1 SHAMASH.ORG /usr/www/wwwhc/listserv/archives/habonet January 2003 2 49 12_Re: ha aretz0_18_DLerner569@aol.com28_Wed, 1 Jan 2003 01:03:13 EST660_US-ASCII In my humble opinion this is horse poopie.

Few in Israel would choose to treat the Palestinians as they are being treated in the territories. However, the incontrovertible fact remains that the Palestinian leadership and terrorist factions continue to threaten Israel with destruction and attacks on civilians. Until the Palestinian people change their leadership and crush those who would crush Israel, they cannot be treated as innocent bystanders. Israel is justified in taking far more stringent action than it has while the threat continues. The option of a Palestinian State does not coexist with a continuing threat to the security [...] 52 20 12_Re: ha aretz0_18_DLerner569@aol.com28_Wed, 1 Jan 2003 01:04:35 EST532_US-ASCII Its fine with me. Let them suffer in Jordan. Dennis

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/

MyJewishLearning.com, The Personal Gateway to Jewish Exploration Officially launches: http://MyJewishLearning.com/index.htm?source=shamash ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 73 51 12_Re: ha aretz0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com28_Wed, 1 Jan 2003 01:14:02 EST578_US-ASCII In a message dated 1/1/03 1:03:48 AM Eastern Standard Time, DLerner569@aol.com writes:



> It hasn't worked, so I say lose by expulsion if you don't > sue for peace and expel the terrorists by January 31, 2003, -- or sooner. >

If you really think this is a viable solution you are seriously deceiving yourself. In the first place if you think the United States, let alone the rest of the world, will allow Israel to ethnically cleanse the West Bank and Gaza I think you are mistaken. Second, even if Israel could get away with it, if you think [...] 125 42 18_Expel the Bastards0_18_DLerner569@aol.com28_Wed, 1 Jan 2003 01:23:54 EST562_US-ASCII Dear Chaverim, I ask you to recall that I devoted several posting in 2002 to seeking a reconciliation of the sons of Abraham. I still favor such a cathartic step. However, it continues to be just plain foolish to a) discuss providing a state for people who allow, and support, and encourage members of their communities to attack our citizens. It is just unthinkably stupid. Its like standing in front of the convenience store when the guy comes out shooting and inviting him home to stay with the wife and kids - with the idea that he won't do it [...] 168 54 47_Re: To Pearl and Noam and the rest of the gang.7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Wed, 01 Jan 2003 08:48:03 +0200545_iso-8859-1 the key word is "wrong." Killing by accident or unintentionally is a tragic accident, unintentional, a misfortunate, often unavoidable happening in war time. A "wrong" is something intentional. At least that is my understanding. And that is where I see attempt at equivalence. If I am mistaken in my interpretation, I am sorry. pearl ----- Original Message ----- From: Noam Stopak To: Sent: Wednesday, January 01, 2003 2:26 AM Subject: Re: To Pearl and Noam and the rest of the gang. [...] 223 109 22_Re: Expel the Bastards7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Wed, 01 Jan 2003 13:18:34 +0200583_iso-8859-1 Dennis, s'beng v'gamarnu? An Arab from Shuafat once said to me: "It's your (Israel's) fault there is an Intifada: you should have done what Hussein did and you would have been finished with it in a day." But, we don't have the stomach for it, thank God.

More and more people are coming around to your thinking: that Jordan should be encouraged to become the Palestinian state, since already almost 78% of its population claims to be Palestinian. 250,000 Arabs have left Israel and moved to Jordan and other countries in the last 2 years. That is why Jordan is [...] 333 137 10_Disturbing15_Leo Diesendruck18_leodie@isdn.net.il30_Wed, 1 Jan 2003 13:47:10 +0200395_us-ascii Of course I did not mean to imply that experience was indicative of how the majority of Germans feel about the Nazi period today - or even typical of a minority. It should also be noted that the incident took place in Munich, one of the most pro-Nazi towns in the past. Nevertheless, it is a datum that should be taken into account when evaluating the mood of present day Germany. [...] 471 93 20_Pearl (was Re: noam)11_Noam Stopak20_nstopak@orionsci.com31_Wed, 01 Jan 2003 11:04:39 -0500463_us-ascii Skolnik wrote:

> noam, > > I never said that it is okay to kill anyone and you know it, which makes > your writing what you did even worse.

You wrote "Yes, we still feel pain for Arab innocents, but how are we supposed to know who exactly is innocent?" in a context which seemed to me an attempt to justify the killing of innocents - essentially "we don't know who is innocent so it is ok when we kill them." Have I misunderstood you? [...] 565 63 47_Re: To Pearl and Noam and the rest of the gang.11_Noam Stopak20_nstopak@orionsci.com31_Wed, 01 Jan 2003 11:05:15 -0500628_us-ascii Rather than picking single words, I suggest you look at the entire sentence. To me, a sentence that contains the phrase "I don't equate these actions" is clearly not attempting to establish equivalence.

At least that is my understanding.

Skolnik wrote:

> the key word is "wrong." Killing by accident or unintentionally is a tragic > accident, unintentional, a misfortunate, often unavoidable happening in war > time. A "wrong" is something intentional. At least that is my > understanding. And that is where I see attempt at equivalence. If I am > mistaken in my interpretation, I am sorry. > [...] 629 34 27_The death of Robert Maxwell11_Jack Porter23_jacknusan@earthlink.net31_Wed, 01 Jan 2003 12:57:20 -0800613_US-ASCII Delloo Chevreh!

I have a question. I've just finished reading a disturbing book called "Robert Maxwell: Israel's Superspy" by Gordon Thomas and Martin Dillon (ISBN: 0-7867-1078-0) where it states that Maxwell, a tycoon with close ties to the Israeli government was a "mole", a supersecret spy for Israel but then his empire began to crumble in the late 80s and he mysteriously died (suicide, murder, accident) on his yacht near Spain. he was given a hero's burial in Jerusalem by Shamir. But the book states that Maxwell tried to blackmail Israeli banks to give him 200 million Br. pounds or [...] 664 18 0_12_Yarosla, Zev24_ZYarosla@bos.co.la.ca.us30_Wed, 1 Jan 2003 10:09:17 -0800563_iso-8859-1 Can someone tell me what the procedure is to unsubscribe to Habonet for 10 days?

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MyJewishLearning.com, The Personal Gateway to Jewish Exploration Officially launches: http://MyJewishLearning.com/index.htm?source=shamash ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 683 66 12_What a waste0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com28_Wed, 1 Jan 2003 13:14:38 EST606_US-ASCII Read what Pearl says below and then take into consideration that we are still plowing our money into settlements.

Sam Flesher



In a message dated 1/1/03 6:43:02 AM Eastern Standard Time, skolnik@netvision.net.il writes:

> > Our economy is collapsing, some 250,000 people are out of work and can't > find jobs (multiply that number by children and spouses in family and it is > mindboggling), prices are rising, we are warned that a major bank might > collapse and rumours are flying which one it is (hope it is not true), more > and more people are eating in soup [...] 750 468 7_Maxwell13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il30_Wed, 1 Jan 2003 20:47:56 +0200494_windows-1255 I found this story about Robert Maxwell from a derelict web site; I have no idea how accurate it is. What I do remember about Robert Maxwell is that he was going to save the professional soccer scene in Jerusalem by buying the two National League teams - Beitar and Hapoel - and merge them to form a "Jerusalem United" team. It didn't work out, mostly because any self-respecting Beitar Yerushalayim fan would join Al-Fatah before agreeing to merge with the "reds" of Hapoel. [...] 1219 57 21_Re: the liar answers.0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com28_Wed, 1 Jan 2003 15:18:24 EST375_US-ASCII Well Noam seems to have a way of turning a phrase does he not.....

Happy New Year

Sam



In a message dated 12/31/02 7:27:55 PM Eastern Standard Time, nstopak@orionsci.com writes:

> > > I don't get it. Do you believe that Shin Bet killed him or not? Continued > inuendo on this subject implies to me that believe that this is true. > 1277 48 21_Re: the liar answers.0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com28_Wed, 1 Jan 2003 15:50:28 EST533_US-ASCII In a message dated 1/1/03 3:19:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, Smfgrappa@aol.com writes:



> I don't get it. Do you believe that Shin Bet killed him or not? Continued > inuendo on this subject implies to me that believe that this is true. >

I don't really understand. If this is true, that Shin Bet killed the elected head of a democratic nation, then wouldn't that put Israel in the Third World category? Why should America and Americans and American Jews support a country where such a thing would happen? 1326 326 22_A piece by David Mamet11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org30_Wed, 1 Jan 2003 17:40:58 -0600642_ISO-8859-1

***************************************** Rabbi Sidney Schwarz, Founder/President PANIM: The Institute for Jewish Leadership and Values 6101 Montrose Road, Suite 200 Rockville, MD 20852 Phone: 301-770-5070, ext. 215 Fax: 301-770-6365 Please visit our website at http://www.panim.org

INTEGRATING JEWISH LEARNING, VALUES AND SOCIAL RESPONSIBILITY





'If I Forget Thee, Jerusalem': The Power of Blunt Nostalgia



David Mamet, the Pulitzer Prize-winning playwright, visited Israel recently as a guest of the Jerusalem Film Festival. His experience gave rise to the following essay. [...] 1653 34 32_Re: stopping Habonet temporarily0_18_Brianscoop@aol.com31_Wed, 01 Jan 2003 20:13:16 -0500399_iso-8859-1 Zev,

To suspend your Habonet subscription temporarily, send an email to listproc@shamash.org (NOT to habonet@shamsh.org), with the message:

set habonet mail postpone

Then when you want to start it up again, send another email to the same address with the message:

set habonet mail ack

or if you get the daily digest:

set habonet mail digest [...] 1688 23 6_KOOGLE11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org30_Wed, 1 Jan 2003 20:29:23 -0600609_us-ascii For those of you in need of ANOTHER search engine..

