1 SHAMASH.ORG /usr/www/wwwhc/listserv/archives/habonet November 2003 2 71 24_Hadary Hall of Fame (tm)12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Sat, 01 Nov 2003 11:29:13 +0200594_iso-8859-1 Haverim/ot

When Kathee presented her bona fides as a Habonimnik > Gilboa 70-75, MB yood bet, Workshop Maayan Baruch, ….Rosh Gilboa 81..mother of two current habonimers,, former gezerite (84-90), < it brought me up short (sort of a realization of these are the generations of the heaven and of the earth when they were created …) So I decided to cull recent contributions to Habonet of an old movement commitment in order to begin anthologizing. To that end, freezing a moment of time in our movement's reactions to events and our members' take on them, I focus on the LA [...] 74 123 28_Re: Hadary Hall of Fame (tm)13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Sat, 01 Nov 2003 08:37:52 -0500572_us-ascii I am flattered but, to be fair, Susie's questions and struggles is what sparked the whole discussion. She is the one who is actually faced with going into Ralph's or paying more elsewhere and despite all her ambivalence about the strike, she isn't crossing the picket line!

The union put an ad in the Wash Post yesterday asking for support of the California strike but stopping short of asking us to boycott Safeway. And even if they do, the other chains in the area aren't connected to the ones in California. It is easy for me to be high-minded; it [...] 198 400 64_Fw: SWC Protests EU Poll: "Israel Biggest Threat To World Peace"14_Kleins Designs26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com30_Sat, 1 Nov 2003 07:51:52 -0800509_iso-8859-1 Simon Wiesenthal CenterThis one feels a bit like spitting into the wind, but sitting still and saying nothing feels worse.

Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: Simon Wiesenthal Center To: steve klein Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2003 6:00 AM Subject: SWC Protests EU Poll: "Israel Biggest Threat To World Peace"





EUROPEAN COMMISSION POLL: "ISRAEL IS THE BIGGEST THREAT TO WORLD PEACE." VOICE YOUR OUTRAGE DIRECTLY TO EUROPEAN COMMISSION PRESIDENT ROMANO PRODI [...] 599 42 28_Re: Hadary Hall of Fame (tm)0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com28_Sat, 1 Nov 2003 13:08:37 EST130_US-ASCII Amnon, can I be in the hall of fame too? I want to get in for my good looks and my modesty

Sam Flesher Pittsburgh. 642 858 61_Fw: Congressional Recognizes Dual Middle East Refugee Problem13_pearl skolnik25_pskolnik@netvision.net.il31_Sat, 01 Nov 2003 19:03:48 +0200709_iso-8859-1 Congressional Recognizes Dual Middle East Refugee Problem



News from the World Jewish Congress For Immediate Release



WJC Commends Congressional Recognition of Dual Middle East Refugee Problem

Statement by Dr. Avi Beker on Congressional Resolution



WASHINGTON, D.C., October 30, 2003 -- Dr. Avi Beker, Secretary General of the World Jewish Congress, commended Members of the House of Representatives for their leadership to "set the historic record straight" regarding the issue of Middle East refugees, and for the introduction of H. Con. Res. 311. "We are proud to have played a role in helping to focus attention on this issue which touches [...] 1501 85 43_US MISSILES TARGETED AGAINST IRAN BY ISRAEL11_Phil Safier17_psafier@elixa.com31_Sat, 01 Nov 2003 16:51:07 -0700701_us-ascii GLOBE-INTEL http://globe-intel.net/index.html Monday, October 27, 2003

US MISSILES TARGETED AGAINST IRAN BY ISRAEL by Gordon Thomas

US Harpoon missiles armed with nuclear warheads are now aimed by Israeli's fleet of Dolphin-class submarines against Iran's nuclear facilities. Following September's exclusive report in American Free Press about Israel's submarine nuclear attack capability, over 100 Harpoon cruise missiles have been secretly flown to the remote island of Diego Garcia, a joint UK-US base in the Indian Ocean. The three Israeli submarines which arrived at the base early this month were each loaded with 24 Harpoon missiles. They then set sail for the Gulf [...] 1587 40 44_Trent Lott: "just mow the whole place down."11_Phil Safier17_psafier@elixa.com31_Sat, 01 Nov 2003 17:01:15 -0700 1628 55 48_Re: Trent Lott: "just mow the whole place down."13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Sat, 01 Nov 2003 22:45:47 -0500192_us-ascii Phil-- In all seriousness--Who are you supporting for president this time? And do you still feel that Nadar was a better choice for your vote last time that Gore? Judy



1684 35 28_Re: Hadary Hall of Fame (tm)0_13_JLCAA@aol.com28_Sat, 1 Nov 2003 23:20:11 EST527_US-ASCII Thanks Amnon for the kind words and thoughts. I'm honored to be on a list with Hiam and Judy. And kol hakavod to Sue for sticking to her ideals -- even under stress! Stay the course Susie. All strikes come to an end. You just have to wait the SOBs out. The word I hear is that the Ralphs, Vons, Albertsons in Jewish areas have seen business drop by 70%. BTW, in Sept. Gallup released its annual labor day poll that found 60%+ Americans would join a union if they could and approve of the work unions do on behalf [...] 1720 181 23_Re: Picket Line Dilemma11_Hank Kaplan16_hkmg@comcast.net31_Sun, 02 Nov 2003 01:30:12 -0800629_us-ascii Okay, all this picket-line stuff is compelling me to emerge from lurkdom to add my 2 cents.

First, please don't generalize about unions any more than you would generalize about corporations. I don't think anyone on this list is so naive as to say that all corporations are good or bad, or greedy or generous, law-abiding, polluters, exploiters, or charitable saints. Different corporations are different, and some fall into several of those categories. Why the urge to generalize about the labor movement? Unions are all different, and the same union can be different at different times. Anyone who has seen [...] 1902 120 47_Re: US MISSILES TARGETED AGAINST IRAN BY ISRAEL14_Kleins Designs26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com30_Sun, 2 Nov 2003 06:38:32 -0800726_iso-8859-1 Phil

Thank you for the article!

Stevev ----- Original Message ----- From: "Phil Safier" To: Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2003 3:51 PM Subject: US MISSILES TARGETED AGAINST IRAN BY ISRAEL



> GLOBE-INTEL > http://globe-intel.net/index.html > Monday, October 27, 2003 > > US MISSILES TARGETED AGAINST IRAN BY ISRAEL > by > Gordon Thomas > > US Harpoon missiles armed with nuclear warheads are now aimed by Israeli's > fleet of Dolphin-class submarines against Iran's nuclear facilities. > Following September's exclusive report in American Free Press about Israel's > submarine nuclear attack capability, over 100 Harpoon cruise missiles have [...] 2023 90 28_Re: Hadary Hall of Fame (tm)14_Kleins Designs26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com30_Sun, 2 Nov 2003 07:01:44 -0800355_iso-8859-1 Sam

I consider myself lucky to make it down the hall!.

Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: Smfgrappa@aol.com To: habonet@shamash.org Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2003 10:08 AM Subject: Re: Hadary Hall of Fame (tm)



Amnon, can I be in the hall of fame too? I want to get in for my good looks and my modesty [...] 2114 69 33_To Hank---Re: Picket Line Dilemma0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com28_Sun, 2 Nov 2003 10:50:23 EST607_US-ASCII In a message dated 11/2/2003 1:34:34 AM Pacific Standard Time, hkmg@comcast.net writes: Blame the unions for losing auto plants or film jobs, but people still gotta eat locally. It's a good place to make a stand. SO what you are saying is that the grocery clerks are worth more as union members than film workers or autoworkers or textile workers ( the problems in North Carolina where textiles industry is now going to China)--who lost their careers and homes and self-respect because unions attempted to price themselves out of the market, putting management in the position to say the hell [...] 2184 82 25_Creative Union Approaches0_13_JLCAA@aol.com28_Sun, 2 Nov 2003 11:22:05 EST579_US-ASCII In a message dated 11/2/03 10:51:07 AM Eastern Standard Time, LiberHawke@aol.com writes:



> unions need to take a different more creative tact now that there is real > competition from a global market

How about worldwide unions to counter the worldwide shifting of corporate profits.

We once tried to get Israeli unions to go on strike in support of American workers who worked for the same multi-national. We know from inside intelligence that it scared hell out of the company, but ultimately we couldn't get the Israelis to go along. [...] 2267 176 47_Re: US MISSILES TARGETED AGAINST IRAN BY ISRAEL13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il30_Sun, 2 Nov 2003 18:26:45 +0200417_iso-8859-1 Phil, I would take this article with a grain of salt. Ok, perhaps a bag of salt.

Consider: the Israeli Navy has deployed the Harpoon missile since the early 1980's and, presumably, we already have our own nuclear warheads. So why would our submarines have to travel to Diego Garcia to pick up missiles and payloads that we already have? Finally, why would the Americans give us these missiles? [...] 2444 122 42_Re: Picket Line Dilemma, sneakers and cars12_Stopak, Noam20_NStopak@orionsci.com30_Sun, 2 Nov 2003 13:28:54 -0500390_- Hi Sue,

Are you saying that grocery clerks whose jobs won't be exported shouldn't unionize because of problems in other industries?

Why do you feel compelled to attack the people with whom you disagree? I'm referring to your assertion that people who are supporting the supermarket strike are buying sweatshop shoes and clothes. What is the basis for your accusations? [...] 2567 57 38_The Democratic Presidential Candidates14_Martin Goodman26_martinjgoodman@hotmail.com31_Sun, 02 Nov 2003 18:50:24 +0000344_- In quieter times, I and many other American Jews have not payed close attention to viewpoints of U.S. Presidential candidates on the subject of the conflict between Israel and it's Arab neigbors. However, in light of the difficulty of Israel's current situation, views of the candidates about Israel are moving up on my priorities list. [...] 2625 33 23_Re: Picket Line Dilemma13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Sun, 02 Nov 2003 14:28:22 -0500550_ISO-8859-1 At least in this area, the grocery chain with the best historical benefits and pay has now gone to self-scanning. I must admit I personally prefer as a method of check out just as I prefer ATMs to dealing with a bank clerk. Right now, the stores have lots of people to help bag and trouble shoot, but clearly even with that a store needs fewer employees per consumer with this technology. We are going to see a lot more of this type of "productivity improving" technology in the service sector. When was the last time you dealt a gas [...] 2659 123 42_RE: The Democratic Presidential Candidates12_Stopak, Noam20_NStopak@orionsci.com30_Sun, 2 Nov 2003 14:29:54 -0500540_- Hi Marty,

Thanks for the link. I was worried about a quote from Dean (the bit about not taking sides), and I see it in the final paragraph on the subject at the site's section on Dean, but really, reading the whole item, I'm not sure why you have a negative view of Dean. Here's what the web site you mentioned says. Do you object to his conclusion that settlements will have to be ceeded in order to reach an peaceful resolution of the conflict? Surely his view of Arafat and his recognition that the PA must be reformed and [...] 2783 47 23_RE: Picket Line Dilemma12_Stopak, Noam20_NStopak@orionsci.com30_Sun, 2 Nov 2003 14:36:56 -0500710_- Indeed. Even people in high tech industries aren't immune. See the article in today's Washington Post about IT outsourcing by former Secretary of Labor Robert Reich:

washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A49318-2003Oct31.html

Noam

-----Original Message----- From: Judith Gelman [mailto:gelman@erols.com] Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2003 2:28 PM To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: Re: Picket Line Dilemma



At least in this area, the grocery chain with the best historical benefits and pay has now gone to self-scanning. I must admit I personally prefer as a method of check out just as I prefer ATMs to dealing with a bank clerk. Right now, the stores have lots of people to [...] 2831 169 42_Re: The Democratic Presidential Candidates13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Sun, 02 Nov 2003 14:46:55 -0500599_x-mac-roman Great website! Thanks a million. Judy

Martin Goodman wrote:

> In quieter times, I and many other American Jews have not payed close > attention to viewpoints of U.S. Presidential candidates on the subject > of the conflict between Israel and it's Arab neigbors. However, in > light of the difficulty of Israel's current situation, views of the > candidates about Israel are moving up on my priorities list. > > In order to participate in the primaries, I will have to change my > registration; I have been registered with the Green Party in > California for about the [...] 3001 64 42_Re: Picket Line Dilemma, sneakers and cars0_15_DebALev@aol.com28_Sun, 2 Nov 2003 15:26:31 EST324_US-ASCII In a message dated 11/2/2003 1:26:15 PM Eastern Standard Time, NStopak@orionsci.com writes:

"You've mentioned cars a few times now. My Honda was made in Ohio. What's wrong with that? Yes I know that many of the parts were made elsewhere, but that is also true of GM, Ford and (Daimler)Chrysler models." [...] 3066 225 42_Re: The Democratic Presidential Candidates14_Kleins Designs26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com30_Sun, 2 Nov 2003 14:57:34 -0800682_iso-8859-1 Marty

What is the funny E with the chupchik over it?

Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: Judith Gelman To: habonet@shamash.org Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2003 11:46 AM Subject: Re: The Democratic Presidential Candidates



Great website! Thanks a million. Judy

Martin Goodman wrote:

In quieter times, I and many other American Jews have not payed close attention to viewpoints of U.S. Presidential candidates on the subject of the conflict between Israel and it's Arab neigbors.Ê However, in light of the difficulty of Israel's current situation, views of the candidates about Israel are moving up on my priorities list. [...] 3292 62 10_Wrong link13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il30_Mon, 3 Nov 2003 07:15:22 +0200205_windows-1255 The link to George Thomas's article about Alan Dershowitz is:

http://www.yourmailinglistprovider.com/pubarchive.php?globeintel+148

Sent the wrong one yesterday. Sorry.

Jon 3355 49 23_Re: Picket Line Dilemma12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Mon, 03 Nov 2003 08:49:03 +0200372_us-ascii Hank Me, too. Welcome on your coming out of lurkdom. That was a balanced, informative, altogether wonderful piece. Beware however, our sages said: hatkin atzmekha ba-prozdor khedei sh-tikaness le-traklin. (prepare yourself in the vestibule to enter the hall.) You are dangerously close to entering the hall. Lurkdom, however, is frowned upon like loitering. Amnon 3405 91 37_Re: To Hank---Re: Picket Line Dilemma11_Hank Kaplan16_hkmg@comcast.net31_Mon, 03 Nov 2003 01:10:32 -0800604_us-ascii Obviously, that is not what I said. I'll let better minds argue whether it's good or bad, but there's no denying the fact that we've been exporting manufacturing jobs for two decades and there's not a lot the labor movement has been able to do about it. Non-union jobs get exported, too. Lack of creativity has nothing to do with it -- foreign workers are cheap, and foreign plants are less regulated. As a consequence, the unions in the goods/manufacturing sector typically have less bargaining power than service-sector unions, whether we like it or not. Blaming job exports on desperate [...] 3497 86 33_Howard Dean and Voting Republican14_Martin Goodman26_martinjgoodman@hotmail.com31_Mon, 03 Nov 2003 09:20:52 +0000452_- 3 November 2003



Shalom Noam:

Answering your questions in reverse order:

I. "" Please help an old friend understand why you (apparently) identify with the Democratic party (or the Greens) but may vote Republican. ""

Not once since I began voting in 1974 have I ever voted for a Republican candidate. Moreover, I will not vote for Bush in 2004 because in my view Bush is not just a bad wizard, he is a bad man. [...] 3584 39 37_RE: Howard Dean and Voting Republican12_Stopak, Noam20_NStopak@orionsci.com30_Mon, 3 Nov 2003 07:00:40 -0500566_- Hi Marty,

Thank you for your reply - I'll go back to front too :-)

I haven't yet decided upon a candidate to support, though I'm leaning toward Dean. Still plenty of homework to do over the next couple of months.

I've heard Bush, who you identify as one posturing as a friend of Israel, speak against the fence and also against preemptive attacks against terrorists, so I'm not sure I see where Dean's occasional remarks on the topic place him outside the realm of friends of Israel. I've heard plenty of Israelis take similar positions. [...] 3624 86 37_Re: Howard Dean and Voting Republican13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Mon, 03 Nov 2003 07:22:48 -0500286_x-mac-roman Dear Marty,

SInce I think that the settlements are an impediment to peace, Dean's sharing that view is a plus rather than a minus to me. I also believe that Israel has a right to defend itself and am critical of the passive and active means by which it does so. [...] 3711 65 42_Re: The Democratic Presidential Candidates0_13_JLCAA@aol.com28_Mon, 3 Nov 2003 10:23:08 EST609_US-ASCII In a message dated 11/2/03 1:50:58 PM Eastern Standard Time, martinjgoodman@hotmail.com writes:



> Ask old-time Mapainikim from Tel Aviv and Haifa how they voted

Actually, most of the Mapainikim in Haifa voted Shinui. Long time labor party member Yona Yahav had been passed over by Labor just a few too many times Yona was the candidate of choice before Mitzna became the darling of Haifa labor. Yona got 2nd place - a Kenesset seat. When they pass over Yonah this time, it was too much. Shinui approached him and he jumped parties. As election day drew closer in Haifa and [...] 3777 58 23_Re: Picket Line Dilemma0_13_JLCAA@aol.com28_Mon, 3 Nov 2003 10:26:55 EST404_US-ASCII In a message dated 11/2/03 2:22:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, gelman@erols.com writes:



> When was the last time you dealt a gas station > attendant?

In New jersey we deal with them all the time. For some arcane reason it is the law in NJ that gas must be dispensed by an attendant which is actually quite nice during the winter months. You never have to get out of your car! 3836 260 60_Because I know you will find valuable information here......14_Kleins Designs26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com30_Mon, 3 Nov 2003 07:31:17 -0800414_iso-8859-1 AN ATTORNEY'S ADVICE

A corporate attorney sent the following out to the employees in his company:

* The next time you order checks have only your initials (instead of first name) and last name put on them.

* If someone takes your check book they will not know if you sign your checks with just your initials or your first name but your bank will know how you sign your checks. [...] 4097 68 7_kibbutz16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Mon, 03 Nov 2003 10:45:44 -0500671_us-ascii FYI: The new book on the Israeli kibbbutz movement, written by Jo-Ann Mort and Gary Brenner--see below--is now available. It can be purchased online from Powell's Books (a wonderful unionized book store in Portland, Or.) through the LaborStart webpage online at:

http://www.labourstart.org/powells.shtml

Also, hopefully, at your local bookstore.

A special event will take place at the Jewish Community Center of Manhattan on Wednesday, November 5th. For those in the New York area at that time, Jo-Ann Mort and Garby Brenner will talk about the kibbutz today in the context of the changes in Israeli society from a socialist economy to [...] 4166 52 26_Re: Howard Dean and Choice11_Carol Shore21_c_shore@ix.netcom.com30_Mon, 3 Nov 2003 10:56:10 -0500638_iso-8859-1 This Habonet lurker feels compelled to jump in here. Thank you, Judy, for your succinct analysis of what is happening with this administration. These are truly efficient, very scary white men behind Dubya, dolt or not. My greatest fear about Dean is the electibility factor. I believe the urban legends going around that Karl Rove is simply licking his chops in anticipation of Dean being the Dem candidate. Putting Rove's carniverous bent together with Dean's short stature (not discriminating here, we are a short family, but looking at historical facts, no short candidate has ever won. Americans like their presidents [...] 4219 32 23_Re: Picket Line Dilemma0_15_DebALev@aol.com28_Mon, 3 Nov 2003 11:09:23 EST563_US-ASCII In a message dated 11/3/2003 10:29:57 AM Eastern Standard Time, JLCAA@aol.com writes:

In New jersey we deal with them all the time. For some arcane reason it is the law in NJ that gas must be dispensed by an attendant which is actually quite nice during the winter months. You never have to get out of your car! Oregon too. When we drove from there cross country (HAD to go to Powell's Books in Portland!), we started to pump our gas, and the attendant ran out, waving his arms and shouting "You can't do that!" Interestingly, NJ And OR have [...] 4252 68 26_Re: Howard Dean and Choice13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Mon, 03 Nov 2003 12:05:04 -0500410_us-ascii Dear Carol, Carter was shorter than Ford and W. is shorter than Gore (but do we count that as a win?) However, I take your general point and I agree that electability is ultimately what it is all about. Personally, I just don't see Kerry or Gephart or Clark as exciting enough to get elected either and the rest don't have a snowball's chance on an August day. See you on the Mall in April. Judy [...] 4321 28 23_Re: Picket Line Dilemma0_18_Yentateleb@aol.com31_Mon, 03 Nov 2003 12:54:02 -0500385_iso-8859-1 In a message dated 11/3/2003 10:26:55 AM Eastern Standard Time, JLCAA writes: When was the last time you dealt a gas station attendant?

