1 SHAMASH.ORG /usr/www/wwwhc/listserv/archives/habonet March 2003 2 26 58_Times article concerning Bush nominee to the Supreme Court11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com30_Sat, 1 Mar 2003 04:03:25 -0800281_iso-8859-1 A friend sent me an article that should concern us as US citizens. The Bush nominee to the Supreme Court is Deborah Cook, and she looks disasterous for the rights of anyone at the mercy of the big corporations. Please let me know if you'd like it forwarded to you. [...] 29 67 62_Re: Times article concerning Bush nominee to the Supreme Court0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com28_Sat, 1 Mar 2003 13:18:48 EST624_US-ASCII Hey Steve.



I have read the article about Deborah Cook. I share your feeling. I do think that opposing her flows almost as a shared responsibility from our movement values. Cook is just one of an large number frightening judicial and rights issues being addressed right now in the country. The Senate Democrats are currently conducting a fillibuster against the appointment of Estrada to the DC Circuit Court of Appeals. I actually sat and watched you Senator ( and fellow Jew) Barbara Boxer participating in that fillibuster. I think the issue of Judge Cook being elevated from the Ohio Supreme [...] 97 206 17_Thus Spake Hadary12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Sat, 01 Mar 2003 22:01:49 +0200569_iso-8859-1 Dennis please help me find another name for this thread. I'm getting nervous of having my name taken in vain. I'm turning to you because what you wrote recently strikes as worth pursuing. But please, another subject name. You wrote: >I think of myths as stories which are symbolic and have no necessary historical or factual reality. My years alive have taught me that truth is a function of perspective. ... take it on faith that this understanding is a scarce commodity and therefore most of the time what we see as the truth is merely a more or less [...] 304 37 30_Machane Gilboa 2003 Open House11_Batel Libes25_batel_libes@earthlink.net30_Sat, 1 Mar 2003 12:46:08 -0800366_iso-8859-1 Machane Gilboa will be hosting an open house in the S.F. Bay Area on Sunday, March 9, 2 p.m. - 4 p.m. Present will be Alex Sharone, this year's Rosh, along with other madrichim and chanichim. This is a super important event for Gilboa, as it is working very hard to increase its attendance, and every chanich or potential chanich makes a difference. [...] 342 49 42_RE: Machane Gilboa 2003 Open House, part 211_Batel Libes25_batel_libes@earthlink.net30_Sat, 1 Mar 2003 12:49:07 -0800662_iso-8859-1 You can also contact the new registrar Natlie Spangler at 310-439-1298.

-----Original Message----- From: owner-habonet@shamash.org [mailto:owner-habonet@shamash.org]On Behalf Of Batel Libes Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2003 12:46 PM To: Habonet Subject: Machane Gilboa 2003 Open House

Machane Gilboa will be hosting an open house in the S.F. Bay Area on Sunday, March 9, 2 p.m. - 4 p.m. Present will be Alex Sharone, this year's Rosh, along with other madrichim and chanichim. This is a super important event for Gilboa, as it is working very hard to increase its attendance, and every chanich or potential chanich makes a difference. [...] 392 37 68_Re: Thus Spake Hadary is hereby changed to Perspectives on the truth0_18_DLerner569@aol.com28_Sat, 1 Mar 2003 16:22:01 EST574_US-ASCII Amnon.

As I have posted before it seems clear to me that the Sacrifice of Isaac was God's way of saying with maximum force that human sacrifice is not wanted by God, regardless of the sincerity and willingness of the offeror to do what he believes God wants. The offering of incense is similar - God doesn't expect us to make up or compete in the development of ritual to serve him. Such human innovations lead inexorably to excess. Moses' circumcision is the inverse: I expect my commandments to be obeyed if you expect the benefits that come from the [...] 430 26 21_The debate continues.4_Meir21_meir_h@maccabi.org.il30_Sun, 2 Mar 2003 00:44:08 +0200453_windows-1255 As I see it the non-sacrifice of Isaac was ABRAHAM'S way of saying that the "God" that he invented doesn't want human sacrifice. What a role model Abraham is !!!!

Meir

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 457 60 68_Re: Thus Spake Hadary is hereby changed to Perspectives on the truth0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com28_Sat, 1 Mar 2003 20:11:03 EST595_US-ASCII In a message dated 3/1/2003 1:22:56 PM Pacific Standard Time, DLerner569@aol.com writes:

> law but we are not empowered to make it up for God. > > Dennis- isn't that true only if you accept God as the Old Testament all-powerful,judgemental, angry strong-armed image painted by our primitive yet savvy ancesters...If we created God for need, then don't we have every right to make up whatever we want? Some would say that God was merciful in giving Abraham a last-minute reprieve in the binding of Isaac, while others would view it as a cruel tactic to test "obedience" of a [...] 518 47 34_Re: Machane Gilboa 2003 Open House7_jzatkin26_jzatkin@public2.bta.net.cn30_Sun, 2 Mar 2003 17:46:01 +0800769_iso-8859-1 Dear Batel,

As a boger of San Francisco Habonim, I applaud your efforts on behalf of Machaneh Gilboa and urge everybody in the area to do all you can to help!

Aleh U'v'neh!!

Bvirkat chaverim,

Jon Zatkin San Francisco Ken Arafel 1959-65 12th Workshop (Gesher Haziv) 1962-3 Chaver Gesher Haziv 1965-8

Please visit our website: http://www.nscl-beijing.org |================================================= |Jon Zatkin Tel: (8610) 6298-5758 |Head of School (Emeritus) Fax: (8610) 6298-1620 |The New School of Collaborative Learning |An Ning Zhuang, Qing He Zhen |Haidian District Email: jzatkin@nscl-beijing.org (O) |Beijing, China 100085 jzatkin@public2.bta.net.cn (H) |================================================= [...] 566 49 25_Re: The debate continues.0_18_DLerner569@aol.com28_Sun, 2 Mar 2003 12:25:15 EST573_US-ASCII Meir,

Aside from the forceful assertion that Man created God, which doesn't strike me as either new, or a big deal since neither position (God created Man or Man created God) is provable or exclusive of the other, I don't understand the implication of your posting. You seem to be implying that the idea of being opposed to human sacrifice as a means of securing God's (existent or nonexistent) favor is no big deal. Let me suggest from my point of view, in the context of the time, and as antecedent to our own time, the move from religious sacrifice [...] 616 56 68_Re: Thus Spake Hadary is hereby changed to Perspectives on the truth0_18_DLerner569@aol.com28_Sun, 2 Mar 2003 12:46:01 EST646_ISO-8859-1 Sue,

Let me say simply, and with consummate hubris, that I think both interpretations are horribly wrong. My personal view of God is that something (an impurity in the Universe, an equation, a number with millions of zeroes - something is responsible for the universe of finite possibilities, whatever those are) and that something is what we mere mortals call God. In our naiveté we imbue that God with characteristics and qualities which meet our insecurities and our desire for rationality (or our limitations for understanding and coping with randomness - irrationality). >From my particular perspective God is God and [...] 673 61 22_Re: Forwarded articles8_molieric25_molieric@netvision.net.il31_Sun, 02 Mar 2003 20:05:05 +0200307_iso-8859-1 Dear Judy,

For what ever it's worth, I definitely agree with you about reading interest material other than the criss cross conversations that are our daily portions. If I find something really interesting I will send it on to family & friends. We need a bit of colour in our lives!! [...] 735 116 25_RE: The debate continues.4_Meir21_meir_h@maccabi.org.il30_Sun, 2 Mar 2003 20:51:14 +0200512_windows-1255 OK Dennis.

Now you've come up with answerable questions. (Previously someone just stated that my ideas were shallow. I didn't feel that I had to answer that.)

Man DEFINITELY created gods including the Jewish "God". Whether a "God" created man or not (because both statements are not in contradiction), is a point of contention. I feel certain that (for example) making Jesus a divine being is a human creation, as is making Buddha one. And you feel that Yehovah is an exception ? [...] 852 68 24_re: The debate continues4_hkmg14_hkmg@attbi.com31_Sun, 02 Mar 2003 11:17:17 -0800566_us-ascii Actually, I think Abraham flunked the test. This is a guy who (just a few pages earlier in the Tanach) supposedly valued life enough to bargain with God over sparing the lives of the innocent Sodomites. But then when God asks him to kill his innocent son, he complies like a zombie, and only calls it off when he has permission. After zillions of High Holiday drashes, I decided that the question that the story begs for is why it's okay to question God's unjust command in one context but not another. Maybe God was hoping for another teaching moment [...] 921 65 25_Re: The debate continues.0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com28_Sun, 2 Mar 2003 18:20:44 EST643_US-ASCII In a message dated 3/2/03 12:25:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, DLerner569@aol.com writes:



> If it is your position that human sacrifices to God would have disappeared > without Abraham's experience, I would appreciate your explanation of how > that > would have come about.

How common was human sacrifice before this time. While my knowledge of ancient history is certainly far from expert, I am unaware of human sacrifice being common in either Mesopotamia or ancient Egypt, both of whose cultures predate Abraham. I could, of course, be wrong and if someone knows better or different I would appreciate the [...] 987 256 36_We have the power. We lack the will.0_15_NEVETS2@aol.com28_Mon, 3 Mar 2003 03:55:03 EST527_US-ASCII From: DLerner569@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2003 6:51 PM To: habonet@shamash.org

In a message dated 2/26/2003 8:17:25 AM Eastern Standard Time, Brianscoop@aol.com writes:

Since the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is unlikely to ever produce a clear and singular victor

==================================================== and Dennis responds:

We have the power. We lack the will. Better a Marshall Plan for the survivors, than a Chamberlain Plan calculated to make us victims. [...] 1244 66 20_The debate continues12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Mon, 03 Mar 2003 11:18:15 +0200392_us-ascii Richard, you asked: How common was human sacrifice before this time. While my knowledge of ancient history is certainly far from expert, I am unaware of human sacrifice being common in either Mesopotamia or ancient Egypt, both of whose cultures predate Abraham. I could, of course, be wrong and if someone knows better or different I would appreciate the fact of the situation. [...] 1311 55 12_who did what4_Stan17_stan@inter.net.il30_Mon, 3 Mar 2003 12:11:19 +0200184_iso-8859-1 If creating GOD made humans feel more secure thats fine. If God created man who choose to care for god's creations thats also fine. Why spend so much time debating the issue 1367 85 16_RE: who did what4_Meir21_meir_h@maccabi.org.il30_Mon, 3 Mar 2003 12:50:53 +0200435_windows-1255 Because it takes a man who believes in a God to kill someone like Rabin. It takes people who believe in a God to start an inquisition. True - Hitler didn't NEED the belief in a God, but he DID state that "God is with us".

Meir



If creating GOD made humans feel more secure thats fine. If God created man who choose to care for god's creations thats also fine. Why spend so much time debating the issue 1453 269 45_On liberty and faith, By Bernard Lewis/ JPost11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org30_Mon, 3 Mar 2003 06:07:41 -0600767_us-ascii

On liberty and faith, By Bernard Lewis



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bernard Lewis Feb. 27, 2003

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Any discussion of Islam and Democracy must begin with some definition of these two words, both of unstable and therefore explosive content.

By Islam one can mean both a religion, the equivalent of Christianity, and a civilization, the equivalent of Christendom. In this sense the word denotes a phenomenon of extraordinary richness, variety, and complexity; of more than 14 centuries of history; 1.3 billion people; 50-some states, about which it is very difficult to generalize. [...] 1723 71 40_Re: We have the power. We lack the will.0_18_DLerner569@aol.com28_Mon, 3 Mar 2003 08:33:49 EST496_US-ASCII Chaver Steve,

Is this not what I have repeatedly advocated as powerfully as I know how?

The presumed end game of a state for the Arab residents of the West Bank and Gaza has not happened because the rest of the Arab world does not want it to happen. Arafat ran to the Arab heads of state before delivering his "sorry, but no" message. The worst of all possible outcomes for the Arab leadership is a thriving, effective, well educated democracy -- next door to Israel. [...] 1795 136 16_Re: who did what0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com28_Mon, 3 Mar 2003 08:43:41 EST377_US-ASCII In a message dated 3/3/03 5:51:12 AM Eastern Standard Time, meir_h@maccabi.org.il writes:

> > Because it takes a man who believes in a God to kill someone like Rabin.



And that is precisely why the Akida is such a chilling story and a moral potential moral rallying point for those of us who oppose Yigal Amir and his pseudo religious games. [...] 1932 65 16_Re: who did what0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com28_Mon, 3 Mar 2003 10:12:41 EST207_US-ASCII In a message dated 3/3/2003 2:16:13 AM Pacific Standard Time, stan@inter.net.il writes:

> Why spend so much time debating the issue

I think it's a "guy thing".:) sue

> >

1998 22 36_Alzheimer's of the historical psyche0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com31_Mon, 03 Mar 2003 12:22:25 -0500605_iso-8859-1 It shocks me that, for some reason, we are incapable of learning from history and the old adage of "history repeats itself" just goes on and on. Dwspite the technical advances in science, our social skills remain at some midieval level. We can not sit down with people with whom we have disagreements and work things out without violence. Just lkook at what happened to the Native Americans--can Israel learn anything from that? What about the Crusades, Hitler, the Inquisition? What about South Africa; etc. etc. and so forth. I believe truly that there are millions of lessons just from [...] 2021 72 16_RE: who did what15_Lorraine Kotler20_lorraine@infinet.com30_Mon, 3 Mar 2003 14:51:41 -0500374_iso-8859-1 I am usually a lurker and don't like to be drawn into the fray, but some of the stuff I've been reading demands a reply.

First of all, don't confuse fanatic egotists who use religion as an excuse to foist their beliefs on others with a true person of faith. A truly religious person feels the fatherhood of God implies the brotherhood of all mankind. [...] 2094 51 16_Re: who did what11_Noam Stopak20_nstopak@orionsci.com31_Mon, 03 Mar 2003 15:04:09 -0500447_us-ascii Hello Lorraine, and welcome.

Lorraine Kotler wrote:

> I am usually a lurker and don't like to be drawn into the fray, but some > of the stuff I've been reading demands a reply. > > First of all, don't confuse fanatic egotists who use religion as an > excuse to foist their beliefs on others with a true person of faith. A > truly religious person feels the fatherhood of God implies the > brotherhood of all mankind. > [...] 2146 156 16_Re: who did what0_14_LHIAM1@aol.com28_Mon, 3 Mar 2003 15:09:17 EST352_US-ASCII In a message dated 3/3/03 2:56:10 PM Eastern Standard Time, lorraine@infinet.com writes:

> > > First of all, don't confuse fanatic egotists who use religion as an > excuse to foist their beliefs on others with a true person of faith. A > truly religious person feels the fatherhood of God implies the > brotherhood of all mankind. [...] 2303 29 16_RE: who did what4_Meir21_meir_h@maccabi.org.il30_Mon, 3 Mar 2003 23:18:33 +0200505_windows-1255 Yes we have Lorraine. Thank you for reminding me who you are. Can you e-mail me personally ?

> Meir, you and I seem to have traveled very far in opposite directions > since our friendship so many years ago. > > Lorraine

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 2333 74 16_RE: who did what11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com30_Mon, 3 Mar 2003 13:22:00 -0800670_us-ascii Noam

?

Steve

-----Original Message----- From: owner-habonet@shamash.org [mailto:owner-habonet@shamash.org]On Behalf Of Noam Stopak Sent: Monday, March 03, 2003 12:04 PM To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: Re: who did what



Hello Lorraine, and welcome.

Lorraine Kotler wrote:

> I am usually a lurker and don't like to be drawn into the fray, but some > of the stuff I've been reading demands a reply. > > First of all, don't confuse fanatic egotists who use religion as an > excuse to foist their beliefs on others with a true person of faith. A > truly religious person feels the fatherhood of God implies the [...] 2408 58 16_Re: who did what0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com28_Mon, 3 Mar 2003 16:22:03 EST153_US-ASCII In a message dated 3/3/03 4:21:06 PM Eastern Standard Time, kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com writes:



> Noam > > ? > > Steve >

?? 2467 81 16_Re: who did what11_Noam Stopak20_nstopak@orionsci.com31_Mon, 03 Mar 2003 16:33:16 -0500612_us-ascii On Feb 14 Steve Klein wrote:

"PS Please allow my vote in favor of not using Habonet for petty sniping."

Judging by his "message" below I can only assume he has changed his vote. Viva la difference!

Noam

Steve Klein wrote:

> Noam > > ? > > Steve > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-habonet@shamash.org [mailto:owner-habonet@shamash.org]On > Behalf Of Noam Stopak > Sent: Monday, March 03, 2003 12:04 PM > To: habonet@shamash.org > Subject: Re: who did what > > Hello Lorraine, and welcome. > > Lorraine Kotler wrote: > > > I am usually a lurker and don't [...] 2549 77 16_Re: who did what0_18_Brianscoop@aol.com28_Mon, 3 Mar 2003 16:34:31 EST226_US-ASCII In a message dated 3/3/03 4:23:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, Richardrdsmith@aol.com writes:

> > >> Noam >> >> ? >> >> Steve >> > > ??

!

----------------------------- Brian Cooper brianscoop@aol.com 2627 83 16_Re: who did what0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com28_Mon, 3 Mar 2003 16:47:40 EST291_US-ASCII In a message dated 3/3/03 4:35:04 PM Eastern Standard Time, Brianscoop@aol.com writes:



> In a message dated 3/3/03 4:23:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, > Richardrdsmith@aol.com writes: > > >> >> >>> Noam >>> >>> ? >>> >>> Steve >>> >> >> >> ?? > > ! >

: ; " ' , . 2711 33 16_Re: who did what0_18_DLerner569@aol.com28_Mon, 3 Mar 2003 23:12:18 EST581_US-ASCII Noam,

It is always with hesitancy and apprehension for what will follow when I engage you, but... always a but... I believe the reference to being created in God's image is not an anthropomorphic reference, but in the context of the creation myth a reference to the creative drive of humanity. As God created the earth and its components it is humanity which like God is capable of creating and modifying creation to suit his needs and will. With the addition of free will the question becomes whether we will follow the path God has taken for the creation or [...] 2745 54 16_Re: who did what0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com28_Mon, 3 Mar 2003 23:25:16 EST299_US-ASCII In a message dated 3/3/03 11:15:24 PM Eastern Standard Time, DLerner569@aol.com writes:



> With the > addition of free will the question becomes whether we will follow the path > God has taken for the creation

Does this mean mess up a lot, I think we do that just fine. 2800 32 16_Re: who did what0_18_DLerner569@aol.com28_Mon, 3 Mar 2003 23:39:40 EST549_US-ASCII Richard,

I believe the central notion of Judaism is that we are to search for the ways to complete the creation consistent with God's plan. If your message suggests that humanity has not done a very good job of that to date, I would whole heartedly agree. I believe that as Jews we have a continuing pattern of well intentioned mistakes from which we can, if we choose, learn much about where to look. In the overall sense we have it seems to me made some degree of progress, but since I can't know the goal, I can't assess how [...] 2833 53 16_Re: who did what0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com28_Mon, 3 Mar 2003 23:42:15 EST334_US-ASCII In a message dated 3/3/03 11:40:36 PM Eastern Standard Time, DLerner569@aol.com writes:



> If your message > suggests that humanity has not done a very good job of that to date

No, I meant to suggest that God messed up and we are continuing his way of doing things just fine by continuing to mess up too. 2887 79 16_Re: who did what0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com28_Tue, 4 Mar 2003 00:28:55 EST418_US-ASCII In a message dated 3/3/2003 8:40:42 PM Pacific Standard Time, DLerner569@aol.com writes:

> I believe that as Jews we have a continuing pattern > of well intentioned mistakes from which we can, if we choose, learn much > about where to look. In the overall sense we have it seems to me made some > > degree of progress, but since I can't know the goal, I can't assess how far > > we have come. > > [...] 2967 64 16_Re: who did what15_Lorraine Kotler20_lorraine@infinet.com31_Tue, 04 Mar 2003 02:54:55 -0500346_us-ascii



Noam Stopak wrote:

> Hello Lorraine, and welcome. > > Hello and thank you. > > > > > What about all those religions who insist on converting or killing the infidel? I think they would take offense at your assertion they are not true people of faith. In fact, they'd probably have to kill you for saying that. [...] 3032 90 16_RE: who did what4_Meir21_meir_h@maccabi.org.il30_Tue, 4 Mar 2003 10:22:26 +0200396_windows-1255 I have an original view about free will, but I guess I won't venture it. 1. It's interesting, but not that critical (as the question of who did what). There are some interesting legal conclusions from this point of view though. 2. Since I don't usually write a book about my point of view, but present it in the shortest form possible I might again be accused of "shallowness". [...] 3123 144 16_RE: who did what11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com30_Tue, 4 Mar 2003 03:34:05 -0800521_windows-1255 MessageMeir

I, for one, hate to think that one of us (or more) have been intimidated into silence. E illigitimi non carborundum (or something like that). Scr_w the name-callers and intimidators. 1) I think the attack on your ideas puts you into good company and 2) articulate doesn't mean intelligent. Millions of terrible ideas have been articulately propounded. (For the usual snipers out there, no, I don't have statistical proof that it's in the millions.) Anyway, Meir, welcome to the fold. [...] 3268 254 30_FW: A Brief History of Germany11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com30_Tue, 4 Mar 2003 03:41:45 -0800475_iso-8859-1 Of course, this is not the only way to view Germany's recent history.

For entertainment value only.

Steve -----Original Message----- From: Harry Gluckman [mailto:hwgluckman@zapcom.net] Sent: Monday, March 03, 2003 10:29 PM To: hwgluckman@zapcom.net Subject: A Brief History of Germany



A Brief History of Germany

1871 - Bismark founds modern Germany.

1890 - Bismark sacked, warmonger Wilhelm II takes direct control. [...] 3523 56 16_Re: who did what13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Tue, 04 Mar 2003 07:20:53 -0500575_us-ascii Dear Dennis,

You write: I believe the reference to being created in God's image is not an anthropomorphic reference, but in the context of the creation myth a reference to the creative drive of humanity.

Are you claiming that this is what was meant when the words were originally written or how they are interpreted by Jews today, 1000 years ago or even 2000 years ago? We have come along way since the destruction of the second temple. The God who looked favorably on people if they burned meat for him was envisioned as having a nose, if not by [...] 3580 83 16_Re: who did what11_Noam Stopak20_nstopak@orionsci.com31_Tue, 04 Mar 2003 07:56:19 -0500543_us-ascii



Lorraine Kotler wrote:

> Noam Stopak wrote: > > > Hello Lorraine, and welcome. > > > > Hello and thank you. > > > > > > > > > What about all those religions who insist on converting or killing the infidel? I think they would take offense at your assertion they are not true people of faith. In fact, they'd probably have to kill you for saying that. > > I was referring to the religions that, like ours, are essentially based on standards of morality, in which love of God is reflected in love of mankind. [...] 3664 69 16_Re: who did what0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com28_Tue, 4 Mar 2003 09:00:05 EST408_US-ASCII In a message dated 3/4/03 3:23:03 AM Eastern Standard Time, meir_h@maccabi.org.il writes:

> > I have an original view about free will, but I guess I won't venture it.



If you at this late don't have a stateable view about free will, you have missed the last 50 years of psychology, physics, psychology and philosophy. I would suggest you catch up before going on to post things. 3734 82 16_RE: who did what4_Meir21_meir_h@maccabi.org.il30_Tue, 4 Mar 2003 16:13:06 +0200320_windows-1255 See. I didn't say that my view wasn't stateable. And already I'm slammed.



> If you at this late don't have a stateable view about free will, you have missed the last 50 years of psychology, physics, psychology and philosophy. I would suggest you catch up before going on to post things. [...] 3817 41 16_Re: who did what0_18_DLerner569@aol.com28_Tue, 4 Mar 2003 09:19:06 EST392_US-ASCII Richard,

I don't know you, and I can't assess whether your response comes from an excess of cynicism, sarcasm, anger, sadness, or simple mistake. The God we've created cares for us collectively and individually. The God responsible for creation and all that is possible is only responsible for the limitations of possibility within which we, and all of creation operate. [...] 3859 35 16_Re: who did what0_18_DLerner569@aol.com28_Tue, 4 Mar 2003 09:27:57 EST515_US-ASCII Susie,

In the beginning we find ourselves (humans) in a natural state, ignorant of the difference between good and evil and in a child parent relationship with God. When we become aware of the difference between good and evil our relationship changes and we become independent of our parent/creator, able to choose. Being able to choose means being (no pun intended) able to choose evil, which Cain does. And which we (as humans) continue to do, though with ever greater awareness of its evil. [...] 3895 25 16_Re: who did what0_18_DLerner569@aol.com28_Tue, 4 Mar 2003 09:30:39 EST697_US-ASCII Dear Lorraine,

Please do not return to the shadows. Your light is welcome and needed here.