This is a Jewish search Engine.

http://www.koogle.net/



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MyJewishLearning.com, The Personal Gateway to Jewish Exploration Officially launches: http://MyJewishLearning.com/index.htm?source=shamash ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 1712 31 12_Re: ha aretz0_18_DLerner569@aol.com28_Wed, 1 Jan 2003 22:28:16 EST579_US-ASCII Richard, I'm sure there are many factors that I am overlooking, but it seems to me a lot more justified than Bush's threats against Iraq. As a parent I learned long ago that it is better to give children choices (no secret meaning to the analogy to children - Noam) even if the choices are between things they don't want. We give the Palestinians a choice between real peace and taking their problem elsewhere. The world would no doubt scream like wounded pigs, but hell they are already doing that without justification, and we aren't getting anything we want. As [...] 1744 89 26_Palestinian's state redux?16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Thu, 02 Jan 2003 10:24:29 -0500606_us-ascii Once again, Habonet's participants are stirring up the strurm und drang: whither (or wither; sic.) the Palestininans? So let's try to get a few basic factoids on the record. l) The Oslo accords were intended to facilitate a divorce of Israel from the Palestinians. The divorce court of Scandinavians, US, etc. was necessary because, as Neil Sedaka so presciently and musically observed as far back as 1960 or thereabouts, "Breaking up is hard to do." 2) Israel stumbled upon the territories (West Bank & Gaza) in 1967 as the successful outcome of a defensive war forced upon it by aggressive [...] 1834 63 30_Re: Palestinian's state redux?0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com28_Thu, 2 Jan 2003 10:32:45 EST306_US-ASCII

I would like to second Elihu's comments here. I would like to know where other people stand. I have said this in the past. This is not rocket science. If we cannot take a stand on this one simple point as movement graduates, I will be very dissapointed.

Sam Flesher Pittsburgh [...] 1898 51 30_Re: Palestinian's state redux?0_14_LHIAM1@aol.com28_Thu, 2 Jan 2003 10:48:34 EST325_US-ASCII Sam et. al. Please consider this a second for Elihu's comments and a hearty voice for considering the dismantling of the settlements as the first step in elimination of the occupation and the healing of the Jewish State which needs some penicillin on many fronts. Though the patient is sick I love her no less. [...] 1950 74 67_Breaking News: Hallmark Execs rounded up by Feds on treason charges0_14_HESHIG@aol.com28_Thu, 2 Jan 2003 11:21:06 EST427_US-ASCII Hallmark Execs rounded up by Feds on treason charges

By SID FRIGAND of TheColumnists.com

Washington, DC, Dec. 10 - Federal agents arrested at least 15 top executives of Hallmark, Inc. yesterday at the company's Crown Center headquarters in Kansas City, Missouri, and seized more than eleven tons of materials-mostly holiday greeting cards -which were deemed treasonous by the Department of Justice. [...] 2025 136 24_settlers and settlements11_Don Goelman25_don.goelman@villanova.edu31_Thu, 02 Jan 2003 11:27:54 -0500591_us-ascii Yikes - taking a stand on a single point sounds good, Sam. But in some ways I might find rocket science easier. If "settlement" means any territory won in 1967 (over the Green Line), there are some places I would find harder than others to turn over to the Pals (besides, as many have expressed here with far greater eloquence, what is the legal difference between territory won in 1967 and territory won in 1948?). Aren't there big differences in terms of historical attachment and of viability? Leaving some forsaken hilltop in Samaria sounds to me like common sense; Hevron [...] 2162 97 28_Re: settlers and settlements0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com28_Thu, 2 Jan 2003 12:39:44 EST546_US-ASCII In a message dated 1/2/03 11:30:00 AM Eastern Standard Time, don.goelman@villanova.edu writes:

> > Yikes - taking a stand on a single point sounds good, Sam. But in some ways > I might find rocket science easier. If "settlement" means any territory won > in 1967 (over the Green Line), there are some places I would find harder > than others to turn over to the Pals (besides, as many have expressed here > with far greater eloquence, what is the legal difference between territory > won in 1967 and territory won in 1948?). [...] 2260 145 30_Re: Palestinian's state redux?0_18_DLerner569@aol.com28_Thu, 2 Jan 2003 13:02:26 EST559_US-ASCII Dear Eli,

I enjoyed your posting and its straight forward summary of how we got here. I too am a pragmatist. I see the issues of this duman vs that dunam be to issues of emotion that threaten (from both sides) to stand in the way of mutual survival. I am no ideologue on the settlements. I think there is no acceptable way to account for the individual feelings of the settlers or the adjacent Palestinians in any resolution of the matter, so I favor a policy and action based on larger principles, adjusted to make sure that everyone is [...] 2406 48 28_Re: settlers and settlements0_18_DLerner569@aol.com28_Thu, 2 Jan 2003 13:22:06 EST666_US-ASCII Dearest Sam,

Please accept my genuine wishes and those of Mary for a most happy, healthy and peaceful New Year.

Now, about the settlements. I fear that you are crossing personal political feelings with national strategy. Specifically, I don't see the national rationale for eliminating settlements not based on their strategic location, or per diem cost to defend, but on the politics and nationalism (religious fanaticism, or what have you) of their founders and residents. One might conclude that we should eliminate settlements based on Sam's political criteria as applied to individual settlements. Even if that were the criteria, it [...] 2455 31 28_A Secualr New Year's request0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com28_Thu, 2 Jan 2003 14:43:11 EST589_US-ASCII Firstly- Happy 2003 to everyone! Secondly, I am "begging" again to see if anyone in the NY-NJ-CT area would be willing to help with the screening of Exodus now moved to late March, for the American Veterans for Israel (AVI) in cooperation with the Center for Jewish History at the Jewish Museum in downtown Manhattan. As I stated before, many of our bogrei-tnuah were active during ALiyah Bet- and one of our chevre from San Francisco, was killed by the British on the actual Exodus- Bill Bernstein, z"l. Naomi Kantey from New Jersey is the chairperson- and Naomi- a Habonim [...] 2487 361 24_Re: Well-educated idiots13_Kathee Lavine26_holycowfoods@earthlink.net31_Thu, 02 Jan 2003 12:09:30 -0800326_us-ascii FYI The outgoing President Joel Beinan, mentioned in the article, is not only Jewish, but he has family that lives in Israel and among them are Kibbutzniks from Hashomer Ha' tza' ir! I heard him speak at University of Oregon and I was shaking in my shoes.



At 07:06 PM 12/28/2002 +0200, you wrote: [...] 2849 32 30_Re: Palestinian's state redux?0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com28_Thu, 2 Jan 2003 15:47:46 EST129_US-ASCII Seldom have I read a more coherent, logical and convincing argument made on Habonet that was not written by Judy Gelman. 2882 47 30_Re: Palestinian's state redux?0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com28_Thu, 2 Jan 2003 16:32:20 EST276_US-ASCII In a message dated 1/2/03 4:03:54 PM Eastern Standard Time, Richardrdsmith@aol.com writes:



> Seldom have I read a more coherent, logical and convincing argument made on >

This refers to the post by Elihu D. Davison. (Thanks Noam)



2930 35 30_Re: Palestinian's state redux?13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Thu, 02 Jan 2003 17:13:59 -0500 2966 371 11_Re: Maxwell11_Jack Porter23_jacknusan@earthlink.net31_Thu, 02 Jan 2003 17:13:26 -0800561_US-ASCII on 1/1/03 10:47 AM, Jonathan Baum at jonbaum@sasa.org.il wrote:

I found this story about Robert Maxwell from a derelict web site; I have no idea how accurate it is. What I do remember about Robert Maxwell is that he was going to save the professional soccer scene in Jerusalem by buying the two National League teams - Beitar and Hapoel - and merge them to form a "Jerusalem United" team. It didn't work out, mostly because any self-respecting Beitar Yerushalayim fan would join Al-Fatah before agreeing to merge with the "reds" of Hapoel. [...] 3338 19 30_Re: Palestinian's state redux?0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com28_Thu, 2 Jan 2003 17:37:17 EST530_US-ASCII More like the Nobel prize!...Happy NY to you! sue

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/

MyJewishLearning.com, The Personal Gateway to Jewish Exploration Officially launches: http://MyJewishLearning.com/index.htm?source=shamash ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 3358 73 28_RE: settlers and settlements0_24_purpleroot8@netscape.net31_Thu, 02 Jan 2003 18:17:14 -0500574_iso-8859-1 Regarding 1947-48, there's a lot of evidence, Don, that practically the entire Zionist leadership in the diaspora and the yishuv, opposed a Palestinian state and would have established Israel on the entire area of Palestine, if possible. The exceptions were Mapam and Hashomer Hatzair. The post Six Day War occupation has a much in common with pre-State Zionist movement politics (again, minus Hashomer Hatzair, and to an extent, Achdut Haavoda). The fact that the Land of Israel movement could be organized so quickly after the Six Day War was no accident. [...] 3432 54 16_help with lyrics0_14_Gezer2@aol.com28_Thu, 2 Jan 2003 18:36:01 EST348_US-ASCII Can anyone out there help with supplying the correct lyrics to the song that goes something like this:

Hayamin holfim, shana overet..... aval hamangina , aval hamangina...leolam nesheret

Also, does anyone know who the song is by? Aliyah-Ronnie, Hilda-can anyone help??



Thank you, Sharon Bershtel gezer2@aol.com 3487 394 11_Re: Maxwell11_Jack Porter23_jacknusan@earthlink.net31_Thu, 02 Jan 2003 20:45:36 -0800622_US-ASCII on 1/2/03 5:13 PM, Jack Porter at jacknusan@earthlink.net wrote:

on 1/1/03 10:47 AM, Jonathan Baum at jonbaum@sasa.org.il wrote:

I found this story about Robert Maxwell from a derelict web site; I have no idea how accurate it is. What I do remember about Robert Maxwell is that he was going to save the professional soccer scene in Jerusalem by buying the two National League teams - Beitar and Hapoel - and merge them to form a "Jerusalem United" team. It didn't work out, mostly because any self-respecting Beitar Yerushalayim fan would join Al-Fatah before agreeing to merge with the "reds" [...] 3882 58 20_Re: help with lyrics19_Orit Lowy Chicherio16_oritil@yahoo.com36_Thu, 2 Jan 2003 19:06:25 -0800 (PST)425_us-ascii

I learned it something like this: Hayamim holchim, shana overet (2). Aval hamakela, aval hamangina, aval hachevrea, tamid nisheret. Orit (Mosh '67-'71, MB '72, Workshop 23)



Gezer2@aol.com wrote:Can anyone out there help with supplying the correct lyrics to the song that goes something like this:

Hayamin holfim, shana overet..... aval hamangina , aval hamangina...leolam nesheret [...] 3941 23 20_Re: help with lyrics0_16_SMG54321@aol.com28_Thu, 2 Jan 2003 22:28:18 EST526_US-ASCII You have the correct version. Hayamim Holfim Shana Overet (x2) Aval Hamangina(x3) Leolam Nisheret It is a round the music is by Mozart but the lyrics are unknown. The translation- The days are passing but the melody remains eternal. Hope this helps. Ilana

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 3965 53 49_one more time - shop online and contribute to HDF0_14_KBob24@aol.com28_Thu, 2 Jan 2003 23:40:37 EST297_US-ASCII Chevre:

If you ever shop on line, read on.

igive.com has a special offer going on. If you register at igive.com as an HDF supporter and shop online once in the next 45 days, $5 goes to the HDF. If think you will buy something online over the next 6 weeks, go register. [...] 4019 81 20_Re: help with lyrics7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Fri, 03 Jan 2003 08:07:44 +0200325_iso-8859-1 I remember we sang it in Mosh as ...."tamid nisheret" rather than "l'olam nisheret." the rest is also the way I remember it. We sang it as a round. shabbat shalom, pearl ----- Original Message ----- From: Gezer2@aol.com To: habonet@shamash.org Sent: Friday, January 03, 2003 1:36 AM Subject: help with lyrics [...] 4101 352 20_RE: help with lyrics11_Batel Libes25_batel_libes@earthlink.net30_Thu, 2 Jan 2003 22:15:10 -0800693_iso-8859-1 I know it as: Yayamim ovrim, shana choleft, Aval ha’mangina le’olam nesheret.

