1 SHAMASH.ORG /usr/www/wwwhc/listserv/archives/habonet April 2003 2 54 14_Bulgarian Jews16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Tue, 01 Apr 2003 09:32:37 -0500435_us-ascii In Habonet 2543, Steve Klein posted a recounting about Bulgaria's Jews in WW II. It's final lines recount that



The most famous of those saved was a young graduate of the Bulgarian Military Academy. When he arrived in Israel, he changed his name to Moshe Dayan.

This is incorrect. Dayan was a sabra, born in Degania in 1915. Encyclopedia of Zionism and Israel, Vol. I, p. 241. Herzl Press (New York:1971). 57 50 8_Bulgaria12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Tue, 01 Apr 2003 22:02:11 +0200426_us-ascii Sorry. Moshe Dayan wasn't born in Bulgaria. He was born in one of the Deganyot (A or B.) The closest connection - and its a stretch - are two other Israeli chiefs of staff, Dado (David Elazar,) and Hayim Bar Lev. The first was born in Sarajevo, Yugoslavia and the second was born in Vienna, Austria, he came from Yugoslavia to Palestine in 1939. Bulgarian Jewry had a small but proud contingent at kibbutz Urim. [...] 108 49 10_Bulgarians12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Tue, 01 Apr 2003 22:10:38 +0200431_us-ascii Sorry. Moshe Dayan wasn't born in Bulgaria. He was born in one of the Deganyot (A or B.) The closest connection - and its a stretch - are two other Israeli chiefs of staff, Dado (David Elazar,) and Hayim Bar Lev. The first was born in Sarajevo, Yugoslavia and the second was born in Vienna, Austria, he came from Yugoslavia to Palestine in 1939. Bulgarian Jewry did have a small but proud contingent at kibbutz Urim. [...] 158 49 10_Bulgarians12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Tue, 01 Apr 2003 22:17:12 +0200431_us-ascii Sorry. Moshe Dayan wasn't born in Bulgaria. He was born in one of the Deganyot (A or B.) The closest connection - and its a stretch - are two other Israeli chiefs of staff, Dado (David Elazar,) and Hayim Bar Lev. The first was born in Sarajevo, Yugoslavia and the second was born in Vienna, Austria, he came from Yugoslavia to Palestine in 1939. Bulgarian Jewry did have a small but proud contingent at kibbutz Urim. [...] 208 37 14_Re: Bulgarians0_15_DebALev@aol.com28_Tue, 1 Apr 2003 15:06:00 EST147_US-ASCII When a forwarded article has such a GLARING error (i.e. about Dayan, easily verified or rebutted), I wonder what other inaccuracies exist. 246 563 43_RE: The power of words and the DIxie Chicks6_Kathee26_holycowfoods@earthlink.net30_Tue, 1 Apr 2003 15:30:26 -0800613_US-ASCII I just received this and thought it advances this previous discussion:

Apology from Natalie Maines of The Dixie Chicks:

As a concerned American citizen, I apologize to President Bush because my remark was disrespectful. I now realize that whoever holds that office should be treated with the utmost respect.

I hope everyone understands, I'm just a young girl who grew up in Texas. As far back as I can remember, I heard people say they were ashamed of President Clinton. I saw bumper stickers calling him everything from a pothead to a murderer. I heard people on the radio and [...] 810 441 43_Re: The power of words and the DIxie Chicks13_richard smith19_rdsmith1957@msn.com30_Tue, 1 Apr 2003 19:28:01 -0500641_iso-8859-1 I don't believe this letter. ----- Original Message ----- From: Kathee To: habonet@shamash.org Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 6:30 PM Subject: RE: The power of words and the DIxie Chicks



I just received this and thought it advances this previous discussion: Apology from Natalie Maines of The Dixie Chicks: As a concerned American citizen, I apologize to President Bush becausemy remark was disrespectful. I now realize that whoever holds thatoffice should be treated with the utmost respect. I hope everyone understands, I'm just a young girl who grew up in Texas.As far back as I can remember, I heard people [...] 1252 114 43_Re: The power of words and the DIxie Chicks12_Rita Katcher23_rkatchersusse@yahoo.com36_Tue, 1 Apr 2003 17:03:37 -0800 (PST)622_us-ascii Good Grief! How about some critical reading here? Would people PLEASE check out www.snopes.com before broadcasting this stuff? If you search "Dixie Chicks" and read down the article, you'd find that this is a SATIRE that's been making the rounds.

Rita Katcher

--- richard smith wrote: > I don't believe this letter. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Kathee > To: habonet@shamash.org > Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 6:30 PM > Subject: RE: The power of words and the DIxie > Chicks > > > I just received this and thought it advances this > previous discussion: Apology [...] 1367 45 43_Re: The power of words and the DIxie Chicks0_15_DebALev@aol.com28_Tue, 1 Apr 2003 20:25:43 EST107_US-ASCII I saw the letter on another list and was told it was a hoax.



Too bad.

Debbie 1413 245 43_RE: The power of words and the DIxie Chicks12_Stopak, Noam20_NStopak@orionsci.com30_Tue, 1 Apr 2003 21:02:53 -0500542_iso-8859-1 Me either, but it still made me want to run out and buy a record ;-) -----Original Message----- From: richard smith [mailto:rdsmith1957@msn.com] Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 7:28 PM To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: Re: The power of words and the DIxie Chicks



I don't believe this letter. ----- Original Message ----- From: Kathee To: habonet@shamash.org Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 6:30 PM Subject: RE: The power of words and the DIxie Chicks [...] 1659 110 14_Re: Bulgarians29_Richard Steacy & Esther Cohen22_richard.steacy@gte.net30_Tue, 1 Apr 2003 21:08:17 -0500454_iso-8859-1 the details of any story like this can be debated, but the basics are true. there are two books you can read about it, that i know off the top of my head - Crown of Thorns, a biography of King Simeon (whose son is the current prime minister of Bulgaria), by Stephane Groueff (who also wrote, i recently learned, about the Manhattan Project); and Beyond Hitler's Grasp (which is I think where this discussion began), by Michael Bar Zohar. [...] 1770 165 14_Re: Mel Gibson15_Lorraine Kotler20_lorraine@infinet.com30_Tue, 1 Apr 2003 21:57:45 -0500572_iso-8859-1 I hope this is true. Mel Gibson used to be one of my favorite actors.

-Lorraine ----- Original Message ----- From: Elihu D. Davison To: Habonet Sent: Monday, March 31, 2003 5:02 PM Subject: Mel Gibson



For those of you concerned about the New York Times' recent report about actor Mel Gibson's fundamentalist Catholicism, his father's alleged anti-Semitism and the nature of the film The Passion, which he's now producing. This blurb came from the Jewish Council for Public Affairs (formerly NJCRAC.) Hopefully the report is accurate. [...] 1936 560 43_RE: The power of words and the DIxie Chicks6_Kathee26_holycowfoods@earthlink.net30_Tue, 1 Apr 2003 19:01:12 -0800706_iso-8859-1 I don’t know if it’s “real” or not but it is “true”. We sure are living in some surreal times.





-----Original Message----- From: owner-habonet@shamash.org [mailto:owner-habonet@shamash.org]On Behalf Of Stopak, Noam Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 6:03 PM To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: RE: The power of words and the DIxie Chicks

Me either, but it still made me want to run out and buy a record ;-) -----Original Message----- From: richard smith [mailto:rdsmith1957@msn.com] Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 7:28 PM To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: Re: The power of words and the DIxie Chicks I don't believe this letter. ----- Original Message ----- From: Kathee [...] 2497 50 20_Synagogue in Beijing0_14_KBob24@aol.com28_Tue, 1 Apr 2003 23:48:35 EST235_US-ASCII Is Phil out there?

Sorry to use Habonet for a personal message, but I have friend who may be traveling to Beijing and would be there for Shavuot. Is there a functioning synagogue he can attend?

Thanks,

Ken 2548 92 24_Re: Synagogue in Beijing12_Karen Fisher23_pkfisher19@peoplepc.com30_Wed, 2 Apr 2003 00:30:37 -0500500_iso-8859-1 Ken even though I have never been to Beijing, I have from good sources that Chabad is very active there.

Karen Fisher ----- Original Message ----- From: KBob24@aol.com To: habonet@shamash.org Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 11:48 PM Subject: Synagogue in Beijing



Is Phil out there?

Sorry to use Habonet for a personal message, but I have friend who may be traveling to Beijing and would be there for Shavuot. Is there a functioning synagogue he can attend? [...] 2641 38 43_RE: The power of words and the DIxie Chicks12_Rita Katcher23_rkatchersusse@yahoo.com36_Tue, 1 Apr 2003 22:15:27 -0800 (PST)385_us-ascii Not to quibble, but what's your distinction? Did you bother to check the veracity of what you posted before you put it out on Habonet? We all carry a responsibility for our words, surreal times or not.

Rita

--- Kathee wrote: > I don’t know if it’s “real” or not but it is “true”. > We sure are living in > some surreal times. > [...] 2680 48 43_RE: The power of words and the DIxie Chicks12_Stopak, Noam20_NStopak@orionsci.com30_Wed, 2 Apr 2003 06:30:04 -0500308_iso-8859-1 Not to quibble, but why pick on Kathee in this regard? How about the recent Moshe Dayan business or any of the other endless dreck that is forwarded from various sources?

Like the sunscreen speech that was attibuted to Vonnegut I like the words and don't really care about the source. [...] 2729 60 24_Re: Synagogue in Beijing7_jzatkin26_jzatkin@public2.bta.net.cn30_Wed, 2 Apr 2003 22:18:13 +0800370_iso-8859-1 Ken, Shalom,

> Sorry to use Habonet for a personal message, but I have friend who may be > traveling to Beijing and would be there for Shavuot. Is there a functioning > synagogue he can attend?

There is no synagogue per se, but there is a congregation called Kehillat Beijing which may suffice for your friend. Check out: www.sinogogue.org [...] 2790 220 41_FW: AXIS OF EVIL WANNABEES by John Cleese11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com30_Wed, 2 Apr 2003 07:04:40 -0800673_iso-8859-1 It's been a while since something this..............never mind. Just read it for yourself.

Steve



-----Original Message----- From: Tojackk H [mailto:tojackk@hotmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 10:43 PM To: undisclosed-recipients: Subject: AXIS OF EVIL WANNABEES by John Cleese



AXIS OF EVIL WANNABEES by John Cleese

Bitter after being snubbed for membership in the "Axis of Evil", Libya, China and Syria today announced that they had formed the "Axis of Just as Evil", which they said would be more evil than that stupid Iran-Iraq-North Korea axis President Bush warned of in his State of the Union address. [...] 3011 43 11_Great Music0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com28_Wed, 2 Apr 2003 10:50:38 EST357_US-ASCII Wow- what I started- I only wanted to make the point that people who are famous have a little responsibility for what they say- since they are powerful "dugmaot"--politics should NOT interfere with appreciation for their art.- That is what makes America such an amazing place! As a matter of fact, I have all of their cd's and love their music..sue 3055 69 43_RE: The power of words and the DIxie Chicks6_Kathee26_holycowfoods@earthlink.net30_Wed, 2 Apr 2003 08:18:52 -0800632_US-ASCII I never said it was true or not I just said it would advance the discussion, which it obviously did. Here's the poop on the entry. It's from this site:

http://www.thespeciousreport.com/

They cleverly made it look just like the Chicks official site.

This is what she really said:

"As a concerned American citizen, I apologize to President Bush because my remark was disrespectful. I feel that whoever holds that office should be treated with the utmost respect. We are currently in Europe and witnessing a huge anti-American sentiment as a result of the perceived rush to war. While war may [...] 3125 63 43_Re: The power of words and the DIxie Chicks13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il30_Wed, 2 Apr 2003 20:29:58 +0200435_iso-8859-1 On a non-political note, I think it's great that this discussion is bringing all of the country music lovers on the Habonet out of the closet. I get a lot of good-natured ribbing from some of my friends here 'cause I listen to country, although I haven't heard any Dixie Chicks yet. Funny, when I was in the movement my friends and I wouldn't have been caught dead listening to country. Could it be a middle-age thing? [...] 3189 59 43_Re: The power of words and the DIxie Chicks0_15_DebALev@aol.com28_Wed, 2 Apr 2003 13:19:49 EST367_US-ASCII Jon, the more I listen to country music, the more I see it as the child of a lot of folk. I remember singing "Salty Dog" at our Cincinnati kumsitzim, which is blue grass; think about some of the Bob Gibson stuff, Lighfoot, some from Dylan and Judy Collins......and some of the more traditional country stuff like earlyDolly Parton, Johnny Cash, etc.... [...] 3249 124 43_Re: The power of words and the DIxie Chicks14_aviva grosbard18_deang@bezeqint.net30_Wed, 2 Apr 2003 21:51:50 +0200612_iso-8859-1 I think you might mean "kissin cousins" and not a "child of folk" have a feeling its been around just as long if not longer and what does it matter if you call it "folk or "country" as long as you enjoy it and if it brings back "kumzitz" memories-then all the better:).This from a old Tavor veteran-Aviva (formerly Lutsky) now Grosbard-formerly Milwaukee now Omer Israel and BTW if anyone is "in the neighborhood" please drop in . That's a true and honest invitation straight from the heart. Aviva ----- Original Message ----- From: DebALev@aol.com To: habonet@shamash.org Sent: Wednesday, April [...] 3374 124 43_Re: The power of words and the DIxie Chicks14_aviva grosbard18_deang@bezeqint.net30_Wed, 2 Apr 2003 21:52:09 +0200612_iso-8859-1 I think you might mean "kissin cousins" and not a "child of folk" have a feeling its been around just as long if not longer and what does it matter if you call it "folk or "country" as long as you enjoy it and if it brings back "kumzitz" memories-then all the better:).This from a old Tavor veteran-Aviva (formerly Lutsky) now Grosbard-formerly Milwaukee now Omer Israel and BTW if anyone is "in the neighborhood" please drop in . That's a true and honest invitation straight from the heart. Aviva ----- Original Message ----- From: DebALev@aol.com To: habonet@shamash.org Sent: Wednesday, April [...] 3499 124 43_Re: The power of words and the DIxie Chicks14_aviva grosbard18_deang@bezeqint.net30_Wed, 2 Apr 2003 21:52:17 +0200612_iso-8859-1 I think you might mean "kissin cousins" and not a "child of folk" have a feeling its been around just as long if not longer and what does it matter if you call it "folk or "country" as long as you enjoy it and if it brings back "kumzitz" memories-then all the better:).This from a old Tavor veteran-Aviva (formerly Lutsky) now Grosbard-formerly Milwaukee now Omer Israel and BTW if anyone is "in the neighborhood" please drop in . That's a true and honest invitation straight from the heart. Aviva ----- Original Message ----- From: DebALev@aol.com To: habonet@shamash.org Sent: Wednesday, April [...] 3624 124 43_Re: The power of words and the DIxie Chicks14_aviva grosbard18_deang@bezeqint.net30_Wed, 2 Apr 2003 21:52:19 +0200612_iso-8859-1 I think you might mean "kissin cousins" and not a "child of folk" have a feeling its been around just as long if not longer and what does it matter if you call it "folk or "country" as long as you enjoy it and if it brings back "kumzitz" memories-then all the better:).This from a old Tavor veteran-Aviva (formerly Lutsky) now Grosbard-formerly Milwaukee now Omer Israel and BTW if anyone is "in the neighborhood" please drop in . That's a true and honest invitation straight from the heart. Aviva ----- Original Message ----- From: DebALev@aol.com To: habonet@shamash.org Sent: Wednesday, April [...] 3749 124 43_Re: The power of words and the DIxie Chicks14_aviva grosbard18_deang@bezeqint.net30_Wed, 2 Apr 2003 21:52:25 +0200612_iso-8859-1 I think you might mean "kissin cousins" and not a "child of folk" have a feeling its been around just as long if not longer and what does it matter if you call it "folk or "country" as long as you enjoy it and if it brings back "kumzitz" memories-then all the better:).This from a old Tavor veteran-Aviva (formerly Lutsky) now Grosbard-formerly Milwaukee now Omer Israel and BTW if anyone is "in the neighborhood" please drop in . That's a true and honest invitation straight from the heart. Aviva ----- Original Message ----- From: DebALev@aol.com To: habonet@shamash.org Sent: Wednesday, April [...] 3874 124 43_Re: The power of words and the DIxie Chicks14_aviva grosbard18_deang@bezeqint.net30_Wed, 2 Apr 2003 21:52:25 +0200612_iso-8859-1 I think you might mean "kissin cousins" and not a "child of folk" have a feeling its been around just as long if not longer and what does it matter if you call it "folk or "country" as long as you enjoy it and if it brings back "kumzitz" memories-then all the better:).This from a old Tavor veteran-Aviva (formerly Lutsky) now Grosbard-formerly Milwaukee now Omer Israel and BTW if anyone is "in the neighborhood" please drop in . That's a true and honest invitation straight from the heart. Aviva ----- Original Message ----- From: DebALev@aol.com To: habonet@shamash.org Sent: Wednesday, April [...] 3999 263 41_Re: AXIS OF EVIL WANNABEES by John Cleese15_Lorraine Kotler20_lorraine@infinet.com30_Wed, 2 Apr 2003 14:34:52 -0500383_iso-8859-1 I loved it!! Thank you for sending this. In these serious times, we can all use a good laugh.