Dennis

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/

* * FREE JEWISH LEARNING * * Shamash invites you to join MyJewishLearning.com, a comprehensive, objective, authoritative and interactive learning resource in all areas of Judaism. Free membership via http://www.myjewishlearning.com/shamash ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 3921 39 16_Re: who did what0_18_DLerner569@aol.com28_Tue, 4 Mar 2003 09:44:21 EST621_US-ASCII Dear Judy,

I can't speak for people today let alone 1000 years ago. What I suspect however is that a small number of deep thinkers understood the meaning and intent to be metaphorical, while the great preponderance were confined by their circumstances to the literal.

Strangely, I have had the strongest confirmation of this from the Catholic clergy. On every occasion I get I inquire about the literal belief among lay Catholics in the virgin birth, the resurrection, and the divinity of Jesus. The clergy, readily even anxiously admit that these articles of faith are not facts in the sense [...] 3961 68 16_Re: who did what0_18_DLerner569@aol.com28_Tue, 4 Mar 2003 09:46:33 EST591_US-ASCII In a message dated 3/4/2003 8:03:47 AM Eastern Standard Time, nstopak@orionsci.com writes:



> Well you may have a point - modern technology and the current high > population levels do seem to give modern murderers an advantage. Since > you qualify you claim above, please allow me to do the same. Let's think > in terms of percentage of the world population at the time. Think about > the populations which the Europeans "civilized" as they explored the globe. > Asia has similar examples. I think you will find that the "my way or the > highway" or actually "my [...] 4030 85 16_Re: who did what0_18_DLerner569@aol.com28_Tue, 4 Mar 2003 09:59:30 EST447_US-ASCII In a message dated 3/4/2003 2:33:59 AM Eastern Standard Time, lorraine@infinet.com writes:



> . I count Islam among this group. It is one of our daughter religions. The > fact that a group of fanatic egomaniacs has taken over a substantial number > of its followers does not negate its essential validity. It is not love of > God that makes a person a religious fanatic who will kill anyone who > disagrees > with him. [...] 4116 99 16_Re: who did what0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com28_Tue, 4 Mar 2003 10:29:13 EST605_US-ASCII In a message dated 3/4/2003 6:28:48 AM Pacific Standard Time, DLerner569@aol.com writes:

> Being able to choose means being (no pun intended) able to choose > evil, which Cain does. And which we (as humans) continue to do, though > with > ever greater awareness of its evil. > > It is not entirely clear to me that Cain "chose" evil when he murdered Abel; in today's courts, it may have been explained as a "moment of passion" or "temporary insanity." I still believe that, despite amazing technological advances, we are still babies when it comes to human interactive communication. [...] 4216 37 15_Thank you ALiya0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com28_Tue, 4 Mar 2003 10:32:44 EST154_US-ASCII Thanks for posting Orli's project. It is a breath of fresh air--I wilkl certainly promotte this at work, since we use Office Depot a lot.sue(sie) 4254 2241 12_un subscribe24_Suzanne Edmunds & Family19_edmunds@csurf.co.za31_Tue, 04 Mar 2003 07:44:23 +0200592_us-ascii Please un subscribe me

Thanks



At 12:22 AM 3/4/03 -0500, you wrote:

> HABONET Digest 2516 > >Topics covered in this issue include: > > 1) We have the power. We lack the will. > by NEVETS2@aol.com > 2) The debate continues > by Amnon Hadary > 3) who did what > by "Stan" > 4) RE: who did what > by "Meir" > 5) On liberty and faith, By Bernard Lewis/ JPost > by "Roz Barland" > 6) Re: We have the power. We lack the will. > by DLerner569@aol.com > 7) Re: who did [...] 6496 51 12_Image of GOD4_Stan17_stan@inter.net.il30_Tue, 4 Mar 2003 10:10:18 +0200172_iso-8859-1 " Man created in the image of God doesn't mean that God has arms and legs and is bald. It could mean that MAN ia like god in that he watchs over what was created 6548 26 16_Re: who did what0_18_DLerner569@aol.com28_Tue, 4 Mar 2003 14:06:44 EST435_US-ASCII Susie, I hope venting makes you feel better, but since the issues that concern you are real and immediate, I doubt its much help.

Happy to listen, Dennis

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 6575 26 16_Re: Image of GOD0_18_DLerner569@aol.com28_Tue, 4 Mar 2003 14:11:21 EST714_US-ASCII Stan,

I like it, but what evidence do you have to suggest that either God or man has the trait you suggest?

Dennis

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/

* * FREE JEWISH LEARNING * * Shamash invites you to join MyJewishLearning.com, a comprehensive, objective, authoritative and interactive learning resource in all areas of Judaism. Free membership via http://www.myjewishlearning.com/shamash ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 6602 34 16_Re: who did what15_Lorraine Kotler20_lorraine@infinet.com31_Tue, 04 Mar 2003 16:11:54 -0500504_us-ascii



DLerner569@aol.com wrote:

> Dear Lorraine, > > Please do not return to the shadows. Your light is welcome and needed here. > > Dennis

Thank you so much, Dennis. What a lovely thing to say!

> >

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 6637 88 16_Re: who did what15_Lorraine Kotler20_lorraine@infinet.com31_Tue, 04 Mar 2003 16:18:18 -0500590_us-ascii DLerner569@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 3/4/2003 8:03:47 AM Eastern Standard Time, > nstopak@orionsci.com writes: > > > >> Well you may have a point - modern technology and the current high >> population levels do seem to give modern murderers an advantage. >> Since you qualify you claim above, please allow me to do the same. >> Let's think in terms of percentage of the world population at the >> time. Think about the populations which the Europeans "civilized" >> as they explored the globe. Asia has similar examples. I think you >> will find that the "my [...] 6726 59 16_Re: who did what15_Lorraine Kotler20_lorraine@infinet.com31_Tue, 04 Mar 2003 16:24:36 -0500536_us-ascii



DLerner569@aol.com wrote:

> He rejects Christianity as a perversion of monotheism and seeks to > rejoin the Arabs with their monotheistic cousins. He is rejected by > the Temple clan, He in turn rejects them and seeks vengeance and > vindication.

Yes, Dennis, that is true. First Mohammed and centuries later Martin Luther tried to court the Jews, but our stubborn, loyal people remained true to our vision, our faith and our God. These rejections turned love to fierce hatred in both cases. [...] 6786 55 16_Re: who did what0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com28_Tue, 4 Mar 2003 16:18:53 EST403_US-ASCII In a message dated 3/4/03 2:33:59 AM Eastern Standard Time, lorraine@infinet.com writes:



> BTW, does Stalin's corruption mean that Communism as a philosophy evil? I > don't think so.

I don't think that "Stalin's corruption," means that Communism is an evil philosophy. It is a false philosophy, primarily because it allows people like Stalin to work their magic so easily. 6842 31 16_Re: who did what0_18_DLerner569@aol.com28_Tue, 4 Mar 2003 16:30:05 EST502_US-ASCII Lorraine,

As Jews, if we know anything, it is that giving freely of love, does nothing to increase the chances of its return in kind. Unlike the Muslims and Protestants, we have done a most remarkable job of the Jesus ideal of returning love for hate. We don't do it for reward, but to keep hope alive. Needless to note the world would be a much different place if others responded to rejection with increased affection and effort to earn respect, rather than withdrawal and hate. [...] 6874 46 16_Re: who did what0_18_DLerner569@aol.com28_Tue, 4 Mar 2003 16:43:03 EST387_US-ASCII Lorraine,

Tsk, tsk. You can't do that. You can't change the frame of reference in the middle of the "arguement."

The subject was has religious zealotry and fanaticism resulted in more deaths than political dementia and nationalist wars. The numbers produced suggested that on the basis of absolute numbers nationalism, fascism, and communism are the leaders. [...] 6921 44 16_Re: who did what15_Lorraine Kotler20_lorraine@infinet.com31_Tue, 04 Mar 2003 17:05:38 -0500570_us-ascii > And again it seems to me you are propounding a self aggrandizing view that your religious values are moral and that other religions aren't valid. >

Noam,

The issue you raise is a critical one. We walk a narrow tightrope between imposing our culture on other cultures and accepting the concept of moral relativism. While it is true that every culture has a right to its own mores that derives from its unique history, it is also true that there are -- must be -- some absolutes that apply not only to us but to everyone. Moral relativism is [...] 6966 36 16_Re: who did what0_18_DLerner569@aol.com28_Tue, 4 Mar 2003 16:51:14 EST455_US-ASCII Richard,

Sam's note to me last night made reference to fascism. I understand Fascism to be a relationship between the government and the governed where the governed exist for the benefit of the government. Bees in a hive, or ants in a colony. While communism expresses revulsion at Fascism, it seems to me that it is merely a disguised form of Fascism. The state is everything, the people are instruments and implements of the state. [...] 7003 47 16_Re: who did what13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Tue, 04 Mar 2003 17:40:34 -0500460_us-ascii Dear Dennis,

Mohammed hated the wealthy Jews because they sold him out in Medina during a war and it caused him to lose the battle.

Please list 5 instances prior to WWII when the Jews as a people returned hate with love. I personally can't think of one. I think we are pretty good at hating too a la "remember to blot out the name of Amalek." I am not proud of it but I'm not going to rewrite history to suit what I wish were true. [...] 7051 51 16_Re: who did what0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com28_Tue, 4 Mar 2003 17:55:33 EST195_US-ASCII In a message dated 3/4/03 4:59:07 PM Eastern Standard Time, DLerner569@aol.com writes:



> Dennis >

I agreed with everything u said except that Castro is benevolent?? 7103 80 16_Re: who did what0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com28_Tue, 4 Mar 2003 18:06:29 EST560_US-ASCII In a message dated 3/4/03 4:46:06 PM Eastern Standard Time, DLerner569@aol.com writes:



> The subject was has religious zealotry and fanaticism resulted in more > deaths > than political dementia and nationalist wars.

You see to me, there is little if any difference between political extremism (communism, nazism) and religious fanaticism. They both stem from the absolute certainty that there is an absolute truth and the proponents of either the political point of view or the religious belief are sure that they know it. [...] 7184 34 2_re0_17_REBLEEDAN@aol.com28_Tue, 4 Mar 2003 18:16:30 EST30_US-ASCII please unsubscribe me 7219 27 16_Re: who did what12_David Fleiss20_dfleiss@pipeline.com31_Tue, 04 Mar 2003 18:41:55 -0500745_us-ascii It's a little bit off-topic, but here's a list of the world's worst mass murderers:

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/021018.html

David



------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/

* * FREE JEWISH LEARNING * * Shamash invites you to join MyJewishLearning.com, a comprehensive, objective, authoritative and interactive learning resource in all areas of Judaism. Free membership via http://www.myjewishlearning.com/shamash ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 7247 50 16_Re: who did what13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Tue, 04 Mar 2003 20:24:46 -0500431_us-ascii Dear David,

Thank you for contributing some facts to our discussion.

I am surprised that the ethnic murders during Indian/Pakistani partition didn't make the list. I thought that 1.5 million people were killed during that period--but maybe it didn't make the lists because the "honors" were split between the Pakistanis ( killing Sikhs and HIndus) and the Indians (killing Moslems and sometimes Sikhs). [...] 7298 84 29_Anthropomorphism and Politics14_Martin Goodman26_martinjgoodman@hotmail.com31_Wed, 05 Mar 2003 02:38:13 +0000468_- 4 March 2003

Golly I love the HABONET gang! Where else can I find a spirited debate regarding whether Judaism embraces an anthropomorphic concept of God (and the associated Christian quicksand), especially when the answer has political consequences?!

Anyway, it is conceivable that Jews originally believed that God had human form. Certainly, passages in Tanach support this viewpoint. I quote from Shirat HaYam (Exodus 15, miscellaneous verses): [...] 7383 55 7_Fascism4_Meir21_meir_h@maccabi.org.il30_Wed, 5 Mar 2003 13:41:20 +0200286_windows-1255 I'd like to help clear some concepts.

Every system can be misused, and most of them have been. This includes Democracy. We are well aware of the ills of democracy, but I suppose that most of us are resigned to the idea that it is less bad than the other forms. [...] 7439 34 15_The golden rule4_Meir21_meir_h@maccabi.org.il30_Wed, 5 Mar 2003 13:46:12 +0200395_windows-1255 Another point that I've learned.

The golden rules have flaws. In essence they could be universal values especially if they were changed as follows. Compare these with the original.

The Christian rule "should" read: Do unto others what THEY would want you to do unto THEM.

The Jewish edict "should" read: What is hateful unto YOUR NEIGHBOR do not unto hir. [...] 7474 65 11_Re: Fascism13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Wed, 05 Mar 2003 07:32:53 -0500656_iso-8859-1 fas·cism Pronunciation Key (fshzm)

(Italian fascismo, from fascio, group, from Late Latin fascium, from Latin fascis, bundle)

Word History: It is fitting that the name of an authoritarian political movement like Fascism, founded in 1919 by Benito Mussolini, should come from the name of a symbol of authority. The Italian name of the movement, fascismo, is derived from fascio, “bundle, (political) group,” but also refers to the movement's emblem, the fasces, a bundle of rods bound around a projecting axe-head that was carried before an ancient Roman magistrate by an attendant as a symbol of authority and power. The name [...] 7540 42 16_Re: who did what0_18_DLerner569@aol.com28_Wed, 5 Mar 2003 08:28:40 EST610_US-ASCII Dear Judy,

there are literally millions of such instances as you request. The reason you can't recall them is because they are not recorded in history books -- the actions of individuals rarely are. Not all Jews, hell, not most Jews, are embodiments of Judaism. Most are just all too ordinary people trying to make their way in the world while wearing a pejorative label, and trying to think of it as a blessing. nonetheless, to the extent of their embodiment of their Jewishness, they return kindness for hate, they seek understanding for prejudice, they attempt to explain themselves to [...] 7583 23 16_Re: who did what0_18_DLerner569@aol.com28_Wed, 5 Mar 2003 08:30:15 EST619_US-ASCII Richard, Compared to Bush? Dennis

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/

* * FREE JEWISH LEARNING * * Shamash invites you to join MyJewishLearning.com, a comprehensive, objective, authoritative and interactive learning resource in all areas of Judaism. Free membership via http://www.myjewishlearning.com/shamash ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 7607 68 16_Re: who did what0_18_DLerner569@aol.com28_Wed, 5 Mar 2003 08:35:28 EST584_US-ASCII In a message dated 3/4/2003 6:07:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, Richardrdsmith@aol.com writes:



> They both stem from the absolute certainty that there is an absolute truth > and the proponents of either the political point of view or the religious > belief are sure that they know it. >

Unless the absolute truth is that "I have the power and control, and I'm going to rule the world if I can" I don't understand how the political folks and a lock on the truth line up. If ideologues are your believers in absolute truth, I would say first that your [...] 7676 34 33_Re: Anthropomorphism and Politics0_18_DLerner569@aol.com28_Wed, 5 Mar 2003 08:52:47 EST511_US-ASCII Marty, Blasphemy though it may be. not all peace is good. Since we cannot assess what the actual outcome of the Oslo accords might have brought in the way of peace. It is possible that Rabin's assassination prevented not peace, but disaster. Surely if the Oslo process had played out as we intended for it to, we would be at peace now with our Palestinian neighbors, bit it takes two, and the other side has not shown great reliability in matching our intentions, at least when it comes to peace. [...] 7711 29 11_Re: Fascism0_18_DLerner569@aol.com28_Wed, 5 Mar 2003 08:57:07 EST546_US-ASCII Meir,

As always, I appreciate your erudition.

My ad hoc definition of Fascism had people serving the state rather than vice versa. I don't immediately see a conflict between my definition and the one you have supplied. Can you comment, please.

Dennis

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 7741 31 16_Re: who did what11_Noam Stopak20_nstopak@orionsci.com31_Wed, 05 Mar 2003 08:57:33 -0500345_us-ascii DLerner569@aol.com wrote:

> Dear Judy, > > ... Any day's reading of the digest will attest to > that. We are so Jewish here, that we regularly eschew our collective self > interest in favor of "fairness" and "equity." > > Dennis

not to mention the arguments in favor of transfer and concentration camps and the like. [...] 7773 25 19_Re: The golden rule0_18_DLerner569@aol.com28_Wed, 5 Mar 2003 08:58:40 EST653_US-ASCII Meir,

I am content to leave well enough alone.

Dennis

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/

* * FREE JEWISH LEARNING * * Shamash invites you to join MyJewishLearning.com, a comprehensive, objective, authoritative and interactive learning resource in all areas of Judaism. Free membership via http://www.myjewishlearning.com/shamash ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 7799 30 11_Re: Fascism0_18_DLerner569@aol.com28_Wed, 5 Mar 2003 09:05:41 EST295_US-ASCII Judy,

More erudition. Is it worthy of note that the bundle of rods you describe figures prominently on the obverse of the US dime?

Just to add my tiny bit to this thread -- the bundle of sticks without the ax is a faggot, which is a measure of fire wood or kindling. [...] 7830 42 16_Re: who did what0_18_DLerner569@aol.com28_Wed, 5 Mar 2003 09:17:51 EST584_US-ASCII Noam,

Touche.

In my own defense, let me say that a close reading of my postings over time on this subject will show (I hope) that they are made in the context of how the world actually works, not on the basis of my Jewishness or lack thereof.

I believe a further review of my postings will show an empathy for the plight of non-political Palestinians, and explorations of how we might reconcile with our half-brothers and sisters. I am possessed of ethical humanism to a degree which materially impedes my service of myself, but not so much that it [...] 7873 25 9_Mea Culpa0_18_DLerner569@aol.com28_Wed, 5 Mar 2003 09:21:28 EST495_US-ASCII Apologies to all. We are on a thread that tugs at me so I'm afraid I have filled your mailboxes with messages. I will endeavor to restrain myself for a while. You can see how well I am doing already ; -- ))

Dennis

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 7899 28 11_RE: Fascism4_Meir21_meir_h@maccabi.org.il30_Wed, 5 Mar 2003 16:27:59 +0200299_windows-1255 I agree that in Fascism the people serve the state as a matter of part of the ideology. Theoretical Marxian communism on the other hand talked about the "withering of the State" and giving ALL the power to the smaller people's soviets. In practice, of course, we saw the opposite. [...] 7928 60 33_Re: Anthropomorphism and Politics0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com28_Wed, 5 Mar 2003 10:25:05 EST641_US-ASCII In a message dated 3/4/2003 7:05:37 PM Pacific Standard Time, martinjgoodman@hotmail.com writes:

> I quote from > Shirat HaYam (Exodus 15, miscellaneous verses): >

Marty!- I remember a conversation we had in a workshop class discussing what the lovers would look like from Shir HaShirim if they were drawn real (Your neck is like a gazelle, etc.) and we would laugh--but the poetry is some of the most beautiful around--using what you see to symbolize what you can't was and is still an intellectually literary tool...I have actually seen some amazing artists' rendition of SHir HaShirim and they are beautiful...susie 7989 451 47_FW: In Case You Were Worried About Their Rights11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com30_Wed, 5 Mar 2003 09:05:02 -0800516_iso-8859-1 It would be a shame to miss this one.

Steve -----Original Message----- From: Harry Gluckman [mailto:hwgluckman@zapcom.net] Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2003 8:44 AM To: hwgluckman@zapcom.net Subject: Fw: In Case You Were Worried About Their Rights



http://www.guardian.co.uk/Print/0,3858,4617629,00.html 'We left out nuclear targets, for now' The masterminds of Holy Tuesday - 11 September - frankly describe their lives as professional terrorists: 'It is what we do for a living' [...] 8441 204 37_FW: FYI- Film L'Chayim Comrade Stalin11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com30_Wed, 5 Mar 2003 09:15:55 -0800825_UTF-8 See you there!

Steve -----Original Message----- From: Search4news@aol.com [mailto:Search4news@aol.com] Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 7:05 PM To: Search4news@aol.com Subject: FYI- Film L'Chayim Comrade Stalin



WHAT: Film, L'chayim Comrade Stalin WHERE: Music Hall 3, Beverly Hills- Laemmle Theaters WHEN: Film Opens: 03/05/03

93 Minutes • Rating Unknown CinemaGuild Source: http://www.laemmle.com/films/l/lchayim.html













Visit Official Website! In Russian & Yiddish w/ English subittles. In April 1928, twenty years before the founding of Israel, Joseph Stalin created the world's first Jewish homeland in the Soviet Union, in a barren stretch of land on Siberia's Far Eastern border. Although conceived as a solution to the 'Jewish [...] 8646 49 11_Re: Fascism13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Wed, 05 Mar 2003 12:44:19 -0500539_us-ascii Dear Dennis,

On the slang use of the word faggot: Perfects in English Boarding schools( who were especially trusted and honored seniors given leadership over their houses) had younger boys who brought them firewood and light their fires each afternoon and did other chores. THey were referred to as "faggots" because they carried the bundles (faggots) of wood. Part of their duties (non official) were often sexual and hence "faggot" became a term for any male who took a submissive sexual role relative to other men. [...] 8696 40 51_Re: FW: In Case You Were Worried About Their Rights11_Noam Stopak20_nstopak@orionsci.com31_Wed, 05 Mar 2003 13:04:34 -0500668_us-ascii

You're the attorney Steve - isn't this what is called "hearsay evidence"?

Steve Klein wrote:

> It would be a shame to miss this one.Steve > -----Original Message----- > From: Harry Gluckman [mailto:hwgluckman@zapcom.net] > Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2003 8:44 AM > To: hwgluckman@zapcom.net > Subject: Fw: In Case You Were Worried About Their Rights > > http://www.guardian.co.uk/Print/0,3858,4617629,00.html'We left out nuclear targets, for now' > > The masterminds of Holy Tuesday - 11 September - frankly describe their lives as professional terrorists: 'It is what we do for a living' > > Tuesday March 4, 2003 > The Guardian > [...] 8737 23 11_Re: Fascism13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Wed, 05 Mar 2003 13:18:40 -0500681_us-ascii The word should have been "prefects." Spell check sometimes does too good of a job.

Judy

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/

* * FREE JEWISH LEARNING * * Shamash invites you to join MyJewishLearning.com, a comprehensive, objective, authoritative and interactive learning resource in all areas of Judaism. Free membership via http://www.myjewishlearning.com/shamash ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 8761 345 0_12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Wed, 05 Mar 2003 22:37:23 +0200600_us-ascii Dennis You wrote >In the beginning we find ourselves (humans) in a natural state, ignorant of the difference between good and evil and in a child parent relationship with God. When we become aware of the difference between good and evil our relationship changes and we become independent of our parent/creator, able to choose. Being able to choose means being (no pun intended) able to choose evil, which Cain does. And which we (as humans) continue to do, though with ever greater awareness of its evil. There is a basic difference between choices of good and evil, and Jewish history [...] 9107 58 16_Re: who did what0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com28_Wed, 5 Mar 2003 20:13:05 EST323_US-ASCII In a message dated 3/5/03 8:31:22 AM Eastern Standard Time, DLerner569@aol.com writes:



> Richard, > Compared to Bush? > Dennis >

I'm assuming this is just a joke. You are not really comparing Casto to Bush because that would rank up there with the most absurd statements ever made on Habonet. 9166 60 16_Re: who did what0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com28_Wed, 5 Mar 2003 20:14:04 EST506_US-ASCII In a message dated 3/5/03 8:36:20 AM Eastern Standard Time, DLerner569@aol.com writes:



> Unless the absolute truth is that "I have the power and control, and I'm > going to rule the world if I can" I don't understand how the political > folks and a lock on the truth line up. If ideologues are your believers in > absolute truth, I would say first that your exaggerating about "truth" > being their lodestone, and second, the light side has plenty of ideologues > as well. > > [...] 9227 47 5_trait4_Stan17_stan@inter.net.il30_Thu, 6 Mar 2003 11:34:07 +020066_iso-8859-1 Dennis, what trait do you think I WAS SUGGESTING ? Stan 9275 26 11_Re: Fascism0_18_DLerner569@aol.com28_Thu, 6 Mar 2003 11:18:00 EST460_US-ASCII Judy,

I'm sure you know that I did not mean to imply any connection between Gays and or US coinage and fascism or vice versa. The bit about the school boys is interesting. Dennis

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 9302 63 9_Re: trait0_18_DLerner569@aol.com28_Thu, 6 Mar 2003 11:39:01 EST562_US-ASCII Stan,

Your message suggested:

MAN ia like god in that he watchs over what was created

I suggested that neither the God of Creation or Man created is watchful of what they create, and certainly not attentive to the ramifications of those creative acts. The God of Creation has an advantage since nothing is loss, only changed in organization. Since the God of Creation always trumps the God of our creation, the wishful thinking in terms of a watchful, concerned parent and protector has led to great disillusionment and anger. [...] 9366 341 26_FW: A letter I sent to CBS11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com30_Thu, 6 Mar 2003 10:24:28 -0800490_iso-8859-1 (Yael is a close friend, and obviously sesitive to the terrible handling of the piece in question at CBS.

