website11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@MJDS.ORG31_Fri, 10 Feb 2006 15:45:48 -0600649_us-ascii Here is the Rashi website (in English), you can check it out. http://www.rashiyomi.com/

Rozzie









________________________________________________________________ Sent via the WebMail system at mjds.org









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To unsubscribe email: HABONET-unsubscribe-request@SHAMASH.ORG 38708 510 57_Re: Beilin's piece on the next political move after Hamas0_26_Sharon_Gates@LONGBEACH.GOV31_Fri, 10 Feb 2006 14:09:10 -0800309_us-ascii Steve- Your point assumes two countries that meet each other as sovereign nations. This is most definitely not the case with Israel and Palestine. You invite me to fill in the blank, how about filling in the blank with the name "Israel." Cooperation and occupation are incompatible, in my book. [...] 39219 182 57_Fw: Beilin's piece on the next political move after Hamas13_Yuval Warshai20_warshy@SBCGLOBAL.NET31_Fri, 10 Feb 2006 21:38:54 -0500510_iso-8859-1 The message below, as you can see, is from Sue Liberman. It bounced back on the listserv software because of some arcane technical reason having to do with some of the appended messages at the bottom. I cut all of that "tail" off to avoid more problems and it should now go through OK. ___ |Y| ^^^ ----- Original Message ----- From: Sue Liberman To: Habonim Dror Alumni Virtual Machaneh Sent: Friday, February 10, 2006 7:29 PM Subject: Re: Beilin's piece on the next political move after Hamas [...] 39402 64 14_Mohammed Dance8_Jon Baum19_jonbaum@SASA.ORG.IL31_Sat, 11 Feb 2006 09:47:44 +0200460_us-ascii Sort of like the hamsters, but with more blasphemy:

http://www.mohammeddance.com/

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To unsubscribe email: HABONET-unsubscribe-request@SHAMASH.ORG 39467 91 36_Re: Wal-Mart-responding to criticism0_17_Smfgrappa@AOL.COM29_Sat, 11 Feb 2006 11:21:55 EST619_US-ASCII In a message dated 02/06/2006 10:40:31 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, kbob24@AOL.COM writes:

It does appear, that Wal-mart, is responding to protest and public pressure. Ken, this is a clear indication that Wal-Mart has been following the debate here on Habonet. While we may have changed the world by chat with Wal-Mart, we have a much bigger not to crack with healthcare in the US. Our system is on the verge of collapse. The insurance companies are getting rich off of our problems while the GOP moralizes about the advantages of health savings accounts. Meanwhile Medicare D continues to spin out [...] 39559 968 57_Re: Beilin's piece on the next political move after Hamas11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@SOCAL.RR.COM31_Sat, 11 Feb 2006 08:24:26 -0800514_iso-8859-1

Sharon

I didn't realize you were in the camp of those that see us as "occupiers". I apologize. I would never have bothered you.

Steve











Steve- Your point assumes two countries that meet each other as sovereign nations. This is most definitely not the case with Israel and Palestine. You invite me to fill in the blank, how about filling in the blank with the name "Israel." Cooperation and occupation are incompatible, in my book. [...] 40528 85 26_Fw: editorial cartoon site11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@SOCAL.RR.COM31_Sat, 11 Feb 2006 08:37:51 -0800750_iso-8859-1 Too good not to share.

Steve



Subject: Fw: editorial cartoon site



Dear Friends: I just received this website via an email from a friend. It contains some timely and interesting responses on the cartoon topic, as well as numerous other contemporary issues. It is well worth the time to look it over...............................................harry

http://cagle.com/news/Muhammad





------------------------------------------------------------------------- The HABONET mailing list is hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org, a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 40614 49 19_Re: Rashi's sources11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@SOCAL.RR.COM31_Sat, 11 Feb 2006 08:40:16 -0800616_iso-8859-1 Might just as well have.

Steve



Subject: Re: Rashi's sources



> Steve wrote: > >> Amnon >> Please help me and others with our abyssmal ignorance concerning Rashi. > How > did he come by this second viewing of the Reed Sea crossing? Was he > there? > Did he come by some long-forgotten passages of Dead Sea scrolls? > Was this an > interpretation of what "must have been"? >> >> Steve > > Maybe he heard it from a reliable source on the net? :-) > > Shabbat Shalom > > Noam > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > The HABONET [...] 40664 158 36_Re: Wal-Mart-responding to criticism12_amnon hadary22_gershon-keileh@013.NET31_Sat, 11 Feb 2006 18:51:56 +0200670_iso-8859-1 Sam, First, I like the message. Second, I like the dry tone. Third, it's time to repeal prohibition. Amnon ----- Original Message ----- From: Smfgrappa@AOL.COM To: HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2006 6:21 PM Subject: [SPAM]: Re: Wal-Mart-responding to criticism



In a message dated 02/06/2006 10:40:31 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, kbob24@AOL.COM writes: It does appear, that Wal-mart, is responding to protest and public pressure. Ken, this is a clear indication that Wal-Mart has been following the debate here on Habonet. While we may have changed the world by chat with Wal-Mart, we have a much bigger not to crack with [...] 40823 380 57_Re: Beilin's piece on the next political move after Hamas13_Yuval Warshai20_warshy@SBCGLOBAL.NET31_Sat, 11 Feb 2006 13:53:50 -0500582_iso-8859-1 Sue,

I agree with Sharon that we are occupiers. There is an ongoing military occupation of the West Bank that started in 1967. The argument you use, about all the Israelis being occupiers also in Tel Avir or in Rishon LeTzion or in Herzliya or in Natanya, is the same argument that the settlers use to justify their illegal land-grabbing in the occupied West Bank. For ourselves, as Jews and Israelis, we have to agree that Israel is the national home of the Jewish People, and as such it is necessary and legitimate, and democratic too, and we will continue [...] 41204 150 41_Re: Terrorism, who us? Was Beilin's Piece12_Jessica Bonn21_jessicab@BEZEQINT.NET31_Sat, 11 Feb 2006 21:34:46 +0200359_ISO-8859-1 Incidentally or not, there was a non-violent Palestinian activist - if I recall his name was Mohammad Awwad - who was deported by Israel, I think around 10 yrs ago.

Jessie ----- Original Message ----- From: JLCAA@AOL.COM To: HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG Sent: Friday, February 10, 2006 9:47 PM Subject: Re: Terrorism, who us? Was Beilin's Piece [...] 41355 518 57_Re: Beilin's piece on the next political move after Hamas12_amnon hadary22_gershon-keileh@013.NET31_Sat, 11 Feb 2006 22:28:48 +0200567_iso-8859-1 Yuval, Like a good farmer you clear the field of stones, pull the underbrush aside and burn it and then sow the seeds. Which means that I agree with you and admire your methodology. Anyone who doesn't accept the fact of the occupation (as distinct from its necessity or justification which is a differeent argument) is either a fool or a knave. When Berliners tore down the wall that the Soviet Army built in the middle of their city they ended the occupation of East Germany and by implication of Poland and the all the other satelites states of the [...] 41874 221 37_From a "fool and a knave" (per Amnon)12_Sue Liberman20_fiddlebach@YAHOO.COM31_Sat, 11 Feb 2006 12:56:09 -0800610_iso-8859-1 Yuval- You did not address the basic precept that all of Israel is -according to some--basically "occupied" by Jews- according to Hamas and its constitution. The Islamic fundamentalist believes that Jews need to be thrown into the sea, and Israel must be destroyed. The problem, I feel, of "nominating" us as being "occupiers" - aside from being self-depricating-brings in the problem of Americans and the Native American problem also. Then we should all just get out of whence we live and go back to Europe, or Russia, or Germany, or Italy....it is an argument that does not take into account [...] 42096 405 57_Re: Beilin's piece on the next political move after Hamas11_Noam Stopak21_nstopak@STARPOWER.NET31_Sat, 11 Feb 2006 16:07:45 -0500434_iso-8859-1

I'm not sure how much the situation has been clarified.

One problem I have been struggling with is that when we here on habonet speak of occupation we are talking about territory beyond the green line, while when Hamas, as exemplified by the Washington Post op/ed piece by Mousa Abu Marzook that I sent back on Jan 31, speaks of occupation they are indeed speaking of Tel Aviv, Haifa, and Gesher Haziv. [...] 42502 239 41_Re: From a "fool and a knave" (per Amnon)13_Yuval Warshai21_warshai@SBCGLOBAL.NET31_Sat, 11 Feb 2006 16:30:58 -0500595_iso-8859-1 Sue,

America is not going to move anywhere, all native americans have known that for a long time. Some of them live in their reservations and try to make the best out of the autonomy they enjoy (attracting white europeans to gamble and loose their money there, for example), some have chosen to join the dominant culture and try to change it from inside (like, for example, the university professor that not too long ago was raising waves with his unorthodox approach to terrorism against America, etc.). Israel is not going to go anywhere either. I believe a majority of [...] 42742 75 41_Re: Terrorism, who us? Was Beilin's Piece0_17_Smfgrappa@AOL.COM29_Sat, 11 Feb 2006 17:13:15 EST426_US-ASCII In a message dated 02/11/2006 2:36:16 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, jessicab@BEZEQINT.NET writes:

Incidentally or not, there was a non-violent Palestinian activist - if I recall his name was Mohammad Awwad - who was deported by Israel, I think around 10 yrs ago.



There was one non violent Palestinian. One swallow does not make a summer. One non violent Palestinian does not make a movement. [...] 42818 251 38_Ariel Sharon on the Israeli occupation0_14_kbob24@AOL.COM31_Sat, 11 Feb 2006 17:15:06 -0500536_iso-8859-1

I have no reason to believe that someone put LSD in the Painview, NY water system (I have been reading a book on Abbie Hoffman recently which accounts for that reference), but that would be a logical explanation for my quoting Ariel Sharon on this subject.

Seriously, I see people on Habonet still resisting using the word "occupation" while close to three years ago Sharon himself finally realized that it was time to recognize the situation honestly and set out to find the best, secure path to end it. [...] 43070 204 57_Re: Beilin's piece on the next political move after Hamas12_Sue Liberman20_fiddlebach@YAHOO.COM31_Sat, 11 Feb 2006 16:43:30 -0800566_iso-8859-1 Thank you Noam- we seem to be agreeing more and more with each other...what could it be?---:)- sue

--- Noam Stopak wrote:

> > I'm not sure how much the situation has been > clarified. > > One problem I have been struggling with is that when > we here on habonet speak of occupation we are > talking about territory beyond the green line, while > when Hamas, as exemplified by the Washington Post > op/ed piece by Mousa Abu Marzook that I sent back on > Jan 31, speaks of occupation they are indeed > speaking of [...] 43275 399 14_reply to yuval13_Pearl Skolnik25_pskolnik@NETVISION.NET.IL31_Sun, 12 Feb 2006 07:02:10 +0200592_iso-8859-1 as long as the Balfour Declaration has not been abrogated, Judea and Samaria belong to us at least as much if not more than they do to Arabs living there, so we are not illegally there. These areas were conquered in a defensive war against Jordan, and, therefore, their status is different than had they been captured in an offensive war. It was Jordan that attacked us. There were NO borders of 1948, there were ceasefire lines, and ceasefire lines are not permanent. and finally, the vast majority of settlers beyond the Green Line are NON-RELIGIOUS, and you are misleading [...] 43675 241 41_Re: From a "fool and a knave" (per Amnon)13_Pearl Skolnik25_pskolnik@NETVISION.NET.IL31_Sun, 12 Feb 2006 07:09:41 +0200297_iso-8859-1 When it was feared by the Arabs that Um al Fahm would be given over to the PA, they threatened to make an intifada that no one would ever forget. The Arabs want to stay on the Israeli side of the border whenever and whereever it is possible. They know what is good for them. pearl [...] 43917 212 28_experience living with Arabs13_Pearl Skolnik25_pskolnik@NETVISION.NET.IL31_Sun, 12 Feb 2006 08:05:32 +0200558_windows-1255 I was recently hospitalized in Hadassa Ein Kerem for over two months. In the Department most of the patients were Arabs. In that period I had three different Arab room-mates. It was a most enlightening experience, which I would like to share with you. #1. A middle-aged woman from Ir David, next to the Wall. She and her husband called me "uchti," my sister, and were very friendly and helpful to me, since I could not move. All smiles, until one day the nurse came to move the woman to another room, since she was being sent home the next [...] 44130 74 42_Re: Ariel Sharon on the Israeli occupation12_Sue Liberman20_fiddlebach@YAHOO.COM31_Sat, 11 Feb 2006 23:02:50 -0800582_iso-8859-1 Whatever you call it, I don't have to agree--not even with the "great one"...so now comes the question- what about Jerusalem..sue

--- kbob24@AOL.COM wrote:

> > I have no reason to believe that someone put LSD in > the Painview, NY water system (I have been reading a > book on Abbie Hoffman recently which accounts for > that reference), but that would be a logical > explanation for my quoting Ariel Sharon on this > subject. > > Seriously, I see people on Habonet still resisting > using the word "occupation" while close to three > years ago Sharon [...] 44205 546 67_Re: Beilin's piece or - skipping stones (record at Galil - 9 skips)12_Jessica Bonn21_jessicab@BEZEQINT.NET31_Sun, 12 Feb 2006 09:22:25 +0200543_iso-8859-1 Noam, you raise some tough points here (or: I can feel that there are a lot of pebbles in my shoe; reminds me of the Palmach ethic on which many of my friends and I guess (my) Yuval - 'children of' - were raised, which is 'don't stop to take it out of your shoe unless you feel like you're going to die; keep walking; the opposite and equally crazy extreme from the parallel 'me' generation in the US). There must be a middle ground between not falling to the standards of others in determining how we behave ourselves (Gideon [...] 44752 164 37_swallow this one as summer approaches12_Jessica Bonn21_jessicab@BEZEQINT.NET31_Sun, 12 Feb 2006 10:23:54 +0200631_iso-8859-1

If Ghandi had been deported I imagine that would have dampened his effect as well. Awwad was clearly persona non grata vis-a-vis the Israeli authorities precisely because of his non-violence, insofar as legitimate effective resistance is a worst-case scenario. There is also a village that took a non-violent strategy against the separation fence... you'll never read about this in the press - the village of Bil'in. This is not to vindicate the Palestinians or to say that they would be a non-violent society if they could and that it's all Israel's fault. But remember Abraham's argument with d' over the [...] 44917 161 41_Re: Terrorism, who us? Was Beilin's Piece17_Sheldon and Heidi21_shelheid@ACTCOM.CO.IL31_Sun, 12 Feb 2006 10:51:34 +0200467_us-ascii



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------------------------------------------------------------------------- The HABONET mailing list is hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org, a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 45079 66 4_Iran17_Sheldon and Heidi21_shelheid@ACTCOM.CO.IL31_Sun, 12 Feb 2006 10:57:22 +0200681_us-ascii Jon - Israel was against the invasion of Iraq this time around, so I am informed. Rearranging deck chairs on the titanic. Heidi

At 17:12 10/02/2006, you wrote:

>Thanks to Yuval for posting Beilin's HaAretz article. The paradigm has >shifted radically and Yossi Beilin is unable/unwilling to see that. His >Geneva Accords would, at best from a Palestinian perspective, make Israel >into what Lenin once termed "useful idiots." The Geneva Accords now are >irrelevant because Hamas is Islamist irridentist. Its non-negotiable >demands are for a complete Israeli withdrawal from all territories gotten >in 1967, complete Palestinian repatriation & right of [...] 45146 84 8_Re: Iran12_Jessica Bonn21_jessicab@BEZEQINT.NET31_Sun, 12 Feb 2006 11:20:51 +0200647_iso-8859-1 Save us a seat nearby, Heidi - always did enjoy talking to you. Jessie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sheldon and Heidi" To: Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2006 10:57 AM Subject: Iran



> Jon - > Israel was against the invasion of Iraq this time around, so I am > informed. Rearranging deck chairs on the titanic. > Heidi > > At 17:12 10/02/2006, you wrote: > >>Thanks to Yuval for posting Beilin's HaAretz article. The paradigm has >>shifted radically and Yossi Beilin is unable/unwilling to see that. His >>Geneva Accords would, at best from a Palestinian perspective, [...] 45231 90 8_Re: Iran8_Jon Baum19_jonbaum@SASA.ORG.IL31_Sun, 12 Feb 2006 13:20:29 +0200482_us-ascii Heidi, while I agree with some of the sentiments here, I didn't write this. I think it was Elihu.

Jon

-----Original Message----- From: Habonim Dror Alumni Virtual Machaneh [mailto:HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG] On Behalf Of Sheldon and Heidi Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2006 10:57 AM To: HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG Subject: Iran



Jon - Israel was against the invasion of Iraq this time around, so I am informed. Rearranging deck chairs on the titanic. Heidi [...] 45322 23 32_Re: experience living with Arabs11_Judy Gelman16_gelman@EROLS.COM31_Sun, 12 Feb 2006 07:12:26 -0500420_windows-1255 Dear Pearl,

Refuah Shlema

Judy

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To unsubscribe email: HABONET-unsubscribe-request@SHAMASH.ORG 45346 234 41_Re: Terrorism, who us? Was Beilin's Piece11_Judy Gelman16_gelman@EROLS.COM31_Sun, 12 Feb 2006 07:20:03 -0500402_ISO-8859-1 Ayalon said that before disengagement too, as did others on the left. He wants negotiations. There are fundamental differences among those who want to keep the land for all time because God gave it to the Jews, those who want to keep it unless and until the Arabs are emasculated, those who want to separate now and those who want peace through negotiation. Ayalon is in the last camp. [...] 45581 231 41_Re: Terrorism, who us? Was Beilin's Piece17_Sheldon and Heidi21_shelheid@ACTCOM.CO.IL31_Sun, 12 Feb 2006 15:36:09 +0200467_us-ascii



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------------------------------------------------------------------------- The HABONET mailing list is hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org, a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 45813 74 17_Borders? Naaah...16_Elihu D. Davison25_elihu.davison@VERIZON.NET31_Sun, 12 Feb 2006 08:53:57 -0500700_us-ascii In Habonet 2006-41, Yuval Warshai writes of the

> almost-universally recognized borders of 1967

But they weren't borders at all. They were merely 1948's cease-fire lines. Until recently (probably circa 1988) the entire Arab Islamic world (the PLO wasn't formed until 1964 by a cynical Gamal Nasser) universally called for pushing Israel into the Mediterranean. The 1949 Rhodes Agreement establilshed a process for negotiating a final status peace agreement, including borders, between Israel and its neighboring (Arab) states. There was no Palestinian Arab representation in those negotiations. But still, there were no borders established. The only borders Israel has at [...] 45888 642 18_Re: Muhammed dance16_Elihu D. Davison25_elihu.davison@VERIZON.NET31_Sun, 12 Feb 2006 09:05:26 -0500899_us-ascii (http://www.mohammeddance.com/

This isn't a Muhammed dance; it's a Rambam dance. (See below.)





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To unsubscribe email: HABONET-unsubscribe-request@SHAMASH.ORG 46531 39 32_Re: experience living with Arabs13_Pearl Skolnik25_pskolnik@NETVISION.NET.IL31_Sun, 12 Feb 2006 14:24:07 +0200676_windows-1255 thank you Judy. Your good wishes are much appreciated. pearl ----- Original Message ----- From: "Judy Gelman" To: Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2006 2:12 PM Subject: Re: experience living with Arabs



> Dear Pearl, > > Refuah Shlema > > Judy > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > The HABONET mailing list is hosted by > Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org, > a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and > an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ > > To unsubscribe email: HABONET-unsubscribe-request@SHAMASH.ORG [...] 46571 73 13_maha's mother13_Pearl Skolnik25_pskolnik@NETVISION.NET.IL31_Sun, 12 Feb 2006 14:45:33 +0200526_windows-1255 Jessica, Maha's mother has not come to see her in 15 years! Even after she has spent 6 months in Hadassa, her mother and siblings have not come to see her from Jordan. There is no problem for them to come, thousands of Arabs cross the border legally all the time. There must be something deeper than what I was told why they do not come to see her. Maha does not not speak Hebrew, just Arabic, so a sicha on that level I can not carry on with her. We manage with such words as Charara (temperature) but most [...] 46645 37 57_Re: Beilin's piece on the next political move after Hamas0_13_JLCAA@AOL.COM29_Sun, 12 Feb 2006 10:03:50 EST433_US-ASCII According to Ariel Sharon a year or so ago, we are occupiers.

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To unsubscribe email: HABONET-unsubscribe-request@SHAMASH.ORG 46683 97 57_Re: Beilin's piece on the next political move after Hamas11_Noam Stopak21_nstopak@STARPOWER.NET31_Sun, 12 Feb 2006 10:14:30 -0500460_iso-8859-1 least anyone be confused, I don't disagree. my concern is the confusion between the term as we use it, and how Hamas understands the term.

Not that I think Sharon (Arik or Gates :-) should always have the last word or is the final authority...

