1 SHAMASH.ORG /usr/www/wwwhc/listserv/archives/habonet December 2003 2 176 64_Fwd: looking for Chanukah stories without the miracle of the oil0_13_SC523@aol.com28_Mon, 1 Dec 2003 02:18:58 EST518_ISO-8859-1

In a message dated 11/26/03 11:16:07 AM, Sharon_Gates@longbeach.gov writes:



> > I have long felt that the miracle of the Maccabees' victory over the Greeks > was more meaningful than the oil lasting 8 days. Unfortunately, just about > every children's story that I have found emphasizes the miracle of the oil. > Can anyone out in Habonet-land recommend a Chanukah story (for > elementary-school-aged kids) where the victory over tyranny is the prime focus? > > Sharon > Sharon, [...] 179 40 68_Re: Fwd: looking for Chanukah stories without the miracle of the oil20_Naomi Goldberg Honor18_naomijgh@yahoo.com36_Mon, 1 Dec 2003 08:17:41 -0800 (PST)397_us-ascii

Aliyah and those interested --

Following is the citation for a book which MAY be the one Aliyah described. Her email rang a bell with me, but this one is checked out of the library just now, so I can't check to see if it's the one.

Feder, Harriet K.

TITLE Judah who always said, "No!" / written by Harriet K. Feder ; illustrated by Katherine Janus Kahn. [...] 220 111 19_Up Against the Wall12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Mon, 01 Dec 2003 22:06:34 +0200588_us-ascii Haverim/ot Just minutes after the tzanhanim "liberated " East Jerusalem and reached the Western Wall a short bearded man in uniform came running up with a shofar in one hand and a torah scroll in the other. Shlomo Goren, chief rabbi of the IDF, cut loose with a historic riff on his ram horn. Why historic? Because Jews had been prevented from blowing their own horn at the kotel maybe since the destruction of the second commonwealth two millenniums ago. There was great exhilaration in the air so most secular Jews didn't give much thought to Goren's expropriation of the [...] 332 1815 53_A French intellectual on America and anti-americanism13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il30_Mon, 1 Dec 2003 23:54:10 +0200425_windows-1255 Europe's Anti-American Obsession By Jean-Francois Revel



What picture of American society is likely to be imprinted on the consciousness of average Europeans? Given what they read or hear every day from intellectuals and politicians, they can hardly have any choice in the unpleasant particulars, especially if they happen to be French. The picture repeatedly sketched for them is as follows: [...] 2148 55 24_Anti-Americanism Article14_Kleins Designs26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com30_Mon, 1 Dec 2003 15:42:36 -0800161_iso-8859-1 Jonathon

Thank you for sending the Revel article! It was one of the most riveting pieces of thinking I've encountered for a while.

Steve 2204 48 11_Here it is!0_13_SC523@aol.com28_Mon, 1 Dec 2003 23:31:21 EST471_US-ASCII It's called The Hanukkah Story (that's the spelling) by Marilyn Hirsch. I tried to find it on the web, i.e. for purchase, and I'm not an expert at that. If someone can find it, please tell all of us where you found it. I definitely found mention of it in several Temple libraries and it was the mostly highly praised version of the story by Hebrew Union College Education Dept. Chair Isa Aron- but I couldn't find where to purchase it. Someone please help. [...] 2253 206 15_RE: Here it is!0_25_batel_libes@earthlink.net30_Mon, 1 Dec 2003 22:33:39 -0800648_US-ASCII Amazon says the book is out of print, but it has a few used copies available. And, you can donate part of your purchase to Habonim.

Batel

-----Original Message----- From: owner-habonet@shamash.org [mailto:owner-habonet@shamash.org]On Behalf Of SC523@aol.com Sent: Monday, December 01, 2003 8:31 PM To: Habonet@shamash.org Subject: Here it is!

It's called The Hanukkah Story (that's the spelling) by Marilyn Hirsch. I tried to find it on the web, i.e. for purchase, and I'm not an expert at that. If someone can find it, please tell all of us where you found it. I definitely found mention of it in several Temple [...] 2460 139 19_THE CHILDREN OF GOD11_Phil Safier17_psafier@elixa.com31_Tue, 02 Dec 2003 07:58:23 -0700532_us-ascii On the Road In Palestine FROM: JOHN ROSS johnross@igc.org

THE CHILDREN OF GOD

EIN ABUS OCCUPIED PALESTINE (Nov. 6th) -- The Children of God charged down the bare brown hillside swinging thick clubs and hurling large lethal stones, war-whooping in Hebrew their harsh curses upon the people of this lacerated land. I was standing with a Palestinian farmer and his family under a freshly-picked olive tree when they came for us and thus, I suppose, guilty of being a race traitor in their perverted vision. [...] 2600 216 12_The Guardian3_leo18_leodie@isdn.net.il30_Tue, 2 Dec 2003 17:56:13 +0200494_- From: Medal, Anita S [Anita.Medal@usa.xerox.com] Sent: 01 December 2003 17:15 Subject: FW: Top Writer Quits 'Guardian' in Protest Against its anti-Israe l Stance

Subject: Top Writer Quits 'Guardian' in Protest Against its anti-Israel Stance

The maverick British journalist Julie Burchill, who is a veritable household name in the UK, has decided to quit 'The Guardian' because of what she perceives as its baised views on Israel. Her remarkable final column appears below. [...] 2817 39 15_Re: Here it is!0_15_Emabear@aol.com28_Tue, 2 Dec 2003 11:21:18 EST186_US-ASCII I'm guessing that all you East Coasters got there before we woke up this morning. any other suggestions as Amazon doesn't even list it this a.m. in LA Ellen (A Bubbie of seven!) 2857 48 23_RE: THE CHILDREN OF GOD12_Stopak, Noam20_NStopak@orionsci.com30_Tue, 2 Dec 2003 12:03:56 -0500445_- Hi Phil,

I understand most of this piece (not to say I agree with much of it), but I was completely taken aback when I read "Today, there are 195 settlements in Israel proper and the occupied territories, with a total population of 200,000 (twice that if east Jerusalem is factored in.)" What does Ross mean by "settlements in Israel proper" I wonder? What does he consider "Israel proper?" What do _you_ consider "Israel proper?" [...] 2906 108 16_Re: The Guardian13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il30_Tue, 2 Dec 2003 19:12:44 +0200613_iso-8859-1 Leo, here's Julie Burchill's column:

Good, bad and ugly

Julie Burchill Saturday November 29, 2003 The Guardian

As you might have heard, I'm leaving the Guardian next year for the Times, having finally been convinced that my evil populist philistinism has no place in a publication read by so many all-round, top-drawer plaster saints. (Well, that and the massive wad they've waved at me.) Once there, I will compose as many love letters to the likes of Mr Murdoch and Pres Bush as my black little heart desires, leaving those who have always objected to my presence on such a [...] 3015 22 15_Re: Here it is!5_Batel25_batel_libes@earthlink.net42_Tue, 2 Dec 2003 10:08:08 -0800 (GMT-08:00) 3038 1037 23_Anti-Semitism in the EU0_13_JLCAA@aol.com28_Tue, 2 Dec 2003 15:49:48 EST507_UTF-8 The “Manifestations of Anti-Semitism in the EU” report by European Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia (EUMC) was suppressed by the EU as being too incendiary. European Jewry was extremely angry that the report was not issued and obtained a copy which it has made public. The full report is available from the CRIF - the organization that represents French Jewry -- at http://www.crif.org/index.php?menu=5&dossier=33&id_doss=2021. What follows is the Executive Summary of this report. [...] 4076 51 23_Re: THE CHILDREN OF GOD13_richard smith19_rdsmith1957@msn.com30_Tue, 2 Dec 2003 15:55:32 -050011_iso-8859-1 4128 140 23_Re: THE CHILDREN OF GOD12_Stopak, Noam20_NStopak@orionsci.com30_Tue, 2 Dec 2003 16:48:04 -0500290_- Hi Richard,

I don't think that I need to agree with the thugs who beat Arabs who are harvesting their crops in order to object to the article that Phil sent or to ask questions about the views expressed in the article that lead me to question the veracity of the whole thing. [...] 4269 129 24_Re: THE CHILDREN OF GOD?12_Jessica Bonn21_jessicab@bezeqint.net30_Wed, 3 Dec 2003 00:15:58 +0200502_windows-1255 Here come the Galil warriors - we love it when the Mosh camp is divided. For example, no one stole my virtual mailbox, making it possible for me to respond (against my better judgement) to the latest veida resolutions. Even though the world is waiting for Habonim's latest resultion on Ross, RHR and Richard, why don't we table everything until next time (except the Nestle boycott) and get back to the important issues on the Habonet. But until we do, here's a proposal for Richard: [...] 4399 115 22_Fw: Interview With God14_Kleins Designs26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com30_Tue, 2 Dec 2003 17:01:21 -0800429_Windows-1252 For the some of you that might like this, it was a shame not to send it along.

Steve



----- Original Message ----- From: Marcia Plager To: Steve Klein Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2003 4:56 PM Subject: Fw: Interview With God





----- Original Message ----- From: David Robb To: Undisclosed-Recipient:; Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2003 3:43 PM Subject: Interview With God [...] 4515 62 26_Re: Fw: Interview With God11_Judy Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Tue, 02 Dec 2003 20:32:53 -0500330_windows-1252 Dear Steve,

Thank you for sharing this cultural insight into pop American religious culutre. How sad to think that people would waste time believing in a god whose most profound thoughts are as bland and superficial as a schmalty Hallmark card authored by Rod McKuen.

Warmly, Judy Gelman



4578 88 26_Re: Fw: Interview With God14_Kleins Designs26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com30_Tue, 2 Dec 2003 17:46:54 -0800485_Windows-1252 Howdja like the photography? ----- Original Message ----- From: Judy Gelman To: habonet@shamash.org Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2003 5:32 PM Subject: Re: Fw: Interview With God



Dear Steve,

Thank you for sharing this cultural insight into pop American religious culutre. How sad to think that people would waste time believing in a god whose most profound thoughts are as bland and superficial as a schmalty Hallmark card authored by Rod McKuen. [...] 4667 347 38_Daniel Gordis/ Deja-Vu, All Over Again11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org30_Tue, 2 Dec 2003 20:23:37 -0600301_ISO-8859-1

Deja Vu, All Over Again Daniel Gordis 12.2.02

Micha and I were sitting at the dining room table a couple of days ago. He was doing some homework, and I was reading. Out of the blue, he looked up at me and asked, "Do you think I'll still have asthma when I'm a grownup?" [...] 5015 110 26_Re: Fw: Interview With God11_Judy Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Tue, 02 Dec 2003 21:52:24 -0500633_windows-1252 Nice photography! Judy

Kleins Designs wrote:

> Howdja like the photography? > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Judy Gelman > To: habonet@shamash.org > Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2003 5:32 PM > Subject: Re: Fw: Interview With God > > Dear Steve, > > Thank you for sharing this cultural insight into pop American > religious culutre. How sad to think that people would waste time > believing in a god whose most profound thoughts are as bland and > superficial as a schmalty Hallmark card authored by Rod McKuen. > > Warmly, > Judy Gelman > [...] 5126 62 26_Re: Fw: Interview With God13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il30_Wed, 3 Dec 2003 07:30:48 +0200339_windows-1252 Personally, I would have asked him why it is that the Eagles have never won a Superbowl.

By the way Steve, if you liked the photographs in the "interview", they were lifted from Webshots.com, a free download for pictures you can use for your desktop or as a screensaver: http://www.webshots.com/homepage.html

Jon 5189 72 26_RE: Fw: Interview With God12_Stopak, Noam20_NStopak@orionsci.com30_Wed, 3 Dec 2003 09:49:21 -0500369_- I believe it is because upon their hats they wear the galil symbol.

At least the Redskins win when there is a strike. Who says unions no longer serve a useful purpose?

-----Original Message----- From: Jonathan Baum [mailto:jonbaum@sasa.org.il] Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2003 12:31 AM To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: Re: Fw: Interview With God [...] 5262 46 31_Arabic version of Geneva Accord11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org30_Wed, 3 Dec 2003 09:17:45 -0600616_us-ascii http://images.maariv.co.il/channels/1/ART/599/472.html Arabic Version of "Geneva Accord" Differs from English Version - Jackie Hogi (Maariv-Hebrew ) The Arabic-language version of the "Geneva Accord" printed in the PA differs in a number of paragraphs from the binding English version, according to Hassan Harisha, chairman of the PA parliament's oversight agency. "What was published in Arabic doesn't truly reflect the agreement and this is a great insult to the Palestinian citizen. This is a clear fraud," he said. He added that the Arabic version was distributed throughout the PA at EU expense . [...] 5309 94 26_Re: Fw: Interview With God14_Kleins Designs26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com30_Wed, 3 Dec 2003 09:19:10 -0800514_Windows-1252 Thanks!

Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: Jonathan Baum To: habonet@shamash.org Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2003 9:30 PM Subject: Re: Fw: Interview With God



Personally, I would have asked him why it is that the Eagles have never won a Superbowl.

By the way Steve, if you liked the photographs in the "interview", they were lifted from Webshots.com, a free download for pictures you can use for your desktop or as a screensaver: http://www.webshots.com/homepage.html 5404 53 7_Kumsitz13_richard smith19_rdsmith1957@msn.com30_Wed, 3 Dec 2003 16:32:44 -050080_iso-8859-1 Anyone in the Balto/Washington area interested in doing a kumsitz (is 5458 42 11_Re: Kumsitz19_Orit Lowy Chicherio16_oritil@yahoo.com36_Wed, 3 Dec 2003 14:05:29 -0800 (PST)290_us-ascii Way interested. Orit

richard smith wrote:Anyone in the Balto/Washington area interested in doing a kumsitz (is that how you spell it?). Why should the New Yorkers have all the fun?





--------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? 5501 88 5_tikun13_pearl skolnik25_pskolnik@netvision.net.il31_Thu, 04 Dec 2003 00:19:46 +0200537_windows-1255 I recall seeing a letter in Habonet saying that Sinai Tor murdered an Arab and was let free. This is patently NOT true and he was never in jail for murder.

