1 SHAMASH.ORG /usr/www/wwwhc/listserv/archives/habonet January 2006 2 613 25_Demography and the future8_Jon Baum19_jonbaum@SASA.ORG.IL30_Mon, 2 Jan 2006 09:19:55 +0200627_iso-8859-1 I know that some folks won't like the arguments here but, if nothing else, they're worth considering. As usual, in my humble opinion, Mark Steyn nails it. Happy New Year everyone.

Jon



Its the demography, stupid

By Mark Steyn

Most people reading this have strong stomachs, so let me lay it out as baldly as I can: Much of what we loosely call the western world will survive this century, and much of it will effectively disappear within our lifetimes, including many if not most western European countries. Therell probably still be a geographical area on the map marked as [...] 616 99 9_Thank you11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@SOCAL.RR.COM30_Mon, 2 Jan 2006 06:58:59 -0800337_iso-8859-1 To Jon Baum

Thank you for the Steyn article. I will pass it along. We just got back from a wonderful few weeks in Israel, seeing friends and helping family celebrate the wedding of my niece. My daughter (Sandy Kaplan's also) came in from Madagascar. The bride's family lives in Mivasseret Zion, next to Jerusalem. [...] 716 496 32_Fw: Fw: Abbott and "you know hu"11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@SOCAL.RR.COM30_Mon, 2 Jan 2006 08:08:02 -0800338_windows-1255

It helps if you read along, or at least move your lips.

Steve





Do you remember the Abbot and Costello "who's on first"? - well, even if you don't, I think you'll enjoy this one. THIS TIME, I DIDN'T FORGET IT

( in Hebrew "HE'" means she, " WHO" means he, and "ME" means who. ) [...] 1213 142 17_Fw: thank you Jon13_Pearl Skolnik25_pskolnik@NETVISION.NET.IL30_Tue, 3 Jan 2006 00:16:42 +0200595_windows-1255

----- Original Message ----- From: Pearl Skolnik To: horwitt@ispwest.com Sent: Monday, January 02, 2006 5:19 PM Subject: thank you Jon



Thank you Jon for sending the article by Styne. It tells it like it is.

Recently, I returned from hospital after a two month stay in Hadassa, where all three of my room-mates, one after another, were Arab muslim women. (In fact, the vast majority of patients in our department were Arabs.) The one who was with me the longest was Maha, with whom I am still in contact and I visit her every week when I go for my [...] 1356 40 16_Fairly funny map0_23_rdsmith1957@COMCAST.NET30_Tue, 3 Jan 2006 00:08:44 +0000399_- Not brilliant but a few yucks to be had.

http://www.tremble.com/scribblins/us_of_ra.html

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1397 42 19_Searching for a Job13_Amir Gorewitz22_amirgorewitz@YAHOO.COM30_Mon, 2 Jan 2006 22:34:50 -0800497_iso-8859-1 My name is Amir Gorewitz. I am a former camper of Galil and a staff member of Na'aleh for the summers of 2002 and 2003. I am a student at Bar Ilan University, I am studying political science and jewish history. I have been trying to find jobs that are in the social action/change fields. I have been unsuccessful in finding anything. If anybody has any advice, hints, information about jobs with social action/change organizations in Israel, please get in touch with me. Thank you [...] 1440 365 47_Green Zionist Alliance - World Zionist Congress12_Jessica Bonn21_jessicab@BEZEQINT.NET30_Tue, 3 Jan 2006 11:59:43 +0200608_WINDOWS-1252 (forwarding - FYI) Rabbi Michael Cohen, from Manchester VT who is currently teaching at the Arava Institute and who four years ago helped co-found the Green Zionist Alliance http://www.greenzionism.org/ which with help from people like you was able to get a couple of thinking, visionary, concerned people represented at the World Zionist Congress. New elections are coming up and they are asking for your help now. Michael's letter, explaining what you can do to help, is below. I asked Michael who can vote and this is his answer: Any American Jew over the age of 18 can register to vote [...] 1806 25 13_Intermarriage8_Jon Baum19_jonbaum@SASA.ORG.IL30_Tue, 3 Jan 2006 13:09:38 +0200561_us-ascii If I hadn't seen the story on TV, I would have thought this a hoax.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0%2C7340%2CL-3191923%2C00.html

Best line: "But what kind of children would they have?" one of the children in the crowd asked his father.

------------------------------------------------------------------------- The HABONET mailing list is hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org, a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 1832 685 38_Fw: happy new year and happy Chanukah!11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@SOCAL.RR.COM30_Tue, 3 Jan 2006 09:27:50 -0800318_Windows-1252

----- Original Message ----- We spent four of the days we were in Israel, going through the new portion of Yad VaShem. We still were not able to see everything the structure had to offer, and will be continuing in a year and a half, when we return for the second grandson's bar mitzvah tour. [...] 2518 168 38_Fw: Why Christmas Is Good For The Jews11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@SOCAL.RR.COM30_Tue, 3 Jan 2006 09:37:41 -0800614_iso-8859-1 As I did four years in Catholic high school, I can testify that it only helped strengthen my Judaism.

Steve



Subject: Fw: Why Christmas Is Good For The Jews



>> = = = = = = >> >> I will be forgiven, I hope, for not participating in the panic about >> recent attempts to restore Christianity to Christmas in the United >> States. When Jerry Falwell offers legal aid to Americans who believe >> they've been persecuted for observing Christmas, or Georgia State >> Senator Ronnie Chance pre-files a bill that would prohibit government >> agencies from barring their [...] 2687 230 21_Fw: The Film "Munich"11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@SOCAL.RR.COM30_Tue, 3 Jan 2006 10:19:25 -0800482_iso-8859-1 To Jack and to all my friends

We went to see "Munich" two days ago. Just in case the movie turned out to be what the reviewers said it would be, I took out insurance by buying a ticket to another movie playing at the same time. Now, having actually seen "Munich" the movie, I can say that I am glad I did. See it, that is. I am still glad I didn't pay for it, as its faults lie in the fact that is is simply not a good movie. The way it came off to me, it is [...] 2918 78 23_A Jewish Rip van Winkle0_26_Sharon_Gates@LONGBEACH.GOV30_Tue, 3 Jan 2006 12:11:35 -0800401_us-ascii I am posting this on Amnon's behalf, while he sorts out posting from his new e-mail address. -Sharon

___________________________________________________________________________________ Haverot/im I've been absent for quite a while. Now it's time for a comeback. Here's another installment in a long list of midrashim. This one is about a colorful old timer.

HONI HA'MAAGEL [...] 2997 185 21_From the New Republic8_Jon Baum19_jonbaum@SASA.ORG.IL30_Tue, 3 Jan 2006 23:25:37 +0200619_us-ascii MAYHEM IN GAZA AND THE FUTURE OF PALESTINE. Warning Shots by Martin Peretz Only at TNR Online Post date: 01.03.06 he only thing that's going to solve this," Steven Spielberg told Time magazine, "is rational minds, a lot of sitting and talking until you're blue in the gills." This, I suppose, is what goes for heavy thinking in Hollywood. Imagine DreamWorks negotiating with Paramount if the latter were continually shooting up the former. So maybe before the Israelis and Palestinians sit down with each other--as they've done innumerable times over the years, at Camp David and Oslo and secret hideouts [...] 3183 48 17_Re: Intermarriage11_Noam Stopak21_nstopak@STARPOWER.NET30_Tue, 3 Jan 2006 22:28:57 -0500711_iso-8859-1 Yeah yeah, I saw it on TV so it must be true. Seriously Jon...

So where does a dolphin go bowling in Eilat anyway?

Noam

----- Original Message ----- From: "Jon Baum" To: Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2006 6:09 AM Subject: Intermarriage



> If I hadn't seen the story on TV, I would have thought this a hoax. > > http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0%2C7340%2CL-3191923%2C00.html > > Best line: > "But what kind of children would they have?" one of the children in the > crowd asked his father. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > The HABONET mailing list is hosted by > Shamash: [...] 3232 71 17_Re: Intermarriage8_Jon Baum19_jonbaum@SASA.ORG.IL30_Wed, 4 Jan 2006 06:52:39 +0200476_us-ascii No shit, Noam, I watched the ceremony on Channel 2 news Friday night. Do you think they served sushi at the reception? Do you think this woman's poor mother asked "Is he a doctor, at least?" The possibilities here are endless.

Jon

-----Original Message----- From: Habonim Dror Alumni Virtual Machaneh [mailto:HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG] On Behalf Of Noam Stopak Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2006 5:29 AM To: HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG Subject: Re: Intermarriage [...] 3304 86 27_Re: A Jewish Rip van Winkle12_Sue Liberman20_fiddlebach@YAHOO.COM30_Tue, 3 Jan 2006 23:22:53 -0800643_iso-8859-1 In the traditioon of the Talmud, I ask, did the fellowship abandon Honi, or did Honi abandon the fellowship?....susie

--- Sharon_Gates@LONGBEACH.GOV wrote:

> I am posting this on Amnon's behalf, while he sorts > out posting from his > new e-mail address. > -Sharon > > ___________________________________________________________________________________ > > Haverot/im > I've been absent for quite a while. Now it's time > for a comeback. > Here's another installment in a long list of > midrashim. This one is about > a colorful old timer. > > HONI HA'MAAGEL > > (The magic "rain maker." In drought years he drew [...] 3391 354 17_Re: thank you Jon19_Aliya Cheskis-Cotel13_sc523@AOL.COM30_Wed, 4 Jan 2006 03:24:36 -0500 3746 139 27_Re: A Jewish Rip van Winkle19_Aliya Cheskis-Cotel13_sc523@AOL.COM30_Wed, 4 Jan 2006 03:46:36 -0500 3886 36 21_Merry Christmas Santa0_23_rdsmith1957@COMCAST.NET30_Wed, 4 Jan 2006 10:10:17 +0000361_- http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3194238,00.html

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3923 379 51_Re: Green Zionist Alliance - World Zionist Congress0_14_kbob24@AOL.COM30_Wed, 4 Jan 2006 06:54:38 -0500583_iso-8859-1 I am sure many of us can indentify with the Green Zionist Alliance's views and support their activites in Israel. There are even Habonim alumni involved with this group. I would urge you all to indeed register for the election before the January 15 deadline but NOT to vote for the Green Alliance. As I have previously posted, I hope all of you will sincerely consider investing $7 to register for the election and vote for the Hatikva Coalition which includes Habonim Dror among other organizations. To be blunt, this is a time to look after our own interests. This [...] 4303 72 28_On falling asleep in circles0_14_LHIAM1@AOL.COM28_Wed, 4 Jan 2006 08:12:39 EST348_US-ASCII Who is more foolish... the man who draws a circle around himself and declares that his own personal strength and fortitude, his character and inner being will bring rain (as long as he waits long enough at least) or the community that believes him. Amnon to quote another poet - one not found in your book - "A hard rains gonna fall" [...] 4376 470 19_our racist problem?13_Pearl Skolnik25_pskolnik@NETVISION.NET.IL30_Wed, 4 Jan 2006 17:05:39 +0200610_iso-8859-1 it is American jewry that may have a racist problem, but hardly Israel. American Jewry did NOT want the Ethiopian aliya to make its way to American Jewish communities and fought and continues to fight for all Ethiopians to come to Israel. On the other hand, American Jewish organizations certainly took sides on the Russian aliya front, as I recall, and often worked at odds against Israel by encouraging Russian Jews to come to America, HIAS actually setting up offices in Europe for Russian Jews and then funding their coming to America. American Jewish organizations took the stance that no [...] 4847 124 13_thank you Jon13_Pearl Skolnik25_pskolnik@NETVISION.NET.IL30_Wed, 4 Jan 2006 18:31:38 +0200545_windows-1255 Thank you Jon for sending the article by Styne. It tells it like it is.

Recently, I returned from hospital after a two month stay in Hadassa, where all three of my room-mates, one after another, were Arab muslim women. (In fact, the vast majority of patients in our department were Arabs.) The one who was with me the longest was Maha, with whom I am still in contact and I visit her every week when I go for my weekly visit to clinic. She calls me "mama," because her own mother has not visited her for the five months [...] 4972 325 17_Re: thank you Jon8_Jon Baum19_jonbaum@SASA.ORG.IL30_Wed, 4 Jan 2006 18:42:39 +0200386_us-ascii You're very welcome Pearl. I hope you are now well.

Jon

-----Original Message----- From: Habonim Dror Alumni Virtual Machaneh [mailto:HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG] On Behalf Of Pearl Skolnik Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2006 6:32 PM To: HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG Subject: thank you Jon



Thank you Jon for sending the article by Styne. It tells it like it is. [...] 5298 53 2_oy11_Noam Stopak21_nstopak@STARPOWER.NET30_Wed, 4 Jan 2006 17:29:07 -0500390_iso-8859-1 Doesn't sound too good

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/666364.html

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5352 84 6_Re: oy0_23_rdsmith1957@COMCAST.NET30_Thu, 5 Jan 2006 02:42:18 +0000729_- The world has turned upside down, most of the people posting on Habonet are to the right of Attila Hun and the liberals are crossing their fingers hoping Sharon can pull thru.

-------------- Original message ---------------------- From: Noam Stopak > Doesn't sound too good > > http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/666364.html > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > The HABONET mailing list is hosted by > Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org, > a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and > an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ > > To unsubscribe email: HABONET-unsubscribe-request@SHAMASH.ORG [...] 5437 32 6_Re: oy11_Noam Stopak21_nstopak@STARPOWER.NET30_Wed, 4 Jan 2006 22:51:49 -0500474_iso-8859-1 I'm deeply offended by your insensitive characterization of poor Attila Richard. No need for name calling.

----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2006 9:42 PM Subject: Re: oy



> The world has turned upside down, most of the people posting on Habonet > are to the right of Attila Hun and the liberals are crossing their fingers > hoping Sharon can pull thru. > [...] 5470 138 27_Re: A Jewish Rip van Winkle11_Noam Stopak21_nstopak@STARPOWER.NET30_Wed, 4 Jan 2006 22:52:38 -0500422_iso-8859-1 I feel like I missed something here. Does this mean that the book isn't selling well?

Shana tova

Noam ----- Original Message ----- ... ___________________________________________________________________________________ Haverot/im I've been absent for quite a while. Now it's time for a comeback. Here's another installment in a long list of midrashim. This one is about a colorful old timer. [...] 5609 33 6_Re: oy19_lfmarsh@verizon.net19_lfmarsh@VERIZON.NET30_Thu, 5 Jan 2006 00:42:37 -0600547_ISO646-US i am here in israel on the habonim parents' mission. we are staying in the shalom hotel in jerusalem. there are a number of settler families staying here as well. in the room right across from mine, one has posted (it's been up as long as we have been here)a picture of sharon with a bull's eye on his forehead. next to it a sign that says something like "as is rabin, so goes sharon." there were parties in the hall last night, and when we awoke this morning, wondering about sharon's status, we thought, "well are they dancing in [...] 5643 303 51_Re: Green Zionist Alliance - World Zionist Congress19_Aliya Cheskis-Cotel13_sc523@AOL.COM30_Thu, 5 Jan 2006 02:13:25 -0500 5947 436 23_Re: our racist problem?19_Aliya Cheskis-Cotel13_sc523@AOL.COM30_Thu, 5 Jan 2006 02:50:55 -0500 6384 658 23_Re: our racist problem?17_Sheldon and Heidi21_shelheid@ACTCOM.CO.IL30_Thu, 5 Jan 2006 10:48:39 +0200476_us-ascii



No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.13/221 - Release Date: 04/01/2006



------------------------------------------------------------------------- The HABONET mailing list is hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org, a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 7043 45 118_Fwd: Symantec Mail Security detected prohibited content in a message sent from your address (SYM:42122432341476506494)19_Aliya Cheskis-Cotel13_sc523@AOL.COM30_Thu, 5 Jan 2006 04:02:31 -0500 7089 612 15_answer to aliya13_Pearl Skolnik25_pskolnik@NETVISION.NET.IL30_Thu, 5 Jan 2006 11:52:37 +0200577_iso-8859-1 aliya, I did not receive or read your letters. I know all about these Jews you write about. They are not the answer to our demographic problem. Especially for this mailing list, it might be of interest to know that many of these converts go to live in settlements deep in the territories. They are good Jews, religious, hard-working people. However, I still believe that our problem lies within. As long as born Jews are being lost to our people in the millions, a few thousand Indian and African converts to Judaism will not solve the problem. We should worry [...] 7702 139 117_Re: Symantec Mail Security detected prohibited content in a message sent from your address (SYM:42122432341476506494)13_Yuval Warshai21_warshai@SBCGLOBAL.NET30_Thu, 5 Jan 2006 10:18:04 -0500582_iso-8859-1 No, we haven't found a solution to this problem yet, although there are a number of people involved in trying to find one. It is a small nuisance, in my view, but nothing to get really "upset" about. As it is, you can take as a simple confirmation that your message did get posted on the list server... ;) ___ |Y| ^^^ ----- Original Message ----- From: Aliya Cheskis-Cotel To: HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2006 4:02 AM Subject: Fwd: Symantec Mail Security detected prohibited content in a message sent from your address (SYM:42122432341476506494) [...] 7842 249 19_Re: answer to aliya12_Sue Liberman20_fiddlebach@YAHOO.COM30_Thu, 5 Jan 2006 07:27:45 -0800551_iso-8859-1 Hi Pearl- I read your answer to Aliya and I have to differ with you regarding the Ethiopians. I know some of them, and got to know a lot about them and thier history not only from the makhelat Sheba which we hosted here a couple of years ago- the kids- but also from the Cohens- Vadie and Dolores, who saved a family many years ago, and from my boss who was instrumental in saviing over 1,000 during "Operation Joshua". The Ethiopian community has deep Jewish roots, and are part of our people from biblical days. This year, when Idan [...] 8092 584 51_Re: Green Zionist Alliance - World Zionist Congress0_14_kbob24@AOL.COM30_Thu, 5 Jan 2006 11:03:32 -0500535_iso-8859-1 Aliya:

As I am not intimately involved with the nuts and bolts of the campaign, immediately below is the answer to your question from Jamie Levin, Ameinu exec director, Ken ------ "Paper ballots were sent in groups. If people do not receive them in the next 2 weeks they should contact the AZM hotline at 1(888)657-8850. If people registered electronically email ballots should have already arrived. If they have not they should contact the AZM hotline. The electronic lag is anywhere from 2 days to two weeks." [...] 8677 117 6_Re: oy0_26_Sharon_Gates@LONGBEACH.GOV30_Thu, 5 Jan 2006 09:17:04 -0800404_us-ascii So they're not dancing in the streets because they have the good fortune to have a very nice roof over their heads. It's a shandeh, even if it isn't shown on CNN.

Sharon









"lfmarsh@verizon.net" 01/04/2006 10:42 PM Please respond to Habonim Dror Alumni Virtual Machaneh [...] 8795 80 17_for aliya cheskis13_Pearl Skolnik25_pskolnik@NETVISION.NET.IL30_Thu, 5 Jan 2006 19:38:13 +0200568_windows-1255 I just saw your posting again and saw the article below it which I had missed before. It does not change anything though. I have been connected to Kulanu for at least three years now, and am extremely interested in the marrano communities who have kept up their Jewish traditions. There is one village, in particular, Belemonte, Portugal, which I hope one day to visit. What I wish to stress here is that the Arabs have been using the fact that non-Jews are being brought to Israel as Jews. They realize that these people, for the most part, are new [...] 8876 75 117_Re: Symantec Mail Security detected prohibited content in a message sent from your address (SYM:42122432341476506494)11_Batel Libes25_batel_libes@EARTHLINK.NET30_Thu, 5 Jan 2006 09:58:01 -0800 8952 275 25_answer to Sue and Habonet13_Pearl Skolnik25_pskolnik@NETVISION.NET.IL30_Thu, 5 Jan 2006 20:00:43 +0200561_iso-8859-1 I am sorry if anyone thought I was referring to Ethiopian Jews, as I definitely was not. I consider them Jews and never thought of them like others who only of late have discovered judaism. There is a question about many of the people who have come to be known as falash mora. It is known that non-Jews, with no Jewish past, have joined them in order to get out of Ethiopia, just like there were non-Jews who joined the original groups that came to Israel. Then again, almost all aliyot have the same phenomenon, including after WWII, when even [...] 9228 42 61_sometimes a cigar is only a cigar was a Jewish Rip van Winkle12_amnon hadary22_gershon-keileh@013.NET30_Thu, 5 Jan 2006 20:20:15 +0200547_iso-8859-1 Haverim/ot Deep Readers Beware One of my red letter days when I lived in Gesher Haziv, ground zero of Splendor Bridge, was when Saul Bellow came to meet me. I'd written about his book HERZOG which later became a chapter I translated for my book TO ROYAL ESTATE. His agent thought it would tickle Bellow and apparently it did. So when he visited Israel after the Six Day War he came for a look see of this kibbutznik who claimed to have found so many ingenious allusions and insights in the work. Either I was blase or I was really [...] 9271 83 65_Re: sometimes a cigar is only a cigar was a Jewish Rip van Winkle12_Sue Liberman20_fiddlebach@YAHOO.COM30_Thu, 5 Jan 2006 11:26:18 -0800517_iso-8859-1 AH- ever the madrich, you raise the question--You tickle us with midrashich allegories, then instruct us not to think--not to do as YOU did ( with Bellow's example)- but to just interpret the literal with no subtext....which "dugma" are we to follow then, the literal critic or the man?....Or are we to separate them from our own experiences?.... I say, a cigar is never JUST a cigar, but carries with it a lot of baggage and disease. We should chomp on that for a while, before we "light up"...susie [...] 9355 223 117_Re: Symantec Mail Security detected prohibited content in a message sent from your address (SYM:42122432341476506494)13_Yuval Warshai21_warshai@SBCGLOBAL.NET30_Thu, 5 Jan 2006 15:44:07 -0500580_iso-8859-1 The problem is that these messages are not being generated by the Shamash list server at all! These messages are not sent to all recipients/subscribers to the Habonet list. They are sent only to the sender of a message to Habonet, i.e. someone that posts a message. The Shamash listserve does not know anything about it, as there are no errors or problems on the server itself after the message has been received and distributed to all list subcribers. That is why this problem has been so elusive and hard to solve. ___ |Y| ^^^ ----- Original Message ----- From: [...] 9579 77 27_Re: A Jewish Rip van Winkle12_amnon hadary22_gershon-keileh@013.NET30_Fri, 6 Jan 2006 00:01:30 +0200370_us-ascii Noam my friend, You didn't miss anything because there wasn't anything to miss. I believe that the book is doing nicely, much of it due to Hiam's great investment of efforts. Believe me, the Jewish Rip van Winkle midrash was a riff without an agenda. Thanks for you concern and thank you for asking instead of sitting in judgement. Always liked you a lot. [...] 9657 22 40_Robertson Links Sharon's Stroke to Wrath11_Batel Libes25_batel_libes@EARTHLINK.NET30_Thu, 5 Jan 2006 14:23:53 -0800 9680 50 43_Chevrah, Dugma, Hagshamah, Blah, Blah, Blah12_Sue Liberman20_fiddlebach@YAHOO.COM30_Thu, 5 Jan 2006 17:19:57 -0800611_iso-8859-1 Dear Chevre- The onset of the internet and the availability of personal computers brought an intense and wonderful change to my life-personally. After having "grown up,"- done the marriage thing, babies, children, career, etc...and after having drifted away from what I thought was going to be my lifework (kibbutz, then Israel, then even that went away), I found myself immersed in the film business, 2,000 miles "from home," on the road a lot, and yet, still espousing the Habonim values I was indoctrinated with at camp, at the "ken" in Israel, I grew to become part of a "producing family"- [...] 9731 198 48_Sue: Chevrah, Dugma, Hagshamah, Blah, Blah, Blah13_Pearl Skolnik25_pskolnik@NETVISION.NET.IL30_Fri, 6 Jan 2006 04:45:07 +0200567_iso-8859-1 sue, how right you are -- you hit it on the head: despite having grown intellectually, changed politically, developed socially and ideologically, we still carry with us the baggage from Habonim. It is inside us v'lo ya'azor klum: it is an integral part of our being, no matter where we stand today, even 50 years later in life. I see it now with my workshop: people whom I have not been in contact with for 50 years (sixth workshop, kfar blum) are writing me and encouraging me, even sending me flowers from the States for shabbat, as well as sharing [...] 9930 21 18_Histadrut question11_Judy Gelman16_gelman@EROLS.COM30_Thu, 5 Jan 2006 23:47:44 -0500497_ISO-8859-1 Does anyone know if the Histadrut traditionally excluded Arabs? My son needs to know for a Jewish history test.

