1 SHAMASH.ORG /usr/www/wwwhc/listserv/archives/habonet October 2003 2 38 12_(no subject)13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Wed, 01 Oct 2003 07:01:14 -0400501_us-ascii Dear Chevreh,

After 10 days without electricity and 13 days without phone in the aftermath of Isabel, our family home has at last been reconnected to the modern world! What I learned from this experience is that all that is needed to reduce DC to the functioning equivalent of Kabul or Baghdad is to fell a large number of huge trees at widely dispersed points throughout the city. So if you hear of young men from Saudi Arabia enrolling in lumberjack school, let Tom Ridge know. [...] 41 197 26_Re:answer to phil's attack13_pearl skolnik25_pskolnik@netvision.net.il31_Wed, 01 Oct 2003 13:18:28 +0200574_iso-8859-1

In answer to phil's missive (see below):

people are not born evil, murderous, etc. I believe that Judaism teaches that we can choose good or bad. There can be no good unless there is an objective bad. The challenge of life is to choose the good, and that is what makes one a moral person. We can through mitzvot become moral and ethical human beings. The fact that we have free will to choose between good and evil makes us superior to lower species. The possibility to choose the good over the bad/evil is what gives life meaning. People are [...] 239 25 14_narrow minded?16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Wed, 01 Oct 2003 11:05:41 -0400495_us-ascii Emabear (Ellen) says of my background report on Ron Lauder that I'm narrow-minded. Ellen, your three word message is mystifying. Can you please explicate, elucidate and perhaps even exegete? Thanks. ELIHU DAVISON



------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 265 56 18_Re: narrow minded?0_15_Emabear@aol.com28_Wed, 1 Oct 2003 11:55:33 EDT516_US-ASCII Dear Ehilu, Should this not be sent via Habonet? Don't know. chas v'halila, I would say that your knowledge is limited. In fact I often admire you usage of vocabulary and the amount of resources you seem to have at hand. The reference was to condemning someone, in the case Lauder, because of his politics. In his case, at least he supports Jews and Israel in some way. I think, with your mind, you knew my answer anyway! Let's end this with a 8-) and wishes for a peaceful year for all man/womankind. [...] 322 108 15_Singing Lessons14_Kleins Designs26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com30_Wed, 1 Oct 2003 10:12:32 -0700387_iso-8859-1 Habonet

As the Days of Awe pass over us (and sometimes through us), I am reminded of a wonderful expression that has allowed me to retain what is left of my sanity, and hopefully, to use my energies in the most efficient way I can. It goes something like this:

"You don't teach a pig to sing. You waste your time.....................and you annoy the pig." [...] 431 32 18_Re: narrow minded?0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com28_Wed, 1 Oct 2003 16:01:07 EDT604_US-ASCII

In a message dated 10/1/03 8:59:52 AM, Emabear@aol.com writes:

<< I would say that your knowledge is limited. In fact I often admire you usage of >>

Just for the record, I would like to state that Elihu Davison is one of the brightest and most informed of all Jewish people I know. His opinions of Ron Lauder are valuable in that they go deeper than just someone who supports Israel- but supports Israel "how."--Although I have sparse knowledge of politics, I would trust Elihu and his observations more than any rabbi I know--Chag Sameach and g'mar chatima tova--sue [...] 464 74 26_Re:answer to phil's attack13_richard smith19_rdsmith1957@msn.com30_Wed, 1 Oct 2003 16:27:34 -0400446_iso-8859-1 Peale,

Absolutely nothing in the original article that Phil sent, said anything was wrong with Judaism or the Ten Commandments. The point of the article, as I understood it, was that very little had to do with law and therefore was not necessarily needed in front of a secular courthouse. That you took it as a slam against Judasim, it seems to me, says much more about you than it does about the author of the article, who is a 539 67 18_Re: narrow minded?13_richard smith19_rdsmith1957@msn.com30_Wed, 1 Oct 2003 16:30:15 -0400286_iso-8859-1 Ellen says: "In his case, at least he supports Jews and Israel in some way."

Sorry, this doesn't do it for me. If his support of Israel and Jews includes trying to silence those Jews with which he disagrees then his support is something Israel and Jews can do without. 607 59 19_Re: Singing Lessons13_richard smith19_rdsmith1957@msn.com30_Wed, 1 Oct 2003 16:33:00 -040093_iso-8859-1 Steve,

Is this a cut at those of use who suffer from tone deafness (or as I 667 26 39_The immorality of the Ten Commandments.0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com31_Wed, 01 Oct 2003 16:35:06 -0400722_iso-8859-1 The is only one God and Phil is his holy prophtet. There is only one comandment. Thou Shalt Not Squint.



Amen

Sam

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/

* * FREE JEWISH LEARNING * * Shamash invites you to join MyJewishLearning.com, a comprehensive, objective, authoritative and interactive learning resource in all areas of Judaism. Free membership via http://www.myjewishlearning.com/shamash ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 694 91 39_Fw: Love of death - 3 years of Intifada13_pearl skolnik25_pskolnik@netvision.net.il31_Wed, 01 Oct 2003 23:30:07 +0200694_windows-1255 Print Story - canada.com networkInteresting article for Israelis. It helps knowing that there are people and media abroad who understand what is happening here.





This anniversary deserves no celebration



The Ottawa Citizen



Tuesday, September 30, 2003

In the last three years, Israeli-Palestinian fighting has claimed three times as many Palestinian lives as Israeli ones: 2,477 to 860. But the numbers tell us little about the dynamics of this conflict. More illuminating is that while Israelis this week are in a sombre mood -- as they were last week and the week before that -- thousands of Palestinians took to the [...] 786 27 8_Re: Coke12_Doug Greener25_ddwgreen@netvision.net.il31_Wed, 01 Oct 2003 23:32:16 +0200342_iso-8859-1 To set the record straight, it was Pepsi that caved in to the Arab boycott and refused to sell to Israel, not Coca Cola. When Pepsi finally did appear in Israel, we seriously considered boycotting it in protest... only problem is we liked it better than Coke. Nowadays, of course, we don't touch the stuff for health reasons! [...] 814 30 8_Re: Coke0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com28_Wed, 1 Oct 2003 18:19:47 EDT553_US-ASCII When I was on workshop back in the early 60's- it was Coke. I remember this because I was addicted to it after having free access to it at my father's drugstore ( the fountain) all my life, and I didn't like Pepsi. I was crushed when it wasn't available in Israel because of the boycott, and then some of the more adventurous chevre found some black market stuff in Jerusalem when we went ( it was still divided)....SO when we needed "drink"- it was bira schora and assis drinks with gazoz....At any rate- it doens't matter- so SHANA TOVA [...] 845 27 8_Re: Coke15_Brian S. Cooper21_brian@cooperspace.net31_Wed, 01 Oct 2003 20:22:37 -0400499_iso-8859-1 >....SO when we needed "drink"- it was bira schora and > assis drinks with gazoz....

And Tempo... Don't you remember Tempo? The shoulders of Kvish HaArava were littered with Tempo bottles for years...

--brian

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 873 49 16_Re: (no subject)0_14_KBob24@aol.com28_Wed, 1 Oct 2003 23:00:41 EDT125_US-ASCII Judy - welcome back to civilization (and Habonet...or are they one in the same?)

gmar hatima tova,

Ken 923 411 31_Fwd: Excellent: We are all Jews0_13_SC523@aol.com28_Wed, 1 Oct 2003 23:54:43 EDT154_US-ASCII I never thought I'd even stop to read an article by a former head of the CIA, but this article is truly beautifully-written - read on(from Aliya) 1335 28 16_Re: (no subject)13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Thu, 02 Oct 2003 00:05:49 -0400476_us-ascii somedays the same, some days opposites. shnat shalom, Judy

KBob24@aol.com wrote:

> Judy - welcome back to civilization (and Habonet...or are they one in > the same?) gmar hatima tova, Ken

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 1364 415 46_Fwd: Fw: General Wesley Clark- (worth reading)0_13_SC523@aol.com28_Thu, 2 Oct 2003 00:19:48 EDT250_US-ASCII Well, 2 posts in 2 days, but I would really like to get people's opinions on the article below. I as qute interested in both Dean and Clark but now neither looks like such a viable candidate to me.

Your opinions please? Thanks - Aliya 1780 51 45_Aliya:attachments erased by anti-virus/server13_pearl skolnik25_pskolnik@netvision.net.il31_Thu, 02 Oct 2003 08:48:40 +0200278_windows-1255 The problem of viruses in computers is so great in Israel that my server has eliminated them before they even get to my computer. The two articles you sent were unaccessable, therefore. Is it possible to send a link to them? or to print them into text?

pearl 1832 395 28_ARticles without attachments0_13_SC523@aol.com28_Thu, 2 Oct 2003 01:55:14 EDT653_UTF-8 I sent these articles as plain text but your computer must have converted them to attachments. HEre they are pasted in. I hope it works. Aliya (The writer was director of the Central Intelligence Agency 1993—95.) "We Are All Jews" - R. James Woolsey I sometimes get asked these days if I’m Jewish — it’s my neoconish views on defense and foreign affairs, I suppose. For a while I would just say, "No, Presbyterian,‘ but I’ve started saying instead, ’Well, I anchor the Presbyterian wing of the Jewish Institute for National Security Affairs (JINSA: see [...] 2228 321 16_Again, Pasted in0_13_SC523@aol.com28_Thu, 2 Oct 2003 01:58:16 EDT324_ISO-8859-1 Well, 2 posts in 2 days, but I would really like to get people's opinions on the article below. I as qute interested in both Dean and Clark but now neither looks like such a viable candidate to me.

Your opinions please? Thanks - Aliya





Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2003 10:30 AM [...] 2550 101 29_Slamming the Ten Commandments14_Martin Goodman26_martinjgoodman@hotmail.com31_Thu, 02 Oct 2003 06:37:39 +0000422_- Shalom Richard,

In your posting to Pearl regarding her reaction to Christopher Hitchen's article about the Ten Commandments, you wrote, "" ... Absolutely nothing in the original article that Phil sent said [that] anything was wrong with Judaism or the Ten Commandments... ""

With respect, I disagree with your statement. Examples of Hitchen's statements against the Ten Commandments are listed below. [...] 2652 97 20_Re: Again, Pasted in13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il30_Thu, 2 Oct 2003 17:46:31 +0200532_iso-8859-1 Hey Aliya.

The article you sent about Wesley Clark certainly had some interesting points, but what stood out for me - especially since I'm sort of a Neo-Con myself - is that the writer fails to mention who gave General Clark the orders to bomb Belgrade and arm the Bosnians. Need I remind you who was President of the US while this was going on? Also, my sympathy for coca-growing peasants only goes so far. Perhaps the writer prefers allowing free imports of cocaine in order to help South American farmers. [...] 2750 46 20_Re: Again, Pasted in13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Thu, 02 Oct 2003 11:32:30 -0400 2797 69 20_Re: Again, Pasted in13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il30_Thu, 2 Oct 2003 18:51:33 +0200443_iso-8859-1 Hey Judy. Glad to hear you got your power turned on again.

As for "no bottom", perhaps I've been reading too many Patrick O'Brian novels lately. The expression refers to a person who is not overburdened with principles other than ambition and self-advertisement. Wesley Clark is an extremely intelligent man, to be sure, but he seems to have left a sour taste in the mouth of everyone he has served with, under or over. [...] 2867 296 36_narrow minded redux - the last word?16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Thu, 02 Oct 2003 11:59:05 -0400644_us-ascii I awoke this morning to find more sturm-und-drang regarding my critique of Ron Lauder and Ellen Ginsberg's criticism of me as "narrow minded" for my critique. Let me put some perspective on Lauder's political behaviors as a public and major figure in Jewish communal life, and then conclude by responding to Ellen. I will agree to stipulate that Lauder has devoted significant effort and money to wonderful projects for the rehabilitation and rescue of world Jewry, especially in eastern Europe after the fall of the Soviet Union. Richard Holbrooke, Clinton's UN Ambassador, has publicly praised Lauder for, during his (Lauder's) [...] 3164 34 12_shanah tovah20_Naomi Goldberg Honor18_naomijgh@yahoo.com36_Thu, 2 Oct 2003 10:05:40 -0700 (PDT)628_us-ascii To all--

Just emerging briefly from lurkdom to add my wishes for the New Year, for a year of peace and health and happiness for us all.

G'mar hatimah tovah and an easy fast.

Naomi Goldberg Honor

__________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 3199 42 33_RE: Spamming the Ten Commandments12_Stopak, Noam20_NStopak@orionsci.com30_Thu, 2 Oct 2003 14:18:06 -0400562_iso-8859-1 Shalom Marty,

One item in your note leads me to ask a question about modern practice. With regard to Shabbat you said:

"Hitchen also denies that observance of Shabbat (Commandment #4) has a moral

dimension. The egalitarian nature of Shabbat, which was to be celebrated by

all members of the community (males/females, adults/children, free individuals/slaves, foreigners, and animals) certainly is moral in its conception. The failure of Hitchen to acknowledge this seems to be deliberate moral blindness on his part." [...] 3242 45 20_Re: Again, Pasted in13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Thu, 02 Oct 2003 15:27:14 -0400 3288 51 20_Re: Again, Pasted in13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il30_Thu, 2 Oct 2003 22:30:23 +0200149_iso-8859-1 No, Judy, I decided a long time ago that I wouldn't vote in American elections. No representation without taxation is my motto.

Jon 3340 86 33_Re: Slamming the Ten Commandments13_richard smith19_rdsmith1957@msn.com30_Thu, 2 Oct 2003 15:32:30 -0400558_iso-8859-1 Martin,

You make some good points, but with some reservations now, I still stand by my statement that the article in question does not knock Judaism (in particular) or the Ten Commandments. First of all, I believe Hitchens was attempting to be funny, and I for one thought he was successful. Second, your quotations not withstanding, his criticism of the Ten Commandments was as a basis of secular law. Though I am sure Ashcroft would love to arrest everyone with sinful thoughts, most people see the idea as "totalitarian" in nature. [...] 3427 93 33_Re: Spamming the Ten Commandments13_richard smith19_rdsmith1957@msn.com30_Thu, 2 Oct 2003 15:47:15 -0400365_iso-8859-1 Noam queried, "I'm curious how you square the egalitarian nature of Shabbat which is shared by all with the practice of employing a 'shabos goy' to perform various tasks which are otherwise proscribed. I'm not saying this practice is advocated in the Tanach, but it seems widespread. Or is the 'shabos goy' another 'hole in the sheet' type canard?" [...] 3521 536 32_Re: ARticles without attachments13_pearl skolnik25_pskolnik@netvision.net.il31_Thu, 02 Oct 2003 22:35:34 +0200351_UTF-8 thank you Aliya. Now that I see the article, i remember reading it here in Israel, probably in the Jerusalem Post. But, now I can send it on to others! shabbat shalom. pearl





I sent these articles as plain text but your computer must have converted them to attachments. HEre they are pasted in. I hope it works. Aliya [...] 4058 44 33_Re: Spamming the Ten Commandments13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Thu, 02 Oct 2003 16:45:18 -0400 4103 35 33_Re: Spamming the Ten Commandments12_David Fleiss20_dfleiss@pipeline.com42_Thu, 2 Oct 2003 17:10:59 -0400 (GMT-04:00) 4139 53 33_Re: Spamming the Ten Commandments13_richard smith19_rdsmith1957@msn.com30_Thu, 2 Oct 2003 17:17:20 -040011_iso-8859-1 4193 34 33_Re: Spamming the Ten Commandments13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Thu, 02 Oct 2003 17:52:52 -0400 4228 31 33_Re: Spamming the Ten Commandments0_15_DebALev@aol.com28_Thu, 2 Oct 2003 19:14:54 EDT423_US-ASCII In a message dated 10/2/2003 5:18:17 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rdsmith1957@msn.com writes: Alright, 5764, thanks, but what happened 5,764 years ago? As I vaguely recall, we needed a way to determine what year it was. (Try to imagine not having one!) Rabbis got together and counted backwards, trying to guesstimate things by stuff in the tanach.........counted generations and the like, back to the Creation. [...] 4260 95 19_Re: Singing Lessons14_Kleins Designs26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com30_Thu, 2 Oct 2003 18:38:56 -0700321_iso-8859-1

----- Original Message ----- From: richard smith To: habonet@shamash.org Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2003 1:33 PM Subject: Re: Singing Lessons



Steve,

Is this a cut at those of use who suffer from tone deafness (or as I like to say, melody challenged)?

Exactly. Shana Tova. 4356 35 33_Re: Spamming the Ten Commandments0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com28_Thu, 2 Oct 2003 22:47:37 EDT82_US-ASCII ...and I thought it was the beginning of Habonim camping!!!!!!......:)..s 4392 44 40_Re: narrow minded redux - the last word?0_15_Emabear@aol.com28_Fri, 3 Oct 2003 00:07:45 EDT27_US-ASCII Amen.

Ellen 4437 44 33_Re: Spamming the Ten Commandments0_15_Emabear@aol.com28_Fri, 3 Oct 2003 00:18:02 EDT38_US-ASCII The year is 5764

Ellen 4482 86 11_SHABBOS GOY14_Martin Goodman26_martinjgoodman@hotmail.com31_Fri, 03 Oct 2003 07:14:54 +0000445_- Shalom Noam,

You wrote, "" I'm curious how you square the egalitarian nature of Shabbat which is shared by all with the practice of employing a 'shabos goy'... ""

The most straight-forward interpretation of the 4th commandment [quoted below] is that non-Jews who live among Jews should also rest on Shabbat and that Jews should not make non-Jews work on Shabbat or benefit at all from the work that they perform on Shabbat. [...] 4569 24 15_RE: SHABBOS GOY12_Stopak, Noam20_NStopak@orionsci.com30_Fri, 3 Oct 2003 06:28:26 -0400708_iso-8859-1 Thank you Marty and Shanah Tovah, Metukah, u-Mutzlachat, and of course Shabbat Shalom to you too :-)

Noam



------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/

* * FREE JEWISH LEARNING * * Shamash invites you to join MyJewishLearning.com, a comprehensive, objective, authoritative and interactive learning resource in all areas of Judaism. Free membership via http://www.myjewishlearning.com/shamash ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 4594 121 15_Re: SHABBOS GOY14_Kleins Designs26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com30_Fri, 3 Oct 2003 09:07:30 -0700499_iso-8859-1 Guys

I remember this one very well. It is impotrtant to note that the donkey remained apikorus, put in his time, and attained his place (posthumously) in donkey heaven. There is more to the story, but that's where the Jewish part pretty much fades.

Steve

Shana Tova to everyone.



----- Original Message ----- From: "Martin Goodman" To: Sent: Friday, October 03, 2003 12:14 AM Subject: SHABBOS GOY [...] 4716 47 17_Anything but Bush0_13_SC523@aol.com31_Fri, 03 Oct 2003 13:31:47 -0400547_iso-8859-1 From Aliya: Dear Chevreh, I rarely read or post jokes, but, since I join Judy in the Anything but Bush club, I just had to send this to you - I know you will chuckle as you go into Shabbat(or for our Israeli readers a bit later): An airplane was about to crash; there were 5 passengers on board but only 4 parachutes. The first passenger said, " I'm Kobe Bryant, the best NBA basketball player, the Lakers need me, I can't afford to die....So he took the first pack and left the plane. The second passenger, Hillary Clinton, said, [...] 4764 73 16_Ilford Synagogue8_molieric25_molieric@netvision.net.il31_Sat, 04 Oct 2003 23:10:21 +0200206_windows-1255 Hi,

As I was looking for another site, I came across this program, which I have printed out. Perhaps, it will interest you.

Mollie

http://www.ilfordsynagogue.co.uk/isra.htm 4838 199 14_Habonim Beach?0_15_NEVETS2@aol.com28_Sun, 5 Oct 2003 00:52:37 EDT479_US-ASCII Chevre, Shana Tova

You find amazing things when you search the newsgroups of the internet for the keyword "Habonim"

Can anyone tell me where Habonim Beach is in Israel? And is there any connection between the Movement and the location?

Chaver Steve ============================================================ Search Result 22 From: SlotPerfec (slotperfec@aol.com ) Subject: Re: Skydiving in Israel ! Newsgroups: rec.skydiving Date: 1995/09/26 [...] 5038 96 5_opera16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Sun, 05 Oct 2003 01:12:46 -0400396_iso-8859-1 This evening, my wife and I attended the New York City Opera's performance of Bizet's Carmen with Israeli mezzo-soprano Hadar Halevy in the title role. It is well worth the ticket price should she be performing in a venue near any Habonet subscriber. Notwithstanding the the positive New York Times review about the NYC Opera performance with Halevy, she was outstanding tonight: [...] 5135 129 41_Women's protests spotlight Israel poverty0_15_DebALev@aol.com28_Sun, 5 Oct 2003 01:25:22 EDT633_US-ASCII Women's Protests Spotlight Israeli Poverty http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=ourWorldNews&storyID=35 58305

Sat October 4, 2003 03:56 PM ET By Allyn Fisher-Ilan

JERUSALEM (Reuters) - Vicky Knafo, a part-time cook and amateur poet from a remote desert town in southern Israel, is an unlikely hero.