Lorraine ----- Original Message ----- From: Steve Klein To: Habonet Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2003 10:04 AM Subject: FW: AXIS OF EVIL WANNABEES by John Cleese



It's been a while since something this..............never mind. Just read it for yourself. [...] 4263 114 41_RE: AXIS OF EVIL WANNABEES by John Cleese12_Stopak, Noam20_NStopak@orionsci.com30_Wed, 2 Apr 2003 14:23:24 -0500640_iso-8859-1 Alas, not that I didn't find it funny, but this is also a hoax, per snopes.

Gee why aren't the snopes police jumping on Steve?

Noam

Claim: Monty Python trouper John Cleese penned a satirical article about the formation of an "Axis of Just as Evil."

Status: False.

Example: [Collected on the Internet, 2003]



Bitter after being snubbed for membership in the "Axis of Evil," Libya, China, and Syria today announced they had formed the "Axis of Just as Evil," which they said would be way eviler than that stupid Iran-Iraq-North Korea axis President Bush warned of his State of [...] 4378 59 0_14_aviva grosbard18_deang@bezeqint.net30_Wed, 2 Apr 2003 22:36:24 +0200367_windows-1255 sorry about the multiple e-mails-was having a computer problem. Any old Tavor people say.....1964-1970 who might like to get in touch-please feel to drop a line-or even better-come for a visit. I live in a nice little green suburb in the south called Omer-have 3 wonderful (grown up ) kids and an adorable grandson. Anyone interested in knowing more will 4438 21 43_Re: The power of words and the DIxie Chicks0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com31_Wed, 02 Apr 2003 15:44:26 -0500582_iso-8859-1 Jon- I have been "in love" with country music for the past 15 or 20 years- ever since it began to go more "folksy"--I used to drive across the country from LA to North Carolina when I was in the film biz and listened to country for 2500 miles while on the road ( Route 40- very beautiful and interesting- really shows off this country)... The Dixie Chicks are really terrific (!)- and you should also give a listen to Toby Keith, whose sense of humor permeates his songs....Shanaia Twain's country arrangements are incredible( listen to the fiddles)....at any rate- [...] 4460 69 43_Re: The power of words and the DIxie Chicks13_richard smith19_rdsmith1957@msn.com30_Wed, 2 Apr 2003 15:54:09 -0500276_iso-8859-1 and the girl who sings "Strawberry Wine" ( her name escapes me- havinig a senior moment!)

That is Deana Carter.

BTW- Shania Twain does not play country music, except to the extent that they now play it on country stations. What Twain plays can best be 4530 21 43_Re: The power of words and the DIxie Chicks0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com31_Wed, 02 Apr 2003 17:22:43 -0500578_iso-8859-1 Thanks for Deana Carter- I remembered the second I hit the "send " button!- and Yes- you are right about Twain- but she started out on country stations--and she releases "country-like" arrangements ( as against the "pop" ones)- I still love the "violins" ( they are probably synthesizers) tracks...sue

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 4552 142 41_Re: AXIS OF EVIL WANNABEES by John Cleese15_Lorraine Kotler20_lorraine@infinet.com30_Thu, 3 Apr 2003 01:55:13 -0500484_iso-8859-1 I don't think it really matters who wrote it. I thought it was very clever and funny, and sounded like something that might have come from the Flying Circus people.

I just wonder why the author didn't take credit for it and attributed it to someone else.

Lorraine ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stopak, Noam" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2003 2:23 PM Subject: RE: AXIS OF EVIL WANNABEES by John Cleese [...] 4695 54 18_RE: After Baghdad?12_Stopak, Noam20_NStopak@orionsci.com30_Thu, 3 Apr 2003 12:26:20 -0500567_windows-1255 Thanks for sending this interesting piece Jon. Took me a while to get to it and a while to get through it, but I'm glad I did.

This reminded me of a presentation I heard at a computer and information technology security seminar I attended 7 or 8 years ago. There was a guy who had mapped the major elements of the global telecommunications infrastructure, showing the choke points in the cabling system, the limited cable laying and repair fleet etc. He made two points which stuck with me and both relate to the points made by the author of [...] 4750 990 18_Tul Karm Round Up?13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Thu, 03 Apr 2003 23:20:42 -0500576_us-ascii Dear Friends,

I am stunned by this story that the IDF has rounded up all men 15-40 in Tul Karm and removed them from the city. Even if the Israeli government thinks that removing all these men from their homes is legal or even justifiable, what good does it do to send them to another town less than 2 miles away? Please give in insight into what the Israeli government is thinking! Telling them to go to Baghdad, even as a joke, gives me the willies---Iraq seems potentially enough like the US's very own Gaza Strip, checkpoints with civilian casualties [...] 5741 428 49_Fwd: April 4 to April 16: Passover in our own day0_13_SC523@aol.com28_Fri, 4 Apr 2003 02:13:36 EST175_US-ASCII Dear Habochevreh, Some parts of this post from Habo alum Arthur Waskow are very beautifully written. I thought to share it with our list as we approach Pesach - Aliya 6170 64 22_Re: Tul Karm Round Up?13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il30_Fri, 4 Apr 2003 10:40:18 +0200397_iso-8859-1 Judi, don't you ever sleep?

The article states that the men were removed from the Nur Shams refugee camp, not from the town of Tul Karm. I assume the army had intelligence that there were terrorists hiding in the camp and wanted to separate the sheep from the goats before they started hunting the terrorists down. They'll probably be allowed back home in a couple of days. [...] 6235 51 22_Re: Tul Karm Round Up?14_Holtzer Family20_carmdave@urim.org.il30_Fri, 4 Apr 2003 12:31:55 +0200156_iso-8859-1 the men from Tul Karm were released this morning, minus several terrorists, including the Hamas regional leader who were further detained

6287 32 22_Re: Tul Karm Round Up?13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Fri, 04 Apr 2003 07:25:44 -0500423_us-ascii Thank you, Jon and Dave. It is very hard to know what's what from here and easy to jump to conclusions. You get the first (often dramatic) article but not the follow up and little of the insight. SInce Israeli papers are predominately written for Israelis who know the basics of the situation, the background details are often missing. Sometimes I feel like I need a translator even for the English articles. [...] 6320 104 23_Urgent Histadrut Appeal16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Fri, 04 Apr 2003 13:02:08 -0500578_iso-8859-1 [-- Please read this to the end. --] As you probably know Minister of Finance Benjamin Netanyahu submitted a new economic plan that was approved by the Government. It is awaiting submission to the Knesset for the first of 3 readings, as dictated by Israeli law.

The Histadrut and other labor groups have objected strenuously to the austerity plan. Even while negotiations between the Histadrut and the finance ministry continued, with out any significant breakthrough, 50,000 state workers and 100,000 employees of local authorities began strike actions. [...] 6425 142 15_Urgent campaign10_Josh Cohen22_mazkir@habonimdror.org30_Fri, 4 Apr 2003 13:35:19 -0500474_iso-8859-1

The Histadrut, Israel's Labor movement, has asked us to fax Sharon and Netanyahu to express our opposition to extensive layoffs and reductions in benefits.

The Issue: Layoffs and benefit reductions in the Histadrut -- In Israel's current budget, submitted by Netanyahu, there are extensive layoffs and cutbacks on benefits for workers in the Histadrut. The Histadrut has already started to strike. See the following articles for more details: [...] 6568 33 11_Folk Lovers11_Lon Ephraim14_cbma@erols.com31_Sat, 05 Apr 2003 00:23:30 -0500391_us-ascii This country/folk music talk reminds me...

At a movie recently, I saw coming attractions for a new movie by the "Spinal Tap", "Waiting for Guffman", and "Best in Show" crew. It's about a folk reunion and looks alarmingly like the recent one on PBS. There were some savage (but good savage) send-ups of The Christy Minstrels, Ian & Sylvia, The Kingston Trio, and others. [...] 6602 44 15_Re: Folk Lovers14_aviva grosbard18_deang@bezeqint.net30_Sat, 5 Apr 2003 08:46:59 +0200598_iso-8859-1 P.S. what is a "savage send -up"? Maybe I am a little rusty on slang from the old country. Aviva ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lon Ephraim" To: Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2003 7:23 AM Subject: Folk Lovers



> This country/folk music talk reminds me... > > At a movie recently, I saw coming attractions for a new movie by the > "Spinal Tap", "Waiting for Guffman", and "Best in Show" crew. It's > about a folk reunion and looks alarmingly like the recent one on PBS. > There were some savage (but good savage) send-ups of The [...] 6647 60 15_Re: Folk Lovers0_18_Rachelbern@aol.com28_Sat, 5 Apr 2003 02:17:35 EST580_US-ASCII I saw the coming attraction for "A Mighty Wind" tonight, and the thought flashed through my mind that it would be the ideal movie for a pre-kumzitz koonz:

Chevre have gathered from near and far, and no sooner does a specific song emerge from the scattered strummings of opening chords which could be one of any number of olde folkie songs when a policeman rushes in to inform the crowd that a rabid dog has been seen in the vicinity and everyone must go to an emergency room for a protective vaccination! We are hustled onto conveniently waiting buses, which [...] 6708 116 15_Re: Folk Lovers14_aviva grosbard18_deang@bezeqint.net30_Sat, 5 Apr 2003 16:32:16 +0200451_iso-8859-1 Well-whoever and wherever you are Rachel-no one could accuse you of lacking imagination:). Maybe I am old fashioned but I would gladly do without the whole kuntz thing and just settle for one of those long lost evenings with the strumming....If you happen to get one going-let me know:) Aviva ----- Original Message ----- From: Rachelbern@aol.com To: habonet@shamash.org Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2003 9:17 AM Subject: Re: Folk Lovers [...] 6825 79 7_Kuntzim11_Lon Ephraim14_cbma@erols.com31_Sat, 05 Apr 2003 21:41:32 -0500350_us-ascii I would like to think that my years in Habonim and the 3 decades of growth & life experience that have passed would keep me from ever falling for any kuntz again. I must admit that on reading Ricky's invitation to look for Mosh's lost chrome mine (posted on April 1, no less), all I could think was, boy, does this ever sound like one! [...] 6905 34 22_Giving in to Terrorism14_Ethan Schwartz23_arava_eilat@hotmail.com30_Sun, 6 Apr 2003 15:52:24 +0300505_iso-8859-1 Our mighty government, ever so proud of not copituating to Arab terrorism, has no problem bending in every direction for the Jewish black hatted terrorists.

"The court accepted the government's position that prayer by the women's group at the Wall itself posed a danger to public safety"

I'm waiting for the court to issue a statement "The court accepted the government's position that settlement by the fanatic groups in the westbank itself posed a danger to public safety" [...] 6940 101 26_Re: Giving in to Terrorism0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com28_Sun, 6 Apr 2003 16:25:35 EDT469_US-ASCII In a message dated 4/6/03 8:53:17 AM Eastern Daylight Time, arava_eilat@hotmail.com writes:

> > Our mighty government, ever so proud of not copituating to Arab terrorism, > has no problem bending in every direction for the Jewish black hatted > terrorists.



Stong words Ethan but I agree with you. Black hatted terrorist has a kind of Holywood feel to it. The guys in the black hats were always the bad guys in the old cowboy movies. [...] 7042 51 26_Re: Giving in to Terrorism0_18_DLerner569@aol.com28_Mon, 7 Apr 2003 11:02:19 EDT171_US-ASCII In a message dated 4/6/2003 4:26:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Smfgrappa@aol.com writes:



> Holywood

Sam, Are you going Freudian on us? Dennis 7094 37 26_Re: Giving in to Terrorism0_18_DLerner569@aol.com28_Mon, 7 Apr 2003 11:25:01 EDT673_US-ASCII Terrorfrummerism or terrafermmaerism or whatever is a religio-political intimidation practiced, I presume, by some of those cell phone connected individuals who favor fur hat bands. If my presumption is correct, should I not also presume, that as with every other dimension of Jewish religious life, there are many alternative views held with equally consumptive passion? If this is true, then why aren't the terrafrummer's canceled out by metafrummers, or the Lubovitcherfrummers, or the tzadakafrummers? Must all frummers be tarred with the same paint balls for wearing fur on their hats? Is Frummer vs. non-Frummer solidarity such that the Frummers appear [...] 7132 22 25_summer programs for kids?9_Naomi Jay21_naomi_jay@hotmail.com31_Mon, 07 Apr 2003 11:58:57 -0700 7155 121 29_Re: summer programs for kids?14_aviva grosbard18_deang@bezeqint.net30_Mon, 7 Apr 2003 22:15:10 +0200583_windows-1255 Kibbutz Urim has a riding camp for kids-check it out? You didn't say where in Israel you will be-Urim is in the south. good luck ----- Original Message ----- From: Naomi Jay To: habonet@shamash.org Sent: Monday, April 07, 2003 8:58 PM Subject: summer programs for kids?



Hi all - I'm looking for day camp/kitinot options for my 9 year old son while we're in Israel this summer. I'd like him to join any week-long program (not sleepover) to give him a chance to hang out with kids his age. I'm not interested in religious programming, he goes to a day [...] 7277 133 22_FW: to post on Habonet10_Josh Cohen22_mazkir@habonimdror.org30_Mon, 7 Apr 2003 16:52:43 -0400514_us-ascii



LABOR ZIONIST ALLIANCE DENOUNCES ISRAELI HIGH COURT DECISION ON "WOMEN OF THE WALL"

The Labor Zionist Alliance today strongly criticized the ruling of Israel's High Court of Justice to prohibit the group "Women of the Wall" from reading the Torah at the Western Wall. The court accepted the government's position that allowing the group to pray at the Wall constituted a danger to public safety, since previous attempts had provoked violence from the ultra-Orthodox community. [...] 7411 114 41_LZA Criticizes Women of the Wall Decision0_15_NEVETS2@aol.com28_Mon, 7 Apr 2003 17:21:30 EDT535_ISO-8859-1 ** FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE **

LABOR ZIONIST ALLIANCE DENOUNCES ISRAELI HIGH COURT DECISION ON "WOMEN OF THE WALL"

The Labor Zionist Alliance today strongly criticized the ruling of Israel's High Court of Justice to prohibit the group "Women of the Wall" from reading the Torah at the Western Wall. The court accepted the government's position that allowing the group to pray at the Wall constituted a danger to public safety, since previous attempts had provoked violence from the ultra-Orthodox community. [...] 7526 39 18_return of the belt13_R.E. Feinburg20_refeinburg@yahoo.com36_Mon, 7 Apr 2003 14:58:21 -0700 (PDT)537_us-ascii I hope a reader will be able to help me with this search.

I am trying to locate someone who was a chanich at Tel Ari, in either its first or second year. I do not remember his name. He was probably 12 or 13 years old. All I can recall is that at his insistence, I swapped an elaborate brass trimmed leather military belt, for a Nazi belt that had probably been taken as booty during the war by his grandfather. I came across the belt recently when house cleaning, and remembered the incident. I would like to return [...] 7566 78 21_Re:return of the belt13_richard smith19_rdsmith1957@msn.com30_Mon, 7 Apr 2003 19:08:30 -0400299_iso-8859-1 R.E. Feinburg said:

I hope a reader will be able to help me with this search.

I am trying to locate someone who was a chanich at Tel Ari, in either its first or second year.

As I recall, Tel Ari was Machaneh Bonim so none of the kids should have 7645 52 29_RE: summer programs for kids?11_Batel Libes25_batel_libes@earthlink.net30_Mon, 7 Apr 2003 17:39:22 -0700660_iso-8859-1 Hey there, When are you going? I’ll be going June 6 – 26.