Re: the "cut down olive trees": Today I saw a picture of an Arab next to olive trees in the orchard claimed to have been chopped down by settlers. 1) Keren Kayemet foresters went to inspect the allegations and found that the trees were trimmed on the branches and that is clearly seen in the pictures on the front page of the Ma'ariv paper I saw it in: if [...] 5590 231 9_Re: tikun11_Judy Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Wed, 03 Dec 2003 18:25:41 -0500520_windows-1255 Dear Pearl,

You write:

> Re: the "cut down olive trees": > Today I saw a picture of an Arab next to olive trees in the orchard > claimed to have been chopped down by settlers. > 1) Keren Kayemet foresters went to inspect the allegations and found > that the trees were trimmed on the branches and that is clearly seen > in the pictures on the front page of the Ma'ariv paper I saw it in: > if someone cuts down 600 trees, as claimed, he is not going to trim > each branch on the tree and [...] 5822 43 11_Re: Kumsitz0_15_Marshlf@aol.com28_Wed, 3 Dec 2003 22:10:27 EST130_US-ASCII love to.....actually there have been a few around here i go to at which i see some habofolk. but count us in!

lisa 5866 83 11_Re: Kumsitz12_Esther Cohen22_richard.steacy@gte.net30_Wed, 3 Dec 2003 22:20:54 -0500348_iso-8859-1 definitely interested in attending a kumsitz! -esther (cohen) ----- Original Message ----- From: richard smith To: habonet Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2003 4:32 PM Subject: Kumsitz



Anyone in the Balto/Washington area interested in doing a kumsitz (is that how you spell it?). Why should the New Yorkers have all the fun? 5950 80 11_Re: Kumsitz12_Jessica Bonn21_jessicab@bezeqint.net30_Thu, 4 Dec 2003 14:44:45 +0200311_iso-8859-1 What about a J"m kumsitz? ----- Original Message ----- From: Marshlf@aol.com To: habonet@shamash.org Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2003 5:10 AM Subject: Re: Kumsitz



love to.....actually there have been a few around here i go to at which i see some habofolk. but count us in!

lisa 6031 199 9_Re: tikun12_Jessica Bonn21_jessicab@bezeqint.net30_Thu, 4 Dec 2003 14:52:07 +0200577_windows-1255 I apologize for the error re Tor's reason for being jailed. The error, however, does not detract from my main points. He and his cronies are no lovers of democracy or peace. They are also violent racists. I can't understand you - I can conclude only that you support them, or you are way out of touch. Re trees - There is plenty of documented evidence regarding trees cut down by settlers, and worse. So what if you have identified one case of wilfull misrepresentation- you will find plenty on both sides. I don't remember writing about a rabbis conference. [...] 6231 180 9_Re: tikun13_pearl skolnik25_pskolnik@netvision.net.il31_Thu, 04 Dec 2003 22:08:12 +0200568_windows-1255 I am sorry, Judy, but I do know trees have been cut down all over Israel because the groves were used to mask terrorists. I have often felt badly for the farmer whose groves were used to initiate and perpetrate attacks against Israel, for afterwards the army did indeed destroy the groves as a lesson, and also so that they could not be used again for such purposes. Usually, though, my pity went out to the Jews murdered by the terrorists hiding in the groves, rather than to those who perpetrated the crime. I have also listened to Asherman speak, [...] 6412 167 26_Re: tikun reply to jessica13_pearl skolnik25_pskolnik@netvision.net.il31_Thu, 04 Dec 2003 22:15:31 +0200537_windows-1255 re your apology about Sinai Tor': if someone is accused of being a murderer on a public list and you know it is not true, it is only right to point out the error. That is a far cry from supporting him. Condemning a person for something he did not do is wrong, especially on a public list. Maybe YOU are out of touch. Re the trees: you make light of an accusation that is going around the world and causing damage to Israel's name. "So what...?" you ask. so what if there is willful misrepresentation of one case? Well, [...] 6580 153 45_=?iso-8859-1?B?4fLw6envOiBUaGUgR3VhcmRpYW4=?=5_marks25_molieric@netvision.net.il31_Thu, 04 Dec 2003 22:41:00 +0200655_iso-8859-1 Dear Jonathan,

This is one of the very best and articulite articles that I have read on the subject of anti-Semitism, recently. Keep them coming.

Shabbath Shalom, Mollie Marx ----- Original Message ----- From: Jonathan Baum To: Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2003 7:12 PM Subject: Re: The Guardian



> Leo, here's Julie Burchill's column: > > Good, bad and ugly > > Julie Burchill > Saturday November 29, 2003 > The Guardian > > As you might have heard, I'm leaving the Guardian next year for the Times, > having finally been convinced that my evil populist philistinism [...] 6734 30 9_Re: tikun11_Judy Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Thu, 04 Dec 2003 17:52:27 -0500537_us-ascii Dear Pearl,

Are you comparing the destruction of trees to sheep rustling because sheep rustling is the official policy of the PA? If so, under what conditions? And what is your proof? If not, why are you raising it in this context?

Judy

> >

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 6765 28 7_kumsitz11_Lon Ephraim14_cbma@erols.com31_Thu, 04 Dec 2003 21:18:44 -0500536_us-ascii

Hi, Richard

We had one a few years ago in Balto that was not hugely attended but was a lot of fun. And we have a pretty good mailing list since the reunion. I'd be happy to help in planning it. (Should we call it "A Mighty Ruach"?)

Shelly

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 6794 77 9_Re: tikun13_pearl skolnik25_pskolnik@netvision.net.il31_Fri, 05 Dec 2003 08:32:37 +0200539_iso-8859-1 judy, I knew the people personally. The owners of the sheep knew who stole the sheep, actually tracing them to the thieves, and in both cases the army and police told them to leave it alone. I wrote about it and the other cases because you have to see things in an overall light. There is a war going on, and both sides suffer. Some lose trees, their parnasa, and others lose their lives, their parnasa. I can feel for both sides believe me. I do believe that there are innocent sufferers. ( I still am thinking of the two [...] 6872 331 26_Re: tikun reply to jessica12_Jessica Bonn21_jessicab@bezeqint.net30_Fri, 5 Dec 2003 12:06:08 +0200348_windows-1255 Pearl - I welcome any clarification of the facts.

I object to manipulation of such clarification to serve a conclusion that I believe to be false.

"So what" refers to your conclusion, not to the false accusation against Israel, which disturbs me deeply, as did the cries of "massacre" following Operation D. Shield. [...] 7204 157 54_History Comes Rushing In: An author interview/ Forward11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org30_Fri, 5 Dec 2003 10:10:08 -0600629_ISO-8859-1

History Comes Rushing In: An Author Interview Last week, A.B. Yehoshua sat down with the Forward to discuss "The Liberated Bride," his ambitious new novel weaving together influences such as William Faulkner and S. Y. Agnon along with "One Thousand and One Nights" and "The Dybbuk." A soft-spoken yet passionate speaker, with a shock of gray hair and lively, deep-set eyes, the 67-year-old author calls to mind none other than a composite of his own best protagonists. The author of seven novels and two story collections, Yehoshua has been referred to as Israel's Faulkner. His early works were set very [...] 7362 97 27_Fences are for Stolen Goods12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Fri, 05 Dec 2003 22:50:24 +0200664_us-ascii Haverot/im I tried several times to send the article "Jerusalem's borders are being redrawn" from Ha'aretz of Tues. Dec.3. I suspect that they didn't pass the border checkpoint of my computer non-skill. So I'm going to try sending its URL. http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/367631.html What emerges is a repeated land grab masquerading as security. This is me writing now not the Ha'aretz reporter. Depending on one's orientation after the stunningly unexpected conquest of Jordanian held Palestine in 1967 (it really wasn't part of the IDF battle plan ) Jerusalem was treated as a windfall or as God's guidance in history. Suddenly the wise, [...] 7460 255 55_Article in LA Times about kibbutz and the "settlements"0_14_KBob24@aol.com28_Fri, 5 Dec 2003 17:42:13 EST399_US-ASCII Jeffry Mallow circulated this and I thought people here would find it interesting.

Shabbat Shalom,

Ken A piece from the LA Times:



Kibbutzim Fall, Settlements Rise -- and Israel Loses By Jo-Ann Mort Jo-Ann Mort is co-author (with Gary Brenner) of "Our Hearts Invented a Place: Can Kibbutzim Survive in Today's Israel?" November 30, 2003 / Los Angeles Times [...] 7716 162 24_Kibbutz Metsuba-Bankrupt13_moshe sheskin24_moshes7@netvision.net.il55_Sat, 06 Dec 2003 04:27:44 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)634_iso-8859-1 Kibbutz Metsuba-BANKRUPT

A few weeks ago an article appeared in the Yediot Achronot informing us about the collapse of Kibbutz Metsuba. Metsuba, a member of Kibbutz Artzi, found itself in financial difficulty and the article was mostly based on interviews with members. In essence, the collapse of the factory with a debt of 45 million shekel was caused by a supplier who petitioned the court under the bankruptcy law. What followed was additional petitions by suppliers who wanted to assure that their rights under the law would be protected. Since the factory was not incorporated, the total debt became part [...] 7879 57 28_Re: Kibbutz Metsuba-Bankrupt14_Holtzer Family20_carmdave@urim.org.il30_Sat, 6 Dec 2003 11:41:27 +0200218_iso-8859-1 Anyone intereseted in financially helping another kibbutz - Urim, can send their checks payable to David Holtzer, address - Kibbutz Urim, Mobile Post, Negev, Israel...................





7937 116 23_Julie Burchill, part II13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il30_Sat, 6 Dec 2003 12:15:55 +0200352_windows-1255 Here's the second installment of Julie Burchill's columns on anti-semitism. It's a shame she's leaving the Guardian; she's one of the few voices of sanity writing for that paper. Oh well, I guess I'll have to start reading the Times.



The hate that shames us

Julie Burchill Saturday December 6, 2003 The Guardian [...] 8054 167 20_The Liberated author11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org30_Sat, 6 Dec 2003 07:41:56 -0600811_ISO-8859-1

The Liberated Author In His Newest Novel, A.B. Yehoshua Returns to His Arab Characters

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Liberated Bride By A.B. Yehoshua Harcourt, 568 pages, $27.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------





By Susan Miron >From the beginning of his career, the Israeli novelist A.B. Yehoshua has examined the complex relationship between Israeli Jews and Arabs, most notably in his 1964 novella, "Facing the Forests," and his early novel, "The Lover," set in Israel after the l973 war. By the late l980s, however, Yehoshua deemed it impossible at that moment in time to portray an Arab as an independent, credible character, and declared he [...] 8222 90 11_Re: Kumsitz17_Annette Bar-Cohen22_barcohen@starpower.net30_Sat, 6 Dec 2003 08:58:31 -0500306_iso-8859-1 We would be happy to be part of planning a kumsitz in the Wash/Balto area - let us know what to do next. I'd offer my house if DC were an option. Anat and Avi Bar-Cohen ----- Original Message ----- From: richard smith To: habonet Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2003 4:32 PM Subject: Kumsitz [...] 8313 86 11_Re: Kumsitz14_Allan Pristoop17_cpristoo@bcpl.net30_Sat, 6 Dec 2003 20:20:54 -0500292_iso-8859-1 I am always interested in singing, shmuzing, and noshing. Allan S. Pristoop ----- Original Message ----- From: richard smith To: habonet Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2003 4:32 PM Subject: Kumsitz



Anyone in the Balto/Washington area interested in doing a kumsitz (is 8400 750 71_=?windows-1250?B?5PLh+OQ6IENOTiBBTk5PVU5DRVMgV09SU1QgVklSVVMgRVZFUg==?=5_marks25_molieric@netvision.net.il31_Sun, 07 Dec 2003 21:12:39 +0200396_windows-1250 Hi All,

Is the following announcement true or false?

Am enjoying the jokes and interesting articles. Please keep them coming.

Shalom Rav, Mollie Marx ----- Original Message ----- From: Helen Gold To: Baruch & Daveeda Finkelstein ; tanzman ; Sema Schwager ; Molly Eric Marx Sent: Monday, December 07, 2020 5:35 PM Subject: Fw: CNN ANNOUNCES WORST VIRUS EVER [...] 9151 1060 70_=?windows-1250?Q?Re:_=E4=F2=E1=F8=E4:_CNN_ANNOUNCES_WORST_VIRUS_EVER?=20_Gayle, Mark and Ayah18_sarazen@rogers.com30_Sun, 7 Dec 2003 14:13:50 -0500505_windows-1250 This is a hoax that has been around for some time.... For debunking, see: http://securityresponse.symantec.com/avcenter/venc/data/pf/virtual.card.for.you.html

Gayle Charach ----- Original Message ----- From: marks To: habonet@shamash.org Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2003 2:12 PM Subject: : CNN ANNOUNCES WORST VIRUS EVER



Hi All,

Is the following announcement true or false?

Am enjoying the jokes and interesting articles. Please keep them coming. [...] 10212 50 75_Re: =?windows-1250?B?5PLh+OQ6IENOTiBBTk5PVU5DRVMgV09SU1QgVklSVVMgRVZFUg==?=0_15_DebALev@aol.com28_Sun, 7 Dec 2003 14:51:34 EST170_US-ASCII This is a hoax.

You can check this stuff out easily at snopes.com

For more info about this one, go to http://www.snopes.com/computer/virus/card.htm 10263 703 27_The Big Mehitzah in the Sky12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Mon, 08 Dec 2003 21:58:00 +0200627_us-ascii Like a child with a proverbial clock we Jews take apart everything making us highly analytical. Then we erect mehitzah-like barriers between the parts, ultimately sanctifying the divisions. It started with the creation - sea and dry land, heaven and earth night and day, vochahdik secular days, and sanctified Shabbat. Did I mention women and men or three castes of Jews: cohanim leviim and plain jane-yisraelim. The peak of specialness is of course our division of mankind into them and us: the chosen people This manichaean notion runs counter to a much more modern wish/belief sometimes called the six degrees [...] 10967 57 35_WSJ/ The U.N.'s Dirty Little Secret11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org30_Mon, 8 Dec 2003 19:43:49 -0600555_us-ascii TURTLE BAY DISPATCH

The U.N.'s Dirty Little Secret The international body refuses to condemn anti-Semitism.

BY ANNE BAYEFSKY Monday, December 8, 2003 12:01 a.m. EST

Last week, the U.N. once again proved itself incapable of rising to the moral challenges embraced in its founding Charter: "tolerance," "the dignity and worth of the human person" and "equal rights." A draft resolution on anti-Semitism--which would have been a first in the U.N.'s 58-year history--was withdrawn in the face of Arab and Muslim opposition. [...] 11025 88 103_=?iso-8859-1?B?4fLw6envOiBSZTrk8uH45DogQ05OIEFOTk9VTkNFUyBXT1JTVCA=?= =?iso-8859-1?B?VklSVVMgRVZFUg==?=5_marks25_molieric@netvision.net.il31_Tue, 09 Dec 2003 17:28:17 +0200360_iso-8859-1

----- Original Message ----- From: DebALev@aol.com To: habonet@shamash.org Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2003 9:51 PM Subject: Re:: CNN ANNOUNCES WORST VIRUS EVER



This is a hoax.

You can check this stuff out easily at snopes.com

For more info about this one, go to http://www.snopes.com/computer/virus/card.htm 11114 1133 99_=?windows-1250?B?4fLw6envOiDk8uH45DogQ05OIEFOTk9VTkNFUyBXT1JTVCBWSVJVUyBF?= =?windows-1250?B?VkVS?=5_marks25_molieric@netvision.net.il31_Tue, 09 Dec 2003 17:33:13 +0200326_windows-1250 Dear Debby, Gayle, Mark and Ayah,

Thank you so much for your prompt responds. I get so many of these hoxasthat it makes my head spin. Debby, I will go into the site (snopes) on hoxas, tonight.

The inter-reaction between the readers is a good reason for staying on habonet.

All the best, [...] 12248 53 49_Fw: BBC E-mail: Arab wins Israeli reality TV show14_Kleins Designs26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com30_Tue, 9 Dec 2003 10:39:34 -0800614_iso-8859-1

----- Original Message ----- From: "darya" To: Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2003 5:56 PM Subject: BBC E-mail: Arab wins Israeli reality TV show



darya saw this story on BBC News Online and thought you should see it.

