1 SHAMASH.ORG /usr/www/wwwhc/listserv/archives/habonet August 2003
2 133 36_Re: Machaneh, new and old traditions15_Judith R Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Fri, 01 Aug 2003 00:15:01 -0400589_iso-8859-1 Dear Richard,<br><br>You injure my pride! As a madricha, I was "la artiste"--sentenced by my "talent" (quite minor to be sure) to the "melechet yad" with insufficient materials and cursed by wolf spiders inhabiting the one cabinet with some interesting possibility (which I, as an arachnaphobe, did not ever open.)<br><br>As a bonah, I was a member of the more tame of the two "chug encounter" groups. Mine kept its clothes on, except for a midnight skinny dipping session that I missed because I luckily managed to catch a cold that day (and, not being at all eager to go [...]
136 48 36_Re: Machaneh, new and old traditions20_Naomi Goldberg Honor18_naomijgh@yahoo.com37_Thu, 31 Jul 2003 21:35:48 -0700 (PDT)337_us-ascii Richard--<br><br>Remember how strait-laced all the Israelis were back then? Nadav (was he the one who was crazed?) and Yigal (was his last name really Yisraeli?). And the summer of John Mate as Rosh Machaneh, when there really did come close to being no rules.<br><br>And people still let their kids go to this place?? ;-) [...]
185 56 36_Re: Machaneh, new and old traditions13_richard smith19_rdsmith1957@msn.com30_Fri, 1 Aug 2003 01:43:43 -040083_iso-8859-1 Judy, I was kidding, because, even if you don't remember, you weren't at
242 60 36_Re: Machaneh, new and old traditions19_Orit Lowy Chicherio16_oritil@yahoo.com37_Thu, 31 Jul 2003 22:47:47 -0700 (PDT)452_us-ascii Funny thing, Naomi. My parents, knowing what they know about camp, keep asking how I send my children there. Just tonight, my older daughter was giving us quite an animated rendition of first-session 2003, and I was both jealous of and grateful for her time there. The grandparents had to agree that it was a wonderful experience for her, including the encounterlike episodes. Richard, next time you go for a kumsitz, let me know....Orit [...]
303 60 36_Re: Machaneh, new and old traditions15_Judith R Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Fri, 01 Aug 2003 08:50:23 -0400454_us-ascii The encounter groups were in 1970, so there were "no rules" long before the summer that will live in infamy. I spent that legendary summer under the watchful eye of our hero, Ken Bob, at MB.<br><br>Love, Judy<br><br>richard smith wrote:<br><br>> <?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" />Judy, I was > kidding, because, even if you don't remember, you weren't at Mosh in > 1972. Were you not KMBet 71 and first year madrichah 73?
364 47 36_Re: Machaneh, new and old traditions15_Judith R Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Fri, 01 Aug 2003 09:08:15 -0400340_us-ascii My mother, who went to Mosh herself one summer (then Gordonia) before the family moved to Denver and whose older brother and sister wen for many summers, never ever questioned my sending the kids. Of course, I was very careful about what I told her. However, as the following story illustrates, she knew more than she let on. [...]
412 158 36_RE: Machaneh, new and old traditions12_Stopak, Noam20_NStopak@orionsci.com30_Fri, 1 Aug 2003 09:11:30 -0400510_- And I thought I was savvy to what was going on in 1970 - escaped the notice of this Amel entirely. Can't believe Steve Schrier (sp?) went for that. I will nit pick and say 1 year is not exactly "long before the summer that will live in infamy". My recollection was that the "do your own thing" summer was 1971 when John Mate was Rosh. Can't manage to dredge up the name of rhe rosh in 1972 - can someone help me? Maybe my buddy Richard Schmidt can help :-) I'm also curious who the madrich from CA was, [...]
571 66 36_Re: Machaneh, new and old traditions13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il30_Fri, 1 Aug 2003 16:16:03 +0200299_iso-8859-1 Judy, I think your memory is failing you. 1970 is the year I was at Machaneh Bonim: MB Chet (Rosh: Shimon Schwartz of Kfar Blum). You were in Michael's MB in '72. The "Summer of Love" at Mosh (Rosh: Jon Mate) was in 1971 when I was a first-year madrich at Galil (Rosh: Chaim Sober). [...]
638 60 36_Re: Machaneh, new and old traditions0_17_Aviva5675@aol.com28_Fri, 1 Aug 2003 09:39:00 EDT363_US-ASCII My Ariana is third generation at Tavor. This is her third summer (Chotrim now) and first year going both sessions. Her grandmother, Marilyn Sherman, put her time in as business manager with us three kiddies,myself and my brother Mitch and sister Rachel along for the ride. My parents met at a Habonim (or whatever it was specifically then) meeting. [...]
699 39 36_RE: Machaneh, new and old traditions20_Naomi Goldberg Honor18_naomijgh@yahoo.com36_Fri, 1 Aug 2003 06:41:14 -0700 (PDT)355_us-ascii Noam--<br><br>Was Benji Glazer rosh in '72? Rachel Velelli was our KMBet madricha that summer and I am pretty sure that Ricky was there and the KM madrich was Carl, whose last name escapes me. Tammy -- you out there?<br><br>With the change of location, I guess people can't row over to Pier 7 anymore. What do kids do to get in trouble now? [...]
739 159 36_Re: Machaneh, new and old traditions0_14_KBob24@aol.com28_Fri, 1 Aug 2003 09:54:48 EDT540_US-ASCII In a message dated 8/1/2003 8:39:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time, gelman@erols.com writes:<br><br>> I spent that legendary summer under the watchful eye of our hero, Ken Bob, > at MB.<br><br>You make me blush :-).<br><br>I do like your choice of words "watchful." I was all of 19 when that summer began, I was rosh machaneh for 16 and 17 year olds and every member of my tsevet was older than I was.My mission as set out by the merkaz of Habonim was to make it a "movement" summer and less "out of control" than MB Tet (I am sure [...]
899 51 36_Re: Machaneh, new and old traditions0_14_KBob24@aol.com28_Fri, 1 Aug 2003 09:56:03 EDT189_US-ASCII In a message dated 8/1/2003 9:42:02 AM Eastern Daylight Time, naomijgh@yahoo.com writes:<br><br>> KM madrich was Carl, whose > last name escapes me.<br><br>Carl Goldman?<br><br>Ken
951 51 36_RE: Machaneh, new and old traditions12_Stopak, Noam20_NStopak@orionsci.com30_Fri, 1 Aug 2003 10:06:27 -0400399_- Yes, Ken is correct about Carl Goldman, and also about his observations about kids and the moral/social issues.<br><br>I'm pretty sure the Avi Ben David/Benji Glazer summer was 1973. I think the name I was looking for was Reuven Gen in 1972. Emily had a blast at the big reunion 3 summers ago but doesn't remember now. I'll let you know what she thinks after Sunday (uless I see you there?). [...]
1003 52 36_Re: Machaneh, new and old traditions19_Orit Lowy Chicherio16_oritil@yahoo.com36_Fri, 1 Aug 2003 07:04:32 -0700 (PDT)391_us-ascii Wasn't Chaim the Rosh at Mosh one summer? O.<br><br>Jonathan Baum <jonbaum@sasa.org.il> wrote:Judy, I think your memory is failing you. 1970 is the year I was at Machaneh Bonim: MB Chet (Rosh: Shimon Schwartz of Kfar Blum). You were in Michael's MB in '72. The "Summer of Love" at Mosh (Rosh: Jon Mate) was in 1971 when I was a first-year madrich at Galil (Rosh: Chaim Sober). [...]
1056 62 31_Re: 70 Years of Habonim Camping0_14_KBob24@aol.com28_Fri, 1 Aug 2003 10:41:41 EDT303_US-ASCII In a message dated 7/31/2003 3:57:15 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Marshlf@aol.com writes:<br><br>> the info that i have seen so far about advertising in chadashot does not > have > ad specs included, e.g., how big is half page, quarter page; do you prefer > hard copy or digital images, etc. [...]
1119 107 36_RE: Machaneh, new and old traditions12_Stopak, Noam20_NStopak@orionsci.com30_Fri, 1 Aug 2003 10:53:37 -0400437_- Orit,<br><br>Seems unlikely - I don't recall a sober rosh any of my summers at Mosh.<br><br>Just kidding!!!! :-)<br><br>Noam<br><br>-----Original Message----- From: Orit Lowy Chicherio [mailto:oritil@yahoo.com] Sent: Friday, August 01, 2003 10:05 AM To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: Re: Machaneh, new and old traditions<br><br><br><br>Wasn't Chaim the Rosh at Mosh one summer? O.<br><br>Jonathan Baum <jonbaum@sasa.org.il> wrote: [...]
1227 46 36_Re: Machaneh, new and old traditions20_Naomi Goldberg Honor18_naomijgh@yahoo.com36_Fri, 1 Aug 2003 08:13:12 -0700 (PDT)544_us-ascii Ken--<br><br>"I was all of 19 when that summer began, I was rosh machaneh for 16 and 17 year olds and every member of my tsevet was older than I was."<br><br>We weren't kidding about that youth leading youth thing...In 1977 at Mosh, as far as I could tell, Joe Ruby and I were the only ones on tsevet (not counting bayit and trailer types) who had actually finished undergraduate degrees. I hadn't gone on Workshop and was on my way that fall to Israel for a year with Sherut La-am. I don't know what Joe's excuse was. I'm pretty [...]
1274 37 21_a Sober rosh at Mosh?20_Naomi Goldberg Honor18_naomijgh@yahoo.com36_Fri, 1 Aug 2003 08:19:29 -0700 (PDT)368_us-ascii I don't recall Chaim as Rosh, but rather sgan rosh or merakez? I do recall him telling an ohel full of half dresed bonot that "unless you've got three, I'm really not interested in seeing..." I think he was trying to get us out to a peulah at the time, and had been threatening to come in assist us in exiting, when someone said, "But we're not decent." [...]
1312 82 36_Re: Machaneh, new and old traditions15_Judith R Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Fri, 01 Aug 2003 11:56:34 -0400532_us-ascii Sorry! I was denied KMBet at Mosh because you had to go 8 weeks and my parents insisted on torturing me by taking me on a "final" family vacation which was a 5 week cross country car trip from Md to California. Among the many low points, the lowest point was "touring" the Haight with my parents, who pointed and laughed at all the really cool street people. If I could have melted into the pavement and died, I would have been happy. But I hadn't fought too hard to go to Mosh because most of my closest friends went [...]
1395 60 36_Re: Machaneh, new and old traditions15_Judith R Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Fri, 01 Aug 2003 11:58:31 -0400529_us-ascii Reuven Gen was 73. He was rosh when I was a madricha before workshop and I do know what year that was (mostly because that war that broke out on Yom Kippur is never called THe72 war or THe 74 war.) Judy<br><br>"Stopak, Noam" wrote:<br><br>> Yes, Ken is correct about Carl Goldman, and also about his observations > about kids and the moral/social issues. > > I'm pretty sure the Avi Ben David/Benji Glazer summer was 1973. I think > the name I was looking for was Reuven Gen in 1972. Emily had a blast at the > big [...]
1456 58 25_Re: a Sober rosh at Mosh?14_aviva grosbard18_deang@bezeqint.net30_Fri, 1 Aug 2003 18:49:58 +0200584_iso-8859-1 Does a family who has 4 generations at Movement camps get a prize? My late fathers parents were caretakers (lived year round at whatever the"bayit" was called then at pre-Habonim camp. My parents met at Kvutzah. All the Lutskys from Berel on down to Sara attended Tavor and Berels kids did as well. My (Aviva) and Elana's daughters were Madrichot there before their army service. I was a little more than weirded out by some of my daughter"s stories on return-particularly about the boys in skirts on shabbat hill...but all in all she said she could see what we loved [...]
1515 31 23_Bring the Settlers Home12_David Fleiss20_dfleiss@pipeline.com36_Fri, 1 Aug 2003 13:04:34 -0400 (EDT)395_us-ascii To follow up on a non-machaneh thread:<br><br>Brit Tzedek v'Shalom has issued A Call to Bring the Settlers Home to Israel.<br><br>Brit Tzedek v'Shalom, the Jewish Alliance for Justice and Peace, is a national organization of American Jews deeply committed to Israel's well-being through the achievement of a negotiated settlement to the long-standing Israeli-Palestinian conflict. [...]
1547 74 46_Meanwhile, over at our cousins' summer camp...13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il30_Fri, 1 Aug 2003 19:51:56 +0200472_windows-1255 Ha'aretz has a report about the police "dispersing" (but not closing) an Arab summer camp in Kabul in the Western Galilee. Were the counselors not doing their jobs? Not exactly:<br><br>"The children in the camp are taught about Palestinian terrorists ("martyrs"), they sing songs that praise suicide attacks and express their hope for returning to Jaffa, Ashdod and Haifa and building a Palestinian state from the Mediterranean Sea to the Jordan River." [...]
1622 104 50_RE: Meanwhile, over at our cousins' summer camp...12_Stopak, Noam20_NStopak@orionsci.com30_Fri, 1 Aug 2003 13:17:53 -0400560_- Lovely indeed. Looks like a tough road ahead no matter how you slice it.<br><br>Speaking of revolution, "we'd all love to hear YOUR plan" Jon.<br><br>Noam<br><br><br><br><br><br>-----Original Message----- From: Jonathan Baum [mailto:jonbaum@sasa.org.il] Sent: Friday, August 01, 2003 1:52 PM To: Habonet Subject: Meanwhile, over at our cousins' summer camp...<br><br><br><br>Ha'aretz has a report about the police "dispersing" (but not closing) an Arab summer camp in Kabul in the Western Galilee. Were the counselors not doing their jobs? Not exactly: [...]
1727 68 25_Re: a Sober rosh at Mosh?0_14_KBob24@aol.com28_Fri, 1 Aug 2003 13:56:11 EDT407_US-ASCII In a message dated 8/1/2003 11:49:46 AM Eastern Daylight Time, deang@bezeqint.net writes:<br><br>> Ken-do > you remember Country Fair at Saugatuck? Just curious-not going to put the > details on line-don't worry:)<br><br>Aviva:<br><br>Wow, you have a great memory. You think all these Moshniks would be that interested in what us midwesterners called fun at a County Fair (if they only knew). [...]
1796 106 50_Re: Meanwhile, over at our cousins' summer camp...13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il30_Fri, 1 Aug 2003 21:00:04 +0200563_windows-1255 God, Noam, if I had a "plan" I'd certainly sell it and not give it away for free. Believe me, sometimes I lie awake at night wondering what's gonna be, and there's nothing like having a son in the army to help concentrate one's mind on the subject.<br><br>I have absolutely no faith in this "Road Map". Something is going to happen to bring the whole thing crashing bloodily down around our ears, and sooner rather than later. It's all very well to talk about (and even be active in) "peace between peoples", but to carry through a concrete and [...]
1903 142 50_RE: Meanwhile, over at our cousins' summer camp...12_Stopak, Noam20_NStopak@orionsci.com30_Fri, 1 Aug 2003 14:16:48 -0400613_- Thanks for the more or less straight answer Jon.<br><br>I share your pessimism about the "Road Map" and agree that if this reflects the prevailing attitude among Israel's Arab citizens then friendly co-existance is a long way off. Do you feel that the Israeli Arabs are irrationally developing this attitude or is there something which leads them to reach these conclusions? I'm not saying that Israel's Jews are solely responsible for the hatred these Arabs feel (far from it), but don't they have many family and other ties with the Palestinians which reaasonably lead them to sympathize with their fate [...]
2046 76 50_Re: Meanwhile, over at our cousins' summer camp...13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il30_Fri, 1 Aug 2003 21:27:47 +0200546_windows-1255 Noam, I think that the Arabs - mostly outside but also inside Israel - hate our guts and won't be satisfied until we're all gone. Is that straight enough? Of course they sympathize with the Arabs in the PA; they're the same people. Do they have reasons to hate us? You betcha. After all we keep beating them in wars, carry out the occasional ethnic cleansing against them, make it illegal for them to marry PA residents and offer them 95% of the territories and parts of Jerusalem. Hell, we even let their women vote and drive. [...]
2123 111 50_RE: Meanwhile, over at our cousins' summer camp...12_Stopak, Noam20_NStopak@orionsci.com30_Fri, 1 Aug 2003 14:38:58 -0400277_- The thanks were sincere Jon, the "more or less" was a reference to the opening remark about selling your plan if you had one. As I've said before, I don't always agree with you, but I appreciate your ability to clearly state your position and the lack of sugar coating. [...]
2235 156 50_Re: Meanwhile, over at our cousins' summer camp...13_avi rosenberg16_avi@gezer.org.il30_Fri, 1 Aug 2003 22:18:42 +0300529_windows-1255 I know it's a lot easier to talk about how the Arabs are like this or like that, but I think we continue to do them and ourselves a disservice when we take all of the hundreds of thousands of Israeli Arabs and sum up their thoughts and feelings in a few well worn phrases. The school age kids in Gezer this summer participated in a Jewish Arab summer camp run by the "Open House" in Ramla. The purpose of the camp is to allow the kids to simply know each other and become familiar with each others' culture. To [...]
2392 41 50_Re: Meanwhile, over at our cousins' summer camp...0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com28_Fri, 1 Aug 2003 15:35:34 EDT559_US-ASCII <br><br>In a message dated 8/1/03 11:15:10 AM, NStopak@orionsci.com writes:<br><br><< Do you feel that the Israeli Arabs are irrationally developing this attitude or is there something which leads them to reach these conclusions? I'm not saying that Israel's Jews are solely responsible for the hatred these Arabs feel (far from it), but don't they have many family and other ties with the Palestinians which reaasonably lead them to sympathize with their fate (regardless of one's views on why the Palestinians are in the mess they are in)? >> [...]
2434 111 50_Re: Meanwhile, over at our cousins' summer camp...0_14_LHIAM1@aol.com28_Fri, 1 Aug 2003 15:47:56 EDT555_US-ASCII In a message dated 8/1/2003 3:36:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LiberHawke@aol.com writes: it just seems like the "whining" and "blaming" just goes on and on and gets nowhere--and it's about time that the "Palestinians" stop all of that and start building their homeland...Maybe they need a shot of Oprah or Dr. Phil-- OH how the mighty have fallen - Sue you choose to replace our own home grown modern day prophets of self determination ...Herzl, Achad Ha'am, Borochov with imported carpet baggers with the intellectual weight of Dr. Phil??? [...]
2546 78 48_32 years at Mosh, still no Rosh, Whats going on?13_richard smith19_rdsmith1957@msn.com30_Fri, 1 Aug 2003 15:54:22 -0400584_iso-8859-1 These are the facts: 1.. 1970 - Rosh: Steve Shrier; merkez: Chiam (the karate expert) 2.. 1971 - (the Summer of Love) Rosh: John Mate (don't recall merkez) 3.. 1972 - (attempt to emulate 1971) Roah: Avi Ben David; merkez: Ben Glasser merkez (first session) rosh Ben Glasser; merkez: Teddy Shredny (second session) - strep throat summer too 4.. 1973 - rosh: Ruven Gan, merkez: Mark Glickman 5.. 1974 - 1976 - rosh: Mark Glickman; merkez: Gene Burger (74, 75) don't know 76- was on Workshop 6.. 77-78 - rosh: Marty Gruder (merkez: 77 Sandy Eisen, 78, Shane Hoffman) 7.. [...]
2625 114 52_Re: 32 years at Mosh, still no Rosh, Whats going on?14_aviva grosbard18_deang@bezeqint.net30_Fri, 1 Aug 2003 22:55:43 +0200306_iso-8859-1 Interesting...can anyone out there do the same for Tavor say from 65 to 70? I remember Meir Ciporen,and after that its a blur. Aviva ----- Original Message ----- From: richard smith To: habonet Sent: Friday, August 01, 2003 9:54 PM Subject: 32 years at Mosh, still no Rosh, Whats going on? [...]
2740 91 36_Re: Machaneh, new and old traditions0_15_Emabear@aol.com28_Fri, 1 Aug 2003 16:02:37 EDT546_US-ASCII In a message dated 8/1/2003 6:57:38 AM Pacific Standard Time, KBob24@aol.com writes:<br><br>> My answer is pretty simple. You CAN NOT protect your kids from those > things. If they want to find them, they will. All in all, machaneh is a pretty safe > place to hear about them. > I agree with Ken. As one of the saftot around I agree that kids hopefully come to camp, to the movement with basic moral opinions and ability to make the right choices. They are going to do what their inner voice tells them where ever they are. BTW, if [...]
2832 189 82_anti-religious (as opposed to unreligious) Was: Realities of Repatriating Settlers12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Fri, 01 Aug 2003 23:14:18 +0200463_us-ascii Marty, You wrote >I can tell you as an engineer that repatriation will not be a trivial task. Peace Now claims that the Israeli government has invested on the order of 50 billion dollars into the settlements over the last 30 years. My uninformed guesstimate is that this claim is exaggerated. However, even if the cost of infrastructure replacement is only half of the Peace Now figure, this would still be a staggering cost to the Israeli economy. [...]
3022 119 25_Re: a Sober rosh at Mosh?14_aviva grosbard18_deang@bezeqint.net30_Sat, 2 Aug 2003 00:16:22 +0200507_iso-8859-1 Yep-I have a good memory and many good memories of the years at Tavor. Unfortunately we have nothing that compares to it here in Israel. I know you could argue that we are "living the dream" as we used to say-but I always wished my kids could have had some of the experiences we did. Even the bad ones were good! Well-memorable at least. Aviva ----- Original Message ----- From: KBob24@aol.com To: habonet@shamash.org Sent: Friday, August 01, 2003 7:56 PM Subject: Re: a Sober rosh at Mosh? [...]
3142 69 58_To Hiam Re: Meanwhile, over at our cousins' summer camp...0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com28_Fri, 1 Aug 2003 18:22:57 EDT561_US-ASCII <br><br>In a message dated 8/1/03 12:49:18 PM, LHIAM1@aol.com writes:<br><br><< OH how the mighty have fallen - Sue you choose to replace our own home grown modern day prophets of self determination ...Herzl, Achad Ha'am, Borochov with imported carpet baggers with the intellectual weight of Dr. Phil???<br><br>OK- You caught me- but I wasn't really replacing anyone- just trying to put a more "popular" spin on it all- I doubt there would be a Palestinian movement wishing to become familiar with our literary philosophers- but it would be nice! [...]
3212 29 15_"The Holy Land"0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com28_Fri, 1 Aug 2003 18:36:01 EDT582_US-ASCII This film opened here (in LA) today, and the theme is the love affair between a Yeshiva boy and young Russian prostiitute. I find it interesting that the films which get distributed here independent of the Israeli Film Festival- including "Kadosh"- usually have to do with the disillusionment of the Orthodox in Israle and their struggle to find truth in what they would call the "anti-world."-- I am going to see it tomorrow --and I hope it doesn't do what "Kadosh" did- which is turn off non-Jews and Jews alike to Israel by representing the story as a microcosm of [...]
3242 29 36_Re: Machaneh, new and old traditions11_Lon Ephraim14_cbma@erols.com31_Fri, 01 Aug 2003 21:40:09 -0400305_us-ascii My parents met in Young Poalei Tzion. My dad was in the Buffalo Convention Picture in "Adventures in Pioneering". My sisters and I went to Mosh forever, and Naomi's daughter and both of my sons are/were Moshniks (as well as a slew of cousins on all sides). Is there a Three Generation Club? [...]
3272 32 36_Re: Machaneh, new and old traditions11_Lon Ephraim14_cbma@erols.com31_Fri, 01 Aug 2003 21:47:31 -0400496_us-ascii That , I think, was the first summer I went to the Rosh & cried that I wanted to go home. I was a madricha! There were too many madrichim, so I lived in an ohel of madrichot. The first rosh was a guy named Avi Ben David (his parents owned the farm in NJ where we held Kinusim, I think) who left for some reason. Benjy took over. Of all the years I spent at Mosh, it was the only one that wasn't happy. As I recall, to say the tzevet didn't work well together was an understatement. [...]
3305 94 36_Re: Machaneh, new and old traditions0_14_KBob24@aol.com28_Fri, 1 Aug 2003 22:21:51 EDT461_US-ASCII In a message dated 8/1/2003 9:47:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time, cbma@erols.com writes:<br><br>> Avi Ben > David (his parents owned the farm in NJ where we held Kinusim, I think)<br><br>Avi's parents owned Weiss' Farm, a winterized kosher retreat center that was used for kinusim and seminars. Avi was a non-Habonim member of Garin Sha'al, the urban kibbtutz that was set up in Carmiel in the 60's. Avi was mazkir of the movement for a year, 1972-3. [...]
3400 27 36_Re: Machaneh, new and old traditions0_18_Rachelbern@aol.com31_Fri, 01 Aug 2003 22:43:55 -0400529_iso-8859-1 In a message dated 8/1/2003 11:58:31 AM Eastern Daylight Time, gelman@erols.com writes:<br><br><<Reuven Gen was 73. He was rosh when I was a madricha before workshop>><br><br>You were my madricha that summer -- second session, chotrot-- with... Orit, I think? And you'd had lyme desease earlier in the summer? One of you had a Joni Mitchell tape you'd often put on for us to drift asleep to- and all these years later, I still get a specific Mosh-tinged feeling of warmth and calm when I hear certain Joni songs. [...]
3428 30 36_Re: Machaneh, new and old traditions0_18_Rachelbern@aol.com31_Fri, 01 Aug 2003 23:01:01 -0400565_iso-8859-1 In a message dated 8/1/2003 8:47:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, cbma@erols.com writes:<br><br>> The first rosh was a guy named Avi Ben > David (his parents owned the farm in NJ where we held > Kinusim, I think) who > left for some reason.<br><br>Although I spent the summer of 1972 encountering Hurricaine Agnes at a very goyish arts camp in upstate New York (not my choice, but backlash from Mosh 1971), I remember getting a letter from Mosh saying that the rosh (Avi) was just overwhelmed by the job and had sneaked out of machaneh in the middle of [...]
3459 51 16_Mahaneh Memories6_meyers23_meyers@netvision.net.il31_Sat, 02 Aug 2003 17:35:38 +0200570_us-ascii Shalom Chevre, Though I read the flood of mahaneh memories on Habonet with considerable interest, they speak of a period long after that during which I went to Habonim camp (45 to 47 at the LA camp, then called, if I remember correctly, Na'ame) and 1948 (when, after studuying at the Habonim Institute, I was a madrich of some sort at Yad Ari in Wisconsin). The Habonim summers were a decisive element in my life, causing me to move from the Boy Scouts and AZA to Habonim and ultimately to Israel. Unlike the other contributors to this discussion, I don't [...]
3511 83 36_Re: Machaneh, new and old traditions0_14_Ohanka@aol.com28_Sat, 2 Aug 2003 11:15:26 EDT592_US-ASCII After reading a lot about current perceptions of machaneh these days, I happened to go to Galil with my family last night for Shabbat. (As Galil registrar, I have this special priviledge afforded me each summer.) Not only did we have a really wonderful time, but to observe machaneh with the context of yesterday's discussion it was much more fascinating. First, the camp is full - 165 in yesterday and 175 in first session. It was jumpin'. Dinner was usual for Shabbat. Lots of kids used Shabbat song books to sing the old Hebrew favorites. During the irreverent and sometimes [...]
3595 62 31_RE: OUR HEARTS INVENTED A PLACE0_24_purpleroot8@netscape.net31_Sat, 02 Aug 2003 13:24:41 -0400625_iso-8859-1 Hello, Donna. Can you tell us about the current status of Gesher Haziv, how it defines itself and what it's like today. Thanks, Shloime<br><br>Green88888@aol.com wrote:<br><br>>Just got back from an amazing two weeks in Israel which included a visit to >Gesher Haziv. Habonetters will be interested in the following book: > >OUT HEARTS INVENTED A PLACE - Can Kibbutzim Survive in Today's Israel by >JoAann Mort and Gary Brenner. The book is published by Cornell University Press. >Although it will be officially released in October, 2003, it can already and >be ordered on Amazon.com. > >"The founders of the [...]
3658 67 36_Re: Machaneh, new and old traditions13_richard smith19_rdsmith1957@msn.com30_Sat, 2 Aug 2003 15:15:08 -0400260_iso-8859-1 Hank said: I learned that three adults (two madrichim and a kitchen worker) were asked to leave last week because they returned from chofesh still high on marijuana.<br><br><br><br>If Habonim was like that when we went how many of us would even have
3726 114 23_Labor in the Government14_Martin Goodman26_martinjgoodman@hotmail.com31_Sat, 02 Aug 2003 19:38:29 +0000654_- 2 August 2003<br><br>Shalom Amnon:<br><br>I. In your last posting on Habonet, you wrote, "" It was economic improvident if not morally scandalous to pour all those billions into the territories instead of addressing the needs of Dimona. ""<br><br>Let's not forget that it was Ben Gurion's Labor government, which controlled Israel's government and economy for the first 29 years of Israel's existence, that dumped traditional/Orthodox Mizrachi immigrants in Dimona and other Arey Pituach (development towns) and then abandoned them in order to invest in the mostly Ashkenazi Mercaz. For Ben Gurion, the Mizrachim were a mindless chomer gelem (raw [...]
3841 222 38_Re: Realities of Repatriating Settlers7_skolnik25_pskolnik@netvision.net.il31_Sun, 03 Aug 2003 00:41:17 +0200571_iso-8859-1 steve, just to correct your facts: 1. the "poet" was Palombo, an award-winning sculptor: he designed the gates at the military cemetary on Har Herzl and at the knesset. The cable was stretched across a road that normally was closed for shabbat, but the person in charge forgot to release the cable at the end of shabbat and Palombo drove into it and was killed. I think he was decapitated. 2. religious Jews did not take the masks from the port. The HomeFront Defence unit which is responsible for giving out the masks decides who gets what masks. We may [...]
4064 53 24_Cash at the Western Wall11_Phil Safier17_psafier@elixa.com31_Sat, 02 Aug 2003 16:22:14 -0600
4118 81 38_Re: Realities of Repatriating Settlers13_richard smith19_rdsmith1957@msn.com30_Sat, 2 Aug 2003 21:14:16 -0400566_iso-8859-1 Pearl said: There is altogether too much anti-religious Jews propaganda on this list, much of it absolutely baseless.<br><br>I don't know about either of the situations you mention in your latest post, but assuming your statement of the facts are correct, the religious community was responsible for the death of the sculptor (who was not a poet). Getting confused about who he was does not make it "absolutely baseless." Even if the victim was an unemployed junky, the death would be the responsibility of the idiots who put chains up across roads. [...]