-----Original Message----- From: owner-habonet@shamash.org [mailto:owner-habonet@shamash.org]On Behalf Of Naomi Jay Sent: Monday, April 07, 2003 11:59 AM To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: summer programs for kids?

Hi all - I'm looking for day camp/kitinot options for my 9 year old son while we're in Israel this summer. I'd like him to join any week-long program (not sleepover) to give him a chance to hang out with kids his age. I'm not interested in religious programming, he goes to a day school. just something fun (baseball, horsebackriding, hiking etc.). If anyone [...] 7698 150 22_RE: return of the belt10_M. Skolnik20_emskol@bellsouth.net30_Mon, 7 Apr 2003 21:02:48 -0400592_us-ascii Tel-Ari's first incarnation was in Fleischmans, NY in 1962, I believe (remember Osher and his Magic Motorcyle vs. Ogerat Jones, anyone? Ogerat is Tarego spelled backwards, the camp across the way. My Aunt Eleanor was Rosh Mitbach and "Cookie" made the best sweet rolls in the morning, but I digress....). The following year, Tel-Ari moved to Hunter. At that time, Tel-Ari was a full-fledged Habonim camp ranging from Amelim to KM Bet. I have the pictures to prove it! Later on in the 60's, Tel-Ari Hunter became the site for Machaneh Bonim, after Tel-Ari and Na'aleh re-merged. [...] 7849 63 22_RE: return of the belt13_R.E. Feinburg20_refeinburg@yahoo.com36_Tue, 8 Apr 2003 12:28:57 -0700 (PDT)631_us-ascii

Thank you Marty, but you dont remember the belt. If you come across anyone else from those days, perhaps you could ask them. "M. Skolnik" wrote:Tel-Ari's first incarnation was in Fleischmans, NY in 1962, I believe (remember Osher and his Magic Motorcyle vs. Ogerat Jones, anyone? Ogerat is Tarego spelled backwards, the camp across the way. My Aunt Eleanor was Rosh Mitbach and "Cookie" made the best sweet rolls in the morning, but I digress....). The following year, Tel-Ari moved to Hunter. At that time, Tel-Ari was a full-fledged Habonim camp ranging from Amelim to KM Bet. I have [...] 7913 49 21_Re:return of the belt13_R.E. Feinburg20_refeinburg@yahoo.com36_Tue, 8 Apr 2003 12:33:12 -0700 (PDT)455_us-ascii

OK, maybe i am even more confused than i remember being confused. If there weren't Amelim, there were ztofim, unless they were known as Choterim at the time. In any case, this kid was not among the Amelim, which were previously known as Solelim, but the next age cohort up... I think. richard smith wrote:R.E. Feinburg refeinburg@yahoo.com>said: I hope a reader will be able to help me with this search. [...] 7963 98 21_Re:return of the belt7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Tue, 08 Apr 2003 20:22:32 +0200520_iso-8859-1 I was on the national executive when we were asked to name the new Bonim Camp in Hunter. I suggested "Tel Ari" after Ari Lashner, who was killed by a sniper in Kfar Blum, I believe before 1948. The name was accepted by the Hanhala. I did not know that there was a previous camp by that name elsewhere. Ahron Sharif was the rosh machaneh that first summer, in 1963, and I was on the staff whose names I no longer recall. We were located next to and part of Red Hook. Si Greenfeld was in Red Hook, and all [...] 8062 68 7_Amazing0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com28_Wed, 9 Apr 2003 10:03:21 EDT565_US-ASCII I am sitting in my home, at 6:45 AM, watching Iraqi men and boys climbing the statue of Saddam Hussein in the middle of Baghdad throw a rope around its neck and hammering the base with a sledgehammer. American tanks and Marines are moving around along with a building peaceful crowd. Just last night, we were talking about how stupid we were to declare him dead when there is a great possibility that even after that second bombing in Al Mansour, the creep probably escaped and may be in Syria in Lakakteria at a seaside hotel which has been "rented" [...] 8131 59 11_Re: Amazing13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il30_Wed, 9 Apr 2003 17:31:42 +0200215_iso-8859-1 Good Morning Suzie!

Yes, there's nothing quite like watching history live and in color. It's all rather like the fall of the Berlin Wall.

Kol Hakavod to the American armed forces.

Jon 8191 70 18_JLC Labor Haggadah16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Wed, 09 Apr 2003 11:01:50 -0400618_us-ascii JLC Labor Hagaddahs available

Looking to incorporate pieces of Jewish Labor and Civil Rights history into your Passover Seder this year?

The Jewish Labor Committee has a good resource for you. The 32-page Jewish Labor Committee Passover Haggadah includes all of the traditional sections of the Seder - but there's more. In the JLC Labor Haggadah, you'll find readings by famous trade union and civil rights activists, including Fredrick Douglass, David Dubinsky and Cesar Chavez, as well as a range of theologians writing on workers' rights, such as Na'amah Kelman and Bishop Desmond Tutu. [...] 8262 308 63_How neoconservatives conquered Washington -- and launched a war11_Phil Safier17_psafier@elixa.com31_Wed, 09 Apr 2003 09:49:54 -0600338_iso-8859-1 Dearest Chauvinistic Chevre,

At this time of tremendous pride in our victory over evil Muslims, we need to salute the brave thinkers who engineered this triumph of democracy. Hopefully the work of these patriotic Jews will encourage the Christiban to go easy on us when the final day of reckoning inevitably comes. [...] 8571 62 11_Re: Amazing14_Holtzer Family20_carmdave@urim.org.il30_Wed, 9 Apr 2003 19:04:22 +0200352_iso-8859-1 I also was watching the Iraqi people scaling the Saddam statue and put a rope around his neck. A very satisfying scene indeed. Notice that the Marines were walking around and the Iraqi's were asking to have their pictures taken with them? Now, that is really a scene that no one could have imagined seeing just a couple months ago..... [...] 8634 87 22_Re: return of the belt7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Wed, 09 Apr 2003 19:05:16 +0200439_iso-8859-1 the kids in Tel Ari in 1963, the first year it was a camp, were Kmbet bonim -- teenagers, not less than probably 15 or 16 years of age. Maybe Aharon Sharif would know, as he was the rosh machaneh, or he could give you the names of some of the madrichim who would possibly know. pearl ----- Original Message ----- From: R.E. Feinburg To: habonet@shamash.org Sent: Monday, April 07, 2003 11:58 PM Subject: return of the belt [...] 8722 29 18_Jewish Conspiracy?11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com30_Wed, 9 Apr 2003 09:39:23 -0700463_iso-8859-1 It is amazing to me still, that at one of the most pivotal moments in history, (the toppling of the central statue of Saddam Hussein in the middle of Baghdad) someone could, or would, link it with a Jewish conspiracy- or should I just go ahead and write "The Jewish Conspiracy"?. In the last year or so, we have been witnesses to the most mind-bogglingly convoluted interpretations of events. Perhaps there really isn't a bottom to which to sink. [...] 8752 1204 41_FW: Please Act Now this is a must read!!!11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com30_Wed, 9 Apr 2003 09:41:29 -0700633_iso-8859-1 I thought this was important enough to pass along

Steve



-----Original Message----- From: Stanley J. Klein [mailto:popeye337@hotmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2003 9:13 AM To: jsplan@ez2.net; hemenite@aol.com; harrismike@worldnet.att.net; Patti Towel; richarnow@aol.com; rich plante; wop44sc@aol.com; ggbelzer@juno.com; C-21DINAH@msn.com; Steve Klein Subject: Fw: Please Act Now this is a must read!!!







-------Original Message-------

From: Harry Gluckman Date: Wednesday, April 09, 2003 08:47:35 AM To: hwgluckman@zapcom.net Subject: Fw: Please Act Now [...] 9957 25 22_Re: Jewish Conspiracy?12_David Fleiss20_dfleiss@pipeline.com36_Wed, 9 Apr 2003 12:53:53 -0400 (EDT)307_us-ascii As most of you know, there isn't much about which Steve and I agree. But I, too, must register my disgust with all the talk of a Jewish cabal controlling American foreign policy.

It's bad enough when Pat Buchanan spouts this bullsh*t, but what is the point of forwarding it to Habonet? [...] 9983 61 41_FW: Please Act Now this is a must read!!!12_Stopak, Noam20_NStopak@orionsci.com30_Wed, 9 Apr 2003 12:54:12 -0400467_iso-8859-1 While I happen to agree with Steve regarding "The Conspiracy" I find it ironic that this followed so closely on the heels of his message condemning the idea that there is influence being applied to US foreign policy.

Next year in Damascus,

Noam

-----Original Message----- From: Steve Klein [mailto:kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2003 12:41 PM To: Habonet Subject: FW: Please Act Now this is a must read!!! [...] 10045 533 68_FW: Pipes & Harris in NYPost on "Columbia [University] vs. America"]11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com30_Wed, 9 Apr 2003 09:59:58 -0700421_iso-8859-1 Well worth forwarding. It's probably also worth a few seconds of our time to e-mail Columbia U.

Steve



-----Original Message----- From: marcia plager [mailto:mplager@socal.rr.com] Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2003 8:37 PM To: Elly Krapek; Doug and Renee Goldenberg-Schwartz; Joyce Kishineff; Baruch Eichenbaum Subject: Fw: Pipes & Harris in NYPost on "Columbia [University] vs. America"] [...] 10579 72 8_shopping16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Wed, 09 Apr 2003 13:09:10 -0400603_us-ascii This item was published today on Israeline, the internet news service of Israel's New York consulate.

> **Azrieli Planning Largest Mall in Israel > > Entrepreneur and mall owner David Azrieli is planning to build the largest shopping mall in Israel, > called the "Mall of Israel," GLOBES reported. The project, still in the development stage, will > cost an estimated $250 million. The new mall will include features copied from the largest U.S. > shopping mall - the Mall of America - located in Minneapolis. The Mall of Israel will have a cinema > complex, an ice-skating rink, a [...] 10652 29 68_FW: Pipes & Harris in NYPost on "Columbia [University] vs. America"]12_David Fleiss20_dfleiss@pipeline.com36_Wed, 9 Apr 2003 13:21:47 -0400 (EDT)480_us-ascii Steve,

We have a curious tradition called "academic freedom." At its heart is the idea that professors are allowed to speak their minds without fear of recrimination.

I'm not sure what effect you think a few (or even a few million) e-mail messages to Columbia University will have. I fully expect that they will respond that Prof. De Genova "does not in any way represent" the university's views. Which is just what any university would and should do. [...] 10682 27 67_Re: How neoconservatives conquered Washington -- and launched a war0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com31_Wed, 09 Apr 2003 13:14:51 -0400430_iso-8859-1 Dear Phil

If we are looking for Jews to blame for the neoconservative trends in American please Phil look in the mirror. You were one of the people running around saying there was no difference as beetween George Bush and Al Gore. You helped Bush get elected. Therefore there is no difference between Phil Safier and George Bush. And Wolfowitz may be neo conservative and crazy but at least he is not rude. [...] 10710 162 67_Re: How neoconservatives conquered Washington -- and launched a war13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il30_Wed, 9 Apr 2003 20:33:12 +0200688_iso-8859-1 Michael Lind has made similar arguments before. In a recent article ( http://www.theglobalist.com/DBWeb/StoryId.aspx?StoryId=3066 ) he stated that American foreign policy had been hijacked in the 1930's by Central European immigrants, such as Kissinger and Brzezinski, who moved the traditional "American School" policy to one of Bismarkian and Metternichian Realpolitik.

Sneaky devils those Jews and Central Europeans! Somehow they keep hoodwinking the good, well-meaning, but naive body of the American people. It takes a mighty conspiracy (and a lot more than box cutters) to hijack the foreign policy of a superpower but, hey, if we Jews don't do it, who will? [...] 10873 140 17_Mother knows best13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il30_Wed, 9 Apr 2003 20:52:08 +0200431_windows-1255 From the Omaha World-Herald:





Son calls mom in Nebraska from Saddam's bathroom

BY JOSIE LOZA





WORLD-HERALD STAFF WRITER It was only a few minutes after U.S. forces seized one of Saddam Hussein's palaces in Baghdad on Monday when Gloria Presnell of Grand Island received a phone call from her son Mike.

"I'm always worried when the phone rings," she said. [...] 11014 86 20_verse for the moment13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il30_Wed, 9 Apr 2003 22:54:30 +0200589_windows-1255 Watching the statue fall...

"I met a traveller from an antique land Who said: 'Two vast and trunkless legs of stone Stand in the desert. Near them, on the sand, Half sunk, a shattered visage lies, whose frown, And wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold command, Tell that its sculptor well those passions read Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things, The hand that mocked them and the heart that fed. And on the pedestal these words appear -- "My name is Ozymandias, king of kings: Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!" Nothing beside remains. Round the [...] 11101 54 22_Re: return of the belt13_R.E. Feinburg20_refeinburg@yahoo.com36_Wed, 9 Apr 2003 18:00:00 -0700 (PDT)585_us-ascii

i am pretty sure it was a younger kid so i guess it was tel ari 2. any suggestions for follow up on that? thanks Skolnik wrote:the kids in Tel Ari in 1963, the first year it was a camp, were Kmbet bonim -- teenagers, not less than probably 15 or 16 years of age. Maybe Aharon Sharif would know, as he was the rosh machaneh, or he could give you the names of some of the madrichim who would possibly know. pearl----- Original Message ----- From: R.E. Feinburg To: habonet@shamash.org Sent: Monday, April 07, 2003 11:58 PMSubject: return [...] 11156 59 21_Re:return of the belt13_R.E. Feinburg20_refeinburg@yahoo.com36_Wed, 9 Apr 2003 18:15:00 -0700 (PDT)571_us-ascii

You signed this "Pearl". Were you once known as Pearl Pearlson? Skolnik wrote:I was on the national executive when we were asked to name the new Bonim Camp in Hunter. I suggested "Tel Ari" after Ari Lashner, who was killed by a sniper in Kfar Blum, I believe before 1948. The name was accepted by the Hanhala. I did not know that there was a previous camp by that name elsewhere. Ahron Sharif was the rosh machaneh that first summer, in 1963, and I was on the staff whose names I no longer recall. We were located next to [...] 11216 76 67_Re: How neoconservatives conquered Washington -- and launched a war13_richard smith19_rdsmith1957@msn.com30_Wed, 9 Apr 2003 21:29:24 -0400559_iso-8859-1 I agree with Jon almost completely. The non-neocons in the Republican party and on the right, Robert Novak and Pat Buchanan are neo-isolationists and, at the very least, border line anti-Semites. Both are against the war in Iraq and both are very anti-Israel.

However, Jon's comment about Clinton's foreign policy, especially the "pointless" intervention in Kosovo comment, needs to be explained. Just because we didn't intervene when we should have in Rwanda doesn't mean we shouldn't have in Kosovo. If I am not mistaken, didn't we force a 11293 53 7_Neocons13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Wed, 09 Apr 2003 21:39:08 -0400565_us-ascii Dear Phil,

This article has grains of truth but it also makes mountains out of some common place molehills and implies some connections that don't exist.

An example of a mountain from a molehill is Gen Garner being taken to Israel by JINSA. In the 80's and 90's it was hard to find a general, senator, congressperson, governor or mayor of a major city who has not been taken to Israel by UJC or JINSA. Nearly every congressperson was taken to the Golan to look down on the population centers of Israel, to the Christian holy places,etc. [...] 11347 263 22_RE: return of the belt10_M. Skolnik20_emskol@bellsouth.net30_Wed, 9 Apr 2003 21:46:31 -0400538_us-ascii Okay, I just had to pull out the old photos....I have a camp photo of Tel-Ari Hunter in 1963 and one from 1964. The Tel-Ari the year before in 1962 was in Fleishmans, NY - the summer we had a big drought. In 1961 I was an Amel in Na'aleh, in 1962 I was an Amel in Tel-Ari Fleishmans, in 1963 I was a choter in Tel-Ari Hunter, and in 1964 I was a Choter in Tel-Ari Hunter. I can clearly make out the pictures of Beth Troy, Abby Schechter, Susie Schottenfeld, Regina Clare, Ted Loewenthal, David Feingberg, Maishie Beanstock, [...] 11611 69 11_Re: Neocons13_richard smith19_rdsmith1957@msn.com30_Wed, 9 Apr 2003 23:38:44 -0400433_iso-8859-1 The original neo-cons, Irving Crystal being the archetype, if not the actual founder, were leftists who saw the faults in the Soviet Union and turned extremely anti-communist. I would suggest that the neo-cons you have met, Judy, were probably second generation neo-cons, like Crystal's son, whose first name escapes me now (Bill?). Many of these folks were indeed red-diaper babies who, when exposed to the fallacy of the 11681 153 22_RE: return of the belt12_Stopak, Noam20_NStopak@orionsci.com31_Thu, 10 Apr 2003 06:55:02 -0400602_iso-8859-1 Machaneh Bonim yod gimel was the summer of 1975, so by my count the first was 1963?