** Message ** alternative roadmap to peace?

** Arab wins Israeli reality TV show ** Firas Khoury is everything you would expect from the winner of an Israeli reality TV show - except that he is an Arab, writes the BBC's David Chazan. < http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/em/fr/-/2/hi/middle_east/3246330.stm > [...] 12302 463 24_Fw: Fw:Words from within14_Kleins Designs26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com30_Tue, 9 Dec 2003 11:07:33 -0800547_iso-8859-1 A ray of hope?

Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: Marcia Plager To: Odis and Nita Richardson ; Sherry and Angela Roby Rigaud ; Eitay ; Peter Van Ark ; Bill Ronayne ; Yankele and Iris ; Jackie Krieg ; Peggy Felice ; Steve and Monica Huss ; Esta Dilley ; Glenn Petty ; Marlene and Max Gasser ; Lynn Johnson ; Geoff and Linda Remes ; Randy and Gloria Adams ; Evan and Julie Rossio ; Donna Pulliam ; Dorothy Shapely ; Frank McCoy ; Baker Taniguchi ; Jerry Courtheyn Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2003 9:03 PM Subject: Fw: [...] 12766 69 49_Re: BBC E-mail: Arab wins Israeli reality TV show13_pearl skolnik25_pskolnik@netvision.net.il31_Tue, 09 Dec 2003 22:27:57 +0200427_iso-8859-1 not only is he an Arab, he has a Jewish Ashkenazi, live-in girlfriend, who even visits on shabbatot with him in his parents' home in an Arab village. (He is Christian Arab). How times have changed! pearl ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kleins Designs" To: Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 8:39 PM Subject: Fw: BBC E-mail: Arab wins Israeli reality TV show [...] 12836 89 60_Washington, D.C/Potamic.: Genealogist to speak on Cape Verde13_pearl skolnik25_pskolnik@netvision.net.il31_Tue, 09 Dec 2003 22:52:12 +0200592_iso-8859-1 Thought this might be of interest to those in Washington area. pearl > To: kulanu-list@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [Kulanu-List] Genealogist to speak on Cape Verde > > > >SUNDAY, DECEMBER 14, 2003, Meeting near Washington, DC > > > >At Congregation Har Shalom > >11510 Falls Road, > >Potomac, MD > > > >Social 1:30 p.m.; Meeting 2:00 - 4:00 p.m. > > > > > > > >The Jewish Genealogy Society of Greater Washington (JGSGW) will hold > >its December meeting on Sunday, December 14, 2003 at Congregation Har > >Shalom, 11510 Falls Road, Potomac, Maryland. For driving directions, > [...] 12926 211 47_New Mideast peace bids- a pocket guide/ Haaretz11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org30_Tue, 9 Dec 2003 18:58:04 -0600468_us-ascii Background / New Mideast peace bids - A pocket guide

By Bradley Burston, Haaretz Correspondent





Without warning, a drought in Middle East peacemaking has yielded to a flash flood of initiatives, trial balloons and truce bids, prompting wide speculation over the shape of an eventual solution for the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.





Here, in summary and comparison, are a number of the most recent plans. [...] 13138 192 43_Fw: Things A Jewish Mother Would Never Say:14_Kleins Designs26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Wed, 10 Dec 2003 11:31:42 -0800517_iso-8859-1 Things A Jewish Mother Would Never Say:With Hanukah coming up, here's a smile. (Advance apologies for those that do not enjoy "Jewish mother" humor). Just don't read it.

Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: Marcia Plager To: Carol Nalin ; Barry Szemere ; Bob and Barbara Fruitman ; Eileen Kelmanson ; Avravraham and Malka Czyzyk ; Arvin Tunick ; Geoff and Linda Remes ; Israel and Marlene Zakai Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 11:21 PM Subject: Fw: Things A Jewish Mother Would Never Say: [...] 13331 55 40_Egypt Library Removes Anti-Semitic Tract0_15_debalev@aol.com37_Wed, 10 Dec 2003 13:21:33 -0800 (PST)473_ISO-8859-1 This story was sent to you by: Debbie

-------------------- Egypt Library Removes Anti-Semitic Tract --------------------

By NADIA ABOU EL-MAGD Associated Press Writer

December 6, 2003, 4:53 PM EST

CAIRO, Egypt -- The Alexandria Library has withdrawn the first Arabic translation of the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" from an exhibit after U.N. cultural officials questioned the display of the 19th century anti-Semitic tract. [...] 13387 63 25_Channukah without the oil12_Stopak, Noam20_NStopak@orionsci.com31_Wed, 10 Dec 2003 21:34:26 -0500248_-

For those who want a nice chuckle there is a nice cartoon that updates the miracle of channukah that I can email you. I'd send it, but I know that messes up the digest.

Drop me a note and I'll be happy to pass it along.

Noam 13451 35 29_Re: Channukah without the oil12_David Fleiss20_dfleiss@pipeline.com31_Wed, 10 Dec 2003 21:57:16 -0500 13487 23 29_Re: Channukah without the oil12_David Fleiss20_dfleiss@pipeline.com31_Wed, 10 Dec 2003 22:05:34 -0500539_us-ascii I'm sorry. Obviously that message was intended for Noam, not for the entire list.

David



------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/

To unsubscribe email listproc@shamash.org and have your message read: unsubscribe habonet ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 13511 160 45_The situation/ Chemi Shalev/ Forward, Dec. 1111_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org31_Thu, 11 Dec 2003 07:33:38 -0600474_ISO-8859-1

Jerusalem Buzzes With Talk of Unilateral Moves Ahead of Sharon Speech Prime Minister's Ally Olmert Calls For Withdrawal From Territories Both Left and Right Position for Political Shake-Up THE SITUATION CHEMI SHALEV JERUSALEM Israel's political establishment, from left to right, is waiting nervously for the expected unveiling next week by Prime Minister Sharon of his long-awaited plan for ending Israel's current standoff with the Palestinians. [...] 13672 63 9_Channukah16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Fri, 12 Dec 2003 11:10:27 -0500551_iso-8859-1 CHANUKAH IS THE FESTIVAL OF LIGHT The Hasmoneans rededicated the Altar with a seven-branched menorah.

The eight-plus-one-branched Chanukah menorah is called a khanukiya.

"Khinukh" (education) comes from the same root as khanukah. Celebrating light may come from a pre-existing winter solstice holiday, which the Romans made "the day of the rebirth of the lord of the sun." The rededication of the world, some hold, comes as daylight increases. -- HF: HILLEL-FACULTY HF@niu.edu -- ------- ------- -- -------- -------- [...] 13736 45 4_help0_17_Aviva5675@aol.com29_Fri, 12 Dec 2003 11:40:09 EST123_US-ASCII Sorry, one more time, how do I notify you of a change of email address to send Habonet?

Thanks, Aviva Boggs 13782 60 21_Re: help for commands14_Holtzer Family20_carmdave@urim.org.il31_Fri, 12 Dec 2003 21:05:59 +0200216_iso-8859-1 The address for commands is: listproc@shamash.org whereas the address for posts to the list is: habonet@shamash.org If you need any help with any of it, send me an email: brianscoop@aol.com



13843 2354 20_Fw: Really beautiful14_Kleins Designs26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Fri, 12 Dec 2003 14:20:12 -0800562_iso-8859-1 This was too good not to send.

Steve



----- Original Message ----- From: Marcia Plager To: Odis and Nita Richardson ; Sherry and Angela Roby Rigaud ; Eitay ; Peter Van Ark ; Bill Ronayne ; Yankele and Iris ; Jackie Krieg ; Peggy Felice ; Steve and Monica Huss ; Esta Dilley ; Glenn Petty ; Marlene and Max Gasser ; Lynn Johnson ; Geoff and Linda Remes ; Randy and Gloria Adams ; Evan and Julie Rossio ; Donna Pulliam ; Dorothy Shapely ; Frank McCoy ; Baker Taniguchi ; Jerry Courtheyn Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2003 11:00 [...] 16198 62 24_Re: Fw: Really beautiful0_13_Mmxmm@aol.com29_Fri, 12 Dec 2003 18:32:59 EST294_US-ASCII steve,

try counting to 10 next time before sending and then ask yourself again...does this list really want such warm fuzzies from me? maybe the 8th Wonder is you will change your mind.

mm



, kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com writes: This was too good not to send. 16261 34 21_Re: help for commands15_Brian S. Cooper21_brian@cooperspace.net31_Sat, 13 Dec 2003 09:55:22 -0500454_iso-8859-1 foir me, please use brian@cooperspace.net

----- Original Message ----- From: "Holtzer Family" To: Sent: Friday, December 12, 2003 2:05 PM Subject: Re: help for commands



> The address for commands is: listproc@shamash.org > whereas the address for posts to the list is: habonet@shamash.org > If you need any help with any of it, send me an email: brianscoop@aol.com > > > [...] 16296 187 70_NYTimes/ Three Israelis Divide Their Lives Between Literature and Life11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org31_Sat, 13 Dec 2003 10:29:38 -0600409_ISO-8859-1

December 13, 2003 Three Israelis Divide Their Lives Between Literature and Life By AMY WILENTZ

There is no word for fiction in Hebrew," said Amos Oz, one of Israel's most respected novelists. "In a bookstore or library my novels are categorized under `siporet,' or narrative prose, as opposed to what is called documentary, which is nonfiction. The word fiction implies a lie." [...] 16484 140 24_Re: Fw: Really beautiful14_Kleins Designs26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Sat, 13 Dec 2003 08:38:46 -0800551_iso-8859-1 Dear Mmxmm (sorry, that's all I have to go on as a first name)

I ALWAYS count to ten before sending stuff anywhere. In fact, you've missed most of the good stuff because of that. But you have a valid question I guess. Did anyone appreciate it? Did anyone (besides yourself) hate it? Actually, to be fair- did they absolutely hate getting it on Habonet? My suspicion is that most people probably looked, said "mm" and moved on. I am also aware that Habonet is not a forum for warm fuzzies and all kinds of junk that we get daily [...] 16625 54 24_Re: Fw: Really beautiful13_richard smith19_rdsmith1957@msn.com31_Sat, 13 Dec 2003 11:39:07 -050077_iso-8859-1 I, too, found that particular post nauseatingly fuzzy, but since I 16680 184 24_Re: Fw: Really beautiful12_Esther Cohen22_richard.steacy@gte.net31_Sat, 13 Dec 2003 11:42:31 -0500368_iso-8859-1 i liked it. i do get this sort of thing from other sources, so don't NEED it from habonet, but really don't mind.

esther cohen washington, dc mosh 70-75+ mb 76 workshop 27 (gesher haziv)

----- Original Message ----- From: Kleins Designs To: habonet@shamash.org Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2003 11:38 AM Subject: Re: Fw: Really beautiful [...] 16865 459 24_RE: Fw: Really beautiful0_25_batel_libes@earthlink.net31_Sat, 13 Dec 2003 08:55:46 -0800433_iso-8859-1 Ill second Marcs opinion, and will also note that I hope this doesnt open the gates to more postings of this nature. Batel -----Original Message----- From: owner-habonet@shamash.org [mailto:owner-habonet@shamash.org]On Behalf Of Kleins Designs Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2003 8:39 AM To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: Re: Fw: Really beautiful

Dear Mmxmm (sorry, that's all I have to go on as a first name) [...] 17325 178 24_Re: Fw: Really beautiful12_Karen Fisher23_pkfisher19@peoplepc.com31_Sat, 13 Dec 2003 15:15:49 -0500405_iso-8859-1 I've read both pros and cons, but since I have just been diagnosed with breast cancer, need all the warm fuzzies. Thank you for sending it.

Karen Fisher ----- Original Message ----- From: Kleins Designs To: habonet@shamash.org Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2003 11:38 AM Subject: Re: Fw: Really beautiful



Dear Mmxmm (sorry, that's all I have to go on as a first name) [...] 17504 2265 20_Re: Really beautiful13_pearl skolnik25_pskolnik@netvision.net.il31_Sat, 13 Dec 2003 22:48:16 +0200346_iso-8859-1 steve, although I had read it before I am glad you sent it, for it is really a moving piece, and it is good to be reminded once in a while what really is important. shavua tov, pearl ----- Original Message ----- From: Kleins Designs To: habonet@shamash.org Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2003 12:20 AM Subject: Fw: Really beautiful [...] 19770 67 24_Re: Fw: Really beautiful0_15_DebALev@aol.com29_Sat, 13 Dec 2003 16:07:06 EST436_US-ASCII This was the fourth time it had been sent to me. The technical name for sappy, syrupy and often vapid stuff like this is "glurge," a word coined by Pat Chapin, a fellow member of the snopes.com urban legends list.

Personally, the stuff annoys me no end, and in my non-Habonet experience (since this was the first glurge I've seen here), glurge is usually sent by well-meaning but not terribly discriminating folks. [...] 19838 26 24_Re: Fw: Really beautiful0_17_Aviva5675@aol.com31_Sat, 13 Dec 2003 16:20:51 -0500538_iso-8859-1 I was alot happier seeing the warm fuzzy glurge than the snarly reply it first got.

If anyone cares, my new email is: aboggs@dls.net. With luck my AOL account will be toast next week.

Aviva Sherman Boggs Tavor 67-72 KMB In Israel 73 MB Yud-bet 74

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 19865 49 24_RE: Fw: Really beautiful12_Stopak, Noam20_NStopak@orionsci.com31_Sat, 13 Dec 2003 16:25:58 -0500386_- I think you're a nattering nabob myself, but perhaps that's too much negativity :-) I'd vote to pass on the "glurge" but Steve is doubtlessly ignoring my vote. Maybe he can find work in Florida...

How do all the digest folks feel about the many image files in this kind of posting? What about HTML formatting - colors and fonts for some, but more gunk for digest reading? [...] 19915 53 11_fuzzy stuff14_aviva grosbard18_deang@bezeqint.net31_Sat, 13 Dec 2003 23:25:27 +0200166_windows-1255 Hey-no reason to get all high and mighty about a cutesy e-mail. If you dont like it-dont read it! Its kind of as simple as that. Shavua tov-Aviva

19969 156 24_Re: Fw: Really beautiful11_Judy Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Sat, 13 Dec 2003 20:26:23 -0500576_us-ascii Dear Steve,

Since you asked--no, I didn't like it either and I especially didn't like getting it from Habonet.

Warmly, Judy

Kleins Designs wrote:

> Dear Mmxmm (sorry, that's all I have to go on as a first name) > > I ALWAYS count to ten before sending stuff anywhere. In fact, you've > missed most of the good stuff because of that. But you have a valid > question I guess. Did anyone appreciate it? Did anyone (besides > yourself) hate it? Actually, to be fair- did they absolutely hate > getting it on Habonet? My suspicion is that [...] 20126 19 24_Re: Fw: Really beautiful0_18_Rachelbern@aol.com31_Sun, 14 Dec 2003 01:06:43 -0500549_iso-8859-1 The element in this kind of syrupy sentimentality that I specifically dislike is the style in which they are written. No matter how profound or heartfelt the 'punchline' is, the preachy tone of the set up you have to read to get to it reminds me of the books of Christian parables that were always in my doctor's waiting room when I was a kid. If you want to extoll the wonders of our senses through cute pictures, lovely! But it's that set up story at the beginning -- here just a few paragraphs, but often several cloying pages -- [...] 20146 92 17_Re: "pintele yid"14_Martin Goodman26_martinjgoodman@hotmail.com31_Mon, 15 Dec 2003 01:02:49 +0000612_- Shalom Amnon,

I have been away from my home for a few weeks and it took me a while to catch up on my Habonet Digests. So, I apologize for not responding sooner to your PINTELE YID posting (26 November 2003).