In New jersey we deal with them all the time. For some arcane reason it is the law in NJ that gas must be dispensed by an attendant which is actually quite nice during the winter months. You never have to get out of your car! [...] 4350 185 14_NJ.com: Search16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Mon, 03 Nov 2003 12:57:53 -0500 4536 35 26_Re: Howard Dean and Choice13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il30_Mon, 3 Nov 2003 19:58:46 +0200575_iso-8859-1 I'm pretty much a lurker myself when it comes to American politics. The last (and first as well) candidate I voted for was George McGovern, so I'm a little out of it. But being a political junkie, I always take an interest. I have a question for the voting Americans on the list. So far, you've expressed yourselves about the candidates you like or dislike almost entirely in terms of their domestic agendas. Well and good, but I'm interested in knowing how you feel about the candidates in relation to the war on terror, and defense and security in general. [...] 4572 42 23_RE: Picket Line Dilemma6_Kathee26_holycowfoods@earthlink.net30_Mon, 3 Nov 2003 10:06:52 -0800644_iso-8859-1 And I for one love it!

-----Original Message----- From: owner-habonet@shamash.org [mailto:owner-habonet@shamash.org]On Behalf Of Yentateleb@aol.com Sent: Monday, November 03, 2003 9:54 AM To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: Re: Picket Line Dilemma

In a message dated 11/3/2003 10:26:55 AM Eastern Standard Time, JLCAA writes: When was the last time you dealt a gas station attendant?

In New jersey we deal with them all the time. For some arcane reason it is the law in NJ that gas must be dispensed by an attendant which is actually quite nice during the winter months. You never have to get out of your car! [...] 4615 625 63_The Jerusalem Report Magazine Columnists Columnists Article.htm12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Mon, 03 Nov 2003 21:48:59 +0200345_us-ascii Haverim/ot This is the first of two attachments I'm posting from The Jerusalem Report magazine. There is an evil miasma; an unwholesome vapor rising from the ground of the holy land. It is a pestilent Kahanism that must be expunged. In an homage to Yitzhak Rabin, Hirsh Goodman analyzes what happened then and where it has led us. [...] 5241 626 63_The Jerusalem Report Magazine Columnists Columnists Article.htm12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Mon, 03 Nov 2003 22:01:58 +0200326_us-ascii And this is the second attachment from the Report. It is written by Gershom Gorenberg. Entitled "Prefer Peace to the Temple Mount, it reminds me of Moshe Dayan's terse dictum before the Yom Kippur War; "if I have to choose between peace and Sharm el Sheikh, I'll keep Sharm el Sheikh. " He lost both, of course. [...] 5868 27 28_Dear Pearl Pearlson Skolnick0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com31_Mon, 03 Nov 2003 15:08:43 -0500513_iso-8859-1 Dear Pearl.

I will buy Dershowitz's book and read it. One thing I will bet you a dollar that Dershowitz does not say is "The settlements are not an obstacle to peace." I bet you he does not even believe that. I will bet you another thing he does not say is the Baruch Goldstein was a nice guy who just had a bad day. I will bet you another thing he won't say is that the Shin Bet killed Rabin and framed Yigal Amir. Of course we know who says all of those things. Its you Pearl. Maybe that [...] 5896 324 19_Habonim Dror Report10_Josh Cohen22_mazkir@habonimdror.org30_Mon, 3 Nov 2003 15:20:13 -0500623_US-ASCII Habonim Dror Report





* Welcome

To our new Central Shlicha, Yona Prital, and her husband Shlomo from Kibbutz Ma'ale Hachamisha.

* Machanot

We had a very up and down summer. Some Machanot did very well and others very poorly. For instance Galil (Philadelphia) and Moshava (Maryland) were completely for or very close and Na'aleh (New York) had its best summer since reopening. On the other side Gilboa (California) is in a dire situation. It only opened on a limited basis last summer and with half as many kids as they need to run successfully. On top of all of that [...] 6221 79 26_Re: Howard Dean and Choice14_Kleins Designs26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com30_Mon, 3 Nov 2003 13:14:13 -0800592_iso-8859-1 Carol

I am with you. What it would take for me to feel right about blasting Bush and the bunch out of office is the assurance from one or more of the other candidates that they would show heart in dealing with terrorism, and that they modify the idea of "even-handedness" in dealing with the Middle East conflict. Even-handedness usually means imparting a moral equivalency to suicide bombers and equating construction of West-Bank settlements with the Arabs' sworn oath to push the Jews into the sea. If I were a moslem, that would seem attractive to me. But I'm not, [...] 6301 66 14_Habonim update6_bencee17_bencee@nyc.rr.com30_Mon, 3 Nov 2003 17:14:36 -0500296_iso-8859-1 Welcome, welcome, welcome! At long last, some news about HABONIM on Habonet, of all the unlikely places! For the past several months I have been wondering if, perhaps, this site has been misnamed, since, apparently, none of our participants have any interest in Habonim, whatsover. Ben 6368 38 18_Re: Habonim update0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com28_Mon, 3 Nov 2003 19:29:56 EST645_US-ASCII

In a message dated 11/3/03 2:21:06 PM, bencee@nyc.rr.com writes:

<< since, apparently, none of our participants have any interest in Habonim, whatsover. >>

Ben- This site was not a creation of "Habonim Alumni"- and it is also a little unfair to say it has no interest in Habonim- since many of its vocal participants are active on their camp committees and as advisors to Habonim ( - namely Aliyah Cheskis-Kotel, Hank Albert, Sqam Bergman- who helped to create the Habonim Foundation site-etc.)...But just as there is no formal alumni organization, this site is not formally an extension of Habonim/Dror- but [...] 6407 70 8_sad news13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Mon, 03 Nov 2003 21:51:02 -0500411_ISO-8859-15 Dear Friends,

Blanche Glickman, wife of Albert, mother of Ralph, Marc, Judi (Shinder) and Debbie (Charles) and grandmother of Rachel, Josh and Ben Shnider, all of Mosh, (and also grandmother to Debbie's two pitzelach) died today. The funeral is Wednesday at 11 AM at Levinson's in Pikesville, MD. The family is gathering at Debbie's home in Baltimore for shiva. I don't know the address [...] 6478 148 18_Re: Habonim update0_14_KBob24@aol.com28_Mon, 3 Nov 2003 23:15:40 EST313_US-ASCII Sue (and all Habonetters):

After reading your post, I would like to clear up some misunderstandings about Habonet, how it started and who sponsors it. I do this not only for the sake of accuracy but I hope it reminds us all at least partially why we spend time in an alumni chat environment. [...] 6627 109 18_Re: Habonim update15_Brian S. Cooper21_brian@cooperspace.net31_Mon, 03 Nov 2003 23:20:04 -0500644_iso-8859-1 Thanks you Ken for this excellent clarification. Perhaps I should send out a renewed mission statement every so often that will incorporate these comments.

Regards, Brian



----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, November 03, 2003 11:15 PM Subject: Re: Habonim update



> Sue (and all Habonetters): > > After reading your post, I would like to clear up some misunderstandings > about Habonet, how it started and who sponsors it. I do this not only for the sake > of accuracy but I hope it reminds us all at least partially why we spend time > [...] 6737 134 18_RE: Habonim update0_25_batel_libes@earthlink.net30_Mon, 3 Nov 2003 22:01:04 -0800594_iso-8859-1 Nonetheless, Habonet could provide a nice bridge to the current movement to those who are not part of a camp committees or have children in the Movement. If nothing else, it might help fill gaps where some exist and where the alumni community can contribute and support.

That said, I can't resist throwing the pitch for Gilboa. If anyone knows of anyone who might have "connections" in finding a site for the 2004 summer, please get in touch with the Gilboa camp committee a.s.a.p. We really are fighting for this machane's life out here, but can't do anything without a [...] 6872 64 32_Re: Dear Pearl Pearlson Skolnick13_pearl skolnik25_pskolnik@netvision.net.il31_Tue, 04 Nov 2003 08:34:00 +0200549_iso-8859-1 I did not say Amir was framed by shin bet. It is the Rabin family itself, all of them, that have said they wanted another investigation of what happened. They were influenced by what was written and told them afterwards by people involved. There are a lot of strange things out there, and questioning is very important -- who am I to say what really happened? But, knowing what I know I am very sceptical of what I read. There have been others framed who came out white as snow, so it is right to question. Condemn, but concede that [...] 6937 207 32_Re: Dear Pearl Pearlson Skolnick0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com28_Tue, 4 Nov 2003 07:04:27 EST397_US-ASCII In a message dated 11/4/2003 1:32:45 AM Eastern Standard Time, pskolnik@netvision.net.il writes: I will answer Pearl line by line......my style. > > I did not say Amir was framed by shin bet.

Pearl's words a come back to haunt her.



I> -- who am I to say what really happened?

Indeed Pearl who are you to say what happenned? Maybe you should stop trying. [...] 7145 50 18_Re: Habonim update0_17_Aviva5675@aol.com28_Tue, 4 Nov 2003 10:59:56 EST312_US-ASCII While I can't give any help re finding a new site for Gilboa, if the worst happens and there is no west coast machaneh -- send 'em to Tavor! We will be happy to have the kids and will ship them back filled with good midwestern values..

*** before anyone gets started--- THAT WAS A JOKE! *** [...] 7196 52 25_Uh-Oh--Re: Habonim update0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com28_Tue, 4 Nov 2003 12:22:29 EST589_UTF-8 Firstly, I want to apologize to Ken and Brian, without whom this site certainly would not be possible. And I would like to thank Ken for his clarification. HOWEVER, I must point out the fact that I resent being "classified" as a "member" of the Habonim Dror Foundation, and that it is assumed that the membership of this list is considered a "membership" of a fundraising organization ——that the Foundation is our "mouthpiece." Barring any "hidden agendas," I hope that we are seen as more that dollar signs to the current membership of Habonim Dror- but I actually have no [...] 7249 102 29_Re: Uh-Oh--Re: Habonim update0_14_Ohanka@aol.com28_Tue, 4 Nov 2003 16:27:15 EST419_UTF-8

In a message dated 11/4/03 12:30:36 PM, LiberHawke@aol.com writes:

<< Firstly, I want to apologize to Ken and Brian, without whom this site

certainly would not be possible. And I would like to thank Ken for his clarification.

HOWEVER, I must point out the fact that I resent being "classified" as a

"member" of the Habonim Dror Foundation, and that it is assumed that the [...] 7352 60 24_Glickman (Shnider) Shiva13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Tue, 04 Nov 2003 17:01:24 -0500207_ISO-8859-15 Dear Friends in the Mosh area,

Shiva for Blanche Glickman will be held on Wed and Thurs at 7:30 PM at 2203 South Rd, Balt, MD phone: 410-578-0803

Warmly, Judy Gelman



7413 44 38_To Hank--Re: Uh-Oh--Re: Habonim update0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com28_Tue, 4 Nov 2003 17:17:47 EST585_US-ASCII

In a message dated 11/4/03 1:36:29 PM, Ohanka@aol.com writes:

<< I admit it is an interesting intellectual exercise to discuss whether to shop

at Ralphs or not, but here is a crisis in Southern Calif. >>

It wasn't an intellectual excercise- it was a life crisis which some of us old-time union people were facing as part of our every-day life; to tell the truth, though, it is really nothing in view of what has happened out here to people who have lost everything. I am not saying camp isn't important, and I am sure the tnuah is facing its [...] 7458 107 19_final reply to s.f.13_pearl skolnik25_pskolnik@netvision.net.il31_Wed, 05 Nov 2003 00:22:43 +0200539_iso-8859-1 I don't know what your case is sam, but Yigal Amir is guilty and Dr.Goldstein did the dastardly deed. there is no argument here. So what are you carrying on for? I once wrote that I read something interesting, and from that you build a case against me that I believe x because I read Y? or because I commented on it? One can comment about something without believing it to be true. Because I knew and respected Dr. Goldstein as a doctor -- as did thousands of others (Arabs and Jews), I am to be condemned because of this? [...] 7566 169 29_Re: Uh-Oh--Re: Habonim update13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Tue, 04 Nov 2003 18:02:49 -0500348_UTF-8 Whoa, Sue--

Where is this coming from? Habonim Dror is still a YOUTH movement. There is a very limited role for alumni except in supporting them to continue to run their own movement and one of the major ways of supporting them IS financial. There are other ways, but that is one of the things they really need from their alumni. [...] 7736 27 25_Apology and clarification0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com28_Tue, 4 Nov 2003 19:45:06 EST540_US-ASCII I just want people to know that I didn't mean Habonim or the work people are doing was "irrelevant"- The word came up in context of a certain age group and the impact of the movement as it is here in LA today to those of that age group. It may be sad and wrong- but some people are feeling that and it isn't just me. Also- the work of the Habonim foundation is obviously important and meaningful- --and while it may finance this list, it doesn't mean everyone on it is in the foundation "schichva" ---at any rate- enough--and [...] 7764 157 23_RE: Habonim Dror Report0_25_batel_libes@earthlink.net30_Tue, 4 Nov 2003 16:54:00 -0800519_US-ASCII In the Habonim Dror Report it was noted that some machanot did well and others did not. Gilboa, which I attend, did not do so well. The report said that "it was sold out from under them" and I think that that is bull. The Gilboa camp committee knew that the owners wanted to sell for quite a while and did little if any work on fundraising. So there was an opportunity to buy it, but they blew it. Lets take responsibility for our actions or lack of and address the problem that Gilboa needs a site ASAP. [...] 7922 130 32_from Julia Greenwald, new member16_Greenwald Family21_greenwfam@charter.net30_Tue, 4 Nov 2003 21:57:32 -0800521_iso-8859-1 Shalom to all. My name is Julia Greenwald, and I have 2 sons who were/are chanichim at Gilboa for the past 5 years. They love Habonim, and the ideals of the movement, as much as I did at their age - I was in Hashomer Hatzair in NY ( Rosh Ken Bronx, 1974-76), went on Machon L'Madrichei Chutz L'Aretz in '73. I joined the habonet because I am a parent who would love to see Gilboa succeed - and i have become involved only in the past several weeks in the efforts to see that happen. The decision was made [...] 8053 61 21_Final reply to Pearl.0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com31_Wed, 05 Nov 2003 10:22:24 -0500584_iso-8859-1 In a message dated 11/4/2003 5:22:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, pskolnik@netvision.net.il writes:

> > I don't know what your case is sam, but Yigal Amir is guilty and > Dr.Goldstein did the dastardly deed. there is no argument here. So what > are you carrying on for?

Becaue lots of times you have indicated that you did not believe what you said above. I can give you chapter and verse but it is good that you have finally stopped appologizing for those folks. Indeed I am thrilled to hear you finally say this with no qualifactions and no happy stories [...] 8115 106 16_A Urgent Request0_14_KBob24@aol.com28_Wed, 5 Nov 2003 11:43:46 EST596_US-ASCII I hope no one objects to this use of Habonet.

Zipoike Gringeller, long time executive secretary at the kibbutz movement and the last ten years Muki Tsur's secretary, is very ill and needs our help. She will be undergoing by-pass surgery at Hadassah Hospital, and then a kidney transplant in South Africa. The estimated cost of the transplant is $120,000 - $150,000. A request for contributions has been sent to all the kibbutzim and been posted on the Kibbutz Movement's web-site. We have been asked to post this request on Habonet as well, since many of us had contact with [...] 8222 201 7_2 cents14_Kleins Designs26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com30_Wed, 5 Nov 2003 08:55:05 -0800542_iso-8859-1 Sam

Nobody asked, but it might be time to retire to opposite corners with you and Pearl. Not for us (The Great Bulk), but for you. Reading the stuff, I don't think you haven't covered what it was the other needed to know on the subject.

What wasn't said, however, is a tiny piece of the argument on what constitutes evil. Re: Dr. Goldstein, Sam, it does not have to be true that a person has to be psychopathic or unstable or evil to do what he did. Sure, these things could all be true. They just don't have to [...] 8424 195 37_Paul Wolfowitz and Other "Court Jews"11_Phil Safier17_psafier@elixa.com31_Wed, 05 Nov 2003 11:58:58 -0700348_us-ascii Let's find out this self-hating Jew's background, who he voted for and plans to support next year so we can discredit him and dismiss his arguments. Yeah, that's the ticket! Rational discourse is like so 20th Century.

CounterPunch

March 14, 2003 An Open Letter to Paul Wolfowitz To My Former Dean and Other "Court Jews" [...] 8620 57 51_House Concert: Albert Kaufman, Seattle December 7th14_Albert Kaufman18_albi@earthlink.net30_Wed, 5 Nov 2003 11:43:03 -0800443_iso-8859-1



Hi there Haboniks,

Missing midurot?

I'm planning on performing a house concert at Craig and Julie's house, 3308 19th Ave. S. on Beacon Hill on December 7th. Tentative plans are to open the house at 6pm for snacking and schmoozing, and then music begins at 7pm. $8-10 admission and noone is left out due to lack of funds (ie, give what you can). Contributions of drink and snacks are also welcome. [...] 8678 76 25_Re: Final reply to Pearl.13_pearl skolnik25_pskolnik@netvision.net.il31_Wed, 05 Nov 2003 22:30:43 +0200608_iso-8859-1 a rachmonus.

----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 5:22 PM Subject: Final reply to Pearl.



> In a message dated 11/4/2003 5:22:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, pskolnik@netvision.net.il writes: > > > > > I don't know what your case is sam, but Yigal Amir is guilty and > > Dr.Goldstein did the dastardly deed. there is no argument here. So what > > are you carrying on for? > > Becaue lots of times you have indicated that you did not believe what you said above. I can give you chapter and verse [...] 8755 38 11_Re: 2 cents0_14_Ohanka@aol.com28_Wed, 5 Nov 2003 15:29:51 EST373_US-ASCII

In a message dated 11/5/03 11:53:27 AM, kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com writes:

<< it does not have to be true that a person has to be psychopathic or unstable or evil to do what he did. Sure, these things could all be true. They just don't have to be. I have been in plenty of situations (and I trust, so have you) where a person has just snapped. [...] 8794 38 11_RE: 2 cents12_Stopak, Noam20_NStopak@orionsci.com30_Wed, 5 Nov 2003 15:40:24 -0500644_- Amen.

-----Original Message----- From: Ohanka@aol.com [mailto:Ohanka@aol.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 3:30 PM To: kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com; habonet@shamash.org Subject: Re: 2 cents

...

Yes Steve, I think it may just be you. If a person has "just snapped," they are indeed psychopathic or unstable. If not then they are indeed evil. And I don't think Sam needs to let up on Pearl. It is interesting that you suggested only that Sam desist from his arguements. Sam (and a few others) has been putting into words my feelings about Pearl's writings for months. Since he does it a lot more eloquently than I [...] 8833 51 41_Re: Paul Wolfowitz and Other "Court Jews"13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il30_Wed, 5 Nov 2003 22:54:02 +0200131_iso-8859-1 The article by Josh Reubner is originally from Al-Ahram, April 2003.

http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2003/633/op13.htm 8885 80 25_Re: Final reply to Pearl.13_richard smith19_rdsmith1957@msn.com30_Wed, 5 Nov 2003 16:30:37 -0500544_iso-8859-1 Sam wrote: "Trying to humanize a muderer like Goldstein is the last thing we need on Habonet or anywhere else."