Judy

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To unsubscribe email: HABONET-unsubscribe-request@SHAMASH.ORG 9952 49 22_Re: Histadrut question12_Sue Liberman20_fiddlebach@YAHOO.COM30_Thu, 5 Jan 2006 20:57:24 -0800631_iso-8859-1 From what I remember- no, they did not exclude Arabs...sue

--- Judy Gelman wrote:

> Does anyone know if the Histadrut traditionally > excluded Arabs? My son > needs to know for a Jewish history test. > > Judy > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > The HABONET mailing list is hosted by > Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org, > a service of Hebrew College, which offers online > courses and > an online MA in Jewish Studies, > http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ > > To unsubscribe email: > HABONET-unsubscribe-request@SHAMASH.ORG > [...] 10002 51 22_Re: Histadrut question12_amnon hadary22_gershon-keileh@013.NET30_Fri, 6 Jan 2006 07:22:49 +0200630_us-ascii Shalom Judy Yes. Initially in the pre=state years when there was widespread unemployment among Jewish workers there was a drive to encourage Jewish small capitalists and orange grove owners to employ Jews only. Initially, the name of the Histadrut was "ha-histadrut haklalit shel ha-ovdim haivriim b-eretz yisrael (the general federation of hebrew workers (sic) in the land of Israel.) After the establishment of the state things changed and Israeli Arabs were welcomed into the ranks of Israeli labor. I have a personal family story of the tensions pro and con over Jewish - Arab labor but that's for another time. [...] 10054 74 22_Re: Histadrut question11_Judy Gelman16_gelman@EROLS.COM30_Fri, 6 Jan 2006 01:10:46 -0500646_ISO-8859-1 Thank you! Habonet is the ultimate Israel history resource--available virtually 24 hours a day. Judy

amnon hadary wrote:

> Shalom Judy > Yes. Initially in the pre=state years when there was widespread > unemployment among Jewish workers there was a drive to encourage > Jewish small capitalists and orange grove owners to employ Jews only. > Initially, the name of the Histadrut was "ha-histadrut haklalit > shel ha-ovdim haivriim b-eretz yisrael (the general federation of > hebrew workers (sic) in the land of Israel.) After the establishment > of the state things changed and Israeli Arabs were welcomed into the [...] 10129 222 117_Re: Symantec Mail Security detected prohibited content in a message sent from your address (SYM:42122432341476506494)14_Holtzer Family20_carmdave@URIM.ORG.IL30_Fri, 6 Jan 2006 08:12:13 +0200619_iso-8859-1 I once had a similar problem. I am using dashes to prevent it from happening in this message. In one of our message rules, we blocked the word c-i-a-l-i-s, because we were getting hundreds of emails offering us this product. I found that if I tried to send an email that contained words like spec-i-a-l-i-st or soc-i-a-l-i-sm or soc-i-a-l-i-st, Outlook Express refused to send them. It took me quite a while to figure out why. Does this help? ----- Original Message ----- From: Yuval Warshai To: HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2006 10:44 PM Subject: Re: Symantec Mail Security detected [...] 10352 37 22_Re: Histadrut question6_Hadary25_r_hadary@NETVISION.NET.IL30_Fri, 6 Jan 2006 08:15:55 +0200682_ISO-8859-1 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Judy Gelman" To: Sent: Friday, January 06, 2006 06:47 Subject: Histadrut question



> Does anyone know if the Histadrut traditionally excluded Arabs? My son > needs to know for a Jewish history test. > > Judy > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > The HABONET mailing list is hosted by > Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org, > a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and > an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ > > To unsubscribe email: HABONET-unsubscribe-request@SHAMASH.ORG > [...] 10390 54 21_re Histadrut question6_Hadary25_r_hadary@NETVISION.NET.IL30_Fri, 6 Jan 2006 08:39:45 +0200589_windows-1255 Judy, in 1970, when I opened the office of American Professsors for Peace in the Middle East in Israel, among the many VIPs we set up meetings with for our Fact Finding Missions was Yusuf Khamis. Khamis was the Deputy Director of the Arab Department of the Histadrut. He worked with Arab workers, Arab sports clubs, Arab cultural centers, etc. The Director of the Arab Department was - a little baffling but not surprising - a Jew (Shmuel Cohen, I think.) Which is to say that the Histadrut championed, in the best tradition of (what was) American democracy, a "separate [...] 10445 519 19_Re: answer to aliya19_Aliya Cheskis-Cotel13_sc523@AOL.COM30_Fri, 6 Jan 2006 02:03:10 -0500 10965 40 25_Re: re Histadrut question19_Aliya Cheskis-Cotel13_sc523@AOL.COM30_Fri, 6 Jan 2006 02:47:36 -0500 11006 61 8_Symantec14_Holtzer Family20_carmdave@URIM.ORG.IL30_Fri, 6 Jan 2006 10:39:22 +0200586_iso-8859-1 P.S. I got the message from my mail administrator when I sent this out. It seems to have gotten to Habonet nonetheless:

I once had a similar problem. I am using dashes to prevent it from happening in this message. In one of our message rules, we blocked the word c-i-a-l-i-s, because we were getting hundreds of emails offering us this product. I found that if I tried to send an email that contained words like spec-i-a-l-i-st or soc-i-a-l-i-sm or soc-i-a-l-i-st, Outlook Express refused to send them. It took me quite a while to figure out why. Does this help? [...] 11068 139 117_Re: Symantec Mail Security detected prohibited content in a message sent from your address (SYM:42122432341476506494)19_Aliya Cheskis-Cotel13_sc523@AOL.COM30_Fri, 6 Jan 2006 04:39:52 -0500 11208 40 55_Re: HABONET Digest - 4 Jan 2006 to 5 Jan 2006 (#2006-4)15_Schwartz Family23_arava_eilat@HOTMAIL.COM30_Fri, 6 Jan 2006 11:29:16 +0200636_windows-1255 Shalom Judy

There is a good article on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histadrut . Among the problems I have with the Histadrut is it's past and present forms ;-) Is it's club atmosphere. I personally have sought to have work places organized and have been treated like an Alien from outer space. The Histadrut looks after it's closed club members and has no concept of rights or a level playing field, thus today we have our foreign workers and "man power" companies. Then as now both the histadrut and the Israeli "democracy" are based on leaders rather then representatives, orderly debates are not understood. [...] 11249 128 117_Re: Symantec Mail Security detected prohibited content in a message sent from your address (SYM:42122432341476506494)12_Sue Liberman20_fiddlebach@YAHOO.COM30_Fri, 6 Jan 2006 02:33:04 -0800501_iso-8859-1 I think it was Batel who suggested to use the spam blocker- I tried this ( on Yahoo)- and now I don't get the message anymore--it works!- Thanks- sue

--- Aliya Cheskis-Cotel wrote:



--------------------------------- Yuval - I haveno idea what you are talking about - the messages I posted this pastweek to Habonet@shamash.org were definitely received by persons otherthan me, the sender. Otherwise how would you have received Batel's ormy queries? [...] 11378 388 117_Re: Symantec Mail Security detected prohibited content in a message sent from your address (SYM:42122432341476506494)13_Yuval Warshai21_warshai@SBCGLOBAL.NET30_Fri, 6 Jan 2006 11:32:47 -0500632_iso-8859-1 I am talking about the "prohibited content" supposed error messages that one receives when one posts to Habonet. These "prohibited content" error messages are not received by the entire list, because they are not sent by the Shamash Habonet list server. Only the original sender/poster of the message receives them. And we don't know when or where they are being generated. All we know is that they are not being generated by the Shamash Habonet list server. ___ |Y| ^^^ ----- Original Message ----- From: Aliya Cheskis-Cotel To: HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG Sent: Friday, January 06, 2006 4:39 AM Subject: Re: Symantec Mail [...] 11767 403 78_Fw: Interesting article by Rabbi Boteach on Steven Spielberg's movie "Munich".11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@SOCAL.RR.COM30_Fri, 6 Jan 2006 09:01:37 -0800615_iso-8859-1

Echoing my thoughts closely:

Steve



Subject: Interesting article by Rabbi Boteach on Steven Spielberg's movie "Munich".



Interesting article by Rabbi Boteach on Steven Spielberg's movie "Munich".



Upon my first visit to Munich in the summer of 1992, I immediately proceeded to the infamous apartment block of the Olympian village where the 11 Israel athletes were kidnapped twenty years earlier. I was shocked to discover that only a small stone monument commemorated their slaughter, erected not by the German but by the Israeli government. [...] 12171 242 82_Re: Fw: Interesting article by Rabbi Boteach on Steven Spielberg's movie "Munich".0_26_Sharon_Gates@LONGBEACH.GOV30_Fri, 6 Jan 2006 09:51:08 -0800553_us-ascii It will surprise no one to read that I disagree strongly with Steve and with Rabbi Boteach. I will not comment on the movie "Munich." I have not seen it, I have no desire or intention to see it, and I do not know enough about the history of the incident to have anything useful to say. Instead, I confine my remarks to the conclusions of the article. Rabbi Boteach calls it a hollow argument to say that there will never be an end to the fighting because whatever terrorists America eliminates, 20 more take their place. Rather than being [...] 12414 124 82_Re: Fw: Interesting article by Rabbi Boteach on Steven Spielberg's movie "Munich".12_Sue Liberman20_fiddlebach@YAHOO.COM30_Fri, 6 Jan 2006 10:09:30 -0800552_iso-8859-1 It is too bad you have no desire to see this important film, and sad that you admit to not knowing much about the incident.....This was the first time in history the world was able to watch "live" the extermination of innocent Jews by terrorists, and the recording of this in "black and white." Spielberg's film captures, I felt, the true angst of our situation as a people- the necessity to - as "Golda" speaks "to compromise our values" in the face of terror, being forced to attack and kill . Yeah, it would be nice if all the world [...] 12539 31 78_Re: Interesting article by Rabbi Boteach on Steven Spielberg's movie "Munich".12_David Fleiss20_dfleiss@PIPELINE.COM30_Fri, 6 Jan 2006 13:16:53 -0500408_us-ascii Like Sharon, I found myself disagreeing with most of Boteach's conclusions -- but I think his characterization of the less-than-tepid response of the German government to the kidnapping and murder of the Israeli athletes is spot on. I'm a little surprised that he didn't criticize the International Olympic Committee for their inhuman decision to continue the games as if nothing had happened. [...] 12571 72 22_Re: Histadrut question0_13_JLCAA@AOL.COM28_Fri, 6 Jan 2006 13:19:53 EST596_US-ASCII The current director of International Affairs for the Histadrut is Nawaf Musalah (sp?). I have met a good many Arabs who hold posiitons of importance in the Histadrut. That said comments about sexism and discrimination ring true to the extent that these are problems that reflect Israeli society as whole. It would be nice to think the Histadrut was a leader here rather then a follower of societal trends, but to coin a phrase, that's the way it is. Regarding the failure of the Histadrut to organize workers- well its a whole other discussion. Basically, I had this argument with [...] 12644 324 82_Re: Fw: Interesting article by Rabbi Boteach on Steven Spielberg's movie "Munich".0_26_Sharon_Gates@LONGBEACH.GOV30_Fri, 6 Jan 2006 10:39:17 -0800390_us-ascii Sue- There are lots of "important" films that I don't see; I seldom go to movies at all. I said I had nothing to say about the incident, which is quite different from saying I don't know much about it. And I know the world isn't all "flowers and sugar" regardless of how many movies I don't see or how much TV I don't watch. There is reality that has little to do with media. [...] 12969 592 82_Re: Fw: Interesting article by Rabbi Boteach on Steven Spielberg's movie "Munich".11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@SOCAL.RR.COM30_Fri, 6 Jan 2006 10:44:07 -0800382_iso-8859-1 Sharon

I don't think there would be many to disagree with your letter. Killing terrorists (or even defending against them) does not solve the problem. Absent any apparent easy or difficult solutions at the moment, are you saying that they shouldn't be defended against? Are you saying they shouldn't be killed? Should the Munich killers have been left alone? [...] 13562 26 82_Re: Fw: Interesting article by Rabbi Boteach on Steven Spielberg's movie "Munich".11_David Ferri26_david-ferri@WORDMASTER.COM30_Fri, 6 Jan 2006 12:31:36 -0600554_us-ascii At 10:09 -0800 1/6/06, Sue Liberman wrote: >It is too bad you have no desire to see this important film, and sad that you admit to not knowing much about the incident.....This was the first time in history the world was able to watch "live" the extermination of innocent Jews by terrorists, and the recording of this in "black and white." Spielberg's film captures, I felt, the true angst of our situation as a people- the necessity to - as "Golda" speaks "to compromise our values" in the face of terror, being forced to attack and kill . [...] 13589 173 15_Going to Movies12_Sue Liberman20_fiddlebach@YAHOO.COM30_Fri, 6 Jan 2006 11:06:53 -0800575_iso-8859-1

I always find it offensive when there is a big "brouhaha" over films by people who don't see them. There has been a movement to boycott "Munich" by Jewish groups who haven't even seen the film. The same happened with "The Passion Of Christ"- and yet, (Funny- tonight NBC airs a two-hour premier of a new series with Christ as a "supporting actor")- called "The Book of Daniel"- and it is getting the same kind of brouhaha form NBC affiliates who refuse to air it on religious grounds)...it went on to be a box-office smash, and the "brouhaha" went on [...] 13763 61 82_Re: Fw: Interesting article by Rabbi Boteach on Steven Spielberg's movie "Munich".12_Sue Liberman20_fiddlebach@YAHOO.COM30_Fri, 6 Jan 2006 11:14:47 -0800612_iso-8859-1 She says it in the film....that there are times when a government has to compromise its values..it is also part of the trailer--sue

David Ferri wrote: At 10:09 -0800 1/6/06, Sue Liberman wrote: >It is too bad you have no desire to see this important film, and sad that you admit to not knowing much about the incident.....This was the first time in history the world was able to watch "live" the extermination of innocent Jews by terrorists, and the recording of this in "black and white." Spielberg's film captures, I felt, the true angst of our situation as [...] 13825 332 82_Re: Fw: Interesting article by Rabbi Boteach on Steven Spielberg's movie "Munich".0_26_Sharon_Gates@LONGBEACH.GOV30_Fri, 6 Jan 2006 11:36:55 -0800450_us-ascii You're kidding, right? Surely even you (Steve) can see that there are gradations between "just killing the terrorists" and "leaving them alone." The world may not be all flowers and sugar, but neither is it black and white.

Sharon









Steve Klein Sent by: Habonim Dror Alumni Virtual Machaneh 01/06/2006 10:44 AM Please respond to Steve Klein [...] 14158 50 82_Re: Fw: Interesting article by Rabbi Boteach on Steven Spielberg's movie "Munich".0_23_rdsmith1957@COMCAST.NET30_Fri, 6 Jan 2006 19:49:24 +0000563_- I have no problem with the 'good' rabbi referring to the German rescue attempt as inept, the movie "Three Days in September" proves that, though the results seemed to have proved that back in '72. His implication that the German reaction was so bad because the victims were Jewish is harder to prove and I would like to see someone try. The German anti-terrorist responce was poor, as most country's would have been at the time, because they had almost no experience. His comments to the effect that for a country so good at killing Jews it is "funny" how [...] 14209 148 82_Re: Fw: Interesting article by Rabbi Boteach on Steven Spielberg's movie "Munich".11_David Ferri26_david-ferri@WORDMASTER.COM30_Fri, 6 Jan 2006 14:05:56 -0600603_us-ascii Saw the movie, heard the trailer dozens of times. She never said it IN REAL LIFE.

At 11:14 -0800 1/6/06, Sue Liberman wrote: >She says it in the film....that there are times when a government >has to compromise its values..it is also part of the trailer--sue > >David Ferri wrote: > >At 10:09 -0800 1/6/06, Sue Liberman wrote: >>It is too bad you have no desire to see this important film, and >>sad that you admit to not knowing much about the incident.....This >>was the first time in history the world was able to watch "live" >>the extermination of [...] 14358 343 47_[QUAR] End of Jewish Civilization As We Know It16_Elihu D. Davison25_elihu.davison@VERIZON.NET30_Fri, 6 Jan 2006 19:39:37 -0500798_us-ascii The New York Times ------------------------------------------------------------------------ January 6, 2006



Hold the Mustard, Maybe Forever

By ANDY NEWMAN

The Second Avenue Deli has survived turbulence and tragedy in its 51 years. The decline of the Jewish enclave on the Lower East Side did not kill it. The broad-daylight murder of its beloved founder, Abe Lebewohl, in a robbery in 1996 shut it down but briefly. Dietary fashion campaigns against artery-clogging fare like brick-thick pastrami sandwiches and fat-saturated potato latkes seemed only to make the lines of defiant fans longer. [...] 14702 144 18_Munich & terrorism16_Elihu D. Davison25_elihu.davison@VERIZON.NET30_Sat, 7 Jan 2006 11:48:12 -0500480_us-ascii In Habonet 2006-5, Sharon Gates writes

> a more effective course would be to address the root causes of terrorism

I suppose that in a perfect world, this would be all well-and-good. Regrettably the world isn't perfect. More disturbingly, the so-called "root causes" which Sharon proposes to address are issues of ideological motivation. I presume, by extension, that Sharon would suggest addressing these so-called root causes by inter-group dialogue. [...] 14847 28 22_Symantec Mail Security16_Elihu D. Davison25_elihu.davison@VERIZON.NET30_Sat, 7 Jan 2006 12:05:13 -0500445_ISO-8859-1 The email with the subject heading

> Symantec Mail Security detected prohibited content in a message sent > from your address (SYM:25281633654137741319)

is generated by the Takam listserve computer in Israel in response to every submission made to Habonet. Apparently Takam receives Habonet as individual submissions rather than in digest fashion which is why we each, individually, receive this notice from Takam. [...] 14876 149 22_Re: Munich & terrorism12_Sue Liberman20_fiddlebach@YAHOO.COM30_Sat, 7 Jan 2006 09:38:08 -0800600_iso-8859-1 Thank you Elihu for your incisive analysis of the problem. Basically, you are saying that until Islam can change its "weltanschaung"- the only way to deal with the zealots is to "whack" them---While I am not taking this lightly, I have felt this way for a long time, that there is no way to hold a "dialogue" with someone sitting opposite you who wants you dead. Israel, and other wetsern countries, are basically held hostage in this, and I believe that the small steps we are taking culturally ( integrated schools, cultural programs ie the computer classes with Palestinian youth, [...] 15026 50 26_Re: Symantec Mail Security11_Noam Stopak21_nstopak@STARPOWER.NET30_Sat, 7 Jan 2006 13:01:37 -0500694_iso-8859-1 I've tried to contact them via email, but alas, all I get is the same response you note below.

Noam

----- Original Message ----- From: "Elihu D. Davison" To: Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2006 12:05 PM Subject: Symantec Mail Security



> The email with the subject heading > >> Symantec Mail Security detected prohibited content in a message sent from >> your address (SYM:25281633654137741319) > > is generated by the Takam listserve computer in Israel in response to > every submission made to Habonet. Apparently Takam receives Habonet as > individual submissions rather than in digest fashion which [...] 15077 1090 19_Re: answer to aliya13_Pearl Skolnik25_pskolnik@NETVISION.NET.IL30_Sat, 7 Jan 2006 21:17:59 +0200506_iso-8859-1 I checked the letter again and found that I stopped reading at what looked like the end of the letter and on the second reading found there was more that I had missed the first time. I believe I wrote you this in my second letter. There is no where in any of my letters that I write that I am not ready to give these people a chance. I am on the Kulanu list because I am interested in learning more about these people and their connection to judaism. I am ready to say that the many that I [...] 16168 41 10_US Jew Pop0_23_rdsmith1957@COMCAST.NET30_Sat, 7 Jan 2006 19:45:58 +0000433_- http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/US-Israel/usjewpop.html

As of 2001 the Jewish population of the US - 6,155,000

------------------------------------------------------------------------- The HABONET mailing list is hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org, a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/

16210 50 29_A winter Shabbat in Jerusalem12_amnon hadary22_gershon-keileh@013.NET30_Sat, 7 Jan 2006 22:10:10 +0200605_us-ascii The Shabbat started out balmy. True prophets of old used to warn Jerusalemites not to listen to the false prophets. Weather forecasters called for stormy conditions with strong country wide rains starting at noon. Wrong! They didn't start till late in the afternoon. I took a chance and walked to Mevakshei Derech the synagogue I attend but to whose God I don't subscribe. But good agnostic that I am I took a folded raincoat, too. The synagogue is on Agnon Boulevard. Agnon is actually a continuation of Palmach Street. Jerusalem's statutory committee on street names has a warped sense of [...] 16261 69 26_Re: Symantec Mail Security13_Yuval Warshai21_warshai@SBCGLOBAL.NET30_Sat, 7 Jan 2006 17:40:42 -0500646_iso-8859-1 Elihu,

Thanks for the suggestions. The problem is we can't really figure out how this adress (Administrator@TAKAM.CO.IL) is receiving any Habonet messages at all!! I can assure you that this address is not among the recipients of the current distribution list. Moreover, there is no email address currently subscribed to Habonet located in any domain that is even close to the domain "TAKAM.CO.IL". At least not in name. Maybe one of the email addresses that belongs to other Israeli domains (such as "netvision.net.il", for example, which is a very common Israeli domain on the list) is a spoof./illegitimate address that [...] 16331 55 14_Re: US Jew Pop0_17_Smfgrappa@AOL.COM28_Sat, 7 Jan 2006 18:40:27 EST472_US-ASCII Richard

Thank you for the population statistics. I wondered where the other correspondent got hers. The 800 Jews of Montana are hanging in there.

Sam

------------------------------------------------------------------------- The HABONET mailing list is hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org, a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 16387 91 14_Re: US Jew Pop11_Noam Stopak21_nstopak@STARPOWER.NET30_Sat, 7 Jan 2006 20:32:10 -0500392_iso-8859-1 Movin' to Montana soon. Gonna be a dental floss tycoon. Yes I am. ----- Original Message ----- From: Smfgrappa@AOL.COM To: HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2006 6:40 PM Subject: Re: US Jew Pop



Richard

Thank you for the population statistics. I wondered where the other correspondent got hers. The 800 Jews of Montana are hanging in there. [...] 16479 80 26_Re: Symantec Mail Security12_Dave Edelman18_dedelman@INAME.COM30_Sat, 7 Jan 2006 20:41:09 -0500355_us-ascii I'm sending this message in hope that I will receive one of these messages so that I can examine its internet headers.

With my luck, nothing will be bounced :(

On the other hand, if I get a bounce, I might have enough information to offer an explanation for and possibly even a solution to this cyber-poltergeist in our midst. [...] 16560 128 26_Re: Symantec Mail Security14_Paul Fingerman29_paul.fingerman@MINDSPRING.COM30_Sat, 7 Jan 2006 18:06:45 -0800489_us-ascii I checked the domain registrar for Israel (isoc.org.il), and TAKAM.CO.IL is owned as follows:

Registered Holder: Name: United Kibbutz Movement Address: Hayasmin 1 Ramat Efaal 52980 Israel Phone: +972 3 5301460 Fax: +972 3 5346826 Email: ofertak@inter.net.il

Administrative Contact: Handle: OS4133-IL Name: Ofer Schohet Address: 1Hayasmin St. Ramat Efaal 52960 Israel Phone: +972 3 5301460 Fax: +972 3 5346826 Email: ofertak@inter.net.il Last Update: 19-12-2002 [...] 16689 80 14_Re: US Jew Pop0_23_rdsmith1957@COMCAST.NET30_Sun, 8 Jan 2006 02:27:10 +0000402_- I presume all the Jews in Montana are the rabbis supervising the killing of cattle.

-------------- Original message -------------- From: Noam Stopak

Movin' to Montana soon. Gonna be a dental floss tycoon. Yes I am. ----- Original Message ----- From: Smfgrappa@AOL.COM To: HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2006 6:40 PM Subject: Re: US Jew Pop [...] 16770 65 14_Re: US Jew Pop0_17_Smfgrappa@AOL.COM28_Sat, 7 Jan 2006 22:20:05 EST394_US-ASCII Referring to the Jews of Montana, I happen to know one. His name is Shlomo (Sheldon) Sinclair. He was raised in Glasgow Montana in the Eastern part of the state. He made Aliyah to Gesher Haziv many moons ago, married Nomi Sinclair and had to children Ron and Rina. His Montana drawl was famous all over Gesher Haziv especially when he went to call his children Ron, Rina Habaita" [...] 16836 106 23_guesstimate: US Jew Pop13_Pearl Skolnik25_pskolnik@NETVISION.NET.IL30_Sun, 8 Jan 2006 05:26:51 +0200533_iso-8859-1 There was no census made of the Jewish population and this is a guess estimate. It is the highest figure I have ever seen, and does not come anywhere near any of the other estimates (which are lower) that I have often seen quoted on the subject. question begs asking: on what basis do they come up with such a number? These numbers should only be so! I would love to be wrong on the estimates I have quoted. It just proves, in my opinion, that the Jewish population has not grown in the last 60 years at all, despite [...] 16943 91 27_Re: guesstimate: US Jew Pop0_23_rdsmith1957@COMCAST.NET30_Sun, 8 Jan 2006 03:54:31 +0000612_- Well poor and educated people have more children so we could stop sending Jewish children to school. Just brainstorming here.

-------------- Original message -------------- From: Pearl Skolnik

There was no census made of the Jewish population and this is a guess estimate. It is the highest figure I have ever seen, and does not come anywhere near any of the other estimates (which are lower) that I have often seen quoted on the subject. question begs asking: on what basis do they come up with such a number? These numbers should only be so! I would love to be [...] 17035 65 14_Re: US Jew Pop11_Judy Gelman16_gelman@EROLS.COM30_Sat, 7 Jan 2006 23:21:04 -0500680_ISO-8859-1 I thought that was North Dakota. Judy

rdsmith1957@COMCAST.NET wrote:

> I presume all the Jews in Montana are the rabbis supervising the > killing of cattle. > > > -------------- Original message -------------- > From: Noam Stopak > Movin' to Montana soon. Gonna be a dental floss tycoon. Yes I am. > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Smfgrappa@AOL.COM > *To:* HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG > *Sent:* Saturday, January 07, 2006 6:40 PM > *Subject:* Re: US Jew Pop > > Richard > > Thank you for the population statistics. I wondered where the > other correspondent got hers. [...] 17101 21 18_automated response11_Cheryl Cook16_cheryl@JESNA.ORG30_Sun, 8 Jan 2006 00:01:29 -0500558_us-ascii Thanks for your email. This email address is no longer active.

If you are trying to reach someone at JESNA, please contact Jenna Corman, jcorman@jesna.org.

If you are trying to reach Cheryl Cook, you can find her at cc112@columbia.edu.