But by walking 125 miles in the searing heat from her home to Jerusalem this summer and living in a tent near the Treasury building, she has drawn attention to a rise in poverty which some commentators think could be as big a danger for Israel as that posed by Palestinian suicide bombers. [...] 5265 204 17_Re: Habonim Beach13_pearl skolnik25_pskolnik@netvision.net.il31_Sun, 05 Oct 2003 08:15:06 +0200574_iso-8859-1 I used to live near Habonim beach (in moshav Kerem Maharal). The beach is located next to Moshav Habonim, which is about 1/2 an hour south of Haifa, about 10 km north of Faradis (an Arab village). (Faradis means "paradise," but it isn't). Moshav Habonim's members originally were from t'nuat Habonim, although I do not know if all of them were. There was a contingent of South African Habonim members, one of whom I recall came to Habonim in America as a visiting shaliach: Nibby Penn. Today, in Israel, when we hear the name Moshav Habonim, we think of and [...] 5470 35 17_Fw: Syrians-FUNNY13_pearl skolnik25_pskolnik@netvision.net.il31_Sun, 05 Oct 2003 08:40:24 +0200322_iso-8859-1 I am sure the translator took the first taxi, bus, train, boat or plane out of Syria. go to following link to see why! g'mar chatima tova and tzom kal to all. I ask m'chila and slicha from anyone I may have hurt or offended in any of my missives to Habonet. Sins of omission and commission included. pearl [...] 5506 57 17_Fw: Pop-Up Succah13_pearl skolnik25_pskolnik@netvision.net.il31_Sun, 05 Oct 2003 08:41:09 +0200174_iso-8859-1 Message

And now, the pop up succah, for the man on the go.

http://www.popupsukkah.com/

. . . and it only took 5764 years to come up with this. 5564 130 55_stopping child allowances, the Arab demography problem.13_pearl skolnik25_pskolnik@netvision.net.il31_Sun, 05 Oct 2003 10:07:23 +0200611_windows-1255 Re: problem of single mothers, Arab multi-births, and poor families: I would like to address a problem in Israel that we are all aware of and which is discussed here, but which does not get the notice it should:

The stopping of child allowances in Israel is long overdue. Although I totally feel for the families that are experiencing difficulty purchasing necessities, including food, the child allowances given by the government must end. If we want to encourage an increase in Jewish births, then it is the job of the Jewish Agency or some other organization to pay child allowances [...] 5695 71 17_Re: Habonim Beach0_14_Ohanka@aol.com28_Sun, 5 Oct 2003 09:27:48 EDT351_US-ASCII

In a message dated 10/5/03 2:14:40 AM, pskolnik@netvision.net.il writes:

<< I used to live near Habonim beach (in moshav Kerem Maharal). The beach is located next to Moshav Habonim, which is about 1/2 an hour south of Haifa, about 10 km north of Faradis (an Arab village).

(Faradis means "paradise," but it isn't). [...] 5767 78 9_Rachmones12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Sun, 05 Oct 2003 15:47:22 +0200603_us-ascii Haverim/ot If you don't hear from me it's because occasionally my computer comes down with a sneeze or a virus nebech; may it be inscribed for a sweet and healthy year. Today, wheezing and apoplectic it finally downloaded a 32 page Digest (number 2716.) The 10,000-some words were filled up with two lengthy forwards, (one of them re-sent because a server regarded it as an attachment. ) Then, many who responded to the originals included resends of the entire articles rather than just quoting the specific sentences or phrases they found pertinent to their response. To put it as kindly [...] 5846 130 32_Haifa tragedy hits close to home0_15_NEVETS2@aol.com28_Sun, 5 Oct 2003 13:58:32 EDT564_UTF-8

From: gmatz [mailto:gilmatz@kadarim.org.il] Sent: Sunday, October 05, 2003 11:49 AM To: 'matz' Subject: Sad Day



Gemar Hatima Tova,

First with the very sad news. Gadi Raviv from Yagur just wrote us an email telling us that 5 of the people who were murdered yesterday in Haifa, are his neighbors. These are the family Zer Aviv, the grandma, parents and two kids who are exactly same ages as Gadi's Daniel (she is 4) and Benjamin (2). They celebrated birthdays on Friday in Yagur, and yesterday, at the restaurant in Haifa… [...] 5977 55 21_FROM MANDATE TO STATE0_15_NEVETS2@aol.com28_Sun, 5 Oct 2003 14:00:20 EDT354_US-ASCII 16. Figler, Bernard. FROM MANDATE TO STATE. Montreal, 1951. 1st ed. Boards, 16mo. 112 pp. Fair: front hinge all but separated, else Very Good. The story of the Zionist Order Habonim . ..................$15.00



First Time I'd ever heard of this book. About American Habonim? Canadian Habonim? Some other country?

Chaver Steve 6033 123 25_Re: FROM MANDATE TO STATE13_moshe sheskin24_moshes7@netvision.net.il55_Sun, 05 Oct 2003 15:44:34 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time)390_iso-8859-1 Shalom Chaver Steve, As a former Montrealer, I am quite familiar with Bernard Figler. He was a member of HABONIM, the General Zionist Organization and had nothing to do with HABONIM, Labour Zionisit Movement. I didn't know if the book was still available. In fact, I don't even know if Habonim, of the General Zionist Organization is still in existence. G'mar Chatima Tova. [...] 6157 538 24_Arab - Jewish birthrates3_leo18_leodie@isdn.net.il30_Mon, 6 Oct 2003 11:24:58 +0200525_us-ascii Here is a factual comment on Pearl Skolnik's latest submission. The statistics below come from the official Israel Bureau of Statistics internet site.

The Jewish birthrate per 1000 averaged over the last ten years is 18.52. The Moslem birthrate per 1000 averaged over the last ten years is 37.3. The ratio of Moslem to Jewish is thus 2. The Moslem birthrate is not rising - it declined slightly. Pearl's submission implied a Moslem birthrate which is increasing steeply and has reached fantastic levels! [...] 6696 166 12_Rachmones II12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Mon, 06 Oct 2003 13:07:59 +0200597_us-ascii Haverot/im The Yiddish rachmones is derived from the Hebrew rachmanut = to take pity or have mercy. Ultimately, rachmanut springs from the three letter Hebrew root r*h*m which means womb. So when Pearl writes we want to encourage an increase in Jewish births, then it is the job of

>the Jewish Agency or some other organization to pay child allowances to >Jewish families, and not the government. >Right now the chief beneficiaries of child allowances are the Arabs. We >know of Arab men who have 65 to 85 children, since they still marry several >women. I was told about one [...] 6863 554 28_Re: Arab - Jewish birthrates13_pearl skolnik25_pskolnik@netvision.net.il31_Mon, 06 Oct 2003 22:15:14 +0200601_iso-8859-1 MessageMr.Diesendruck, what you write only strengthens what I wrote. I don't recall writing that the Moslem birthrate is increasing, but you confirm that the moslem birthrate is still more than double that of the Jewish community. It is known, however, that many Arabs still take more than one wife, often having as many as 4 simultaneously, and, as a result, these same families DO number 60-85 children, as has been documented. I do not see where your 'facts' negate my 'facts', they just strengthen the argument. The nurse that I mentioned in my letter also said that for the first [...] 7418 158 28_RE: Arab - Jewish birthrates28_Michal and Efraim Perlmutter24_habesor@netvision.net.il31_Tue, 07 Oct 2003 08:44:27 +0200640_iso-8859-1 MessageTo Leo, Amnon and Pearl,

Pearl has pointed to a problem that has been talked about for decades and that is the Arab birth rate and its effects on the Jewish-Arab demographic balance. I think that while Pearl has been astute at identifying the problem her comments were deficient when it came to a solution. Leo's statistics while being accurate, never-the-less somewhat artificially reduced the dimensions of the actual situation because as Pearl accurately pointed out, while the statistics relate to the number of births per mother, because they don't take into account men with multiple wives, they tend to [...] 7577 722 34_Plus ca change, plus la meme chose13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il30_Tue, 7 Oct 2003 16:04:34 +0200660_windows-1255 THE STRATFOR WEEKLY 06 October 2003

by Dr. George Friedman

The Dangers of Overconfidence

Summary

The 1973 Arab-Israeli War redefined the Arab-Israeli conflict, the shape of the Arab world and the international economic order -- given that the war triggered the Arab oil embargo. It was a significant event in 20th century history. Its origins were in Israel's victory in 1967 and its overconfidence about its ability to read the Arab mind. Like the Sept. 11 attacks, Oct. 6, 1973, began as a massive intelligence failure. Moreover, the Israeli intelligence failure shaped Arab thinking about the nature of war and [...] 8300 69 56_Fw: House concert in Portland, Sunday, October 12th, 7PM15_Brian S. Cooper21_brian@cooperspace.net31_Tue, 07 Oct 2003 13:37:31 -0400582_iso-8859-1 >From Albert Kaufman...

> > Dear Friends, > > Finally, another House Concert! > > The house has been named ("Koru") and blessed. Now we open the doors to a talented friend: > > Art and Sharon's house is happy to welcome Albert Kaufman here for a > concert/songfest on Sunday, October 12th. 7pm performance. > Please come fragrance-free (no pefumes or scented products of any kind) THANKS! > > Albert's music is fun, inspiring, fun, rockin, fun, silly, fun, soothing, > loving, and did I say fun? He plays the guitar beautifully, and we all sing > along, kind [...] 8370 183 64_Fwd: [Zepps_News] #Arafat has suffered heart attack, admits aide0_15_DebALev@aol.com28_Tue, 7 Oct 2003 22:02:25 EDT172_US-ASCII This report is fwiw. The Guardian has an anti-Israel bias, generally speaking, and I don't really know if that makes this news more or less credible.

Debbie 8554 59 37_Breakup of Religious Affairs Ministry16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Wed, 08 Oct 2003 13:07:22 -0400682_us-ascii The following news item appeared today on Israeline, the internet news headline service of Israel's New York consulate.

**Cabinet Approves Breakup of Religious Affairs Ministry

The Israeli Cabinet approved on Tuesday the breakup of the Religious Affairs Ministry and transferred the authority for the rabbinical courts to the Justice Ministry, HA'ARETZ reported. The decision was accepted with a majority of 18 -3. Ministers Avigdor Lieberman, Benny Elon and Uzi Landau opposed it and the National Religious Party has also threatened to quit the coalition over the changes. According to the plan, the Religious Affairs Ministry will be dissembled by the [...] 8614 186 74_=?UNKNOWN?Q?Yesterday=92s?= Sukkot and =?UNKNOWN?Q?Today=92s?= Tent Cities12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Sat, 11 Oct 2003 21:18:34 +0200605_iso-8859-1 Haverim/ot

Like a snatch of melody that resurges uninvited even unexpected, there are theories and notions learned long ago that pop up like advertising banners in a web site. I remember one of these dimly, (maybe imperfectly) from my studies at the Oranim teachers' seminar it is the phylogenetic theory. My unsophisticated recall is that the stages in an embryo's growth are a rehearsal of stages in the genetic development from tadpole-like organisms to humans also that when we wake from a dream of falling it is a replay of the ancient memory of our primitive past as apes and [...] 8801 46 39_regarding avi liberman's tour in israel0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Sun, 12 Oct 2003 12:48:54 EDT501_US-ASCII hi and chag sameach!!!!!!!!!!--i have a small request--anyone who saw avi and the comedians- could you email me a short letter about how you felt....we are trying to make this a bi-annual event- -so we are putting a package together...and we would like some "testimonials"--thanks----( my left shift key isn't working and it is very annoying!!!!!!!!!!!!!.....)....he already has a great list of great and seasoned comedians who want to come and help bring some laughter to Israel.....love sue 8848 56 16_Habonet messages12_Doug Greener25_ddwgreen@netvision.net.il31_Mon, 13 Oct 2003 08:58:37 +0200312_iso-8859-1 Hi guys,

I have gotten only two (2!) messages from Habonet in the last four days!!! I can't believe all the regulars have gone away for Sukkot? Is anything happening to the list? (And just when I have time to plow through all the pithy listings!)

Chag Sameach and Moadim l'simcha , Trudy 8905 302 63_=?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Yesterday's_Sukkot_and_Today's_Tent_Cities?=14_Kleins Designs26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Mon, 13 Oct 2003 10:00:00 -0700422_iso-8859-1 Amnon

Good to hear from you again.

The first one is "Ontogeny (sp?) recapitulates phylogeny". I might have it backwards.

The second is the theory of Archetypes.

The piece you gave us gives no peace.

Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: Amnon Hadary To: Habonet@shamash.org Sent: Saturday, October 11, 2003 12:18 PM Subject: Yesterday's Sukkot and Today's Tent Cities [...] 9208 66 26_Re: Again, Pasted in/books14_Jamie Beaumont24_jamie_beaumont@yahoo.com37_Mon, 13 Oct 2003 11:28:47 -0700 (PDT)549_us-ascii Hi Jon et al, I read all the Patrick O'Brian's Aubrey/Maturin books a few years back, in order. I have his biography but haven't read it yet. If I like an author I try to read all their books. What are you reading lately? I just finished "Balzac and the Little Chinese Seamstress" by Dai Sijie; a book about two city boys sent to a remote mountain village for reeducation during the Chinese Cultural Revolution. I had heard a lot of positive reviews of this book. It was like looking through a window into a different world. I want to [...] 9275 45 46_Re: Yesterday's Sukkot and Today's Tent Cities0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Mon, 13 Oct 2003 15:39:48 EDT595_US-ASCII

In a message dated 10/13/03 10:00:56 AM, kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com writes:

<< Change a few details, issue Bibi a membership card in the Republican Party and Israel can become the next state of the United States a country I feel some you are as distressed about as I am about Israel. >>

Born out of a desire for religious freedon, and yet also out of the oppression of the "natives"- America has become, in its short 250-some-odd years an amazing place. While there are many problems and negatives one can spout, I have to step in and- in my usual naive way- [...] 9321 81 26_Re: Again, Pasted in/books13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il31_Mon, 13 Oct 2003 21:53:01 +0200621_iso-8859-1 Hey Jamie.

The Aubrey/Maturin books are a fairly new - and much appreciated - discovery of mine. I have to admit that my taste in fiction is pretty low-brow. When it comes to novels, I tend towards historical, science-fiction and thrillers. Non-fiction is another matter. I just finished David Glantz's "Zhukov's Greatest Defeat: The Red Army's Epic Disaster in Operation Mars, 1942". I wouldn't recommend this book to anyone unless they were seriously interested in the Eastern Front in WWII. Better to wait for the movie. I can guess at the differences, but I'd be interested in knowing what the [...] 9403 548 111_=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Galil=20Tribute=20Dinner=2010/25=A0=20Reservation?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=20and=20Journal=20Reminder?=0_15_NEVETS2@aol.com29_Mon, 13 Oct 2003 18:35:44 EDT360_ISO-8859-1 Dear Galil alumni, parents and friends

Shalom and Chag Sameach.

We're writing to remind you about the upcoming gala Tribute Dinner honoring Hank Albert who is retiring from a hugely successful 18 years of service as Galil's Registrar. The dinner is Saturday evening, October 25th, at the Germantown Jewish Centre in Philadelphia. [...] 9952 71 12_Antisemitism14_Kleins Designs26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Mon, 13 Oct 2003 16:37:08 -0700529_iso-8859-1 I just got done reading an article by Daniel Levitas, in the Fall issue of "Reform Judaism". The article was entitled "Understanding the Unexpected". Several theories of antisemitism in America were interconnected, and I have some of my own thoughts on the matter to add at a later date. The issue is a worthy one to get ahold of, and I'd recommend hunting it down. Same issue- An article about some of the Israeli soldiers that refuse to serve. I found the response to that article well written and clearly presented. 10024 191 22_Israel: Next US state?11_Phil Safier17_psafier@elixa.com31_Mon, 13 Oct 2003 16:41:08 -0600 10216 239 42_Anti-Americanism Too Much of a Good Thing?11_Phil Safier17_psafier@elixa.com31_Mon, 13 Oct 2003 21:56:40 -0600764_us-ascii http://counterpunch.org/neumann09132003.html September 13, 2003 Anti-Americanism Too Much of a Good Thing?

By MICHAEL NEUMANN

Many people throughout the world--leftists, Islamicists, and nationalists--are far too anti-American.

It's not that they're wrong. Any impression to the contrary comes from pitching anti-Americanism as the main event in a Clash of Civilizations, jihad versus big mac, Floridian democracy and tight-fittin' jeans. Anti-Americanism has more to do with taking the US to be a grownup democratic nation, one fully responsible for its 'mistakes' and 'collateral damage'. These include its genocide-for-dummies 'blunder' in Vietnam, and its support for our friends: dozens of satanically brutal Latin American [...] 10456 44 16_Anti-Americanism16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Tue, 14 Oct 2003 03:46:54 -0400679_us-ascii The Michael Neumann diatribe posted by Phil Safier has too much screed and polemic to be taken too seriously. Bush notwithstanding, let me see if I get Neumann's gist: US policy towards whatever--though Israel seems to be Neumann's bete noir--is self-centered, amoral and without any sense of right or accountability. Worse, American policymakers know what is right but are constrained from doing the right thing because of--what?--lobbyists. Seems to me Neumann is the loony left's answer to the '50's MacCarthyists who always feared communists and homosexuals under their bedsprings. Which, happily, probably makes it hard for anyone in this "information-sodden" [...] 10501 60 26_Re: Israel: Next US state?13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il31_Tue, 14 Oct 2003 11:21:50 +0200409_iso-8859-1 Just so I understand you Phil, what you're basically proposing here is that the State of Israel should be dismantled and destroyed in order to help the United States and save her taxpayers money.

The only consistency we have in Neuman's rather silly and unorganized essay is that no matter what happens and which party is in control in Washington, when things go wrong, it's the Jew's fault. 10562 927 46_Re: Anti-Americanism Too Much of a Good Thing?13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Tue, 14 Oct 2003 07:23:26 -0400665_us-ascii So, Phil--who are you supporting for president this time? Judy

Phil Safier wrote:

> http://counterpunch.org/neumann09132003.html > September 13, 2003 > Anti-Americanism > Too Much of a Good Thing? > > By MICHAEL NEUMANN > > Many people throughout the world--leftists, Islamicists, and > nationalists--are far too anti-American. > > It's not that they're wrong. Any impression to the contrary comes from > pitching anti-Americanism as the main event in a Clash of Civilizations, > jihad versus big mac, Floridian democracy and tight-fittin' jeans. > Anti-Americanism has more to do with taking the US to be a grownup > democratic nation, [...] 11490 67 8_A smiler12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Tue, 14 Oct 2003 18:11:30 +0200340_us-ascii Haverot/im Though a bit late, I just received this by e-mail from Yehuda Reimer in Urim and wanted to share. It offers a fresh take on an otherwise dismal new year.





----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, October 13, 2003 3:39 PM Subject: Shana Tova

Call your kids. Open your loudspeakers !!! [...] 11558 514 46_Re: Anti-Americanism Too Much of a Good Thing?13_pearl skolnik25_pskolnik@netvision.net.il31_Tue, 14 Oct 2003 21:03:34 +0200401_iso-8859-1 the article proves that there is no one more ignorant and naive than the professor harangueing on a topic outside his field of expertise. ----- Original Message ----- From: Judith Gelman To: habonet@shamash.org Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2003 1:23 PM Subject: Re: Anti-Americanism Too Much of a Good Thing?



So, Phil--who are you supporting for president this time? Judy [...] 12073 558 46_Re: Anti-Americanism Too Much of a Good Thing?8_molieric25_molieric@netvision.net.il31_Tue, 14 Oct 2003 21:50:30 +0200460_ISO-8859-1 Dear Pearl,

What don't you agree with? Mr. Safier's chilling observations about how America could make itself appear stronger and less vulnerable in the eyes of it's current opponents by betraying Israel in the name of self-interest?

Mollie Marx



----- Original Message ----- From: pearl skolnik To: habonet@shamash.org Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2003 9:03 PM Subject: Re: Anti-Americanism Too Much of a Good Thing? [...] 12632 65 46_Re: Anti-Americanism Too Much of a Good Thing?0_13_Mmxmm@aol.com29_Tue, 14 Oct 2003 16:00:09 EDT481_US-ASCII Pear,

Whether or not you agree with this article are you really saying that only 'experts' in a given field are qualified to express an opinion? I certainly hope that's not the case.

marc margolis

ps for the record at a first cursory reading of this article much of what he has to say resonates with my own views. the article proves that there is no one more ignorant and naive than the professor harangueing on a topic outside his field of expertise. 12698 123 12_Re: A smiler14_Kleins Designs26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Tue, 14 Oct 2003 14:13:35 -0700516_iso-8859-1 Amnon

Thanks for this wonderful new Year's gift! It is truly beautiful, uplifting and brimming with the innocence I hope we all remember.

Shana Tova!

Steve (and Marcia) ----- Original Message ----- From: Amnon Hadary To: Habonet@shamash.org Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2003 9:11 AM Subject: A smiler



Haverot/im Though a bit late, I just received this by e-mail from Yehuda Reimer in Urim and wanted to share. It offers a fresh take on an otherwise dismal new year. [...] 12822 109 18_M. Neumann's Piece14_Kleins Designs26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Tue, 14 Oct 2003 14:53:28 -0700530_iso-8859-1 I apologise for adding nothing to the mix in re-stating the obvious: that both Mr. Neumann and his article are pathetic. For starters: what possible motivation could he even have for unearthing the Vietnam issue? Sheer malice? An uncontrollable penchant for divisiveness? For God's sake! The Vietnam war has been over for a quarter of a century! People have forgiven each other and gone on! The healing here and in Vietnam has taken place fuller than any possible expectation. Dig it up again? What tastelessness! [...] 12932 91 26_Re: Again, Pasted in/books14_Jamie Beaumont24_jamie_beaumont@yahoo.com37_Tue, 14 Oct 2003 20:39:15 -0700 (PDT)574_us-ascii Hi Jon, I love historical fiction, sci.fi. and lately some contemp. fiction. No thrillers for me. I am too impressionable, I would have nightmares. I can't watch scary movies either. I like nonfiction here and there. I read a few American history books this past year as I hadn't paid much attention in highschool. I was especially interested in the writing of the constitution. Still the madrich, you have given me a homework assignment. Actually, I don't think you were ever my madrich. Well, if I was a computer whiz I would do up a Venn diagram for you to [...] 13024 37 26_Re: Again, Pasted in/books0_15_DebALev@aol.com29_Tue, 14 Oct 2003 23:51:08 EDT325_US-ASCII I'm just going to jump in here. There are a bunch of people who have seen those parallels. One is Gordon Bronitsky,; I think he lives in CO now. Gordon has been working for years with this; the last time I heard from him, he was putting together a music performance featuring both Jewish and Native performers. [...] 13062 94 46_Re: Anti-Americanism Too Much of a Good Thing?13_richard smith19_rdsmith1957@msn.com31_Wed, 15 Oct 2003 00:17:46 -0400624_iso-8859-1 Mollie said:

"Mr. Safier's chilling observations about how America could make itself appear stronger and less vulnerable in the eyes of it's current opponents by betraying Israel in the name of self-interest?"