Let me begin by saying, like Hank and Noam, I agree with most of what you have to say on these subjects and perhaps my complaint here may border on nitpicking by one does not have to try and 'humanize" Goldstein, because he was, and what he did, was purely human. To dehumanize him, to say he was an animal or crazy or insane or mentally ill may make us feel better about ourselves but would be false. All of [...] 8966 51 41_Re: Paul Wolfowitz and Other "Court Jews"0_13_JLCAA@aol.com28_Wed, 5 Nov 2003 16:47:14 EST238_US-ASCII In a message dated 11/5/2003 3:56:11 PM Eastern Standard Time, jonbaum@sasa.org.il writes:



> > The article by Josh Reubner is originally from Al-Ahram, April 2003. >

The "website doesn't respond." Any ideas? 9018 39 23_10 Days of Hope in L.A.11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org30_Wed, 5 Nov 2003 20:00:46 -0600624_us-ascii Meet Survivors of the Dolphinarium Attack NEXT WEDNESDAY 11-12

Standwithus and Green Dog Film, in cooperation with Jewish Federation of Greater Los Angeles, and the Consul General of Israel of Los Angeles take great pride in extending this invitation to all our friends: For anyone living in the LA area... You are invited to meet young survivors of the Dolphinarium suicide bombing attack who are currently visiting Los Angeles. Come to a Desert Reception on NOVEMBER 12, at Temple Beth Am, 7:30 p.m. Admission is only $18.00 You must RSVP to 310-836-6140, or immediately send your check for 18.00 per [...] 9058 84 17_The Geneva Accord11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org30_Wed, 5 Nov 2003 20:02:59 -0600565_us-ascii The Geneva Accord

The following is the text of the Geneva Accord, obtained exclusively by Haaretz. (Annex X referred to in the document is yet to be completed)

[Preamble] [Relations, implementation and territory] [Security] [Jerusalem] [Refugees] [Roads, religious sites and prisoners]



Draft Permanent Status Agreement

Preamble

The State of Israel (hereinafter "Israel") and the Palestine Liberation Organization (hereinafter "PLO"), the representative of the Palestinian people (hereinafter the "Parties"): [...] 9143 163 11_Re: 2 cents13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Wed, 05 Nov 2003 22:16:51 -0500480_us-ascii Steve,

Are you arguing that what Baruch Goldstein did was a understandable reaction to his situation of feeling threatened by the Arabs in Hevron? This wasn't a justifiable homicide where someone is killed in the act of harming another person because there are no other perceived choices. GOldstein clearly did have other choices to cope with the perceived threat--namely, he could have left Hevron and moved back into Israel or back to the US, like you did. [...] 9307 178 55_from Julia Greenwald, new member (w/address correction)16_Greenwald Family21_greenwfam@charter.net30_Wed, 5 Nov 2003 20:14:48 -0800340_iso-8859-1 Dear Habonetniks: I'm terribly sorry that the letter I originally sent out on Tuesday the 4th has an error in the address to which to send contributions in support of Habonim in Southern California and Camp Gilboa. The correct address if you wish to make a contribution is: HDNA, 22622 Vanowen Street, West Hills CA, 91307. [...] 9486 48 41_Re: Paul Wolfowitz and Other "Court Jews"13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il30_Thu, 6 Nov 2003 07:15:39 +020046_iso-8859-1 Keep trying, it's there.

Jon 9535 151 25_triangle shirtwaiste fire16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Thu, 06 Nov 2003 01:21:01 -0500463_us-ascii I you'll be in Washington DC on November 22nd -- or know others who might. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

You're cordially invited to attend a public discussion of the new book, ''Triangle: The Fire That Changed America," by David Von Drehle, at Washington, DC's Politics & Prose bookstore.

WHEN:

Saturday eve, November 22, 6 p.m.

WHERE:

5015 Connecticut Avenue NW / Washington, DC 20008 [...] 9687 229 38_Ha'aretz/ "Israel is bad for the Jews"11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org30_Thu, 6 Nov 2003 06:00:14 -0600423_us-ascii The Jewish World / `Israel is bad for the Jews'

By Eliahu Salpeter





While Israeli ministers and Jewish activists continue to describe every criticism of Israel - such as a problematic public opinion poll showing that Europeans see the Israeli-Palestinian conflict as the greatest threat to world peace - liberal Jewish circles in the West are facing a different political threat. [...] 9917 78 11_Re: 2 cents0_14_LHIAM1@aol.com28_Thu, 6 Nov 2003 07:14:14 EST600_US-ASCII In a message dated 11/5/2003 10:11:27 PM Eastern Standard Time, gelman@erols.com writes: 1) In Sam's case the cure is to wash the ideology out of the settlers' movement. This is easier said than done but if it succeeded, how long would ideology-less settlers stay? So Sam's argument is an argument for weakening and eventually abandoning the settlements, although maybe not as quickly as he would like 2) In Pearl's case, the cure is to lower the stress on these people who live in such a vulnerable situation. This level of stress is clearly an emergency situation. THe only quick way [...] 9996 55 11_Re: 2 cents14_Kleins Designs26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com30_Thu, 6 Nov 2003 06:11:17 -0800654_iso-8859-1 "Let up" does not mean stop. I only meant to point out to Sam that he was getting shrill.

Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stopak, Noam" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 12:40 PM Subject: RE: 2 cents



> Amen. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ohanka@aol.com [mailto:Ohanka@aol.com] > Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 3:30 PM > To: kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com; habonet@shamash.org > Subject: Re: 2 cents > > ... > > Yes Steve, I think it may just be you. If a person has "just snapped," they > are indeed psychopathic or unstable. If not then they are [...] 10052 30 25_Re: Final reply to Pearl.0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com31_Thu, 06 Nov 2003 10:36:52 -0500518_iso-8859-1 In a message dated 11/5/2003 4:30:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, rdsmith1957@msn.com writes:

> Let me begin by saying, like Hank and Noam, I agree with most of what you have to say on these subjects and perhaps my complaint here may border on nitpicking by one does not have to try and 'humanize" Goldstein, because he was, and what he did, was purely human. To dehumanize him, to say he was an animal or crazy or insane or mentally ill may make us feel better about ourselves but would be false. [...] 10083 28 20_UJC General Assembly12_Nancy Mimoun21_bunkins@optonline.net31_Thu, 06 Nov 2003 11:05:51 -0500299_Windows-1252 Are there many Habonimnikim going to Jerusalem for the GA? Is there any meeting place? I am leaving for Israel on 11/9 with the mission from Stamford, CT, then attending the GA, then tacking onto the P2K mission to our sister area of Afula/Gilboa. I hope to see other Habos there! [...] 10112 54 25_Re: Final reply to Pearl.0_15_Emabear@aol.com28_Thu, 6 Nov 2003 11:13:52 EST470_US-ASCII As there is a generation of suicide bombers growing up as we speak. Always extremists on all sides. I see us "normal ones" as having to follow the straight and narrow, a somewhat middle of the line path that will be there to center the world. I am speakng for myself. I find it easier to operate from the center. Then everyone seems to listen. I also learn better from there. I wonder if what I am saying is "whishy washy" or preachy, I don't mean either. Ellen 10167 30 24_Re: UJC General Assembly14_Holtzer Family20_carmdave@urim.org.il30_Thu, 6 Nov 2003 18:51:50 +0200742_Windows-1252 Dear Nancy,

Hope you manage to fit in a visit to your old "home away from home" in Urim....

08-9920545

Dave Holtzer





------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/

* * FREE JEWISH LEARNING * * Shamash invites you to join MyJewishLearning.com, a comprehensive, objective, authoritative and interactive learning resource in all areas of Judaism. Free membership via http://www.myjewishlearning.com/shamash ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 10198 70 24_Re: UJC General Assembly0_14_KBob24@aol.com28_Thu, 6 Nov 2003 12:51:10 EST596_US-ASCII In a message dated 11/6/2003 11:25:28 AM Eastern Standard Time, bunkins@optonline.net writes: Are there many Habonimnikim going to Jerusalem for the GA? I am sure others are going (I am not) and perhaps even a couple of lurkers on this list. I also believe the current mazkir and central shaliach will be there. A few years ago in Chicago we actually organized a late night hospitality suite-type get together for folks (another fine service of the Habonim Dror Foundation) but nothing has been pulled together this year. I am copying Josh Cohen, mazkir, on this email to see if he [...] 10269 88 41_Re: Paul Wolfowitz and Other "Court Jews"14_Martin Goodman26_martinjgoodman@hotmail.com31_Thu, 06 Nov 2003 20:38:10 +0000340_- Shalom Phil:

Regarding Josh Ruebner's letter to Paul Wolfowitz which appears in Al Ahram, you wrote,

"" Let's find out this self-hating Jew's background, who he voted for and plans to support next year so we can discredit him and dismiss his arguments... ""

I am uncertain if you are being serious or facetious. [...] 10358 129 24_Are you now a professor?8_Avi Bass13_abass@niu.edu31_Thu, 06 Nov 2003 17:19:28 -0600391_windows-1252 Are you now a professor or college/university staff member?

Then you qualify to join HF: Hillel-Faculty, an e-mail discussion group for Jewish professors and college staff -- whose Jewish self-identity and academic interest range across the spectrum -- to talk about issues facing us as Jews on our campuses. HF collects and shares reactions from its 1,350 members. [...] 10488 92 44_Why Are We Focusing On Baruch Goldstein Now?14_Martin Goodman26_martinjgoodman@hotmail.com31_Fri, 07 Nov 2003 03:20:24 +0000452_- The murder by Baruch Goldstein of about 30 Palestinians and the wounding of dozens of others was a heinous crime. Still, what is the purpose of focusing on Baruch Goldstein almost ten years after the Machpelah murders?

A sense of proportion is needed. The overwhelming majority of Palestinian casualties and injuries are inflicted by Tzahal, not by settlers and/or other Jewish civilians. This fact prompts the following basic questions: [...] 10581 72 48_Re: Why Are We Focusing On Baruch Goldstein Now?13_richard smith19_rdsmith1957@msn.com30_Thu, 6 Nov 2003 22:47:13 -0500498_iso-8859-1 Well Marty if you are right that the majority of Israelis do not believe in getting rid of the settlements, and I have no reason to believe you are not, then it is a shame. As an American I certainly hope that our government expresses to the Israelis, in terms they will understand, that the U.S. will not casually sit by and watch while Israelis continue to appropriate Arab lands and renege on agreements they made to dismantle the settlements. If the Israelis want to go their own way 10654 32 12_our donation15_Brian S. Cooper21_brian@cooperspace.net31_Thu, 06 Nov 2003 22:58:33 -0500429_iso-8859-1 Hi All,

I wanted to confirm that our donation to Shamash was received and welcomed. David Rosenthal, D.O. the Shamash Coordinator, wrote me:

"Our business office will shortly be sending you an acknowldegment of this donation. Thanks for supporting Shamash and the work we do. Without contributions such as this one, we would not be able to continue the work we do for the Jewish community on line." [...] 10687 44 25_Re: Final reply to Pearl.11_Lon Ephraim14_cbma@erols.com31_Thu, 06 Nov 2003 22:43:55 -0500535_us-ascii



richard smith wrote:

> Let me begin by saying, like Hank and Noam, I agree with most of what > you have to say on these subjects and perhaps my complaint here may > border on nitpicking by one does not have to try and 'humanize" > Goldstein, because he was, and what he did, was purely human. To > dehumanize him, to say he was an animal or crazy or insane or mentally > ill may make us feel better about ourselves but would be false. All > of these names or diagnoses would take the blame for his [...] 10732 27 12_Attending GA6_meyers23_meyers@netvision.net.il31_Fri, 07 Nov 2003 11:21:50 +0200503_ISO-8859-1 Shalom, I will be at the GA as a journalist. If there is any Habonim event, I'd like to attend. I checked the anti-Semitic Rutgers poster that was sent to Habonet a few days ago. As I suspected, it was a hoax. Nechemia



------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 10760 243 48_Re: Why Are We Focusing On Baruch Goldstein Now?12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Fri, 07 Nov 2003 15:57:51 +0200665_us-ascii Haverot/im,

We are focusing on Baruch Goldstein because along with Yigal Amir, and to differentiate a thousand gradations, Yitzhak Rabin, because they have become symbols. They have become synedoches larger than life - more portentous than death: they are now figures of speech or images that have become broader and more inclusive. They stood for a vision and for the malevolent determination of blotting it out. They epitomize the Judaic equivalents for the opposing concepts of zichrono li-vracha and yima'ach shemo. There are still benighted acolytes of Goldstein and Amir so enveloped in social, intellectual, and moral darkness that they [...] 11004 187 48_Re: Why Are We Focusing On Baruch Goldstein Now?14_Kleins Designs26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com30_Fri, 7 Nov 2003 08:59:59 -0800533_iso-8859-1 Richard

This time it is my turn to agree with you. I guess people that share some heritage are going to find points of agreement, whether they like it or not.

You are right; It is hard for an American to understand a lot of what goes on in Israel. First of all, we are very far away from the action. Try as we might, a lot of the data will never get to us from such a distance. This is hard for me to explain, but the further you are away from something geographically (and emotionally, I suppose), the [...] 11192 45 48_Re: Why Are We Focusing On Baruch Goldstein Now?0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com28_Fri, 7 Nov 2003 12:38:42 EST257_US-ASCII Intelligent people know that the settlements are Israel's undoing. When you talk to most Israelis after a while they will agree with that. They are just so angry at the terror that they get distracted from the settlement problem.



Sam 11238 163 11_A new focus0_14_LHIAM1@aol.com28_Fri, 7 Nov 2003 12:49:00 EST625_US-ASCII Yesterday, Thursday, November 6, 2003, Israel marked the 8th anniversary of the assassination of Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin. Flags were flown at half-mast and memorial ceremonies were held around the country.

I attach:

A letter to Leah Rabin from Bat-Chen Shahak

[Bat-Chen Shahak was 13 years old when she wrote the following poem, shortly after the assassination of Yitzhak Rabin. One year and 4 months later Bat-Chen was killed in a terrorist bombing at Dizengoff Center in Tel Aviv. Some on this list believe that Oslo and our letting down of "our guard" led to her murder. I say that [...] 11402 133 48_Re: Why Are We Focusing On Baruch Goldstein Now?13_moshe sheskin24_moshes7@netvision.net.il55_Fri, 07 Nov 2003 14:52:25 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)567_iso-8859-1 Shalom Sam, I'm really glad that you have the ability to talk with most Israelis. From now on I won't have to refer to the polls,newspapers, television or any other sources of information. From now on I'll just contact Sam at Habonet and he'll gladly tell me what Israelis are thinking at any given moment. Excuse my sarcasm but it seems to me that in addition to your 'know it all' attitude, you see to believe that the settlements are the problem. I gather that you don't live in the settlements nor probably live in Israel. I don't understand your [...] 11536 32 6_Gilboa15_Marilyn Penrose21_marilynp4@hotmail.com31_Fri, 07 Nov 2003 20:24:12 -0500542_- i'm a Gilboa alumni & am deeply saddened to hear that there's no site.Has anyone ever thought of checking out all the beautiful campsites that are around Calif. for Elder Hostel? They've got a great place (with a kosher kitchen) in the Malibu canyon hills. It doesn't make sense to cancel Gilboa out...if i still lived in Calif I'd be on a search committee but since i've become a New Yorker I just visit the left coast. And since i'm actually writing, i want to also say i had the privilege of being able to attend the tribute for my [...] 11569 104 48_Re: Why Are We Focusing On Baruch Goldstein Now?13_richard smith19_rdsmith1957@msn.com30_Sat, 8 Nov 2003 01:00:47 -0500559_iso-8859-1 Steve,

I am unsure if you were joking or not, but I don't see what we agree upon based any of the things you state in your last post. It seems to me you are saying I just don't understand the Israeli position on the occupied territories because I am in America and far away from the situation. While I might agree with Marty Goodman's claim that most Israelis no longer support the dismantlement of the settlements, I know for a fact that a significant minority, at the least, do support their dismantlement and these people are there. [...] 11674 66 48_Re: Why Are We Focusing On Baruch Goldstein Now?13_richard smith19_rdsmith1957@msn.com30_Sat, 8 Nov 2003 01:04:24 -0500243_iso-8859-1 Steve Klein wrote: "We in America are currently far away and comfortable and safe."

I happen to live within two hundred yards of Baltimore City which, I believe, has the second highest murder rate in the U.S., so I don't know 11741 41 69_The Dates of the Rabin Assassination and the Dizengoff Center Bombing14_Martin Goodman26_martinjgoodman@hotmail.com31_Sat, 08 Nov 2003 07:04:36 +0000444_- Shalom Hiam,

In your posting on Habonet, you wrote, "" Bat-Chen Shahak was 13 years old when she wrote the following poem, shortly after the assassination of Yitzhak Rabin. One year and 4 months later Bat-Chen was killed in a terrorist bombing at Dizengoff Center in Tel Aviv. ""

Actually, Prime Minister Rabin was assassinated on 4 November 1995 and the Dizengoff bombing occurred about four months later on 5 March 1996. [...] 11783 79 73_Re: The Dates of the Rabin Assassination and the Dizengoff Center Bombing0_14_LHIAM1@aol.com28_Sat, 8 Nov 2003 09:47:40 EST440_US-ASCII Marty, Math has never been my primary skill... While I thank you from the bottom of my heart for your correction (you will find a virtual red marker for my term paper attached) I would be much more interested in your personal response to content and less to the heading. Does the fact that the poet only lived for 4 more months after writing the poem instead of 16 (I THINK I did the math right this time) change her message? [...] 11863 234 88_Fw: two events in LA: policy forum and Studant Advocacy Conference both on Sunday Nov 1614_Kleins Designs26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com30_Sat, 8 Nov 2003 10:54:24 -0800633_iso-8859-1

----- Original Message ----- From: Nava To: Active4 Israel Sent: Friday, November 07, 2003 4:39 PM Subject: two events in LA: policy forum and Studant Advocacy Conference both on Sunday Nov 16



Friends of Israel Shalom,

These two events should be very interesting, unfortunately they are scheduled for the same date Sunday November 16, 2003. One is a full day Student Advocacy Conference in which students will learn how to defend Israel on college Campuses. The other is a free for all Policy Forum moderated by Michael Medved on the issue of "Liberal Roots and Conservative solutions". [...] 12098 220 48_Fw: Why Are We Focusing On Baruch Goldstein Now?14_Kleins Designs26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com30_Sat, 8 Nov 2003 10:59:20 -0800486_iso-8859-1 Richard



I went over my letter to you again. What part of this sounds like a joke to you?

Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: Kleins Designs To: habonet@shamash.org Sent: Friday, November 07, 2003 8:59 AM Subject: Re: Why Are We Focusing On Baruch Goldstein Now?



Richard

This time it is my turn to agree with you. I guess people that share some heritage are going to find points of agreement, whether they like it or not. [...] 12319 94 18_the real land grab13_pearl skolnik25_pskolnik@netvision.net.il31_Sat, 08 Nov 2003 23:55:06 +0200442_windows-1255 I am amazed that no one refers to the real land grab in the Middle East: that of the Arabs of Israel and Yesha. The Arabs in the Negev have appropriated over 800,000 dunams of Israeli government- (and some private-) owned land and there is no way to get them off the land short of going to the supreme court and that could take many years. As yet, I have not heard that the State is doing anything to rectify the situation. [...] 12414 92 16_re Pearl Skolnik13_moshe sheskin24_moshes7@netvision.net.il55_Sat, 08 Nov 2003 17:13:03 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)161_iso-8859-1 Pearl, Shalom,

I read with great interest your letter re "REAL LAND GRAB'

Please get in touch with me at

Moshes7@netvision.net.il 12507 75 22_Re: the real land grab0_14_Ohanka@aol.com28_Sat, 8 Nov 2003 17:36:36 EST529_US-ASCII

In a message dated 11/8/03 5:02:35 PM, pskolnik@netvision.net.il writes:

<< I am amazed that no one refers to the real land grab in the Middle East: that of the Arabs of Israel and Yesha. The Arabs in the Negev have appropriated over 800,000 dunams of Israeli government- (and some private-) owned land and there is no way to get them off the land short of going to the supreme court and that could take many years. As yet, I have not heard that the State is doing anything to rectify the situation. [...] 12583 69 22_Re: the real land grab13_richard smith19_rdsmith1957@msn.com30_Sat, 8 Nov 2003 18:02:42 -0500169_windows-1255 Pearl wrote: "There is a saying in Hebrew: al t'heyeh tzadik mi-dye. Don't be overly righteous. shavua tov, pearl"



Now I know this is a joke. 12653 69 48_Re: Why Are We Focusing On Baruch Goldstein Now?13_richard smith19_rdsmith1957@msn.com30_Sat, 8 Nov 2003 18:26:56 -0500199_iso-8859-1 Steve wrote: "I went over my letter to you again. What part of this sounds like a joke to you?