Steve



-----Original Message----- From: marcia plager [mailto:mplager@socal.rr.com] Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2003 7:35 PM To: Steve Klein Subject: Fw: A letter I sent to CBS





----- Original Message ----- From: Yael Schnall To: Marcia Plager (E-mail) Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2003 10:46 AM Subject: A letter I sent to CBS [...] 9708 81 51_RE: FW: In Case You Were Worried About Their Rights11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com30_Thu, 6 Mar 2003 10:46:03 -0800594_US-ASCII Dear Noam

In response to your question (never be afraid of asking questions, Noam; there are no dumb questions)....where was I?....oh yes..in response to your question: Yes.

Always glad to help.

Steve







ps: Let me add this disclaimer: Most of the information I have gathered over the last sixty years has been "hearsay". Therefore, Noam, so that you don't have to ask each time, please insert an understood "This is hearsay" before anything I choose to pass along. Or, as an alternative, just skip my stuff. I can live with that. [...] 9790 49 23_FW: Attorneys for Peace11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com30_Thu, 6 Mar 2003 11:06:23 -0800445_iso-8859-1



-----Original Message----- From: Steve Klein [mailto:kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com] Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 11:05 AM To: habonet@shamash.com Subject: Attorneys for Peace



Noam

pps When did I become an attorney? I have never been, am or will be, an attorney. I have never desired to be one, either. If this was another glib "gotcha", then congratulations, you got me. Boy, is my face red! [...] 9840 77 27_Re: FW: Attorneys for Peace11_Noam Stopak20_nstopak@orionsci.com31_Thu, 06 Mar 2003 14:34:54 -0500549_us-ascii Steve Klein wrote:

> -----Original Message----- > From: Steve Klein [mailto:kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com] > Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 11:05 AM > To: habonet@shamash.com > Subject: Attorneys for Peace > > Noam > > pps When did I become an attorney? I have never been, am or will be, an > attorney. I have never desired to be one, either. If this was another glib > "gotcha", then congratulations, you got me. Boy, is my face red! > > Your bud > > Steve > > By the way, what is your point? I think it would be a lot easier for [...] 9918 59 16_Re: who did what11_Noam Stopak20_nstopak@orionsci.com31_Thu, 06 Mar 2003 14:59:04 -0500550_us-ascii Lorraine Kotler wrote:

> > And again it seems to me you are propounding a self aggrandizing view that your religious values are moral and that other religions aren't valid. > > > > Noam, > > The issue you raise is a critical one. We walk a narrow tightrope between imposing our culture on other cultures and accepting the concept of moral relativism. While it is true that every culture has a right to its own mores that derives from its unique history, it is also true that there are -- must be -- some absolutes that apply not [...] 9978 34 21_[Fwd: continued bias]11_Noam Stopak20_nstopak@orionsci.com31_Thu, 06 Mar 2003 15:33:15 -0500695_us-ascii

Since we're sharing letters to the editor, here's one I sent the NY Times yesterday.

-------- Original Message -------- Subject: continued bias Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2003 09:32:06 -0500 From: Noam Stopak To: letters@nytimes.com



The headline on JAMES BENNET with TERENCE NEILAN's story about the bombing attack which destroyed a bus in Haifa and killed at least 8 is "Attack Follows Israeli Offensive Against Militants in Gaza Strip". Is it your policy to always place information about precipitating events in your headlines? If so I'd expect to see more headlines like "Israeli defensive action follows repeated terror attacks" or [...] 10013 27 19_attorneys for peace11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com30_Thu, 6 Mar 2003 12:40:06 -0800520_iso-8859-1 Noam

Agreed! Now that the air is cleared, I'm glad we can go back to civil tones. I prefer that, as I know you do. The world has enough negativity at the moment without added stuff. Looking forward to good, clean discourse.

Steve

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 10041 62 25_RE: [Fwd: continued bias]11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com30_Thu, 6 Mar 2003 12:46:27 -0800467_us-ascii Noam

I thought your letter to the Times was extremely well written and much needed. I took the liberty of sending it on to another newsservice that I have found fair and balanced.

Steve





-----Original Message----- From: owner-habonet@shamash.org [mailto:owner-habonet@shamash.org]On Behalf Of Noam Stopak Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 12:33 PM To: Habonim Dror Alumni Virtual Machaneh Subject: [Fwd: continued bias] [...] 10104 45 25_Re: [Fwd: continued bias]11_Noam Stopak20_nstopak@orionsci.com31_Thu, 06 Mar 2003 15:52:15 -0500401_us-ascii Steve Klein wrote:

> Noam > > I thought your letter to the Times was extremely well written and much > needed. I took the liberty of sending it on to another newsservice that I > have found fair and balanced. > > Steve >

Steve,

I'm very sorry to hear that - that violates my agreement with the NY Times and decreased the likelihood that my letter will be published. [...] 10150 38 25_Re: [Fwd: continued bias]15_Lorraine Kotler20_lorraine@infinet.com31_Thu, 06 Mar 2003 16:41:30 -0500637_us-ascii Good letter! Lorraine

Noam Stopak wrote:

> Since we're sharing letters to the editor, > here's one I sent the NY Times yesterday. > > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: continued bias > Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2003 09:32:06 -0500 > From: Noam Stopak > To: letters@nytimes.com > > The headline on JAMES BENNET with TERENCE NEILAN's story about the bombing attack which destroyed a bus in Haifa and killed at least 8 is "Attack Follows Israeli Offensive Against Militants in Gaza Strip". Is it your policy to always place information about precipitating events in your headlines? If [...] 10189 25 28_Photos of Israel this winter11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org30_Thu, 6 Mar 2003 19:58:02 -0600508_us-ascii Here are some great pictures of Israel this winter. Just go to the site, and scroll down. Once you click on the link, it will open a powerpoint presentation of photographs.

http://www.geocities.com/guysh99/homepage.htm



------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 10215 55 10_suggesting4_Stan17_stan@inter.net.il30_Fri, 7 Mar 2003 14:40:52 +0200207_iso-8859-1 Dennis I was not suggesting that God would watch over us,as much as,I was thinking that our forefathers were suggesting that with our free will we would accept the job of making the right choices. 10271 317 52_Enemies, a post national story/ www.haaretzdaily.com11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org30_Fri, 7 Mar 2003 08:56:32 -0600546_us-ascii



Enemies, a post-national story

By Yair Sheleg

"Images that were in the past directed against the Jews are now aimed at the Americans: the desire to rule the world; the allegation that the Americans, like the Jews in the past, are interested only in money and have no real feeling for culture or social distress. There are also some people who connect the two and maintain that the Jewish desire to rule the world is being realized today, in the best possible way, by means of the `American conquest.'" [...] 10589 80 25_RE: [Fwd: continued bias]11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com30_Fri, 7 Mar 2003 07:50:27 -0800345_us-ascii Noam

You are hopeless. I put out the white flag, and you turn it around to become a misplaced lesson in manners. Pitiful!

Resolved: I will NOT send anything you have written along, no matter how well written. That is because I will probably not read anything you have written, just to avoid the possible aggravation. [...] 10670 28 14_Re: suggesting0_18_DLerner569@aol.com28_Fri, 7 Mar 2003 14:49:54 EST732_US-ASCII Hey Stan,

Thanks for the clarification.

I'm interested in pursuing this thread further if you are. Please let me know.

Dennis

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/

* * FREE JEWISH LEARNING * * Shamash invites you to join MyJewishLearning.com, a comprehensive, objective, authoritative and interactive learning resource in all areas of Judaism. Free membership via http://www.myjewishlearning.com/shamash ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 10699 47 21_Four Matriarchs Award12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Fri, 07 Mar 2003 22:27:47 +0200530_us-ascii Haverot/im I would like to initiate an annual Habonet Matriarchs Award. My nominees for 2003 are Roz Barland,Judy Gelman Susie Lieberman and Lorraine Kotler. Roz gets my nomination for her still small voice exercised by judicious quotations from a variety of sources; Judy for her fairness, "seychel" (not the islands,)and value system; Lorraine for > I am usually a lurker and don't like to be drawn into the fray, but some of the stuff I've been reading demands a reply -- and Susie for her persistent "ichpatiut" [...] 10747 34 25_Re: [Fwd: continued bias]0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com28_Fri, 7 Mar 2003 15:38:35 EST41_US-ASCII Could you delete me too? Please? 10782 25 25_Re: [Fwd: continued bias]12_David Fleiss20_dfleiss@pipeline.com36_Fri, 7 Mar 2003 16:23:22 -0500 (EST)680_us-ascii As long as people are we're volunteering, please count me in.

Gut shabbes,

David

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/

* * FREE JEWISH LEARNING * * Shamash invites you to join MyJewishLearning.com, a comprehensive, objective, authoritative and interactive learning resource in all areas of Judaism. Free membership via http://www.myjewishlearning.com/shamash ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 10808 27 25_Re: [Fwd: continued bias]12_David Fleiss20_dfleiss@pipeline.com36_Fri, 7 Mar 2003 16:28:29 -0500 (EST)747_us-ascii Don't know how my message got so garbled ... it should have read:

As long as people are volunteering, please count me in.

Gut shabbes,

David

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/

* * FREE JEWISH LEARNING * * Shamash invites you to join MyJewishLearning.com, a comprehensive, objective, authoritative and interactive learning resource in all areas of Judaism. Free membership via http://www.myjewishlearning.com/shamash ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 10836 21 25_Re: Four Matriarchs Award0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com31_Fri, 07 Mar 2003 18:36:36 -0500693_iso-8859-1 As they say in our town,"It's an honor to be nominated"- especially in such company--Shabbat Shalom!--sue

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/

* * FREE JEWISH LEARNING * * Shamash invites you to join MyJewishLearning.com, a comprehensive, objective, authoritative and interactive learning resource in all areas of Judaism. Free membership via http://www.myjewishlearning.com/shamash ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 10858 207 73_FW: VCR Alert Sunday March 09, 9.00 CBS Stories of IDF Soldierscorrection11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com30_Fri, 7 Mar 2003 15:42:56 -0800409_iso-8859-1 VCR Alert Sunday March 09, 9.00 CBS Stories of IDF Soldiers correctionFrom Steve

-----Original Message----- From: Nava [mailto:nava@socal.rr.com] Sent: Friday, March 07, 2003 1:00 PM To: Active4 Israel Subject: VCR Alert Sunday March 09, 9.00 CBS Stories of IDF Soldierscorrection Importance: High



Friends of Israel Shalom,

Thank you Razly and Yoram for the info. [...] 11066 72 25_RE: [Fwd: continued bias]11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com30_Fri, 7 Mar 2003 15:43:38 -0800304_us-ascii Gladly



-----Original Message----- From: owner-habonet@shamash.org [mailto:owner-habonet@shamash.org]On Behalf Of Richardrdsmith@aol.com Sent: Friday, March 07, 2003 12:39 PM To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: Re: [Fwd: continued bias]



Could you delete me too? Please? 11139 21 18_CBS Sunday Morning0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com31_Fri, 07 Mar 2003 20:01:39 -0500324_iso-8859-1 This used to be one of my favorite shows (it is a lot like "Omnibus")- But -I may be wrong- it seems that in the last year it has aired at 6 AM on the west coast- airing at Eastern time. I may be mistaken and that might have been temporary- But those of you on the west coast need to check the airtime-- Sue [...] 11161 34 25_Re: Four Matriarchs Award11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org30_Fri, 7 Mar 2003 19:16:28 -0600695_us-ascii I am humbled and honored to be in such good company. Roz



---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: Amnon Hadary Reply-To: habonet@shamash.org Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 22:27:47 +0200

>Haverot/im >I would like to initiate an annual Habonet Matriarchs Award. My nominees for 2003 are Roz Barland,Judy Gelman Susie Lieberman and Lorraine Kotler. Roz gets my nomination for her still small voice exercised by judicious quotations from a variety of sources; Judy for her fairness, "seychel" (not the islands,)and value system; Lorraine for > I am usually a lurker and don't like to be drawn into the fray, but some [...] 11196 46 25_Re: Four Matriarchs Award13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il30_Sat, 8 Mar 2003 07:30:43 +020067_iso-8859-1 Amnon, do the rest of us get to vote for the winner? Jon 11243 896 14_Sirhan Sirhans13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Sat, 08 Mar 2003 00:40:09 -0500479_us-ascii Dear Friends,

This article on the denial of parole for Sirhan Sirhan stirred up a question I had been meaning to ask. When I was in Israel in January, I learned that the murderer at Kibbutz Meizar was Sirhan Sirhan, nephew of RFK's murderer. As the naming of a child for such an infamous person suggests, the family allegedly views the first Sirhan Sirhan as a great hero and evidently raised the second Sirhan Sirhan to be the murderer he turned out to be. [...] 12140 41 25_Re: Four Matriarchs Award13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Sat, 08 Mar 2003 00:43:26 -0500 12182 44 25_Re: Four Matriarchs Award13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il30_Sat, 8 Mar 2003 07:42:04 +020040_iso-8859-1 Judy, you're up awfully late. 12227 34 25_Re: Four Matriarchs Award13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Sat, 08 Mar 2003 01:09:01 -0500 12262 45 14_Re: suggesting4_Stan17_stan@inter.net.il30_Sat, 8 Mar 2003 16:17:17 +0200584_iso-8859-1

----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, March 07, 2003 9:49 PM Subject: Re: suggesting



> Hey Stan, > > Thanks for the clarification. > > I'm interested in pursuing this thread further if you are. Please let me > know. > > Dennis I believe that there is no virtue in never stealing if you have never had the chance to take something The virtue is in choosing the right path and NOT IN DOING OR NOT DOING SOMETHING. Man has free will SO THAT HE MUST DESIDE WHAT TO DO. Why else was he given [...] 12308 28 14_RE: suggesting4_Meir21_meir_h@maccabi.org.il30_Sat, 8 Mar 2003 18:54:48 +0200505_windows-1255 Why do you assume that man has free will.

Everything points to his NOT having free will. Yes hie can do what hie wants, but hie can't WANT what hie wants. This is determined by hir genes and hir environment.

Meir

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 12337 64 18_Re: Sirhan Sirhans0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com28_Sat, 8 Mar 2003 13:25:30 EST590_US-ASCII In a message dated 3/8/03 12:36:56 AM Eastern Standard Time, gelman@erols.com writes:



> Was RFK's murder viewed at the time or afterwards > as tied to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict? If so, why was RFK the > target? >

Though a good bit younger than you Judy, I do seem to remember it said that Sirhan objected to RFK's support of Israel. This never made much since because, while I have no reason to believe that RFK was anti-Israel I also never have seen any evidence that his support differed from Humphrey's or Gene McCarthy's or Nixon's for that matter. 12402 154 14_Re: suggesting0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com28_Sat, 8 Mar 2003 13:26:17 EST676_US-ASCII In a message dated 3/8/03 11:54:34 AM Eastern Standard Time, meir_h@maccabi.org.il writes:

> > Why do you assume that man has free will.





> > Everything points to his NOT having free will.







But Meir. But quite the opposite is true. Free will is a biological construct that is being medically and scientifically studied. The dorsolateral pre-frontal cortex is the organ of free will. In a more general ways, the entire frontal cortex is the organ of free will. Leisions or developmental insults in this area leads to a well known clincal syndrome of amotivation and ahnedonia. Neuroscientists talk about [...] 12557 32 14_Re: suggesting0_18_DLerner569@aol.com28_Sat, 8 Mar 2003 18:49:08 EST518_US-ASCII What is the right path?

My personal belief system says Jews are in search of the right path. We have tried many, learned much, but mostly failed. I don't see failure as a bad thing if it results from a sincere effort to find and do the right thing. There are many people who are not Jews by descent who similarly strive to find a way to live in harmony with God's vision for creation. In my view they are Jews too. I'm sure I have free will to do otherwise, but I feel very much bound and at ease [...] 12590 29 14_Re: suggesting0_18_DLerner569@aol.com28_Sat, 8 Mar 2003 18:53:40 EST517_US-ASCII Meir,

Are you saying we can't choose what we want? That nature and nurture control that? I'm sorry but I'm lost.

Hitler and Mother Teresa didn't choose of their free will to be bad and good respectively? Help me out here. Dennis

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 12620 49 14_Re: suggesting0_18_DLerner569@aol.com28_Sat, 8 Mar 2003 19:10:06 EST623_US-ASCII Sam,

I thought I had trouble understanding what Meir was saying.

Let's see. The front lobes of the brain control our ability to determine how to act. We get a sense of satisfaction from the presence of the neurotransmitters released when we choose of concentrate to perform a willed act. People who's frontal lobes are damaged or who are deficient in the neurotransmitter have serious mental impairments. While we may be inclined to behave in accordance with previous experience and its attendant rewards and punishments, we can, and in fact prefer to will ourselves to act as we choose. Though [...] 12670 59 14_Re: suggesting0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com28_Sat, 8 Mar 2003 20:53:52 EST439_US-ASCII In a message dated 3/8/2003 3:50:03 PM Pacific Standard Time, DLerner569@aol.com writes:

> , but I feel > very much bound and at ease pursuing the way to the right path regardless > of > the personal impact. > >

Dennis - I am curious- who decides what is the right path? Isn't it a matter of perception? Look at the vast differences between fundamentalist Islam and the West..."right path" is VERY subjective!- susie 12730 105 18_Re: Sirhan Sirhans11_Jack Porter23_jacknusan@earthlink.net31_Sat, 08 Mar 2003 22:43:56 -0800662_US-ASCII on 3/8/03 10:25 AM, Richardrdsmith@aol.com at Richardrdsmith@aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 3/8/03 12:36:56 AM Eastern Standard Time, gelman@erols.com writes:



Was RFK's murder viewed at the time or afterwards as tied to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict? If so, why was RFK the target?



Though a good bit younger than you Judy, I do seem to remember it said that Sirhan objected to RFK's support of Israel. This never made much since because, while I have no reason to believe that RFK was anti-Israel I also never have seen any evidence that his support differed from Humphrey's or Gene McCarthy's or Nixon's [...] 12836 51 14_Re: suggesting0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com28_Sun, 9 Mar 2003 01:27:40 EST317_US-ASCII In a message dated 3/8/03 7:20:10 PM Eastern Standard Time, DLerner569@aol.com writes:

> > I only have my intuition to guide me in this discussion, so please be > patient.

If you are being guided by intuition, that is a great place to start. Inttuition is a wonderful part of what free will is. 12888 77 14_Re: suggesting0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com28_Sun, 9 Mar 2003 01:32:04 EST338_US-ASCII In a message dated 3/8/03 7:20:10 PM Eastern Standard Time, DLerner569@aol.com writes:

> In this sense too we are not prisoners of > our environment and experience but they constitute a resource bank to aid > us > in making choice and developing strategies, thereby making us smarter over > time. > > Am I close? > > [...] 12966 45 14_RE: suggesting4_Meir21_meir_h@maccabi.org.il30_Sun, 9 Mar 2003 08:38:08 +0200349_windows-1255 Yes Dennis That's EXACTLY what I'm saying. Disturbing, isn't it ? We can no more choose what we want than can any other living being.

I said that I had an approach to lead us out of this quandary. So far only one person wanted to know what this approach was. I will NOT post it on Habonet, but I'll send it to whoever asks. [...] 13012 57 7_problem4_Stan17_stan@inter.net.il30_Sun, 9 Mar 2003 11:52:09 +0200286_iso-8859-1 The postings of recent days have made me aware that I have a problem In some cases Man is told you shall not or you shall. But what about the things that are not listed ?How does man know what is the right path ? Do I hear a voice ? If I do, people will think I am nuts. Stan 13070 125 14_Re: suggesting4_Stan17_stan@inter.net.il30_Sun, 9 Mar 2003 11:53:45 +0200479_iso-8859-1

----- Original Message ----- From: Smfgrappa@aol.com To: habonet@shamash.org Sent: Sunday, March 09, 2003 8:32 AM Subject: Re: suggesting



In a message dated 3/8/03 7:20:10 PM Eastern Standard Time, DLerner569@aol.com writes:



In this sense too we are not prisoners of our environment and experience but they constitute a resource bank to aid us in making choice and developing strategies, thereby making us smarter over time. [...] 13196 54 7_science4_Stan17_stan@inter.net.il30_Sun, 9 Mar 2003 12:39:20 +0200165_iso-8859-1 Hi Meir The Bible is not a science book. It is a History Book and a quide to living. If Man was intended to be a robut man would not have given free will. 13251 108 11_RE: science4_Meir21_meir_h@maccabi.org.il30_Sun, 9 Mar 2003 13:10:48 +0200545_windows-1255 Stan

I'm discussing the existence of free will with two people from Habonet. I'm not sure that I want to open the discussion up to everyone. If you'd like to join in then e-mail me personally. meir_h@maccabi.org.il

In essence I don't think that anyone has "free will".

In answer to your very serious question about what do we do about things that aren't listed I would like to enlarge your problem. We also have to decide about the things that are listed as well. There IS a solution, but not an easy one. [...] 13360 33 14_Re: suggesting0_18_DLerner569@aol.com28_Sun, 9 Mar 2003 08:14:03 EST537_US-ASCII Dear Susie,

Sure is. A gross examination of the major religions would suggest that each has a core of values we would be pretty comfortable with and would lead (if followed) to a "better world."

I find a lot of people, Jews and non-Jews who recognize the importance of the personal search for the right path as guided or structured by the principles of their faith. At the ultimate that may lead to a single course of action or behavior, but until then we do the best we can and continually try to do better. [...] 13394 25 14_Re: suggesting0_18_DLerner569@aol.com28_Sun, 9 Mar 2003 08:17:28 EST659_US-ASCII Meir,

Does the answer have something to do with sex?

Dennis

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/

* * FREE JEWISH LEARNING * * Shamash invites you to join MyJewishLearning.com, a comprehensive, objective, authoritative and interactive learning resource in all areas of Judaism. Free membership via http://www.myjewishlearning.com/shamash ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 13420 33 11_Re: problem0_18_DLerner569@aol.com28_Sun, 9 Mar 2003 08:25:17 EST536_US-ASCII Stan,

I rarely hear voices (Sometimes my deceased father speaks to me when I'm asleep) As you no doubt are aware I have a lot to say. What you can't know is that its only a tiny fraction of what I consider saying. I try to make what I say flow and make sense. I'm always testing as I write, or speak, and I'm always looking for other's perspectives. While I don't hear voices, when I'm seeing things clearly and on track (I think of it as the "truth") there is a small silver bell that I hear (metaphorically) that [...] 13454 44 11_Re: science0_18_DLerner569@aol.com28_Sun, 9 Mar 2003 08:40:44 EST618_US-ASCII Stan,

I hear Meir as being very literal when he says "want."

Its a Maslow thing. 7 basic needs. We all want to love and be loved, to believe in something lasting, food, shelter....

If I'm interpreting Meir correctly, he's correct. Our animal selves are filled with urges and desires -- as Meir calls them, "wants." Civilization is mans efforts to control/channel those urges. It doesn't mean the "wants" go away, it means we keep reins on them - at least most of the time. Sometimes people misunderstand what civilization requires and they believe that their animal wants are wrong, [...] 13499 30 19_Free will and sex ?4_Meir21_meir_h@maccabi.org.il30_Sun, 9 Mar 2003 15:52:05 +0200464_windows-1255 > -----Original Message----- > From: DLerner569@aol.com > > Does the answer have something to do with sex? > Haha. If you'd like. I'm sure I can find a way to connect it up.

Meir

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 13530 36 5_Wants4_Meir21_meir_h@maccabi.org.il30_Sun, 9 Mar 2003 15:59:51 +0200301_windows-1255 No Dennis. Sorry.