Noam ----- Original Message ----- From: JLCAA@AOL.COM To: HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2006 10:03 AM Subject: Re: Beilin's piece on the next political move after Hamas [...] 46781 135 31_Tu B'shvat, Three B'shvat, Tree12_amnon hadary22_gershon-keileh@013.NET31_Sun, 12 Feb 2006 17:27:04 +0200533_windows-1255 Haverim/ot Long ago when my kids were growing up on the kibbutz I didn't need a calendar. The songs they brought home from the gan changed about a week before each holiday. Now I have to make do with blossoming almond trees in Jerusalem but they are rare - you have to look for them. To a large extent nature has been supplanted in my life by the computer. There is a widget in the lower right hand corner of my monitor which shows the weather and the waxing and waning of the moon. Today it shows 49% meaning that [...] 46917 117 10_Occupation0_17_Smfgrappa@AOL.COM29_Sun, 12 Feb 2006 10:21:58 EST590_US-ASCII In a message dated 02/12/2006 1:12:57 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, pskolnik@NETVISION.NET.IL writes:

as long as the Balfour Declaration has not been abrogated, Judea and Samaria belong to us at least as much if not more than they do to Arabs living there, so we are not illegally there.

We are all sitting debating whether or not there is an occupation. Then comes the delegate from the right and shows us a real problem. At this late date, there are still people who want to hold on to large Arab population centers despite all the pain and cost that will cause [...] 47035 47 32_So what does Ami Ayalon say now?0_14_kbob24@AOL.COM31_Sun, 12 Feb 2006 10:26:43 -0500370_us-ascii Since there have been so many references to Ami in the past 24 hours, I thought some might be interested in an indepth interview with him in Friday's Ha'aretz magazine.

He talks about unilateralism, Hamas, "the Rabin legacy," Kadima, Peretz, and how to reconcile Israeli and Palestinian dreams and political reality.It is a good (pretty long) read. [...] 47083 216 14_Re: Occupation11_Noam Stopak21_nstopak@STARPOWER.NET31_Sun, 12 Feb 2006 10:31:02 -0500542_iso-8859-1 I think this resort to name calling is out of place here Sam. The question discussion is about the use of the word occupation, and I think that Pearl is addressing the point I tried to raise - how do you really determine whose land it is. At what point in history do you say "yes, this is the legitimate owner" in a land which has been conquered, and promised so many times? Was the British claim legitimate and therefore the Balfour declaration? Was the Ottoman claim legit and therefore the ownership deeds they authorized? [...] 47300 107 14_Re: Occupation0_17_Smfgrappa@AOL.COM29_Sun, 12 Feb 2006 10:36:55 EST595_US-ASCII In a message dated 02/12/2006 10:31:47 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, nstopak@STARPOWER.NET writes:

think this resort to name calling is out of place here Sam. The question discussion is about the use of the word occupation, and I think that Pearl is addressing the point I tried to raise - how do you really determine whose land it is. At what point in history do you say "yes, this is the legitimate owner" in a land which has been conquered, and promised so many times? Was the British claim legitimate and therefore the Balfour declaration? Was the Ottoman claim legit and [...] 47408 42 19_Balfour Declaration12_David Fleiss20_dfleiss@PIPELINE.COM31_Sun, 12 Feb 2006 10:45:36 -0500643_ISO-8859-1 >>> as long as the Balfour Declaration has not been abrogated, Judea and Samaria belong to us at least as much if not more than they do to Arabs living there <<<

The Balfour Declaration?!? This Balfour Declaration?

"His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by [...] 47451 186 14_Re: Occupation11_Noam Stopak21_nstopak@STARPOWER.NET31_Sun, 12 Feb 2006 10:50:25 -0500473_iso-8859-1 "forces of darkness" and "extremist"

You deleted and ignored my agreement that the captive population was wrong and a bad idea. I find that offensive and an example of behavior for which you have chastised others in the past.

I bet you've been more offended.

Keep up the good fight

Noam ----- Original Message ----- From: Smfgrappa@AOL.COM To: HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2006 10:36 AM Subject: Re: Occupation [...] 47638 75 14_Re: Occupation0_17_Smfgrappa@AOL.COM29_Sun, 12 Feb 2006 10:53:23 EST461_US-ASCII In a message dated 02/12/2006 10:51:11 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, nstopak@STARPOWER.NET writes:

"forces of darkness" and "extremist"



I stand by that. I am amazed that you don't. The survival of Israel at stake. If Bibi prevails in this election and he might we are in trouble. Let me repeat I believe that there are forces of darkness and extremist both in Israel in Palestine. I think that is pretty much of a no brainier. [...] 47714 193 41_Re: Terrorism, who us? Was Beilin's Piece0_23_rdsmith1957@COMCAST.NET31_Sun, 12 Feb 2006 16:17:47 +0000306_- You mean he's a flip flopper??? That is the death knell for those in politics here because it shows that someone actually thinks about an issue. We prefer those how take a stand and never change despite any eveidence one way or the other. That shows balls. Changing your mind is a sign of weakness. [...] 47908 39 32_Re: experience living with Arabs11_Sylvia Lask14_SMLBOV@AOL.COM29_Sun, 12 Feb 2006 11:22:00 EST455_US-ASCII Pearl, thank you for sharing your experience with everyone and your insight. Sylvia

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To unsubscribe email: HABONET-unsubscribe-request@SHAMASH.ORG 47948 36 28_If not Occupation then What?0_23_rdsmith1957@COMCAST.NET31_Sun, 12 Feb 2006 16:45:05 +0000446_- For those that don't call it an occupation, what is it? If the land is "ours" and those people living there are not citizens what does that make "us?"

------------------------------------------------------------------------- The HABONET mailing list is hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org, a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ 47985 72 32_Re: If not Occupation then What?0_17_Smfgrappa@AOL.COM29_Sun, 12 Feb 2006 11:50:37 EST376_US-ASCII In a message dated 02/12/2006 11:45:33 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, rdsmith1957@COMCAST.NET writes:

For those that don't call it an occupation, what is it? If the land is "ours" and those people living there are not citizens what does that make "us?"



Well of course you are using common sense. Common sense does not play well with emotions. [...] 48058 64 32_Re: If not Occupation then What?12_Sue Liberman20_fiddlebach@YAHOO.COM31_Sun, 12 Feb 2006 09:12:30 -0800472_iso-8859-1 Yes, Sam, emotions need to be tempered with common sense- so tell that to the people mudering because of a cartoon!---All I am saying is that calling Israel- in general- as naming the country-as an "occupier"- is self-deprecating. The problem here is that there is no clear-cut solution, becuase there is no one to talk to, and the results of years of "non-negotiations" and death-threats to an entire country have resulted in an impossible situation. sue [...] 48123 61 23_Re: Balfour Declaration12_amnon hadary22_gershon-keileh@013.NET31_Sun, 12 Feb 2006 19:46:44 +0200646_iso-8859-1 Nice, David

Amnon ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Fleiss" To: Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2006 5:45 PM Subject: Balfour Declaration



> >>> as long as the Balfour Declaration has not been abrogated, Judea > and Samaria belong to us at least as much if not more than they do to > Arabs living there <<< > > The Balfour Declaration?!? This Balfour Declaration? > > "His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine > of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best > endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this [...] 48185 121 14_Re: Occupation11_Noam Stopak21_nstopak@STARPOWER.NET31_Sun, 12 Feb 2006 13:54:11 -0500334_iso-8859-1 Maybe I agree and maybe I don't (I'd hope that by now you know where I stand).

My point is that it is better to address the issues and leave out the labels.

Noam ----- Original Message ----- From: Smfgrappa@AOL.COM To: HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2006 10:53 AM Subject: Re: Occupation [...] 48307 198 17_Re: maha's mother12_Jessica Bonn21_jessicab@BEZEQINT.NET31_Sun, 12 Feb 2006 23:23:31 +0200561_windows-1255 Well, Pearl, I'm guilty of generalizing based on my bias - it was just an educated guess. How about you - are you insinuating that there is a cultural aspect to her lack of family cohesion? Just wondering. Anyhow, to reiterate my good wishes, I hope that you both can pursue this supportive relationship in an environment other than the hospital - Gd bless the hospital and keep it far, far from us. As for the anecdote about Rana and the theoretical boyfriend - what can I say but that this is a very difficult aspect of Muslim culture which [...] 48506 254 24_your eyes are brown, Sam13_Pearl Skolnik25_pskolnik@NETVISION.NET.IL31_Sun, 12 Feb 2006 23:12:46 +0200581_iso-8859-1 from the force of darkness: 1. I did not say, and never said I want to hold on to a large Arab population. I did write, however, that 90% of the Arabs of Judea and Samaria are now under complete control by the PA. 90%. It has also been discovered by demographic experts after thorough checking of official figures and documents that the Palestinian Authority claims 1,000,000 more population than really exists. 2. nobody threw acid on any soldiers. This was proven only a day after the accusation. It was well-hidden by the media because the media wants people to [...] 48761 25 27_cell phone rental in israel21_brian@cooperspace.net21_brian@COOPERSPACE.NET31_Sun, 12 Feb 2006 20:02:33 -0500527_ISO-8859-1 Hi all,

Anyone have suggestions for cell phone rental for 2 wk trip to Israel? Best to rent there? in the airport? here? are phone cards with my own cell a better approach? good companies?

thanks, brian

------------------------------------------------------------------------- The HABONET mailing list is hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org, a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 48787 82 58_maybe his eyes are brown, but your mouth is full of poison11_Noam Stopak21_nstopak@STARPOWER.NET31_Sun, 12 Feb 2006 22:11:10 -0500586_iso-8859-1 I will never lift a finger again to write in your defense. Sam forgive me, you were right ----- Original Message ----- From: Pearl Skolnik To: HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2006 4:12 PM Subject: your eyes are brown, Sam



from the force of darkness: 1

------------------------------------------------------------------------- The HABONET mailing list is hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org, a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ 48870 69 10_Brown Eyes0_23_rdsmith1957@COMCAST.NET31_Mon, 13 Feb 2006 03:26:03 +0000460_- Thanks for reminding me of that beautiful old folk song. I know it by Ramblin' Jack Eliott but apparantly many have done it. But you got the lyric wrong.

Brown Eyes traditional

Beautiful, beautiful brown eyes Beautiful, beautiful brown eyes Beautiful, beautiful brown eyes I'll never love blue eyes again

Willie, I love you, my Darlin' I love you with all my heart Tomorrow we might have been married But ramblin' has kept us apart [...] 48940 41 28_Re: your eyes are brown, Sam0_23_rdsmith1957@COMCAST.NET31_Mon, 13 Feb 2006 03:45:26 +0000281_- Pearl wrote: "I can not imagine anyone from the Movement in my day writing what some of the people on this list write."

We have found common ground Pearl, I can not imagine anyone from the Movement in my day writing what some pf the people on this list write either. [...] 48982 48 31_Re: cell phone rental in israel11_Batel Libes25_batel_libes@EARTHLINK.NET31_Sun, 12 Feb 2006 20:12:57 -0800433_us-ascii The least complicated way is to rent and return at the airport. I'm sure there are other options, but this way you get it done without having to run around for it.

Batel

-----Original Message----- From: Habonim Dror Alumni Virtual Machaneh [mailto:HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG] On Behalf Of brian@cooperspace.net Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2006 5:03 PM To: HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG Subject: cell phone rental in israel [...] 49031 112 31_Re: cell phone rental in israel0_14_kbob24@AOL.COM31_Sun, 12 Feb 2006 23:24:43 -0500366_us-ascii I use travelcell.com from the U.S. which comes out a little cheaper than renting in Ben Gurion. Not sure that you have time to get one before you leave. In terms of buying an Israeli card there and putting it into your own phone, make sure your phone is "unlocked" by your phone company here first. U.S. phone companies are REALLY weird about roaming. [...] 49144 59 10_tu b'shvat13_Pearl Skolnik25_pskolnik@NETVISION.NET.IL31_Sun, 12 Feb 2006 23:29:58 +0200605_windows-1255 Tonight, the evening before Tu B'shvat, my family surprised me with a tu b'shvat seder. They read special readings about trees and nature from the mekorot and various rabbis, sang songs about trees and plants, and prepared many fruits of the Land which they lovingly blessed. There was even one fruit which I never saw before on which we all said "shechiyanu." The grandchildren, some 11 children, filled out puzzles based on the holiday, and the children stayed up late, knowing that tomorrow there is no school. My son-in-law brought a few tree saplings which they will plant in their [...] 49204 74 23_Re: Balfour Declaration13_Pearl Skolnik25_pskolnik@NETVISION.NET.IL31_Mon, 13 Feb 2006 07:54:14 +0200570_iso-8859-1 you seem to forget that the Balfour Declaration included what is all of Jordan today, and also included the areas of Judea and Samaria. We are now located on a fraction of that land. Again, I repeat, because everyone seems to want to forget this point: 90% of the Arabs live in areas completely controlled by the PA. Who exactly are we occupying? There are tens of thousands of Arabs who have smuggled themselves into Israel, not to speak of the 140,000 we allowed to come live here "for family reunification" who are very happy they live in Israel. Are [...] 49279 43 23_Re: Balfour Declaration0_23_rdsmith1957@COMCAST.NET31_Mon, 13 Feb 2006 06:53:00 +0000554_- For some reason what Pearl has written reminded me of some things I had read in my studies of American history. The following is from a Virginia newspaper in 1859, something about it rings familiar.

We have never entertained a doubt that the condition of the Southern slaves is the best and most desirable for the negroes, as a class, that they have ever been found in or are capable of. There is abundant evidence to prove that the black man's lot as a slave, is vastly preferable to that of his free brethren at the North. A Boston paper [...] 49323 167 31_Re: cell phone rental in israel19_Aliya Cheskis-Cotel13_sc523@AOL.COM31_Mon, 13 Feb 2006 02:11:00 -0500 49491 87 3_sam13_Pearl Skolnik25_pskolnik@NETVISION.NET.IL31_Mon, 13 Feb 2006 08:47:57 +0200510_windows-1255 Sam, I sincerely apologize for what I wrote on the "subject" line of my letter. I tried to stop the letter from going out but it was too late. It was written in the heat of the moment, which was upsetting enough. I shall have to learn to count to ten -- or maybe 100 -- before I decide on a subject name. Or maybe to wait a day until I calm down. The strong emotions you elicit are not good for my health. You write in your letter generalities that are simply not true. It is well known that [...] 49579 184 10_maha again13_Pearl Skolnik25_pskolnik@NETVISION.NET.IL31_Mon, 13 Feb 2006 08:10:48 +0200590_windows-1255 Jessica, shalom, I wasn't insinuating anything. I could not understand what was behind her mother's not visiting her or her visiting her mother for 15 years, even though the trip takes about an hour or so. What I really found difficult to accept was her sister's and brother's refusal to be tested for bone marrow transplanting in order to save her life. There must be some family problem there. I could not ask, as it really was none of my business (despite curiosity). I don't think there is any other explanation, especially since many Arabs from Jordan and other Arab [...] 49764 68 21_habonim aliya figures13_Pearl Skolnik25_pskolnik@NETVISION.NET.IL31_Mon, 13 Feb 2006 08:58:08 +0200425_windows-1255 I would be interested to know how many Habonim graduates have made aliya in the last 10 years. Do such figures exist? Could someone post these figures for us?

The Sixth Workshop: out of 23 workshoppers, 10 made aliya, only one returned to America, and he is now going to return here in the near future. That is a high figure. The fourth Workshop olim also are many and meet regularly here in Israel. [...] 49833 160 23_Re: Balfour Declaration12_Jessica Bonn21_jessicab@BEZEQINT.NET31_Mon, 13 Feb 2006 10:50:10 +0200362_windows-1255 Thanks for the historical perspective, Richard - I see you remain true to your trade. In my eyes you're still a hero for doing that peula with us on the Nacerima. Nice work. Jessie

----- Original Message ----- From: rdsmith1957@COMCAST.NET To: HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG Sent: Monday, February 13, 2006 8:53 AM Subject: Re: Balfour Declaration [...] 49994 181 11_Re: RDSMITH13_Pearl Skolnik25_pskolnik@NETVISION.NET.IL31_Mon, 13 Feb 2006 11:12:24 +0200530_iso-8859-1 RD SMITH: I do believe that arabs have to be treated with respect and honorably. I have never said otherwise. I do believe that in the end they are going to have another state, and this should accord them what they want and deserve. I do not believe that it has to come at the expense of our total security. On a one to one basis arabs and jews get along famously. we are often more alike than are american jews and Israeli jews to one another. I do not understand why people read into what i write positions that [...] 50176 92 23_Re: Balfour Declaration0_23_rdsmith1957@COMCAST.NET31_Mon, 13 Feb 2006 09:39:52 +0000482_- Thank you for remembering.

-------------- Original message -------------- From: Jessica Bonn

Thanks for the historical perspective, Richard - I see you remain true to your trade. In my eyes you're still a hero for doing that peula with us on the Nacerima. Nice work. Jessie

----- Original Message ----- From: rdsmith1957@COMCAST.NET To: HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG Sent: Monday, February 13, 2006 8:53 AM Subject: Re: Balfour Declaration [...] 50269 44 11_Re: RDSMITH0_23_rdsmith1957@COMCAST.NET31_Mon, 13 Feb 2006 10:49:25 +0000377_- Pearl: "I do not understand why people read into what i write positions that I do not believe in, but people think I believe because I disagree with them on certain points."

I am sure that is probably true, but don't let it worry you as far as I am concerned. I have disagreements with what you actually write without delving into what it may, or may not, imply. [...] 50314 71 27_LINUS CORRUPTED BY INFIDELS8_Jon Baum19_jonbaum@SASA.ORG.IL31_Mon, 13 Feb 2006 13:15:10 +0200507_us-ascii More cartoon blasphemy, courtesy of Cracked:

http://cracked.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=250

Jon

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To unsubscribe email: HABONET-unsubscribe-request@SHAMASH.ORG 50386 147 7_Re: sam0_17_Smfgrappa@AOL.COM29_Mon, 13 Feb 2006 07:22:36 EST553_US-ASCII

In a message dated 02/13/2006 2:13:21 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, pskolnik@NETVISION.NET.IL writes:

Sam, I sincerely apologize for what I wrote on the "subject" line of my letter. I tried to stop the letter from going out but it was too late. It was written in the heat of the moment, which was upsetting enough. I shall have to learn to count to ten -- or maybe 100 -- before I decide on a subject name. Or maybe to wait a day until I calm down. The strong emotions you elicit are not good for my health. You write in your [...] 50534 69 19_Occupation or what?16_Elihu D. Davison25_elihu.davison@VERIZON.NET31_Mon, 13 Feb 2006 07:38:33 -0500429_us-ascii In Habonet 2006-42, Richard Smith asks

> For those that don't call it an occupation, what is it? If the land > is "ours" and those people living there are not citizens what does > that make "us?"

Answer: If the land is ours, then non-citizens must be squatters. They must either pay back rent or be evicted. If we don't follow through with either of those two options then we are lousy landlords. ;-) [...] 50604 262 5_Pearl0_17_Smfgrappa@AOL.COM29_Mon, 13 Feb 2006 08:04:40 EST454_US-ASCII In a message dated 02/13/2006 2:13:21 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, pskolnik@NETVISION.NET.IL writes:

Sam, I sincerely apologize for what I wrote on the "subject" line of my letter.



I was not offended.





You write in your letter generalities that are simply not true. But, you, too, have to stop repeating mantras that are not correct, and which have been refuted, but you continue to hold to them. [...] 50867 133 23_Re: Occupation or what?12_amnon hadary22_gershon-keileh@013.NET31_Mon, 13 Feb 2006 16:22:44 +0200612_iso-8859-1 Elihu you sly boots. I have learned from you that forensics is not only for the courtroom but does double duty as humor.

Amnon ----- Original Message ----- From: Elihu D. Davison To: HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG Sent: Monday, February 13, 2006 2:38 PM Subject: Occupation or what?



In Habonet 2006-42, Richard Smith asks For those that don't call it an occupation, what is it? If the land is "ours" and those people living there are not citizens what does that make "us?" Answer: If the land is ours, then non-citizens must be squatters. They must either pay back rent or be evicted. [...] 51001 352 9_Re: Pearl12_amnon hadary22_gershon-keileh@013.NET31_Mon, 13 Feb 2006 16:40:29 +0200352_iso-8859-1 Sam, that was a wonderful communication. I liked " I am an equal opportunity worrier." It sounds like Woody Allen and goes well with I am a songwriter. I see dark forces in things like that.

Amnon ----- Original Message ----- From: Smfgrappa@AOL.COM To: HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG Sent: Monday, February 13, 2006 3:04 PM Subject: Pearl [...] 51354 123 25_Re: habonim aliya figures0_14_kbob24@AOL.COM31_Mon, 13 Feb 2006 09:54:28 -0500569_us-ascii I don't think anyone has ever kept statistics on Habonim olim of any decade so all information I believe anyone of any era can offer is anecdotal. Since I have two ma'apilim age kids in the movement (both in Israel this year on Habonim programs) I hear about goings on in the movement and I can respond to Pearl's question.At recent veidot of the movement they have reaffirmed aliya as a top priority of the movement. Recent movement olim have founded two different urban communities, one in Migdal Ha'amek and one in Haifa. I am sure you will agree that [...] 51478 57 31_Re: cell phone rental in israel17_Sheldon and Heidi21_shelheid@ACTCOM.CO.IL31_Mon, 13 Feb 2006 18:10:55 +0200276_us-ascii Hi Brian - when Karen L. came I know she went through some company in the States that brought her a phone to her house. There were some problems that she had to deal with but she used it quite a bit. Have to ask her. Heidi

At 03:02 13/02/2006, you wrote: [...] 51536 510 38_Fw: Fw: The Leica Story / from rutheov11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@SOCAL.RR.COM31_Mon, 13 Feb 2006 09:10:11 -0800648_iso-8859-1

For those of you that would like further information, the book can be ordered as below.