Steve"

I thought perhaps it was sarcastic because I don't understand what it is 12723 126 22_Re: the real land grab13_pearl skolnik25_pskolnik@netvision.net.il31_Sun, 09 Nov 2003 08:19:15 +0200589_iso-8859-1 the difference is that the Arabs were not and are not the legal owners of the land. The 1948 ceasefire line were not borders of any country. Ceasefire lines are temporary and are not considered legal borders in international law. Judea and Samaria were conquered by Jordan and their annexation of that area was recognized only by Great Britain and Pakistan and by NO other country. That area legally was part of the Balfour Declaration, and legally we have claim to that area. We also have international law legal claims in that the land was reconquered in a defensive war [...] 12850 41 22_Two Events In Tel Aviv14_Martin Goodman26_martinjgoodman@hotmail.com31_Sun, 09 Nov 2003 07:44:55 +0000383_- Shalom Hiam:

The reason that I remember the dates of the Rabin assassination and the Dizengoff bombing is because in 1995-96, I lived in Tel Aviv, just a short distance from the sites of these events. Less than three months after the Dizengoff bombing, Bibi Netanyahu narrowly defeated Shimon Peres in the Prime Ministerial election and formed a LIKUD-lead government. [...] 12892 118 17_Arafat's Finances14_Martin Goodman26_martinjgoodman@hotmail.com31_Sun, 09 Nov 2003 08:34:31 +0000679_- A while ago, Pearl wrote about the money that Arafat has diverted from P.A. coffers into his own personal bank account. The following Ha'Aretz article provides additional information on the subject.

Marty Goodman





BBC reports PA paying off members of Al-Aqsa Brigades By Natan Guttman, Haaretz Correspondent, and Limor Tevet

WASHINGTON - The Palestinian Authority is transferring up to $50,000 a month to members of the Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, a militant offshoot of Fatah, according to a report to be published Sunday by the British Broadcasting Corporation. A minister in the previous PA government headed by Mahmoud Abbas told the [...] 13011 106 23_60 Minutes Sunday 11/0911_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org30_Sun, 9 Nov 2003 07:14:33 -0600462_ISO-8859-1

Arafat treats) public resources as his personal ATM machine to be looted at will



Yasser Arafat 'has £1.8bn fortune' By William Tinning The Herald, November 7, 2003







A TELEVISION documentary is to claim that Yasser Arafat, the Palestinian president, has amassed a personal fortune of up to £1.8bn and his wife is given tens of thousands of pounds each week to fund a lavish lifestyle in Paris. [...] 13118 189 22_Re: the real land grab13_richard smith19_rdsmith1957@msn.com30_Sun, 9 Nov 2003 09:59:04 -0500595_iso-8859-1 Pearl wrote:

the difference is that the Arabs were not and are not the legal owners of the land. The 1948 ceasefire line were not borders of any country. Ceasefire lines are temporary and are not considered legal borders in international law. Judea and Samaria were conquered by Jordan and their annexation of that area was recognized only by Great Britain and Pakistan and by NO other country. That area legally was part of the Balfour Declaration, and legally we have claim to that area. We also have international law legal claims in that the land was reconquered in a [...] 13308 264 22_Re: the real land grab14_Kleins Designs26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com30_Sun, 9 Nov 2003 07:16:01 -0800561_iso-8859-1 Richard, Richard, Richard

Everyone knows the West Bank belonged to the Arabs? Where in the world would anyone come up with a statement like that? I don't know that, so how is that everyone? In addition to me, there are probably others. Maybe many others.

Of the 22 major and minor civilizations that laid claim to that rock-strewn, postage-stamp sized pice of ground, every one of them took it by force, and kept it by force. This is not a pretty fact. It is just a fact. "Legality" had nothing to do with it, so you are one up on [...] 13573 68 13_2 cents plain0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com28_Sun, 9 Nov 2003 16:02:31 EST517_US-ASCII I never got read Steve's 2 cents posting. I started to read it and compose a reply to him and it disappeared. I do hope that what I replied to him doesn't wind up on Habonet because I was angry and said things I might regret. Steve was on My workshop and he is a friend. I must say that I am of two minds about having started this whole argument about Baruch Goldstein and Pearl and Yigal Amir. Many on Habonet, see Pearl as a victim of circumstance. She is a good but misguided person and they take my [...] 13642 220 68_Wonderful list of resources for campus-ites and the rest of us,too!!11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org30_Sun, 9 Nov 2003 16:43:44 -0600981_ISO-8859-1

>Status: U >From: Isralert@aol.com >Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2003 12:46:40 EST >Subject: Campus links >To: undisclosed-recipients:; > >NOT YET A SUBSCRIBER TO THE FASTEST GROWING >NETWORK OF ISRAEL'S ADVOCATES? Email to >ISRALERT@AOL.COM. type 'subscribe' in subject >box and identify who sent you this Isralert. > >Isralert's source for this item: Israel Campus >Beat >info@israeloncampuscoalition.org > >B"H > >LINKS FROM ISRAEL CAMPUS BEAT > >Educational > >· Arab-Israel Conflict in Maps >· bitterlemons.org >· >Facts >About Israel (Ministry of Foreign Affairs) >· Historical >Documents, Treaties and Agreements >· Intelligence >and Terrorism Information Center at the Center >for Special Studies >· International [...] 13863 231 58_From Friday's Ha'aretz: re Baruch Goldstein and Yigal Amir0_13_JLCAA@aol.com28_Sun, 9 Nov 2003 19:11:04 EST413_US-ASCII The distortion of Rabin's murder

Eight years after Yigal Amir murdered Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin during a peace rally in Tel Aviv's Malchei Yisrael Square, it is evident that the murder did not create a common Israeli ethos, as one might have hoped. Various sectors of the public have formed different opinions regarding the murder and its place in the history of the country and society. [...] 14095 76 22_Re: the real land grab13_richard smith19_rdsmith1957@msn.com30_Sun, 9 Nov 2003 19:10:17 -0500469_iso-8859-1 Steve wrote: Everyone knows the West Bank belonged to the Arabs? Where in the world would anyone come up with a statement like that? I don't know that, so how is that everyone? In addition to me, there are probably others. Maybe many others.

You are right, of course, Steve and please accept my apologies. I did not qualify my statement for which I stand abashed in the corner. I should have said, "Everyone who is honest to themselves, knows the West 14172 111 22_RE: the real land grab12_Stopak, Noam20_NStopak@orionsci.com30_Sun, 9 Nov 2003 21:13:40 -0500304_- Steve, Steve, Steve. Just the other day you had to apologize for claiming, without any basis, to speak for "the great bulk" of people on this list. Now you excoriate Richard for making a similar mistake. Then you go on to claim to speak for others again. How are we to "buy your delusional crap"? [...] 14284 215 22_Re: the real land grab13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Sun, 09 Nov 2003 23:42:03 -0500603_windows-1255 Dear Pearl,

I am so disturbed to read your email because it gives such a one sided version of the unauthorized development in the Negev and Galilee by Arab Israelis.

As you well know, it is quite nearly impossible for Arab Israelis to get building permits at all for 1) economic reasons--the permitting system is not well suited to the type of save, building, save, build process by which the Arab families normally use to construct their homes (and which is used in similar societies all over the world) and 2) because there are master plans governing almost every inch [...] 14500 104 22_Re: the real land grab14_Kleins Designs26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com30_Sun, 9 Nov 2003 23:14:00 -0800421_iso-8859-1 No ----- Original Message ----- From: richard smith To: habonet@shamash.org Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2003 4:10 PM Subject: Re: the real land grab



Steve wrote: Everyone knows the West Bank belonged to the Arabs? Where in the world would anyone come up with a statement like that? I don't know that, so how is that everyone? In addition to me, there are probably others. Maybe many others. [...] 14605 158 64_We Need New Dancers for Habonim-Dror to Rock the Dance Festival!0_13_SC523@aol.com29_Mon, 10 Nov 2003 03:14:39 EST490_US-ASCII Dear Habonim-dror alumni who have fond memories of Israeli dancing,

We need Habonim-Dror dancers of all ages - if you have ever enjoyed Israeli

dance and you live within 1-1/2 hours of New York City, please read on:

Three years ago, Habonim-Dror put together a maapilim ensemble and re-entered

the Israeli Dance Festival after a 15 year absence. It was the 50th year of the Dance Festival, coinciding with the 50th year of Habonim Workshop. It had [...] 14764 1982 43_Health alert for babies fed Remedia formula13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Mon, 10 Nov 2003 07:20:23 -0500 16747 56 29_Judy Gelman and the Land Grab0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com29_Mon, 10 Nov 2003 08:15:10 EST497_US-ASCII I want to thank Judy Gelman for the her wonderful posting about the "Land Grab."

Her insights seem to come not only from deep personal convictions but detailed knowlege. It is wonderful to find postings on Habonet from people who not only care, but take the time and invest the effort to really know what they are talking about. That posting was one of the few that was so compelling that ought to published. Funny that it should come as part of a routine Habonet discussion. [...] 16804 80 33_Re: Judy Gelman and the Land Grab13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Mon, 10 Nov 2003 13:16:13 -0500553_us-ascii I am blushing. Toda raba, Sam. Judy

Smfgrappa@aol.com wrote:

> I want to thank Judy Gelman for the her wonderful posting about the > "Land Grab." > > Her insights seem to come not only from deep personal convictions but > detailed knowlege. It is wonderful to find postings on Habonet from > people who not only care, but take the time and invest the effort to > really know what they are talking about. That posting was one of the > few that was so compelling that ought to published. Funny that it > should come as part of [...] 16885 85 8_responds5_marks25_molieric@netvision.net.il31_Mon, 10 Nov 2003 21:29:37 +0200501_windows-1255



Dear HDF Chat Group,



I'd like to put in my 2 cents by saying how happy I am about the HDF and habonet chat site. The HDF gave me valuable information when I needed it for my Workshop group (the 2nd) when it was planning it's 50th reunion, a year ago. And through it's offices I became acquainted with James (who was living in Israel at that time). We invited him to our reunion to give us a talk on Habonim - Present Tense, which we enjoyed very much. [...] 16971 32 25_Thai Workers In Kibbutzim14_Martin Goodman26_martinjgoodman@hotmail.com31_Mon, 10 Nov 2003 19:51:36 +0000393_- According to an article in today's Ma'ariv newspaper (http://images.maariv.co.il/channels/1/ART/582/194.html), Thai agricultural workers at Kibbutz Ein Zivun in the north of the Golan Heights captured a Syrian citizen today who had infiltrated across the border from Syria.

Does anyone know how extensive use of Thai (other foreign) workers is on Kibbutzim?

Marty Goodman [...] 17004 253 57_=?iso-8859-1?B?5PLh+OQ6IE5ldyBEYXJrIEFnZXMgaW4gTG9uZG9u?=5_marks25_molieric@netvision.net.il31_Mon, 10 Nov 2003 23:20:15 +0200334_iso-8859-1 Hi All,

I'm sending you all the following material for I think that it ties in with you "pride and prejudices" surrounding the politicle problem that we Israelis have with people who are quick to judge about our situation in a "heartfelt" rather than in an intellegent and knowledgeable way.

Mollie Marx [...] 17258 121 17_Re: 2 cents plain13_pearl skolnik25_pskolnik@netvision.net.il31_Mon, 10 Nov 2003 23:53:02 +0200555_iso-8859-1 sam, I don't quite understand why you placed me between Dr. Goldstein and Yigal Amir in your letter, but so be it. I am also afraid for the future of Israel and the Jewish People, so we are on the same side of the fence. We have of what to be afraid. Disunity and quarrelsomeness, intolerance, lack of appreciation for the other, disrespect for our culture and religion which have sustained us til now coupled with a mad rush to be "like all the other peoples" ---- are real dangers facing Jews today. Let's put down the hatchets and call [...] 17380 199 22_Re: the real land grab13_pearl skolnik25_pskolnik@netvision.net.il31_Tue, 11 Nov 2003 00:12:02 +0200574_windows-1255 judy, whereas there are indeed difficulties in getting building permits the fault does not lie only with the government. The local Arab councils are also at fault. Yet, we still read in announcements by the Minhal (Israel Lands Authority) of tenders being issued for Arab villages to build on land authorized by the Authority. Just check any newspaper on a regular basis and you will see government land being given over in an organized fashion to Arabs and Beduin. Arabs are also free to buy land -- they do not have to steal it. There is such a thing as [...] 17580 67 12_Re: responds0_14_KBob24@aol.com29_Mon, 10 Nov 2003 18:22:53 EST414_US-ASCII In a message dated 11/10/2003 6:07:13 PM Eastern Standard Time, molieric@netvision.net.il writes: For this I want to say to the orgainizers of these two groups ---- THANK YOU foryou have provide a wonderful service to Habonim alumni from all walks of life. Mollie:

I am glad you feel the Foundation is being of service. It is good to receive feedback, and even better when it is positive :-). [...] 17648 149 22_Re: the real land grab13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Mon, 10 Nov 2003 18:38:40 -0500572_windows-1255 Dear Pearl,

I live in a city where we give roads, running water, mail service and trash collection to people whether they pay taxes or not. Many of those who don't pay are very poor but some (about 20,000) are diplomats. Washington, DC is no paragon of virtue in its treatment of the poor but we don't stop paving and repairing roads in the Southeast sector of the city because the residents mostly don't pay taxes. This city has a lot of very serious problems. but we are civilized enough to recognize that government has a duty to provide basic [...] 17798 49 22_Re: The Real Land Grab14_Martin Goodman26_martinjgoodman@hotmail.com31_Tue, 11 Nov 2003 06:39:49 +0000654_- Shalom Judy,

In the recent thread regarding "The Real Land Grab", you described the deplorable infrastructure conditions in Arab-Israeli villages and cities. Similar conditions also exist in Jewish communities such as Dimona, Ofakim, Sderot, Rahat, etc. Former P.M. Barak and many others blame conditions in these development towns on deliberate neglect by unsympathetic politicians dating back to Ben Gurion while others believe that these and other development towns just fell through the cracks. Either way, the neglect and abandonment suffered by Arab Israeli communities is not substantially different than in some Jewish communities. [...] 17848 185 22_Re: The Real Land Grab13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Tue, 11 Nov 2003 07:40:44 -0500629_ISO-8859-15 Dear Marty,

With all due respect, you are not talking about the same problem I am.

I have been to the slums of Dimona and Ofakim. The development towns are awful. The problems include transgenerational poverty, the social and family problems that come from prolonged poverty, and extremely substandard construction to start with. You are right that people haphazardly add to their homes in often dangerous ways. None of us would want to live there. The development towns have sections that are structurally much worse that anything I know of in DC, which has plenty of extremely poor sections with [...] 18034 134 22_Re: The Real Land Grab12_Jessica Bonn21_jessicab@bezeqint.net31_Tue, 11 Nov 2003 22:52:21 +0200658_windows-1255 The following is from the B'tselem website (www.btselem.org) : Planning and Building in the Occupied Territories



Over the past three decades of occupation, Israel has employed in the West Bank a policy of planning, development, and building that severely restricts construction by Palestinians, while allocating broad expanses of land to establish and expand Jewish settlements. In this way, Israel has created a situation in which thousands of Palestinians are unable to obtain permits to build on their land, and are compelled to build without a permit because they have no other way to provide shelter for their families. [...] 18169 99 21_Land Grab Controversy6_meyers23_meyers@netvision.net.il31_Wed, 12 Nov 2003 11:04:55 +0200142_ISO-8859-1 Shalom Chevre, I think my recent column (attached) might be of interest in view of the Habonet land grab discussion.Nechemia Meyers 18269 189 53_Ha'aretz/ Does Israel hve the right to exist? Do Jew?11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org31_Wed, 12 Nov 2003 10:02:12 -0600420_ISO-8859-1

Background/ Does Israel have right to exist? Do Jews? By Bradley Burston, Haaretz Correspondent

Of late, the Sharon government has been accused of working to prevent a two-state solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. But if recent polls are an indication, substantial numbers of Europeans may have a different one-state solution in mind: the end of the independent state of Israel. [...] 18459 292 42_Fw: two true stories that throw light.....13_pearl skolnik25_pskolnik@netvision.net.il31_Wed, 12 Nov 2003 20:25:25 +0200637_iso-8859-1 I feel I must forward this letter to the list because it addresses "accusations" and "assumptions," published in this list, which should be clarified publicly and not just privately. pps



sam I do not blame Peres, Beilin and Rabin for the Intifada: practically the WHOLE country understands that Oslo was a tragedy for this country. That Beilin worked behind the scenes at Peres' beckoning and without Rabin knowing exactly what was going on. The fact that that government let Arafat into the country with his henchman and gave them some 40,000 automatic weapons because they thought Arafat would fight the [...] 18752 31 46_For the Deadheads among us: Dead on 60 minutes0_25_batel_libes@earthlink.net31_Wed, 12 Nov 2003 10:59:03 -0800511_us-ascii

Subject: Dead on 60 minutes





Heads up. You probably know this but just in case you forgot.. Dead on 60min 2 - Wed night 11/12. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/11/11/60II/main582848.shtml





------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 18784 196 22_Re: The Real Land Grab14_Kleins Designs26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Wed, 12 Nov 2003 11:06:25 -0800615_windows-1255 To both Judy and Jessie

I am sure that in a perfect world, with no limitations on resources and funding, we could provide sewage, electricity, unlimited medical access of the finest type, adequate-to-gorgeous housing, unemployment benefits and old-age pensions to all the needy, not only the Jews and Arabs of Israel and Palestine, but to all the non-Israeli Arab villages that have no services, and to all the remote African villages that have no services, and to all the remote Chinese villages that have no services. That would only be a start! I think that Israel and the Jewish people [...] 18981 273 20_sewage and libraries13_pearl skolnik25_pskolnik@netvision.net.il31_Wed, 12 Nov 2003 22:44:49 +0200552_windows-1255 Judy, in response: True, there are villages in Israel without a sewage system -- even in my moshav Kerem Maharal we were dependent on a "bor" in our back yard. All moshavim have the same problem.

But, Alabama, New York? no sidewalks. no sewage system no garbage collection -- we hawled away our own garbage to a collection point miles away. no library no lights on road (I am still afraid of the dark because of that) no gas station (we had our own private tank) no bus service, no taxis, no nothing no parks no bank (it is in [...] 19255 231 47_RE: The Real Land Grab - reading comprehension?12_Stopak, Noam20_NStopak@orionsci.com31_Wed, 12 Nov 2003 16:01:28 -0500460_- Hey Steve,

Jessica indicated she was in Jerusalem and quoted text from and Israeli organization. The issue was services for Israeli citizens. Or hadn't you noticed. But why let facts get in the way of a good rant.

Keep up the good work,

Noam

-----Original Message----- From: Kleins Designs [mailto:kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2003 2:06 PM To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: Re: The Real Land Grab [...] 19487 265 22_Re: The Real Land Grab12_Jessica Bonn21_jessicab@bezeqint.net31_Wed, 12 Nov 2003 23:00:57 +0200618_windows-1255 Steve, whoever you are, why so hostile? Because I said 'wake up?' I apologize if this came across as arrogance. Ani v'at chaverim bHabonim, remember? Kol Yisrael arevim zeh lazeh. And elu v'elu divrei h' hayim. Here's my last input on this tiresome subject. Our obligation to conduct a proper democracy in Israel with equal rights for all citizens (Palestinians aside) is on the moral plane, entirely independent of the question of world opinion about Israel, and from a utilitarian standpoint, may in fact be necessary for our survival (i.e. the ticking bomb - the alienated, large Arab minority in [...] 19753 72 47_Re: The Real Land Grab - reading comprehension?13_richard smith19_rdsmith1957@msn.com31_Wed, 12 Nov 2003 16:50:15 -0500351_iso-8859-1 Steve wrote: "Besides, if you think even that will get us the approval we so desperately need from the world forum, think again. It is that very attribute that makes us so perennially and eternally hated."

Well I guess we should take your example and have the Jews and the rest of the world hate us "perennially and eternally." [...] 19826 61 50_Re: For the Deadheads among us: Dead on 60 minutes0_14_KBob24@aol.com29_Wed, 12 Nov 2003 20:54:32 EST348_US-ASCII In a message dated 11/12/03 2:00:17 PM Eastern Standard Time, batel_libes@earthlink.net writes: Heads up. You probably know this but just in case you forgot.. Dead on 60min 2 - Wed night 11/12. Thanks Batel - just read your post, jumped up and watched the item on the Dead. Nice, if bittersweet when it comes to thinking about Jerry. [...] 19888 56 50_Re: For the Deadheads among us: Dead on 60 minutes0_15_DebALev@aol.com29_Wed, 12 Nov 2003 21:17:24 EST345_US-ASCII Thanks from me too, Batel........a great little segment. And Ken yes....very bittersweet about Jerry. I'm sure those of us who have known and loved addicts can relate. Sigh.