Only a small part of our "wants" are the basic (animal) ones. The other "wants" we have are the ones like - being a good member of the society, having a good image and self-image. In essence ALL the things that are part of what Freud called our "super-ego". [...] 13567 76 9_Re: Wants0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com28_Sun, 9 Mar 2003 09:44:56 EST582_US-ASCII



Meir. You have just made an airtight case for free will. Very elegant.

Sam

In a message dated 3/9/03 9:00:25 AM Eastern Standard Time, meir_h@maccabi.org.il writes:

> I maintain that everyone does exactly as he "wants". It is wrong to say > that I go to work (for example) even when I don't "want" to. A person > goes to work because hie wants a salary, because, in hir self image hie > wants to be trusted, and for many other reasons. > There is a priority of wants which sometimes are in conflict. And he > "chooses" the "wants" [...] 13644 93 9_RE: Wants4_Meir21_meir_h@maccabi.org.il30_Sun, 9 Mar 2003 16:53:51 +0200391_windows-1255 Haha. And here I thought I was doing the OPPOSITE. And STILL think that way. Since a person's "wants" are NOT of hir own initiative, but come from genetics and environment, I still don't see where "free will" enters into the equation or where it comes from. Again - the frontal lobes that you mentioned to me are part of the PROCESSING, but has nothing do with initiation. [...] 13738 58 23_Sirhan Sirhan's motives27_Maxene and Frank Perlmutter24_habesor@netvision.net.il31_Sun, 09 Mar 2003 17:31:35 +0200585_us-ascii Judy, Jack, Richard,

I hope that I'm not older than all of you but I will rely on my memory of the events surrounding RFK's murder to try to answer Judy's question and correct a misstatement in one of the responses.

In the closing days of the California primary, Robert Kennedy and Eugene McCarthy faced each other in a TV debate. I was studying for my M.A. at the University of Michigan at the time and I clearly remember a number of faculty and graduate students gathered around the TV to analyze the candidates remarks. Each candidate voiced support for [...] 13797 62 11_Re: science0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com28_Sun, 9 Mar 2003 10:40:15 EST295_US-ASCII In a message dated 3/9/03 8:42:42 AM Eastern Standard Time, DLerner569@aol.com writes:

> I hear Meir as being very literal when he says "want." > > Its a Maslow thing. 7 basic needs. We all want to love and be loved, to > believe in something lasting, food, shelter.... > > [...] 13860 60 14_Re: suggesting0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com28_Sun, 9 Mar 2003 11:32:16 EST404_US-ASCII In a message dated 3/8/2003 10:32:48 PM Pacific Standard Time, Smfgrappa@aol.com writes:

> thereby making us smarter over > time. > >

Dennis- again- if we are getting "smarter over time"- why is muder and war still a part of our "psyche"...It would seem to me that smarter implies a graudation to dialogue- or are we really going backwards and Socrates dies with the secret?- susie 13921 34 17_People and Belief14_Martin Goodman26_martinjgoodman@hotmail.com30_Sun, 9 Mar 2003 09:45:08 -0800442_iso-8859-8-i In Habonet Digest 2521, Dug Lerner writes ""There are many people who are not Jews by descent who similarly strive to find a way to live in harmony with God's vision for creation. In my view they are Jews too.""

I would not include all individuals who share Jewish values, whatever those values are, in the Jewish people. [I have a deep feeling for Japanese art forms, but I am a long, long way from being Japanese.] [...] 13956 55 11_Re: science0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com28_Sun, 9 Mar 2003 13:20:13 EST401_US-ASCII In a message dated 3/9/03 5:49:43 AM Eastern Standard Time, stan@inter.net.il writes:



> The Bible is not a science book. It is a History Book

Only half true I think, The Bible is not a science book or a history book. It may indeed be a guide for living as u suggest but calling it history is a stretch. It is about as historical as the Iliad and the Odyssey are history. 14012 39 14_Re: suggesting0_18_DLerner569@aol.com28_Sun, 9 Mar 2003 14:33:49 EST537_US-ASCII Susie,

I may be wrong. And if I am I apologize. But it seems like this is the second time there has been a misunderstanding of the difference between the group and the individual. In this case it is the individual who presumably gets smarter by comparing prior choices and outcomes to current conditions. On the group level it is a much more difficult thing to measure -- like global warming. Syracuse had one of the coldest winters on record, but the average global temperature is up a very significant 1/2 degree. [...] 14052 38 11_Re: science0_18_DLerner569@aol.com28_Sun, 9 Mar 2003 14:52:13 EST372_US-ASCII Poor Richard,

I have succumbed to that propaganda about how archeologists keep finding evidence of the allegories and metaphors of the bible as historical fact. Oral tradition is necessarily false. One need not see the unlikelihood of miracles or encounters with the divine as evidence that the places, characters and events described are fictitious. [...] 14091 145 13_AN IDEAL LOVE12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Sun, 09 Mar 2003 22:01:07 +0200365_us-ascii

Haverot/im Has the countdown to Armageddon ( Har Megido - just south of Affulah) really begun in earnest? To calm media hyped eyes I turn to my old friend Yehuda Amichai. He's too good to savor alone so have a quaff of two vintage Y.A. poems. As an old Palmachnik who didn't have a chance to pick between the two, I suggest make love and war. [...] 14237 55 11_Re: science0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com28_Sun, 9 Mar 2003 15:06:13 EST364_US-ASCII In a message dated 3/9/03 2:52:48 PM Eastern Standard Time, DLerner569@aol.com writes:



> My belief does not depend on the literalness of what is presented, or its > historical verity

I am glad u find something in the Bible that brings u joy. All I said is that it is not history. History books do depend on their "Historical verity." 14293 22 27_Re: Sirhan Sirhan's motives13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Sun, 09 Mar 2003 15:31:19 -0500601_us-ascii Thank you. Judy

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I am interested in learning more about the ability of communities in Israel to approve who lives in them.

I recently read something Amos Oz wrote about Ofra in which he referred in an off-hand way to when an individual was accepted as a member of the community. I have also heard about membership referred to with regard to other communities, such as the Mitzpe communities in the Galilee. [...] 14378 56 14_Re: suggesting0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com28_Sun, 9 Mar 2003 19:54:27 EST535_US-ASCII In a message dated 3/9/2003 11:34:36 AM Pacific Standard Time, DLerner569@aol.com writes:

> Still the likelihood of a state or an > individual engaging in murder gets lower and lower

huh? What about the PLO? Yugoslavia? Hitler? South Africa? Afirca? Saddam Hussein? Is your head in the sand? what about North Korea? or the USA for that factor? (are we not going to war?)....I don't think the statistics globally would support you in this...sorry Dennis---On this point, I don't agree..But I still love ya!- susie 14435 59 11_Re: science0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com28_Sun, 9 Mar 2003 19:59:55 EST632_US-ASCII In a message dated 3/9/2003 12:08:39 PM Pacific Standard Time, Richardrdsmith@aol.com writes:

> it is not history. History books do depend on their "Historical verity."

Well- this isn't entirely true either- what about "Mlachim"- Kings, etc/ Portions of the Bible have been proven to be historically correct....and some of the "history" books aren't completely "historical" either- note the educational materials handed out to Plaestinian children, or German education under Hitler...or Americn education, which hardly metions the holocaust or treatment of Native Americans..where do you draw the line...susie 14495 109 29_Re: science and history books0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com28_Sun, 9 Mar 2003 20:57:39 EST412_US-ASCII In a message dated 3/9/03 8:00:57 PM Eastern Standard Time, LiberHawke@aol.com writes:



> and some of the "history" books aren't completely "historical" either- note > the educational materials handed out to Plaestinian children, or German > education under Hitler...or Americn education, which hardly metions the > holocaust or treatment of Native Americans..where do you draw the > [...] 14605 1241 7_Origins0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com29_Mon, 10 Mar 2003 07:16:08 EST607_ISO-8859-1

The Origins of Intifada II and Rescuing Peace for Israelis and Palestinians

By Menachem Klein

Professor Menachem Klein delivered the following lecture in Washington on October 2, 2002 at the invitation of the Foundation for Middle East Peace and the Middle East Institute. Dr. Klein is Senior Scholar at the Jerusalem Institute for Israeli Studies, Professor at Bar Ilan University. He served as Advisor to the Israeli delegation to the Camp David Summit, July 2000. His book on the Israeli-Palestinian negotiations from 1994 to January 2001 will be published shortly. [...] 15847 52 15_jeff knisbacher7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Mon, 10 Mar 2003 15:03:18 +0200287_windows-1255 I would very much appreciate it if someone could send me Jeff's email address, as a Habonim friend of his has been writing him at an email address that seems to have been changed. If you do have an up to date address, please contact me and I shall forward the message. [...] 15900 62 14_Re: suggesting0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Mon, 10 Mar 2003 09:22:28 EST391_US-ASCII In a message dated 3/9/2003 8:01:55 PM Eastern Standard Time, LiberHawke@aol.com writes:



> On this point, I don't agree..But I still love ya!- susie

You prove my point. See how far we've come.

PS I recommend a read of Raspberry's column this morning. He has an excellent assessment of what I agree is a game of chicken Bush is playing with Saddam. [...] 15963 59 29_Re: science and history books0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Mon, 10 Mar 2003 09:26:08 EST396_US-ASCII In a message dated 3/9/2003 8:58:42 PM Eastern Standard Time, Richardrdsmith@aol.com writes:



> (I am making no judgment

Oh, but you are. A book must be this or that. Explanations for the inexplicable are the stuff of fairytales... or religious texts and are therefore divorced from history or fact. Tsk, Tsk. I expect ever so much more from you Richard. : - ) [...] 16023 153 69_[Fwd: Fwd: ANNOUNCING A WRITING CONTEST: WOMEN'S VOICES IN WAR ZONES]13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Mon, 10 Mar 2003 10:12:02 -0500 16177 63 14_Re: suggesting0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Mon, 10 Mar 2003 10:48:47 EST579_US-ASCII In a message dated 3/10/2003 6:37:12 AM Pacific Standard Time, DLerner569@aol.com writes:

> You prove my point. See how far we've come. > > Hey- when it's just you and me- its one thing- but the global media prove mine!!!!....My opinion of "how far we've come" isn't measured by technology- but by how well we communicate as social beings. Hell, now we can type to a computer screen and don't have to ever meet face-to-face. Sometimes I feel like we hide behind our technology. Look at the UN- which has turned into a joke....So, next week, we'll go to work [...] 16241 25 38_help fight bias in the washington post12_Stopak, Noam20_NStopak@orionsci.com31_Mon, 10 Mar 2003 11:31:47 -0500717_iso-8859-1

I know most of these petitions don't help, but I signed anyway...

http://www.eyeonthepost.org/petition

Noam

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/

* * FREE JEWISH LEARNING * * Shamash invites you to join MyJewishLearning.com, a comprehensive, objective, authoritative and interactive learning resource in all areas of Judaism. Free membership via http://www.myjewishlearning.com/shamash ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 16267 37 42_Re: help fight bias in the washington post13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Mon, 10 Mar 2003 12:15:07 -0500383_us-ascii Dear Noam,

Thank you for bring this petition to our attention. Whether people sign it or not, it is worth reading the list of instances of bias so I hope people spread it far and wide..

Warmly, Judy

"Stopak, Noam" wrote:

> I know most of these petitions don't help, but I signed anyway... > > http://www.eyeonthepost.org/petition > > Noam > [...] 16305 26 23_Re: HABONET digest 252214_Martin Goodman26_martinjgoodman@hotmail.com31_Mon, 10 Mar 2003 18:07:11 +0000570_- My apologies to Dennis Lerner for mis-stating his name in the previous Habonet Digest. No slight was intended. Marty Goodman

_________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 16332 22 25_Re: Four Matriarchs Award15_Lorraine Kotler20_lorraine@infinet.com31_Mon, 10 Mar 2003 14:48:40 -0500665_iso-8859-1 As a "newbie" I was honored to be included. Thank you, Amnon.

Lorraine

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/

* * FREE JEWISH LEARNING * * Shamash invites you to join MyJewishLearning.com, a comprehensive, objective, authoritative and interactive learning resource in all areas of Judaism. Free membership via http://www.myjewishlearning.com/shamash ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 16355 36 21_Is the Bible History?14_Martin Goodman26_martinjgoodman@hotmail.com31_Mon, 10 Mar 2003 21:30:00 +0000408_- Regarding the "IS THE BIBLE HISTORY" thread, there is no doubt at least that that Joshua, Judges, Samuel, Kings, and Chronicles were written by author(s) who had access to historical records from the time of the first Beit HaMikdash. What is more, the author(s) had strong political viewpoints; take for example the criticism of the behavior of Saul, David, Solomon, and most of the subsequent kings. [...] 16392 25 14_Re: suggesting0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Mon, 10 Mar 2003 21:39:18 EST671_US-ASCII Susie,

I know, but ya gotta admit, it was a pretty good comeback

Dennis

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* * FREE JEWISH LEARNING * * Shamash invites you to join MyJewishLearning.com, a comprehensive, objective, authoritative and interactive learning resource in all areas of Judaism. Free membership via http://www.myjewishlearning.com/shamash ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 16418 218 30_Fwd: A sobering resignation...0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Mon, 10 Mar 2003 22:29:44 EST81_US-ASCII I think I heard a portion of this letter on NPR yesterday.

Dennis 16637 60 25_Re: Is the Bible History?0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Mon, 10 Mar 2003 22:34:51 EST416_US-ASCII In a message dated 3/10/2003 4:31:59 PM Eastern Standard Time, martinjgoodman@hotmail.com writes:



> the author(s) had strong political viewpoints

Marty,

I don't see that this was required to find greater deficiency than virtue in our history of Monarchy. It was one of the many things we have tried, which wasn't the fulfillment of creation. Oh well, on to the next thing. [...] 16698 34 24_To Dennis-Re: suggesting0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Tue, 11 Mar 2003 01:42:54 EST43_US-ASCII Wouldn't expect anything less!. :) 16733 39 8_From Sue0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Tue, 11 Mar 2003 10:26:47 EST215_US-ASCII Oh- so Noam and Dennis and Steve and Richard - in your eyes- can have insulting bantering we all are exposed to, but thanking someone or saying something nice is now " too much"-- I am going into hiding-sue 16773 68 17_Re: AN IDEAL LOVE13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il31_Tue, 11 Mar 2003 18:48:47 +0200455_iso-8859-1 Amnon, one can never have too much poetry as the night begins to fall. Except when the poets themselves loose perspective,

William Butler Yeats On Being Asked for a War Poem (1915)

I think it better that in times like these A poet's mouth be silent, for in truth We have no gift to set a statesman right; He has had enough of meddling who can please A young girl in the indolence of her youth, Or an old man upon a winter's night. 16842 105 17_RE: AN IDEAL LOVE12_Stopak, Noam20_NStopak@orionsci.com31_Tue, 11 Mar 2003 11:58:52 -0500491_iso-8859-1 Thanks, both Jon and Amnon for the poetry.

Jon, why do you feel Yeats has lost perspective? I think he's wrong and that the more meddling Bush and Sharon and Arafat and Saddam encounter, the better if it slows down their drive to destruction.

let us hope the dawn comes soon.

Noam

-----Original Message----- From: Jonathan Baum [mailto:jonbaum@sasa.org.il] Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2003 11:49 AM To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: Re: AN IDEAL LOVE [...] 16948 45 17_Re: AN IDEAL LOVE13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il31_Tue, 11 Mar 2003 19:00:52 +020063_iso-8859-1 I send the poem because I think Yeats was right. Jon 16994 52 12_Re: From Sue0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com29_Tue, 11 Mar 2003 15:32:51 EST331_US-ASCII In a message dated 3/11/03 10:27:42 AM Eastern Standard Time, LiberHawke@aol.com writes:



> Oh- so Noam and Dennis and Steve and Richard - in your eyes- can have > insulting bantering we all are exposed to, but thanking someone or saying >

What the hell is my name doing in this e-mail? What did I do? 17047 159 43_FW: you lost any hope of gaining my support12_Stopak, Noam20_NStopak@orionsci.com31_Tue, 11 Mar 2003 15:48:03 -0500309_iso-8859-1 Some of your may have seen the PETA site masskillings.org. This site speaks of a "holocaust" against animals and seems to draw a parallel with events of 60+ years ago.

I took offense and wrote a note and thought I'd share their response with the list. I'm interested in your reactions. [...] 17207 39 12_Re: From Sue0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Tue, 11 Mar 2003 16:07:27 EST543_US-ASCII Dear Richard,

I do not pretend to speak for anyone but myself, but I am embarrassed for you. On the list you are among a number of human beings with whom you share much in common, and among whom there is great diversity. Like a family, we confide, feel betrayed, scream, cry and laugh with, and in response to, one another. It is a Mitzvah that we have a place where we can be naked and unashamed. It seems out of place for you to be what seems hyper-sensitive about how you are identified or grouped. We are Habonim. Are [...] 17247 30 4_PETA13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Tue, 11 Mar 2003 18:06:56 -0500570_us-ascii Dear Noam,

Good for you! The Holocaust images they are using are property of the Holocaust museum but they refuse to understand why the museum is upset, claiming that they have lots of Jews on their board. I understand that the museum is considering a lawsuit.

Warmly, Judy



------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 17278 31 13_Kumsitz 2003!0_13_SC523@aol.com29_Wed, 12 Mar 2003 03:31:04 EST304_US-ASCII OK, finally - we have a date and a new place for the annual National kumsitz - save the date: Saturday night June 14th (and, yes, we know it's the night before Father's Day) for dancing, makhela, and much guitar and banjo singing at West End Synagogue near LIncoln Center in New York City. [...] 17310 476 14_FW: Whose War?11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Wed, 12 Mar 2003 10:18:20 -0800400_iso-8859-1 Habonet

This certainly needed to be passed along. I have no idea how powerful Buchanan is today, or even if anyone listens to him at all. In any case, this needs to be followed. Appropriate response?

Steve -----Original Message----- From: Harry Gluckman [mailto:hwgluckman@zapcom.net] Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2003 10:59 PM To: hwgluckman@zapcom.net Subject: Whose War? [...] 17787 121 14_RE: Whose War?12_Stopak, Noam20_NStopak@orionsci.com31_Wed, 12 Mar 2003 13:26:12 -0500679_iso-8859-1 It's not just the Buchanon fringe either. Virginia Congressional Democrat Jim Moran is getting raked over the coals in today's Washington Post for singing a similar song:

washingtonpost.com

Blaming the Jews

Wednesday, March 12, 2003; Page A20

OUR VIEW THAT Rep. James P. Moran Jr. is unfit to serve in Congress is not new. Last July, citing Mr. Moran's ethical obtuseness, we urged Democrats in Alexandria and surrounding neighborhoods to find another candidate for the fall election. Now, by blaming American Jews for an Iraq policy he opposes, the seven-term congressman has confirmed our opinion about him. House Democratic leaders [...] 17909 27 8_Buchanan13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Wed, 12 Mar 2003 13:37:14 -0500701_us-ascii Dear Steve,

Buchanan has a nightly show on MSNBC so presumably a lot of people hear him.

Shalom, Judy

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* * FREE JEWISH LEARNING * * Shamash invites you to join MyJewishLearning.com, a comprehensive, objective, authoritative and interactive learning resource in all areas of Judaism. Free membership via http://www.myjewishlearning.com/shamash ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 17937 35 14_Re: Whose War?12_David Fleiss20_dfleiss@pipeline.com37_Wed, 12 Mar 2003 13:59:56 -0500 (EST)420_us-ascii Another thought, perhaps a paranoid one:

Last week President Bush warned Mexican President Vicente Fox that, if Mexico didn't line up to support the U.S. in this war that he (Bush) couldn't guarantee the safety of Mexican-Americans. Not that the government would come after Mexican-Americans, Bush warned, but the American people. After all, look at how riled up the American public is over France. [...] 17973 133 45_Short Glib Answers to Hard Complex Questions.0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Wed, 12 Mar 2003 17:01:18 EST499_UTF-8 1. How can we end the recession and raise the NYSE by 3 - 5000 points by year end?

A. End the Bush Administration and its policies.

2. How can we make the government "of, by and for" the people again?

A. Prohibit political contributions from any source other than natural persons, limit the amount of a natural person's per year political contributions to a percentage of their net taxable income. Set a flat limit on Lobbying expenditures with mandatory IRS audits. [...] 18107 147 10_Fuad Ajami15_Leo Diesendruck18_leodie@isdn.net.il31_Thu, 13 Mar 2003 09:18:30 +0200440_us-ascii I have received a long article entitled "Iraq and the Arabs' Future" from Foreign Affairs, January/February 2003. Ajami is Professor of Middle Eastern Studies at Johns Hopkins University.





I will be glad to forward this article if you let me know.





Prof. L. Diesendruck

Petach Tikva Rd. 7/408

Netanya, 42461 Israel

Phone: 011 971 9 860 1878 email: leodie@isdn.net.il 18255 21 14_Re: Fuad Ajami0_16_SMG54321@aol.com29_Thu, 13 Mar 2003 05:48:53 EST646_US-ASCII Yes please I would like to receive the article. Thanks Ilana

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* * FREE JEWISH LEARNING * * Shamash invites you to join MyJewishLearning.com, a comprehensive, objective, authoritative and interactive learning resource in all areas of Judaism. Free membership via http://www.myjewishlearning.com/shamash ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 18277 37 14_Re: Whose War?0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com29_Thu, 13 Mar 2003 09:53:15 EST152_US-ASCII If the Mexicans do not come around quickly we should threaten to change all of Taco Bell to Freedom Food and not Mexican Food. That'll teach em 18315 63 14_Re: Whose War?14_Holtzer Family20_carmdave@urim.org.il31_Thu, 13 Mar 2003 18:35:08 +0200354_iso-8859-1 Sam - Is this in line with changing the name of French Fries to Freedom Fries ? AS I remember from some arcane course, the US started using the name "hot dogs" instead of "frankfurters" at the beginning of World War II, the latter being the name of a city in Germany. Ok - what do ya got instead of French toast? You're the creative one! [...] 18379 38 26_What about french kissing?12_Stopak, Noam20_NStopak@orionsci.com31_Thu, 13 Mar 2003 12:05:19 -0500649_iso-8859-1 Freedom toast - it's not about creativity, it's about jingoism/patriotism (depending on your point of view).

Noam

-----Original Message----- From: Holtzer Family [mailto:carmdave@urim.org.il] Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2003 11:35 AM To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: Re: Whose War?



Sam - Is this in line with changing the name of French Fries to Freedom Fries ? AS I remember from some arcane course, the US started using the name "hot dogs" instead of "frankfurters" at the beginning of World War II, the latter being the name of a city in Germany. Ok - what do ya got instead of French toast? You're the [...] 18418 89 14_RE: Whose War?11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Thu, 13 Mar 2003 09:25:55 -0800489_us-ascii David

In response: This wouldn't be the first time that President Bush said or thought incredibly stupid things. And like the other six billion people on the planet, we will never know the real reasons for his going after Saddam Hussein. Power? Oil? Retribution? Agrandisement? Distraction?

It doesn't change the fact that an incredibly dangerous madman (Saddam) needs to be stopped. And stopped now. I won't go into the long, tedious Hitler-parallel argument. [...] 18508 46 14_Re: Whose War?0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com29_Thu, 13 Mar 2003 12:22:55 EST200_US-ASCII In a message dated 3/13/03 11:49:55 AM Eastern Standard Time, carmdave@urim.org.il writes:

> Ok - what do ya got instead of French toast? You're the creative one!

Victory Toast. 18555 45 12_RE: Buchanan11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Thu, 13 Mar 2003 09:29:05 -0800489_us-ascii Judy, thank you. I tuned in last night, especially since a debate between Buchanan and Dennis Prager was scheduled. Unfortunately, it was all pre-empted by the news of the finding of the "Smart" girl. Do you know anything of the re-scheduling? Anyone?

Steve

-----Original Message----- From: owner-habonet@shamash.org [mailto:owner-habonet@shamash.org]On Behalf Of Judith Gelman Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2003 10:37 AM To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: Buchanan [...] 18601 81 14_RE: Whose War?11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Thu, 13 Mar 2003 09:30:02 -0800472_us-ascii And finally, Armistice Kissing. -----Original Message----- From: owner-habonet@shamash.org [mailto:owner-habonet@shamash.org]On Behalf Of Smfgrappa@aol.com Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2003 9:23 AM To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: Re: Whose War?



In a message dated 3/13/03 11:49:55 AM Eastern Standard Time, carmdave@urim.org.il writes:



Ok - what do ya got instead of French toast? You're the creative one!