Please don't misunderstand me, I would not support the U.S. freezing aid to Israel, but in exactly what way would it be a betrayal? All countries, at all times, have foreign policy based on what they think is their self-interest. If freezing its support of Israel was in the U.S. self-interest, or, more to the point, if a significant number of Americans believed a freeze in aid was [...] 13157 188 46_RE: Anti-Americanism Too Much of a Good Thing?0_25_batel_libes@earthlink.net31_Tue, 14 Oct 2003 22:19:18 -0700396_iso-8859-1

Richard wrote: Alliances between nations never last forever, they only last until it is no longer in a country's best interest. It may not be pretty, but it is so.

Unfortunately, it is precisely this sort of short-term policy that led the U.S. to support some of the worse regimes in recent history, with some of these old friends becoming more recent enemies. [...] 13346 450 11_Interesting0_13_SC523@aol.com29_Wed, 15 Oct 2003 03:05:25 EDT545_ISO-8859-1 Here is some info that I hadn't heard before - thought you would find it interesting:

Looking Forward: The Investment Potential in Israel > > By Leonard Rosen > Managing Director > Lehman Brothers > > Good evening. My name is Len Rosen , and I'm a Managing Director at > Lehman Brothers in our investment banking unit. There I have a few roles: I am > head of our Israel business, and Lehman Brothers has for a long time > been the predominant investment bank in Israel , and I am also a technology > industry banker. > > [...] 13797 44 29_The Return of The Zionit Idea0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Wed, 15 Oct 2003 03:27:18 EDT402_US-ASCII Harper is publishing two new books by Arthur Hertzberg- A Jew in America, and The Fate of Zionism; anyone have any opinions or comments...Nostalgia brings back memories of long hours reading TZI in camp and on workshop as a our main reference....According to the reviews and summaries we have gotten in our office- The Fate of Zionism sounds like something the UN should use as a textbook--sue 13842 110 8_Betrayal14_Kleins Designs26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Wed, 15 Oct 2003 08:45:20 -0700366_iso-8859-1 On the cold, hard subject of what exactly constitutes a definition of "betrayal". Some go with the strict definition, thinking that if there is no stated commitment, or nothing laid out in definable and specific,written terms, then any action would not really, really be a betrayal.

Internment of the Japanese in World War II- not a betrayal. [...] 13953 103 18_Gaza Refugees 197112_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Wed, 15 Oct 2003 18:38:08 +0200398_us-ascii Rafiah "As far as I'm concerned, if they find a tunnel under somebody's house, they can bury them in it, but how is this our fault? I used to say that anyone who listened to suicide bombers was crazy, but after what happened here, I say that every Jew, wherever he is, all the Israelis, are to blame for what happened here," Jamal Yussuf declared yesterday. Haaretz October 14, 2003. [...] 14057 71 26_Re: Israel: Next US state?11_Phil Safier17_psafier@elixa.com31_Wed, 15 Oct 2003 11:11:31 -0600 14129 45 46_BBC E-mail: Writer explains his Mid-East hopes11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org31_Wed, 15 Oct 2003 17:11:41 +0000516_iso-8859-1 Roz Barland saw this story on BBC News Online and thought you should see it.





** Writer explains his Mid-East hopes ** Israeli writer Amos Oz tells the BBC that the new "alternative" Middle East peace deal is the most comprehensive ever devised. < http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/em/fr/-/2/hi/middle_east/3188614.stm >



** BBC Daily E-mail ** Choose the news and sport headlines you want - when you want them, all in one daily e-mail < http://www.bbc.co.uk/dailyemail/ > [...] 14175 73 20_Re: Anti-Americanism11_Phil Safier17_psafier@elixa.com31_Wed, 15 Oct 2003 11:48:41 -0600635_us-ascii Apparently reading Neumann's "screed" causes people so much discomfort that they cannot focus on the words in front of them. Powerful writing from the "loony left."

According to Elihu, "Neumann also probably thinks that the 3000 people who died at the World Trade Center deserved to do so." In fact, he wrote, "Anti-Americanism is a political stance which implies political action. As such, it must have some reasonable prospect of being effective. If not, it is wrong: a truly tragic misdirection of effort for which many innocent people will suffer, just as they suffer in the aftermath of that quintessentially [...] 14249 137 22_Re: M. Neumann's Piece11_Phil Safier17_psafier@elixa.com31_Wed, 15 Oct 2003 12:06:48 -0600 14387 27 26_Re: Israel: Next US state?0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Wed, 15 Oct 2003 14:24:25 EDT774_US-ASCII

In a message dated 10/15/03 10:07:00 AM, psafier@elixa.com writes:

<< We will also see increasing hostility toward Americans and Jews. >>

This is nothing new........s

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/

* * FREE JEWISH LEARNING * * Shamash invites you to join MyJewishLearning.com, a comprehensive, objective, authoritative and interactive learning resource in all areas of Judaism. Free membership via http://www.myjewishlearning.com/shamash ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 14415 79 26_Re: Israel: Next US state?13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il31_Wed, 15 Oct 2003 20:19:58 +0200629_iso-8859-1 Phil, the fact is that the world has always been a "bad neighborhood". Even before the Bush administration.

As for "serious consideration" of the "end of the Zionist experiment", this is certainly a solution which will warm the cockles of every Islamic crazy and loony-left academic's heart. Since you asked me to address this issue I will: forget about it. We're not going anywhere. We here will continue to defend ourselves and, yes, fight to maintain our freedom and independence, no matter how much it inconveniences the Americans, the French, the Arabs, the Palestinians, the UN, and even the Berkley [...] 14495 144 12_Re: Betrayal13_richard smith19_rdsmith1957@msn.com31_Wed, 15 Oct 2003 15:51:18 -0400387_iso-8859-1 Steve said:

"Some go with the strict definition, thinking that if there is no stated commitment, or nothing laid out in definable and specific,written terms, then any action would not really, really be a betrayal.

"Internment of the Japanese in World War II- not a betrayal.

"McCarthy, House on Un-American Activities and Elia Kazan- not a betrayal. [...] 14640 66 22_An open letter to Phil0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com29_Wed, 15 Oct 2003 15:48:30 EDT561_US-ASCII Dear Phil

I think many Americans have contrition for what happenned in Viet Nam. Most I know opposed that war. I suspect that few Americans yourself included have any clue what is happenning today in Baku and why we should be concerned or what is happenning in La Paz. Phil, you seem to me to be the prototype of the oblivious American. Suppose you give us your opinion of today's election in Azeberjan and where you stand on the the matter. I am also curious about your specific comments on the crisis is in Bolivia. I suspect you have no [...] 14707 73 20_Re: Anti-Americanism13_richard smith19_rdsmith1957@msn.com31_Wed, 15 Oct 2003 15:58:37 -0400437_iso-8859-1 Phil stated, "Did our analysis of the fascistic tendencies of capitalism as exemplified by much of US history get blown away by some new facts?"

I am very bothered by the use of the term fascist used to describe U.S. policy. The only U.S. policy which I think could rightfully be associated with something as extreme as fascist would be racial slavery which the U.S. ended by way of our own bloodiest war 143 years ago. 14781 353 22_Re: M. Neumann's Piece14_Kleins Designs26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Wed, 15 Oct 2003 14:08:23 -0700563_iso-8859-1 Dear Phil

I never said forget the LESSONS of Vietnam. That would be dumb. For years, I was active against the war. My wife and I also spent years helping heal the wounds in this country, working with Vets at the Wall in Washington DC twice a year, and here in L.A., at the Veterans' Administration. The Los Angeles Federal Building has a permanent exhibit of my work which is used to teach the lessons to schoolchildren coming there to see it on a regular basis. If you wish, you can stop insulting the intelligence of those that don't see [...] 15135 238 12_RE: A smiler6_Kathee26_holycowfoods@earthlink.net31_Wed, 15 Oct 2003 18:48:23 -0700320_us-ascii Yikes! Wonderful song, but it's taken over my sound system and goes round and round..how do I get it to stop, any technophiles out there with an idea? I'm not even sure through what faculty it is playing on my computer. Help, I 'd like to listen to something else..does anyone know the name of the singer? [...] 15374 108 22_RE: M. Neumann's Piece12_Stopak, Noam20_NStopak@orionsci.com31_Wed, 15 Oct 2003 21:54:14 -0400416_- The holocaust was over for more than a half century. Are you suggesting we should forget? Or is it only the suffering of others forgettable? I don't apologize for asking the obvious.

Yours in tastelessness,

Noam

-----Original Message----- From: Kleins Designs [mailto:kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2003 4:53 PM To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: M. Neumann's Piece [...] 15483 167 5_Yikes12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Thu, 16 Oct 2003 07:13:54 +0200675_iso-8859-1 Kathee Shalom, You asked





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Yikes! Wonderful song, but it's taken over my sound system and goes round and round.how do I get it to stop, any technophiles out there with an idea? I'm not even sure through what faculty it is playing on my computer. Help, I'd like to listen to something else.does anyone know the name of the singer? [...] 15651 42 22_Re: Gaza Refugees 197114_Martin Goodman26_martinjgoodman@hotmail.com31_Thu, 16 Oct 2003 05:37:31 +0000436_- Shalom Amnon:

The peace song by Nathan Zach which you quoted in your Gaza Refugees 1971 posting seems to refer to the following passage (Deuteronomy 20:19-20).

19 When you lay siege to a city for a long time, fighting against it to capture it, do not destroy its trees by putting an ax to them, because you can eat their fruit. Do not cut them down. Are the trees of the field people, that you should besiege them? [...] 15694 48 9_Re: Yikes13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il31_Thu, 16 Oct 2003 07:43:14 +020051_iso-8859-1 Amnon, try re-booting. Best of luck, Jon 15743 93 27_Re: Israel, Next U.S. State14_Martin Goodman26_martinjgoodman@hotmail.com31_Thu, 16 Oct 2003 06:15:37 +0000527_- Shalom Phil:

In a posting to Jon Baum, you wrote,

"" ... How would geopolitical tensions look if Israel did not exist? Would the United States face threats from those determined to retaliate for our support for Israel? ... ""

I will venture a simplistic answer to this question.

If Israel did not exist, Arab and Moslem countries of the Middle East would likely still be antagonistic towards the U.S. because of the U.S.'s efforts, overt and covert, to obtain petroleum from these countries. [...] 15837 66 12_Re: A Smiler14_Martin Goodman26_martinjgoodman@hotmail.com31_Thu, 16 Oct 2003 06:33:20 +0000513_- Shalom Kathee,

The website of the song provided by Yehuda Reimer via Amnon includes buttons that may be clicked to stop, pause, and replay the song. Also, the name of the song's author is provided at the end of the song.

I agree with you that the song is a gem. Perhaps madrichim at Habonim machanot should teach it to their chanichim? I am enclosing the song lyrics in Hebrew. Those of you with computers that are set up for Hebrew, please tell me if the Hebrew characters display properly. [...] 15904 180 34_Fascism (was Re: Anti-Americanism)11_Phil Safier17_psafier@elixa.com31_Thu, 16 Oct 2003 07:45:34 -0600 16085 46 7_To Phil0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com29_Thu, 16 Oct 2003 11:04:31 EDT164_US-ASCII Dear Phil.

I see you have still not chosen to comment on the elections in Azeberjan. They have caused quite a stir. Any thoughts.



Sam 16132 142 12_RE: Betrayal12_Stopak, Noam20_NStopak@orionsci.com31_Thu, 16 Oct 2003 11:37:34 -0400423_- What possible motivation could Mr. Klein have for unearthing these issues? Sheer malice? An uncontrollable penchant for divisiveness? For God's sake all of these examples occurred more than half a century ago! Haven't people moved on? Dig it up again? What tatelessness.

Is there hypocracy at work here or am I slowly going crazy? Thank you Richard for pointing out that all of these examples miss the point. [...] 16275 200 9_RE: Yikes6_Kathee26_holycowfoods@earthlink.net31_Thu, 16 Oct 2003 08:45:09 -0700294_iso-8859-1 Thanks guys, I got it.

-----Original Message----- From: owner-habonet@shamash.org [mailto:owner-habonet@shamash.org]On Behalf Of Jonathan Baum Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2003 10:43 PM To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: Re: Yikes

Amnon, try re-booting. Best of luck, Jon 16476 437 83_=?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Galil_Tribute_Dinner_10/25=A0_Reservation?= and Journal Reminder12_Jennifer Kay19_kay@elvis.rowan.edu31_Thu, 16 Oct 2003 12:47:48 -0400612_us-ascii Hi Steve,

Well, I emailed around, and can't find anyone else who's willing to donate, so I'll send you guys a check on my own (just a modest donation, not for the ad book.) Good luck!

-- Jennie

At 06:35 PM 10/13/2003 -0400, you wrote: >Dear Galil alumni, parents and friends > >Shalom and Chag Sameach. > >We're writing to remind you about the upcoming gala Tribute Dinner >honoring Hank Albert who is retiring from a hugely successful 18 years of >service as Galil's Registrar. The dinner is Saturday evening, October >25th, at the Germantown Jewish Centre in Philadelphia. > [...] 16914 219 20_Becoming More Jewish0_15_NEVETS2@aol.com29_Fri, 17 Oct 2003 03:21:00 EDT740_US-ASCII Memo to Dick Gephardt Re: Becoming more Jewish. By Steve Waldman

==========================================================



To: Dick Gephardt From: Tucker Carter, political consultant Re: Becoming More Jewish

Dick, the recent revelations that most of the Democratic candidates have Jewish roots requires us to take swift action. Just to review the recent news:

Howard Dean's wife and kids are Jewish, Dennis Kucinich keeps kosher (because of his Jewish girlfriend), General Wesley Clark comes from a line of rabbis in Minsk, Hillary Clinton's grandmother married someone named Max Rosenberg, and John Kerry, of all people, learned that both his paternal grandparents were Jewish (Kerry was [...] 17134 74 7_Amos Oz3_leo18_leodie@isdn.net.il31_Fri, 17 Oct 2003 13:08:22 +0200312_us-ascii I believe the Israeli writer Amos Oz made a statement concerning the "Geneva Meetings" recently. I can't located it. Can anyone send my the url for it (either English or Hebrew).

Prof. L. Diesendruck Petach Tikva Rd. 7/408 Netanya, 42461 Israel phone: 011 971 9 860 1878 email: leodie@isdn.net.il 17209 115 11_Re: Amos Oz11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org31_Fri, 17 Oct 2003 07:29:49 -0500407_us-ascii I sent it from the BBC England. It was sent from the BBC. If you want it again here it is: Rozzie Writer explains his Mid-East hopes

By Marcelo Starobinas BBC Brasil



The Israeli writer Amos Oz has stated that the peace proposal finalised this weekend between Israel's opposition and Palestinian politicians is the most "comprehensive and detailed" that has ever existed. [...] 17325 652 11_Re: Amos Oz9_R. Shultz18_lzac@securenet.net31_Fri, 17 Oct 2003 09:25:47 -0400363_iso-8859-1 Message'We have done the gruntwork of peace' After two years of secret talks, a group of prominent Israeli leftists and Palestinian leaders this week unveiled what they claim is a blueprint for Middle-Eastern peace. Israeli novelist Amos Oz, who was one of them, explains how the negotiators finally tackled the 'radioactive core' of the conflict [...] 17978 165 40_The Poisoned Well/ Fouad Ajami/ NY Times11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org31_Fri, 17 Oct 2003 08:50:21 -0500391_ISO-8859-1

October 17, 2003 OP-ED CONTRIBUTOR The Poisoned Well By FOUAD AJAMI

It was not so much the guns of Oct. 6, 1973, and the assault of the Egyptian and Syrian armies against Israel, that changed contemporary history and remade our world. It was the use 11 days later of the "oil weapon," and the price increases that followed, which tipped the scales of history. [...] 18144 34 7_kibbutz16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Fri, 17 Oct 2003 10:00:48 -0400431_us-ascii The new book on the Israeli kibbbutz movement, written by Jo-Ann Mort and Gary Brenner--see below--is now available. It can be purchased at powells books (a union shop bookstore in Portland, Or.)- go thru the link here: http://www.labourstart.org/powells.shtml and perhaps your local bookstore.

Also, a special event is being organized by the The Jewish Community Center of Manhattan on Wednesday, November 5. [...] 18179 34 11_Re: kibbutz0_14_Gezer2@aol.com29_Fri, 17 Oct 2003 11:07:14 EDT52_US-ASCII This book can also be ordered at Amazon.com 18214 20 73_AN explanation by the Israeli government on the need for a security fence11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org31_Fri, 17 Oct 2003 15:48:55 -0500622_us-ascii http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/fence.html

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/

* * FREE JEWISH LEARNING * * Shamash invites you to join MyJewishLearning.com, a comprehensive, objective, authoritative and interactive learning resource in all areas of Judaism. Free membership via http://www.myjewishlearning.com/shamash ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 18235 55 77_Re: AN explanation by the Israeli government on the need for a security fence13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Fri, 17 Oct 2003 18:09:31 -0400131_us-ascii Thank you. Very interesting. Of course it doesn't explain why Ariel and Kedumim need to be in the fence... Judy

> > 18291 109 38_An Alternative To The Geneva Agreement14_Martin Goodman26_martinjgoodman@hotmail.com31_Fri, 17 Oct 2003 22:10:53 +0000388_- The "Geneva Agreement" between Israeli and Palestinian delegates is causing a significant amount of controversy in Israel and in Arab quarters.

Many Right-wing Israelis characterize the actions of Mitzna, Beilin, and the other Israeli delegates who negotiated the Geneva Agreement to be subversive because they undercut the authority of Israel's legally elected government. [...] 18401 93 11_Re: kibbutz12_Esther Cohen22_richard.steacy@gte.net31_Fri, 17 Oct 2003 19:42:15 -0400288_iso-8859-1 and (gasp!) at local bookstores - Olsson's in DC should have it, for instance. (OK, in fairness, i haven't gone to the store yet to look for it - i checked their website and found it there, so even if it's not on the shelf, they should be able to order it into the store) [...] 18495 30 42_Re: An Alternative to the Geneva Agreement14_Martin Goodman26_martinjgoodman@hotmail.com31_Sat, 18 Oct 2003 07:05:55 +0000285_- There was a typo in my previous posting. It should have read as follows:

One alternative that I have been mulling over for a while is for Israel to return the Gaza Strip territory to Egypt and the West Bank territory to JORDAN, as if the Six Day War had not happened.... [...] 18526 96 26_Re: Israel: Next US state?0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Sat, 18 Oct 2003 09:25:04 EDT377_US-ASCII Hi, All

I'm behind in my reading. The campaign to become judge goes (can I say it) well.

This article/book is a crock. the neocon Jews are the dupes. The religious right considers greater Israel its manifest destiny. The neocon Jews (smug assholes) think they are opportunists, but as we all know are prodding the US and Israel down the wrong path. [...] 18623 60 12_Kibbutz book16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Sat, 18 Oct 2003 13:06:58 -0400401_us-ascii Jack Bershtel writes that

> ----- Original Message ----- > From: Gezer2@aol.com > To: habonet@shamash.org > Sent: Friday, October 17, 2003 11:07 AM > Subject: Re: kibbutz > > This book can also be ordered at Amazon.com > The reason I suggested Powells Books instead of Amazon is because Amazon is anti-union, and Powell's Books is a union shop. http://www.labourstart.org/powells.shtml 18684 1137 101_Powell's Books - Our Hearts Invented a Place: Can Kibbutzim Survive in Today's Israel? by Jo Ann Mort16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Sat, 18 Oct 2003 13:09:12 -040076_us-ascii

http://www.powells.com/cgi-bin/biblio?inkey=17-0801439302-0 19822 125 42_Re: An Alternative to the Geneva Agreement13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Sat, 18 Oct 2003 14:32:49 -0400406_us-ascii Dear Marty,

You have written this before. But neither Egypt nor Jordan want them back. Note that they are the countries who have made peace with Israel the way things are. It is my understanding that Israel would have been happy to hand over the Gaza strip with the Sinai but the price of peace from Egypt was that Egypt wouldn't take it back. You proposal isn't going to go anywhere. [...] 19948 76 44_Heads up on anti-Israel event at UB Berkeley11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org31_Sat, 18 Oct 2003 17:40:28 -0500511_us-ascii COUNTERPUNCH EVENT AT UC BERKELEY!

"THE POLITICS OF ANTI-SEMITISM"



SUNDAY, OCTOBER 19, 7:00 PM

A PANEL PRESENTATION:

"IS ANTI-ZIONISM ANTI-SEMITIC?"



A Stellar Panel on CounterPunch's Hot New Book: "The Politics of Anti-Semitism"



"A" LIST SPEAKERS INCLUDE:

* ALEXANDER COCKBURN -- Author; Editor of Counterpunch Political Journal

* JEFFREY BLANKFORT -- Middle East Labor Bulletin, independent photo & radio journalist [...] 20025 89 17_a day to remember13_pearl skolnik25_pskolnik@netvision.net.il31_Sun, 19 Oct 2003 00:44:47 +0200550_windows-1255 I shall not easily forget the simchat torah celebration in Kochav HaShachar, where my daughter Mira and her family live. The village is in the heart of Yesha, a half hour's trip northeast from Jerusalem. I drove there because I missed the bullet-proof bus, and I sweat bullets from fear, scanning the hillsides as I drove at high speed, hoping that this was my lucky day. This was the first time I had driven there since the Intifada began and I hoped that I had not made a foolish judgment when I decided to do so. I sighed a huge [...] 20115 134 21_Re: a day to remember14_Kleins Designs26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Sun, 19 Oct 2003 06:24:33 -0700738_windows-1255 Pearl

thank you for this wonderful, uplifting story. I will pass it along.

Steve



----- Original Message ----- From: "pearl skolnik" To: "nechama horwitt" ; "Jed Horwitt" ; "Abby Horwitt" ; "Alan Siegel" Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2003 3:44 PM Subject: a day to remember



> I shall not easily forget the simchat torah celebration in Kochav HaShachar, > where my daughter Mira and her family live. > The village is in the heart of Yesha, a half hour's trip northeast from > Jerusalem. I drove there because I missed the bullet-proof bus, and I sweat > bullets [...] 20250 358 22_Dennis & Next US State16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Sun, 19 Oct 2003 11:32:31 -0400642_us-ascii Dennis: So you're running for judge? Recollect WS Gilbert's observation that Though all my law is fudge, Yet I'll never, never budge, But I'll live and die a Judge!...