One of my favorite albums is "Deadicated," covers of Dead hits. The Indigo Girls did Uncle John's Band, and it really resonates with this old hippie. [...] 19945 272 50_RE: For the Deadheads among us: Dead on 60 minutes0_25_batel_libes@earthlink.net31_Wed, 12 Nov 2003 18:28:36 -0800542_US-ASCII It's still early here on the West Coast, so I haven't seen the show yet.

And, while we are on the subject, I have adopted a G.D. saying: "We are everywhere," to Habonim. I just learned that a friend I have known for 14 years has a Habonim background. His father was in Habonim in Argentina, made Aliya through the movement and than went back as a Shaliach. And though he knew that Miya goes to a movement camp, etc., he didn't put the two together till he saw the current version of Chadashot on my living room table. We [...] 20218 103 50_Re: For the Deadheads among us: Dead on 60 minutes0_13_Mmxmm@aol.com29_Wed, 12 Nov 2003 22:30:42 EST525_US-ASCII Ok...my 2 cents. Was invited to a party a the Fillmore last night in SF to celebrate the release of the concert dvd of the closing of the Winterland Ballroom, NY Eve 1978 with a 5 plus hr concert by the Dead. The concert DVD was shown in full and a sweet little dance party ensued the Fillmore dance floor with room to move. Lotsa of the Dead Family were there including Jerry's ex - MG [AKA Mountain Girl] and one of his daughters, Trixie, as well as Bill Grahams 2 sons. Was a poignant & joyful eve for sure. [...] 20322 63 50_Re: For the Deadheads among us: Dead on 60 minutes14_Holtzer Family20_carmdave@urim.org.il31_Thu, 13 Nov 2003 06:06:29 +0200194_iso-8859-1 Thank the Dead that the subject was changed!!! I was getting sick and tired of reading politics and my delete button finger was getting tired, too!

Dave





20386 90 50_FYI: Shamash upgrade to ListServ is "in the works"15_Brian S. Cooper21_brian@cooperspace.net31_Thu, 13 Nov 2003 08:32:40 -0500599_iso-8859-1 Hi All,

I am forwarding excerpts from this very encoruaging -- and appreciative -- message from the amazing good folks at Shamash, sent yesterday to all the Shamash list Moms:

--Brian

----- Original Message ----- > Shamash List owners- > > 1. I am pleased to tell you that the much discussed upgrade of Shamash is > in progress. We have obtained our new server with lots more processing > power, memory, and hard drive space, and we are in the process of moving > over content to the new system. We are working with the professionals at > http://www.atypica.com [...] 20477 28 29_Waiting for the Robert E. Lee12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Thu, 13 Nov 2003 16:38:55 +0200365_us-ascii >Arafat was sitting in the front seat of the car on the passenger seat and his head was touching the ceiling/roof of the car, as did the driver's head. On closer inspection they discovered that Arafat's close comrade who was refused entry to Israel on the master list was lying across the car seat under the driver and Arafat who were sitting on him! [...] 20506 266 63_Lord, We Don't Need Another Mountain _ was "The Real Land Grab"12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Thu, 13 Nov 2003 18:23:06 +0200625_us-ascii Haverim/ot Yitzhak Rabin had an awful singing voice. Yet the most memorable rendition "Shir la-Shalom" ever got was when he sang it with Miri Aloni, moments before he was assassinated at the end of a massive peace demonstration. Miri was the soloist of he Nahal entertainment group who sang it twenty five years earlier at its premiere performance. Army entertainment groups (lehakot) are among the prominent purveyors of Israeli culture. In 1970 when the Nahal troupe introduced its twenty second program along with the lead electric guitar was Danny Sandereson who went on to compose and arrange a beehive of [...] 20773 148 9_Land Grab13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Thu, 13 Nov 2003 12:35:41 -0500610_ISO-8859-15 Dear Pearl,

Let me recap: You claimed that the real land grab are Arabs who are stealing land in the Gaililee and Negev, not the settlers in the territories. I wrote about the unrecognized villages that are unrecognized to delegitimize their claim to the land and this is a shameful land grab. Marty wrote that conditions are bad in development towns I agreed but distinguished those conditions from those in unrecognized villages Nechama sent her article about a Bedouin man who lives in a formerly unrecognized village in the Negev which confirmed much of what I had been saying. You [...] 20922 153 24_Mahathir and Easterbrook13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il31_Thu, 13 Nov 2003 21:30:49 +0200460_windows-1255 JEWS YOU CAN USE

Mark Steyn

Picture Dr Mahathir Mohammed and Gregg Easterbrook up against deadline on opposite sides of the world. Dr Mahathir is the retiring Prime Minister of Malaysia and had to give a keynote address to the Organization of the Islamic Conference. Mr Easterbrook writes for America’s New Republic magazine and had to come up with something that hadn’t yet been said about Quentin Tarantino’s film Kill Bill . [...] 21076 39 12_OUR BIG TENT14_Martin Goodman26_martinjgoodman@hotmail.com31_Thu, 13 Nov 2003 19:41:22 +0000295_- Shalom Richard,

In your posting to Jessica, you wrote, "" ... get used to the hostility when ever you dare to disagree with RABBI Steve "". I am not sure if you meant it, but this statement seems to associate hostility with Rabbis in particular and with religious Jews in general. [...] 21116 55 16_Re: OUR BIG TENT13_richard smith19_rdsmith1957@msn.com31_Thu, 13 Nov 2003 15:01:50 -050079_iso-8859-1 I meant to imply that your beliefs are extremely strongly held, like 21172 242 28_Re: Land Grab answer to judy13_pearl skolnik25_pskolnik@netvision.net.il31_Thu, 13 Nov 2003 23:01:02 +0200560_ISO-8859-15 judy, 1. you say the arabs lived on the lands for generations, and that is NOT so. If they had been there from the beginning their villages would have been recognized. The problem is that they went and settled on land to which they had NO title: they did not own the land on which they settled. The Jews in Yesha, on the other hand, are settled on land they bought from Arabs or on government owned land: it is not land with title to anyone other than the Israeli government which inherited ownership from the Jordanian government. Israel has [...] 21415 54 18_Marc Steyn article14_Kleins Designs26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Thu, 13 Nov 2003 13:33:26 -0800126_iso-8859-1 Jonathon

Thank you for the Marc Steyn article. It was an absolute brilliant piece and a joy to read.

21470 463 67_Re: Lord, We Don't Need Another Mountain _ was "The Real Land Grab"13_pearl skolnik25_pskolnik@netvision.net.il31_Thu, 13 Nov 2003 23:37:47 +0200551_iso-8859-1 Har Choma was NOT expropriated from sur bacher: it was bought by a Jew from the Arabs, and part of the land was already owned by Jews. The man hired a staff of architects to plan the development of his privately owned mountain (the trees were planted by Israel not by the Arabs), and then the Israeli government expropriated the land from this man and a small extra portion owned by Jews and Arabs, as well. The man, whose name escapes me now, was so angered that his investment was taken away from him, he threatened to hand over his [...] 21934 107 22_Re: The Real Land Grab0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Thu, 13 Nov 2003 16:46:42 EST445_US-ASCII Martin,

Israel's policies are all (from my semi-open-minded point of view) intended to encourage a finalized peace between the Arabs and the Jews. the longer the Arabs wait the more the facts on the ground favor Israel with respect to inroads into the West Bank. While these policies are no doubt supported by and encouraging to the annexniks, they should also be ecouraging to the Arabs to get on with settling on a peace. [...] 22042 38 13_Re: Land Grab0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Thu, 13 Nov 2003 17:09:50 EST54_US-ASCII Dear Judy, Please see my last posting. Dennis 22081 134 37_For Arab Democracy/ The Baltimore Son11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org31_Thu, 13 Nov 2003 16:16:15 -0600489_ISO-8859-1

For Arab democracy

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

By Robert O. Freedman and Mohamed E. Hamdi Originally published November 12, 2003



ESTABLISHING A genuine democracy in the Middle East is essentially the responsibility of the Arab masses and Arab elites. But in the age of the global village, the West can and ought to help and support the drive for democracy in that part of the world. [...] 22216 97 28_Re: Land Grab answer to judy13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Thu, 13 Nov 2003 18:51:11 -0500401_ISO-8859-15 Dear Pearl,

What I was telling you with my reply is that none of y our facts and arguments are relevant, but I will answer your questions one last time:

An indigenous people's movement just overthrew the government in one Latin American country and may overthrow another soon. That's what happens when the oppressed underclass grows in numbers and realizes their power. [...] 22314 23 33_Re: Waiting for the Robert E. Lee0_18_Rachelbern@aol.com31_Thu, 13 Nov 2003 18:58:21 -0500667_iso-8859-1 <>

and the Levy was dry?

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/

* * FREE JEWISH LEARNING * * Shamash invites you to join MyJewishLearning.com, a comprehensive, objective, authoritative and interactive learning resource in all areas of Judaism. Free membership via http://www.myjewishlearning.com/shamash ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 22338 333 22_Re: The Real Land Grab14_Kleins Designs26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Thu, 13 Nov 2003 16:03:49 -0800542_windows-1255 Jessica

You asked "Why so hostile?' That deserves an answer. (By the way, I am not as bad a person as some make me out to be).

The hostility: I boiled over. And I'm sorry. It seemed to me that the whole world was having a criticism-fest at the expense of Israel and the Jews trying to live their, under terrible conditions that are getting even worse. The criticism cup seemed just about full. It didn't make sense to heap on more at this time, or to suggest recruiting more. To what objective? ( rhetorical). [...] 22672 77 25_A little grammatical help14_Kleins Designs26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Thu, 13 Nov 2003 16:15:49 -0800357_iso-8859-1 As a sometimes-English teacher, there are grammatical slip-ups that appear often in our exchanges. And yes, I know that fewer and fewer people care, but this may be helpful to someone that does still care.

One goof that catches my eye constantly is the uncertainty about the use of apostrophes when using the words " its" and "it's". [...] 22750 68 29_Re: A little grammatical help19_Orit Lowy Chicherio16_oritil@yahoo.com37_Thu, 13 Nov 2003 16:40:22 -0800 (PST)357_us-ascii Finally a topic I feel competent to comment on...

FYI, also NBD: Quotation marks should always be place outside of periods and commas, inside colons and semicolons, and inside or outside question marks and exclamation points (depending on whether they are part of the quote).

You never know when this tidbit might come in handy. [...] 22819 26 15_Re: Dead on CBS0_15_RONOREN@aol.com31_Thu, 13 Nov 2003 19:54:45 -0500390_iso-8859-1 Okay, so those of us who get the Habonet Digest AND are on the West Coast AND usually open the mail the next day, MISSED IT! Sounds like a good synopsis of what occurred around Jer's death. Any tapers tape it out there?

And Marc-good luck with the benefit. I went to many SEVA benefit/Dead shows in the Eighties. I'll bet more than a few Habonetters did. Good cause. [...] 22846 32 33_RE: Waiting for the Robert E. Lee12_Stopak, Noam20_NStopak@orionsci.com31_Thu, 13 Nov 2003 19:35:08 -0500625_-

Are you telling me he was driving a Chevy? Who gave Chase?

-----Original Message----- From: Rachelbern@aol.com [mailto:Rachelbern@aol.com] Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2003 6:58 PM To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: Re: Waiting for the Robert E. Lee



<>

and the Levy was dry?

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 22879 48 22_Re: Marc Steyn article13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il31_Fri, 14 Nov 2003 08:15:46 +020052_iso-8859-1 No problem. Glad you liked it.

Jon 22928 568 29_Fw: AP Omits Terror in Israel14_Kleins Designs26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Thu, 13 Nov 2003 22:59:27 -0800331_iso-8859-1 Just passing this along.

Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: Marcia Plager To: Avravraham and Malka Czyzyk ; Eileen Kelmanson ; Bob and Barbara Fruitman ; Barry Szemere ; Carol Nalin ; Geoff and Linda Remes ; Arvin Tunick Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2003 9:49 PM Subject: Fw: AP Omits Terror in Israel [...] 23497 111 137_=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20Lord,=20We=20Don't=20Need=20Another=20Mount?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?ain=20=5F=A0=20was=A0=20"The=20Real=20Land=A0=20Grab"?=0_13_SC523@aol.com29_Fri, 14 Nov 2003 02:32:03 EST546_US-ASCII For those of us who knew or know Moraleh Bar-On, we know that he shared/shares our Habonim-Dror politics, so of course he thought Shir Lashalom was a most proper anthem.But there were many lurking at the time ready to pounce on songs with lyrics as these.

As a performer in those days when Shir Lashalom was pulled from the radio I can tell you that, for those of us who were doing a big performance in Tel Aviv the day we got the news, it was very demoralizing. No such thing as free speech in Israel if the song criticizes [...] 23609 39 10_Har Chomah14_Martin Goodman26_martinjgoodman@hotmail.com31_Fri, 14 Nov 2003 07:48:00 +0000521_- Shalom Amnon:

In your posting entitled "" Lord, We Don't Need Another Mountain "", you discuss:

a) Rabin's embracing of the peace movement; and b) The rationale of why the Har Chomah settlement is antithetical to the goals of the peace movement.

Actually, Har Chomah was an initiative of the Rabin government that was in the advanced planning stages by November 1995. Apparently, Rabin did not regard development at Har Chomah to be inconsistent with a negotiated peace with the Palestinians. [...] 23649 65 22_Re: The Real Land Grab14_Martin Goodman26_martinjgoodman@hotmail.com31_Fri, 14 Nov 2003 08:12:59 +0000662_- Shalom Dennis:

You are preaching to the choir. Perhaps you have confused me with someone else on Habonet?

Marty Goodman __________________________________________________________

ORIGINAL POSTING

Martin,

Israel's policies are all (from my semi-open-minded point of view) intended to encourage a finalized peace between the Arabs and the Jews. the longer the Arabs wait the more the facts on the ground favor Israel with respect to inroads into the West Bank. While these policies are no doubt supported by and encouraging to the annexniks, they should also be ecouraging to the Arabs to get on with settling on a peace. [...] 23715 57 14_Re: Har Chomah12_Jessica Bonn21_jessicab@bezeqint.net31_Fri, 14 Nov 2003 12:47:37 +0200455_windows-1255 Not relevant - building in WBank continued and even increased by some measures during Oslo. And it wasn't an obstacle to peace b/c it had the stamp of the R. gov? Consisitency is not the strong point of human beings and not characteristic of complex situations - jessie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Martin Goodman" To: Sent: Friday, November 14, 2003 9:48 AM Subject: Har Chomah [...] 23773 52 10_Miri Aloni12_Doug Greener25_ddwgreen@netvision.net.il31_Fri, 14 Nov 2003 14:31:09 +0200290_iso-8859-1 A postscript:

Miri Aloni went to court to try to prove that only she could perform Shir LaShalom at memorials to Rabin, since it was "her" song. She lost. A short time later she was sighted performing for passersby at Dizengoff Center, impoverished and ill...

Trudy 23826 61 14_Re: Miri Aloni0_13_SC523@aol.com29_Fri, 14 Nov 2003 12:33:23 EST403_US-ASCII In a message dated 11/14/2003 9:06:30 AM Eastern Standard Time, ddwgreen@netvision.net.il writes:

> A postscript: > > Miri Aloni went to court to try to prove that only she could perform Shir > LaShalom at memorials to Rabin, since it was "her" song. She lost. A short > time later she was sighted performing for passersby at Dizengoff Center, > impoverished and ill... > > Trudy > [...] 23888 283 15_Shin Bet Chiefs0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com29_Fri, 14 Nov 2003 13:21:17 EST355_US-ASCII Ex-Shin Bet heads warn of 'catastrophe' without peace deal

By Haaretz Service and Agencies

In unusually brazen criticism of the government's handling of the conflict with the Palestinians, four former heads of the Shin Bet security service warned Friday of a "catastrophe" if a peace deal is not reached with the Palestinians. [...] 24172 63 43_Their Number is Up (this is funny, I think)5_Batel25_batel_libes@earthlink.net43_Fri, 14 Nov 2003 12:58:59 -0800 (GMT-08:00)483_us-ascii Hot off the wires:

At New York's Kennedy airport today, an individual later discovered to be a public school teacher was arrested trying to board a flight while in possession of a ruler, a protractor, a setsquare, a slide rule, and a calculator.

At a morning press conference, Attorney general John Ashcroft said he believes the man is a member of the notorious al-gebra movement. He is being charged by the FBI with carrying weapons of math instruction. [...] 24236 53 7_haaretz13_richard smith19_rdsmith1957@msn.com31_Fri, 14 Nov 2003 18:19:39 -050011_iso-8859-1 24290 136 52_One -State Idea Would Mean The Liquidation Of Israel11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org31_Fri, 14 Nov 2003 20:41:33 -0600643_ISO-8859-1

ONE-STATE IDEA WOULD MEAN THE LIQUIDATION OF ISRAEL Frederick Krantz Montreal Gazette, November 14, 2003

Nothing is so irrelevant as a stale idea whose time has not, in fact, come. We are witnessing today what probably will prove quite a brief, ideologically motivated revival of a very old and discredited idea--that there is a one-state solution for achieving Arab-Israeli peace. Such a proposal, however evanescent, is symbolically disturbing. For if achieved, what it would, in fact, mean--and, indeed, what it is intended to mean--would be politicide, the destruction of Israel as a sovereign Jewish state. [...] 24427 106 61_Lord, We Don't Need Another Mountain - was The Real Land Grab12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Sat, 15 Nov 2003 19:56:23 +0200615_us-ascii

Marty, you wrote Actually, Har Chomah was an initiative of the Rabin government that was in > the advanced planning stages by November 1995. Apparently, Rabin did not > regard development at Har Chomah to be inconsistent with a negotiated peace with the Palestinians.

That was the point of the exercise. Keeping Har Choma in the freezer of planning stages and not sending a single bulldozer to play king of the hill was completely consistent with the strategy of a negotiated peace. Har Choma and the lands around it were the only land reserves available for Bethlehem. In exchange for [...] 24534 415 22_Re: The Real Land Grab12_Jessica Bonn21_jessicab@bezeqint.net31_Sun, 16 Nov 2003 01:00:55 +0200340_windows-1255 Hello and hats (kippot?) off (rabbi or not (rabbi? not?)). Although I cannot overstate my disagreement with you, I think I lose nothing by appreciating your noble response. May the spirit of civil dialogue with true listening / openness to self-reflection flood the world Middle East, the world and universe, amen. (alas) [...] 24950 152 19_Re: Visiting Israel3_EJB16_ejbarkon@msn.com31_Sat, 15 Nov 2003 23:20:31 -0500556_iso-8859-1

Many thanks to those who sent about Bnai Mitzvah in Israel!! It was very helpful and interesting too.

In end here is what we've decided to do (given our limited choice of times and funds):

We (me, my son Dan and his grandmom - my mom) are going on a 12 day Bar/Bat Mitzvah tour of Israel through a company called Margaret Morse Tours (out of Hallandale FL). We are leaving on Sun Dec 21st (the day after Dan's ceremony here in our synagogue) and return January 1st. As far as I know, 10 families have signed up so far [...] 25103 49 16_Richard Thompson13_richard smith19_rdsmith1957@msn.com31_Sun, 16 Nov 2003 08:52:33 -050083_iso-8859-1 Richard Thompson will be featured on NPR's Weekend Edition this evening, 25153 49 12_RT revisited13_richard smith19_rdsmith1957@msn.com31_Sun, 16 Nov 2003 09:57:02 -050075_iso-8859-1 OK, I was mistaken, Richard Thompson was on Morning Edition this 25203 114 20_The Best Laid Fences12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Sun, 16 Nov 2003 22:02:38 +0200550_us-ascii Haverot/im We went on a discovery trip around Jerusalem to find out what the separation fence was up to. Our moreh derech was Danny Seidman an American oleh of thirty years. I first met him soon after he arrived at a meeting of young olim, a support group for even more recent olim. The group had an intriguing name, Yoyo -young olim (for) young olim. I ran into him later when he was an officer in the Army Education Seminar in Jerusalem where I lectured periodically. Thirty years later we met on a bus with him doing the talking and [...] 25318 67 19_Re: Visiting Israel0_14_Ohanka@aol.com29_Sun, 16 Nov 2003 17:01:06 EST615_US-ASCII

In a message dated 11/15/03 11:21:01 PM, ejbarkon@msn.com writes:

<<

Many thanks to those who sent about Bnai Mitzvah in Israel!!