Steve











'Leica Freedom Train' carried more than cameras

On Art







James Auer

I carry my Leica camera a bit more proudly these days. The reason? A story I had never heard before - a tale of courage, integrity and humility that is only now coming to light, some 70 years after the fact. The Leica is the pioneer 35mm camera. From a nitpicking point of view, it wasn't the very first still camera to use 35mm movie film, but it was the first to [...] 52047 74 35_Re: Tu B'shvat, Three B'shvat, Tree0_13_JLCAA@AOL.COM29_Mon, 13 Feb 2006 12:29:59 EST412_US-ASCII

In a message dated 2/12/2006 10:22:48 AM Eastern Standard Time, gershon-keileh@013.NET writes:

Five hundred kibbutz members, youth movements, various non Orthodox rabbis, organizations and just plain good guys have decided to plant olive trees at the Palestinian village of Kefir Salem to replace the ones cut down, uprooted and burned by the bully boys of the hillside settlements. [...] 52122 341 9_Re: Pearl12_Jessica Bonn21_jessicab@BEZEQINT.NET31_Mon, 13 Feb 2006 20:44:17 +0200485_ISO-8859-1 Amnon - aren't you going to nominate Sam and Pearl for this month's civility award? It's far more important than the Habonet Julitzer. Jessie ----- Original Message ----- From: Smfgrappa@AOL.COM To: HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG Sent: Monday, February 13, 2006 3:04 PM Subject: Pearl



In a message dated 02/13/2006 2:13:21 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, pskolnik@NETVISION.NET.IL writes: Sam, I sincerely apologize for what I wrote on the "subject" line of my letter. [...] 52464 46 35_Re: Tu B'shvat, Three B'shvat, Tree11_Sylvia Lask14_SMLBOV@AOL.COM29_Mon, 13 Feb 2006 13:46:36 EST386_US-ASCII What a great thing to do...planting the trees.......there are times, I get so upset with all the messages on this list that I read them and wonder........then when I read about the tree planting, I know why I stay on this list and am very grateful for the discussions....not too sure how many others from my era of Habonim are on this list but I am glad that I am. Sylvia [...] 52511 361 70_Re Officer Krupke, you've done it again. was: your eyes are brown, Sam12_amnon hadary22_gershon-keileh@013.NET31_Mon, 13 Feb 2006 21:16:00 +0200399_iso-8859-1 Pearl, I'll start with the third point of your message to Sam 3. Sam, when you live here and your life is in danger from these lovely chamasnikim, then you can argue with me.

We need passports to argue with you? My life, my childrens' lives, all Israelis' lives are now in danger, daily, from the Chamas and their suicide bombers, only perhaps abroad you don't hear about it. [...] 52873 139 35_Re: Tu B'shvat, Three B'shvat, Tree12_amnon hadary22_gershon-keileh@013.NET31_Mon, 13 Feb 2006 21:26:58 +0200655_iso-8859-1 Avi In the end I couldn't go. But if I find anything in the media I'll send it. Jon, did you you see anything? Amnon ----- Original Message ----- From: JLCAA@AOL.COM To: HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG Sent: Monday, February 13, 2006 7:29 PM Subject: Re: Tu B'shvat, Three B'shvat, Tree



In a message dated 2/12/2006 10:22:48 AM Eastern Standard Time, gershon-keileh@013.NET writes: Five hundred kibbutz members, youth movements, various non Orthodox rabbis, organizations and just plain good guys have decided to plant olive trees at the Palestinian village of Kefir Salem to replace the ones cut down, uprooted and burned by the bully [...] 53013 102 18_Miracles do happen12_Sue Liberman20_fiddlebach@YAHOO.COM31_Mon, 13 Feb 2006 11:27:19 -0800569_iso-8859-1 I was really touched at the conciliatory tones both in Sam's and Pearl's postings. If they can "negotiate a truce"- maybe if we all "pray" and sloe our eyes tight and squeeze hard- Hamas and Us can do the same....????.......sue

Jessica Bonn wrote: Amnon - aren't you going to nominate Sam and Pearl for this month's civility award? It's far more important than the Habonet Julitzer. Jessie ----- Original Message ----- From: Smfgrappa@AOL.COM To: HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG Sent: Monday, February 13, 2006 3:04 PM Subject: Pearl [...] 53116 131 84_Fro Amnon-Re: Re Officer Krupke, you've done it again. was: your eyes are brown, Sam12_Sue Liberman20_fiddlebach@YAHOO.COM31_Mon, 13 Feb 2006 12:14:36 -0800575_iso-8859-1 Let me preafce this with the comment that, for so long, we have been exposed to personal attacks on this list, when instead, we should have focused on the issues. I find it enlightening that Pearl and Sam have been able to come to some kind of communication after having gone through life-threatening illnesses- but maybe that is what it takes for "enemies" to learn what is important and to find some way of finding a common dialogue-...Perhaps it is impossible, though, to separate the person from the issues- but I am going to list my own reaction to this [...] 53248 203 35_Re: Tu B'shvat, Three B'shvat, Tree8_Jon Baum19_jonbaum@SASA.ORG.IL31_Mon, 13 Feb 2006 22:19:25 +0200456_us-ascii Nope. Too much Naomi Blumenthal and pedoephilia in the news tonight.

-----Original Message----- From: Habonim Dror Alumni Virtual Machaneh [mailto:HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG] On Behalf Of amnon hadary Sent: Monday, February 13, 2006 9:27 PM To: HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG Subject: Re: Tu B'shvat, Three B'shvat, Tree



Avi In the end I couldn't go. But if I find anything in the media I'll send it. Jon, did you you see anything? Amnon [...] 53452 317 35_[QUAR] Fw: Help Stop the Hypocrisy!11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@SOCAL.RR.COM31_Mon, 13 Feb 2006 12:19:43 -0800650_iso-8859-1 ADL Consider signing

Steve



Subject: Help Stop the Hypocrisy!



Having trouble viewing this message? View online in graphical, HTML format. Take a look at any typical newspaper in the Muslim world. Every day you will see offensive cartoon caricatures of Jews.

a.. Jews with fangs dripping blood b.. Jews as shadowy figures hoarding money or gold c.. Jews controlling the world The Nazis used these anti-Semitic images as a license to kill. For decades they have appeared nearly every day in state-influenced media outlets from Egypt to Iran with one clear goal: to incite hatred against Jews. [...] 53770 71 19_Zionism and Judaism0_26_Sharon_Gates@LONGBEACH.GOV31_Mon, 13 Feb 2006 15:32:54 -0800523_us-ascii This interchange made me think:

5. Zionism without Judaism, without our past, is barren, and has proven to be a failure. The early zionists came with a rich background in Judaism, many having learned in Yeshivot before coming to Palestine, almost all having come from truly Jewish backgrounds. Judaism was part of their lives. They came on aliya out of thoroughgoing revaluation of diasporic "Jewish" life and it's rejection. Don't lecture us poor heathens, read Bialik, Brenner and Ahad Ha'am instead [...] 53842 69 23_Re: Zionism and Judaism12_Sue Liberman20_fiddlebach@YAHOO.COM31_Mon, 13 Feb 2006 16:00:33 -0800598_iso-8859-1 I am not sure exactly what you mean..Israel is a Jewish State; Hebrew, not Latin, is its official language; Shabbat is Friday night and Saturday, not Sunday. And Israelis are allowed to eat meat on Fridays, not just fish....otherwise, Christians are allowed in Israel- they even have a kibbutz or two- but making it a Christian State- is that what you mean? Or if you are talking now about Christian Zionists- do you mean a branch of Jews for Jesus?...or the fundamentalists who see Israle as the stepping-stone to the Rapture?- There are plenty of Christians who support Israel as [...] 53912 63 27_PS- Re: Zionism and Judaism12_Sue Liberman20_fiddlebach@YAHOO.COM31_Mon, 13 Feb 2006 16:03:51 -0800349_iso-8859-1 Ther is also a very strong organization founded by a rabbi called the International Fellowship of Christians and Jews run out of Chicago- which nurtures a "Zionistic" approach to Christians and does a lot of programming and tours for Christians to Israel. You should visit their website (www.ifcj.org) if you are so interested...sue [...] 53976 120 11_Re: RDSMITH11_Noam Stopak21_nstopak@STARPOWER.NET31_Mon, 13 Feb 2006 20:37:32 -0500365_iso-8859-1 Pearl,

I'm unable to reconcile this desire to treat Arabs with respect and honor when you repeat the misleading information that 90% of the Arabs live under Palestinian rule. I guess by the same token you feel that the Jews of the Warsaw ghetto were treated with respect and honor since they were left to govern themselves for the most part. [...] 54097 33 41_Re: From a "fool and a knave" (per Amnon)11_Noam Stopak21_nstopak@STARPOWER.NET31_Mon, 13 Feb 2006 20:37:56 -0500519_iso-8859-1 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pearl Skolnik" To: Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2006 12:09 AM Subject: Re: From a "fool and a knave" (per Amnon)



> When it was feared by the Arabs that Um al Fahm would be given over to the > PA, they threatened to make an intifada that no one would ever forget. > The Arabs want to stay on the Israeli side of the border whenever and > whereever it is possible. They know what is good for them. pearl > [...] 54131 61 31_Re: cell phone rental in israel21_brian@cooperspace.net21_brian@COOPERSPACE.NET31_Mon, 13 Feb 2006 21:15:14 -0500523_ISO-8859-1 Thanks! And thanks to everyone who replied off-list. Very helpful suggestions all.

--brian

Sheldon and Heidi wrote: > Hi Brian - > when Karen L. came I know she went through some company in the States > that brought her a phone to her house. > There were some problems that she had to deal with but she used it quite > a bit. Have to ask her. > Heidi > > At 03:02 13/02/2006, you wrote: > >> Hi all, >> >> Anyone have suggestions for cell phone rental for 2 wk trip to Israel? >> Best to rent [...] 54193 149 26_Our roots, DNA, and Israel0_23_jacknusan@EARTHLINK.NET31_Mon, 13 Feb 2006 22:27:11 -0500 54343 123 35_Re: Tu B'shvat, Three B'shvat, Tree13_Pearl Skolnik25_pskolnik@NETVISION.NET.IL31_Mon, 13 Feb 2006 23:07:54 +0200514_iso-8859-1 if you would see the pictures of the trees that the arabs claimed were cut down, uprooted, etc., you would see, as everyone did who has eyes in his head and knows anything about pruning, that the trees were pruned and NOT cut down. This is common practice so that in future there will be larger harvest of olives on the trees. Why would anyone bother to cut back 5 or 6 branches when all they had to do was to cut once at the trunk to cut down a tree? Why cut the branches back with so much effort [...] 54467 325 22_Re: Miracles do happen13_Pearl Skolnik25_pskolnik@NETVISION.NET.IL31_Tue, 14 Feb 2006 07:45:13 +0200460_iso-8859-1 who in this case is the Hamas and who exactly is "us?" pearl ----- Original Message ----- From: Sue Liberman To: HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG Sent: Monday, February 13, 2006 9:27 PM Subject: Miracles do happen



I was really touched at the conciliatory tones both in Sam's and Pearl's postings. If they can "negotiate a truce"- maybe if we all "pray" and sloe our eyes tight and squeeze hard- Hamas and Us can do the same....????.......sue [...] 54793 144 7_Re: 90%13_Pearl Skolnik25_pskolnik@NETVISION.NET.IL31_Tue, 14 Feb 2006 08:01:10 +0200528_iso-8859-1 I don't understand, Noam, why you write that 90% of the Arabs are now under PA rule and jurisdiction is false information. Where do you get YOUR information from? This is a widely accepted figure in Israel and is always quoted when necessary in the media. It is hardly a ghetto. I would not expect from you or anyone else on this list to compare us to Nazis -- or maybe I should not be surprised...... If we have checkpoints then it is to protect us from some of those 90% who wish to kill us and blow up within [...] 54938 198 35_Re: Tu B'shvat, Three B'shvat, Tree12_Jessica Bonn21_jessicab@BEZEQINT.NET31_Tue, 14 Feb 2006 08:39:57 +0200590_ISO-8859-1 Yuval also missed out on the transport at the last minute - but Lilach from RHR reports that the turnout was excellent. Jessie ----- Original Message ----- From: amnon hadary To: HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG Sent: Monday, February 13, 2006 9:26 PM Subject: Re: Tu B'shvat, Three B'shvat, Tree



Avi In the end I couldn't go. But if I find anything in the media I'll send it. Jon, did you you see anything? Amnon ----- Original Message ----- From: JLCAA@AOL.COM To: HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG Sent: Monday, February 13, 2006 7:29 PM Subject: Re: Tu B'shvat, Three B'shvat, Tree [...] 55137 330 23_Re: Zionism and Judaism12_Jessica Bonn21_jessicab@BEZEQINT.NET31_Tue, 14 Feb 2006 09:00:51 +0200659_ISO-8859-1 The ethnic diversity of the Israeli population is definitely a contributor to the relative difficulty in conveying/building particular national ethoses. In the end, it is consumerism and individualism that triumph, no? Brings to mind: There is a lovely project for Ethiopian kids run by the SPNI (haganat hateva) that uses the language and symbols of Ethiopian culture to take kids from disadvantaged communities on tiyulim, strengthen their connection w/the land etc. Has greatly increased the percentages staying in H.School and entering army in the communities where it was implemented - check it out on their website if you're looking for [...] 55468 265 35_Re: Tu B'shvat, Three B'shvat, Tree12_Jessica Bonn21_jessicab@BEZEQINT.NET31_Tue, 14 Feb 2006 09:27:58 +0200613_ISO-8859-1 RHR is not so naive - I've spoken with the director myself. You can tell the difference between pruned and vandalized trees. To be fair, I heard one report of the operation yesterday complaining of a lack of feeling of hospitality from the villagers - as if the Jewish visitors were doing what they 'owed' them. Why not concentrate some of the understandable questions here on the Habonet and fwd them to the director, Arik Ascherman, rather than rely on our collective and respectively biased conjectures. I volunteer - please forward. Jessie ----- Original Message ----- From: Pearl Skolnik To: [...] 55734 90 3_90%0_17_Smfgrappa@AOL.COM29_Tue, 14 Feb 2006 08:37:34 EST580_US-ASCII The widely accepted 90% that has been mentioned is one of only many widely accepted percentages. The most famous one was stated by George Burns, Gracie's husband. He said that 50% of all married couples are women. At first this seemed so self evident as to be trivial. But on second thought there are problems with this statistic. For a long time I was troubled by Burn's percentage because I believed he failed to take into account polygamy. Only recently did I realize that a man with two wives could not be considered a married couple. They constituted a married [...] 55825 119 39_Re: [QUAR] Fw: Help Stop the Hypocrisy!12_Sue Liberman20_fiddlebach@YAHOO.COM31_Tue, 14 Feb 2006 07:43:47 -0800573_iso-8859-1 Steve- I am afraid trhis is a useless pursuit.....sue

--- Steve Klein wrote:

> ADL > Consider signing > > Steve > > > Subject: Help Stop the Hypocrisy! > > > Having trouble viewing this message? View online > in graphical, HTML format. > Take a look at any typical newspaper in > the Muslim world. > Every day you will see offensive cartoon > caricatures of Jews. > > a.. Jews with fangs dripping blood > b.. Jews as shadowy figures hoarding > money or gold > c.. Jews controlling the world > The Nazis used these [...] 55945 236 13_The Other War8_Jon Baum19_jonbaum@SASA.ORG.IL31_Tue, 14 Feb 2006 19:05:46 +0200662_iso-8859-1 Pictures Worth a Thousand Lives A review of The Other War: Israelis, Palestinians and the Struggle for Media Supremacy by Stephanie Gutmann

By Joseph Tartakovsky Posted January 6, 2006

Stephanie Gutmann is a talented American journalist who has covered the Israeli-Palestinian conflict for a variety of publications. The Other War is a carefully researched, on-the-ground account of the media skirmishes that take place each day and collectively determine how that conflict is portrayed to the world. Her book, detailed and convincing, is written with a wry wit that makes it a pleasure to read, despite the gravity of her subject. [...] 56182 109 7_Re: 90%0_26_Sharon_Gates@LONGBEACH.GOV31_Tue, 14 Feb 2006 09:32:44 -0800458_us-ascii Spoken (written) like a true academic! There's a PhD thesis hiding in there, somewhere.

Sharon

P.S. Sam, I'm not poking fun at you; in fact, I agree with what you're saying.









Smfgrappa@AOL.COM Sent by: Habonim Dror Alumni Virtual Machaneh 02/14/2006 05:37 AM Please respond to Habonim Dror Alumni Virtual Machaneh



To: HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG cc: Subject: 90% [...] 56292 161 7_Re: 90%0_26_Sharon_Gates@LONGBEACH.GOV31_Tue, 14 Feb 2006 09:39:32 -0800484_us-ascii Beware of the "widely accepted" though unsubstantiated statistic. If you want to make a point, Pearl, cite your sources. Otherwise, quoting "widely accepted" statistics is nothing more than hearsay. And I notice that the "90%" slid unnoticed from the percentage living under Palestinian rule to the percentage "who wish to kill us." This may be a slip of the fingers and simply a bit of unclear writing, but it is illustrative of the dangers of unattributed statistics. [...] 56454 50 23_Re: Zionism and Judaism0_26_Sharon_Gates@LONGBEACH.GOV31_Tue, 14 Feb 2006 09:41:24 -0800605_us-ascii Jessica wrote: "The ethnic diversity of the Israeli population is definitely a contributor to the relative difficulty in conveying/building particular national ethoses. In the end, it is consumerism and individualism that triumph, no?"

Welcome to California.

-Sharon





------------------------------------------------------------------------- The HABONET mailing list is hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org, a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 56505 942 7_Re: 90%0_14_LHIAM1@AOL.COM29_Tue, 14 Feb 2006 13:10:16 EST613_US-ASCII The very common and often (if not over-quoted) statistic of 90% of Palestinians live under Palestinian rule is at best misleading if not patently false. The number originally came to be during the time period that Pearl so vehemently calls one of Israel's largest mistakes - the Oslo accords. It represents the Palestinians who live under those areas of OCCUPIED territory defined as areas A and B. Taken at face value the number is not totally incorrect BUT that statistic ignores the 200,000 or 300,000 (depending who is counting) Palestinians who live in East Jerusalem - which was ignored (much [...] 57448 116 35_Re: 90%-the question of Jerusalem--12_Sue Liberman20_fiddlebach@YAHOO.COM31_Tue, 14 Feb 2006 10:34:02 -0800646_iso-8859-1 To those of you who are involoved int eh "occupation" problem- I had brought up the question of Jerusalem before--how do you deal with that...I really would liek to know and I am not being cynical; should East Jerusalem be "returned"???- sue

Sharon_Gates@LONGBEACH.GOV wrote: Beware of the "widely accepted" though unsubstantiated statistic. If you want to make a point, Pearl, cite your sources. Otherwise, quoting "widely accepted" statistics is nothing more than hearsay. And I notice that the "90%" slid unnoticed from the percentage living under Palestinian rule to the percentage "who wish to kill us." This may be a [...] 57565 1998 33_Habonim aliyah and UPZ Birthright12_Alex Sharone22_mazkir@HABONIMDROR.ORG31_Tue, 14 Feb 2006 14:03:59 -0500618_windows-1250 Habonim Dror graduates are building an intentional community in Israel aptly named the T’nuat Bogrim. In addition to the 2 locations Ken mentioned, there are also Habonim kvutzot living in Jerusalem and Harish (formerly in Tel Aviv.) In the past few years we have seen movement leaders from HNDA make aliyah and join this community. And there are stirrings of more gariniei aliyah emerging from the movement here with the intention of joining this network of urban kibbutzim. There has been much published about this phenomenon, in which Habonim is playing a key role. One overview can be found here [...] 59564 406 39_It's Sad For Our Country- Daniel Gordis11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@MJDS.ORG31_Tue, 14 Feb 2006 14:20:13 -0600741_ISO-8859-1 To be published this summer: COMING TOGETHER, COMING APART: A MEMOIR OF HEARTBREAK AND PROMISE IN ISRAEL, covering the years 2003 through the present, from the depths of the Intifada through the disengagement.

The Amazon link is http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0471789615/qid=1136214901/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/103-6767360-7135841?n=507846&s=books&v=glance





The damnedest things happen in airports. Avi and I were on our way to Washington, DC to meet the rest of our clan for a family Bat Mitzvah. We landed at JFK, switched terminals and waited for our short flight from New York to Washington. Cooling our heels, I decided to wander over to the Starbucks counter to get us something to [...] 59971 413 42_Daniel Gordis - "It's Sad For Our Country"16_Elihu D. Davison25_elihu.davison@VERIZON.NET31_Tue, 14 Feb 2006 15:35:34 -0500533_windows-1252 *** To join this list, send a BLANK email to:

gordis-subscribe@topica.com. Or see www.danielgordis.org for more information.