In your posting, you state that referring to Jews who have not been educated in the Jewish heritage as TINOKOT SHENISHBU BEIN HANOKRIM is insulting. I agree. None-the-less, Chiloni ignorance of the Jewish heritage is wide-spread, frequently profound, (and though it is beyond my ability to fully document it and its causes), this ignorance predates establishment of settlements in [...] 20239 61 34_Celebrating Succot During Chanukah14_Martin Goodman26_martinjgoodman@hotmail.com31_Mon, 15 Dec 2003 01:57:50 +0000507_- Shalom Elihu,

The WEST END SYNAGOGUE link that you posted on Habonet states "" The Hasmoneans cleaned the pagan objects out of the Temple, purified it, and rededicated it. They also used this opportunity to celebrate Sukkot, which they had deen unable to do while the Temple was in pagan hands. Combining a "late Sukkot" with the rededication had a special resonance, since it was during the eight-day holiday of Sukkot that both the First and Second Temples had originally been dedicated. "" [...] 20301 22 16_Really Beautiful16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Mon, 15 Dec 2003 09:11:48 -0500464_us-ascii Mark: Grinch! ELIHU



------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/

To unsubscribe email listproc@shamash.org and have your message read: unsubscribe habonet ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 20324 22 56_MyJewishLearning.Com Article sent to you by Amnon Hadary0_22_amriv@netvision.net.il26_15 Dec 2003 11:23:46 -0500 20347 161 20_Re: Dos Pintelle Yid12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Mon, 15 Dec 2003 22:26:40 +0200694_iso-8859-1 Marty, Welcome back. "Dos Pintelle Yid" is rendered variously as the Jewish Spark, or essence. At base it is an indefinable essence, the human flip side of God's ineffable name.



In a speech in 2001, Norman Lamm rosh hayeshiva and president of RIETS, (Rabbi Isaac Elchanan Theological Seminary) and president of Yeshiva University said: (.)Orthodox Jews have a tendency to fight new battles with old weapons and to confront novel predicaments with antiquated strategies... But even more prevalent and more disturbing is another phenomenon that plagues us: an ideological fastidiousness, a spiritual squeamishness, such that the slightest ideological deviation or [...] 20509 127 33_Unsettling the West Bank/Ha'artez11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org31_Mon, 15 Dec 2003 14:54:01 -0600460_us-ascii

Background / Unsettling the West Bank - Sharon's Altalena

By Bradley Burston, Haaretz Correspondent





This Thursday, all eyes will be on Ariel Sharon as he addresses the annual Herzliya Conference on Israeli strength and security, waiting for the prime minister to lift the mantle of secrecy from a plan that he may or may not have decisively formulated for the future of Israel, the West Bank and Gaza Strip. [...] 20637 49 70_The capture of Saddam Hussein: It is very good for Israel and the U.S.11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org31_Mon, 15 Dec 2003 15:06:22 -0600594_us-ascii THE CAPTURE OF SADDAM HUSSEIN: IT IS VERY GOOD FOR ISRAEL AND FOR THE UNITED STATES



by



Dr. Robert O. Freedman



The long awaited capture of Saddam Hussein, cowering in a hole in a farmyard across the river from one of his palaces in Adwar,Iraq near Tikrit, is very good news both for the United States and for the State of Israel. For the United States, the capture should take a good bit of the wind from the sails of Saddam's supporters among Iraq's Sunni Moslem population who make up most of the resistance to US forces in Iraq. For [...] 20687 360 35_Re: Dos Pintelle Yid - speaking up!12_Jessica Bonn21_jessicab@bezeqint.net31_Tue, 16 Dec 2003 11:16:29 +0200663_iso-8859-1 Amnon: You write: You write " Since they consider it [halakha] unimpeachable and not subject to recall - I call it dogma." Who are they? One can be a secular victim of dogma, rigid conceptualizations, consensus disease (Habonim, as a counter-culture youth movement that nurtures youth idealism, taught this well.) And one can be a religious free-thinker!. It is the tragedy of modern Orthodoxy, and particularly in Israel where institutionalization of religion has led to a deep halakhic, intellectual and cultural freeze, that religiousness, in so many contexts = marit ayin, limited thinking, complete surrender to authority... rather than true [...] 21048 192 50_What kind of holiday will your children celebrate?11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org31_Tue, 16 Dec 2003 09:20:39 -0600675_ISO-8859-1

http://www.jewishmag.com/74mag/jeffdunetz/jeffdunetz.htm

What Kind Of Holiday Will Your Children Celebrate?

By Jeff Dunetz

Like a lot of parents I often go into my childrens room to watch them sleep .These days when I look at my kids sleeping in their beds looking so innocent I worry that across the world innocent Jewish children are being de-humanized. How the radical thieves who have stolen and now control Islam are teaching their children to kill my children. I think about the European and American press portraying Jews using old horrible stereotypes, I see anti-Semitism growing on US Campuses. And just like 70 years [...] 21241 83 45_"A rational army would run away" - Motesquieu13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il31_Tue, 16 Dec 2003 21:35:45 +0200447_windows-1255 Smart soldiers decided to flee the Rings battle Digital warriors thought for themselves - and their first thought was to run away

JAMIE PORTMAN CanWest News Service



Monday, December 15, 2003

It's the greatest and most spectacular battle in the Lord of the Rings trilogy.

But filmmakers faced one surprising challenge - how to keep the computer-generated soldiers from fleeing the battlefield. [...] 21325 1189 103_=?ISO-8859-1?B?5PLh+OQ6IEhhbnVra2FoIFNvbmdzIFRoYXQgTmV2ZXIgUXVpdGU=?= =?ISO-8859-1?B?IENhdWdodCBPbg==?=5_marks25_molieric@netvision.net.il31_Tue, 16 Dec 2003 21:50:17 +0200513_ISO-8859-1 Religious Joke of the DayAND A HAPPY CHANUKAH TO EVERYONE, AND A HAPPY NEW YEAR!!

LOVE,

MOLLIE AND ERIC ----- Original Message ----- From: Beliefnet Religious Jokes To: molieric@NETVISION.NET.IL Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2003 2:56 PM Subject: Hanukkah Songs That Never Quite Caught On





HOME RELIGIONS SPIRITUALITY CULTURE INSPIRATION FAMILY NEWS







Explore More - Quizzes - Meditations - Belief-o-matic - Submit Your Favorite Joke [...] 22515 259 60_THE UNPUBLISHED ANNEX AND ARTICLES OF THE GENEVA AGREEMENT14_Martin Goodman26_martinjgoodman@hotmail.com31_Tue, 16 Dec 2003 23:26:43 +0000618_- The Geneva Agreement refers repeatedly to the unpublished ANNEX X. Also some articles referenced in the agreement have not been published. References to the annex excerpted from the text of the agreement, as well as the unpublished articles, are listed below.



ARTICLE 3 IMPLEMENTATION AND VERIFICATION GROUP:

- An Implementation and Verification Group (IVG) shall hereby be established to facilitate, assist in, guarantee, monitor, and resolve disputes relating to the implementation of this Agreement The structure, procedures, and modalities of the IVG are detailed in ANNEX X. [...] 22775 97 123_=?UTF-8?Q?Re:=20THE=20UNPUBLISHED=20ANNEX=20AND=20ARTICLES=20OF=20?= =?UTF-8?Q?THE=20=E2=80=98GENEVA=20AGREEMENT=E2=80=99?=0_13_JLCAA@aol.com29_Tue, 16 Dec 2003 22:28:44 EST507_US-ASCII I don't particularly like the Geneva Accords and I agree that the missing Appendix X is a huge problem. God after all, is in the details. But .... what is your point?

That it is not a complete and final peace agreement with all the t's crossed,

or that there are parties on both sides capable of transcending terrorist attacks, settlement issues, checkpoints and misery in order to look at what a final agreement, even if incomplete, might look like on some of the major issues? [...] 22873 63 30_Evaluating the 'Geneva Accord'14_Martin Goodman26_martinjgoodman@hotmail.com31_Wed, 17 Dec 2003 07:07:19 +0000437_- Shalom Avy:

In your posting, you asked why I posted portions of the "Geneva Accord" that refer to its unpublished Annex. So far, there has been relatively little substantive discussion of the Geneva Accord on Habonet, perhaps because appendices, articles, and maps necessary to fully understand the accord are still unavailable. I hoped that listing these portions of the Accord might stimulate conversation on the Accord. [...] 22937 147 34_Re: Evaluating the 'Geneva Accord'0_13_JLCAA@aol.com29_Wed, 17 Dec 2003 11:41:12 EST583_US-ASCII In a message dated 12/17/03 2:08:01 AM Eastern Standard Time, martinjgoodman@hotmail.com writes:



> ready to go plan that can be implemented virtually immediately.> > I've never heard Beilin say anything like this in my meetings and/or conference calls with him. Ultimately, it isn't a question > of like or dislike of any > particular "plan," but rather what we can live with, and what the > Palestinians can live with without resorting to violence. It has to be a zero sum game. [...] 23085 154 61_The scourge of anti-Semistism spreads its venom/ The Guardian11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org31_Wed, 17 Dec 2003 13:17:02 -0600606_ISO-8859-1

The scourge of anti-semitism spreads its venom



William Shawcross reports on the new face of a deadly and ancient bigotry



The Guardian December 14, 2003







In Berlin last weekend I saw clips from hideous films that portrayed Jews as (literally) bloodsucking murderers. In one episode 'rabbis' sliced up a Jew and poured boiling lead into his mouth because he had slept with a non-Jewish woman. In another, rabbis murdered a Christian child to use his blood to bake Passover matzos. The dialogue in the latter went like this: [...] 23240 76 12_Take a break12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Wed, 17 Dec 2003 21:39:41 +0200463_us-ascii Haverot/im If you'e tired of the doom and gloom of our economy, security, antisemitism, antizionism, and the intifada - in the forwarded message below there's a site to mark in your ' favorites.' Besides featuring many wonderful spots in Israel, some off the beaten track, it's a link to all kinds of useful sites; e.g. http://www.emap.co.il/viewer.asp an address to address guide of how to get from one place to another in our turbulent geography. [...] 23317 70 34_Re: Evaluating the 'Geneva Accord'13_richard smith19_rdsmith1957@msn.com31_Wed, 17 Dec 2003 17:13:29 -0500419_iso-8859-1 Martin Goodman stated: "2. It would legitemize/encourage further anti-Semitism and anti-Jewish violence since it would establish a Jew-free Palestinian state rather than creating a Palestinian state in which Jewish settlers can be citizens (as Arabs are in Israel)."

This is a red herring. Is there any reason to believe that the people in these, probably illegal, settlements even desire to live in a 23388 62 34_RE: Evaluating the 'Geneva Accord'12_Stopak, Noam20_NStopak@orionsci.com31_Wed, 17 Dec 2003 20:11:30 -0500653_- Shalom Marty,

You wrote in part:

"Curiously, this is inconsistant with the assertion of Yossi Beilin that the Geneva Accord is superior to the Oslo

Accord and other proposed peace plans because the Geneva Accord is a complete ready to go plan that can be implemented virtually immediately.

Ideology aside, Beilin's assertion is unsubstantiated. As can be seen from my previous posting, numerous significant topics in the accord have not yet been presented to the public. The sceptic in me wonders why. Are the contents of the Annexes, etc. so potentially controversial that the accord authors are unwilling to publish [...] 23451 53 23_A Tigris Chronicle/ WSJ11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org31_Thu, 18 Dec 2003 06:01:10 -0600638_us-ascii GOOD AND EVIL

A Tigris Chronicle The Arab world grapples with Saddam's captivity.

BY FOUAD AJAMI Thursday, December 18, 2003 12:01 a.m. EST

We owe to Hannah Arendt one of the central insights of our time: the banality of evil. Arendt returned with that verdict after covering the trial of Adolf Eichmann in Jerusalem in 1961. There were the monstrous deeds of Eichmann and the Nazi regime whose work he had done. But there was also the man in the glass booth whom Arendt saw and described: "Medium-sized, slender, middle-aged, with receding hair, ill-fitting teeth, and nearsighted eyes, who throughout [...] 23505 53 16_A Complete Plan?14_Martin Goodman26_martinjgoodman@hotmail.com31_Thu, 18 Dec 2003 20:47:50 +0000602_- Shalom Avy:

With reference to my statement that 'Yossi Beilin has asserted that the Geneva Accord is a complete ready to go plan that can be implemented virtually immediately', you wrote, "" I've never heard Beilin say anything like this in my meetings and/or conference calls with him. ""

Beilin made that assertion in a recent interview with Charlie Rose. The following similar statement was made by Yasser Abed Rabbo in a joint interview with Beilin on the Jim Lehrer News Hour on 3 December 2003 (http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/middle_east/july-dec03/peaceproposal_12-3.html). [...] 23559 49 38_Jewish Citizens in a Palestinian State14_Martin Goodman26_martinjgoodman@hotmail.com31_Thu, 18 Dec 2003 20:49:19 +0000604_- Shalom Richard:

In a recent posting, I objected to the 'Geneva Accord' in part because " ... it would establish a Jew-free Palestinian state rather than creating a Palestinian state in which Jewish settlers can be citizens ... "

In your posting, you disagreed with my objection because you do not believe that Israeli settlers would wish to live in a Palestinian state. Given the long history of oppression of Jews and other foreigners in Arab lands and the more recent enmity of Palestinians against Israelis, one would think that Israeli settlers would not wish to remain in a new [...] 23609 96 12_Shalom Noam,14_Martin Goodman26_martinjgoodman@hotmail.com31_Thu, 18 Dec 2003 20:50:50 +0000484_- Shalom Noam,

1. To the best of my knowledge, Annex X of the "Geneva Accord" is still unpublished (as of 18 December 2003). A URL link to the text of the 'Geneva Accord' is provided below: http://informationclearinghouse.info/article5019.htm

2. You asked if the 'Geneva Accord' recognized Israel as a Jewish state. The following statement from the preamble of the Accord is virtually the only statement in the accord about recognition of Israel as a JEWISH state: [...] 23706 48 16_Before and after13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il31_Thu, 18 Dec 2003 22:50:12 +020070_windows-1255 This was inevitable:

http://scienide.de/shaved.jpg 23755 36 42_Re: Jewish Citizens in a Palestinian State12_David Fleiss20_dfleiss@pipeline.com37_Thu, 18 Dec 2003 16:02:25 -0500 (EST)435_us-ascii Marty Goodman wrote, in part:

> More broadly, I am surprised that Palestinian insistence on a Jew-free > Palestine is not more widely regarded to be anti-Semitic. If anyone were to > suggest that Jews in any other location on earth had to be removed from > their homes because their mere presence was objectionable to the majority > people, I believe this would be roundly criticized. [...] 23792 51 39_what's the status of the safeway stike?29_Richard Steacy & Esther Cohen22_richard.steacy@gte.net31_Thu, 18 Dec 2003 16:43:46 -0500130_iso-8859-1 what's the status of the safeway stike?

esther cohen washington, dc mosh 70-75+ mb 76 workshop 27 (gesher haziv) 23844 31 42_RE: Jewish Citizens in a Palestinian State12_Stopak, Noam20_NStopak@orionsci.com31_Thu, 18 Dec 2003 21:45:12 -0500573_-

My buddy Marti wrote in part:

"... If anyone were to suggest that Jews in any other location on earth had to be removed from their homes because their mere presence was objectionable to the majority people, I believe this would be roundly criticized."