Why are you interested in returning the belt after 40 years?

-----Original Message----- From: M. Skolnik [mailto:emskol@bellsouth.net] Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2003 9:47 PM To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: RE: return of the belt



Okay, I just had to pull out the old photos....I have a camp photo of Tel-Ari Hunter in 1963 and one from 1964. The Tel-Ari the year before in 1962 was in Fleishmans, NY - the summer we had a big drought. In 1961 I was an Amel in Na'aleh, in [...] 11835 40 11_Re: Neocons13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Thu, 10 Apr 2003 07:21:00 -0400 11876 233 22_RE: return of the belt10_M. Skolnik20_emskol@bellsouth.net31_Thu, 10 Apr 2003 07:36:26 -0400439_us-ascii But in 1963 and 1964, Tel-Ari Hunter was not ONLY MB as it was later, it was a full range Habonim camp.

-----Original Message----- From: owner-habonet@shamash.org [mailto:owner-habonet@shamash.org] On Behalf Of Stopak, Noam Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2003 6:55 AM To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: RE: return of the belt



Machaneh Bonim yod gimel was the summer of 1975, so by my count the first was 1963? [...] 12110 104 11_RE: Neocons12_Stopak, Noam20_NStopak@orionsci.com31_Thu, 10 Apr 2003 09:08:57 -0400698_iso-8859-1 Oy! First Susan Sarandon, then Mel Gibson, now Billy Crystal? No wonder I never get out to the movies anymore! :-) :-) :-)

I believe you mean William Kristol of the Weekly Standard?

Noam

-----Original Message----- From: richard smith [mailto:rdsmith1957@msn.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2003 11:39 PM To: habonet Subject: Re: Neocons



The original neo-cons, Irving Crystal being the archetype, if not the actual founder, were leftists who saw the faults in the Soviet Union and turned extremely anti-communist. I would suggest that the neo-cons you have met, Judy, were probably second generation neo-cons, like Crystal's son, whose first name [...] 12215 110 11_Re: Neocons11_Jack Porter23_jacknusan@earthlink.net31_Thu, 10 Apr 2003 11:45:01 -0700577_US-ASCII on 4/9/03 8:38 PM, richard smith at rdsmith1957@msn.com wrote:

The original neo-cons, Irving Crystal being the archetype, if not the actual founder, were leftists who saw the faults in the Soviet Union and turned extremely anti-communist. I would suggest that the neo-cons you have met, Judy, were probably second generation neo-cons, like Crystal's son, whose first name escapes me now (Bill?). Many of these folks were indeed red-diaper babies who, when exposed to the fallacy of the "worker's paradise" in the USSR became to most fervent cold-warriors. [...] 12326 40 22_RE: return of the belt13_R.E. Feinburg20_refeinburg@yahoo.com37_Thu, 10 Apr 2003 09:59:11 -0700 (PDT)540_us-ascii

I had brought several attractive, unique leather belts to camp for friends. I had one left over because someone i thought would be there did not come. The younger kid wanted the honor and glory of the belt I had brought so that he could be a member of a prestigious older group. He suggested the exchange and I accepted. Had i been older, I would have been wise enough to recognize that the nazi belt was not his to trade, it was a family heirloom. Second, the trades were not of equal value, that is, the belt i gave [...] 12367 185 22_Re: return of the belt7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Thu, 10 Apr 2003 18:26:50 +0200580_ISO-8859-1 Messageokay, I also remember well, because I was a madricha there, and went on aliya immediately after camp, so wasn't in America after 1963. Perhaps, Tel Ari was the name given to the whole camp, and not just to the section where the KMBet were. That would solve the differences of "fact" we have here. Nechama Pearlson is my sister, and I recall that my other sister Rachele Pearlson, was also there that summer of 1963. All the best, shabbat shalom u'm'vorach to you all and a Kosher and freiliche Pesach to one and all (why not?)! pearl pearlson-skolnik ----- [...] 12553 157 21_Re:return of the belt7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Thu, 10 Apr 2003 19:14:44 +0200563_ISO-8859-1 shalom, Yes, my name was Pearl Pearlson. My sisters Penina, Sharon, Nechama, Rachele, and Devora were also in Habonim. Penina and Rachele went on Machon, I on Workshop. Devora went straight to Hebrew U after highschool, and Sharon, 6 feet tall, married on her 18th birthday the first guy she met who was taller than she was. (As a result 5 of their six children, including the girls, are all between 6 feet and 6 feet 5 inches tall. There is a lesson to be learned there.) Sharon lives on the Golan, Penina, Devora and I are in Jerusalem, Rachele [...] 12711 496 36_An Arab journalist on the Arab media13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il31_Fri, 11 Apr 2003 11:26:09 +0200510_windows-1255 This is from MEMRI's web site ( http://www.memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=countries&Area=saudiarabia&ID=SP49103 ) Interesting stuff. Jon

Editor of the London Arabic Daily Al-Sharq Al-Awsat Criticizes the Arab Media's War Coverage

In a series of three articles the editor-in-chief of the London-based Saudi daily Al-Sharq Al-Awsat, Abd Al-Rahman Al-Rashed, criticized the Arab media coverage of the war.[1]The following are excerpt from the articles: 'Slow Down, Media of 1967' [...] 13208 56 68_RE: Pipes & Harris in NYPost on "Columbia [University] vs. America"]11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Fri, 11 Apr 2003 09:37:54 -0700470_US-ASCII Dear David

Thank you for your response. I didn't mean to write to shut off De Genova's right to speak, or to get rid of him. I wrote what I did to encourage condemnation of his abhorrant ideas. In my mind, it is not enough to give a limp response to blatant evil. Speech that preaches raw hatred and harm is evil. "We don't really agree with......" is not a response. It is an abdication. I only call upon people of good will to raise their voices. [...] 13265 29 16_Defining moments11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Fri, 11 Apr 2003 09:41:41 -0700506_iso-8859-1 Dear Judy and Jack

The term "Neocon" is taking on a life of its own. Who knows, I might even be one! Could you (or anyone else out there) help refine and define the warp and nature of this beast?

Thanks

Steve

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 13295 345 65_FW: France is Not a Western Country Anymore.......By Guy Milliere11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Fri, 11 Apr 2003 09:44:42 -0700689_iso-8859-1 Chilling- and certainly worth a read.

Steve



-----Original Message----- From: Harry Gluckman [mailto:hwgluckman@zapcom.net] Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2003 9:06 PM To: hwgluckman@zapcom.net Subject: France is Not a Western Country Anymore.......By Guy Milliere



France is Not a Western Country Anymore By Guy Milliere FrontPageMagazine.com | March 31, 2003

---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----



French-bashing is everywhere in the American media. I am French, and I must say if Americans knew completely what's happening in France, the French-bashing would be far harsher. [...] 13641 1286 28_FW: First admendment rights?11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Fri, 11 Apr 2003 10:03:40 -0700587_UTF-8 This really speaks to my heart. Generations of Arab schoolchildren in the Middle East have been raised on the poison that is referenced in this article. Perhaps there was nothing we could do in most of the vast area. But we certainly could have forbidden the poison that was used for standard texts in the "Palestinian" textbooks. Example: A mathematics exercise: If you kill three Jews out of ten, how many are left? (Presumably, the understood idea is to finish with "....left to eliminate"). This is not free speech or academic freedom. It is the worst form of advocacy to [...] 14928 295 35_FW: : Starbucks Pulls Out of Israel11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Fri, 11 Apr 2003 10:07:22 -0700444_iso-8859-1 I don't know if this old news, or a repeat. I apologise for any duplication, if any,

Steve



-----Original Message----- From: marcia plager [mailto:mplager@socal.rr.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2003 8:18 PM To: Avravraham and Malka Czyzyk; Eileen Kelmanson; Bob and Barbara Fruitman; Israel and Marlene Zakai; Barry Szemere; Carol Nalin; Geoff and Linda Remes Subject: Fw: : Starbucks Pulls Out of Israel [...] 15224 83 21_Re:return of the belt13_R.E. Feinburg20_refeinburg@yahoo.com37_Fri, 11 Apr 2003 18:15:18 -0700 (PDT)593_us-ascii perfect, i never met a pearlson girl i wasnt in love with.

Skolnik wrote:shalom,Yes, my name was Pearl Pearlson. My sisters Penina, Sharon, Nechama, Rachele, and Devora were also in Habonim. Penina and Rachele went on Machon, I on Workshop. Devora went straight to Hebrew U after highschool, and Sharon, 6 feet tall, married on her 18th birthday the first guy she met who was taller than she was. (As a result 5 of their six children, including the girls, are all between 6 feet and 6 feet 5 inches tall. There is a lesson to be learned there.) [...] 15308 61 39_Re: FW: : Starbucks Pulls Out of Israel0_14_KBob24@aol.com29_Fri, 11 Apr 2003 21:32:49 EDT455_US-ASCII In a message dated 4/11/2003 1:02:59 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com writes:

> Starbucks Coffee. Spread the word on this. There are some weak dribble > excuses in the article, but nothing real. They are stopping business > relations with Israel.

I have heard they are pulling out for business reasons. Can anyone provide any proof on this claim that the closure of Israeli stores is politically motivated. [...] 15370 27 9_Starbucks13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Fri, 11 Apr 2003 22:36:42 -0400507_us-ascii Dear Steve, The Israelis I know were very proud that Starbucks hadn't beaten out the local competition as it did elsewhere. The Haaretz article on the closing didn't hint at political motivations. Shabbat Shalom, Judy Gelman



------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 15398 81 39_Re: FW: : Starbucks Pulls Out of Israel0_18_Brianscoop@aol.com29_Sat, 12 Apr 2003 09:24:14 EDT553_US-ASCII In a message dated 4/11/03 9:33:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time, KBob24@aol.com writes:

> In a message dated 4/11/2003 1:02:59 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com writes: > > >> Starbucks Coffee. Spread the word on this. There are some weak dribble >> excuses in the article, but nothing real. They are stopping business >> relations with Israel. > > I have heard they are pulling out for business reasons. Can anyone provide > any proof on this claim that the closure of Israeli stores is politically > motivated. > [...] 15480 148 39_Re: FW: : Starbucks Pulls Out of Israel14_aviva grosbard18_deang@bezeqint.net31_Sat, 12 Apr 2003 16:34:40 +0200547_iso-8859-1 You obviously dont live here and haven't visited in a while. We have no reason to have over-priced snob coffee (Starbucks) here because we already have so many excellent coffee shops-I admit the coffee is Italian but still excellent. And friendly people sit outside and drink it-watched over by guards:( THAT (not the coffee ) is the downside. Shabbat Shalom-Aviva ----- Original Message ----- From: Brianscoop@aol.com To: habonet@shamash.org Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2003 3:24 PM Subject: Re: FW: : Starbucks Pulls Out of Israel [...] 15629 50 39_Re: FW: : Starbucks Pulls Out of Israel0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Sat, 12 Apr 2003 10:50:22 EDT586_US-ASCII I also read in Ha'aretz that the problem was NOT political, but managerial- that Starbucks could not compete for the business since Israel already had wonderful coffee cafes of its own, and that the business did not attempt to adjust to local tastes- and that on countries where they had insisted on keeping their "American" profile without adjusting to local tastes, they have failed ( they are also pulling out of some other countries- which were listed in the article-) so it was NOT a politically motivated decision- but rather a financial one based on bad management.- sue 15680 95 39_Re: FW: : Starbucks Pulls Out of Israel0_18_Brianscoop@aol.com29_Sat, 12 Apr 2003 15:54:31 EDT486_US-ASCII In a message dated 4/12/03 9:31:39 AM Eastern Daylight Time, deang@bezeqint.net writes:

> You obviously dont live here and haven't visited in a while. We have no > reason to have over-priced snob coffee (Starbucks) here because we already > have so many excellent coffee shops-I admit the coffee is Italian but still > excellent. And friendly people sit outside and drink it-watched over by > guards:( THAT (not the coffee ) is the downside. Shabbat Shalom-Aviva > [...] 15776 161 39_Re: FW: : Starbucks Pulls Out of Israel14_aviva grosbard18_deang@bezeqint.net31_Sat, 12 Apr 2003 23:05:26 +0200473_iso-8859-1 Oy -sorry if I got defensive-happens sometimes-I am really a gentle person by nature-must be the "gingit" in me flaring up. Wasn't fair to attack you-hell I don't even know you! Drop in next time you come for a visit? Will make you a cup of good coffee-any kind you want-a promise-ok? Aviva ----- Original Message ----- From: Brianscoop@aol.com To: habonet@shamash.org Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2003 9:54 PM Subject: Re: FW: : Starbucks Pulls Out of Israel [...] 15938 73 39_Re: FW: : Starbucks Pulls Out of Israel0_18_Brianscoop@aol.com29_Sat, 12 Apr 2003 16:44:15 EDT410_US-ASCII In a message dated 4/12/03 4:02:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time, deang@bezeqint.net writes:

> Oy -sorry if I got defensive-happens sometimes-I am really a gentle person > by nature-must be the "gingit" in me flaring up. Wasn't fair to attack > you-hell I don't even know you! Drop in next time you come for a visit? > Will make you a cup of good coffee-any kind you want-a promise-ok? Aviva > [...] 16012 218 21_israeli arab politics13_Joel Winograd15_mail@jelaco.com31_Sat, 12 Apr 2003 17:15:03 -0500392_ISO-8859-1 I wonder what people think of this piece by Azmi Bishara, in Al Ahram this week. It certainly seems difficult to square with coexistence.

Joel Winograd

____________ Al-Ahram Weekly Online 10 -16 April 2003 Issue No. 633 Opinion Current issue Previous issue Site map Published in Cairo by AL-AHRAM established in 1875 Text menu Comment Recommend Printer-friendly [...] 16231 27 24_Re: the Belt and Tel Ari0_15_RONOREN@aol.com29_Sun, 13 Apr 2003 02:39:45 EDT579_US-ASCII Regarding the discussion on Tel Ari-- Does anyone else besides me think it's pretty sad that we don't know our own history? We're discussing something that happened a scant 40 years ago. Are we not interested enough to compile an accurate history?

Ron Orenstein ersatz West Coast Habonim Archivist

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 16259 51 12_AZMI BASHARA14_Martin Goodman26_martinjgoodman@hotmail.com31_Sun, 13 Apr 2003 12:07:53 +0000557_- In Habonet Digest 2555, Joel Winograd asks, "" I wonder what people think of this piece by Azmi Bishara, in Al Ahram this week. It certainly seems difficult to square with coexistence. ""

Evaluating M.K. Bashara is a little bit like deciding whether the chicken or the egg came first. Bashara is peeved that the Knesset removed his parliamentary immunity in order to try him for statements that characterized actions of Hizbollah against Israel as acts of liberation. [The charges against Bashara were recently dismissed by an Israeli court.] [...] 16311 52 7_Reality4_Stan17_stan@inter.net.il31_Sun, 13 Apr 2003 17:18:52 +0200193_iso-8859-1 I do not think that the WASHINGTON POST opposes the idea of an Arab country making peace with Israel/ Rather the Post is facing reality. Most of the Arab world will not accept Israel 16364 63 25_RE: israeli arab politics12_Stopak, Noam20_NStopak@orionsci.com31_Sun, 13 Apr 2003 14:58:44 -0400334_iso-8859-1 Hi Joel,

Yes, certainly difficult to square with coexistence. Not sure how he squares it with "the recognition of the Jewishness of Israel [as a] condition for joining the Knesset, a price one has to pay, willy-nilly, for the privilege of being a Knesset member." His remarks seem to clearly reject his notion. [...] 16428 498 11_Choose Life12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Sun, 13 Apr 2003 23:01:41 +0200619_iso-8859-1 Haverim/ot Here it is three nights before the Seder and all through the house haggadot are strewn in various stages of reworking, argument and collation. So I'm taking a breather to send a Pesach card to all. It is somewhat extended.

Therefore Choose Life Deuteronomy 30, 19.



Not to put too fine a reductionist point on it, there are affinities between Dionysus and Thanatos of the Greeks; and closer to home, Tammuz and Re Atum of Babylonia and Egypt who personified annual cycles of life and dying in the antiquity of other cultures and between Judaic culture. Sloughing off the [...] 16927 30 14_Where are you?0_16_susiem6@juno.com31_Sat, 12 Apr 2003 09:33:55 -0700544_- I haven't received any messages in the recent weeks.