*** To be published this summer: COMING TOGETHER, COMING APART: A MEMOIR OF HEARTBREAK AND PROMISE IN ISRAEL, covering the years 2003 through the present, from the depths of the Intifada through the disengagement.

The Amazon link is http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0471789615/qid=1136214901/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/103-6767360-7135841?n=507846&s=books&v=glance [...] 60385 453 37_Re: Habonim aliyah and UPZ Birthright0_23_rdsmith1957@COMCAST.NET31_Tue, 14 Feb 2006 20:51:02 +0000668_- It may be me, but please, explain what an "intentional community" is?

-------------- Original message -------------- From: Alex Sharone

Habonim Dror graduates are building an intentional community in Israel aptly named the T’nuat Bogrim. In addition to the 2 locations Ken mentioned, there are also Habonim kvutzot living in Jerusalem and Harish (formerly in Tel Aviv.) In the past few years we have seen movement leaders from HNDA make aliyah and join this community. And there are stirrings of more gariniei aliyah emerging from the movement here with the intention of joining this network of urban kibbutzim. There has [...] 60839 336 7_Re: 90%11_Noam Stopak21_nstopak@STARPOWER.NET31_Tue, 14 Feb 2006 16:03:52 -0500508_iso-8859-1 Since you're not interested in my opinion I wonder why you bother to respond. I guess I missed the notice that you are the arbiter of who can speak on which topics on this list. Hmmm, I wonder why you would think anyone would ascribe totalitarian tendencies to you? Be that as it may, it was not my point at all. I was not addressing you personally, but rather the idea that "90% of the Arabs are under PA rule and jurrisdiction" means they are free to live their lives the same as you or I. [...] 61176 116 41_Re: 90% -sad for all of us-(per Gordis)--12_Sue Liberman20_fiddlebach@YAHOO.COM31_Tue, 14 Feb 2006 13:24:51 -0800553_iso-8859-1 I think that Noam has raised some points which are so valid. I also feell Daniel Gordis' article - while speaking of the sadness he feels for Israel- can be paralleled to this little list of Jewish Zionist (?) people too...A lot of hatred and anger, and we aren't even physically close. How sad that we have to name-call and attack (and I am guilty too)..instead, as I try and try-to deal with the issues and not the people. I guess it IS an impossible thing to do. Gordis's sadness for the country of Israel- which was expressed by his [...] 61293 225 7_Re: 90%0_26_Sharon_Gates@LONGBEACH.GOV31_Tue, 14 Feb 2006 13:55:02 -0800569_us-ascii C'mon, Noam, where ya been? Pearl appointed herself arbiter of who may or may not speak on any particular topic long ago. You know that we who live outside Israel are not allowed to express opinions about Israeli politics, or the occupation (sorry, I can't think of any other word for it), or virtually anything of substance. I suppose we can have opinions, but we should keep them to ourselves. We are in no position to comment on the disengagement, or even if we prefer the color blue to the color orange. We may reminisce about machaneh and even about [...] 61519 144 29_Re: 90% Here we go again.....12_Sue Liberman20_fiddlebach@YAHOO.COM31_Tue, 14 Feb 2006 14:24:37 -0800565_iso-8859-1 You are misconstruing what Pearl said; I know this, because everyone else feels that way- but I have had long encounters with her offline and I think I understand from "whence" she comes. Pearl was merely stating the FACT that we in the galut can not have the same emotional and physical experiences as people living in Israel. This is a fact. We are not there; we are here. Things are more intense there- we have to admit this. It doesn't mean we can't have opnions about things and espress them. They may be different-opposed to- or even the same [...] 61664 141 29_Re: 90% Here we go again.....0_26_Sharon_Gates@LONGBEACH.GOV31_Tue, 14 Feb 2006 15:16:06 -0800505_us-ascii Pearl hasn't just said that we who live outside Israel cannot have the same emotional or physical experiences as people living in Israel. She has said that we outside Israel cannot understand what is happening in Israel. She has said, in so many words: you can't talk, you don't live here. I'd search the Habonet archives for examples, but I have better things to do with my time. I was not attacking her or calling her names, I was reminding Noam (and anybody else) of things she has said. [...] 61806 188 16_namecalling.....12_Sue Liberman20_fiddlebach@YAHOO.COM31_Tue, 14 Feb 2006 17:08:02 -0800566_iso-8859-1 In answer to your question- I can think of some people in this administration who should be called names- like people who don't know how to aim a gun, people who ignore the suffering of the people who survived the hurricanes; people who don't care about the healthcare system in this country; people who abuse women and children ( and men, for that matter)...I wouldn't find it hard to call them names.....And I still feel that Pearl has a right to feel however she does about the issue of galut-livers and those who live in Israel and the degree to [...] 61995 200 8_Vacation12_Sue Liberman20_fiddlebach@YAHOO.COM31_Tue, 14 Feb 2006 17:11:48 -0800376_iso-8859-1 I am taking a "vacation" from Habonet--Anyone who wants or needs to email me can do it privately; the world is too crazy and I have a headache, and too many things going on....I love many of the people who do and don't participate- but I have some things going on ( good things, actually) which are taking a lot of my time, and I have to focus. ---"lhit"- sue [...] 62196 256 26_Re: a question for habonet12_amnon hadary22_gershon-keileh@013.NET31_Wed, 15 Feb 2006 12:25:12 +0200570_windows-1255 Sharon,

You wrote: It made me wonder how Ben Gurion ended his career and his life, or how Golda did. I have no personal memory of Ben Gurion, though I remember watching Golda on TV and, of course, hearing about her from my mother and grandmother. It seems to me that Ben Gurion would be father figure #1, but Gordis didn't mention him. So, reb Hadary, tell me about the end of Ben Gurion's and Golda's political careers. Did they ride off into the sunset? Did they lose control of their party and slink away? Was there national trauma involved? [...] 62453 59 11_Muslim rave8_Jon Baum19_jonbaum@SASA.ORG.IL31_Wed, 15 Feb 2006 13:19:06 +0200411_us-ascii http://www.glumbert.com/media/rave.html

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To unsubscribe email: HABONET-unsubscribe-request@SHAMASH.ORG 62513 282 7_Re: 90%17_Sheldon and Heidi21_shelheid@ACTCOM.CO.IL31_Wed, 15 Feb 2006 13:31:22 +0200467_us-ascii



No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.15.8/260 - Release Date: 14/02/2006

------------------------------------------------------------------------- The HABONET mailing list is hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org, a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 62796 58 26_Cell phone bill in Israelk0_16_BERNSARA@AOL.COM29_Wed, 15 Feb 2006 08:25:23 EST305_US-ASCII Not sure who to send to so I am sending this to all Hab. numbers. My credit card was stolen. I have a new card. I have not been able to reach the cell phone co. in Israel. Can you reach them for me so that they do not cut off Katana's cell phone. Bernie Schiff My home phone is 248 542 0290 [...] 62855 37 7_Re: 90%11_Noam Stopak21_nstopak@STARPOWER.NET31_Wed, 15 Feb 2006 10:24:35 -0500377_- Heidi wrote:

"Now Noam, does not disputes this claim, he just says that if they are not free to leave (aren't they free to leave the WB and Gaza?) it doesn't matter who's authority they are under - it is just like the Jewish ghettos of Nazi Germany. Come on, Noam, I know you were annoyed at Pearl, but do you really believe they the two situations are similar?" [...] 62893 49 7_Re: 90%0_23_rdsmith1957@COMCAST.NET31_Wed, 15 Feb 2006 16:07:43 +0000569_- Nor do they control their water supply.

-------------- Original message ---------------------- From: Noam Stopak > Heidi wrote: > > "Now Noam, does not disputes this claim, he just says that if they are not > free to leave (aren't they free to leave the WB and Gaza?) it doesn't matter > who's authority they are under - it is just like the Jewish ghettos of Nazi > Germany. Come on, Noam, I know you were annoyed at Pearl, but do you really > believe they the two situations are similar?" > > I'm not annoyed at Pearl, but rather [...] 62943 42 30_Re: Cell phone bill in Israelk11_Sylvia Lask14_SMLBOV@AOL.COM29_Wed, 15 Feb 2006 11:18:10 EST479_US-ASCII Bernie, sorry about your cell phone. Just had to reply because I never or hardly ever see a name of someone I know on the list. Hope your problem is resolved. Sylvia Lask

------------------------------------------------------------------------- The HABONET mailing list is hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org, a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 62986 66 7_Re: 90%0_26_Sharon_Gates@LONGBEACH.GOV31_Wed, 15 Feb 2006 08:18:51 -0800515_us-ascii Heidi wrote: Sharon, Pearl may have her own agenda, but let us look at this logically. Most people, even in the WB live in cities. The cities are under the control of the PA as is most of the surrounding land. Look at the map of the PA - aside from Jerusalem, where is there a major population center that is under Israeli authority? Notice that noone is speaking about Israeli Palestinians. Why is a knee jerk reaction necessary? If it is not 90% (a statistic I have heard as well) it must be close. [...] 63053 79 7_Re: 90%8_Jon Baum19_jonbaum@SASA.ORG.IL31_Wed, 15 Feb 2006 18:21:21 +0200711_US-ASCII Hey, if Ariel Sharon could call it an "occupation," it's good enough for me. He would know...

Jon

-----Original Message----- From: Habonim Dror Alumni Virtual Machaneh [mailto:HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG] On Behalf Of rdsmith1957@COMCAST.NET Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2006 6:08 PM To: HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG Subject: Re: 90%



Nor do they control their water supply.

-------------- Original message ---------------------- From: Noam Stopak > Heidi wrote: > > "Now Noam, does not disputes this claim, he just says that if they are > not free to leave (aren't they free to leave the WB and Gaza?) it > doesn't matter who's authority they are under [...] 63133 63 45_[QUAR] Another Israeli human rights violation8_Jon Baum19_jonbaum@SASA.ORG.IL31_Wed, 15 Feb 2006 19:30:41 +0200422_US-ASCII On the other hand, before they had TV, they simply might have been bored. Jon

Israelis Credit TV for Pacifying Prisoners



By MARK LAVIE The Associated Press Saturday, February 11, 2006; 9:23 PM



JERUSALEM -- Israeli army jailers at a tough facility for Palestinian security prisoners in the Negev desert have discovered a unique deterrent against disturbances: television. [...] 63197 172 7_Re: 90%11_Judy Gelman16_gelman@EROLS.COM31_Wed, 15 Feb 2006 13:49:35 -0500552_ISO-8859-1 What about all the Palestinians in East Jerusalem? Judy

Sheldon and Heidi wrote:

> Sharon, Pearl may have her own agenda, but let us look at this > logically. Most people, even in the WB live in cities. The cities are > under the control of the PA as is most of the surrounding land. Look > at the map of the PA - aside from Jerusalem, where is there a major > population center that is under Israeli authority? Notice that noone > is speaking about Israeli Palestinians. Why is a knee jerk reaction > necessary? If it is [...] 63370 81 49_Re: [QUAR] Another Israeli human rights violation11_Judy Gelman16_gelman@EROLS.COM31_Wed, 15 Feb 2006 13:56:14 -0500623_ISO-8859-1 That's a lower incarceration rate than DC's or the US in general. Judy

Jon Baum wrote:

>On the other hand, before they had TV, they simply might have been bored. >Jon > >Israelis Credit TV for Pacifying Prisoners > > >By MARK LAVIE >The Associated Press >Saturday, February 11, 2006; 9:23 PM > > >JERUSALEM -- Israeli army jailers at a tough facility for Palestinian >security prisoners in the Negev desert have discovered a unique deterrent >against disturbances: television. > >In the year since the first TV set was installed in the Ketziot prison, >there have been no serious disturbances [...] 63452 49 49_Re: [QUAR] Another Israeli human rights violation11_Noam Stopak21_nstopak@STARPOWER.NET31_Wed, 15 Feb 2006 14:06:03 -0500388_- And "mayor-for-life" Marion Barry isn't even back in jail yet :-)

But does this one facility account for the entire incarceration rate?

Is the assertion that the use of TV isn't to improve the humanitatian situation accurate or gratuitous Washington Post anti-Israeli bias?

Noam

On Wed, 15 Feb 2006 13:56:14 -0500, Judy Gelman wrote: [...] 63502 166 49_Re: [QUAR] Another Israeli human rights violation0_26_Sharon_Gates@LONGBEACH.GOV31_Wed, 15 Feb 2006 11:16:29 -0800513_us-ascii If TV can do this to prisoners, imagine what it's doing to your children (and you).

Sharon









Noam Stopak Sent by: Habonim Dror Alumni Virtual Machaneh 02/15/2006 11:06 AM Please respond to Habonim Dror Alumni Virtual Machaneh



To: HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG cc: Subject: Re: [QUAR] Another Israeli human rights violation



And "mayor-for-life" Marion Barry isn't even back in jail yet :-) [...] 63669 72 49_Re: [QUAR] Another Israeli human rights violation8_Jon Baum19_jonbaum@SASA.ORG.IL31_Wed, 15 Feb 2006 21:12:40 +0200448_US-ASCII I hear that Amnesty International is getting involved because the prisoners are watching Oprah.

-----Original Message----- From: Habonim Dror Alumni Virtual Machaneh [mailto:HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG] On Behalf Of Noam Stopak Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2006 9:06 PM To: HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG Subject: Re: [QUAR] Another Israeli human rights violation



And "mayor-for-life" Marion Barry isn't even back in jail yet :-) [...] 63742 27 49_Re: [QUAR] Another Israeli human rights violation11_Noam Stopak21_nstopak@STARPOWER.NET31_Wed, 15 Feb 2006 16:36:11 -0500309_- On Wed, 15 Feb 2006 11:16:29 -0800, Sharon_Gates@LONGBEACH.GOV wrote:

>If TV can do this to prisoners, imagine what it's doing to your children >(and you). > >Sharon > >

Doesn't seem to be working to lower the level of conflict on habonet - maybe we should all watch a little more TV :-) [...] 63770 346 8_Fw:Tevya12_Jessica Bonn21_jessicab@BEZEQINT.NET31_Wed, 15 Feb 2006 23:35:14 +02001070_ISO-8859-1

Zero Mostel always did look a bit Japonese to me... Better translate this than the Protocols...









TEVIE LLEGÓ A JAPÓN

-----ENTRA A ESTE LINK

http://www.toho.co.jp/stage/yane2005/asx/yane_r1_low.asx



















mail.afikim.org.il



************************************************************************************ This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals & computer viruses. ************************************************************************************ mail.afikim.org.il





************************************************************************************ This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals & computer viruses. ************************************************************************************ [...] 64117 120 49_Re: [QUAR] Another Israeli human rights violation0_26_Sharon_Gates@LONGBEACH.GOV31_Wed, 15 Feb 2006 13:42:03 -0800580_us-ascii Must be my fault; I don't watch any TV.

Sharon









Noam Stopak Sent by: Habonim Dror Alumni Virtual Machaneh 02/15/2006 01:36 PM Please respond to Habonim Dror Alumni Virtual Machaneh



To: HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG cc: Subject: Re: [QUAR] Another Israeli human rights violation



On Wed, 15 Feb 2006 11:16:29 -0800, Sharon_Gates@LONGBEACH.GOV wrote:

>If TV can do this to prisoners, imagine what it's doing to your children >(and you). > >Sharon > > [...] 64238 70 49_Re: [QUAR] Another Israeli human rights violation12_Jessica Bonn21_jessicab@BEZEQINT.NET31_Wed, 15 Feb 2006 22:26:19 +0200638_windows-1255 So, what does this tell us about our kids and tv quotas? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Noam Stopak" To: Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2006 9:06 PM Subject: Re: [QUAR] Another Israeli human rights violation



> And "mayor-for-life" Marion Barry isn't even back in jail yet :-) > > But does this one facility account for the entire incarceration rate? > > Is the assertion that the use of TV isn't to improve the humanitatian > situation accurate or gratuitous Washington Post anti-Israeli bias? > > Noam > > On Wed, 15 Feb 2006 13:56:14 -0500, Judy Gelman [...] 64309 268 49_Re: [QUAR] Another Israeli human rights violation12_Jessica Bonn21_jessicab@BEZEQINT.NET31_Wed, 15 Feb 2006 23:17:43 +0200591_ISO-8859-1 Exactly my point (but I see my post hasn't gotten through). Let's just show that 90% more tv. Maybe it will also solve their water problem. Let's recommend that the new govt. spend our tax money that used to go to the settlements to instead install cable in the refugee camps. I used to think we needed to teach C++ in Gaza, but now I'm wiser - to borrow from the revolutionary war (New Hampshire): 'Live tv or die.' (now is that liv or layv...) 8 --) Jessie ----- Original Message ----- From: Sharon_Gates@LONGBEACH.GOV To: HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG Sent: Wednesday, February 15, [...] 64578 94 12_Re: Fw:Tevya11_Judy Gelman16_gelman@EROLS.COM31_Wed, 15 Feb 2006 19:01:33 -0500665_ISO-8859-1 The Japanese love to adopt other cultures. A non-Christian friend told me that everyone he knew in Japan celebrated Christmas with birthday cakes "for Baby Jesus". Maybe licht benching and bar mitzvahs are next. Judy

Jessica Bonn wrote:

> > *Zero Mostel always did look a bit Japonese to me...* > *Better translate this than the Protocols...* > > > > > > **TEVIE LLEGÓ A JAPÓN** > > -----ENTRA A ESTE LINK > > http://www.toho.co.jp/stage/yane2005/asx/yane_r1_low.asx > > > > > > > > > > > > > > mail.afikim.org.il > > > ************************************************************************************ > This footnote confirms that [...] 64673 196 7_Re: 90%17_Sheldon and Heidi21_shelheid@ACTCOM.CO.IL31_Thu, 16 Feb 2006 10:53:29 +0200586_us-ascii Not part of the 90%



At 20:49 15/02/2006, you wrote:

>What about all the Palestinians in East Jerusalem? >Judy > >Sheldon and Heidi wrote: > >>Sharon, Pearl may have her own agenda, but let us look at this logically. >>Most people, even in the WB live in cities. The cities are under the >>control of the PA as is most of the surrounding land. Look at the map of >>the PA - aside from Jerusalem, where is there a major population center >>that is under Israeli authority? Notice that noone is speaking about >>Israeli Palestinians. Why is a knee jerk [...] 64870 220 7_Re: 90%11_Judy Gelman16_gelman@EROLS.COM31_Thu, 16 Feb 2006 06:45:41 -0500495_ISO-8859-1 What I understand is that not counting East Jerusalem and its suburbs (which is a lot of land), 90% of the WB LAND will be outside the security barrier/wall/fence. Source: NPR Morning Addition, 2/14/06. But East Jerusalem etc is not only a lot of land, it is densely populated too. If these people are excluded, that's a lot of people taken out of the denominator. Judy PS It is relatively easy to get 90% of something if you exclude whatever it is you need to exclude to do so! [...] 65091 48 9_apartment13_Steve Hancoff12_SHX2@AOL.COM29_Thu, 16 Feb 2006 10:07:17 EST483_US-ASCII Dear Folks,

We are looking to rent an apartment in Central Tel Aviv for April and May. Any help or information is most appreciated.

Steven Hancoff and Beth Troy

------------------------------------------------------------------------- The HABONET mailing list is hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org, a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 65140 105 7_Re: 90%17_Sheldon and Heidi21_shelheid@ACTCOM.CO.IL31_Thu, 16 Feb 2006 19:03:53 +0200515_us-ascii yes, of course it is an occupation, but why does it make your blood boil?

There have been two interim political agreements between the PA and Israel in which mutual water control has been agreed upon. Does Israel try to push the envelope? I assume so- I know that the Dead Sea dying is partly a political issue. Do the Palestinians? I know that they have sunk many many illegal wells in the central aquifiers and it is part of what is destoying the water table in this area of the Middle East. [...] 65246 138 13_Re: 90% water12_Jessica Bonn21_jessicab@BEZEQINT.NET31_Thu, 16 Feb 2006 20:38:13 +0200606_ISO-8859-1 Some water counter-information: I understand that Israel's main aquifer in the center of the country is in danger largely because, of raw sewage being piped into streams/riverbeds etc. from large population centers such as Nablus (I saw this on channel one news). I'll refrain from asking the rhetorical question of whose responsibility it was to make provisions for sewage treatment in the territories. Illegal wells - as I understand it, these are often as a result of the lack of water supply. Many West Bank Palestinian towns have rationed water that they get from a tank truck - I saw [...] 65385 114 7_Re: 90%0_23_rdsmith1957@COMCAST.NET31_Thu, 16 Feb 2006 19:09:26 +0000315_- I do love the way this argument goes: someone says that 90% of the Palestinians are self-governed and autonomous. When this figure is challenged along with the idea they are autonomous it turns out the number is a fiction and the autonomy is also a fiction but we are then asked, "why does this bother you?" [...] 65500 159 7_Re: 90%12_amnon hadary22_gershon-keileh@013.NET31_Thu, 16 Feb 2006 22:08:11 +0200554_windows-1255 ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2006 9:09 PM Subject: Re: 90%



>I do love the way this argument goes: someone says that 90% of the >Palestinians are self-governed and autonomous. When this figure is >challenged along with the idea they are autonomous it turns out the number >is a fiction and the autonomy is also a fiction but we are then asked, "why >does this bother you?" > > All we ask for is a semblance of intellectual honestly. > [...] 65660 18 7_Re: 90%0_23_rdsmith1957@COMCAST.NET31_Thu, 16 Feb 2006 20:11:23 +0000511_- No I don't, and stop calling me Shirley.