Batel

-----Original Message----- From: owner-habonet@shamash.org [mailto:owner-habonet@shamash.org]On Behalf Of Skolnik Sent: Thursday, January 02, 2003 10:08 PM To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: Re: help with lyrics

I remember we sang it in Mosh as ...."tamid nisheret" rather than "l'olam nisheret." the rest is also the way I remember it. We sang it as a round. shabbat shalom, pearl ----- Original Message ----- From: Gezer2@aol.com To: habonet@shamash.org Sent: Friday, January 03, 2003 1:36 AM Subject: help with lyrics [...] 4454 34 20_Re: help with lyrics0_13_SC523@aol.com28_Fri, 3 Jan 2003 02:31:49 EST508_US-ASCII Dear Chevreh,

Orit wrote:

Hayamim holchim, shana overet (2). Aval hamakela, aval hamangina, aval hachevrea, tamid nisheret.

I learned it at Tavor in 1961 exactly like that, but here's what I later learned: Except in Habonim, and certainly in Israel, the song is simply song with Aval Hamangina repeated 3 times. Israelis sing l'olam nisheret. I quite like the differentiation of Aval hamakhela, aval hamangina, aval hachevraya, and I like the simplicity of tamid nisheret. [...] 4489 86 21_steve hancoff on wpfw29_Richard Steacy & Esther Cohen22_richard.steacy@gte.net30_Fri, 3 Jan 2003 07:53:36 -0500373_iso-8859-1 ...so there i was, getting ready for work, listening to wpfw, and i hear that the last number played was an ellington piece, performed by steve hancoff. hey! i went to camp with that guy! (my husband figures i went to camp with just about everyone) okay, i didn't actually go to camp "with" steve - i was an amela at mosh the year of izzy the israeli ibex. [...] 4576 56 28_Re: settlers and settlements11_Don Goelman25_don.goelman@villanova.edu31_Fri, 03 Jan 2003 09:57:09 -0500529_us-ascii I didn't realize the acceptance of partition by the Yishuv (ie, B-G) was that apocryphal, Sol.

Still, I was trying to stay out of the fray concerning some Dark Side of Zionism. I was just expressing skepticism that bailing from post-67 territory would satisfy the Palestinians, who would have no objection to nor be humiliated by nor find a provocation in post-48 territory (or post-Bil"u territory, or post 2d Temple territory). [Sam: I agree about Gush Katif; I'm just not sure where the line gets drawn.] [...] 4633 37 33_jewish geography--habonim edition13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Fri, 03 Jan 2003 11:18:29 -0500570_us-ascii Dear Chevre-

So there my family (me, Steve my husband, 3 kids, my father, and Sharon my sister) is on the island of Santa Cruz, Ecuador in the Galapagos, slogging through knee deep mud in the rain to see giant tortoises when the very elegant mother of the other family assigned to our excursion group says "Oh, my children are used to getting really dirty--it reminds them of their camp." Of course we ask "what camp" and, as you have already guessed since I am posting this on Habonet, it is a habonim camp--GIlboa. The mother admits that she also [...] 4671 43 53_Re: one more time - shop online and contribute to HDF14_Holtzer Family20_carmdave@urim.org.il30_Fri, 3 Jan 2003 18:23:51 +020039_iso-8859-1 THE CHECK IS IN THE MAIL!!!! 4715 47 37_Re: jewish geography--habonim edition11_Noam Stopak20_nstopak@orionsci.com31_Fri, 03 Jan 2003 11:25:47 -0500538_us-ascii Judith Gelman wrote:

> Dear Chevre- > > So there my family (me, Steve my husband, 3 kids, my father, and Sharon > my sister) is on the island of Santa Cruz, Ecuador in the Galapagos, > slogging through knee deep mud in the rain to see giant tortoises when > the very elegant mother of the other family assigned to our excursion > group says "Oh, my children are used to getting really dirty--it reminds > them of their camp." Of course we ask "what camp" and, as you have > already guessed since I am posting this on [...] 4763 64 26_LZ Alumni solidarity trips13_Joel Winograd15_mail@jelaco.com30_Fri, 3 Jan 2003 11:03:31 -0600332_US-ASCII Hi all,

We are gearing up for the next set of LZ alumni solidarity trips to Israel in Spring 03. The trip is short, intense and very rewarding for both the participants and hosts. In addition, these trips are very inexpensive. Please take a moment to look at our web pages at: http://home.centurytel.net/joelw. [...] 4828 75 28_Re: settlers and settlements0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com28_Fri, 3 Jan 2003 12:25:37 EST473_US-ASCII Don.

> Still, I was trying to stay out of the fray concerning some Dark Side of > Zionism.

I just saw the the attack of the clones. The dark side of the force is entertainment for kids. When it comes to Zionism it is not so entertaining

I was just expressing skepticism that bailing from post-67 territory would satisfy > the Palestinians, who would have no objection to nor be humiliated by nor > find a provocation in post-48 territory [...] 4904 31 38_Synchronicity- and the habonim edition0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com28_Fri, 3 Jan 2003 13:09:49 EST605_US-ASCII Judy's story just goes to show you how incredible our youthful connections and Habonim experiences have been- and how they never stop affecting us. I stumbled into my work at Blazer communications and the "Exodus" project, and was "heart-warmed" to discover the fact that so many of our chevre were active in Aliyah Bet operations. When I began working with the American Veterans of Israel, and explained to them some of my background- I would get "Oh- she (he) is an old buddy from Habonim"--I learned about Bill Bernstein, z"l, Naomi Kantey, Weintraub the artist, z"l, and others who went [...] 4936 44 37_Re: jewish geography--habonim edition0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com28_Fri, 3 Jan 2003 15:37:51 EST217_US-ASCII In a message dated 1/3/03 11:26:34 AM Eastern Standard Time, nstopak@orionsci.com writes:



> p.s. let's hear it for Santa Cruz too - slime 'em slugs! >

Wasn't that a different Santa Cruz? 4981 29 37_Re: jewish geography--habonim edition11_Noam Stopak20_nstopak@orionsci.com31_Fri, 03 Jan 2003 15:43:24 -0500387_us-ascii Richardrdsmith@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 1/3/03 11:26:34 AM Eastern Standard Time, nstopak@orionsci.com writes: > > >> p.s. let's hear it for Santa Cruz too - slime 'em slugs! > > > Wasn't that a different Santa Cruz?

Yes, but once you've seen one holy cross, you get a warm feeling for 'em all. I feel the same way about St. Croix in the USVI. :-) [...] 5011 121 25_washington post editorial11_Noam Stopak20_nstopak@orionsci.com31_Fri, 03 Jan 2003 15:53:53 -0500349_iso-8859-1 This was the lead editorial in the Washington Post today. On the surface it seems to say some of the same things I've written in the past. Those who seem to believe that I spend my waking hours giving aid and comfort to terrorists and working to destroy Israel may be interested to read the letter I wrote to the editor in response. [...] 5133 19 29_Re: washington post editorial12_David Fleiss20_dfleiss@pipeline.com31_Fri, 03 Jan 2003 16:30:06 -0500420_- On the subject of letters to the Washington Post, was the recent letter from S* Gelman (sorry, the first name escapes me) from Judy's daughter?

David

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 5153 31 38_Re: washington post editorial- To Noam0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com28_Fri, 3 Jan 2003 16:42:30 EST543_US-ASCII Kol HaKavod for your reply to this article. While there may be some truth, again, the article seems very slanted. I don't have a clue about how to stop this wretched ping-pong game. I can't for the life of me understand why no one from either side has had the leadership capabilities to end this no-win situation in some way. The deaths and killings go on and on and it seems as if even the great American Buddahs have given up. Why not learn from history. Perhaps all of the women in the Middle East should pick up lessons from [...] 5185 67 18_A powerful website11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org30_Fri, 3 Jan 2003 20:45:30 -0600536_us-ascii ------ Forwarded Message From: Marshall Dermer Reply-To: dermer@uwm.edu Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 19:58:23 -0600 (CST) To: dermer@uwm.edu (Marshall Dermer) Cc: dermer@uwm.edu (Marshall Dermer) Subject: A Powerful Website



A few moments ago, I received a message from a Telechan listserver. Telechan is the shtetl in which my mother was born. The message directed me to a new, powerful, site devoted to documenting the lives of the Jewish people who lived in Central Europe. Here is the URL: [...] 5253 51 37_Re: jewish geography--habonim edition0_14_Ohanka@aol.com28_Fri, 3 Jan 2003 22:03:12 EST593_US-ASCII

In a message dated 1/3/03 11:18:45 AM, gelman@erols.com writes:

<< Dear Chevre-

So there my family (me, Steve my husband, 3 kids, my father, and Sharon my sister) is on the island of Santa Cruz, Ecuador in the Galapagos, slogging through knee deep mud in the rain to see giant tortoises when the very elegant mother of the other family assigned to our excursion group says "Oh, my children are used to getting really dirty--it reminds them of their camp." Of course we ask "what camp" and, as you have already guessed since I am posting this on Habonet, it [...] 5305 49 37_Re: jewish geography--habonim edition9_Norm Kane19_normk@earthlink.net31_Fri, 03 Jan 2003 19:24:30 -0800554_us-ascii Judy,

Great story, but there's hardly any mud at Gilboa ... very little water. They have to keep reminded the kids to drink so that they don't dehydrate.

We do have a lot of dirt and dust which make up for it.