Is the list serve still functioning?

Sue Mackson

________________________________________________________________ Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 16958 37 12_Chag Sameach0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Sun, 13 Apr 2003 20:24:20 EDT127_US-ASCII In these weird times, I wish to all a chag sameach...Freedom is certainly on everyone's minds- not only ours- sue(sie) 16996 72 39_Re: FW: : Starbucks Pulls Out of Israel0_15_DebALev@aol.com29_Sun, 13 Apr 2003 20:59:57 EDT556_US-ASCII In a message dated 4/11/2003 9:33:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time, KBob24@aol.com writes:

> I have heard they are pulling out for business reasons. Can anyone provide > any proof on this claim that the closure of Israeli stores is politically > motivated.

I too had heard that it was for business reasons only; apparently there are already many coffee places in Israel that already have a local following, and Starbucks just couldn't compete. And maybe, just maybr, Israelis don't want to pay such a high price for a cup of coffee. [...] 17069 234 35_Landsberg article re: broken dreams0_15_DebALev@aol.com29_Sun, 13 Apr 2003 21:38:27 EDT397_ISO-8859-1 ACTIVISTS MARK PASSOVER WITH HEAVY HEARTS MICHELE LANDSBERG TORONTO STAR APRIL 12 '03 PG. L1



It's never been harder to prepare for Passover, once my favourite Jewish holiday of the year. It's a festival of freedom, of a nation-building journey from slavery in Egypt to the moment when we as a people accepted the rule of law before we could enter the Promised Land. [...] 17304 24 9_Starbucks16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Mon, 14 Apr 2003 00:57:51 -0400475_us-ascii Starbucks closed down its Israel operations because it was a money loser. Starbucks doesn't adapt its marketing to local business cultures and in the case of Israel, that means coffee culture.



------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 17329 41 15_Re: Choose Life14_Martin Goodman26_martinjgoodman@hotmail.com31_Mon, 14 Apr 2003 14:26:21 +0000318_- 14 April 2003

Shalom Amnon:

In your Pesach drash (not unlike Shabbat HaGadol Drashim of old), you write that "" ... in Jewish tradition, the religious year begins in the spring month of Nissan or Abib, while the civil year (as in reigns of kings or in contracts) begins in the fall, in Tishri. "" [...] 17371 219 22_[Fwd: SADDAM IS ALIVE]13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Mon, 14 Apr 2003 12:21:40 -0400 17591 30 39_Re: FW: : Starbucks Pulls Out of Israel0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Mon, 14 Apr 2003 13:01:20 EDT550_US-ASCII My recollection of coffee in Israel (as opposed to Israeli coffee) dates back to 1961, when we on Workshop would add a few drops of boiling water to a spoon of instant, (and sugar) and then stir frantically for minutes until a Moroccan tan syrup formed in the cup. Boiling water added to the syrup and made a surpassing (to our minds and tastes) cup of stuff. Praise be to the discoverer of "the Method." My other experience was a Turkish brew of powdered real coffee and sugar poured into a tiny cup and sipped ever so gingerly as the [...] 17622 47 16_Re: AZMI BASHARA0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Mon, 14 Apr 2003 13:33:33 EDT646_US-ASCII Marty, Just so you heard it here... again. There will be no real, lasting peace with the former Arab residents of Israel (including the unannexed territories) unless there is territorial participation and economic assistance by neighboring Arab countries to both Arabs and Jews. there must be recognition of the dislocation of Jews from Arab countries and a Palestinian border that incorporates more than territory contributed by Israel. Like the formation of Israel, the formation of Palestine must come with the participation and agreement of a clear majority of the Arab countries and at some cost (investment) as well. Who will [...] 17670 42 11_Re: Reality0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Mon, 14 Apr 2003 13:46:07 EDT596_US-ASCII Stan,

I agree and add until the Arab regimes and their religio-political fantasy of global supremacy are totally crushed. Islamic unquestionable truth and unchanging- immutable completeness, Arab nationalism, and the deep fracture in the Arab psyche that comes from the disconnect between the first of these and the loss of empire and political prominence, are not matters that will be resolved by peace agreements with Israel, they must be resolved by a radical redefining of Islamic doctrine, or by crushing military defeat. Every thing else is merely delay and confusion. [...] 17713 28 15_Re: Choose Life0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Mon, 14 Apr 2003 13:56:19 EDT437_US-ASCII Doesn't sound as though we had too much interest in looking skyward. No doubt the consequence of a lunar calendar. Yet, the modern Jewish calendar -- a civil notion? -- takes great pains to rationalize the differences between lunar and solar cycles. You know of course that if the Goyim had as many New Year's as the Jews, we'd be in charge of the world (or at least the distilleries) 'cause they'd be shiker all the time. [...] 17742 186 26_Re: [Fwd: SADDAM IS ALIVE]13_R.E. Feinburg20_refeinburg@yahoo.com37_Mon, 14 Apr 2003 11:54:06 -0700 (PDT)638_us-ascii tariq azziz said as much a couple of weeks ago:"you will be chasing sheepherds..." re Iran. Iran will not not give him shelter. however, he could make his way thru iran. the Iranians have tried to close their borders but that is impossible, as smugglers can attest.

Judith Gelman wrote:I have no idea how realistic this is but I thought some of you might enjoy it. If not true, it is an interesting fantasy. Hag Samayach- JuDy Gelman ***CAVEAT LECTOR*** ========================================== SADDAM IS ALIVE by Gordon Thomas* Saddam Hussein is alive. He has washed out the expensive black dye [...] 17929 40 27_TIME FOR THE RIGHT ROAD MAP11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org31_Mon, 14 Apr 2003 14:19:07 -0500633_us-ascii TIME FOR THE RIGHT ROAD MAP by DR. ROBERT O. FREEDMAN





As the war in Iraq draws to a close, there are growing pressures on the Bush Administration to move ahead with the "Road Map" which lays out the path to an Israeli-Palestinian peace. These pressures come from America's Arab allies, especially Egypt, Jordan and Saudi Arabia, whose governments were shaken by the war, as well as from Britain, the major US ally in the Iraqi war. Opposition to the Road Map comes from right-wing circles in Israel, especially coalition members Mafdal(The National Religious Party) and the National Union Party, [...] 17970 202 15_Beit Berl, etc.15_Leo Diesendruck18_leodie@isdn.net.il31_Tue, 15 Apr 2003 16:14:42 +0200562_US-ASCII The intifada has come to Beit Berl ! I haven't found this in the US media (accessing various newspapers etc. via the internet) but in Israel it made news. An explosives package with a cell-phone trigger was found and dismantled at Beit Berl College which is quite close to the border, with Kalkilya on the other side. As the head of Beit Berl College for many years I can only be sad about this since during the time I was there relations between Jews and Arabs, both students and faculty, were perfectly OK. The Arab Teachers Seminary was part of [...] 18173 60 31_A Festive Word From the Sponsor0_14_KBob24@aol.com29_Tue, 15 Apr 2003 11:06:00 EDT356_US-ASCII Haboneters:

On behalf of the Habonim Dror Foundation, the organization that brings you Habonet, I want to wish you all a happy, healthy and meaningful Pesach.

I will also take this opportunity to thank our moderator, Brian Cooper, for all he does. It is mostly behind the scenes and out of sight, but it is greatly appreciated. [...] 18234 95 35_Re: A Festive Word From the Sponsor13_richard smith19_rdsmith1957@msn.com31_Tue, 15 Apr 2003 12:32:34 -0400354_iso-8859-1

----- Original Message ----- From: KBob24@aol.com To: habonet@shamash.org Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2003 11:06 AM Subject: A Festive Word From the Sponsor

I will also take this opportunity to thank our moderator, Brian Cooper, for all he does. It is mostly behind the scenes and out of sight, but it is greatly appreciated. [...] 18330 22 19_Re: Beit Berl, etc.0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com31_Tue, 15 Apr 2003 13:18:08 -0400449_iso-8859-1 I saw that in Haaretz online the other day--but it got no mention iin the American press- probably because it didn't blow up and cause loss of life. You know the press works that way, but it is indeed terrible that someone should feel it necessary to plant a bomb ANYWHERE... Hopefully, this stuff will dwindle. I am just a little nervous about Pesach....at any rate, Chag Sameach and a SAFE chage to all our chevre in Israel- susie [...] 18353 79 5_mommy13_richard smith19_rdsmith1957@msn.com31_Tue, 15 Apr 2003 15:29:28 -0400468_iso-8859-1 It has come to my attention that my comment about our communal mommy, Brian Cooper Esq., was perceived as nasty. It was not meant that way.

I consider Cooper a good friend of mine, an ex-roommate (for two-years) and an altogether nice guy (especially considering his birth defect-being Canadian). If my comment has caused our fearless leader any grief, or offended him in any way, I apologize to him profusely. Forgive me Coop, I knew not what I did. 18433 133 9_RE: mommy12_Stopak, Noam20_NStopak@orionsci.com31_Tue, 15 Apr 2003 15:35:40 -0400310_iso-8859-1 Now he's really rolling on the floor laughing his a__ off :-)

Thanks for all your hard work Cooper - hey when did you pass the bar? Is Richard mocking you again?

At least Richard didn't send us a bunch of "mommy! mommy!" jokes which is what I feared when I read the subject line. [...] 18567 168 12_Ze-ev Schiff0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com29_Wed, 16 Apr 2003 09:33:31 EDT433_US-ASCII Between Zambish and Bush By Ze-ev Schiff

This past Sunday, the day on which Haaretz published an interview with Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, the premier met privately with one of the men mentioned in the article. The meeting was not held at the Prime Minister's Office, where everyone who enters and exits is registered, but rather at Sharon's Jerusalem home in the evening with no secretaries or aides present. [...] 18736 42 16_Forced Nostalgia0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com31_Wed, 16 Apr 2003 14:37:04 -0400585_iso-8859-1 The weather begins to get hot As familiar packages appear in the markets I remember the smells of my Bubbie's home At this time Knedlach, chicken soup, kugels The whispers in my ear from my father hinting at the Afikomen hiding-place Me in a dress-rare- Showing off singing the Four Questions Since I was the baby Third seder with chevre The kibbutz all dressed up Every year the dreams of Freedom, Jerusalem, Singing, music While the lemon-tree buds push onwards To blossom.... The whole world is waking up to songs >From Shir HaShirim.... As we remember and smile... [...] 18779 2245 56_Benny Morris on the Palestinians - from The New Republic13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il31_Wed, 16 Apr 2003 22:56:11 +0200692_utf-8

BLEAK CONCLUSIONS FROM THE HISTORY OF A PEOPLE. The Rejection by Benny Morris

Post date: 04.11.03 Issue date: 04.21.03 The Palestinian People: A History By Baruch Kimmerling and Joel S. Migdal (Harvard University Press, 608 pp., $45) Click here to purchase the book.





I.

What are the Palestinians after? There are two basic interpretations of their actions in the past three years, which began with their rejection of the Barak-Clinton compromise proposals and the launching of the ongoing terroristic and guerrilla assault on Israel known as the Aqsa Intifada. According to one view, the Palestinians are conducting a rebellion against [...] 21025 1804 27_FW: News Media- Bert Kinsey11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Wed, 16 Apr 2003 15:05:32 -0700310_iso-8859-1 I have not read the book, but agree with Mr. Kinsey's assessment of the follies of CNN. Couple this with the revelations of late (covering up Iraqi war crimes for the last eight years) it's a marvel that anyone would still support them (except for those whose world view CNN helps to sustain). [...] 22830 77 18_FW: Happy Passover11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Wed, 16 Apr 2003 15:08:29 -0700292_iso-8859-1

-----Original Message----- From: David Sherwin [mailto:dsherwin@socal.rr.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2003 12:01 PM To: Undisclosed-Recipient:; Subject: Happy Passover







Click Here: Happy Passover! Pass it On!







22908 67 21_Fwd: Forced Nostalgia0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Wed, 16 Apr 2003 19:16:36 EDT17_US-ASCII

22976 70 73_: "Relentless": Struggle for Peace in Israel- movie being shown in U.S.A.7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Sun, 20 Apr 2003 13:14:45 +0200674_iso-8859-1 HonestReporting "Relentless" offer Dear Subscriber,





What they're saying about "Relentless:" a.. "The "Relentless" screening for our AIPAC Ambassador Club was amazing. I am glad we had a chance to work together and look forward to many ventures in the future." - Dahlia Aronson, AIPAC Los Angeles Area Director b.. "...[the] film attempts to refute the common wisdom found in the media, on campus, and among intellectuals that paints Israel as the aggressor in the Middle East conflict." --The Jerusalem Post c.. "I've never seen such an energetic reaction to an Israel advocacy event." --Screening participant d.. "You've got a really [...] 23047 770 21_FW: CENTCOM_Cards.jpg11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Mon, 21 Apr 2003 08:21:15 -0700386_Windows-1252 It would be a shame to miss this. For those of you that do not open attachments- feel free not to open this one.

Steve

-----Original Message----- From: marcia plager [mailto:mplager@socal.rr.com] Sent: Saturday, April 19, 2003 9:29 PM To: Doug and Renee Goldenberg-Schwartz; Elly Krapek; Baruch Eichenbaum; Joyce Kishineff Subject: Fw: CENTCOM_Cards.jpg [...] 23818 205 19_FW: Middle east Map11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Mon, 21 Apr 2003 08:23:00 -0700449_iso-8859-1 Another site too much fun to miss. I did O.K. on it. Nothing to brag about.

Steve



-----Original Message----- From: Harry Gluckman [mailto:hwgluckman@zapcom.net] Sent: Saturday, April 19, 2003 7:21 PM To: hwgluckman@zapcom.net Subject: Fw: Middle east Map Importance: Low





Try your knowledge of the location of the countries in the Middle East.



Click and drag the countries. [...] 24024 973 46_FW: Action: Write CNN About They Didn't Report11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Mon, 21 Apr 2003 08:30:15 -0700696_iso-8859-1 I don't know if I have already sent this along to you. Apologies if so.

Steve



-----Original Message----- From: Nava [mailto:nava@socal.rr.com] Sent: Monday, April 14, 2003 7:18 PM To: Active4 Israel Subject: Action: Write CNN About They Didn't Report



Friends of Israel Shalom, Now that we have read Eason Jordan's confession about what really happened in Iraq. How his employees were intimidated, to say the least, by Saddam's dictatorship, which Jordan says, "...could not be reported because doing so would have jeopardized the lives of Iraqis, particularly those on our Baghdad staff." What about the countless murdered and tortured Iraqis [...] 24998 55 14_FW: Relentless11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Mon, 21 Apr 2003 08:53:55 -0700287_iso-8859-1 Here are the proper links. I have started to get a ball rolling in our area. There is also a minor link for the follow-up to the "bulldoser incident" in which an American protester got killed. There is valuable information as to what got left out of the media reporting. [...] 25054 32 12_Movie Review11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Mon, 21 Apr 2003 09:15:05 -0700461_iso-8859-1 Just one more item before I go off to work

Two movies I think it would be real shame to miss:

"Nowhere in Africa"

"A Mighty Wind"



Enjoy

Steve

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 25087 66 27_RE: News Media- Bert Kinsey12_Stopak, Noam20_NStopak@orionsci.com31_Mon, 21 Apr 2003 13:30:07 -0400593_iso-8859-1

>From: Steve Klein [mailto:kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com] >Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2003 6:06 PM >To: Habonet >Subject: FW: News Media- Bert Kinsey > >I have not read the book, but agree with Mr. Kinsey's assessment of the follies of CNN. >Couple this with the revelations of late (covering up Iraqi war crimes for the last >eight years) it's a marvel that anyone would still support them (except for those whose >world view CNN helps to sustain). > >Steve Klein >----- > >Subject: News Media > > > >Hello, Everyone, > > > > As many of you know, although some do not, I [...] 25154 50 23_Re: FW: Middle east Map0_15_Emabear@aol.com29_Mon, 21 Apr 2003 14:06:05 EDT348_US-ASCII Except for Palestine which I didn't fill in, for my own little protest, (:-), I couldn't find another empty space for Bahrein. Where is it? I know that some flights from Israel to the Far East fly over so I looked there but didn't find it. I know I know have Senior Moments, maybe the eyesight is going too! Happy Chol Hamoed to all. [...] 25205 102 23_Re: FW: Middle east Map13_richard smith19_rdsmith1957@msn.com31_Mon, 21 Apr 2003 14:23:08 -0400579_iso-8859-1 Bahrein is a small island in the Persian Gulf, it is difficult on that map to see it is not yellow. ----- Original Message ----- From: Emabear@aol.com To: habonet@shamash.org Sent: Monday, April 21, 2003 2:06 PM Subject: Re: FW: Middle east Map



Except for Palestine which I didn't fill in, for my own little protest, (:-), I couldn't find another empty space for Bahrein. Where is it? I know that some flights from Israel to the Far East fly over so I looked there but didn't find it. I know I know have Senior Moments, maybe the eyesight is going [...] 25308 384 42_FW: Article: Linda Lingle, Jewish governor11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Tue, 22 Apr 2003 06:06:02 -0700611_us-ascii Article: Linda Lingle, Jewish governorOf interest.