------------------------------------------------------------------------- The HABONET mailing list is hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org, a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 17123 164 26_Re: Symantec Mail Security13_Yuval Warshai21_warshai@SBCGLOBAL.NET30_Sun, 8 Jan 2006 00:20:15 -0500490_iso-8859-1 Thanks a lot, Paul. This is very useful information. I will try to contact all the people below with official requests as the list admin. This should get us closer to eliminating the problem pretty soon, I'd say. I'll keep the list updated on the progress of these contacts. ___ |Y| ^^^ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Fingerman" To: Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2006 9:06 PM Subject: Re: Symantec Mail Security [...] 17288 764 82_Re: Fw: Interesting article by Rabbi Boteach on Steven Spielberg's movie "Munich".12_David Mandel20_dlmandel@PACBELL.NET30_Sun, 8 Jan 2006 00:16:49 -0800593_iso-8859-1 Nothing personal, but Sue's comments confirm exactly what I feared would be a typical reaction to the film, which I saw today. I won't write a full review, but please consider: a.. As far is the history presented is concerned, an uninformed viewer would think the conflict began in Munich. In fact it was preceded by Israeli bombings of refugee camps in Lebanon earlier that year, with many casualties; by the same rejection of Arab (mostly Egyptian) peace initiatives that led it to go to war in 1973; and by "Black September" itself, when Jordan in 1970 violently forced the [...] 18053 39 35_A Balmy Shabbat Stroll in Jerusalem12_amnon hadary22_gershon-keileh@013.NET30_Sun, 8 Jan 2006 11:11:51 +0200605_us-ascii The Shabbat started out balmy. True prophets of old used to warn Jerusalemites not to listen to the false prophets. Weather forecasters called for stormy conditions with strong country wide rains starting at noon. Wrong! They didn't start till late in the afternoon. I took a chance and walked to Mevakshei Derech the synagogue I attend but to whose God I don't subscribe. But good agnostic that I am I took a folded raincoat, too. The synagogue is on Agnon Boulevard. Agnon is actually a continuation of Palmach Street. Jerusalem's statutory committee on street names has a warped sense of [...] 18093 62 34_Fwd: A winter Shabbat in Jerusalem12_amnon hadary22_gershon-keileh@013.NET30_Sun, 8 Jan 2006 11:26:49 +0200635_us-ascii Haverot/im Matayim culpa (mea culpa twice two) I may have clicked the send button twice on this message or perhaps not at all. In any case, this is another try. Amnonmea culpa



>Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2006 22:10:10 +0200 >To: >From: amnon hadary >Subject: A winter Shabbat in Jerusalem > >The Shabbat started out balmy. True prophets of old used to warn >Jerusalemites not to listen to the false prophets. Weather forecasters >called for stormy conditions with strong country wide rains starting at >noon. Wrong! They didn't start till late in the afternoon. I took a >chance and walked [...] 18156 89 27_Re: guesstimate: US Jew Pop0_17_Smfgrappa@AOL.COM28_Sun, 8 Jan 2006 11:20:05 EST440_US-ASCII In a message dated 01/07/2006 10:27:44 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, pskolnik@NETVISION.NET.IL writes:

There was no census made of the Jewish population and this is a guess estimate. It is the highest figure I have ever seen, and does not come anywhere near any of the other estimates (which are lower) that I have often seen quoted on the subject. question begs asking: on what basis do they come up with such a number? [...] 18246 351 82_Re: Fw: Interesting article by Rabbi Boteach on Steven Spielberg's movie "Munich".13_Yuval Warshai21_warshai@SBCGLOBAL.NET30_Sun, 8 Jan 2006 11:33:01 -0500328_iso-8859-1 Very incisive and well written. Very good points all, in my view. Thanks a lot for posting this. ___ |Y| ^^^ ----- Original Message ----- From: David Mandel To: HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2006 3:16 AM Subject: Re: Fw: Interesting article by Rabbi Boteach on Steven Spielberg's movie "Munich". [...] 18598 253 82_Re: Fw: Interesting article by Rabbi Boteach on Steven Spielberg's movie "Munich".12_Sue Liberman20_fiddlebach@YAHOO.COM30_Sun, 8 Jan 2006 10:27:52 -0800584_iso-8859-1 Thank you David for this incisive analysis- but I have a couple of comments- Firslty, I felt that some of the Palestinians were depicted as "nice family members"- precisely noting the family of the the little girl- a doctor, his nice wife, etc Also when the "hit squad" appeared at the safe house, it was obviously meant as a mirror to the Israelis.....Also,please remember this was not produced as a documentary- but as a fictionalized film "inspired by true events." And I welcome all fo the "brouhaha"- and comments, because ot only goes to prove what I said in my [...] 18852 121 23_Another techie question12_Sue Liberman20_fiddlebach@YAHOO.COM30_Sun, 8 Jan 2006 12:03:22 -0800602_iso-8859-1 I use Yahoo, and sometimes email from Habonet goes into my "Bulk Mail" insyead of my regular inbox- Does anyone know why?....sue --- Yuval Warshai wrote:

> Elihu, > > Thanks for the suggestions. The problem is we can't > really figure out how > this adress (Administrator@TAKAM.CO.IL) is receiving > any Habonet messages at > all!! I can assure you that this address is not > among the recipients of the > current distribution list. Moreover, there is no > email address currently > subscribed to Habonet located in any domain that is > even close to the [...] 18974 218 26_Re: Symantec Mail Security14_Tova Silverman26_tovasilverman@NETSCAPE.NET30_Sun, 8 Jan 2006 16:16:35 -0500631_iso-8859-1 SmartWhois: http://www.all-nettools.com/toolbox

Replies to the request:

SmartWhoIs TAKAM.CO.IL

TAKAM.CO.IL (213.8.99.19)

213.8.99.16 - 213.8.99.23 Neot Tel Aviv D - ADSL send SPAM and ABUSE complaints to abuse@inter.net.il



Ofer Shochat Hayasmin 1 Ramat Efal IL +972-3-5301460 +972-3-5346826

The only additional information is the IP range. However, anyone can use this free service to identify IP addresses by name or get the name, etc. of a service by IP address (reverse lookup). You may also find other useful tools at the same address, for no additional price. [...] 19193 36 27_Re: Another techie question11_Noam Stopak21_nstopak@STARPOWER.NET30_Sun, 8 Jan 2006 16:19:04 -0500569_iso-8859-1 Sue,

Some people (Elihu comes to mind) sometimes mark their email "low priority" which some mail services use to tag bulk email. Perhaps this is the cause.

Noam

----- Original Message ----- From: "Sue Liberman" To: Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2006 3:03 PM Subject: Another techie question



>I use Yahoo, and sometimes email from Habonet goes > into my "Bulk Mail" insyead of my regular inbox- Does > anyone know why?....sue > --- Yuval Warshai wrote: [...] 19230 67 27_Re: Another techie question12_Sue Liberman20_fiddlebach@YAHOO.COM30_Sun, 8 Jan 2006 13:46:47 -0800602_iso-8859-1 It usually happens with people from Israel- Amnon's came that way, as did a coupe of others- it's weird because I think it is random- OK- well, I guess I just ahve to check both--thanks Noam--susie

--- Noam Stopak wrote:

> Sue, > > Some people (Elihu comes to mind) sometimes mark > their email "low priority" > which some mail services use to tag bulk email. > Perhaps this is the cause. > > Noam > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Sue Liberman" > To: > Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2006 3:03 PM > [...] 19298 105 9_Sharonism8_Jon Baum19_jonbaum@SASA.ORG.IL30_Mon, 9 Jan 2006 16:56:12 +0200602_us-ascii I'm not sure that I agree with their conclusions but the analysts at Stratfor sum up Sharon's approach concisely. As always, I hope for the best and expect the worst.

Jon



From Stratfor.com

Ariel Sharon will be woken from his coma on Monday. He might survive his stroke, but if he lives, the consensus is that his brain will be so damaged that it is inconceivable he will ever return to office as Israel's prime minister. Sharon has managed to surprise everyone in the past, but this time it seems likely that the odds are against him. Therefore, the question [...] 19404 777 82_Re: Fw: Interesting article by Rabbi Boteach on Steven Spielberg's movie "Munich".11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@SOCAL.RR.COM30_Mon, 9 Jan 2006 10:21:32 -0800368_iso-8859-1

on Steven Spielberg's movie "Munich". Sharon Thank you for responding to my questions. I am hoping this will open a productive dialogue of ideas.

It was about the gradations I was enquiring! What are some of the possibly-effective ideas between those two extremes? With the situation as dismal as it is, any suggestion would be welcome. [...] 20182 415 82_Re: Fw: Interesting article by Rabbi Boteach on Steven Spielberg's movie "Munich".0_26_Sharon_Gates@LONGBEACH.GOV30_Mon, 9 Jan 2006 10:35:22 -0800361_us-ascii I've been posting to Habonet for a couple of years, now, and I'd estimate that a substantial proportion of my postings have addressed suggestions for actions that fall between "kill them all" and "leave them alone." I don't have the time or patience to reiterate them now, but you could check the archives and probably get a pretty good sampling. [...] 20598 101 22_Solutions to terrorism11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@SOCAL.RR.COM30_Mon, 9 Jan 2006 11:00:07 -0800377_iso-8859-1 Sharon wrote: I've been posting to Habonet for a couple of years, now, and I'd estimate that a substantial proportion of my postings have addressed suggestions for actions that fall between "kill them all" and "leave them alone." I don't have the time or patience to reiterate them now, but you could check the archives and probably get a pretty good sampling. [...] 20700 762 56_[QUAR] Fw: Munich is a distortion of truth and morality.11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@SOCAL.RR.COM30_Mon, 9 Jan 2006 09:51:33 -0800375_iso-8859-1

I know that this subject has been beaten to death by now, but this letter, in my opinion, tells it all in the best way I have seen 'til now. If you already "oversoaked", skip it.

Steve



Subject: Fw: Munich is a distortion of truth and morality.









Munich is a distortion of truth and morality. [...] 21463 175 44_[QUAR] Fwd: Preaching to the Choir- "Munich"12_Sue Liberman20_fiddlebach@YAHOO.COM30_Mon, 9 Jan 2006 12:03:32 -0800504_iso-8859-1



Note: forwarded message attached.



--------------------------------- Yahoo! Photos Showcase holiday pictures in hardcover Photo Books. You design it and well bind it!

------------------------------------------------------------------------- The HABONET mailing list is hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org, a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ 21639 810 51_Re: Green Zionist Alliance - World Zionist Congress12_Jessica Bonn21_jessicab@BEZEQINT.NET30_Mon, 9 Jan 2006 23:22:03 +0200655_ISO-8859-1 It was just FYI - part of the democratic process. Thanks for the info. Jessie ----- Original Message ----- From: kbob24@AOL.COM To: HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2006 6:03 PM Subject: Re: Green Zionist Alliance - World Zionist Congress



Aliya:

As I am not intimately involved with the nuts and bolts of the campaign, immediately below is the answer to your question from Jamie Levin, Ameinu exec director, Ken ------ "Paper ballots were sent in groups. If people do not receive them in the next 2 weeks they should contact the AZM hotline at 1(888)657-8850. If people registered electronically email [...] 22450 145 22_Re: Munich & terrorism0_26_Sharon_Gates@LONGBEACH.GOV30_Mon, 9 Jan 2006 17:00:55 -0800497_us-ascii OK, we can't address the root causes; we can't kill all the perpetrators; we can't adequately defend every potential target. So, Elihu, your recommendation would be...?

Sharon









"Elihu D. Davison" Sent by: Habonim Dror Alumni Virtual Machaneh 01/07/2006 08:48 AM Please respond to Habonim Dror Alumni Virtual Machaneh



To: HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG cc: Subject: Munich & terrorism [...] 22596 25 11_Root Causes28_Michal and Efraim Perlmutter24_habesor@NETVISION.NET.IL31_Tue, 10 Jan 2006 08:47:20 +0200520_iso-8859-1 To Sharon Gates,

You have mentioned root causes several times in your messages to Habonet. What, in your opinion, are the root causes of the Arab-Israeli and Palestinian-Israeli conflicts?

Efraim

------------------------------------------------------------------------- The HABONET mailing list is hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org, a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 22622 92 64_Re: Hatikvah Slate vs. the green, blue and purple Zionist Slates15_Steven Weinberg19_chaversteve@MAC.COM31_Tue, 10 Jan 2006 02:18:27 -0500533_US-ASCII On Jan 10, 2006, at 12:00 AM, HABONET automatic digest system wrote:

> I am sure many of us can indentify with the Green Zionist > Alliance's = > views and support their activites in Israel. There are even Habonim = > alumni involved with this group. I would urge you all to indeed > register = > for the election before the January 15 deadline but NOT to vote for > the = > Green Alliance. As I have previously posted, I hope all of you will = > sincerely consider investing $7 to register for the election and [...] 22715 154 24_Eloquent piece on Sharon19_Aliya Cheskis-Cotel13_sc523@AOL.COM31_Tue, 10 Jan 2006 02:58:13 -0500 22870 58 31_A winter Shabbat in Jerusalem 212_amnon hadary22_gershon-keileh@013.NET31_Tue, 10 Jan 2006 23:07:51 +0200566_us-ascii haverim/ot The first installment ended with my meeting Ruti and Avi Ravitzky Orthodox people who asked me for news of Arik Sharon's status because they don't turn on the radio on Shabbat. I was pleased to see them because I like them as people and admire their work which I've tapped into. Ruth Ravitzky (ed.), Reading from Genesis: Israeli Women Write about the Women of the Book of Genesis is a feminist literary treasure trove. I asked her for permission to use some of the material in my book and she answered, yes if you translate it. Avi is that [...] 22929 75 23_American Left and Jihad11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@SOCAL.RR.COM31_Tue, 10 Jan 2006 14:17:44 -0800605_iso-8859-1 If you hate my guts and detest the articles I choose to send, PLEASE do not open this one!

Happy 2006.

Steve



Lynne Stewart, Jihadi Lawyer by Sharon Chadha Middle East Quarterly Winter 2006 http://www.meforum.org/article/887

A federal court will soon sentence

------------------------------------------------------------------------- The HABONET mailing list is hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org, a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 23005 155 7_HaKotel11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@SOCAL.RR.COM31_Tue, 10 Jan 2006 14:31:00 -0800526_iso-8859-1 Message

For those who may have missed this somehow:



Jerusalem,

A female CNN journalist heard about a very old Jewish man who had been going to the Western Wall to pray, twice a day, everyday, for a long, long time. So she went to check it out.

She went to the Western Wall and there he was walking slowly up to the holy site. She watched him pray and after about 45 minutes, when he turned to leave, using a cane in a very slow fashion, she approached him for an interview. [...] 23161 72 35_Re: A winter Shabbat in Jerusalem 20_13_JLCAA@AOL.COM29_Tue, 10 Jan 2006 21:08:27 EST519_US-ASCII In a message dated 1/10/06 4:05:44 PM Eastern Standard Time, gershon-keileh@013.NET writes:



> if you sit in a certain Parisian sidewalk > cafe, you will eventually see everyone you've ever known it applies > even more to almost any Jerusalem street on Shabbat. >

When I worked at the sochnut in Jerusalem we used to say that if you sat on the metal rail up the street from the Falafel King on Melech George, sooner or later everyone you've ever known will pass by - and usually did! [...] 23234 309 12_Oz on Sharon13_Yuval Warshai21_warshai@SBCGLOBAL.NET31_Tue, 10 Jan 2006 23:09:38 -0500573_iso-8859-1 Amos Oz's fresh view on any subject is always worth a read, in my view. I have found the piece below, which is actually pretty short, one of the most honest and insightful on Ariel Sharon's (and Israel's by implication) current predicament. I also recommend a piece by Uri Avnery entitled "A Napoleon, Made in Israel." But that piece, even though undoubtedly very insightful too, is a little longer and a little more biased than the one below, in my view again. If there is interest in it I can always forward it too, either to individuals requesting it or [...] 23544 83 35_Re: A winter Shabbat in Jerusalem 212_Sue Liberman20_fiddlebach@YAHOO.COM31_Tue, 10 Jan 2006 22:24:53 -0800558_iso-8859-1 People say the same thing about walking on Melrose in LA- but obviously it deosn't have the same spiritual significance!- I once was in Jerusalem and was supposed to be at a music conference- I cut it and was walking around Ben Yehudah when I bumped into Ziggy from Houston. Ziggy was with his wife, and was a suvivor of Auschwitz. He is standing against the fence in stipes on the day they were liberated in the famous picture.....Anyway- we literally bumped into each other and I had known him and his wife from work at the JCC in Houston. [...] 23628 119 35_Re: A winter Shabbat in Jerusalem 212_Jessica Bonn21_jessicab@BEZEQINT.NET31_Wed, 11 Jan 2006 10:46:37 +0200535_iso-8859-1 About 15 years ago I was on the midrachov and ran into a tall Beligian man named Leo, a linguist whose mother tonge is a dialect spoken only in his village of less than 10,000. I originally met him when he was a graduate student in the US... and what was he doing in Jerusalem? Turns out he was a linguist, and on his way to meet a certain Professor Polotsky in Rehavia. He took me along - the wizened fellow and his zuglomorphically wife served us tea and we (well, they) talked about the origin of the word 'borekas' [...] 23748 132 35_Re: A winter Shabbat in Jerusalem 20_26_Sharon_Gates@LONGBEACH.GOV31_Wed, 11 Jan 2006 08:49:26 -0800473_us-ascii OK, I give up. What does zuglomorphically mean?

Sharon









Jessica Bonn Sent by: Habonim Dror Alumni Virtual Machaneh 01/11/2006 12:46 AM Please respond to Habonim Dror Alumni Virtual Machaneh



To: HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG cc: Subject: Re: A winter Shabbat in Jerusalem 2



About 15 years ago I was on the midrachov and ran into a tall Beligian man [...] 23881 323 16_Re: Oz on Sharon0_26_Sharon_Gates@LONGBEACH.GOV31_Wed, 11 Jan 2006 09:00:33 -0800478_iso-8859-1 Once again, Oz beautifully articulates my vague and inchoate thoughts.

Yuval-please either post the link to the Avnery piece, or e-mail it directly to me. Thanks, Sharon









Yuval Warshai Sent by: Habonim Dror Alumni Virtual Machaneh 01/10/2006 08:09 PM Please respond to Habonim Dror Alumni Virtual Machaneh



To: HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG cc: Subject: Oz on Sharon [...] 24205 411 16_Re: Oz on Sharon8_Jon Baum19_jonbaum@SASA.ORG.IL31_Wed, 11 Jan 2006 19:20:18 +0200681_us-ascii Yuval, please post the Avnery piece.

Jon

-----Original Message----- From: Habonim Dror Alumni Virtual Machaneh [mailto:HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG] On Behalf Of Yuval Warshai Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2006 6:10 AM To: HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG Subject: Oz on Sharon



Amos Oz's fresh view on any subject is always worth a read, in my view. I have found the piece below, which is actually pretty short, one of the most honest and insightful on Ariel Sharon's (and Israel's by implication) current predicament. I also recommend a piece by Uri Avnery entitled "A Napoleon, Made in Israel." But that piece, even though undoubtedly very insightful too, is [...] 24617 241 35_Re: A winter Shabbat in Jerusalem 212_Jessica Bonn21_jessicab@BEZEQINT.NET31_Wed, 11 Jan 2006 21:55:09 +0200406_ISO-8859-1 Zuglomorphosis - the process by which two people in an intimate relationship over time begin to look alike (lovers, spouses, person and dog, etc.) This word doesn't appear in the glossary of 'Arise and Build'? jessie ----- Original Message ----- From: Sharon_Gates@LONGBEACH.GOV To: HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2006 6:49 PM Subject: Re: A winter Shabbat in Jerusalem 2 [...] 24859 786 24_Avnery's essay on Sharon13_Yuval Warshai21_warshai@SBCGLOBAL.NET31_Wed, 11 Jan 2006 15:48:07 -0500604_iso-8859-1 Upon Sharon's and Jon's request here is Avnery's piece. I found it at

http://www.geocities.com/toi_billboard/avnery_napoleon.htm

even though I'm pretty sure this is not the original site where it was posted.

I want to make a couple of comments on it too. When old Uri writes below that:

"The eagerness with which so many good people on the left embraced the "Sharon Legacy" does not show their grasp of his plans, but rather their own longing for peace. They long with all their heart for a strong leader, who has the will and the ability to end the conflict. [...] 25646 958 35_[QUAR] RE: Avnery's essay on Sharon8_Jon Baum19_jonbaum@SASA.ORG.IL31_Wed, 11 Jan 2006 23:06:49 +0200402_us-ascii "Old Uri's" problem with the withdrawal is that it was the "Bulldozer" that pulled it off and not the Left. But history is full of ironies. Thanks Yuval.

-----Original Message----- From: Habonim Dror Alumni Virtual Machaneh [mailto:HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG] On Behalf Of Yuval Warshai Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2006 10:48 PM To: HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG Subject: Avnery's essay on Sharon [...] 26605 165 35_Re: A winter Shabbat in Jerusalem 212_Sue Liberman20_fiddlebach@YAHOO.COM31_Wed, 11 Jan 2006 13:49:45 -0800598_iso-8859-1 A great example of "zuglomorphism" are the Schlossbergs of Gesher HaZiv. Not only were thet zuglomorphics, but also anaflomorphics....sue(sie)

Jessica Bonn wrote: About 15 years ago I was on the midrachov and ran into a tall Beligian man named Leo, a linguist whose mother tonge is a dialect spoken only in his village of less than 10,000. I originally met him when he was a graduate student in the US... and what was he doing in Jerusalem? Turns out he was a linguist, and on his way to meet a certain Professor Polotsky in Rehavia. He took me along [...] 26771 103 39_Re: [QUAR] RE: Avnery's essay on Sharon13_Yuval Warshai21_warshai@SBCGLOBAL.NET31_Wed, 11 Jan 2006 17:04:04 -0500485_iso-8859-1 MessageI agree completely with you on this, Jon. I just wish and hope that either the "Bulldozer" will get up and walk again to finish the work he started, or that the ad-hoc centrist coalition he put together before collapsing will still be able to pull it off, for our children's sake in this world. ___ |Y| ^^^ ----- Original Message ----- From: Jon Baum To: HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2006 4:06 PM Subject: [QUAR] RE: Avnery's essay on Sharon [...] 26875 64 38_Re: A winter Shabbat in Jerusalem 2-PS12_Sue Liberman20_fiddlebach@YAHOO.COM31_Wed, 11 Jan 2006 14:12:55 -0800623_iso-8859-1 I meant that lovingly, reagrding the Schlossbergs--I once had a picture of Meir leading his "brood"- D'vroah, and the kids following, walking along the hill by the Chadar Ochel to the Giva in sillhouette against the sun setting in the sea- it was something- but I can't find it after schlepping around the world for forty years....I should have framed it- but alas--the folly of youth.....I am also convinced that our consistent "bumping" into friends and colleagues--no matter where or when-- is no accident, but little opportunites of Fate which wants us to remember and treasure our "connections"--- sue [...] 26940 26 28_Re: Avnery's essay on Sharon12_David Fleiss20_dfleiss@PIPELINE.COM31_Wed, 11 Jan 2006 17:21:59 -0500342_us-ascii >>> I just wish and hope that either the "Bulldozer" will get up and walk again to finish the work he started <<<

What makes you think that Sharon ever intended to "finish the work he started"? Maybe I'm too cynical, but I believe that the withdrawal from Gaza was intended to strengthen the occupation of the West Bank. [...] 26967 64 28_Re: Avnery's essay on Sharon13_Yuval Warshai21_warshai@SBCGLOBAL.NET31_Wed, 11 Jan 2006 17:42:15 -0500342_iso-8859-1 David,

Good questions. I don't think that either Avnery, I, or you (or anyone else in the world, for that matter) can have any real inkling of what the old general had really in mind, or of how he would proceed about what he had in mind. Guys like that seem to by their very nature, I think, pretty much unfathomatble. [...] 27032 118 12_Demographics19_Aliya Cheskis-Cotel13_sc523@AOL.COM31_Thu, 12 Jan 2006 04:24:26 -0500 27151 97 28_Re: Avnery's essay on Sharon12_amnon hadary22_gershon-keileh@013.NET31_Thu, 12 Jan 2006 12:28:51 +0200574_us-ascii Yuval, First of all, yishar koach on posting the Oz and Avinery articles. But; isn't there always a but, I don't share your enthusiasm either for Shimon Peres nor, save the mark, for Hiam Ramon. To say that they are both politicians is to assume that there is a strong or even overriding opportunistic streak in their makeup. Yitzhak Rabin ticked off Peres as a hatran bilti nileh ( a perprtual saboteur.) Still Peres is not a one dimensional man committed exclusively to his career. He is urbane, cultured, widely read - and what is germane to this thread, a [...] 27249 242 60_[QUAR] Truly the end of Jewish civilization as we know it...16_Elihu D. Davison25_elihu.davison@VERIZON.NET31_Thu, 12 Jan 2006 08:42:18 -0500596_us-ascii

The New York Times



------------------------------------------------------------------------ January 11, 2006



If Second Avenue Deli Reopens, It Won't Be Where It Was

By ANDY NEWMAN and COLIN MOYNIHAN

Any lingering hopes that the Second Avenue Deli might reopen sometime soon were carted away yesterday, along with the sign, the awning and much of the kitchen equipment. [...] 27492 187 16_Re: Demographics0_26_Sharon_Gates@LONGBEACH.GOV31_Thu, 12 Jan 2006 09:17:29 -0800397_us-ascii Interesting letter. I'd like to emphasise what Moshe says in his conclusion: the future is ALWAYS beyond the analysis of those who pride themselves on being "realistic." Because "realistic" people are always convinced that a heavier-than-air machine will never fly.

Perhaps you will remember this the next time you dismiss someone (me, for instance) as being a naive dreamer. [...] 27680 67 28_Re: Demographics - For Moshe0_13_JLCAA@AOL.COM29_Thu, 12 Jan 2006 13:01:56 EST387_US-ASCII This does of course raise the question - who is a Jew? By what standards does one judge Jewishness? Is it circumcision? Kashrut? Sense of identity? And because ones ancestors once were Jewish, does that mean you can lay claim to being a member of the tribe? How far back to you go? We may all claim to be descendants of Abraham but are we decendants of Itzchok or Ishmael? [...] 27748 129 28_Re: Demographics - For Moshe8_Jon Baum19_jonbaum@SASA.ORG.IL31_Thu, 12 Jan 2006 21:05:39 +0200650_us-ascii Good points. But what I want to know is: where are we going to put 40 million Ibos?

Jon

-----Original Message----- From: Habonim Dror Alumni Virtual Machaneh [mailto:HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG] On Behalf Of JLCAA@AOL.COM Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2006 8:02 PM To: HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG Subject: Re: Demographics - For Moshe





This does of course raise the question - who is a Jew? By what standards does one judge Jewishness? Is it circumcision? Kashrut? Sense of identity? And because ones ancestors once were Jewish, does that mean you can lay claim to being a member of the tribe? How far back to you go? [...] 27878 126 28_Re: Avnery's essay on Sharon13_Yuval Warshai21_warshai@SBCGLOBAL.NET31_Thu, 12 Jan 2006 18:45:37 -0500530_iso-8859-1 Amnon,

I'm not going to try to defend Ramon here. I think he's young and strong, and he'll be able to speak for himself with whatever he chooses to do over the next years.

As for Shimon, I think it is still a little early to try and summarize his work and his legacy. I actually hope it is waaaay to early for that, meaning that I really hope he can hang in there for a while still, in spite of the fact he's not getting any younger either. But in short, let me just suggest the following idea: when [...] 28005 111 18_Occupied Jerusalem11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@SOCAL.RR.COM31_Thu, 12 Jan 2006 16:00:05 -0800637_iso-8859-1 I would guess (or hope) that the "Occupied Jerusalem" lead line was not a part of the original AP article.

Steve

Subject: "Occupied Jerusalem" by the AP?



This comes from the 'moderate' English language newspaper in the 'moderate' United Arab Emirates Khaleej Times. I note that it is an AP release.

As there is no byline from the author, I would like to know if the original AP report included the opening words "Occupied Jerusalem." It should be made very clear that Hadassah Hospital at Ein Kerem in Jerusalem was built after Israel's 1948 War of Independence because the Jordanians [...] 28117 63 16_Warning too late19_Aliya Cheskis-Cotel13_sc523@AOL.COM31_Fri, 13 Jan 2006 04:32:18 -0500 28181 74 20_Re: Warning too late11_Judy Gelman16_gelman@EROLS.COM31_Fri, 13 Jan 2006 07:34:57 -0500576_ISO-8859-1 Actually, that is wrong. Atkins would have no cake and lots and lots and lots of salad and other greens. After the first 2 weeks, other vegetables, fruits and whole grains are gradually added. Judy

Aliya Cheskis-Cotel wrote:

> Dear Chevreh, > I just came across this release that was written in a vegetarian blog > after Sharon's first stroke. It makes me really sad when I read about > health situations that could have been corrected if one had only read > some literature or followed a few suggestions about change. > > Aliya > > P.S. I think [...] 28256 21 11_Dirty Harry8_Jon Baum19_jonbaum@SASA.ORG.IL31_Fri, 13 Jan 2006 17:37:12 +0200480_us-ascii This guy must have the worst job in the UK (although the pay's pretty good):

http://tinyurl.com/3ds6d

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To unsubscribe email: HABONET-unsubscribe-request@SHAMASH.ORG 28278 37 18_election confusion17_Sheldon and Heidi21_shelheid@ACTCOM.CO.IL31_Sat, 14 Jan 2006 13:09:23 +0200583_us-ascii Yuval's piece about Peres reminded me about the upcoming elections. Since Peres is totally unelectable (I think the last election he won was in the tzofim or something), he is irrelevant. I have been feeling very confused about the elections - is there anyone there to vote for? (Amir Peretz is a bafoon in my opinion - and this comes from someone who would directly benefit from milk subsidies - twice! To paraphrase CLinton (?) it;s about the security, stupid) So today my pessimistic idea is to vote for whoever is most likely to take out the Iranian reactor. After [...] 28316 129 22_Re: election confusion0_14_kbob24@AOL.COM31_Sat, 14 Jan 2006 09:22:23 -0500546_us-ascii I'll share my $.02 worth on Heidi's Israeli election question.