Judges in New York State are elected in a process that often benefits political clubhouse loyalists. Notwithstanding, occasionally outstanding jurists emerge from this process. Actually, electing judges is no more venal than having them appointed. To be appointed by a President, a Governor or a Mayor the judge still has to have been involved in clubhouse politics at one or another level of government. To reiterate, it's not the partisan involvement [...] 20609 109 9_Super Jew13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il31_Sun, 19 Oct 2003 21:09:19 +0200382_windows-1255 Jews rule the world!



By MICHAEL COREN



As any of you who have ever read the Arab press or studied many Islamic newspapers might know, my father ruled the world. No, I don't mean personally. Obviously not. We're not stupid. He drove a cab and spent 35 years paying for a small house in a London suburb. But he did still rule the world. [...] 20719 58 17_Technical problem13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Sun, 19 Oct 2003 15:22:04 -0400277_ISO-8859-15 Dear Friends,

I recently switched to Netscape 7.1 from Netscape 4.0 and I have a problem. My habonet emails from Jon Baum, Pearl and some other Israelis show up in the Hebrew characters. I can't figure out what to reset on my system. Help!

Judy Gelman 20778 34 13_Reply to Phil28_Michal and Efraim Perlmutter24_habesor@netvision.net.il31_Sun, 19 Oct 2003 22:33:58 +0200540_US-ASCII

In a letter to Habonet dated 16 October Phil Safier supplied a description of fascism entitled "The 14 Defining Characteristics Of Fascism" by Dr. Lawrence Britt

What is so striking about this description is that it fits most Arab "revolutionary" regimes almost perfectly. In addition the description by Dr. Britt so accurately describes the situation in the Palestinian Authority under the leadership of Yasser Arafat that one might think that Dr. Britt based his writing on the PA, if one didn't know better. [...] 20813 21 16_Re: Kibbutz book0_13_JLCAA@aol.com29_Sun, 19 Oct 2003 22:09:47 EDT604_US-ASCII Thank you Elihu!!!

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/

* * FREE JEWISH LEARNING * * Shamash invites you to join MyJewishLearning.com, a comprehensive, objective, authoritative and interactive learning resource in all areas of Judaism. Free membership via http://www.myjewishlearning.com/shamash ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 20835 55 42_Re: An Alternative to the Geneva Agreement0_13_JLCAA@aol.com29_Sun, 19 Oct 2003 22:12:30 EDT298_US-ASCII In a message dated 10/18/03 2:27:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, gelman@erols.com writes:



> Egypt wouldn't take it back (referring to Gaza) > > And Jordan wouldn't take back the West Bank. They fought one war with the > Palestinians and have no stomach for another one.

20891 197 26_Somewhere a chinuch lesson0_13_SC523@aol.com29_Sun, 19 Oct 2003 22:30:55 EDT542_UTF-8 Dear Chevreh, Somehow I just feel that there's a chinuch lesson hiding in this one: Subject: Executive Decision While walking down the street one day, George "Dubya" Bush is fatally shot by a disgruntled NRA member. His soul arrives in heaven and he is met by St. Peter at the Pearly Gates. "Welcome to Heaven," says St. Peter. "I'd like to just let you in, but I have orders from the Man Himself: He says you have to spend one day in Hell and one day in Heaven. Then you must choose where you'll live for eternity." "But, I've [...] 21089 120 26_Re: Dennis & Next US State0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Mon, 20 Oct 2003 09:12:31 EDT643_US-ASCII In a message dated 10/19/2003 12:31:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time, EliD@worldnet.att.net writes:



> Judges in New York State are elected in a process that often benefits > political clubhouse loyalists. Notwithstanding, occasionally outstanding jurists > emerge from this process. Actually, electing judges is no more venal than > having them appointed. To be appointed by a President, a Governor or a Mayor > the judge still has to have been involved in clubhouse politics at one or > another level of government. To reiterate, it's not the partisan involvement but > merely the level at which it takes place. Which [...] 21210 50 26_Re: Dennis & Next US State13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il31_Mon, 20 Oct 2003 17:59:26 +020067_iso-8859-1 Dennis, will you keep the iguanas?

Good luck, Jon 21261 44 21_RE: Technical problem12_Stopak, Noam20_NStopak@orionsci.com31_Mon, 20 Oct 2003 12:44:54 -0400280_- Dear Judy,

Sadly I have been assimilated into the Microsoft Borg so I can't try this and see, but if I recall from my Netscape days of yore, there is a preferences setting which says whether or not to use the font specified in a message or to use your own settings. [...] 21306 136 13_Re: Super Jew14_Kleins Designs26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Mon, 20 Oct 2003 09:57:53 -0700613_windows-1255 Jonathan

The world is a little bit brighter and happier for this article.

Thanks

Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jonathan Baum" To: "Habonet" Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2003 12:09 PM Subject: Super Jew



> Jews rule the world! > > > By MICHAEL COREN > > > As any of you who have ever read the Arab press or studied many Islamic > newspapers might know, my father ruled the world. No, I don't mean > personally. Obviously not. We're not stupid. He drove a cab and spent 35 > years paying for a small house in [...] 21443 57 13_Silver Lining14_Martin Goodman26_martinjgoodman@hotmail.com31_Mon, 20 Oct 2003 17:55:54 +0000425_- Shalom Jon:

The article by Michael Coren provided in your posting "Super Jew" lampoons recent remarks about the Jewish people made by the the Prime Minister of Maylasia.

Some commentators point out that there is a silver lining in the P.M.'s remarks, i.e., at least this enemy of the Jewish people is not a holocaust denyer [See the capitalized words in the following excerpt from the P.M.'s statement]. [...] 21501 88 17_Re: Silver Lining13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il31_Mon, 20 Oct 2003 21:33:39 +0200390_windows-1255 Shalom Marty.

I suppose one could also find a silver lining in the fact that a Muslim leader can openly confront some of the problems that beset Islamic civilization today: its inflexibility, its lack of open intellectual discourse, its unwillingness to accept democracy, religious freedom, and economic competition, and, most of all, its isolation from modernity. [...] 21590 125 21_Re: Technical problem13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Mon, 20 Oct 2003 22:09:02 -0400614_us-ascii Thank you! You solved my problem. Judy

Stopak, Noam wrote:

>Dear Judy, > >Sadly I have been assimilated into the Microsoft Borg so I can't try this >and see, but if I recall from my Netscape days of yore, there is a >preferences setting which says whether or not to use the font specified in a >message or to use your own settings. > >Resistance is futile. > >Noam > >-----Original Message----- >From: Judith Gelman [mailto:gelman@erols.com] >Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2003 3:22 PM >To: habonet >Subject: Technical problem > > >Dear Friends, > >I recently switched to Netscape 7.1 from [...] 21716 98 36_Fw: The Case for Israel (dershovitz)13_pearl skolnik25_pskolnik@netvision.net.il31_Tue, 21 Oct 2003 08:31:05 +0200679_iso-8859-1

From: Jonathan D. Safren



Subject: Fw: The Case for Israel



For those of you who encounter difficulties explaining the Israeli-Palestinian cnflict to yourselves, your families and friends, your students, your congregations and the community in general, I highly recommend Alan Dershowitz's new book The Case for Israel, Hoboken, NJ, John Wiley, 2003. Written as a legal brief but in a most readable and easily understood style , Dershowitz raises the 32 most common "accusations" levelled against Israel, and refutes them one by one, drawing extensively from the primary and secondary sources on the subject. (Yonathan Safran) [...] 21815 103 32_Fw: Article written 35 years ago13_pearl skolnik25_pskolnik@netvision.net.il31_Tue, 21 Oct 2003 08:33:29 +0200617_iso-8859-1

----- From: "Jonathan D. Safren"

CAN YOU BELIEVE..... This article was written 35 Years ago!!! Some truths never change. > Eric Hoffer was a Non-Jewish American social philosopher. He as born in 1902 > and died in 1983, after writing nine books and winning the Presidential > Medal of Freedom. His first book, The True Believer, published in 1951, was > widely recognized as a classic. > > ISRAEL'S PECULIAR POSITION > By Eric Hoffer (LA Times 5/26/68) > > The Jews are a peculiar people: things permitted to other nations are > forbidden to the Jews. Other nations [...] 21919 373 36_Re: Fw: Article written 35 years ago13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Tue, 21 Oct 2003 06:55:40 -0400603_us-ascii Yes, I can certainly believe this was written 35 years ago. It sounds very dated to me with its black and white interpretation of the situation in Israel and its black and white analysis of the rest of the world. Judy



pearl skolnik wrote:

>----- >From: "Jonathan D. Safren" > > CAN YOU BELIEVE..... > This article was written 35 Years ago!!! Some truths never change. > > >>Eric Hoffer was a Non-Jewish American social philosopher. He as born in >> >> >1902 > > >>and died in 1983, after writing nine books and winning the Presidential >>Medal of [...] 22293 37 26_Re: Dennis & Next US State0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Tue, 21 Oct 2003 12:24:36 EDT74_US-ASCII I have a parrot (Bill). I guess we're all a tad excentric. Dennis 22331 117 42_Re: An Alternative to the Geneva Agreement0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Tue, 21 Oct 2003 13:04:34 EDT448_US-ASCII Marty, I don't think any negotiated agreement with the Palestinians is acceptable, trustable, or supportable in logic. What basis do you, or any of us have, that anything said by the Palestinians can be trusted or relied upon.

Rather than give back Gaza and the West Bank, I say send all the Palestinians to join their families in the refugee camps outside Israel, annex the West Bank & Gaza into Israel and have done with it. [...] 22449 126 48_Fw: Is the U.S. Post Office a "Bunch of Morons"?8_molieric25_molieric@netvision.net.il31_Tue, 21 Oct 2003 19:51:50 +0200363_ISO-8859-1

----- Original Message ----- From: Mayim@aol.com To: GME529@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2003 4:44 AM Subject: Is the U.S. Post Office a "Bunch of Morons"?





>From Our Niece Beth

This one is impossible to believe. Scroll down for the text. If there is only one thing you forward today.....let it be this! [...] 22576 125 52_Re: Fw: Is the U.S. Post Office a "Bunch of Morons"?0_13_Mmxmm@aol.com29_Tue, 21 Oct 2003 14:53:18 EDT596_US-ASCII I am often astounded at the deeply roooted [ i was going to say knee jerk but its much more insidious then that] predudice that all too often appears on this list..that includes an earlier posting today by dlerner regarding.

marc margolis

<
Love,

Noam

p.s. sounds like an awesome show coming up at the BCT...

-----Original Message----- From: Mmxmm@aol.com [mailto:Mmxmm@aol.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2003 2:53 PM To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: [spam] Re: Fw: Is the U.S.



I am often astounded at the deeply roooted [ i was going to say knee jerk but its much more insidious then that] predudice that all too often appears on this list..that includes an earlier posting today by dlerner regarding. [...] 22863 226 48_Re: Is the U.S. Post Office a "Bunch of Morons"?12_Karen Fisher23_pkfisher19@peoplepc.com31_Tue, 21 Oct 2003 15:15:40 -0400619_iso-8859-1 Ah, yes and remember the Oklahoma City bombing, by, um, white non-Muslim Americans . . . should we blame them all?

To blame all Muslims for the acts of terrorist extremists is a form of blood libel Jews should be ashamed of.

The U.S. Postal Service (hasn't been the "Post Office" for decades) recognizes Christmas, Chinese New Year and Hannukah, why shouldn't it recognize a Muslim holiday? In fact, Jews should see this as a good thing, respectfully recognizing a minority religion and encouraging its members to feel accepted and part of a diverse society, and showing the world America [...] 23090 196 52_Re: Fw: Is the U.S. Post Office a "Bunch of Morons"?13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Tue, 21 Oct 2003 16:56:28 -0400325_us-ascii Dear Molly,

Please spare us the racist tripe. I personally find it revolting.

There are about 2 million Muslims living peacefully in the US. Unless you want the post office to get rid of christmas and chanukah stamps, what is wrong in selling stamps to mark the major holiday of a major religion? [...] 23287 168 21_The Motherhood of Man12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Tue, 21 Oct 2003 22:51:02 +0200433_iso-8859-1 Haverot/im - especially Haverot I want to recommend a bilingual Anthology of Hebrew feminist poems entitled THE DEFIANT MUSE edited by several hands.

The poem below describes my empathy for the suffering Palestinians no less than for the lacerating double pain that those of us who have retained our single moral standard, our naively tenaciously Tchernichowsky image as humans suffer at our loses and theirs. [...] 23456 34 42_Re: An Alternative to the Geneva Agreement13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Tue, 21 Oct 2003 17:37:02 -0400591_ISO-8859-1 P.S. Have you heard the latest. The Palestinians realize theirs will not be a viable country, so they will settle for becoming citizens of Israel for the time being



Dennis, This is not "settling". What they realize is that if Israel won't make peace with them, they will be part of the same country and the Palestinians will outnumber the Jews very shortly. When Israel has a Palestinian government that will end the "problem." Personally, I love Israel too much to let demography win the war. I'd rather make peace, even if it is a "one hand clapping" peace. [...] 23491 83 25_Re: The Motherhood of Man0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Tue, 21 Oct 2003 17:37:20 EDT557_US-ASCII Amnon provocative as always, but I am provoked to ask: What would have become of Issac if Ishmael had not been sent off to live away from us? What would have become of Jacob left to the devices of Esau. We are moved by our forebearers to a conciliatory response to threats against our safety, but when these do not work, are we not enjoined to separate ourselves from the other by whatever means are necessary to preserve our survival. Please point out the antecedent for our persistence in trying to live in peace among our enemies - when it [...] 23575 136 14_Enough Already13_richard smith19_rdsmith1957@msn.com31_Tue, 21 Oct 2003 21:12:34 -0400361_iso-8859-1 The abundance of bigotry, small mindedness, ethnocentrism, and just plain absurdity being posted on this list lately is approaching the intolerable.

We have someone ready to blame an entire religion for the acts of some of its members and calls the USPS a bunch of morons because it chooses to commemorate one of this religions holidays. [...] 23712 131 18_Re: Enough Already13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Tue, 21 Oct 2003 21:37:20 -0400603_us-ascii Kol hakavod, Richard!

Judy

richard smith wrote:

> The abundance of bigotry, small mindedness, ethnocentrism, and just > plain absurdity being posted on this list lately is approaching the > intolerable. > > We have someone ready to blame an entire religion for the acts of some > of its members and calls the USPS a bunch of morons because it chooses > to commemorate one of this religions holidays. > > Another post comes close to claiming, yet again, that America needs > Israel more than Israel needs America. People who believe this live > in a make-believe world [...] 23844 64 25_Re: The Motherhood of Man0_13_SC523@aol.com29_Wed, 22 Oct 2003 01:59:10 EDT600_US-ASCII

In a message dated 10/21/03 5:38:44 PM, DLerner569@aol.com writes:



> What would have become of Jacob left to the devices of Esau >

There's no question that we're all waiting for appropriate peace partners to begin a dialogue. Please, however, be as careful in peace dialogues as in sentences like the above and its parallels . If you read Parshat Toldot carefully you'll see that, children's bible storybooks notwithstanding, Esav wasn't the brother who resorted to the most "devices." Brother Yakov does not come up blameless in this story--have a look - Aliya 23909 54 25_Re: The Motherhood of Man0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Wed, 22 Oct 2003 10:33:37 EDT438_US-ASCII In a message dated 10/21/2003 11:05:48 PM Pacific Daylight Time, SC523@aol.com writes: Brother Yakov does not come up blameless in this story--have a look - Isn't that what is amazing about our "heroes"- they all have a "tragic flaw" which makes them "human" ( do you think Shakespeare picked up on that?)--that is one of the things which makes the Tanach so interesting--and long-lasting- and a target for unending "sichot'--sue 23964 90 18_Re: Enough Already0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Wed, 22 Oct 2003 12:00:43 EDT642_US-ASCII In a message dated 10/21/2003 9:13:17 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rdsmith1957@msn.com writes:



> It is truly a sad state of affairs when Habonim educated people express > such intolerant, absurd and bigoted views. Have you no shame? > Richard, One might take offense to such characterizations. I offer no defense. I am secure in the knowledge that I am right. The Palestinians are not Israel's problem to solve. Israel cannot simultaneously solve the Palestinian problem and continue to exist. To think otherwise is sophistry (at which some have great talent). If I am allowed to choose between continued efforts to [...] 24055 84 25_Re: The Motherhood of Man0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Wed, 22 Oct 2003 12:25:15 EDT552_US-ASCII Aliya,

With every kindness at my disposal, you miss the point.

I agree Jacob is the coniver in the story, and is rewarded. The discordance of this with our Jewish values is what makes this parsha so potent as a keyhole to view the lesson G-d wishes us to take away.

Esau is a hunter and killer. His values are invested in what he can wrest from nature and from others. In some stories Esau trades his share of the bithright of Isaac for a serving of lentils after having just killed Nimrod and 2 of his men. If Jacob [...] 24140 44 52_Re: Fw: Is the U.S. Post Office a "Bunch of Morons"?0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Wed, 22 Oct 2003 12:28:39 EDT205_US-ASCII Dear Marc,

I am indeed prejudiced. I am prejudiced in favor of the survival of my people and the State of Israel. If you don't share that prejudice, I wonder what you are doing here. Dennis 24185 42 30_Re: [spam] Re: Fw: Is the U.S.0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Wed, 22 Oct 2003 12:30:18 EDT82_US-ASCII Noam,

I count it a good day when I can astonish you.

Dennis 24228 42 48_Re: Is the U.S. Post Office a "Bunch of Morons"?0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Wed, 22 Oct 2003 12:31:56 EDT94_US-ASCII Karen & Phil,

I hope you won't be offended but I agree with you.

Dennis 24271 36 18_The ties that bind0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Wed, 22 Oct 2003 13:08:08 EDT567_US-ASCII I was in bed last night watching "Law and Order" and thinking to myself why I care about opening up emails from Habonet. It was a wierd day in LA--over 103 degree heat ( thank God for air-conditioning!)- and fires were burning all over the hills and canyons. Traffic sucked; the "Terminator" may not be able to repeal the trippling of our car taxes, the super-market unions are on strike and I refuse to cross the picket lines; so are the bus mechanics; Malaysians are touting more anti-semitism, and there are floods in Seattle. But there is a place I [...] 24308 66 46_New peace intitiative?/ Haaretz/ Oct. 22, 200311_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org31_Wed, 22 Oct 2003 12:19:49 -0500662_us-ascii Background / Mideast peace as cause celebre By Bradley Burston, Haaretz Correspondent

Driven to distraction by the tragedies of eternal warfare and the burdens of economic strife, Israelis woke Wednesday to a peace initiative so outlandish as to accomplish the impossible - defy immediate condemnation.

Heralded by a literally star-spangled flourish in the popular press, an organization called OneVoice Israel announced that a red carpet list of marquee actors - Brad Pitt, Jennifer Aniston, Jason Alexander, Danny De Vito and Rhea Pearlman - had signed on for a decidedly unorthodox mission: coming to the Holy Land in an effort to [...] 24375 38 50_RE: New peace intitiative?/ Haaretz/ Oct. 22, 200312_Stopak, Noam20_NStopak@orionsci.com31_Wed, 22 Oct 2003 13:29:47 -0400526_- What does "a catholic range of outlooks" mean?

-----Original Message----- From: Roz Barland [mailto:rbarland@mjds.org] Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2003 1:20 PM To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: New peace intitiative?/ Haaretz/ Oct. 22, 2003



Background / Mideast peace as cause celebre By Bradley Burston, Haaretz Correspondent

...

The group has also mobilized a number of big names from the world of Holy Land politics, with a catholic range of outlooks on the Middle East conflict. [...] 24414 46 22_Re: The ties that bind13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il31_Wed, 22 Oct 2003 19:32:08 +020035_iso-8859-1 And we love you.

24461 46 22_Re: The ties that bind0_13_Mmxmm@aol.com29_Wed, 22 Oct 2003 13:44:11 EDT84_US-ASCII put de lime in da coconut: ....The bottom lime- is- I love you guys.....sue 24508 114 52_Re: Fw: Is the U.S. Post Office a "Bunch of Morons"?0_13_Mmxmm@aol.com29_Wed, 22 Oct 2003 13:59:54 EDT583_US-ASCII Dennis,

So at least we wonder the same thing...what each other is doing here on this particular list. Somewhere along the line your 'well of humanity became poisoned' and your ability to have compassion... to 'see the other' as something more then an enemy, shriveled up, sadly however you are by no means alone. Certainly there are many profoundly understandable reasons as to why this has occurred. I always believed then [when I was in Israel circa '68-'78] as I still do now that the real toll of the terrorist bomb is not in the numbers of people killed or [...] 24623 58 8_catholic13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il31_Wed, 22 Oct 2003 20:08:58 +0200298_windows-1255 1.. Of broad or liberal scope; comprehensive: The 100-odd pages of formulas and constants are surely the most catholic to be found (Scientific American). 2.. Including or concerning all humankind; universal: what was of catholic rather than national interest (J.A. Froude).

24682 76 12_Re: catholic13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Wed, 22 Oct 2003 14:33:45 -0400323_windows-1255 Help! Did this come in half hebrew gibberish to anyone else? I thought I had cured my problem (with Noam's advice) but, alas, this message is the most puzzling yet because only intermittent parts were in hebrew letters. I don't seem to have any more parameters to change. Judy

Jonathan Baum wrote: [...] 24759 46 12_Re: catholic13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il31_Wed, 22 Oct 2003 20:56:47 +020061_windows-1255 That's ok. I speak half-hebrew gibberish myself. 24806 72 27_From today's Jerusalem Post13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il31_Wed, 22 Oct 2003 20:59:17 +0200600_windows-1255

Poll: 59% of Palestinians support continuation of terror after state is created



---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Janine Zacharia Oct. 22, 2003

---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----

Fifty-nine percent of Palestinians believe that Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad should continue their armed struggle against Israel even if Israel leaves all of the West Bank and Gaza, including East Jerusalem, and a Palestinian state is created, a new survey shows. [...] 24879 920 41_Fw: Is Shimon Peres the father of Kramer?13_pearl skolnik25_pskolnik@netvision.net.il31_Wed, 22 Oct 2003 21:04:43 +0200389_iso-8859-1 Message ----- Original Message ----- From: sgrafix To: Undisclosed-Recipient:; Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2003 3:28 PM Subject: Is Shimon Peres the father of Kramer?