4200 75 28_Re: Cash at the Western Wall13_richard smith19_rdsmith1957@msn.com30_Sat, 2 Aug 2003 21:18:46 -0400459_iso-8859-1 Phil wrote: The Man In Black's daughter has this and other gems on her CD 10 Song Demo. She reprises it on her latest. Listen up.<br><br>It also appears on a album from 1999 by Emmylou Harris & Linda Ronstadt called "The Western Wall/The Tucson Sessions." Though I love Rosanne's Cash's music, and have since her first release 22 years ago (or so) she doesn't have the voice of either Harris or Ronstadt so I suggest you give that a listen as well.
4276 62 38_Re: Realities of Repatriating Settlers15_Judith R Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Sat, 02 Aug 2003 22:16:06 -0400587_us-ascii Dear Pearl,<br><br>Richard wrote<br><br>> Even if the victim was an unemployed junky > > And I want to add ( and know you agree) AND A NON-JEW. > > The reason that there is "anti-religious propaganda" is that the > puclic face of Orthodoxy in Israel often puts religiousity in front > of more basic and universal values like Pikuah Nefesh. The > sculptor's horrific death is particularly unfortunate example of this > misguided emphasis on enforcing shabbat over humanitarian values. It > is the humanitarian values that make Judaism a great religion. > > On my last visit [...]
4339 52 38_Re: Realities of Repatriating Settlers13_richard smith19_rdsmith1957@msn.com30_Sat, 2 Aug 2003 22:33:22 -040011_iso-8859-1 
4392 57 22_Don't waste your money0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com28_Sat, 2 Aug 2003 23:37:47 EDT593_US-ASCII I just came back from seeing 'The Holy Land.' it has gotten good press here-and i assume in NY- but it was a piece of @#$%^&*(!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!...I am really sad about this; I was looking forward to an interesting film, and instead sat for a couple of hours in a theater watching high-schoolish exploitive vomit where the sound was awful, the make-up horrendous ( the rabbi's and father of the lead's beards looked like a 3 year old pasted them on their faces!)....and to top it off, it presents the people of Israel as a bunch of stupid, self-indulgent idiots; especially [...]
4450 46 20_Re: Mahaneh Memories0_15_Emabear@aol.com28_Sat, 2 Aug 2003 23:55:45 EDT213_US-ASCII Dear Nehemia, Your memories of Naame may be dim but I think the chanichim remember you well, at least my husband, Bernie Ginsburg, z"l, and his sister Sandy. Heard so much about you.<br><br>Ellen Ginsburg
4497 41 38_Re: Realities of Repatriating Settlers0_15_Emabear@aol.com28_Sun, 3 Aug 2003 00:00:19 EDT51_US-ASCII Here we go again, Shavah Tov,<br><br>Ellen
4539 39 38_Re: Realities of Repatriating Settlers0_15_Emabear@aol.com28_Sun, 3 Aug 2003 00:10:39 EDT47_US-ASCII Meant to say Shavuah Tov,<br><br>Ellen
4579 68 19_Re: Visiting Israel3_EJB16_ejbarkon@msn.com30_Sun, 3 Aug 2003 00:16:42 -0400547_iso-8859-1 Hello Steve, Glad you and your family had the trip of a lifetime! Though you don't know me, I have been part of the Galil community since 1967, and now my youngest, Dan (12), is currently at Galil. I am interested in hearing more about the arranging of a Bar Mitzvah trip to Israel. We are members of a Reform congregation, have arranged for Dan to read from the Torah here on Dec 20th 2003 so that he might read in Israel as well on the following weekend from the same parashah. He has expressed a tremendous interest in becoming [...]
4648 112 38_Re: Realities of Repatriating Settlers14_Ethan Schwartz23_arava_eilat@hotmail.com30_Sun, 3 Aug 2003 08:23:20 +0300533_iso-8859-1 Maybe someone will correct me but, to me Zaka are the ravens that arrive after an attack or accident to pick up the minute pieces of the victims in order to sort them out and make sure they are buried with the rest of the body. I find no way of comparing them with the holy work of our defense forces, police and rescue services. In New York there is a Haridi rescue service that serves the entire community, I don't know if we have anything similar here. I am aware of a significant number of haridim who are active [...]
4761 37 36_Re: Machaneh, new and old traditions0_13_SC523@aol.com28_Sun, 3 Aug 2003 04:48:16 EDT599_US-ASCII <br><br>In a message dated 8/1/03 9:09:50 AM, NStopak@orionsci.com writes:<br><br><< What other 3 generation Habonim families are out there? >><br><br>We're either a 3rd or 4th generation family , depending on how you count.<br><br>My kids went to Galil and our daughter Orli was on the first tzevet of the revivified Naaleh as well as Merakezet Chinuch at Galil; I went to Tavor, and was on tzevet at Gilboa, MB Zayin and Chet; my dad went to one of the early predecessors of Tavor; and my grandma went to Farband Adult Camp with Bruce Kutnick's mom and other Poalei Zion/Farband/LZA [...]
4799 24 52_Re: 32 years at Mosh, still no Rosh, Whats going on?0_13_SC523@aol.com28_Sun, 3 Aug 2003 05:16:28 EDT431_US-ASCII Wasn't 65 at Tavor Eddie WEisblatt? Can't help you with the rest because I left for MB the next summer and worked at other machanot after that.<br><br>Aliya<br><br>------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...]
4824 86 13_Habonim Logic0_13_SC523@aol.com28_Sun, 3 Aug 2003 05:28:22 EDT308_US-ASCII Since we engage in so many thorny debates on Habonet, I am sure that you all have thought more than once about how "Habonim logic and debate" affected your ability to "think out of the box" in your adult life.<br><br>As such, I know you will enjoy the following piece (best to all from Aliya): [...]
4911 44 38_Re: Realities of Repatriating Settlers0_13_SC523@aol.com28_Sun, 3 Aug 2003 05:43:43 EDT589_US-ASCII My husband, after 5 decades as a classical composer and pianist, gave it up 3 years ago to enroll full time in rabbinical school. Having been ordained in May, he is now a rabbi of an egalitarian Conservative shul in Brooklyn. This morning, on his way to services, he saw members of the Orthodox community walking to the Orthodox shul (which is kitty-corner from the Conservative one) and, when they reached the Conservative shul, went from the sidewalk down into the gutter as they passed the Conservative shul - a custom many Orthodox Jews follow when they pass a Christian [...]
4956 28 20_Necessity of a "get"12_Meir Hurwitz21_meir_h@maccabi.org.il30_Sun, 3 Aug 2003 14:25:42 +0300725_US-ASCII This is contrary to what I understand.<br><br>ALL marriages are valid in Jewish law. And they ALL need a "get".<br><br>Meir<br><br><br><br><br><br>------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/<br><br>* * FREE JEWISH LEARNING * * Shamash invites you to join MyJewishLearning.com, a comprehensive, objective, authoritative and interactive learning resource in all areas of Judaism. Free membership via http://www.myjewishlearning.com/shamash ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------=
4985 98 20_Re: Orthodox/Secular14_Jamie Beaumont24_jamie_beaumont@yahoo.com36_Sun, 3 Aug 2003 06:10:52 -0700 (PDT)580_us-ascii My brother's teenage daughters have been raised in an Orthodox home in Brooklyn. I am quite secular, don't keep kosher, date non-Jews and have even attended services at an Unitarian Church. I was holding a conversation with one of my nieces a couple of years ago. I felt saddened that they had no contact with people from other races and religions. I asked her, "Do you know anyone who is not Jewish?". She replied with a question, "Like you, Aunt Helen?". That threw me. --- SC523@aol.com wrote: > My husband, after 5 decades as a classical composer > and pianist, [...]
5084 96 26_Re: Don't waste your money0_14_KBob24@aol.com28_Sun, 3 Aug 2003 10:05:33 EDT577_US-ASCII In a message dated 8/2/03 11:38:24 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LiberHawke@aol.com writes:<br><br>> >>I just came back from seeing 'The Holy Land.' it has gotten good press > here-and i >>assume in NY- but it was a piece of @#$%^& > *(!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.... > I hate to disagree with Sue, but I also saw the movie last night in NY and didn't think it was that bad. I went with four other people and the general feeling was "interesting and challenging." Yes, the production was rough around the edges and it wasn't subtle, but we thought some of the acting was [...]
5181 46 24_Rashei Machaneh at Tavor0_14_KBob24@aol.com28_Sun, 3 Aug 2003 10:08:11 EDT220_US-ASCII I would have said Meir Ciporen in 1965, Rafi Goldman in 1970, Pete Braun in 1968....but the brain grows dim.<br><br>Maybe Rozzie could help, it was the garinim to Gesher Haziv era at Tavor............<br><br>Ken
5228 55 14_Security fence13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il30_Sun, 3 Aug 2003 18:11:10 +0200210_windows-1255 The Daily Telegraph has a map of what they claim is the plan for the security fence. This looks over-ambitious to me.<br><br>http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/graphics/2003/08/03/wmid03big.gif
5284 123 23_Your friends the Saudis13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il30_Sun, 3 Aug 2003 18:44:26 +0200460_windows-1255 The Arab News, a Saudi government publication - there is no "free press" in SA; anything printed in a newspaper there has to have the approval of the officials - is running a column by one Amr Mohammed Al-Faisal entitled "Confidence Built on an Ignorance of Arab History". Aside from his ignorance of Arab history (such as that the Arabs expelled the Turks in World War I; it was mainly the British), his "plans" for Israel are enlightening: [...]
5408 86 28_Re: Rashei Machaneh at Tavor14_aviva grosbard18_deang@bezeqint.net30_Sun, 3 Aug 2003 18:51:04 +0200382_iso-8859-1 Aw come on-someone must be able to do this. Are we going to let Moshniks put us to shame? Aviva ----- Original Message ----- From: KBob24@aol.com To: habonet@shamash.org Sent: Sunday, August 03, 2003 4:08 PM Subject: Rashei Machaneh at Tavor<br><br><br><br>I would have said Meir Ciporen in 1965, Rafi Goldman in 1970, Pete Braun in 1968....but the brain grows dim. [...]
5495 66 12_orthodox get7_skolnik25_pskolnik@netvision.net.il31_Sun, 03 Aug 2003 19:00:30 +0200558_windows-1255 aliyah, one of the means of contracting a marriage in judaism is "beeya," and a Jewish man and woman do not need a rabbi to have "beeya." They are then considered married. I can not imagine an orthodox rabbi ever telling a Jewish couple that were married formally and previously to JEWS that they do not need a get. Theoretically, any kosher Jew can perform a marriage of two other Jews, and they would be considered married in Jewish law, as long as the prescribed ceremony is carried out. Remember, it is enough for a Jewish man to put a [...]
5562 38 28_Re: Rashei Machaneh at Tavor0_14_Ohanka@aol.com28_Sun, 3 Aug 2003 12:33:34 EDT585_US-ASCII <br><br>In a message dated 8/3/03 11:51:02 AM, deang@bezeqint.net writes:<br><br><< I would have said Meir Ciporen in 1965, Rafi Goldman in 1970, Pete Braun in 1968....but the brain grows dim.<br><br><br><br>Maybe Rozzie could help, it was the garinim to Gesher Haziv era at Tavor............ >><br><br>I never went to tavor. But I was at MB with Jake Braun in 1966. Although he was a great guy, I doubt he would have become Rosh Tavor only two years later. By the way, Roshim at Galil were Nibby Penn in '60, Rose Breslau in '61, Ali Bialer in '62, Gingy Cogen '63-'65, [...]
5601 57 28_Re: Rashei Machaneh at Tavor14_aviva grosbard18_deang@bezeqint.net30_Sun, 3 Aug 2003 19:40:52 +0200367_iso-8859-1 Pete is Jake's older brother and he WAS rosh machaneh and a very loved one at that:) Now that Galil has put its two cents in-somebody out there had better come up with the Tavor roster fast! Aviva ----- Original Message ----- From: <Ohanka@aol.com> To: <habonet@shamash.org> Sent: Sunday, August 03, 2003 6:33 PM Subject: Re: Rashei Machaneh at Tavor [...]
5659 98 22_Generations in Habonim6_bencee17_bencee@nyc.rr.com30_Sun, 3 Aug 2003 12:44:55 -0400559_iso-8859-1 I was a founding member of Habonim at the YPZA convention in Buffalo, NY, 1935. My wife, Harrriet, a few years later in Brooklyn, NY. We met and married at Creamridge Hachsharah. I was in Tel Chai, New Buffalo, Mich., from 1935 to 1940, the last two years as business manager. My sons, Elon and Ami were at Na'aleh in Red Hook from 1965-68, with Elon at Hunter in '98. Elon met his future wife, Leah Schwartz, at Na'aleh. Their children have been in Habonim since childhood, with Daniel, starting in Galil in 1987 - 2002, Joshua in Galil 1989 [...]
5758 33 18_Re: Security fence12_David Fleiss20_dfleiss@pipeline.com31_Sun, 03 Aug 2003 15:06:57 -0400
5792 45 17_Re: Habonim Logic0_15_DebALev@aol.com28_Sun, 3 Aug 2003 15:35:31 EDT183_US-ASCII Of course, I had to look it up at snopes. It's at <A HREF="http://www.snopes.com/college/exam/hell.htm"> http://www.snopes.com/college/exam/hell.htm</A><br><br><br><br>Debbie
5838 35 28_Re: Rashei Machaneh at Tavor0_15_DebALev@aol.com28_Sun, 3 Aug 2003 16:09:29 EDT80_US-ASCII I think it was Meir Ciporen in 66..........and it was PETE Braun in 68.
5874 191 36_Re: Machaneh, new and old traditions12_Esther Cohen22_richard.steacy@gte.net30_Sun, 3 Aug 2003 16:12:39 -0400585_iso-8859-1 Hi, Aviva!<br><br>I suspect there are a great many three-generation families. Yes! Shelly, we do need a Three-Generation Club. I'm also pleased to see the seeds of a Four-Generation Club.<br><br>We Schwartz/Cohens are. My mother, Lenore Schwartz (now Cohen), along with Vadi Cohen (Ami and Carmi's dad, but no kin to us), helped build the Mosh that the Gelmans, Stopaks, etc., went to outside Parole, MD in the second half of the 40's, I guess; my brother Chip and/or I were there from 1970 - 1978, I think. Chip's daughter Shosh was there for a number of years in the [...]
6066 81 28_Re: Rashei Machaneh at Tavor14_aviva grosbard18_deang@bezeqint.net30_Sun, 3 Aug 2003 23:21:06 +0200331_ISO-8859-1 If you were there those years...do we know eachother? Just curious who you are. Aviva ----- Original Message ----- From: DebALev@aol.com To: habonet@shamash.org Sent: Sunday, August 03, 2003 10:09 PM Subject: Re: Rashei Machaneh at Tavor<br><br><br><br>I think it was Meir Ciporen in 66..........and it was PETE Braun in
6148 58 36_Re: Machaneh, new and old traditions0_14_KBob24@aol.com28_Sun, 3 Aug 2003 16:43:42 EDT419_US-ASCII In a message dated 8/3/03 4:11:03 PM Eastern Daylight Time, richard.steacy@gte.net writes:<br><br>> I suspect there are a great many three-generation families.<br><br>It turns out we are a three generation family too, as my wife, Nancy Philips', dad went to Acord.<br><br>Here is the quiz for all of you camping historians out there: How much do you think it cost him to go to Acord for one week in 1937? [...]
6207 51 28_Re: Rashei Machaneh at Tavor0_15_DebALev@aol.com28_Sun, 3 Aug 2003 16:47:29 EDT353_US-ASCII Aviva, I knew who YOU were, of course......and I remember that gorgeous red hair. I was KMBet in 66.........and a madricha in 68 (Pete Braun hated me for some reason). I was one of those who few would remember.....everyone else who had been to Tavor knew each other, of course and few of us newbies seemed able to integrate all that well. [...]
6259 53 17_Re: Habonim Logic0_13_SC523@aol.com28_Sun, 3 Aug 2003 16:55:02 EDT433_US-ASCII To all: I actually enjoyed reading the history of this "joke" on Snopes, and thanks to Debbie for finding it. I did not post it because I necessarily thought it was true - I was going to look it up on Snopes myself but then decided that, whether it was Internet lore or true, it was certainly an adorable way to post a parallel spoof of all the convoluted out-of-the-box thinking we Habonetters post on a weekly basis. [...]
6313 71 26_Re: Generations in Habonim0_13_SC523@aol.com28_Sun, 3 Aug 2003 17:02:29 EDT594_US-ASCII My dad was also at Tel Chai where Benny Cohen and Nahum Gutman were his madrichim/rosh machaneh/business manager.<br><br>My mom was also at the Chava Hachsharah in Creamridge, but here's the interesting Zionist background to the story of how my parents met<br><br>I am a product of a mixed marriage - a Young Judaea mother married to a Habonim father. My mom was actually formally kicked out of Young Judaea for preaching chalutziut - you were absolutely not allowed to talk about chalutziut in Young Judaea in those days. As a result, she formed her own group in Washington D.C. [...]
6385 77 36_Re: Machaneh, new and old traditions14_Holtzer Family20_carmdave@urim.org.il30_Sun, 3 Aug 2003 00:04:03 +0200436_iso-8859-1 Dear Ken,<br><br>According to a letter from July, 1937, my father, who was 18 at the time, paid $9 for the pleasure of working at Camp Kvutza for a week.<br><br>Carmi<br><br><br><br>It turns out we are a three generation family too, as my wife, Nancy Philips', dad went to Acord.<br><br>Here is the quiz for all of you camping historians out there: How much do you think it cost him to go to Acord for one week in 1937? [...]
6463 42 28_Re: Rashei Machaneh at Tavor0_13_SC523@aol.com28_Sun, 3 Aug 2003 17:05:15 EDT154_US-ASCII Pete Braun is Jake's older brother who is married to Ronit Zagarinsky and lives in Gesher Haziv. It was Pete who was Rosh, never Jake.<br><br>ACC
6506 29 15_Mapai and Mapam14_Martin Goodman26_martinjgoodman@hotmail.com31_Sun, 03 Aug 2003 21:09:02 +0000625_- In a recent posting, I stated that Ben Gurion had kept MAMPAM out of MAPAI governments.<br><br>Actually, MAPAM jointed with MAPAI to form the Labor party in 1969.<br><br>Marty Goodman<br><br>_________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail<br><br>------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...]
6536 65 36_Re: Machaneh, new and old traditions0_14_KBob24@aol.com28_Sun, 3 Aug 2003 17:28:00 EDT463_US-ASCII In a message dated 8/3/03 5:05:06 PM Eastern Daylight Time, carmdave@urim.org.il writes:<br><br>> According to a letter from July, 1937, my father, who was 18 at > the time, paid $9 for the pleasure of working at Camp Kvutza for a week.<br><br>Carmi:<br><br>First of all, I think it bizzare that you actually have information about this topic :-). Secondly, either my father-in-law's memory is failimg or he got a discount.......he says he paid $8! [...]
6602 81 36_Re: Machaneh, new and old traditions14_Holtzer Family20_carmdave@urim.org.il30_Sun, 3 Aug 2003 00:45:28 +0200483_iso-8859-1 Ken,<br><br>I don't know about bizarre, but it's definitely riveting - I have an incredible pair of letters between my biological father, who was at camp that summer (he died when I was a baby) and his younger brother (who was my adoptive father and who brought me up as his own daughter) who was furious with his big brother for spoiling his chances of going to camp that summer because he "worked too hard" at camp, despite the fact that he had to pay to go there. [...]
6684 107 28_Re: Rashei Machaneh at Tavor14_aviva grosbard18_deang@bezeqint.net30_Mon, 4 Aug 2003 00:47:12 +0200419_ISO-8859-1 :) I spent little time at the pool and even less at melechet yad-but I remember your name now- and a pretty smile and a soft voice-so I guess both of us have in tact memories.If you are ever "in the neighborhood" (Omer Israel) drop in any time. Aviva ----- Original Message ----- From: DebALev@aol.com To: habonet@shamash.org Sent: Sunday, August 03, 2003 10:47 PM Subject: Re: Rashei Machaneh at Tavor [...]
6792 46 36_Re: Machaneh, new and old traditions0_15_Emabear@aol.com28_Sun, 3 Aug 2003 18:13:29 EDT252_US-ASCII Dear Aliyah, When I went to Kinneret I had to have allergy shots. We didn't have a nurse so I was taken across the road and up a bit to the Farband camp to their nurse. They had waiters in their chadar. We used to snicker at them!<br><br>Ellen
6839 34 28_Re: Rashei Machaneh at Tavor0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com28_Sun, 3 Aug 2003 20:11:26 EDT37_US-ASCII Meir Tziporen was Rosh in 66
6874 129 38_Re: Realities of Repatriating Settlers15_Judith R Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Sun, 03 Aug 2003 21:31:43 -0400579_us-ascii Dear Ethan,<br><br>You are wrong. Before I went to talk to them I also thought they were vultures picking up dead flesh but what I found out is that ZAKA volunteers are also trained as first responder medical personnel. They treat car accident victims, heart attack victims,etc and are often there first because they travel on motorbikes that cut through traffic. At the scene of a piguah, they first treat the living and help MDA with triage. Many go on to become full EMT's. They only work inside the green line and within that area they treat everyone, Arab and [...]
7004 22 28_Re: Rashei Machaneh at Tavor0_15_AvivaMT@aol.com28_Sun, 3 Aug 2003 21:40:12 EDT425_US-ASCII Sam remembers, as do I, that Meir Ciporen was rosh at Tavor in 1966 because we were madrichei KM Bet. It was my last year at camp except as a visitor.<br><br>------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...]
7027 57 28_Re: Rashei Machaneh at Tavor0_18_Artbentoby@aol.com28_Sun, 3 Aug 2003 21:51:20 EDT365_US-ASCII <br><br>Meir Ciporen was also rosh machaneh of Tavor during 1967. (Sam just mentioned that he was rosh in 1966) I remember clearly that he was rosh during the big Detroit riot, which was in 1967.<br><br>I agree with Aliya that Eddie Weisblatt was rosh in 1965. Yehuda Weissbach was rosh in 1963. Dave Paradise in 1961 and 1962, unless he was merakez. [...]
7085 41 12_(no subject)0_18_Green88888@aol.com28_Sun, 3 Aug 2003 22:32:49 EDT219_US-ASCII I agree with Aliya - I was KMBet Madricha at Tavor in 65 with Pete Braun and Bruce Kutnick. Eddie Weisblatt was Rosh Mcahaneh. Meir Ciporen who I knew from New York was definitely not at camp that summer. Donna
7127 50 33_Tavor Rashei Machaneh - last call0_14_KBob24@aol.com28_Sun, 3 Aug 2003 22:47:32 EDT130_US-ASCII Eddie - 65 Meir - 66, 67 Pete - 68 ??? - 69 (I was in Israel that summer) Rafi - 70<br><br>Any guesses on '69?<br><br>Ken
7178 37 16_Re: (no subject)0_15_Hamgal5@aol.com28_Sun, 3 Aug 2003 23:19:50 EDT112_US-ASCII wasn't danny kutnik rosh machaneh in 69???? jody(gillett) hamisha. I was in younger chotrim that summer
7216 46 28_Re: Rashei Machaneh at Tavor0_15_Emabear@aol.com28_Mon, 4 Aug 2003 00:04:28 EDT320_US-ASCII You guys just sent me down Memory Lane. Yehuda Weisbach parents, and brother, LeeShai, were living in Cincinnati and Yehuda was "shaliach" to Habonim there. He was the first real, live sabra that I had ever met. Instant crush! Dave Paradise was a madrich when I was a chanicha. Wow, time has sure sped by. Ellen
7263 29 28_Re: Rashei Machaneh at Tavor0_13_SC523@aol.com28_Mon, 4 Aug 2003 00:59:36 EDT519_US-ASCII Davy Paradise was Merakez in 1962 (the summer of the famous "Davy Paradise and the blue underwear incident") and I thought he was under Yehuda Weissbach but maybe I"m a year off on Yehuda. 1961 was Alan Pollack (we called him Charlie Polecat). Yehuda Weissbach brought a fellow named Yoram from his moshav with him - might he have been the merakez in 63 with Yehuda? I will find out from Davy whom the Rosh was - we'll get to the bottom of this finally. Amazing the details that sometimes seem important. [...]
7293 22 19_Re: Visiting Israel0_14_BUBELE@aol.com31_Mon, 04 Aug 2003 01:00:36 -0400582_iso-8859-1 UJC and Federation ran many bar & bat mitzvah tours several years ago, and probably still do. The young bar or bat Mitvah mensch went at no trave cost when with parents or grandparents.We took two granddaughters at ssentially no travel cost. One couple, from Tennessee I believe, brought their TRIPLETS, only airfare for the parents. About 35-40 youngsters participated in a service in the synagogue area on top of Masada, led by the Chief Rabbi in th IDF. After the youngsters service, te Rabbi asked all those adults who had never had a Bar or Bat Mitzvah to come [...]
7316 48 35_What is Required For Jews To Marry?14_Martin Goodman26_martinjgoodman@hotmail.com31_Mon, 04 Aug 2003 07:08:20 +0000590_- 4 August 2003<br><br>Shalom Pearl,<br><br>In your recent posting on Habonet, you wrote, "" Theoretically, any kosher Jew can perform a marriage of two other Jews, and they would be considered married in Jewish law, as long as the prescribed ceremony is carried out. ""<br><br>Actually according to most Orthodox interpretations of the Torah, neither a rabbi nor some other third person is required for a Jewish man and woman to marry. All that is necessary for a couple to become betrothed (i.e., married but not yet consumated) is for a woman to accept a token amount of money from [...]
7365 51 19_RE: Mapai and Mapam12_Meir Hurwitz21_meir_h@maccabi.org.il30_Mon, 4 Aug 2003 14:46:11 +0300410_us-ascii It wasn't Mapam that joined with Mapai, but AChdut Avoda. Mapam never joined the Labor Party, but did join later on to Meretz<br><br>------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---------- Come play "TAG" and get 200% of your investment very quickly. I got my first 200% the next day. And ANOTHER 200% of my 2nd spend on the next day !!! http://TAG-urIT.com/?r=510861 [...]
7417 75 39_A Brief History of Israel's Labor Party10_david baum23_rdbaum@netvision.net.il31_Mon, 04 Aug 2003 15:40:22 +0200149_iso-8859-8-i The Labor party and Mapam ??? for more info read a brief history. r&d baum<br><br><br><br>http://www.laborzionist.org/labor_history.html
7493 54 19_Re: Mapai and Mapam0_14_KBob24@aol.com28_Mon, 4 Aug 2003 08:57:47 EDT325_US-ASCII In a message dated 8/4/2003 7:47:47 AM Eastern Daylight Time, meir_h@maccabi.org.il writes:<br><br>> Mapam never joined the Labor Party<br><br>Mapam joined the Labor Party's "Ma'arach" list and ran jointly for a period of time. They weren't technically in the Labor Party, although it did blur some lines.<br><br>Ken
7548 23 27_FWD: A web-site of interest11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org30_Mon, 4 Aug 2003 09:23:32 -0500116_us-ascii This is one I just learned about<br><br>http://www.tampabayprimer.org/index.cfm?action=leftNav&drill=Israel
7572 128 19_RE: Visiting Israel11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com30_Mon, 4 Aug 2003 09:21:35 -0700481_iso-8859-1 Dear Ellen<br><br>Sorry, this was not an "organised" trip. Just a bar-mitzva gift to our grandson. We arranged very little of it from here, as we were familiar with Israel (I lived in Israel for close to seventeen years). My son Adi was bar-mitzva on Massada exactly twenty years ago, and we hadn't pre-arranged that, either. By luck, all of it worked out, and became a peak experience for all attending. I am not recommending that you leave so much to blind luck. [...]
7701 58 36_Re: Machaneh, new and old traditions0_14_KBob24@aol.com28_Mon, 4 Aug 2003 12:20:59 EDT345_US-ASCII In a message dated 8/3/2003 5:46:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, carmdave@urim.org.il writes:<br><br>> How old is Nancy's father? I seem to remember that he and one or the > other of my fathers (or both) knew each other.<br><br>Thanks for the family insight. Mickey Philips is 76. What are your fathers names? I'll check in with him. [...]
7760 32 27_Young Judaea and Habonim---0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com28_Mon, 4 Aug 2003 12:27:36 EDT568_US-ASCII I went to Camp Young Judaea in New Hampshire form the age of 8-11 because my cousin was on the board of directors....But i was the only person there from south of the Mason-Dixon line (everyone else was from Boston and surrounding areas)...When I went back to Baltimore, and tried to find a Young Judaea branch in my area there was none-and when I started Sunday School, my teacher, Mike Riesman, was from Habonim and started to put a guilt trip on me that I had to start making choices....I went toi a coupe of Habonim meetings with Judy Glasner....and [...]
7793 59 60_Mosh visitors day (was RE: Machaneh, new and old traditions)12_Stopak, Noam20_NStopak@orionsci.com30_Mon, 4 Aug 2003 12:50:48 -0400540_- > -----Original Message----- > From: Naomi Goldberg Honor [mailto:naomijgh@yahoo.com] > Sent: Friday, August 01, 2003 9:41 AM > To: habonet@shamash.org > Subject: RE: Machaneh, new and old traditions > > > Noam-- > > Was Benji Glazer rosh in '72? Rachel Velelli was our > KMBet madricha that summer and I am pretty sure that > Ricky was there and the KM madrich was Carl, whose > last name escapes me. Tammy -- you out there? > > With the change of location, I guess people can't row > over to Pier 7 anymore. What do kids do to get [...]