Steve



-----Original Message----- From: drlucy@lava.net [mailto:drlucy@lava.net] Sent: Monday, April 21, 2003 4:13 PM To: Recipient List Suppressed: Subject: Article: Linda Lingle, Jewish governor



Jewish Faith Shapes Hawaii Governor

Monday, April 21, 2003





HONOLULU - She makes time for her lieutenant and her scheduler, her cabinet and her closest advisers. But every Monday morning, Gov. Linda Lingle sits down to a meeting unlike any other during the week. It's with her rabbi. [...] 25693 645 56_FW: The UN Is Downright UN-American ......by Adam Sparks11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Tue, 22 Apr 2003 06:13:16 -0700526_iso-8859-1 What is the vote from Habonet? This article only puts more words to an action that I think is long in coming. This doesn't mean that the organisation doesn't have to be replaced by something sane and started anew.

Steve



-----Original Message----- From: marcia plager [mailto:mplager@socal.rr.com] Sent: Monday, April 21, 2003 2:08 PM To: Doug and Renee Goldenberg-Schwartz; Elly Krapek; Baruch Eichenbaum; Joyce Kishineff Subject: Fw: The UN Is Downright UN-American ......by Adam Sparks [...] 26339 51 7_request14_aviva grosbard18_deang@bezeqint.net31_Tue, 22 Apr 2003 19:37:33 +0200154_windows-1255 If someone has saved the blank map of the Mideast-I would appreciate if you could re-send it to me. I deleted it by mistake and would like to 26391 511 25_FW: SMEARING DANIEL PIPES11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Tue, 22 Apr 2003 11:51:38 -0700702_iso-8859-1 MessageTHIS is one important article and mission. Please act and forward it on.

Steve



-----Original Message----- From: Harry Gluckman [mailto:hwgluckman@zapcom.net] Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2003 9:05 AM To: hwgluckman@zapcom.net Subject: Fw: SMEARING DANIEL PIPES





We must not let the appointment of Daniel Pipes be rescinded. Write President Bush and write your Senator who must give Senate approval. Sen.. Chuck Schumer D-NY head the committee. You can find the email address of all your elected officials - President and Congressional - through the following site - http://yahoo.capwiz.com/y/officials/congress/?azip=10021&bzip=&submit=Go [...] 26903 204 19_FW: Middle east Map11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Tue, 22 Apr 2003 12:09:35 -0700530_iso-8859-1 As per Aviva Grosbard's request.

Steve Klein



-----Original Message----- From: Harry Gluckman [mailto:hwgluckman@zapcom.net] Sent: Saturday, April 19, 2003 7:21 PM To: hwgluckman@zapcom.net Subject: Fw: Middle east Map Importance: Low





Try your knowledge of the location of the countries in the Middle East.



Click and drag the countries.









http://www.rethinkingschools.org/just_fun/games/mapgame.html





27108 240 19_Re: Middle east Map14_aviva grosbard18_deang@bezeqint.net31_Tue, 22 Apr 2003 22:25:53 +0200529_iso-8859-1 Thanks Steve:)-Aviva ----- Original Message ----- From: Steve Klein To: Habonet Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2003 9:09 PM Subject: FW: Middle east Map



As per Aviva Grosbard's request.

Steve Klein



-----Original Message----- From: Harry Gluckman [mailto:hwgluckman@zapcom.net] Sent: Saturday, April 19, 2003 7:21 PM To: hwgluckman@zapcom.net Subject: Fw: Middle east Map Importance: Low





Try your knowledge of the location of the countries in the Middle East. [...] 27349 130 52_The UN Is Downright UN-American ......by Adam Sparks12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Wed, 23 Apr 2003 12:27:42 +0200585_us-ascii Steve, There's a charming uncomplicated cachet to Adam Sparks' article, >The UN Is Downright UN-American. < It's like saying "I hate the ocean because it is wet." The UN is un american just as it is un french, un german and un israeli. It has done some pretty awful and immoral deeds. It has also done some remarkable ones. To name just one: when Great Britain wanted out of the responsibility it had assumed to administer Palestine under the League of Nations mandate, the UN stepped in and adjudicated its much maligned Partition Plan. For the first time Herzl's dream [...] 27480 217 56_RE: The UN Is Downright UN-American ......by Adam Sparks11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Wed, 23 Apr 2003 08:10:16 -0700503_US-ASCII Amnon

I have no argument for what the UN was. You are right about its past standing and importance. I only have a problem with what it has become.

My question to you is: Do you think it is salvageable?

Steve



-----Original Message----- From: owner-habonet@shamash.org [mailto:owner-habonet@shamash.org]On Behalf Of Amnon Hadary Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2003 3:28 AM To: Habonet@shamash.org Subject: The UN Is Downright UN-American ......by Adam Sparks [...] 27698 482 17_FW: "NEVER AGAIN"11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Wed, 23 Apr 2003 08:13:19 -0700487_iso-8859-1 Worth a read.

Steve -----Original Message----- From: marcia plager [mailto:mplager@socal.rr.com] Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2003 9:44 PM To: Doug and Renee Goldenberg-Schwartz; Elly Krapek; Baruch Eichenbaum; Joyce Kishineff Subject: Fw: "NEVER AGAIN"







Not sure where this appeared, but I received it in a forward.

Article on Jews by John McCain's brother



Subj: Joe McCain (Senator McCain's brother) "NEVER AGAIN" [...] 28181 45 56_Re: The UN Is Downright UN-American ......by Adam Sparks0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Wed, 23 Apr 2003 12:55:26 EDT475_US-ASCII Dear Steve,

I do not presume to answer for Amnon, but for myself I would say:

I hope the UN is salvageable. Nationalism, Religious Truth, and singular reliance on Capitalism can't die quickly enough. We are one human race living on a finite and singular planet. The rational development and distribution of the resources of that planet for our current and future generations use and enjoyment is (or should be) our most earnest and pressing goal. [...] 28227 81 56_RE: The UN Is Downright UN-American ......by Adam Sparks11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Wed, 23 Apr 2003 12:11:05 -0700564_US-ASCII Dennis

Emotionally, I'm with you 100%. I just don't think you can take the UN as it is today and re-organise it and come out with something palatable or even workable. I'm not certain if the jettisoning of the League of Nations was a comparable moment. I wasn't around then, and know little of the details. I do know that we have allowed the UN to be hijacked by a mob of out-of-control radical moslems and their sympathysers and even more people who make no bones about their anti-American feelings. Sure, I think it is a healthy thing for a [...] 28309 237 18_Re: Moshiach redux0_15_NEVETS2@aol.com29_Thu, 24 Apr 2003 05:01:07 EDT486_ISO-8859-1 In a message dated 4/23/03 9:05:35 PM, Dennis writes:

> I hope the UN is salvageable. Nationalism, Religious Truth, and singular > reliance on Capitalism can't die quickly enough. >

In a message dated 4/23/03 9:05:35 PM, Amnon writes:

> I'm still intent on destroying our national sovereignt[ies] and > replacing it with a socialist-style one-world government that redistributes > power to everyone. > ============================================== [...] 28547 86 56_Re: The UN Is Downright UN-American ......by Adam Sparks0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Thu, 24 Apr 2003 08:39:59 EDT417_US-ASCII In a message dated 4/23/2003 3:06:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com writes:



> we have allowed the UN to be hijacked by a mob of > out-of-control radical moslems and their sympathysers and even more people > who make no bones about their anti-American feelings

We allowed? Somehow this seems inconsistent with any workable structure called the United nations. [...] 28634 25 18_Re: Moshiach redux0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Thu, 24 Apr 2003 08:44:19 EDT435_US-ASCII Chaver Steve,

It is difficult to agree completely with such a long and detailed statement, but I do. My list was one of absolutes, not of players. Dennis

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 28660 326 35_FW: Why Abu Mazen Is Not Acceptable11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Thu, 24 Apr 2003 09:32:37 -0700685_iso-8859-1 I'm forwarding this for reaction.

Steve



-----Original Message----- From: Harry Gluckman [mailto:hwgluckman@zapcom.net] Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2003 9:58 PM To: * Harry W. Gluckman Cc: President Bush,, George W. Subject: Fw: Why Abu Mazen Is Not Acceptable





Subject: Why Abu Mazen Is Not Acceptable



Now that Arafat and Abu Mazen have finished their game of 'disagreement' on the makeup of the so-called 'new government for the PA', it is time to once again recall who Abu Mazen really is. The article below is from AFSI and cites the specifics against Abu Mazen and those he has appointed to his government. [...] 28987 300 36_FW: Ed Koch's New Year's Resolutions11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Thu, 24 Apr 2003 09:42:46 -0700515_iso-8859-1 Ed Koch's New Year's ResolutionsNot a lot new here, but certainly worth the read.

Steve



Ed Koch was the outspoken mayor of New York City for twelve years. He never minced words. The following is to be his New Year Commentary prepared for Bloomberg Radio (which, coincidentally, is owned by the current mayor.) Koch's 2003 resolutions are worth heeding - perhaps even following ourselves. This is a sobering yet in a way optimistic analysis by one of our own "elder statesmen." [...] 29288 57 39_Re: FW: Why Abu Mazen Is Not Acceptable0_14_KBob24@aol.com29_Thu, 24 Apr 2003 14:40:47 EDT430_US-ASCII Although I rarely enter the political discussions on Habonet, my reaction to the rehash of all of Abu Mazen's past sins is to (loosely) quote Yitzchak Rabin, who I am sure was quoting some previous political leader.

"You only make peace with your enemy."

I view the appointment of Abu Mazen as a positive sign and am cautiously optimistic that it will serve as incentive to get the ball rolling again. [...] 29346 42 39_Re: FW: Why Abu Mazen Is Not Acceptable0_13_JLCAA@aol.com29_Thu, 24 Apr 2003 17:51:30 EDT535_US-ASCII Steve:

You need to take a look at Abu Mazaen statements over the last year ... especially his statements at refugee camps in Gaza where he talked about the failure of the intifada (Arafat) to produce anything useful for the Palestinian people. He pointed out that through negotiation with the Israelis they had gained much and were close to realizing their dream - a Palestinian State. With the Intifada the lost everything - territory, infrastructure, jobs and lives -- and gained the emnity of the entire world. [...] 29389 50 2_UN16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Fri, 25 Apr 2003 10:01:28 -0400398_us-ascii In Habonet 2564, Dennis Lerner wrote that

> If the first two seem oddly like Bush and Clinton in that order, it should come as no surprise that the US was highly popular > in the world under Clinton and despised under Bush. > Seems to me that Palmerston was more to the point when he observed, in 1840, that "Great Britain doesn't have friends. It has interests." A fortiori the US? 29440 27 14_Abu Mazan/AFSI16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Fri, 25 Apr 2003 10:04:23 -0400413_us-ascii The so-called "Americans for a Safe Israel" oppose any rapprochment with the Palestinians, so it's not surprising that they want to discredit Abu Mazan. Because of his own personal history, Abu Mazan will have to prove his bona fides to Israelis and Israelis are, I am sure, all too aware of his background. Inter alia, wasn't the freedom fighter Ben Gurion a terrorist, depending on the viewpoint? [...] 29468 34 18_RE: Abu Mazan/AFSI12_Stopak, Noam20_NStopak@orionsci.com31_Fri, 25 Apr 2003 10:08:14 -0400623_iso-8859-1 Not to mention Ariel Sharon...

-----Original Message----- From: Elihu D. Davison [mailto:EliD@worldnet.att.net] Sent: Friday, April 25, 2003 10:04 AM To: Habonet Subject: Abu Mazan/AFSI



The so-called "Americans for a Safe Israel" oppose any rapprochment with the Palestinians, so it's not surprising that they want to discredit Abu Mazan. Because of his own personal history, Abu Mazan will have to prove his bona fides to Israelis and Israelis are, I am sure, all too aware of his background. Inter alia, wasn't the freedom fighter Ben Gurion a terrorist, depending on the viewpoint? [...] 29503 37 18_Re: Abu Mazan/AFSI15_Brian S. Cooper21_brian@cooperspace.net31_Fri, 25 Apr 2003 10:23:52 -0400449_us-ascii Elihu D. Davison wrote: > The so-called "Americans for a Safe Israel" oppose any rapprochment with > the Palestinians, so it's not surprising that they want to discredit Abu > Mazan. Because of his own personal history, Abu Mazan will have to > prove his bona fides to Israelis and Israelis are, I am sure, all too > aware of his background. Inter alia, wasn't the freedom fighter Ben > Gurion a terrorist, depending on the viewpoint? [...] 29541 46 6_Re: UN0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Fri, 25 Apr 2003 10:16:19 EDT265_US-ASCII In a message dated 4/25/2003 7:02:45 AM Pacific Daylight Time, EliD@worldnet.att.net writes:

> Great Britain doesn't have friends. It has interests." Isn't that true about every place and person on this earth?..Even "friendship" is self-serving..sue 29588 51 7_L'chaim13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il31_Fri, 25 Apr 2003 17:47:04 +0200107_windows-1255 You don't want to get sick in Cameroon...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/2847557.stm 29640 32 11_Re: L'chaim13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Fri, 25 Apr 2003 11:27:36 -0400 29673 38 17_Choosing The News14_Martin Goodman26_martinjgoodman@hotmail.com31_Fri, 25 Apr 2003 19:44:44 +0000546_- Ed Koch advocates that Jews and their friends should boycott National Public Radio, New York's Channel Thirteen public television station, ABC's World News Tonight anchored by Peter Jennings, BBC News, and Susan Sontag because of their anti-semitic and/or anti-Israel news reporting.

If Koch's assessment of these groups and individuals is correct, boycotting of financial support is warranted and worthwhile. However, I would not stop listening to their news reports. One must know one's adversary if one wishes to defend oneself. [...] 29712 60 20_Re:Choosing The News13_richard smith19_rdsmith1957@msn.com31_Fri, 25 Apr 2003 16:12:28 -0400226_iso-8859-1 I've yet to hear anyone tell me what is wrong with NPR. I listen to it daily for hours each day and I conclude it is the best news anywhere in both its scope, insight, fairness and just plain letting you know what's 29773 46 44_blocking email from specific habinet members15_Brian S. Cooper21_brian@cooperspace.net31_Fri, 25 Apr 2003 16:46:33 -0400625_us-ascii Hi all,

I hope your Pesach holiday was truly liberating.

Recently, a number of Habonet members have set their email application to reject emails from specific members of our list.

As a result, each time one of those blocked people post to Habonet, an error message is generated, and sent to me. This causes an unnecessary load on the Shamash computers and, incidentally, on me. It is also downright nasty. If you do not want to read email from specific list members, delete their messages. But if you continue to generate error messages, I will temporarily suspend your subscription, until [...] 29820 39 21_Re: Choosing The News13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Fri, 25 Apr 2003 17:09:38 -0400437_us-ascii Dear Richard,

I agree totally with you. I am also a dedicated npr listener and I think that it is wonderful, in-depth coverage. I know a number of npr reporters and producers.. All of them are really intelligent, thoughtful, creative, open minded and dedicated people who become real experts on their subject areas. I think the caliber of the reporting at npr reflects the caliber of the people drawn to work there. [...] 29860 58 0_13_richard smith19_rdsmith1957@msn.com31_Fri, 25 Apr 2003 17:22:53 -0400219_iso-8859-1 I guess it is msn or something, but I don't get the e-mail address of the sender so Brian I don't know your new e-mail address, could u send it to me please so I can apologize to u personally when I insult on 29919 26 6_Re: UN0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Fri, 25 Apr 2003 17:36:20 EDT421_US-ASCII In my country we have interests to which we hold fast Friends to which we hold faster, And principles to which we hold steadfastly.