-------------- Original message ---------------------- From: amnon hadary

------------------------------------------------------------------------- The HABONET mailing list is hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org, a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/

To unsubscribe email: HABONET-unsubscribe-request@SHAMASH.ORG 65679 39 7_Re: 90%11_Noam Stopak21_nstopak@STARPOWER.NET31_Thu, 16 Feb 2006 15:46:42 -0500447_- On Thu, 16 Feb 2006 19:03:53 +0200, Sheldon and Heidi wrote:

>yes, of course it is an occupation, but why does it make your blood boil?

Why doesn't it make your blood boil? Do you think it is right to rule over another people? Do I understand why you don't want them to come freely into Israel? Yes. Do I understand why you believe they won't want to come and kill you if the occupation continues? No. [...] 65719 92 7_Re: 90%13_Yuval Warshai20_warshy@SBCGLOBAL.NET31_Thu, 16 Feb 2006 16:54:27 -0500325_iso-8859-1 Heidi wrote among other things:

> An aside for Sam- you said that the Arabs would come to understand that > Israel is here forever just > as the Native Americans understand now that the USA is not going anywhere. > Would your opinion change > if you were not so sure of Israel's permanance? > > -Heidi [...] 65812 31 20_Re: 90% - correction13_Yuval Warshai20_warshy@SBCGLOBAL.NET31_Thu, 16 Feb 2006 18:29:29 -0500353_iso-8859-1 Ooooooops! I committed a big gaffe in my English spelling:

I should have said "...the deceased, or the late Anwar Sadat," not 'diseased.'

Ooooooops again. ___ |Y| ^^^

> not going anywhere, we are a regional power that has to be reckoned with, > as > the diseased Anwar Sadat once did, and paid with his life for it. [...] 65844 84 20_Re: 90% - correction0_15_DebALev@AOL.COM29_Thu, 16 Feb 2006 22:10:42 EST432_US-ASCII



In a message dated 2/16/06 3:30:16 PM Pacific Standard Time, warshy@SBCGLOBAL.NET writes:

Ooooooops! I committed a big gaffe in my English spelling:

I should have said "...the deceased, or the late Anwar Sadat," not 'diseased.'







Yes.......but if had been "diseased"and you had said "deceased," some would call it a Freudian slip. Come to think of it........ [...] 65929 123 7_Re: 90%0_17_Smfgrappa@AOL.COM29_Fri, 17 Feb 2006 00:33:50 EST561_US-ASCII

I've heard that the US has 5% of the world's population and uses 20% of the worlds resources. neither of these statistics are worth the computer screen on which they're written if one doesn't cite their source.

Well this statistic is not quite right. Here is the one I know. The US is 5% of the world population and uses 25% of the world's oil. That statistic keeps getting repeated. But the estimates vary. Some estimates say we use 26% of the world's oil and some say 24%. And some say that's the way it should be. And believe or [...] 66053 252 42_Re: Tu B'shvat, Three B'shvat, Tree: Reply13_Pearl Skolnik25_pskolnik@NETVISION.NET.IL31_Thu, 16 Feb 2006 20:59:09 +0200515_iso-8859-1 Jessica: I saw the trees on the evening news: they were pruned, not cut down. Arik Asherman is about the last person on the face of this earth that I would ask about what I saw with my own eyes. (I was born and brought up on a farm and also lived and worked on a moshav for 9 years, so I do know something about trees.) I saw Arabs laughing, not sour faced at all, while the Jews were planting the saplings around the area where the pruned trees were rooted. Again, why is it so hard to understand: [...] 66306 180 10_great idea13_Pearl Skolnik25_pskolnik@NETVISION.NET.IL31_Fri, 17 Feb 2006 10:43:29 +0200602_windows-1255 for those who are so concerned about 'collective punishment', etc., I suggest that you volunteer to man the Charara checkpoint outside Shechem. How do you decide who is a terrorist? Do you just let them all go through indiscrimately or do you spot check? Do you take the chance that letting them all through quickly you are allowing a terrorist through? Do y ou not check the woman with a baby carriage or a "pregnant stomach"? Knowing that women have tied explosives around their waists or put explosives underneath and around their innocent babies in the carriage?? It has happened [...] 66487 163 8_response13_Pearl Skolnik25_pskolnik@NETVISION.NET.IL31_Fri, 17 Feb 2006 10:43:55 +0200587_iso-8859-1 talk and express opinions. It doesn't mean I can agree with them, that is all. I write as I do so that other opinions will also be heard on this list. I have not scared people off this list, but some of the correspondants on this list have caused a number of people to leave the list because of the way they were treated. I am not scared off so easily. Those who did leave were treated abominally. I don't believe in collective ideology. Those days are over. Even in Israel. pearl ----- Original Message ----- From: To: [...] 66651 114 13_Re: apartment13_Pearl Skolnik25_pskolnik@NETVISION.NET.IL31_Fri, 17 Feb 2006 10:44:34 +0200534_iso-8859-1 Steve, shalom, I saw your letter in Habonet. Since falling ill I no longer work as a Real Estate Broker, so I can only suggest that you contact Anglo Saxon REalty in Tel Aviv and ask them to assist you in finding the right apartment. Let them know your budget, how many rooms you need and the exact dates you need the apartment. If there are any limitations on the type of apt, floor, area, let them know that too. If you have friends/relatives in the Tel Aviv area they might be able to assist you in this. Also AACI [...] 66766 510 65_Re: Tu B'shvat, Three B'shvat, Tree - lets acknowledge complexity12_Jessica Bonn21_jessicab@BEZEQINT.NET31_Fri, 17 Feb 2006 11:11:14 +0200551_ISO-8859-1 Pearl, I'm not implying that Arik Asherman is an agricultural expert - please-! but I trust and respect him enough to know that he is aware of this issue (he told me so himself) and had the matter looked into by those who do understand. Let's stop arguing about a theoretical situation and get the facts. As I said, I'm happy to query Arik about that legwork he did (he's not stupid and not doing this for the Palestinians, but out of his understanding of Zionist obligation). And whether or not the trees you saw had been cut down or [...] 67277 301 14_Re: great idea12_Jessica Bonn21_jessicab@BEZEQINT.NET31_Fri, 17 Feb 2006 11:13:30 +0200554_windows-1255 Most of the climbers simply need to get to work. So much for freedom of movement. You can blame the Palestinians for digging themselves into this hole, but those 'Arabs climbing over the fence' like so many ants are usually just that: lekh el nemala, atzel, re'eh dracheha vchacham. The implication is not that you are 'atzel,' but what we can learn from the simple observation, from the pshat. Jessie ----- Original Message ----- From: Pearl Skolnik To: HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG Sent: Friday, February 17, 2006 10:43 AM Subject: great idea [...] 67579 68 5_trees12_Jessica Bonn21_jessicab@BEZEQINT.NET31_Fri, 17 Feb 2006 11:50:13 +0200551_windows-1255 Dear Pearl,

PS Olmert and Mofaz have both publicly condemned the chopping down of Palestinian trees by Jews. Are they Zionist enough? Or shall we also call their agricultural credentials into question...

Still trying, Jessie

------------------------------------------------------------------------- The HABONET mailing list is hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org, a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 67648 110 31_Re: 90% and back to the Indians0_17_Smfgrappa@AOL.COM29_Fri, 17 Feb 2006 10:15:15 EST367_US-ASCII In a message dated 02/16/2006 12:03:43 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, shelheid@ACTCOM.CO.IL writes:

An aside for Sam- you said that the Arabs would come to understand that Israel is here forever just as the Native Americans understand now that the USA is not going anywhere. Would your opinion change if you were not so sure of Israel's permanance? [...] 67759 80 41_Fw: a most unusual African Jewish website11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@SOCAL.RR.COM31_Fri, 17 Feb 2006 08:04:34 -0800194_iso-8859-1

Now this is a different twist.

Steve



http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/picture_gallery/05/africa_uganda0s_jewish_community/html/4.stm



67840 80 31_Re: 90% and back to the Indians11_Judy Gelman16_gelman@EROLS.COM31_Fri, 17 Feb 2006 11:27:58 -0500556_ISO-8859-1 All this stuff about Abramoff is true--but not exactly on point. Pearl is in no way responsible for what that sh*t Abramoff did. He screwed people all over the place.. He had a local day school where he didn't fully pay the teachers, a restaurant where he didn't fully pay the staff and he screwed some poor schnooks in Yesha who relied on him..I read that one of his justifications for his fees to the Native Americans was all his obligations in the Jewish community. It made me cringe to think that he is anyone's poster boy for Judaism. [...] 67921 222 12_Re: response11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@SOCAL.RR.COM31_Fri, 17 Feb 2006 08:35:29 -0800532_iso-8859-1 Sharon

Pearl has done nothing but express her opinions, which is what Habonet is for. She is going to make sense to some of us, and not make sense to others. I happen to agree with her on a lot of it, except when she gets defensive from being pounded upon. In the lengthy time we have been jousting on Habonet, she should have gone beyond being hurt that some of us are not built to understand her ideas or to agree with them if we do understand them. I hope I have not reduced her credibility by siding with [...] 68144 328 77_Fw: First they came for Israel, then they came for America,. by Dennis Prager11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@SOCAL.RR.COM31_Fri, 17 Feb 2006 08:50:37 -0800629_iso-8859-1

Well worth re-reading. I hope no one is put off by the fact that Prager is a solid supporter of Israel.

Steve









Europe are beginning to reassess .

First they came for Israel, then they came for America. By Dennis Prager

In 1945, the anti-Nazi German pastor Martin Niemoller wrote:

"First they came for the Communists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn't speak up, because I was a Protestant. Then they [...] 68473 510 12_Re: response0_26_Sharon_Gates@LONGBEACH.GOV31_Fri, 17 Feb 2006 09:16:02 -0800527_us-ascii Steve- Pearl has said, in so many words, you can't talk, you don't live here. That is not expressing an opinion, that is attempting to silence a voice she does not think has a right to speak. I do not deny that one's experience is highly colored by where one lives, but the right to have and express an opinion is not geographically dependent. You say Pearl has only attacked the attackers. I do not attack; I may argue vociferously, but I do not attack. She has responded by telling me, essentially, to shut up. [...] 68984 122 31_Re: 90% and back to the Indians0_17_Smfgrappa@AOL.COM29_Fri, 17 Feb 2006 12:16:08 EST583_US-ASCII In a message dated 02/17/2006 11:28:51 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, gelman@EROLS.COM writes:

All this stuff about Abramoff is true--but not exactly on point. Pearl is in no way responsible for what that sh*t Abramoff did. I don't remember blaming Pearl for Abramoff.





He screwed people all over the place.. He had a local day school where he didn't fully pay the teachers, a restaurant where he didn't fully pay the staff and he screwed some poor schnooks in Yesha who relied on him.. What a creative guy. He really loved to screw everyone. [...] 69107 28 12_Re: response0_23_rdsmith1957@COMCAST.NET31_Fri, 17 Feb 2006 20:16:09 +0000340_- First of all let me say I think anyone should be able to write anything they want to Habonet. I don't know anything about people leaving Habonet because of what people write to it but if they do that is their option. I don't know anything about people leaving because of what Pearl writes and again I wouldn't blame her if they did. [...] 69136 35 12_Re: response11_Noam Stopak21_nstopak@STARPOWER.NET31_Fri, 17 Feb 2006 15:34:34 -0500454_- On Fri, 17 Feb 2006 20:16:09 +0000, rdsmith1957@COMCAST.NET wrote:

... > >But then I came across this quote from everyone's favorite wingnut Steve, "Pearl >has only attacked the attackers, mostly in self-defense." This is blatantly >untrue.

Since we are challenging unsubstantited statistics left and right (so to speak) these days, I wonder if you can cite your source for the assertion that Steve is "everyone's favorite wingnut"? [...] 69172 47 12_Re: response0_23_rdsmith1957@COMCAST.NET31_Fri, 17 Feb 2006 21:01:06 +0000380_- I have no defence, I am caught, red handed in hyperbole and name calling. I apologize profusely. However I do like the direct form of name calling, like saying Steve is a wing nut to Steve's implied name calling like when he warned us (that is, those of us on Habonet) that we may not like a particular article he sent because the author is a "strong supporter of Israel." [...] 69220 78 12_Re: response11_Judy Gelman16_gelman@EROLS.COM31_Fri, 17 Feb 2006 16:15:38 -0500624_ISO-8859-1 What is a wingnut? No fair referring to Steve in the definition. Judy

rdsmith1957@COMCAST.NET wrote:

>I have no defence, I am caught, red handed in hyperbole and name calling. I apologize profusely. However I do like the direct form of name calling, like saying Steve is a wing nut to Steve's implied name calling like when he warned us (that is, those of us on Habonet) that we may not like a particular article he sent because the author is a "strong supporter of Israel." > > -------------- Original message ---------------------- >From: Noam Stopak > > >>On Fri, 17 [...] 69299 44 12_Re: response11_Noam Stopak21_nstopak@STARPOWER.NET31_Fri, 17 Feb 2006 16:26:31 -0500511_- On Fri, 17 Feb 2006 16:15:38 -0500, Judy Gelman wrote:

>What is a wingnut? No fair referring to Steve in the definition. >Judy

From Wikipedia:

The wingnuts (Pterocarya) are a genus of plants in the walnut family Juglandaceae, native to Asia. They are deciduous trees, 10-40m tall, with pinnate leaves 20-45cm long, with 11-25 leaflets; the shoots have chambered pith, a character shared with the walnuts (Juglans) but not the hickories (Carya) in the same family. [...] 69344 83 11_Re: wingnut11_Noam Stopak21_nstopak@STARPOWER.NET31_Fri, 17 Feb 2006 16:30:50 -0500345_- More from the urban slang site:

1. wing nut link send redefine 14 up, 2 down a Detroit Red Wings fan. This phrase was conied in 1997 when the Wings won the stanley cup and people started wearing red wings headgear resembling a wing nut. Look at that sad wing nut crying because there is no NHL games this year. by Vin Mar 14, 2005 [...] 69428 100 11_Re: wingnut8_Jon Baum19_jonbaum@SASA.ORG.IL31_Fri, 17 Feb 2006 23:50:06 +0200675_us-ascii In left-wing blogs, right wingers are referred to as "wingnuts." The parallel appellation in right-wing blogs is "moonbat."

Jon

-----Original Message----- From: Habonim Dror Alumni Virtual Machaneh [mailto:HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG] On Behalf Of Noam Stopak Sent: Friday, February 17, 2006 11:31 PM To: HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG Subject: Re: wingnut



More from the urban slang site:

1. wing nut link send redefine 14 up, 2 down a Detroit Red Wings fan. This phrase was conied in 1997 when the Wings won the stanley cup and people started wearing red wings headgear resembling a wing nut. Look at that sad wing nut crying because there is [...] 69529 23 11_Re: wingnut11_Judy Gelman16_gelman@EROLS.COM31_Fri, 17 Feb 2006 17:33:35 -0500400_ISO-8859-1 Thank you! Judy

> >

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To unsubscribe email: HABONET-unsubscribe-request@SHAMASH.ORG 69553 61 14_Re: great idea0_26_Sharon_Gates@LONGBEACH.GOV31_Fri, 17 Feb 2006 15:38:45 -0800334_us-ascii Pearl wrote: We are told that the fence is going to be built right below Ramot in Jerusalem, keeping Beit Iksa out of Israel. [text deleted here] The fence is not going to help that much -- only the other day two Arabs were caught climbing over the fence that was built a couple miles down the road from Ramot in Givon. [...] 69615 150 14_Re: great idea8_Jon Baum19_jonbaum@SASA.ORG.IL31_Sat, 18 Feb 2006 09:00:22 +0200653_us-ascii Sharon, the worth of the fence depends a lot on which side of it you are living on.

Jon

-----Original Message----- From: Habonim Dror Alumni Virtual Machaneh [mailto:HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG] On Behalf Of Sharon_Gates@LONGBEACH.GOV Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2006 1:39 AM To: HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG Subject: Re: great idea





Pearl wrote: We are told that the fence is going to be built right below Ramot in Jerusalem, keeping Beit Iksa out of Israel. [text deleted here] The fence is not going to help that much -- only the other day two Arabs were caught climbing over the fence that was built a couple miles [...] 69766 150 10_90 percent28_Michal and Efraim Perlmutter24_habesor@NETVISION.NET.IL31_Sat, 18 Feb 2006 16:05:11 +0200550_iso-8859-1 I've been following this "90 percent" discussion as well as those that led up to it and I would like to make a few comments.

1. The Israeli occupations of the Sinai, the Golan, the West Bank and Gaza were not illegal and remain not illegal according to international law. The term "illegal" when placed before the term "occupation" is simply a bit of Arab propaganda. It is quite legitimate to repeat Arab propaganda on this forum or any other. However the writer and readers should be aware of the nature of such terminology. [...] 69917 114 14_Re: 90 percent0_17_Smfgrappa@AOL.COM29_Sat, 18 Feb 2006 09:38:14 EST636_US-ASCII In a message dated 02/18/2006 9:05:41 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, habesor@NETVISION.NET.IL writes:

1. The Israeli occupations of the Sinai, the Golan, the West Bank and Gaza were not illegal and remain not illegal according to international law. The term "illegal" when placed before the term "occupation" is simply a bit of Arab propaganda. It is quite legitimate to repeat Arab propaganda on this forum or any other. However the writer and readers should be aware of the nature of such terminology. The term illegal is placed before the settlements and not before the occupation and it is used almost universally [...] 70032 72 33_On the passing of Bernie Weisberg0_14_kbob24@AOL.COM31_Sat, 18 Feb 2006 14:33:28 -0500443_us-ascii Folks:

Although Bernie was not a Habonim graduate, he married into a Habonim family and was involved most of his life with Labor Zionism, so I think this notice appropriate:

Ken --------

We regret to inform you that today we mourn the passing of celebrated Labor Zionist Bernie Weisberg, a longtime member of Ameinu LA's Executive Committee and former Executive Director of LZA National and LZA Los Angeles. [...] 70105 189 47_On ex-patriots and expatriates was : 90 percent12_amnon hadary22_gershon-keileh@013.NET31_Sat, 18 Feb 2006 22:15:02 +0200617_iso-8859-1

----- Original Message ----- From: "Michal and Efraim Perlmutter" To: Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2006 4:05 PM Frank, You know how much I admire what you continue to do here in Israel all these years and what you write. You know, both because I've told you in person and because of what I've written it on Habonet. But tonight I feel that a caveat is in order regarding what you wrote earlier this afternoon. You ticked off Yuval for > Now, Yuval, you are beginning to sound like the typical right wing > extremist. Throwing around terms like [...] 70295 23 51_Re: On ex-patriots and expatriates was : 90 percent11_Judy Gelman16_gelman@EROLS.COM31_Sat, 18 Feb 2006 16:31:09 -0500453_ISO-8859-1 Dear Amnon.

Where are you going and when will you get there?