1 - Peres is indeed unelectable as a Prime Minister, but since he is not a leading a list this time, that is not an important question. According to the polls and the actions of the Olmert, you are incorrect that he is irrelevant. The polls showed the opposite - he is a true asset to Kadima (I personally was surprised to see the impact he has had) and Olmert responded by putting him second on the Kadima list. You don't have to like him but I am just stating [...] 28446 70 22_Re: election confusion8_Jon Baum19_jonbaum@SASA.ORG.IL31_Sat, 14 Jan 2006 17:35:15 +0200422_us-ascii Heidi, Peres is important to Kadima because with him high up on the list - but not leading it - people who might, under "normal circumstances," vote for Labor but can't stomach Amir Peretz can now vote for Kadima with a clean conscience: if Shimon Peres went over to them, why shouldn't I? That and Peres's unwavering nose for power. Where are the chances better for him to get a ministry again? No contest. [...] 28517 117 22_Re: election confusion12_amnon hadary22_gershon-keileh@013.NET31_Sat, 14 Jan 2006 19:19:09 +0200593_us-ascii Ken; You certainly give good value for $.02. Three well presented paragraphs when you're on your way to Shabbat services, not bad.

Shavuah tov

Amnon

At 16:22 14/01/2006, you wrote: >I'll share my $.02 worth on Heidi's Israeli election question. > >1 - Peres is indeed unelectable as a Prime Minister, but since he is not a >leading a list this time, that is not an important question. According to >the polls and the actions of the Olmert, you are incorrect that he is >irrelevant. The polls showed the opposite - he is a true asset to Kadima >(I personally [...] 28635 386 22_Re: election confusion13_Yuval Warshai21_warshai@SBCGLOBAL.NET31_Sat, 14 Jan 2006 12:17:33 -0500604_iso-8859-1 Interesting. Heidi's original message never got to my inbox (not even to my spam box). I've never seen that happen before, but I guess it is possible, as this case proves. I only saw it through Ken's reply.

In any case, in straightforward electoral calculations, I agree with Ken's assessments. As far as I am concerned, Bibi's election as prime minister is going to be near catastrophic. I think we are really discussing here the long term viability of the state of Israel as a separate, independent "Jewsih" state. All this talk about Iran's nuclear threat to Israel is starting [...] 29022 301 40_[QUAR] The World According to JJ... Amen16_Elihu D. Davison25_elihu.davison@VERIZON.NET31_Sat, 14 Jan 2006 18:52:59 -0500477_ISO-8859-1

Forward Logo Founded in 1897-Published in New York

Deli Down By January 13, 2006

The closing of the Second Avenue Deli, the landmark Lower East Side kosher eatery, has all the classic elements of a modern-day Jewish cultural crisis: The struggle for historical memory. The quest for generational continuity. The never-ending battle for control of the land on which we stand. And, of course, the search for a truly great pastrami sandwich. [...] 29324 96 44_Re: [QUAR] The World According to JJ... Amen12_amnon hadary22_gershon-keileh@013.NET31_Sun, 15 Jan 2006 08:38:01 +0200298_iso-8859-1 Elihu This is the second article you've sent me on the Second Ave Deli. Personally I liked the one from the Forward better than the Times. I see that the topic is close to your heart - I hope not to your cholesterol count. Thanks for keeping me in the loop (nah, that's in Chicago) [...] 29421 136 22_Gesher Haziv Drug Ring15_Nechemia Meyers23_meyers@NETVISION.NET.IL31_Sun, 15 Jan 2006 09:00:30 +0200624_windows-1255 Shalom Chaverim,

I was surprised at the fact that--so far as I know--no one saw fit to comment on the Gersher Haziv drug ring. Here is my comment, sent out as a column to a number of papers.

Nechemia Meyers







Drug Ring Shatters Dream

Nechemia Meyers



When I heard that a half-dozen members of Kibbutz Gesher Haziv had been arrested for operating a drug ring, it was almost as if someone had informed me that my sister was a prostitute. As a member of Habonim in the United States, that particular kibbutz was a symbol of the Zionist ideals I [...] 29558 53 58_Re: HABONET Digest - 13 Jan 2006 to 14 Jan 2006 (#2006-13)22_Jeff (and Evelyn) Abel15_abel@012.NET.IL31_Sun, 15 Jan 2006 09:12:51 +0200528_us-ascii This is a response to Heidi's comments:

Her opinion of Amir Peretz is not shared by the members and major investors of the Stock Exchange to whom he spoke and they, it seems to me, are in a position to judge better than she . In fact I would be interested to know on what she bases her opinion; I have heard him talk over the years and often disagreed with what he says, but never have I found him to be a buffoon - perhaps, however, it is my own limited intectual ability that misleads me. And clearly her [...] 29612 108 26_Re: Gesher Haziv Drug Ring19_Aliya Cheskis-Cotel13_sc523@AOL.COM31_Sun, 15 Jan 2006 02:19:26 -0500 29721 172 24_Some Random Observations28_Michal and Efraim Perlmutter24_habesor@NETVISION.NET.IL31_Sun, 15 Jan 2006 12:32:12 +0200619_iso-8859-1 Iran

President Ahmadinejad of Iran seems to have made a spectacle of himself with his holocaust denial and threats to wipe Israel off the map. There are many possible explanations for this none of which can be confirmed. Perhaps the Iranian president is trying to distract his citizenry from Iranian domestic economic problems. Perhaps he is trying to disarm his international opponents by making all of their actions against the development of the Iranian nuclear option look like activities on behalf of and even directed by the Jews. Perhaps he is a true believer who is simply laying out his [...] 29894 25 28_Re: Some Random Observations14_Holtzer Family20_carmdave@URIM.ORG.IL31_Sun, 15 Jan 2006 16:41:37 +0200400_iso-8859-1 Although I never met Arik, I know that he was very helpful in his role as Minister of Industry when our factory burnt down 18 years ago. Arik paved the way for government loans to allow us to start rebuilding in record time.

David Holtzer Kibbutz Urim PS - Ephraim - remind me never to come into your house with mud on my shoes!!!! Hope to see you Tuesday on the matmid tiyul. [...] 29920 184 39_To Nechemia--Re: Gesher Haziv Drug Ring12_Sue Liberman20_fiddlebach@YAHOO.COM31_Sun, 15 Jan 2006 09:20:28 -0800566_iso-8859-1 Shalom Nechemia!--I was very moved also by your article and comments; personally, I didn't say anyhting about this because I only knew what I read in the papers, and was also in some kind of "shock"--I had emailed a freind who lives there and didn't hear back until a few days ago. The truth is, I fell we're all "guilty" of the perception of Gesher Haziv, and also of Israel, as existing as an ideal, but losing the concept that LIVING is a reality, and life anywhere has its positive nad negattive influences. People are people; we tend to beleive [...] 30105 224 43_Re: To Nechemia--Re: Gesher Haziv Drug Ring11_Judy Gelman16_gelman@EROLS.COM31_Sun, 15 Jan 2006 13:17:08 -0500591_ISO-8859-1 I don't know these people so what I am going to say may sound very harsh to those who do but I will say it anyway.

Whenever someone we know is arrested for something we can't imagine them doing, it is very easy to blame the circumstances. However, not everyone who was in financial straits on Gesher Haziv or any other (former) kibbutz turned to dealing cocaine. The reason this was news was that having chevrei kibbutz invovled in something like this is such a rarity. Privatization has been a wrenching experience and wenching experiences test moral fiber more than [...] 30330 267 43_Re: To Nechemia--Re: Gesher Haziv Drug Ring0_23_rdsmith1957@COMCAST.NET31_Sun, 15 Jan 2006 18:48:17 +0000369_- I don't understand what is so terrible. Dealing cocaine is a business, morally no different that any other business. Being successful at it requires no more greed than being successful at selling cheep plastic items, at which Gesher Haziv could never make a good profit.

-------------- Original message -------------- From: Judy Gelman [...] 30598 136 47_Tell it not in Gath, was Gesher Haziv Drug Ring12_amnon hadary22_gershon-keileh@013.NET31_Sun, 15 Jan 2006 21:33:38 +0200556_us-ascii Nehemia, You will realize that when I write I'm at a loss for words you will appreciate how disturbed I am with your piece Gesher Haziv Drug Ring. So while I'm regrouping I'll tap in to King David's lament over Saul and Jonathan 2 Samuel chapter 1" Thy beauty, O Israel, upon thy high places is slain! How are the mighty fallen! Tell it not in Gath, publish it not in the streets of Ashkelon; lest the daughters of the Philistines rejoice, lest the daughters of the uncircumcised triumph. Ye mountains of Gilboa, let there be no dew nor rain [...] 30735 100 58_Re: HABONET Digest - 13 Jan 2006 to 14 Jan 2006 (#2006-13)13_Yuval Warshai21_warshai@SBCGLOBAL.NET31_Sun, 15 Jan 2006 14:50:44 -0500498_iso-8859-1 Jeff,

I agree with a lot of what you say. I like what you say about Amir Peretz and it gives a lot of hope he'll not be a political disappointment as Mitzna was. (Barak was, in my view, much worse than Mitzna, because beyond being an inept politician, he was also harmful in his mistakes.) It confirms what I think and hope, that he may prove to be one of the outstanding political leaders of the new generation. Heck, you almost convinced me of voting Peretz instead.... ;) [...] 30836 306 43_Re: To Nechemia--Re: Gesher Haziv Drug Ring11_Judy Gelman16_gelman@EROLS.COM31_Sun, 15 Jan 2006 15:08:20 -0500468_ISO-8859-1 Actually, it is quite different for 2 reasons.

First , the product is addictive--which cheap plastic items are not. Because it is addictive, the cocaine trade fosters criminality in some of its customers in a way that cheap plastic items do not. While there may be the individual who steals to pay for something cheap and plastic, this is much more common with cocaine, esp because those who are addicted often become unable to hold other jobs. [...] 31143 355 43_Re: To Nechemia--Re: Gesher Haziv Drug Ring0_23_rdsmith1957@COMCAST.NET31_Sun, 15 Jan 2006 20:23:11 +0000327_- So essentially you are saying it is bad because it is criminal. Ideally things are made criminal because they are bad. As for the addiction part, which I don't necessrily agree with, is also true of many legal enterprices as well, though cheep plastic items, you are correct in pointing out, probably can't be included. [...] 31499 52 43_Re: To Nechemia--Re: Gesher Haziv Drug Ring11_Sylvia Lask14_SMLBOV@AOL.COM29_Sun, 15 Jan 2006 15:41:47 EST569_US-ASCII I too have had many friends at Gesher Aziv thru the years and at one time even considered aliya to Gesher Aziv/ I felt terrible when I heard about the drug thing but I also agree with the person who said.......we feel bad because we believe that Habonim members and especially kibbutzniks are above this. People are people and somewhere along the line these people got caught up in this terrible incident. I would only hope that the whole kibbutz will not be tarred and feathered by the mistakes of a few. Remember also, we are not always responsible for [...] 31552 65 22_Re: election confusion12_Jessica Bonn21_jessicab@BEZEQINT.NET31_Sun, 15 Jan 2006 22:52:01 +0200578_iso-8859-1 Hi Heidi. If you're gonna take potshots at Peretz, at least spell it correctly - buffoon. Why is investment in social priorities in an either-or relationship with security issues? There are so many vectors - no need to be myopic, at least if one accepts Jeff's assertion that "if taking out the Iranian reactor is feasible and necessary it will be attempted by any party in power." Peretz won't get the majority vote anyway, so even if it's 'all about the security stupid,' it's safe to vote Peretz just to show support for a breath of fresh air, tartei mashma. [...] 31618 22 20_test - please ignore21_brian@cooperspace.net21_brian@COOPERSPACE.NET31_Sun, 15 Jan 2006 16:08:50 -0500427_ISO-8859-1 Test.

Ignore, delete, whatever.

--brian

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To unsubscribe email: HABONET-unsubscribe-request@SHAMASH.ORG 31641 36 23_Some one has fixed it??0_23_rdsmith1957@COMCAST.NET31_Sun, 15 Jan 2006 21:31:47 +0000387_- I'm not getting those messages after I send to Habonet anymore, I think I miss 'em.

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31678 252 51_Re: Tell it not in Gath, was Gesher Haziv Drug Ring12_Sue Liberman20_fiddlebach@YAHOO.COM31_Sun, 15 Jan 2006 13:48:38 -0800588_iso-8859-1 Not that I need to, but I must defend Nehemia on the two main issues of your posting; one- I don't think he was "telling tales outside fo school."- Nechemia was describing the feeling many of us had but were too "shy" or unable to express...the shock and pain of havng freinds and fellow "chevre" involved in a heinous crime such as distribution of heroine. No one is claiming they were "users" or addicts...but perhaops as bad- suppliers. Secondly, this was, as even the chevre kibbutz have said in private emails, a result of privitization. Who knows-that's why we have [...] 31931 162 27_Re: Some one has fixed it??13_Yuval Warshai21_warshai@SBCGLOBAL.NET31_Sun, 15 Jan 2006 16:55:40 -0500619_iso-8859-1 Richard,

Following the very usefuk information posted here by Tova Silverman on 1/8/2006, I was able to contact the ISP in Israel that host the TAKAM.CO.IL domain. I was able to finally get to the right department at ZAHAV.NET.IL, which was

Information Security & Abuse Dept. -Internet Zahav

Hadas there was able to put me in contact with Eliezer at TAKAM.CO.IL. After a bit of back and forth, where I had to raise my "tone of voice" a bit on one occasion, Eliezer finally disabled the Symantec Mail Security program at his domain yesterday. This apparently has solved the problem. [...] 32094 144 43_Re: To Nechemia--Re: Gesher Haziv Drug Ring0_13_Mmxmm@AOL.COM29_Sun, 15 Jan 2006 17:04:42 EST721_UTF-8

And if they were dealing marijuana and not cocaine..would anyone feel differently?



<<"Although illegal under Federal law, medical marijuana use has been legal under California law since 1996, when California voters passed Proposition 215, which became known as the Compassionate Use Act of 1996 (‘the Act”). The Act provided no set limits regarding the amount of marijuana patients and their caregivers may possess and/or cultivate. In 2003 the California legislature adopted S.B. 420, which provided statewide guidelines outlining how much medical marijuana patients, and their caregivers may grow and possess. It also established a voluntary medical marijuana patient registry and [...] 32239 395 43_Re: To Nechemia--Re: Gesher Haziv Drug Ring11_Judy Gelman16_gelman@EROLS.COM31_Sun, 15 Jan 2006 19:54:21 -0500379_ISO-8859-1 Whether or not you think cocaine should be criminal, it currently is. And as long as it is criminal, it really is a very bad and dangerous business to be involved with.

These individuals weren't in the news because they were campaigning to legalize the distribution of cocaine. They were in the news because they were distributing it while it was illegal. [...] 32635 56 11_Is it true?11_Noam Stopak21_nstopak@STARPOWER.NET31_Sun, 15 Jan 2006 22:29:20 -0500377_iso-8859-1 The wicked witch is dead?

Kol ha'kavod Yuval!

Noam

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32692 453 26_Re: Gesher Haziv Drug Ring20_Lon & Shelly Ephraim16_cbma@VERIZON.NET31_Sun, 15 Jan 2006 22:49:31 -0500569_US-ASCII There was a good article in the Washington Post Magazine today about meth addiction of the daughter of an upper middle class Jewish family. She was once a lawyer. Her story has a somewhat hopeful ending because her family has resources to pay for all the rehab she needs.

But I work every day with women who can't really do their work well, put 12 spoons of sugar in their coffee while their teeth rot, and let their mothers or whoever is willing raise their kids. The absences from work are unbelievably excessive. Other women at work had to clue [...] 33146 68 31_Fw: Petition Against Divestment11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@SOCAL.RR.COM31_Sun, 15 Jan 2006 23:27:36 -0800538_Windows-1252 For those that believe that voicing an opinion does help: Subject: Petition Against Divestment





http://www.standwithus.com/sign

Steve

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To unsubscribe email: HABONET-unsubscribe-request@SHAMASH.ORG 33215 44 15_Re: Is it true?12_amnon hadary22_gershon-keileh@013.NET31_Mon, 16 Jan 2006 11:16:45 +0200835_us-ascii Yuval, I'm not a second the motion guy but it is a pleasure to add a me too to Noam

At 05:29 16/01/2006, you wrote: >The wicked witch is dead? > >Kol ha'kavod Yuval! > >Noam > >---------- >The HABONET mailing list is hosted by Shamash: The >Jewish Network, a service of Hebrew College, >which offers online courses and an online >MA in Jewish Studies. > >To unsubscribe email >HABONET-unsubscribe-request@SHAMASH.ORG > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Text inserted by Panda Platinum 2005 Internet Security: > >This message has NOT been classified as spam. If it is unsolicited mail >(spam), click on the following [...] 33260 33 51_Re: Tell it not in Gath, was Gesher Haziv Drug Ring12_amnon hadary22_gershon-keileh@013.NET31_Mon, 16 Jan 2006 17:28:30 +0200379_us-ascii Sue, In trying to defend Nechemia

At 23:48 15/01/2006, you wrote: >I don't think he >was "telling tales outside fo school."-



Here is his own introduction



I was surprised at the fact that--so far as I know--no one saw fit to comment on the Gersher Haziv drug ring. Here is my comment, sent out as a column to a number of papers. [...] 33294 71 51_Re: Tell it not in Gath, was Gesher Haziv Drug Ring12_Sue Liberman20_fiddlebach@YAHOO.COM31_Mon, 16 Jan 2006 08:03:17 -0800577_iso-8859-1 Dear Amnon- I suppose your comment could have been taken in two ways-1- he was "telling tales outside fo school"- meaning he was talking from the "outside"- which I don't think is true- Nechemia is one of the Habonet stalkers- and he comments when he feels moved to do so. ("school" meaning our own little "clique")- OR- putting his column out there for everyone to read--If you meant the second- I also feel it isn't pertinent- since - as far as I know-Nechemia's column appears in Jewish papers....Also, as far as I know, the drug bust was "real news" online [...] 33366 293 22_Fw: HEARTWARMING STORY6_Yonina18_yonina@URIM.ORG.IL31_Mon, 16 Jan 2006 06:17:07 +0200539_windows-1255

----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 3:40 PM Subject: HEARTWARMING STORY



The Folded Napkin ..

A Truckers Story

If this doesn't light your fire..your wood is wet!



I try not to be biased, but I had my doubts about hiring Stevie. His placement counselor assured me that he would be a good, reliable busboy. But I had never had a mentally handicapped employee and wasn't sure I wanted one. I wasn't sure how my customers would react to Stevie. [...] 33660 72 77_Check out Urban Legends Reference Pages: Glurge Gallery (Something for Stevie0_14_LHIAM1@AOL.COM29_Mon, 16 Jan 2006 11:39:09 EST270_US-ASCII It is a lovely story it simply isn't true - of course one should never let truth get in the way of a good story - (seems like the author of "A Million Pieces" feels the same way) On the other hand if something sounds too good to be true it probably isn't. [...] 33733 42 26_Re: Fw: HEARTWARMING STORY11_Sylvia Lask14_SMLBOV@AOL.COM29_Mon, 16 Jan 2006 11:42:06 EST501_US-ASCII Thank you for, the beautiful story. Having worked in the field for twenty eight years, I had tears in my eyes when I read your story. I hope Steve is still with you and doing well. Sylvia Lask

------------------------------------------------------------------------- The HABONET mailing list is hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org, a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 33776 59 81_Re: Check out Urban Legends Reference Pages: Glurge Gallery (Something for Stevie12_Sue Liberman20_fiddlebach@YAHOO.COM31_Mon, 16 Jan 2006 13:14:37 -0800488_iso-8859-1 And Hiam- I suppose now you're going to tell us there is no Santa Claus!- Gheeze!!!...Is there NOTHING we can believe in????......Damn that Snopes website!....it's so un-Christian!...sue

LHIAM1@AOL.COM wrote: It is a lovely story it simply isn't true - of course one should never let truth get in the way of a good story - (seems like the author of "A Million Pieces" feels the same way) On the other hand if something sounds too good to be true it probably isn't. [...] 33836 67 22_a little of on context0_15_Emabear@AOL.COM29_Tue, 17 Jan 2006 00:52:04 EST528_US-ASCII I wanted to tell someone the work that was used here about people who live together so long they begin to look like each other but forgot it. Can someone help? Thanks

Also for those of you who remember my daughter Aimee Ginsburg, her first article to be published in English appears in the Jan. 9 issue of The Jerusalem Report. The dateline is Bombay. If you like it please let the editors know. She's hoping to really break into the English press and a few Letters to the Editor always help. Thanks again. [...] 33904 76 15_[BULK] Liberals11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@SOCAL.RR.COM31_Tue, 17 Jan 2006 09:46:16 -0800581_iso-8859-1 I haven't read most of this yet; did not want to hang on to it while it got stale.

Steve



Arab Liberals Argue about America by Barry Rubin Middle East Quarterly Winter 2006 http://www.meforum.org/article/890

Fouad Ajami, the Lebanese-American

------------------------------------------------------------------------- The HABONET mailing list is hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org, a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 33981 42 25_Cell numbers going public11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@MJDS.ORG31_Tue, 17 Jan 2006 14:33:46 -0600494_us-ascii Cell Numbers Going Public

JUST A REMINDER, in a few days from today, cell phone numbers are being released to telemarketing companies and you will start to receive sale calls. YOU WILL BE CHARGED FOR THESE CALLS!

These telemarketers will eat up your free minutes and end up costing you money in the long run. To prevent this, call the following number from your cell phone: 888/382-1222. It is the National DO NOT CALL list. It will only take a minute of your time. [...] 34024 326 77_[QUAR] Check out Urban Legends Reference Pages: Politics (Celling Your Soul )0_14_LHIAM1@AOL.COM29_Tue, 17 Jan 2006 15:47:14 EST559_US-ASCII Roz I am surprised at you - you are usually more adept at sifting the wheat from the chaff.

_Click here: Urban Legends Reference Pages: Politics (Celling Your Soul)_ (http://www.snopes.com/politics/business/cell411.asp)







------------------------------------------------------------------------- The HABONET mailing list is hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org, a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 34351 298 81_Re: [QUAR] Check out Urban Legends Reference Pages: Politics (Celling Your Soul )19_Aliya Cheskis-Cotel13_sc523@AOL.COM31_Wed, 18 Jan 2006 04:20:10 -0500 34650 175 26_Moslem World Today Dec. 3011_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@SOCAL.RR.COM31_Wed, 18 Jan 2006 11:10:17 -0800625_iso-8859-1 Again, I recommend "Muslim World Today", always good for balanced and timely news from the Middle East. Several contributors are Jewish, including Daniel Pipes. There are often Israelis contributiing.

The December issue contains two articles that especially caught my eye.

"Buying Fox News"- Dr. Rachel Ehrenfeld and Alyssa Lappen

I know that some of us watch Fox News, at least occasionally. I liked to watch Fox in order to balance out some of the other news programs, including CNN (which, by the way, were thrown out of Iran yesterday for misquoting the Iranian president's speech*). [...] 34826 48 81_Fw: [QUAR] Check out Urban Legends Reference Pages: Politics (Celling Your Soul )13_Yuval Warshai20_warshy@SBCGLOBAL.NET31_Wed, 18 Jan 2006 15:20:39 -0500498_iso-8859-1 The message below, from Roz Barland in reply to Hiam, had been rejected by the Shamash listserv for a small technical reason. Roz asked me to post it on her behalf. ___ |Y| ^^^Yuval Warshai Habonet list admin.

----- Original Message ----- From: "Roz Barland" To: "Habonim Dror Alumni Virtual Machaneh" Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 5:04 PM Subject: Re: [QUAR] Check out Urban Legends Reference Pages: Politics (Celling Your Soul ) [...] 34875 274 21_A disappointed chaver15_Schwartz Family23_arava_eilat@HOTMAIL.COM31_Thu, 19 Jan 2006 15:18:01 +0200348_windows-1255 This is the third letter I have written on this subject, in my second letter I tried to put forward a positive optimism. The past 2 months I have been out of work because the Mayor of Eilat has seen fit to use my sidewalk observatory as an example to the court that he is fulfilling his job following the court order he received. [...] 35150 362 25_Re: A disappointed chaver8_Jon Baum19_jonbaum@SASA.ORG.IL31_Thu, 19 Jan 2006 16:34:45 +0200401_us-ascii Hi Ethan,

Alright, I just sent an email to the mayor. I hope this works out for you. I guess you haven't found the right person to bribe.

Jon

-----Original Message----- From: Habonim Dror Alumni Virtual Machaneh [mailto:HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG] On Behalf Of Schwartz Family Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2006 3:18 PM To: HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG Subject: A disappointed chaver [...] 35513 56 4_Test8_Jon Baum19_jonbaum@SASA.ORG.IL31_Thu, 19 Jan 2006 19:01:12 +0200379_us-ascii Testing

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To unsubscribe email: HABONET-unsubscribe-request@SHAMASH.ORG 35570 848 25_[QUAR] Fw: The red carpet11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@SOCAL.RR.COM31_Thu, 19 Jan 2006 11:33:58 -0800557_iso-8859-1 Well written and touching.

Steve



----- Original Message ----- From: angela bertz To: Hollywood For Press Assn Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2006 5:37 AM Subject: The red carpet



The last phone call Izzedine al-Masri ever made to his family was to tell them he was spending the night away from home. Izzedine was thousands of miles away from the bright lights of Hollywood and his "tragic" tale was very much the stuff, of what the New York Times would describe as "a taut, ingeniously calculated thriller". [...] 36419 350 49_[QUAR] Fw: Golden Globes Congratulates Murderers!11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@SOCAL.RR.COM31_Thu, 19 Jan 2006 11:39:12 -0800469_iso-8859-1

More of the Golden Globes travesty:

Steve



Subject: Golden Globes Congratulates Murderers!



Editor: I just received this letter from Israel in response to the absolutely insane and insensitive action by the Golden Globes Committee in congratulating the homicide murderers who continue to butcher innocent children all over the world. It appears to this writer that the Golden Globes endorses these atrocities! [...] 36770 70 6_Hiphop11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@SOCAL.RR.COM31_Thu, 19 Jan 2006 11:54:59 -0800540_iso-8859-1 Hit the URL below.