Victory Toast. 18683 27 30_Re: What about french kissing?12_David Fleiss20_dfleiss@pipeline.com37_Thu, 13 Mar 2003 13:31:57 -0500 (EST)644_us-ascii As Dave mentioned, this is very similar to the beginning of WW2 when frankfurters were renamed "hot dogs," sauerkraut became "victory cabbage," and hamburgers "Salisbury steak." *

One key difference, of course, is that we were AT WAR with Germany. Now the U.S. is just miffed at France.

David

* Before any etymologists, language mavens, and gourmands object, I know that "hot dog" pre-dates WW2 by a long period and that "Salisbury steak" is technically different from hamburger. Still, I have heard that the Germanic names for these foods were removed from many American menus and cookbooks at the beginning [...] 18711 31 14_Re: Whose War?12_David Fleiss20_dfleiss@pipeline.com37_Thu, 13 Mar 2003 13:37:24 -0500 (EST)462_us-ascii Steve,

Thank you for your thoughtful message.

On the reasons/needs for war against Iraq, we could argue all day and still be no closer to seeing eye to eye. So let's agree to disagree.

My chief point was that it is rarely "good for the Jews" when the government stirs up resentment against an ethnic or religious group and then says that it must respect the "will of the people" with respect to said ethnic or religious group. [...] 18743 41 18_The next election?12_Stopak, Noam20_NStopak@orionsci.com31_Thu, 13 Mar 2003 13:32:05 -0500334_iso-8859-1



> -----Original Message----- > From: Steve Klein [mailto:kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com] > Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2003 12:26 PM > To: habonet@shamash.org > Subject: RE: Whose War? > > ... > Yes, Bush and his bunch need to be dealt with, and the time > and place will be at the upcoming elections. > ... [...] 18785 53 14_RE: Whose War?11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Thu, 13 Mar 2003 10:35:24 -0800506_us-ascii David

We are absolutely eye to eye on that.

Steve

-----Original Message----- From: owner-habonet@shamash.org [mailto:owner-habonet@shamash.org]On Behalf Of David Fleiss Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2003 10:37 AM To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: Re: Whose War?



Steve,

Thank you for your thoughtful message.

On the reasons/needs for war against Iraq, we could argue all day and still be no closer to seeing eye to eye. So let's agree to disagree. [...] 18839 60 14_Re: Whose War?0_18_Brianscoop@aol.com29_Thu, 13 Mar 2003 14:50:21 EST361_US-ASCII In a message dated 3/13/03 1:27:44 PM Eastern Standard Time, dfleiss@pipeline.com writes:

> Today it's the French, tomorrow (according to our President) it may be the > Mexicans, and the day after tomorrow?? >

I'm afarid to ask what they can with, say, "Matzo Balls"...

----------------------------- Brian Cooper brianscoop@aol.com 18900 32 14_Re: Whose War?14_Holtzer Family20_carmdave@urim.org.il31_Thu, 13 Mar 2003 22:41:07 +0200456_iso-8859-1 Steve - You are assuming that I suggest that Bush called for re-naming French fries. Wrong. Negative. Nada.

I refuse to get into an argument about who said what, where or when.

I remember the sirens 11 years ago and stuffing myself and my family into gasmasks. Saddam Hussein is dangerous not only to Israel but to the whole world. I say stop the pussyfooting around in the UN and tell the army to start the engines and roll. [...] 18933 38 14_Re: Whose War?13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Thu, 13 Mar 2003 16:40:48 -0500 18972 166 21_RE: yeats being right9_Jeff Abel15_abel@012.net.il31_Thu, 13 Mar 2003 23:42:03 +0200339_windows-1255 William Butler Yeats=20 On Being Asked for a War Poem (1915)=20

I think it better that in times like these A poet's mouth be silent, for in truth We have no gift to set a statesman right; He has had enough of meddling who can please A young girl in the indolence of her youth, Or an old man upon a winter's night. [...] 19139 79 14_Re: Whose War?0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com29_Thu, 13 Mar 2003 17:09:59 EST638_US-ASCII In a message dated 3/13/03 12:24:25 PM Eastern Standard Time, kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com writes:



> It doesn't change the fact that an incredibly dangerous madman (Saddam) > needs to be stopped. And stopped now.

Stopped from doing what? Financially ruining his country? Impoverishing his people?

I am very wishy-washy on the whole war question. I find that I disagree with everything I hear on the subject. When I listen to the mindless masses on AM radio who are gung-ho on the war, whose reasoning seems to center on payback for 9/11 I can't help but be antiwar. When I hear the anti-American, [...] 19219 59 14_Re: Whose War?0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Thu, 13 Mar 2003 17:18:49 EST530_US-ASCII Dear Steve,

I trust all is fine in Mt. Iddy.

Your message about Mad-damn Hussein pushed a button. Here is the resultant buzz.

No challenge to the assessment of Saddam's distorted psyche, and record of terror.

For oft challenged reasons, international assassinations of national leaders is a taboo. If I put a cap in yours, what's to keep your friends from returning the favor? As JFK so presciently observed, anyone willing to give up their life in exchange can take the life of another. [...] 19279 27 22_Re: The next election?0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Thu, 13 Mar 2003 17:23:20 EST462_US-ASCII Noam,

that's not funny. (Yes, I know you didn't mean it to be funny). Would you bet against me if I bet you there are contingency plans for just that. Its too, scary.

Dennis

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 19307 25 14_Re: Whose War?0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Thu, 13 Mar 2003 17:28:50 EST693_US-ASCII Richard,

Did she miss the part about postwar rebuilding, or was she saying, "not on my dime?" Dennis

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/

* * FREE JEWISH LEARNING * * Shamash invites you to join MyJewishLearning.com, a comprehensive, objective, authoritative and interactive learning resource in all areas of Judaism. Free membership via http://www.myjewishlearning.com/shamash ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 19333 46 11_Ambivalence13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Thu, 13 Mar 2003 17:51:12 -0500409_us-ascii Dear Richard,

The ambivalence you describe is precisely what I feel too. I am continually surprised by those around me who are so certain that they know the truth when so many very intelligent people, with much better information than I will ever have, are on opposite sides on this issue. And I agree that the arguments given on both sides in this country are simplistic to the extreme. [...] 19380 85 14_RE: Whose War?11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Thu, 13 Mar 2003 15:02:40 -0800463_US-ASCII Dennis

I don't know which Steve you were writing to, but in any case, I'd like to make a small but very important correction to your letter: You stated, as do many others writing on this topic, that you view Iraq as a "sovereign state or country". This is not the case. Iraq, the people, the country, the sand doesn't belong to Saddam, other than his having taken them by force. There is nothing sovereign about Iraq! Am I missing something? [...] 19466 25 16_Re: frankfurters12_Doug Greener25_ddwgreen@netvision.net.il31_Fri, 14 Mar 2003 00:14:32 +0200728_iso-8859-1 There was an item on TV today about this: it was after WWI that the names for frankfurters and sauerkraut were changed.

Trudy



------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/

* * FREE JEWISH LEARNING * * Shamash invites you to join MyJewishLearning.com, a comprehensive, objective, authoritative and interactive learning resource in all areas of Judaism. Free membership via http://www.myjewishlearning.com/shamash ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 19492 133 12_Nature lover13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il31_Fri, 14 Mar 2003 11:03:50 +0200588_windows-1255 I guess idiots tend to marry each other...





Idiotic Tourist - Women Killed By Elephant While Taking Photo

On January 7th of this year, a woman was on a safari tour in Tanzania. See, apparently she was a volunteer for the Peace Corps and had decided to see a bit of the animal life in its natural habitat. Well, someone should have told her that 'natural habitat' does not include people wanting a better picture. Seems like she wanted a good snapshot of an elephant during a tour of Ruaha National Park, and proceeded to get out of the tour [...] 19626 32 16_Re: Nature lover13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Fri, 14 Mar 2003 06:38:21 -0500440_us-ascii Dear Jon,

The man is right. If we spent $200 Billion (the cost of this impending war and clean up) on elephant hypothalamus research, she probably would be alive today because to spend that much, we would have to keep every elephant on earth in captivity, anesthetized and in a huge cyclatron-sized MRI, having CT scans or in surgery for years. None would have be free to crush her skull. See how PETA would like that! [...] 19659 49 16_Re: Nature lover13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il31_Fri, 14 Mar 2003 17:07:59 +0200161_iso-8859-1 It is from an email newsletter I get called "Idiot Stories". The story has such a charming message that I'd certainly hate to think it's not true. Jon 19709 179 29_The meaning of the word Galil0_15_NEVETS2@aol.com29_Fri, 14 Mar 2003 13:29:32 EST420_US-ASCII Chevre, Shalom

Simple, innocent question, no? Just posed to me a few days ago. Me - stumped!

We hard working chevre who own and operate Machaneh Galil on behalf of the Movement just want to know the meaning of the word after which our treasured machaneh is named. If course Galil refers to the Galilee. But what does Galil MEAN? Why is the Galil, itself, named the "Galil"? And not Shamokin? [...] 19889 129 33_Re: The meaning of the word Galil9_Ilana Ron20_ilanaron@hotmail.com31_Fri, 14 Mar 2003 18:48:21 +0000614_- Hi everyone:

It is my understanding that "Galil" as a geograhical term emerged during the time of the Old Testament referring to the area of the Land of the Israel where many non-Jews mingled with Jews in a so-called cylindrical shape. It was thought that the Galil was really the "Galil of the Gentiles" as within this territory, as opposed to Jerusalem and other predominantly at the time Jewish cities, there were both Jews and gentiles. Surrounding this cylibder lived Phoenicians to the West, Syrians to the North and East, and Samaritans to the South. Hopefully, for Machaneh Galil's purposes, [...] 20019 56 14_Re: Whose War?0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Fri, 14 Mar 2003 14:22:20 EST565_US-ASCII Steve Klein,

My post was addressed to you.

Iraq is a sovereign country. It shows up on world maps, it has a seat at the UN. It existed before Saddam Hussein. Saddam himself may (is) as illegitimate a bastard as they come - but he is not the same as the country of Iraq. I take it as a fairly well established principle that it is not polite etiquette for folks from one country (even the US) to bring about regime change in another country. Usually, such behavior (it does happen) is called aggression, and many countries have pact with [...] 20076 143 33_Re: The meaning of the word Galil13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Fri, 14 Mar 2003 16:42:06 -0500515_us-ascii Dear Steve,

My understanding is that Galil comes from the words gal and galit. It refers to the rolling hills of the galil that look like waves in an ocean when you look down from the Golan or from the Upper Galilee.

I learned this from an Israeli with a PhD in comparative anthropology who was very interested in the non-Jewish history of the Galil so I think that if she had been familiar with Ilana's derivation, she would have related that because it fit her general field of study. [...] 20220 717 18_Fallaci in the WSJ13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il31_Fri, 14 Mar 2003 23:44:06 +0200547_utf-8 The Rage, the Pride and the Doubt Thoughts on the eve of battle in Iraq.

BY ORIANA FALLACI Thursday, March 13, 2003 12:01 a.m.

To avoid the dilemma of whether this war should take place or not, to overcome the reservations and the reluctance and the doubts that still lacerate me, I often say to myself: "How good if the Iraqis would get free of Saddam Hussein by themselves. How good if they would execute him and hang up his body by the feet as in 1945 we Italians did with Mussolini." But it does not help. Or it helps [...] 20938 53 15_Not for veggies13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il31_Fri, 14 Mar 2003 23:55:08 +0200158_windows-1255 For those of you who are offended by the PETA "holocaust" campaign...

http://www.yourish.com/archives/2003/feb23-mar1_2003.html#2003030102 20992 27 19_Re: Not for veggies12_David Fleiss20_dfleiss@pipeline.com37_Fri, 14 Mar 2003 18:00:09 -0500 (EST)434_us-ascii International Eat An Animal For PETA Day! What a wonderful idea!

Personally, I have always found that the animal rights crowd usually holds animals in higher regard than they do other people. The disgusting web site mentioned by Noam, in which PETA suggests that the slaughter of animals for human consumption is analogous in some fashion to the Shoah, is typical of the misanthropism of the animal rights crowd. [...] 21020 77 17_Fwd: Nature lover0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com29_Fri, 14 Mar 2003 20:11:25 EST51_US-ASCII I sent the article to a friend, his reply: 21098 130 27_Habonim mention in Ha'aretz0_14_KBob24@aol.com29_Fri, 14 Mar 2003 20:30:50 EST693_US-ASCII Third generation soldier fighting occupation

By Charlotte Halle







Detroit-born Reuven Kaminer visited his son in military prison for being a conscientious objector 20 years ago. He has lately been visiting his grandson, who has refused to be drafted into the army.

Kaminer, a veteran peace activist, who stood trial in 1986 for meeting with the PLO when it was illegal for Israelis to do so, says he fully supports his 19-year-old grandson. Matan Kaminer, who spent several years of his childhood in California, has served 100 days in a military jail since refusing to be drafted at the IDF [...] 21229 105 15_Black and White0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Sat, 15 Mar 2003 12:13:27 EST368_US-ASCII Dear Friends,

The Falaci article made me think. We see things through many different lenses. We all see the world through the lens of what we believe is good for Israel and for peace. Many see the interests of the United States (whether or not those are represented by Mr. Bush). Some see with prominence the shadows and flashes of anti-Semitism. [...] 21335 223 36_Fish Talks, Town Buzzes/ NYTimes :))11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org31_Sat, 15 Mar 2003 11:39:47 -0600457_ISO-8859-1

March 15, 2003 Fish Talks, Town Buzzes By COREY KILGANNON



NEW SQUARE, N.Y., March 13 — And so it came to pass that a talking carp, shouting in Hebrew, shattered the calm of the New Square Fish Market and created what many here are calling a miracle.

Of course, others are calling it a Purim trick, a loopy tale worthy of Isaac Bashevis Singer or just a whopping fish story concocted by a couple of meshugenehs. [...] 21559 53 33_Population Transfers, Amnon Style12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Sat, 15 Mar 2003 22:46:32 +0200617_us-ascii Haverim/ot I was categorically opposed to Rehavam Ze'evis noxious suggestion of population transfer because it meant Jews would force Palestinians out of Palestine. But I'm beginning to see that with some fine tuning it might work. For me anything that reduces friction, occupation and killing qualifies as something that works. The Jews of Hebron are a case in point. Among them one finds some of the most malodorous contentious Arab bashers. These bully boys also beat up Israeli police, puncture their tires and they receive threats of violence or worse on their home phones. They are not run out of [...] 21613 63 37_Re: Population Transfers, Amnon Style0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com29_Sat, 15 Mar 2003 17:09:32 EST376_US-ASCII In a message dated 3/15/03 3:45:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, amriv@netvision.net.il writes:

> The Jews of Hebron are a case in point. > Among them one finds some of the most malodorous contentious Arab bashers. > These bully boys also beat up Israeli police, puncture their tires and they > > receive threats of violence or worse on their home phones > > [...] 21677 52 37_Re: Population Transfers, Amnon Style0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com29_Sat, 15 Mar 2003 20:58:10 EST338_US-ASCII In a message dated 3/15/03 5:10:16 PM Eastern Standard Time, Smfgrappa@aol.com writes:



> Aha, truth is spoken on erev Shabbat. I second Amnon's call for removing the > right wing thugs from Hebron. Anybody willing to come on board? Who will >

What about leave them there and take away their security guards? 21730 41 37_Re: Population Transfers, Amnon Style12_David Fleiss20_dfleiss@pipeline.com31_Sat, 15 Mar 2003 23:00:21 -0500 21772 60 37_Re: Population Transfers, Amnon Style0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com29_Sun, 16 Mar 2003 00:07:45 EST344_US-ASCII In a message dated 3/15/03 11:01:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, dfleiss@pipeline.com writes:



> I am deeply disturbed by the idea that anybody should be told where they can > or cannot live because of their race, religion, or ethnicity. >

Is this true in Israel? Can Arabs move into any neighborhood they want? [...] 21833 68 37_RE: Population Transfers, Amnon Style11_Batel Libes25_batel_libes@earthlink.net31_Sat, 15 Mar 2003 22:38:59 -0800449_us-ascii I'll third. And yes, people certainly do and should have the right to live where they wish, but that has nothing to do with the K.A. settlement or any others. These are mutually exclusive points. Batel

-----Original Message----- From: owner-habonet@shamash.org [mailto:owner-habonet@shamash.org]On Behalf Of Amnon Hadary Sent: Saturday, March 15, 2003 12:47 PM To: Habonet@shamash.org Subject: Population Transfers, Amnon Style [...] 21902 65 37_Re: Population Transfers, Amnon Style0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com29_Sun, 16 Mar 2003 07:39:12 EST334_US-ASCII In a message dated 3/16/03 1:40:22 AM Eastern Standard Time, batel_libes@earthlink.net writes:

> > > I'll third. And yes, people certainly do and should have the right to live > where they wish, but that has nothing to do with the K.A. settlement or any > others. These are mutually exclusive points. > Batel > > [...] 21968 53 37_Re: Population Transfers, Amnon Style0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Sun, 16 Mar 2003 09:11:08 EST199_US-ASCII In a message dated 3/16/2003 1:40:15 AM Eastern Standard Time, batel_libes@earthlink.net writes:



> These are mutually exclusive points. > Batel >

Please explain. Dennis 22022 80 37_Re: Population Transfers, Amnon Style0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Sun, 16 Mar 2003 09:49:52 EST584_US-ASCII Dear Sam,

I feel you waiting for my assent. (A fifth, so to speak)

I do not know the groups you, Amnon and others speak of with such recurrent vitriol. I assume that even though the geography is different you place Pearl in this group. Is that correct?

Jewish manifest destiny is the same as Pan Arabism. There are many who would be pleased (satisfied) in their hearts to see it come about, and a radicalized few who would sacrifice everything to make it so. By "everyth ing" I include themselves and the needs and desires of others. The strategies [...] 22103 30 2_PS0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Sun, 16 Mar 2003 10:08:02 EST437_US-ASCII Sam,

In the interest of accuracy (and self preservation) my last posting, in considering parallels between Arab terrorists and Biblical Israelists, did not intend to suggest moral equivalency, or immoral equivalency, equal harm, etc., but rather to note the existence of entities on either side with parallel (and mutually exclusive) objectives, albeit, different means and different scales of activity (I presume). [...] 22134 54 37_Re: Population Transfers, Amnon Style0_14_LHIAM1@aol.com29_Sun, 16 Mar 2003 10:11:06 EST541_US-ASCII Chevre, I have thought long and hard about this and usually I have to think even harder if I tend to disagree with Amnon but this time I do. I think that population transfer no matter what the conditions is an evil thing. I think instead of transferring the settlers of Hebron and Kiryat Arba back home to Israel proper and THEN giving that land mass to the Palestinians --- I think we MUST allow them to live there and THEN return the land... I am sure that whatever consequences result will be fair and just. How is THAT for [...] 22189 27 37_Re: Population Transfers, Amnon Style0_13_JLCAA@aol.com29_Sun, 16 Mar 2003 11:12:01 EST517_US-ASCII I'll be the fifth -- or take the fifth, providing its Kettle One on the rocks with a twist.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Protecting the Jewish zealots in Hebron isn't worth the life of one Israeli soldier.

Avi Lyon

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 22217 106 66_Fwd: American woman peace activist killed by IDF bulldozer in Gaza12_David Fleiss20_dfleiss@pipeline.com31_Sun, 16 Mar 2003 11:56:32 -0500 22324 39 37_Re: Population Transfers, Amnon Style12_David Fleiss20_dfleiss@pipeline.com31_Sun, 16 Mar 2003 12:03:15 -0500387_us-ascii To clarify my previous message: I don't know whether Arabs have the right to live wherever they choose in Israel, but I believe they should. Likewise, if Jews choose to live in any Arab or Muslim state, they should be allowed to do so.

In the short term, part of me agrees that the IDF deployment of soldiers to protect settlers should be scaled back or terminated. [...] 22364 73 37_Re: Population Transfers, Amnon Style0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com29_Sun, 16 Mar 2003 12:12:25 EST358_US-ASCII In a message dated 3/16/03 11:12:56 AM Eastern Standard Time, JLCAA@aol.com writes:

> > > I'll be the fifth -- or take the fifth, providing its Kettle One on the > rocks > with a twist. > > I've said it before and I'll say it again. Protecting the Jewish zealots > in > Hebron isn't worth the life of one Israeli soldier. > > Avi Lyon > [...] 22438 62 37_Re: Population Transfers, Amnon Style0_18_Brianscoop@aol.com29_Sun, 16 Mar 2003 13:07:40 EST286_US-ASCII In a message dated 3/16/03 7:40:07 AM Eastern Standard Time, Smfgrappa@aol.com writes:

> Thank you very much. We have a third ( and a thoughtful one at that ) and > I suppose in his own way Richard gave us a fourth. Is that it just four > people for Amnon's point? [...] 22501 65 37_Re: Population Transfers, Amnon Style0_18_Brianscoop@aol.com29_Sun, 16 Mar 2003 13:11:07 EST365_US-ASCII In a message dated 3/16/03 11:12:50 AM Eastern Standard Time, JLCAA@aol.com writes:

> I've said it before and I'll say it again. Protecting the Jewish zealots in > > Hebron isn't worth the life of one Israeli soldier. >

I think Gaza is even less justifiable.

--Brian

----------------------------- Brian Cooper brianscoop@aol.com 22567 159 19_Re: Black and White8_molieric25_molieric@netvision.net.il31_Sun, 16 Mar 2003 20:16:02 +0200432_iso-8859-1 Dear Dennis,

I am so impressed with your theory of the current World Problem of our Time that I am going to send it on others, who I think will also appreciate reading your theory.

You've given us plenty of food for thought. Keep it up.

Mollie Marx ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, March 15, 2003 7:13 PM Subject: Black and White [...] 22727 21 37_Re: Population Transfers, Amnon Style0_13_JLCAA@aol.com29_Sun, 16 Mar 2003 13:23:18 EST593_US-ASCII Agreed.

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/

* * FREE JEWISH LEARNING * * Shamash invites you to join MyJewishLearning.com, a comprehensive, objective, authoritative and interactive learning resource in all areas of Judaism. Free membership via http://www.myjewishlearning.com/shamash ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 22749 35 8_TRANSFER14_Martin Goodman26_martinjgoodman@hotmail.com31_Sun, 16 Mar 2003 10:56:05 -0800675_iso-8859-8-i In Habonet Digest 2528, Amnon and Sam advociate forceable transfer of Hebron Jews from their homes in order to reduce Israeli casualties. I suspect however that they would oppose transfer of Israeli Arabs or of West Bank or Gaza Palestinians, even for the avowed purpose of saving Palestinian lives.

Personally, I believe that once willingness on the part of Palestinian representatives to negotiate is detected, Israel should seek to focus negotiations on transfers of territory [i.e., Jewish population centers of the West Bank to Israel and Palestinian population centers of the Meshulash/Galil to the Palestinian governing entity] rather than on [...] 22785 71 37_Re: Population Transfers, Amnon Style0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com29_Sun, 16 Mar 2003 15:22:25 EST262_US-ASCII In a message dated 3/16/03 1:11:45 PM Eastern Standard Time, Brianscoop@aol.com writes:

> > I think Gaza is even less justifiable. > > --Brian



I second that motion. Here we go again.

> > -----------------------------

22857 168 19_Re: Black and White15_Lorraine Kotler20_lorraine@infinet.com31_Sun, 16 Mar 2003 17:09:47 -0500571_iso-8859-1 Bravo!!!

Lorraine

> Dear Friends, > > The Falaci article made me think. We see things through many different > lenses. We all see the world through the lens of what we believe is good for > Israel and for peace. Many see the interests of the United States (whether > or not those are represented by Mr. Bush). Some see with prominence the > shadows and flashes of anti-Semitism. > > I have looked at things alternately through two lenses: that of the > Israel-Arab war and that of the global positioning of Islam. These have come > together [...] 23026 160 37_Interesting article by Alistair Cooke10_M. Skolnik20_emskol@bellsouth.net31_Sun, 16 Mar 2003 20:12:10 -0500550_us-ascii

Subject: A bit of history

Peace for our time! The following is from an article by Alistair Cooke.

Peace for our time by Alistair Cooke

I promised to lay off topic A - Iraq - until the Security Council makes a judgment on the inspectors' report and I shall keep that promise. But I must tell you that throughout the past fortnight I've listened to everybody involved in or looking on to a monotonous din of words, like a tide crashing and receding on a beach - making a great noise and saying the same thing [...] 23187 37 6_Hevron13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Sun, 16 Mar 2003 21:05:31 -0500337_us-ascii Dear Sam and Amnon,

Why expend IDF energy removing them? Why not just withdraw the IDF?