Wow Marti - haven't you been reading all the pieces about Europe lately? If someone suggested that Jews be removed from their homes in France I don't think the majority of the French would round criticize them - they'd probably get a round of applause (or at least a round of stinky cheese). [...] 23876 64 20_RE: Before and after12_Stopak, Noam20_NStopak@orionsci.com31_Thu, 18 Dec 2003 21:46:44 -0500344_- and I thought he was going to look like Seinfeld when he shaved...

-----Original Message----- From: Jonathan Baum [mailto:jonbaum@sasa.org.il] Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2003 3:50 PM To: Habonet Subject: Before and after



This was inevitable:

http://scienide.de/shaved.jpg

23941 183 52_The Two Cultures [was Evaluating the Geneva Accord ]12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Fri, 19 Dec 2003 08:00:31 +0200521_us-ascii Marty; The received word is that Israel is chafed by two cultures. However there are more than two, there a number of diverse paired cultures. There are Sephardim and Ashkenazim, Orthodox and Secular, Arabs and Jews, Wealthy and Poor, Left and Right. Awareness of them is not bad - after all sociologists, political scientists and historians have to make a living. As soon as they are denominated with the suffix "ist" however they are no longer studied in dispassionate objectivity. "Ist" is a pejorative. [...] 24125 53 30_Fw: The Israeli security fence14_Albert Kaufman18_albi@earthlink.net31_Thu, 18 Dec 2003 23:13:35 -0800438_Windows-1252 an interesting perspective ...











Subject: The Israeli security fence



A very brief observation about the Israeli security fence....

The border security fence is comprised of many sections totaling scores of miles. Some sections are concrete, others sheet metal. The barrier is three layers deep in parts, fifteen feet high, and surrounded by razor wire. [...] 24179 71 34_Re: Fw: The Israeli security fence11_Judy Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Fri, 19 Dec 2003 06:37:27 -0500542_windows-1252 Wake up and pay attention! There is a HUGH outcry against the Mexico-US fence from human rights activists and from hispanic groups. This is a top issue for La Raza. THe fallout from the border is in the media day after day after day--and I'm in DC not Arizona where it is on every hour. Hundreds of people are dying in the desert as a result of this tighter border. Kids from all over Latin America are being given to coyotes to bring over but get caught and end up in orphanages in Mexico because parents can't go home and [...] 24251 54 34_Re: Fw: The Israeli security fence13_richard smith19_rdsmith1957@msn.com31_Fri, 19 Dec 2003 06:37:45 -050084_Windows-1252 To add to Judy's response, lets not forget that the US border fence is, 24306 106 17_On a lighter note11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org31_Fri, 19 Dec 2003 09:59:17 -0600555_ISO-8859-1





December 18, 2003 Woody Guthrie's 'This Menorah Is Your Menorah' By BEN SISARIO

This Land Is Your Land," of course. "Hard Travelin'," certainly. But "Honeyky Hanukkah"? "Hanukkah Tree"?

There seems to be no end to the surprises dug up by Woody Guthrie's daughter and tireless archivist, Nora Guthrie. Five years ago she gathered rock stars to write music for some of Guthrie's thousands of unpublished lyrics, touching on decidedly non-Dust Bowl topics like U.F.O.'s, Joe DiMaggio and Ingrid Bergman. [...] 24413 34 43_Re: what's the status of the safeway stike?0_13_JLCAA@aol.com29_Fri, 19 Dec 2003 11:50:11 EST44_US-ASCII The Safeway strike is still on. Avi 24448 88 24_Non-list related request12_Stopak, Noam20_NStopak@orionsci.com31_Fri, 19 Dec 2003 12:35:56 -0500388_-

Hi,

I have a collegue who is currently ill in the hospital. He's one of the hardest workers I know, and I think the hardest part of his illness is his feeling that he needs to be out and about and getting the job done. We've decided that one way to pick up his spirits is to show him that his blackberry is out and about and getting things done while he is laid up. [...] 24537 80 20_Re: A Complete Plan?0_13_JLCAA@aol.com29_Fri, 19 Dec 2003 13:21:25 EST626_US-ASCII In a message dated 12/18/03 3:48:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, martinjgoodman@hotmail.com writes:



> Continued concealment of the content of the Accord Annexes by the Accord > authors and signatories reinforces that suspicion

This comes under the rubric of being damn if you and damned if you don't. To my knowledge the "annexes" or appendices if you like, haven't actually been written yet, which is why the Geneva Accord is incomplete and not acceptable as a final agreement. On the other hand, it is not the purview of the Geneva negotiators to produce a final agreement - that is the job [...] 24618 82 42_Re: Jewish Citizens in a Palestinian State0_13_JLCAA@aol.com29_Fri, 19 Dec 2003 13:46:27 EST410_US-ASCII In a message dated 12/18/03 3:50:19 PM Eastern Standard Time, martinjgoodman@hotmail.com writes:



> More broadly, I am surprised that Palestinian insistence on a Jew-free > Palestine is not more widely regarded to be anti-Semitic.

And what does that make us if we refuse to accept the right of return for Palestinian refugees? A few Arabs are OK, but a lot of Arabs are not? [...] 24701 87 56_International Law On Settlements In Occupied Territories14_Martin Goodman26_martinjgoodman@hotmail.com31_Fri, 19 Dec 2003 20:25:52 +0000625_- Shalom David,

You wrote that moving settlers into conquered territory violates international law and cited Soviet settlement of the conquered Baltic states as an example.

I have never studied international law. However, world events are instructive about the nature of international law and the limits of its application.

When Arab armies attacked the State of Israel in May 1948, none of the countries that had just voted to allow establishment of the Jewish State lifted a finger to defend it against the Arab attack. I wonder if any of them even referred to the Arab invasion as a violation of [...] 24789 38 60_Re: International Law On Settlements In Occupied Territories12_David Fleiss20_dfleiss@pipeline.com43_Fri, 19 Dec 2003 16:14:12 -0500 (GMT-05:00)425_us-ascii Marty,

Like you, I make no claim to be a student of international law.

Your discussion of the removal of ethnic Germans is interesting, but I believe you are telling only half the story.

Yes, after WW2 some German territories were ceded to Poland. If I recall correctly, some of that land had been Polish before WW1 -- it wasn't as if Germany was ceding land that had "always" been German. [...] 24828 24 23_A greeting card for you0_17_rbarland@mjds.org37_Fri, 19 Dec 2003 14:22:12 US/Mountain315_- Rozzie has sent you a greeting card from http://cards.jhom.com .

You can view it at: http://cards.jhom.com/message_box/4HU5vUVWy0H0q4W0



- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Your card will be available for the next 90 days. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - [...] 24853 184 10_Great Site12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Sat, 20 Dec 2003 10:10:27 +0200645_iso-8859-1 Rozzie, The link you sent http://cards.jhom.com has more than just cards in it. For instance there's a link to an affiliate Jewish Heritage Online Magazine, and there I found the following for Hanukka actually Al Hanissim (on Miracles). There are the thoughts of a number greats Maimonides (12th century; Spain, Egypt) Gersonides (1288-1344; France) Baruch Spinoza (1632-1677; Holland) Franz Rosenzweig (1886-1929; Germany) Solomon Schechter (1848-1915; Romania, U.S.) Martin Buber (1878-1965; Austria, Israel) Mordechai Kaplan (1881-1983; Lithuania, US) Here is Kaplan's take on miracles. We had the [...] 25038 78 16_RE: Two Cultures14_Martin Goodman26_martinjgoodman@hotmail.com31_Sat, 20 Dec 2003 19:04:07 +0000374_- Shalom Amnon,

1. When I referred to Beilin and the other members of his negotiation team as LeftISTs, I did not mean to be pejorative of the individuals in the team. Rather, I intended to emphasize that the Israeli negotiation team did not include a sufficient portion of the Israeli political spectrum for it to achieve a consensus in Israel. Time will tell. [...] 25117 90 16_Re: Two Cultures0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com29_Sat, 20 Dec 2003 14:52:47 EST381_US-ASCII In a message dated 12/20/2003 2:04:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, martinjgoodman@hotmail.com writes:

> > To my way of thinking, political discussion in Israel is far to shrill and > polarized and more tolerance and compromise from the LEFT and the RIGHT are > required in order for the Zionist enterprise to advance. > > > > Chag Samayach, > > Marty Goodman > > [...] 25208 73 59_RE: Complete Pland & Jewish Citizens in A Palestinian State14_Martin Goodman26_martinjgoodman@hotmail.com31_Sat, 20 Dec 2003 20:07:28 +0000598_- Shalom Avi,

1. In your posting that responds to my posting "A Complete Plan", you wrote, "" ... it is not the purview of the Geneva negotiators to produce a final agreement - that is the job of governments... ""

That may be. However, the Geneva Accord was represented by its signatories as a COMPLETE plan which was ready to go. Printed copies of the plan were mailed to virtually every household in Israel and a ceremony marking its completion was staged with great fanfare in Switzerland and attended by world leaders. The impression was deliberately created that a complete [...] 25282 43 68_International Law On Settlements In Occupied Territories - continued14_Martin Goodman26_martinjgoodman@hotmail.com31_Sat, 20 Dec 2003 20:43:13 +0000678_- Shalom David,

1. Following WWII, millions of ethnic Germans (not just Nazi installed settlers) were forcibly removed from Alsace-Loraine (currently part of France), from the Sudetanland (currently the Czech Republic), and from portions of Slovakia, Romania, and Hungary that share borders with Austria. Borders were redrawn to correspond to the new ethnically cleansed reality. This included areas where Germans lived together with other ethnicities and areas where ethnic Germans were the only inhabitants. Many of these areas were controlled either by the Austrian-Hungarian empire or by Prussia for hundreds of years. At least part of the land ceded by Germany [...] 25326 59 59_RE: Complete Plans & Jewish Citizens in A Palestinian State12_Stopak, Noam20_NStopak@orionsci.com31_Sat, 20 Dec 2003 16:06:26 -0500515_-

Shalom Marty,

In response to Avi, you wrote in part:

"... I only wish that there would be an equivalent committment on the part of the LEFT to support Israel if Israel democratically chooses not to follow the dismantlement/ceding territory path."

>From where I sit this it seems this is exactly what has been going on for the past 30+ years. My understanding is that plenty of leftists have dies in support of the democratically elected governments of the left right and center. [...] 25386 63 72_Re: International Law On Settlements In Occupied Territories - continued13_richard smith19_rdsmith1957@msn.com31_Sat, 20 Dec 2003 16:29:59 -0500198_iso-8859-1 Marty wrote: "History aside, my principle point was not that settlement activities by less than moral countries like China, India, and Syria justifies Israel's settlement policy."

25450 56 29_Photo Archive of Habonim Dror11_Sam Bergman22_sambergman@comcast.net31_Sun, 21 Dec 2003 08:37:25 -0500332_us-ascii Everyone,

We are about to open the new Habonim Dror Foundation website, and we need your help. The site will feature a photo-archive of 70 years of Habonim/Dror. The problem is, that we don't have that archive yet, YOU DO. The website isn't quite ready to open, but enough so that you can get the idea... Go to [...] 25507 43 19_occupied territory?13_pearl skolnik25_pskolnik@netvision.net.il31_Sun, 21 Dec 2003 10:16:03 +0200623_windows-1255 just a comment on the opinions expressed about settlements in "occupied territory:" The international community recognized Judea and Samaria as part of the British Mandate for a Jewish State. It was not given to Jordan or to anyone else. Jordan conquered and took over those areas. After the Six Day War, Jordan, under threat and fear of the Palestinian arabs, gave up her claim to those areas, which, anyway, was recognized ONLY by Britain and Pakistan as belonging to Jordan. Those areas were not part of any other State or other internationally recognized entity. Certainly not of a Palestinian State. [...] 25551 60 23_Re: occupied territory?11_lewis levin19_lyaron@inter.net.il31_Sun, 21 Dec 2003 17:32:08 +0200669_windows-1255

----- Original Message ----- From: "pearl skolnik" To: Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2003 10:16 AM Subject: occupied territory?



> just a comment on the opinions expressed about settlements in "occupied > territory:" The international community recognized Judea and Samaria as > part of the British Mandate for a Jewish State. It was not given to Jordan > or to anyone else. Jordan conquered and took over those areas. After the > Six Day War, Jordan, under threat and fear of the Palestinian arabs, gave up > her claim to those areas, which, anyway, was recognized ONLY by Britain [...] 25612 39 18_Lewis Levin answer13_pearl skolnik25_pskolnik@netvision.net.il31_Sun, 21 Dec 2003 18:28:21 +0200349_windows-1255 Lewis, I did not forget there was a partition between a Jewish and Palestinian state: it is not relevant, because the Arabs turned down the offer of a State. Once an offer is turned down and war is declared, later to be lost along with territory, the aggressor can not come back and say "now I want what I turned down antebellum!" [...] 25652 59 39_Recognized borders and the "green line"12_Stopak, Noam20_NStopak@orionsci.com31_Sun, 21 Dec 2003 11:54:48 -0500258_-

Speaking of who has recognized which borders, I heard a discussion on NPR the other day and the NPR guy (don't recall his name) talked about the green line as the recognized border. Have any countries formally recognized the green line?

Noam 25712 112 22_Re: Lewis Levin answer11_Judy Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Sun, 21 Dec 2003 13:49:27 -0500593_us-ascii DIdn't Israel actually attack first in a pre-emptive action as the Arabs were about to strike? Judy

pearl skolnik wrote:

>Lewis, >I did not forget there was a partition between a Jewish and Palestinian >state: it is not relevant, because the Arabs turned down the offer of a >State. Once an offer is turned down and war is declared, later to be lost >along with territory, the aggressor can not come back and say "now I want >what I turned down antebellum!" > >I have written this before, and so have others trained in International Law >(see Eugene Rostow, e.g.), [...] 25825 72 33_Re: Photo Archive of Habonim Dror12_Jessica Bonn21_jessicab@bezeqint.net31_Sun, 21 Dec 2003 21:20:16 +0200435_ISO-8859-1 The Phila office on Chestnut street had a number of photos, including a classic of Ben Laden at an Israel parade in the 80s holding a sign that said "Say hello to P.L.O." What has been the fate of the office and photos... any leads? Jessie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sam Bergman" To: Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2003 3:37 PM Subject: Photo Archive of Habonim Dror [...] 25898 24 33_RE: Photo Archive of Habonim Dror12_Stopak, Noam20_NStopak@orionsci.com31_Sun, 21 Dec 2003 14:34:42 -0500503_- So he bin a terrorist for dat long eh?