Dennis.

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 29946 23 6_Re: UN0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Fri, 25 Apr 2003 17:37:51 EDT621_US-ASCII Not mine for you, Sue. Love, Dennis

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/

* * FREE JEWISH LEARNING * * Shamash invites you to join MyJewishLearning.com, a comprehensive, objective, authoritative and interactive learning resource in all areas of Judaism. Free membership via http://www.myjewishlearning.com/shamash ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 29970 44 21_Re: Choosing The News11_Lon Ephraim14_cbma@erols.com31_Sat, 26 Apr 2003 01:47:57 -0400372_us-ascii



I just read Martin's letter and was about to write in. Then I remembered that I tend to write before reading all the e-mail, and that there's usually someone, somewhere down the line who feels as I do. I was happy to see Richard's and Judy's responses.

I was going to write, "Is there anyone out there who enjoys NPR as much as I do?" [...] 30015 79 21_Re: Choosing The News0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com29_Sat, 26 Apr 2003 01:57:33 EDT386_US-ASCII In a message dated 4/26/03 1:47:50 AM Eastern Daylight Time, cbma@erols.com writes:

> > I just read Martin's letter and was about to write in. I do. I was happy > to > see Richard's and Judy's responses. > > I was going to write, "Is there anyone out there who enjoys NPR as much as > I do?" > > What, exactly, is all the bad stuff people are talking about???? > > [...] 30095 61 48_Re: blocking email from specific habinet members11_Jack Porter23_jacknusan@earthlink.net31_Sat, 26 Apr 2003 03:30:13 -0700555_US-ASCII on 4/25/03 1:46 PM, Brian S. Cooper at brian@cooperspace.net wrote:

> Hi all, > > I hope your Pesach holiday was truly liberating. > > Recently, a number of Habonet members have set their email application > to reject emails from specific members of our list. > > As a result, each time one of those blocked people post to Habonet, an > error message is generated, and sent to me. This causes an unnecessary > load on the Shamash computers and, incidentally, on me. It is also > downright nasty. If you do not want to read email from [...] 30157 276 25_Abu Mazen and Arafat Now.0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com29_Sat, 26 Apr 2003 08:32:56 EDT447_US-ASCII

U.S. Presses Mideast and Europe to Reduce Ties to Arafat By STEVEN R. WEISMAN New York Times April 26th 2003



ASHINGTON, April 25 - The Bush administration, seeking to bolster a newly emerging team of Palestinian leaders, is pressing Arab and European nations to cut back diplomatic contacts with Yasir Arafat and divert the financing of Palestinian activities away from his control, officials here said today. [...] 30434 58 21_NPR fairness and bias11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Sat, 26 Apr 2003 08:44:54 -0700617_iso-8859-1 Martin

Without detracting from the opinions already expressed about NPR's reporting (some of them from Habonet members whose friendship I cherish), my vote comes down on the negative side. Yes, NPR and PBS have a lot of great reporting and other features (e.g. "All Things Considered") that cannot be heard anywhere else. Unfortunately, however, they have shown a clear, consistent and insidious bias against Israel for the last couple of decades. The leader of the charge is Noam Chomsky, of course, but they don't need Noam to pound in the idea that nothing an Arab could do would be really, [...] 30493 46 21_Re: Choosing The News0_16_Elana829@aol.com29_Sat, 26 Apr 2003 16:14:16 EDT224_US-ASCII Does anyone hear Linda Gradstien's reports regarding Israel and the Palestineans? She is the reporter who I find to be very biased. After hearing her, you may change your mind about NPR.

Elaine Meyers-Matloff 30540 36 21_Re: Choosing The News13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Sat, 26 Apr 2003 17:35:13 -0400474_us-ascii Dear Elana,

I hear her all the time and I think she is even-handed and factual. Yes, she reports about Palestinian life and politics and viewpoints, but she reports much more often about how everyday Israeli life and politics. In fact, my friend who produces at NPR says people complain all the time that Linda Gradstein is too "Israeli" to be objective towards the Palestinians. After all, she and her family have been living in Jerusalem a long time. [...] 30577 45 48_Re: blocking email from specific habinet members12_Brian Cooper21_brian@cooperspace.net31_Sun, 27 Apr 2003 00:04:25 -0400540_iso-8859-1 That's correct, Jack. If you hit "Reply" it goes to the list. That's by design. I do not encourage private responses to list messages, unless it's clear the topic is now only of interest to the two involved.

I have been made aware of privately emailed personal attacks and harassing behavior off-line. If necessary I will unsubscribe members who do that as well. If we can't discuss these issues in a friendly or even civil manner, how can we possible demand this of the Palestinians and Israelis in the think of it? [...] 30623 1017 46_Bleak Conclusions from the History of a People11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org31_Sun, 27 Apr 2003 07:32:37 -0500630_ISO-8859-1

It is very difficult these last two or so years to deal with the Palestinian issues. The present situation has brought Israel into near economic destruction. Not only has the school suffered, but the entire country is in financial straits due to the near total drop in tourism, coupled with the bursting of the High Tech Bubble. If one speaks out against the Palestinians and pro-Israel, one is branded "right wing". The news has distorted the facts tremendously. Human rights activists have been accidentally killed by Tzahal, but it turns out that they have been activiely fighting with the Palestinians [...] 31641 51 7_Ironies0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Sun, 27 Apr 2003 13:44:42 EDT599_US-ASCII I wanted to share something with you. Lately, as I've been reading the papers and listening to various things on TV, I've had a recurrent sense of a classic Jewish underpinning to the US Constitution and political principles. As a Jew I have often heard that the founding fathers were literate in Hebrew and schooled in the Pentateuch, and that many of the US's organizational and political concepts had that origin. As an Upstate New Yorker, I have also heard that the Iroquois Confederacy was the model (first draft) for the US Constitution. I'm sure that many individual threads of [...] 31693 75 11_Re: Ironies13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il31_Sun, 27 Apr 2003 21:03:02 +0200550_ISO-8859-1 Dennis, from the comments I see so frequently these days on the Internet, there are a lot of people out there who already suspect that the current US administration has "secret Jewish philosophical underpinnings". Be that as it may, if you could identify exactly what the Jewish aspects of the American Constitution are, I'd be obliged. I've always thought that the major philosophical inspiration for the US system of government was the European Enlightenment and the ancient Greeks and Romans, to say nothing of English Common Law. [...] 31769 1254 44_Fw: A blindness in the mind - April 27, 20038_molieric25_molieric@netvision.net.il31_Sun, 27 Apr 2003 22:02:09 +0200408_iso-8859-1 Beliefnet Daily ReadingHi Hevra,

I think that what is written in "Today's Wisdom" is appropriate to a lot of the mail I've been reading from you all.

No intention of upseting anyone.

Mollie Marx ----- Original Message ----- From: Beliefnet Jewish Wisdom To: molieric@NETVISION.NET.IL Sent: Sunday, April 27, 2003 7:30 AM Subject: A blindness in the mind - April 27, 2003 [...] 33024 65 11_Re: Ironies13_richard smith19_rdsmith1957@msn.com31_Sun, 27 Apr 2003 15:08:57 -0400237_iso-8859-1 Also, to the best of my knowledge, none of the founding fathers read Hebrew.

Jon, I have just completed the biography of John Adams, who was one of the best educated and most intellectual of the founding fathers, and no 33090 91 25_Re: NPR fairness and bias0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com29_Sun, 27 Apr 2003 19:35:17 EDT558_US-ASCII In a message dated 4/26/03 11:40:44 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com writes:

> > There are loads of people out there that buy this way of looking at the > conflict. They are people that I actually like. I can't help that they > choose to sympathise with a different set of facts from the ones that I use > in my own analyses. As you have seen just on Habonet alone, the conflict is > long, complex and convoluted. Injustices abound on both sides. There are > the > issues of the settlements and of the roadblocks > > [...] 33182 35 11_Re: Ironies12_David Fleiss20_dfleiss@pipeline.com31_Sun, 27 Apr 2003 20:21:34 -0400393_us-ascii Jonathan Baum wrote (in part): >Also, to the best of my knowledge, none of the founding fathers read Hebrew.

I don't know specifically about Jefferson, Adams, and Madison, but knowledge of Hebrew was somewhat wide-spread among intellectuals in the colonies.

I've read that the commencement addresses at Harvard were made in Hebrew and Greek during its early years. [...] 33218 38 41_Jewish underpinnings of the Connstitution13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Mon, 28 Apr 2003 07:29:32 -0400677_us-ascii > Dear Dennis,

Judaism, pre-American diaspora, had little if any use for personal rights (as opposed to collective rights) and no democracy. In the diaspora, Judaism became decentralized, which is sometimes mistaken for democracy, and the rabbinic tradition allowed for the dissenters' positions to be recorded for posterity. However, the Talmudic literature, where all these more democratic traditions are contained, is in Aramaic. The forefathers did look to the Bible and the Prophet tradition, with America regarded as the New Canaan, but that has to do with the nation's Protestant roots, which looked back to Christianity's Jewish roots, rather than [...] 33257 180 25_RE: NPR fairness and bias11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Mon, 28 Apr 2003 07:25:14 -0700606_US-ASCII Sam

I'm a little surprised. Your accusation of loyalty to the interests of the mitnachalim is hugely misplaced. I never advocated for settlements. NEVER. The only thing I did write was my belief that if the settlements all disappeared, it still wouldn't make a dent toward peace with the radical elements of the Palestinian cause. I still believe that. The reason I mentioned it as an issue now is exactly made clear by your reaction. As for the roadblocks, I am strongly opposed to their dismantling. Yes, I know they are a terrible inconvenience to the free passage of Palestinians. [...] 33438 416 8_UN again13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il31_Mon, 28 Apr 2003 18:57:27 +0200391_windows-1255 This is a scathing attack on the UN. I think I remember that some folks on the Habonet were defending the UN as a possible role model for a world government, or some such. There isn't much that I could add to this article (well...Rwanda come to mind) except to say that if by some disaster the UN were a government of some kind, we here in Israel would be in deep doo-doo. [...] 33855 29 18_Bayefsky on the UN11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Mon, 28 Apr 2003 10:47:02 -0700506_iso-8859-1 Jonathon

Thank you for providing us with this article. Before anyone vilifies you for putting it up (for any number of incomprehensible reasons), I and many others stand by your action.

Thank you again.

Steve

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 33885 53 22_Re: Bayefsky on the UN13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il31_Mon, 28 Apr 2003 20:47:33 +0200123_iso-8859-1 Well, thanks Steve, but I don't think I've been vilified on Habonet before. What does one have to do?

Jon 33939 88 22_RE: Bayefsky on the UN12_Stopak, Noam20_NStopak@orionsci.com31_Mon, 28 Apr 2003 14:03:18 -0400474_iso-8859-1 Hi Jon,

If you disagree with Steve you are vilifying him. If he calls you insane, disturbed etc, that is civil discourse.

Hope this helps,

Noam

-----Original Message----- From: Jonathan Baum [mailto:jonbaum@sasa.org.il] Sent: Monday, April 28, 2003 2:48 PM To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: Re: Bayefsky on the UN



Well, thanks Steve, but I don't think I've been vilified on Habonet before. What does one have to do? [...] 34028 125 22_RE: Bayefsky on the UN11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Mon, 28 Apr 2003 11:16:28 -0700581_iso-8859-1 (continuing the tongue-in-cheek)

It's not hard. You simply have to state an opinion that is different from someone else's, sometimes only by a degree or so. If you are lucky, voices will then come out of the woodwork letting you know that you are a moron, a traitor, much too much simplistic or over-the-top complex. THEN, (if you are one of the winners of the Grand Prize), you will not only be "vilified", but you will be put on "Automatic Electronic Delete". So far, this ultimate prize has not been awarded, but as I understand it, it's only because the [...] 34154 35 44_Official Vilification Rules and Requirements11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Mon, 28 Apr 2003 11:22:32 -0700558_iso-8859-1 Jonathon

I just checked my Habonet e-mail. Alas, I was too late. It's once again time to call a truce.

KING'S X!!!!

YOU WIN!!!

I GIVE UP!!!

NO NEED TO HIT AGAIN!!!

ps: What happened to all those "DELETE" buttons????????????????????



------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 34190 85 48_RE: Official Vilification Rules and Requirements12_Stopak, Noam20_NStopak@orionsci.com31_Mon, 28 Apr 2003 14:29:51 -0400462_iso-8859-1 From: Steve Klein [mailto:kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com] Sent: Monday, April 28, 2003 2:23 PM To: Habonet Subject: Official Vilification Rules and Requirements



Jonathon

I just checked my Habonet e-mail. Alas, I was too late. It's once again time to call a truce.

KING'S X!!!!

YOU WIN!!!

I GIVE UP!!!

NO NEED TO HIT AGAIN!!!

ps: What happened to all those "DELETE" buttons???????????????????? [...] 34276 38 17_Hurts and Slights11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Mon, 28 Apr 2003 11:40:20 -0700483_iso-8859-1 Habonetters all

To anyone I may have hurt or insulted or slighted, inadvertently or even advertently, I apologise.

In the now distant past,when I discribed an idea or opinion as insane or disturbed, I only meant to attack the opinion, not the person. God knows, I have had insane and disturbed thoughts, ideas and opinions myself. By the tons!! And when it became clear that my too-strong rhetoric was disturbing to the flow, I toned it down. Way down. [...] 34315 108 48_RE: Official Vilification Rules and Requirements11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Mon, 28 Apr 2003 11:48:06 -0700347_iso-8859-1 Noam-

I am holding to my bargain. (Except for now, in order to answer your direct inquiry). I did not address anything I have written since then to you. I did not have you in mind when I wrote to Jonathon. No bitterness or ill feelings. I stopped any "war" I might have had with you at the letter you included on this page. [...] 34424 56 21_RE: Hurts and Slights12_Stopak, Noam20_NStopak@orionsci.com31_Mon, 28 Apr 2003 14:43:11 -0400350_iso-8859-1 Of course a few nanoseconds ago (or was it in the distant past?) Steve Klein said:

"Before anyone vilifies you for putting it up (for any number of incomprehensible reasons), I and many others stand by your action."

Please forgive me if reporting the historical record is vilification. I'm just interested in the truth. [...] 34481 36 13_Clarification11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Mon, 28 Apr 2003 12:01:43 -0700447_iso-8859-1 Noam

You state case of "historical record". There isn't any one consistent or coherent historical record any more than there is one truth out there. Truth has been used and misused so often, it is hardly recognisable when it crops up. Everyone has a True religion. Everyone has a true political belief. Even our best scientists write of scientific "proofs". That is, until another proof comes along to dispel the first one. [...] 34518 27 17_RE: Clarification12_Stopak, Noam20_NStopak@orionsci.com31_Mon, 28 Apr 2003 15:01:11 -0400472_iso-8859-1 Steve,

I bring up words you have written. That is the truth and the historical record to which I refer. Not some religion or perception of historical events. Do you dispute it?

Noam

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 34546 23 22_Re: Bayefsky on the UN0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Mon, 28 Apr 2003 15:41:04 EDT645_US-ASCII Actually, Noam, from where I sit, it doesn't.

Dennis

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/

* * FREE JEWISH LEARNING * * Shamash invites you to join MyJewishLearning.com, a comprehensive, objective, authoritative and interactive learning resource in all areas of Judaism. Free membership via http://www.myjewishlearning.com/shamash ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 34570 44 17_RE: Clarification11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Mon, 28 Apr 2003 12:56:09 -0700482_iso-8859-1 Noam

To what are you referring?

Steve

-----Original Message----- From: owner-habonet@shamash.org [mailto:owner-habonet@shamash.org]On Behalf Of Stopak, Noam Sent: Monday, April 28, 2003 12:01 PM To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: RE: Clarification



Steve,

I bring up words you have written. That is the truth and the historical record to which I refer. Not some religion or perception of historical events. Do you dispute it? [...] 34615 32 21_Re: Hurts and Slights0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Mon, 28 Apr 2003 15:50:37 EDT575_US-ASCII Steve, Just for my part, I've always thought you were a colossal AH. That's why I named my son Steven (Michael Steven). That's why I think of you all the time. That's why I read your postings with relish, if not always with agreement. And I've noted that you generally are tolerant of my aberrations as well. Perhaps because I too, am a colossal AH. Some of the smaller AH's around these parts seem less open, less accepting, narrower in their openness, and naturally, more sensitive. I guess its one of the legendary cases where size really does matter. Maybe [...] 34648 30 21_Re: Hurts and Slights0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Mon, 28 Apr 2003 15:55:11 EDT295_US-ASCII I can't tell you all how relieved and reassured I am in my own judgment of others. Noam has confirmed that in the noble tradition of J. Edgar Hoover and John Ashcroft he keeps careful records of who said what when to offend him.