When my nephew served in Hevron 3 years ago, he walked young students to and from school 6 days a week and the arabs threw stones at them. On shabbat, if he drove by the same students on patrol, they threw stones at him. [...] 23225 78 53_=?ISO-8859-1?B?4fLw6envOiBIQUJPTkVUIGRpZ2VzdCAyNTI5?=18_Yonina Matz Lamdan18_yonina@urim.org.il31_Mon, 17 Mar 2003 08:47:32 +0200391_ISO-8859-1 Shalom! I'm sending an invitation in hopes that some alumni will be visiting Israel in the next two months! Yonina Lamdan, as always, hoping for peace! ----- Original Message ----- From: Habonim Dror Alumni Virtual Machaneh To: Habonim Dror Alumni Virtual Machaneh Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 7:11 AM Subject: HABONET digest 2529 [...] 23304 4048 63_=?windows-1255?B?5PLh+OQ6IEludml0YXRpb24gdG8gTmV3IEV4aGliaXQ=?=18_Yonina Matz Lamdan18_yonina@urim.org.il31_Mon, 17 Mar 2003 08:47:53 +0200559_windows-1255

----- Original Message ----- From: Jeanne Waldman To: Undisclosed-Recipient:; Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2003 10:25 PM Subject: Invitation to New Exhibit







Shalom! You are cordially invited to my new exhibit:

"OTHER DAYS"

Artist: YONINA LAMDAN



CURATOR: MICKEY BANAI PAINTINGS AND SCULPTURES

OPENING: Wednesday, March 26, 2003 7:30 PM Cultural Center ASHKELON

Under the auspices of Mayor Bennie Vaknin Organization and Program: Ms. Nitza Ben Tzvi Ashkelon, Israel [...] 27353 471 75_=?windows-1255?B?5PLh+OQ6IEZvb2QgZm9yIHRob3VnaHQgLS0gdHdvIGFydGljbGVzIA==?=18_Yonina Matz Lamdan18_yonina@urim.org.il31_Mon, 17 Mar 2003 09:14:32 +0200696_windows-1255

----- Original Message ----- From: Jeanne Waldman To: Undisclosed-Recipient:; Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 12:21 AM Subject: Food for thought -- two articles



Jodie Gould Diamand has forwarded the following two articles.



PEACE ISN'T POSSIBLE IN EVIL'S FACE Elie Wiesel Los Angeles Times, March 11, 2003

Under normal circumstances, I might have joined those peace marchers who, here and abroad, staged public demonstrations against an invasion of Iraq. After all, I have seen enough of the brutality, the ugliness, of war to oppose it heart and soul. Isn't war forever cruel, the ultimate form of violence? It inevitably generates not [...] 27825 55 65_=?windows-1255?Q?RE:_=E4=F2=E1=F8=E4:_Invitation_to_New_Exhibit?=4_Meir21_meir_h@maccabi.org.il31_Mon, 17 Mar 2003 09:36:30 +020047_windows-1255 Congratulations Yonina

Meir 27881 2027 61_=?iso-8859-8?B?Rnc6IFJlOiBIYXBweSBQdXJpbSEg9OX46e0g+e7nICE=?=13_moshe sheskin24_moshes7@netvision.net.il57_Mon, 17 Mar 2003 10:19:47 +0200 (Jerusalem Standard Time)318_windows-1255



-------Original Message-------

From: Moshe Date: Sunday, March 16, 2003 14:56:19 To:Subject: Re: Happy Purim! ôåøéí ùîç !

-----Original Message----- From: rubi@iec.co.il [mailto:rubi@iec.co.il] Sent: Sunday, March 16, 2003 7:38 AM Subject: ôåøéí ùîç !





29909 45 37_RE: Population Transfers, Amnon Style12_Stopak, Noam20_NStopak@orionsci.com31_Mon, 17 Mar 2003 06:25:59 -0500442_iso-8859-1 I'm in with Hiam. Forced transfer is evil no matter who is being transferred.

Let them stay if they want. Let them live with their neighbors without IDF protection. Perhaps that will inspire them to be more neighborly.

Noam

-----Original Message----- From: LHIAM1@aol.com [mailto:LHIAM1@aol.com] Sent: Sunday, March 16, 2003 10:11 AM To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: Re: Population Transfers, Amnon Style [...] 29955 55 63_Re: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=E4=F2=E1=F8=E4?=: Invitation to New Exhibit13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Mon, 17 Mar 2003 06:47:54 -0500 30011 116 10_Re: Hevron0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com29_Mon, 17 Mar 2003 06:51:38 EST594_US-ASCII In a message dated 3/16/03 9:02:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, gelman@erols.com writes:

> > Dear Sam and Amnon, > > Why expend IDF energy removing them? Why not just withdraw the IDF?



Good question Judy. The problem is that much of what the Amry does in Hebron is to protect the Arabs from the Jews. Just withdrawing the Army offers the possiblity of a bloodbath. However if the choice is between doing nothing and withdrawing the Army I would obviously prefer some action. There are other choices. One is to get rid of the financial incentives ( and they are [...] 30128 42 10_Re: Hevron13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Mon, 17 Mar 2003 07:18:10 -0500400_us-ascii Dear Sam,

Yes, I agree that there should be no government or Jewish Agency subsidies in any form at all of the Jews in Hevron. I have registered my protest against the UJC expending Israel Emergency Funds on safety inside the Green Line for precisely this reason. If a way could be found, I would block the money coming from Orthodox communities in the US that support them too. [...] 30171 26 16_Re: Hevron-Oops!13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Mon, 17 Mar 2003 07:29:01 -0500478_us-ascii Sorry! That should read "outside the Green Line" -- I gave my money with the understanding it would be spent inside the Green Line, of course. I object to the change in policy.

Warmly, Judy Gelman

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 30198 129 10_Re: Hevron0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com29_Mon, 17 Mar 2003 08:02:11 EST329_US-ASCII In a message dated 3/17/03 7:16:10 AM Eastern Standard Time, gelman@erols.com writes:

> > I am not opposed to population transfers of any kind on any grounds even > though I think they are highly problematic, but I hate to see the IDF > risking the lives of young men like my nephews to remove these people. [...] 30328 36 17_Serving in Tzahal14_Martin Goodman26_martinjgoodman@hotmail.com31_Mon, 17 Mar 2003 07:22:47 -0800459_iso-8859-8-i 16 March 2003

In Habonet Digest 2529, Judy Gelman writes, "" When the people who live in Hevron are willing to serve in the army, they will have earned its protection. ""

To the best of my knowledge, most of the settlers in Hebron and nearby Kiryat Arba are Orthodox Jews (not Charedim) that serve in Tzahal. There is of course no justification for the animosity of some Hebron settlers against the soldiers that protect them. [...] 30365 314 20_Population Transfers12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Mon, 17 Mar 2003 18:29:34 +0200560_us-ascii Hiam, You wrote > I think that population transfer no matter what the conditions is an evil thing. I think instead of transferring the settlers of Hebron and Kiryat Arba back home to Israel proper and THEN giving that land mass to the Palestinians --- I think we MUST allow them to live there and THEN return the land... I am sure that whatever consequences result will be fair and just. How is THAT for tough love? Hiam< I don't agree that all population transfers are equally evil; some things are worse. As you know, I'm not a relativist. You [...] 30680 28 6_Hebron16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Mon, 17 Mar 2003 11:42:51 -0500479_us-ascii Just an obiter dictum. There was a continuous Jewish presence in Hebron from ancient times until 1936, when the remnant of Hebron's Jews was forcibly removed by the British. So, in a perverse historical sense, one can say that Jews have every historical right to live in that wretched town. It is, of course, an entirely separate matter whether or not it is sensible for Zahal to expend effort defending Hebron's Jewish residents. As I say, just a passing thought. [...] 30709 52 7_manners16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Mon, 17 Mar 2003 11:53:18 -0500620_us-ascii The following quote by Princeton's distinguished emeritus professor of middle east studies Bernard Lewis, is a gem:

Another example of differing interpretations of conduct is the is significance of manners and customs: I visited Jordan some time after the signing of the peace agreement on which the Jordanians bed much hope, and I found the Jordanians agitated over the conduct of the Israeli tourists which they saw as provocative and humiliating. It was difficult for me to explain to them that Israelis behave that way even to each other. The Israelis, who seem to be the least polite people in [...] 30762 102 28_Re: Happy Purim! ????? ??? !11_Jack Porter23_jacknusan@earthlink.net31_Mon, 17 Mar 2003 12:53:16 -0800753_US-ASCII on 3/17/03 12:19 AM, moshe sheskin at moshes7@netvision.net.il wrote:





-------Original Message-------

From: Moshe Date: Sunday, March 16, 2003 14:56:19 To:Subject: Re: Happy Purim! ????? ??? !

-----Original Message----- From: rubi@iec.co.il [mailto:rubi@iec.co.il] Sent: Sunday, March 16, 2003 7:38 AM Subject: ????? ??? !













____________________________________________________ IncrediMail - Email has finally evolved - Click Here

Happy Purim and fron Boston Happy St. Paddy's Day to all. Let's hope Sadam ends up like all Hamans and he will, but how many of our fine soldiers (and their's) and innocent civilians will die before he is found? [...] 30865 170 28_The party that loves to hate7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Mon, 17 Mar 2003 20:56:18 +0200506_windows-1255 The following article was written by the man who was the closest the longest to Yitzhak Rabin, and it was he who announced to the world that Yitzhak Rabin had died That is why I was shocked, yet pleased and vindicated, to read the following article he wrote. After reading a few of the letters in Habonet of late I think it is in place to read the following article written by Eitan Haber. Perhaps the worst offenders will recognize themselves. (the article was written over a year ago). [...] 31036 39 24_Re: Population Transfers0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Mon, 17 Mar 2003 14:46:44 EST597_US-ASCII Amnon,

I hope that was as much fun to write as it was to read.

Dennis

As usual your quotes raise some puzzling questions. I get the impression the "Promised Land" consisted first of a promise, with Abraham making a preliminary judgment, "this is it." Then he and Lot decide to split up (I have always thought that the intended message here was to keep out of cities, but not many of us have made the same interpretation) Abraham lets Lot decide by default where he (Abraham) will have dominion. So the ultimate definition of what constitutes the "Promised Land" [...] 31076 21 27_Jewish Pioneers in the West0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com31_Mon, 17 Mar 2003 15:57:32 -0500440_iso-8859-1 Does anyone know about a series on PBS that dealt with this? If so, I need the name of the film...Please email me at: sliberman@blazergrp.com..."Happy" Purim!..sue

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 31098 61 37_Re: Population Transfers, Amnon Style0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com29_Mon, 17 Mar 2003 16:02:13 EST350_US-ASCII In a message dated 3/17/03 6:26:13 AM Eastern Standard Time, NStopak@orionsci.com writes:



> I'm in with Hiam. Forced transfer is evil no matter who is being > transferred. > > Let them stay if they want. Let them live with their neighbors without IDF > protection. Perhaps that will inspire them to be more neighborly. > [...] 31160 48 37_Re: Population Transfers, Amnon Style20_Naomi Goldberg Honor18_naomijgh@yahoo.com37_Mon, 17 Mar 2003 14:45:38 -0800 (PST)554_us-ascii Emerging from deep lurkdom, I have to agree with Hiam's response to Amnon. I can still remember the woman saying that she didn't move from Brooklyn to live in Egypt at the time that Yamit was dismantled, and it annoyed me then.

If the Jews in Hebron and Kiryat Arba and other places are so committed to living on THAT land that they were promised, let them. Would the Quartet or the UN or anyone else stand by and allow the creation of a 'Judenrein' (I think I've got that right) Palestine? Is Israel suddenly going to expel all her [...] 31209 25 37_Re: Population Transfers, Amnon Style0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Mon, 17 Mar 2003 18:26:28 EST663_US-ASCII Richard,

I'm happy to blow it for you. Toot, toot. : - )

Dennis

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/

* * FREE JEWISH LEARNING * * Shamash invites you to join MyJewishLearning.com, a comprehensive, objective, authoritative and interactive learning resource in all areas of Judaism. Free membership via http://www.myjewishlearning.com/shamash ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 31235 37 33_Mel Gibson plans antisemitic film15_Lorraine Kotler20_lorraine@infinet.com31_Tue, 18 Mar 2003 00:59:07 -0500481_iso-8859-1 The March 9th New York Times magazine reported Mel Gibson's plans to use his own money and fame to make and promote a movie about Jesus' last days. In this movie he plans to graphically illustrate the "truth" that the Jews were to blame for Jesus' death. Gibson belongs to a fanatic Catholic sect that does not accept Vatican II and any Pope since John XXIII. His father denies the Holocaust and says that the Trade Center was destroyed by a remote control device. [...] 31273 40 28_The party that loves to hate12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Tue, 18 Mar 2003 10:47:55 +0200532_us-ascii Pearl wrote >Perhaps the worst offenders will recognize themselves.< I am quick to admit that I do. There are the quick and the dead and Swift. Swift wrote: "We have just enough religion to make us hate, but not enough to make us love one another." And in 'Plea for Less Malice Toward None' Ogdon Nash wrote "Any kiddie in school can love like a fool/ But hating, my boy is an art." While I'm in a mea culpa state of mind let me up the ante to matayim. This week I'm running a special on sanctimonious piety. The ones [...] 31314 167 32_Re: The party that loves to hate0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com29_Tue, 18 Mar 2003 07:55:26 EST426_US-ASCII In a message dated 3/18/03 3:47:03 AM Eastern Standard Time, amriv@netvision.net.il writes:

Amnon wrote

> So as a > secular agnostic laborite I have just enough residual religion in me to > hate the settlers in Hevron and the unrepentant Barukh Goldstein justifiers > > in Kiryat Arba and Igal Amir lovers on the other side of the fence. As the > > old labor song had it - Which Side Are You On? > [...] 31482 61 41_Two youths on Purim/ www.haaretzdaily.com11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org31_Tue, 18 Mar 2003 07:12:35 -0600509_us-ascii Two youths held for staging execution of PM Sharon in Kiryat Arba

By Haaretz Service









Youths staging an execution of a boy dressed as Prime Minister Ariel Sharon in Kiryat Arba on Monday. (Photo: Ariel Schalit)

Hebron Police arrested two 17-year-old youths who allegedly pointed a toy gun at a boy dressed up as Prime Minister Ariel Sharon during a memorial Monday night at Baruch Goldstein's tomb in Kiryat Arba, Army Radio reported Tuesday. [...] 31544 56 37_Re: Mel Gibson plans antisemitic film8_molieric25_molieric@netvision.net.il31_Tue, 18 Mar 2003 16:39:43 +0200460_iso-8859-1 Dear Lorraine,

I am upset about what I've learned about Mel Gibson. After reading the petitiononline, I signed it and added my comments (for what it's worth).

Thank you for sending it to Habonet. I will forward it on to others.

Mollie Marx ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lorraine Kotler" To: Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2003 7:59 AM Subject: Mel Gibson plans antisemitic film [...] 31601 173 37_RE: Mel Gibson plans antisemitic film12_Stopak, Noam20_NStopak@orionsci.com31_Tue, 18 Mar 2003 10:07:09 -0500602_iso-8859-1 FWIW, here's what the snopes.com site has to say about this:

Claim: Actor Mel Gibson's father dissmisses historical accounts of the Holocaust as impossible and denies that the September 11 terrorist attacks were perpetrated by Al Qaeda hijackers.

Status: True.

Example: [Collected on the Internet, 2003]



In the New York Times Magazine of Sunday, March 9, 2003 it is reported that Mel Gibson is making a film of the last 6 hours of the life of Jesus Christ in which he purports to tell the "truth", namely that the Jews are responsible for his death! [...] 31775 52 32_RE: The party that loves to hate12_Stopak, Noam20_NStopak@orionsci.com31_Tue, 18 Mar 2003 10:36:56 -0500455_windows-1255 Thank you Pearl for once again demonstrating your commitment to abstain from L'ashon Ha Rah which you are so insistent in decrying when practiced by others. The consistency with which you rail against this sin while at the same time perfecting its practice is an inspiration to us all.

Thanks also to Roz Barland for sharing the Purim piece about the friendly folks at Kiryat Arba who continue to perform acts of loving kindness. [...] 31828 63 20_The French in action13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il31_Tue, 18 Mar 2003 20:30:33 +0200315_windows-1255 A young Jewish student attends a debate on the Israeli-Palestinian question and sticks up for Israel. Hours later, she is attacked and has a star of David carved into her wrist. Where? Where else? Here's the story (in French):

http://fr.news.yahoo.com/030312/5/33csk.html





31892 286 25_FW: petition-- to forward10_Josh Cohen22_mazkir@habonimdror.org31_Tue, 18 Mar 2003 14:12:47 -0500439_us-ascii This is a petition that has been put out by the Labor Zionist Alliance -----Original Message----- From: LabZionA@aol.com [mailto:LabZionA@aol.com] Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2003 1:59 PM To: LabZionA@aol.com Subject: petition-- to forward





Please cut-and-paste the following into a fresh e-mail, and forward it to everyone you know. Please excuse any duplication if you have received this multiple times. [...] 32179 49 25_Re: petition-- to forward13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il31_Tue, 18 Mar 2003 21:51:29 +020098_iso-8859-1 Can somebody tell me if this statement represents the official position of the LZA? Jon 32229 48 6_Hebron14_Martin Goodman26_martinjgoodman@hotmail.com31_Tue, 18 Mar 2003 20:00:32 +0000376_- 18 March 2003

In the last several Habonet Digests, Jewish residents of Hebron have been portrayed in an unflattering light. Sam has referred to them as thugs. Amnon has referred to them metaphorically as latter-day residents of Sdom and Amorah. Others have expressed the opinion that the Hebronites are maniacs that are not entitled to the protection of Tzahal. [...] 32278 80 31_Re: Hebron and the busy beavers0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com31_Tue, 18 Mar 2003 15:40:40 -0500379_iso-8859-1 > 18 March 2003 > Marty says > In the last several Habonet Digests, Jewish residents of Hebron have been > portrayed in an unflattering light. Sam has referred to them as thugs.

Sam says

Let me say it again. They are thugs. Marty says Amnon > has referred to them metaphorically as latter-day residents of Sdom and > Amorah. Sam says Good one Amnon [...] 32359 96 31_Re: Hebron and the busy beavers0_18_Brianscoop@aol.com29_Tue, 18 Mar 2003 20:44:39 EST347_US-ASCII Marty wrote: >> ...in Hebron I saw something that is rarely >> seen inside the Green Line: Jews building their own homes >> with their own hands (avodah ivrit) rather than with foreign labor!

Sam answered: > What a funny thing that these folks who [...] let the Jewish people > support them should be cited for being workers. [...] 32456 636 27_Pro's and Con's (very long)10_M. Skolnik20_emskol@bellsouth.net31_Tue, 18 Mar 2003 21:05:33 -0500338_us-ascii Whether you agree with his sentiments or not, Tony Blair's speech today to the House of Commons is a fine piece of political polemic.

He won the subsequent vote 412 to 129.





This is the text of Prime Minister Tony Blair's statement opening the debate on the Iraq crisis in the House of Commons: [...] 33093 1068 15_Purim in Hevron13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Tue, 18 Mar 2003 22:38:51 -0500554_us-ascii Dear Friends,

I tried to send this earlier. In the mean time, Roz sent it. However, the picture is so chilling that I am resending the URL so you can go to see what passes for a Purim Joke in Hevron.

These are the people the IDF are guarding in Hevron, the people for whom 39 IDF soldiers died in recent days, the marvelous people who build homes with their own hands, the so-called "zionists" who will not even hire Palestinians to haul their garbage. And the Labor Party is accused of being full of people who hate? That is [...] 34162 235 37_RE: Population Transfers, Amnon Style11_Batel Libes25_batel_libes@earthlink.net31_Tue, 18 Mar 2003 23:03:22 -0800558_us-ascii I don't see a parallel drawn between the two points discussed--whereas one insinuates the other.

Batel





-----Original Message----- From: owner-habonet@shamash.org [mailto:owner-habonet@shamash.org]On Behalf Of DLerner569@aol.com Sent: Sunday, March 16, 2003 6:11 AM To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: Re: Population Transfers, Amnon Style

In a message dated 3/16/2003 1:40:15 AM Eastern Standard Time, batel_libes@earthlink.net writes:







These are mutually exclusive points. Batel [...] 34398 31 31_Re: Hebron and the busy beavers0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com31_Wed, 19 Mar 2003 08:57:42 -0500636_iso-8859-1 Thank you Brian for your expressing what I feel so articulately

Sam

Pittsburgh

> > And I, Brian, want to add, that these are NOT Labor Zionist values. That is one of the great lies of the settler movement. It is difficult to imagine a larger chasm than the enormous difference in values between a "mitnahel" and a "chalutz" for example. Further, Zionism today, demands many, far more complex scenarios and commitments than simply building your own home with your own hands: building the State and the economy through entrepreneurism, community cooperation, and, how > about, say, working for peace, [...] 34430 66 7_Zionism16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Wed, 19 Mar 2003 10:23:58 -0500561_us-ascii In Habonet 2531, Brian Cooper writes that

...these are NOT Labor Zionist values. That is one of the great lies of the settler movement. It is difficult to imagine a larger chasm than the enormous difference in values between a "mitnahel" and a "chalutz" for example. Further, Zionism today, demands many, far more complex scenarios and commitments than simply building your own home with your own hands: building the State and the economy through entrepreneurism, community cooperation, and, how about, say, working for peace, for example? [...] 34497 89 16_Kiryat Arba Jews0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Wed, 19 Mar 2003 11:30:19 EST345_US-ASCII I have been wrestling with the Kach/Kiryat Arba dialogue we've been having. As Sam suggested, I've done a Google search and read a number of items about these Jews. As always, when confronted with difficult issues, I try to start from what I think of as first principles. In this case I see the relevant first principles as being: [...] 34587 27 19_israel concert tour0_12_SHX2@aol.com31_Wed, 19 Mar 2003 15:42:32 -0500376_iso-8859-1 dear habonetters... i{m writing from sunny lima peru...the southern hemisphere seems likea good place to be at the moment... i finallygot around to writing up a little something about the concert tour andy statman,petter himelman and i did back in october inisrael...if you want, it{sat www.stevehancoff.com...just click on the
> > Mel Gibson is a Catholic traditionalist who has used some of the monies he > has earned as an actor to fund construction of a chapel in the Malibu, > California, area. This chapel, Holy Family, is one of 600 traditionalist > chapels in operation today (where, unlike most modern Catholic churches, > Sunday Mass is still conducted entirely in Latin) and is not recognized by > the OBR>Holy See. Catholic traditionalists view modern church reforms as the > work of either foolish liberals or hellbent heretics, preferring for > themselves a version of Catholicism as it was [...] 34704 70 21_Re: Serving in Tzahal7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Mon, 17 Mar 2003 21:15:31 +0200565_iso-8859-8-i Kiryat Arba is populated by many Russians and Ethiopians who could not afford to live anywhere else. The kitat konenut of Kiryat Arba are residents who have army background and fight together with the soldiers when there are attacks. The men in Hebron and Kiryat Arba serve in the army. The people of that area are people like everywhere else, and they are bleeding. It is wrong to condemn them when people have never even been to that area or do not even know people who live there. They have suffered very painful losses over the years. It is a [...] 34775 64 14_bike for arava0_15_Moshava@aol.com29_Thu, 20 Mar 2003 07:40:53 EST287_US-ASCII a mosh alum, jonathan katz, who has been living in jerusalem for many years will be participating in a bike ride through the arava in order raise awareness for the beauty in the area and show solidarity with israel. if you'd like to sponser him or just check it out go to: [...] 34840 39 29_RE: Mel Gibson and Vatican II12_Stopak, Noam20_NStopak@orionsci.com31_Thu, 20 Mar 2003 10:30:06 -0500326_iso-8859-1



> -----Original Message----- > From: Lorraine Kotler [mailto:lorraine@infinet.com] > Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2003 2:53 AM > To: habonet@shamash.org > Subject: RE: Mel Gibson and Vatican II > > ... > Noam, > > We all seem to be "selective" when it comes to promoting our > own points of view. [...] 34880 74 32_Re: The party that loves to hate7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Thu, 20 Mar 2003 14:21:31 +0200392_windows-1255 Noam, thank you for appreciating what is written, but it is Eitan Haber who should be thanked or rebuked, not me. Sending an article printed in the Israeli press, is not loshen hara. I did not write it, it was written by one with impeccable Labor Zionist credentials. If what is written by Mr.Haber is not true, you should refute what he wrote with "facts of your own." pps [...] 34955 90 31_Re: Hebron and the busy beavers7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Thu, 20 Mar 2003 13:47:10 +0200616_iso-8859-1 There happen to be many industrial areas and hi-tech parks, factories and workshops throughout Judea and Shomron. Thousands of Arabs were and still are employed there -- if the factories, etc remained open. These people can not be faulted for what you write below. Community cooperation is very highly developed. Everyone gives 10% of their salaries to help support injured, orphans and widows, and others who misfortune has visited. I venture that living with and among Arabs, working with them, and being with Arabs on a daily basis, IS working for peace. How exactly do you work for peace, except [...] 35046 2337 19_Re: Purim in Hevron7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Thu, 20 Mar 2003 13:34:17 +0200587_iso-8859-1 Article Staticthe picture is indeed shocking. What you were not told is that one of these boys is from Jerusalem and both were arrested after the picture appeared in the paper. It is wrong to blame an entire community for the misdeeds of a few hothead kids. I can testify that I have seen how the local population castigizes these boys when they act up, and does everything within their power to stop them when they overreact. These are NOT "the people" that the IDF is protecting. Generalizing is equivalent here to demonizing. Just to set the picture straight, several [...] 37384 45 32_RE: The party that loves to hate12_Stopak, Noam20_NStopak@orionsci.com31_Thu, 20 Mar 2003 12:41:20 -0500584_windows-1255



> -----Original Message----- > From: Skolnik [mailto:skolnik@netvision.net.il] > Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2003 7:22 AM > To: habonet@shamash.org > Subject: Re: The party that loves to hate > > > Noam, thank you for appreciating what is written, but it is > Eitan Haber who > should be thanked or rebuked, not me. Sending an article > printed in the > Israeli press, is not loshen hara. I did not write it, it > was written by > one with impeccable Labor Zionist credentials. > If what is written by Mr.Haber is not true, you should refute > what he [...] 37430 40 18_Re: bike for arava0_14_Ohanka@aol.com29_Thu, 20 Mar 2003 14:43:20 EST368_US-ASCII

In a message dated 3/20/03 7:41:27 AM, Moshava@aol.com writes:

<< a mosh alum, jonathan katz, who has been living in jerusalem for many years will be participating in a bike ride through the arava in order raise awareness for the beauty in the area and show solidarity with israel. if you'd like to sponser him or just check it out go to: [...] 37471 40 18_Re: bike for arava0_15_Moshava@aol.com29_Thu, 20 Mar 2003 16:36:12 EST149_US-ASCII hank, this jonathan katz is about 46 years old now. he has two sisters, tammy and naomi. is was on mb yud i think. and then on machon. tammy 37512 460 73_FW: Mis-captioned Reuters photo transforms accidental death into homicide11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Fri, 21 Mar 2003 07:47:29 -0800401_iso-8859-1 I APOLOGISE if this has already been sent in. It is valuable information, and worth the time to read.