-----Original Message----- From: Jessica Bonn [mailto:jessicab@bezeqint.net]

... a classic of Ben Laden at an Israel parade in the 80s holding a sign that said "Say hello to P.L.O."

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 25923 56 31_Style and Content in Discussion14_Martin Goodman26_martinjgoodman@hotmail.com31_Sun, 21 Dec 2003 19:37:38 +0000517_- Shalom Sam,

Although we have disagreed on many subjects, we are in agreement that Israeli political debate is shrill. It appears to be your opinion that this is understandable or even commendable because "Big things are at stake".

I respectfully disagree. Referring to Leftists and their leaders as traitors and Oslo war criminals and to Rightists and their leaders as thugs, facists, and murderers is inaccurate and it undermines the Left-Right dialogue which is essential for Israel's success. [...] 25980 146 22_Re: Lewis Levin answer0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com29_Sun, 21 Dec 2003 14:56:22 EST574_US-ASCII In a message dated 12/21/2003 1:43:34 PM Eastern Standard Time, gelman@erols.com writes:

> > DIdn't Israel actually attack first in a pre-emptive action as the Arabs > were about to strike? > Judy >

Actually Judy, it is not at all clear that the Arabs were about to strike. Nasser had not really deployed enough troops to be a threat to Israel. What he had done was to expel the UN and to close Sharem el Sheik to Israel navigation. This was counter to the agreements reached between Eisenhower and Ben Gurion in 1956. The US had promised to act [...] 26127 159 35_Re: Style and Content in Discussion0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com29_Sun, 21 Dec 2003 15:10:36 EST351_US-ASCII In a message dated 12/21/2003 2:38:26 PM Eastern Standard Time, martinjgoodman@hotmail.com writes:

> Regarding point a), I have argued that a satisfactory peace agreement > should > honor the rights of Jewish settlers. I have not however argued that the > rights of Palestinians, or Arab or Jewish Israelis should not be honored. [...] 26287 52 22_Re: Lewis Levin answer0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com29_Sun, 21 Dec 2003 15:12:00 EST262_US-ASCII In a message dated 12/21/2003 11:38:38 AM Eastern Standard Time, pskolnik@netvision.net.il writes:

> HaRatzachta v'gam yarashta??? (If you kill you > should also inherit?) >

Pearl, this is a great question to ask the mitnachlim.

Sam 26340 100 19_A Workable Solution14_Martin Goodman26_martinjgoodman@hotmail.com31_Sun, 21 Dec 2003 21:21:02 +0000447_- Shalom Noam:

In your posting, you asked, "" If the settlers won't leave on their own, and won't live peacefully with the Arabs, ... what do you suggest as a workable solution? ""

My outlook is based on the following two premises:

I. The most difficult, costly, painful, harmful way to attempt to solve the Arab-Israeli problem is compel large numbers of people, Jews and/or Arabs, to leave their homes and communities. [...] 26441 55 60_RE: International Law On Settlements In Occupied Territories14_Martin Goodman26_martinjgoodman@hotmail.com31_Sun, 21 Dec 2003 22:08:16 +0000364_- Shalom Richard,

In the thread about settling in territories occupied during war, I distinguished between moral and immoral settlement based on whether or not the war was a war of aggression.

In that context, I wrote that I did not justify Israel's settlement behavior on the less than moral behavior of countries like Syria, China, and India. [...] 26497 46 23_Re: A Workable Solution0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com29_Sun, 21 Dec 2003 18:24:47 EST271_US-ASCII Marty.

You may have forgotten that Israel has already offerred the West Bank to Jordon ( Eshkol to Hussein) and Gaza to Egypt ( Begin to Sadaat) They were not interested then and are not likely to be interested anytime in the forseeable future.

Sam 26544 478 22_RE: Lewis Levin answer12_Dave Edelman18_dedelman@iname.com31_Sun, 21 Dec 2003 23:30:19 -0500361_us-ascii Sam,





The operative phrase here is "close Sharem el Sheik to Israeli Shipping." Under international law, this is an act of war. I guess that I don't need to point out that the shelling of Israeli cities was also an act of war. I suppose that by today's standards Iraq and Syria were collateral damage but who am I to say :-) [...] 27023 26 34_Photograph of Ya'acov (Jake) Rycus15_Meyers Nechemia23_meyers@netvision.net.il31_Mon, 22 Dec 2003 08:54:31 +0200353_ISO-8859-1 Shalom, Ya'acov (Jake) Rycus is about to celebrate his 90th birthday and the Weizmann Institute--where he was Academic Secretary for many years--is to have an article about him in its magazine. Rycus was very active in Habonim before coming here. Does anyone, by chance, have a photograph of him from his Habonim period? Nechemia Meyers [...] 27050 56 45_Internatrional borders and who attacked first28_Michal and Efraim Perlmutter24_habesor@netvision.net.il31_Mon, 22 Dec 2003 13:45:26 +0200610_us-ascii Noam asked:

"Speaking of who has recognized which borders, I heard a discussion on NPR the other day and the NPR guy (don't recall his name) talked about the green line as the recognized border. Have any countries formally recognized the green line?

No country (with the possible exception of Lebanon) has ever formally recognized the green line as an international border. In addition to make a claim that the green line legitimizes sovereignty on any territory is a violation of all of the armistice agreements with the sole exception of the Lebanese-Israeli Armistice agreement. [...] 27107 46 57_RE: Internatrional borders - followup question for Efraim12_Stopak, Noam20_NStopak@orionsci.com31_Mon, 22 Dec 2003 10:48:19 -0500690_- Efraim,

Do I understand correctly that this is a violation because the armistance agreements explicitly state that the line does not delineate sovereinty?

Thanks,

Noam

-----Original Message----- From: Michal and Efraim Perlmutter [mailto:habesor@netvision.net.il] Sent: Monday, December 22, 2003 6:45 AM To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: Internatrional borders and who attacked first



Noam asked:

"Speaking of who has recognized which borders, I heard a discussion on NPR the other day and the NPR guy (don't recall his name) talked about the green line as the recognized border. Have any countries formally recognized the green line? [...] 27154 49 47_Jewish Family Services-Bergen County New Jersey0_14_FIZNIK@aol.com29_Mon, 22 Dec 2003 10:52:29 EST462_US-ASCII I have some friends who are looking into the Rockleigh Home for the Aged in New Jersey for their parents. Can someone give me some information to help them. They don't anything about the place. They got a brochure and a tour, but they are obviously nervous about a place that really they don't know much about. I would appreciate it, they are looking for an environment that is encompansing...with warmth and care. Look forward to replies..thanks, [...] 27204 22 19_One Quilt At A Time11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org31_Mon, 22 Dec 2003 12:36:55 -0600499_us-ascii Hi, A query this time. Does anyone know or have an opinion of the program from the BJE of Greater New York, Creating Peace One Quilt At A time? The website is: www.matckh.org. I have not yet had time to check it out. Rozzie

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 27227 49 23_Re: One Quilt At A Time12_Esther Cohen22_richard.steacy@gte.net31_Mon, 22 Dec 2003 14:29:54 -0500304_iso-8859-1 i have no real opinion, aside from the annoying fact of having music playing the whole time the site is open, but i do wonder who their "Participating Organizations" are: perhaps I'm just out of touch, but I've never heard of Girls High school, Potomac, MD or The Academy, Washington, DC [...] 27277 40 23_RE: One Quilt At A Time12_Stopak, Noam20_NStopak@orionsci.com31_Mon, 22 Dec 2003 14:53:09 -0500547_- Those schools don't ring a bell with me either Esther.

Noam

-----Original Message----- From: Esther Cohen [mailto:richard.steacy@gte.net] Sent: Monday, December 22, 2003 2:30 PM To: Habonet Subject: Re: One Quilt At A Time



i have no real opinion, aside from the annoying fact of having music playing the whole time the site is open, but i do wonder who their "Participating Organizations" are: perhaps I'm just out of touch, but I've never heard of Girls High school, Potomac, MD or The Academy, Washington, DC [...] 27318 33 23_Re: One Quilt At A Time0_15_Moshava@aol.com29_Mon, 22 Dec 2003 14:58:43 EST76_US-ASCII my best guess is yeshiva high school and the berman hebrew academy. 27352 510 14_Arab-land Grab13_moshe sheskin24_moshes7@netvision.net.il55_Mon, 22 Dec 2003 15:58:13 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)606_iso-8859-1 The following is an extract from an article which I wrote. These are my views on the ongoing topic of the Arab-land Grab. ------------------------------------ A heated exchange took place on the subject and it became clear to me that most of us are blinded by international pressure and we accept without question the idea that the so called West Bank belongs to the Arabs. Its a form of brain washing somewhat similar to the Nazi propaganda methods used so efficiently during that infamous period of world history. It is also accepted and used very effectively against us by the Arabs, [...] 27863 29 23_Re: One Quilt At A Time11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org31_Mon, 22 Dec 2003 15:44:40 -0600603_us-ascii I just saw the video, and the schools mentioned are mostly Orthodox ones.





---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: Moshava@aol.com Reply-To: habonet@shamash.org Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 14:58:43 EST

>my best guess is yeshiva high school and the berman hebrew academy. > >

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 27893 37 51_Re: Jewish Family Services-Bergen County New Jersey0_18_Green88888@aol.com29_Mon, 22 Dec 2003 17:43:31 EST193_US-ASCII I have never been to the place myself, but the mother of a friend of mine is there. They are very satisfied with the place and say she is very happy and well taken care of there. Donna 27931 32 51_Re: Jewish Family Services-Bergen County New Jersey0_14_FIZNIK@aol.com29_Mon, 22 Dec 2003 17:45:31 EST27_US-ASCII Thanka alot Donna! 27964 22 0_13_richard smith19_rdsmith1957@msn.com31_Tue, 23 Dec 2003 04:27:29 +0000534_- I know this has been explained before, but how do i change my e-mail address for this list?

_________________________________________________________________ Enjoy the holiday season with great tips from MSN. http://special.msn.com/network/happyholidays.armx

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 27987 18 17_Worth viewing!!!,11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org31_Tue, 23 Dec 2003 07:12:44 -0600487_us-ascii http://www.readme.co.il/pnimit/israel-2/index.html

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/

To unsubscribe email listproc@shamash.org and have your message read: unsubscribe habonet ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 28006 23 13_Irving Cotler15_Meyers Nechemia23_meyers@netvision.net.il31_Tue, 23 Dec 2003 20:16:20 +0200452_ISO-8859-1 Shalom, According to one newspaper report, Canada's new Minister of Justice attended Habonim camp. Does anyone remember him from his days as a camper? Nechemia Meyers



------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 28030 40 17_Re: Irving Cotler13_pearl skolnik25_pskolnik@netvision.net.il31_Tue, 23 Dec 2003 22:39:30 +0200464_ISO-8859-1 I believe Cotler wrote a book with a former Habonim member from Toronto, Heshy Troper, who is now at the University of Toronto, so it is possible he was in Habonim, as well. pearl p.s. I could be wrong and may be mixing him up with another person that wrote the book with Heshy. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Meyers Nechemia" To: Sent: Tuesday, December 23, 2003 8:16 PM Subject: Irving Cotler [...] 28071 96 3_sam13_pearl skolnik25_pskolnik@netvision.net.il31_Tue, 23 Dec 2003 23:46:38 +0200554_ISO-8859-1 it is not a great question, because the number of arabs killed by mitnachalim is very low. (I believe only one Jew was convicted in the last eight years of killing an Arab). The Jews living in the settlements are very law-abiding citizens. There are a few "wild" youth in a very few ma'achazim, but they certainly are not involved in killing. IIn general, you can say that the Jews are far more in danger of being killed by Arabs than are Arabs by Jews. thousands of Arabs infiltrate all the time into Israel with no fear of being killed [...] 28168 174 7_Re: sam12_Jessica Bonn21_jessicab@bezeqint.net31_Tue, 23 Dec 2003 23:57:03 +0200361_iso-8859-1 Someone needs to just answer the question. A relevant corrolary is a comparison of sentences issued for Jewish murderers of Pals. relative to sentences for Pal. murderers of Jews (excluding cases of self-defense.) JB ----- Original Message ----- From: pearl skolnik To: habonet@shamash.org Sent: Tuesday, December 23, 2003 11:46 PM Subject: sam [...] 28343 87 39_pre six day war hysteria and the attack13_pearl skolnik25_pskolnik@netvision.net.il31_Wed, 24 Dec 2003 00:42:08 +0200557_windows-1255 Having lived through the Six Day War and all that led up to it, I can tell you that the atmosphere here was of virtual "hysteria." For weeks the Arab media was building up martial fever: we would hear them screaming on the radio: "Fish of the Sea prepare for the great feast: we are going to throw all the Jews into the sea." Every gem like this was followed by a burst of machine-gun fire over the airwaves. Or: "Slaughter the Jews, men, women, suckling babes, kill them whereever you find them." followed by machine gun fire and martial [...] 28431 182 7_Re: sam14_Kleins Designs26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Tue, 23 Dec 2003 14:57:38 -0800612_iso-8859-1 Sam

What is going on? Do you have something to back this up? (See below). If not, why would you put it out there?

Still fondly,

Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: pearl skolnik To: habonet@shamash.org Sent: Tuesday, December 23, 2003 1:46 PM Subject: sam



it is not a great question, because the number of arabs killed by mitnachalim is very low. (I believe only one Jew was convicted in the last eight years of killing an Arab). The Jews living in the settlements are very law-abiding citizens. There are a few "wild" youth in a very few ma'achazim, but [...] 28614 184 27_Re: sentencing of murderers13_pearl skolnik25_pskolnik@netvision.net.il31_Wed, 24 Dec 2003 01:10:22 +0200564_ISO-8859-1 murder in the first degree is automatic life sentence, Jew or Arab. The problem in Israel is, as Dr.Bacharach testified in court, it is far more worthwhile for Arabs who kill Jews than it is for Jews who kill Arabs, because in the past Arab terrorists would often serve no more than two or three years and be exchanged in one of our prisoner swaps: thousands (literally) of convicted terrorists for 3 or 4 Jewish captive soldiers or bodies. "It is far more worthwhile to kill a Jew," he said, knowing what he was talking about, because his son and [...] 28799 138 43_Re: pre six day war hysteria and the attack14_Kleins Designs26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Tue, 23 Dec 2003 15:16:03 -0800539_windows-1255 Pearl

I was in Givataim on that morning. Had a brand-new baby. Sirens woke us. I was with my unit by evening, as best as I remember.