1943: A 20-year-old Shimon Peres weirdly resembles Michael Richards as Kramer. The caption on Kramer's photo reads "Actor Michael Richards denies the rumors he is Shimon Peres' lost son." 25800 146 30_Fwd: Dennis Miller Live on HBO0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Wed, 22 Oct 2003 15:35:53 EDT121_US-ASCII I can't remember if this was posted on Habonet--although it is very "prejudicial"--it says some things--sadly..s 25947 26 29_Re: Dennis Miller Live on HBO0_15_DebALev@aol.com29_Wed, 22 Oct 2003 15:44:03 EDT742_US-ASCII THIS WAS NOT BY DENNIS MILLER. Check out http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/outrage/miller.htm

It has been cruising the net for over a year.

Debbie

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/

* * FREE JEWISH LEARNING * * Shamash invites you to join MyJewishLearning.com, a comprehensive, objective, authoritative and interactive learning resource in all areas of Judaism. Free membership via http://www.myjewishlearning.com/shamash ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 25974 22 29_Re: Dennis Miller Live on HBO0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Wed, 22 Oct 2003 15:47:13 EDT678_US-ASCII Ooops- sorry- I thought I had seen this before-- must be having "senior moments"- Thanks deb

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/

* * FREE JEWISH LEARNING * * Shamash invites you to join MyJewishLearning.com, a comprehensive, objective, authoritative and interactive learning resource in all areas of Judaism. Free membership via http://www.myjewishlearning.com/shamash ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 25997 24 29_Web page referral: snopes.com0_18_liberhawke@aol.com31_Wed, 22 Oct 2003 12:51:33 -0700485_- I thought this entry from the Urban Legends Reference Pages might interest you:

http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/outrage/miller.htm

This is the scoop on this- which makes it even more interesting--s



------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 26022 64 12_Re: catholic0_25_briancooper@optonline.net31_Wed, 22 Oct 2003 16:36:24 -0400610_windows-1252 Have you tried checking what fonts your browser is using? It may be switching to Hebrew font sets, based on the geographic origin of the emails.

--Brian

----- Original Message ----- From: Judith Gelman Date: Wednesday, October 22, 2003 2:33 pm Subject: Re: catholic

> Help! Did this come in half hebrew gibberish to anyone else? I > thought I > had cured my problem (with Noam's advice) but, alas, this message > is the > most puzzling yet because only intermittent parts were in hebrew > letters. I don't seem to have any more parameters to change. > [...] 26087 85 48_Re: Is the U.S. Post Office a "Bunch of Morons"?12_Karen Fisher23_pkfisher19@peoplepc.com31_Wed, 22 Oct 2003 16:49:23 -0400332_iso-8859-1 Not offended at all. Thanks,

Karen ----- Original Message ----- From: DLerner569@aol.com To: habonet@shamash.org Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2003 12:31 PM Subject: Re: Is the U.S. Post Office a "Bunch of Morons"?



Karen & Phil,

I hope you won't be offended but I agree with you.

Dennis 26173 47 52_Re: Fw: Is the U.S. Post Office a "Bunch of Morons"?0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Wed, 22 Oct 2003 17:01:42 EDT389_US-ASCII Marc, I have only one face. It is an essential quality of a judge that he or she be able to set aside all bias and personal views and judge each matter on the facts and law as they apply to that matter. I have no difficulty in fulfilling that responsibility. My prejudice is against sacrifing Israel for the sake of finding a solution to the Palestinians national longings. Dennis 26221 81 18_Re: Enough Already13_richard smith19_rdsmith1957@msn.com31_Wed, 22 Oct 2003 17:10:30 -0400576_iso-8859-1 DLerner stated, "Thanks for your generous spirit of understanding."



You obviously misunderstood my post completely Dennis. I wasn't being generous or making any attempt to understand your particular brand of "Israeli nationalism." It seems to be an Israeli version of the John Birch Society; a "my country right or wrong," ideology which I find particularly disheartening coming from an ex-Habonim member. I am sure if you were to post on a Batar list you would find more of the understanding that you seek. I met Rabbi Kahane once and he shared both 26303 47 50_RE: New peace intitiative?/ Haaretz/ Oct. 22, 200312_David Fleiss20_dfleiss@pipeline.com31_Wed, 22 Oct 2003 17:29:47 -0400638_us-ascii catholic (lower-case "C") = universal, all-inclusive

David "Webster" Fleiss



Noam wrote: >What does "a catholic range of outlooks" mean? > >-----Original Message----- >From: Roz Barland [mailto:rbarland@mjds.org] >Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2003 1:20 PM >To: habonet@shamash.org >Subject: New peace intitiative?/ Haaretz/ Oct. 22, 2003 > > >Background / Mideast peace as cause celebre >By Bradley Burston, Haaretz Correspondent > >... > >The group has also mobilized a number of big names from the world of Holy >Land politics, with a catholic range of outlooks on the Middle East >conflict. > >... > [...] 26351 47 42_Re: An Alternative to the Geneva Agreement14_Martin Goodman26_martinjgoodman@hotmail.com31_Wed, 22 Oct 2003 21:53:06 +0000571_- Shalom Dennis:

In your last posting, you wrote, "" Rather than give back Gaza and the West Bank, I say send all the Palestinians to join their families in the refugee camps outside Israel, annex the West Bank & Gaza into Israel and have done with it. ""

I'm not sure if you are just expressing the frustration that many others feel or if you literally mean what you wrote. If the latter is true, I respectfully disagree because wholesale expulsion of Palestinians from the West Bank and Gaza could only be accomplished at the cost of many Jewish and [...] 26399 76 25_Re: The Motherhood of Man14_Martin Goodman26_martinjgoodman@hotmail.com31_Thu, 23 Oct 2003 01:31:13 +0000398_- Shalom Amnon,

In your posting "The Motherhood of Man, you wrote,

"" And the isolated fanatics of Hebron, those benighted evil, gun-toting settlers, invite Am Israel to come to Hebron to come in subsidized armored busses to dance with them on Simchat Torah. They dance with torah scrolls, their totemic insignia clutched to their bosoms or held high - at least the men do... "" [...] 26476 153 42_Re: An Alternative to the Geneva Agreement13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Wed, 22 Oct 2003 21:48:57 -0400566_x-mac-roman Dear Marty,

I am really interested to hear of a possibility that meets all the criteria you set out. Please share your thoughts.

Warmly, Judy Gelman

Martin Goodman wrote:

> Shalom Dennis: > > In your last posting, you wrote, "" Rather than give back Gaza and the > West Bank, I say send all the Palestinians to join their families in > the refugee camps outside Israel, annex the West Bank & Gaza into > Israel and have done with it. "" > > I'm not sure if you are just expressing the frustration that many > others feel [...] 26630 58 29_Re: Dennis Miller Live on HBO0_14_KBob24@aol.com29_Wed, 22 Oct 2003 23:20:17 EDT357_US-ASCII In a message dated 10/22/2003 3:45:50 PM Eastern Daylight Time, DebALev@aol.com writes: THIS WAS NOT BY DENNIS MILLER. Check out http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/outrage/miller.htm

It has been cruising the net for over a year. It was written by Larry Miller, the actor and comedian. I saw him on Dennis' HBO program and they discussed it. [...] 26689 207 42_Shaking hands with Jews: never a good idea13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il31_Thu, 23 Oct 2003 06:54:22 +0200688_windows-1255

Special Dispatch Series - No. 593 October 22, 2003 No.593

Panic in Khartoum: Foreigners Shake Hands, Make Penises Disappear

During September 2003, mass hysteria spread through Khartoum, the capital of Sudan, which was ultimately quelled by police intervention and statements made by the health minister. The panic was caused by rumors of foreigners roaming the city and shaking men's hands, making their penises disappear. The rumors were spread rapidly by text messages on cellular phones, and diverted the public's attention from a breakthrough in negotiations in Kenya between Sudanese Vice President Ali Othman and SPLA leader John Garang. [1] [...] 26897 124 25_Re: The Motherhood of Man0_13_SC523@aol.com29_Thu, 23 Oct 2003 02:14:49 EDT423_US-ASCII I hope that this excerpt from a dvar Torah one of my 12 year old students wrote (the result of a creative writing workshop I teach) will give Dennis and others pause in thinking that Esav was the wily and deceitful brother:

"Esav says to Yakov, 'Give me some of that red stuff to gulp down, for I am famished.' Yakov agrees to give him the stew but only if, in return, Esav gives Yakov his birthright. [...] 27022 72 42_NYTimes.com Article: Listening to Mahathir0_20_emskol@bellsouth.net37_Thu, 23 Oct 2003 07:51:55 -0400 (EDT)515_US-ASCII This article from NYTimes.com has been sent to you by emskol@bellsouth.net.



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Marc, You wrote ... I always believed then [when I was in Israel circa '68-'78] as I still do now that the real toll of the terrorist bomb is not in the numbers of people killed or maimed [and I am by no means trivializing the unspeakable human suffering and loss] but rather on the long term psychological and emotional cost taken on one's own soul... loss of the ability to have compassion and empathy for all sides. I don't apologize for still shedding tears for us and them. ... and I get a warm buzz of affection and fellowship. [...] 27215 132 18_Re: Enough Already0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Thu, 23 Oct 2003 11:23:11 EDT641_US-ASCII Dear Richard, "You obviously misunderstood my post completely"

You left out aversions to my family, references to my mother's relationships with animals, and the parentage of my children - it's good to see you mellowing as you flirt with senility.

What poor Richard fails to grasp is that recognizing and stating the truth about the leadership and activists among the Palestinians, does not constitute an endorsement of Israeli policies on the West Bank and Gaza. Atrocities are to be condemned whenever and whomever they they are committed by, but it is not necessary, desireable, or frankly excusable, to be so [...] 27348 73 42_Re: An Alternative to the Geneva Agreement0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Thu, 23 Oct 2003 11:25:46 EDT470_US-ASCII In a message dated 10/22/2003 5:53:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time, martinjgoodman@hotmail.com writes:



> > I believe however that we both agree that there are alternatives to > two-state proposals such as the Geneva Agreement in which Israel would buy a > > short-term illusory peace by means of excessive concessions and one-state > proposals in which an Arab majority could eventually do away with the State > of Israel. > > Marty Goodman > > [...] 27422 56 42_Re: An Alternative to the Geneva Agreement0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Thu, 23 Oct 2003 11:30:29 EDT330_US-ASCII In a message dated 10/22/2003 5:53:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time, martinjgoodman@hotmail.com writes:



> wholesale expulsion of Palestinians from the > West Bank and Gaza could only be accomplished at the cost of many Jewish and > > Arab lives

Pay me now or pay me with compounded interest later. Dennis 27479 79 25_Re: The Motherhood of Man0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Thu, 23 Oct 2003 11:53:07 EDT558_US-ASCII Aliya, I would not take away from the insights of a twelve year old. I was one myself once. But for counterpoint I refer you to Louis Ginzberg's book, The Legends of the Jews in which in the section on Jacob reference is made to Jacob's stew of lentils. Lentils being a meal eaten after someone's death. Here it the day of Isaac's death, and Esau rejects the possibility of the resurrection of souls, and is unmoved by his father's death. The story makes note of the wealth of Isaac's household and the ease with which Esau might have obtained [...] 27559 72 47_Re: Is the U.S. Post Office a "Bunch of Morons"0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Thu, 23 Oct 2003 12:13:29 EDT505_US-ASCII In a message dated 10/23/2003 10:17:50 AM Eastern Daylight Time, amriv@netvision.net.il writes:



> expressing the same kinds of prejudice as Dennis

Amnon & Marc,

I have a deep prejudice against those who would celebrate my destruction, and I have a deep pity for those who have no such prejudice. I do not catalogue my enemies by their race or religion or their desire for nationhood, but by their actions and the actions of their associates and representatives. [...] 27632 198 47_Re: Is the U.S. Post Office a "Bunch of Morons"14_Kleins Designs26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Thu, 23 Oct 2003 09:22:39 -0700412_iso-8859-1 Amnon

That's not the quote from Golda. Close, but not quite it. I think it was something about teaching our children to hate. Now if you are willing to substitute "mistrust", I think it was a pretty prescient expression. Additionally, many one-line zingers have gone down in history as among the most uplifting and inspiring to humankind. Nothin' wrong with keeping it short (and cogent). [...] 27831 147 18_RE: Enough Already13_Deborah Meyer14_dmeyer@rrc.edu31_Thu, 23 Oct 2003 12:38:53 -0400451_iso-8859-1 Hear, hear to Richard from one who usually does not weigh in.

And many thanks to Amnon for his latest teaching and the Bracha Serri poem, "Aliza Says."

Deborah Meyer Moshnik, wife of Tavornik, mother of Galilniks





richard smith wrote:



The abundance of bigotry, small mindedness, ethnocentrism, and just plain absurdity being posted on this list lately is approaching the intolerable. [...] 27979 231 55_From today's Guardian: What became of the Israeli left?13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il31_Thu, 23 Oct 2003 18:52:01 +0200309_windows-1255 What became of the Israeli left? Israel was founded by Europeans with socialist ideals and utopian dreams. Now the embattled country is dominated by the right and religious fanaticism is on the rise. What went wrong? Ian Buruma heads for the cafes of Schenken Street in search of the answer [...] 28211 589 16_Kennedy and Bush13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il31_Thu, 23 Oct 2003 18:58:06 +0200674_windows-1255 THE STRATFOR WEEKLY 20 October 2003

by Dr. George Friedman

The Cuban Missile Crisis: Parallels in History

Summary

The Cuban missile crisis under President John F. Kennedy holds some apt parallels to the challenges currently facing U.S. President George W. Bush.

Analysis

October always reminds us of the Cuban missile crisis. This is the 41st autumn since the defining moment that ended the first phase of the Cold War. In 2003, the memory of the missile crisis is, we believe, particularly apropos. Americans in general tend to think that everything the country is facing at a particular moment is unprecedented. [...] 28801 52 26_Indict Arafat/ WSJ/Oct. 2311_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org31_Thu, 23 Oct 2003 12:13:27 -0500664_us-ascii AT WAR

Indict Arafat No need to kill him, just put him in the dock.

BY ROBERT L. POLLOCK Saturday, October 18, 2003 12:01 a.m. EDT

President Bush's characteristically blunt assignment of responsibility for the Gaza Strip bombing that killed three Americans Wednesday--he blamed Yasser Arafat--was right on the mark. Even if Arafat didn't have a direct hand in the attack, there is no doubt that his policy has been one of sheltering and encouraging fellow terrorists. The question now is whether the U.S. will finally encourage Israel to deal decisively with the Palestinian terrorist-in-chief. One option well worth considering [...] 28854 51 63_Virtual Understandingsby Meron Benvenisti/ Ha;aretz/ October 2311_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org31_Thu, 23 Oct 2003 12:18:45 -0500667_us-ascii Virtual understandings By Meron Benvenisti

There are a number of ways to analyze that pretentious, complex and absurdly detailed document known (after some deliberation) as the "Geneva Understandings." First, it's possible to deal with the legality or kashrut of the privatization of contacts with the Palestinians and the monopoly over the peace process (or its torpedoing), to which the government claims exclusive ownership. Secondly, the "understandings" can be regarded as an educational aid or as a political trick, that is, the analysis would not consider the content but rather the message: "Proof there's someone to talk to," "A show of [...] 28906 320 59_Re: From today's Guardian: What became of the Israeli left?14_Kleins Designs26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Thu, 23 Oct 2003 10:33:36 -0700521_windows-1255 Jonathan

Thanks for this incisive piece. The main question Buruma asks is "What went wrong?" Who knows? Maybe nothing went wrong. Maybe in order for things to work out at all, it had to develop this way, no matter how "ugly" or haltingly. The kibbutz idea was great. It had to become. And it had to go. The article spoke about Barak. Maybe the same thing. He had to do what he did, not as a solution, but as a step. Maybe it isn't wrong. It just doesn't look or feel obviously right, admittedly. [...] 29227 94 42_Re: An Alternative to the Geneva Agreement13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Thu, 23 Oct 2003 16:40:52 -0400327_us-ascii Dennis,

I find your attitudes truly frightening. Mr. Milosevic is on trial for being able to actualize the type of defense of his beloved people that you are advocating here on behalf of the Jews. I know those are fighting words but I am sick to my stomach reading the emails you have been posting lately. [...] 29322 82 18_Re: Enough Already13_richard smith19_rdsmith1957@msn.com31_Thu, 23 Oct 2003 17:27:05 -0400188_iso-8859-1 Deborah Meyer stated:

"Deborah Meyer Moshnik, wife of Tavornik, mother of Galilniks"

And the "ex-wife" of an old Moshnik who appreciates her coming to his defense. 29405 104 52_Dennis:: Is the U.S. Post Office a "Bunch of Morons"13_pearl skolnik25_pskolnik@netvision.net.il31_Thu, 23 Oct 2003 23:53:09 +0200628_iso-8859-1 dennis, yesher koach! There have been some very vile words written on this list against fellow Jews, whollly out of prejudice, with no personal knowledge of these people. Hate would be the more correct word, hardly befitting a person who purports to be an "educator." Oy to his followers and genuflectors, and to those of us who privately voiced our opinions, but in public have until now (I include myself) feared to say what they think about this on the list. shabbat shalom, pearl ----- Original Message ----- From: DLerner569@aol.com To: habonet@shamash.org Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2003 6:13 PM Subject: [...] 29510 62 21_you must be kidding!"13_pearl skolnik25_pskolnik@netvision.net.il31_Thu, 23 Oct 2003 23:58:54 +0200343_iso-8859-1 surely, you are joking:

Ditto for: I'm however always heartened to hear from Amnon who despite all the reasons why he could be expressing the same kinds of prejudice as Dennis and others, has somehow managed to keep his own well of humanity pure and sweet.







Amnon







29573 70 25_Re: you must be kidding!"0_13_Mmxmm@aol.com29_Thu, 23 Oct 2003 18:27:07 EDT412_US-ASCII pearl,

believe me when I say I am not joking...or kidding. what I did neglect to add was there are many others on this list who also seem to have maintained their basic sense of justice for everyone. my apologies to them. yesher koach to them too.

:)

mm

In a message dated 10/23/2003 2:57:46 PM Pacific Daylight Time, pskolnik@netvision.net.il writes: surely, you are joking: 29644 49 41_Fw: Is Shimon Peres the father of Kramer?12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Fri, 24 Oct 2003 01:38:05 +0200368_us-ascii Pearl, The cartoon you sent Habonet is in appalling bad taste. It smells like the item you sent about dealing with terrorists by sewing their bodies in pig skins. and like caricatures of thick-lipped, hook-nosed conniving Jews which abound in official Arab papers, like Cairo's al-Ahram. It could be eagerly reprinted by Julius Streicher's Der Strummer. [...] 29694 44 29_Jewish Language Research Site11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org31_Thu, 23 Oct 2003 20:55:43 -0500635_ISO-8859-1

>From Sarah Bunin Benor: We are pleased to announce the completion of the Jewish Language Research Website: http://www.jewish-languages.org/

This website is designed to be a resource for Linguists, Jewish Studies Scholars, and the general public to learn about the speech and writing of Jews throughout history and around the world. It provides information about 14 Jewish languages: Hebrew, Jewish Aramaic, Jewish English, Jewish Malayalam,Judeo-Arabic, Judeo-French, Judeo-Greek, Judeo-Iranian, Judeo-Italian, Judeo-Persian, Judeo-Portuguese, Judeo-Provenal, Judeo-Spanish/Judezmo/Ladino, and Yiddish [...] 29739 125 30_NRO on-line /Failed Leadership11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org31_Fri, 24 Oct 2003 09:09:45 -0500491_ISO-8859-1

Failed Leadership The obstacle to peace in the Middle East.

By William J. Bennett & Seth Leibsohn

It is a "pretense" to think that "terrorism represents a failure, rather than a core element, of Palestinian governance," as Boston Globe columnist Jeff Jacoby recently put it. The question thus becomes: If terrorism is at the center of Palestinian leadership, what is at the center of Palestinian desires for Palestinians, for Israel, and for America? [...] 29865 22 41_New First Class/ Another Hebrew news site11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org31_Fri, 24 Oct 2003 09:13:45 -0500680_us-ascii http://www.nfc.co.il/archive/011-D-32497-00.html?tag=13-24-11

Hebrew fonts required....

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/

* * FREE JEWISH LEARNING * * Shamash invites you to join MyJewishLearning.com, a comprehensive, objective, authoritative and interactive learning resource in all areas of Judaism. Free membership via http://www.myjewishlearning.com/shamash ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 29888 149 34_Zionism as a Reluctant Nationalism13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il31_Fri, 24 Oct 2003 16:17:29 +0200423_utf-8 ZIONISM AS A RELUCTANT NATIONALISM (A Refutation of Tony Judt’s “Israel: The Alternative”)

By Nelson Ascher



Tony Judt’s despicable and by now notorious essay Israel: The Alternative (http://www.nybooks.com/articles/16671), a text preaching the destruction of the Jewish state that was published in the New York Review of Books, has been criticized from almost every possible angle. [...] 30038 73 41_Re: Is Shimon Peres the father of Kramer?13_pearl skolnik25_pskolnik@netvision.net.il31_Fri, 24 Oct 2003 16:26:14 +0200585_iso-8859-1 I LOVE kramer. YOU have to be joking. ----- Original Message ----- From: Amnon Hadary To: Habonet@shamash.org Sent: Friday, October 24, 2003 1:38 AM Subject: Fw: Is Shimon Peres the father of Kramer?



Pearl, The cartoon you sent Habonet is in appalling bad taste. It smells like the item you sent about dealing with terrorists by sewing their bodies in pig skins. and like caricatures of thick-lipped, hook-nosed conniving Jews which abound in official Arab papers, like Cairo's al-Ahram. It could be eagerly reprinted by Julius Streicher's Der Strummer. [...] 30112 66 14_kramer cartoon13_pearl skolnik25_pskolnik@netvision.net.il31_Fri, 24 Oct 2003 16:32:34 +0200544_windows-1255

Hi Pearl,

I thought the poster with Shimon Peres (1943) and Kramer was hilarious. The Jerusalem Post put it up on their bulletin board. You have to be a fanatic to compare it with Der Stuermer. (from member of Habonet who wishes to remain anonymous)

Just one of the letters sent to me from people on Habonet. I thought it was very funny too. What the hell does it have to do with anti-semitism? Peres when young looked like Kramer. Who is the stereotype: kramer or Peres? geeeez!!! shabbat shalom, pearl pearl 30179 137 41_Re: Is Shimon Peres the father of Kramer?14_Kleins Designs26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Fri, 24 Oct 2003 07:55:26 -0700402_iso-8859-1 Amnon

I am passing this along with the greatest fondness and respect. You missed the mark on this one. Plain and simple, you are coming from a place that is more than strange to the bulk of us out here.

Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: pearl skolnik To: habonet@shamash.org Sent: Friday, October 24, 2003 7:26 AM Subject: Re: Is Shimon Peres the father of Kramer? [...] 30317 47 22_"Let it begin with me"0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Fri, 24 Oct 2003 10:58:57 EDT346_US-ASCII I wish there were some way the deep anger between Amnon and Pearl could be "purged"---How can we aspire to a world of peace and fairness and respect for each other, when our own "dugma'ot" cannot. We all need to look in the mirror---Like the song, "Let there be peace on Earth, and let it begin with me..." Shabbat Shalom to all----susie 30365 90 41_RE: Is Shimon Peres the father of Kramer?12_Stopak, Noam20_NStopak@orionsci.com31_Fri, 24 Oct 2003 12:02:16 -0400391_- Hi Steve,

Just curious where you feel you received the mandate to speak for "the bulk of us out here", though I have to admit I often find you "out there" :-)

Noam

-----Original Message----- From: Kleins Designs [mailto:kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com] Sent: Friday, October 24, 2003 10:55 AM To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: Re: Is Shimon Peres the father of Kramer? [...] 30456 191 41_Re: Is Shimon Peres the father of Kramer?14_Kleins Designs26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Fri, 24 Oct 2003 10:07:03 -0700514_iso-8859-1 MessageHi Noam You are right. I was way out of line. I had no mandate. If I am going to be totally honest, I must confess that I hadn't even garnered another opinion outside my own before I shot my stupid mouth off.. I was way out of bounds. I couldn't be more contrite than I am at this very moment. I apologise to you, to all the people out there that were as offended as you were, to Mother Theresa (just covering my bets), and of course, to the "bulk" out there. If you really want to know the [...] 30648 58 41_Re: Is Shimon Peres the father of Kramer?13_richard smith19_rdsmith1957@msn.com31_Fri, 24 Oct 2003 15:43:10 -0400153_iso-8859-1 While agreeing with Steve feels a little like eating a cheeseburger on Yom Kippur, I must say I thought the picture comparing Peres and Kramer 30707 190 41_RE: Is Shimon Peres the father of Kramer?12_Stopak, Noam20_NStopak@orionsci.com31_Fri, 24 Oct 2003 16:27:34 -0400620_- Actually, as I said, I was just curious. Your response is, as you would say, "more than strange". Keep up the good work.

Shabbat Shalom,

Noam

-----Original Message----- From: Kleins Designs [mailto:kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com] Sent: Friday, October 24, 2003 1:07 PM To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: Re: Is Shimon Peres the father of Kramer?



Hi Noam You are right. I was way out of line. I had no mandate. If I am going to be totally honest, I must confess that I hadn't even garnered another opinion outside my own before I shot my stupid mouth off.. I was way out of bounds. I [...] 30898 36 41_Re: Is Shimon Peres the father of Kramer?0_25_briancooper@optonline.net31_Fri, 24 Oct 2003 16:56:39 -0400571_us-ascii Yes, while I don't particularly like emails that have nothing to contribute to a discussion beyond an "I agree with so-and-so" confirmation, sometimes, it must be said, as in this case, to right a wrong. I agree with Richard, who agreed with Steve. OK, so I guess I also am agreeing with Steve. Yikes. Amnon, I think perhaps you may have unfortunately missed the Kramer Culture! This cartoon WAS funny, and Krame, who credits much of his craft to Red Skelton, is a very funny actor. Now, while I have on many occasions asked that we NOT send attachments to [...] 30935 67 36_Fwd: She Lo Asanu K'Goyei Ha'aratzot0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Fri, 24 Oct 2003 19:51:46 EDT17_US-ASCII

31003 57 41_Re: Is Shimon Peres the father of Kramer?13_avi rosenberg16_avi@gezer.org.il31_Sat, 25 Oct 2003 12:58:27 +0200127_iso-8859-1 I was always under the impression that Shimon Peres is the long lost son of Chico Marx.

Avi Rosenberg

31061 109 11_The FORWARD3_leo18_leodie@isdn.net.il31_Sat, 25 Oct 2003 16:15:27 +0200583_us-ascii The November 6, 2003 issue of "The New York Review" has an exchange of letters on p.89 which may be of interest. JJ Goldberg, the editor of the "Forward", comments on an earlier article which referred to the "Forward" as a "conservative" publication and the author of the article, Elizabeth Drew, responds. I have been reading the "Forward" for a long time and never thought of it as a conservative publication, such as "Commentary", for instance. For those who need the information: JJ is a Habonim alumnus, 17th Workshop etc. and listed in the Habonim People Finder. [...] 31171 561 43_TNR Online | What is Not to be Done (print)16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Sat, 25 Oct 2003 10:32:38 -040080_us-ascii

http://www.tnr.com/docprint.mhtml?i=20031027&s=wieseltier102703 31733 45 36_William J. Bennett Failed Leadership11_Phil Safier17_psafier@elixa.com31_Sat, 25 Oct 2003 09:03:09 -0600636_iso-8859-1 William J. Bennett saying "morally wrong" should make his head explode in a just universe. If anyone has lost the right to use the words "Moral Clarity," it's this mamzer.



Failed Leadership The obstacle to peace in the Middle East.

By William J. Bennett & Seth Leibsohn

It would be both imprudent and morally wrong to reward Palestinian terrorism by creating a Baathist-Taliban state coterminous with our efforts to defeat terrorism elsewhere. Palestinian statehood may come, but not under these conditions not if the war on terrorism is to have any meaning, and not if democracy is to be [...] 31779 121 38_Re: Zionism as a Reluctant Nationalism11_Phil Safier17_psafier@elixa.com31_Sat, 25 Oct 2003 09:08:53 -0600330_us-ascii In A Refutation of Tony Judt's "Israel: The Alternative," Nelson Ascher writes: "Tony Judt's despicable and by now notorious essay Israel: The Alternative, a text preaching the destruction of the Jewish state that was published in the New York Review of Books, has been criticized from almost every possible angle." [...] 31901 165 31_"Untenable Apartheid Situation"14_Kleins Designs26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Sat, 25 Oct 2003 09:11:37 -0700557_iso-8859-1 To Phil Saphier

Phil-

You have gotten my attention. What I am asking at this point is for you to forget our past animosities for the while, and explain [once again] your solution to the "untenable apartheid situation" in Israel. You may have explained it before, and I admit I may not have been listening. I am listening now. This side of the issue is of major, major concern to me, and, as I said, I am listening. If there is even a chance of solution to this very real problem, it would be great to start formulating it now. [...] 32067 502 38_Fw: Return to Wannsee By Richard Cohen14_Kleins Designs26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Sat, 25 Oct 2003 09:30:19 -0700422_iso-8859-1

----- Original Message ----- From: Marcia Plager To: Elly Krapek ; Justin Ible ; Israel and Marlene Zakai ; Baruch Eichenbaum ; Joyce Kishineff ; George Briggs Sent: Saturday, October 25, 2003 5:25 AM Subject: Fw: Return to Wannsee By Richard Cohen







Return to Wannsee

By Richard Cohen Tuesday, October 21, 2003; Page A25 BERLIN -- Last night I played Schubert. [...] 32570 43 15_Re: The FORWARD12_David Fleiss20_dfleiss@pipeline.com31_Sat, 25 Oct 2003 13:12:11 -0400 32614 285 17_Fw: Fw: Aspertame8_molieric25_molieric@netvision.net.il31_Sat, 25 Oct 2003 22:08:16 +0200613_iso-8859-1 Very important information for users of "sugar free" sweetening and drinks.

All the best,

Mollie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Schwager" To: Sent: Saturday, October 25, 2003 5:23 AM Subject: FW: Fw: Aspertame



> > > > > > > > > > > > >Subject: Aspertame use and Diabetes, Lupis, MS, etc > > > > > >Article written by Nancy Markle > > > > > > > > >I have spent several days lecturing at the World Environment Conference > > >on Aspartame marketed as NutraSweet, Equal and Spoonful. In the keynote > > >address [...] 32900 39 21_Re: Fw: Fw: Aspertame0_16_Elana829@aol.com29_Sat, 25 Oct 2003 17:06:44 EDT76_US-ASCII I just checked this on snopes.com and it is a myth. Thank goodness! 32940 43 21_Re: Fw: Fw: Aspertame0_15_DebALev@aol.com29_Sat, 25 Oct 2003 17:23:09 EDT335_US-ASCII The aspArtame scare stories come around periodically. Scientifically, it just isn't true.

As someone with MS, these false stories are infuriating. There is a tremendous amount of MS research going on, thank goodness, and the ONLY common threads are: most people with MS come from areas where there is cold weather [...] 32984 100 9_Aspartame13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Sat, 25 Oct 2003 23:07:47 -0400571_ISO-8859-15 While this chain letter is know to have been written by a woman on a decades long campaign against Monsanto and has been discredited as having little if any factual basis in its claims, aspartame actually can be a problem for some people with particular medical conditions. Children with non-febrile seizures are often told to avoid products with aspartame as are people with severe liver disease. See below. However, the average 140 lb woman can consume 80 packets of nutrasweet a day and be well within the FDA guidelines on formaldehyde. So drink up! [...] 33085 81 5_reply8_molieric25_molieric@netvision.net.il31_Sun, 26 Oct 2003 19:56:36 +0200388_windows-1255





Dear Judith, Debby and Elana,



Thank you all for your interesting comments of the information I sent on aspartame. I spoke to my doctor about it and she is of the opinion that :

1. drink whatever you want, but, not in excess of 6 glasses a day.

2. better to drink "normal" soft drinks, but, less than 6 glasses a day. [...] 33167 47 37_3 more killed for nothing at Netzarim14_Ethan Schwartz23_arava_eilat@hotmail.com31_Sun, 26 Oct 2003 23:20:12 +0200559_iso-8859-1 In 1977 I was at heyachzut Katif, after observing the settlers hiring the same people WE THREW OFF the land to work their greenhouses on the same land, I approached my commander and let him know that my conscience would not allow me to continue my mission. Rather then throw me in prison he sought a liberal solution and offered to sent me to a heyachzut that would not be settled because of its location in the center of a densely populated area, its main reason for existence was support for the Nahal Headquarters in the city of Gaza. That [...] 33215 128 27_The obsolesence of America.0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Sun, 26 Oct 2003 20:44:25 EST667_US-ASCII Chevre,

America is a great wealth producing machine. It takes in the (once) abundant resources of the land, adds great quantities of low cost (typically immigrant) labor, and produces vast numbers of products of great style and utility, and markets them to upwardly striving consumers at a profit.

That was then, this is now. The competition for investor wagering on higher stock prices demands profits that outpace competitors in the market sector and preferrably the market's overall performance. The manufacturers have decided or been guided to focus their profit raising strategies on the cutting of costs and increases in efficiency. [...] 33344 227 31_Fw: Important, albeit unsigned.14_Kleins Designs26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Sun, 26 Oct 2003 19:54:34 -0800637_iso-8859-1 I apologise for not being able to find out who wrote this, mostly because it is so well written.

I would also welcome seeing the text of the speech at Rutgers that precipitated this letter.

Steve



----- Original Message ----- From: "Marcia Plager" To: "Elly Krapek" ; "Justin Ible" ; "Israel and Marlene Zakai" ; "Baruch Eichenbaum" ; "Joyce Kishineff" ; "George Briggs" Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2003 7:51 AM Subject: Fw: Important, albeit unsigned. [...] 33572 41 35_a silly question about pomegranates0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Mon, 27 Oct 2003 00:36:56 EST145_US-ASCII Can anyone tell me how to get rid of pomegranate "residue" on hands?....it's for a friend (really!)--sue who is expecting to burn soon.. 33614 101 14_kleins designs13_moshe sheskin24_moshes7@netvision.net.il55_Mon, 27 Oct 2003 03:39:58 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)361_iso-8859-1 To: Kleins Designs.

Thanks for putting the letter re Apartheid-Rutgers on Habonet.

I received a copy of the letter from my daughter whose friend wrote it. She does write beautifully and is indeed an asset to Israel's public relations.

If you want to reach her, her e-mail is:

angela03@netvision.net.il

Moshe Sheskin 33716 53 31_Re: The obsolesence of America.13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Mon, 27 Oct 2003 07:12:59 -0500210_us-ascii Your analysis of these issues shows the same subtle understanding of international trade and economics as you often share with us on international relations and negotiations.

Judy Gelman

33770 28 39_Re: a silly question about pomegranates13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il31_Mon, 27 Oct 2003 08:18:51 +0200636_iso-8859-1 Try this:

Nature's Miracle really works well on this. It's marketed as a pet odor/stain remover. You can buy it in pet food stores. (Get the liquid form.) It contains an enzyme that breaks down proteins. I recently used it on week-old pomegranate juice stains--totally gone! -- Kellie

http://parents.berkeley.edu/advice/household/foodstains.html

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 33799 38 39_Re: a silly question about pomegranates0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Mon, 27 Oct 2003 11:05:36 EST16_US-ASCII THANKS! 33838 60 25_Catastrophe Junkies Alert14_Kleins Designs26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Mon, 27 Oct 2003 08:21:27 -0800352_iso-8859-1 By now, you've probably heard that there is a whole lot of stuff floating around about Yellowstone Park blowing up and causing another Ice Age. I don't know if I fully "buy" it, but it is spellbinding. In any case,I don't think it is appropriate for the main forum, but if any individual wants some of it, you are welcome to it. Let me know. 33899 44 39_Re: a silly question about pomegranates13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il31_Mon, 27 Oct 2003 18:40:47 +020035_iso-8859-1 You're very welcome. Jon 33944 38 31_Re: The obsolesence of America.0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Mon, 27 Oct 2003 13:10:13 EST78_US-ASCII Judy, I'm not very good at subtleties, did I just get slammed? Dennis 33983 102 41_Re: 3 more killed for nothing at Netzarim0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Mon, 27 Oct 2003 13:39:32 EST382_US-ASCII There are many threads to Israel's settlement policies, and a separate derivative policy.

1. Palestine, if there is to be a Palestine, will be a state with a resident Jewish population, just as Israel is a state with a resident Arab population. Both states will have reason to show respect and restraint when it comes to dealing with their minority population. [...] 34086 26 13_Crucial times0_23_jacknusan@earthlink.net43_Mon, 27 Oct 2003 20:45:54 +0200 (GMT+02:00)348_us-ascii Greetings from Kibbutz Magen. I see David and Carmi Holtzer at Urim tomorrow. Things are thankfully quiet in Israel. My Machon reunion went beautifully. Saw Sari Spector and lots of other Habonim people. Maybe I'm going overborad but I am seriously thinking about aliyah at these crucial times.

L\hit.

Jack Nusan Porter [...] 34113 213 41_Re: 3 more killed for nothing at Netzarim14_Kleins Designs26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Mon, 27 Oct 2003 11:56:43 -0800570_iso-8859-1 Dennis

Hi, it's me, Steve

I didn't understand your last question. What would one have to do with the other? Arabs kill "collaborators" for a lot of reasons. The collaborators do not even have to be collaborators. It is an easyand convenient way for the rulers to rule the ruled- with terror. The acts stand as a warning to anyone who might even be thinking to do anything against those in power. For those carrying out the acts, it is a way of keeping their eyes and hands and knives honed close to home, without all the attendant risks of [...] 34327 25 29_Re: Catastrophe Junkies Alert0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Mon, 27 Oct 2003 14:55:34 EST347_US-ASCII Steve--with the grocery clerks strike, the bus mechanics strike, fires all over the place, the "blue flu," tripple car taxes, huge unsurmountable budget deficits, health care crises, and impending earthquakes, why in the hell would you look for more...don't we have enough right here in our little neighborhood???? :)--- love, susie [...] 34353 101 58_=?UNKNOWN?B?7uns6e0g7Pnp+OntIPLh+Onp7S0g7uX47yDg5fguaHRt?=12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Mon, 27 Oct 2003 22:02:33 +0200284_us-ascii To Marty and all others who asked to see the words to Natan Zach's Ki Ha-Adam Etz Hassadeh in the Hebrew original, I've tried to get them in an electronic compatible format. The attachment is guaranteed to be virus kosher by Norton Anti-Virus 2003.

Enjoy.

Amnon 34455 44 62_Wanted-two bedroom apartment in Parkslope or surrounding area!0_18_Green88888@aol.com29_Mon, 27 Oct 2003 16:58:00 EST356_US-ASCII My son and daughter in law who returned from Israel about two years ago are seriously looking to rent a two bedroom apartment in Park Slope or the surrounding area. They need it soon as they are expecting a baby in January (my first grandchild) and need a bigger place.If anyone knows of an apartment it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Donna 34500 62 31_Re: The obsolesence of America.13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Mon, 27 Oct 2003 17:22:32 -0500249_us-ascii As we know from the many discussion between members of this listserve, slamming is in the mind of the beholder. Judy

DLerner569@aol.com wrote:

> Judy, > I'm not very good at subtleties, did I just get slammed? > Dennis

34563 1287 24_Article by Hirsh Goodman3_leo18_leodie@isdn.net.il31_Tue, 28 Oct 2003 09:27:03 +0200 35851 37 134_=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re=3A=20=EE=E9=EC=E9=ED=20=EC=F9=E9=F8=E9=ED=20=F2=E1=F8=E9?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=E9=ED-=20=EE=E5=F8=EF=20=E0=E5=F8=2Ehtm?=11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org31_Tue, 28 Oct 2003 07:12:42 -0600540_us-ascii Sorry, I did not get the attachment. Could you send the URL?

---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: Amnon Hadary Reply-To: habonet@shamash.org Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 22:02:33 +0200

>To Marty and all others who asked to see the words to Natan Zach's Ki >Ha-Adam Etz Hassadeh in the Hebrew original, I've tried to get them in an >electronic compatible format. The attachment is guaranteed to be virus >kosher by Norton Anti-Virus 2003. > >Enjoy. > >Amnon > > [...] 35889 54 23_Re: The Jewish Frontier0_14_KBob24@aol.com29_Tue, 28 Oct 2003 10:14:13 EST198_US-ASCII Leo:

The Jewish Frontier is still published and I believe that Ari Chester, the LZA Exec. Director, is the editor. You can contact Ari at LabZionA@aol.com.

Regards,

Ken 35944 28 6_OY! :)11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org31_Tue, 28 Oct 2003 09:26:29 -0600525_us-ascii SATIRE? The Prime Minister of Malaysia was right! By Jordan Max

We've decided to go public with proof that a "secret international Jewish conspiracy" does indeed exist.

http://www.jewishworldreview.com/jordan/max_2003_10_28.php3



------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 35973 66 9_Tony Judt13_richard smith19_rdsmith1957@msn.com31_Tue, 28 Oct 2003 17:26:59 -0500356_iso-8859-1 I have finally read Tony Judt's article in the New York Review of Books (10/23/03). While I am unsure I agree with his conclusions, I don't find the article "dispicable" as someone suggested earlier. He points out many interesting facts about the situation and deals with the question those of us in Habonim have wrestled with for years: How can 36040 137 70_Fw: Fw: Wanted-two bedroom apartment in Parkslope or surrounding area!14_Kleins Designs26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Tue, 28 Oct 2003 14:37:18 -0800545_iso-8859-1 Donna

Try www.craigslist.org

Steve Klein ----- Original Message ----- From: Darya Klein To: Kleins Designs Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2003 9:23 AM Subject: Re: Fw: Wanted-two bedroom apartment in Parkslope or surrounding area!



www.craigslist.org

Kleins Designs wrote:

----- Original Message ----- From: Green88888@aol.com To: habonet@shamash.org Sent: Monday, October 27, 2003 1:58 PM Subject: Wanted-two bedroom apartment in Parkslope or surrounding area! [...] 36178 397 27_CIJR DAILY ISRANET BRIEFING11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org31_Tue, 28 Oct 2003 18:41:18 -0600801_ISO-8859-1





Volume III, Number 737 Tuesday, October 28, 2003

ISRANET DAILY BRIEFING A Service of CIJR Canadian Institute for Jewish Research

Prof. Frederick Krantz, Director P.O. Box 175, Station H Montreal, Quebec H3G 2K7 E-Mail: cijradmin@isranet.org Internet: http://www.isranet.org/



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THE ALTERNATIVE David Frum National Review, October 14, 2003

Perhaps you have heard of Tony Judt. He runs an institute of European politics at New York University; has written some widely praised books on modern European history; [and] contributes frequently to the New York Review of Books He is by no means an extremist. In fact, his best known book attacks French [...] 36576 100 31_Re: CIJR DAILY ISRANET BRIEFING13_richard smith19_rdsmith1957@msn.com31_Tue, 28 Oct 2003 20:19:45 -0500638_iso-8859-1 David Frum writes, "One must hate Israel very much indeed to prefer such an outcome to the reality of the liberal democracy that exists in Israel today."



I never stated I agreed with Judt's article but I feel the need to defends portions of it and this attack, in particular, I think is flawed. What "liberal democracy" has two public educational systems, areas segregated by law, close to fifty percent of its inhabitants denied citizenship, automatic citizenship given to aliens based on religious law, no civil marriage, differentiated rights to water..." Of course Israel is democratic (to a point) and [...] 36677 146 31_Re: CIJR DAILY ISRANET BRIEFING14_Kleins Designs26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Wed, 29 Oct 2003 07:49:16 -0800418_iso-8859-1 Dear Richard

1) Israel is different.

2) Aliens? I don't get it.

Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: richard smith To: habonet Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2003 5:19 PM Subject: Re: CIJR DAILY ISRANET BRIEFING



David Frum writes, "One must hate Israel very much indeed to prefer such an outcome to the reality of the liberal democracy that exists in Israel today." [...] 36824 128 13_Re: Tony Judt14_Kleins Designs26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Wed, 29 Oct 2003 07:58:42 -0800611_iso-8859-1 Dear Richard

Sorry. I would have responded all at once, but I didn't see this letter. You may have given us that elusive means of defining the absolutely wonderful creation that was, and is, the State of Israel. You are right. I doesn't fit the "other" definitions. It must have been created out of unique circumstances, out of a special need. Having been created out of unique circumstances, it couldn't fit whatever conventional molds existing at the time, or even now. Ladies and gentleman, I (we) give you "Jewish/Democratic". Richard- I like it. It's honest and it is accurate. What [...] 36953 162 31_Re: CIJR DAILY ISRANET BRIEFING14_Kleins Designs26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Wed, 29 Oct 2003 08:31:08 -0800302_iso-8859-1 Richard

For some reason, my previous reply to this letter "got lost in the mail".

I asked what you meant by "aliens".

As far as how long it should remain in effect, I think the answer is (and please correct me if I am wrong) as long as there is a [Jewish] problem. [...] 37116 51 31_Re: CIJR DAILY ISRANET BRIEFING13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il31_Wed, 29 Oct 2003 18:58:56 +0200114_iso-8859-1 Hey Steve and Richard, could you guys use bigger fonts? I'm squinting at my monitor.

Thanks, Jon 37168 38 31_Re: The obsolesence of America.0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Wed, 29 Oct 2003 12:03:54 EST55_US-ASCII Perhaps, but not coyness. How charming. Dennis 37207 32 37_Israel Conference on Hashomer Hatzair16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Wed, 29 Oct 2003 13:12:08 -0500700_us-ascii

On November 19th there will be one-day conference called "Hashomer Hatzair: Hopes, Illusions and Politics", organized jointly Givat Haviva and Tel Aviv University.

The conference will take place here in the Gilman Building on the TAU campus. The public is invited.

Information in Hebrew may be found at the following link:

http://www.tau.ac.il/humanities/zionism/conferenceh.html#Hashomer



------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 37240 39 19_Picket Line Dilemma0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Wed, 29 Oct 2003 15:58:23 EST549_US-ASCII Well, for the first time in my life I am contemplating crossing a picket line. Maybe it is just because of all of the %$#@!*&^% that is happening out here in LA--but this is the situation and I am in a quandry. The grocery stores locked out their workers when Albertsons' workers decided to strike. SO the union, which is the union for all grocery workers and is fighting for a decent contract where the current state of health care and pension levels won't be discarded, is backing the strike. It has gone on for two weeks AND NO ONE [...] 37280 119 31_Re: CIJR DAILY ISRANET BRIEFING13_richard smith19_rdsmith1957@msn.com31_Wed, 29 Oct 2003 16:27:30 -0500580_iso-8859-1 Steve writes:

"I asked what you meant by "aliens".

As far as how long it should remain in effect, I think the answer is (and please correct me if I am wrong) as long as there is a [Jewish] problem.

What are your thoughts?

Steve"

By "aliens" I meant "non-citizens." I think the "law of return" was a necessity when the state began but believe it has outlived it's time. A democracy can not have such a law which ties into my next point which is that "Jewish democracy" doesn't do it for me. Couldn't South Africa of the apartheid [...] 37400 48 23_Re: Picket Line Dilemma0_13_JLCAA@aol.com29_Wed, 29 Oct 2003 16:35:10 EST490_US-ASCII Tough it out Susie, that's what the grocery workers are doing. That's what most LA folks are doing too! The longer people stay away and honor the picket line the more likely it is the grocers will be forced to work out a settlement. In the meantime, check out - and help out - those little bodegas. They could do with the business! Finally, give a call to Cookie Lommel, our Area Director in LA (323-658-5500). Cookie has the same problem about shopping - see how she's solving it! 37449 88 23_Re: Picket Line Dilemma0_14_LHIAM1@aol.com29_Wed, 29 Oct 2003 18:45:28 EST561_US-ASCII I don't understand your quandary Susie I understand that it is difficult to find alternate means to fill your larder when you won't cross a picket line. Certainly not as difficult as it is for the strikers to fill theirs though. I understand your anger and frustration at the rank indifference of management not to talk with their striking workers -- that is certainly not a situation that will improve if you cross the picket line. I am reminded of Phil Ochs (oy I sure hope I am not bringing back to life the Ochs vs. Dylan debate).... "love me [...] 37538 32 23_Re: Picket Line Dilemma0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Wed, 29 Oct 2003 18:45:39 EST515_US-ASCII It isn't about "toughing it out"- it's about whether or not I agree with all of this. I have to tell you, I can not get health insurance- my employer doesn't provide it, and it would cost me over $600 a month because of my age. When I worked at a "business" some years ago- my employer paid most of it and I paid a small portion. I am not sure I agree with the union's stand on all of this. So- do I "vote straight party line?"- not cross because I believe in "labor?"----I decided in the recall that [...] 37571 292 60_My Anachronistic Home- From Daniel Gordis to Prof. Tony Judt11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org31_Wed, 29 Oct 2003 18:24:37 -0600526_ISO-8859-1

My Anachronistic Home- From Daniel Gordis to Prof. Tony Judt of NYU

Professor Tony Judt New York University tony.judt@nyu.edu



Dear Professor Judt,

Though I'm sure you weren't wondering, I'll begin by telling you that we had a pretty nice Shabbat here in Jerusalem. The weather was beautiful, we had a house full of guests, there was a wedding across the street that went way into the night. And nothing blew up. Kind of an idyllic day here in Jerusalem. For the most part. [...] 37864 50 23_Re: Picket Line Dilemma0_15_Emabear@aol.com29_Wed, 29 Oct 2003 19:27:01 EST487_US-ASCII I'm shopping Trader Joe's, which is less on everything except specialty foods and produce. I'm shopping for produce at the small produce store at Fairfax and Oakwood, the Iranian produce on Vanowen, east of Reseda, and Super Sal on Ventura, east of White Oak. All are much cheaper than the supermarkets and their produce is not cold storage, much better tasting. I agree to toughing it out. Most of the Ralph's and Von's parking lots out here in the West Valley are empty. Ellen 37915 57 31_Re: CIJR DAILY ISRANET BRIEFING15_Brian S. Cooper21_brian@cooperspace.net31_Wed, 29 Oct 2003 21:51:57 -0500594_iso-8859-1 Richard,

Maybe I missed some of this conversation -- if so, forgive me. Certainly there is a very real danger in the notion of a Jewish Democracy, given the current reality. But you must remember that this is the very point the Left has been yelling about for years. We cannot have BOTH the territories and their Palestinian inhabitants, AND a Jewish Democracy; if we keep the territories, we must give up EITHER Democracy, or the Jewish character of the State. But since I believe that ultimately (which seems much farther away than I once thought), we will detach from [...] 37973 173 31_Re: CIJR DAILY ISRANET BRIEFING13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Wed, 29 Oct 2003 22:20:10 -0500364_us-ascii If your parents were Americans and you were born overseas but registered as a citizen, you can register your children also born overseas and they have full rights to "aliyah" back to the US. This is also true of the British and other nationalities. The chain breaks when a generation foregoes their rights--then the next generation can't pick it up. [...] 38147 70 23_Re: Picket Line Dilemma0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Thu, 30 Oct 2003 00:17:06 EST564_US-ASCII It's interesting- we do business with Ralphs- they have promoted Israeli products and kosher foods; they subsidized the Jewish Calendar with Abucasis's art on it and they paid for the printing of the Haggadah in Israel which was distributed free in all Ralph's stores. I am not saying it is not possible- and even maybe "better" to do shopping at alternative places--what I am saying is I am not sure I agree with the unions all of the time. Why is it that criminals and grocery clerks can get free health care and I can't?....Why is it that we have [...] 38218 225 23_RE: Picket Line Dilemma0_25_batel_libes@earthlink.net31_Wed, 29 Oct 2003 22:29:37 -0800409_US-ASCII I don't believe you have to agree with every point to be on either side of an issue. It's the bigger picture that matters, not every single detail of the conflict.

-----Original Message----- From: owner-habonet@shamash.org [mailto:owner-habonet@shamash.org]On Behalf Of LiberHawke@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2003 9:17 PM To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: Re: Picket Line Dilemma [...] 38444 42 31_Re: CIJR DAILY ISRANET BRIEFING0_15_Emabear@aol.com29_Thu, 30 Oct 2003 01:38:12 EST170_US-ASCII Two of my grandchildren were born overseas, one in Israel, one in India. Once registered at the American Embassy they have full rights as Americans.

Ellen 38487 69 38_Re:rights over overseas born Americans14_Holtzer Family20_carmdave@urim.org.il31_Thu, 30 Oct 2003 09:47:15 +0200409_iso-8859-1 Almost right, Ellen. 1. To pass on American citizenship to THEIR children, they have to have resided in the US for 5 consecutive years before the age of 18. 2. Foreign born American citizens cannot become President. Nor be in the line of replacement for President (Vice, Speaker Pro Tem of the Senate, etc). They can, however, be Governor of California or even Secretary of State (Kissinger). [...] 38557 24 22_Re: supermarket strike0_15_RONOREN@aol.com31_Thu, 30 Oct 2003 03:35:11 -0500511_iso-8859-1 Susie, Yes, it's a quandry. I'm a current union worker who was out of work for a good chunk of 2000-01-02, at least partly due to work leaving California. But I've also been on strike for better health benefits and certainly would have a hard time providing decent health insurance for my family if it weren't for the union benefits. Ellen has the markets here nailed-I would only add one more, Whole Foods. Careful with the prices, but hard to beat the natural/healthy selection. Ron Orenstein [...] 38582 26 13_Law of Return6_meyers23_meyers@netvision.net.il31_Thu, 30 Oct 2003 12:39:33 +0200519_ISO-8859-1 Shalom Chevre, To clarify a point raised on Habonet, Germany also has a Law of Return and has taken in millions of Germans from Russia and other parts of Eastern Europe, some of whom had lived there for many centuries. Nechemia Meyers



------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 38609 71 38_Re:rights over overseas born Americans13_richard smith19_rdsmith1957@msn.com31_Thu, 30 Oct 2003 06:04:25 -0500351_iso-8859-1 Dave (Holtzer Family) wrote: "2. Foreign born American citizens cannot become President. Nor be in the line of replacement for President (Vice, Speaker Pro Tem of the Senate, etc). They can, however, be Governor of California or even Secretary of State (Kissinger)."

Not exactly true. People who are born American citizens, no matter 38681 85 23_Re: Picket Line Dilemma0_14_LHIAM1@aol.com29_Thu, 30 Oct 2003 07:08:40 EST607_US-ASCII Susie Confusion seems to run rampant through this cyberspace. Is there a demand that the workers are making that you don't think they deserve? If so then I can understand a possible conflict. Are you asking your former chaverim from Labor Zionism to condone your crossing a picket line and effectively assist management in keeping others from health care ... because you don't have it? Doesn't seem to me that keeping anyone else from getting something will bring you closer to your personal goal. Are you imagining that Ralph's will reward your loyalty to their store by improving your life? [...] 38767 83 22_Re: supermarket strike13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Thu, 30 Oct 2003 07:19:16 -0500303_ISO-8859-1 Dear Susie,

I have a lot of sympathy for your situation. This strike is 1) causing YOU time and money on your grocery bill and 2)the strikers are striking for benefits YOU don't get--health care. I don't have anything to help you out on the first one, but on the second one I do. [...] 38851 153 23_Re: Picket Line Dilemma14_aviva grosbard18_deang@bezeqint.net31_Thu, 30 Oct 2003 14:16:44 +0200441_ISO-8859-1 Susie-if you want to see a strike-pop over here next week(Israel) and see a whole country shut down! And I agree with you Hiam-the beat goes on-and they weren't only songs-at least I want to believe that when I dont have water,electricity,ambulances,buses,hospitals......Aviva ----- Original Message ----- From: LHIAM1@aol.com To: habonet@shamash.org Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 2:08 PM Subject: Re: Picket Line Dilemma [...] 39005 48 9_apartheid16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Thu, 30 Oct 2003 07:56:22 -0500280_us-ascii In Habonet 2741, Richard Smith rhetorically asks

> Couldn't South Africa of the apartheid period > have called itself a "white person's democracy?" > My literal response is that South Africa of the apartheid period was indeed a "white person's democracy." So what? 39054 20 38_Ma'ariv/ anthology of pain (in Hebrew)11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org31_Thu, 30 Oct 2003 07:20:42 -0600640_us-ascii http://images.maariv.co.il/channels/0/ART/567/094.html

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/

* * FREE JEWISH LEARNING * * Shamash invites you to join MyJewishLearning.com, a comprehensive, objective, authoritative and interactive learning resource in all areas of Judaism. Free membership via http://www.myjewishlearning.com/shamash ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 39075 160 9_Tony Judt3_leo18_leodie@isdn.net.il31_Thu, 30 Oct 2003 15:32:35 +0200269_us-ascii All the discussion concerning the opinions of Tony Judt did not mention that he himself is Jewish.

Sincerely, Prof. L. Diesendruck







Signature by www.signature-mail.com



39236 109 38_Re:rights over overseas born Americans4_sima19_simagr@telhai.ac.il31_Thu, 30 Oct 2003 19:38:55 +0200409_iso-8859-1 A little known fact that we found out the hard way - You can only register your foreign born child as a US citizen, if the American born parent resided in the USA 5 years prior to the age of 14 and 5 years after the age of 14.

We were not aware of this when we tried to register our kids. Their American born father made alia when he was 16, and they were therefore denied citizenship. [...] 39346 129 34_RE: [spam] Re: Picket Line Dilemma12_Stopak, Noam20_NStopak@orionsci.com31_Thu, 30 Oct 2003 09:35:24 -0500569_- Hi Sue,

It seems that you are saying that because you can't get healthcare that it is wrong for other workers to stand together to fight for benefits. How are the clerks at Ralph's to blame - Ralphs locked them out - who then has the onus to begin talking? At the risk of stating the obvious, you don't have healthcare because you do not work for an employer who provides it, and the employees haven't organized to change that. I suggest getting organized, either in the workplace or politically to change the situation rather than blaming others who are [...] 39476 120 33_re Lw of return-reply to Nechemia13_moshe sheskin24_moshes7@netvision.net.il55_Thu, 30 Oct 2003 10:28:14 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)620_iso-8859-1 Nechemia, shalom,

I infortunately didn't read the points made vis a vis Germany's law of return. It is interesting to note that the German law would be quite similar to Israel's. Thus, according to what you write (below), Germans are entitled to return to Germany no matter where they are born. If I remember correctly, Germany also has a law pertaining to non-Germans, residing in Germany and includes those that were born to foreigners. This law didn't prevent Germany from expelling Turkish citizens, many of them were born in Germany and we're Germans in every way. Even those that complained [...] 39597 126 33_Re: Picket Line Dilemma --to Hiam0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Thu, 30 Oct 2003 10:42:15 EST525_US-ASCII Yes and no to all of the above- Look- times change; the kibbutz is disappearing; I am questioning the "big picture" as Batel puts it- because I have been intimately involved in the whole union issue since it was one of the causes I lost my 20 year career to Canada. I saw people-friends lose their homes and families and go on welfare and "get lost" because of this. I asked Avi Lyons, maybe a couple of years ago, to explain how he could justify the behavior of the Unions out here and all I got was a "it's a [...] 39724 441 23_historical anachronisms16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Thu, 30 Oct 2003 11:28:19 -0500616_us-ascii The Judt article postulating Israel as an historical anachronism has engendered debate ranging far beyond Habonet. My oldest friend (we grew up together in DC) made aliya 20 years ago and now teaches Jewish philosophy at the Hebrew University. I'd forwarded to him the Judt piece and several other items. He has simultaneously corresponded about these articles with other acquaintances. He just forwarded to me one response that he wrote. It is poignant enough and pointed enough that I want to share it with Habonet. I think it addresses, in interesting ways and with great detail, many of the issues [...] 40166 50 33_Re: Picket Line Dilemma --to Hiam13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Thu, 30 Oct 2003 13:05:44 -0500573_ISO-8859-1 Labor issues and labor organizing are a lot more complicated that we ever thought 30, 40, or 50 years ago. THis isn't just true of the chanichim in Habonim. It is true of labor economists and international trade and business specialists.

As an economist, I would say that California didn't lose its film jobs because the unions organized too much but because they organized too little. What the last 2 decades have taught us is that there really is a global market in both capital and in labor and that this is as true in the high tech skills fields [...] 40217 69 33_Re: Picket Line Dilemma --to Hiam0_14_LHIAM1@aol.com29_Thu, 30 Oct 2003 13:14:18 EST356_US-ASCII Judy- Some people saw that there was a world union They were called socialists. Some say that the unions and the labor movement with it's lower targets and more immediate solutions more than anything else MIGHT have prevented the socialist revolution from being successful. Workers of the WORLD unite you have nothing to lose but your chains [...] 40287 681 96_Fw: Peace Movement or War on the Jews? - By Greg Yardley,FrontPageMagazine.com, October 28, 200314_Kleins Designs26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Thu, 30 Oct 2003 10:51:14 -0800334_windows-1255

----- Original Message ----- From: Marcia Plager To: Elly Krapek ; Justin Ible ; Israel and Marlene Zakai ; Baruch Eichenbaum ; Joyce Kishineff ; George Briggs Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2003 9:33 PM Subject: Fw: Peace Movement or War on the Jews? - By Greg Yardley,FrontPageMagazine.com, October 28, 2003 [...] 40969 107 23_Fw: A Prayer for Israel14_Kleins Designs26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Thu, 30 Oct 2003 11:05:47 -0800476_iso-8859-1 This isn't going to be everyone's cup of tea, but some may get a boost. Worth viewing. Do not access this if you hate the stuff Steve Klein passes along. You have been warned.

Steve (speaking for Steve)



----- Original Message ----- From: Marcia Plager To: Elly Krapek ; Justin Ible ; Israel and Marlene Zakai ; Baruch Eichenbaum ; Joyce Kishineff ; George Briggs Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2003 6:59 PM Subject: Fw: A Prayer for Israel [...] 41077 22 33_Re: Picket Line Dilemma --to Hiam0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Thu, 30 Oct 2003 14:05:47 EST403_US-ASCII Hian- that would be great- but many "workers of the world" are blowing up other "workers of the world."--what do you do then?- s

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 41100 35 33_RE: Picket Line Dilemma --to Hiam12_Stopak, Noam20_NStopak@orionsci.com31_Thu, 30 Oct 2003 14:22:36 -0500521_- Hi Sue,

I think you do what YOU can do. Every little bit helps or hurts. Support the workers or support those they are striking against. You make the call.

Noam

-----Original Message----- From: LiberHawke@aol.com [mailto:LiberHawke@aol.com] Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 2:06 PM To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: Re: Picket Line Dilemma --to Hiam



Hian- that would be great- but many "workers of the world" are blowing up other "workers of the world."--what do you do then?- s [...] 41136 209 31_Re: CIJR DAILY ISRANET BRIEFING14_Kleins Designs26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Thu, 30 Oct 2003 11:25:56 -0800545_iso-8859-1 Richard

You may need to check the letter you wrote. Unless I am way off base (wouldn't be the first time), did you not mean non-citizens that happen to be Jews that would like to have (or need to have) a country to come to?

You also claim that the need has passed. You may be the only person on the planet that hasn't seen the resurrection of full-blown anti-semitism. The need has not passed. Not by a longshot. I felt like adding "How could you even go there?", but I guess that would be a dumb question. You may [...] 41346 78 33_Re: Picket Line Dilemma --to Hiam0_14_LHIAM1@aol.com29_Thu, 30 Oct 2003 14:21:43 EST556_US-ASCII Susie, The truth is that most of the "blowing up" in this world are explosions "manufactured" by those in power to either maintain their power or increase it. Generally it ain't the worker who has EVER been in power. But even if that were the case it certainly wouldn't change how you as a disenfranchised worker, cheated out of your basic human rights by capitalist pigs should be responding to your brothers in labor. :) Give it a rest Susie - the men and women on the picket line are fighting for the same things you want. Support them or [...] 41425 87 31_Re: CIJR DAILY ISRANET BRIEFING14_Kleins Designs26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Thu, 30 Oct 2003 11:29:53 -0800382_iso-8859-1 JON

I'm sorry. I didn't realize my fonts were set on 10 default. Will go to larger. Thanks for the heads-up! ----- Original Message ----- From: Jonathan Baum To: habonet@shamash.org Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2003 8:58 AM Subject: Re: CIJR DAILY ISRANET BRIEFING



Hey Steve and Richard, could you guys use bigger fonts? I'm squinting at my monitor. 41513 148 23_Re: A Prayer for Israel14_aviva grosbard18_deang@bezeqint.net31_Thu, 30 Oct 2003 21:31:18 +0200458_ISO-8859-1 that was more than a little strange....but the singing was beautiful-do you know by any chance who was singing? If so-please let me know? I shared this with some "born again" Christian friends of mine-I wonder what their reaction will be.Shabbat Shalom Steve and keep "passing along" :) \Aviva ----- Original Message ----- From: Kleins Designs To: habonet@shamash.org Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 9:05 PM Subject: Fw: A Prayer for Israel [...] 41662 70 12_Picket lines14_Kleins Designs26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Thu, 30 Oct 2003 11:38:57 -0800499_iso-8859-1 Sue

Never thought it would happen. I crossed the picket line. Ralph's has too good to me and Jewish customers and to the people working for Ralph's to try to hurt them this way. The unions are digging in their heels and hurting the goose and the eggs. $20 a month personal contribution for good health insurance is not out of line. Supermarket profit is mostly razor-thin as it is. This is a non-issue, and Pete and Woody would have agreed. This is not what they were fighting for! 41733 46 33_Re: Picket Line Dilemma --to Hiam0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Thu, 30 Oct 2003 15:08:08 EST370_US-ASCII

In a message dated 10/30/03 11:26:48 AM, LHIAM1@aol.com writes:

<< Give it a rest Susie - the men and women on the picket line are fighting for the same things you want. Support them or don't support them but don't find excuses and rationalizations for your decisions. Either you are part of the solution or you are part of the problem - >> [...] 41780 48 31_Re: CIJR DAILY ISRANET BRIEFING13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il31_Thu, 30 Oct 2003 22:29:34 +020033_iso-8859-1 OK, thanks.