Steve -----Original Message----- From: marcia plager [mailto:mplager@socal.rr.com] Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2003 6:37 PM To: Doug and Renee Goldenberg-Schwartz; Elly Krapek; Baruch Eichenbaum Subject: Fw: Mis-captioned Reuters photo transforms accidental death into homicide [...] 37973 27 77_Re: FW: Mis-captioned Reuters photo transforms accidental death into homicide12_David Fleiss20_dfleiss@pipeline.com37_Fri, 21 Mar 2003 13:40:19 -0500 (EST)463_us-ascii While I agree that Reuters' captions may have been misleading, Rachel Corrie's death was *not* an "unfortunate tragedy" -- it was murder.

When somebody shows a reckless disregard for human life, and that person's actions lead to the death of another person, that is called murder.

The unfortunate tragedy is that the Israeli government still believes that destroying homes is a reasonable solution to the problem of terrorist attacks. [...] 38001 31 77_Re: FW: Mis-captioned Reuters photo transforms accidental death into homicide0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Fri, 21 Mar 2003 16:19:54 EST389_US-ASCII David,

Please correct me if I am wrong:

The destruction of homes is a means of breaking an individual's tie to a piece of ground. Since most Arabs do not have established legal title to the lands they occupy, once their home is gone they no longer have ownership. So this is case by case dislocation. Not a very efficient means of population transfer, I'd say. [...] 38033 45 77_Re: FW: Mis-captioned Reuters photo transforms accidental death into homicide12_David Fleiss20_dfleiss@pipeline.com37_Fri, 21 Mar 2003 17:24:33 -0500 (EST)428_us-ascii Dennis,

I'm a little confused by your message.

Are you suggesting that the only homes destroyed by Tzahal are those which are constructed illegally? Does Tzahal conduct a title search for every house it bulldozes?

My point, which I thought I had made clear, was that destroying people's homes does not reduce the number of terrorists -- in fact, I believe it probably has the opposite effect. [...] 38079 26 77_Re: FW: Mis-captioned Reuters photo transforms accidental death into homicide0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Fri, 21 Mar 2003 21:52:27 EST476_US-ASCII David, I was saying that the reason (I presume) for tearing down houses is that it undermines the claim of that family to real estate in the West Bank or Gaza. Makes them stateless Arabs.

Dennis

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 38106 158 69_Mis-captioned Reuters photo transforms accidental death into homicide12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Sat, 22 Mar 2003 10:34:02 +0200598_us-ascii Dennis, you wrote: >Please correct me if I am wrong. < And my response is: Habonet is not a correctional institution nor do I want to come on like Officer Krupkey. One of the worst curses in Arab culture is *Yechrab beitakh* may your house be destroyed. Your house carries a much weightier denotative threat than a contested real estate deed. House equals a person's family, heritage, ultimate human value. This extends to one's cistern, olive grove, pasture, land. That is why the annual *Yom Ha'adamah* is such a potent rallying point for Israeli Arabs - both Christian and Muslim. [...] 38265 23 73_Re: Mis-captioned Reuters photo transforms accidental death into homicide0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Sat, 22 Mar 2003 10:16:42 EST611_US-ASCII Amnon, Todah Rabah Dennis

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/

* * FREE JEWISH LEARNING * * Shamash invites you to join MyJewishLearning.com, a comprehensive, objective, authoritative and interactive learning resource in all areas of Judaism. Free membership via http://www.myjewishlearning.com/shamash ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 38289 61 3_FYI13_richard smith19_rdsmith1957@msn.com31_Sat, 22 Mar 2003 10:56:28 -0500205_iso-8859-1 I have been out of the loop the last few days. Had to change internet providers and e-mail address. I am writing this so that those who need to know it now have access to my new address.

38351 51 77_RE: FW: Mis-captioned Reuters photo transforms accidental death into homicide11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Sat, 22 Mar 2003 09:00:53 -0800517_us-ascii David

I, for one, do not agree with your opinion. Apparently, Rachel Corrie shared quite a bit of the "reckless disregard" that you mentioned. Maybe most of it. She has become a martyr to her cause, however.

Steve

-----Original Message----- From: owner-habonet@shamash.org [mailto:owner-habonet@shamash.org]On Behalf Of David Fleiss Sent: Friday, March 21, 2003 10:40 AM To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: Re: FW: Mis-captioned Reuters photo transforms accidental death into homicide [...] 38403 920 16_thejc.com - News16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Sat, 22 Mar 2003 16:57:11 -050076_us-ascii

http://www.jchron.co.uk/news.asp?Page=3&Type=4&Record=20583 39324 990 45_Human shield for Saddam realizes he was naive13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Sun, 23 Mar 2003 07:35:40 -0500336_iso-8859-1 Dear Friends,

I thought some of you would be interested in the confession of a Jewish American, pro-Palestinian peace activist as to his naiveté with respect to Iraq.

Shalom, Judy Gelman

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2003/03/23/do2305.xml&sSheet=/opinion/2003/03/23/ixop.html 40315 165 20_Re: Kiryat Arba Jews7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Thu, 20 Mar 2003 20:51:55 +0200581_iso-8859-1 Dennis, you are making the same generalization: "the Kiryat Arba Jews" as if they are one type of people with one political belief. The people of K.Arba are very poor people, many of them secular Russians and Ethiopians who moved there because it was the cheapest place they could find with an excellent mutual aid society -- gemachim set up to help the needy. Their living there has nothing to do with politics. When K.Arba was established there was no Arab house in sight: they were walking distance to Hebron, but only after K.Arba was built did the Arabs start [...] 40481 61 32_Re: The party that loves to hate7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Sun, 23 Mar 2003 17:57:19 +0200495_windows-1255 loshen hara IS often true. I can read, and there have been recent letters by certain people on this list that the contents can only be described as vitriol. Name calling, and hatred were the contents. This can not be denied. It was there for everyone to read in black and white,clear as day.. pearl ----- Original Message ----- From: Stopak, Noam To: Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2003 7:41 PM Subject: RE: The party that loves to hate [...] 40543 65 76_Re: FW: Mis-captioned Reuters photo transforms accidental death intohomicide7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Sun, 23 Mar 2003 17:51:12 +0200433_iso-8859-1 she showed reckless regard for her own life. If you would see a D9 you would not believe how HUGE it is and how impossible it is to see a little lady standing directly in front of it. pearl ----- Original Message ----- From: Steve Klein To: Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2003 7:00 PM Subject: RE: FW: Mis-captioned Reuters photo transforms accidental death intohomicide [...] 40609 151 23_The Party That Hates II12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Sun, 23 Mar 2003 22:03:27 +0200399_us-ascii Haverot/im The saddest eulogy is the one a generation engraves on its own matzeva while it is still among the living. In the book 'Never Such Innocence' Martin Stephen the editor an of an anthology of poems written by British soldiers of the WWI speaks of the guilelessness and artlessness of the men who died making the world safe for democracy. The anger and the resolve came later. [...] 40761 32 16_Destroying Homes14_Martin Goodman26_martinjgoodman@hotmail.com31_Sun, 23 Mar 2003 14:21:30 -0800470_iso-8859-8-i Shalom Amnon,

In Habonet Digest 2535, you wrote regarding bulldozing of Palestinian homes, "" the inability to recognize the depth of commitment in another human being's existential attachments is to lull ones compassion, ones ability to empathize, ultimately ones humanity.""

How do you square this sentiment with your previous posting on Habonet in which you advocated forceable removal of Jewish residents of Chevron from their homes? [...] 40794 109 16_Destroying Homes12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Mon, 24 Mar 2003 08:36:20 +0200635_us-ascii



Marty Shalom, Subtle differentiations trumps reductionism any day. Double on Shabbat when a time honored tradition allows a member of the congregation delay the Torah reading by demanding a din tzedek 1. Forcible removal is a harsh way to save someone's life and the lives of many others who will otherwise be embroiled in generations -long hostilities with overwhelming numbers of Palestinians. 2. bulldozing of Palestinian homes is to make someone homeless and with no place to go (the Gaza Strip is one of the most crowded places in the world.) The people in the Gaza Strip are overwhelmingly refugees [...] 40904 108 22_Gesher Haziv volunteer16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Mon, 24 Mar 2003 12:23:50 -0500705_us-ascii The following item was distributed by Israeline, the internet news publication of Israel's New York consulate. It mentions as an obiter dictum that the English Baroness Susan Greenfield was a volunteer at Gesher Haziv in 1970. Anyone on Habonet recollect her?



> **World-Leader Neuroscientist Says Israeli Scientific Achievements Are Mind Boggling > > Israeli scientific achievements "are absolutely mind-boggling," according to Baroness Susan > Greenfield, the prominent British neuroscientist and Oxford professor of pharmacology, who visited > Israel last week as a guest of the Hebrew University in Jerusalem, ISRAEL21C reported. Greenfield, > who was named a life peer to [...] 41013 98 58_Fw: Passover at The J Site and 165 Websites about Passover7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Mon, 24 Mar 2003 19:32:43 +0200458_ISO-8859-1 this letter is from Jacob Richman, who knows everything there is to know about everything! Happy holiday to you all! pearl : Hi Everyone!

Passover is the Jewish holiday, of Biblical origin, marking the birth of the Jews as a people and their emergence as a unique nation in history, devoted to G-d's will. It celebrates the liberation of the children of Israel from slavery in Egypt over 3000 years ago, under the leadership of Moses. [...] 41112 75 34_searching for Kfar Blum volunteers0_15_NEVETS2@aol.com29_Wed, 26 Mar 2003 12:19:49 EST499_ISO-8859-1 Posted on Amy's behalf

====================================================== A friend of mine is trying to contact the alumni from Kibbutz Kfar Blum. Below is the information he sent me, and a link to his website. Can you guys help in this effort?

My Kfar Blum former volunteers website is www.goalweb.com/kfarblum It currently has about 250 former volunteers from around the world and across the decades who found the site searching the web, which is a cool concept. [...] 41188 49 15_A House Divided0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com31_Wed, 26 Mar 2003 13:50:32 -0500565_iso-8859-1 I love my sister. But the past weeks have seen us having heated "discussions" across the telephone lines. She is a staunch "New Yorker"- She marched at the UN for peace and down Broadway. She thinks Bush is a power-hungry maniac who is leadng the world into the destruction of huumanity, and turning the reputation of the United States into that of a "bully." She is ashamed of being an American, yet she revels in the fact that she can disagree and voice her opnion without being murdered or put in jail. I now live iin California, and have turned [...] 41238 98 26_If I Forget Thee Jerusalem12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Wed, 26 Mar 2003 21:35:56 +0200541_us-ascii Haverim/ot I have to backtrack a bit. Two or three days ago I wrote >what has being embattled in the homeland done to our exquisite moral and humane sensibilities when we were ourselves in exile? Justice for the orphan the widow the poor the stranger we were commanded because we were once in exile.> Well it comes out that even in exile we had poets who were (justifiably ?) bloody minded. The best remembered part of the short Psalm 137 ends with " "Let my tongue cleave to the roof of my mouth, if I remember thee not; if I [...] 41337 22 30_Re: If I Forget Thee Jerusalem0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com31_Wed, 26 Mar 2003 15:56:09 -0500571_iso-8859-1 I am not sure I understand your shame and embarrassment...is it the West bank settlers? Is it the haganah? Is it Jews everywhere? Is it the Warsaw ghetto uprisers? I am proud to be a Jew, and I am proud of Israel and the fact that it even exists is a miracle. In the past two days, I have read about advances by Israeli scientists working to cure diabetes and Parkinson's disease....tough to think about when the news is saturated with news of sandstorms and innocent Iraqis being killed along with American and British troops being ambushed and killed ( [...] 41360 631 44_Fwd: FW: An open letter to the Dixie Chicks:0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Thu, 27 Mar 2003 10:08:18 EST352_US-ASCII You don't have to read this- but I find it disconcerting that the famous use their popularity as bandstands for holier-than-thou statements in times of crises. I denounce blacklists and censorship, but somewhere there has to be a line of sensitivity that should not be crossed when fellow countrymen are giving their lives for your rights.-sue 41992 86 19_RE: A House Divided11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Thu, 27 Mar 2003 10:24:50 -0800592_iso-8859-1 Sue (and friends)

Thank you for expressing what a lot of us believe. With you, it's your sister; with me, it's my daughter. I feel betrayed somehow, by her marching up and down with placards that have nothing to do with reason or thought, and everything to do with feelings. I have been listening to the radio and television interviewers asking my daughter and her fellow marchers to explain their positions. To my shame, only dogma and empty moralizing come out. One placard read "The War is Racism". When asked, the college student answered (and I am not making this [...] 42079 138 19_Re: A House Divided0_13_Mmxmm@aol.com29_Thu, 27 Mar 2003 13:32:19 EST367_US-ASCII Sue, Steve et al,

I am dumbfounded and astonished by your criticism of those of us who choose to protest. If there's shame to be had....you need go no further then your mirror. As to 'Hollywood types' who protest...I applaud them for risking themselves [ careers ] to say in public what's in their hearts and minds. Give me Martin Sheen any day. [...] 42218 180 19_RE: A House Divided12_Stopak, Noam20_NStopak@orionsci.com31_Thu, 27 Mar 2003 13:42:57 -0500487_iso-8859-1 Hear hear Mark!

How about NOT invading and NOT sacrificing lives?

We are providing infrastucture? Gee you must have missed the interview with the Marine who was wishing we'd let them finish the highway to Baghdad before invading. What exactly do you think all those bombs are blowing up?

Funding for long term needs? Well certainly not from the dividend earning friends of the current administration. More like from your kids and grandkids and mine. [...] 42399 21 19_RE: A House Divided0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com31_Thu, 27 Mar 2003 14:25:01 -0500532_iso-8859-1 Some of us are going through real pain. As a child of the 60's, civil rights, marching in Washington, and a big advocate of free speech and equality, it has been appalling to MYSELF that I am so pro this war. No one likes war!!!! No one wants to go and die in a foreign land. But you "lefties" don't get it. We're there now. We are fighting for safety for the world and future. This man, who had no qualms of invading his neighbors and murdering his own people was being supplied with WMD's (some of which came from [...] 42421 65 19_RE: A House Divided12_Stopak, Noam20_NStopak@orionsci.com31_Thu, 27 Mar 2003 14:35:01 -0500401_iso-8859-1 Sorry Sue, but I think you are the one who doesn't get it.

There is nothing about opposing the war that spits on the soldiers who are fighting there. My beef is not with them, but with those who sent them and their ever shifting rationales for that deployment.

How long will it take you to see that there are other ways to deal with problems short of invading countries? [...] 42487 81 19_Re: A House Divided13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Thu, 27 Mar 2003 14:43:56 -0500574_iso-8859-1 It seems to me that there is a whole lot of mindlessness on both sides.

I agree that some of the protesters seem to have a less than solid or logical line of reasoning but there are others who have good, rational and thoughtful points to make. Dealing with the former is infuriating, no matter what side you are on: "Bush=Saddam" (seen on many posters) is idiotic; you don't have to think our appointed president is a right to know that he isn't cowing us into submission with rape rooms. Dealing with the latter--people who will argue point by point [...] 42569 113 19_Re: A House Divided0_13_Mmxmm@aol.com29_Thu, 27 Mar 2003 14:50:45 EST562_US-ASCII Sue,

Of course I'll take on the 'leftie' badge proudly. You seem so certain you are the one who 'get's it' while we 'dupes' shout worn out slogans like 'No War' or other shameful tag lines. In my mind, it is just the kind of near unilateral behavior which we witness now that lead to the kind of acts perpetrated on 9/11. Try perhaps to understand that many people in the rest of the world apparently experience our 'good will and intentions' with a high measure of skepticism at best and downright hatred for worse. Need you be reminded of [...] 42683 238 19_Re: A House Divided12_Sara Reisman25_sara.reisman2@verizon.net31_Thu, 27 Mar 2003 15:24:01 -0500582_US-ASCII I would agree with Marc...

If you grew up in Habonim-Dror, you might recall Dror's history of Jewish resistance to Nazism in places like Poland (was it the Lodz ghetto uprising?) leading up to WW2. I was proud of that history, in part because it showed that the Jews didn't just accept being criminalized, ghettoized, and then put in camps. There are many links one can make from WW2 to the current situation. Are you aware? that starting last fall Muslim and Arab men from 20 countries in the Middle East and N. Korea were required to register within specific [...] 42922 109 19_Re: A House Divided0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com29_Thu, 27 Mar 2003 19:50:35 EST552_US-ASCII Need you be reminded of a long list of really nasty dictators that your gov't. and mine has supported over the years or how the the US sat on the sidelines for decades as people were slaughtered in E. Timor.

East Timor is a very minor problem compared to what sorts of slaughters we have seen. 2 million people died in the Sudan and the dying goes on. The world sits by. Close to a million died in Rwanda. The world sat by. The blood diamond merchants from Europre have been financing murder in West Africa for decades. The French [...] 43032 160 17_Re: house divided13_richard smith19_rdsmith1957@msn.com31_Thu, 27 Mar 2003 22:15:45 -0500517_iso-8859-1 I may as well add my two cents to the fray as someone who continues to disagree with whoever I heard last.

1.. That silly letter to the Dixie Chicks is absurd. The complaint that they made their statement (which, by the way, only one of the three made) in a foreign land is a bit tiresome. After all it was made in England which is almost a 51st state now a days and is also involved in the war, in case anyone didn't notice. I (sort of) support the war and am still ashamed that we are led by [...] 43193 244 43_RE: FW: An open letter to the Dixie Chicks:11_Batel Libes25_batel_libes@earthlink.net31_Thu, 27 Mar 2003 21:58:56 -0800529_US-ASCII My daughter, 14, marched on Saturday in S.F. I was rather sick or else I would have joined her. Listening to radio coverage of the gathering and later the march, I had some tough minutes, especially as so many speakers spoke against Israel. But after much thought, I felt that her presence was more important than the message of these people. Miya said she felt the same when she returned. She was marching to protest war and call for peace. Just like the shirt she brought home, it said: Peace. (with the period). [...] 43438 462 25_Fwd: Bowling While Jewish0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Fri, 28 Mar 2003 02:03:55 EST17_US-ASCII

43901 75 24_Motz'ei Shabbat Concert!12_Doug Greener25_ddwgreen@netvision.net.il31_Fri, 28 Mar 2003 10:37:52 +0200354_windows-1255 Shalom,

Sorry for the late notice.

My choir, the Zamir Chorale, will be performing Saturday night March 29 (tomorrow!!) at 9:00 p.m. at Pardes Institute, 29 Pierre Koenig (corner of Rivka in Talpiot) in an interesting program combining our singing (most of the evening) with a short learning session (in English). NIS 30. [...] 43977 35 28_Re: Motz'ei Shabbat Concert!0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Fri, 28 Mar 2003 10:00:31 EST53_US-ASCII Mazal tov Trudy! Wish I were there! sue(sie) 44013 50 39_The power of words and the DIxie Chicks0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Fri, 28 Mar 2003 10:07:46 EST576_US-ASCII I love their music too. I have their cds. But they don't speak for me. I don't think "fame" gives one the right to speak "for the people." Fame has done a terrible thing to free speech and the conflict of equality. Susan Sarandon, while I love her too and believe she is extremely intelligent and a remarkable talent, cannot speak for me, Nor can Michael Moore, or Habonim/Dror's mazkirut. I have my own voice. Unfortunately, in times of crisis, it appears that some voices are "more equal" than others, and I don't appreciate people of 'fame" using their power [...] 44064 150 13_Iraqi Freedom14_Holtzer Family20_carmdave@urim.org.il31_Fri, 28 Mar 2003 18:10:59 +0200398_iso-8859-1 I have been quite concerned at the level of discussions recently about the cause of the war in Iraq. Certainly no one can deny that Saddam Hussein is a cruel dictator, started two wars that caused hundreds of thousands of casualities and used gas against Iran and even his own "loving" Iraqi people. I won't even pause to mention the 39 scuds directed at Israel in the Gulf War.... [...] 44215 87 12_Iraq in time16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Fri, 28 Mar 2003 10:15:17 -0500684_us-ascii In Habonet 2539, Judy Gellman writes that

> Iraq won't suddenly become Holland > Quite true. Because if current immigration and demographic trends continue, Holland within--as soon as--the next ten years will become the first Muslim majority European country. Dar al Islam in Europe! Something that Saladin and the Moorish conquerors and the Ottomans couldn't achieve will happen because of European liberalism. There are over six million North African muslims in France, mostly former colonials from Algeria and Morocco who received French citizenship when those colonies were governed as part of "metropolitan France." They moved to France when their countries [...] 44303 190 43_RE: The power of words and the DIxie Chicks11_Batel Libes25_batel_libes@earthlink.net31_Fri, 28 Mar 2003 07:25:19 -0800403_US-ASCII I don't think they ever claimed to speak for you or anyone else. They spoke for themselves. What is wrong with that, regardless of what they said?

-----Original Message----- From: owner-habonet@shamash.org [mailto:owner-habonet@shamash.org]On Behalf Of LiberHawke@aol.com Sent: Friday, March 28, 2003 7:08 AM To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: The power of words and the DIxie Chicks [...] 44494 205 19_RE: A House Divided11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Fri, 28 Mar 2003 09:20:25 -0800479_US-ASCII Sam

Hi. I'm not trying to be anything but honest here. I read your article as presented below. I agree with all of it. What is one to conclude from it? No action? Some action? Selective action? A feeling of guilt to have been complicit in allowing it to happen?(Entirely valid) How does this connect to what is going on now in Iraq? Besides my affinity for your friendship dating 'way back, I like the way you write, and am looking forward to your response. [...] 44700 74 38_Israel Declares 'Bamba' A Vital Staple5_heshi14_heshig@aol.com31_Fri, 28 Mar 2003 12:19:57 -0500689_- Greetings from: wcbs880.com! heshi recommends you check out this story from WCBS 880.