Your piece is well written, and it is beyond me that you had to write it at all. I guess if I were an Arab, or even a moslem, I could see things another way. I'm not- and I don't. Keep up the good work. I guess if the Catholic church can admonish the US for checking Saddam's teeth without proferring the respect a man of his station deserves (while protecting the Bishops, [...] 28938 321 27_Re: sentencing of murderers13_Richard Smith23_rdsmith1957@comcast.net31_Tue, 23 Dec 2003 18:34:49 -0500617_iso-8859-1 Pearl you are right, Arabs are treated just too well in Israel. ----- Original Message ----- From: pearl skolnik To: habonet@shamash.org Sent: Tuesday, December 23, 2003 6:10 PM Subject: Re: sentencing of murderers



murder in the first degree is automatic life sentence, Jew or Arab. The problem in Israel is, as Dr.Bacharach testified in court, it is far more worthwhile for Arabs who kill Jews than it is for Jews who kill Arabs, because in the past Arab terrorists would often serve no more than two or three years and be exchanged in one of our prisoner swaps: thousands (literally) [...] 29260 148 27_Re: sentencing of murderers5_Batel25_batel_libes@earthlink.net43_Tue, 23 Dec 2003 16:26:54 -0800 (GMT-08:00) 29409 76 43_Re: pre six day war hysteria and the attack0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com29_Tue, 23 Dec 2003 21:21:05 EST513_US-ASCII Pearl, I lived throught the six day war an milchemet Yom Kippur. I was a soldier in the later. The hysteria was there. But the history of went on behind the scenes is now public knowlege. Israel made the decision to strike pre emptively against the desire of Rosh Hamemshala Eshkol and against the advice of Ben Gurion. Obviously there were some people at the top who thought that war was not needed. In a message dated 12/23/2003 5:42:45 PM Eastern Standard Time, pskolnik@netvision.net.il writes: [...] 29486 61 22_Green Line as a border28_Michal and Efraim Perlmutter24_habesor@netvision.net.il31_Wed, 24 Dec 2003 09:10:23 +0200385_us-ascii Noam asked:

"Do I understand correctly that this is a violation because the armistance agreements explicitly state that the line does not delineate sovereinty?"

As I read the armistice agreements, yes, this is explicitly stated. Here are the relevant sections from the Egyptian-Israeli Armistive agreement. Noam, do you agree with my understanding of them? [...] 29548 59 17_Re: Irving Cotler15_Brian S. Cooper21_brian@cooperspace.net31_Wed, 24 Dec 2003 07:20:26 -0500323_iso-8859-1 Irving Cotler is from Montreal, where I grew up. Mom taught his daughter. As far as I know he was never in Habonim, but his wife (his second I think) is Israeli, and he of course, is a "lantsman" nonetheless, who now brings further nachas to Montreal Jewry! :) (... And to Jews in general, one might argue) [...] 29608 45 26_RE: Green Line as a border12_Stopak, Noam20_NStopak@orionsci.com31_Wed, 24 Dec 2003 09:34:06 -0500498_- Yes, it is quite clear. Good fodder for letters to editors and politicians. Thank you Efraim!

Noam

-----Original Message----- From: Michal and Efraim Perlmutter [mailto:habesor@netvision.net.il] Sent: Wednesday, December 24, 2003 2:10 AM To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: Green Line as a border



Noam asked:

"Do I understand correctly that this is a violation because the armistance agreements explicitly state that the line does not delineate sovereinty?" [...] 29654 75 7_Richard13_pearl skolnik25_pskolnik@netvision.net.il31_Wed, 24 Dec 2003 18:57:00 +0200551_windows-1255 Richard, I did not say Arabs are treated too well in Israel. What is true is that their situation is far superior to that of Arabs in neighboring countries. They have the lowest mortality and infant mortality rates of any Arabs in any country, and that alone speaks worlds. Today, I again passed French Hill and there was a six year old Arab boy standing on the traffic island selling gum. It is freezing out. He was wearing only a sweater without a jacket. I gave him two shekels and a smile, and he smiled back. It is very painful [...] 29730 306 18_Fw: reply to batel13_pearl skolnik25_pskolnik@netvision.net.il31_Wed, 24 Dec 2003 19:19:20 +0200598_iso-8859-1





people who DON'T think scare me.

I cannot see why what I think should scare you. I wrote from experience. I wrote what the situation is as I have seen it. Let someone living here dispute what I wrote, if it is not correct. Perhaps my reality is different than others because of my experiences and the perspective of 43+ years in Israel. I remember 1967 territories with hovels, virtually no stone homes, and people walking barefoot in winter because they had no shoes. No cars either, except for the rais. 4 tractors in all of Yesha. no running water [...] 30037 23 22_Re: Fw: reply to batel5_Batel25_batel_libes@earthlink.net43_Wed, 24 Dec 2003 09:20:02 -0800 (GMT-08:00) 30061 73 22_Re: Fw: reply to batel0_14_LHIAM1@aol.com29_Wed, 24 Dec 2003 12:39:51 EST 30135 535 18_Re: reply to batel13_Richard Smith23_rdsmith1957@comcast.net31_Wed, 24 Dec 2003 12:42:58 -0500518_iso-8859-1 Didn't the first Intifada begin well before Arafat came to the West Bank? I just read in an old New York Review of Books an article by Amos Alon that Israel could have returned the West Bank to Jordon in 1970-71, keeping the West Wall but Israel refused to give up East Jerusalem and the surrounding nieghborhoods and so the deal never occurred. What if... ----- Original Message ----- From: pearl skolnik To: habonet@shamash.org Sent: Wednesday, December 24, 2003 12:19 PM Subject: Fw: reply to batel [...] 30671 148 43_Re: pre six day war hysteria and the attack14_Kleins Designs26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Wed, 24 Dec 2003 10:08:07 -0800305_iso-8859-1 As far as I remember, Eshkol and Ben Gurion were afraid the US would withhold arms and supplies (which they did, through Kissinger's "Shuttle Diplomacy) if Israel were seen in any way as aggressing. I don't even understand the phrase "the war was not needed". Maybe you can clear that up? [...] 30820 574 40_Fw: Columbia - Barnard Hillel E-Bulletin14_Kleins Designs26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Wed, 24 Dec 2003 10:14:22 -0800467_iso-8859-1 Untitled Document ----- Original Message ----- From: Columbia - Barnard Hillel To: kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com Sent: Wednesday, December 24, 2003 12:29 AM Subject: Columbia - Barnard Hillel E-Bulletin



COLUMBIA / BARNARD HILLEL E-BULLETIN Winter 2003

Contents a.. Middle East Studies at Columbia University b.. Save the Dates and Follow-Up Information





The Treatment of the Middle East at Columbia University [...] 31395 490 58_Fw: FYI - Peace Process and Ultimatum by Jo-ana D'Balcazar14_Kleins Designs26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Wed, 24 Dec 2003 10:16:06 -0800505_iso-8859-1 good to know there is still a friend of Israel (and sanity) out there

Steve

----- Original Message ----- From: Search4news - To: search4news@hotmail.com Sent: Wednesday, December 24, 2003 12:45 AM Subject: FYI - Peace Process and Ultimatum by Jo-ana D'Balcazar





NOTE: You may forward or reprint this article on condition that you include the whole article, which includes complete information about its author, date, and original source of publication. [...] 31886 89 70_RE: [spam] Fw: FYI - Peace Process and Ultimatum by Jo-ana D'Balc azar12_Stopak, Noam20_NStopak@orionsci.com31_Wed, 24 Dec 2003 13:22:58 -0500550_- This writer makes some good points but leaves me with some questions.

Tell me Steve, do the maps in Israeli schools show a Palestinian state?

When the writer speaks of the need to end the violence, why are only the homicide bombings mentioned? Is that they only violence in the area?

Noam

-----Original Message----- From: Kleins Designs [mailto:kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com] Sent: Wednesday, December 24, 2003 1:16 PM To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: [spam] Fw: FYI - Peace Process and Ultimatum by Jo-ana D'Balcazar [...] 31976 185 43_Re: pre six day war hysteria and the attack13_Richard Smith23_rdsmith1957@comcast.net31_Wed, 24 Dec 2003 13:30:34 -0500394_iso-8859-1 As I remember it, Kissinger was a professor at Harvard during the six-day war. Since Nixon wasn't president for another year and a half after the war and Kissinger didn't work for the Johnson administration. ----- Original Message ----- From: Kleins Designs To: habonet@shamash.org Sent: Wednesday, December 24, 2003 1:08 PM Subject: Re: pre six day war hysteria and the attack [...] 32162 220 43_Re: pre six day war hysteria and the attack14_Kleins Designs26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Wed, 24 Dec 2003 12:08:00 -0800608_iso-8859-1 Yom Kippur war.

Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: Richard Smith To: habonet@shamash.org Sent: Wednesday, December 24, 2003 10:30 AM Subject: Re: pre six day war hysteria and the attack



As I remember it, Kissinger was a professor at Harvard during the six-day war. Since Nixon wasn't president for another year and a half after the war and Kissinger didn't work for the Johnson administration. ----- Original Message ----- From: Kleins Designs To: habonet@shamash.org Sent: Wednesday, December 24, 2003 1:08 PM Subject: Re: pre six day war hysteria and the attack [...] 32383 157 70_Re: [spam] Fw: FYI - Peace Process and Ultimatum by Jo-ana D'Balc azar14_Kleins Designs26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Wed, 24 Dec 2003 12:10:01 -0800442_iso-8859-1 MessageNoam

Hi

I didn't want you to think I was ignoring your questions.

What is the point of these questions?

Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: Stopak, Noam To: habonet@shamash.org Sent: Wednesday, December 24, 2003 10:22 AM Subject: RE: [spam] Fw: FYI - Peace Process and Ultimatum by Jo-ana D'Balc azar



This writer makes some good points but leaves me with some questions. [...] 32541 202 22_Re: Fw: reply to batel14_Kleins Designs26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Wed, 24 Dec 2003 12:17:50 -0800452_iso-8859-1 LHIAM

Hi

What if the dream, theoretically, is that my children all die and my people disappear? How How much sympathy, empathy and understanding is that going to get from the losing end of that dream? Lhiam, maybe you can get them to choose a different dream?

Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: LHIAM1@aol.com To: habonet@shamash.org Sent: Wednesday, December 24, 2003 9:39 AM Subject: Re: Fw: reply to batel [...] 32744 196 58_RE: FYI - Peace Process and Ultimatum by Jo-ana D'Balcazar12_Stopak, Noam20_NStopak@orionsci.com31_Wed, 24 Dec 2003 15:46:33 -0500330_- Hi Steve,

Perhaps you're not ignoring my questions, but I can't help but notice that you're not answering them either.

If you complain that PA school books don't show Israel I think it is reasonable to ask if Israeli books show Palestine. Why it it hateful for one side to deny the other, and not vice versa? [...] 32941 55 18_Re: Arab Land Grab12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Wed, 24 Dec 2003 23:00:13 +0200522_us-ascii Moshe, I read your whole posting ( twice) pondered your marshalling of piles of parallels to the Israeli situation and was left with this nugget: "The Treaty of Guadeloupe-Hidalgo helped make the squatting in California irreversible." It might occur to you that we have moved into a new time; a time of defensiveness but also modern plumbing. The age of the squatters is over. It left the country with the Turks and then definitively with the passing of the British. Colonialism is out. Is Menshlichkeit in? [...] 32997 83 27_Re: sentencing of murderers12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Wed, 24 Dec 2003 23:27:29 +0200532_us-ascii Pearl wrote

>Ami Popper, who killed 7 Arabs and injured 15, was given 7 or 8 life sentences plus more time for the injured. His sentence was lowered to 40 years only recently. Ami (now called Yehezkel) claimed to have been raped as a young boy by 4 Arabs, never got counseling afterwards, and when he saw one of the Arabs who raped him, ran home, got a gun and returned to shoot the man. He shot too many. I can not imagine Ami getting out anytime in the near or distant future. He is allowed home once a month [...] 33081 92 44_Give me some men who won't fight a dirty war12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Wed, 24 Dec 2003 23:37:00 +0200624_us-ascii Haverim/ot Monday's front page Ha'aretz carried the following headline "13 elite reservists refuse to serve in the territories" Read their reasons in my other posting of today. Keeping your cool when assailed as leftists, refusing to carry out commands that are patently immoral, running the gauntlet of hyper patriots, scorning the cant and the rant of the bloody minded was my reaction to the article under the headline. It ran along-side the photo in the attachment. Who are we protecting in the euphemistic territories? Where is the "pioneer" going to in his steel armored truck. How many soldiers will it [...] 33174 105 43_Re: pre six day war hysteria and the attack11_lewis levin19_lyaron@inter.net.il31_Thu, 25 Dec 2003 00:49:35 +0200498_ISO-8859-1

----- Original Message ----- From: Kleins Designs To: habonet@shamash.org Sent: Wednesday, December 24, 2003 8:08 PM Subject: Re: pre six day war hysteria and the attack



As far as I remember, Eshkol and Ben Gurion were afraid the US would withhold arms and supplies (which they did, through Kissinger's "Shuttle Diplomacy) if Israel were seen in any way as aggressing. I don't even understand the phrase "the war was not needed". Maybe you can clear that up? [...] 33280 91 15_Jew of the Year11_Phil Safier17_psafier@elixa.com31_Wed, 24 Dec 2003 16:49:24 -0700 33372 66 19_RE: Jew of the Year12_Stopak, Noam20_NStopak@orionsci.com31_Wed, 24 Dec 2003 19:16:36 -0500401_- FedEx Field near Washington DC. That's where the Washington Foreskins play. You can have em...

-----Original Message----- From: Phil Safier [mailto:psafier@elixa.com] Sent: Wednesday, December 24, 2003 6:49 PM To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: Jew of the Year



The Jerusalem Post has selected Paul Wolfowitz as its man of the year. Did they select Baruch Goldstein in 1994? [...] 33439 81 18_Re: Arab Land Grab13_pearl skolnik25_pskolnik@netvision.net.il31_Thu, 25 Dec 2003 09:44:30 +0200413_iso-8859-1 you forget that Turkish and British law from the mandate days still hold in Israel, which allows the land grab, sometimes by Jews as well. Change the laws, get rid of squatters rights which still abide in Israel, and then talk of menschlichkeit.

----- Original Message ----- From: Amnon Hadary To: habonet@shamash.org Sent: Wednesday, December 24, 2003 11:00 PM Subject: Re: Arab Land Grab [...] 33521 58 18_richard and others13_pearl skolnik25_pskolnik@netvision.net.il31_Thu, 25 Dec 2003 10:01:54 +0200620_windows-1255 Jerusalem was attacked from the hills around the city: all the artillery shells and shrapnel that fell on us came from the Long Tom artillery the Jordanians had on Nebi Samwil (land that was bought and settled by Jews in late 1800's), as well as from Bethlehem where the artillery was placed on a monastery which faced my neighborhood (from there they hit Hadassa Hospital, Ein Kerem). All the neighborhoods of Jerusalem were hit from adjoining Arab neighborhoods, thus the decision of the Eshkol government to build new neighborhoods on these surrounding hills and areas so that Jerusalem could never [...] 33580 39 28_The Green Line as propaganda28_Michal and Efraim Perlmutter24_habesor@netvision.net.il31_Thu, 25 Dec 2003 10:39:35 +0200430_us-ascii Noam, you wrote:

"Yes, it is quite clear. Good fodder for letters to editors and politicians."