7853 23 18_Re Jewish Marriage11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org30_Mon, 4 Aug 2003 11:50:46 -0500719_us-ascii >From a book by Harvey E. Goldberg Jewish Passages, Chapter 4: Marriage<br><br>http://www.ucpress.edu/books/pages/9977/9977.ch04.html<br><br>------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/<br><br>* * FREE JEWISH LEARNING * * Shamash invites you to join MyJewishLearning.com, a comprehensive, objective, authoritative and interactive learning resource in all areas of Judaism. Free membership via http://www.myjewishlearning.com/shamash ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------=
7877 195 36_RE: Machaneh, new and old traditions12_Stopak, Noam20_NStopak@orionsci.com30_Mon, 4 Aug 2003 13:07:56 -0400343_- Well Esther, for the record my parents and I'm sure Chaim too went to the camp on the Severn and probably had a hand in building the camp on Old Duff Road. My father was also instrumental in the construction of the Moadon Madrichim at the Parole site.<br><br>Best to Heidi, Dave, Chip, Rachel and Shosh (and you too Esther and Aviva!!) [...]
8073 37 21_Re: Mosh visitors day20_Naomi Goldberg Honor18_naomijgh@yahoo.com36_Mon, 4 Aug 2003 10:07:01 -0700 (PDT)374_us-ascii Noam--<br><br>To look around at the people who are enthused about makhela at the kumsitz in New York these lasy couple of years, I think that it must have been about at the end of its road when we were at Mosh.<br><br>After all, once you've heard the amelim singing round, round, I get around with David Glaser, how can you go back to stuffy old Hebrew songs? [...]
8111 56 21_Re: Mosh visitors day13_richard smith19_rdsmith1957@msn.com30_Mon, 4 Aug 2003 13:19:47 -040081_iso-8859-1 As far as I am concerned, once they stopped doing Gidget plays at Mosh
8168 53 21_Re: Mosh visitors day15_Judith R Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Mon, 04 Aug 2003 13:32:32 -0400286_us-ascii Huh? WHat are you talking about? Judy<br><br>richard smith wrote:<br><br>> <?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" />As far as I > am concerned, once they stopped doing Gidget plays at Mosh it became > it became caffeine free-Airy/Louise. (Just kidding, kinda.)
8222 58 30_Rainbow Grocery's Boycott Vote11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com30_Mon, 4 Aug 2003 10:25:21 -0700534_iso-8859-1 Habonet<br><br>As far as I know, no vote for de-shelving Israeli products was taken last Friday at Rainbow Grocery Coop.<br><br>A source has told me that they did have a middle-of-the-night or early morning invasion in which thirty-plus posters were scattered throughout the store, decrying the injustice (never mind the bad taste) of even taking such a vote (they have never taken a vote to de-shelve products of any of the states or countries that support terrorism, homicide bombings, targeting of children, etc.). [...]
8281 69 36_Re: Machaneh, new and old traditions14_Holtzer Family20_carmdave@urim.org.il30_Sun, 3 Aug 2003 20:47:30 +0200488_iso-8859-1 My fathers were Raanan and Eddin Spiwack. Raanan would have been 84 today and Dean would have been 82. So Raanan could have been Mickie's madrich that summer at camp. Dean, as I said, didn't get to go that summer at all, but I believe he and my mother, Sandra (Sandy) Guzman Spiwack were at Accord together a few years later. For some reason, I seem to remember that the summer I was Nancy's KMBet madricha, our parents did find a connection, but I may be imagining that. [...]
8351 21 16_Deception Dollar11_Phil Safier17_psafier@elixa.com31_Mon, 04 Aug 2003 12:47:41 -0600701_us-ascii Check it out. Be sure to mouse over W's face to see his spiritual father. http://www.deceptiondollar.com/5Front.htm<br><br>------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/<br><br>* * FREE JEWISH LEARNING * * Shamash invites you to join MyJewishLearning.com, a comprehensive, objective, authoritative and interactive learning resource in all areas of Judaism. Free membership via http://www.myjewishlearning.com/shamash ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------=
8373 58 20_Re: Deception Dollar13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il30_Mon, 4 Aug 2003 21:52:56 +0200408_iso-8859-1 Expect bad news for the foreseeable future James Lileks<br><br><br><br>We live in a pre-fascist state, you know. The coup of 2000, the Reichstag fire of 9-11, the endless wars of aggression - it's all there as plain as the small mustache that would be on George W. Bush's face if he were honest. All that's missing is the one piece of evidence that proves we're reliving the Nazi horrors ... [...]
8432 74 64_Re: Mosh visitors day (was RE: Machaneh, new and old traditions)0_15_Marshlf@aol.com28_Mon, 4 Aug 2003 15:46:22 EDT601_US-ASCII In a message dated 8/4/03 9:48:54 AM Pacific Daylight Time, NStopak@orionsci.com writes:<br><br><br><br>> When did they stop having a hatzagah and a makelah performance ><br><br>yes, noam, it sort of leaves you wanting, doesn't it? even last session there were a few songs sung that were great. the few (4-5) years i have been back at visitors' day there has been no hatzagah, no real makelah. there was one rikud performance that i remember, tho you can see that rikud is alive and well-loved at camp. i guess no one is interested in putting together any production. there certainly is [...]
8507 57 64_Re: Mosh visitors day (was RE: Machaneh, new and old traditions)13_richard smith19_rdsmith1957@msn.com30_Mon, 4 Aug 2003 15:55:53 -0400149_iso-8859-1 In defense of modern Mosh, in the "old days" visitors day was third weekend and now a-days with the two week sessions, visitors day is the
8565 134 64_RE: Mosh visitors day (was RE: Machaneh, new and old traditions)12_Stopak, Noam20_NStopak@orionsci.com30_Mon, 4 Aug 2003 16:02:29 -0400405_- <br><br><br><br>-----Original Message----- From: richard smith [mailto:rdsmith1957@msn.com] Sent: Monday, August 04, 2003 3:56 PM To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: Re: Mosh visitors day (was RE: Machaneh, new and old traditions)<br><br><br><br>In defense of modern Mosh, in the "old days" visitors day was third weekend and now a-days with the two week sessions, visitors day is the second weekend. [...]
8700 53 64_Re: Mosh visitors day (was RE: Machaneh, new and old traditions)0_15_Moshava@aol.com28_Mon, 4 Aug 2003 16:57:20 EDT571_US-ASCII each shichva takes a turn preparing an unbelievably wonderful oneg shabbat which includes dancing (israeli and modern), singing (small makelah and large makelah) and a skit. one of the parent's day problems which wasn't discussed is space. we can't really do much of a dance with the tiny bit of room left after chairs are placed for families. also, the madrichim think the parents may be bored with a long show but the parents want to see the kids show off! we are working on it..... ruach is alive and well, not to worry. tammy proud registrar of a great [...]
8754 246 27_Fw: Labor in the Government13_Yehuda Riemer20_aminadav@urim.org.il30_Tue, 5 Aug 2003 00:23:17 +0200647_iso-8859-1 Permit me a few comments to Marty Goodman's reply to Amnon Hadary: Marty wrote: "Let's not forget that it was Ben Gurion's Labor government, which controlled Israel's government and economy for the first 29 years of Israel's existence, that dumped traditional/Orthodox Mizrachi immigrants in Dimona and other Arey Pituach (development towns) and then abandoned them in order to invest in the mostly Ashkenazi Mercaz. For Ben Gurion, the Mizrachim were a mindless chomer gelem (raw material) with which to build armies and to perform manual labor that was unpalatable to European immigrants. Ehud Barak admitted as much a number of [...]
9001 58 64_Re: Mosh visitors day (was RE: Machaneh, new and old traditions)15_Judith R Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Mon, 04 Aug 2003 18:25:50 -0400550_us-ascii The hatzagot were wonderful, but they were a huge strain on the tzvet in terms of time for rehearsal, making costuming, constructing sets, etc. They also cost a lot to buy and you needed a director with good hebrew who basically did nothing else. In fact, that seems to have been all we did until parents' day first four and until maccabiah second four. While we did a broadway musical in hebrew first four, we didn't do a play second four, we did the makelah and rikud show. (Correct me if I am wrong, but I remember that parents' day [...]
9060 25 31_Re: Young Judaea and Habonim---0_13_SC523@aol.com31_Mon, 04 Aug 2003 19:09:55 -0400333_iso-8859-1 This is a very interesting connection but it will surprise you to know that Camp Young Judaea in New Hampshire has nothing to do with the Young Judaea movement. It is totally independent and many people confuse it with the movement camps (like Spout Lake, Tel Yehuda, the camp in the Southeast, the Southwest, etc.). [...]
9086 210 24_MB and Chadashot Ad info27_The Habonim Dror Foundation26_foundation@habonimdror.org30_Mon, 4 Aug 2003 19:22:48 -0400547_iso-8859-1 Dear Habonetters,<br><br><br><br><br><br>How exciting to return to my office and see so much discussion of days of machaneh gone by! I spent last week in Budapest where I met the MB group, just before they left Europe. The kids were thrilled to be going to Israel and were having an overall amazing experience. It was clear as ever how important it is for us to make sure HDNA continues to facilitate these experiences. The MB kids have so much energy and enthusiasm and they are bringing it all back to their (and our!) machanot. [...]
9297 34 31_Re: Young Judaea and Habonim---0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com28_Mon, 4 Aug 2003 19:38:33 EDT412_US-ASCII <br><br>In a message dated 8/4/03 4:10:31 PM, SC523@aol.com writes:<br><br><< This is a very interesting connection but it will surprise you to know that Camp Young Judaea in New Hampshire has nothing to do with the Young Judaea movement. It is totally independent and many people confuse it with the movement camps (like Spout Lake, Tel Yehuda, the camp in the Southeast, the Southwest, etc.). >> [...]
9332 72 21_Re: Mosh visitors day0_18_Rachelbern@aol.com28_Mon, 4 Aug 2003 19:46:30 EDT452_US-ASCII <<As far as I am concerned, once they stopped doing Gidget plays at Mosh it became it became caffeine free-Airy/Louise. (Just kidding, kinda.)>><br><br>Those were the days-- but to be realistic, all the participating tzevet and chanichim would be sent home for presenting one scene from, say "Gidget Goes Greek," considering the current hyper-PC nature of the world (going back, at least, to my last summer as a madricha, Gilboa in 1981) [...]
9405 26 31_Re: Young Judaea and Habonim---0_15_Marshlf@aol.com28_Mon, 4 Aug 2003 22:34:24 EDT523_US-ASCII i never was aware of the politics of young judea as a 9-year old, but it was thru YJ that i became a moshnick: my YJ leader was ami cohen's girlfriend debbie (later wife), and she steered me to mosh when i was looking for a jewish camp.<br><br>lisa<br><br>------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...]
9432 56 48_Aloha, Bach chorales, Babi Yaar, Peter Pan......11_Lon Ephraim14_cbma@erols.com31_Mon, 04 Aug 2003 22:59:52 -0400564_us-ascii Ever since I became a Mosh parent years ago, there's been a new tradition at Mosh.<br><br>On Yom Horim, we alum find each other and grouse & bitch & moan at the back of the MLC while in the front, our kids sway back & forth with their arms around each other, singing a song - melody only - that they seem to have learned that morning and often to no accompaniment. We reminisce about our fully produced Hebrew productions of popular musicals, 4 voice makhelot which consisted, it seemed, of most of the machaneh in matching chultzot, and beautifully [...]
9489 52 19_The glory days past15_Judith R Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Tue, 05 Aug 2003 00:12:53 -0400626_us-ascii Dear Noam,<br><br>Shelley accurately describes our tradition. Welcome to the club, or shall we say "chug"?<br><br>Not to undercut our sense of our own performance skills too much, but my theater-buff parents --esp my long suffering non-habonim raised father--to this day, when describing a show they found overlong, uninteresting and badly done, refer to it as "visiting day at Mosh". They have refused 10 invitations to visiting day to see their beloved grandchildren (who they seem to go anywhere else to see) under the excuse that they have already completed their punishment and it is now my turn to suffer. [...]
9542 52 23_Re: The glory days past13_richard smith19_rdsmith1957@msn.com30_Tue, 5 Aug 2003 00:19:51 -040011_iso-8859-1 
9595 898 79_Update From The Israeli Consulate - Surge in Number of Tourists Visiting Israel16_Sharon Weissbach18_sgweis01@iglou.com30_Tue, 5 Aug 2003 00:37:35 -0400459_windows-1255 The virtual tour of Israel is really fun!<br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br>Consulate General of Israel<br><br>Philadelphia<br><br><br><br><br><br>VISIT THE CONSULATE NEW WEBSITE!<br><br><br><br>Surge in Number of Tourists Visiting Israel<br><br>Tourism to Israel is on the rise. During this year's second quarter, the number of tourist entries into Israel rose by an annualized 38.9 percent and the number of hotel overnights by 21.1 percent. [...]
10494 28 19_Re: Visiting Israel12_Doug Greener25_ddwgreen@netvision.net.il31_Tue, 05 Aug 2003 00:03:20 +0200413_iso-8859-1 Birthright programs are only for college-age and young adults (c. 19-26, I think) who have never been to Israel with an organized group or tour. They are 10-day trips that cover all of Israel, timed for college vacations. Those who have been on initial birthright trips can participate in a follow-up trip at low cost. They have a website that gives all the details - www.birthright.org, I think. [...]
10523 52 52_Re: Aloha, Bach chorales, Babi Yaar, Peter Pan......12_Doug Greener25_ddwgreen@netvision.net.il31_Tue, 05 Aug 2003 09:35:23 +0200435_iso-8859-1 Shelly (and others),<br><br>I wax nostalgic at all the hatzagot and neshafim too ...<br><br>Here in Israel, the Frankel Masorti School in Jerusalem puts on a production of a musical every year (in Hebrew) - adapting wherever they have to so that every child in the school (from 4th grade) does something - mostly with parents taking the major parts - such as 50 children in a dance sequence that was originally a duet! [...]
10576 44 64_Re: Mosh visitors day (was RE: Machaneh, new and old traditions)0_13_SC523@aol.com28_Tue, 5 Aug 2003 03:21:42 EDT597_US-ASCII Tammy's email is very interesting. The only part of my kids' chinuch program at Galil that I never understood was the raucous parodies that were called Onegei Shabbat. This is going to sound really queer ("back in the olden days") but when I was growing up, Onegei Shabbat were really serious. We used Jewish folk tales, midrashim, anti-prejudice or discrimination skits - it was no more than 20 minutes, but the shichva putting on each oneg rehearsed every day all week until Friday night. It was a serious production with home-made props but dedicated acting. The result of a good [...]
10621 58 20_bar mitzva in Israel7_skolnik25_pskolnik@netvision.net.il31_Tue, 05 Aug 2003 12:24:52 +0200606_windows-1255 there is a rabbi in Jerusalem, Rabbi Karzen (an American), who wrote a book about arranging bar mitzvas in Israel, and he also arranges such celebrations in Israel for those interested. You may be interested in speaking with Helen Frenkley, formerly of Habonim, who is the director of a beautiful national park, which is also a beautiful setting for a bar mitzva, as it is a park based on biblical plants, and has ancient water installations of great interest, as well as guided tours, special holiday exhibits, performances, etc. The park is called Naot K'dumim, and you can write Helen [...]
10680 24 8_Sad News11_Sam Bergman22_sambergman@comcast.net31_Tue, 05 Aug 2003 07:16:57 -0400439_us-ascii Madeline (Woolf) Bergman passed away this morning in Beer Sheva. For information about the funeral, call 08-6436069 after 6 pm today Israel time.<br><br>Sam Bergman<br><br>------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...]
10705 120 9_The Fence13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il30_Tue, 5 Aug 2003 18:19:48 +0200323_windows-1255 Stratfor.com has some interesting observations of the Security Fence. It is correct in noting that the Fence does not solve all our problems, but it does provide protection only if the barrier is impermeable. In other words, nobody gets across, not for jobs, not for visits, not in Jerusalem, not at all. [...]
10826 34 23_Re: The glory days past20_Naomi Goldberg Honor18_naomijgh@yahoo.com36_Tue, 5 Aug 2003 08:57:56 -0700 (PDT)628_us-ascii Judy--<br><br>And you think your parents suffered??<br><br>My parents came all the way down from New Jersey to sit in the sun and listen to various things be mangled in a range of languages.<br><br>Naomi<br><br>__________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com<br><br>------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...]
10861 26 12_Re: Sad News0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com28_Tue, 5 Aug 2003 12:01:26 EDT440_US-ASCII Madeline (Maddy) Was my first madricha in Habonim, along with Sarah Finklestein. She was a beautiful, graceful, gracious and caring person, who was always "there" for us- our group was a handful, and if ever there was a "dugma" to follow, it was Maddy. Although the years have led us to different places, memories of her will be with us always. I don't need to say "zichrona l'vracha"- because I am sure it already is.....sue [...]
10888 41 12_RE: Sad News11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com30_Tue, 5 Aug 2003 09:06:52 -0700735_us-ascii Sam<br><br>Please accept my condolences. Sorry.<br><br>Steve Klein<br><br>-----Original Message----- From: owner-habonet@shamash.org [mailto:owner-habonet@shamash.org]On Behalf Of Sam Bergman Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2003 4:17 AM To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: Sad News<br><br><br><br>Madeline (Woolf) Bergman passed away this morning in Beer Sheva. For information about the funeral, call 08-6436069 after 6 pm today Israel time.<br><br>Sam Bergman<br><br><br><br>------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...]
10930 45 19_RE: Visiting Israel11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com30_Tue, 5 Aug 2003 09:09:58 -0700704_iso-8859-1 Doug, Trudy<br><br>The site is a PREGNANCY site. Do you have an alternative?<br><br>Steve<br><br>-----Original Message----- From: owner-habonet@shamash.org [mailto:owner-habonet@shamash.org]On Behalf Of Doug Greener Sent: Monday, August 04, 2003 3:03 PM To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: Re: Visiting Israel<br><br><br><br>Birthright programs are only for college-age and young adults (c. 19-26, I think) who have never been to Israel with an organized group or tour. They are 10-day trips that cover all of Israel, timed for college vacations. Those who have been on initial birthright trips can participate in a follow-up trip at low cost. They have a website that gives all the details [...]
10976 28 16_Deception Dollar11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com30_Tue, 5 Aug 2003 09:41:37 -0700308_iso-8859-1 Habonet<br><br>I know I will probably be sorry I did this, but I am compelled to dissociate myself from any linkage with the "Deception Dollar" posting. I am in the same club, but I am unwilling to be painted with the same brush (and, obviously, unable to hold my tongue.)<br><br>Steve Klein [...]
11005 77 28_Baby's first alien abduction13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il30_Tue, 5 Aug 2003 20:13:44 +0200555_windows-1255 I know that this is not a usual subject for our list, but I found this site while I was blogging and felt that I just had to share it. Here's a page about baby's first alien abduction. That's right, a book for pre-schoolers on what it's like to ride that beam of light up to the "big silver ball" in the sky, so they won't be "traumatized" by the experience when they're adults. For those of you with an interest in early childhood education (especially, I suppose, in California) this could be the learning aid you've been waiting for. [...]
11083 352 38_RE: Realities of Repatriating Settlers12_Stopak, Noam20_NStopak@orionsci.com30_Tue, 5 Aug 2003 15:27:07 -0400688_- This Israeli, writing in the NY Times could just as easily be particupating in the discussion on habonet.<br><br>Noam<br><br>+++<br><br>August 2, 2003<br><br><br><br>Time to Move<br><br>By DAVID NEWMAN<br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br>B <http://graphics7.nytimes.com/images/dropcap/b.gif> EERSHEBA, Israel<br><br>When he met with Prime Minister Ariel Sharon of Israel in Washington this week, President Bush urged him yet again to freeze expansion of Israeli settlements in the West Bank and Gaza, whose existence is a constant roadblock in peace negotiations, including the "road map" now in play. Judging from Mr. Sharon's noncommittal response, Mr. Bush's plea fell on deaf ears. [...]
11436 58 36_RE: The glory days past (and future)12_Stopak, Noam20_NStopak@orionsci.com30_Tue, 5 Aug 2003 15:38:14 -0400434_- <br><br><br><br>> -----Original Message----- > From: Judith R Gelman [mailto:gelman@erols.com] > Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2003 12:13 AM > To: habonet@shamash.org > Subject: The glory days past > > > Dear Noam, > > Shelley accurately describes our tradition. Welcome to the club, or shall we say "chug"? > ...<br><br>Dear Judy, Shelly, Tammy, Lisa, Rachel, Naomi, Richard, Trudy and others who have contributed to this thread, [...]
11495 52 23_Re: The glory days past15_Judith R Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Tue, 05 Aug 2003 15:48:28 -0400576_us-ascii My parents didn't suffer more than others; they just have been teasing me about all things Habonim for 38 years! They always referred to the old Mosh's 'lush' grounds as "the only piece of Negev in Maryland."<br><br>My intellectual father's greatest Habonim related fear was that I would grow up thinking that Ber Borokov was more important than Lenin in the history of Marxism. (If only he had had an inkling of what to really worry about!) But about 3 years ago where we went to Israel together and stumbled upon BB's grave in the Kinneret cemetery, he was as [...]
11548 34 23_Re: The glory days past0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com28_Tue, 5 Aug 2003 15:52:36 EDT573_US-ASCII OK- I can't stay out of this- I resisted, but I am the epitome of co-dependence when it comes to Makhelah and Rikud and hatzagot at Mosh--We had Ha'arbah- Shlomo, Barry Richie, and Caspi, and Bev Sokol who was a whiz at directing- Somehow I didn't ever think that people felt left out of those hatzagot--since there was so much to do in every aspect. Tarbut was so intense at Mosh- it carried over to the halls of Hebrew College during the school year when we would agther during breaks and sing....I learned most of my Hebrew under "etz haShira"....Hatzagot [...]
11583 33 19_Re: Visiting Israel12_David Fleiss20_dfleiss@pipeline.com36_Tue, 5 Aug 2003 16:54:59 -0400 (EDT)809_us-ascii Try www.birthrightisrael.org<br><br>David<br><br>-------Original Message------- From: Steve Klein <kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com><br><br>Doug, Trudy<br><br>The site is a PREGNANCY site. Do you have an alternative?<br><br>Steve<br><br>------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/<br><br>* * FREE JEWISH LEARNING * * Shamash invites you to join MyJewishLearning.com, a comprehensive, objective, authoritative and interactive learning resource in all areas of Judaism. Free membership via http://www.myjewishlearning.com/shamash ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------=
11617 62 23_Re: The glory days past19_Orit Lowy Chicherio16_oritil@yahoo.com36_Tue, 5 Aug 2003 16:28:52 -0700 (PDT)582_us-ascii I'm in. When do we start?<br><br>By the way, Rachel, Sandy and I were comadrichot. Judy and Minna were next door. Thanks for the Joni Mitchell comment. It gave me a warm and fuzzy feeling.<br><br>Orit<br><br>LiberHawke@aol.com wrote: OK- I can't stay out of this- I resisted, but I am the epitome of co-dependence when it comes to Makhelah and Rikud and hatzagot at Mosh--We had Ha'arbah- Shlomo, Barry Richie, and Caspi, and Bev Sokol who was a whiz at directing- Somehow I didn't ever think that people felt left out of those hatzagot--since there was so much to do [...]
11680 62 24_Re: bar mitzva in Israel11_Greg Taylor25_gttaylor@worldnet.att.net30_Tue, 5 Aug 2003 18:35:53 -0700408_windows-1255 Rabbi Karzen, who we knew from the Northwest suburbs of Chicago, officiated at the joint bnai mitzvah of my daughter and nephew at the Kotel. We were in a private section where all the family could be together. It was a lovely service. We had two more bnai mitzvah (son and nephew) at Masada officiated by a colleague of Rabbi Karzen. They were also moving and nicely done. Cindy (Miller) Taylor
11743 55 64_Re: Mosh visitors day (was RE: Machaneh, new and old traditions)0_13_SC523@aol.com28_Wed, 6 Aug 2003 03:30:26 EDT316_US-ASCII I better clarify a few things. First of all, I spoke to Ari Levy (Rosh Naaleh 2003; former Moshnik) today and found out that I misunderstood Tammy's email - the Mosh onegei Shabbat are still parodies and silly skits about people in camp - they just happen to have songs and rikudei am woven into them. [...]
11799 53 64_Re: Mosh visitors day (was RE: Machaneh, new and old traditions)13_richard smith19_rdsmith1957@msn.com30_Wed, 6 Aug 2003 04:20:02 -040011_iso-8859-1 
11853 96 30_Israel bar/bat mitzva contacts7_skolnik25_pskolnik@netvision.net.il31_Wed, 06 Aug 2003 13:56:13 +0200551_windows-1255 In answer to the letters I received concerning making a bar/bat mitzva in Israel, here is the contact information.<br><br>Rabbi Ya'akov Karzen may be contacted at jkarzen@netvision.net.il His phone number in Jerusalem is 02-563-1018. He lives at 1 Diskin Street, Rechavia, Jerusalem.<br><br>His book "Off the Wall" may be ordered through Amazon. You can also order directly from him. The book is about his experiences making bar/bat mitzvas in Israel for foreign Jews. I am told (by his wife) that it is very entertaining and funny. [...]
11950 20 34_Concept Wizard/ Pipeline of hatred11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org30_Wed, 6 Aug 2003 06:06:38 -0500687_us-ascii This is extraordinary. To be seen and forwarded. http://www.conceptwizard.com/pipeline_of_hatred.html<br><br>------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/<br><br>* * FREE JEWISH LEARNING * * Shamash invites you to join MyJewishLearning.com, a comprehensive, objective, authoritative and interactive learning resource in all areas of Judaism. Free membership via http://www.myjewishlearning.com/shamash ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------=
11971 47 64_Re: Mosh visitors day (was RE: Machaneh, new and old traditions)0_15_Moshava@aol.com28_Wed, 6 Aug 2003 08:15:42 EDT517_US-ASCII maybe some of the oneh shabbat skits are full of laughs and silliness but i've myself witnessed quite a few "silly" plays with a very strong message. for example, there was one oneg put on by the 8th graders last year where they were searching for the habonim pillars, loosly based on carmen sandiego kind of "searching". they reviewed all the pillars, reasons for them and then they ended up in israel, full of zionism and excitement. you can give a full chinuch statement with lots of silliness and laughs.
12019 38 64_Re: Mosh visitors day (was RE: Machaneh, new and old traditions)0_15_Moshava@aol.com28_Wed, 6 Aug 2003 08:19:24 EDT200_US-ASCII the oneh shabbat is done but a different schichva every week. it gives everyone a chance to participate. even the kids that run across the stage with a sign to indicate which "scene" is next.
12058 31 34_Re: Israel bar/bat mitzva contacts0_14_KBob24@aol.com31_Wed, 06 Aug 2003 09:19:10 -0400629_iso-8859-1 Folks:<br><br>I thought I would join in since we just held our daughter Netta's Bat Mitzvah in Israel this summer. We held it at Pinat Shorashim, a biblical themed educational garden located at Kibbutz Gezer.<br><br>It was a wonderful service and a great party held in this idyllic outdoors environment. Officiating at the service was Rabbi Miri Gold the spiritual leader of Kehilat Birkat Shalom, a Reform synagogue based on Kibbutz Gezer and serving people from many communities in the Gezer area. Miri is originally American, made aliyah 27 years ago and received her rabbinic ordination from HUC in Jerusalem [...]
12090 62 64_Re: Mosh visitors day (was RE: Machaneh, new and old traditions)15_Judith R Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Wed, 06 Aug 2003 09:33:49 -0400536_us-ascii At Mosh, it was an anaf or a chug at one point. At another, people with "talent" were asked. Judy<br><br>SC523@aol.com wrote:<br><br>> I better clarify a few things. First of all, I spoke to Ari Levy (Rosh Naaleh > 2003; former Moshnik) today and found out that I misunderstood Tammy's email > - the Mosh onegei Shabbat are still parodies and silly skits about people in > camp - they just happen to have songs and rikudei am woven into them. > > I thought she meant that they did serious playlets like we used to do. > > [...]
12153 41 64_Re: Mosh visitors day (was RE: Machaneh, new and old traditions)0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com28_Wed, 6 Aug 2003 09:55:40 EDT317_US-ASCII We (at Mosh) used to have a va'ad oneg shabbat which was made up of kids from all shchavot- but who wanted to do it--w would plan a program and sometimes recruit other people who would be needed--but ,most of the time, it was a "chinuchi"-entertaining kind of thing.....that was from the late 50's-60's...sue
12195 30 13_Ne'ot Kedumim14_Martin Goodman26_martinjgoodman@hotmail.com31_Wed, 06 Aug 2003 14:39:23 +0000289_- Pearl is correct, Ne'ot Kedumim is a wonderful park, and it is worth a visit, even if one is not celebrating a Bar or Bat Mitzvah.<br><br>The park is located near Modi'in, close to the Green Line. Does anyone know which side of the line the park is located on?<br><br>Marty Goodman [...]
12226 38 17_Re: Ne'ot Kedumim15_Judith R Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Wed, 06 Aug 2003 11:09:59 -0400589_us-ascii Ammon knows because the memorial to his son is in that park.<br><br>Judy<br><br>Martin Goodman wrote:<br><br>> Pearl is correct, Ne'ot Kedumim is a wonderful park, and it is worth a > visit, even if one is not celebrating a Bar or Bat Mitzvah. > > The park is located near Modi'in, close to the Green Line. Does anyone know > which side of the line the park is located on? > > Marty Goodman > > _________________________________________________________________ > The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > [...]
12265 61 17_Re: Ne'ot Kedumim0_14_LHIAM1@aol.com28_Wed, 6 Aug 2003 11:01:36 EDT421_US-ASCII Chevre... IF the memorial to Oren, Amnon's son is in Neot Kedumim ... don't you ALREADY know what side of the green line Neot Kedumim is on :)<br><br>Hiam Simon Director of Advertising Jerusalem Post / Jerusalem Report Phone (212) 625-4802 Fax (212) 226-1940 Doing business without advertising, is like winking at a girl in the dark. You know what you are doing but nobody else does. Stewart Henderson Britt 1956
12327 567 46_Fw: Job Posting: Jewish Environmental Educator27_The Habonim Dror Foundation26_foundation@habonimdror.org30_Wed, 6 Aug 2003 11:43:23 -0400498_iso-8859-1 <br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br>Now Hiring:<br><br>Jewish Environmental Educators<br><br>WHAT: The Teva Learning Center is a Jewish environmental education organization which runs residential and camping programs for 1500 students from Reform, Conservative, Orthodox, and Community Jewish Day Schools throughout the Northeast each year. Seasonal educators live on-site and teach a curriculum to students that combines the study of ecology, environmental activism and Jewish ethics. [...]