Judy

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To unsubscribe email: HABONET-unsubscribe-request@SHAMASH.ORG 70319 119 19_Re: trees (jessica)13_Pearl Skolnik25_pskolnik@NETVISION.NET.IL31_Sat, 18 Feb 2006 19:41:32 +0200593_windows-1255 jessica, I condemn Jews cutting down trees -- I don't know what the problem is here. I officially announce that I am not for maliciously cutting down Arab farmers' trees. So? Olmert and Mofaz and ZuZu also condemn. We are talking here about a specific case in kfir salem where the whole nation saw Israelis making fools of themselves planting trees to replace trees that the Arabs claimed were destroyed, but in reality were professionally pruned by experienced farmers. I think there are a lot of farmers, Jews too, who would be happy to claim their trees were destroyed or [...] 70439 117 6_sharon13_Pearl Skolnik25_pskolnik@NETVISION.NET.IL31_Sat, 18 Feb 2006 20:10:36 +0200342_iso-8859-1 the price of our security and being able to live without fear, as much as is possible, is worth it. better someone should suffer and stay alive than that we should suffer and die. I hate the fence and what it does to the Land, too. But, I hate even more seeing Zaka picking up the body pieces after a terrorist attack. pearl. [...] 70557 384 38_jessica: - lets acknowledge complexity13_Pearl Skolnik25_pskolnik@NETVISION.NET.IL31_Sat, 18 Feb 2006 21:11:27 +0200588_iso-8859-1 jessica, I referred to a specific instance, which is what the postings were about. I know that there are problems, but I would think that one would also be aware that settlers live in villages in constant fear of attack, and are hardly likely to initiate attacks against Arabs which could lead to horrific results for those settlers living in the immediate area. There are cases where mistakes were made and Arabs came so close to settlement fences that the Jews were afraid of an eminent attack and took measures that afterwards may have been realized to be misguided or [...] 70942 119 19_Re: trees (jessica)13_Pearl Skolnik25_pskolnik@NETVISION.NET.IL31_Sat, 18 Feb 2006 19:41:32 +0200593_windows-1255 jessica, I condemn Jews cutting down trees -- I don't know what the problem is here. I officially announce that I am not for maliciously cutting down Arab farmers' trees. So? Olmert and Mofaz and ZuZu also condemn. We are talking here about a specific case in kfir salem where the whole nation saw Israelis making fools of themselves planting trees to replace trees that the Arabs claimed were destroyed, but in reality were professionally pruned by experienced farmers. I think there are a lot of farmers, Jews too, who would be happy to claim their trees were destroyed or [...] 71062 117 6_sharon13_Pearl Skolnik25_pskolnik@NETVISION.NET.IL31_Sat, 18 Feb 2006 20:10:36 +0200342_iso-8859-1 the price of our security and being able to live without fear, as much as is possible, is worth it. better someone should suffer and stay alive than that we should suffer and die. I hate the fence and what it does to the Land, too. But, I hate even more seeing Zaka picking up the body pieces after a terrorist attack. pearl. [...] 71180 384 38_jessica: - lets acknowledge complexity13_Pearl Skolnik25_pskolnik@NETVISION.NET.IL31_Sat, 18 Feb 2006 21:11:27 +0200588_iso-8859-1 jessica, I referred to a specific instance, which is what the postings were about. I know that there are problems, but I would think that one would also be aware that settlers live in villages in constant fear of attack, and are hardly likely to initiate attacks against Arabs which could lead to horrific results for those settlers living in the immediate area. There are cases where mistakes were made and Arabs came so close to settlement fences that the Jews were afraid of an eminent attack and took measures that afterwards may have been realized to be misguided or [...] 71565 303 24_Re: great idea (Jessica)13_Pearl Skolnik25_pskolnik@NETVISION.NET.IL31_Sat, 18 Feb 2006 22:31:10 +0200535_windows-1255 JESSICA, in the middle of the night it is usually a thief or terrorist climbing over the fence. The two arabs turned out this time to be thieves. it was in the middle of the night. If they want to work there are ways to come to Israel legally and get work. I wouldn't want to take a chance allowing them to come over the fence in a wholesale way, would you? Of course, most probably are looking for work, but the situation is what it is because of the Intifada. Just because most would probably not turn to terrorist [...] 71869 480 22_Re: response to sharon13_Pearl Skolnik25_pskolnik@NETVISION.NET.IL31_Sat, 18 Feb 2006 22:34:49 +0200550_iso-8859-1 I do not tell you not to write: people will make their decisions by themselves as to the worthiness of each person's postings. I am saying only that not living here and experiencing the day by day Israel means that what people abroad see and hear is only a partial truth. This has to be taken into consideration in evaluating the postings. I am also saying that you can not dismiss as Rightist rantings what I or others write, but must be aware that there are other ways to see reality, and not just through the prism of glasses that [...] 72350 450 24_Re: great idea (Jessica)12_Jessica Bonn21_jessicab@BEZEQINT.NET31_Sun, 19 Feb 2006 11:20:12 +0200580_windows-1255 We are in agreement here - just making a point about the general situation. ----- Original Message ----- From: Pearl Skolnik To: HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2006 10:31 PM Subject: Re: great idea (Jessica)



JESSICA, in the middle of the night it is usually a thief or terrorist climbing over the fence. The two arabs turned out this time to be thieves. it was in the middle of the night. If they want to work there are ways to come to Israel legally and get work. I wouldn't want to take a chance allowing them to come over the [...] 72801 72 57_Re: Beilin's piece on the next political move after Hamas12_David Mandel20_dlmandel@PACBELL.NET31_Sun, 19 Feb 2006 01:31:57 -0800573_iso-8859-1 > > --- Noam Stopak wrote: >> >> >> Another element of occupation that neither Yuval nor >> Amnon nor Sharon has addressed is the question of >> other occupations, e.g. US occupation of Native >> American lands, or for that matter Islamic >> occupation of various lands conquered in the years >> following the foundation of that religion. What >> gave the Brits and the French the right to divide >> the middle east in the Sykes-Picot treaty? What >> gave the Ottomans the right to the land prior to >> that? At what point do we say [...] 72874 67 11_All Shot Up8_Jon Baum19_jonbaum@SASA.ORG.IL31_Sun, 19 Feb 2006 13:08:02 +0200475_us-ascii Turn on your speakers:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/paul-hipp/cheneys-victim-sings_b_15948.html

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To unsubscribe email: HABONET-unsubscribe-request@SHAMASH.ORG 72942 95 15_Re: All Shot Up0_23_rdsmith1957@COMCAST.NET31_Sun, 19 Feb 2006 11:22:10 +0000735_- In the words of Roy Blount Jr., I refuse to make jokes about Chainey shooting his friend because it's too easy. It's like shooting a 78 year old lawyer.



-------------- Original message ---------------------- From: Jon Baum > Turn on your speakers: > > http://www.huffingtonpost.com/paul-hipp/cheneys-victim-sings_b_15948.html > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > The HABONET mailing list is hosted by > Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org, > a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and > an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ > > To unsubscribe email: HABONET-unsubscribe-request@SHAMASH.ORG [...] 73038 58 15_Re: All Shot Up12_amnon hadary22_gershon-keileh@013.NET31_Sun, 19 Feb 2006 16:02:33 +0200752_windows-1255 I resemble that remark but I never studied law only some talmud and I'm a bit shy of 78 Amnon ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2006 1:22 PM Subject: Re: All Shot Up



> In the words of Roy Blount Jr., I refuse to make jokes about Chainey > shooting his friend because it's too easy. It's like shooting a 78 year > old lawyer. > > > -------------- Original message ---------------------- > From: Jon Baum >> Turn on your speakers: >> >> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/paul-hipp/cheneys-victim-sings_b_15948.html >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> The HABONET mailing list [...] 73097 47 14_for Dan Kanter14_Holtzer Family20_carmdave@URIM.ORG.IL31_Sun, 19 Feb 2006 17:58:09 +0200477_windows-1255 Your email address seems to have changed... I sent you an email twice and both were returned.... Dave

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To unsubscribe email: HABONET-unsubscribe-request@SHAMASH.ORG 73145 76 25_fence and settlement maps11_Noam Stopak21_nstopak@STARPOWER.NET31_Sun, 19 Feb 2006 11:54:58 -0500376_iso-8859-1

Hello,

I'm trying to have a dialog with some students who are in town for the PSM conference at Georgetown and need some information.

I've been poking around the ministry of defense and ministry of foreign affairs web sites and can't find good maps of settlements and the fence route. Who has pointers to good sites for this information? [...] 73222 66 29_Re: fence and settlement maps8_Jon Baum19_jonbaum@SASA.ORG.IL31_Sun, 19 Feb 2006 19:18:32 +0200996_us-ascii Hi Noam. Try these. Jon

http://www.seamzone.mod.gov.il/Pages/ENG/map_eng.htm

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/fencemap.html

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/israel/fence-imagery.htm

http://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/publish/article_15.shtml

www.passia.org/palestine_facts/MAPS/newpdf/Seperation-Fence-July2003.pdf

http://www.fmep.org/maps/map_data/settlements/occupied_territories2002.html

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/israel.html#settlements.html

http://www.stopthewall.org/maps/860.shtml



-----Original Message----- From: Habonim Dror Alumni Virtual Machaneh [mailto:HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG] On Behalf Of Noam Stopak Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2006 6:55 PM To: HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG Subject: fence and settlement maps





Hello,

I'm trying to have a dialog with some students who are in town for the PSM conference at Georgetown and need some information. [...] 73289 38 35_maps of settlements and fence route11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@MJDS.ORG31_Sun, 19 Feb 2006 14:06:30 -0600948_us-ascii maps of settlements and the fence route

www.passia.org/palestine_facts/ MAPS/newpdf/Seperation-Fence-July2003.pdf -

http://www.vtjp.org/background/Separation_Wall_Report.htm

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/israel/fence-imagery.htm

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/israel/fence-maps.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_West_Bank_barrier









________________________________________________________________ Sent via the WebMail system at mjds.org









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To unsubscribe email: HABONET-unsubscribe-request@SHAMASH.ORG 73328 29 20_separation fence map11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@MJDS.ORG31_Sun, 19 Feb 2006 14:10:26 -0600629_us-ascii One more map

http://www.4blacksheep.com/photos/separation_wall/pages/fence_map.htm







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To unsubscribe email: HABONET-unsubscribe-request@SHAMASH.ORG 73358 40 21_Re: Other occupations12_David Fleiss20_dfleiss@PIPELINE.COM31_Sun, 19 Feb 2006 21:26:23 -0500335_ISO-8859-1 Noam wrote:

> Another element of occupation that neither Yuval nor > Amnon nor Sharon has addressed is the question of > other occupations, e.g. US occupation of Native > American lands, or for that matter Islamic > occupation of various lands conquered in the years > following the foundation of that religion. [...] 73399 401 24_Re: great idea (Jessica)13_Pearl Skolnik25_pskolnik@NETVISION.NET.IL31_Sun, 19 Feb 2006 20:24:55 +0200318_windows-1255 sorry, I am so super-sensitive these days, I see enemies where they don't exist! glad we are on the same side of the fence, so to speak. b'vracha, pearl ----- Original Message ----- From: Jessica Bonn To: HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2006 11:20 AM Subject: Re: great idea (Jessica) [...] 73801 76 36_Re: Other occupations, other 'eretz'12_Jessica Bonn21_jessicab@BEZEQINT.NET31_Mon, 20 Feb 2006 10:09:56 +0200580_ISO-8859-1 Someone recently mentioned Israel's choice to ally with colonialist powers (somehow for years - before the early 70s mainly - we enjoyed the status of underdog and protectorate at the same time - only the Jews can do it)... there's an article in one of the last issues of Eretz Acheret that discusses the natural and unexploited alliances between Israel and the third world (there of course have been many... but there's much to think about). Do any of the Israelis out there read this publication and what do you think about it? Or any Americans for that matter? [...] 73878 611 24_Re: great idea (Jessica)12_Jessica Bonn21_jessicab@BEZEQINT.NET31_Mon, 20 Feb 2006 10:15:52 +0200579_windows-1255 Pearl, it seems that you have enough on your plate such that counting or experiencing me as an enemy is 'just what you need' or, in Hebrew 'mah shechaser lach.' Kol yisrael arevim... umike'amcha yisrael (I suppose that cuts both ways). However, I do disagree with the simply stated idea that 'there are ways to come to Israel legally and get work.' Tens of thousands who deserve and desparately need to work are denied permits for all kinds of reasons. This is one of the many tragedies of the situatuion, the extent of which it is difficult to appreciate from [...] 74490 1596 21_The New Anti-Semitism8_Jon Baum19_jonbaum@SASA.ORG.IL31_Mon, 20 Feb 2006 10:45:15 +0200602_ISO-8859-1 Bernard Lewis: the perfect antidote to Juan Cole. Enjoy, if that's the right word. Jon

The New Anti-Semitism Bernard Lewis

The American Scholar - Volume 75 No. 1 Winter 2006 pp. 25-36

There is a well-worn platitude that we have all heard many times before: it is perfectly legitimate to criticize the actions and policies of the state of Israel or the doctrines of Zionism without necessarily being motivated by anti-Semitism. The fact that this has been repeated ad nauseam does not detract from its truth. Not only do I accept it, but I would even take it a step [...] 76087 549 24_Re: great idea (Jessica)13_Pearl Skolnik25_pskolnik@NETVISION.NET.IL31_Mon, 20 Feb 2006 16:18:39 +0200574_windows-1255 jessica, I am in agreement with you. The problem though was brought on by the Intifada, not because we don't want the workers here. There were tens of thousands of Arab workers who made their way to Israel daily, whose parnasa was destroyed by the Intifada and the necessity of keeping them out of Israel. There were a number of Arab workers in Israel who also murdered the people who hired them. Some admitted that they had nothing against the people they murdered but that they or their families were threatened by the terrorists that if they did not do [...] 76637 794 12_Re: response11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@SOCAL.RR.COM31_Mon, 20 Feb 2006 08:46:43 -0800565_iso-8859-1 Sharon

Thank you for helping to clarify the issue at hand. My contention was that Pearl has NEVER said "You can't talk" or as you also aver, "Shut up". You yourself admit the necessary qualifiers of "in so many words" and "essentially". In other words, this is the way you interpreted, or wished to interpret, what she was saying. It is your right to do that. You may interpret anything you want, any way you want. We all do that, in basic self-defence, after learning at very young ages that people often mean not what they say. That is why [...] 77432 18 30_Why Can't Muslims Take a Joke?16_Elihu D. Davison25_elihu.davison@VERIZON.NET31_Mon, 20 Feb 2006 21:22:33 -0500426_us-ascii http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/HB07Ak02.html

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To unsubscribe email: HABONET-unsubscribe-request@SHAMASH.ORG 77451 65 57_Re: Beilin's piece on the next political move after Hamas11_Noam Stopak21_nstopak@STARPOWER.NET31_Mon, 20 Feb 2006 22:13:18 -0500662_iso-8859-1 ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Mandel" To: Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2006 4:31 AM Subject: Re: Beilin's piece on the next political move after Hamas



> > >> --- Noam Stopak wrote: >>> >> >>> Another element of occupation that neither Yuval nor >>> Amnon nor Sharon has addressed is the question of >>> other occupations, e.g. US occupation of Native >>> American lands, or for that matter Islamic >>> occupation of various lands conquered in the years >>> following the foundation of that religion. What >>> gave the Brits and the French the right to [...] 77517 39 57_Re: Beilin's piece on the next political move after Hamas12_David Fleiss20_dfleiss@PIPELINE.COM31_Mon, 20 Feb 2006 22:40:29 -0500281_ISO-8859-1 Noam wrote: > Also the question of when, in a world > where there has been conquest and migration since before homo sapiens > (or since we left the garden, if you prefer), a population becomes > indiginous or native or has a "right" to a particular parcel of land. [...] 77557 56 57_Re: Beilin's piece on the next political move after Hamas11_Noam Stopak21_nstopak@STARPOWER.NET31_Mon, 20 Feb 2006 22:47:36 -0500424_iso-8859-1 Hadn't heard that the UN suddenly validated all existing borders. Guess nobody told Tibet (or at perhaps I should say China).

My understanding is that expanding territory through conquest is not what occurred according to the way these things are scored. The act of war which precipitated the 1967 was the blockade of the straits of Tiran by Egypt. I'm sure I'll be corrected if this is not accurate. [...] 77614 89 57_Re: Beilin's piece on the next political move after Hamas13_Pearl Skolnik25_pskolnik@NETVISION.NET.IL31_Tue, 21 Feb 2006 07:43:30 +0200592_iso-8859-1 you still do not take into consideration the difference: ours was a war of defence (I have written before how the Jordanians, e.g., attacked us for some 4 hours in Jerusalem and other areas before Israel went in and counter-attacked) and Egypt's act of forcing the UN forces out of the Sinai, amongst other acts, was considered a causus belli. We were so sure of a massacre that even before the war thousands of graves were dug in Israel, so we would be ready. The others were occupations after an offensive war. International law DOES recognize the difference. Actually, who [...] 77704 118 57_Re: Beilin's piece on the next political move after Hamas8_Jon Baum19_jonbaum@SASA.ORG.IL31_Tue, 21 Feb 2006 10:37:12 +0200389_us-ascii Pearl, where did you read that Palestine had a Jewish majority in the 19th - early 20th centuries?

Jon

-----Original Message----- From: Habonim Dror Alumni Virtual Machaneh [mailto:HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG] On Behalf Of Pearl Skolnik Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2006 7:44 AM To: HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG Subject: Re: Beilin's piece on the next political move after Hamas [...] 77823 110 57_Re: Beilin's piece on the next political move after Hamas0_17_Smfgrappa@AOL.COM29_Tue, 21 Feb 2006 07:16:44 EST652_US-ASCII a message dated 02/21/2006 12:46:36 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, pskolnik@NETVISION.NET.IL writes: The others were occupations after an offensive war. International law DOES recognize the difference. I don't think there is any such provision in international law.



Actually, who is occupying who? The entire 19th century and early part of the 20th century, according to what I have read, we were the majority population here, and many of the Arabs living in Palestine made their way here after the large Jewish migration back to Israel in order to get work and take advantage of the development of the Jewish settlements and [...] 77934 54 8_Borders?16_Elihu D. Davison25_elihu.davison@VERIZON.NET31_Tue, 21 Feb 2006 10:22:48 -0500564_ISO-8859-1 In Habonet 2006-50, David Fleiss writes that

> Based on what I've read, the Geneva conventions associated with the > establishment of the United Nations somehow fixed the borders of the > world's nations. Under the Geneva conventions, no nations are supposed > to expand their territory through military conquest. > > That explains why Israel's occupation of the West Bank and Gaza, and > China's occupation of Tibet -- like Indonesia's former occupation of > East Timor and Iraq's temporary occupation of Kuwait -- are very bad > things... [...] 77989 40 51_Re: On ex-patriots and expatriates was : 90 percent12_amnon hadary22_gershon-keileh@013.NET31_Tue, 21 Feb 2006 17:56:04 +0200745_iso-8859-1 Judy, I'll be going to southern California arriving at the end of February ----- Original Message ----- From: "Judy Gelman" To: Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2006 11:31 PM Subject: Re: On ex-patriots and expatriates was : 90 percent



> Dear Amnon. > > Where are you going and when will you get there? > > Judy > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > The HABONET mailing list is hosted by > Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org, > a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and > an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ > > To unsubscribe email: HABONET-unsubscribe-request@SHAMASH.ORG [...] 78030 719 35_Fw: Jews in the Bush Administration11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@SOCAL.RR.COM31_Tue, 21 Feb 2006 09:12:11 -0800638_iso-8859-1 Of interest.

Steve





Jews in the Bush Administration

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ari Fleischer (2001-2003) White House Press Secretary

Josh Bolten Deputy Chief of Staff

Ken Melman White House Political Director

David Frum (2001-2002) Speechwriter

Brad Blakeman White House Director of Scheduling

Dov Zakheim (2001-2004) Undersecretary of Defense (Controller)

Paul Wolfowitz (2001-2005) Deputy Secretary of Defense

I. Lewis Libby (2001-2005) Chief of Staff to the Vice President [...] 78750 439 29_Fw: When Fears Cows the Media11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@SOCAL.RR.COM31_Tue, 21 Feb 2006 09:29:50 -0800417_iso-8859-1 Great article.

My guess is that there would be NO immediate violent reaction in this country by the Muslim community. I think there would be protests for a certainty, the same as when any other material appears in the media, offending the sensitivities of any one group. Buying, selling (and publicly advertising) swastikas in America is highly offensive to some people, but it is not illegal. [...] 79190 24 35_Re: Jews in the Bush Administration12_David Fleiss20_dfleiss@PIPELINE.COM31_Tue, 21 Feb 2006 19:30:03 -0500452_ISO-8859-1 Did you know that Bush II is the first president without a Jew in his cabinet since Herbert Hoover?

You could look it up.

David

------------------------------------------------------------------------- The HABONET mailing list is hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org, a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 79215 34 35_Re: Jews in the Bush Administration0_18_normk@ADELPHIA.NET31_Tue, 21 Feb 2006 19:42:28 -0500505_utf-8 Thank God ---- David Fleiss wrote: Did you know that Bush II is the first president without a Jew in his cabinet since Herbert Hoover?

You could look it up.

David

------------------------------------------------------------------------- The HABONET mailing list is hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org, a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 79250 45 35_Re: Jews in the Bush Administration10_Noam Laden14_Noamla@AOL.COM29_Tue, 21 Feb 2006 20:33:20 EST390_US-ASCII Chertoff is Jewish

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To unsubscribe email: HABONET-unsubscribe-request@SHAMASH.ORG 79296 94 35_Re: Jews in the Bush Administration11_Noam Stopak21_nstopak@STARPOWER.NET31_Tue, 21 Feb 2006 21:13:13 -0500757_iso-8859-1 Lucky us...

And Josh Bolten is now director of OMB which the whitehouse.gov lists as a "Cabinet Rank Members" see http://www.whitehouse.gov/government/cabinet.html ----- Original Message ----- From: Noam Laden To: HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2006 8:33 PM Subject: Re: Jews in the Bush Administration



Chertoff is Jewish

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------------------------------------------------- The HABONET mailing list is hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org, a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 79391 43 35_Re: Jews in the Bush Administration0_18_normk@ADELPHIA.NET31_Tue, 21 Feb 2006 21:41:23 -0500595_utf-8 Considering that the Department of Homeland Security (and FEMA) is a joke and that the "budget" for this administration is a disaster I wouldn't recommend advertising that they are headed by Jews.

Norm ---- Noam Stopak wrote: Lucky us...

And Josh Bolten is now director of OMB which the whitehouse.gov lists as a "Cabinet Rank Members" see http://www.whitehouse.gov/government/cabinet.html ----- Original Message ----- From: Noam Laden To: HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2006 8:33 PM Subject: Re: Jews in the Bush Administration [...] 79435 54 35_Re: Jews in the Bush Administration0_23_rdsmith1957@COMCAST.NET31_Wed, 22 Feb 2006 03:45:20 +0000674_- And dont forget Scooter.