Really cute bit today, with American kids going to Israel on "Birthright" and meeting up with the American hiphopper that made aliya and is becoming a name.

http://jerusalemonline.com

Steve

------------------------------------------------------------------------- The HABONET mailing list is hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org, a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 36841 55 14_eitan schwartz13_Pearl Skolnik25_pskolnik@NETVISION.NET.IL31_Thu, 19 Jan 2006 23:23:12 +0200311_windows-1255 eitan, just saw your letter and wish you to know I sent a letter in Hebrew to mayor and Tourist Minister asking that they allow your observatory to continue functioning. I am sorry to send this through Habonet, but I can not find your address in my list for some reason. Hatzlacha raba, pearl [...] 36897 73 12_Paradise Now0_23_rdsmith1957@COMCAST.NET31_Thu, 19 Jan 2006 22:15:25 +0000606_- I didn't get a chance to see the film but I found it difficult to believe that a film that romantisized suicide bombing won a golden globe award. For a differing view of the film here is the review from the New York Times.



Terrorists Facing Their Moment of Truth By STEPHEN HOLDEN Correction Appended "And what happens next?" a young Palestinian terrorist asks after receiving his instructions for carrying out a suicide bombing in Tel Aviv. "You will be met by two angels," comes the offhand, none too convincing reply in "Paradise Now," a taut, ingeniously calculated thriller that [...] 36971 491 36_Invisible in Hollywood: Jewish women0_15_DebALev@AOL.COM29_Thu, 19 Jan 2006 19:32:14 EST722_US-ASCII







_http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2006/01/16/i nvisible_in_hollywood_jewish_women?mode=PF_ (http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2006/01/16/invisible_in_hollywood_jewish_women ?mode=PF)



Boston Globe Invisible in Hollywood: Jewish women By Gail Dines | January 16, 2006



STEVEN SPIELBERG has done it again. He has managed to make yet another film about Jews that reduces Jewish women to caricatures. Only this time, instead of simpering victims, we are either loyal, hapless wives committed to tortured Jewish men, or kindly grandmothers who run a country but leave the real work to men. [...] 37463 174 40_Re: Invisible in Hollywood: Jewish women12_Sue Liberman20_fiddlebach@YAHOO.COM31_Thu, 19 Jan 2006 16:57:19 -0800539_iso-8859-1 A note about "Prime"- I went to see it with my best friend- who does not avoid arguments. At the end of the film, a woman sitiing in front of us asked what we thought, --she then stated that all Jewish women are bitches!!- Welll- that was allit took to set off Judy- and I was afraid the woman had a gun and would knock both of us off- It was soemthing- she felt all New York Jewish women were just like Streep- and mean and judgemental---and it turned into a screaming match..I am always amazed at the way "entertainment" [...] 37638 524 40_Re: Invisible in Hollywood: Jewish women0_23_rdsmith1957@COMCAST.NET31_Fri, 20 Jan 2006 01:29:17 +0000775_- Two films in which Jewish women are portrayed rather differently are the movie about Abby Hoffman (can't recall the name and I didn't like it much) in which Jeanene Garofallo (sp?) plays his wife and Howard Stern's movie and his wife who is played by I don't know who.

-------------- Original message ---------------------- From: DebALev@AOL.COM > > > > > _http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2006/01/16/i > nvisible_in_hollywood_jewish_women?mode=PF_ > (http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2006/01/16/inv > isible_in_hollywood_jewish_women > ?mode=PF) > > > Boston Globe > Invisible in Hollywood: Jewish women > By Gail Dines | January 16, 2006 > > > STEVEN SPIELBERG has done it again. He has managed [...] 38163 136 40_Re: Invisible in Hollywood: Jewish women8_Jon Baum19_jonbaum@SASA.ORG.IL31_Fri, 20 Jan 2006 10:59:03 +0200309_US-ASCII I haven't seen the film myself but why should a movie about Palestinian terrorists and the Mossad hit team that hunts them down feature women or deal with women's issues? Also, if I'm not mistaken, Golda Meir plays a prominent role in the film. How's that for a good Jewish Woman as role model? [...] 38300 410 25_Re: A disappointed chaver12_Jessica Bonn21_jessicab@BEZEQINT.NET31_Fri, 20 Jan 2006 11:44:16 +0200349_ISO-8859-1 MessageDitto, Ethan. Sent to all 3 addresses (the 3rd is your cc). Someone on this list must have a connection somehwere... C'mon, guys - let's help out this chaver. Shabbat shalom, Jessie ----- Original Message ----- From: Jon Baum To: HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2006 4:34 PM Subject: Re: A disappointed chaver [...] 38711 186 16_Re: Paradise Now6_Martin18_emskol@COMCAST.NET31_Fri, 20 Jan 2006 06:54:39 -0500602_US-ASCII Well, I DID see the film and I have to agree more with the NYTimes (a rare occurrence) review. The movie is subtle, but it does not romanticize suicide bombing but rather speaks against it (albeit quietly). It is extremely well done. It shows Israeli checkpoints as cruel but Israeli people in general as innocent. It shows Palestinians as victims - but equally as much of their own culture as of an Israeli occupation. The ending is a cinematically brilliant refutation of the "instant Paradise" myth. As a psychological thriller, I think that it rivals Hitchcock's best. One leaves the [...] 38898 173 25_Re: A disappointed chaver12_Sue Liberman20_fiddlebach@YAHOO.COM31_Fri, 20 Jan 2006 07:52:14 -0800569_iso-8859-1 I sent a letter otu yesterday using the paper I edit as a "tool"--sue

--- Jessica Bonn wrote:

> MessageDitto, Ethan. Sent to all 3 addresses (the > 3rd is your cc). Someone on this list must have a > connection somehwere... C'mon, guys - let's help out > this chaver. > Shabbat shalom, > Jessie > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jon Baum > To: HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG > Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2006 4:34 PM > Subject: Re: A disappointed chaver > > > Hi Ethan, > > Alright, I just sent an email to the mayor. I [...] 39072 45 40_Re: Invisible in Hollywood: Jewish women0_26_Sharon_Gates@LONGBEACH.GOV31_Fri, 20 Jan 2006 08:43:09 -0800496_us-ascii Sue wrote: best to just go home and read a book

Finally something that Sue and I can agree on!

-Sharon



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To unsubscribe email: HABONET-unsubscribe-request@SHAMASH.ORG 39118 144 26_Fw: QUESTIONS?????????????11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@SOCAL.RR.COM31_Fri, 20 Jan 2006 09:36:28 -0800693_iso-8859-1

----- Original Message ----- From: Steve Klein To: dnforum@dailynews.com Sent: Friday, January 20, 2006 9:34 AM Subject: QUESTIONS?????????????



Dear Editor of Daily News

Today, January 20, you reprinted an article by Steven Erlanger of the New York Times, "Terrorist? Martyr? Suicide bomber's death leaves questions". I read the article thoroughly, quite a few times, looking for the questions this article might leave. The story itself is familiar: A young person is educated by his family, friends, neighborhood and local hate organisation to believe that it is a wonderful and glorious thing to strap on explosives and detonate onesself in the [...] 39263 163 26_Fw: QUESTIONS?????????????11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@SOCAL.RR.COM31_Fri, 20 Jan 2006 09:37:41 -0800759_iso-8859-1

----- Original Message ----- From: Steve Klein To: dnforum@dailynews.com Sent: Friday, January 20, 2006 9:35 AM Subject: Fw: QUESTIONS?????????????





----- Original Message ----- From: Steve Klein To: dnforum@dailynews.com Sent: Friday, January 20, 2006 9:34 AM Subject: QUESTIONS?????????????



Dear Editor of Daily News

Today, January 20, you reprinted an article by Steven Erlanger of the New York Times, "Terrorist? Martyr? Suicide bomber's death leaves questions". I read the article thoroughly, quite a few times, looking for the questions this article might leave. The story itself is familiar: A young person is educated by his family, friends, neighborhood and local hate organisation [...] 39427 143 30_Re: Fw: QUESTIONS?????????????0_26_Sharon_Gates@LONGBEACH.GOV31_Fri, 20 Jan 2006 12:31:12 -0800383_us-ascii Steve, I never thought I'd say this, but this is really well-written. If you would write things like this to Habonet instead of just forwarding other peoples' stuff, you might not get so much flack from people like me.

(Let's see, today I've agreed with Sue and complimented Steve. Must be some weird alignment of the planets. I'd better go check my horoscope.) [...] 39571 218 30_Re: Fw: QUESTIONS?????????????0_23_rdsmith1957@COMCAST.NET31_Fri, 20 Jan 2006 20:57:08 +0000550_- I read the article in question, or at least what I think Steve was talking about. I can't figure out what Steve is complaining about. Perhaps you can tell me.

Into the West Bank Abyss: From Student to Suicide Bomber By STEVEN ERLANGER NABLUS, West Bank, Jan. 19 - A local photographer was the first to tell a shocked Samer Antar that his youngest brother, Sami, was dead. His mother's wails soon followed, rising in pitch to fill the dark staircase, as relatives, mourners and journalists began to arrive, up the steep broken pavement. [...] 39790 503 42_[QUAR] Washington Post - Dissatisfied Jews16_Elihu D. Davison25_elihu.davison@VERIZON.NET31_Fri, 20 Jan 2006 14:35:42 -0500420_ISO-8859-1 washingtonpost.com

Dissatisfied Jews, Christians Share Ideas

By GILLIAN FLACCUS The Associated Press Wednesday, January 18, 2006; 7:54 PM

SIMI VALLEY, Calif. -- Every time Rabbi Dov Gartenberg led the Sabbath service at Congregation Beth Shalom, he would see bored faces among the worshippers and wonder how long he could hold their interest. [...] 40294 120 33_to EitanRe: A disappointed chaver12_Sue Liberman20_fiddlebach@YAHOO.COM31_Sat, 21 Jan 2006 09:51:18 -0800554_iso-8859-1 Shalom Eitan- I sent a leter to the mayor's office using the email you provided and it was returned to me...can you send me the correct address...? sue

--- Schwartz Family wrote:

> This is the third letter I have written on this > subject, in my second letter I tried to put forward > a positive optimism. The past 2 months I have been > out of work because the Mayor of Eilat has seen fit > to use my sidewalk observatory as an example to the > court that he is fulfilling his job following the > [...] 40415 230 30_Re: Fw: QUESTIONS?????????????11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@SOCAL.RR.COM31_Sat, 21 Jan 2006 11:16:59 -0800575_iso-8859-1 Richard The article I read had a different caption, which you either didn't read, or didn't understand. "Questions remain" could only mean that it is difficult to tell if he was a terrorist or a hero. If good people can't figure that one out, what hope is there? The article shows the family educated and encouraged him and his cousins and the next generations to view killing civilians in this manner as a hero's deed. My complaint was, and is, that not only did the article attempt to scrape together sympathy for the grieving family (which sent him out to [...] 40646 341 30_Re: Fw: QUESTIONS?????????????11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@SOCAL.RR.COM31_Sat, 21 Jan 2006 11:22:42 -0800395_iso-8859-1 Sharon

Thank you. I didn't get flack from you this time, but I did get it. Still, your kind words are appreciated.

As a matter of explanation, I forward stuff that express my convictions if I think they have written better than I could possibly have done. Sometimes I forward material that is the opposite of what I feel, if I think it is thought-provoking enough. [...] 40988 47 43_The Boy Wizard is Dead and Buried in Israel0_23_rdsmith1957@COMCAST.NET31_Sat, 21 Jan 2006 20:43:36 +0000581_- TOURISTS FLOCK TO HARRY POTTER'S GRAVE IN ISRAEL The first piece below is from AFP (the French news agency), and the version attached here was carried on "The Mail and Guardian," Africa's first online newspaper. AFP reports that tourists and fans of literary boy wizard Harry Potter are flocking to Harry Potter's grave. The tomb in question belongs to Corporal Harry Potter, a 19-year-old British soldier who is buried in a cemetery close to Tel Aviv. Potter was killed 66 years ago during fighting in the town of Hebron. (Hebron is in the West Bank, and now has a largely [...] 41036 40 30_Re: Fw: QUESTIONS?????????????0_23_rdsmith1957@COMCAST.NET31_Sat, 21 Jan 2006 21:00:51 +0000395_- The article in the actual print version didn't have that caption, and I didn't see it on the on line version either but in either case you directed at least part of your complaint to the reporter who certainly would have nothing to do with either the headline or the picture captions, but couldn't the phrase "questions remain" refer to why he did it rather than what his legacy will be? [...] 41077 81 21_A disappointed chaver15_Schwartz Family23_arava_eilat@HOTMAIL.COM31_Mon, 23 Jan 2006 08:29:11 +0200509_windows-1255

Sue and any one else that may have had the mayors email bounce, the address I have at by blog mayoroffice@eilat.muni.il has a problem and bounces letters sometimes It will recieve most of the time please resend it.

Thanks guys, It's not pretty here for me right now but those who are writing are bringing me some sunshine (I'm an astronomer so maybe it is moonshine), I'll keep ypu updated on what is happening. Maybe I can get some letters rolling from my Washington Chevre. [...] 41159 119 25_Re: A disappointed chaver17_Sheldon and Heidi21_shelheid@ACTCOM.CO.IL31_Mon, 23 Jan 2006 13:39:57 +0200476_us-ascii



No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.14.21/236 - Release Date: 20/01/2006



------------------------------------------------------------------------- The HABONET mailing list is hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org, a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 41279 4169 50_[Fwd: [ShomerNet] Macon L'Madrichei Chutz L'Aretz]11_Judy Gelman16_gelman@EROLS.COM31_Mon, 23 Jan 2006 07:36:00 -0500681_ISO-8859-1 From Shomernet for Bogrei Machon-- Judy Gelman

-------- Original Message -------- Subject: [ShomerNet] Macon L'Madrichei Chutz L'Aretz Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 10:40:51 -0800 (PST) From: Zachary Weinberger Reply-To: ShomerNet@yahoogroups.com To: ShomerNet@yahoogroups.com





Hi All,

I don't know how many of us are bogrei ha Macon L'Madrichei Chutz L'Aretz, but I imagine there are a few. I got on their alumni list a couple of years ago and receive emails several times a year. If any other bogrim are intersted in providing them with your email or other contact information I encourage you to do so. [...] 45449 100 48_Re: [ShomerNet] Macon L'Madrichei Chutz L'Aretz]12_Jessica Bonn21_jessicab@BEZEQINT.NET31_Mon, 23 Jan 2006 16:04:52 +0200698_iso-8859-1 Are you a double agent or something? What are you doing on Shomernet? Did they recruit you when you were on the Machon? Jessie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Judy Gelman" To: Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 2:36 PM Subject: [Fwd: [ShomerNet] Macon L'Madrichei Chutz L'Aretz]



> From Shomernet for Bogrei Machon-- > Judy Gelman > > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: [ShomerNet] Macon L'Madrichei Chutz L'Aretz > Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 10:40:51 -0800 (PST) > From: Zachary Weinberger > Reply-To: ShomerNet@yahoogroups.com > To: ShomerNet@yahoogroups.com > > > > Hi All, > > I don't [...] 45550 117 48_Re: [ShomerNet] Macon L'Madrichei Chutz L'Aretz]11_Judy Gelman16_gelman@EROLS.COM31_Mon, 23 Jan 2006 09:39:37 -0500640_ISO-8859-1 A friend from another list invited me--Shomernet is open to "friends". I never was on Machon. Judy

Jessica Bonn wrote:

> Are you a double agent or something? What are you doing on Shomernet? > Did they recruit you when you were on the Machon? > Jessie > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Judy Gelman" > To: > Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 2:36 PM > Subject: [Fwd: [ShomerNet] Macon L'Madrichei Chutz L'Aretz] > > >> From Shomernet for Bogrei Machon-- >> Judy Gelman >> >> -------- Original Message -------- >> Subject: [ShomerNet] Macon L'Madrichei Chutz L'Aretz >> [...] 45668 56 25_Re: A disappointed chaver12_Sue Liberman20_fiddlebach@YAHOO.COM31_Mon, 23 Jan 2006 07:37:01 -0800572_iso-8859-1 Hi Eitan- I'll re-send it.....keep the faith!- sue

--- Schwartz Family wrote:

> > Sue and any one else that may have had the mayors > email bounce, the address I have at by blog > mayoroffice@eilat.muni.il has a problem and bounces > letters sometimes It will recieve most of the time > please resend it. > > Thanks guys, It's not pretty here for me right now > but those who are writing are bringing me some > sunshine (I'm an astronomer so maybe it is > moonshine), I'll keep ypu updated on what is > happening. > [...] 45725 43 7_Poverty12_amnon hadary22_gershon-keileh@013.NET31_Mon, 23 Jan 2006 18:12:33 +0200593_us-ascii Haverot/im In previous times there was a road map more or less common to all Habonim members altho' we had no collective ideology, heaven forefend. Collective ideology was the preserve of Hashomer Hatzair to our left. The road map we travelled had two lines, call them longitude and latitude (stop this metaphor before it gets out of hand and hurts someone.) One was our Zionism/Judaism and the other was socialism - decidedly lower case s. My impression is that by and large there is still a consensual movement personality but the whole road seems to have curved to the right. [...] 45769 81 25_Re: A disappointed chaver11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@SOCAL.RR.COM31_Mon, 23 Jan 2006 08:27:56 -0800671_iso-8859-1 Eitan

My letter did not bounce.

Good luck on the good fight.

Steve



----- Original Message ----- From: "Sue Liberman" To: Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 7:37 AM Subject: Re: A disappointed chaver



> Hi Eitan- I'll re-send it.....keep the faith!- sue > > --- Schwartz Family wrote: > >> >> Sue and any one else that may have had the mayors >> email bounce, the address I have at by blog >> mayoroffice@eilat.muni.il has a problem and bounces >> letters sometimes It will recieve most of the time >> please resend it. >> >> Thanks guys, [...] 45851 20 64_Are you now or have you ever been a [ShomerNet] or Macon chaver?11_Noam Stopak21_nstopak@STARPOWER.NET31_Mon, 23 Jan 2006 11:29:45 -0500485_- Yeah, yeah, sure Judy. That's what they all say. What would you say if the NSA weren't listening?

:-)

Noam

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To unsubscribe email: HABONET-unsubscribe-request@SHAMASH.ORG 45872 36 11_Re: poverty11_Noam Stopak21_nstopak@STARPOWER.NET31_Mon, 23 Jan 2006 11:45:09 -0500605_- Amnon asked about the movement's position on equality and determination to work for peace. I offer no sweeping generalizations, bur merely two random data points.

One of my recently acquired step-daughters was on Workshop in 2001-2002. The experience which seemed to motivate her the most was a project working for social justice and the environment - helping to build a school using recycled materials. After returning, she worked at Machaneh for a few years but after last summer declared she could not return, as she doesn't feel she is a zionist (not sure if that is upper case or lower [...] 45909 114 27_Fw: miriam lamdan artical 26_Yonina18_yonina@URIM.ORG.IL31_Mon, 23 Jan 2006 06:50:47 +0200514_iso-8859-1

----- Original Message ----- FromSent: Sunday, January 22, 2006 4:19 AM Subject: FW: miriam lamdan article 2





-----Original Message----- From: Ilanit S. Habot [mailto:ilanitshabot@gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2006 11:10 AM To: Dani Lamdan Subject: Re: miriam lamdan



Here it is...I'm sorry about the delay, I did not have the final pages...just got them... Please keep me updated about your next shows. You know how to reach me... kisses, Ilanit [...] 46024 5131 21_[QUAR] Fw: life cycle11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@SOCAL.RR.COM31_Mon, 23 Jan 2006 08:40:05 -0800634_iso-8859-1 Message Once in a while, something special comes along too good not to share with all.

Steve











Subject: Life cycle-watch closely



This is awesome and I don't kknow how anyone did this....

this blew my mind, how'd they do that?







------------------------------------------------------------------------- The HABONET mailing list is hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org, a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 51156 137 30_Re: Fw: QUESTIONS?????????????11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@SOCAL.RR.COM31_Mon, 23 Jan 2006 09:10:00 -0800695_iso-8859-1 Richard

If anyone has been even distantly following events such as these over the past decades, what questions of motivation could possibly remain that haven't been hashed and rehashed thousands of times?

Steve



----- Original Message ----- From: rdsmith1957@COMCAST.NET To: HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2006 1:00 PM Subject: Re: Fw: QUESTIONS?????????????



The article in the actual print version didn't have that caption, and I didn't see it on the on line version either but in either case you directed at least part of your complaint to the reporter who certainly would have nothing to do with either the headline [...] 51294 115 7_Poverty12_amnon hadary22_gershon-keileh@013.NET31_Mon, 23 Jan 2006 20:40:39 +0200607_us-ascii >State report: More than 1 in 3 Israeli children live in poverty >[] > >By Ruth Sinai, Haaretz Correspondent >[] > > >The number of poor in Israel has risen sharply since 2000, with a >staggering 34.1 percent of children now living in poverty, according to a >report issued Monday by the National Insurance Institute. > >A total of 1.58 million people now live in poverty in Israel, half a >million more than in 2000, when Prime Minister Ariel Sharon took office. >The number of poor children has reached 738,000, up from 714,000 last year >and 482,000 in 2000. > [...] 51410 56 31_Re: Poverty and Different kids,12_amnon hadary22_gershon-keileh@013.NET31_Mon, 23 Jan 2006 20:52:42 +0200618_us-ascii Noam I'm computer challenged and can't manage to type the To: line in a manner that the internet recognizes. So I'm piggybacking as though it's a reply to your message At 18:45 23/01/2006, you wrote: > >Amnon asked about the movement's position on equality and determination to >work for peace. I offer no sweeping generalizations, bur merely two random >data points. > >One of my recently acquired step-daughters was on Workshop in 2001-2002. >The experience which seemed to motivate her the most was a project working >for social justice and the environment - helping to build a school using >recycled [...] 51467 24 31_Re: Poverty and Different kids,11_Noam Stopak21_nstopak@STARPOWER.NET31_Mon, 23 Jan 2006 13:58:22 -0500499_- Amonon wrote:

>Sic transit gloria mundi >Amnon

As you say. It's all greek to me...

Oook Oook a-chook.

Noam

------------------------------------------------------------------------- The HABONET mailing list is hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org, a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/

To unsubscribe email: HABONET-unsubscribe-request@SHAMASH.ORG 51492 99 31_Re: Poverty and Different kids,12_Sue Liberman20_fiddlebach@YAHOO.COM31_Mon, 23 Jan 2006 11:11:52 -0800567_iso-8859-1 HI- I am not sure I understand what Amnon is asking--Unfortunately, I would venture to say that most of us who are Habonet subscribers are not part of the "movement"- we are too old, and there is actually no formal structure for us. If you want to know what the movement stand is on these questions, then I suggest you ask the movement kids- the mazkirut, etc..My question is this: I know that institutions, such as the Jewish Agency, and the federations, raise milliono for Israel. Where is all of the money going?. I know, for example, that here in [...] 51592 61 46_Mazel Tov to Sam Flesher! and Malka..et al....12_Sue Liberman20_fiddlebach@YAHOO.COM31_Mon, 23 Jan 2006 11:13:27 -0800568_iso-8859-1 To all Pittsburgh chevre- mazal tov and good luck int he super bowl!-sue

Noam Stopak wrote: Amonon wrote:

>Sic transit gloria mundi >Amnon

As you say. It's all greek to me...

Oook Oook a-chook.

Noam

------------------------------------------------------------------------- The HABONET mailing list is hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org, a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 51654 93 50_Re: Mazel Tov to Sam Flesher! and Malka..et al....0_23_rdsmith1957@COMCAST.NET31_Mon, 23 Jan 2006 19:40:31 +0000662_- Funny you should say that Sue, because in my mind, the Steelers are the terrorists of the NFL, Go Seatle Go!!! -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: Sue Liberman > To all Pittsburgh chevre- mazal tov and good luck int he super bowl!-sue > > Noam Stopak wrote: Amonon wrote: > > >Sic transit gloria mundi > >Amnon > > As you say. It's all greek to me... > > Oook Oook a-chook. > > Noam > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > The HABONET mailing list is hosted by > Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org, > a service of Hebrew College, [...] 51748 312 11_Re: Poverty0_14_kbob24@AOL.COM31_Mon, 23 Jan 2006 14:44:31 -0500492_iso-8859-1 Amnon:

I thought you (and possibly others) would be interested in seeing a post-disengagement Israeli Policy Statement put together by Ameinu's Policy and Advocacy Committee headed up by Habonet's own Judy Gelman. Since Ameinu is the closest thing to "Habonim for adults," maybe this will provide some grist for the discussion mill. Just to provide some context, this was not meant to be a statement on a particular event but rather a broad statement of point of view. [...] 52061 48 31_Re: Poverty and Different kids,12_Jessica Bonn21_jessicab@BEZEQINT.NET31_Mon, 23 Jan 2006 21:50:29 +0200448_windows-1255 It means, man, that we're going to get old and ugly, and then die - the glory of the world doth pass ever on. Or maybe it means that Gloria Mundi always gets sick when she rides public transit from South Philly (Italian-heavy area) to Broad and Pine. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Noam Stopak" To: Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 8:58 PM Subject: Re: Poverty and Different kids, [...] 52110 27 15_Re: sic transit11_Noam Stopak21_nstopak@STARPOWER.NET31_Mon, 23 Jan 2006 15:03:15 -0500276_- Jessie wrote: >It means, man, that we're going to get old and ugly, and then die - the >glory of the world doth pass ever on. Or maybe it means that Gloria Mundi >always gets sick when she rides public transit from South Philly >(Italian-heavy area) to Broad and Pine. [...] 52138 72 11_Re: Poverty12_Jessica Bonn21_jessicab@BEZEQINT.NET31_Mon, 23 Jan 2006 22:11:19 +0200586_iso-8859-1 I would rather ask this forum what is the most effective response - here and in the US - to economic injustice for the rest of us (the movement has its own role, mainly in educating towards social activism... and then what?). What, beyond our vote (for Israelis), are the most meaningful actions we can take. As with any large social issue, I feel rather helpless. There are many small things which make me feel good, like patronizing businesses with a 'tav chevrati' (has anyone else heard about this project?)... but what really makes a difference? And what about the [...] 52211 90 50_Re: Mazel Tov to Sam Flesher! and Malka..et al....0_15_DebALev@AOL.COM29_Mon, 23 Jan 2006 15:52:13 EST464_US-ASCII



In a message dated 1/23/06 11:15:16 AM Pacific Standard Time, fiddlebach@YAHOO.COM writes:

To all Pittsburgh chevre- mazal tov and good luck int he super bowl!-sue





HEY!!!!!!!!!!

There's one of us in Seattle, too! What am I, chopped liver?

But then, I did live in Pittsburgh for 25 years........it's gonna be an interesting and alliterative event.....Steelers and Seahawks in the Superbowl. [...] 52302 54 50_Re: Mazel Tov to Sam Flesher! and Malka..et al....14_Holtzer Family20_carmdave@URIM.ORG.IL31_Mon, 23 Jan 2006 22:57:49 +0200496_iso-8859-1 No mention of growing up in Cincinnati and what the Steelers did to the Bengals' quarterback? Shame on you!!!!