12895 27 13_Onegei shabat11_Norman kane19_normk@earthlink.net36_Wed, 6 Aug 2003 09:03:52 -0700 (PDT)373_us-ascii At Gilboa, during the sixties, there were various vaadot (committees) for the Oneg Shabat, the Midura, for Tochnit erev, etc. Each kvutza was expected to have a representative to each vaad. The Vaad was expected to plan, organize and present the program. Obviously the madrichim did the bulk of the heavy lifting but everyone got involved one way or another. [...]
12923 66 46_Environmental Dimensions To the Geder Hafradah14_Martin Goodman26_martinjgoodman@hotmail.com31_Wed, 06 Aug 2003 16:08:52 +0000611_- 6 August 2003<br><br>The "security fence" / wall, which is currently under discussion and construction, has divided Israelis and foreigners alike for a number of years.<br><br>Originally, leaders in Labor supported the fence/wall as a way to protect against terrorist attacks, and leaders in Likud opposed it because they felt that it would lend legitemacy to the idea that everything outside of the fence should be handed over to the Palestinian Authority. More recently, Likud leaders have embraced the fence/wall and asserted that the wall is intended for security, but not to define a future border. [...]
12990 34 15_Visiting Israel11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com30_Wed, 6 Aug 2003 09:22:42 -0700312_iso-8859-1 It heartens me to be reading about all the renewed interest in family and Bar Mitzva excursions to Israel.<br><br>I had written about the guide we had for the first week of our trip. He was more than a guide; he was a lifetime experience.<br><br>Here are the parameters for getting ahold of him: [...]
13025 44 50_Re: Environmental Dimensions To the Geder Hafradah0_13_JLCAA@aol.com28_Wed, 6 Aug 2003 13:26:42 EDT368_US-ASCII Are you saying that putting a fence around Palestinian cities wouldn't be objectionable to Palestinians? Sounds like a prison to me with limited, controlled access/egress. The only thing missing would be a moat with sharks. Sounds like a SciFi movie a few years back where Manhattan was turned into a giant prison ... prisoners enter but can't leave. Avi Lyon
13070 83 50_RE: Environmental Dimensions To the Geder Hafradah12_Stopak, Noam20_NStopak@orionsci.com30_Wed, 6 Aug 2003 13:53:54 -0400663_- Avi,<br><br>the image that came to my mind was a ghetto<br><br>Noam Stopak, Mosh boy<br><br>-----Original Message----- From: JLCAA@aol.com [mailto:JLCAA@aol.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2003 1:27 PM To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: Re: Environmental Dimensions To the Geder Hafradah<br><br><br><br>Are you saying that putting a fence around Palestinian cities wouldn't be objectionable to Palestinians? Sounds like a prison to me with limited, controlled access/egress. The only thing missing would be a moat with sharks. Sounds like a SciFi movie a few years back where Manhattan was turned into a giant prison ... prisoners enter but can't leave. Avi Lyon
13154 35 14_geder hafradah0_12_SHX2@aol.com28_Wed, 6 Aug 2003 15:10:50 EDT651_US-ASCII >From an article by James Robbins...Now that it's been raised here on our forum, I couldn't resist.<br><br>Steven Hancoff<br><br><br><br>When Bad Neighbors Require Good Fences Facts on the ground in the Mideast.<br><br>The border security fence is comprised of many sections totaling scores of miles. Some sections are concrete, others sheet metal. The barrier is three layers deep in parts, fifteen feet high and surrounded by razor wire. The area around it is lit by spotlights, monitored by cameras, motion detectors and magnetic sensors, and patrolled by armed guards with attack dogs. But enough about our border with Mexico, let's [...]
13190 53 24_Recent Israeli Wage Data14_Martin Goodman26_martinjgoodman@hotmail.com31_Wed, 06 Aug 2003 19:18:10 +0000629_- Continuing trouble in the construction, education, tourism, and agricultural sectors of the Israeli economy are reflected in the following wage data that I have excerpted from Ha’Aretz (http://www.haaretz.co.il/hasite/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=326367&contrassID=1&subContrassID=1&sbSubContrassID=0)<br><br>Average Monthly Wage Data (May 2003) From Lischat Ha’Statistica (Bureau of Statistics)<br><br>I. All Salaried Employees – 6787 NIS (excluding West Bank and Gaza Strip), 2336000 workers. II. All Salaried Employees – 6688 NIS (including West Bank and Gaza Strip), 2416000 workers. III. Legal Foreign Workers – 4088 NIS [...]
13244 41 28_Re: Recent Israeli Wage Data0_13_JLCAA@aol.com28_Wed, 6 Aug 2003 15:48:00 EDT178_US-ASCII Martin: What is the spread between the lowest quintile and highest quintile? In other words, what is the economic disparity between the richest and the poorest? Avi Lyon
13286 144 50_Re: Environmental Dimensions To the Geder Hafradah13_moshe sheskin24_moshes7@netvision.net.il55_Wed, 06 Aug 2003 17:23:53 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time)682_iso-8859-1 A moat with sharks? Why didn't I think of this idea. I know you said it with tongue in cheek but it's cheaper than the wall and probably more effective.<br><br>Moshe<br><br>-------Original Message-------<br><br>From: habonet@shamash.org Date: Wednesday, August 06, 2003 1:28:19 PM To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: Re: Environmental Dimensions To the Geder Hafradah<br><br>Are you saying that putting a fence around Palestinian cities wouldn't be objectionable to Palestinians? Sounds like a prison to me with limited, controlled access/egress. The only thing missing would be a moat with sharks. Sounds like a SciFi movie a few years back where Manhattan was turned [...]
13431 40 50_RE: Environmental Dimensions To the Geder Hafradah12_Stopak, Noam20_NStopak@orionsci.com30_Wed, 6 Aug 2003 17:33:12 -0400514_- Maybe some of the congressmen and state department folks talking about taking away funds to stop construction of the barrier could patrol the moat?<br><br>On a more serious note, if the wall won't be effective, why build it? Is this another gambit to prod the negotiations forward?<br><br>Noam<br><br>-----Original Message----- From: moshe sheskin [mailto:moshes7@netvision.net.il] Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2003 5:24 PM To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: Re: Environmental Dimensions To the Geder Hafradah [...]
13472 84 19_Gesher Haziv Update0_18_Green88888@aol.com28_Wed, 6 Aug 2003 18:07:33 EDT512_US-ASCII Shloime- I went on a trip sponsored by the Jewish Agency the purpose of which was enrichment for Jewish educators. As part of the program, we went to Gesher Haziv to hear about the changes in Kibbutz. The meeting was conducted by Danny and Bonnie Kutnick who were the main speakers with the help of Tzvi Be'er. I also went to visit Tzvi and Aliza Elkin who were my Kibbutz parents. In short, Gesher Haziv is no longer a kibbutz as we know it,although a few services are still available to members. [...]
13557 31 17_Re: Ne'ot Kedumim12_Doug Greener25_ddwgreen@netvision.net.il31_Thu, 07 Aug 2003 01:11:31 +0200589_windows-1255 Neot Kedumim is inside the Green Line. The story was that when Nogah Reuveni asked Ben Gurion for a piece of land on which to establish his biblical garden, Ben Gurion threw him what was then considered a little-valued piece of real estate just inside the border. Today it is close to the thriving city of Modi'in and settlements such as Re'ut and Maccabim, also just inside the Green Line. When there were/are problems along Route 443, people from Jerusalem get to Neot Kedumim by going around the "long way," traveling towards Tel Aviv on the main highway and doubling [...]
13589 41 12_Re: Sad News0_23_jacknusan@earthlink.net36_Wed, 6 Aug 2003 19:43:16 -0800 (PST)440_us-ascii -------Original Message------- From: Sam Bergman <sambergman@comcast.net> Sent: 08/05/03 03:16 AM To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: Sad News<br><br>> > Madeline (Woolf) Bergman passed away this morning in Beer Sheva. For information about the funeral, call 08-6436069 after 6 pm today Israel time.<br><br>Sam Bergman<br><br><br><br><br><br>> Dear Sam: I am saddended but could you tell me, was this your sister or how related? [...]
13631 52 15_Re:Neot Kedumim0_18_Green88888@aol.com28_Wed, 6 Aug 2003 22:26:22 EDT358_US-ASCII I visited Neot Kedumim last summer and saw the memorial dedicated to Oren Hadary.<br><br>Neot Kedumim was the first stop on the Educator's Histalmut trip I took to Israel this summer. In fact, we went there directly from the airport! Our focus there was the tie that links man to earth-hearing the sounds of nature mingling with our own roots. [...]
13684 52 18_Re: geder hafradah12_Esther Cohen22_richard.steacy@gte.net30_Wed, 6 Aug 2003 22:20:51 -0400616_iso-8859-1 is this our james robbins - ny habonim, mb '76?? esther cohen washington, dc mosh 70-75+ mb 76 workshop 27 (gesher haziv) ----- Original Message ----- From: <SHX2@aol.com> To: <habonet@shamash.org> Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2003 3:10 PM Subject: geder hafradah<br><br><br><br>> >From an article by James Robbins...Now that it's been raised here on our > forum, I couldn't resist. > > Steven Hancoff > > > When Bad Neighbors Require Good Fences > Facts on the ground in the Mideast. > > The border security fence is comprised of many sections totaling scores of > miles. Some sections are concrete, [...]
13737 65 24_Ben Laden (not that one)13_richard smith19_rdsmith1957@msn.com30_Wed, 6 Aug 2003 22:49:06 -0400361_iso-8859-1 Speaking of three generation families, the Laden clan, is a three generation family too. Judy (mother Laden) went to Kennerat(?) in the 40's and was on the second workshop (Kfar Blum), her sons, (lets see if I can name them all: Ben, Ethan, Noam, Zev and Adam (not necessarily in that order)) went to Mosh in the 70's and 80's and now Ben's kids make
13803 149 63_SFWAR lifts anti-Israel language as it faces city, state probes11_Batel Libes25_batel_libes@earthlink.net30_Wed, 6 Aug 2003 21:30:33 -0700694_iso-8859-1 It's not only at Rainbow Grocery that anti-Israeli actions are attempted: This article is from the Northern California Jewish Bulletin<br><br>SFWAR lifts anti-Israel language as it faces city, state probes ABBY COHN Bulletin Staff Facing investigations by state and city agencies, a San Francisco rape crisis center has cooled its anti-Zionist language. Last week, an online application form asked volunteers and interns at San Francisco Women Against Rape to participate in "political education discussions" that have recently included "protesting the war and supporting Palestinian liberation and taking a stance against Zionism." On Tuesday, the form had been changed to ask [...]
13953 36 64_Re: Mosh visitors day (was RE: Machaneh, new and old traditions)0_13_SC523@aol.com28_Thu, 7 Aug 2003 01:33:19 EDT76_US-ASCII Great observation re: chinuchi message within lots of laughs! Aliya
13990 420 25_..BUILDING A GREAT NATION7_skolnik25_pskolnik@netvision.net.il31_Thu, 07 Aug 2003 11:34:38 +0200708_iso-8859-1 <br><br>Once in a while let us be slightly less critical, for our own mental health.....<br><br><br><br>16 ethiopean jews jewish arabs civilization jewish israeli BUILDING A GREAT NATION<br><br>DOESN'T ONLY TAKE BRAINS But It Sure Does Help!<br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br>.<br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br>.<br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br>Israel is one of the tiniest nations on the face of the earth... only about 8,000 sq. miles, 2½ times the size of Rhode Island and only slightly larger than the Canary Islands! It is only 260 miles at its longest, has a 112-mile coastline, is 60 miles at its widest, and only between 3 and 9 miles at its narrowest [from [...]
14411 104 28_Re: Ben Laden (not that one)11_Carol Shore21_c_shore@ix.netcom.com30_Thu, 7 Aug 2003 08:43:13 -0400352_iso-8859-1 Kol hakavod to the Laden family. But we must make a correction here - the largest family group at Galil this summer has been the Shore-Shahar-Novack families (siblings and cousins) at 7. Steve Shore ----- Original Message ----- From: richard smith To: habonet Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2003 10:49 PM Subject: Ben Laden (not that one) [...]
14516 76 17_Fwd: Neot Kedumim0_18_Green88888@aol.com28_Thu, 7 Aug 2003 10:22:43 EDT17_US-ASCII <br><br>
14593 116 23_RE: Gesher Haziv Update12_Stopak, Noam20_NStopak@orionsci.com30_Thu, 7 Aug 2003 12:05:42 -0400661_- Thanks for the report Donna. What does "relatively affordable prices" mean here?<br><br>Noam<br><br>-----Original Message----- From: Green88888@aol.com [mailto:Green88888@aol.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2003 6:08 PM To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: Gesher Haziv Update<br><br><br><br>Shloime- I went on a trip sponsored by the Jewish Agency the purpose of which was enrichment for Jewish educators. As part of the program, we went to Gesher Haziv to hear about the changes in Kibbutz. The meeting was conducted by Danny and Bonnie Kutnick who were the main speakers with the help of Tzvi Be'er. I also went to visit Tzvi and Aliza Elkin who were my [...]
14710 213 24_NY Times on Gibson movie13_Joel Winograd15_mail@jelaco.com30_Thu, 7 Aug 2003 11:38:28 -0500633_ISO-8859-1 Here is an interesting article on the Mel Gibson controversy. I am posting it as I don't recall if it already made it to Habonet. It was reprinted in Haaretz today.<br><br>Joel Winograd<br><br>----------------------------- The New York Times The New York Times Arts August 3, 2003<br><br><br><br>FRANK RICH Mel Gibson's Martyrdom Complex<br><br>The Jews didn't kill Christ," my stepfather was fond of saying. "They just worried him to death." Nonetheless, there was palpable relief in my Jewish household when the Vatican officially absolved us of the crime in 1965. At the very least, that meant we could go back to [...]
14924 54 12_Encirclement14_Martin Goodman26_martinjgoodman@hotmail.com31_Thu, 07 Aug 2003 17:09:38 +0000393_- 7 August 2003<br><br>Shalom Avi:<br><br>In your posting to me, you wrote regarding the alternative that has been considered by Tzahal of encircling individual Palestinian cities within security fences,<br><br>“”Are you saying that putting a fence around Palestinian cities wouldn't be objectionable to Palestinians? Sounds like a prison to me with limited, controlled access/egress… “” [...]
14979 272 67_Temple Denial: Arab leaders deny Jewish history on the Temple Mount11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org30_Thu, 7 Aug 2003 12:14:20 -0500883_ISO-8859-1 <br><br><br><br>---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: "atuch1" <atuchman@adl.org> Reply-To: SPME@yahoogroups.com Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 21:22:20 -0000<br><br><html><body><br><br><br><br><tt> On this eve of Tish'ah B'Av, I thought to share the following from <BR> the Anti-Defamation League Web site <BR> (<a href="http://www.adl.org/Anti_semitism/arab/temple_denial.asp).">http://www.adl.org/Anti_semitism/arab/temple_denial.asp).</a> If anyone <BR> is aware of any other examples of the phenomenon described, either on <BR> campus or off, please contact me. Thanks.<BR> -Aryeh Tuchman<BR> atuchman@adl.org<BR> <BR> Temple Denial: Arab leaders deny Jewish history on the Temple Mount<BR> <BR> The recent statements of Palestinian leaders warning of "grave <BR> consequences" of the "provocative" decision by Israel to<BR> allow Jews to [...]
15252 64 29_Re: ..BUILDING A GREAT NATION13_richard smith19_rdsmith1957@msn.com30_Thu, 7 Aug 2003 16:13:39 -0400249_iso-8859-1 "An aerial arsenal of over 250 F-16s, the largest fleet of the aircraft outside of the US."<br><br>This is a source of pride because...why? The Jewish lobby in the U.S. is so strong that they were able to get the U.S. taxpayers to pay for
15317 84 28_Fw: NY Times on Gibson movie13_richard smith19_rdsmith1957@msn.com30_Thu, 7 Aug 2003 16:26:51 -0400348_iso-8859-1 <br><br>----- Original Message ----- From: richard smith To: mail@jelaco.com Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2003 4:22 PM Subject: Re: NY Times on Gibson movie<br><br><br><br>"At the Washington screening, they included Peggy Noonan, Kate O'Beirne, Linda Chavez and"<br><br>BTW- As far as I know Chavez is, or was, Catholic, but I do know that
15402 53 23_Re: The glory days past0_18_Rachelbern@aol.com28_Thu, 7 Aug 2003 20:48:43 EDT408_ISO-8859-1 In a message dated 8/5/2003 7:48:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, oritil@yahoo.com writes:<br><br>> By the way, Rachel, Sandy and I were comadrichot. Judy and Minna were next > door. Thanks for the Joni Mitchell comment. It gave me a warm and fuzzy > feeling.<br><br>Sandy Eisen? I don't remember her being there at all. I'll have to go back and look at my photos from that summer (talk about fuzzy!).
15456 45 23_Re: The glory days past19_Orit Lowy Chicherio16_oritil@yahoo.com36_Thu, 7 Aug 2003 18:05:45 -0700 (PDT)461_us-ascii Sandy (Sandi?) Jacobs.<br><br>Rachelbern@aol.com wrote:In a message dated 8/5/2003 7:48:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, oritil@yahoo.com writes:<br><br>By the way, Rachel, Sandy and I were comadrichot. Judy and Minna were next door. Thanks for the Joni Mitchell comment. It gave me a warm and fuzzy feeling.<br><br>Sandy Eisen? I don't remember her being there at all. I'll have to go back and look at my photos from that summer (talk about fuzzy!). [...]
15502 83 16_Re: Encirclement14_Ethan Schwartz23_arava_eilat@hotmail.com30_Fri, 8 Aug 2003 09:32:15 +0300532_iso-8859-8-i Every Kibbutz I ever lived on or visited was encircled by a fence. I remember being instructed on my arrival at Yotvata in 1973, previous to the Yom Kipper war, not to go out of the fence after dark. Is it fair that everybody in the neighborhood build their own fence to keep the vicious dog of the bad neighbor out of their homes or should that neighbor be forced at their own expense to build a strong fence to contain his beast? Maybe it is about time that the fences are put in the correct places and that the [...]
15586 51 16_Re: Encirclement13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il30_Fri, 8 Aug 2003 10:23:29 +0200106_iso-8859-8-i Ethan, I know the metaphor isn't perfect, but sometimes it's est to shoot the dog.<br><br>Jon
15638 65 16_Re: Encirclement13_richard smith19_rdsmith1957@msn.com30_Fri, 8 Aug 2003 03:39:32 -0400246_iso-8859-8-i Ethan said, "Maybe it is about time that the fences are put in the correct places and that the "bad neighbors be billed for it as well."<br><br>You are right, those Palestinians have lots of money that could be used for that purpose.
15704 134 41_Reply re: Criticism of Orthodox prejudice0_13_SC523@aol.com28_Fri, 8 Aug 2003 04:01:45 EDT554_US-ASCII Dear Chevreh,<br><br>It has taken me a few days to research the answers to Pearl's accusations. No, Pearl, I didn't make up the report that often Orthodox Jews drop down to the gutter when they pass a church (I live across from a famous Greek Orthodox church and next door to a shteibel - the church has an awning, and, even when it's raining we see the Orthos step away from the awning, off the sidewalk and into the street everytime they pass; and yes, a different Orthodox person last week showed that she felt the same way about TEmple [...]
15839 95 29_Re: ..BUILDING A GREAT NATION0_13_JLCAA@aol.com28_Fri, 8 Aug 2003 11:28:31 EDT309_US-ASCII In a message dated 8/7/03 4:13:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rdsmith1957@msn.com writes:<br><br><br><br>> This is a source of pride because...why? The Jewish lobby in the U.S. is > so strong that they were able to get the U.S. taxpayers to pay for the first > and second largest fleets of F-16s? [...]
15935 55 16_Re: Encirclement0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com28_Fri, 8 Aug 2003 11:38:52 EDT553_US-ASCII In a message dated 8/8/2003 12:42:09 AM Pacific Daylight Time, rdsmith1957@msn.com writes:<br><br>> You are right, those Palestinians have lots of money that could be used for > that purpose<br><br>yeah- just ask arafat why his family is living in paris and where all of the money he was given for his people is sitting in Swiss and offshore bank accounts.oh, if the Palestinians need money, all they have to do is blow up a few innocent Israelis and their Arab cousins will be sure their families get their just rewards...OK so now hit me..sue
15991 63 16_Re: Encirclement0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com28_Fri, 8 Aug 2003 11:47:24 EDT470_US-ASCII In a message dated 8/8/03 11:40:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time, LiberHawke@aol.com writes:<br><br>> > yeah- just ask arafat why his family is living in paris and where all of the > money he was given for his people is sitting in Swiss and offshore bank > accounts.oh, if the Palestinians need money, all they have to do is blow up a few > innocent Israelis and their Arab cousins will be sure their families get > their just rewards...OK so now hit me..sue > [...]
16055 151 45_Re: Reply re: Criticism of Orthodox prejudice7_skolnik25_pskolnik@netvision.net.il31_Fri, 08 Aug 2003 19:06:32 +0200544_iso-8859-1 sorry, but I did not "accuse" you of anything. I found it hard to believe, that does not mean to say it is not so. In Israel, non-orthodox Jews and secular Jews are routinely serving as witnesses for marriages -- the majority of witnesses as it be are secular Jews, nonetheless they are halachically Jews and therefore qualify to serve as witnesses. I did not say you made up the fact that people go down into the gutter, I just found it an incredible fact -- I had never heard of nor seen such a phenomenon. In Miami Beach the [...]
16207 54 19_largesse and F-16's11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com30_Fri, 8 Aug 2003 09:19:36 -0700572_iso-8859-1 Habonet<br><br>Every once in a while, someone will bring up a comment about the "U.S. sending money to Israel". Most of the time, it is not said maliciously, but as a "matter of record".<br><br>Well, it is true. America does send money to Israel. But it is NEVER the three to four billion dollars that people blithely throw out there. The sum is made up of many components, some money to bolster an economy, that's for sure. America knows and recognises that her one true reliable ally in that part of the world struggles daily with the crushing burden of [...]
16262 77 45_Re: Reply re: Criticism of Orthodox prejudice15_Judith R Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Fri, 08 Aug 2003 13:03:59 -0400534_us-ascii Dear Pearl,<br><br>How Orthodox and progressive Jews relate differs greatly across the country and around the world. In the DC area, relations were very good but have gotten worse and worse over the past 20 years. 19 years ago, we had minor difficulty getting an Orthodox conversion for my infant (adopted) daughter. 4 years later, we had to go to Baltimore to get an Orthodox conversion for my son and 10 years ago we couldn't even do that for our third child. This is just one measure of how things have deteriorated. [...]
16340 33 51_Protocols of Elders of Zion Taught At U.C. Berkeley14_Martin Goodman26_martinjgoodman@hotmail.com31_Fri, 08 Aug 2003 18:42:50 +0000350_- The following URL from Arutz Sheva reports that a professor of the Arabic language at U.C. Berkeley has been teaching in his courses that the Protocols of the Elders of Zion are factual history.<br><br>http://www.a7.org/news.php?id=57477<br><br>I could not find the material reported on this Hebrew language URL anywhere else on the internet. [...]
16374 53 55_Re: Protocols of Elders of Zion Taught At U.C. Berkeley13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il30_Fri, 8 Aug 2003 21:53:41 +0200126_windows-1255 Anybody surprised about this? The story's at:<br><br>http://www.frontpagemag.com/articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=9277
16428 100 55_RE: Protocols of Elders of Zion Taught At U.C. Berkeley11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com30_Fri, 8 Aug 2003 13:43:05 -0700307_windows-1255 Jonathan<br><br>If the chancellor Robt Berdhal is already in the pockets of the enemy, what good is it to write him? A bunch of pushy Jews, reinforcing his existing prejudices. Who is his superior? Who is running the show? Anybody? Maybe the U of Berkeley Board of Directors needs a prod. [...]
16529 142 55_RE: Protocols of Elders of Zion Taught At U.C. Berkeley12_Stopak, Noam20_NStopak@orionsci.com30_Fri, 8 Aug 2003 17:02:40 -0400639_- Steve,<br><br>I think the University of California Board of Regents is the body you are looking for.<br><br>Noam<br><br>-----Original Message----- From: Steve Klein [mailto:kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com] Sent: Friday, August 08, 2003 4:43 PM To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: RE: Protocols of Elders of Zion Taught At U.C. Berkeley<br><br><br><br>Jonathan<br><br>If the chancellor Robt Berdhal is already in the pockets of the enemy, what good is it to write him? A bunch of pushy Jews, reinforcing his existing prejudices. Who is his superior? Who is running the show? Anybody? Maybe the U of Berkeley Board of Directors needs a prod. [...]
16672 173 55_RE: Protocols of Elders of Zion Taught At U.C. Berkeley11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com30_Fri, 8 Aug 2003 14:07:49 -0700638_iso-8859-1 MessageNoam<br><br>Thanks.<br><br>Steve -----Original Message----- From: owner-habonet@shamash.org [mailto:owner-habonet@shamash.org]On Behalf Of Stopak, Noam Sent: Friday, August 08, 2003 2:03 PM To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: RE: Protocols of Elders of Zion Taught At U.C. Berkeley<br><br><br><br>Steve,<br><br>I think the University of California Board of Regents is the body you are looking for.<br><br>Noam -----Original Message----- From: Steve Klein [mailto:kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com] Sent: Friday, August 08, 2003 4:43 PM To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: RE: Protocols of Elders of Zion Taught At U.C. Berkeley [...]
16846 40 45_Re: Reply re: Criticism of Orthodox prejudice0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com28_Fri, 8 Aug 2003 18:25:47 EDT543_US-ASCII <br><br>In a message dated 8/8/03 9:53:27 AM, gelman@erols.com writes:<br><br><< So, it is possible to accommodate one another if there is respect and a will to do so, but too often there is huge animosity. >><br><br>I think it was Golda who said that we are our own worst enemies, and thank God for the Arabs because if we didn't have them to fight, we'd be killing each other. I believe the best way to solve these kinds of problems is to go back to the basic book, and "do unto others" and "let it begin with me"--and try not [...]
16887 424 47_FW: An article on Jews by John McCain's brother11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com30_Fri, 8 Aug 2003 16:11:58 -0700598_iso-8859-1 <br><br>-----Original Message----- From: Leekay [mailto:leekay@comcast.net] Sent: Friday, August 08, 2003 3:54 PM To: fred brody Subject: Fw: An article on Jews by John McCain's brother<br><br><br><br>Subject: An article on Jews by John McCain's brother<br><br><br><br>Article on Jews by John McCain's brother<br><br>Great article and ever so true, everyone should read this and the best part is an educated non-Jew wrote it. It shows there are proper thinking people in this world; I just wish there were more of them. Ed Joe McCain is a person who connects the dots. A must read. [...]
17312 79 23_Re: largesse and F-16's13_richard smith19_rdsmith1957@msn.com30_Fri, 8 Aug 2003 20:42:37 -0400504_iso-8859-1 I have a suspicion that very little of it is altruism and largesse. Maybe none.<br><br>Steve Klein<br><br>I never suggested altruism or largesse was involved at all. Nor did I suggest that Jews, or any other group, doesn't have the right to lobby for their own interests. I merely suggested that having the second biggest F-16 fleet in the world, at least partially, if not substantially, paid for by American tax payers is an odd thing to point to as a source of pride for the Israeli nation.
17392 172 40_Was Machaneh Really As Great as You Say?0_14_KBob24@aol.com28_Sat, 9 Aug 2003 00:05:41 EDT353_ISO-8859-1 At the risk of getting nasty comments or "leave us alone" emails, I have to ask....<br><br>Over the past`few weeks there have been meaningful and fun exchanges about our experiences at machaneh. In parallel, the Habonim Dror Foundation has been putting together a special issue of Chadashot celebrating 70 years of Habonim Dror camping. [...]
17565 30 24_Yassir Arafat's Business14_Martin Goodman26_martinjgoodman@hotmail.com31_Sat, 09 Aug 2003 05:49:30 +0000642_- Shalom Sam,<br><br>Yassir Arafat earned a degree in civil engineering from Cairo University. If I am not mistaken, he also worked as a contractor in the oil patch in Saudi Arabia.<br><br>Marty Goodman<br><br>_________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail<br><br>------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...]
17596 77 46_Authentic Jews and the Orthodox-Secular Divide14_Martin Goodman26_martinjgoodman@hotmail.com31_Sat, 09 Aug 2003 08:43:11 +0000478_- Shalom Aliya,<br><br>I’d like to discuss your response to Pearl’s comments on your posting in which you asserted that Orthodox Jews do not regard non-Orthodox Jews to be authentic Jews.<br><br>You wrote, "" ... Rabbi Moshe Feinstein … does not consider non-Orthodox rabbis authentic witnesses nor does he accept other witnesses who are non-Orthodox… The only good thing that … came out of Feinstein's tshuva … was … he used it to … to allow … [agunot] to marry again. “” [...]
17674 289 21_Humanitarian officers13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il30_Sat, 9 Aug 2003 12:48:15 +0200563_windows-1255 IDF expands humanitarian officers program<br><br><br><br>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Joel Leyden Aug. 8, 2003<br><br>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br><br>It's 2 p.m. at the Kalandia checkpost on a boiling summer's day. A long, crowded line of Palestinians wait to enter Ramallah. Young Israeli combat soldiers are positioned in front of them, standing behind grey concrete barriers and above on a dusty hilltop sweating inside guard towers. [...]
17964 252 25_Re: Humanitarian officers15_Judith R Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Sat, 09 Aug 2003 08:50:41 -0400712_us-ascii Too bad the US doesn't have this program in Baghdad. Judy<br><br>Jonathan Baum wrote:<br><br>> IDF expands humanitarian officers program > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Joel Leyden Aug. 8, 2003 > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > It's 2 p.m. at the Kalandia checkpost on a boiling summer's day. A > long, crowded line of Palestinians wait to enter Ramallah. > Young Israeli combat soldiers are positioned in front of them, > standing behind grey concrete barriers and above on a dusty hilltop > sweating inside guard towers. > > The 18-year-old troops appear ready for anything. > > They have been trained for [...]