-------------- Original message ---------------------- From: normk@ADELPHIA.NET > Considering that the Department of Homeland Security (and FEMA) is a joke and > that the "budget" for this administration is a disaster I wouldn't recommend > advertising that they are headed by Jews. > > Norm > ---- Noam Stopak wrote: > Lucky us... > > And Josh Bolten is now director of OMB which the whitehouse.gov lists as a > "Cabinet Rank Members" see http://www.whitehouse.gov/government/cabinet.html > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Noam Laden > To: HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG > Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2006 8:33 PM > [...] 79490 100 35_Re: Jews in the Bush Administration12_Esther Cohen23_cohensteacy@VERIZON.NET31_Wed, 22 Feb 2006 07:17:52 -0500499_iso-8859-1 OK, so I have to ask the question that we've always asked: Who is a Jew? Is this list based on the HR questionnaire they filled out, or their attendance at synagogue, their names, or what?

Thanks.

Esther Cohen Washington, DC (native, not government) Mosh 70-75+ MB 76 Workshop (GH 77-78)

----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2006 10:45 PM Subject: Re: Jews in the Bush Administration [...] 79591 115 35_Re: Jews in the Bush Administration0_17_smfgrappa@AOL.COM31_Wed, 22 Feb 2006 10:43:47 -0500502_us-ascii



-----Original Message----- From: David Fleiss To: HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG Sent: Tue, 21 Feb 2006 19:30:03 -0500 Subject: Re: Jews in the Bush Administration



Did you know that Bush II is the first president without a Jew in his cabinet since Herbert Hoover?

You could look it up.

David

This just in



President Bush calls in the Head of the CIA and asks: "How come the Jews know everything before we do?" [...] 79707 109 12_Re: Borders?0_17_smfgrappa@AOL.COM31_Wed, 22 Feb 2006 15:13:42 -0500713_us-ascii



-----Original Message----- From: Elihu D. Davison To: HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG Sent: Tue, 21 Feb 2006 10:22:48 -0500 Subject: Borders?



In Habonet 2006-50, David Fleiss writes that

> Based on what I've read, the Geneva conventions associated with the > establishment of the United Nations somehow fixed the borders of the > world's nations. Under the Geneva conventions, no nations are supposed > to expand their territory through military conquest. > > That explains why Israel's occupation of the West Bank and Gaza, and > China's occupation of Tibet -- like Indonesia's former occupation of > East Timor and Iraq's temporary occupation [...] 79817 131 12_Re: Borders?12_Sue Liberman20_fiddlebach@YAHOO.COM31_Wed, 22 Feb 2006 12:44:11 -0800461_iso-8859-1 Just something I thought might be of interest- sue

GOD HAS SPOKEN

An open letter to the Palestinian Prime Minister designate Ismail Haniya

Alon Ben-Meir—February 21, 2006

I am addressing this letter to you because you are known to be a pragmatic man and also a believer. Use your pragmatism and belief in God to alter the destiny of your people and walk them to the “promised land” because they have suffered enough. [...] 79949 223 14_Re: 90 percent13_Yuval Warshai20_warshy@SBCGLOBAL.NET31_Wed, 22 Feb 2006 15:49:10 -0500586_iso-8859-1 Efraim Perlmutter challenged me directly on many of my views some 4 days ago, under the thread above. I think the points he touches comprise indeed a good list of very dirty Zionist "laundry" that ought to be discussed and clarified. The points I had raised, and which elicited his challenging reply, are indeed, in my view, long overdue for some in-depth discussion and clarification, and I can see no better place to wash some dirty Zionist laundry than this list. The only problem is that such a clarification demands hard work and thinking, and a lot of writing and [...] 80173 21 11_new address12_Sharon Gates21_sbgates@EARTHLINK.NET31_Wed, 22 Feb 2006 13:41:38 -0800408_us-ascii Dear Habonetters- Please note my changed e-mail address. Those of you who have set your e-mail programs to automatically delete my messages should update your settings. Because somebody out there will probably wonder, I'll say that I am still with the City of Long Beach, but I'm changing the e-mail where I get Habonet. I just couldn't stand those long weekends away from all of you folks ;-) [...] 80195 22 35_Re: Jews in the Bush Administration12_David Fleiss20_dfleiss@PIPELINE.COM31_Wed, 22 Feb 2006 17:09:05 -0500468_us-ascii >Chertoff is Jewish

Oops. I guess I'm still stuck in George II's first term.

David

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To unsubscribe email: HABONET-unsubscribe-request@SHAMASH.ORG 80218 64 5_Video8_Jon Baum19_jonbaum@SASA.ORG.IL31_Thu, 23 Feb 2006 11:55:21 +0200480_us-ascii Apropos of absolutely nothing, this is a great clip:

http://www.buzznet.com/video/featured/play/2860/

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To unsubscribe email: HABONET-unsubscribe-request@SHAMASH.ORG 80283 32 13_For LA chevre12_Sue Liberman20_fiddlebach@YAHOO.COM31_Thu, 23 Feb 2006 07:42:07 -0800506_iso-8859-1 I tried sending a poster regarding a great evening at the IMPROV on Melrose- but the email was "rejected"- (too big)- Sunday eve, March 12, there is an "event" benefitting my son, Avi's project where he brings comics to Israel in the summer....It is a great evening ( begins at 7:30 PM with top comics like Elon Gold and Wayne Federman, and Phil Blazer will have his stand-up "debut"- anyone interested in going please email me privately...It promises to be a great and "fun" evening...sue [...] 80316 59 16_right to privacy12_Jessica Bonn21_jessicab@BEZEQINT.NET31_Thu, 23 Feb 2006 21:09:33 +0200456_ISO-8859-1

Word has it (unconfirmed) that this was produced by (or for) the ACLU http://www.aclu.org/pizza/images/screen.swf



Jessie

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80376 112 9_Re: Video12_Jessica Bonn21_jessicab@BEZEQINT.NET31_Thu, 23 Feb 2006 21:05:01 +0200579_ISO-8859-1 VideoJon - I'm not getting it. What's appealing about it?

Jessie ----- Original Message ----- From: Jon Baum To: Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 11:55 AM Subject: Video



Apropos of absolutely nothing, this is a great clip:

http://www.buzznet.com/video/featured/play/2860/



------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The HABONET mailing list is hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network, a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies. [...] 80489 176 9_Re: Video8_Jon Baum19_jonbaum@SASA.ORG.IL31_Thu, 23 Feb 2006 21:24:56 +0200417_us-ascii Never mind. Either you like this sort of thing or you don't. I guess I just enjoy guys jumping from roofs.

Jon

-----Original Message----- From: Habonim Dror Alumni Virtual Machaneh [mailto:HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG] On Behalf Of Jessica Bonn Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 9:05 PM To: HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG Subject: Re: Video



Jon - I'm not getting it. What's appealing about it? [...] 80666 22 17_listserv password11_Judy Gelman16_gelman@EROLS.COM31_Thu, 23 Feb 2006 15:09:57 -0500468_ISO-8859-1 Is there a way I can get my Habonet password to look at the archives? My computer crashed a while back and I lost all that kind of stuff.

Thanks- Judy

------------------------------------------------------------------------- The HABONET mailing list is hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org, a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 80689 18 15_Today's Cartoon12_David Fleiss20_dfleiss@PIPELINE.COM31_Thu, 23 Feb 2006 18:46:24 -0500436_ISO-8859-1 http://webpages.charter.net/wildcatbill2/Today's%20Cartoon.gif

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To unsubscribe email: HABONET-unsubscribe-request@SHAMASH.ORG 80708 34 19_Re: Today's Cartoon11_Judy Gelman16_gelman@EROLS.COM31_Thu, 23 Feb 2006 19:13:23 -0500555_ISO-8859-1 I hope the guy in the cargo container isn't supposed to Mohammed! Judy

David Fleiss wrote:

> http://webpages.charter.net/wildcatbill2/Today's%20Cartoon.gif > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > The HABONET mailing list is hosted by > Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org, > a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and > an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ > > To unsubscribe email: HABONET-unsubscribe-request@SHAMASH.ORG > > [...] 80743 50 21_Re: listserv password11_Noam Stopak21_nstopak@STARPOWER.NET31_Thu, 23 Feb 2006 19:39:57 -0500494_iso-8859-1 Judy (and anyone else who may find themselves in a similar situation),

On the login screen there is a link to "get a new LISTSERV" password. It takes you here:

http://listserv.shamash.org/cgi-bin/wa?GETPW1=A1%3Dind0602%26L%3Dhabonet

Let me know if that doesn't do the trick.

Noam

----- Original Message ----- From: "Judy Gelman" To: Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 3:09 PM Subject: listserv password [...] 80794 68 21_Re: listserv password13_Yuval Warshai20_warshy@SBCGLOBAL.NET31_Thu, 23 Feb 2006 20:01:19 -0500606_iso-8859-1 Noam is right. That should do the trick.

In general you can just go to

http://listserv.shamash.org/archives/habonet.html

This is where the server keeps the Habonet archives. In order to look at the archives a person that is subscribed to the list needs a password (only list subscribers can look/search the archives anyhow). To login and look at the archives you'll need the email address from which you are subscribed to the list and a password. The first time you try to login, or if you had a password in the past and have forgotten it in the meantime, it gives you [...] 80863 89 21_Re: listserv password11_Judy Gelman16_gelman@EROLS.COM31_Thu, 23 Feb 2006 20:54:46 -0500571_ISO-8859-1 Thank you, Yuval and Noam. It worked. Judy

Yuval Warshai wrote:

> Noam is right. That should do the trick. > > In general you can just go to > > http://listserv.shamash.org/archives/habonet.html > > This is where the server keeps the Habonet archives. In order to look > at the > archives a person that is subscribed to the list needs a password > (only list > subscribers can look/search the archives anyhow). To login and look at > the > archives you'll need the email address from which you are subscribed > to the > list and a password. [...] 80953 59 10_90 percent28_Michal and Efraim Perlmutter24_habesor@NETVISION.NET.IL31_Fri, 24 Feb 2006 06:58:02 +0200545_iso-8859-1 First, my apologies to all concerned for not answering sooner. I waited for my original letter to appear on the digest and was about ready to send it for the second time when I read Yuval’s reply. It was only then that I realized that my letter had not been devoured by hyperspace goblins on the way to Habonet but that a whole day’s worth of letters had not reached my computer. I made use of the Shamash.0rg web site to retrieve the day’s sendings and discovered my letter and two responses, which I will begin to address now. [...] 81013 71 26_Reply to Amnon; 90 percent28_Michal and Efraim Perlmutter24_habesor@NETVISION.NET.IL31_Fri, 24 Feb 2006 07:42:31 +0200381_iso-8859-1 From: amnon hadary

". . . tonight I feel that a caveat is in order regarding what you wrote earlier this afternoon. You ticked off Yuval . . ."

I suppose this may have been one of those times when I should have counted to twenty rather than just to ten before answering. My answer to Yuval was something of a tick for a tack. [...] 81085 126 20_Re: right to privacy14_Holtzer Family20_carmdave@URIM.ORG.IL31_Fri, 24 Feb 2006 08:16:04 +0200645_ISO-8859-1 Didn't notice if anyone else responded to your "question" about whether or not this was actually produced by the ACLU. According to the ACLU website, in an article from August, 2004, (http://www.aclu.org/privacy/spying/15740prs20040809.html) they wrote: "As part of the public awareness component of its Surveillance Campaign, the ACLU recently released an online video to dramatize how new technologies and weak privacy laws may over time be used to strip us of our privacy. In the video, a pizza parlor uses its access to a wide variety of sensitive information to guide its treatment of a customer calling to order dinner. To [...] 81212 48 17_an important URL.13_Moshe Sheskin23_moshe.sheskin@GMAIL.COM31_Fri, 24 Feb 2006 11:28:48 +0200515_ISO-8859-1 This is really in the public interest. It can heppen anywhere. But take a look at this URL and decide for yourself. Sound on please.

Moshe Sheskin

http://www.aclu.org/pizza/images/screen.swf

------------------------------------------------------------------------- The HABONET mailing list is hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org, a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 81261 261 3_90%0_17_Smfgrappa@AOL.COM29_Fri, 24 Feb 2006 09:20:51 EST504_UTF-8

In a message dated 02/23/2006 11:58:39 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, habesor@NETVISION.NET.IL writes:

The term illegal is often used before the terms Israeli occupation. As I stated before there was and is nothing illegal about the Israeli occupation according to international law.

It may not be exactly illegal, but there are certainly Security Council Resolutions that make the occupation ad infinitum seen like not what the international community expects from Israel. [...] 81523 30 9_ISO Elihu11_Judy Gelman16_gelman@EROLS.COM31_Fri, 24 Feb 2006 09:22:25 -0500435_ISO-8859-1 Dear Chevreh,

I sent Elihu an email at EliD@worldnet.att.net and it bounced. Does anyone know his new email address?

For those who are curious: I need to find about his resolution on proseltyzing at the US Air Force Academy for the JCPA plenum that starts in a few days. If anyone else will be at the JCPA meetings in DC, let me know so we can sit together at lunch or otherwise just say hello in person. [...] 81554 38 13_Re: ISO Elihu11_Judy Gelman16_gelman@EROLS.COM31_Fri, 24 Feb 2006 09:23:50 -0500561_ISO-8859-1 Sorry--that word is "proselytizing". The email escaped from me while I was unmangling the spelling,

Judy

Judy Gelman wrote:

> Dear Chevreh, > > I sent Elihu an email at EliD@worldnet.att.net and it bounced. Does > anyone know his new email address? > For those who are curious: I need to find about his resolution on > proseltyzing at the US Air Force Academy for the JCPA plenum that > starts in a few days. If anyone else will be at the JCPA meetings in > DC, let me know so we can sit together at lunch or otherwise just [...] 81593 50 13_Re: ISO Elihu14_Holtzer Family20_carmdave@URIM.ORG.IL31_Fri, 24 Feb 2006 16:30:27 +0200594_iso-8859-1 elihu.davison@VERIZON.NET ----- Original Message ----- From: "Judy Gelman" To: Sent: Friday, February 24, 2006 4:22 PM Subject: ISO Elihu



> > Dear Chevreh, > > I sent Elihu an email at EliD@worldnet.att.net and it bounced. Does > anyone know his new email address? > For those who are curious: I need to find about his resolution on > proseltyzing at the US Air Force Academy for the JCPA plenum that starts > in a few days. If anyone else will be at the JCPA meetings in DC, let me > know so we can sit together at lunch [...] 81644 167 44_"FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION IS WESTERN TERRORISM"8_Jon Baum19_jonbaum@SASA.ORG.IL31_Fri, 24 Feb 2006 17:18:56 +0200568_us-ascii The Lebanonization of Europe Books

BY FRED SIEGEL February 23, 2006 URL: http://www.nysun.com/article/28013

The storm over the Danish cartoons has been mistakenly described as a debate over the limits of free speech. One of the milder posters carried during a Londonistan anti-cartoon protest read "FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION IS WESTERN TERRORISM." The coverage in the mainstream American press has ranged from the banal to the bizarre, depicting broad-minded Danes and Dutchmen as raving xenophobes for refusing to tolerate Muslim intolerance. [...] 81812 27 44_Elections 2006 in Israel- website in English11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@MJDS.ORG31_Fri, 24 Feb 2006 10:15:40 -0600624_us-ascii http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/elections2006.jhtml?contrassID=1&subContrassID=30







________________________________________________________________ Sent via the WebMail system at mjds.org









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To unsubscribe email: HABONET-unsubscribe-request@SHAMASH.ORG 81840 48 13_Re: ISO Elihu0_13_JLCAA@AOL.COM29_Fri, 24 Feb 2006 11:43:54 EST434_US-ASCII _elihu.davison@verizon.net_ (mailto:elihu.davison@verizon.net)

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To unsubscribe email: HABONET-unsubscribe-request@SHAMASH.ORG 81889 32 14_Re: 90 percent12_David Fleiss20_dfleiss@PIPELINE.COM31_Fri, 24 Feb 2006 14:18:30 -0500310_ISO-8859-1 > Please point to any other civilian settlements on > occupied territory that have been termed illegal and don’t tell me that this > has not happened elsewhere since the adoption of the Fourth Geneva > Convention. It cannot be that international law is something that applies > only to Israel. [...] 81922 284 30_Re: Reply to Amnon; 90 percent12_amnon hadary22_gershon-keileh@013.NET31_Fri, 24 Feb 2006 22:47:59 +0200516_ISO-8859-1 Frank, In your ungrudging reply you conjured up Pirkei Avot where I found: "m'kol melamdai hiskalti u'metalmidei yoter mkulam" - I've learned from all who taught me, most of all from my students. I've learned genorosity, restraint, and being non-judgemental from you. Thanks,

Shabbat shalom, Amnon ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michal and Efraim Perlmutter" To: Sent: Friday, February 24, 2006 7:42 AM Subject: Reply to Amnon; 90 percent [...] 82207 58 18_Barbie & the tribe16_Elihu D. Davison25_elihu.davison@VERIZON.NET31_Sat, 25 Feb 2006 01:43:04 -0500543_us-ascii http://festival.sundance.org/2006/watch/film.aspx?which=423&category=DOC







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To unsubscribe email: HABONET-unsubscribe-request@SHAMASH.ORG 82266 129 18_Sam F. : response.13_Pearl Skolnik25_pskolnik@NETVISION.NET.IL31_Sat, 25 Feb 2006 22:07:22 +0200367_iso-8859-1 Professor Moshe Sharon of the Hebrew University told me that Joan Peter's book was factually correct. He teaches Islamic history and is an expert on Palestine. pearl ----- Original Message ----- From: Smfgrappa@AOL.COM To: HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2006 2:16 PM Subject: Re: Beilin's piece on the next political move after Hamas [...] 82396 81 22_Re: Sam F. : response.0_17_Smfgrappa@AOL.COM29_Sat, 25 Feb 2006 17:19:42 EST511_US-ASCII

In a message dated 02/25/2006 4:50:45 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, pskolnik@NETVISION.NET.IL writes:

Professor Moshe Sharon of the Hebrew University told me that Joan Peter's book was factually correct. He teaches Islamic history and is an expert on Palestine. pearl





Well if she is factually correct, you are wrong. Apparently you yourself did not bother to read the book. Sometimes you just can't win unless you actually read the book. I did, but only twice. [...] 82478 108 22_Re: Sam F. : response.13_Pearl Skolnik25_pskolnik@NETVISION.NET.IL31_Sun, 26 Feb 2006 00:46:49 +0200346_iso-8859-1 i read the book. what i wrote before was also not quoted from the book. if professor sharon says (to his great surprise) that the book is factually correct, why do you dispute it? ----- Original Message ----- From: Smfgrappa@AOL.COM To: HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2006 12:19 AM Subject: Re: Sam F. : response. [...] 82587 101 22_Re: Sam F. : response.0_17_Smfgrappa@AOL.COM29_Sat, 25 Feb 2006 18:20:50 EST586_US-ASCII In a message dated 02/25/2006 5:48:03 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, pskolnik@NETVISION.NET.IL writes:

i read the book. what i wrote before was also not quoted from the book. if professor sharon says (to his great surprise) that the book is factually correct, why do you dispute it?



I am not disputing the book, although some people do. If the book is factually correct then your claim that the Jews were a majority back in the day is not correct. How do I know? I read the book twice. If the Professor says the book is correct why are you so unwilling [...] 82689 153 25_Re: Sam F. : response #2.13_Pearl Skolnik25_pskolnik@NETVISION.NET.IL31_Sun, 26 Feb 2006 07:15:08 +0200557_iso-8859-1 I am living in a yishuv and do not have access to my books now. I wrote my graduation thesis at the University on Regional Cooperation in the Middle East, and at the time had access to documents of the British Mandate, on which I based much of my thesis. I worked on it in the Egyptian Embassy in Washington and in the NY Public Library. There are other materials available that Joan Peters did not use. Much depends on which dates you are using. It is well-known and provable fact that the great Arab immigrations into Palestine took place [...] 82843 198 25_Re: Sam F. : response #2.0_17_Smfgrappa@AOL.COM29_Sun, 26 Feb 2006 08:02:49 EST620_US-ASCII In a message dated 02/26/2006 12:47:43 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, pskolnik@NETVISION.NET.IL writes:

I do not dispute that there were Arabs here, but I do dispute that they all were indigenous.

That is not what you said. You said the Jews were in a majority.

Perhaps we can compare what is happening in Europe today to what happened here in the late 19th and early 20th century. Arabs gradually move here to take advantage of better conditions and then as their numbers and influence grow they wish to be considered the decisive population. This is still a little controversial but it [...] 83042 59 16_Animal husbandry8_Jon Baum19_jonbaum@SASA.ORG.IL31_Sun, 26 Feb 2006 17:18:13 +0200423_us-ascii http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/4748292.stm

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To unsubscribe email: HABONET-unsubscribe-request@SHAMASH.ORG 83102 84 10_90 percent28_Michal and Efraim Perlmutter24_habesor@NETVISION.NET.IL31_Sun, 26 Feb 2006 19:22:22 +0200444_iso-8859-1 Yuval wrote:

". . . I can see no better place to wash some dirty Zionist laundry than this list. . ."