Dave

------------------------------------------------------------------------- The HABONET mailing list is hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org, a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/

To unsubscribe email: HABONET-unsubscribe-request@SHAMASH.ORG 52357 828 66_Fw: Field Marshall Hermann Goering's Descendant Turns Israel Lover11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@SOCAL.RR.COM31_Mon, 23 Jan 2006 13:02:23 -0800479_iso-8859-1

I'm sure even the most jaded of us will find this article fascinating.

Steve



Subject: Field Marshall Hermann Goering's Descendant Turns Israel Lover



Nazi's relative turns Israel lover

Matias Goering is a direct descendant of Hitler's right-hand man and the commander of the Nazi air force. He also keeps Shabbat, wears a Kippa, and identifies with the Greater Israel vision of West Bank settlers by Eyal Marcus [...] 53186 82 50_Re: Mazel Tov to Sam Flesher! and Malka..et al....0_15_DebALev@AOL.COM29_Mon, 23 Jan 2006 16:32:28 EST461_US-ASCII



In a message dated 1/23/06 12:58:41 PM Pacific Standard Time, carmdave@URIM.ORG.IL writes:

No mention of growing up in Cincinnati and what the Steelers did to the Bengals' quarterback? Shame on you!!!!





You're right. I am properly chastised. I even saw it happen (on TV). OTOH, that's to be expected in a game like football, where big guys with huge salaries beat up other big guys with huge salaries. [...] 53269 158 30_Re: The Gesher Haziv Drug Ring0_23_jacknusan@EARTHLINK.NET31_Mon, 23 Jan 2006 16:52:55 -0500577_us-ascii Nehemia Meyers makes some very important points. There is both the BIG picture, the sociological picture of failed busineses, loan sharks, etc and what happens when good people, even socialists, have to become capitalists and there is the LITTLE (but also BIG) picture that says that drug addiction in Israel has been swept under the rug and not dealt with properly to my knowledge, but I could be wrong. Where is the drug education in schools except to say "just say no". Addiction is bad no matter where or whom it hits, and it surprises a lot of American Jews [...] 53428 33 42_Defending 'Munich' to my mishpocheh0_15_debalev@AOL.COM31_Mon, 23 Jan 2006 15:22:45 -0800409_ISO-8859-1 This story was sent to you by: Debbie

-------------------- Defending 'Munich' to my mishpocheh --------------------

By Tony Kushner

January 22 2006

AT A RECENT family gathering, my cousin-in-law, Janice, asked me to respond to complaints she'd read over and over again about "Munich," the Steven Spielberg film I co-wrote with Eric Roth, which she hadn't yet seen. [...] 53462 59 46_Fw: Defending 'Munich' to my mishpocheh11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@SOCAL.RR.COM31_Mon, 23 Jan 2006 15:51:36 -0800565_iso-8859-1 > The important question that was not answered by Mr. Kushner in his defense > is "If it is a piece of fictionalized drama, why call it "Munich" and > confuse people into thinking it was about Munich or the event "Munich"? > It wasn't! This mislabling was either done inadvertently, which is easily > excused, or it was done purposefully, for which aprobrium would be > fitting. If it were to purposely heat debate (and reap the profits, such > as happened with "Passions of the Christ"), then the negative response is > well deserved. > It sort of [...] 53522 68 30_[Fwd: Death of Shirley Seeman]11_Judy Gelman16_gelman@EROLS.COM31_Mon, 23 Jan 2006 21:45:00 -0500638_windows-1252 I believe that Shirley was a long time member of LZA and has some Habonim connection. Judy Gelman

-------- Original Message -------- Subject: Death of Shirley Seeman Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 21:04:07 -0500 From: clinton Wolcott To: ADATSHALOM@SHAMASH.ORG





I am sad to pass along the news that Adat Shalom member Shirley Seeman died today at her home. She was 87. She is survived by her husband, Sam, and three sons. Shirley's funeral will be held at the chapel at Judean Memorial Gardens, Wednesday at noon. There will be three shiva minyanim at the Seeman home at 7:30 on [...] 53591 77 50_Re: Mazel Tov to Sam Flesher! and Malka..et al....0_17_Smfgrappa@AOL.COM29_Mon, 23 Jan 2006 22:12:08 EST613_US-ASCII In a message dated 01/23/2006 2:15:16 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, fiddlebach@YAHOO.COM writes:

To all Pittsburgh chevre- mazal tov and good luck int he super bowl!-sue

Thank you Sue. And David, we had no intention of hurting Carson Palmer.

Sam











------------------------------------------------------------------------- The HABONET mailing list is hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org, a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 53669 106 11_Re: Poverty0_17_Smfgrappa@AOL.COM29_Tue, 24 Jan 2006 09:08:06 EST371_US-ASCII In a message dated 01/23/2006 3:12:05 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, jessicab@BEZEQINT.NET writes:

And what about the claim that one should not give generously to the many tzedaka funds that have sprouted up to feed the hungry since this is a subtle way of transferring the burden from government to the private sector (meanwhile let 'em eat cake) ...? [...] 53776 109 11_Re: Poverty0_26_Sharon_Gates@LONGBEACH.GOV31_Tue, 24 Jan 2006 08:29:26 -0800337_us-ascii Poverty is the fault of the GOP? Don't you think this is overstating things just a bit? I would never dispute that poverty is exacerbated by the policies of the GOP, but a direct result of those policies? Hardly. To blame a political party or particular policies is to ignore the basic inequalities of our economic system. [...] 53886 62 11_Re: Poverty12_Sue Liberman20_fiddlebach@YAHOO.COM31_Tue, 24 Jan 2006 12:20:43 -0800516_iso-8859-1 Sam- Jessie was talking about the poverty in Israel and all of the "funds" which have sprouted up to feed them-not the problems in America- but while on the topic- I think this country (US) is going to hell-Now the boig "brouhaha out here in LA is the plight of non-documented ( that is=illegal) day workers and how they are working below the poverty line and need to be taken care of...What about regular citizens???!!! God- we don't even have any more competitors left in the Autralian Open!...sue [...] 53949 102 11_Re: Poverty0_17_smfgrappa@AOL.COM31_Tue, 24 Jan 2006 15:35:18 -0500519_us-ascii



-----Original Message----- From: Sharon_Gates@LONGBEACH.GOV To: HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG Sent: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 08:29:26 -0800 Subject: Re: Poverty





Poverty is the fault of the GOP? Don't you think this is overstating things just a bit? I would never dispute that poverty is exacerbated by the policies of the GOP, but a direct result of those policies? Hardly. To blame a political party or particular policies is to ignore the basic inequalities of our economic system. [...] 54052 97 11_Re: Poverty0_17_smfgrappa@AOL.COM31_Tue, 24 Jan 2006 15:38:10 -0500651_us-ascii



-----Original Message----- From: Sue Liberman To: HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG Sent: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 12:20:43 -0800 Subject: Re: Poverty



Sam- Jessie was talking about the poverty in Israel and all of the "funds" which have sprouted up to feed them-not the problems in America- but while on the topic- I think this country (US) is going to hell-Now the boig "brouhaha out here in LA is the plight of non-documented ( that is=illegal) day workers and how they are working below the poverty line and need to be taken care of...What about regular citizens???!!! God- we don't even have any more [...] 54150 76 11_Re: Poverty12_Sue Liberman20_fiddlebach@YAHOO.COM31_Tue, 24 Jan 2006 16:21:04 -0800588_iso-8859-1 It isn't just the "poor"- the middle class is being squeezed to death. I remember growing up- it was my paren'ts' choice for my mother to work. Now, it is a necessity for both parents to work. Also- companies are getting rid of pensions, and more experienced workers to save money. Some are "downsizing" (look at Ford)....Now there will be 35,000 more workers without jobs and security; the health system stinks; and we are pouring a lot of money into illegals, the war, etc....and not taking care of our own...I hate to sound like one of those "isolationists"- because I [...] 54227 72 14_Re: Poverty-PS12_Sue Liberman20_fiddlebach@YAHOO.COM31_Tue, 24 Jan 2006 16:22:43 -0800849_iso-8859-1 Poverty- it ain't just for poor people anymore--sue

smfgrappa@AOL.COM wrote:

-----Original Message----- From: Sharon_Gates@LONGBEACH.GOV To: HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG Sent: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 08:29:26 -0800 Subject: Re: Poverty

.AOLPlainTextBody { margin: 0px; font-family: Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, Sans-Serif; font-size: 12px; color: #000; background-color: #fff; } .AOLPlainTextBody pre { font-size: 9pt; } .AOLInlineAttachment { margin: 10px; } .AOLAttachmentHeader { border-bottom: 2px solid #E9EAEB; background: #F9F9F9; } .AOLAttachmentHeader .Title { font: 11px Tahoma; font-weight: bold; color: #666666; background: #E9EAEB; padding: 3px 0px 1px 10px; } .AOLAttachmentHeader .FieldLabel { font: 11px Tahoma; font-weight: bold; color: #666666; padding: 1px 10px 1px 9px; } .AOLAttachmentHeader .FieldValue { font: [...] 54300 79 14_Re: Poverty-PS0_15_DebALev@AOL.COM29_Tue, 24 Jan 2006 19:35:04 EST384_US-ASCII In a message dated 1/24/06 4:23:10 PM Pacific Standard Time, fiddlebach@YAHOO.COM writes:

Poverty- it ain't just for poor people anymore--sueNope. It's for formerly middle-class people like me. It's going to be even worse with the Medicare Part D fiasco, which is basically government-run blackmail, written by and in collusion with the pharmaceutical companies. [...] 54380 44 14_Re: Poverty-PS11_Sylvia Lask14_SMLBOV@AOL.COM29_Tue, 24 Jan 2006 20:53:10 EST318_US-ASCII Mdicare part D is just one example of how this administration takes care of the elderly........they don't. Sylvia Lask and I am very much a senior citizen. I also worked for over 20 years with psychiatric patients and this is going to affect them as well. And they have very little voice in any of this. [...] 54425 107 11_Re: Poverty0_17_smfgrappa@AOL.COM31_Wed, 25 Jan 2006 09:35:34 -0500599_us-ascii Make a statement. Boycott Walmart.

Sam

It isn't just the "poor"- the middle class is being squeezed to death. I remember growing up- it was my paren'ts' choice for my mother to work. Now, it is a necessity for both parents to work. Also- companies are getting rid of pensions, and more experienced workers to save money. Some are "downsizing" (look at Ford)....Now there will be 35,000 more workers without jobs and security; the health system stinks; and we are pouring a lot of money into illegals, the war, etc....and not taking care of our own...I hate to sound like [...] 54533 117 14_Re: Poverty-PS0_17_smfgrappa@AOL.COM31_Wed, 25 Jan 2006 10:27:06 -0500619_us-ascii







be even worse with the Medicare Part D fiasco, which is basically government-run blackmail, written by and in collusion with the pharmaceutical companies.



Debbie



Medicare D is a national embarrasment. It is living proof of the basic corruption of the Republican party. Medicare D is a blatant effort to line the pockets of the insurance companies and the drug companies and the expense of the disabled and the elderly. The Republicans among us are culpable in this horrible scandal but they never really talk issues. They just repeat slogans. [...] 54651 127 11_Re: Poverty12_Sue Liberman20_fiddlebach@YAHOO.COM31_Wed, 25 Jan 2006 08:06:05 -0800557_iso-8859-1 I never go to Wal Mart- Also- my freind was the one who produced the film, "The High Cost of Low Prices-coming to a parking lot near you"- the wal-mart expose- Micha plays harmonica on it!--sue

--- smfgrappa@AOL.COM wrote:

> Make a statement. Boycott Walmart. > > Sam > > It isn't just the "poor"- the middle class is being > squeezed to death. I remember growing up- it was my > paren'ts' choice for my mother to work. Now, it is a > necessity for both parents to work. Also- companies > are getting rid of pensions, and more [...] 54779 144 10_Priorities12_Sue Liberman20_fiddlebach@YAHOO.COM31_Wed, 25 Jan 2006 08:17:11 -0800589_iso-8859-1 If you just sit down and think about what is going on in this country, it is appalling. We are spending trillions abroad on a war who but God knows was just; we killed hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis- a fact which is rarely discussed. But we have no funds to fix anything...The "left" is screaming about the rights of illegals while citizens are eating cat food and have no medical care ( while rapists and murderers get it, and education, for free)...our borders are unsafe; companies are going under, downsizing, letting people go, and gettiing rid of pensions; [...] 54924 175 11_Re: Poverty0_26_Sharon_Gates@LONGBEACH.GOV31_Wed, 25 Jan 2006 09:17:58 -0800713_us-ascii Boycotting WalMart is always a good thing to do, but what does it have to do with anything that Sue said?

Sharon









smfgrappa@AOL.COM Sent by: Habonim Dror Alumni Virtual Machaneh 01/25/2006 06:35 AM Please respond to Habonim Dror Alumni Virtual Machaneh



To: HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG cc: Subject: Re: Poverty



Make a statement. Boycott Walmart.

Sam

It isn't just the "poor"- the middle class is being squeezed to death. I remember growing up- it was my paren'ts' choice for my mother to work. Now, it is a necessity for both parents to work. Also- companies are getting rid of pensions, and more [...] 55100 45 10_Priorities12_Sue Liberman20_fiddlebach@YAHOO.COM31_Wed, 25 Jan 2006 10:16:16 -0800597_iso-8859-1

If you just sit down and think about what is going on in this country, it is appalling. We are spending trillions abroad on a war who but God knows was just; we killed hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis- a fact which is rarely discussed. But we have no funds to fix anything...The "left" is screaming about the rights of illegals while citizens are eating cat food and have no medical care ( while rapists and murderers get it, and education, for free)...our borders are unsafe; companies are going under, downsizing, letting people go, and gettiing rid of pensions; [...] 55146 51 11_Re: Poverty14_Holtzer Family20_carmdave@URIM.ORG.IL31_Wed, 25 Jan 2006 20:53:27 +0200475_iso-8859-1 Sorry folks, but when I get to the States, no way I'm boycotting Walmart. My hard earned (and few) dollars go farther there than anywhere else.........

David

------------------------------------------------------------------------- The HABONET mailing list is hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org, a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 55198 179 11_Re: Poverty0_17_smfgrappa@AOL.COM31_Wed, 25 Jan 2006 14:48:25 -0500398_us-ascii



Boycotting WalMart is always a good thing to do, but what does it have to do with anything that Sue said?

Sue is talking about the loss of jobs to overseas. Walmart is China, China is Walmart. Additionally Walmart does everything they can to screw their workers.















Make a statement. Boycott Walmart. [...] 55378 87 11_Re: Poverty0_26_Sharon_Gates@LONGBEACH.GOV31_Wed, 25 Jan 2006 11:24:06 -0800428_us-ascii Yeah, a couple pennies of those dollars might reach all the way to the workers in [China, Bolivia, Viet Nam, or wherever it's even cheaper] who made whatever you're buying. Maybe.

Sharon









Holtzer Family Sent by: Habonim Dror Alumni Virtual Machaneh 01/25/2006 10:53 AM Please respond to Habonim Dror Alumni Virtual Machaneh [...] 55466 190 11_Re: Poverty12_Jessica Bonn21_jessicab@BEZEQINT.NET31_Wed, 25 Jan 2006 22:46:22 +0200650_ISO-8859-1 David's position raises an interesting tension. What should we be expected to relinquish/sacrifice for our ideals, keeping in mind that all of us on Habonet live in the modern/western culture of plenty, and also recalling that some of us are wealthy and others joining the ranks of the 'new poor,' with plenty in-between and the Israelis (groan). Are there any consensus clusters? How does this relate to the values of the 'kupah system'? in indefatigable naivete, a Jerusalem chavera ----- Original Message ----- From: Sharon_Gates@LONGBEACH.GOV To: HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2006 9:24 PM Subject: Re: Poverty [...] 55657 80 11_Re: Poverty0_17_smfgrappa@AOL.COM31_Wed, 25 Jan 2006 15:53:22 -0500457_us-ascii

The strange relationship between WalMart and China has been much discussed in press. I have no problem with workers in Bolvia or Viet Nam. The exploitation of workers both in the US and China by Walmart is something that really bothers me.



Yeah, a couple pennies of those dollars might reach all the way to the workers in [China, Bolivia, Viet Nam, or wherever it's even cheaper] who made whatever you're buying. Maybe. [...] 55738 167 11_Re: Poverty0_14_LHIAM1@AOL.COM29_Wed, 25 Jan 2006 17:23:28 EST589_US-ASCII

In a message dated 1/25/2006 3:48:21 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, jessicab@BEZEQINT.NET writes:

David's position raises an interesting tension. What should we be expected to relinquish/sacrifice for our ideals, keeping in mind that all of us on Habonet live in the modern/western culture of plenty, and also recalling that some of us are wealthy and others joining the ranks of the 'new poor,' with plenty in-between and the Israelis (groan). Are there any consensus clusters? How does this relate to the values of the 'kupah system'? in indefatigable naivete, [...] 55906 97 11_Re: Poverty12_Sue Liberman20_fiddlebach@YAHOO.COM31_Wed, 25 Jan 2006 14:39:02 -0800547_iso-8859-1 Jessi raises a problem I was also going to mention- but from the "other side."- As you know, I was in the film biz for a long time; I got my start becuase producers were going to right-to-work states to avoid theunion scales, becuase the unions were outpricing themselves, and the demands were becoming absurd. TV producers were having to shoot the same amount of film ( 2 hours) for a TV movie, but do it in one tenth of the time as features, and on 1 tenth of the budgets, but unions were demanding the same pay scales...SO they [...] 56004 66 23_Re: Poverty- re : Kupah12_Sue Liberman20_fiddlebach@YAHOO.COM31_Wed, 25 Jan 2006 14:45:44 -0800542_iso-8859-1 WHile you are 100% correct , Hiam, that kupah doesn't cure all ills, it does teach an ethis rarely seen in today's society. I rememebr always oing out witht he chevre, and it didn't matter if we had moeny or not, someone would come up and pay for those who didn't have....At least in Baltimore, when we went out and had some activities, no one worried about "can I pay for the hot dog, or pizza"- because itr wasn't about that at all, but about being together. There was a little deli aroudn the corner from our bayit, and we [...] 56071 64 11_Re: Poverty0_14_LHIAM1@AOL.COM29_Wed, 25 Jan 2006 17:52:55 EST470_US-ASCII Sue, When you begin to accept compromising your values you give up your right to complain that you are living in a world without values. You can't have it both ways. Values are expensive - that is what makes them valuable. This is not a blame game - it isn't a matter of blaming Dave for his supporting bosses at the cost of the worker, but it is a matter of calling it what it is, supporting a system that makes the world a place YOU complain about. Hiam [...] 56136 83 11_Re: Poverty12_amnon hadary22_gershon-keileh@013.NET31_Thu, 26 Jan 2006 01:19:10 +0200658_us-ascii I'm glad I know you.

Amnon

At 00:23 26/01/2006, you wrote: >In a message dated 1/25/2006 3:48:21 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, >jessicab@BEZEQINT.NET writes: >David's position raises an interesting tension. What should we be expected >to relinquish/sacrifice for our ideals, keeping in mind that all of us on >Habonet live in the modern/western culture of plenty, and also recalling >that some of us are wealthy and others joining the ranks of the 'new >poor,' with plenty in-between and the Israelis (groan). Are there any >consensus clusters? How does this relate to the values of the 'kupah system'? >in indefatigable naivete, > [...] 56220 65 11_Re: Poverty12_Sue Liberman20_fiddlebach@YAHOO.COM31_Wed, 25 Jan 2006 16:20:14 -0800522_iso-8859-1 Hiam- Things are not black and white. Too often, we espouse values that give that impression- thou shalt not kill- but how many of us have stepped on an ant, or swatted a fly, or killed a bee, or a cockroach-or killed a chicken or a turkey, or even a plant for that matter....You go and buy a pair of shoes in Payless- becuase it's cheap- or boots, and find they are made in China; but try and go and find ones made in the USA?--When I visited Israel two years ago- I wanted to bring back something for my [...] 56286 118 11_Re: Poverty0_14_LHIAM1@AOL.COM29_Wed, 25 Jan 2006 20:07:49 EST496_US-ASCII Come on Sue you don't need me to tell you... "It is not your duty to complete the task, but neither are you free to desist from it" There is a big leap from not shopping at Wal-Mart to organizing the men and women who work there, because you can't do the second does not empower you to do the first. You are correct none of us are perfect - we all make choices Some choose to live with bugs and others step on them. I choose to step on bugs but choose not to treat men and women in [...] 56405 71 11_Re: Poverty12_Sue Liberman20_fiddlebach@YAHOO.COM31_Wed, 25 Jan 2006 17:33:48 -0800590_iso-8859-1 So "Come on Hiam"--I am NOT making excuses or being defensive- only saying that we can not all live up to other peoples' standards all of the time. Ending a marriage is sometimes a good thing; often is isn't- but it is painful nevertheless to everyone. The choice of where to shop is an interesting one. During the supermarket strike out here, a lot of people started going to smaller stores, and when the strike was over, they continued doing that- so the "supermarkets" lost clientel...Why do'nt we apply the same values of Wal-mart to the supermarket chains-there was an [...] 56477 190 11_Re: Poverty17_Sheldon and Heidi21_shelheid@ACTCOM.CO.IL31_Thu, 26 Jan 2006 08:26:54 +0200476_us-ascii



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------------------------------------------------------------------------- The HABONET mailing list is hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org, a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 56668 47 11_Re: Poverty19_Aliya Cheskis-Cotel13_sc523@AOL.COM31_Thu, 26 Jan 2006 02:43:43 -0500 56716 326 11_Re: Poverty12_Jessica Bonn21_jessicab@BEZEQINT.NET31_Thu, 26 Jan 2006 11:14:53 +0200572_ISO-8859-1 I only mean the 'spirit' of the kupah system - it was a shorthand metaphor for rethinking our giving and taking. Obviously kupah is a very unsophisticated educational device - but it does put the issue on the table, and as Aliyah said, makes a strong statement about what is really important.I agree entirely with the approach that we must be prepared to make sacrifices in promoting our values (this also depends on knowing it will make a difference - should we give our money to the kibbutz while others keep accounts on the side, kind of thing). In any [...] 57043 60 11_Re: Poverty11_Judy Gelman16_gelman@EROLS.COM31_Thu, 26 Jan 2006 06:51:56 -0500563_ISO-8859-1 Actually, everyone should walk in, so they know what a Wal-Mart is and why it is so successful and seductive. What you shouldn't do it spend your money there. However, there are places--and not just little poduck places--where Wal-Mart is now the only place to get certain things. For example, along the lower Delaware coast, Wal-Mart is now the only place with a fabric department. All the old fabric stores are gone. The next closest one may be about 90 minutes away, in the next big town, and, for all I know, it may be a Wal-Mart too. It puts [...] 57104 90 11_Re: Poverty12_Jessica Bonn21_jessicab@BEZEQINT.NET31_Thu, 26 Jan 2006 14:17:42 +0200636_iso-8859-1 Again, the damage/efficacy question comes up. Drive 4 hours not to buy Wal-Mart? What does one achieve - cleaning one's conscience and dirtying the air? Wouldn't it be better to spend the saved hours writing letters to Congress? How depressing, the power of large economic forces, the strength in numbers. On another related topic: How has email been changing activism - is there any noticeable difference (MoveOn, for example)? Does the fact that campaigns are reaching more people lead to a higher net activist response and a resultant change in the problems being addressed? That would be an interesting dissertation [...] 57195 247 11_Re: Poverty13_Moshe Sheskin23_moshe.sheskin@GMAIL.COM31_Thu, 26 Jan 2006 14:27:24 +0200562_ISO-8859-1 I'm not ashamed to say that I'm not only going to walk through a Walmart store but I will buy there as well. Although my aim is not to defend Walmart , they do contribute to the community by supporting charitable organizations. Secondly, people who are on a fixed income watch their dollars and if Walmart didn't exist, I can just imagine how the existing retail outlets would raise the prices. Then there is the problem of employment. If people are ready to work and can find employment even at the minimum wage, there is no reason to deny them [...] 57443 346 11_Re: Poverty17_Sheldon and Heidi21_shelheid@ACTCOM.CO.IL31_Thu, 26 Jan 2006 14:32:30 +0200476_us-ascii



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------------------------------------------------------------------------- The HABONET mailing list is hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org, a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 57790 56 11_Re: Poverty14_Holtzer Family20_carmdave@URIM.ORG.IL31_Thu, 26 Jan 2006 16:10:51 +0200530_iso-8859-1 Jeez.... well, is it ok to shop in toys r us, office depot, home center, ace hardware, kroger, or any of the large chains? Don't they also buy the majority of their stock from China and strive to pay the lowest salaries they can get away with? Like, where do you draw the line? You cannot run all over trying to buy everything from Mom and Pop shops. For that matter, where do you buy your gasoline? Chevron? Mobil? They also exploit the world's resources.... You going to hand in your car keys and start walking? [...] 57847 540 11_Re: Poverty0_23_rdsmith1957@COMCAST.NET31_Thu, 26 Jan 2006 15:22:07 +0000617_- But if we all lowered our standards to the moral values of NE Philly where would that put us?

-------------- Original message ---------------------- From: Sheldon and Heidi > Interesting thread. It seems to me that boycotting Wal-mart is closing the > barn door, etc. It is hard to believe that not shopping there will have the > desired effect. I am not advocating total greed and selfishness, rather I > think we have to think creatively. In small communities, or lower income > communities, once Wal-mart is there the process of closing the "non-chain" > stores can be slowed [...] 58388 54 11_Re: Poverty20_Naomi Goldberg Honor18_naomijgh@YAHOO.COM31_Thu, 26 Jan 2006 07:39:45 -0800573_iso-8859-1 Jessie--

I know what you mean about things that you do because they salve your conscience more than they actually accomplish anything. I am a demon recycler at home, and was dismayed to find that the solid waste/recycling facility in my community had been pulling the glass out of the mixed recyclables and paying to have it sent to a landfill because there had been no market for it. Then they hit upon the idea of crushing it to a consistency where it could be used to replace sand or fine gravel in certain kinds of construction projects, and now [...] 58443 67 11_Re: Poverty0_13_JLCAA@AOL.COM29_Thu, 26 Jan 2006 11:09:56 EST346_US-ASCII

In a message dated 1/26/2006 6:50:44 AM Eastern Standard Time, gelman@EROLS.COM writes:

I cannot believe that ANYONE from > a Habonim background would walk into a Wal-Mart in direct > contradiction of the way we were brought up.