18217 59 28_Re: Yassir Arafat's Business0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com28_Sat, 9 Aug 2003 08:58:41 EDT521_US-ASCII In a message dated 8/9/03 1:49:48 AM Eastern Daylight Time, martinjgoodman@hotmail.com writes:<br><br>> Yassir Arafat earned a degree in civil engineering from Cairo University. > If > I am not mistaken, he also worked as a contractor in the oil patch in Saudi > Arabia. ><br><br>And his work in the oil fields earned him a billion dollars. After earning his billion dollars he selflessly devoted himself to the Palestinean cause and worked for no pay. He never took any salary or was involved in any corruption.
18277 256 28_RE: MB and Chadashot Ad info12_Stopak, Noam20_NStopak@orionsci.com30_Sat, 9 Aug 2003 09:59:09 -0400367_- Hi Rachel,<br><br>Sorry I'm late. I'd like a 1/4 page ad that reads:<br><br><br><br>Thanks for being there for several generations in the past 70 years and best wishes for many more in the future.<br><br>Noam Stopak & Shelley Sturman, Emily Stopak, Bex, Dani &Sasha Levine<br><br><br><br>Maybe put the text in bold with a larger font and the names in italics? [...]
18534 29 29_Lost my connection to Habonet14_Florence Glick18_glicks@comcast.net30_Sat, 9 Aug 2003 12:25:17 -0700344_US-ASCII Somehow I lost my connection to Habonet. Could you please reinstate me?<br><br>We're the second of a fourth generation connection to Poalei Zion and Habonim, and even maybe a fifth because my grandfather's brother settled in Israel as a chalutz before WW I, if that counts.<br><br>I'm Marni Glick's mother and Eddie Glick's wife. [...]
18564 155 35_Bein ha-Metzarim - Was Encirclement12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Sat, 09 Aug 2003 22:44:41 +0200585_us-ascii A kippah wearing Likud member of Knesset tried to bully his way onto the Temple Mount on Tisha'a b'Av. It was an attempted replay of mass murder - three years earlier Sharon had marched into the Temple compound and unleashed the second intifada<br><br>In its general non-specific sense bein ha-metzarim means to find oneself in a tight spot or in dire straits. In its specific, the Orthodox calendar refers to the three weeks between the 17th of Tammuz when the walls of Jerusalem were breached and the 9th of Av when the Second Temple was destroyed in 70 C.E. (actually [...]
18720 140 44_Re: Was Machaneh Really As Great as You Say?0_14_Ohanka@aol.com28_Sat, 9 Aug 2003 16:41:43 EDT448_ISO-8859-1 <br><br>In a message dated 8/9/03 12:09:55 AM, KBob24@aol.com writes:<br><br><< At the risk of getting nasty comments or "leave us alone" emails, I have to<br><br>ask....<br><br><br><br>Over the past`few weeks there have been meaningful and fun exchanges about<br><br>our experiences at machaneh. In parallel, the Habonim Dror Foundation has been<br><br>putting together a special issue of Chadashot celebrating 70 years of Habonim [...]
18861 138 45_Re: Reply re: Criticism of Orthodox prejudice7_skolnik25_pskolnik@netvision.net.il31_Sun, 10 Aug 2003 02:01:59 +0200609_ISO-8859-1 Judy, I believe, I believe.... I can believe anything after my experiences in Israel... I know that my grandfather, who was a rabbi, told me that conservative Judaism was more of a danger to orthodoxy than was Reform Judaism. The reason: conservative Judaism "mascerades" as halachic Judaism, whereas the Reform telll you outright that they do not follow halachic Judaism. You know where they stand. The two years I was in the States I worked on Sundays in a large Reform Temple. Many of the teachers were orthodox. Rabbi Moshe Feinstein z"l okayed orthodox teachers in such temples, but also [...]
19000 75 11_the funeral7_skolnik25_pskolnik@netvision.net.il31_Sun, 10 Aug 2003 02:21:24 +0200611_windows-1255 Although Maddy's funeral was held on Friday, many of her old friends made their way from all over the country to be with each other and the family. Ruth Ann Farber-Sadeh from Kiryat Bialyk, Hadar and Dina Matmon from Kfar Saba, Ehud and Rossi Gelb from Rechovot, Danny Frank from Orot, Sarah Finklestein, Trudy Greener, Lenny Labensohn, and I from Jerusalem, Helen Frenkley and Ora Kantoroff from Tel Aviv, Sarah Poster, Naomi Benders, Gingy Kogan, Morty Epstein, Etta Pollack, and so many more chaverim that I did not recognize after 40 years of not seeing them. Perhaps the greatest tribute [...]
19076 194 73_"ot's our job to explain Israel to the world" / Ha'aretz, August 10, 200311_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org30_Sat, 9 Aug 2003 19:06:22 -0500535_us-ascii The URL:<br><br>http://www.iacnet.org<br><br><br><br>`It's our job to explain Israel to the world'<br><br>By David Mintz<br><br><br><br><br><br>A group of largely English-speaking immigrants have set up an organization aimed at "countering anti-Israel propaganda" in a proactive manner. Through its Web site (www.iacnet.org), the Israel Action Center (IAC) is hoping to present facts about Israel's position in the Middle East that will give international groups and journalists "a balanced understanding" of the region. [...]
19271 90 45_Re: Reply re: Criticism of Orthodox prejudice15_Judith R Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Sun, 10 Aug 2003 00:29:52 -0400348_us-ascii Dear Pearl,<br><br>You put your finger on one key to the problem when you write:<br><br>> Rabbi Moshe Feinstein z"l > okayed orthodox teachers in such temples, but also said that an orthodox Jew > could not daven there.<br><br>In other words, the orthodox can peddle their brand of Judaism for money but not learn anything in return. [...]
19362 30 15_Re: the funeral0_14_KBob24@aol.com31_Sun, 10 Aug 2003 01:31:25 -0400560_iso-8859-1 In a message dated 8/9/2003 8:21:24 PM Eastern Daylight Time, pskolnik@netvision.net.il writes:<br><br>> Although Maddy's funeral was held on Friday, many of her > old friends made their way<br><br>Pearl:<br><br>Thank you for your touching words regarding Maddy's funeral.<br><br>Ken<br><br>------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...]
19393 128 45_Re: Reply re: Criticism of Orthodox prejudice0_13_SC523@aol.com29_Sun, 10 Aug 2003 01:38:38 EDT574_UTF-8 Judy's writing, in both of her emails to Pearl, is so incredibly eloquent, I am astounded that people like Pearl and Marty simply don't understand what she is saying. They must not wish to understand, is all that I can figure out.<br><br>We have given you a half dozen examples of Orthodox prejudice against non-Orthodox Jews. You simply are not willing to look at them for what they are - out and out sinat chinam. The Reform temple situation that Pearl describes was probably over two decades ago - the Reform movement has changed much since then - with people [...]
19522 63 36_RE: Machaneh, new and old traditions11_Hank Kaplan16_hkmg@comcast.net31_Sat, 09 Aug 2003 23:11:09 -0700586_us-ascii My family is another member of the "4th generation" club. My grandparents, Bertha Zaklad and Morris Wolfson, met in Young Poalei Tzion, Habonim's precurser. My father, Ed Glick, worked at Killingworth. He met my mom, Florence Wolfson, at a Habonim meeting in New York City. They later worked at Amenia together. My brother and I went to Galil for many years. I first started as an Amela in 1966 and eventually became Rosh Galil in 1979. My husband, Hank Kaplan, was a Na'aleh boy, and his parents were in Dror in post-war Europe. Our daughter, Esther, just came back from [...]
19586 180 45_Re: Reply re: Criticism of Orthodox prejudice7_skolnik25_pskolnik@netvision.net.il31_Sun, 10 Aug 2003 09:26:21 +0200597_iso-8859-1 Judy, I am NOT an orthodox Jew... I do not add adjectives to my identity. I am a Jew, period. I think adjectives are very divisive. I made comments on what I observed and which surprised me. I also worked once for a Reconstructionist temple in Buffalo, as a Hebrew teacher. I almost was fired there too, because, trying to develop a Jewish historical identity in the kids (~1959), I asked them which tribe their family belonged to: cohen, levy or Israel. Wow! Didn't know that Reconstructionists don't recognize this "division." My brother is a Conservative rabbi, and I recognize [...]
19767 216 45_Re: Reply re: Criticism of Orthodox prejudice7_skolnik25_pskolnik@netvision.net.il31_Sun, 10 Aug 2003 09:39:57 +0200524_UTF-8 aliya, i admit that changes have occurred in reform judaism, and I foretold changes 23 years ago when I told the rabbi of the temple that in 30 years the temple will either be sold to a church or it will become (more) orthodox. There would be no other way to remain Jewish, and the changes in the REform movement have taken place gradually since the end of WW2. But it was very gradual, as millions of Jews over that time were lost to Judaism. In 1957, I was told by my principal in a Reform temple in Buffalo, I [...]
19984 120 45_Re: Reply re: Criticism of Orthodox prejudice0_13_SC523@aol.com29_Sun, 10 Aug 2003 03:01:56 EDT507_US-ASCII <br><br>In a message dated 8/10/03 2:22:46 AM, pskolnik@netvision.net.il writes:<br><br><br><br>> the very high birth rate of the religious ><br><br>Aieeeeee! Please do not use this word to mean Orthodox. Many of us are religious and are decidedly not Orthodox.<br><br>And you wrote:<br><br>because they are fighting a sometimes losing battle, and whatever they have to do to get their congregants into the synagogue and bring in the children of mixed marriages has my complete understanding. [...]
20105 84 36_Re: Machaneh, new and old traditions0_13_SC523@aol.com29_Sun, 10 Aug 2003 03:09:28 EDT436_US-ASCII Now that is what I call true "yichis" - and proud to hear it!!!<br><br>By the way, where was the machaneh that used to be in Amenia? I"m curious because my husband just finished being the rabbi in Amenia for 3 years - a little teeny doll house of a congregation that could fit no more than 50 people in it. It is on the road that goes between New YOrk's Route 22 and Sharon, CT crossing over the border between NY and CT. [...]
20190 69 45_Re: Reply re: Criticism of Orthodox prejudice13_richard smith19_rdsmith1957@msn.com31_Sun, 10 Aug 2003 03:18:28 -0400365_iso-8859-1 Pearl said: But halachic conversion and necessity of get must be followed today, if we are to guard the future of the Jews as One People.<br><br>Could someone, preferably Pearl, explain to this secular (not reformed, not reconstructionist, not conservative) Jew what this means? What is "halachic" conversion? What is the "necessity of get?" I understand
20260 45 45_Re: Reply re: Criticism of Orthodox prejudice0_13_SC523@aol.com29_Sun, 10 Aug 2003 03:49:50 EDT300_US-ASCII A halachic conversion entails, study (becoming learned about Judaism), tvila (dipping in a mikveh), and mila (circumcision otherwise tipat dam, one drop of blood) if it is a male.<br><br>A get means a religious divorce according to the laws of tractate "gittin" - Jewish, not civil, divorce.
20306 77 45_Re: Reply re: Criticism of Orthodox prejudice13_richard smith19_rdsmith1957@msn.com31_Sun, 10 Aug 2003 04:07:27 -0400545_iso-8859-1 Am I correct in assuming that the "halachic" conversion is a necessity because there are just too many goyim lining up to become Jews and we just can't let them all into the club?<br><br>As an aside: Charlie Chaplin was often "accused" of being Jewish which he never denied. He wasn't (secular or religious) Jewish at all, but never said so because he felt denying it would have been an insult to his brother (different fathers). It's kind of funny that the "good" Jews here wouldn't have considered his brother Jewish anyway. I guess
20384 37 45_Re: Reply re: Criticism of Orthodox prejudice15_Judith R Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Sun, 10 Aug 2003 10:48:05 -0400615_us-ascii Chaplin's brother was as Jewish as King David, whose grandmother was that shiksha Ruth.<br><br>Pearl's call for halachic conversion isn't quite answered by Aliya's definition because you can have study, tvila and mila and if the witnesses aren't Orthodox, you've got gornisht in their eyes. My son Josh is in this situation---his conversion is through Rabbi Sid Schwarz, a leader in the Recon movement. Like his brother's and sister's, it will be reaffirmed through bar mitzvah. But unlike them, his name is not on the Orthodox registry of "valid" conversions. Now, he is a boy so his "taint" will be [...]
20422 110 28_speaking of hebrew school...12_Stopak, Noam20_NStopak@orionsci.com31_Sun, 10 Aug 2003 11:00:13 -0400508_- <br><br><br><br>-----Original Message----- From: SC523@aol.com [mailto:SC523@aol.com] Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2003 3:02 AM To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: Re: Reply re: Criticism of Orthodox prejudice<br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br>... Conservative synagogues do not allow children in the Hebrew school from mixed marriages if the mother is not the Jewish parent unless the child converts<br><br><br><br>Well that helps me cut down the list of hebrew schools I need to check out for my daughter.... [...]
20533 128 32_Re: speaking of hebrew school...11_David Ferri26_david-ferri@wordmaster.com31_Sun, 10 Aug 2003 10:13:49 -0500621_us-ascii At 11:00 AM -0400 8/10/03, Stopak, Noam wrote: > > >-----Original Message----- >From: SC523@aol.com [mailto:SC523@aol.com] >Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2003 3:02 AM >To: habonet@shamash.org >Subject: Re: Reply re: Criticism of Orthodox prejudice > > > ... >Conservative synagogues do not allow children in the Hebrew school >from mixed marriages if the mother is not the Jewish parent unless >the child converts > > >Well that helps me cut down the list of hebrew schools I need to >check out for my daughter.... > >Chevre in the DC area, I'd really like to hear about your >experiences with hebrew schools in [...]
20662 84 45_Re: Reply re: Criticism of Orthodox prejudice0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com29_Sun, 10 Aug 2003 11:58:10 EDT539_US-ASCII Pearl wrote<br><br>> I think the only true building blocks we have to insist on is giur > k'halacha > and get, if we are to remain "am echad." > > I respedtfully disagree. Giur k'halacha is a divisive. Many Jews like myself see the official "halachic" courts as a racket to make money and divide the Jewish people. I firmly condemn the notion that guir k'halacha has any relevance to me and the Jews I associate with. On the other hand, I view it as an intrusion into my life and my way of being Jewish. There are additional [...]
20747 161 45_Re: Reply re: Criticism of Orthodox prejudice15_Judith R Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Sun, 10 Aug 2003 12:41:23 -0400540_us-ascii As I understand"guir k'halacha", you mean that we can all be one people with no divisions if we all live the same way with the same rules, interpreted by the same authorities. That's an awful high price to pay and is no guarantee against assimilation. Assimilation started long before the establishment of the modern progressive movements. It started in reaction to Orthodoxy, when Jews had the option of leaving these rules behind and joining modernity. Zionism was one alternative, the original reform movement was another. [...]
20909 39 18_Facts about Arafat14_Martin Goodman26_martinjgoodman@hotmail.com31_Sun, 10 Aug 2003 17:01:12 +0000404_- Shalom Sam,<br><br>You wrote regarding Yassir Arafat, "" ... his work in the oil fields earned him a billion dollars. After earning his billion dollars he ... never took any salary or was involved in any corruption. ""<br><br>Except for unchecked allegations that abound in urban legend, I have no corroborated information about how much money Arafat has or how much of it was obtained corruptly. [...]
20949 202 32_RE: speaking of hebrew school...12_Stopak, Noam20_NStopak@orionsci.com31_Sun, 10 Aug 2003 13:10:46 -0400419_- Hi David,<br><br>I plan to send her to Moshava next summer, though it is not clear whether that qualifies as a Jewish camp for some on this list. I'm also not sure if some would allow her to go to a Habonim Machaneh either, as her mother isn't Jewish (though her maternal grandmother claims some Jewish heritage so perhaps she is Jewish according to those who require membership in the "master race" after all). [...]
21152 48 9_masochism16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Sun, 10 Aug 2003 13:49:12 -0400351_us-ascii In Habonet 2662, Amnon writes<br><br>> In the mikves of the shtetl preceding yom kippur and the 9th of Av Jews would stand in line to be ritually beaten by a functionary > with switches of fresh branches - Talk about a sado-masochist anaf. > Amnon, do you mean to tell us that Opus Dei is actually part of the international Jewish conspiracy?
21201 37 45_Re: Reply re: Criticism of Orthodox prejudice0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Sun, 10 Aug 2003 13:53:47 EDT156_US-ASCII judy and pearl- go and see 'kadosh'- two sisters, two points of view; orthodox and 'secular'- it is interesting to note which sister survived...sue
21239 48 45_Re: Reply re: Criticism of Orthodox prejudice15_Judith R Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Sun, 10 Aug 2003 14:12:07 -0400263_us-ascii I have seen kadosh. What is your point in this context? Judy<br><br>LiberHawke@aol.com wrote:<br><br>> judy and pearl- go and see 'kadosh'- two sisters, two points of view; > orthodox and 'secular'- it is interesting to note which sister > survived...sue
21288 90 32_RE: speaking of hebrew school...11_David Ferri26_david-ferri@wordmaster.com31_Sun, 10 Aug 2003 15:06:56 -0500474_us-ascii At 1:10 PM -0400 8/10/03, Stopak, Noam wrote: >Hi David, > >I plan to send her to Moshava next summer, though it is not clear >whether that qualifies as a Jewish camp for some on this list. I'm >also not sure if some would allow her to go to a Habonim Machaneh >either, as her mother isn't Jewish (though her maternal grandmother >claims some Jewish heritage so perhaps she is Jewish according to >those who require membership in the "master race" after all). [...]
21379 62 45_Re: Reply re: Criticism of Orthodox prejudice13_richard smith19_rdsmith1957@msn.com31_Sun, 10 Aug 2003 16:25:27 -0400138_iso-8859-1 Sam wrote, "I am not intentionally being prejudice"<br><br>You are not being prejudiced at all. You are not prejudging, you are
21442 35 13_hebrew school0_15_Marshlf@aol.com29_Sun, 10 Aug 2003 16:34:17 EDT622_US-ASCII noam, yes there are some conservative congregations that enforce what is a tenet of the USCJ, but in reality i think it is rare that they ever actually demand to see a "bris certificate." the hard line that says a jew who is intermarried cannot hold any position of authority in the synagogue--board member, teacher etc-- also rarely is enforced in my experience teaching here in the dc area for 20 years. the main difference is in the outreach--most conservative congregations do not have formal outreach to mixed couples, while reconstructionist (and reform?) do. the teaching styles differ also--my worst [...]
21478 179 32_RE: speaking of hebrew school...12_Stopak, Noam20_NStopak@orionsci.com31_Sun, 10 Aug 2003 16:56:08 -0400686_- <br><br><br><br>-----Original Message----- From: David Ferri [mailto:david-ferri@wordmaster.com] Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2003 4:07 PM To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: RE: speaking of hebrew school...<br><br><br><br>At 1:10 PM -0400 8/10/03, Stopak, Noam wrote:<br><br>Hi David,<br><br><br><br><br><br>I plan to send her to Moshava next summer, though it is not clear whether that qualifies as a Jewish camp for some on this list. I'm also not sure if some would allow her to go to a Habonim Machaneh either, as her mother isn't Jewish (though her maternal grandmother claims some Jewish heritage so perhaps she is Jewish according to those who require membership in the "master [...]
21658 147 45_Re: Reply re: Criticism of Orthodox prejudice7_skolnik25_pskolnik@netvision.net.il31_Mon, 11 Aug 2003 00:45:52 +0200586_iso-8859-1 aliya, sorry I was "stereotyping." My brother has orthodox smicha, but is a rabbi in a conservative temple where he has tripled membership -- still it is an ongoing battle to bring all ages into the synagogue on a regular basis. His is a halachic congregation, but he does not do conversions: he studies with the converts, prepares them totally for conversion, and then flies with them to New York and an orthodox body of rabbis there does the conversion. I know there are conservative synagogues less stringent. Two of his converts told me they are very glad that they [...]
21806 97 45_Re: Reply re: Criticism of Orthodox prejudice13_richard smith19_rdsmith1957@msn.com31_Sun, 10 Aug 2003 18:16:27 -0400604_iso-8859-1 Pearl stated: "I think that the problem of bringing in mixed marriage children is probably greater in reformed/reconstructionist temples, where there would be higher intstances of intermarriage."<br><br>What is the problem??? As a full-blooded Jew, who has proudly never belonged to any synagogue and haven't been in one since my buddies were getting bar and bot mitzvas, I would love to know why you think these half-breeds going to shul is a problem? Maybe there should be a separate section for these Jewish mulattos? Or maybe they should have their own shuls with half Jewish rabbis? [...]
21904 69 22_Re: Facts about Arafat7_skolnik25_pskolnik@netvision.net.il31_Mon, 11 Aug 2003 01:18:05 +0200636_windows-1255 before my nephew was killed in Jenin, he fought in Ramallah. After entering Arafat's office and taking apart all the hard disks from the computers, he found 1,500,000 forged American dollars in Arafat's private office, as well as huge amounts of forged Israeli money. Forging money of other countries is a way to undermine their currency. In the records he found in Arafat's private office there were recorded hundreds of millions of dollars sent to Arafat's private bank accounts in Europe and elsewhere. Ehud Ya'ari, Israel's most famous Arab affairs commentator, wrote in his book about Arafat, that Arafat himself [...]
21974 259 45_Re: Reply re: Criticism of Orthodox prejudice7_skolnik25_pskolnik@netvision.net.il31_Mon, 11 Aug 2003 01:40:48 +0200499_iso-8859-1 you write "don't come looking here for YOUR am echad if these are YOUR rules..." They are NOT my rules, and it is not MY am echad -- it is OUR am echad and the rules til now of Judaism.. Giur k'halacha, get, brit, matrilineal descent are bases of am echad. After that a Jew can do what the hell he wants to and he is still a Jew. Nobody can take it away from him. There has to be some basis to unity. build a strong foundation for the house, and then you are free to build the house [...]
22234 110 45_Re: Reply re: Criticism of Orthodox prejudice7_skolnik25_pskolnik@netvision.net.il31_Mon, 11 Aug 2003 02:01:49 +0200585_iso-8859-1 I mean by "problem" the NEED to actually bring them in to the synagogue in order to strengthen their Jewish identity, i.e., a positive mitzva. The word "problem" here meant the problem we have of getting them to want to come into the synagogue, the difficulty WE have in enticing them to want to come into the synagogue. You interpreted my sentence the opposite of what I intended. I shall try to be clearer in future. Also, the definition of a People is a people with a specific culture, language, and sometimes also similar religion. Judaism's culture is a religious [...]
22345 155 45_Re: Reply re: Criticism of Orthodox prejudice13_richard smith19_rdsmith1957@msn.com31_Sun, 10 Aug 2003 19:43:34 -0400458_iso-8859-1 Pearl stated:<br><br>"I mean by "problem" the NEED to actually bring them in to the synagogue in order to strengthen their Jewish identity, i.e., a positive mitzva. The word "problem" here meant the problem we have of getting them to want to come into the synagogue, the difficulty WE have in enticing them to want to come into the synagogue. You interpreted my sentence the opposite of what I intended. I shall try to be clearer in future." [...]
22501 143 16_Beyn Ha"Metzarim14_Martin Goodman26_martinjgoodman@hotmail.com31_Sun, 10 Aug 2003 23:49:15 +0000336_- Shalom Amnon:<br><br>In your posting entitled Beyn Ha"Metzarim, you wrote, "" A kippah wearing Likud member of Knesset tried to bully his way onto the Temple Mount on Tisha'a b'Av. It was an attempted replay of mass murder - three years earlier Sharon had marched into the Temple compound and unleashed the second intifada... "" [...]
22645 80 20_Re: Beyn Ha"Metzarim13_richard smith19_rdsmith1957@msn.com31_Sun, 10 Aug 2003 20:06:20 -0400323_iso-8859-1 Martin stated: "However, the 1956 war (just 8 years after the state was founded) had one purpose only, i.e., to seize control of the Suez Canal together with France and Britain. Regardless of the military success of this war, it ought not to be regarded as an example of non-Orthodox Zionism working well." [...]
22726 59 45_Re: Reply re: Criticism of Orthodox prejudice0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Sun, 10 Aug 2003 21:45:43 EDT299_US-ASCII In a message dated 8/10/2003 3:37:06 PM Pacific Daylight Time, pskolnik@netvision.net.il writes:<br><br>> He was mentally disturbed and I often wondered who was responsible for his > conversion. > ><br><br>I worked for a rabbi like that and I wonder who was responsible for his smicha!--sue
22786 58 32_Re: speaking of hebrew school...11_Greg Taylor25_gttaylor@worldnet.att.net31_Sun, 10 Aug 2003 21:43:15 -0700181_iso-8859-1 MessageNoam, What part of DC do you live in? Please respond to GTTaylor@att.net and I will give you some of my observations from living in that area. Cindy Taylor<br><br>
22845 139 32_RE: speaking of hebrew school...11_David Ferri26_david-ferri@wordmaster.com31_Sun, 10 Aug 2003 22:10:30 -0500280_us-ascii >David, > >I asked a question about hebrew schools in the DC area and you took >it upon yourself to instruct me on the value of various activities >with regard to Jewish education. If you dismiss what I have to say, >then why did you bother to enter the discussion? [...]
22985 705 32_RE: speaking of hebrew school...0_25_batel_libes@earthlink.net31_Sun, 10 Aug 2003 20:16:44 -0700566_iso-8859-1 Noam, I got a more complicated one for you. My brother is married to a woman who converted, and though I simply didn’t care if it was reform, conservative or any other title, I do know for sure it wasn’t orthodox. When my brother, who is an Israeli citizen, took his daughters to Israel, he had to take out an Israeli passport for them with all the responsibilities of an Israeli citizen attached. So, according to the orthodox, most of whom do not serve in the army, my nieces are not really Jewish, yet the Israeli government considers them enough [...]
23691 85 45_Re: Reply re: Criticism of Orthodox prejudice15_Judith R Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Sun, 10 Aug 2003 22:56:15 -0400393_us-ascii Dear Pearl,<br><br>I am not sure I understand what you were saying when you wrote:<br><br>I think that the problem of bringing in mixed marriage children is probably greater in reformed/reconstructionist temples, where there would be higher instances of intermarriage. It is hard enough to bring in apathetic Jews to the synagogue, let alone non-jewish spouses/children of Jews. [...]
23777 84 32_RE: speaking of hebrew school...11_David Ferri26_david-ferri@wordmaster.com31_Sun, 10 Aug 2003 22:42:54 -0500584_us-ascii At 8:16 PM -0700 8/10/03, <batel_libes@earthlink.net> wrote: >Noam, I got a more complicated one for you. My brother is married to >a woman who converted, and though I simply didn't care if it was >reform, conservative or any other title, I do know for sure it >wasn't orthodox. When my brother, who is an Israeli citizen, took >his daughters to Israel, he had to take out an Israeli passport for >them with all the responsibilities of an Israeli citizen attached. >So, according to the orthodox, most of whom do not serve in the >army, my nieces are not really Jewish, [...]
23862 149 23_Criticism or Orthodoxy.12_Meir Hurwitz21_meir_h@maccabi.org.il31_Mon, 11 Aug 2003 08:14:56 +0300362_US-ASCII Dear Pearl et al<br><br><br><br><br><br>I've been following the discussion of Orthodoxy. It's made me sad.<br><br>Since Orthodoxy AND Conservatism AND most of Reform are really types of idol worshipping as a good Jew I would rather not have anything to do with them. The question is NOT mainly one of prejudice even though it exists, but idolatry. [...]
24012 718 32_Re: speaking of hebrew school...7_skolnik25_pskolnik@netvision.net.il31_Mon, 11 Aug 2003 08:19:23 +0200586_iso-8859-1 Messagebatel, the question was asked in order to force him to give her a get! If the wife can be thought to be having or had relations with another man during her marriage that is grounds for a forced divorce. The husband can not forceably hold his wife as an agunah, and as a divorcee she can get financial aid from the State and bituach leumi (social security) can force ex husband to support the ex wife and their children. ----- Original Message ----- From: batel_libes@earthlink.net To: Habonet Sent: Monday, August 11, 2003 5:16 AM Subject: RE: speaking of hebrew [...]
24731 39 32_Re: speaking of hebrew school...0_13_SC523@aol.com29_Mon, 11 Aug 2003 01:25:00 EDT449_US-ASCII Noam,<br><br>I don't know your situation but I hope that everyone understood that what I meant about Conservative shuls applied to a mother who is not Jewish not a mother who is a convert to Judaism. Gerim and Gyorot (converts) - many today call them Jews by Choice - are considered fully Jewish if the conversion was a serious one. But if the mom is absolutely not Jewish, then the child cannot apply to a Conservative Hebrew school. [...]
24771 137 32_RE: speaking of hebrew school...12_Stopak, Noam20_NStopak@orionsci.com31_Mon, 11 Aug 2003 09:23:50 -0400500_- ...<br><br>No doubt, people should be able to choose whatever path they wish to follow. I'll stand next to you and march for that right. You exercised that right when you married someone non-Jewish. I suspect that you knew at the time that the Conservative and Orthodox branches of Judaism do not accept mixed marriages, so it should come as no surprise to you that the policy continues today. Ironically, you complain that they don't accept your choices, yet you don't accept their's either. [...]
24909 36 28_Re: Yassir Arafat's Business0_13_JLCAA@aol.com29_Mon, 11 Aug 2003 10:38:06 EDT64_US-ASCII Obviously, Mr Arafat was a very astute investor! :) Avi
24946 40 22_Re: Facts about Arafat0_13_JLCAA@aol.com29_Mon, 11 Aug 2003 10:57:51 EDT188_US-ASCII Not that it matters much .. unless you're a Palestinian, but if I remember correctly, Forbes Magazine estimated Arafat's personal fortune at $300 million. Lets not exaggerate. Avi
24987 185 27_RE: Criticism or Orthodoxy.11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Mon, 11 Aug 2003 08:29:14 -0700390_US-ASCII Dear Meir<br><br>For reasons of my own, I am not going to get into these discussions. Somewhere in me, I believe that the Jewish people is strengthened by them, and I am following them avidly. Even the occasional off-the-wall bonkers stuff.<br><br>However, your posting puzzled me. Could you explain the "idolatry" comment more thoroughly? This one caught me from left field. [...]
25173 36 32_The Board of Regents at Berkeley11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Mon, 11 Aug 2003 08:44:16 -0700397_iso-8859-1 Habonet<br><br>I've found an address to get the messages through to the Board of Regents concerning the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" affair.<br><br><br><br>To: http://robin@mail.alumni.berkeley.edu" She has promised to pass the letters along to the Board when they meet later this month, so please write now.<br><br>The "Protocols-in-the-classroom" professor is Abbas Khadim. [...]