Dennis Lerner 3:45 PM April 28, 2003 Habonet [...] 34679 21 19_To Dennis and Steve0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com31_Mon, 28 Apr 2003 16:00:51 -0400717_iso-8859-1 Hey! Why weren't you guys so much fun on Workshop?????- I wouldn't have stayed so comfy in our little Baltimore clique!- :) susie

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/

* * FREE JEWISH LEARNING * * Shamash invites you to join MyJewishLearning.com, a comprehensive, objective, authoritative and interactive learning resource in all areas of Judaism. Free membership via http://www.myjewishlearning.com/shamash ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 34701 54 21_RE: Hurts and Slights11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Mon, 28 Apr 2003 13:08:27 -0700500_US-ASCII Dennis

Without realising it, you have contributed to my scrapbook of "all-time favorite letters". I am printing it out and putting it next to similar letters (heck, darn near identical) from my daughters. I will wear the badge of "Colassal AH" with pride. I'm sorry I can't return the accolade by naming my next child after you, but since none of my children were given middle names, I am assigning "Dennis" to the youngest, for reasons that will have to be kept secret forever. [...] 34756 220 21_RE: Hurts and Slights16_Miller, David E.18_DEMiller@HHLAW.com31_Mon, 28 Apr 2003 16:06:08 -0400688_iso-8859-1 frankly, y'all need something to do

--David Miller, Workshop 36

-----Original Message----- From: Steve Klein [mailto:kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com] Sent: Monday, April 28, 2003 4:08 PM To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: RE: Hurts and Slights



Dennis

Without realising it, you have contributed to my scrapbook of "all-time favorite letters". I am printing it out and putting it next to similar letters (heck, darn near identical) from my daughters. I will wear the badge of "Colassal AH" with pride. I'm sorry I can't return the accolade by naming my next child after you, but since none of my children were given middle names, I am assigning [...] 34977 43 23_RE: To Dennis and Steve11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Mon, 28 Apr 2003 13:13:17 -0700529_iso-8859-1 Sue

It's never too late to have a second childhood. Don't forget- Our cabin also contained (well, maybe that's not the right word) Yoel Isaacson! You should have come over more often. As consolation, I am sending your personal mail some more "favorites".

Be well.

Steve

-----Original Message----- From: owner-habonet@shamash.org [mailto:owner-habonet@shamash.org]On Behalf Of LiberHawke@aol.com Sent: Monday, April 28, 2003 1:01 PM To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: To Dennis and Steve [...] 35021 36 23_Re: To Dennis and Steve0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Mon, 28 Apr 2003 16:31:44 EDT388_US-ASCII We (if I can speak for Steve and even if I can't) hadn't then reach the zenith of our artful and amusing capacities, especially in the area of put downs - though I acknowledge that Steve was significantly more advanced in this regard than me. I think too, that at that adolescent stage we failed to recognize our own considerable power to amuse and defame (simultaneously). [...] 35058 27 21_Re: Hurts and Slights0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Mon, 28 Apr 2003 16:35:16 EDT556_US-ASCII I do need something to do. In the meantime, I'm about to run for City Court Judge here in Syracuse. I have a good credentials as in-house counsel on all manner of business organization and management issues, litigation management and risk management.

Any suggestions? Dennis

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 35086 154 21_RE: Hurts and Slights16_Miller, David E.18_DEMiller@HHLAW.com31_Mon, 28 Apr 2003 16:45:12 -0400566_iso-8859-1 How about some CLE? Or volunteering for one of the nascent presidential campaigns?

A fellow atty.,

David

-----Original Message----- From: DLerner569@aol.com [mailto:DLerner569@aol.com] Sent: Monday, April 28, 2003 4:35 PM To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: Re: Hurts and Slights



I do need something to do. In the meantime, I'm about to run for City Court

Judge here in Syracuse. I have a good credentials as in-house counsel on all manner of business organization and management issues, litigation management [...] 35241 58 23_RE: To Dennis and Steve11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Mon, 28 Apr 2003 14:02:10 -0700468_US-ASCII Dennis

I don't quite know where this is going, and I am somewhat trepidatious in stringing along, but.... OK what's the word? (Sequoia doesn't have the "y" and is somewhat out of order.)

Ditto on Judy

Steve

-----Original Message----- From: owner-habonet@shamash.org [mailto:owner-habonet@shamash.org]On Behalf Of DLerner569@aol.com Sent: Monday, April 28, 2003 1:32 PM To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: Re: To Dennis and Steve [...] 35300 21 21_Re: Hurts and Slights0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Mon, 28 Apr 2003 17:02:52 EDT663_US-ASCII I was thinking more along the lines of, "Move out here and join my practice."

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/

* * FREE JEWISH LEARNING * * Shamash invites you to join MyJewishLearning.com, a comprehensive, objective, authoritative and interactive learning resource in all areas of Judaism. Free membership via http://www.myjewishlearning.com/shamash ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 35322 43 18_Our bickering boys13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Mon, 28 Apr 2003 17:47:57 -0400490_us-ascii Dear Gentlemen,

Thank you for the adoration. I don't know what I do to deserve it.

But, while you are thinking highly of me, I do have a request: can we all please play nicely and stop throwing sand around this playground? Despite our philosophical and political disagreements about deeply held beliefs and opinions, I sincerely request that we stop PERSONAL attacks and counter attacks. Even if someone you are enjoying it, it is unpleasant for the rest of us. [...] 35366 74 22_Re: Our bickering boys12_Esther Cohen22_richard.steacy@gte.net31_Mon, 28 Apr 2003 19:05:10 -0400335_iso-8859-1 i have to jump in here, judy, with a comment about your ageist reaction to your boys - my oldest brother (not chip - he's the middle) ALways got in trouble - as soon as any of the rest of us hollered, the response was "JOHN!" - and this continued - i swear to you - after he'd left not only the house, but the country! [...] 35441 31 23_Re: To Dennis and Steve12_David Fleiss20_dfleiss@pipeline.com31_Mon, 28 Apr 2003 19:51:42 -0400594_us-ascii Dennis asked:

>That reminds me... actually of two things. First, do you know a word that >contains all of the vowels including "y"? Well, simultaneously is one, and >unquestionably is another. Here's the quiz. What is the third that has them >all in order?

That would be "facetiously"

David



------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 35473 192 25_Re: NPR fairness and bias0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com29_Tue, 29 Apr 2003 03:51:57 EDT485_US-ASCII In a message dated 4/28/03 10:21:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com writes:

> Sam > > I'm a little surprised. Your accusation of loyalty to the interests of the > mitnachalim is hugely misplaced. I never advocated for settlements. NEVER. > The only thing I did write was my belief that if the settlements all > disappeared, it still wouldn't make a dent toward peace with the radical > elements of the Palestinian cause. I still believe that. [...] 35666 34 23_Re: To Dennis and Steve20_Naomi Goldberg Honor18_naomijgh@yahoo.com37_Tue, 29 Apr 2003 09:18:14 -0700 (PDT)575_us-ascii Dennis--

abstemiously and facetiously not only have all the vowels, but they are in alpabetical order including y sometimes.

Enjoy

Naomi Goldberg Honor

__________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 35701 479 25_RE: NPR fairness and bias11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Tue, 29 Apr 2003 10:54:02 -0700566_US-ASCII Sam

I can't believe the conversation we are having. We are sitting here agreeing with each other all over the place, sounding as if we are having an argument. Let me be as clear as I possibly can; YES, YES, YES. I agree removal of the settlements will make Israel healthier and stronger. The settlements are a huge drain on the economy and on other resources, and are devisive by their nature, and are difficult to defend in manpower. (By the way, I don't think every single dwelling over the green line is a "settlement". To me, French Hill is [...] 36181 26 23_Re: To Dennis and Steve0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Tue, 29 Apr 2003 14:23:36 EDT692_US-ASCII Naomi,

You are unquestionably correct.

Thanks for playing, your prize is in the mail. Dennis

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/

* * FREE JEWISH LEARNING * * Shamash invites you to join MyJewishLearning.com, a comprehensive, objective, authoritative and interactive learning resource in all areas of Judaism. Free membership via http://www.myjewishlearning.com/shamash ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 36208 196 17_NYC region events23_Habonim Dror Foundation26_foundation@habonimdror.org31_Tue, 29 Apr 2003 15:55:26 -0400617_iso-8859-1



There are a couple of events at my Museum that I thought people in the Na'aleh community would be interested in. I would appreciate you posting these on any of the Na'aleh/Habonim listservs.

The first event is a poetry reading this Thursday evening, May 1st. The second is a concert by the Israeli group Habrera Hativeet featuring Shlomo Bar on Thursday May 8th in the evening. The Museum is offering special pricing for the first event as you can see from the notice I am appending below. For concert pricing, those interested should call Elissa Schein at 212-968-1800, x. 179 [...] 36405 66 3_NPR13_richard smith19_rdsmith1957@msn.com31_Tue, 29 Apr 2003 16:09:38 -0400356_iso-8859-1 What is the connection with NPR and Noam Chomsky? I listen to NPR daily, and on weekends sometimes all day and can't remember the last time I heard Chomsky on it. I happen to agree that Chomsky is a wacko, but even if he has been on NPR a few times, he does represent a view never heard on commercial news services so it would still be a service 36472 28 12_contact info0_12_SHX2@aol.com29_Tue, 29 Apr 2003 21:41:13 EDT755_US-ASCII Dear Habonet,

Does anyone have contact info (especially e-mail) for Lenny Turk or David Turk, Baltimore Habonim late 60"s?

Thank you.

Steven Hancoff

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/

* * FREE JEWISH LEARNING * * Shamash invites you to join MyJewishLearning.com, a comprehensive, objective, authoritative and interactive learning resource in all areas of Judaism. Free membership via http://www.myjewishlearning.com/shamash ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 36501 38 25_Re: NPR fairness and bias0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com31_Wed, 30 Apr 2003 09:33:32 -0400410_iso-8859-1 In a message dated 4/29/2003 12:54:02 PM Eastern Standard Time, kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com writes:

> > I can't believe the conversation we are having. We are sitting here agreeing with each other all over the place, sounding as if we are having an argument. Let me be as clear as I possibly can; YES, YES, YES. I agree removal of the settlements will make Israel healthier and stronger. [...] 36540 161 14_More on the UN13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il31_Wed, 30 Apr 2003 17:57:25 +0200572_windows-1255 Maybe I can get vilified for this one. Come on, bring it!

Seriously for a moment, my main problem with the UN is that, in the end, it can only represent the interests of its member-states, with the more powerful getting their more powerful share. How can a body made up of mostly non-democratic countries claim to be democratic (demos=people)? The Security Council, on the other hand, reflects the power-structure of the victors of the Second World War. Is this still entirely relevant? If France has a Council seat, then why not India or Brazil? [...] 36702 54 27_Norman Mailer pitches in...13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il31_Wed, 30 Apr 2003 18:48:31 +0200157_windows-1255 I've read some dumb articles on the war in Iraq, but this one "tops" them all.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,482-662789,00.html 36757 108 31_RE: Norman Mailer pitches in...12_Stopak, Noam20_NStopak@orionsci.com31_Wed, 30 Apr 2003 12:11:56 -0400556_windows-1255



-----Original Message----- From: Jonathan Baum [mailto:jonbaum@sasa.org.il] Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 12:49 PM To: Habonet Subject: Norman Mailer pitches in...



I've read some dumb articles on the war in Iraq, but this one "tops" them all.

Hi Jon,

Hope merely responding doesn't qualify as vilification or proof of an overly narrow or sensitive AH. At the risk of having the big dogs line up to overcome what they perceive to be a shortcoming in that area, I'll venture a comment or two. [...] 36866 206 7_RE: NPR6_Kathee26_holycowfoods@earthlink.net31_Wed, 30 Apr 2003 09:32:34 -0700641_iso-8859-1 Noam Chomsky is often heard on alternative radio, a nationally syndicated program out of Boulder, CO. The web site is alternativeradio.org. My NPR station airs the show.

-----Original Message----- From: owner-habonet@shamash.org [mailto:owner-habonet@shamash.org]On Behalf Of richard smith Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2003 1:10 PM To: habonet Subject: NPR

What is the connection with NPR and Noam Chomsky? I listen to NPR daily, and on weekends sometimes all day and can't remember the last time I heard Chomsky on it. I happen to agree that Chomsky is a wacko, but even if he has been on NPR a few times, he does [...] 37073 61 18_RE: More on the UN12_Stopak, Noam20_NStopak@orionsci.com31_Wed, 30 Apr 2003 12:51:27 -0400365_windows-1255 Hi Jon,

I share your concerns about the UN, both in terms of it's structure and membership, as well as the cooruption and vested interests which get in the way of solving problems. I share your disdain for the hypocracy of bleeding hearts everywhere as well. But I have to ask - do you really think that the US is less corrupt or perverse? [...] 37135 117 31_Re: Norman Mailer pitches in...13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il31_Wed, 30 Apr 2003 19:54:27 +0200333_windows-1255 Well Noam, I suppose that if you can cram enough off-the-wall ideas in to one article, a couple of them might make sense. It's just that, in my mind, Mailer disqualifies himself as serious commentator because of his central thesis that the war was waged because of the "ongoing malaise of the white American male". [...] 37253 103 31_RE: Norman Mailer pitches in...12_Stopak, Noam20_NStopak@orionsci.com31_Wed, 30 Apr 2003 13:05:06 -0400670_windows-1255



-----Original Message----- From: Jonathan Baum [mailto:jonbaum@sasa.org.il] Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 1:54 PM To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: Re: Norman Mailer pitches in...



Well Noam, I suppose that if you can cram enough off-the-wall ideas in to one article, a couple of them might make sense. [[ns]] :-)

Until some one can prove otherwise, I remain convinced the Americans went to war in Iraq for strategic/security reasons, whether one thinks they were valid or no. [[ns]] I don't disagree (though I don't think the stated reasons, at least most of the 5 or 6 that I recall, were valid), though I think [...] 37357 74 31_Re: Norman Mailer pitches in...13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il31_Wed, 30 Apr 2003 20:13:30 +0200365_windows-1255 Noam,

I suppose any politician will exploit a victorious war at election time. This has been true since Julius Ceasar's time. Bush's approval ratings were pretty good before the war with Iraq, so I'm not convinced by any "wag the dog" theories, as fun as they are.

Is the US as perverse as the UN? I'll have to think about that one. [...] 37432 42 31_Re: Norman Mailer pitches in...0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com31_Wed, 30 Apr 2003 13:18:39 -0400531_iso-8859-1 As long as even one little inch of the reason was to rid Iraq of this Hitler, and give children a chance o grow up in a society where they can realize their potential instead of living in fear and extreme poverty, under a dictator who hides millions of dollars in walls, while his people have no food or water, I say it is justified and every other guess at "excuses" is moot....it is done. Too bad we can't go other places where this is happening without being hated so much. But hey- "hate" is in the eyes of the [...] 37475 60 31_Re: Norman Mailer pitches in...0_15_DebALev@aol.com29_Wed, 30 Apr 2003 13:28:31 EDT472_US-ASCII In a message dated 4/30/2003 1:27:12 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LiberHawke@aol.com writes:

> QXMgbG9uZyBhcyBldmVuIG9uZSBsaXR0bGUgaW5jaCBvZiB0aGUgcmVhc29uIHdhcyB0byBy > aWQgSXJhcSBvZiB0aGlzIEhpdGxlciwgYW5kIGdpdmUgY2hpbGRyZW4gYSBjaGFuY2UgbyBn > cm93IHVwIGluIGEgIHNvY2lldHkgd2hlcmUgdGhleSBjYW4gcmVhbGl6ZSB0aGVpciBwb3Rl > bnRpYWwgaW5zdGVhZCBvZiBsaXZpbmcgaW4gZmVhciBhbmQgZXh0cmVtZSBwb3ZlcnR5LCB1

Susie, this came in gibberish as shown above.

Debbie 37536 61 31_Re: Norman Mailer pitches in...13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il31_Wed, 30 Apr 2003 20:30:02 +0200280_iso-8859-1 Sue,

It's almost all true (even though the first automobile was built in Germany - the airplane might have been a better example) but I'm not sure how thankful the world is for giving them Newt Gingrich. Anyhow, I agree with the spirit of your letter.

Jon