Norm Kane

Judith Gelman wrote:

> Dear Chevre- > > So there my family (me, Steve my husband, 3 kids, my father, and Sharon > my sister) is on the island of Santa Cruz, Ecuador in the Galapagos, > slogging through knee deep mud in the rain to see giant tortoises when > the very elegant mother of [...] 5355 37 45_Re: jewish geography--habonim edition-to Hank0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com28_Fri, 3 Jan 2003 22:23:58 EST469_US-ASCII And so it goes- I was at an Exodus screening this summer at a synagogue in the Valley when the JNF Shaliach and I got into a conversation and I had told him that an old chanicha was coming to work the Aliyah Desk and he said, "Oh- You mean Batya Dashefsky?"--- He (Rami Ganor) has been a friend of Batya's for many years--I now spend Sundays every other month with her going to LA Symphony concerts! She told me about seeing you "down under"-- again- WOW.susie 5393 39 27_Habonim-Dror member in jail11_Jack Porter23_jacknusan@earthlink.net31_Fri, 03 Jan 2003 22:43:49 -0800583_US-ASCII Dear chevreh:

While persuing my interest in Robert Maxwell, I came across a story in the UK Jewish Chronicle that may interest you all:

A former Habonim-Dror member, Anton Marks, 28, from Kibbutz Beit Ha-Emek, has been inprisoned by the Israeli Army for refusing to serve on the West Bank, calling the settlements a "stain on the moral integrity of the State of Israel". Marks is a chaver from Manchester, England and has the full support of his kvutza and his kibbutz. He has been in Atlt, near Haifa, since Dec. 26 and will be in prison until Jan. 4th. [...] 5433 46 37_Re: jewish geography--habonim edition0_14_KBob24@aol.com28_Fri, 3 Jan 2003 23:03:52 EST283_US-ASCII Judy:

Thanks for the story - I printed it out and read it at our Shabbat dinner table. Being the Bob family, we then had to have a long discussion about which machaneh has the most mud. I agree with Norm; it is unlikely to be Gilboa.

Shabbat Shalom,

Ken 5480 75 37_Re: jewish geography--habonim edition13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Sat, 04 Jan 2003 00:33:18 -0500596_us-ascii Dear Norm,

She didn't claim mud--just dirt. Her kids' enthusiasm for wallowing in the dirt (wet or dry) was the spark for the Habonim connection.

Actually, the Gilboa kids made my little one quite envious with stories about how they aren't "ever" allowed to shower due to the water shortage. Mosh has had a water shortage too and the veterans traded war stories on this very theme--you would think that one machaneh was located in the Sahara and the other in the Gobi had you heard them. All the boys under puberty agreed that showering is totally "bizbooz", which is [...] 5556 94 37_RE: jewish geography--habonim edition11_Batel Libes25_batel_libes@earthlink.net30_Fri, 3 Jan 2003 21:50:10 -0800449_US-ASCII OK, so I read this to my daughter, a Gilboa die-hard since '99 who says the following: "We had to walk back on tiyul (in '01) ALL THE WAY from Tehachapi on the dirt road, ALL THE WAY back to machane, AND THEN, we couldn't shower for a day." And this year there hardly was any water shortage. Now instead of mud fights, we have Jello fights, no particular flavor, they all work. Miya, Gilboa, '99 - '04, MBI 05, Madatz, '06, and so on. [...] 5651 51 31_Re: Habonim-Dror member in jail0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com28_Sat, 4 Jan 2003 11:46:16 EST361_US-ASCII In a message dated 1/3/03 10:51:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, jacknusan@earthlink.net writes:

> A former Habonim-Dror member, Anton Marks, 28, from Kibbutz Beit > Ha-Emek, has been inprisoned by the Israeli Army for refusing to serve on > the West Bank, calling the settlements a "stain on the moral integrity of > the State of Israel". > > [...] 5703 39 90_Rainbow Grocery followup: Statement from the Board of Directors Regarding Israeli Products11_Batel Libes25_batel_libes@earthlink.net30_Sat, 4 Jan 2003 12:39:57 -0800622_iso-8859-1 Hi, This was on Rainbow's website:

Statement from the Board of Directors Regarding Israeli Products December 20, 2002 Rainbow Grocery Cooperative, Inc. does not have a boycott on products from Israel. When it was discovered that two departments had a ban which did not meet our cooperative's policy for a boycott to occur, the Board of Directors voted to make the decision of these departments null and void. We apologize for the lack of oversight in allowing our internal processes to break down. We regret any distress or suffering caused by these actions to the Bay Area community. Products that [...] 5743 45 94_Re: Rainbow Grocery followup: Statement from the Board of Directors Regarding Israeli Products13_Kathee Lavine26_holycowfoods@earthlink.net31_Sat, 04 Jan 2003 19:20:55 -0800616_us-ascii I wonder if you have an email address for Rainbow, perhaps some letters of support would be in order?



At 12:39 PM 1/4/2003 -0800, you wrote: >Hi, >This was on Rainbow's website: > >Statement from the Board of Directors Regarding Israeli Products >December 20, 2002 >Rainbow Grocery Cooperative, Inc. does not have a boycott on products from >Israel. When it was discovered that two departments had a ban which did not >meet our cooperative's policy for a boycott to occur, the Board of Directors >voted to make the decision of these departments null and void. We apologize >for the lack [...] 5789 64 94_RE: Rainbow Grocery followup: Statement from the Board of Directors Regarding Israeli Products11_Batel Libes25_batel_libes@earthlink.net30_Sat, 4 Jan 2003 21:09:31 -0800474_us-ascii Here is their web address: http://www.rainbowgrocery.org I didn't notice a link for e-mail, but there is a contact us link for other purposes.

Batel



-----Original Message----- From: owner-habonet@shamash.org [mailto:owner-habonet@shamash.org]On Behalf Of Kathee Lavine Sent: Saturday, January 04, 2003 7:21 PM To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: Re: Rainbow Grocery followup: Statement from the Board of Directors Regarding Israeli Products [...] 5854 33 20_Re: help with lyrics0_15_Emabear@aol.com28_Sun, 5 Jan 2003 00:28:45 EST83_US-ASCII I learned it at Kinneret in 1951 just as Aliya wrote Ellen Mayers Ginsburg 5888 48 37_Re: jewish geography--habonim edition0_13_SC523@aol.com28_Sun, 5 Jan 2003 04:21:42 EST605_US-ASCII Judy, your story was fabulous and fun. So here's a corollary I hope you'll all enjoy as well:

I was in England last week attending and presenting at the Limmud Conference (2000 Jews {3000 apply but only 2000 are accepted} choosing from over 750 sessions of every possible Jewish topic including politics, Torah, all of the arts, etc.. Presenter Jonathan Freeland - quite well known in the U.K., included in his bio the years that he was in Habonim-Dror and on Workshop. At a packed session to hear Robert Fisk, a well-known correspondent very critical of Israel, the chosen moderator [...] 5937 41 20_union made (or maid)16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Sun, 05 Jan 2003 16:19:38 -0500414_us-ascii SweatX is an employee owned, and unionized garment factory in Los Angeles, California. The union is UNITE, to which SweatX links on the very top of its website. In turn, UNITE promotes SweatX and other unionized manufacturers on a special page of its own website, listing these.

This might be a great place for people to use when preparing t-shirts, etc., with logos and political statements! [...] 5979 108 41_Tu B'Shvat: Online Workshops, Jan 9, 200311_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org30_Sun, 5 Jan 2003 15:40:09 -0600477_us-ascii FYI It should be great! Rozzie





---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: EitanE@jazo.org.il Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 21:37:40 +0200

Shalom,

We are delighted to invite you to join our Tu B'Shvat Marathon for Jewish educators worldwide!

When?

Thursday, January 9, 2003

6 different sessions between the hours of:

3:00 PM - 1:00 AM, Jerusalem time

8:00 AM - 6:00 PM, EST [...] 6088 174 11_redux stuff0_15_Amriv18@aol.com28_Sun, 5 Jan 2003 17:03:56 EST694_UTF-8 over

Haverot/im Elihu's reasoned, calm, altogether admirable piece deserves a hearty yeshar koakh. It ends: >Let me be very straightforward: transfer is neither morally acceptable nor politically feasible. Whether removing the settlements from the West Bank would hasten a poltical settlement is altogether questionable. It would, however, go a long way towards improving both Israel's economy and increasing Zahal's efficiencies. These are inescapable realities. The rest is commentary. Then Hiam and Sam provided approving commentary > I would like to second Elihu's comments here. And > Please consider this a second for Elihu's comments and a hearty voice for considering [...] 6263 62 22_redux stuff & football0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com28_Sun, 5 Jan 2003 21:36:23 EST518_US-ASCII This was a strange day for me. I went to watch football at a hotel with my son Amir here in Pittsburgh. It was a cold snowy day and a gloom settled over me, my son and a dozen others who had settled in to watch a playoff game between the Steelers and the Browns. Our hated and loved Steelers fell hoplessly behind. As the game wound into the final quarter raspy vocied old man who I new to be mentally ill kept shouting about how hopeless situation was. "They can't win" he yelled. I did not let on that [...] 6326 260 28_Fwd: [jwl] Anti-Semitic Book0_15_DebALev@aol.com28_Sun, 5 Jan 2003 22:01:29 EST17_US-ASCII

6587 131 15_Re: redux stuff11_Don Goelman25_don.goelman@villanova.edu31_Mon, 06 Jan 2003 09:39:16 -0500496_us-ascii >

Thanks for your take, Amnon, especially the "Nahariya remains German" story - it's wonderful.

I appreciate your distinction between the 48/67 lines but worry that it's one too fine for various other constituencies (not just the Islamists, but even more "mainstream" anti-Israel groups). And of course my other nightmare about circling the wagons our side of the Green Line is Barak's Lebanon lesson. I thought that one was courageous and strategic at the time, too. [...] 6719 111 60_NYT on excluding Arab politicians from the upcoming election11_Noam Stopak20_nstopak@orionsci.com31_Mon, 06 Jan 2003 09:43:08 -0500410_iso-8859-1

Another triumph of democracy, and another PR coup...

If I were more cynical I'd say that Sharon apparently seeks to inspire a 5th column among the Israeli Arab population to build support for "transfer" from within "green line" Israel along with "transfer" from the West Bank and Gaza.

Noam

+++

January 6, 2003

A Decision That Hurts Israeli Democracy [...] 6831 53 43_A few questions concerning Israeli politics0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com28_Mon, 6 Jan 2003 10:32:24 EST416_US-ASCII In light of the article from the Times that Noam posted I have a few questions concerning Israeli politics that maybe some more educated list members could answer.