25210 103 7_kashrut16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Mon, 11 Aug 2003 11:51:43 -0400567_us-ascii In Habonet 2663, Pearl Skolnik writes that<br><br>> Something like keeping kosher so > all Jews can eat in your home: it does not hurt a Jew to eat kosher, but it > does hurt a traditional Jew to eat traif. ><br><br>Pearl, I happen to agree with this observation as far as it goes. But I'd like to suggest a bit of calm amidst all the sturm und drang that the subject of Orthodox/non-Orthodox has raised. It's my own belief that all Jewish organizations should be kasher in their institutional emanations. Kashrut is, or should be, a unifying standard. [...]
25314 109 45_RE: Reply re: Criticism of Orthodox prejudice12_Stopak, Noam20_NStopak@orionsci.com31_Mon, 11 Aug 2003 11:58:43 -0400552_- <br><br><br><br>-----Original Message----- From: skolnik [mailto:pskolnik@netvision.net.il] Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2003 8:02 PM To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: Re: Reply re: Criticism of Orthodox prejudice<br><br><br><br>I mean by "problem" the NEED to actually bring them in to the synagogue in order to strengthen their Jewish identity, i.e., a positive mitzva. The word "problem" here meant the problem we have of getting them to want to come into the synagogue, the difficulty WE have in enticing them to want to come into the synagogue. [...]
25424 114 32_Re: speaking of hebrew school...15_Judith R Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Mon, 11 Aug 2003 12:26:28 -0400674_us-ascii Dear Aliya,<br><br>It is always difficult to elucidate the "Reconstructionist position" because our 110 congregations are much more autonomous than those in the other movements, at least in theory. Patrilineal descent is one movement wide position--we accept without conversion as Jewish those adults who are committed to Judaism as their only religion and who are descended from either a Jewish mother or father. In practice, in my congregation several women in this category have undergone tvila so that there is no question across the progressive movements of the status of their children. (Conservative communities accept our conversions, which follow the [...]
25539 80 32_RE: speaking of hebrew school...11_David Ferri26_david-ferri@wordmaster.com31_Mon, 11 Aug 2003 11:03:07 -0500362_us-ascii At 9:23 AM -0400 8/11/03, Stopak, Noam wrote: >>I don't think my choices are the issue here - if my daughter is >>interested in learning so she can make her own informed decision, >>where is the wisdom of turning her away? If the Jewish community >>is so concerned about dwindling numbers and assimilation, why not >>present a more welcoming face? [...]
25620 36 15_Orthodoxy redux16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Mon, 11 Aug 2003 12:33:43 -0400559_us-ascii An additional observation as a follow-up to my immediate past submission. Pearl noted the chiloni Israeli observation that the Orthodox shul is the one not attended. Notwithstanding the presence of Conservative & Reform shuls in Israel, they are to an extent imports. I wonder, pace Kaplan (if not Reconstructionism) about the eventual development of an indigenous Israeli non-Orthodoxy. Not necessarily based on Conservative, Reform or Recon as we know them--but a natural Jewish Israeli evolution of a(nother) non-Orthodox form of observance. [...]
25657 137 32_RE: speaking of hebrew school...12_Stopak, Noam20_NStopak@orionsci.com31_Mon, 11 Aug 2003 12:48:27 -0400553_- -----Original Message----- From: David Ferri [mailto:david-ferri@wordmaster.com] Sent: Monday, August 11, 2003 12:03 PM To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: RE: speaking of hebrew school...<br><br><br><br>At 9:23 AM -0400 8/11/03, Stopak, Noam wrote:<br><br>I don't think my choices are the issue here - if my daughter is interested in learning so she can make her own informed decision, where is the wisdom of turning her away? If the Jewish community is so concerned about dwindling numbers and assimilation, why not present a more welcoming face? [...]
25795 35 37_Welcome to all who seek..............11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Mon, 11 Aug 2003 11:40:46 -0700348_iso-8859-1 <br><br>Noam<br><br>You wrote:<br><br>"I don't think my choices are the issue here - if my daughter is interested in learning so she can make her own informed decision, where is the wisdom of turning her away? If the Jewish community is so concerned about dwindling numbers and assimilation, why not present a more welcoming face?" [...]
25831 275 45_Beyn Ha"Metzarim (and) Criticism of Orthodoxy12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Mon, 11 Aug 2003 22:11:53 +0200479_us-ascii Haverot/im Understandably, nostalgia seems to break out more frequently in mid-summer. Camp memories tho' linked more firmly to minutiae and personalities of hevre and of staff than to chinuch programs of any given season grow in direct proportion to the passage of years. In a way this parallels Orthodoxy. Orthodoxy is a worship of the past. It raises the past to a non - contingent status. It holds that the past was always better; that values inevitably erode. [...]
26107 314 41_Rabbi stakes her claim in rthodox enclave0_15_DebALev@aol.com29_Mon, 11 Aug 2003 16:23:33 EDT679_US-ASCII Was this e-mail forwarded to you? Help Women's eNews grow. Get your own free subscription today at www.womensenews.org/join.cfm.<br><br>Also, go to our home page to view the latest Commentoon by Pulitzer Prize Winner Ann Telnaes: www.womensenews.org<br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br>________________________________________________________________<br><br>Here's today's update:<br><br><br><br>INTERNATIONAL Rabbi Stakes Her Claim In Orthodox Stronghold<br><br>By Anat Cohen - WeNews correspondent<br><br>JERUSALEM (WOMENSENEWS)--Rabbi Maya Leibovich is teaching a visitor about the long-ago time when the Torah, the holy book of Judaism, was written. [...]
26422 129 27_Re: Criticism or Orthodoxy.7_skolnik25_pskolnik@netvision.net.il31_Tue, 12 Aug 2003 00:41:08 +0200578_iso-8859-1 really Meir! For God's sake what are you talking about? ----- Original Message ----- From: Meir Hurwitz To: habonet@shamash.org Sent: Monday, August 11, 2003 7:14 AM Subject: Criticism or Orthodoxy.<br><br><br><br>Dear Pearl et al<br><br><br><br><br><br>I've been following the discussion of Orthodoxy. It's made me sad.<br><br>Since Orthodoxy AND Conservatism AND most of Reform are really types of idol worshipping as a good Jew I would rather not have anything to do with them. The question is NOT mainly one of prejudice even though it exists, but idolatry. [...]
26552 160 27_Re: Criticism or Orthodoxy.15_Judith R Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Mon, 11 Aug 2003 18:35:04 -0400351_us-ascii Dear Pearl,<br><br>Meir doesn't like that Jews worship God. He believes in the Temple of Love. What his note should remind us is that there is something valuable in common between the various Jewish denominations, no matter how exactly we relate to halakha, who precisely we define as a Jew, what exactly find as acceptable to eat, etc. [...]
26713 136 32_RE: speaking of hebrew school...11_David Ferri26_david-ferri@wordmaster.com31_Mon, 11 Aug 2003 17:47:45 -0500420_us-ascii At 12:48 PM -0400 8/11/03, Stopak, Noam wrote: >Your choice is *precisely* the issue. You made a choice a while >back and now, based on the consequences of that choice, you want to >craft how others respond to it. > >I don't understand. She is not me. What has she done to warrant >ostracism? Why exclude her from learning? Can you elucidate the >moral and ethical basis for this treatment of an innocent? [...]
26850 176 27_RE: Criticism of Orthodoxy.12_Meir Hurwitz21_meir_h@maccabi.org.il31_Tue, 12 Aug 2003 02:03:19 +0300372_us-ascii Thank you Judy for an honest attempt.<br><br>Only one correction for what you have written.<br><br>I don't "believe" in the Temple of Love. I don't "believe" in love.<br><br><br><br><br><br>I'm committed to trying to bring as much love as possible to this world. This is my kind of "tikun olam".<br><br><br><br><br><br>Meir<br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br>
27027 68 32_Re: speaking of hebrew school...13_richard smith19_rdsmith1957@msn.com31_Mon, 11 Aug 2003 19:42:55 -0400272_iso-8859-1 David Ferri stated: "Your choice is *precisely* the issue. You made a choice a while back and now, based on the consequences of that choice, you want to craft how others respond to it."<br><br>So I assume you agree with Mel Gibson as well, that the children are
27096 140 32_RE: speaking of hebrew school...12_Stopak, Noam20_NStopak@orionsci.com31_Mon, 11 Aug 2003 19:58:44 -0400441_- <br><br><br><br>-----Original Message----- From: David Ferri [mailto:david-ferri@wordmaster.com] Sent: Monday, August 11, 2003 6:48 PM To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: RE: speaking of hebrew school...<br><br><br><br>At 12:48 PM -0400 8/11/03, Stopak, Noam wrote:<br><br>Your choice is *precisely* the issue. You made a choice a while back and now, based on the consequences of that choice, you want to craft how others respond to it. [...]
27237 218 9_Idolatry.12_Meir Hurwitz21_meir_h@maccabi.org.il31_Tue, 12 Aug 2003 04:53:04 +0300495_us-ascii Thank you Steve for asking.<br><br><br><br><br><br>But I'm a little wary about writing about this to the list.<br><br><br><br><br><br>I'll just make it short and if you'd like more explanation then write personally OK ?<br><br><br><br><br><br>It is now understood that an "explanation" that explains everything really explains nothing .<br><br><br><br><br><br>This makes this kind of "explanation" a pseudo explanation, and this refers to any "being" outside of the natural order. [...]
27456 66 32_Re: speaking of hebrew school...11_David Ferri26_david-ferri@wordmaster.com31_Mon, 11 Aug 2003 20:05:13 -0500367_us-ascii At 7:42 PM -0400 8/11/03, richard smith wrote: >David Ferri stated: >"Your choice is *precisely* the issue. You made a choice a while >back and now, based on the consequences of that choice, you want to >craft how others respond to it." > >So I assume you agree with Mel Gibson as well, that the children are >responsible for the sins of their fathers? [...]
27523 91 32_RE: speaking of hebrew school...11_David Ferri26_david-ferri@wordmaster.com31_Mon, 11 Aug 2003 20:57:02 -0500473_us-ascii At 7:58 PM -0400 8/11/03, Stopak, Noam wrote:<br><br>[snip]<br><br>>>"Well that helps me cut down the list of hebrew schools I need to >>check out for my daughter...." >> >and I then asked DC chevre for experiences with local schools. I >never insisted that conservative or orthodox schools should let her >in, though I still don't understand their position (which is why I >keep asking questions) and believe it is foolish (based on the >responses to date). [...]
27615 136 32_Re: speaking of hebrew school...13_richard smith19_rdsmith1957@msn.com31_Mon, 11 Aug 2003 23:09:07 -0400329_iso-8859-1 David Ferri stated: "Your choice is *precisely* the issue. You made a choice a while back and now, based on the consequences of that choice, you want to craft how others respond to it." I said:<br><br>So I assume you agree with Mel Gibson as well, that the children are responsible for the sins of their fathers? [...]
27752 68 32_Re: speaking of hebrew school...0_13_Mmxmm@aol.com29_Mon, 11 Aug 2003 23:05:31 EDT526_US-ASCII <br><br>david-ferri@wordmaster.com writes:<br><br>> You did more than not understand their position. You accused them of being > the keepers of membership in the "master race", a term that European > relatives of every person on this list who could now fit into an ash tray would be > offended at<br><br><br><br>Achtung Baby...count me out of the 'every person' on this list. I frankly admire Noam for his heresies...no pun intended. asking difficlut questions & defending himself against the holier then thous. [...]
27821 61 32_Re: speaking of hebrew school...15_Judith R Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Mon, 11 Aug 2003 23:53:40 -0400299_us-ascii Dear Richard,<br><br>The reason that conversion is so difficult is that it is a reaction to the historic reality the Jews faced. As a vilified minority esp in Europe, the Jews had to be sure that it was incredibly hard to become Jewish in order to be allowed to convert anyone at all. [...]
27883 418 45_Re: Rabbi stakes her claim in rthodox enclave14_aviva grosbard18_deang@bezeqint.net31_Tue, 12 Aug 2003 15:10:14 +0200370_iso-8859-1 Thanks for sharing this with us Debbie-it is a refreshing change from the rather strange exchanges going on right now between the "chevre" about which I reserve comment at this time. Aviva ----- Original Message ----- From: DebALev@aol.com To: habonet@shamash.org Sent: Monday, August 11, 2003 10:23 PM Subject: Rabbi stakes her claim in rthodox enclave [...]
28302 173 32_RE: speaking of hebrew school...12_Stopak, Noam20_NStopak@orionsci.com31_Tue, 12 Aug 2003 08:16:38 -0400367_- Thanks again for another informative response. You have yet to provide answers to the questions I raised. In particular would be interested in hearing a reasoned response to the following questions:<br><br>"What has she done to warrant ostracism? Why exclude her from learning? Can you elucidate the moral and ethical basis for this treatment of an innocent?" [...]
28476 83 32_Re: speaking of hebrew school...15_Brian S. Cooper21_brian@cooperspace.net31_Tue, 12 Aug 2003 08:47:59 -0400322_iso-8859-1 Judaism is not just a religion alone. That, I think is the main reason for the difficulty. It is a civilization and a nation and a history. There is NO way to become a Greek or a Frenchman, is there? We are a mixed bag. Hence the argument within Judaism, for example, about the legitimacy of atheist Jews. [...]
28560 264 13_RE: Idolatry.11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Tue, 12 Aug 2003 09:53:35 -0700398_us-ascii Meir<br><br>How do I contact you privately? Maenwhile, I may as well flesh out some of my confusion.<br><br>At this point, I guess my question would be about the final point on the line: Is it true, therefore, that if a person chose to worship at all, he would have to worship nothing, or be considered an idolator? Doesn't that leave one with that part of human richness very empty? [...]
28825 32 8_Language11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Tue, 12 Aug 2003 10:07:53 -0700332_iso-8859-1 Habonet<br><br>My vote is to try to refrain from bandying about expressions such as "Christ-Killers" and "Master Race" in the context of talking about Jews. Call me old-fashioned, but I think we can do differently.<br><br>Is there a feeling, thought or consensus on this? Is it a vestige from the "free speech" era? [...]
28858 215 13_RE: Idolatry.12_Meir Hurwitz21_meir_h@maccabi.org.il31_Tue, 12 Aug 2003 20:36:01 +0300499_us-ascii Steve<br><br><br><br><br><br>I thought that you could easily find the e-mail address of a person here.<br><br><br><br><br><br>Sorry.<br><br><br><br><br><br>My e-mail is meir_h@maccabi.org.il<br><br><br><br><br><br>My thinking is NOT of the kind that you don't want.<br><br><br><br><br><br>> it true, therefore, that if a person chose to worship at all, he would have to worship nothing, or be considered an idolator? Doesn't that leave one with that part of human richness very empty? [...]
29074 76 32_Re: speaking of hebrew school...7_skolnik25_pskolnik@netvision.net.il31_Tue, 12 Aug 2003 22:59:21 +0200616_iso-8859-1 judy, why the cynicism? I thought your explanation reasoned, interesting, and very reasonable. pearl<br><br>--- Original Message ----- From: "Judith R Gelman" <gelman@erols.com> To: <habonet@shamash.org> Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2003 5:53 AM Subject: Re: speaking of hebrew school...<br><br><br><br>> Dear Richard, > > The reason that conversion is so difficult is that it is a reaction to > the historic reality the Jews faced. As a vilified minority esp in > Europe, the Jews had to be sure that it was incredibly hard to become > Jewish in order to be allowed to convert anyone at all. > > There [...]
29151 89 32_Re: speaking of hebrew school...13_richard smith19_rdsmith1957@msn.com31_Tue, 12 Aug 2003 16:58:18 -0400574_iso-8859-1 Judy<br><br>Your history lesson was very informative. It explains the historic reasons for the conversion process. It does not explain why this system still exists.<br><br>150 years ago, when the U.S. wanted new immigrants it was very easy to come to America and become a citizen. As the view of immigration changed then the process for becoming a citizen changed (largely due to racism in my view). Why do so many people on this list insist that this antiquated process is still "necessary." In fact it was this statement which got me going on this thread. [...]
29241 175 50_An Abridged History of Jewish Policy on Conversion14_Martin Goodman26_martinjgoodman@hotmail.com31_Tue, 12 Aug 2003 22:48:34 +0000610_- A number of years ago when the subject of Conversion was discussed on Habonet, I posted a synopsis of the history of Jewish conversion policy. Since I no longer have a copy of that posting, I have prepared this new draft for the current thread.<br><br>Traditionalists believe that Jews are the people who are descended from Ya’akov (and his two wives and their maid-servants). Genesis relates that about 70 individuals including Jacob, his children, and grandchildren went to live in Egypt. However, it does not mention if the larger family/tribe to which these people belonged also went to Egypt. More [...]
29417 52 63_A respponse regarding "Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion"11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org31_Tue, 12 Aug 2003 20:35:19 -0500618_us-ascii This email is in response to questions raised following public accusations >made by a student about a UC Berkeley summer sessions Arabic language class. >An immediate review has found that there appears to be no basis to the >student's charge that comments made in class by the graduate student >instructor were anti-Semitic or that he was teaching a particular position >on the authenticity of a text known as the "Protocols of the Learned Elders >of Zion." The review included an investigation by the dean and department >and accounts of the Aug. 6 class session as related by students attending >that [...]
29470 85 32_Re: speaking of hebrew school...15_Judith R Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Tue, 12 Aug 2003 22:49:14 -0400608_us-ascii I am honored that we agree on the reality. I guess I thought you would take issue with the fact that my explanation makes it clear that I don't think difficult conversion is a positive thing, which is not the traditional position.<br><br>Judy<br><br>skolnik wrote:<br><br>> judy, why the cynicism? I thought your explanation reasoned, interesting, > and very reasonable. > pearl > > --- Original Message ----- > From: "Judith R Gelman" <gelman@erols.com> > To: <habonet@shamash.org> > Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2003 5:53 AM > Subject: Re: speaking of hebrew school... > > > Dear Richard, > > > [...]
29556 123 34_Commentary on Beyn HaMetzarim - II14_Martin Goodman26_martinjgoodman@hotmail.com31_Wed, 13 Aug 2003 03:09:45 +0000632_- Shalom Amnon,<br><br>In your most recent posting in the Beyn Ha”Metzarim and Criticism of Orthodoxy thread, you characterize Jewish Orthodox belief as a worship of the past. Thereafter, you assert that since Orthodoxy is patriarchal, it is not worthy of respect.<br><br>Evidences of patriarchalism in Orthodox Judaism that you cite include: - Assignment to women of the mitzvot of niddah, separating of challah from dough, and lighting of Sabbath candles. - Unfitness of women to give testimony in court - The prohibition against cohanim marrying divorced women - The depiction of the women of the palace that is provided in [...]
29680 96 32_Re: speaking of hebrew school...7_skolnik25_pskolnik@netvision.net.il31_Wed, 13 Aug 2003 09:45:46 +0200473_iso-8859-1 it is also because it is normally the mother who raises the child, who instills the child with its identity, traditions, and rituals. A Jewish mother raises her children based on her experiences as a Jewish child, the stories and songs she heard as a child, the traditions of a Jewish household. pearl ----- Original Message ----- From: richard smith To: habonet@shamash.org Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2003 10:58 PM Subject: Re: speaking of hebrew school... [...]
29777 64 0_12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Wed, 13 Aug 2003 11:25:32 +0200326_us-ascii <br><br>Steve, you asked Meir: I am interested in any other line of reasoning. (Or faith) and continued:< It's too strange for me, because then we get into one of these discussions about how the worship of nothing is the worship of something. I hope it isn't one of those. If it is, then we mistook each other > [...]
29842 264 34_Commentary on Beyn HaMetzarim - II12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Wed, 13 Aug 2003 12:29:06 +0200522_us-ascii Oy, Marty, what am I going to do with you! You are too smart and have too much Judaic culture at your fingertips to disagree. For the moment I don't want to argue about facts but about attitudes. I admit that I have somatic dislike of Orthodoxy (as opposed to orthodox Jews) some of this is due to their politics - but not all of it. I am genetically averse to reactionary views and actions I got it from my parents who regarded their own parents as beloved but "At the End of an Age" as John Lukacs named a [...]
30107 177 32_RE: speaking of hebrew school...12_Stopak, Noam20_NStopak@orionsci.com31_Wed, 13 Aug 2003 08:51:03 -0400426_- Hi Pearl,<br><br>It would seem that in my case, where I am the custodial parent, this should not apply.<br><br>Thanks, by the way, to those who have actually sent useful information about hebrew schools off the list.<br><br>Noam<br><br>-----Original Message----- From: skolnik [mailto:pskolnik@netvision.net.il] Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 3:46 AM To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: Re: speaking of hebrew school... [...]
30285 230 32_Re: speaking of hebrew school...14_aviva grosbard18_deang@bezeqint.net31_Wed, 13 Aug 2003 17:28:23 +0200690_windows-1255 MessageI hated Hebrew school. The building was smelly and so were most of the teachers.Is that helpful? Kidding aside-I have followed this "discussion" with its twists and turns-and unless things have changed A LOT in Hebrew education- maybe it is wasted effort-you sound like an educated person -maybe teach her yourself?-the good things that our religion has to offer...like-tolerance,perseverance, respect ,Zionism,and some of those commandments are pretty good too.Send her to Habonim camp...Workshop....but then you might have to accept the consequences -like she might end up living in Israel:)D'ash to you all. Aviva ----- Original Message ----- From: Stopak, Noam [...]
30516 156 79_FW: The Call for UN & World Leaders to Prosecute Organizers of Suicide/Homicide11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Wed, 13 Aug 2003 08:03:45 -0700577_iso-8859-1 No explanation necessary<br><br>Steve -----Original Message----- From: marcia plager [mailto:mplager@socal.rr.com] Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2003 1:40 PM To: Elly Krapek; Israel and Marlene Zakai; Baruch Eichenbaum; Joyce Kishineff; George Briggs Subject: Fw: The Call for UN & World Leaders to Prosecute Organizers of Suicide/Homicide<br><br><br><br><br><br>----- Original Message ----- From: Harry W. Gluckman To: Harry W. * Gluckman Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2003 10:49 AM Subject: The Call for UN & World Leaders to Prosecute Organizers of Suicide/Homicide [...]
30673 38 20_Skinheads in Israel?11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Wed, 13 Aug 2003 08:23:20 -0700658_iso-8859-1 Habonet<br><br>Here is one of the most bizarre pieces I have come across. We get the newsletter from the World Jewish Congress (highly recommended).<br><br>Under the headline "Disturbing Report", is the article:<br><br>"According to an Israeli newspaper report, a group of Russian immigrants in Israel has set up a neo-Nazi website that lists Jews, Arabs [etc] as enemies, and shows members of the organisation, the White Israeli Union, raising their arms in a Nazi salute while wearing Israeli Army uniforms. According to a report, skinheads have been seen in several spots in the country, and in Russian bookstores [where] Holocaust-denial [...]
30712 208 68_=?Windows-1252?Q?Fw:_=E4=F2=E1=F8=E4:_Signs_on_a_shul_notice_board?=8_molieric25_molieric@netvision.net.il31_Wed, 13 Aug 2003 19:19:37 +0200442_Windows-1252 Hi,<br><br>I hope that it won't bother you all too much that I'm sending you these "signs on a shul notice board". They seem apropos in the case of Jew versus Jew. In my humble opinion, many of your arguments are due to ignorance and tolerance to only one's own viewpoint. Of course, the arguments are also mixed with knowledge of Jewish laws and rituals, that for the unknowledgeable, is intolerable to accept. Shalom Rav, [...]
30921 81 32_Re: speaking of hebrew school...15_Judith R Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Wed, 13 Aug 2003 12:32:43 -0400622_us-ascii Dear Friends,<br><br>Hebrew School has changed in many places. Almost all teachers, for example, take showers.<br><br>Actually, most schools try really hard to make it a positive experience and recognize the social needs of kids and the importance of this component in raising people who want to be Jewishly affiliated as adults. Many programs have retreats. ALmost all have family education and music. Cultural arts (dance, theater, cooking, visual arts and crafts) are part of a lot of programs. Many schools try to keep classes small and have teen aides in he classes. THere is also an emphasis on tikkun [...]
31003 107 32_Re: speaking of hebrew school...14_aviva grosbard18_deang@bezeqint.net31_Wed, 13 Aug 2003 19:37:50 +0200573_iso-8859-1 I was being slightly silly Judy-in an effort to lighten up this thread a little because frankly some of it was getting kind of ugly. I was not being facetious however about the "stinky " part. My parents were passionate also about our Jewish education and it wasn't easy to start a Hebrew school in Milwaukee which had a smallish and diverse Jewish community which was also spread out geographically. Our beloved Hebrew school smelled of urine and our teacher of garlic but I can say we did learn things and efforts were made that I can appreciate today in [...]
31111 60 32_RE: speaking of hebrew school...12_Stopak, Noam20_NStopak@orionsci.com31_Wed, 13 Aug 2003 12:55:54 -0400585_- Thanks Judy for the recommendations and explainations (and the invitation :-).<br><br>I survived a few years of Hebrew school myself and like Aviva I hated it which leaves me with mixed feelings about sending Emily. Still I want her to learn and doing so with peers may be more palitable and ultimately more educational than just home schooling. She has responded well to shabbat celebrations and often reminds me to say motzei at other times so I believe she will be receptive to the right situation and I hope that seeing that others perform these rituals and pursue the same [...]
31172 618 24_Re: Skinheads in Israel?13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il31_Wed, 13 Aug 2003 20:44:48 +0200585_iso-8859-1 Steve, this is from today's Ha'aretz:<br><br>Anti-Semitism, right here at home Not long ago the first Israeli neo-Nazi Internet site was launched. To put it more precisely, it is actually an Israeli site in the Russian language. Who says there are no original productions here? By Lily Galili<br><br>To the list of oddities by which the world is now defined, a few local paradoxes can be added. It appears that the number of Russian Jews who will emigrate to Germany this year will be larger than the number who come to Israel; the law under which Jews from the former [...]
31791 28 32_Re: speaking of hebrew school...15_Judith R Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Wed, 13 Aug 2003 14:39:35 -0400723_us-ascii Dear Aviva,<br><br>I guess kids applying to hebrew school aren't considered sincerely interested in learning.<br><br>Warmly, Judy<br><br><br><br>------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/<br><br>* * FREE JEWISH LEARNING * * Shamash invites you to join MyJewishLearning.com, a comprehensive, objective, authoritative and interactive learning resource in all areas of Judaism. Free membership via http://www.myjewishlearning.com/shamash ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------=
31820 45 32_Re: speaking of hebrew school...14_aviva grosbard18_deang@bezeqint.net31_Wed, 13 Aug 2003 21:48:27 +0200601_iso-8859-1 Judy-I have just read and re-read my e-mails and cant imagine what prompted you to make a comment like that. Please explain? Maybe we aren't communicating? Much appreciated and I really am not the kind of person to doubt anyone's sincerity about Hebrew school or anything else-since we dont know eachother-except in e-mails-I thought it was important to let you know that. Waiting to hear from you-Aviva ----- Original Message ----- From: "Judith R Gelman" <gelman@erols.com> To: <habonet@shamash.org> Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 8:39 PM Subject: Re: speaking of hebrew school... [...]
31866 58 32_Re: speaking of hebrew school...14_aviva grosbard18_deang@bezeqint.net31_Wed, 13 Aug 2003 22:36:29 +0200631_iso-8859-1 Judy? Still waiting to hear from you-I dont picture "hit and run" as your style. Aviva ----- Original Message ----- From: "aviva grosbard" <deang@bezeqint.net> To: < Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 9:48 PM Subject: Re: speaking of hebrew school...<br><br><br><br>> Judy-I have just read and re-read my e-mails and cant imagine what prompted > you to make a comment like that. Please explain? Maybe we aren't > communicating? Much appreciated and I really am not the kind of person to > doubt anyone's sincerity about Hebrew school or anything else-since we dont > know eachother-except in e-mails-I thought it was [...]
31925 43 32_Re: speaking of hebrew school...0_15_DebALev@aol.com29_Wed, 13 Aug 2003 15:42:43 EDT284_US-ASCII Aviva, it has only been a little while since you asked Judy. You might want to give her some time to respond. It's the middle of the afternoon here, which is a busy time, and afaik, most people have other things that they do.<br><br>Debbie who spends way too much time online
31969 53 32_Re: speaking of hebrew school...13_richard smith19_rdsmith1957@msn.com31_Wed, 13 Aug 2003 15:50:52 -040011_iso-8859-1 
32023 92 32_RE: speaking of hebrew school...12_Stopak, Noam20_NStopak@orionsci.com31_Wed, 13 Aug 2003 15:50:19 -0400626_- Aviva,<br><br>To put your mind at ease, I'm 100% certain Judy was referring to the messages from others on this list (which excoriated me for having the temerity to ask why my daughter is excluded from learning in conservative or orthodox schools), and not implying that this was your position.<br><br>Noam<br><br>> -----Original Message----- > From: aviva grosbard [mailto:deang@bezeqint.net] > Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 4:36 PM > To: habonet@shamash.org > Subject: Re: speaking of hebrew school... > > > Judy? Still waiting to hear from you-I dont picture "hit and > run" as your style. Aviva > ----- Original [...]
32116 37 32_Re: speaking of hebrew school...15_Judith R Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Wed, 13 Aug 2003 16:58:45 -0400325_us-ascii Dear Aviva,<br><br>It was supposed to be a joke. You wrote "correct me if I am wrong but I never saw Judaism as a religion that would turn away anyone sincerely interested in learning. " So I wrote (tongue in cheek!) " I guess kids applying to hebrew school aren't considered sincerely interested in learning." [...]
32154 54 32_Re: speaking of hebrew school...14_aviva grosbard18_deang@bezeqint.net31_Wed, 13 Aug 2003 23:52:22 +0200413_iso-8859-1 Almost midnight here in the holy land and I almost was going to go to sleep insulted. I was never famous for my sense of humor-didn't catch the joke.But appreciate you clueing me in there:).Warmth back at you-Aviva ----- Original Message ----- From: "Judith R Gelman" <gelman@erols.com> To: <habonet@shamash.org> Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 10:58 PM Subject: Re: speaking of hebrew school... [...]