It was very helpful and interesting too.



In end here is what we've decided to do (given our limited choice of times and funds):



We (me, my son Dan and his grandmom - my mom) are going on a 12 day Bar/Bat Mitzvah tour of Israel through a company called Margaret Morse Tours (out of Hallandale FL). We are leaving on Sun Dec 21st (the day after Dan's ceremony here in our synagogue) and return January 1st. As far [...] 25386 66 49_Who Is Responsible For Development at Har Chomah?14_Martin Goodman26_martinjgoodman@hotmail.com31_Sun, 16 Nov 2003 23:33:29 +0000493_- Shalom Amnon,

I. In reference to P.M. Rabin's position about Har Chomah, you wrote, "" ... Keeping Har Choma in the freezer of planning stages ... was completely consistent with the strategy of a negotiated peace. Har Choma and the lands around it were the only land reserves available for Bethlehem. In exchange for peace Israel could offer space to alleviate the incredible crowding in urban Bethlehem and access roads for workers from that town to employment in Jerusalem. "" [...] 25453 99 19_Re: Visiting Israel14_Kleins Designs26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Sun, 16 Nov 2003 17:21:53 -0800425_iso-8859-1 Be sure to set aside time to explore inside Kalat Namrood, and to check out the recent and distant history of the place. We were fortunate to be able to speak to some local Arabs (Druze) that were working there, and who shared their coffee with us.

Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, November 16, 2003 2:01 PM Subject: Re: Visiting Israel [...] 25553 154 24_Re: The Best Laid Fences14_Kleins Designs26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Sun, 16 Nov 2003 17:23:52 -0800615_iso-8859-1 Amnon

I couldn't open the article. Could you re-send?

Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: Amnon Hadary To: Habonet@shamash.org Sent: Sunday, November 16, 2003 12:02 PM Subject: The Best Laid Fences



Haverot/im We went on a discovery trip around Jerusalem to find out what the separation fence was up to. Our moreh derech was Danny Seidman an American oleh of thirty years. I first met him soon after he arrived at a meeting of young olim, a support group for even more recent olim. The group had an intriguing name, Yoyo -young olim (for) young olim. I ran into him [...] 25708 151 10_Fw: clocks14_Kleins Designs26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Sun, 16 Nov 2003 17:29:53 -0800258_iso-8859-1 I normally don't send stuff like this to Habonet, but it seemed more than a shame not to share this with you. Anyone that hates me or the stuff I send anyway does not have to open the url's. Or if you open them, you don't have to enjoy them. [...] 25860 47 10_Re: clocks15_Brian S. Cooper21_brian@cooperspace.net31_Sun, 16 Nov 2003 21:55:09 -0500701_iso-8859-1 Steve! I think these are just wonderful! Lovely. They have made my night. Thanks!

--brian

----- Original Message ----- From: "Kleins Designs" To: Sent: Sunday, November 16, 2003 8:29 PM Subject: Fw: clocks



> I normally don't send stuff like this to Habonet, but it seemed more than a shame not to share this with you. Anyone that hates me or the stuff I send anyway does not have to open the url's. Or if you open them, you don't have to enjoy them. > > Steve > > > > > http://www.andre-michelle.com/studies/cable_clock.htm > > http://www.lares.dti.ne.jp/%7Eyugo/storage/monocrafts_ver3/03/index.html > > [...] 25908 51 34_On behalf of the Bay Area Rosh Ken11_Batel Libes25_batel_libes@earthlink.net31_Sun, 16 Nov 2003 19:06:18 -0800555_iso-8859-1 >Hello Habonim Dror Alumni in the Bay Area, >This is Leora Sharone, writing to you from San Fran. I am writing to >announce that I would like to be in contact with anyone who is living in >the Bay Area who is interested in being involved and supporting The Gilboa >community, and the larger Habo world. >AS you might know, Gilboa is going through a big transition right now. The >camp site we have been using for the past six years has been sold to >another camp, and although our chanichim are a tight-knit amazing group of >kids, we are [...] 25960 79 9_Har Choma12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Mon, 17 Nov 2003 16:41:45 +0200445_us-ascii Marty Thanks for the factual corrections you made about who did what when. It always helps to have someone aboard who has constructive concrete knowledge (puns acknowledged.) What I wonder about is: > Bibi implemented handover of Chevron inspite of his right-wing cabinet and coalition. Rather than criticize him, perhaps the Peace Movement ought to credit Netanyahu for accomplishing something that Rabin and Peres failed to do?< [...] 26040 122 29_Fw: Jackie Mason on $tarbucks14_aviva grosbard18_deang@bezeqint.net31_Mon, 17 Nov 2003 20:40:42 +0200539_iso-8859-1 This was so funny-I decided to share it-maybe you have all read it already-but I just got it from someone-enjoy Aviva

> > Here's Jackie Mason's take on Starbuck's. (Imagine Jackie Mason's voice as > you read...) > > If I said to you, "I have a great idea for a business. I'll open a whole > new type of coffee shop. Instead of charging 60 cents for coffee I'll > charge $2.50, $3.50, $4.50, and $5.50. Not only that, I'll have no tables, > no chairs, no water, no free refills, no waiters, no busboys, serve it in > [...] 26163 21 49_Who Is Responsible For Development at Har Chomah?0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com31_Mon, 17 Nov 2003 14:41:38 -0500546_iso-8859-1 Marty. This discussion about who is responsible for Har Chomah is depressing. Simple common sense says we should not do it. If Rabin started it shame on him. If you sat by silently shame on you. This endless trying to blame the Labor party for mistakes in the past to justify the folly of the Likud in the present seems strange. You have just heard four former heads of the Shin Bet issue a warning that we are head toward a catastrophe and we need to make peace. The Ramat Kal Moshe Ayalon is saying similar things. And what are [...] 26185 60 18_ignoring the truth13_pearl skolnik25_pskolnik@netvision.net.il31_Mon, 17 Nov 2003 00:50:30 +0200549_windows-1255 It is false to claim Har Choma was owned by the Palestinians. It is common knowledge that the mountain was bought by a Jew, that he had a team of architects and town planners developing the plans for the mountain, when it was expropriated from him. (I am a friend of one of the architects who spent years working on the plans, only to see the government take the land away from his boss.) The owner was then quoted and shown in all the newspapers threatening to give the deeds to Arafat, because he was so angry at the government. [...] 26246 25 48_Iraq: The War After the War. American RadioWorks11_Phil Safier17_psafier@elixa.com31_Mon, 17 Nov 2003 15:25:03 -0700564_us-ascii See http://www.americanradioworks.org/features/iraq/ for an excellent radio documentary on the invasion. "The military victory in Iraq was stunning and swift, but months after the fall of Baghdad, the U.S. military is still fighting. On August 25, 2003, the number of American solders killed in Iraq during the occupation became greater then those killed during the war. This special report documents the early missed opportunities and cultural misunderstandings that may have contributed to the ongoing armed insurgency that continues to this day." [...] 26272 307 30_Fw: Clock & New E-mail address14_Kleins Designs26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Mon, 17 Nov 2003 18:10:37 -0800 26580 61 10_Rothchilds14_Kleins Designs26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Mon, 17 Nov 2003 18:17:41 -0800315_iso-8859-1 Does anyone have a good source or even personal lore on how the Rothchilds held onto their money, property, possessions (and lives) during the Holocaust and at other times that the rest of Jewry was under seige? It has to be a fascinating story, and there are others besides me that are interested. [...] 26642 132 21_That time of year....0_14_KBob24@aol.com29_Mon, 17 Nov 2003 21:31:27 EST668_US-ASCII Dear Habonetters:

I just finished reading a special NY Times section called "Giving" dedicated to the world of charities and philanthropy. There are articles about orgainzational unethical behavior, cutting edge fundraising methods, but mostly about incredibly selfless activity on behalf of a wide variety of worthy causes.

Reading the articles has motivated me to write all of you with my annual appeal for the Habonim Dror Foundation. Most of you will be receiving a mailing soon asking for your annual gift to the Foundation. If we missed you, you can always go to http://www.habonimdrorfoundation.org/ and make an online contribution. [...] 26775 33 14_Re: Rothchilds9_Ilana Ron20_ilanaron@hotmail.com31_Tue, 18 Nov 2003 03:58:52 +0000 26809 163 14_Re: Rothchilds14_Kleins Designs26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Mon, 17 Nov 2003 22:05:46 -0800550_iso-8859-1 Ilana

Thank you much!

Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: Ilana Ron To: habonet@shamash.org Sent: Monday, November 17, 2003 7:58 PM Subject: Re: Rothchilds



There is an excellent work by Amos Elon on the origins of the dynasty and a masterful two volume comprehensive account by Niall Ferguson (The House of Rothschild, Volume 1 and 2). If you are ever in London, there is an awesome archive and research center devoted entirely to the Rothschild history and contribution (www.rothschildarchive.org). [...] 26973 45 34_Re: Fw: Clock & New E-mail address0_13_SC523@aol.com29_Tue, 18 Nov 2003 02:21:26 EST162_US-ASCII All that I got after I opened up the last clock was this:



Hi Guys this is amazing. I do not know who wrote this HTML code. Asoka Liyanage. 27019 152 24_Re: The Best Laid Fences12_Jessica Bonn21_jessicab@bezeqint.net31_Tue, 18 Nov 2003 13:02:50 +0200598_iso-8859-1 This file doesn't open. Please advise. ----- Original Message ----- From: Amnon Hadary To: Habonet@shamash.org Sent: Sunday, November 16, 2003 10:02 PM Subject: The Best Laid Fences



Haverot/im We went on a discovery trip around Jerusalem to find out what the separation fence was up to. Our moreh derech was Danny Seidman an American oleh of thirty years. I first met him soon after he arrived at a meeting of young olim, a support group for even more recent olim. The group had an intriguing name, Yoyo -young olim (for) young olim. I ran into him later when he was [...] 27172 102 45_RE: [spam] Re: Fw: Clock & New E-mail address12_Stopak, Noam20_NStopak@orionsci.com31_Tue, 18 Nov 2003 06:26:12 -0500542_- Aliya - There was a bit of text near the top left for me that will come into full view if you mouse near it - then it follows the mouse around. A nice bit of javascript programming.

So, Steve, I like the clocks. How about that?

Still don't understand why you has to imply the support of others in order to ask your Rothchild question as a personal interest (insecurity perhaps?) but there are many things I don't under stand. Perhaps one day you will answer all the questions you pose to others when you claim to want to [...] 27275 61 14_Re: Rothchilds9_Ilana Ron20_ilanaron@hotmail.com31_Tue, 18 Nov 2003 13:18:44 +0000 27337 79 27_Common Sense vs. Har Chomah14_Martin Goodman26_martinjgoodman@hotmail.com31_Wed, 19 Nov 2003 06:08:49 +0000530_- Shalom Sam,

You wrote that discussion of responsibility for Har Chomah was depressing. I in contrast was surprised to hear that Har Chomah was even a matter of controversy. Every Prime Minister since M. Begin has supported development of West Bank communities that surround Jerusalem such as Givat Ze'ev and Maaleh Adumim, even though they are located many miles from Jerusalem itself. One might think that it is common sense to apply the same policy to Gilo and Har Chomah which are both contiguous with Jerusalem. [...] 27417 263 34_The Best Laid Attachments (resent)12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Wed, 19 Nov 2003 08:09:21 +0200620_us-ascii

Haverot/im I don't have enough computer savvy to understand why the attachment of the BEST LAID FENCES didn't go through before, so here goes again - this time as plain text.

Amnon

from Washington Post, August 14, 2003; Page A19

Erecting a Barrier to Peace Daniel Seidemann

JERUSALEM -- -- Late last month the Israeli military posted seizure notices in Sur Bahir, a village in southeast Jerusalem. The government is taking a narrow corridor a little less than two miles long and 40 to 70 yards wide, but the impact of this seizure will be huge: It portends the starkest [...] 27681 67 17_Criticizing LABOR14_Martin Goodman26_martinjgoodman@hotmail.com31_Wed, 19 Nov 2003 06:09:53 +0000317_- Shalom Amnon,

In your last posting, you wrote, "" ... Labor has committed many mistakes ... But it built this country. The RIGHT has come close to effecting it's demise. Yet I fear that in your (misguided?) efforts at fairness you often bend over back ward to put LABOR into the dock of the accused. "" [...] 27749 389 38_Re: The Best Laid Attachments (resent)12_Jessica Bonn21_jessicab@bezeqint.net31_Wed, 19 Nov 2003 09:32:08 +0200364_iso-8859-1 Thanks for sharing this, Amnon. As one who is familiar w/Dani Seidmann's quiet, steady work, I can attest that he is one of the unsung heros working for a better Jerusalem. Vken yirbu.. jb ----- Original Message ----- From: Amnon Hadary To: Habonet@shamash.org Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2003 8:09 AM Subject: The Best Laid Attachments (resent) [...] 28139 69 40_Building a Palestinian "Peace Now" model11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org31_Wed, 19 Nov 2003 05:55:01 -0600357_us-ascii Building a Palestinian "Peace Now" model Exclusive Op-Ed for SPME By Ray Hanania

I heard so much about the Israeli organization Peace Now which was founded by 348 reserve officers of the Israeli military back in 1978. But it wasn't until I attended a recent dinner hosted by it's American support group that I understood what it means. [...] 28209 33 21_Re: Criticizing LABOR0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com31_Wed, 19 Nov 2003 09:52:16 -0500554_iso-8859-1 In a message dated 11/19/2003 1:09:53 AM Eastern Standard Time, martinjgoodman@hotmail.com writes: So given what you said below, why not dismantle settlements. It is the official position of our American allies and the only viable way to have any sort of peace? We have just had Ami Ayalon and 3 other heads of the Shin Bet announce publicly that settlements need to go if Israel is to survive. So are you against the survival of Israel Marty or do you have some detailed rebutal of why we need to keep these lawless settlments in place. [...] 28243 52 21_Re: Criticizing LABOR12_Jessica Bonn21_jessicab@bezeqint.net31_Wed, 19 Nov 2003 17:25:26 +0200641_iso-8859-1 Go Sam! ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2003 4:52 PM Subject: Re: Criticizing LABOR



> In a message dated 11/19/2003 1:09:53 AM Eastern Standard Time, martinjgoodman@hotmail.com writes: > So given what you said below, why not dismantle settlements. It is the official position of our American allies and the only viable way to have any sort of peace? We have just had Ami Ayalon and 3 other heads of the Shin Bet announce publicly that settlements need to go if Israel is to survive. So are you against the survival of Israel Marty [...] 28296 116 38_Help Grocery Workers This Thanksgiving0_13_JLCAA@aol.com29_Wed, 19 Nov 2003 10:44:01 EST527_US-ASCII Usually we ask for your activism to win the fights we share. But today we're asking for something different. We're asking you to give thanks to the 80,000 grocery workers in California, West Virginia, Kentucky and Ohio who are holding the line for health care and good jobs--theirs and ours--by making a small contribution so their Thanksgiving will be a little less bleak. Please click on the link below to donate or keep reading for more information. https://secure.ga3.org/08/thankgroceryworkers/nx7qfqW61s1wa [...] 28413 118 31_Re: Common Sense vs. Har Chomah14_Kleins Designs26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Wed, 19 Nov 2003 08:02:57 -0800539_iso-8859-1 Marty

About the "dismissiveness" you alluded to at the end of your letter- Sometimes an idea that has merit (or even a LOT of merit) is read and is agreed upon by a simple nod of the head in one's computer room. At the same time, nay-sayers will come out of the woodwork in droves. That's the way it works, I guess, over much of the planet. Besides, it would probably overload us if we all sent yay and nay messages for each letter or statement of opinion. I, for one, don't always agree with you, but the ideas you [...] 28532 52 22_Cleaning Steve's clock11_Phil Safier17_psafier@elixa.com31_Wed, 19 Nov 2003 09:35:44 -0700 28585 158 26_Re: Cleaning Steve's clock14_Kleins Designs26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Wed, 19 Nov 2003 08:45:17 -0800381_iso-8859-1 You guys are a laugh a minute. ----- Original Message ----- From: Phil Safier To: habonet@shamash.org Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2003 8:35 AM Subject: Cleaning Steve's clock



Right on Noam! You got Steve's number. His feigned compassion has worn thin and his time is running out.

Seconding your emotion minutely, Phil Safier, hour man in NM [...] 28744 187 26_Re: Cleaning Steve's clock12_Jessica Bonn21_jessicab@bezeqint.net31_Wed, 19 Nov 2003 21:40:33 +0200391_iso-8859-1 Hey, who's got time for this? ----- Original Message ----- From: Kleins Designs To: habonet@shamash.org Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2003 6:45 PM Subject: Re: Cleaning Steve's clock



You guys are a laugh a minute. ----- Original Message ----- From: Phil Safier To: habonet@shamash.org Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2003 8:35 AM Subject: Cleaning Steve's clock [...] 28932 114 26_RE: Cleaning Steve's clock12_Stopak, Noam20_NStopak@orionsci.com31_Wed, 19 Nov 2003 14:49:38 -0500577_- Some people clearly have all day. On second thought, I gotta hand it to him, he does know how to tick me off :-)

-----Original Message----- From: Jessica Bonn [mailto:jessicab@bezeqint.net] Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2003 2:41 PM To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: Re: Cleaning Steve's clock



Hey, who's got time for this?

----- Original Message ----- From: Kleins Designs To: habonet@shamash.org Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2003 6:45 PM Subject: Re: Cleaning Steve's clock [...] 29047 74 14_Review of book3_leo18_leodie@isdn.net.il31_Thu, 20 Nov 2003 08:42:54 +0200340_us-ascii The pdf edition of today's HAARETZ in English on the internet has a review of a new book on the Kibbutz. The reviewer is our own David Twersky. The internet site is http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pdf/il10.pdf

Prof. L. Diesendruck Petach Tikva Rd. 7/408 Netanya, 42461 Israel phone: 011 971 9 860 1878 email: leodie@isdn.net.il 29122 44 36_The Logic of Dismantling Settlements14_Martin Goodman26_martinjgoodman@hotmail.com31_Thu, 20 Nov 2003 07:19:47 +0000456_- Shalom Sam:

In your last posting, you wrote, ""... why not dismantle settlements ...? We have just had Ami Ayalon and 3 other heads of the Shin Bet announce publicly that settlements need to go if Israel is to survive... ""

As I stated in my previous posting to you, Israel's current Defense Minister, who represents a large body of Israeli military opinion, characterizes the conclusions of Ayalon as false and politically motivated. [...] 29167 67 40_Re: The Logic of Dismantling Settlements12_Jessica Bonn21_jessicab@bezeqint.net31_Thu, 20 Nov 2003 09:48:13 +0200620_windows-1255 M - Remember learning logic. One of the most common logical errors is that you can have a collection of correct facts but from them draw a false conclusion. (One that stands out prominently is the evacuation argument. Did you oppose the Sinai withdrawl - it did not involve evacuation of Egyptians. v'adrabba: what about the homes and lands lost to Palestinians not so long ago... and even now - demolitions and deportations. )But there are others - hamevin yavin. Maybe someone else can pick it up from here. Best- . JB ----- Original Message ----- From: "Martin Goodman" [...] 29235 77 40_Re: The Logic of Dismantling Settlements13_richard smith19_rdsmith1957@msn.com31_Thu, 20 Nov 2003 06:16:27 -0500371_iso-8859-1 Marty Stated: "Further and as I also stated in my previous posting to you, transfer of Jews against from their homes that is not accompanied by a reciprocal transfer of Palestinians from their homes would establish the principle that Jewish presence anywhere in the Land of Israel is illegitemate and would serve to increase Arab attacks against Israel." [...] 29313 97 48_correction: The Logic of Dismantling Settlements12_Jessica Bonn21_jessicab@bezeqint.net31_Thu, 20 Nov 2003 14:50:54 +0200614_windows-1255 Sorry for this sloppy bit (I moved some text around and it didn't make sense.) The collection of correct facts --> false consequences I was referring to conclusions such as: "The increase in Arab attacks that results from unilateral Israeli concessions is not just a theory." Why is there a necessary link between the "al-Aqsa" Intifada w/the retreat from Lebanon? Tthe situation is too complex to assume this kind of causality. And why would others make the same kind of error: i.e. that transfer of Jews against from their homes that is not accompanied by a reciprocal transfer of Palestinians [...] 29411 96 40_Re: The Logic of Dismantling Settlements0_13_JLCAA@aol.com29_Thu, 20 Nov 2003 10:20:03 EST595_US-ASCII In a message dated 11/20/2003 2:20:45 AM Eastern Standard Time, martinjgoodman@hotmail.com writes:



> Israel's current Defense > Minister, who represents a large body of Israeli military opinion, > characterizes the conclusions of Ayalon as false and politically motivated. > And what makes you think that Mofaz's statement isn't "politically motivated."