Yuval, perhaps this is your attempt at being provocative but I don't wash anyone's dirty laundry in public. If you want to exchange information, ideas and opinions about the Arab-Israeli conflict or about any other political issue, I'm game. If you want to co-author a gossip column with me, I'm not interested. [...] 83187 50 14_Re: 90 percent17_Sheldon and Heidi21_shelheid@ACTCOM.CO.IL31_Sun, 26 Feb 2006 19:48:51 +0200672_us-ascii There are those who would say it was Shimon Peres who got Bibi elected. oy shimon shimon



>Yuval, you also provided us with an analysis of the 1996 elections and >asserted that it was the Russian immigrants who elected Bibi. I would >suggest that in 1996, it would be more valid to write that it was the PLO >rejectionist front and the Hamas backed by Arafat, who elected Bibi. > >Efraim Perlmutter > >------------------------------------------------------------------------- >The HABONET mailing list is hosted by >Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org, >a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and >an online MA in [...] 83238 109 14_Re: 90 percent8_Jon Baum19_jonbaum@SASA.ORG.IL31_Sun, 26 Feb 2006 19:50:08 +0200278_us-ascii Let's cut to the chase, Efraim. What you really should ask Yuval - and I'll do it now - is: Yuval, do you think that the massive Russian aliya of the '90's was detrimental to the State of Israel because many of them voted for Bibi? Should we not have let them in? [...] 83348 134 31_Steyn on Ilan Halimi and others8_Jon Baum19_jonbaum@SASA.ORG.IL31_Sun, 26 Feb 2006 19:53:16 +0200618_us-ascii Needing to wake up, West just closes its eyes



February 26, 2006

BY MARK STEYN SUN-TIMES COLUMNIST



In five years' time, how many Jews will be living in France? Two years ago, a 23-year-old Paris disc jockey called Sebastien Selam was heading off to work from his parents' apartment when he was jumped in the parking garage by his Muslim neighbor Adel. Selam's throat was slit twice, to the point of near-decapitation; his face was ripped off with a fork; and his eyes were gouged out. Adel climbed the stairs of the apartment house dripping blood and yelling, "I have [...] 83483 116 14_Re: 90 percent0_23_rdsmith1957@COMCAST.NET31_Sun, 26 Feb 2006 19:09:10 +0000577_- Obviously Yuval is mistaken, from what I can tell it was too many immigrants from Philadelphia that has turned Israel to the right.

-------------- Original message ---------------------- From: Jon Baum > Let's cut to the chase, Efraim. What you really should ask Yuval - and I'll > do it now - is: Yuval, do you think that the massive Russian aliya of the > '90's was detrimental to the State of Israel because many of them voted for > Bibi? Should we not have let them in? > > Jon > > -----Original Message----- > From: Habonim Dror Alumni [...] 83600 180 14_Re: 90 percent13_Yuval Warshai20_warshy@SBCGLOBAL.NET31_Sun, 26 Feb 2006 14:10:40 -0500552_iso-8859-1 I agree with you, Jon. Let's cut to the chase. I think you ask a very good question indeed.

1) Yes, I think the 500,000+ (how many really?) Russian immigrantes that were brought in are detrimental to the State of Israel and to Zionism in the last analysis. The harm they have done to the peace prospects for the state is enormous, and the consequences of it will continue to be felt for a long time to come still. I just hope Olmert can get somehow elected with a majority that allows him to build a center-left coalition, not a [...] 83781 225 14_Re: 90 percent8_Jon Baum19_jonbaum@SASA.ORG.IL31_Sun, 26 Feb 2006 21:45:11 +0200571_us-ascii Ok, glad we cleared that up. I guess things seem different in Michigan.

My own point of view is that the Russian aliya is one of the best things that ever happened to Israel. The vast majority of olim from the former Soviet Union are cultured, well-educated and hard-working ordinary citizens. The high-tech boom in Israel in the 90's was a direct result of their arrival here due, in large part, to the excellent level of mathematics instruction in the old USSR. Do they have some bad seeds? Of course they do; any large group of people will have a [...] 84007 145 14_Re: 90 percent8_Jon Baum19_jonbaum@SASA.ORG.IL31_Sun, 26 Feb 2006 21:47:08 +0200445_us-ascii Careful Richard or I'll send Karl Rove your address.

-----Original Message----- From: Habonim Dror Alumni Virtual Machaneh [mailto:HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG] On Behalf Of rdsmith1957@COMCAST.NET Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2006 9:09 PM To: HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG Subject: Re: 90 percent



Obviously Yuval is mistaken, from what I can tell it was too many immigrants from Philadelphia that has turned Israel to the right. [...] 84153 125 10_90 percent28_Michal and Efraim Perlmutter24_habesor@NETVISION.NET.IL31_Sun, 26 Feb 2006 22:09:02 +0200655_iso-8859-1 Sam, in regards to the legality of the occupation, you wrote:

"It may not be exactly illegal, but there are certainly Security Council Resolutions that make the occupation ad infinitum seen like not what the international community expects from Israel."

I'm not sure that "the international community" expects anything from Israel. There are certain expectations voiced from time to time in the UN General Assembly but one gets the impression that most states place such a low value on General Assembly festivities that they will vote for any outrageous Arab sponsored resolution to placate the Arabs because such votes have [...] 84279 223 14_Fw: 90 percent11_Noam Stopak21_nstopak@STARPOWER.NET31_Sun, 26 Feb 2006 15:10:41 -0500603_iso-8859-1 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Noam Stopak" To: Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2006 2:58 PM Subject: Re: 90 percent



> ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jon Baum" > To: > Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2006 2:47 PM > Subject: Re: 90 percent > > >> Careful Richard or I'll send Karl Rove your address. > > As if he didn't already have it... > > Not that we mind, mind you. Hello to all my friends at the NSA. God > bless America! Or is that Allah Akbar? So hard to know the proper > [...] 84503 69 10_90 percent28_Michal and Efraim Perlmutter24_habesor@NETVISION.NET.IL31_Sun, 26 Feb 2006 22:41:35 +0200370_iso-8859-1 I wrote the following:

"Please point to any other civilian settlements on occupied territory that have been termed illegal and don’t tell me that this has not happened elsewhere since the adoption of the Fourth Geneva Convention. It cannot be that international law is something that applies only to Israel."

To which David Fleiss replied: [...] 84573 391 14_Re: 90 percent0_17_Smfgrappa@AOL.COM29_Sun, 26 Feb 2006 21:15:28 EST381_US-ASCII In a message dated 02/26/2006 3:09:39 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, habesor@NETVISION.NET.IL writes:

Sam, in regards to the legality of the occupation, you wrote:

"It may not be exactly illegal, but there are certainly Security Council Resolutions that make the occupation ad infinitum seen like not what the international community expects from Israel." [...] 84965 31 10_90 percent28_Michal and Efraim Perlmutter24_habesor@NETVISION.NET.IL31_Mon, 27 Feb 2006 08:46:07 +0200627_iso-8859-1 Sheldon and/or Heidi wrote:

"There are those who would say it was Shimon Peres who got Bibi elected. oy shimon shimon"

Indeed there are. As it happened the Ethiopian immigrants voted overwhelmingly for the Likud and Bibi. Their votes probably supplied the margin of victory which was anyway very narrow. I'm surprised that most people don't blame them. The Arab voters stayed away from the polls in large numbers, they could also be blamed. I'm just wondering why someone would place all of the blame on the Russian immigrants. Perhaps because they chose the "wrong" side in that other popularity [...] 84997 40 14_Cohen vs Cohen0_23_rdsmith1957@COMCAST.NET31_Mon, 27 Feb 2006 08:11:33 +0000344_- http://sportsline.com/spin/story/9265014

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85038 155 10_90 percent28_Michal and Efraim Perlmutter24_habesor@NETVISION.NET.IL31_Mon, 27 Feb 2006 10:22:33 +0200357_iso-8859-1 Yuval wrote:

"Yes, I think the 500,000+ (how many really?) Russian immigrantes that were brought in are detrimental to the State of Israel and to Zionism in the last analysis. The harm they have done to the peace prospects for the state is enormous, and the consequences of it will continue to be felt for a long time to come still." [...] 85194 164 14_Re: 90 percent0_23_rdsmith1957@COMCAST.NET31_Mon, 27 Feb 2006 08:32:23 +0000584_- I agree with most of this but I don't think it is fair to imply Marz was anti-Semitic.

-------------- Original message ---------------------- From: Michal and Efraim Perlmutter > Yuval wrote: > > "Yes, I think the 500,000+ (how many really?) Russian immigrantes that > were brought in are detrimental to the State of Israel and to Zionism in the > last analysis. The harm they have done to the peace prospects for the state > is enormous, and the consequences of it will continue to be felt for a long > time to come still." > > Let's examine [...] 85359 81 10_90 percent28_Michal and Efraim Perlmutter24_habesor@NETVISION.NET.IL31_Mon, 27 Feb 2006 12:37:31 +0200291_iso-8859-1 Sam, you wrote:

"I don't think that from a practical point of view the occupation or whatever you call is in Israel's best interest or gets us good press. We are not about to be hauled in front of the World Court, but the occupation just creates all around bad will." [...] 85441 194 14_Re: 90 percent0_17_Smfgrappa@AOL.COM29_Mon, 27 Feb 2006 07:17:14 EST563_US-ASCII

In a message dated 02/27/2006 5:38:29 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, habesor@NETVISION.NET.IL writes:



Except for where Israel has formally annexed territory I call it an occupation. It has had some benefits and costs but I won't be able to judge the overall effect on Israel's interests until one way or the other the occupation ends. One of the benefits is that the occupation gives Israel something to trade the Arabs in exchange for peace. This is the way it worked with Egypt and it should have worked with the Palestinians. [...] 85636 421 14_Re: 90 percent0_17_Smfgrappa@AOL.COM29_Mon, 27 Feb 2006 07:54:07 EST372_US-ASCII In a message dated 02/27/2006 5:38:29 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, habesor@NETVISION.NET.IL writes:

"I don't think that from a practical point of view the occupation or whatever you call is in Israel's best interest or gets us good press. We are not about to be hauled in front of the World Court, but the occupation just creates all around bad will." [...] 86058 1085 40_Fw: Let no Holocaust Victim be Forgotten11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@SOCAL.RR.COM31_Mon, 27 Feb 2006 09:16:45 -0800397_iso-8859-1

From a trusted correspondant:

Steve

\ Subject: Let no Holocaust Victim be Forgotten



It is extremely important that we do not allow the Nazis to obliterate the memory of those they and their cohorts murdered. As you will see below, half of the six million have been remembered at Yad Vashem. But that means that three million are still missing. [...] 87144 429 78_Fw: Wisse: Harvard profs oust Larry Summers. Now they must face their students11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@SOCAL.RR.COM31_Mon, 27 Feb 2006 09:55:29 -0800781_iso-8859-1





More on Academia

Steve















CROSS COUNTRY

Coup d'Ecole Harvard professors oust Larry Summers. Now they must face their students.

BY RUTH R. WISSE Thursday, February 23, 2006 12:01 a.m. http://www.opinionjournal.com/cc/?id=110008004

CAMBRIDGE, Mass.--The resignation of Lawrence Summers as president of Harvard turns the spotlight on the Faculty of Arts and Sciences (FAS), which has consecrated more time and energy to his ouster than to any other project of the past five years. Until now, all blame has been leveled at the president: "Fear and manipulation have been used to govern maliciously," charged one professor, who has since been awarded with a [...] 87574 239 51_efraim perlmutter, non-jewish aliya to Israel, etc.13_Pearl Skolnik25_pskolnik@NETVISION.NET.IL31_Mon, 27 Feb 2006 11:25:21 +0200460_iso-8859-1 Efraim, shalom, yesher koach! You said it better than anyone could have. I hope my agreeing with your letter doesn't negatively influence its effect on others. Point by point you destroyed his entire holey thesis. re the sentence: where it is hoped the next suicide bombing will not happen BEFORE the elections, but rather AFTERWARDS, I would add something else to that sentence, but then I probably would be attacked for the rest of the year. [...] 87814 26 26_Re: Marx (Was: 90 percent)12_David Fleiss20_dfleiss@PIPELINE.COM31_Mon, 27 Feb 2006 16:29:45 -0500471_us-ascii >I agree with most of this but I don't think it is fair to imply Marz was anti-Semitic.

While I don't necessarily agree with Efraim's conclusions, I think he's absolutely right about Marx. (I'm assuming that he's referring to Karl, and not Groucho.)

Have you read Marx's writings about Jews and Judaism? They're usually printed under the title "On the Jewish Question." It's hard to question whether Marx was an antisemite after reading them. [...] 87841 25 35_Re: Cindy Sheehan (Was: 90 percent)12_David Fleiss20_dfleiss@PIPELINE.COM31_Mon, 27 Feb 2006 16:44:55 -0500351_us-ascii > Certainly Cindy Shehan and Michael Moore > and Ralph Nader have said some anti Israel things.

I don't know about Moore or Nader, but the only anti-Israel thing that Cindy Sheehan has said is that she opposes the occupation of the West Bank and Gaza. If that's anti-Israel, then so are (at least) half of the members of Habonet. [...] 87867 36 31_Israel compared to South Africa0_23_rdsmith1957@COMCAST.NET31_Tue, 28 Feb 2006 08:42:17 +0000361_- http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3212282,00.html

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87904 104 35_Re: Israel compared to South Africa8_Jon Baum19_jonbaum@SASA.ORG.IL31_Tue, 28 Feb 2006 14:31:25 +0200699_us-ascii http://www.honestreporting.com/articles/45884734/critiques/Guardian_Promotes _Apartheid_Slur.asp

-----Original Message----- From: Habonim Dror Alumni Virtual Machaneh [mailto:HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG] On Behalf Of rdsmith1957@COMCAST.NET Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2006 10:42 AM To: HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG Subject: Israel compared to South Africa



http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3212282,00.html _____



The HABONET mailing list is hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network, a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies . [...] 88009 58 12_Shimon Peres0_15_Emabear@AOL.COM29_Tue, 28 Feb 2006 10:56:56 EST275_US-ASCII I heard, over the weekend, that in Shimon Peres' new book he advocates Jews marrying Arabs in order to further help arriving at peace. I heard it from two different people but found to so shocking that I thought I would ask here since you all are so well read. [...] 88068 88 36_Fw: "Brand New Key" by Melanie [???]11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@SOCAL.RR.COM31_Tue, 28 Feb 2006 10:59:48 -0800347_iso-8859-1

I can't imagine this not bringing some kind of plearure to all of us.

Steve











Click on the link below to find out what the #1 song was when you were born. Then put it in the "Subject" line and send it back to the person who sent it to you and forward it to other people. [...] 88157 348 52_Fw: Dubai Ports Firm Enforces Arab Boycott of Israel11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@SOCAL.RR.COM31_Tue, 28 Feb 2006 11:19:00 -0800600_iso-8859-1

Note: A piece of news from this morning has it that one of the drafters of the contract (Sec. of Treas.?) stood to make $33 million in options off this deal. Can you spell "CONFLICT OF INTEREST" little boys and girls?!

Steve







Dubai Ports Firm Enforces Arab Boycott of Israel



It is against U.S. law for companies to comply with the Arab boycott of Israel. Below you will find a report that shows that Dubai Ports World, the company that is trying to buy control of 6 major US ports, continues to enforce this illegal action. [...] 88506 137 56_Re: Fw: Dubai Ports Firm Enforces Arab Boycott of Israel11_Judy Gelman16_gelman@EROLS.COM31_Tue, 28 Feb 2006 19:29:52 -0500541_ISO-8859-1 I heard today from a reliable source that Chinese companies operate all the western ports. Judy

Steve Klein wrote:

> > Note: A piece of news from this morning has it that one of the > drafters of the contract (Sec. of Treas.?) stood to make $33 million > in options off this deal. Can you spell "CONFLICT OF INTEREST" little > boys and girls?! > > Steve > > > > *_Dubai Ports Firm Enforces Arab Boycott of Israel_* > > It is against U.S. law for companies to comply with the Arab boycott > of Israel. Below you [...] 88644 72 49_Fw: usenet (was: Cindy Sheehan (Was: 90 percent))11_Noam Stopak21_nstopak@STARPOWER.NET31_Tue, 28 Feb 2006 19:39:53 -0500640_iso-8859-1 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Noam Stopak" To: "David Fleiss" Sent: Monday, February 27, 2006 9:16 PM Subject: Re: usenet (was: Cindy Sheehan (Was: 90 percent))



> While some usenet newsgroups may be unreliable, usenet, as a forerunning > of the web in terms of sharing information, was and is a valuable > technical > resource. It was indexed at one point by a service called "dejanews" > which was subsequently purchased by Google. Now you can search it under > "groups" at the Google site. > > In general one should take care to evaluate the reliability [...] 88717 152 56_Re: Fw: Dubai Ports Firm Enforces Arab Boycott of Israel12_Sharon Gates21_sbgates@EARTHLINK.NET31_Tue, 28 Feb 2006 19:39:38 -0500606_us-ascii While there is certainly a national security question about having foreign companies operate US port facilities, it is rather disengenuous to complain now about Dubai Ports. Cearly nobody cares that foreign companies have run our ports for years. I don't know all that much about port operations, but I know some about how the Port of Long Beach runs (it's a City of Long Beach operation). The Port leases terminals to private operators. As Judy says, most of these operators on the west coast are Chinese (no, I don't know the percentage). The private companies run the terminals, the Coast [...] 88870 40 56_Re: Fw: Dubai Ports Firm Enforces Arab Boycott of Israel11_Noam Stopak21_nstopak@STARPOWER.NET31_Tue, 28 Feb 2006 19:41:22 -0500610_iso-8859-1 Must have happened during the Clinton years :-)

----- Original Message ----- From: "Judy Gelman" To: Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2006 7:29 PM Subject: Re: Fw: Dubai Ports Firm Enforces Arab Boycott of Israel



>I heard today from a reliable source that Chinese companies operate all > the western ports. > Judy > > Steve Klein wrote: > >> >> Note: A piece of news from this morning has it that one of the >> drafters of the contract (Sec. of Treas.?) stood to make $33 million >> in options off this deal. Can you spell "CONFLICT OF [...] 88911 56 56_Re: Fw: Dubai Ports Firm Enforces Arab Boycott of Israel11_Judy Gelman16_gelman@EROLS.COM31_Tue, 28 Feb 2006 19:52:53 -0500602_ISO-8859-1 I heard it from a Democratic party source so I think this is new. Otherwise, they shouldn't be running against the Bush administration on it. Judy

Noam Stopak wrote:

> Must have happened during the Clinton years :-) > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Judy Gelman" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2006 7:29 PM > Subject: Re: Fw: Dubai Ports Firm Enforces Arab Boycott of Israel > > >> I heard today from a reliable source that Chinese companies operate >> all the western ports. >> Judy >> >> Steve Klein wrote: >> >>> >>> [...] 88968 15 56_Re: Fw: Dubai Ports Firm Enforces Arab Boycott of Israel0_23_rdsmith1957@COMCAST.NET30_Wed, 1 Mar 2006 01:15:12 +0000388_- The Democrats are making an issue of it because they can. It's a populist issue that they can get milage from without having to do much. I know that I don't know if leasing the ports to UAE will be bad for security, but apparently lots of folks assume it is bad so the Dems are jumping all over it. It's a lot easier than coming up with a health care plan or Social Security plan. [...] 88984 52 56_Re: Fw: Dubai Ports Firm Enforces Arab Boycott of Israel11_Noam Stopak21_nstopak@STARPOWER.NET31_Tue, 28 Feb 2006 21:21:08 -0500301_iso-8859-1 I seem to remember a Democratic health care plan. Got us 12 years of a Republican House majority (so far). Guess I can understand why they aren't talking it up. Did I miss something? Is there a Republican plan other than more tax cuts? Given the choice, I'll take single payer please. [...] 89037 60 56_Re: Fw: Dubai Ports Firm Enforces Arab Boycott of Israel0_23_rdsmith1957@COMCAST.NET30_Wed, 1 Mar 2006 02:33:33 +0000620_- Did you misunderstand me? I wasn't defending Republicans. I was merely saying that the Dems are jumping on this port thing because its easy and doesn't cost anything, and, perhaps not, because its actually bad for security.

-------------- Original message ---------------------- From: Noam Stopak > I seem to remember a Democratic health care plan. Got us 12 years of a > Republican House majority (so far). Guess I can understand why they aren't > talking it up. Did I miss something? Is there a Republican plan other than > more tax cuts? Given the choice, I'll take single payer [...] 89098 66 56_Re: Fw: Dubai Ports Firm Enforces Arab Boycott of Israel11_Noam Stopak21_nstopak@STARPOWER.NET31_Tue, 28 Feb 2006 21:39:25 -0500412_iso-8859-1 You seemed to be saying that the Dems don't have a health care plan or a social security plan. I think that's bunk and needs to be challenged every time it comes up in conversation or the media.

----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2006 9:33 PM Subject: Re: Fw: Dubai Ports Firm Enforces Arab Boycott of Israel [...] 89165 32 56_Re: Fw: Dubai Ports Firm Enforces Arab Boycott of Israel11_Noam Stopak21_nstopak@STARPOWER.NET31_Tue, 28 Feb 2006 21:47:13 -0500357_iso-8859-1 And it's not like it's only Democrats that oppose the deal... of course that may only go to show that demagoguery is a bipartisan sport :-)

----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2006 9:33 PM Subject: Re: Fw: Dubai Ports Firm Enforces Arab Boycott of Israel [...]