32209 28 9_Shorashim0_13_SC523@aol.com29_Thu, 14 Aug 2003 02:42:12 EDT416_US-ASCII For all Habodancers wishing to come to a lovely urban weekend in New York - packed with "dor rishon" old Israeli dances - with wonderful workshops. The guest teacher this year is Danny Dassa - the master senior teacher from Los Angeles. Also, Danny Pollock, who choreographed one of the Habonim dances for the Israeli Dance Festival this year, teaches a great workshop on Sunday afternoon from 2 to 4. [...]
32238 111 17_Israeli skinheads16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Thu, 14 Aug 2003 10:22:09 -0400339_us-ascii In response to the Habonet postings of news articles reporting "Israeli" neo-Nazi skinheads, I sent an email note to an old friend (not a Habonim survivor) who has lived in Jerusalem for over 20 years now. (He teaches Jewish philosophy at the Hebrew University.) His response is interesting, so I post the germane part here. [...]
32350 45 8_Timeless0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Thu, 14 Aug 2003 14:33:48 EDT492_US-ASCII Timeless (Dedicated to Madeline "Maddy" Woolf Bergman, z'l)<br><br>Frozen in our gray matter Are the colorful memories of childhood Locked in a place where Time Has no issues No wrinkled skin No forgetting No pills Rather song and dances While the sun goes from East to West and back We played with no second-hands And talked And argued And shyed away And burst forth In unending friend-energy For a purpose greater than ourselves To a Time linked with the futures of our pasts [...]
32396 57 12_Re: Timeless7_skolnik25_pskolnik@netvision.net.il31_Thu, 14 Aug 2003 22:32:15 +0200596_iso-8859-1 evocative and beautiful, Sue. Thanks for sharing with us.. pearl ----- Original Message ----- From: <LiberHawke@aol.com> To: <habonet@shamash.org> Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 8:33 PM Subject: Timeless<br><br><br><br>> Timeless > (Dedicated to Madeline "Maddy" Woolf Bergman, z'l) > > Frozen in our gray matter > Are the colorful memories of childhood > Locked in a place where Time > Has no issues > No wrinkled skin > No forgetting > No pills > Rather song and dances > While the sun goes from East to West and back > We played with no second-hands > And talked > And argued [...]
32454 26 28_Helloooooooooooooooooooooooo12_Daniel Sabin22_mbabababa@netscape.net31_Thu, 14 Aug 2003 23:31:50 -0500724_ISO-8859-1 For a few months I've been gliding blissfully on a nostalgia trip, until 8/5 when Habonets stopped arriving. What's going on?<br><br>> ><br><br>------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/<br><br>* * FREE JEWISH LEARNING * * Shamash invites you to join MyJewishLearning.com, a comprehensive, objective, authoritative and interactive learning resource in all areas of Judaism. Free membership via http://www.myjewishlearning.com/shamash ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------=
32481 37 17_Israeli Skinheads6_meyers23_meyers@netvision.net.il31_Fri, 15 Aug 2003 12:10:30 +0200600_us-ascii I think the comments on neo-Nazi skinheads from the former Soviet Union are out of proportion to the phenomenon. The skinheads make a good story for the media, but are in no way represenative of Olim from the FSU, even those who are not Jewish from a Halachic viewpoint. Even without being converted--as most of them would have been were in not for the Orthodox establishment--the great majority have made a significant contribution to Israeli life, and, unfortuntially, to Israeli death (all too many have died in battle or been killed by terrorists). In the same context, I hope that [...]
32519 22 11_unsubscribe13_Deborah Meyer14_dmeyer@rrc.edu31_Fri, 15 Aug 2003 08:17:37 -0400628_iso-8859-1 dmeyer@rrc.edu<br><br>going on vacation!<br><br>------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/<br><br>* * FREE JEWISH LEARNING * * Shamash invites you to join MyJewishLearning.com, a comprehensive, objective, authoritative and interactive learning resource in all areas of Judaism. Free membership via http://www.myjewishlearning.com/shamash ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------=
32542 6975 13_FW: GREAT DAY11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Fri, 15 Aug 2003 08:03:09 -0700270_iso-8859-1 Habonet<br><br>Some of you are going to hate me for mucking up Habonet with this one. It gave me such a goose in these trying times, I neede to pass it along to someone else who would get as big a boost from it. (I hope the music comes through with it). [...]
39518 47 13_Re: GREAT DAY13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il31_Fri, 15 Aug 2003 18:15:05 +020096_iso-8859-1 Well, I appreciate the music, but the hugging bears is a little much don't you think?
39566 7008 20_FW: GREAT DAY (oops)11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Fri, 15 Aug 2003 08:23:43 -0700459_iso-8859-1 I guess I'm not done with the apologies. I hadn't realised that the musical effect that enchanted me was the one that happened as I forwarded it to others. Give it a try! Forward it to someone that will either love you or hate you for it.<br><br>Steve -----Original Message----- From: owner-habonet@shamash.org [mailto:owner-habonet@shamash.org]On Behalf Of Steve Klein Sent: Friday, August 15, 2003 8:03 AM To: Habonet Subject: FW: GREAT DAY [...]
46575 84 13_RE: GREAT DAY11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Fri, 15 Aug 2003 08:25:36 -0700483_iso-8859-1 Jonathon<br><br>I'm a little soft at the moment. We just had a briss last night. Babies, teddy bears, whatever. None of it seems too mushy at the moment.<br><br>Steve -----Original Message----- From: owner-habonet@shamash.org [mailto:owner-habonet@shamash.org]On Behalf Of Jonathan Baum Sent: Friday, August 15, 2003 9:15 AM To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: Re: GREAT DAY<br><br><br><br>Well, I appreciate the music, but the hugging bears is a little much don't you think?
46660 48 13_Re: GREAT DAY13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il31_Fri, 15 Aug 2003 18:37:20 +020032_iso-8859-1 Mazal tov!<br><br>Jon
46709 33 21_Teddy bears and music15_Judith R Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Fri, 15 Aug 2003 12:12:19 -0400415_us-ascii Dear Steve,<br><br>Mazel tov on the bris. Given that you are a new grandfather (I assume), I will forgive you for sending an enormous file that crashed my computer twice until I got it erased without opening it.<br><br>Please don't forward stuff this big except to those of us who ask. Those who get Habonet in digest may not be able to get the whole day's worth of material, not a tragedy but still! [...]
46743 7011 13_Re: GREAT DAY12_Karen Fisher23_pkfisher19@peoplepc.com31_Fri, 15 Aug 2003 16:54:27 -0400481_iso-8859-1 There are those days that we need a smile ..... Thanks<br><br>Karen Fisher ----- Original Message ----- From: Steve Klein To: Habonet Sent: Friday, August 15, 2003 11:03 AM Subject: FW: GREAT DAY<br><br><br><br>Habonet<br><br>Some of you are going to hate me for mucking up Habonet with this one. It gave me such a goose in these trying times, I neede to pass it along to someone else who would get as big a boost from it. (I hope the music comes through with it). [...]
53755 117 39_Immigrants from the former Soviet Union14_Martin Goodman26_martinjgoodman@hotmail.com31_Fri, 15 Aug 2003 21:54:35 +0000605_- Shalom Elihu,<br><br>While I lived in Israel (1995-2001), I heard many stories about the immigrants from the former Soviet Union: that many of their women were prostitutes; that many of them had no Jewish parent and only one Jewish grandparent; that many of them had come to Israel only for the Sal Klitah (the basket of economic aid provided by the Sochnut to new immigrants); and that they were indifferent or even hostile to Israeli and Jewish culture. In the course of my work in Israel's engineering and construction industries, I came into contact with many Russian immigrants. My experience [...]
53873 62 10_"Whosajew"11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Fri, 15 Aug 2003 15:29:09 -0700564_iso-8859-1 <br><br><br><br>Habonet- I recently wrote up some comments pertaining to the ongoing discussion on Habonet. Maybe there's something here of interest or use to others. I figured it couldn't hurt to send it along.<br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br>My daughter Darya came to me a while back and said, " Dad, I don't believe in God". (I think she might have been stuck at that stage of development where kids who have been to shul think God is some old Jewish guy with a white beard, looking down from a big chair in the sky). (Too much Charlton Heston). [...]
53936 100 31_More Info On Russian Immigrants14_Martin Goodman26_martinjgoodman@hotmail.com31_Sat, 16 Aug 2003 00:21:26 +0000672_- The following survey data are excerpted from today's Ma'ariv newspaper [http://images.maariv.co.il/channels/1/ART/525/101.html]<br><br>- About 1,000,000 persons have immigrated to Israel from the former Soviet Union since 1989.<br><br>- 28 percent of the immigrants are not Jewish according to [Orthodox] halachah.<br><br>- 51% of the immigrants have low to median skills in understanding spoken Hebrew, 67% of the immigrants have difficulty speaking in Hebrew, and 72% have difficulty writing in Hebrew. [After 6 years in Hebrew, my more honest colleagues continue to tell me that the Hebrew in my technical reports is Al HaPanim and that my accent is appalling.] [...]
54037 24 15_Re: unsubscribe11_Carol Shore21_c_shore@ix.netcom.com31_Fri, 15 Aug 2003 21:55:22 -0400639_iso-8859-1 c_shore@ix.netcom.com<br><br>vacation time!<br><br><br><br>------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/<br><br>* * FREE JEWISH LEARNING * * Shamash invites you to join MyJewishLearning.com, a comprehensive, objective, authoritative and interactive learning resource in all areas of Judaism. Free membership via http://www.myjewishlearning.com/shamash ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------=
54062 113 14_Re: "Whosajew"13_Dan Bernstein17_dsb1@nycap.rr.com31_Fri, 15 Aug 2003 23:39:07 -0400559_us-ascii Steve, This sounds similar to my daughter Dara (is the similar name an accident) who last year 5 weeks before her bat mitzvah announced that she was an atheist. Being 13 and being who she is, Dara did this with style. I send my kids to a Schecter day school. In afternoon prayer she was asked to lead by the Judaics principle. She promptly announced that for her leading prayer would be hypocritical. The principle took the bait and asked why. Dara's answer was simple, because she was an atheist it would be hypocritical of her to pray or lead [...]
54176 504 34_Picture from Microsoft Picture It!13_moshe sheskin24_moshes7@netvision.net.il55_Sat, 16 Aug 2003 01:56:12 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time)341_iso-8859-1 Hi Harvey,<br><br>You're probably going to get a hundred pictures considering all the cameras that were present at the wedding. It was a beautiful wedding, full of the spirit that becomes a young couple. I didn't realize how orthodox Eli had become. I have the feeling that it will penetrate the inner sanctum of his father. [...]
54681 730 13_Re: GREAT DAY8_molieric25_molieric@netvision.net.il31_Sat, 16 Aug 2003 15:20:06 +0200464_iso-8859-1 Dear Steve,<br><br>Your "Great Day" message is a welcome breath of fresh air.<br><br>Thank You, Mollie ----- Original Message ----- From: Karen Fisher To: habonet@shamash.org Sent: Friday, August 15, 2003 10:54 PM Subject: Re: GREAT DAY<br><br><br><br>There are those days that we need a smile ..... Thanks<br><br>Karen Fisher ----- Original Message ----- From: Steve Klein To: Habonet Sent: Friday, August 15, 2003 11:03 AM Subject: FW: GREAT DAY [...]
55412 38 14_Re: "Whosajew"0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com29_Sat, 16 Aug 2003 08:59:58 EDT95_US-ASCII Imagine God was one of us. Just another person on the bus Trying to make his way home.
55451 493 46_In refugee camp, a P2P outpost | CNET News.com16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Sat, 16 Aug 2003 11:59:55 -0400438_us-ascii The appended webpage is an article from this week's tech business review<br><br>published online by CNET, a daily on-line technology information service. This article recounts Palestinian entrepreneurship in the business of software piracy, in Jenin. What makes this particularly problematic is that all civil law enforcement in the West Bank and Gaza is under the jurisdiction of the Palestinian Authority. It would appear [...]
55945 49 13_Re: GREAT DAY0_13_SC523@aol.com29_Sat, 16 Aug 2003 20:58:15 EDT344_US-ASCII Habonetters,<br><br>Please do not respond to Steve Klein's email by reattaching his very large file! Those of us who are affected in New YOrk and other cities that are imposing "rotating blackouts" to save energy after the big blackout on Thursday have our computers turned into tizzies by such files.<br><br>thanks for avoiding, Aliya
55995 86 20_This is Truly Funny!0_13_SC523@aol.com29_Sat, 16 Aug 2003 20:58:34 EDT278_ISO-8859-1 If you haven't seen this before, I just had to send it to friends (do me a favor please - just enjoy - don't respond back to me - I'm trying to get out of NY hopefully for a conference after the blackout gridlock and can't handle any extra emails at this time): [...]
56082 539 43_Re: Shorashim - Apologies for info left out0_13_SC523@aol.com29_Sat, 16 Aug 2003 20:59:11 EDT378_ISO-8859-1 For any Habonim dancers of any age - I apologize for leaving out all the info on Shorashim in my email of last week. I have also subsequently found out that there will be some mini-reunions of people who danced in Habonim performances in Israeli Dance Festivals of long ago on Sunday night for dinner after the dance workshops with Danny Pollock an Danny Dassa. [...]
56622 43 32_Re: speaking of hebrew school...0_13_SC523@aol.com29_Sat, 16 Aug 2003 20:59:35 EDT180_US-ASCII This wrap-up of Judy's regarding patrilineal descent is the most extensive summary of examples, permutations and combinations I have ever seen - thanks, Judy!<br><br>Aliya
56666 119 39_Immigrants from the former Soviet Union14_Martin Goodman26_martinjgoodman@hotmail.com31_Sun, 17 Aug 2003 05:27:34 +0000586_- I'm not sure if this posting was sent, so I'm resubmitting it.<br><br>Shalom Elihu,<br><br>While I lived in Israel (1995-2001), I heard many stories about the immigrants from the former Soviet Union: that many of their women were prostitutes; that many of them had no Jewish parent and only one Jewish grandparent; that many of them had come to Israel only for the Sal Klitah (the basket of economic aid provided by the Sochnut to new immigrants); and that they were indifferent or even hostile to Israeli and Jewish culture. In the course of my work in Israel's engineering and [...]
56786 100 31_More Info On Russian Immigrants14_Martin Goodman26_martinjgoodman@hotmail.com31_Sun, 17 Aug 2003 05:28:03 +0000672_- The following survey data are excerpted from today's Ma'ariv newspaper [http://images.maariv.co.il/channels/1/ART/525/101.html]<br><br>- About 1,000,000 persons have immigrated to Israel from the former Soviet Union since 1989.<br><br>- 28 percent of the immigrants are not Jewish according to [Orthodox] halachah.<br><br>- 51% of the immigrants have low to median skills in understanding spoken Hebrew, 67% of the immigrants have difficulty speaking in Hebrew, and 72% have difficulty writing in Hebrew. [After 6 years in Hebrew, my more honest colleagues continue to tell me that the Hebrew in my technical reports is Al HaPanim and that my accent is appalling.] [...]
56887 80 46_Environmental Dimensions To the Geder Hafradah12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Sun, 17 Aug 2003 08:48:36 +0200621_us-ascii Marty I'd like to think that someone's profession is how one approaches problems in both constructions of "profession"; say how one approaches paving a road taking gradients, weather, drainage, shoulders and costs into account; a parallel meaning of profession is what one professes. Where should the road go and who will be permitted to travel on it. You get my drift. So when you write > One dimension that is not usually discussed in the fence/wall debate is the potential impact on wildlife. the fence/wall would be impermeable and could have devastating impacts on the movements of wildlife. I shudder [...]
56968 57 45_Even the World Zionist Organization likes him13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il31_Sun, 17 Aug 2003 22:16:19 +0200135_windows-1255 My son has hit the big time. Lock up your daughters.<br><br>Jon<br><br>http://www.wzo.org.il/en/resources/view.asp?id=1378
57026 80 14_Re: "Whosajew"8_molieric25_molieric@netvision.net.il31_Sun, 17 Aug 2003 22:24:19 +0200417_iso-8859-1 <br><br>And being terribly frustrated being stuck in the traffic jam, Where he is comfronted with human nature - The Bad, The Good and the Undecided.<br><br>Mollie ----- Original Message ----- From: Smfgrappa@aol.com To: habonet@shamash.org Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2003 2:59 PM Subject: Re: "Whosajew"<br><br><br><br>Imagine God was one of us. Just another person on the bus Trying to make his way home.
57107 44 49_Re: Even the World Zionist Organization likes him0_14_KBob24@aol.com29_Sun, 17 Aug 2003 18:06:02 EDT149_US-ASCII Jon:<br><br>Mazel tov on your Ariel's new found fame. I see he has also discovered the long lost secret of the allure of Habonim.<br><br>Ken
57152 391 11_Days of Awe12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Mon, 18 Aug 2003 23:21:57 +0200603_us-ascii <br><br>Haverim/ot On the second day of Rosh Ha-Shanah the story of the akedah will be retold in synagogues and yet this core mysterium of Judaic civilization's earliest strata remains enigmatic and disturbing. How does one exorcise such a myth? In his amazing book Mr. Mani, A.B. Yehoshua does it by telling unlikely stories about a five generational, grossly unbelieveable family until the reader arrives at the mad Avraham Mani, progenitor of the line. He wrote an explanation of his work which I send now with a suggestion that some might want to read Mr. Mani as a kind of hachsharah [...]
57544 28 49_Re: Even the World Zionist Organization likes him13_Dan Bernstein17_dsb1@nycap.rr.com31_Mon, 18 Aug 2003 16:30:41 -0400518_us-ascii Jon, We want the autographed copy. At 10:16 PM 8/17/2003 +0200, you wrote: >My son has hit the big time. Lock up your daughters. > >Jon > ><http://www.wzo.org.il/en/resources/view.asp?id=1378>http://www.wzo.org.il/en/resources/view.asp?id=1378<br><br>------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...]
57573 133 56_Geder Hafrada and the Government of the People Inside It14_Martin Goodman26_martinjgoodman@hotmail.com31_Mon, 18 Aug 2003 22:17:39 +0000608_- 18 August 2003<br><br>Shalom Amnon:<br><br>You wrote regarding my posting entitled “Environment Dimensions To the Geder Hafradah”,<br><br>“” … I hope that you equally shudder at the devastating impacts on the movement of human beings… So how do we both calculate the human cost of the wall… ? “”<br><br>A number of years ago leaders in LABOR (and the Left in general) supported construction of a wall in the vicinity of the Green Line because they believed/hoped it would save Israeli lives without interfering in the lives of Palestinians. LIKUD leaders on the other hand opposed a wall because they [...]
57707 1328 12_Re: Approved0_13_SC523@aol.com32_Tue, 19 Aug 2003 13:22:27 --040011_iso-8859-1 
59036 1322 14_Re: Thank you!0_13_SC523@aol.com32_Tue, 19 Aug 2003 13:39:54 --040011_iso-8859-1 
60359 80 16_Times like these11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Tue, 19 Aug 2003 19:23:25 -0700513_iso-8859-1 Habonet<br><br>A CUP OF COFFEE >You will never look at a cup of coffee the same way again. A young woman went to her mother and told her about her life and how things were so hard for her. She did not know how she was going to make it and wanted to give up. She was tired of fighting and struggling. > >It seemed as one problem was solved a new one arose. Her mother took her to the kitchen. She filled three pots with water: >in the first, she placed carrots, >in the second she placed eggs >and [...]
60440 75 14_a trip to hell7_skolnik25_pskolnik@netvision.net.il31_Wed, 20 Aug 2003 12:54:48 +0200531_windows-1255 I knew something was wrong when I stopped at a red light on the Ramot Road, and all of a sudden 4 police cars, blue lights flashing, went through the red light. I immediately called my husband and told him to turn on the tv, that I think there was a terrorist attack. Only an hour before I had gone through a checkpoint and berated the soldiers for joking with each other and not watching who was going through their checkpoint. I told them that it would be easy for a terrorist to go past them. Now I hoped that [...]
60516 89 26_Even If My Land is Burning12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Wed, 20 Aug 2003 16:01:40 +0200323_us-ascii Haverim/ot I believe that it was in the mid-seventies that Ehud Manor wrote Ein li eretz acheret Gam im admati boeret . . . .<br><br>"I have no other place to go Even as my land is burning One Hebrew word burrows Into my veins, into my soul With an aching body A hungry heart, This is my home." -- Ehud Manor [...]
60606 156 18_Re: a trip to hell14_Jamie Beaumont24_jamie_beaumont@yahoo.com37_Wed, 20 Aug 2003 06:54:11 -0700 (PDT)312_us-ascii Thank you for taking the time to reach out to us in the aftermath of this terrifying, sad and horrible act. As you say, from around the world our hearts, our thoughts, prayers and tears are with you. Loss of life of Jews, nonJews, it doesn't matter to me who they were. What a terrible loss! Helen [...]
60763 48 32_Re: speaking of hebrew school...11_Lon Ephraim14_cbma@erols.com31_Thu, 21 Aug 2003 01:40:16 -0400578_us-ascii <br><br><br><br>I may get into trouble for this. I hated Hebrew school (Baltimore Hebrew College), but I loved to go and I loved to hate it. We had true scholars, rabbis, authors, one an eminent archaeologist, who taught us and all I can remember is all of us making fun of their clothes and their accents (sometimes not behind their backs). These brilliant men had to spend their afternoons with 13 & up year olds. Occasionally, bits and pieces of information found their way into our teenaged brains and in spite of my bad behavior, for me the memories of those [...]
60812 167 18_Re: a trip to hell7_skolnik25_pskolnik@netvision.net.il31_Thu, 21 Aug 2003 09:10:58 +0200557_iso-8859-1 thank you for responding. It is comforting to us here to know that others are with us and feel our pain. b'vracha, pearl<br><br><br><br><br><br>> Thank you for taking the time to reach out to us in > the aftermath of this terrifying, sad and horrible > act. As you say, from around the world our hearts, > our thoughts, prayers and tears are with you. Loss of > life of Jews, nonJews, it doesn't matter to me who > they were. What a terrible loss! Helen > > --- skolnik <pskolnik@netvision.net.il> wrote: > > I knew something was wrong when [...]
60980 27 8_Apology?0_13_SC523@aol.com31_Thu, 21 Aug 2003 02:38:54 -0400458_iso-8859-1 Dear Chevreh,<br><br>I am away at the CAJE Conference in Columbus, Ohio and have heard from several of you that a post I placed on Habonet had the dreaded W32.Sobig.F@mm virus.<br><br>I think that is probably not the case because even these new terrible viruses have generally not been affecting or infecting MACs, but I will check when I return. It is possible that this came out of somebody else's address book and bounced as if from mine. [...]
61008 35 18_Re: a trip to hell0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Thu, 21 Aug 2003 19:01:06 EDT522_US-ASCII Pearl, Amnon, and all our chevre in Israel, This latest attack found me crying at the news and feeling so angry and helpless. I know I have no right to compare my feelings with yours, and I am not doing that- but if words have any power, please know that this is being spoken of all over my little world. My children offer up their theories of what to do in a voice of anger. All day at my workplace, you could hear "yemach sh'mam", and "kill them back" and just plain anger and more theories of where to go [...]
61044 55 30_quick camp geography questions0_14_KBob24@aol.com29_Thu, 21 Aug 2003 20:15:58 EDT235_US-ASCII Folks:<br><br>On behalf of the editor of the upcoming issue of Chadashot, two questions:<br><br>1) Was Ein Harod in Ellenville, NY?<br><br>2) Where was Revivim located (No, not the Kibbutz, the camp)?<br><br>Thanks,<br><br>Ken
61100 344 27_Israel Cloudbusting Project11_Phil Safier17_psafier@elixa.com31_Thu, 21 Aug 2003 22:41:02 -0600756_us-ascii From: OBRL-News Bulletin <www.orgonelab.org> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OBRL-News-Bulletin/<br><br>Subject:- Uri Geller writes about Israel Cloudbusting Project<br><br>Please copy and distribute to other interested individuals and groups<br><br>+++++<br><br>http://www.uri-geller.com/jewish/week.htm<br><br>Opening your mind can help end droughts<br><br>SOUTHERN California is in the grip of drought. In Los Angeles last week, friends pleaded with me to work a paranormal miracle on their dry atmosphere, where barely 25 per cent of the usual rain has fallen in the past 12 months. The only solution I could offer was flippant: stage a Grand Slam tennis tournament. ''In London,'' I said, ''we guarantee a wet summer by holding Wimbledon. [...]
61445 59 39_To chevre in Israel:Fwd: a trip to hell0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Fri, 22 Aug 2003 01:47:00 EDT17_US-ASCII <br><br>
61505 84 18_RE: a trip to hell12_Stopak, Noam20_NStopak@orionsci.com31_Fri, 22 Aug 2003 10:14:02 -0400579_- Indeed, even on vacation at the beach in North Carolina we hear people talking.<br><br>Here's what I wrote to the NY Times yesterday under the subject "End of the cease fire?":<br><br>The headline on James Bennett's column on August 21 reads "Islamic Militant Groups Say Truce Dead After Israeli Strike". I'd say that to the extent it was ever alive, it was dead along with the 20 people, including 6 children and 5 Americans who planned no terrorist attacks and were riding a bus home from worship before they were blown to pieces by a Hamas bomber. The State department [...]
61590 52 31_Re: Israel Cloudbusting Project13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il31_Fri, 22 Aug 2003 17:24:05 +0200163_iso-8859-1 Thanks Phil, I haven't laughed so hard in weeks! I would have thought that prunes were effective against "congested negative energy".<br><br>Jon<br><br>
61643 92 12_"Relentless"0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Fri, 22 Aug 2003 10:50:47 EDT571_US-ASCII Last night I went to a free screening of the new documentary, "Relentless." It was a small thing I could do to try and understand what is going on. Being "distributed" or pushed by the "AISH" organizations...I had no idea what I would be seeing. But I left last night with a strengthened sense of confusion and hopelessness- despite "HaTikva" and the consistent character of our people to seek peace and coexistence. The basis for the film was a description of the Oslo Accords, and the tracing of how the basic points have been played out on both sides of [...]
61736 22 9_Apologies0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Fri, 22 Aug 2003 12:30:55 EDT711_US-ASCII Sorry this posted twice; my fault- I was sending it to some chevre who are not on the Habonet list.....a "senior moment"--sue<br><br>------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/<br><br>* * FREE JEWISH LEARNING * * Shamash invites you to join MyJewishLearning.com, a comprehensive, objective, authoritative and interactive learning resource in all areas of Judaism. Free membership via http://www.myjewishlearning.com/shamash ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------=
61759 39 23_Remove from list please0_14_SBKatz@aol.com29_Fri, 22 Aug 2003 12:36:04 EDT138_US-ASCII If this is the wrong way to do it please let me know how to. I get too much mail that I dpn't have time to read. Thanks. Eli Katz
61799 60 26_Weather, Science, Religion14_Martin Goodman26_martinjgoodman@hotmail.com31_Fri, 22 Aug 2003 18:52:48 +0000660_- Shalom Phil:<br><br>I took a quick gander at the orgonelab.org website. It is filled with assertions about how easily climate can be controlled. However, the website is virtually devoid, perhaps deliberately, of the standard technical vocabulary that enables scientists to evaluate a hypothesis.<br><br>Take for example, the assertion that cloud busting machines in Crete and northern Israel were responsible for above average rain in Israel, Lebanon, and Turkey in 1991. No mention is made about the historic frequency and distribution of extreme rainfall in these areas, so there is no way to validate that the cloud busting machines were responsible [...]
61860 35 18_Re: a trip to hell0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Fri, 22 Aug 2003 15:38:09 EDT631_US-ASCII <br><br>In a message dated 8/22/03 11:35:30 AM, NStopak@orionsci.com writes:<br><br><< why is the Times unable to bring itself to use the words which truly describe these groups? >><br><br>Thanks Noam- but the bigger question is why is Israel consistently BLAMED for trying to eradicate these terrorist groups, when the rest of the world (INCLUDING THE PA_ which was supposed to rid "Palestine" of terrorists back in the early '90's...) supposedly condemns terrorists and spouts the hypocritical words to that extent. The Times (NY & LA) is but a tiny point of it all- That is what "Relentless" shows.....but do what [...]
61896 85 18_Re: a trip to hell0_14_KBob24@aol.com29_Fri, 22 Aug 2003 15:43:31 EDT285_US-ASCII I have heard Ben Franklin credited with saying, "I would have written you a shorter letter, but I ran out of time." Noam, I don't know how long you took to write your letter to the editor, but with a few words you have made a strong, clear statement.<br><br>Kol Hakavod, [...]
61982 528 21_Bret Stephens article3_leo18_leodie@isdn.net.il31_Sat, 23 Aug 2003 13:11:40 +0200
62511 37 18_Re: a trip to hell0_18_Yentateleb@aol.com29_Sat, 23 Aug 2003 07:59:05 EDT76_US-ASCII And Kofi Anan(?) asks Israel to show restraint????????????? Janet W
62549 258 25_RE: Bret Stephens article11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Sun, 24 Aug 2003 12:37:04 -0700474_us-ascii Dear Leo<br><br>I read the article. Either I don't have the background to see what is wrong with it, or I don't have the necessary tools or wherewithall to analyse it the way you might have.<br><br>Would you care to give a personal analysis?<br><br>Steve -----Original Message----- From: owner-habonet@shamash.org [mailto:owner-habonet@shamash.org]On Behalf Of leo Sent: Saturday, August 23, 2003 4:12 AM To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: Bret Stephens article [...]
62808 127 69_FW: MEF Alert: Pipes on "Fox & Friends," Mon., Aug. 25, 6:15 a.m. EDT11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Sun, 24 Aug 2003 11:59:33 -0700491_iso-8859-1 Does everyne get these alerts?<br><br>Steve -----Original Message----- From: MEF Alerts [mailto:mefalert@meforum.org] Sent: Sunday, August 24, 2003 10:36 AM To: kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com Subject: MEF Alert: Pipes on "Fox & Friends," Mon., Aug. 25, 6:15 a.m. EDT<br><br><br><br>Middle East Forum Alert<br><br><br><br><br><br>Daniel Pipes will appear on “Fox & Friends,” on Mon., Aug. 25, 6:15 a.m. EDT to discuss recent problems in Iraq and the Palestinian-Israeli conflict. [...]