1. Are there any Jewish political parties in Israel that support a completely secular state?

2. Are there any political parties that are neither Jewish or Arab? (By this I mean a party that tries to appeal to all Israelis.) [...] 6885 44 46_On the banning of political parties in Israel.11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com30_Mon, 6 Jan 2003 07:55:44 -0800472_iso-8859-1 I "remember" the McCarthy era in the United States,mostly through my readings and following films and such. There were the infamous "outings", the whole deal with "Are you now, or have you ever been a member of.....................", the books by Dalton Trumbo, etc. The whole idea of forcibly, paranoicly and despotically demanding blind loyalty seemed to me the direct antithesis to every thing America stood for. (I haven't changed my mind since then). [...] 6930 39 50_Re: On the banning of political parties in Israel.0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com28_Mon, 6 Jan 2003 11:26:17 EST363_US-ASCII According to the article that was sent in, the two Arabs that were banned claim that they are not in favor of the violent overthrow of the israeli government.

Do you know differently? Is the call for a secular state itself a sign of treason? Don't you get tired of being "... embarrassed that I would even have to make an argument for this point"? 6970 41 37_Re: jewish geography--habonim edition11_Noam Stopak20_nstopak@orionsci.com31_Mon, 06 Jan 2003 13:18:58 -0500566_us-ascii SC523@aol.com wrote:

> Judy, your story was fabulous and fun. So here's a corollary I hope you'll > all enjoy as well: > > ...

Ok, I'll play too.

There I was waltzing at a Folklore Society of Greater Washington contra dance at the National Cathedral School with a woman I met 3 months earlier (but had foolishly neglected to arrange a future meeting - happily it was a correctable mistake and we are now engaged :-). She mentioned one of her daughters was on a year program in Israel, so I asked which program and, as you may have [...] 7012 49 21_When Less can be more0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com28_Mon, 6 Jan 2003 13:23:31 EST532_US-ASCII To Sam and Amnon- I also woke yesterday to the news of the Tel Aviv bombings and I am beginning to become numb to it all. And for this I can't stand myself. But at the same time, I can not understand what is taking so long for someone to see what has to be done or this cycle will continue: 1. Until the Palestinian extremists can be shown that there is no need for their destructive behavior- that is- until Israel and its government begins an open and very vocal and "pictorial" attempt to respect the rights of all [...] 7062 19 37_Re: jewish geography--habonim edition0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com28_Mon, 6 Jan 2003 13:25:06 EST521_US-ASCII SO Noam- Mazal tov- and who is she??????

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/

MyJewishLearning.com, The Personal Gateway to Jewish Exploration Officially launches: http://MyJewishLearning.com/index.htm?source=shamash ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 7082 49 33_Jewish geography--habonim edition11_Don Goelman25_don.goelman@villanova.edu31_Mon, 06 Jan 2003 13:33:10 -0500575_us-ascii OK, here's mine: So I'm walking out of the Prague synagogue after Kabbalat Shabbat in July 1999 and hear somebody mention "Zalman" in English. Well, the subject turned out not to be ex-Philadelphian Jewish Renewal guru Schachter, but someone else the gentleman from Hamilton knew. Hamilton? Did he know of Machaneh Gesher, where one of my Galil kids had been a madrikha? - not only knew, but was on that Camp Committee. But wait! (he says). If I'm Don Goelman, then I'm the one who, as secretary of the Galil CC, had been sending him my minutes. And of course, [...] 7132 32 50_Re: On the banning of political parties in Israel.0_18_DLerner569@aol.com28_Mon, 6 Jan 2003 14:25:43 EST623_US-ASCII Steve,

I agree with your points. Freedom and Democracy are not self-destructive urges. Not everyone is entitled to participate just because they exist. There is an undefined and undefinable line between those interested in changing government policy and those seeking to overthrow the government or form of government. Say if the Plutocrat Party sought in America to distribute power in the political realm on the basis of wealth... opps, maybe I can come up with another example. Point is if its tiny and fringy its tolerable, if its a threat or perceived threat to the status quo, it not acceptable. [...] 7165 59 25_Re: When Less can be more0_18_DLerner569@aol.com28_Mon, 6 Jan 2003 14:57:02 EST532_US-ASCII Dear Sue, I know that I have heard of similar initiatives from the Arab side of the Green Line. I am sure that those efforts are met and exceeded by efforts from Israel's side of the line. Perhaps the voices of these souls are the only rational ones to be heard. Of this I am certain however, the ratio of Arab voices of peace to Israeli voices of peace will always be less that one to one, i.e., more Jews than Arabs. That's ok, but there must be growth in the numbers on both sides. 6 million Israelis wanting peace [...] 7225 33 42_Re: When Less can be more-Thanks to Dennis0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com28_Mon, 6 Jan 2003 15:08:50 EST315_US-ASCII

In a message dated 1/6/03 11:57:35 AM, DLerner569@aol.com writes:

<< On a national and international stage, if we are to live in accordance with our personal value systems and sense of right and wrong, the question will quickly become one of whether we can exist as a nation at all. >> [...] 7259 55 50_Re: On the banning of political parties in Israel.0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com28_Mon, 6 Jan 2003 15:08:43 EST434_US-ASCII In a message dated 1/6/03 2:26:30 PM Eastern Standard Time, DLerner569@aol.com writes:



> Point is if its tiny and fringy its > tolerable, if its a threat or perceived threat to the status quo, it not > acceptable. If the intent of the party is not to play with everyone else > in > the same game (i.e., to govern the country as it exists) then I don't see > why > they should be allowed to participate. > [...] 7315 63 19_Israel's PR Machine0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com28_Tue, 7 Jan 2003 14:14:37 EST617_US-ASCII



<< This last "banter" brought up a "pet peeve"- I am under the impression that Israel's PR machine is terrible. There are so many ggod things that have been done, wonderfult tech advances in medicine and agriculture, fashion and art, etc...But the "good" is always underscored by bad publicity. Is it because Israel feels it is "useless"?- Why aren't there vidoes and articles about the good things that are being done?....I was in ISrael during the Lebanese Civil War, and I heard many stories about Lebanese being brought over to the hospitals in Haifa and Nahariay--but no one in the [...] 7379 138 42_Re: When Less can be more-Thanks to Dennis0_18_DLerner569@aol.com28_Tue, 7 Jan 2003 16:40:29 EST544_US-ASCII Sue, the more I think about it (and I can hardly think of it more than I do) the imperative of being a Jew is singular. It does not rest upon the family, or the congregation, or the community, or the nation. It rests upon each of us to decide as a Jew to think, feel, act, and remember as a Jew. When ten individual Jews decide, each for themselves, to come together to respect the commandments of God, these ten individual decisions are sufficient to save a city of thousands who fail to make the same individual decisions. They [...] 7518 21 50_Re: On the banning of political parties in Israel.0_18_DLerner569@aol.com28_Tue, 7 Jan 2003 16:42:45 EST516_US-ASCII Richard, I agree completely. Dennis

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/

MyJewishLearning.com, The Personal Gateway to Jewish Exploration Officially launches: http://MyJewishLearning.com/index.htm?source=shamash ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 7540 32 7_A book.0_18_DLerner569@aol.com28_Tue, 7 Jan 2003 16:54:26 EST627_US-ASCII I have just, and I mean just, finished the first novel of Jonathan Safran Foer, titled, EVERYTHING IS ILLUMINATED. from Houghton Mifflin (2002).

It is a very strange, haunting, surrealist, story of an American searching for his Grandfather's past on the border between the Ukraine and Poland, and his correspondence with his young Ukrainian guide. It is amazing. The most amazing book I have read in a very, very long time. I found myself strewn across the pages in the guise of many characters. In fragments of conversations. In jokes intentionally unintended, in turns of phrase familiar yet filled with [...] 7573 41 42_Re: When Less can be more-Thanks to Dennis0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com28_Tue, 7 Jan 2003 19:14:28 EST537_US-ASCII Dennis- while I agree with you on one level- that we are "of the world" and in a strange way, our "chosenness" has led us down a different path, at the same time, our entire Zionist education was geared towards the Hans Kohn concept of Nationalism- that a people with a common history, language, ideal, and experience has the right to have a land of its own. A "state" is not necessarily an evil thing in and of itself. Like the people who need to cry out "stop"- it is made up of people who decide how this land- homeland [...] 7615 32 45_PS-Re: When Less can be more-Thanks to Dennis0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com28_Tue, 7 Jan 2003 19:24:51 EST544_US-ASCII A little mush- I remember how it felt when my hands were scratched from picking cotton, or how my arms hurt from potatoes, or how I felt when I was given the responsibility of a few buildings in the hodiyah in Gesher Haziv- or how it felt to squeeze the sand at the beach, or look out over the Galil at night and see the twinkling villages, or go to Nahariyah and have an ice-cream. Look- somehow it felt different from having those experiences somewhere else. I had been to Flrodia, and Atlantic City. I have, believe it or not, [...] 7648 45 49_Re: PS-Re: When Less can be more-Thanks to Dennis0_18_DLerner569@aol.com28_Tue, 7 Jan 2003 20:28:43 EST580_US-ASCII Sue, I pulled a thread and that was where it took me.

Much of our conversation here is about Israel's government policy and the personalities that make up that government. We talk often about how the government should behave as though we were admonishing a Jew about Kashrut. I have expressed the view many times that the Torah says nothing about the correct behavior and values of government. I have pointed out that the countries of the world are prone to judge ours by a standard different from their own, and hate us (as surrogate for our country or vice [...] 7694 44 49_Re: PS-Re: When Less can be more-Thanks to Dennis0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com28_Tue, 7 Jan 2003 21:01:22 EST257_US-ASCII In a message dated 1/7/03 8:37:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, DLerner569@aol.com writes:



> the Jewish people are not and end but a means for all of > humankind.

What does this mean?? (I know the "and" is supposed to be an "an.") 7739 43 49_Re: PS-Re: When Less can be more-Thanks to Dennis0_18_DLerner569@aol.com28_Wed, 8 Jan 2003 00:02:47 EST589_US-ASCII Richard,

It is my belief that it is our task to seek to identify the intent of God with respect to humankind's role in harmonizing and completing the work of creation. Identification, the investigatory outcome, is not the end product, however. This is not an intellectual exercise, or an abstract pursuit, because it is further our obligation to live in the world while engaged in both the effort to understand our purpose and to use our skills and free will to further the purpose of God's creation. This is an effort in which we have been engaged since Abraham, and [...] 7783 32 23_Re: Israel's PR Machine0_16_SMG54321@aol.com28_Wed, 8 Jan 2003 05:10:18 EST620_US-ASCII Finally, another person shares my view. There is so much good in Israel that the world is unaware of. There is a lot of Arab Israeli cooperation. The Arab villages have lived in peace and security throughout Israel's existence. The Arab Israelis live better in Israel than their brethern in Arab countries. The Arab Israelis have benefitted from economic and Medical advances. I returned from Israel last Monday. The country is beautiful. The people are genuinely good and they are put under tough ecomnomic strains. Good people are leaving because of the economic situation. American Jews need to come as [...] 7816 103 28_Fw: Tu B'Shvat at The J Site7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Wed, 08 Jan 2003 11:30:44 +0200387_iso-8859-1 This is Jacob's new list for Tu B'shvat for parents, teachers and everyone. Hope it helps put you in touch with the holiday.