Israel Declares 'Bamba' A Vital Staple http://wcbs880.com/water/watercooler_story_087085606.html Even if Iraq attacks Israel with missiles, Israeli children will still be able to eat their peanut-buttery puffs.

The popular snack, known as "Bamba," was declared a vital staple food on Thursday, along with milk, sugar, flour and bread. That means the Tel Aviv-area factory that makes the peanut-flavored morsels can issue emergency call-up orders for its workers to ensure that production goes on, even in case of a missile attack.

"We see the Bamba factory as vital, [...] 44775 21 43_RE: The power of words and the DIxie Chicks0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com31_Fri, 28 Mar 2003 12:44:08 -0500316_iso-8859-1 When they said that they were ashamed fo being American, and Texans, they spoke in the names of Americans and Texans. You underestimate the power these words have on the rest of the world- to those who look upon these performers as icons- and especially those who would love to see us all dead.- Sue [...] 44797 246 43_RE: The power of words and the DIxie Chicks11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Fri, 28 Mar 2003 09:54:16 -0800498_US-ASCII Batel

There is nothing "wrong" with a person using his position or "bully pulpit" to express his personal opinion. It is legal, it is moral and it is Constitutional. The only thing I think that is unfortunate in this case is the unfairness of imbalance. Just as inner-city kids and others idolize tall humans that throw balls through metal hoops and hang on their EVERY word, and use them as ersatz role models, so, too, do millions of kids hang on the words of the pop idols. [...] 45044 80 24_The Coming Pax Americana11_Phil Safier17_psafier@elixa.com31_Fri, 28 Mar 2003 11:11:54 -0700487_iso-8859-1 The Coming Pax Americana Adrienne Larkin

In 1997, when the presidency of George W. Bush was nothing more than a twinkle in Karl Rove’s eye, a group called the Project for a New American Century, or PNAC, was founded with the goal of establishing a Pax Americana across the world. The Pax Americana was to be established, like the Pax Romana, by dint of vast and cold military superiority, engendering shock and awe in the hearts of all those who dare oppose them. [...] 45125 43 24_RE: Bowling While Jewish11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Fri, 28 Mar 2003 10:18:00 -0800347_US-ASCII For those of you that wish to inquire as to the veracity of the "Bowling While Jewish" incident, and/or to ask about the alleged actions of the crew down there, or just to express your feelings about this, if it is true, their telephone number is (734)994-8433

The address: Bel-Mark Lanes 3530 Jackson Rd. Ann Arbor, MI 48103 [...] 45169 85 10_Jews Rule!11_Phil Safier17_psafier@elixa.com31_Fri, 28 Mar 2003 11:19:18 -0700609_us-ascii Dear Steve Klein, Liber, and other Hawks,

The State of Israel owes you a debt of gratitude for advocating war on its behalf.

All right-thinking Jews should rejoice, our chests swelling with pride at the amazing coup d'etat achieved by Israel's Mossad and powerful American backers who have extracted G_d knows how many billion$ from gullible taxpayers and caused the military might of the USA to do its bidding. How powerful! How clever! Our tribe has proven once and for all how much smarter than the goyim we are. We have gotten the swine to debase their education, health care, [...] 45255 107 14_RE: Jews Rule!11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Fri, 28 Mar 2003 10:32:42 -0800432_US-ASCII Phil

You need to take a vacation. Quickly.

Steve

ps There is nothing snide or nasty in my suggestion. On my children I swear. Find some good friends and hole up for a while.





-----Original Message----- From: owner-habonet@shamash.org [mailto:owner-habonet@shamash.org]On Behalf Of Phil Safier Sent: Friday, March 28, 2003 10:19 AM To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: Jews Rule! [...] 45363 54 42_Re: Israel Declares 'Bamba' A Vital Staple13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il31_Fri, 28 Mar 2003 21:35:55 +0200173_windows-1255 Good story, Heshi! Another not-so well-known factoid is that the Israeli government has the same policy for the Dubek cigarette factory in Ramat Gan.

Jon 45418 21 14_Re: Jews Rule!0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com31_Fri, 28 Mar 2003 14:04:42 -0500441_iso-8859-1 Phil--Gotta love ya!- There are about 30-50 Jews left in Iraq- all over the age of 50- so Hussein has left them alone, not seeing THEM as any threat.--sue-the-hawk.

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 45440 142 16_Holtzer's letter13_moshe sheskin24_moshes7@netvision.net.il55_Fri, 28 Mar 2003 22:48:40 +0300 (Russian Standard Time)606_windows-1255 Re Dave Holtzer's letter



Dave, Your letter re your supporting the war against Iraq and the tyrannical Saddam, was a welcome relief from what I have been receiving lately. Rest assured that there are many of us Haboneters that agree with you. I just don't understand how Israelis can support a regime like Saddam's. I also don't understand why it should be put down to leftists, rightists or liberals. We are a country that has felt Saddam's wrath and we should be thankful that the coalition has interfered and will hopefully do away with this tyrant. While on the subject [...] 45583 192 15_9/11 was a hoax11_Phil Safier17_psafier@elixa.com31_Fri, 28 Mar 2003 14:41:48 -0700626_us-ascii 9/11 was a hoax: The American government killed its own people By John Kaminski Online Journal Contributing Writer March 24, 2003 - Opposed by everyone in the world who was not bought off, the illegal invasion of Iraq was undertaken for many reasons - the imminent replacement of the dollar by the euro as the world's primary currency, the tempting lure of untapped oil reserves, the desire to consolidate U.S./Israeli military hegemony over a strategically vital region - but the most important reason was to further obscure questions about the awesome deception staged by the American government that has come [...] 45776 21 20_Re: Holtzer's letter0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com31_Fri, 28 Mar 2003 16:36:30 -0500440_iso-8859-1 Moshe- hopefully the only sanctions the US will place on Canada is prohibiting production companies from shooting films there so we can take back our industry!-sue

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 45798 496 23_The Myth of Omnipotence11_Phil Safier17_psafier@elixa.com31_Fri, 28 Mar 2003 14:40:50 -0700 46295 60 19_Re: 9/11 was a hoax13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il31_Sat, 29 Mar 2003 00:41:59 +0200188_iso-8859-1 Phil, do you honestly believe this junk?

If not, why are you sending it?

If you do, well, I think a change of medication is in order.

No offense,

Jon 46356 55 16_Re: Iraq in time13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Fri, 28 Mar 2003 17:07:42 -0500 46412 74 42_Re: Israel Declares 'Bamba' A Vital Staple0_14_KBob24@aol.com29_Fri, 28 Mar 2003 17:26:12 EST612_US-ASCII In a message dated 3/28/2003 1:37:54 PM Eastern Standard Time, jonbaum@sasa.org.il writes:

> Good story, Heshi! Another not-so well-known factoid is that the Israeli > government has the same policy for the Dubek cigarette factory in Ramat > Gan.

Finally, a Habonet topic that I can speak about authoritatively - the strategic military value of the Dubek cigarette factory. As some of you know, I used to run a glue factory that was the main supplier of the sticky stuff that held the blue and white cancer sticks together. They kept a huge stock of "emergency glue" along with other [...] 46487 44 19_Re: 9/11 was a hoax0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com29_Fri, 28 Mar 2003 17:33:23 EST272_US-ASCII There is nothing that will pave the way to hell for all of us quicker than those who help to breed an infinate series of false and misleading conspiracy theories. Phil Sapir, shame on you for falling for this sort of crap and shame on you for passing it on. [...] 46532 42 43_RE: The power of words and the DIxie Chicks12_David Fleiss20_dfleiss@pipeline.com31_Fri, 28 Mar 2003 19:37:02 -0500379_us-ascii Sue,

I don't mean to be difficult, but you are sadly misinformed. The Dixie Chicks never said that they were ashamed of being Americans or Texans.

One member of the band said that she was ashamed that President Bush was from her home state of Texas.

Can you appreciate the world of difference between what was said and what you think was said? [...] 46575 185 58_Jewish Peace News/ Fisk: 'It was an outrage, an obscenity'0_24_purpleroot8@netscape.net31_Fri, 28 Mar 2003 21:36:21 -0500748_utf-8 Hello! The following article, which I received from Jewish Peace News, describes the true face of this war. Best, Shloime (Sol)



>Subject: [JPN] Fisk: 'It was an outrage, an obscenity' >Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 19:05:48 -0800 >From: "Jewish Peace News" >To: "JPN" >>---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> > >[I must begin by warning readers that the following article from Robert Fisk >is very graphic in its description of the death and destruction he is >witnessing first-hand in Baghdad right now. But I will also hope that our >readers will be willing to confront this article and its horrifying >descriptions of what [...] 46761 54 43_Re: 9/11 was a hoax/The myth of omnipotence13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Fri, 28 Mar 2003 22:08:52 -0500522_us-ascii Wow, Phil, thank you so much for letting me know that our government is so clever! How can such a stupid people generate leaders with such diabolical skill?

Having worked in the White House for a Democratic administration, I must say that I am really impressed that the Republicans have so much better control and planning and secrecy that they could pull this off. We couldn't plan anything without someone telling someone about it. And we sure couldn't have gotten anything of this magnitude right. [...] 46816 48 20_Re: Holtzer's letter14_Holtzer Family20_carmdave@urim.org.il31_Sat, 29 Mar 2003 06:07:38 +020021_windows-1255

46865 894 16_Check This Out!!14_Holtzer Family20_carmdave@urim.org.il31_Sat, 29 Mar 2003 06:21:21 +0200239_iso-8859-1





Yeah, I know this is a bit large - 45 Kb's, but it is cute...... Dave











Attachment: Geroge W. And Jacques.jpg (61.12KB)









47760 22 43_Re: 9/11 was a hoax/The myth of omnipotence14_Holtzer Family20_carmdave@urim.org.il31_Sat, 29 Mar 2003 06:25:49 +0200623_iso-8859-1 Very well put, Judy. --Dave



------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/

* * FREE JEWISH LEARNING * * Shamash invites you to join MyJewishLearning.com, a comprehensive, objective, authoritative and interactive learning resource in all areas of Judaism. Free membership via http://www.myjewishlearning.com/shamash ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 47783 36 22_Re:the cost of the war14_Holtzer Family20_carmdave@urim.org.il31_Sat, 29 Mar 2003 06:38:51 +0200582_iso-8859-1 I didn't even compare the relative costs of "the war" with the cost of a nuclear, biological or chemical terrorist attack on a major city. Think for a minute or two of the results following an attack on, say, St Louis, with a dirty bomb. First, the people cost - say, 30-50 killed, a couple hundred wounded from the initial bomb. Another 20 - 50 thousand people potentially affected from the radiation, which comes out 5-30 years down the road.... Next comes dollars. Figure out the cost of several square miles of expensive real estate being totally off limits for [...] 47820 105 22_Re:the cost of the war14_Ethan Schwartz23_arava_eilat@hotmail.com31_Sat, 29 Mar 2003 15:27:46 +0300678_iso-8859-1 ani hamoom

Ethan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Phil Safier"


Dear Steve Klein, Liber, and other Hawks,

The State of Israel owes you a debt of gratitude for advocating war on its behalf.

All right-thinking Jews should rejoice, our chests swelling with pride at the amazing coup d'etat achieved by Israel's Mossad and powerful American backers who have extracted G_d knows how many billion$ from gullible taxpayers and caused the military might of the USA to do its bidding. How powerful! How clever! Our tribe has proven [...] 47926 126 43_RE: The power of words and the DIxie Chicks12_Rita Katcher23_rkatchersusse@yahoo.com37_Sat, 29 Mar 2003 05:46:03 -0800 (PST)434_us-ascii Sue, you are absolutely right about the power of words, however, David is correct. A good source for separating fact from inflammatory fiction is www.snopes.com. On that website is the following:

""Just so you know," says singer Natalie Maines, "we're ashamed the president of the United States is from Texas."

The Dixie Chicks quickly offered an explanatory statement which did little to quell the furor: [...] 48053 54 43_Re: The power of words and the DIxie Chicks0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Sat, 29 Mar 2003 09:29:39 EST556_US-ASCII I won't quibble over her words, but if I could get angry from the INTENT- then imagine people who are just looking for things to pick on us. Performers from this country are "dugmaot"- They can have their opinions, but while "on the stage:- they need to be selective in what they spew out, especially now. Being "ashamed" of the President- who is the symbol for the American people AND the ultimate Chief of Staff, is, in my opinion, saying to the world you are ashamed of being an American and it has an awful effect on our troops. Whatever [...] 48108 81 43_RE: The power of words - I'm still confused12_Stopak, Noam20_NStopak@orionsci.com31_Sat, 29 Mar 2003 10:09:52 -0500530_iso-8859-1 Sue - I'm unclear about the need to shut up since we can express ourselves freely. Can you elaborate?

Thanks,

Noam

-----Original Message----- From: LiberHawke@aol.com [mailto:LiberHawke@aol.com] Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2003 9:30 AM To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: Re: The power of words and the DIxie Chicks



I won't quibble over her words, ... My sister used the same word and I asked her is she were "ashamed" of the opportunity to express herself freely- then she shut up!...sue 48190 60 6_screed16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Sat, 29 Mar 2003 11:13:36 -0500627_us-ascii In Habonet 2540, Phil Safier posted a long piece of screed copied from something called "davesweb" that included the following quote:

> The U.S. > military is discussed with awestruck reverence, its technological > superiority said to render it omnipotent, just after an Iraqi > videotape reveals that an Apache Longbow helicopter, one of the most > heavily armed and technologically advanced weapons in the U.S. > arsenal, has been taken out by a group of villagers and farmers armed > with rifles. > It wasn't rifles, but rocket propelled grenades that took down the helicopter. Facticity, please, not screed. 48251 59 10_Re: screed14_Holtzer Family20_carmdave@urim.org.il31_Sat, 29 Mar 2003 20:35:07 +0200279_iso-8859-1 I wouldn't exactly use the word "screed" for the "stuff" that Phil has posted on Habonet. Maybe next we'll see the Protocols of the Elders of Zion? And after that "proof" that the holocaust never happened, and that the Jews were really behind Pearl Harbor?

Dave 48311 30 32_No Matter What you Think of Bush6_meyers23_meyers@netvision.net.il31_Sat, 29 Mar 2003 19:48:57 +0200370_us-ascii Chevre, I find the ongoing discussion about the war in Iraq rather puzzling in one respect. There seem to be a great many people who think that Bush is a disgrace and initiated an unneccesary war. I myself am not sure. But there is one thing about which I am sure: if he doesn't win that war and depose Sadam, we in Israel will suffer severe consequences. [...] 48342 23 10_Re: screed0_17_Mctracker@aol.com31_Sat, 29 Mar 2003 14:15:21 -0500337_iso-8859-1 hay Dave... it's debi roemer.. remember me? a studentit there on urim...workshop 41 on cabri... of course you remember me... this habonet thing is new to me and isaw your name and wanted to know how the hell you're doing? who's still on urim? are ira and nancy still there? betsy and craig? please send everyone my love. [...] 48366 22 0_0_17_Mctracker@aol.com31_Sat, 29 Mar 2003 14:17:09 -0500700_iso-8859-1 I apologize everyone for that last message that was accidentally sent to everyone!!!!!!!!!!!!!

deb roemer

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/

* * FREE JEWISH LEARNING * * Shamash invites you to join MyJewishLearning.com, a comprehensive, objective, authoritative and interactive learning resource in all areas of Judaism. Free membership via http://www.myjewishlearning.com/shamash ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 48389 44 30_Re: If I Forget Thee Jerusalem0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Sat, 29 Mar 2003 14:27:13 EST469_US-ASCII Dear Amnon,

Forgive me dear brother, poet and mentor gadol; it is my recollection that we fought and died by the thousands and hundreds of thousands to defend our Temple and our land, and our belief in God. When in our land we died in the process of killing others who sought to conquer and subjugate us. Not until we were sent out among all the peoples did we learn to die as a symbol of virtue, using our deaths as evidence of our belief in God. [...] 48434 92 19_Re: A House Divided0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Sat, 29 Mar 2003 15:18:41 EST597_US-ASCII Hey, Y'all,

I read everybody's posting. Surprise! I don't agree with much of it. (Or better said, there is much of it I disagree with.)

The vast majority of our military is composed of young men and women who are prepared to sacrifice their lives at the direction of their government. We are all overwhelmingly indebted to their willingness to do this. Indebtedness, however, is only enough to damn them with faint praise. We are obligated to see that they are not called upon to make such sacrifice for reasons which demean their honor or our country's. When they are [...] 48527 61 22_RE: The power of words13_richard smith19_rdsmith1957@msn.com31_Sat, 29 Mar 2003 20:13:39 -0500216_iso-8859-1 One more word on this subject and then I'll put it to bed.

I went to the Border's Bookstore in Towson MD today to see the great Ricky Scaggs and his band perform for free and then walked myself down 48589 168 0_15_Leo Diesendruck18_leodie@isdn.net.il31_Sun, 30 Mar 2003 07:01:20 +0200580_us-ascii 1. There are some interesting comments about the Iraq situation on the website www.ariga.com . This is maintained by the author and commentator Robert Rosenberg. He is an ex-American - his family comes from Boston and his late father was professor of mechanical engineering at Tel Aviv University.

2. Has anyone succeeded in contributing to the Habonim Foundation through iGive? I subscribed a while ago for purchases from AMAZON. I made a big purchase a week ago and nothing has shown up yet. The iGive directions are very confusing. [...] 48758 243 30_Perhaps You Can Help With This0_13_SC523@aol.com29_Sun, 30 Mar 2003 04:50:05 EST513_UTF-8 Dear Friends,

Our daughter Orli (Workshop 47, former Merakezet Galil) is working on an environmental campaign that was moving along quite successfully until the war began. Now, with the war fast and furious, it's extremely difficult to get people to take a few minutes out to think about anything except the headlines (understandably so), but Orli's campaign has made it very easy and simple to go to one site and send a quick email that will register immediately with both targetted companies. [...] 49002 56 8_the hoax5_fromm18_fromm@inter.net.il31_Sun, 30 Mar 2003 14:54:21 +0200238_windows-1255 to Phil Safier . In your twisted mind you forgot to add that it was really the Jews who were behind the bombing of the twin towers, the prove being that the Jews didn't come to work that day! I think that you are really sick! 49059 94 14_After Baghdad?13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il31_Sun, 30 Mar 2003 20:34:14 +0200609_windows-1255 To (gingerly) pick up on Phil's thread, I thought that some of you might find this article (first published in Esquire, of all places) by a professor at the Navy War College interesting. This guy regularly briefs the White House, the Pentagon and other heavies on geopolitical issues, and he lays out an overall world view on what he perceives as long term threats to American and western security. Basically, this excruciatingly logical presentation boils down to just a few observations: globalization is good; and of the roughly 6 billion people on the planet, some 4 billion are more or [...] 49154 57 28_Re: Motz'ei Shabbat Concert!12_Doug Greener25_ddwgreen@netvision.net.il31_Sun, 30 Mar 2003 19:12:49 +0200551_iso-8859-1 Hi Sue, I'm not sure how you got the email announcement I sent out - I deliberately didn't send it to anyone overseas.... Anyway, it was fun. Small turn-out - there really is so much competing culture in Jerusalem - same night had a semi-amateur performance of the Mikado! All the choirs I know have been having a ball with pieces by Salomone Rossi - Jewish 16th century, wrote settings for Psalms and prayers. If we would have known about him, we would have done them at camp - better than the Bach chorales. Hope all is well. I like [...] 49212 159 76_FW: Bulgaria and the Jews... a true story absolutely wonderful!! love, naomi11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Sun, 30 Mar 2003 23:29:34 -0800427_iso-8859-1 Some brightness in the midst of dark.

Steve

-----Original Message----- From: marcia plager [mailto:mplager@socal.rr.com] Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2003 8:03 PM To: Avravraham and Malka Czyzyk; Eileen Kelmanson; Bob and Barbara Fruitman; Israel and Marlene Zakai; Barry Szemere; Carol Nalin; Geoff and Linda Remes Subject: Fw: Bulgaria and the Jews... a true story absolutely wonderful!! love, naomi [...] 49372 52 69_Re: If I Forget Thee Jerusalem -- and other things Jews must remember15_Lorraine Kotler20_lorraine@infinet.com31_Mon, 31 Mar 2003 03:14:17 -0500558_us-ascii Sue,

I agree with you wholeheartedly!!

I just saw The Pianist, a great film, and a reminder that the Holocaust occurred less than 60 years ago. Those of you who feel pity for the poor Palestinians, but none for the Jews struggling to keep a homeland for the Jews must have a severe case of historical amnesia! One third of the Jewish people were destroyed just for being Jews. Most of us were touched by this loss. My mother's father was born in Hungary. Like most of the Jews, who lived in that land before the Magyars, he was a [...] 49425 80 18_Re: After Baghdad?12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Mon, 31 Mar 2003 16:12:29 +0200648_us-ascii Jon: Wow! Thanks for being on board Habonet (our sometimes wallowing boat.) You bring us unsuspected perspectives and no *nechamot kallot.* Don't trim the sails.



Amnon To (gingerly) pick up on Phil's thread, I thought that some of you might find this article (first published in Esquire, of all places) by a professor at the Navy War College interesting. This guy regularly briefs the White House, the Pentagon and other heavies on geopolitical issues, and he lays out an overall world view on what he perceives as long term threats to American and western security. Basically, this excruciatingly logical presentation [...] 49506 1721 18_Ha'aretz - Article16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Mon, 31 Mar 2003 09:34:35 -0500345_us-ascii This article comes from the March 30th web edition of the Israeli newspaper HaAretz. Its author, Joseph Dan, is a Professor of Kabbalah at the Hebew University of Jerusalem and a winner of the Israel Prize.

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=278242&contrassID=2&subContrassID=4&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y 51228 161 20_Re: Holtzer's letter8_molieric25_molieric@netvision.net.il31_Mon, 31 Mar 2003 18:22:04 +0200382_windows-1255 Dear Moshe,

Maybe I am not the best informed person in the world, but, where did you get the idea that Israel supports Iraq? The Israeli government has been urging President Bush to get into this war from Day One.

Mollie Marx ----- Original Message ----- From: moshe sheskin To: habonet Sent: Friday, March 28, 2003 9:48 PM Subject: Holtzer's letter [...] 51390 164 20_Re: Holtzer's letter8_molieric25_molieric@netvision.net.il31_Mon, 31 Mar 2003 18:27:35 +0200676_windows-1255 Dear Moshe,

After re-reading your letter, I realized that I misread "Israelis" for "Israel", which puts the letter in a more correct context.

My apologies,

Mollie Marx ----- Original Message ----- From: moshe sheskin To: habonet Sent: Friday, March 28, 2003 9:48 PM Subject: Holtzer's letter



Re Dave Holtzer's letter



Dave, Your letter re your supporting the war against Iraq and the tyrannical Saddam, was a welcome relief from what I have been receiving lately. Rest assured that there are many of us Haboneters that agree with you. I just don't understand how Israelis can support a regime like Saddam's. [...] 51555 257 37_Re: recording gifts through igive.com27_The Habonim Dror Foundation26_foundation@habonimdror.org31_Mon, 31 Mar 2003 16:26:11 -0500608_iso-8859-1 Leo et al.,

I've asked the igive.com staff about making sure that purchases are recorded. It turns out that for Amazon and a couple of others you have to fill out a form to make sure that your transactions are recorded. This is what they told me:

************************************************** It takes up to 30 days (the average is 10) after they've shipped for purchases to get posted to your account. So long as you started out by using a link in our newsletter, the shopping window, or linking directly from our site to go directly to a merchant, the transaction should [...] 51813 83 10_Mel Gibson16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Mon, 31 Mar 2003 17:02:20 -0500349_iso-8859-1 For those of you concerned about the New York Times' recent report about actor Mel Gibson's fundamentalist Catholicism, his father's alleged anti-Semitism and the nature of the film The Passion, which he's now producing. This blurb came from the Jewish Council for Public Affairs (formerly NJCRAC.) Hopefully the report is accurate. [...] 51897 432 30_Dissent Magazine - Spring 200316_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Mon, 31 Mar 2003 19:32:29 -0500