62936 228 52_Eliot Pearlson answers: orthodox sinat chinam or no?7_skolnik25_pskolnik@netvision.net.il31_Mon, 25 Aug 2003 00:34:58 +0200611_ISO-8859-1 I sent two letters from Aliya Cotel to my brother, a conservative rabbi in Miami Beach, asking him to comment, since I felt that he would be particularly suited to do so. His answers were very interesting. Following is his reply, which he said I could forward. Although I correctly guessed at the reasons, Eliot confirms them, regarding the loopholes that Rabbi Feinstein devised to free agunot and others so they could remarry. Rabbi Feinstein and my grandfather studied together at the same European yeshivot (the original Mir and the Slobodka, I believe). My grandfather was of the School of [...]
63165 37 34_Re: quick camp geography questions0_13_JujuG@aol.com29_Sun, 24 Aug 2003 18:04:15 EDT94_US-ASCII Having spent my MB summer at Ein Harod - yes, it was in Ellenville, N.Y. -Judy Gordon
63203 32 13_Hole in Sheet11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Mon, 25 Aug 2003 09:29:38 -0700579_iso-8859-1 Pearl<br><br>Once again, thank you for the articles you are sending, and your comments. You are a major contributor to healthy exchange of ideas.<br><br>Having said that, what was the answer to the "Sheet" question?<br><br>Is it a myth? Truth? Somewhere "in between"? (Sorry).<br><br>Yours<br><br>Steve<br><br>------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...]
63236 86 52_Fw: Rosh Hashana (Jewish New Year 5764) Jacob's Site7_skolnik25_pskolnik@netvision.net.il31_Mon, 25 Aug 2003 21:28:38 +0200389_iso-8859-1 for parents and teachers, hope this is of interest! pearl<br><br>Rosh Hashana, the Jewish New Year 5764, begins Friday evening, September 26, 2003 and continues until Sunday evening, September 28, 2003.<br><br>The J Site - Jewish Education and Entertainment <a href="http://www.j.co.il"> http://www.j.co.il </a> has several entertaining features to celebrate the new year: [...]
63323 60 17_RE: Hole in Sheet12_Stopak, Noam20_NStopak@orionsci.com31_Mon, 25 Aug 2003 14:33:21 -0400319_- While I'm certainly happy to hear all sides of the ortho/non discussion, as your followup confirms, I didn't feel the message Pearl sent along was at all responsive to the questions asked or the more general issues raised by various people here. Seemed more like a set of counter accussations. Did I misread it? [...]
63384 28 17_What are the odd?11_Batel Libes25_batel_libes@earthlink.net31_Mon, 25 Aug 2003 21:37:02 -0700363_iso-8859-1 My daughter, who goes to Gilboa, started high school today, along with some 950 other Freshman with only 15 of them from her old school. So what are the odds she would meet the only other Habonim machane person (a Tavor chanicha) there ? What ever those odds were, she/they beat them. All of a sudden high school just isn't as scary as it seemed. [...]
63413 74 21_Fw: Fw: Hole in Sheet7_skolnik25_pskolnik@netvision.net.il31_Tue, 26 Aug 2003 09:22:40 +0200575_iso-8859-1 <br><br>----- Original Message ----- From: EPearlson@aol.com To: pskolnik@netvision.net.il Sent: Monday, August 25, 2003 9:09 PM Subject: Re: Fw: Hole in Sheet<br><br><br><br>Dear Pearl,<br><br>If one would reference The Shulchan Aruch (Rabbi Yosef Karo), The Mapah (Rabbi Moshe Isserles) one would see the myriad, the Plethora of laws of sexual intimacy between married couples: frequency of intimacy, acceptable 'positons', post menopause problems, birth control, BUT NOWHERE WILL ANYONE EVER FIND A JEWISH LAW OR CUSTOM THAT SAYS SEX IS Done THRU A SHEET. [...]
63488 51 21_Re: Fw: Hole in Sheet13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il31_Tue, 26 Aug 2003 10:13:21 +0200106_iso-8859-1 Never mind this "hole in a sheet" stuff. What does Jewish law state about handcuffs?<br><br>Jon
63540 48 25_Re: Fw: Fw: Hole in Sheet0_13_SC523@aol.com29_Tue, 26 Aug 2003 03:24:04 EDT391_US-ASCII Rabbi Pearlson (Pearl's brother, I presume)'s response is very lovely to read. However, when I lived with a friend for a short time in the 1960s in the neighborhood right next to Mea Shaarim, and,with a certain regularity, we observed hung out on the lines to dry many many sheets with a perfectly cut circle right in the middle - I sure wonder now what those were for???????? [...]
63589 54 25_Re: Fw: Fw: Hole in Sheet13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Tue, 26 Aug 2003 05:58:03 -0400
63644 77 67_And Kofi Anan(?) asks Israel to show restraint?? Was a trip to hell12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Tue, 26 Aug 2003 18:02:55 +0200514_iso-8859-1 In Habonet 2676 Janet W. (who are you, Janet?) wrote: > And Kofi Anan(?) asks Israel to show restraint?? I'm sending two articles about restraint that appeared in Ha'aretz today. They present two divergent takes on restraint and on culpability. The first was written by Nadav Shragai a well known and highly regarded commentator on Orthodoxy and on political matters. The second is unsigned. While this may understandably raise an eyebrow it shouldn't necessarily close our eyes to what he writes. [...]
63722 22 21_Re: What are the odd?11_Greg Taylor25_gttaylor@worldnet.att.net31_Tue, 26 Aug 2003 12:35:32 -0700618_iso-8859-1 what high school? Cindy Taylor<br><br>------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/<br><br>* * FREE JEWISH LEARNING * * Shamash invites you to join MyJewishLearning.com, a comprehensive, objective, authoritative and interactive learning resource in all areas of Judaism. Free membership via http://www.myjewishlearning.com/shamash ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------=
63745 37 52_Urban Legends about Sexual Practices of the Orthodox14_Martin Goodman26_martinjgoodman@hotmail.com31_Tue, 26 Aug 2003 19:22:12 +0000633_- Shalom Steve:<br><br>Sex through a hole in the sheet is a widely circulated urban myth that arises from ignorance on the part of under-educated Jews about Orthodox Judaism.<br><br>To be sure, Orthodox Judaism places restrictions on sexual practices: no homosexual sex, no extra-marital sex, no oral sex, no anal sex, no contact during menstruation, and norms of modesty regarding covering of the body outside of the bedroom. However Orthodox Judaism's principle texts, such as the the Mishnah Torah (Rambam) and the Shulchan Aruch (R. Yosef Caro), have always encouraged regular/frequent sexual relations for married couples. [...]
63783 64 34_Hole in the Sheet - another angle!12_Doug Greener25_ddwgreen@netvision.net.il31_Tue, 26 Aug 2003 19:07:17 +0200310_iso-8859-1 OK, I have to add my bit to this:<br><br>I once worked with a woman who was converting to Judaism. She came rushing in one day, after one of her classes, with the same vision Aliya had - she had seen a store selling bed linens that had a sheet with a hole right in the middle!! She was aghast! [...]
63848 89 38_Re: Hole in the Sheet - another angle!7_skolnik25_pskolnik@netvision.net.il31_Wed, 27 Aug 2003 00:41:41 +0200509_iso-8859-1 terrific story Trudy!<br><br>----- Original Message ----- From: Doug Greener To: habonet@shamash.org Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2003 7:07 PM Subject: Hole in the Sheet - another angle!<br><br><br><br>OK, I have to add my bit to this:<br><br>I once worked with a woman who was converting to Judaism. She came rushing in one day, after one of her classes, with the same vision Aliya had - she had seen a store selling bed linens that had a sheet with a hole right in the middle!! She was aghast! [...]
63938 174 24_Publication Announcement16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Tue, 26 Aug 2003 17:41:02 -0400670_us-ascii Nazis in Newark - a new book by Warren Grover<br><br>After Hitler came to power in 1933, Nazis established organizations in major American cities to propagate their racial doctrines. Newark, New Jersey, with its considerable ethnic mix of Jews, Germans, Italians, Irish and African-Americans was a primary target. Throughout the thirties and up to America's entrance into World War II, Newark's Nazis worked to convert the city's sizeable German-American population to their cause. Their efforts did not go unopposed. Nazis in Newark is a comprehensive chronicle of local Jewish resistance, both organizational and private, and it also records the efforts [...]
64113 59 56_Re: Urban Legends about Sexual Practices of the Orthodox0_23_jacknusan@earthlink.net37_Tue, 26 Aug 2003 21:57:07 -0800 (PST)544_us-ascii -------Original Message------- From: Martin Goodman <martinjgoodman@hotmail.com> Sent: 08/26/03 11:22 AM To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: Urban Legends about Sexual Practices of the Orthodox<br><br>> > Shalom Steve:<br><br>Sex through a hole in the sheet is a widely circulated urban myth that arises from ignorance on the part of under-educated Jews about Orthodox Judaism.<br><br>To be sure, Orthodox Judaism places restrictions on sexual practices: no homosexual sex, no extra-marital sex, no oral sex, no anal sex, no contact [...]
64173 34 21_RE: What are the odd?0_25_batel_libes@earthlink.net31_Tue, 26 Aug 2003 19:48:08 -0700577_iso-8859-1 Lowell High School in S.F.<br><br>-----Original Message----- From: owner-habonet@shamash.org [mailto:owner-habonet@shamash.org]On Behalf Of Greg Taylor Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2003 12:36 PM To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: Re: What are the odd?<br><br>what high school? Cindy Taylor<br><br><br><br><br><br>------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...]
64208 69 21_Re: What are the odd?15_Beverly Warshai16_warshais@tir.com31_Tue, 26 Aug 2003 22:48:38 -0400539_iso-8859-1 Hi Batel, What timing! I was just telling my daughter a similar story about the odds...<br><br>I am in a Lamaze class, swollen and pregnant to the hilt with my second child and very anxious about how to manage the idea of a growing family. It is the first day of class so the teacher asks us to introduce ourselves. As we go around the circle saying our names the equally distended and pregnant woman next to me says her name "Ava". My eyebrows raise at the unusual name as I say mine and then proceed to gaze intensely at [...]
64278 86 0_12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Wed, 27 Aug 2003 09:47:42 +0200342_us-ascii Haverim/ot Yoram Kaniuk is my age. He wrote an op-ed to Haaretz after the latest suicide obscenity in which so many Haredim of all ages and genders were killed. Like Yoram I am a product of palmach's value system and the indelible experiences of the War of Liberation. But the writing on our sensitivities came out differently. [...]
64365 57 30_Question for listserve manager12_Doug Greener25_ddwgreen@netvision.net.il31_Wed, 27 Aug 2003 10:59:19 +0200386_iso-8859-1 I have had the feeling for a while that I haven't been getting all the messages from Habonet - I seem to come in on the middle of discussions sometimes, with people referring to postings I haven't seen.<br><br>The proof is that yesterday I sent a message to Habonet, and didn't get it back myself - but a response to it was posted, so I know that others did receive it. [...]
64423 120 34_RE: Question for listserve manager12_Stopak, Noam20_NStopak@orionsci.com31_Wed, 27 Aug 2003 06:33:56 -0400389_- Trudy - if you are getting any habonet messages the listserv is sending them all to you. The one exception is your own messages. You can set whether you receive your own messages. If you want to receive them send a message with the following contents to listproc@shamash.org <mailto:listproc@shamash.org> (not habonet@shamash.org <mailto:habonet@shamash.org> ) SET Habonet mail ack [...]
64544 108 23_Yoram Kaniuk -Losing it12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Wed, 27 Aug 2003 14:15:48 +0200550_us-ascii An elegant and painful nobility By Yoram Kaniuk<br><br><br><br>But the Ashkenazi Haredim do not hold anyone to blame. With a sort of nobility devoid of pathos, they live in a world that lies outside of history. What is true in our world is not real truth for them. They live in a world in which the Blessed be He loves the Jewish people and whatever befalls a person is God's handiwork. God instructed his chosen people to fulfill his commandments and to do what is good in his eyes. God does not need to explain what this good is. The [...]
64653 29 34_Re: Question for listserve manager13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Wed, 27 Aug 2003 08:46:35 -0400749_us-ascii Dear Trudy,<br><br>This isn't proof. You may have set the listserve so that your own messages don't come to you. (NOACK)<br><br>Warmly, Judy Gelman<br><br><br><br><br><br>------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/<br><br>* * FREE JEWISH LEARNING * * Shamash invites you to join MyJewishLearning.com, a comprehensive, objective, authoritative and interactive learning resource in all areas of Judaism. Free membership via http://www.myjewishlearning.com/shamash ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------=
64683 180 34_Re: Question for listserve manager14_aviva grosbard18_deang@bezeqint.net31_Wed, 27 Aug 2003 16:22:16 +0200385_windows-1255 Messagenope-not true I think cause someone wrote >nice story Trudy" or something to that effect and I never got any story:( I think some people dont yet all the postings for some reason-myself included. Aviva ----- Original Message ----- From: Stopak, Noam To: habonet@shamash.org Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2003 12:33 PM Subject: RE: Question for listserve manager [...]
64864 195 34_RE: Question for listserve manager12_Stopak, Noam20_NStopak@orionsci.com31_Wed, 27 Aug 2003 09:34:02 -0400475_- If that is the case, perhaps there are other mechanisms at work, e.g. spam filters, and other mechanisms which block messages with certain content, but the shamash habonet listserv is not the culprit.<br><br>The best way to be sure something actually reached the list is to view the archive at the shamash.org site. If a message got there but didn't reach you, perhaps the problem is with some program on your computer or some filtering done by your service provider. [...]
65060 45 34_Re: Question for listserve manager0_14_KBob24@aol.com29_Wed, 27 Aug 2003 10:58:06 EDT127_US-ASCII FYI, our moderator Brian is on vacation this week so if we need him to look into this....please be patient.<br><br>Ken
65106 83 34_Re: Question for listserve manager8_molieric25_molieric@netvision.net.il31_Wed, 27 Aug 2003 20:27:19 +0200378_iso-8859-1 Dear Ken,<br><br>I just want to let you know that I am going abroad in Sept., so, please do not send me E mail. Do I get in touch with you when I come home?<br><br>All the best and<br><br>??? ???? ????? ----- Original Message ----- From: KBob24@aol.com To: habonet@shamash.org Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2003 4:58 PM Subject: Re: Question for listserve manager [...]
65190 161 58_NYC-area Habonetters invited to march in Labor Day Parade!0_13_JLCAA@aol.com29_Wed, 27 Aug 2003 13:33:36 EDT564_UTF-8 August 26, 2003 Labor Day is one week away and working men and women across the U.S. are gearing up to celebrate and rededicate ourselves to guaranteeing that every worker has the freedom to form a union without employer interference.  And one week later, New York is marching. NYC area Habonetters and their friends are invited to join us at the New York City Labor Day Parade, on Saturday, Sept. 6th. The Jewish Labor Committee will be meeting in Manhattan at 10:30 am on 44th Street east of Fifth Avenue -- look for our banner! We'll be near the [...]
65352 188 34_RE: Question for listserve manager12_Stopak, Noam20_NStopak@orionsci.com31_Wed, 27 Aug 2003 14:18:04 -0400435_windows-1255 Hi Mollie,<br><br>Send email to listproc@shamash.org <mailto:listproc@shamash.org> containing<br><br><br><br>SET Habonet mail postpone<br><br>This halts all list mail until you send one of the others again. This is the preferred way to stop a subscription for vacations.<br><br>WHen you return send one of the following depending on whether you wish to receive individual messages or the digest: SET Habonet mail ack [...]
65541 153 15_FW: Monthly FAQ12_Stopak, Noam20_NStopak@orionsci.com31_Wed, 27 Aug 2003 14:23:57 -0400721_- <br><br>Don't recall seeing this lately, but since there have been a couple of questions, perhaps it will be useful<br><br>Noam<br><br>-----Original Message----- From: Jennifer Kay [mailto:kay@elvis.rowan.edu] Sent: Monday, June 03, 2002 2:32 AM To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: Monthly FAQ<br><br><br><br>Actually-from:brianscoop@aol.com<br><br>Hi Chevre,<br><br>Here is a reminder of the "essential" commands that you can use to configure your subscription to Habonet. I will post this monthly from now on. Please note -- The address for commands is: listproc@shamash.org whereas the address for posts to the list is: habonet@shamash.org If you need any help with any of it, send me an email: brianscoop@aol.com [...]
65695 73 34_Re: Question for listserve manager0_14_KBob24@aol.com29_Wed, 27 Aug 2003 15:11:48 EDT362_US-ASCII In a message dated 8/27/2003 2:16:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time, NStopak@orionsci.com writes: Hi Mollie,<br><br>Send email to listproc@shamash.org containing SET Habonet mail postpone Thank you, Noam, for "filling in" for Brian.<br><br>Molly - please follow Noam's instructions - we are "self serve" here!<br><br>an early Shana Tova to you too!<br><br>Ken
65769 225 17_Keeping the Peace0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com29_Wed, 27 Aug 2003 15:45:53 EDT643_US-ASCII This is from today's NYT. I found it interesting.<br><br>Sam<br><br>Pittsburgh<br><br>The Price of Not Keeping the Peace By ARTHUR HERTZBERG<br><br><br><br>he cycle of violence that is once again gripping the Middle East presents the United States with another setback in its role as regional peace broker. Never has it become more clear that diplomacy alone cannot secure a workable truce between the Israelis and Palestinians. No resolution of the conflict is possible unless the United States pressures the two parties to make concessions that they have refused for decades to make. But what tools can Washington use? What if [...]
65995 59 40_New York Post 08/25/ Columbia's Problems11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org31_Wed, 27 Aug 2003 21:05:43 -0500354_us-ascii August 25, 2003 -- THIS week, Rashid Khalidi starts his new job as the first Edward Said Chair of Middle East Studies at Columbia University, as well as director of the school's Middle East Institute. His arrival augments the school's already acute problems of extremism and intolerance on the Middle East. Examples of Columbia's problems: [...]
66055 153 44_Fw: New York Post 08/25/ Columbia's Problems13_richard smith19_rdsmith1957@msn.com31_Thu, 28 Aug 2003 00:42:41 -0400407_iso-8859-1 Sorry I sent this to Roz instead of the group, sorry Roz. ----- Original Message ----- From: richard smith To: rbarland@mjds.org Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2003 11:17 PM Subject: Re: New York Post 08/25/ Columbia's Problems<br><br><br><br>The students that go to Columbia University are among the most gifted in the country. They are usually at least 18 years old, which makes them adults. [...]
66209 52 48_Re: Fw: New York Post 08/25/ Columbia's Problems13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Thu, 28 Aug 2003 01:46:27 -0400496_us-ascii Dear RIchard,<br><br>While I am not disagreeing with your general point about academic freedom, I do question whether being 18 is actually "adult" despite our legal definition.<br><br>The US made 18 year olds "adults" largely as a result of pressures related to Vietnam. Rather than raising the draft age to 21 (the traditional age of majority under English common law), our government lowered the voting age to 18 and made it the age of majority (but then raised the drinking age. [...]
66262 138 51_Civil rights hero Rustin gets credit -- years later16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Fri, 29 Aug 2003 08:56:50 -0400115_us-ascii <br><br>http://www.dfw.com/mld/startelegram/news/nation/6637876.htm?template=contentModules/printstory.jsp
66401 1543 53_Gallup Poll Analyses - Labor Unions Broadly Supported16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Fri, 29 Aug 2003 10:14:13 -040061_us-ascii <br><br>http://gallup.com/poll/releases/pr030829.asp
67945 143 22_Re:Columbia's Problems12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Fri, 29 Aug 2003 18:08:51 +0200409_us-ascii Haverot/im When I saw the subject line I thought the discussion would be about the NASA disaster but discovered that it was about > Are college professors supposed to be unbiased? and about > The average 18 year old is still an adolescent psychologically as well as physically. Many experts think that legal adulthood should happen in stages, with full adulthood somewhere between an 25 and 30. [...]
68089 223 34_Re: Question for listserve manager8_molieric25_molieric@netvision.net.il31_Fri, 29 Aug 2003 18:13:59 +0200406_windows-1255 MessageNoam, thank you for your help. I would like to wish you and all the readers:<br><br>ùðä èåáä åîáåøú<br><br>Mollie Marx ----- Original Message ----- From: Stopak, Noam To: habonet@shamash.org Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2003 8:18 PM Subject: RE: Question for listserve manager<br><br><br><br>Hi Mollie,<br><br>Send email to listproc@shamash.org containing SET Habonet mail postpone [...]
68313 76 55_Re: Civil rights hero Rustin gets credit -- years later0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Fri, 29 Aug 2003 11:15:17 EDT381_US-ASCII I quoted Rustin years ago in my Masters Thesis (1970) where in testimony before Congress he responded to a question about Negro attitudinal and cultural differences as a barrier to full social integration by saying, "The difference between the poor and the rich, is money."<br><br>Another of my favorite Thesis rememberances is a letter to the Census Bureau I found: [...]
68390 51 23_Frontline - Small World0_13_Mmxmm@aol.com29_Fri, 29 Aug 2003 11:40:54 EDT453_US-ASCII <br><br>Did anyone see the Frontline - Small Planet series on PBS piece on the 'treatment' of journalists in the West Bank. I saw it last night and never have I seen a more graphic and disturbing view of the Israeli army's [Gov't] assault on journalists and cameramen who have themselves become 'legitimate targets' by virtue of their ability to document the carnage. Chilling to say the least. I strongly urge everyone to see this piece. [...]
68442 270 34_RE: Question for listserve manager12_Stopak, Noam20_NStopak@orionsci.com31_Fri, 29 Aug 2003 12:10:45 -0400405_windows-1255 You're welcome, and thank you, and have a safe trip and a shana tova<br><br>Noam<br><br>-----Original Message----- From: molieric [mailto:molieric@netvision.net.il] Sent: Friday, August 29, 2003 12:14 PM To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: Re: Question for listserve manager<br><br><br><br>Noam, thank you for your help. I would like to wish you and all the readers:<br><br>ùðä èåáä åîáåøú [...]
68713 58 55_Re: Civil rights hero Rustin gets credit -- years later0_13_JLCAA@aol.com29_Fri, 29 Aug 2003 13:46:09 EDT491_US-ASCII FYI A few years ago will looking into the history of the Jewish Labor Committee, I found the organization had an extremely close relationship with MLK and Rustin. Rustin, the architect of the March on Washington, was short of qualified staff. He turned to the JLC which assigned a couple of staff to Rustin fulltime, to help organize the march. JLC also organized and provided marshalls for the march and was a major link between organized labor and the civil rights movement. [...]
68772 53 55_Re: Civil rights hero Rustin gets credit -- years later0_13_Mmxmm@aol.com29_Fri, 29 Aug 2003 13:58:57 EDT550_US-ASCII I have faded memories of a winter kinus in DC...circa '64[?] whose entire focus was the civil rights movement. I recall that we were exposed to a range of civil rights organizations and activists thru a series of seminars and face to face meetings. Habonim actively reached out to these emerging groups to both educate our own 'youth' and affiate ourselves with the civil rights struggle. We were housed all over the DC area and I remember staying at the US Old Soldiers Home with Joey Paimer and Sol Pavoni. Anyone else in attendance? [...]
68826 222 75_Forward/ A Failed Israeli Society Collapses While Its Leaders remain Silent11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org31_Fri, 29 Aug 2003 21:22:02 -0500586_ISO-8859-1 <br><br>A Failed Israeli Society Collapses While Its Leaders Remain Silent By AVRAHAM BURG The Zionist revolution has always rested on two pillars: a just path and an ethical leadership. Neither of these is operative any longer. The Israeli nation today rests on a scaffolding of corruption, and on foundations of oppression and injustice. As such, the end of the Zionist enterprise is already on our doorstep. There is a real chance that ours will be the last Zionist generation. There may yet be a Jewish state here, but it will be a different sort, strange and ugly. [...]
69049 43 66_Israeli Soldiers Firing at Journalistic Cameramen in the West Bank14_Martin Goodman26_martinjgoodman@hotmail.com31_Sat, 30 Aug 2003 05:52:56 +0000664_- Shalom Marc,<br><br>I watched the Frontline report about Israeli soldiers firing at journalistic cameramen in the West Bank.<br><br>Without diminishing the seriousness of this matter, it is worth noting that the report consisted almost entirely of accounts from Palestinian cameramen. The only Israelis in the report were an Israeli journalist associated with the BiTzelem organization and a government spokesperson who was asked to justify, if he could, a film of a shooting of a Palestinian cameraman that occurred three years ago. However, no Israeli soldiers were interviewed and no attempt was made to ascertain the reasons that Israeli soldiers shoot [...]
69093 50 70_Re: Israeli Soldiers Firing at Journalistic Cameramen in the West Bank0_14_Ohanka@aol.com29_Sat, 30 Aug 2003 10:31:53 EDT701_US-ASCII <br><br>In a message dated 8/30/03 1:53:25 AM, martinjgoodman@hotmail.com writes:<br><br><< Shalom Marc,<br><br>I watched the Frontline report about Israeli soldiers firing at journalistic cameramen in the West Bank.<br><br>Without diminishing the seriousness of this matter, it is worth noting that the report consisted almost entirely of accounts from Palestinian cameramen. The only Israelis in the report were an Israeli journalist associated with the BiTzelem organization and a government spokesperson who was asked to justify, if he could, a film of a shooting of a Palestinian cameraman that occurred three years ago. However, no Israeli soldiers were interviewed and no attempt [...]
69144 74 16_Wearing Blinders14_Martin Goodman26_martinjgoodman@hotmail.com31_Sat, 30 Aug 2003 18:27:26 +0000341_- Shalom Hank,<br><br>You wrote regarding my posting about the FRONTLINE report about Israeli soldiers shooting at Palestinian cameramen, "" If those are your conclusions, you've got blinders on. Do you think all of the Palestinian journalists were lying? Making excuses for Israel's policies is not going to improve the status quo. "" [...]
69219 104 12_Who Is A Jew13_richard smith19_rdsmith1957@msn.com31_Sat, 30 Aug 2003 16:00:53 -0400453_iso-8859-1 In light of the recent discussion on Habonet concerning Jewishness I thought a story I just heard today on CSPAN would be of interest.<br><br>Bryan Mark Rigg, the author of a new book entitled, Hitler's Jewish Soldiers, was giving a talk and he told the story of a particular German michling (half Jew) who in 1938 was drafted into the German Army, and like most half-Jews was dismissed from the army in 1940 after the war appeared won. [...]
69324 108 20_Re: Wearing Blinders0_13_Mmxmm@aol.com29_Sat, 30 Aug 2003 16:49:51 EDT619_US-ASCII <br><br>> <<The centerpiece of the FRONTLINE article was the shooting with rubber > coated > bullets of a Palestinian cameraman about THREE YEARS AGO. Why show this > footage rather than more recent footage?>> > > The Frontline piece interviewed several cameramen who were fired upon and > injured not to mention some ABC [ I believe ] Americans who were more recently > fired upon even after identifying themselves. When first showed the footage, > an Israeli official was 'speechless' and clearly shaken himself although when > reinterviewed a year later had apparently grown some pretty thick hide and [...]
69433 32 23_Re: HABONET digest 26740_21_curchacksalz@juno.com31_Sat, 30 Aug 2003 18:02:45 -0400489_- Ken, I didn't see any response in Habonet to your questions about camps Ein Harod and Revivim. In case you haven't received any yet, Ein Harod was indeed in Ellenville and Revivim was near Ottawa Ontario (perhaps Fitzroy Harbour). Bev racha Bobby Salz<br><br>________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! [...]
69466 429 17_A call to heed!!!0_15_NEVETS2@aol.com29_Sun, 31 Aug 2003 02:02:41 EDT596_UTF-8 <br><br>A Failed Israeli Society Collapses While Its Leaders Remain Silent<br><br>By AVRAHAM BURG<br><br>The Zionist revolution has always rested on two pillars: a just path and an ethical leadership. Neither of these is operative any longer. The Israeli nation today rests on a scaffolding of corruption, and on foundations of oppression and injustice. As such, the end of the Zionist enterprise is already on our doorstep. There is a real chance that ours will be the last Zionist generation. There may yet be a Jewish state here, but it will be a different sort, strange and ugly. [...]
69896 67 45_NYTimes.com Article: How to Talk About Israel0_20_emskol@bellsouth.net37_Sun, 31 Aug 2003 07:42:35 -0400 (EDT)934_US-ASCII This article from NYTimes.com has been sent to you by emskol@bellsouth.net.<br><br><br><br>/-------------------- advertisement -----------------------\<br><br>Explore more of Starbucks at Starbucks.com. http://www.starbucks.com/default.asp?ci=1015 \----------------------------------------------------------/<br><br>How to Talk About Israel<br><br>August 31, 2003 By IAN BURUMA<br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br>Is anti-Semitism behind much of the world's view that Israel moves American foreign policy? Thoughts on a very loaded question.<br><br>http://www.nytimes.com/2003/08/31/magazine/31ANTISEMITISM.html?ex=1063330155&ei=1&en=a3838f7b1060ac73<br><br><br><br>---------------------------------<br><br>Get Home Delivery of The New York Times Newspaper. Imagine reading The New York Times any time & anywhere you like! Leisurely catch up on events & expand your horizons. Enjoy now for 50% off Home Delivery! Click here: [...]
69964 52 16_Re: Who Is A Jew0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com29_Sun, 31 Aug 2003 08:14:57 EDT427_US-ASCII Thank you for this moving story about a victim of Hitler and an Israeli soldier who was told he was not Jewish. Who are the fascists in this story? I could not tell whether it was The Nazi's who sent him to a labor camp and killed his family or the agents of the orthodox who told him he was not Jewish. Perhaps we have two faccist groups here. Gee maybe I am just over reacting to the story.Maybe I am confused. [...]
70017 109 20_Re: Wearing Blinders0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com29_Sun, 31 Aug 2003 10:09:19 EDT572_US-ASCII <br><br>Dear Marc, (see below for Marc's comments)<br><br>I understand your concerns. I think you really need to pay attention to what Benny Morris is saying. Sometimes one can miss the big picture by getting to bogged down in the details. I have always been a fan of Benny Morris's, even though I don't know him personally. He writes with great insight and wisdom. But let me add this. The occupation is doing bad things to Israel. We really should not have 18 year old kids on the "Frontline" of such a terrible conflict. I am not surprised that there are [...]