> Further and as I also stated in my previous posting to you, transfer of > Jews > against from their homes that is not accompanied by a reciprocal transfer of > > Palestinians from their homes... [...] 29508 29 40_Re: The Logic of Dismantling Settlements0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com31_Thu, 20 Nov 2003 13:12:09 -0500514_iso-8859-1







I agree with what Avi wrote (sse below) Boy the case against the settlements just seems so rock solid and yet there are doubters. Israel must live!

Sam

I would agree there is a problem with Palestinian logic re the Right of Return. If its OK for Palestinians to live among Israelis, it should be OK for Israelis to live among Palestinians - whether in the West Bank or Jaffa. That said, it is not worth the life of one Israeli soldier to defend Ariel. [...] 29538 452 58_Fw: BOYCOTT MEL GIBSON and ALL of his films and endeavors!14_Kleins Designs26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Thu, 20 Nov 2003 10:18:00 -0800441_iso-8859-1 Re: BOYCOTT MEL GIBSON and ALL of his films and endeavors! ----- Original Message ----- From: Kleins Designs To: Steve Klein Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2003 10:16 AM Subject: Re: BOYCOTT MEL GIBSON and ALL of his films and endeavors!



Marcia

1) We don't need another movie blaming the Jews for killing Christ. With anti-semitism on the rise all over the world, this is adding gasoline to the kindling. [...] 29991 161 31_Re: Common Sense vs. Har Chomah0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com29_Thu, 20 Nov 2003 20:59:20 EST625_US-ASCII In a message dated 11/19/2003 1:25:51 AM Eastern Standard Time, martinjgoodman@hotmail.com writes:

> You also wrote that former directors of Shin Bet are criticizing policies > of > the Sharon government and that we should heed their message and make peace > with the Palestinians, presumably something in the Beilin-Mitzna format. I > could trump this suggestion by quoting Sar HaBitachon Mofaz who dismisses > the assessment of the Shin Bet directors, but I will go a step further. The > > Israeli public has steadily and increasingly voted against LABOR and the > LEFT in every election since signing [...] 30153 116 16_Answer to Marty.0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com29_Thu, 20 Nov 2003 21:10:04 EST377_US-ASCII In a message dated 11/19/2003 1:25:51 AM Eastern Standard Time, martinjgoodman@hotmail.com writes: This was addressed by Marty to me. > This means to me > that anyone who seeks to return to the Oslo Process must justify the > failures of the Oslo Process to the Israeli electorate and/or propose > adjustments that would correct the failures of the Oslo Process. [...] 30270 49 18_The Land Of Israel14_Martin Goodman26_martinjgoodman@hotmail.com31_Fri, 21 Nov 2003 09:08:08 +0000494_- Shalom Richard,

In response to my posting "The Logic of Dismantling Settlements", you asked, "" ... exactly what areas do you consider to be included when you use the term, "the Land of Israel? ""

The extent of the Land of Israel is in the eye of the beholder. I was referring to portions of the current State of Israel (including the West Bank and Gaza Strip territories and the Golan Heights) that were inhabited by large numbers of Jews through long periods of history. [...] 30320 113 22_Re: The Land Of Israel13_richard smith19_rdsmith1957@msn.com31_Fri, 21 Nov 2003 04:21:06 -0500570_iso-8859-1 Martin Goodman wrote: "I was referring to portions of the current State of Israel (including the West Bank and Gaza Strip territories and the Golan Heights) that were inhabited by large numbers of Jews through long periods of history."

If we are to consider only the last part of that statement, wouldn't New York City also be a part of the Land of Israel? The problem with the rest of your statement is that the West Bank, Gaza Strip and the Golan Heights are not part of the "current State of Israel." You may call that a political statement if [...] 30434 53 79_Resonses To Jessica's Comments regarding "The Logic of Dismantling Settlements"14_Martin Goodman26_martinjgoodman@hotmail.com31_Fri, 21 Nov 2003 09:50:47 +0000590_- Shalom Jessica,

I. In one of your postings, you asked, "" ... Why is there a necessary link between the "al-Aqsa" Intifada w/the retreat from Lebanon? The situation is too complex to assume this kind of causality. ""

The causal relationship between Barak's withdrawl from Lebanon and the Al Aktzah Intefadeh is not a matter of inference. Rather it was widely reported in the Israeli press prior to outbreak of the intefadeh that militant Palestinian groups including Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and the Tanzim were calling for an armed struggle based on the Hizbollah model. [...] 30488 62 31_What Is Worth A Soldier's Life?14_Martin Goodman26_martinjgoodman@hotmail.com31_Fri, 21 Nov 2003 10:29:11 +0000585_- Shalom to JLCAA@aol.com,

First of all, please forgive me for not addressing you by your name, but you didn't state your name in your posting.

I. In your posting to me you wrote, ""... what makes you think that Mofaz's statement isn't "politically motivated. ""

Of course Mofaz is politically motivated, but let's not go around saying that the folks on the LEFT have no agenda. For starters, many of them have a deep antipathy for Orthodox Jews and revel in the opportunity to use Peace with the Palestinians as a club to hurt the interests of the Orthodox. [...] 30551 42 35_Re: What Is Worth A Soldier's Life?13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Fri, 21 Nov 2003 06:39:35 -0500373_ISO-8859-15 Dear Marty,

Your wrote:

Just imagine some day that all the Jews leave the West Bank and Gaza Strip territories and Palestinian attacks begin in earnest against border settlements like Cochav Yair and Rosh Ha'Ayin. How would you feel if Tel Aviv and Haifa residents were to say 'Cochav Yair and Rosh Ha'Ayin are not worth one soldier's life'? [...] 30594 88 23_Oslo, Settlements, Etc.14_Martin Goodman26_martinjgoodman@hotmail.com31_Fri, 21 Nov 2003 12:09:34 +0000361_- Shalom Sam:

I. In your posting to me, you wrote, "" ... The Israeli public never voted for the expanision or even the retention of settlements. They voted out of fear ... if we can't get a settlement with the Palestineans it is in our interest to get rid of those settlements and surveys of Israeli public opinion increasingly agree with that. "" [...] 30683 33 13_Geneva Accord12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Fri, 21 Nov 2003 16:02:30 +0200591_us-ascii Haverim/ot A pamphlet including The Geneva Initiative has been delivered to every address in Israel. I've looked for the maps that are to be appended to the initiative but so far there's only a single fairly large (three A4 pages) colored map in Hebrew available. Another 30 detailed maps are supposed to come out soon. I've downloaded the text and you can too, from http://www.heskem.org.il/Files.asp . I'll send the maps as soon as they come out. I haven't been as hopeful since the day Miri Aloni sang Shir la-shalom with Rabin. I don't believe in jinxes. That's part of my [...] 30717 23 17_Geneva Accord (2)12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Fri, 21 Nov 2003 16:31:12 +0200571_us-ascii Oops. Found another site http://www.mideastweb.org/geneva1.htm lots of maps, some in Ivrit and more English text.

Amnon



------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/

To unsubscribe email listproc@shamash.org and have your message read: unsubscribe habonet ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 30741 95 27_Re: Oslo, Settlements, Etc.0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com29_Fri, 21 Nov 2003 09:36:21 EST635_US-ASCII In a message dated 11/21/2003 7:09:58 AM Eastern Standard Time, martinjgoodman@hotmail.com writes:

> > Even if dismantling of settlements would produce instantaneous and final > cessation of Palestinian attacks, the cost of building homes and replacing > infrastructure for 200,000 settlers would cost on the order of at least 50 > to 100 billion dollars. Ah so that is your concern. Let me put your mind at ease First, dismaltling the settlements will not produce any such thing. Dismantling the settlements is not a gesture to get the Palestineans to do anything. The settlements are bleeding Israel dry. We are [...] 30837 69 22_Re: The Land Of Israel0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com29_Fri, 21 Nov 2003 09:39:42 EST467_US-ASCII In a message dated 11/21/2003 4:09:05 AM Eastern Standard Time, martinjgoodman@hotmail.com writes:

> Since this latter statement is historically and geographically false, you > are obvious making a political statement. However regardless of your > political opinion about the settlements, basic fairness requires that the > right of settlement inhabitants to remain in their homes be as important as > the right of Arabs to remain in their homes [...] 30907 54 14_Land of Israel16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Fri, 21 Nov 2003 12:13:50 -0500349_us-ascii In Habonet 2763, Richard Smith writes in response to Marty Goodman:




> > First of all, please forgive me for not addressing you by your name, but you > didn't state your name in your posting. > >

Marty: If I have time, I'll reply to your post this weekend. Sorry, but time is a real premium right now. But I still believe that not one Israeli Mother wants to see her son or daughter die to defend people addicted to cheap housing in Ariel or engaged in acts of fanatism on a West Bank hilltop. Avi Lyon 32123 80 18_Re: Land of Israel13_richard smith19_rdsmith1957@msn.com31_Fri, 21 Nov 2003 18:45:58 -0500455_iso-8859-1 Elihu D. Davison wrote, "They are, however, indelibly a visceral part of the Jewish historical consciousness."

I said nothing about history, I was referring to the present and since Israel has not annexed that area, since the world does not recognize it as part of the state of Israel, and since the majority of people who live there are not citizens of Israel I think I was correct in stating it is not part of the Land of Israel. [...] 32204 457 55_Fw: ANTISEMITISM IN GREECE - SWC ISSUES TRAVEL ADVISORY14_Kleins Designs26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Fri, 21 Nov 2003 17:30:06 -0800563_iso-8859-1 Simon Wiesenthal Center ----- Original Message ----- From: Simon Wiesenthal Center To: steve klein Sent: Friday, November 21, 2003 1:30 PM Subject: ANTISEMITISM IN GREECE - SWC ISSUES TRAVEL ADVISORY





OFFICIAL INACTION TO ESCALATING ANTISEMITIC HATE CRIMES AND RHETORIC LEADS SWC TO ISSUE TRAVEL ADVISORY TO GREECE The Simon Wiesenthal Center is issuing a travel advisory urging "extreme caution" for travelers to Greece in wake of the government's failure to take steps to curb growing antisemitic hate crimes and rhetoric. [...] 32662 155 61_=?iso-8859-1?B?5PLh+OQ6IG5hdGl2ZSBBbWVyaWNhbiBwaGlsb3NvcGh5?=5_marks25_molieric@netvision.net.il31_Sat, 22 Nov 2003 09:17:31 +0200439_iso-8859-1

----- Original Message ----- From: Diana To: Viviane&Albie ; Rami Lavie ; Rama&Moshe ; Rafi & Alla Touval ; Mollie Marx ; Max&Rose Schindler ; Max Oren ; Laurie Anders ; jaacov meron ; Idit Forester ; Hickey ; Hanna & Bambi ; ElizabethBickle ; Cocoa&Charlotte Cheifetz ; Bernie Prager ; ???? ?'??? ; $ ?'???? $ ; aviv2222@walla.co.il Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2003 1:15 PM Subject: Fw: native American philosophy [...] 32818 52 15_Thomas Friedman13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il31_Sat, 22 Nov 2003 10:31:05 +0200172_windows-1255 Here's another great Thomas Friedman parody. It goes a little off the deep end, but it's fun nonetheless. Enjoy.

http://www.allahpundit.com/Friedman.jpg 32871 52 16_Supressed report13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il31_Sat, 22 Nov 2003 11:45:34 +0200154_windows-1255 Anti-Semitism in Europe? Nah...

http://news.ft.com/servlet/ContentServer?pagename=FT.com/StoryFT/FullStory&c=StoryFT&cid=1069132068176 32924 46 19_Re: Thomas Friedman0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com29_Sat, 22 Nov 2003 09:00:43 EST223_US-ASCII Jon...this Tom Freedman piece is not off the deep end at all. it is right to the point. It is scaringly right to the point. It deserves to be read and reread..



Thank you for forwarding it.

Sam 32971 48 19_Re: Thomas Friedman13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il31_Sat, 22 Nov 2003 17:26:18 +020094_iso-8859-1 Hi Sam. You're welcome. What do you mean "scaringly right to the point"?

Jon 33020 67 19_Re: Thomas Friedman0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com29_Sat, 22 Nov 2003 13:05:56 EST549_US-ASCII In a message dated 11/22/2003 10:27:25 AM Eastern Standard Time, jonbaum@sasa.org.il writes:

> Hi Sam. You're welcome. > What do you mean "scaringly right to the point"? > > Jon >

A fair question deserves a fair answer. That little piece by Freidman is funny but he is talking about scarry stuff. He is talking about Israel's need to make a choice between keeping the settlements or going out of business. He is not the only one saying this. Lots of people are saying this including Ami Ayalon. That is a scarry reality. [...] 33088 144 59_Seeking an Alternative to a Jewish State/ NY Times, Nov. 2211_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org31_Sat, 22 Nov 2003 15:28:15 -0600523_ISO-8859-1

Seeking an Alternative to a Jewish State By EDWARD ROTHSTEIN

When the distinguished historian Tony Judt declared in the pages of The New York Review of Books recently that "the time has come to think the unthinkable," he must have expected a shocked reaction. The unthinkable was that Israel should be replaced by a binational country in which Jews and Palestinians would live together in democratic harmony. There is, Mr. Judt suggested, "no place in the world today for a 'Jewish state.' " [...] 33233 76 18_Re: Land of Israel12_Jessica Bonn21_jessicab@bezeqint.net31_Sun, 23 Nov 2003 09:27:29 +0200586_iso-8859-1 That's just it! In fact, I've long maintained that the right (particularly the religious right) would be less alienated by the left and more open to an intellectually honest look at the human rights data etc., if the left would embrace the Jewish past in a more self-accepting and even sentimental way (at least in its rhetoric!). The left loses nothing by acknowledging that the Jews have a legitimate claim to Hebron and the machpela, or the right to access to Rachel's Tomb etc. and that is with great sorrow that we relinquish our right to sovereignty there for the [...] 33310 89 50_For NY area:/ Anti-Semitism, Religion and Politics11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org31_Sun, 23 Nov 2003 07:34:07 -0600409_us-ascii Anti-Semitism, Religion, and Politics The Cathedral Church of Saint John The Divine 1047 Amsterdam Avenue (at 112th Street) New York, NY Monday, Nov. 24, 7:00 PM



Sponsored by the Cathedral Forum Series on Religion and Public Life and the Tanenbaum Center for Interreligious Understanding

Featuring:

James Carroll Author, Constantine's Sword: The Church and the Jews [...] 33400 180 76_Albert Kaufman (Galil Winning Way) House Concerts: Seattle, Portland, Eugene14_Albert Kaufman18_albi@earthlink.net31_Sun, 23 Nov 2003 13:48:29 -0800577_iso-8859-1 Shalom, if you know someone in these places, can you please help me spread the word. It would be great to see haboheads at these shows. L'hitraot, Albert

Seattle, December 7th:

I, Albert Kaufman (playa: Nutmeg Alfredo on the playa) will play a house concert in Seattle on Sunday, December 7th. 6pm for snacks and schmoozing, 7pm music. It's the lovely home of Craig Lorch, Julie Haack, and Mama Kitty and Dart the cat. The address is 3308 19th Ave. S. on Beacon Hill - maplink below. Plenty of parking or you can take the 36 bus from downtown and [...] 33581 23 78_RE: Albert Kaufman (Galil Winning Way) - question(s) about "Galil winning way"12_Stopak, Noam20_NStopak@orionsci.com31_Mon, 24 Nov 2003 11:04:43 -0500576_- Speaking of Galil's Winning Way - what exactly was the Galil Symbol the song refers to (and where exactly was it worn)?

Thanks,

Noam

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/

To unsubscribe email listproc@shamash.org and have your message read: unsubscribe habonet ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 33605 39 78_Re: Albert Kaufman (Galil Winning Way) - question(s) about "Galil winning way"12_Jessica Bonn21_jessicab@bezeqint.net31_Mon, 24 Nov 2003 20:06:47 +0200454_windows-1255 Hey Noam - that was below the belt! Jessie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stopak, Noam" To: Sent: Monday, November 24, 2003 6:04 PM Subject: RE: Albert Kaufman (Galil Winning Way) - question(s) about "Galil winning way"



> Speaking of Galil's Winning Way - what exactly was the Galil Symbol the song > refers to (and where exactly was it worn)? > > Thanks, > > Noam > > > [...] 33645 65 21_Is it just me or....?13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Mon, 24 Nov 2003 13:20:36 -0500463_ISO-8859-15 Dear Haboneters,

I have been having trouble getting onto Haaretz Online for a few days. I can open it and maybe quickly open one story but then it freezes up and I can't scroll or do anything else. I have to close my whole browser by overriding it with Alt-ctrl-del and start over. Also I can't get on the Jerusalem Post site at all. Everything else on the web seems to be working fine. Anyone else having these problems or is it just me? [...] 33711 34 25_Re: Is it just me or....?0_13_JLCAA@aol.com29_Mon, 24 Nov 2003 14:01:18 EST78_US-ASCII I have a problem once in awhile with these sites, but not lately. Avi 33746 57 19_Knit one, pearl two12_Stopak, Noam20_NStopak@orionsci.com31_Mon, 24 Nov 2003 15:04:37 -0500563_- Hey Jessie,

That answers the question about where, though not specifically, but what did it look like? I know that we weren't checking out our Galil friends "below the belt" so I missed out on the beauty of the Galil symbol they displayed at this undisclosed location.

Moshava the best kvutza,

Noam

-----Original Message----- From: Jessica Bonn [mailto:jessicab@bezeqint.net] Sent: Monday, November 24, 2003 1:07 PM To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: Re: Albert Kaufman (Galil Winning Way) - question(s) about "Galil winning way" [...] 33804 35 23_Re: HABONET digest 27660_16_JoshCTRS@aol.com31_Mon, 24 Nov 2003 15:49:53 -0500521_iso-8859-1 In a message dated 11/24/2003 12:09:12 AM Eastern Standard Time, habonet@shamash.org writes:

> albi@earthlink.net

Hi Albert,

I immediately went to check out your web site and was dissappointed to see that the link doesn't work. So, I went into the source code and pulled out this URL.

http://www.scn.org/neighbors/beacon/Seattle/index.htm

It's nice to see you again. I wish I could fly out and catch one of your concerts. I look forward to looking you site over slowly. [...] 33840 108 18_Chilonim and Datim14_Martin Goodman26_martinjgoodman@hotmail.com31_Tue, 25 Nov 2003 03:02:45 +0000714_- Shalom Chevreh,

Two Israeli leaders who are Orthodox are currently in the news because of their complaints that Orthodox Jews suffer from discrimination in Israel.

One of the leaders is Elyakim Rubenstein, the Attorney General who is leaving his post at the end of December (and if I am not mistaken, is nominated to serve on the Supreme Court). Regarding coverage of the Mizrachi case by Ha'Aretz newspaper, Rubenstein is reported to have stated, "" Anyone who that newspaper has it in for doesn't stand a chance... "". According to the Jerusalem Post[http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull%26cid=1069487632488], "" Rubinstein recalled a conversation with a [...] 33949 68 19_RE: historic israel9_Jeff Abel15_abel@012.net.il31_Tue, 25 Nov 2003 07:48:10 +0200378_windows-1255 I think that it might help to make the distinction - once a raging argument in Israel - between the Land of Israel and the State of Israel. In the movement we grew up on the term "eretz Yisra'el" and used the term "eretz" as shorthand, often enough, for the state - "ba-aretz" we would (and still do) say when we meant "Israel" - usually the "state of Israel" [...] 34018 49 78_Re: Albert Kaufman (Galil Winning Way) - question(s) about "Galil winning way"14_Albert Kaufman18_albi@earthlink.net31_Mon, 24 Nov 2003 23:47:35 -0800303_iso-8859-1 Around our waists, we wear the galil symbol. we wear it out to breakfast we wear it out to play, and when they ask us why the hell we wear it, we wear it cause Galil has such a winning way.