Hi Everyone!

Tu B'Shvat, the New Year for Trees, falls on the 15th of the Hebrew month of Shvat, January 18 this year (5763 / 2003). This mini-holiday is of major importance to our appreciation of Nature and our relationship to it. [...] 7920 129 58_Fw: To End The Violence - By Daniel Pipes, January 7, 20037_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Wed, 08 Jan 2003 12:01:11 +0200461_iso-8859-1 To End The Violence - By Daniel Pipes, January 7, 2003 Subject: Fw: To End The Violence - By Daniel Pipes, January 7, 2003







By Daniel Pipes The New York Post January 7, 2003

THE Palestinian campaign of terrorism rolls on, with 22 people murdered in Tel Aviv Sunday. And even without counting minor incidents involving rocks and firebombs, the Palestinians average more than 10 attacks on Israelis every day. [...] 8050 36 13_"God" again ?4_Meir21_meir_h@maccabi.org.il30_Wed, 8 Jan 2003 14:16:58 +0200401_windows-1255 Just thought that I'd mention again that there are many of us who think that a belief in a "god" is archaic.

I'm willing to agree that our job as Jews is to seek to identify what we would consider good about harmonizing human efforts. I don't need a "god" for that, or a "creation". So far from what I can fathom of the "purpose" of the universe is our eventual annihilation. [...] 8087 79 17_Chosenness again?13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Wed, 08 Jan 2003 08:12:19 -0500389_us-ascii Dear All,

Let me echo what Meir wrote by adding that many of us think that the idea that the Jews were somehow "chosen" is archaic too.

Telling people you are special doesn't help them like you either. Our ancestors wrote this book (whether you think it is divinely inspired or not)--what chance was there that Ishmael or Esau would be the heroes of the story? [...] 8167 48 30_Chosenness, God, and Community0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com28_Wed, 8 Jan 2003 10:44:20 EST591_US-ASCII Hi Dennis- Well- Our basic value system- the Ten Commandments- was not given to Moses- but to the Jewish People through him . The fact that they did not "deserve" them at first, was a sign that the people were not ready, and that their "government" was not working. Community is our basic building bl,ock. When synagogues began to lose that, then chavurot srung up... Moses could not enter Israel because of his flaws. Government has existed in the Tanach long beofre that- there were "states and countries and enemies and friendly tribes. It seems that humanity can not exist [...] 8216 42 17_Re: "God" again ?0_18_DLerner569@aol.com28_Wed, 8 Jan 2003 12:39:09 EST533_US-ASCII Dear Meir,

I do not intend to preach, or convert. God is a word. the Universe has no purpose, it is, and it operates according to a set of rules (not values) that we are learning. We build castles in the sand (at least I do) not because they are immutable, but because as the writers of the Torah understood, we are creators, too, even though we recognize the fleeting nature of all we build. When I speak of God (this is a personal matter) I have no illusion of a power interested or invested in me, but as the [...] 8259 40 21_Re: Chosenness again?0_18_DLerner569@aol.com28_Wed, 8 Jan 2003 12:57:26 EST599_US-ASCII Dear Judy,

I have no attachment to chosenness. As a former member of and Bar Mitzvah in a Reconstructionist temple (Temple Sinai in Buffalo) chosenness was not a concept I grew up with. But regardless of its marketing consequences, tell me that you do not feel deeply that there is something in us Jews that is different from other groups that you can identify, something that leads us to focus more on others, on the condition of the world, on improvement and understanding, and that we don't actively struggle with the balance between that and self. I recognize and celebrate [...] 8300 26 34_Re: Chosenness, God, and Community0_18_DLerner569@aol.com28_Wed, 8 Jan 2003 13:01:19 EST676_US-ASCII Sue,

Please address whether the community/government operates on the same standards as the individuals members of that community, or whether different rules apply.

Thank you, Dennis

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/

MyJewishLearning.com, The Personal Gateway to Jewish Exploration Officially launches: http://MyJewishLearning.com/index.htm?source=shamash ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 8327 52 21_Re: Chosenness again?13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Wed, 08 Jan 2003 13:33:13 -0500602_us-ascii Dear Dennis,

So what you are saying is that we are not chosen, just superior?

Shalom, Judy





DLerner569@aol.com wrote:

> Dear Judy, > > I have no attachment to chosenness. As a former member of and Bar Mitzvah in > a Reconstructionist temple (Temple Sinai in Buffalo) chosenness was not a > concept I grew up with. But regardless of its marketing consequences, tell > me that you do not feel deeply that there is something in us Jews that is > different from other groups that you can identify, something that leads us to > focus more on others, [...] 8380 21 34_Re: Chosenness, God, and Community0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com28_Wed, 8 Jan 2003 13:56:39 EST479_US-ASCII I had to laugh- in the ideal world, they would operate with the value system of the people, but "lead"- Of course. look at the leaders of the world and ha-ha- or should we all just cry?....need I say more?..s

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 8402 27 32_Re: Chosenness again?-and denial0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com28_Wed, 8 Jan 2003 14:02:03 EST620_US-ASCII Judy!- well- I wouldn't use the word "superior"- but look at the facts: Where are the Romans and Greeks? Where are the Assyrians and Turks? Or the great Egyptians? With all of their contributions to society- the classic civilizations have disappeared. We- as a nation- seem to have outlived all of them despite the tribulations of our people. Something has made us outlive them and survive. It isn't being "superior'- maybe it is just a "hunger"...I don't know- But there is something definitely different...Shakespeare said it- "Don't we all bleed"- yes- but we also are all also different with different [...] 8430 25 21_Re: Chosenness again?0_18_DLerner569@aol.com28_Wed, 8 Jan 2003 14:20:08 EST339_US-ASCII Judy, I prefer different. But let's look at it. If there is no difference, or for that matter, we don't have some sense that the world would be better our way, then why bother? The Italians have a great? heritage and culture. They think they're better than everyone else, and people are not filling ditches with them. Dennis [...] 8456 26 34_Re: Chosenness, God, and Community0_18_DLerner569@aol.com28_Wed, 8 Jan 2003 14:25:39 EST384_US-ASCII Sue, please say more, much more.

I may have it wrong, but it seems to me the prophets had a lot to talk about. We have suffered from corruption in the Priesthood, corruption in the Kingdoms, corruption in the democracy. Even Jews cannot reliably avoid the corruption's of power. So you have to ask yourself, at least I do, is power the right route for us? Dennis [...] 8483 47 17_Re: "God" again ?0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com28_Wed, 8 Jan 2003 15:37:16 EST364_US-ASCII In a message dated 1/8/03 7:15:12 AM Eastern Standard Time, meir_h@maccabi.org.il writes:



> I'm willing to agree that our job as Jews is to seek to identify what we > would consider good about harmonizing human efforts. >

As far as my admittedly limited mind can fathom, isn't this the job of all people, at all times and everywhere? 8531 25 21_Re: Chosenness again?0_18_Brianscoop@aol.com31_Wed, 08 Jan 2003 15:37:26 -0500470_iso-8859-1 DLerner569 writes:

> They [The Italians] think they're better than everyone else

I may be mistaken, but I don't believe this is a fundamental element of their religion.

--Brian

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 8557 44 32_Re: Chosenness again?-and denial0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com28_Wed, 8 Jan 2003 15:42:12 EST204_US-ASCII In a message dated 1/8/03 2:05:11 PM Eastern Standard Time, LiberHawke@aol.com writes:



> Where > are the Romans and Greeks?

They are what is now called Western civilization. 8602 29 9_re: power0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com28_Wed, 8 Jan 2003 18:05:38 EST551_US-ASCII Dennis- I have been thinking about the prophets a lot--look- power is a word which symbolizes a use of energy...it can be used in a positive or negative way. Unfortunatley, all too often, the powerful either use it badly or unwisely, or end up being blinded as to why and how they got that energy to begin with. I don't know if it is a "guy" or gender thing...but it seems corruption always leads to war games. Again I am thinking of Lysistrata and the "power" of women to withhold sex until the men stop fighting...I just don't get it, [...] 8632 317 72_A conversation between Amos Oz and David Grossman in three parts/ Part 111_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org30_Wed, 8 Jan 2003 20:45:09 -0600348_us-ascii Shabbat reading.... Elective Affinities / Reality bites

Writers Amos Oz and David Grossman, two of the most prominent members of the Israeli peace camp, meet for a serious conversation about the state of the nation and the situation of the left in particular. Despite differences of nuance, they will both cast the same ballot [...] 8950 382 43_Part 2 of the conversation/ Oz and Grossman11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org30_Wed, 8 Jan 2003 20:46:06 -0600595_us-ascii The sweeping disgust of the left









Amos Oz, those feelings are not alien to you, are they? You wrote about them long before the intifada.

Oz: "I always had the feeling that we were walking on thin ice. On probation for good behavior, drawing on the bank of the memory of the Holocaust. Let me put it this way: large parts of the Arab world, and perhaps in Islam as well, have not gotten over the terrible affront they experienced as a result of Israel's establishment in 1948. They saw that defeat as the crowning moment of 800 years of [...] 9333 217 48_FWD: Part 3 of the conversation/ Oz and Grossman11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org30_Wed, 8 Jan 2003 20:46:46 -0600582_us-ascii

Sharon, Mitzna, Meretz, Shinui



What do you think of Sharon? Do you detest him?