The fact that a reading of the Armistice agreements makes it quite clear that the Green Line was not to be considered a political border will not prevent misinformed people from arguing the opposite. They will also argue that UNSC242 and 338 delineate the Green line as the border, which is also incorrect. [...] 33620 353 58_Re: FYI - Peace Process and Ultimatum by Jo-ana D'Balcazar14_Kleins Designs26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Thu, 25 Dec 2003 07:05:40 -0800604_iso-8859-1 MessageNoam

Now yer talkin'! I think the problem we have here is of communication. For right now, the Palestinians' maps of Palestine exist in the minds, hearts, dreams and desires of a people with strong aspirations for their own country, their own land. These maps don't really exist yet. At least not in finalised form. Not all Palestinians agree to the finalised borders of a future Palestinian state. Most of them, unless I really read them wrong, do not necessarily include an Israel, or even a Jewish people, in whole or part, but that is irrelevant to this discussion. But [...] 33974 323 58_RE: FYI - Peace Process and Ultimatum by Jo-ana D'Balcazar12_Stopak, Noam20_NStopak@orionsci.com31_Thu, 25 Dec 2003 12:57:03 -0500392_- Hi Steve,

Indeed there is a problem of communication. Please show me where I said that Israeli school books don't show Palestine? I asked for information and you perceived a polemic and now cast me as a Nazi. Sometimes people just want to know the facts, rather than spewing a one sided distorted view. Please don't project your own communication style and motives upon others. [...] 34298 113 21_Rak zeh haser lanu...13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il31_Thu, 25 Dec 2003 19:59:25 +0200445_windows-1255 Israeli 'Lost Tribes' Living in W. Bank Wed Dec 24, 5:24 AM ET

By GAVIN RABINOWITZ, Associated Press Writer

SHAVEI SHOMRON, West Bank - Some 2,700 years ago, 10 of the 12 biblical tribes of Israel were driven from the Holy Land into exile and the mists of history. Now, a group claiming descent from one of the lost tribes can be found sitting in a bomb shelter in a West Bank Jewish settlement, learning Hebrew. [...] 34412 47 20_Green lines and maps12_Doug Greener25_ddwgreen@netvision.net.il31_Thu, 25 Dec 2003 23:24:28 +0200280_windows-1255 Current Israeli maps show Areas A, B, and C. They do not show a Palestinian State, whose borders don't exist. They do not show the "green line." I had to bring in a pre-67 map to show the American students where I work, where the original green line was.

Trudy 34460 67 4_Huh?14_Kleins Designs26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Thu, 25 Dec 2003 23:18:29 -0800319_iso-8859-1 Noam

Where did I call you a Nazi? What in the world serves you to even claim I did? Twelve lines separate your name from the mention of Nazi aspirations, with NO connection implied or intended. I think we need another breather from each other. It's a shame. I was kind of enjoying the discourse. [...] 34528 101 8_RE: Huh?12_Stopak, Noam20_NStopak@orionsci.com31_Fri, 26 Dec 2003 09:05:41 -0500685_- Sure you didn't call me a Nazi. Those pictures of Sharon with a swastika are just innocent juxtaposition too.

Sure Steve, take a breather. Whatever it takes to avoid answering questions, eh?

Toodle-oo

Noam

-----Original Message----- From: Kleins Designs [mailto:kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com] Sent: Friday, December 26, 2003 2:18 AM To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: Huh?



Noam

Where did I call you a Nazi? What in the world serves you to even claim I did? Twelve lines separate your name from the mention of Nazi aspirations, with NO connection implied or intended. I think we need another breather from each other. It's a shame. I [...] 34630 59 12_email change16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Fri, 26 Dec 2003 12:13:04 -0500350_us-ascii Dear Habonetters:

I'm finally throwing in the towel and, after almost 8 years, dumping

AT&T as my internet service provider. My new email address, effective immediately, is

elihu. davison@verizon.net

Here's hoping that Judah Maccabee dropped lotsa loot down everyone's

chimney. Aleh u'bananas.

ELIHU 34690 46 7_erratum16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Fri, 26 Dec 2003 12:14:44 -0500139_us-ascii I mistyped my new email address. Corrected, it is

elihu.davison@verizon.net

No spaces between anything.

ELIHU 34737 223 28_from Friday's Jeruslaem Post13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il31_Sat, 27 Dec 2003 10:44:38 +0200750_windows-1255

Column one: Of intellectual bondage



---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Caroline Glick Dec. 26, 2003

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"How could you report the war in Iraq if you sided with the Americans?"

"How can you say that George Bush is better than Saddam Hussein?"

These are some of the milder questions I received from an audience of some 150 undergraduate students from Tel Aviv University's Political Science Department. The occasion was a guest lecture I gave last month on my experiences as an embedded reporter with the US Army's 3rd Infantry Division during the Iraq war. [...] 34961 88 40_a mishmash of mostly off-topic questions9_Ben-Moshe18_boazjana@shani.net31_Sat, 27 Dec 2003 16:20:11 +0200597_us-ascii Hi,

Please forgive me the off-topic intrusion. I know these are reeeal longshot questions, but given the diverse experience among our chevre... Anyway, you never know until you ask. (Yes, of course I'm also posting some of these inquiries in more usual/appropriate places and listservs.)

-Is there anyone among our Israeli chevre who works for/or knows a person who works for Kupat Cholim Maccabi? More specifically, someone nice and knowledgable that we might talk with more directly and informally for information and advice concerning navigating basket of services. [...] 35050 232 37_Hanukkah Map with little toy soldiers12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Sat, 27 Dec 2003 17:52:43 +0200 35283 601 116_=?UTF-8?Q?=D7=94=D7=A2=D7=91=D7=A8=D7=94:_CAROLINE_GLICK:_LEFTIST_STR?= =?UTF-8?Q?ANGLEHOLD_ON_ISRAEL_UNIVERSITIES?=5_marks25_molieric@netvision.net.il31_Sat, 27 Dec 2003 19:31:48 +0200367_UTF-8

Hevra,

After reading the following article I, at long last, understand that I no longer fit in with the Left (also with the Right), so I guess that my stand is as an Independent. Still, it's reporting should be close to your hearts in view of the constant exchange that's been sent between all of you these last few months (or so it feels). [...] 35885 173 44_=?UTF-8?B?15TXoteR16jXlDogQXJiYSBQaXp6YQ==?=5_marks25_molieric@netvision.net.il31_Sat, 27 Dec 2003 19:34:56 +0200456_UTF-8

----- Original Message ----- From: GME529@aol.com To: gershona111@yahoo.com Sent: Friday, December 26, 2003 5:20 AM Subject: Arba Pizza



Hi Gershona - Thought you would enjoy this article having been there. Don't hesitate to pass it on to reliable friends. - E

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Pizza and a Chat 22:52 Oct 30, '03 / 4 Cheshvan 5764 [...] 36059 57 24_RE: Green Lines and Maps14_Martin Goodman26_martinjgoodman@hotmail.com31_Sat, 27 Dec 2003 21:10:42 +0000345_- Shalom Trudy:

In your posting ""Green Lines and Maps"", you wrote,

"" Current Israeli maps show Areas A, B, and C. They do not show a Palestinian State, whose borders don't exist. They do not show the "green line... ""

I have frequently heard it stated that Israel prohibits publishing maps that show the Green Line. [...] 36117 264 24_Mitnachlim and Extremism14_Martin Goodman26_martinjgoodman@hotmail.com31_Sun, 28 Dec 2003 04:26:22 +0000506_- Shalom Sam,

In your response to my posting Style and Content in Discussion, you assert that I have not argued that rights of Palestinians should be honored. This assertion is false. I have in fact argued that no one, Jew or Arab, should be forcibly removed from their home as part of a peace agreement. I have also argued that religious and political beliefs are not valid reasons for removing individuals from their homes. You appear to have adopted opposite viewpoints on these issues. [...] 36382 755 41_Fw: Let's remove all fences in the world!13_pearl skolnik25_pskolnik@netvision.net.il31_Mon, 29 Dec 2003 00:19:42 +0200558_Windows-1252 Message Let's remove all fences in the world!



To our big surprise we discovered that there exist some fences and barriers in the world, outside of Israel. Some of them even can be found at major UN members.





First, we start with the fence between Mexico and the USA. There is really no need for this fence since the millions of illegal Mexicans in the United States do not commit suicide bomb attacks in American restaurants. Write to mr. Bush and mr. Powell today. (Nobody told them about this fence.) [...] 37138 27 12_address book10_David Baum23_rdbaum@netvision.net.il31_Mon, 29 Dec 2003 00:42:29 +0200528_windows-1255 WE FIND IT NECESSARY TO REDO OUR ADDRESS BOOK. sHOULD ANYONE ON THIS LIST HAVE OUR eMAIL ADDRESS IN THEIR PERSONAL ADDRESS BOOK Please send us a message to our personal email address so that we may stay in touch. Todah Rezzie and Dave Baum

>

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 37166 71 24_Re: Green Lines and Maps13_Dan Bernstein17_dsb1@nycap.rr.com31_Sun, 28 Dec 2003 18:16:46 -0500557_ISO-8859-1 for a map of Israel with the green line go to the ha'aretz site www.haaretzdaily.com click on map-it on the left(of course)

Martin Goodman wrote:

> Shalom Trudy: > > In your posting ""Green Lines and Maps"", you wrote, > > "" Current Israeli maps show Areas A, B, and C. They do not show a > Palestinian State, whose borders don't exist. They do not show the > "green line... "" > > I have frequently heard it stated that Israel prohibits publishing > maps that show the Green Line. > > On the one hand, the well-known Israeli [...] 37238 50 11_music in MD0_15_Marshlf@aol.com29_Mon, 29 Dec 2003 09:20:27 EST428_US-ASCII Any habochevre in the Balto-Wash area up for Cafe Tzedakah? This several-times-a-year coffee house features local musicians, some Jewish, some not. My husband's band plays the upcoming one, Sat Jan 3 at 7:30 at Mishkan Torah synagogue in Greenbelt. Admission is a canned food item, and a hat may be passed at intermission to benefit some other worthy charity. If you want more details, email me, marshlf@aol.com. --Lisa 37289 111 45_Israel News : Jerusalem Post Internet Edition16_Elihu D. Davison25_elihu.davison@verizon.net31_Mon, 29 Dec 2003 10:36:59 -0500106_us-ascii

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/Printer&cid=1072587532143 37401 201 25_Fw: The nightmare spreads13_pearl skolnik25_pskolnik@netvision.net.il31_Mon, 29 Dec 2003 22:36:01 +0200548_windows-1255

from Jonathan Safran: turgent article, relevant for us and necessary to read.

> > > The Nightmare Spreads > > > > > > December 26, 2003 - Suicide bombing is no longer just a Jewish problem. > > Indeed, the first targets of modern suicide bombing were not Jewish. These > > are the first recorded examples: > > December 1981: Destruction of the Iraqi embassy in Beirut (27 dead, over > 100 > > wounded). > > > > > > September 1982: Assassination of Lebanese President Bashir Gemayel. > > > > > > April 1983: Bombing [...] 37603 57 29_Re: Fw: The nightmare spreads12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Tue, 30 Dec 2003 08:42:13 +0200551_us-ascii

Haverot/im In HABONET Digest 2801 I found a word I didn't recognize "turgent" so I looked it up. Didn't find the word in a number of dictionaries so I decided to see whether its meaning could be discovered by the context. It appeared in the following sentence: >Jonathan Safran: turgent article, relevant for us and necessary to read on Word Web I found the following lead; *turgid* " adjective Ostentatiously lofty in style." An alternate definition is "Abnormally distended especially by fluids or gas." The nightmare spreads. [...] 37661 28 12_Lost Tribes.12_Doug Greener25_ddwgreen@netvision.net.il31_Mon, 29 Dec 2003 22:15:00 +0200436_windows-1255 A few months ago we heard a fascinating lecture by Hillel Halkin, who researched and wrote a book about the Bnei Menashe. He is convinced that they have Jewish antecedents and is working on their behalf to bring them to Israel and back to Judaism.

Many of these groups end up in the "west bank" because they are the only communities who will take them in while they are studying before their formal conversion. [...] 37690 50 28_Sun Microsystems Open Office14_Martin Goodman26_martinjgoodman@hotmail.com31_Tue, 30 Dec 2003 19:29:21 +0000426_- Shalom Elihu,

I just downloaded and installed Sun Microsystems' Open-Office Suite on my home computer (WINDOWS XP operating system). The download was about 70MB and the installation process entailed just a few mouse clicks and filling out a short registration form. The installation instructions and the application menus are in Hebrew; however the Help menus are substantially (or perhaps entirely) in English. [...] 37741 147 37_Jerusalem Post Poll on Fence Shooting13_Dan Bernstein17_dsb1@nycap.rr.com31_Tue, 30 Dec 2003 19:17:46 -0500492_us-ascii I was alerted to this Jerusalem Post poll by my wife who is on the ShomerNet. I know the Post is right wing but this is silly. I hope some of us will make this vote a little less one sided.

Date: 12/28/2003 10:27AM Subject: Re: [ShomerNet] Jerusalem Post Poll on Fence Shooting I think the best URL for this is http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/P/Poll&cid=1070346679662 [...] 37889 52 28_Re: Mitnachlim and Extremism0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com31_Wed, 31 Dec 2003 10:59:18 -0500566_iso-8859-1 Dear Marty. I am here on vacation in Florida with a bunch of otherwise mainstream American Jews who are very attached to Israel. They are all in agreement with me that the settlements must go. This is not a passive feeling but an active viseral feeling that these settlements are bad news. Many Israelis share those view. The settlers have mangaged to make the issue of support for the settlement seem like it is main stream to Israeli politics and life. Let me assure you it is not. The settlers are sucking the life blood out of Israel and someone [...] 37942 251 71_RE the pplight of Christians in Arab Countries- David Bedein-Front Page13_moshe sheskin24_moshes7@netvision.net.il55_Wed, 31 Dec 2003 12:48:10 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)530_iso-8859-1 A VERY HAPPY NEW YEAR TO ONE AND ALL. Especially to Christians living in the Middle East. Read on.

Moshe Sheskin

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1. "STATE OF PALESTINE" UNDER ISLAMIC SHARIA LAW The Palestinian Authority has adopted an official constitution based on Koranic "Sharia" Law, rendering all people living in the PA subject to Islamic Law. So writes independent investigative journalist David Bedein in Front Page Magazine.com. [...] 38194 213 28_Re: Mitnachlim and Extremism13_moshe sheskin24_moshes7@netvision.net.il55_Wed, 31 Dec 2003 12:57:52 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)557_iso-8859-1 Shalom Flesher. I just want to tell you that had your letter on Mitnachlim and Extremism been sent from Jerusalem or any other part of Israel, I probably would have accepted your concern with a lot more interest than I do now. I don't envy you your trips to Florida or any other place in order to get away from the cold weather however, you and the other concerned so called mainstream Jews', must give some thought to the feelings of Israelis, many of the "life sucking Israelis" as you put it, who are no longer amongst the living because [...] 38408 175 14_FORWARD : News16_Elihu D. Davison25_elihu.davison@verizon.net31_Wed, 31 Dec 2003 23:21:26 -050071_us-ascii

http://www.forward.com/issues/2004/04.01.02/news4.html