GALIL WINNING WAY GALIL WINNING WAY

WE WEAR IT CAUSE GALIL HAS SUCH A WINNING WAY. [...] 34068 86 23_Re: Knit one, pearl two12_Jessica Bonn21_jessicab@bezeqint.net31_Tue, 25 Nov 2003 10:33:33 +0200340_windows-1255 Noam: Eat, bite!

I will not proceed with the profanities of our youth, but here's a newspeak version written by myself and dear comrades Dan Bloom and Lewis Santer one lazy afternoon on the porch of the Galil moadon:

Eat right! Pot luck! Hobble, simple Jew. Moslems cripple, nerds, die. Galil's luck to you! [...] 34155 176 19_RE: historic israel11_Hank Kaplan16_hkmg@comcast.net31_Tue, 25 Nov 2003 00:42:31 -0800560_us-ascii At 07:48 AM 11/25/2003 +0200, Jeff Abel wrote: >I think that it might help to make the distinction - once a raging argument >in Israel - between the Land of Israel and the State of Israel. In the >movement we grew up on the term "eretz Yisra'el" and used the term "eretz" >as shorthand, often enough, for the state - "ba-aretz" we would (and still >do) say when we meant "Israel" - usually the "state of Israel" > >The "Land of Israel" is what was promised to our forefathers, Abraham (not >defined very distinctly) Isaac and Jacob, and again to [...] 34332 21 20_Galil's luck to you.12_Jessica Bonn21_jessicab@bezeqint.net31_Tue, 25 Nov 2003 11:21:56 +0200544_windows-1255 If anyone desires an uncensored version, requests will be considered on an individual basis. JB



------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/

To unsubscribe email listproc@shamash.org and have your message read: unsubscribe habonet ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 34354 77 24_Re: Galil's luck to you.13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Tue, 25 Nov 2003 06:52:05 -0500186_us-ascii Aw, we're all adults here! Judy

Jessica Bonn wrote:

>If anyone desires an uncensored version, requests will be considered on an >individual basis. JB > > > > > > > 34432 66 78_RE: Albert Kaufman (Galil Winning Way) - question(s) about "Galil winning way"12_Stopak, Noam20_NStopak@orionsci.com31_Tue, 25 Nov 2003 06:50:50 -0500319_- So my theory is correct - they sing about it all the time, but they are confused about where it is worn and nobody knows what it looks like. So typical... :-)

Do you think a wall along the Delaware might stop PA terrorists from infiltrating the beltway?

Please give me a call while you are in town [...] 34499 75 41_Protecting the DC area from PA terrorists13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Tue, 25 Nov 2003 07:08:52 -0500561_ISO-8859-15 Noam,

I think you should put that idea in Tom RIdge's suggestion box. He is probably running out of ideas by now. After all , If those people in Pennsylvania aren't Palestinian terrorists and fellow travelers, why do they abbreviate their state as PA? I think a security fence is just what we in the DC area need to keep us safe. It should be just about as effective as the gazillion dollar sky marshal plan, which I heard last night has resulted in 26 arrests, almost all of them drunks who would otherwise have to have been subdued by [...] 34575 86 78_Re: Albert Kaufman (Galil Winning Way) - question(s) about "Galil winning way"12_Esther Cohen22_richard.steacy@gte.net31_Tue, 25 Nov 2003 07:06:31 -0500428_Windows-1252 you're heading into town? give me a call, too - or toss a note up onto the habonet and i'll track you down!

-esther cohen (the southern, mosh one, not the galilnikit!)

----- Original Message ----- From: "Stopak, Noam" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2003 6:50 AM Subject: RE: Albert Kaufman (Galil Winning Way) - question(s) about "Galil winning way" [...] 34662 177 45_RE: Protecting the DC area from PA terrorists6_Martin20_emskol@bellsouth.net31_Tue, 25 Nov 2003 07:13:05 -0500322_us-ascii Gee, and I thought it would be a great idea to protect the rest of us from the people in DC....

US Attorney General John Ashcroft was visiting an elementary school. After 15 minutes speaking he says, "I will now answer any questions you have."

Bobby stands up and says: "I have four questions: [...] 34840 59 22_Re: Chilonim and Datim0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com29_Tue, 25 Nov 2003 07:56:17 EST554_US-ASCII Dear Marty

I think you have identified an iceberg but rather than leading to Israel's destruction it made lead to its redemptiom. I am delighted to hear that "dati-im" who have created so much grief for Israel with their "Kfia Datit" and their tendency toward extreme right wing politics are feeling just a little heat. I think this should be a wake up call for people who for years have taken it for granted that they can dictate terms to the rest of us. Religious coersion is a sin. It is a black mark on the state of Israel. Some [...] 34900 79 22_Re: Chilonim and Datim21_wendy Bensussen-Walls15_wendybw@msn.com31_Tue, 25 Nov 2003 08:44:50 -0800638_iso-8859-1 This entire discussion sounds like Sinat Chinam to me. In the end hatred does not help anyone. Wendy

----- Original Message ----- From: Smfgrappa@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2003 4:57 AM To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: Re: Chilonim and Datim

Dear Marty

I think you have identified an iceberg but rather than leading to Israel's destruction it made lead to its redemptiom. I am delighted to hear that "dati-im" who have created so much grief for Israel with their "Kfia Datit" and their tendency toward extreme right wing politics are feeling just a little heat. I think this should be a wake [...] 34980 51 7_Mailbox13_richard smith19_rdsmith1957@msn.com31_Tue, 25 Nov 2003 15:41:11 -050076_iso-8859-1 Any old Moshniks up for a drive to Bucks County; I'm in need of a 35032 83 11_RE: Mailbox12_Stopak, Noam20_NStopak@orionsci.com31_Tue, 25 Nov 2003 15:53:15 -0500391_- Is that the freakin' Galil symbol? Imagine wearing that around your waist... When do we leave? An excellent plan for a holiday weekend.... Chug Galil rides again! Steve Schrier, Peanuts, Darren Tabatznik, Mar Beno - where are you?

-----Original Message----- From: richard smith [mailto:rdsmith1957@msn.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2003 3:41 PM To: habonet Subject: Mailbox [...] 35116 31 11_RE: Mailbox20_Naomi Goldberg Honor18_naomijgh@yahoo.com37_Tue, 25 Nov 2003 14:02:36 -0800 (PST)529_us-ascii Somehow, I knew it was going to come around to that mailbox...

Some things never change.

Happy turkey to all

Naomi

__________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now http://companion.yahoo.com/

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 35148 108 11_Re: Mailbox12_Esther Cohen22_richard.steacy@gte.net31_Tue, 25 Nov 2003 22:38:14 -0500611_Windows-1252 Messagehey, noam - who's mar beno? esther (still here in dc) cohen ----- Original Message ----- From: Stopak, Noam To: habonet@shamash.org Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2003 3:53 PM Subject: RE: Mailbox



Is that the freakin' Galil symbol? Imagine wearing that around your waist... When do we leave? An excellent plan for a holiday weekend.... Chug Galil rides again! Steve Schrier, Peanuts, Darren Tabatznik, Mar Beno - where are you? -----Original Message----- From: richard smith [mailto:rdsmith1957@msn.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2003 3:41 PM To: habonet Subject: Mailbox [...] 35257 85 27_song background information15_Beverly Warshai21_warshai@sbcglobal.net31_Wed, 26 Nov 2003 00:49:05 -0500492_Windows-1252 Hi, I am the music teacher at the Hebrew Day School in Ann Arbor and am looking for some information about a song I am using for our music festival in December with the first grade students. I had learned it at Tavor in the 60's and it is so simple and catchy I don't know why I can't find it anywhere and no one I ask has heard of it. So I am sending it out here and hope that some of MY madrichim are lurking around here that can shed some light as to where it came from. [...] 35343 111 46_Chanukah on the J Site & 150 Chanukah Hotsites13_pearl skolnik25_pskolnik@netvision.net.il31_Wed, 26 Nov 2003 09:30:57 +0200602_windows-1255 Hope Jacob's site will be of interest to you all! Best wishes, Pearl

Subject: FW: CJI Update: Chanukah on the J Site & 150 Chanukah Hotsites



> > Hi Everyone! > > The next CJI job report is scheduled for this Wednesday night. > Below is the Chanukah J Site and Hotsites announcement. > Please forward this message to relatives and friends who may > benefit from these holiday resources. > Shavua Tov, > Jacob > ----------------------------- > Hi Everyone! > > Chanukah, the Jewish Festival of Lights, is observed for > eight days, beginning on the evening of the [...] 35455 36 27_An insult against David Low6_meyers23_meyers@netvision.net.il31_Wed, 26 Nov 2003 11:47:30 +0200599_ISO-8859-1 Shalom, I imagine that only people of my advanced age remember the work of David Low, a British cartoonist who played a key role in mobilizing public opinion against Nazism and Facism. He would be turning in his grave had he learned that the British Political Cartoon Society has just awarded the first prize in its annual competition to David Brown for his portrayal of Ariel Sharon gobbling down a Palestinian child. Had it appeared in a publication of the Islamists, it would not have been surprising. But it was published by "The Independent", one of the U.K.'s "quality papers" [...] 35492 47 31_Re: An insult against David Low11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org31_Wed, 26 Nov 2003 05:54:09 -0600739_us-ascii Here is the URL from Ha'aretz on that shameful cartoon.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/365402.html

---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: meyers Reply-To: habonet@shamash.org Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 11:47:30 +0200

>Shalom, > I imagine that only people of my advanced age remember the work of >David Low, a British >cartoonist who played a key role in mobilizing public opinion against >Nazism and Facism. He would >be turning in his grave had he learned that the British Political >Cartoon Society has just awarded the first >prize in its annual competition to David Brown for his portrayal of >Ariel Sharon gobbling down a >Palestinian child. [...] 35540 36 31_Re: song background information20_Naomi Goldberg Honor18_naomijgh@yahoo.com37_Wed, 26 Nov 2003 06:13:07 -0800 (PST)324_us-ascii Bev--

I certainly remember the dance from Mosh, but know nothing about its background. It always seemed to end with "Yadaim al [somebody]!" and a big rush to get to that person and then back to your place to finish the verse. On the last histovev, we also moved one partner around the circle each time. [...] 35577 52 31_RE: song background information12_Stopak, Noam20_NStopak@orionsci.com31_Wed, 26 Nov 2003 10:43:51 -0500306_- Hi Naomi (and Bev),

I remember the rushing around starting with yadim al ha rosh (and beten(sp?)) and everyone rushing to place hands on Steve Schrier, but that could be just because he was the rosh my first summer - it is of course entirely possible that the tradition predated that time... [...] 35630 76 15_RE: Mar Mailbox12_Stopak, Noam20_NStopak@orionsci.com31_Wed, 26 Nov 2003 10:45:10 -0500283_- Our buddy Osama Ben Laden.

-----Original Message----- From: Esther Cohen [mailto:richard.steacy@gte.net] Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2003 10:38 PM To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: Re: Mailbox



hey, noam - who's mar beno? esther (still here in dc) cohen

35707 37 59_looking for Chanukah stories without the miracle of the oil0_26_Sharon_Gates@longbeach.gov31_Wed, 26 Nov 2003 08:13:49 -0800378_us-ascii I have long felt that the miracle of the Maccabees' victory over the Greeks was more meaningful than the oil lasting 8 days. Unfortunately, just about every children's story that I have found emphasizes the miracle of the oil. Can anyone out in Habonet-land recommend a Chanukah story (for elementary-school-aged kids) where the victory over tyranny is the prime focus? 35745 21 31_Re: song background information0_18_Rachelbern@aol.com31_Wed, 26 Nov 2003 11:16:27 -0500328_iso-8859-1 I learned that song before I was started at Mosh (1970, the 2nd? 3rd? year of putting yadayim al Bumba's [Schrier] beten), we sang it in kindergarten at Solomon Schechter Day School in 1965. I've always assumed it was a traditional Hebrew teacher's game -- like "Shimon Omer" -- for learning basic Hebrew words. [...] 35767 37 63_Re: looking for Chanukah stories without the miracle of the oil12_David Fleiss20_dfleiss@pipeline.com31_Wed, 26 Nov 2003 12:41:35 -0500 35805 333 40_" pintele yid" (was Chilonim and Datiim)12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Wed, 26 Nov 2003 21:56:10 +0200583_iso-8859-1 Marty, You wrote Based on my experience in the short time that I lived in Israel, I believe that the statements of Rubenstein and Katzav are the tip of an iceberg towards which the State of Israel is sailing. Clinking ice puts me in mind of tall drinks being served to people with whom one looks forward to having a good discussion and you are one of those with whom I appreciate talking about issues of ultimate Jewish concerns. My conversational mode relies heavily on insights I draw from modern Hebrew literature although the associations are all mine. So here's [...] 36139 59 10_Rav Ovadia13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il31_Thu, 27 Nov 2003 07:04:06 +0200644_windows-1255 w w w . h a a r e t z d a i l y . c o m

He's back! It's been a while since my favorite thug got quoted.



---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----

Last update - 10:50 26/11/2003 Shas Rabbi Yosef: 'All the troubles' come from Ashkenazi Jews By Haaretz Service

The spiritual leader of the Shas party, Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, a former Sephardi chief rabbi who has railed against women, leftists, kibbutz members and court justices in past sermons, was quoted Wednesday as saying "all the troubles came from the Ashkenazis" - a reference to Jews from central [...] 36199 22 13_Chag Samea'ch15_Brian S. Cooper21_brian@cooperspace.net31_Thu, 27 Nov 2003 08:49:27 -0500530_iso-8859-1 Have a very happy Thanksgiving to all of you who celebrate this chag!

Regards, Brian

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/

To unsubscribe email listproc@shamash.org and have your message read: unsubscribe habonet ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 36222 124 25_Fw: Fw: Some.............14_Kleins Designs26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Thu, 27 Nov 2003 06:39:54 -0800364_iso-8859-1 Some of you will like this; some won't.

Steve



----- Original Message ----- From: Marcia Plager To: Carol Nalin ; Barry Szemere ; Bob and Barbara Fruitman ; Eileen Kelmanson ; Avravraham and Malka Czyzyk ; Arvin Tunick ; Geoff and Linda Remes ; Israel and Marlene Zakai Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2003 10:47 PM Subject: Fw: [...] 36347 120 25_Re: Fw: Some.............13_pearl skolnik25_pskolnik@netvision.net.il31_Thu, 27 Nov 2003 18:57:29 +0200378_iso-8859-1 actually, your story reminded me of what a shaliach to Russia in the 1950's told us: the Jews learned to read between the lines of the newspaper and learned the true story of what was happening in Israel. pearl ----- Original Message ----- From: Kleins Designs To: habonet@shamash.org Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2003 4:39 PM Subject: Fw: Fw: Some............. [...] 36468 66 26_catoon vs real-life babies13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il31_Thu, 27 Nov 2003 19:13:52 +0200269_windows-1255 Is it just me, or did anybody notice the contrast between this:

http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=35842



And this:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/storydisplay.cfm?storyID=3536543&thesection=news&thesubsection=world 36535 945 23_Re: HABONET digest 276914_Steve Schreier13_steve@ats.org31_Thu, 27 Nov 2003 13:09:00 -0500574_ISO-8859-1 I THINK I MAY BE THE GUILTY ONE WHO BROUGHT THE HISTOVEV ET HAHAR DANCE/SONG TO BOTH MOSH AND TAVOR. WE ACTUALLY STARTED IT IN MIRIAM IN 1965. IN THE SPIRIT OF FOLK LEGENDS, I THINK WE WERE KIBBITZING AND SOMEBODY STARTED PLAYING-SINGINGK "SHE'LL BE COMING ROUND THE MOUNTAIN". I BELIEVE I WAS MAKING A POINT ABOUT THE VALUE OF RIKUD (OTHER THAN KNOWING COMPLICATED STEPS AND BEING GRACEFUL....TWO THINGS OF WHICH I WAS NEVER ACCUSED). I ASKED FOR A TUNE, AND SOMEHOW WE GOT TO THE BEVERLY HILLBILLIES THEME SONG, AND MODIFIED THAT INTO THE TUNE. I MAY HAVE [...] 37481 1123 23_Re: HABONET digest 276912_Jessica Bonn21_jessicab@bezeqint.net31_Thu, 27 Nov 2003 20:57:44 +0200407_iso-8859-1 In fact, I already wrote to Beverly that it resembled (in its incarnations it must have changed slightly) the B. Hillbillies song - now I know why.... but it's all bashert, since her name is Beverly. Hey, is this a setup? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Schreier" To: Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2003 8:09 PM Subject: Re: HABONET digest 2769 [...] 38605 84 14_Re: Rav Ovadia11_lewis levin19_lyaron@inter.net.il31_Thu, 27 Nov 2003 20:34:55 +0200459_windows-1255

----- Original Message ----- From: "Jonathan Baum" To: "Habonet" Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2003 7:04 AM Subject: Rav Ovadia



While I was listning to a raido discusion about Rav Ovadia latest semons it was mintoned that the Sephardim use the kosherut butchering structure "basar chalak bet Yosef". Interesting coincidence, is there any connection Rav Ovidia and bet Yosef? [...] 38690 73 14_Re: Rav Ovadia13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il31_Thu, 27 Nov 2003 22:19:15 +0200593_windows-1255 Lewis I'm certainly not an authority on kosher butchering, but I do know that Ovadia Yosef is considered by his peers to be a Torah scholar of vast knowledge and erudition - I read in a Ma'ariv article that his personal library consists of over 20,000 books, every one on Jewish law and faith. Unfortunately, this wisdom is accompanied by a ferocious distain of those whose values are different from his own and a willingness to express it. The Sephardim were once famous for their tolerance. That, it would seem, is a tradition Ovadia Yosef has forgotten, although it could [...] 38764 61 20_looking for an essay13_avi rosenberg16_avi@gezer.org.il31_Fri, 28 Nov 2003 13:27:47 +0200266_windows-1255 I just finished reading "Mr. Mani" by A.B. Yehoshua and I saw somewhere that he wrote a commentary on the book, which I would like to read. If anyone has a copy or knows where I could find it on the web, I would appreciate it getting a hold of it. [...] 38826 21 24_Re: looking for an essay13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il31_Fri, 28 Nov 2003 14:39:30 +0200545_windows-1255 The essay was published in:

Yehoshua, A.B. "Mr Mani and the Akedah." Judaism, Winter 2001, 61-65.

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network, http://shamash.org a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/

To unsubscribe email listproc@shamash.org and have your message read: unsubscribe habonet ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 38848 136 30_Re: catoon vs real-life babies14_Kleins Designs26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Fri, 28 Nov 2003 13:01:29 -0800581_windows-1255 Jonathon

Thank you for the juxtaposition of the two articles. I don't know how anyone could get their heads screwed on so twistedly as the perpetrators of that cartoon, or its admirers.

I was sorry at the time to see Israel attempting to get the UN to resolve a motion against killing Jewish children by extremists. the UN as it has become would never do that. It would have been wiser, I think, for Israel to have brought up a resolution for the extremists to stop killing CHILDREN. How nice that would be, for them to stop killing Palestinian, or [...] 38985 604 24_Re: Looking for an Essay12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Sat, 29 Nov 2003 09:26:04 +0200185_us-ascii Avi Shalom, You asked about the essay Buli wrote about the Akedah motif in his Mr Mani. Rivka and I translated it and I'm sending it as an attachment. Shavuah tov,

Amnon 39590 207 14_re: zug el zug15_Beverly Warshai21_warshai@sbcglobal.net31_Sat, 29 Nov 2003 19:17:36 -0500422_Windows-1252 Hi Jessica, Steve and others, Thanks for your notes about Zug el Zug. I had never made the connection to the Beverly Hillbilly theme song. Coincidence and all. So far I'll have to go with Steve's story, "in the spirit of folk legend" which actually seems to fit with the other responses that I've gotten from another list I'm on for Jewish song leaders called Hanashir, who I also posed the question to. [...] 39798 93 19_Re: historic israel13_pearl skolnik25_pskolnik@netvision.net.il31_Sun, 30 Nov 2003 23:24:41 +0200554_windows-1255 thanks Jeff, for a very interesting s'kira. all the best, pearl





> I think that it might help to make the distinction - once a raging argument > in Israel - between the Land of Israel and the State of Israel. In the > movement we grew up on the term "eretz Yisra'el" and used the term "eretz" > as shorthand, often enough, for the state - "ba-aretz" we would (and still > do) say when we meant "Israel" - usually the "state of Israel" > > The "Land of Israel" is what was promised to our forefathers, Abraham (not [...]