Grossman: "I don't detest him. I think he has a very narrow worldview and that he reduces everything to one shallow concept: force. He believes that we have to use more and more force. He has no other solution and he is totally inflexible. Therefore I think he is leading Israel to a very dangerous place. As a leader he is supposed to be taking us into the future, but instead he is constantly leading us into the past. What astonishes me is his success. He [...] 9551 150 10_Tikun olam4_Meir21_meir_h@maccabi.org.il30_Thu, 9 Jan 2003 05:19:36 +0200277_windows-1255 I'm willing to expand on this. And this is my personal point of view. I don't know if it is the job of all the people to make a better world. It seems to me that most religions talk about making "better" people by their beliefs. Judaism works with community. [...] 9702 20 17_Re: "God" again ?0_18_DLerner569@aol.com28_Thu, 9 Jan 2003 00:15:08 EST497_US-ASCII Says who? Dennis

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/

MyJewishLearning.com, The Personal Gateway to Jewish Exploration Officially launches: http://MyJewishLearning.com/index.htm?source=shamash ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 9723 20 21_Re: Chosenness again?0_18_DLerner569@aol.com28_Thu, 9 Jan 2003 00:16:16 EST555_US-ASCII Perhaps, but they way I hear it only Catholics get to go to heaven. Dennis

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/

MyJewishLearning.com, The Personal Gateway to Jewish Exploration Officially launches: http://MyJewishLearning.com/index.htm?source=shamash ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 9744 484 21_Fwd: Fw: Must Read!!!0_12_Zifl@aol.com28_Thu, 9 Jan 2003 09:33:16 EST143_US-ASCII I don't know if anyone has yet seen this movie (I have not) - but I felt it was important to share this review.

Laurie (Zifkin) 10229 196 72_FW: FYI- Monday 13, Film about Italians saving Jews during the HOLOCAUST11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com30_Thu, 9 Jan 2003 09:16:15 -0800381_utf-8 Fellow Habonetters

This recommendation was passed along to me by one of the staunchest supporters of Israel I have come across. I am passing her recommendation along, so that the film can be seen by contacting othet Italian Cultural Centers in other areas.

Steve



Subject: FYI- Monday 13, Film about Italians saving Jews during the HOLOCAUST [...] 10426 671 30_FW: Manufacturing Anti-Semites11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com30_Thu, 9 Jan 2003 10:10:59 -0800669_us-ascii Fwd: Manufacturing Anti-Semites -----Original Message----- From: Steve Klein [mailto:kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com] Sent: Thursday, January 09, 2003 10:06 AM To: drlucy@lava.net Subject: RE: Manufacturing Anti-Semites



Lucy

Thank you for sending me the article- and for asking for an opinion.

I've read Avnery for 40 years now. It is probably important for people like Avnery to continue to take the positions that he does, if only to stave off complacency. I don't think he is a self-hater. I don't think he is in anyone's pocketbook. There are two things that I do know, that may explain his lines of "reasoning". It was in one [...] 11098 38 38_Re: A book- Everything Is Illuminated.0_18_Green88888@aol.com28_Thu, 9 Jan 2003 18:18:08 EST393_US-ASCII I just read the book too! What is more amazing is that Jonathan Safran Foer wrote this book when he was 19 ! He spent the next two years editing the book, finding a publisher etc. (He is now about 26 -I just heard him speak). The author was greatly influenced by his grandmother-but the story about the town etc. is fictitious. I'm sure we will hear more from this young author! Donna 11137 41 24_Re: Jonathan Foer's book11_Jack Porter23_jacknusan@earthlink.net31_Thu, 09 Jan 2003 20:27:04 -0800547_US-ASCII I too heard the buzz on the book--EVERYTHING IS ILLLUMINATED-- and rushed out to buy it. Maybe I should re-read it and maybe I'm turning into old fuddy-duddy but I don't know what the buzz is about. It is an unusually written book. He definitely has talent but I have just returned from Ukraine (my second trip in six years) where I retraced by parents' escape from the killing fields of Maniewicz, Ukraine to the DP camps of Bindermichl, near Liz, Austria 57 years a go. I was just a baby. I went to similar areas of Ukraine (it is [...] 11179 37 24_Re: Jonathan Foer's book0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Fri, 10 Jan 2003 11:11:21 EST560_US-ASCII Dear Jack,

The book is a novel. While the stetl is described as vanished from the earth, it is symbolically a place that can only be seen/visited in the darkness, as in the way periods of disaster and evil are referred to as darkness, i.e., "the Dark Ages." In fact the Jonathan finds the strange pieces of his family, the history of the Stetl, and even a person who participated in the murder of the Jews there. The novel goes beyond that to examine the human tragedy of the naive villagers who were drawn into the insanity of that time. [...] 11217 348 102_FW: FYI & Action : Mark your calendar Los Angeles events, and reporton Adam Shapiro's lecture + action11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Fri, 10 Jan 2003 09:30:14 -0800346_iso-8859-1 FYI & Action : Mark your calendar Los Angeles events, and report on Adam Shapiro's lecture + action -----Original Message----- From: Nava [mailto:nava@socal.rr.com] Sent: Friday, January 10, 2003 12:59 AM To: Nava Skolnik Subject: FYI & Action : Mark your calendar Los Angeles events, and reporton Adam Shapiro's lecture + action [...] 11566 48 24_Re: Jonathan Foer's book11_Jack Porter23_jacknusan@earthlink.net31_Fri, 10 Jan 2003 15:53:25 -0800550_US-ASCII on 1/10/03 8:11 AM, DLerner569@aol.com at DLerner569@aol.com wrote:

> Dear Jack, > > The book is a novel. While the stetl is described as vanished from the > earth, it is symbolically a place that can only be seen/visited in the > darkness, as in the way periods of disaster and evil are referred to as > darkness, i.e., "the Dark Ages." In fact the Jonathan finds the strange > pieces of his family, the history of the Stetl, and even a person who > participated in the murder of the Jews there. The novel goes beyond that to > [...] 11615 36 24_Re: Jonathan Foer's book0_18_Green88888@aol.com29_Fri, 10 Jan 2003 17:47:53 EST300_US-ASCII Although he says he found nothing there, he obviously found enough there to write the book. Jonathan admits to being very much influenced by his grandmother and her stories and memories. He also spent a great deal of time in Prague before or after his trip to Ukrainia. Shabbat shalom, Donna 11652 53 15_ball point pens0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com29_Sun, 12 Jan 2003 12:29:02 EST390_US-ASCII

When NASA first started sending up astronauts, they quickly discovered that ball-point pens would not work in zero gravity. To combat the problem, NASA scientists spent a decade and $1.2 billion to develop a pen that writes in zero gravity, upside down, underwater, on almost any surface including glass and at temperatures ranging from below freezing to 300 Celsius. [...] 11706 39 19_Re: ball point pens11_Don Goelman25_don.goelman@villanova.edu31_Sun, 12 Jan 2003 14:45:03 -0500619_us-ascii Wasn't there a Seinfeld episode with the NASA pen?

----- Original Message ----- From: Smfgrappa@aol.com Date: Sunday, January 12, 2003 12:29 pm Subject: ball point pens

> > When NASA first started sending up astronauts, they quickly discovered > that ball-point pens would not work in zero gravity. To combat the > problem, NASA scientists spent a decade and $1.2 billion to > develop a > pen that writes in zero gravity, upside down, underwater, on almost > any surface including glass and at temperatures ranging from below > freezing to 300 Celsius. > > Confronted with the same problem, [...] 11746 70 19_Re: ball point pens9_Norm Kane19_normk@earthlink.net31_Sun, 12 Jan 2003 19:55:09 -0800578_us-ascii This is an old joke and its the Russians who used a pencil in Outer Space.

Smfgrappa@aol.com wrote:

> > When NASA first started sending up astronauts, they quickly discovered > > that ball-point pens would not work in zero gravity. To combat the > problem, NASA scientists spent a decade and $1.2 billion to develop a > pen that writes in zero gravity, upside down, underwater, on almost > any surface including glass and at temperatures ranging from below > freezing to 300 Celsius. > > Confronted with the same problem, the Israelis used a pencil. > > > 11817 121 28_moslem population statistics13_moshe sheskin24_moshes7@netvision.net.il57_Mon, 13 Jan 2003 06:03:05 +0200 (Jerusalem Standard Time)293_windows-1255 I'm looking for European population statistics for different countries, especially the percentage of the Moslems to the total population.

If you have this information or know where I can obtain it, please reply to

moshes7@netvision.net.il

Thanks.

Moshe 11939 128 34_FW: Please make your voice heard !11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Mon, 13 Jan 2003 08:18:36 -0800410_iso-8859-1

-----Original Message----- From: marcia plager [mailto:mplager@socal.rr.com] Sent: Sunday, January 12, 2003 6:58 AM To: Elly Krapek; Doug and Renee Goldenberg-Schwartz; Baruch Eichenbaum Subject: Fw: Please make your voice heard !







Subject: CNN is at it again

CNN will continue to do this until they get the answer they want. Don't let that happen. [...] 12068 83 32_Re: moslem population statistics13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il31_Mon, 13 Jan 2003 18:29:07 +0200322_windows-1255 Moshe, try these:

http://www.adherents.com/

http://wvs.isr.umich.edu/

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14275a.htm

http://www.census.gov/ipc/www/idbprint.html

http://www.muslim-canada.org/muslimstats.html

http://www.overpopulation.org/culture.html

Good luck, Jon 12152 2785 30_Fw: THE FIRST ISRAELI IN SPACE4_sima19_simagr@telhai.ac.il31_Mon, 13 Jan 2003 21:05:54 +0200187_iso-8859-8-i MessageOK, I apologize in advance, I know we're not supposed to send attachments on habonet, but in these difficult times, this was just too good to miss. To better days Sima 14938 53 31_Campaign 2002/ from www.WSJ.com11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org31_Tue, 14 Jan 2003 06:06:25 -0600522_us-ascii CAMPAIGN 2003

The Mideast's McCain-Feingold Suicide bombers and campaign finance laws, Israeli politics is complicated.

BY BRET STEPHENS Tuesday, January 14, 2003 12:01 a.m. EST

JERUSALEM--In the run-up to the Jan. 28 elections here, deputy prime minister and ex-Soviet dissident Natan Sharansky, of the Yisrael B'Aliya party, likes to tell audiences that he's one Israeli politician who went to jail before going into politics. The line gets a chuckle. But he isn't playing for laughs. [...] 14992 135 14_Life in Israel9_Ben Cohen14_bencee@rcn.com31_Tue, 14 Jan 2003 12:07:42 -0500605_iso-8859-1 Dear Chaverim: Although I try not to participate in all the "wordiness" that goes on in Habonet, I feel the following excerpt from a letter from dear friends in Israel is worth reading. It was posted on January 12, '03. Ben Cohen

"With the various dates of Bush's "delivery" slowly and inevitably approaching, we are clearing out our bomb shelter which has accumulated a lot of junk since scud times. Not exactly Fibber Magee's closet, but not far. Gas masks have been systematically renewed nationally, and we independently have had the gaskets on the door and vents checked by an [...] 15128 445 65_from Wall Street Journal The psychological roots of anti-Semitism11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org31_Tue, 14 Jan 2003 14:51:46 -0600689_ISO-8859-1

AT WAR

'Bomb Texas' The psychological roots of anti-Americanism.