Jon 41829 74 23_Re: Picket Line Dilemma0_13_JLCAA@aol.com29_Thu, 30 Oct 2003 16:09:54 EST583_US-ASCII In a message dated 10/29/03 6:51:26 PM Eastern Standard Time, LiberHawke@aol.com writes:



> the unions helped drive out the film > industry from California,

No Susie, the unions did not drive the film industry out of California! There are still plenty of films made in the US. But it is true that money, like water, flows to the lowest point and Canada is a lot cheaper than the US - They have universal health care that film companies in the US have to pay for. The Canadian dollar is cheaper than the US dollar therefore, if you are buying sets, [...] 41904 52 23_Re: Picket Line Dilemma0_13_JLCAA@aol.com29_Thu, 30 Oct 2003 16:11:20 EST159_US-ASCII In a message dated 10/29/03 7:28:17 PM Eastern Standard Time, Emabear@aol.com writes:



> I agree to toughing it out.

Kol Hakavod! 41957 129 31_Fw: CIJR DAILY ISRANET BRIEFING13_richard smith19_rdsmith1957@msn.com31_Thu, 30 Oct 2003 17:13:56 -0500533_iso-8859-1

----- Original Message ----- From: richard smith To: Brian S. Cooper Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 6:26 AM Subject: Re: CIJR DAILY ISRANET BRIEFING



Cooper wrote: "We cannot have BOTH the territories and their Palestinian inhabitants, AND a Jewish Democracy..."

The thread began with a discussion of the Tony Judt article from the New York Review of Books and someone's response that Israel is a "liberal democracy." I pointed out that Israeli "democracy" was not so "liberal" at all. [...] 42087 23 16_Re: Picket lines0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Thu, 30 Oct 2003 17:12:54 EST482_US-ASCII Thanks Steve--glad someone else is echoing my thoughts- although I find it hard to actually do the physical actions fo crossing- But if they don't start to talk to each other soo, I might..Romans????.......s

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 42111 62 16_Re: Picket lines13_richard smith19_rdsmith1957@msn.com31_Thu, 30 Oct 2003 17:28:10 -0500192_iso-8859-1 "This is a non-issue, and Pete and Woody would have agreed. This is not what they were fighting for!"

Pete ain't dead, and though it isn't necessarily my view at all, I don't 42174 52 31_To Avi--Re: Picket Line Dilemma0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Thu, 30 Oct 2003 17:30:36 EST598_US-ASCII

In a message dated 10/30/03 1:46:45 PM, JLCAA@aol.com writes:

<< No Susie, the unions did not drive the film industry out of California! There are still plenty of films made in the US. >>

Well, Avi- we can argue this right and left, but you are wrong- "Runaway production" started when producers could no longer afford to pay grip/electric/costumers, etc such high wages ( along, of course, with Star salaries) and so they went to "right to work" states where they could do non-union productions and get away with it. And you are wrong about a lot of films made [...] 42227 71 13_Re: apartheid13_richard smith19_rdsmith1957@msn.com31_Thu, 30 Oct 2003 17:33:49 -0500436_iso-8859-1 Elihu wrote: "My literal response is that South Africa of the apartheid period was indeed a "white person's democracy." So what? "

Perhaps you missed the earlier parts of this thread but I was responding to someone stating that while Israel might not be a "liberal democracy" but was a "Jewish democracy." My point was that a "Jewish democracy," like South Africa's "white person's democracy" is not really a democracy 42299 369 16_RE: Picket lines6_Kathee26_holycowfoods@earthlink.net31_Thu, 30 Oct 2003 16:32:23 -0800602_iso-8859-1 I wouldnt be so sure about that. I researched the issue a bit and its not as simple as a $5 a week contribution to their health plan.

The employers want to increase co-payments, deductibles and caps on payments for prescriptions and surgeries. This amounts to a 50% cut in medical benefits that would shift a billion dollars in health care cost onto the workers over the term of the contract. They are basically trying to undo grocery jobs as family wage job and Wal-martize the unionized grocery workers. This despite the fact that that these supermarkets combined profits are [...] 42669 66 0_13_richard smith19_rdsmith1957@msn.com31_Thu, 30 Oct 2003 21:09:24 -0500374_iso-8859-1 Keith also was on the receiving end of some apparent negativity. The Dixie Chicks, mired in controversy over lead singer Natalie Maines' negative comments against President Bush in March, did a satellite hookup from an Austin concert, playing one of their songs. Maines sported a shirt that read "FUTK." One can assume Maines was not wishing Keith a good evening. 42736 53 3_Re:13_richard smith19_rdsmith1957@msn.com31_Thu, 30 Oct 2003 21:11:41 -050011_iso-8859-1 42790 22 33_Dennis Ross article worth reading11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org31_Thu, 30 Oct 2003 21:09:56 -0600660_us-ascii

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/story/story.php?storyID=13118



------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/

* * FREE JEWISH LEARNING * * Shamash invites you to join MyJewishLearning.com, a comprehensive, objective, authoritative and interactive learning resource in all areas of Judaism. Free membership via http://www.myjewishlearning.com/shamash ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 42813 57 16_Re: Picket lines0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Thu, 30 Oct 2003 22:39:57 EST281_UTF-8 In a message dated 10/30/2003 4:33:25 PM Pacific Standard Time, holycowfoods@earthlink.net writes: How can you say that they are too good to the people working for them, if they ’ve chosen to go on strike! The Ralphs employees were locked out....By the way- who are you?..s 42871 271 24_The Problem With Passion0_18_liberhawke@aol.com37_Thu, 30 Oct 2003 19:53:59 -0800 (PST)581_us-ascii



*Please note, the sender's email address has not been verified.





onward...







********************

If you are having trouble with any of the links in this message, or if the URL's are not appearing as links, please follow the instructions at the bottom of this email.

Title: The Problem With Passion



Copy and paste the following into your Web browser to access the sent link: http://www.emailthis.clickability.com/et/emailThis?clickMap=viewThis&etMailToID=1192814720&pt=Y [...] 43143 54 48_give what you can, take what you need, Freecycle14_Albert Kaufman18_albi@earthlink.net31_Thu, 30 Oct 2003 23:12:16 -0800604_iso-8859-1 Olah compadres,

It's been a while since I've been on the list. And I'm up to something that I want to share with you all. A little revolution. And, are we not about social change in Habonim? Yes, we are.

So, I heard about freecycle, something started in Tucson this Spring. Started one of my own in Portland, got a little publicity and suddenly we're up to 1,300 people giving things to each other. Saving stuff from the landfills, building community, that sort of thing. It's really remarkable, actually. I'm meeting people constantly who are telling about this thing they [...] 43198 33 33_Beware the American Law of Return11_Sam Bergman22_sambergman@comcast.net31_Fri, 31 Oct 2003 03:22:56 -0500539_us-ascii Just as a matter of curiosity, the American "Citizenship Inheritance" grants citizenship to a foreign born child of TWO American parents if ONE of them was resident in the US for ONE year at ANY TIME. This happens to be the case of my grandson, Itamar. His father (my son) was resident in the US for a total of seven years, and the mother for three -- all as young children. However, we have not found a way to prove their residence (many years ago) -- no one keeps school or medical records, or any other kind of records we [...] 43232 41 33_Re: Picket Line Dilemma --to Hiam0_16_Aborciah@aol.com29_Fri, 31 Oct 2003 03:27:30 EST275_US-ASCII >From what I understand, the $5 and $15 increases are just the tip of the iceberg. With significant cuts in service, the effective cost to employees would be more like $95-$100. (Another reason that it's time for health care reform. Check out SB921 by Sheila Kuehl.) 43274 39 25_JPost Article From Friend0_18_leodie@isdn.net.il37_Fri, 31 Oct 2003 12:30:39 +0200 (IST)837_- Your friend, Leo Diesendruck, has sent you the following article from JPost.com:

More on Judt's article

Eye on the Media: The controversy of Israel

Since when are the Shaba farms "disputed"?

Click here to view the entire article: http://www.jpost.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1067489842905

AOL Users click here to view the article: http://www.jpost.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1067489842905

Don't miss out on any of the important breaking news stories and in-depth analysis about Israel you can only get from The Jerusalem Post. Sign up for our EMail Edition today. Click on the link below to sign up: [...] 43314 145 32_Meir Shalev, Hertzberg and Rabin12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Fri, 31 Oct 2003 15:15:01 +0200340_iso-8859-1 Haverot/im

We are about to mark Yitzhak Rabin's eighth yahr tzeit. Meir Shalev's article below written on November 11, 1995 for the shloshim of that courageous leader's assassination stands out for its trenchant prose, its enduring love for the man and Shalev's vow "we shall neither forget nor forgive." * * * * * * [...] 43460 65 52_Thansk to Habonet--Re: Picket Line Dilemma --to Hiam0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Fri, 31 Oct 2003 09:27:07 EST584_US-ASCII >From what I understand, it is basically a participation plan like everyone else who has insurance has- they will pay a few dollars for the plan, then participate in co-payments for office visits, just like the rest of the world does in America --that is- people who have health insurance. Like every argument- both sides are making points which may or may not be true to win support....the bottom line is they are being asked to participate in the cost of health insurance, whereas before they didn't. Remember- they get paid between 18-30 per hour ( and it is correct [...] 43526 306 27_Background on the CA Strike0_13_JLCAA@aol.com29_Fri, 31 Oct 2003 12:03:12 EST653_US-ASCII



A Watershed Strike

by KELLY CANDAELE & PETER DREIER The NATION - October 23, 2003 The strike of 70,000 Southern California retail food workers, which started on October 11, may be the first in a series of battles that could ultimately shape the future of labor-management relations throughout the United States. The United Food and Commercial Workers (UFCW), one of the nation's largest private-sector unions, has geared up for what could be a prolonged job action. "If they break our backs here," noted Sean Harrigan, UFCW States Council director, "they [employers] will view this as an opportunity to pillage UFCW [...] 43833 34 31_Re: Background on the CA Strike0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Fri, 31 Oct 2003 12:47:44 EST510_US-ASCII

In a message dated 10/31/03 9:14:38 AM, JLCAA@aol.com writes:

<< For instance, the California Public Employees Retirement System (CALPERS) has $145 billion in assets and is the largest public pension fund in the nation, while the California State Teachers' Retirement System (CALSTRS) has close to a $100 billion portfolio. These two funds, through indexed investments, own part of virtually every large corporation in the United States, including the three supermarket chains. >> [...] 43868 162 37_Re: To Susie--Re: Picket Line Dilemma0_13_JLCAA@aol.com29_Fri, 31 Oct 2003 13:20:08 EST637_US-ASCII In a message dated 10/30/03 5:42:06 PM Eastern Standard Time, LiberHawke@aol.com writes:



> The demands of unions are not any longer in the best interest of either its > members or the public

Susie, you've made so many anti-union assertions in your postings its hard to know where to begin. However, the over-riding impression is your frustration over not being a union member and having access to union membership benefits - healthcare, pensions, etc. That frustration says more than your complaints about part of the film industry that has run to Canada to find cheaper production costs. You have to [...] 44031 410 41_Fw: SHAME ON YOU AMERICAN-HATING LIBERALS14_Kleins Designs26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Fri, 31 Oct 2003 10:25:52 -0800531_iso-8859-1 I know this brings little new to the table, but it's good to know there is at least one Brit that thinks the way he does. Well, at least two, if you count Tony (Blair).

Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: Marcia Plager To: Bill Ronayne ; Peter Van Ark ; Eitay ; Sherry and Angela Roby Rigaud ; Odis and Nita Richardson ; Frank McCoy ; Dorothy Shapely ; Donna Pulliam ; Evan and Julie Rossio ; Randy and Gloria Adams ; Ernest Brown ; Geoff and Linda Remes ; Lynn Johnson ; Marlene and Max Gasser ; Glenn [...] 44442 270 23_Fw: Nestle closes plant14_Kleins Designs26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Fri, 31 Oct 2003 10:27:44 -0800537_iso-8859-1

----- Original Message ----- From: Marcia Plager To: Bill Ronayne ; Peter Van Ark ; Eitay ; Sherry and Angela Roby Rigaud ; Odis and Nita Richardson ; Frank McCoy ; Dorothy Shapely ; Donna Pulliam ; Evan and Julie Rossio ; Randy and Gloria Adams ; Ernest Brown ; Geoff and Linda Remes ; Lynn Johnson ; Marlene and Max Gasser ; Glenn Petty ; Esta Dilley ; Steve and Monica Huss ; Jean Binnion ; Peggy Felice ; Jackie Krieg ; Yankele and Iris Sent: Friday, October 31, 2003 9:33 AM Subject: Fw: Nestle closes plant [...] 44713 455 31_Fw: Background on the CA Strike14_Kleins Designs26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Fri, 31 Oct 2003 10:30:56 -0800685_iso-8859-1 This article covers the strike more fully than a lot of the stuff I've read. It isn't both sides, but a case is certainly presented well.

Steve



----- Original Message ----- From: JLCAA@aol.com To: habonet@shamash.org Sent: Friday, October 31, 2003 9:03 AM Subject: Background on the CA Strike







A Watershed Strike

by KELLY CANDAELE & PETER DREIER The NATION - October 23, 2003 The strike of 70,000 Southern California retail food workers, which started on October 11, may be the first in a series of battles that could ultimately shape the future of labor-management relations throughout the United States. The [...] 45169 64 52_Join the JLC Rally in Support of Supermarket Workers0_13_JLCAA@aol.com29_Fri, 31 Oct 2003 13:31:11 EST632_US-ASCII Contact: Cookie Lomel, 323-658-5500 email: JLCLA2@aol.com

When: Sunday, November 2, 2003, 11 am. Where: West Hollywood Pavillions, 8696 Santa Monica Blvd.(cross street; Robertson Blvd) Who: Dozens of labor officials, Jewish community members and elected officials. What: Picket and rally in support of United Food and Commercial Workers (UFCW) members on strike against Vons and locked out workers at Ralphs and Albertsons. A rabbi will lead a prayer service in front of the Pavillions and the crowd will gather and form a human billboard along a busy street, urging people to respect the supermarket workers strike. 45234 60 37_Re: To Susie--Re: Picket Line Dilemma0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Fri, 31 Oct 2003 13:38:41 EST595_US-ASCII

In a message dated 10/31/03 10:20:58 AM, JLCAA@aol.com writes:

<< However, the over-riding impression is your frustration over not being a union member and having access to union membership benefits - healthcare, pensions, etc. >>

Well Avi- we could go on and on abourt all of this. Yes, I am frustrated- but not because I am not a unionmember- it is the whole healthcare thing....and I know that "companies" are in it for the bottom line- whether it is a film company or a supermarket chain. But there is a big greay area here--One big chain out here in LA- [...] 45295 2268 10_Fw: Poster14_Kleins Designs26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Fri, 31 Oct 2003 11:07:39 -0800565_iso-8859-1 Passing along the Rutgers poster for those who haven't seen it.

Steve

ps: Attachment does not have to be opened.



----- Original Message ----- From: "angela" To: "Kleins Designs" Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2003 4:34 AM Subject: Poster



> Hi Steve - Pls find attached the Rutgers poster. It is sickening stuff, > coming out of that evil personified, Barbie look alikes painted red lips, > but that was what I based my letter on. > > All the best > > Angela 47564 86 31_Re: CIJR DAILY ISRANET BRIEFING14_Kleins Designs26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Fri, 31 Oct 2003 11:24:01 -0800279_iso-8859-1 YOU ARE SO WELCOME!

STEVE

Now I just have to remember to do it. ----- Original Message ----- From: Jonathan Baum To: habonet@shamash.org Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 12:29 PM Subject: Re: CIJR DAILY ISRANET BRIEFING



OK, thanks.

47651 90 31_Re: CIJR DAILY ISRANET BRIEFING14_Kleins Designs26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Fri, 31 Oct 2003 11:25:41 -0800292_iso-8859-1 PS Jon

How do I set a larger-font default?

Thanks for the help.

Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: Jonathan Baum To: habonet@shamash.org Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 12:29 PM Subject: Re: CIJR DAILY ISRANET BRIEFING



OK, thanks.

47742 358 62_Fw: F.Y.I.: Hadassah on 60 Minutes on Sunday, November 2, 200314_Kleins Designs26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Fri, 31 Oct 2003 11:26:08 -0800295_- Dear Colleagues,

We are excited to let you know that CBS TV will be airing a segment about Hadassah Medical Center at Ein Kerem on 60 Minutes on Sunday, November 2, 2003 at 7:00 PM EST. Please check your local listing for station information and broadcast time in your local area. [...] 48101 294 16_RE: Picket lines6_Kathee26_holycowfoods@earthlink.net31_Fri, 31 Oct 2003 11:35:48 -0800585_UTF-8 ....By the way- who are you?..s



this sounds like the line I just heard in Adam Sandler’s “Anger Management” movie…not quite sure what to say: how about: Gilboa 70-75, MB yood bet, Workshop Maayan Baruch, ….Rosh Gilboa 81..mother of two current habonimers,, former –gezerite (84-90), currently co-owner of Holy Cow Vegetarian Foods, and Holy Cow Café (On the University of Oregon campus)….For background though, I have been in the natural foods industry these 13 years and know quite a bit about the industry…does this answer your question? [...] 48396 21 16_Re: Picket lines0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Fri, 31 Oct 2003 14:53:46 EST657_US-ASCII No- I just wanted to know your name!!!- which I still don't know!!!-sue

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/

* * FREE JEWISH LEARNING * * Shamash invites you to join MyJewishLearning.com, a comprehensive, objective, authoritative and interactive learning resource in all areas of Judaism. Free membership via http://www.myjewishlearning.com/shamash ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 48418 122 37_The SF Chronicle and stupid white men13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il31_Fri, 31 Oct 2003 21:58:42 +0200527_windows-1255 Bowling for credibility

Thursday, October 30, 2003 2003 San Francisco Chronicle | Feedback



URL: sfgate.com/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2003/10/30/EDG0R2LB101.DTL



MICHAEL MOORE, the polemic filmmaker who likes to wear his "progressive'' politics on his plaid sleeves, has made a fortune from bashing doyens of corporate greed. But apparently the provocative Moore doesn't mind the perks of celebrity -- even when they bear the label of big-time corporate America. [...] 48541 32 16_RE: Picket lines6_Kathee26_holycowfoods@earthlink.net31_Fri, 31 Oct 2003 12:11:29 -0800598_US-ASCII Kathee Lavine.

-----Original Message----- From: owner-habonet@shamash.org [mailto:owner-habonet@shamash.org]On Behalf Of LiberHawke@aol.com Sent: Friday, October 31, 2003 11:54 AM To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: Re: Picket lines

No- I just wanted to know your name!!!- which I still don't know!!!-sue



------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 48574 112 31_Re: CIJR DAILY ISRANET BRIEFING13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il31_Fri, 31 Oct 2003 22:13:02 +0200341_iso-8859-1 To change the font, style, and size of text You can change the way the text looks for all your messages or you can make changes to selected text within a message.

To change the text style for all messages 1.. On the Tools menu, click Options.

2.. Click the Compose tab, and then click the Font Settings button. [...] 48687 168 31_Sue: WHO ARE YOU & Picket lines6_Kathee26_holycowfoods@earthlink.net31_Fri, 31 Oct 2003 12:17:38 -0800134_UTF-8

I’m not sure why that last one was sent twice, sorry…I thought I answered: Kathee Lavine. Would I know you?

48856 68 31_Re: Background on the CA Strike0_13_JLCAA@aol.com29_Fri, 31 Oct 2003 15:37:02 EST539_US-ASCII In a message dated 10/31/2003 12:48:48 PM Eastern Standard Time, LiberHawke@aol.com writes:



> the California Public Employees Retirement System (CALPERS) has > $145 > billion in assets and is the largest public pension fund in the nation, > while > the > California State Teachers' Retirement System (CALSTRS) has close to a $100 > billion portfolio. These two funds, through indexed investments, own part of > > virtually every large corporation in the United States, including the three > supermarket chains [...] 48925 167 37_Re: To Susie--Re: Picket Line Dilemma0_13_JLCAA@aol.com29_Fri, 31 Oct 2003 16:23:44 EST458_US-ASCII In a message dated 10/31/2003 1:41:16 PM Eastern Standard Time, LiberHawke@aol.com writes:



> unions feel all management is evil.

Tell me something- The union pension > funds (from the article you posted) > has billions of dollars in it--aren't they powerful? ( byt he way- they OWN > stock in the companies they are striking!--how absurd!)....then why don't they > force something to happen for national helath > care?... [...] 49093 22 31_Re: Background on the CA Strike0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Fri, 31 Oct 2003 17:07:59 EST418_US-ASCII It seems a little of a conflict of interest when you strike against the company you own- or are the unions also guilty of "money grubbing?"...s

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 49116 21 37_Re: To Susie--Re: Picket Line Dilemma0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Fri, 31 Oct 2003 17:09:56 EST635_US-ASCII Avi- thanks for your input- and shabbat shalom--s

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/

* * FREE JEWISH LEARNING * * Shamash invites you to join MyJewishLearning.com, a comprehensive, objective, authoritative and interactive learning resource in all areas of Judaism. Free membership via http://www.myjewishlearning.com/shamash ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 49138 151 27_Re: Fw: Nestle closes plant13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Fri, 31 Oct 2003 18:29:11 -0500555_us-ascii Nestles is not some nice candy company as we tend to think of it in the US; Nestles is one of the worst corporate citizens on the global. Activitists have begged the US government not to let them buy up other companies, but being a nasty horrible company is not a reason to prevent a merger under the antitrust laws. Activitists have begged cities and states not to give this company subsidies too but being nasty and horrible is not important if they bring jobs to the local community.. People have pleaded with the FDA and USDA not to let [...] 49290 330 23_Re: Nestle closes plant12_Esther Cohen22_richard.steacy@gte.net31_Fri, 31 Oct 2003 22:58:03 -0500486_iso-8859-1 a consideration: while it would be great if companies weren't taking their operations out of the us, those in the us don't necessarily deserve our support - nestle, for instance, was boycotted some years ago for their practices regarding sales and marketing of baby formula in underdeveloped countries, and is currently on the list of those companies that don't support Fair Trade practices - see more on this at http://www.globalexchange.org/campaigns/fairtrade/cocoa/ [...]