Its OK to go into a Wal-Mart --- but only to hand out organizing flyers! [...] 58511 46 11_Re: Poverty11_Sylvia Lask14_SMLBOV@AOL.COM29_Thu, 26 Jan 2006 11:48:47 EST391_US-ASCII I've never walked into a Wal-Mart and I can understand where people are coming from but we all live with our own beliefs. My kids grew up boycotting grapes and lettuce and even Pepsi. In fact it was my son who told me that Israel was doing business with Pepsi so why was I still boycotting them. I still don't buy anything made in Germany but that may be my generation. Sylvia [...] 58558 56 68_Re: Poverty-Priorities, Values, and Haboheads and the Wal Mart movie12_Sue Liberman20_fiddlebach@YAHOO.COM31_Thu, 26 Jan 2006 10:04:43 -0800598_iso-8859-1 Firstly, let me state that I have a feeling most, if not all, of the people on this list live their lives with a great degree of emphasis on social justice, the "kupah" phenomenon/spirit, and with compassion for those less fortunate, and with a desire to "do the right thing." But when it comes to our daily, everyday life, those nice generalizations sometimes get "compromised" if not from neglect, or lack of knowledge, or from financial necessities, or other reasons which are too numerous to mention. But that doesn't mean we should beat ourselves up. I find myself agreeing so [...] 58615 76 68_Re: Poverty-Priorities, Values, and Haboheads and the Wal Mart movie0_23_rdsmith1957@COMCAST.NET31_Thu, 26 Jan 2006 18:28:49 +0000651_- In Baltimore we call that "hosale."

-------------- Original message -------------- From: Sue Liberman

Firstly, let me state that I have a feeling most, if not all, of the people on this list live their lives with a great degree of emphasis on social justice, the "kupah" phenomenon/spirit, and with compassion for those less fortunate, and with a desire to "do the right thing." But when it comes to our daily, everyday life, those nice generalizations sometimes get "compromised" if not from neglect, or lack of knowledge, or from financial necessities, or other reasons which are too numerous to mention. [...] 58692 314 68_Re: Poverty-Priorities, Values, and Haboheads and the Wal Mart movie8_Jon Baum19_jonbaum@SASA.ORG.IL31_Thu, 26 Jan 2006 20:44:18 +0200449_us-ascii Has anyone else noticed that a discussion on poverty has morphed into one on shopping?

Jon

-----Original Message----- From: Habonim Dror Alumni Virtual Machaneh [mailto:HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG] On Behalf Of rdsmith1957@COMCAST.NET Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 8:29 PM To: HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG Subject: Re: Poverty-Priorities, Values, and Haboheads and the Wal Mart movie



In Baltimore we call that "hosale." [...] 59007 52 11_Re: Poverty12_Sue Liberman20_fiddlebach@YAHOO.COM31_Thu, 26 Jan 2006 11:01:06 -0800645_iso-8859-1 I was in the process of editing an article for our paper- about the UJC and its disbursements of funds for Katrina victims: "Smaller amounts have been allocated to groups such as the Dallas Mayor's Housing Initiative, to provide housing assistance to evacuees ($250,000); the Jewish Federation of Northern Louisiana to provide Wal-Mart gift cards to evacuees in shelters ($153,900); and the Jewish community of Jackson, Miss., for emergency aid to evacuees ($50,000). "---So, I guess someone needs to alert the UJC about the evil of Wal-Mart- and why is it providing funding for people to and shop there....small world..sue(sie) [...] 59060 57 19_Poverty and Walmart14_Holtzer Family20_carmdave@URIM.ORG.IL31_Thu, 26 Jan 2006 21:17:24 +0200427_windows-1255 Yes, as usual, the subject has moved on to someone's pet peeve. Oh, yes, poverty.... If I remember correctly, Walmart is the US's biggest employer after the government. Even considering the minimum wage (which should be raised), that means a few hundred thousand people (many of them condsidered unemployable) have jobs, and the chance to work up the ladder. That is better than being on welfare, hands down. [...] 59118 70 23_Re: Poverty and Walmart0_13_JLCAA@AOL.COM29_Thu, 26 Jan 2006 14:34:10 EST349_US-ASCII

In a message dated 1/26/2006 2:19:52 PM Eastern Standard Time, carmdave@URIM.ORG.IL writes:

That is better than being on welfare, hands down



the problem is that many of those working for Wal-Mart still must rec. one form of welfare or another.That's not exactly a fair days pay, for a fair days work. Avi [...] 59189 37 15_Notwithstanding12_amnon hadary22_gershon-keileh@013.NET31_Thu, 26 Jan 2006 21:45:33 +0200602_us-ascii Haverot/im Awed by the long run that "Poverty" has had on Habonet, I am encouraged to trot out another topic - men, testosterone and war. A recent study by the IDF medical corps conducted on over 5,000 males in the standing army uncovered some troubling data. All the respondents were in good health. An analysis of the questionnaires reveals that more than 25 percent of them suffered from some degree of sexual insufficiency, ranging from precocious climax, to inability to maintain an erection, to sexual disinterest. What brings me up short in the findings is that it runs counter to [...] 59227 129 23_Re: Poverty and Walmart8_Jon Baum19_jonbaum@SASA.ORG.IL31_Thu, 26 Jan 2006 21:43:08 +0200694_us-ascii Of course then we could complain about the high rate of unemployment.

-----Original Message----- From: Habonim Dror Alumni Virtual Machaneh [mailto:HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG] On Behalf Of Holtzer Family Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 9:17 PM To: HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG Subject: Poverty and Walmart



Yes, as usual, the subject has moved on to someone's pet peeve. Oh, yes, poverty.... If I remember correctly, Walmart is the US's biggest employer after the government. Even considering the minimum wage (which should be raised), that means a few hundred thousand people (many of them condsidered unemployable) have jobs, and the chance to work up the ladder. That is [...] 59357 62 19_Re: Notwithstanding8_Jon Baum19_jonbaum@SASA.ORG.IL31_Thu, 26 Jan 2006 21:58:02 +0200439_us-ascii Amnon, knowing what I do about soldiers, my guess is that they're simply very tired. And seeing how our boys act when they come home for the weekends makes me doubt the accuracy of the study.

Jon

-----Original Message----- From: Habonim Dror Alumni Virtual Machaneh [mailto:HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG] On Behalf Of amnon hadary Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 9:46 PM To: HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG Subject: Notwithstanding [...] 59420 47 23_Re: Poverty and Walmart11_Judy Gelman16_gelman@EROLS.COM31_Thu, 26 Jan 2006 15:14:33 -0500395_ISO-8859-1 And these jobs replaced others. THere is no evidence that I know of that Wal-Mart employs people who are particiularly hard to employ. It likes part timers (no benefits) and hires a lot of retired people in some places. These people often worked for much higher wages previously. At least in DC, there is no "inner city" Wal-Mart so it isn't hiring the hardcore unemployed. Judy [...] 59468 156 23_Re: Poverty and Walmart12_Jessica Bonn21_jessicab@BEZEQINT.NET31_Thu, 26 Jan 2006 22:21:16 +0200647_windows-1255 Re the 'pet peeve': Are we back to the snidese of the old Habonet? Ma yesh?

Re your defense of Walmart - it's an 'end justifies the means' position. There are other, better options. Why can't there be state incentives to run community businesses? Or why can't the government employ hundreds of thousands of the 'unemployable' in a Roosevelt-style scheme? Why can't they be breaking up highways and planting trees, sorting papers for recycling, or tending community gardens. Instead they're coopted into promoting a buy-more culture, helping clutter the waste stream, and working for an anonymous and apathetic employer in [...] 59625 396 68_Re: Poverty-Priorities, Values, and Haboheads and the Wal Mart movie12_Jessica Bonn21_jessicab@BEZEQINT.NET31_Thu, 26 Jan 2006 22:30:30 +0200676_iso-8859-1 MessageAren't they quite related? To echo Dave (if this is what he meant), we cannot address any of the consumer issues seriously without looking at a larger theoretical issue: in order to make any real change in so many problems posed by modern economics/market dynamics, there would have to be a major change in the normative Western lifestyle. This will inevitably happen (save the possibility of presently unimaginable technological innovations) of its own accord: multiple energy crises, mayhem in international markets and local habits due to global warming - general depletion of resources and environmental destruction of inconceivable proportion. But [...] 60022 222 23_Re: Poverty and Walmart8_Jon Baum19_jonbaum@SASA.ORG.IL31_Thu, 26 Jan 2006 22:31:38 +0200696_us-ascii Breaking up highways?

-----Original Message----- From: Habonim Dror Alumni Virtual Machaneh [mailto:HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG] On Behalf Of Jessica Bonn Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 10:21 PM To: HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG Subject: Re: Poverty and Walmart



Re the 'pet peeve': Are we back to the snidese of the old Habonet? Ma yesh?

Re your defense of Walmart - it's an 'end justifies the means' position. There are other, better options. Why can't there be state incentives to run community businesses? Or why can't the government employ hundreds of thousands of the 'unemployable' in a Roosevelt-style scheme? Why can't they be breaking up highways and planting [...] 60245 277 23_Fw: Poverty and Walmart12_Jessica Bonn21_jessicab@BEZEQINT.NET31_Thu, 26 Jan 2006 22:37:22 +0200472_iso-8859-1 Message Just rambling association for the sake of discussion to the tune of Paved Paradise - not simplistic crunch (so to speak). Jon - how is your email configured that when one hits 'reply' to you it goes to your personal email, where as with other Habonet contributers the 'reply' sends out to the whole list? ----- Original Message ----- From: Jon Baum To: HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 10:31 PM Subject: Re: Poverty and Walmart [...] 60523 63 23_Re: Poverty and Walmart14_Holtzer Family20_carmdave@URIM.ORG.IL31_Thu, 26 Jan 2006 23:03:03 +0200355_iso-8859-1 MessageWhile we're at it (saving the world from wal mart), we can solve disease, poverty, global warming, global cooling, war, and all the other causes that are so close to our Habo-hearts. How many of you drive one of those hybrid cars? Have your own compost pile? Grow and eat your own veggies? Have solar panels to heat your hot water? [...] 60587 373 23_Re: Poverty and Walmart8_Jon Baum19_jonbaum@SASA.ORG.IL31_Thu, 26 Jan 2006 23:03:13 +0200438_us-ascii Beats me, Jessie. My email relationship with Habonet has always been problematic. I also sometimes try to reply to a message and get the individual's address in the "To" slot. Up until recently, I always got a Virus warning along with mail that I sent to the list. Sometimes my messages don't get through at all. I don't know what exactly the problem is, but I'm sure that somehow it's Brian's fault, even though he bailed. [...] 60961 77 23_Re: Poverty and Walmart12_Sue Liberman20_fiddlebach@YAHOO.COM31_Thu, 26 Jan 2006 13:04:40 -0800425_iso-8859-1 Jessie- the government uses prisoners in a lot of those jobs- to clean highways, pick up trash- so not only do they get "jobs" others kight have, but they also get free healthcare and eeducation degrees. Where these jobs are "outsourced," then high-cost companies are used--No one seems to care about that... Somehow, the government takes care of criminals better than law-abiding citizens....go figure...sue [...] 61039 125 68_Re: Poverty-Priorities, Values, and Haboheads and the Wal Mart movie12_Sue Liberman20_fiddlebach@YAHOO.COM31_Thu, 26 Jan 2006 13:07:23 -0800636_iso-8859-1 In answer to you, Jessie- yes--we are opting for the "luxury" and pragmatic rather than the radical; but I think it is because many of us, at least here in America, are tired of fighting and getting nowhere....BY the way- how are you taking the elections? (Palestinian, that is)--sue

Jessica Bonn wrote:Message Aren't they quite related? To echo Dave (if this is what he meant), we cannot address any of the consumer issues seriously without looking at a larger theoretical issue: in order to make any real change in so many problems posed by modern economics/market dynamics, there would [...] 61165 144 23_Re: Poverty and Walmart12_Jessica Bonn21_jessicab@BEZEQINT.NET31_Thu, 26 Jan 2006 23:09:55 +0200420_iso-8859-1 MessageOK, I give up at actually talking about ideas. See you next round for some more real topics that don't offend anybody like the Steelers and 'who's third from the left' in the 10th workshop group photo (Ok, now some wiseguy's gonna post the answer) ----- Original Message ----- From: Holtzer Family To: HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 11:03 PM Subject: Re: Poverty and Walmart [...] 61310 536 68_Re: Poverty-Priorities, Values, and Haboheads and the Wal Mart movie12_Jessica Bonn21_jessicab@BEZEQINT.NET31_Thu, 26 Jan 2006 23:12:53 +0200524_iso-8859-1 MessageFor goodness sakes, Dave and ?Sue and anyone else - stop assuming that I'm excluding myself from the 'we'. I am the we (despite my compost pile and - like every Israeli - solar water heater) ! I am the we. We are the we! and the walrus... or was that the Wal-mart do do di do No comment yet on the elections. ----- Original Message ----- From: Sue Liberman To: HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 11:07 PM Subject: Re: Poverty-Priorities, Values, and Haboheads and the Wal Mart movie [...] 61847 328 26_From the Chicago Sun-Times8_Jon Baum19_jonbaum@SASA.ORG.IL31_Thu, 26 Jan 2006 23:25:46 +0200464_us-ascii

Thousands apply for jobs at new Wal-Mart



January 26, 2006

BY LESLIE BALDACCI Staff Reporter



Eighteen months after the Chicago City Council torpedoed a South Side Wal-Mart, 24,500 Chicagoans applied for 325 jobs at a Wal-Mart opening Friday in south suburban Evergreen Park, one block outside the city limits.

The new Wal-Mart at 2500 W. 95th is one block west of Western Avenue, the city boundary. [...] 62176 402 23_Re: Poverty and Walmart12_Jessica Bonn21_jessicab@BEZEQINT.NET31_Thu, 26 Jan 2006 23:32:47 +0200589_iso-8859-1 MessageJon, haven't you noticed that all along I've made that cautionary point about not overlooking the realities of those for whom Wal-Mart may be a 'can't turn it down' offer. Haven't I said already twice that the answer to the question is not the same for those who live 'hand-to-mouth' - including the true poor, and, incidentally/lhavdil the relative position of many of the Israelis, including myself, relative to our US peers - and those with expendable income. I've defended Dave, nu. Give me a break - the one he asked for, or we can share it. In short, Wal-Mart [...] 62579 155 23_Re: Poverty and Walmart0_15_DebALev@AOL.COM29_Thu, 26 Jan 2006 16:45:32 EST537_US-ASCII



In a message dated 1/26/06 11:19:52 AM Pacific Standard Time, carmdave@URIM.ORG.IL writes:

Yes, as usual, the subject has moved on to someone's pet peeve. Oh, yes, poverty.... If I remember correctly, Walmart is the US's biggest employer after the government. Even considering the minimum wage (which should be raised), that means a few hundred thousand people (many of them condsidered unemployable) have jobs, and the chance to work up the ladder. That is better than being on welfare, hands down. [...] 62735 60 50_Job Opening at Givat Haviva Educational Foundation0_14_kbob24@AOL.COM31_Thu, 26 Jan 2006 17:19:28 -0500704_us-ascii Hi Folks - we were asked to circulate this for our friends at Givat Haviva ---------------------------------------------------------------------

Communications Coordinator

Givat Haviva Educational Foundation is the US partner of Givat Haviva in Israel, www.givathaviva.org.il. Givat Haviva is the oldest and largest organization in Israel promoting Jewish-Arab relations. The organization was founded more than 50 years ago by the kibbutz movement. More that 25,000 people participate in programs on the Givat Haviva campus every year. The Givat Haviva Educational Foundation is engaged in fundraising, development, outreach and education on behalf of Givat Haviva in Israel. [...] 62796 52 21_Palestinian Elections0_18_Green88888@AOL.COM29_Thu, 26 Jan 2006 17:25:38 EST523_US-ASCII Not to change the subject, but........What do Haboneters feel are the implications of the Hamas winning a majority of seats in the Palestinian elections? Is Hamas a viable peace partner? What will happen now? Donna

------------------------------------------------------------------------- The HABONET mailing list is hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org, a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 62849 192 54_Re: Job Opening at Givat Haviva Educational Foundation12_Jessica Bonn21_jessicab@BEZEQINT.NET31_Fri, 27 Jan 2006 00:40:11 +0200447_iso-8859-1 Ken - where is the location for the job? (or is it virtual i.e. can be performed from anywhere?) ----- Original Message ----- From: kbob24@AOL.COM To: HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 12:19 AM Subject: Job Opening at Givat Haviva Educational Foundation



Hi Folks - we were asked to circulate this for our friends at Givat Haviva --------------------------------------------------------------------- [...] 63042 55 21_Palestinian Elections0_18_Green88888@AOL.COM29_Thu, 26 Jan 2006 17:31:20 EST539_US-ASCII

Not to change the subject, but........What do Haboneters feel are the implications of the Hamas winning a majority of seats in the Palestinian elections? Is Hamas a viable peace partner? What will happen now? Donna



------------------------------------------------------------------------- The HABONET mailing list is hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org, a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 63098 141 34_To Jessie--Re: Poverty and Walmart12_Sue Liberman20_fiddlebach@YAHOO.COM31_Thu, 26 Jan 2006 15:19:53 -0800515_iso-8859-1 Jessie- I am always on your side!--You have said what I have been thinking- so I don't understand why you are "singleing" me out along with Dave as being one who doesn't care or thinks you dont 'care about "ideas"- I think the issues you have brought up are very pertinent!--and I thought I was expounding on that--I started when Hiam put me down about values- and I asked the question, where do we stop?- (remember the killing the cockroach vs. the human being? and the "grey" situations?..)---sue [...] 63240 81 19_Poverty and Walmart0_14_LHIAM1@AOL.COM29_Thu, 26 Jan 2006 19:43:29 EST503_US-ASCII Sue, I am sorry if you felt put down - that was not my intention. My statement was simply that all of us must make our own decisions. The only "moral compass" we can use is one of our own creation. None of us are perfect (I am not particularly good at recycling and with all my standing for the working man continue to see films that are made by scabs in Canada) The stands I take are important and valid for me they may or may not be valid for you. I am comfortable with the lines that I [...] 63322 175 54_Re: Job Opening at Givat Haviva Educational Foundation0_14_kbob24@AOL.COM31_Thu, 26 Jan 2006 20:13:12 -0500526_us-ascii Jesse:

Sorry, but I know nothing about the job but here is the contact info to follow up;

Stephen D. Shapiro Executive Director Givat Haviva Educational Foundation 114 West 26th Street, Suite 1001 New York, NY 10001 P: 212-989-9272 F: 212-989-9840 E: shapiro@givathaviva.org

Regards,

Ken -----Original Message----- From: Jessica Bonn To: HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG Sent: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 00:40:11 +0200 Subject: Re: Job Opening at Givat Haviva Educational Foundation [...] 63498 63 23_Re: Poverty and Walmart12_Sue Liberman20_fiddlebach@YAHOO.COM31_Thu, 26 Jan 2006 17:15:47 -0800531_iso-8859-1 Hiam- I certainly do not feel "put down" by myself; the one problem I find with email is that you can not hear the "tone" of the words, and sometimes when we feel that we have written words in one context, the reader "hears" them in another. I have seen this happen with Sam and "the boys"--But look- I am perfectly happy with the decisions I make, at this old age...most of the time; the most importan thing is that I know I am making them from a good place and with good intentions, although they do say that the [...] 63562 42 25_Re: Palestinian Elections11_Sylvia Lask14_SMLBOV@AOL.COM29_Thu, 26 Jan 2006 21:45:40 EST483_US-ASCII So glad to get off the subject of WalMart. I personally amvery worried about the elections. I pray that we will see peace but I think in my lifetime, it just won't be. Sylvia

------------------------------------------------------------------------- The HABONET mailing list is hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org, a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 63605 137 23_Re: Poverty and Walmart0_17_Smfgrappa@AOL.COM29_Thu, 26 Jan 2006 22:38:20 EST623_US-ASCII In a message dated 01/26/2006 4:34:56 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, jessicab@BEZEQINT.NET writes:

Jon, haven't you noticed that all along I've made that cautionary point abou t not overlooking the realities of those for whom Wal-Mart may be a 'can't turn it down' offer. Haven't I said already twice that the answer to the question is not the same for those who live 'hand-to-mouth' - including the true poor, and, incidentally/lhavdil the relative position of many of the Israelis, including myself, relative to our US peers - and those with expendable income. I've defended Dave, nu. Give me a break - [...] 63743 227 11_Re: Poverty11_Noam Stopak21_nstopak@STARPOWER.NET31_Thu, 26 Jan 2006 22:41:38 -0500370_iso-8859-1 close to New Jersey?

to hark back to an earlier thread, I heard a bit on the radio the other day about the Trenton on what I believe it was the 100th anniversary of the "What Trenton makes"

----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 10:22 AM Subject: Re: Poverty [...] 63971 270 11_Re: Poverty11_Judy Gelman16_gelman@EROLS.COM31_Thu, 26 Jan 2006 22:59:55 -0500570_ISO-8859-1 I heard that too--Previously, I always thought it was some company's slogan, not the slogan of Trenton. Judy

Noam Stopak wrote:

> close to New Jersey? > > to hark back to an earlier thread, I heard a bit on the radio the other > day about the Trenton on what I believe it was the 100th anniversary > of the > "What Trenton makes" > > ----- Original Message ----- From: > To: > Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 10:22 AM > Subject: Re: Poverty > > >> But if we all lowered our standards to the [...] 64242 289 11_Re: Poverty12_Jessica Bonn21_jessicab@BEZEQINT.NET31_Fri, 27 Jan 2006 09:01:23 +0200586_iso-8859-1 So who did put it up? Also, is it really self-flattering? Or is that the best Trenton can do (besides the Ladens)? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Judy Gelman" To: Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 5:59 AM Subject: Re: Poverty



>I heard that too--Previously, I always thought it was some company's >slogan, not the slogan of Trenton. > Judy > > Noam Stopak wrote: > >> close to New Jersey? >> >> to hark back to an earlier thread, I heard a bit on the radio the other >> day about the Trenton on what I believe it [...] 64532 561 38_Re: To Jessie--Re: Poverty and Walmart12_Jessica Bonn21_jessicab@BEZEQINT.NET31_Fri, 27 Jan 2006 09:03:08 +0200638_iso-8859-1 MessageNo no, Sue. Misunderstanding. No intended reference to you - enjoying the correspondence w/you. Jessie ----- Original Message ----- From: Sue Liberman To: HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 1:19 AM Subject: To Jessie--Re: Poverty and Walmart



Jessie- I am always on your side!--You have said what I have been thinking- so I don't understand why you are "singleing" me out along with Dave as being one who doesn't care or thinks you dont 'care about "ideas"- I think the issues you have brought up are very pertinent!--and I thought I was expounding on that--I started when Hiam put me [...] 65094 149 25_Re: Palestinian Elections12_Jessica Bonn21_jessicab@BEZEQINT.NET31_Fri, 27 Jan 2006 09:22:03 +0200601_iso-8859-1 The Palestinian vote for Hamas is not one for terror per se - there has been plenty of Fatah terror too. I'm not trying 'lthaher et hasheretz' but to balance out the picture relative to the other organizations. Hamas runs extensive social programs, using a method similar to Shas's on that front, and I believe that's a large part of how they win voters. Terror attacks, of course, are another way of winning voters (it's been documented that many attacks purportedly perpetrated for retaliation that are actually an attempt to 'win the street' - read this in various places including [...] 65244 178 46_A plan for the USA in light of security needs.13_Moshe Sheskin23_moshe.sheskin@GMAIL.COM31_Fri, 27 Jan 2006 09:36:06 +0200342_ISO-8859-1 In light of the Hamas (sic) victory and the problems that the USA has with security, the following was well received by me. Robin Williams, the noted actor, has come up with a very interesting plan.

Moshe Sheskin ================================== Robin Williams, wearing a shirt that says "I love New York" in Arabic. [...] 65423 60 43_[BULK] Jimmy Carter International Idiot Day13_Moshe Sheskin23_moshe.sheskin@GMAIL.COM31_Fri, 27 Jan 2006 09:46:27 +0200463_ISO-8859-1 Well, Jimmy Carter did it again. He virtually guaranteed free elections in the Palestinian Authority by bringing with him 85 observers. The world should recognize the efforts of Jimmy Carter, ex-President of the U.S.A. by establishing a special day, namely, January 26th, as a great holiday. It is to be know as the : JIMMY CARTER INTERNATIONAL DAY. Personally, I'm glad that he is a past President. But at present he is a do-gooder and an idiot. [...] 65484 60 50_Re: A plan for the USA in light of security needs.0_15_DebALev@AOL.COM29_Fri, 27 Jan 2006 02:51:35 EST513_US-ASCII Again, our friends at Snopes have something on this. They also have two different #11s. Been making the rounds since 2003.







"Be serious, be passionate, wake up!" Susan Sontag

------------------------------------------------------------------------- The HABONET mailing list is hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org, a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 65545 55 50_Re: A plan for the USA in light of security needs.0_15_DebALev@AOL.COM29_Fri, 27 Jan 2006 02:52:20 EST526_US-ASCII OOPS......sorry......the URL is



_http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/williams.asp_ (http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/williams.asp)

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To unsubscribe email: HABONET-unsubscribe-request@SHAMASH.ORG 65601 344 11_Re: Poverty11_Judy Gelman16_gelman@EROLS.COM31_Fri, 27 Jan 2006 06:30:16 -0500347_ISO-8859-1 Trenton is bragging about its manufacturing prowess. I think I remember that the mayor at the time, who had previously been in advertising, came up with the slogan. It was a not-very-long story heard during rush hour with my son in the car persistently asking for the rock music station instead, so I was a little distracted. Judy [...] 65946 42 20_Equality was Poverty12_amnon hadary22_gershon-keileh@013.NET31_Fri, 27 Jan 2006 16:25:02 +0200555_us-ascii Poverty has been around forever. Look at how long it's been making the rounds on Habonet. Still, poverty is a relative term. It is flanked on one side by hunger which is measurable in calories and by equality, on the other, which is immeasurable because it is an aspiration. When we used to say from each according to their ability and to each according to their needs we went past the stage of doling out exactly the same number of m&ms to everyone we went towards caring for the fuck ups and enabling the able. Although it had it's faults [...] 65989 25 25_Re: Palestinian Elections11_Noam Stopak21_nstopak@STARPOWER.NET31_Fri, 27 Jan 2006 09:22:06 -0500553_- Should be interesting. I've felt for a while now that the Palestinians needed to have the civil war that pundits always said would occur if the PA attempted to stop the terrorist factions . Now it appears the terrorists have won a (relatively) bloodless coup. Now is a moment of truth when either the leopard changes it's spots, or all illusions that they are ready to co-exist must be shattered, and then the rest of the world (TM) will have to decide, to paraphrase GWB, if they are with "us" or with the terrorists. In the mean time, it seems [...] 66015 79 24_Re: Equality was Poverty0_17_Smfgrappa@AOL.COM29_Fri, 27 Jan 2006 10:13:33 EST624_US-ASCII In a message dated 01/27/2006 9:24:56 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, gershon-keileh@013.NET writes:

Wal mart was fun but now it's back to work.

At $5.15 an hour with no benefits and the efforts of the union blocked, back to work at Walmart.

















------------------------------------------------------------------------- The HABONET mailing list is hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org, a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 66095 112 23_Re: Poverty and Walmart0_17_Smfgrappa@AOL.COM29_Fri, 27 Jan 2006 10:43:56 EST471_US-ASCII Debby is right.She has the good on WalMart. They are crooks. They are stealing from the taxpayers while pretending to be capitalists.

Ah yes, but many Walmart employees ARE on welfare. While the corporation's profits are in the billions, many of their employees qualify for food stamps and use Medicaid for their health insurance. In fact, Maryland just passed a law requiring large employers tyo spend a minimum of 8% on health insurtance benefits. [...] 66208 93 47_Re: [BULK] Jimmy Carter International Idiot Day0_23_rdsmith1957@COMCAST.NET31_Fri, 27 Jan 2006 16:36:52 +0000305_- This is an interesting post. It claims that there should be a holiday named for Jimmy Carter and that Carter is an idiot. Well one thing I know for absolutely certain, Jimmy Carter is not an idiot. Was this poster suggesting there ws something wrong with Carter observing the Palestinian election? [...] 66302 16 16_Re: Poor Trenton11_Noam Stopak21_nstopak@STARPOWER.NET31_Fri, 27 Jan 2006 11:50:01 -0500451_- You can find the story at http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5157037

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To unsubscribe email: HABONET-unsubscribe-request@SHAMASH.ORG 66319 448 25_Re: Palestinian Elections0_14_kbob24@AOL.COM31_Fri, 27 Jan 2006 12:27:20 -0500405_iso-8859-1 Hi Folks:

I don't forward too many articles here but so much is being written on this topic, I thought I would share one that is thoughtful and somewhat optimistic (can you believe that?) from MJ Rosenberg.

Ameinu put out a statement today on the elections, but I assume anyone who cares what Ameinu says already receives our newsletter or visits our site at www.ameinu.net. [...] 66768 68 50_Fw: Great Photos...Just keep clicking and enjoy!!!11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@SOCAL.RR.COM31_Fri, 27 Jan 2006 09:49:32 -0800524_iso-8859-1

Not particularly Jewish, but falls under the "hated not to share" department.

Steve



Subject: Fw: Great Photos...Just keep clicking and enjoy!!!





----- Original

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66837 1272 49_Fw: Jewish population by countries + total (est.)11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@SOCAL.RR.COM31_Fri, 27 Jan 2006 09:51:45 -0800692_iso-8859-1 FW: Jewish population by countries + total (est.) Steve sent:



Subject: Fw: Jewish population by countries + total (est.)













The following was passed along to me. Interesting if accurate within a few percentage points!

The Jewish Population of the World (2005)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Jewish Population By Region Top 50 Countries by Population

















Country

Population (2005E)

% Jewish

Estimated Jews

Afghanistan

29 928 987 [...] 68110 473 40_[QUAR] TNR - Yossi Klein Halevi on Hamas16_Elihu D. Davison25_elihu.davison@VERIZON.NET31_Fri, 27 Jan 2006 18:38:50 -0500509_us-ascii The New Republic Online THE RISE OF HAMAS AND THE FALL OF PALESTINE. End Game by Yossi Klein Halevi Only at TNR Online Post date: 01.26.06

Here then is the real asymmetry of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Precisely at the moment when a majority of the Israeli people has accepted not just the political necessity but moral legitimacy of a Palestinian state, the overwhelming majority of the Palestinian people empowers its most hateful and triumphalist ideology. [...] 68584 178 44_Re: [QUAR] TNR - Yossi Klein Halevi on Hamas12_Sue Liberman20_fiddlebach@YAHOO.COM31_Fri, 27 Jan 2006 16:26:07 -0800680_iso-8859-1 I would like to wish everyone on this list a Wal-Mart-less, Hamasless, full-of-kupah, poverty-less, peaceful SHabbat Shalom - sue

"Elihu D. Davison" wrote: The New Republic Online THE RISE OF HAMAS AND THE FALL OF PALESTINE. End Game by Yossi Klein Halevi Only at TNR Online Post date: 01.26.06

Here then is the real asymmetry of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Precisely at the moment when a majority of the Israeli people has accepted not just the political necessity but moral legitimacy of a Palestinian state, the overwhelming majority of the Palestinian people empowers its most hateful and triumphalist ideology. [...] 68763 25 13_Riots in Gaza11_Judy Gelman16_gelman@EROLS.COM31_Fri, 27 Jan 2006 22:48:24 -0500388_ISO-8859-1 SInce PA employment was allegedly was based on bribes and patronage and the PA was the major source of employment in Gaza, my intuition is that the Hamas victory threatens the jobs of virtually everyone working for the PA and that is the cause of the riots. However, I haven't seen or herd this mentioned anywhere. All-knowing Habonetters--what do you think of my theory? [...] 68789 47 17_Re: Riots in Gaza20_Lon & Shelly Ephraim16_cbma@VERIZON.NET31_Fri, 27 Jan 2006 23:23:11 -0500297_US-ASCII I believe that was pretty much said on the Diane Rehm Show this morning, if the PA is synonymous with Fatah. There were 3 guests, but I can only remember that one was Shibli ?, a U of MD professor, who's often on Middle East panels. Richard, my NPR mate, were you listening this AM? [...] 68837 55 17_Re: Riots in Gaza0_15_DebALev@AOL.COM29_Fri, 27 Jan 2006 23:40:17 EST501_US-ASCII Shelly, I try to catch Diane's show........it won't be on here in Seattle until midnight Pacific Time..........3 AM on the east coast.

"Be serious, be passionate, wake up!" Susan Sontag

------------------------------------------------------------------------- The HABONET mailing list is hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org, a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 68893 117 17_Re: Riots in Gaza0_14_kbob24@AOL.COM31_Sat, 28 Jan 2006 10:04:23 -0500405_us-ascii I heard a couple of relevant numbers during a briefing on Thursday.

There a total of 170,000 PA employees that will expect slaries next week and the PA treasury is virually empty. If the U.S. and EU don't transfer funds........

There are 60,000 members of the PA Security Forces as part of that number. They are all Fatah members and the people now paying the bills are Hamas. [...] 69011 105 14_A Real Project12_Sue Liberman20_fiddlebach@YAHOO.COM31_Sat, 28 Jan 2006 08:23:35 -0800552_iso-8859-1 In the spirit of "Shabbat"- and thinking a lot about the poverty in Israel, how about we-on this list- "adopt" a community like the federations do and work towards helping some area where we can be of help- to visit when we are in Israel, have a contact person there , etc etc...I lived in Ofakim for a year after the kibbutz, and actually loved it- and I loved the people. I often think about working somehow to do something from here to help with work, culture, etc....I don't think this is an impossible thing to do..we sit here and [...] 69117 733 57_Fw: Something everyone should see... WON'T BE ON THE NEWS11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@SOCAL.RR.COM31_Sat, 28 Jan 2006 09:42:48 -0800623_iso-8859-1 Message

Passing this along for those that would appreciate it.

Steve







--------------------------------------------------------------------------------









This statue currently stands outside the Iraqi palace, now home to the 4th Infantry division. It will eventually be shipped home and put in the memorial museum in Fort Hood, TX .





The statue was created by an Iraqi artist named Kalat, who for years was forced by Saddam Hussein to make the many hundreds of bronze busts of Saddam that dotted Baghdad. [...] 69851 403 62_Fwd: Fw: Something everyone should see... WON'T BE ON THE NEWS0_14_LHIAM1@AOL.COM29_Sat, 28 Jan 2006 13:48:05 EST380_US-ASCII



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To unsubscribe email: HABONET-unsubscribe-request@SHAMASH.ORG 70255 136 18_Re: A Real Project11_Judy Gelman16_gelman@EROLS.COM31_Sat, 28 Jan 2006 17:38:50 -0500585_ISO-8859-1 This is a wonderful idea--but will need some infrastructure to make it work. I believe that on the recent Ameinu trip, the group talked to some organizations on the ground in Israel that could help such an effort.

Judy

Sue Liberman wrote:

>In the spirit of "Shabbat"- and thinking a lot about >the poverty in Israel, how about we-on this list- >"adopt" a community like the federations do and work >towards helping some area where we can be of help- to >visit when we are in Israel, have a contact person >there , etc etc...I lived in Ofakim for a [...] 70392 210 18_Re: A Real Project0_14_kbob24@AOL.COM31_Sat, 28 Jan 2006 18:10:51 -0500494_us-ascii Judy, good timing. Yesterday we just put up information on the Ameinu website about our new Israeli partners. In terms of the issue of poverty, people should click on this link and read about the second organization listed, Yedid. Our mission visited two of their centers, Ashkelon and Ofakim, and were very impressed by their mission and activity. the Ameinu Israel Connections Committee is developing an action plan of things people can do to support their efforts. Stay tuned. [...] 70603 40 18_Re: A Real Project11_Sylvia Lask14_SMLBOV@AOL.COM29_Sat, 28 Jan 2006 19:36:06 EST409_US-ASCII I think your idea is great and keep me in mind if you come up with an idea. Enough talk. Sylvia Lask

------------------------------------------------------------------------- The HABONET mailing list is hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org, a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 70644 205 18_Re: A Real Project12_Sue Liberman20_fiddlebach@YAHOO.COM31_Sat, 28 Jan 2006 17:56:31 -0800600_iso-8859-1 I am not only talking about fiving money- but from our talents,,,,,sue

--- kbob24@AOL.COM wrote:

> Judy, good timing. Yesterday we just put up > information on the Ameinu website about our new > Israeli partners. In terms of the issue of poverty, > people should click on this link and read about the > second organization listed, Yedid. Our mission > visited two of their centers, Ashkelon and Ofakim, > and were very impressed by their mission and > activity. the Ameinu Israel Connections Committee is > developing an action plan of things people can do to > support [...] 70850 514 32_Fw: Homeland security - New tool14_Holtzer Family20_carmdave@URIM.ORG.IL31_Sun, 29 Jan 2006 16:45:59 +0200407_iso-8859-1











Homeland Security Bill passes

Just wanted to let you know the New Homeland Security Bill has passed. Things will be different now and Internet surfing as you know it will be tracked by what the FBI calls a "non-intrusive method." The FBI says you will not notice anything different.

For a demonstration, click on the link below: [...] 71365 664 56_Gilbert Achcar's guest editorial piece through Juan Cole13_Yuval Warshai21_warshai@SBCGLOBAL.NET31_Sun, 29 Jan 2006 12:02:45 -0500670_iso-8859-1 Considering the dishonest piece of right-wing venom from The New Republic posted here yesterday by Elihu Davison, the following piece, coming from the diametrically opposed politcal pole is much more truthful, coherent, and cogent overall. It also finally explained, to my own intellectual satisfaction at least, the real social and political rationale behind the political earthquake that has just shaken Palestine, Israel and the entire Middle East. The Hamas surprising upheaval in all its daunting consequences is first of all a reaction to Sharon's policies over the years since 2001 (and before his recent turnabout in the Gaza disengagement); but [...] 72030 495 18_Re: A Real Project0_14_kbob24@AOL.COM31_Sun, 29 Jan 2006 20:50:56 -0500485_us-ascii Sue:

I am guessing from your response that you missed the section on the website that described the different aspects of the relationship with Yedid and Nisped: Here it is:

"Activities include: people-to-people meetings; volunteerism in Israel; providing a channel for direct contributions; supporting grant requests made to US foundations and community organizations; public education and in-depth understanding of key issues in Israeli society and more." [...] 72526 235 18_Re: A Real Project12_Sue Liberman20_fiddlebach@YAHOO.COM31_Sun, 29 Jan 2006 18:23:58 -0800628_iso-8859-1 So I ask- what has been DONE???? Concretely- not just words...sue

--- kbob24@AOL.COM wrote:

> Sue: > > I am guessing from your response that you missed the > section on the website that described the different > aspects of the relationship with Yedid and Nisped: > Here it is: > > "Activities include: people-to-people meetings; > volunteerism in Israel; providing a channel for > direct contributions; supporting grant requests made > to US foundations and community organizations; > public education and in-depth understanding of key > issues in Israeli society and more." > > I am sure you will [...] 72762 555 18_Re: A Real Project0_14_kbob24@AOL.COM31_Sun, 29 Jan 2006 22:29:13 -0500608_us-ascii In response to Sue's question:

In December the Ameinu mission visited Yedid centers in Ashkelon and Ofakim and did some volunteer work in both locations and got a good understanding of the Yedid operation. Subsequently, Ameinu leadership met with the founder and president of Yedid and came to an agreement on work we can do together in areas of fundraising, advocacy and volunteering. The mission also visited with NISPED and their Bedouin activists in the Negev and discussed areas where we can be of help. We are now in the process of developing a more detailed action plan that will [...] 73318 68 22_Hamas meets Tom Lehrer8_Jon Baum19_jonbaum@SASA.ORG.IL31_Mon, 30 Jan 2006 17:30:23 +0200461_us-ascii

Doing the Islamist Rag!



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEQc2y3BR30

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To unsubscribe email: HABONET-unsubscribe-request@SHAMASH.ORG 73387 677 31_Fw: "Peaceful Nuclear Armament"11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@SOCAL.RR.COM31_Mon, 30 Jan 2006 09:28:12 -0800361_iso-8859-1

I couldn't click on this video, but the MEMRI link led to a bunch of good videos worth watching if ever you have the time.

Steve







"Peaceful Nuclear Armament"

Tonight on MEMRI TV, the chairman of the Union of Arab Lawyers comes out in favor of nuclear weapons for Iran, and all Arab countries: [...] 74065 804 48_Fw: Isn't democracy beautiful??? (great cartoon)11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@SOCAL.RR.COM31_Mon, 30 Jan 2006 09:30:09 -0800588_iso-8859-1 FW: Isn't democracy beautiful??? (great cartoon) For those that follow Carter's antics:

Steve









----- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2006 5:39 AM Subject: Isn't democracy beautiful??? (great cartoon)





------------------------------------------------------------------------- The HABONET mailing list is hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org, a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 74870 759 60_Re: Gilbert Achcar's guest editorial piece through Juan Cole11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@SOCAL.RR.COM31_Mon, 30 Jan 2006 09:47:28 -0800341_iso-8859-1 Just out of curiosity- What would be the percentage of people in Habonet that agree (for the most part) with Yuval Warshai and side with Juan Cole and Gilbert Achcar?

Second question: Have I once again messed up and misinterpreted a tongue-in-cheek letter to be seriously-intended? If so, my apologies to Mr. Warshai. [...] 75630 102 47_Re: [BULK] Jimmy Carter International Idiot Day0_26_Sharon_Gates@LONGBEACH.GOV31_Mon, 30 Jan 2006 09:47:51 -0800517_us-ascii I wish Carter had been an observer on the last US general election.

I don't understand what is wrong with guaranteeing free elections in the PA. Could you explain?

Sharon









Moshe Sheskin Sent by: Habonim Dror Alumni Virtual Machaneh 01/26/2006 11:46 PM Please respond to Habonim Dror Alumni Virtual Machaneh



To: HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG cc: Subject: [BULK] Jimmy Carter International Idiot Day [...] 75733 71 47_Re: [BULK] Jimmy Carter International Idiot Day12_amnon hadary22_gershon-keileh@013.NET31_Mon, 30 Jan 2006 20:27:58 +0200637_us-ascii Observation are in the eye of the beholder. Reservations in the eye of ticket sellers. Amnon >I wish Carter had been an observer on the last US general election. > >I don't understand what is wrong with guaranteeing free elections in the >PA. Could you explain? > >Sharon > > > >Moshe Sheskin >Sent by: Habonim Dror Alumni Virtual Machaneh > >01/26/2006 11:46 PM >Please respond to Habonim Dror Alumni Virtual Machaneh > > To: HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG > cc: > Subject: [BULK] Jimmy Carter International Idiot Day > > >Well, Jimmy Carter did it again. He virtually guaranteed free [...] 75805 42 60_Re: Gilbert Achcar's guest editorial piece through Juan Cole0_23_rdsmith1957@COMCAST.NET31_Mon, 30 Jan 2006 18:24:47 +0000382_- Certainly any article which includes the description of Sharon as a war criminal can not be accepted as 100% correct but there is much in the article that most certainly is true.

What we need, I suppose, is to find a Palestinian artist who is so happy the Israelis have come to occupy them that he builds a beautiful statue to honor them out of his extreme gratitude. [...] 75848 963 60_Re: Gilbert Achcar's guest editorial piece through Juan Cole8_Jon Baum19_jonbaum@SASA.ORG.IL31_Mon, 30 Jan 2006 20:27:25 +0200516_us-ascii Steve, with all due respect, I think that's a terrible idea. One of the great things about this list is the wide range of views and opinions expressed here and I don't see the point of "voting" on them. It's a form of intimidation. Personally, I often take the time to read articles or columns I know I'll disagree with because I feel that it keeps me sharp and one should "know one's opponent." You don't like what you read here? Delete it. Or write a reasonable rebuttal. But this isn't a democracy. [...] 76812 59 21_not Walmart but Exxon13_Moshe Sheskin23_moshe.sheskin@GMAIL.COM31_Mon, 30 Jan 2006 21:56:13 +0200627_ISO-8859-1 I think that we have said enough about Walmart. However, if Walmart is one way to vent our frustration, there are other large corporations which have affectour lives even more. I offer the following for your considerationl

http://www.exxposeexxon.com/movie

Enjoy, if you can.

Moshe Sheskin Hulda

------------------------------------------------------------------------- The HABONET mailing list is hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org, a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 76872 846 60_Re: Gilbert Achcar's guest editorial piece through Juan Cole13_Yuval Warshai21_warshai@SBCGLOBAL.NET31_Mon, 30 Jan 2006 15:45:44 -0500570_iso-8859-1 Mr. Klein,

You have not misunderstood this time. The piece and what it says, and the whole subject in general, is too serious to be making bad taste jokes about. I do not agree or endorse completely the piece I posted by any means, in the same manner that I assume that Elihu Davison does not agree or endorse completely the opinion he forwarded. These are probably the two extremes of the spectrum, as I said in my introduction. Richard Smith, as usual, has already put his finger on one of the most problematic assertions of the piece I posted. [...] 77719 785 31_Segev hits the nail on the head13_Yuval Warshai21_warshai@SBCGLOBAL.NET31_Mon, 30 Jan 2006 18:34:31 -0500575_iso-8859-1 I read the article below first in Hebrew. It really struck me as powerful, correct, and truthful. I completely agree with Mr. Segev, and I belong to the same generation of people that can be angry today, in his words, at the time that has been wasted all these years in the Israel/Palestine conflict. Enough with the occupation and enough with illegal settlements in the West Bank! I'm posting it below, both in Hebrew and in English (from today's Haaretz). ___ |Y| ^^^ P.S.- People who cannot read emails in HTML format won't be able to see the Hebrew. They [...] 78505 128 35_Re: Segev hits the nail on the head11_Noam Stopak21_nstopak@STARPOWER.NET31_Mon, 30 Jan 2006 20:49:44 -0500581_iso-8859-1 So I'm left wondering Yuval - how do we go about dividing the land with people who want the whole enchilada? While I have whole-heartedly supported a two state solution all my life, I don't see how we can ignore the evidence that the PLO, then the PA (both controlled by Fatah) and now Hamas, have never truly embraced co-existence with Israel. If we can't wait 25 years, how do we move forward today? Attempt to talk yes, but if the statements I've read recently are representative, I can't say I'm optimistic. Finance those advocating the destruction of Israel - [...] 78634 206 60_Re: Gilbert Achcar's guest editorial piece through Juan Cole11_Noam Stopak21_nstopak@STARPOWER.NET31_Mon, 30 Jan 2006 20:51:32 -0500613_iso-8859-1 Just out of curiosity, what would be the percentage of people in habonet that agree (for the most part) with Steve Klein and side with the various writers he forward with regularity, say, "Angela" for example.

Noam

p.s. this is an honest question and not an attempt to start even a small fracas over differences of opinion. p.p.s. actually it is a bald-faced attempt to show how silly I think Steve's message is, but perhaps saying so is too much honesty for some to handle. ----- Original Message ----- From: Steve Klein To: HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG Sent: Monday, January 30, 2006 12:47 [...] 78841 113 60_Re: Gilbert Achcar's guest editorial piece through Juan Cole11_Noam Stopak21_nstopak@STARPOWER.NET31_Mon, 30 Jan 2006 20:51:50 -0500544_iso-8859-1 Yeah I thought the war criminal description, at least in the absence of any mention of criminality on the part of any Arab parties to the conflict to be (more than a bit) over the top.

But Richard, I think you are setting the bar too high - Steve just needs to find a Palestinian artist willing to accept payment to do the deed. ----- Original Message ----- From: rdsmith1957@COMCAST.NET To: HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG Sent: Monday, January 30, 2006 1:24 PM Subject: Re: Gilbert Achcar's guest editorial piece through Juan Cole [...] 78955 139 25_Re: not Walmart but Exxon11_Noam Stopak21_nstopak@STARPOWER.NET31_Mon, 30 Jan 2006 22:37:09 -0500472_iso-8859-1 Yeah a timely mention Moshe, not only because of Exxon's earnings announcement, but also because of the story about the attempts to silence NASA's leading climate scientist (see http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/29/science/earth/29climate.html ). I've pretty much boycotted Exxon since the Valdez spill.

Noam ----- Original Message ----- From: Moshe Sheskin To: HABONET@SHAMASH.ORG Sent: Monday, January 30, 2006 2:56 PM Subject: not Walmart but Exxon [...] 79095 93 25_Re: not Walmart but Exxon0_17_Smfgrappa@AOL.COM29_Mon, 30 Jan 2006 22:47:43 EST486_US-ASCII In a message dated 01/30/2006 10:38:09 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, nstopak@STARPOWER.NET writes:

Yeah a timely mention Moshe, not only because of Exxon's earnings announcement, but also because of the story about the attempts to silence NASA's leading climate scientist (see _http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/29/science/earth/29climate.html_ (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/29/science/earth/29climate.html) ). I've pretty much boycotted Exxon since the Valdez spill. [...] 79189 209 25_Re: not Walmart but Exxon0_13_Mmxmm@AOL.COM29_Mon, 30 Jan 2006 22:50:20 EST715_UTF-8

Speaking of oil companies here's a few paragraphs from a lawsuit against Chevron to which I've become part of a class action suit...you might consider adding this one to your list.



Marc Margolis



1.This case arises as a result of a series of three brutal firearms attacks upon unarmed protesters and unarmed innocent citizens occurring in Nigeria between May 1998 and January 1999. In each, Defendant Chevron Corporation (formerly known as ChevronTexaco Corporation and referred to herein as “Chevron Corp.”), and/or defendant Chevron Investment, Inc. (formerly known as Chevron Overseas Petroleum, Inc., and ChevronTexaco Overseas Petroleum Inc. and referred to [...] 79399 218 25_Re: not Walmart but Exxon12_Jessica Bonn21_jessicab@BEZEQINT.NET31_Tue, 31 Jan 2006 09:16:14 +0200600_iso-8859-1 I also found the item about NASA scientist Hansen extremely disturbing - though it was encouraging to see it on the front page of the NYTimes (at least the online edition). It's depressing that although so many have boycotted Exxon and there are non-profits out to get it, Exxon is thriving. Stated otherwise, if 'money talks,' the recent earnings report is not a good advertisement for grassroots activism agains a multinational megacorp. Not trying hard enough? Recruit wildlife - like in the legends - to join our band? (I'll talk to king of the birds; who takes the polar bears)? [...] 79618 664 55_Gilbert Achcar's guest editorial piece though Juan Cole13_Yuval Warshai20_warshy@SBCGLOBAL.NET31_Sat, 28 Jan 2006 16:57:33 -0500670_iso-8859-1 Considering the dishonest piece of right-wing venom from The New Republic posted here earlier today by Elihu Davison, the following piece, coming from the diametrically opposed politcal pole is much more truthful, coherent, and cogent overall. It also finally explained, to my own intellectual satisfaction at least, the real social and political rationale behind the political earthquake that has just shaken Palestine, Israel and the entire Middle East. The Hamas surprising upheaval in all its daunting consequences is first of all a reaction to Sharon's policies over the years since 2001 (and before his recent turnabout in the Gaza disengagement); [...] 80283 227 26_Better visit Spain soon...8_Jon Baum19_jonbaum@SASA.ORG.IL31_Tue, 31 Jan 2006 22:32:20 +0200569_windows-1255 While they still speak Spanish.



Hamas demands return of Seville in internet children's magazine



Spain Herald

The children's website Al Fateh, property of the Palestinian terrorist group Hamas, demands in its most recent issue the return of the Spanish city of Seville to the "lost paradise" of Al Andalus, as the Muslim part of Spain was called during its existence between 711 and 1492. The web magazine, whose name means "conqueror," says it is for "the young builders of the future." [...] 80511 59 35_Re: Segev hits the nail on the head0_13_JLCAA@AOL.COM29_Tue, 31 Jan 2006 19:49:19 EST537_US-ASCII Yuval: If the press reports are to be believed - and that's a big "if" - Israel approached Hamas through a third party to open a discussion about a Palestinian State, borders, etc. -- on condition: That Hamas lays down its arms and recognizes Israel's right to exist.

Hamas refused the offer. Specifically they refused to give up the right to wage armed warfare to regain holy Islamic land. The most they would talk about is an extension of the hudna for 10-15 years, if Israel withdraws to the 1948 armistice line. [...] 80571 92 35_Re: Segev hits the nail on the head0_23_rdsmith1957@COMCAST.NET30_Wed, 1 Feb 2006 00:53:50 +0000575_- Well at least they appear to be honest.

-------------- Original message ---------------------- From: JLCAA@AOL.COM > Yuval: > If the press reports are to be believed - and that's a big "if" - Israel > approached Hamas through a third party to open a discussion about a Palestinian > State, borders, etc. -- on condition: That Hamas lays down its arms and > recognizes Israel's right to exist. > > Hamas refused the offer. Specifically they refused to give up the right to > wage armed warfare to regain holy Islamic land. The most they would talk about > is an [...] 80664 874 35_Re: Segev hits the nail on the head11_Noam Stopak21_nstopak@STARPOWER.NET31_Tue, 31 Jan 2006 19:56:07 -0500371_iso-8859-1 Not all that surprising for an opening position really. If they were to accept the conditions offered, what would they have left to give in the negotiation?

Still I agree that my confidence level is low.

Just about lost my breakfast when I read this in the Washington Post this morning...

Noam

+++

What Hamas Is Seeking [...] 81539 522 35_Re: Segev hits the nail on the head13_Yuval Warshai21_warshai@SBCGLOBAL.NET31_Tue, 31 Jan 2006 20:49:15 -0500618_iso-8859-1 Noam, Avi, Richard, and everyone else (who has the time and inclination to maybe read a 'longish' answer),

Good question. I firmly believe that if Rabin hadn't been assassinated by the religious fanatic messianic settlement Jews of Gush Emunim and their supporters, we would be much closer to peace today than we are. At the time of his assassination, and for a long time after it too, everyone kept believing (or rather wishing) that the murderer had not really accomplished his goal, i.e. derailing and reversing the peace process. It was only after Ariel Sharon walked on the Haram al-Sharif [...]