BY VICTOR DAVIS HANSON Monday, January 13, 2003 12:01 a.m. EST

With this past autumn's discussion in Washington over what to do about Iraq there arrived also the season of protests. They were everywhere. In the national newspapers, Common Cause published a full-page letter, backed by "7,000 signatories," demanding (as if it had been outlawed) a "full and open debate" before any American action against Iraq. More radical cries emanated from Not in Our Name, a nationwide "project" spearheaded by Noam Chomsky and affiliates, which likewise ran full-page advertisements in the [...] 15574 35 50_"Islamic Anti -Semitism in Historical Perspective"11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org31_Wed, 15 Jan 2003 07:40:12 -0600402_us-ascii Shalom. For anyone interested, my recent essay on "Islamic Anti- Semitism in Historical Perspective" has been placed online at: http://www.adl.org/anti_semitism/arab/Arab_Anti-Semitism.pdf It covers the entire period of Islam, but focuses on the evolution of Islamic anti-Semitism after the founding of Israel and especially the 1967 war.

I welcome comments and criticism. Thanks. [...] 15610 94 34_The New Math By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN0_14_HESHIG@aol.com29_Wed, 15 Jan 2003 09:53:15 EST638_US-ASCII The New Math

By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN

JERUSALEM - You can understand everything you need to know about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict today through a simple math equation offered by Danny Rubinstein, the Haaretz newspaper's Palestinian affairs expert. The equation goes like this: Suppose Israel discovers that 10 Palestinians from Nablus are planning suicide attacks. Israel says: If we can kill at least two, that will be progress, because only eight will be left. The Palestinians, by contrast, say: If you kill two, four more will volunteer to take their places, and you will be left with 12. So for Israel [...] 15705 299 6_At War16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Wed, 15 Jan 2003 11:18:08 -0500596_us-ascii Roz Barland's posting of the Victor Hansen piece "AT WAR" from yesterday's Wall Street Journal online, originally from the December issue of Commentary, cries for an answer. I won't do it here, but there are several points that immediately come to mind. I. Hansen uses a bulldozer to gain entry to an already open door. Pace his drumbeat against poor Noam Chomsky, I received today via the internet a bromide from Arthur Waskow calling for attendance at a tu b'shvat rally soon in DC coupled with Martin Luther King's birthday to protest what may be pending US action against Iraq. [...] 16005 31 60_Roz Barland has sent you this page: IEM: For Youth Movements0_17_rbarland@mjds.org31_Wed, 15 Jan 2003 21:20:13 -0500611_iso-8859-1 Roz Barland thought that you would be interested in this page at www.ujc.org

Your friend's message: I hope you can take advantage of this.

IEM: For Youth Movements http://www.ujc.org/content_display.html?ArticleID=66306



Disclaimer: The comments made in this e-mail were generated by a user of the site listed.

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 16037 565 10_On "Jihad"13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il31_Thu, 16 Jan 2003 07:12:35 +0200573_windows-1255 How the Media Misconstrue Jihad and the Crusades By Timothy Furnish Mr. Furnish, Ph.D., is Assistant Professor, World History, Georgia Perimeter College.





It's axiomatic among historians that winners write (or sometimes rewrite) history. How strange it is, then, that on the topic of Jihads and their Western analog, the Crusades, the losers in the post-1492 struggle for world mastery (the Islamic world) and their willing spinmeisters (academics and media pundits) are currently foisting their ahistorical views on the rest of us. [...] 16603 407 40_FW: A Brit's look at America, post 9 -1111_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Wed, 15 Jan 2003 22:21:18 -0800630_iso-8859-1

-----Original Message----- From: marcia plager [mailto:mplager@socal.rr.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 15, 2003 8:40 PM To: Doug and Renee Goldenberg-Schwartz; Elly Krapek; Baruch Eichenbaum Subject: Fw: A Brit's look at America, post 9 -11







A Brit's look at America, post- 9/11

Just a word of background for those of you who are not familiar with the Daily Mirror newspaper which is published in England. It is a notorious left-wing daily and is usually very anti-American. So, It's kinda hard to believe that they published this editorial. The author is Tony Parsons. [...] 17011 88 31_For those in the NYC Metro area0_14_HESHIG@aol.com29_Thu, 16 Jan 2003 11:25:33 EST375_US-ASCII Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 21:21:00 -0500

Dear Artistor friend of the arts. A number of New York-based musicians, poets and artists under the banner of the Ad Hoc Committee for Artists Against the Occupation will be participating in "A Benefit Event to End the Israeli Occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip" scheduled for February 8th in New York City. [...] 17100 32 64_Re: Roz Barland has sent you this page: IEM: For Youth Movements0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Thu, 16 Jan 2003 15:04:43 EST132_US-ASCII Thanks Roz--I will investigate if there is any way to get NY people involved in the NY screening--Hope you are fine- .susie 17133 30 64_Re: Roz Barland has sent you this page: IEM: For Youth Movements11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org31_Thu, 16 Jan 2003 14:18:16 -0600606_us-ascii yes, I am. How are you doing?



---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: LiberHawke@aol.com Reply-To: habonet@shamash.org Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 15:04:43 EST

>Thanks Roz--I will investigate if there is any way to get NY people involved >in the NY screening--Hope you are fine- .susie > >

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 17164 622 36_Fw: Arab Anti Semitism in 20th cent.7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Thu, 16 Jan 2003 20:21:12 +0200601_iso-8859-1 Sorry to send such a long article, but it is very interesting!





Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs

















Post-Holocaust and Anti-Semitism No. 5 30 Shevat 5763 / 2 February 2003





The Development of Arab Anti-Semitism An Interview with Meir Litvak



Dr. Meir Litvak of the Dayan Center for Middle Eastern and African Studies at Tel Aviv University specializes in the study of Arab anti-Semitism. He is currently also researching Arab perceptions of the Holocaust. [...] 17787 91 16_A Legend Retires0_15_NEVETS2@aol.com29_Fri, 17 Jan 2003 00:56:15 EST421_ISO-8859-1 Chevre, Shalom

Camp Galil's legendary registrar, Hank Albert, has decided to retire, and so we have begun to seek a new Camp Registrar. The position is year- round and part-time. Most of the work takes place between September and June. The job entails recruiting and registering campers, working closely with the Camp Administrator, Camp Associate Director and Camp Committee (Board of Directors). [...] 17879 80 69_Fwd: TU B'SHVAT ISRAELI FOLK DANCE PARTY & MARATHON with AYALAH GOREN0_13_SC523@aol.com29_Fri, 17 Jan 2003 01:07:40 EST211_US-ASCII For anyone in New York City this weekend, this is a great "oldies" dance session (not oldies for Habochevreh - these are the ones still done at camp today) plus special guest Ayalah Goren - Enjoy! Aliya 17960 71 38_Re: The New Math By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com29_Fri, 17 Jan 2003 07:02:24 EST300_US-ASCII This is the most important piece on Habonet in a week. I read it in Cleveland and sank in to a glumy mood. Friedman as usual is right. Thank you for posting this. I pulled out only the title and the closing paragraph to remind myself and others how desperate the situation is becoming. [...] 18032 22 24_Israel related resources11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org31_Fri, 17 Jan 2003 07:57:37 -0600486_us-ascii This is a very useful listing of a range of web pages which are Israel related resources. You may want to bookmark many of these sites directly.... http://www.cs.cornell.edu/barr/repository/israel/links.html



------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 18055 66 47_In memory. Man is as the tree in the field.....7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Fri, 17 Jan 2003 16:27:53 +0200607_windows-1255 Man is like a tree in the field. Like man the tree flourishes and like the tree, man is cut down.....

Today, the families of the soldiers killed in Jenin were invited by the Maccabi sports organization and the Jewish National Fund to a Tu B'shvat March and tree planting ceremony in Mitzpeh Modi'in. We arrived to see hundreds of people, grandparents, parents, siblings, children, and other family members and friends of the fallen who gathered in the forest, genially talking, eating the varied dried fruits of the holiday set forth on tables under the trees. It was an easy-going [...] 18122 63 7_forward10_Josh Cohen22_mazkir@habonimdror.org31_Fri, 17 Jan 2003 12:49:11 -0500417_iso-8859-1 éĺí řŕůĺď 2003–01–12

ůěéç é÷ř , ůěĺí řá .

ůîé ňđú âřéď – řâď ĺŕđé ňĺáăú áŕřâĺď áĺâřé äîëĺď ěîăřéëé çĺ"ě ůě äîçě÷ä ěçéđĺę áńĺëđĺú äéäĺăéú .

äîëĺď ěîăřéëé çĺ"ě äëůéř ňůřĺú ŕěôé îăřéëéí î÷äéěĺú éäĺăéĺú řáĺú îŕć 1946 ĺňă äéĺí . áéîéí ŕěĺ îĺ÷í ŕřâĺď ěîňď áĺâřé äîëĺď äçééí áéůřŕě ĺáçĺ"ě . ŕçú îîčřĺú äŕřâĺď ě÷ééí ëđń çâéâé ěëě áĺâřé äîëĺď áéřĺůěéí áéď äúŕřéëéí 23 – 26 áŕĺ÷čĺář 2003 . [...] 18186 46 12_from Haaretz0_14_HESHIG@aol.com31_Fri, 17 Jan 2003 13:13:24 -0500501_iso-8859-1 With eyes glued shut

By Yoel Marcus



"Corruption and thumbing its nose at public opinion have become a way of life for the government. Year after year, the state comptroller rakes the Likud administration over the coals. Nepotism, back-stage appointments, waste and embezzlement of public funds, immunity for crooked public officials, distribution of perks and benefits. With its politicizing and colossal appetite for appointments, the Likud has lost all shame." [...] 18233 133 19_Dr. King and Israel0_13_JLCAA@aol.com29_Fri, 17 Jan 2003 20:29:41 EST695_UTF-8 Thought you might want to see the Op-Ed article below, by Stuart Appelbaum, President of the Jewish Labor Committee. It has appeared this week in a number of publications across the country, including the Atlanta Jewish Times, the Boston Jewish Advocate, the Chicago Jewish News [link: http://www.chijewishnews.com/features.jsp#68174 ], the Detroit Jewish News, and the Washington [DC] Jewish Week [link: http://washingtonjewishweek.com/localstory.html?/wjw/279691021222822.bsp ], as well as the website of the Religious Action Center of the Reform Movement [link: http://www.rac.org/social/opedmlk.html ]. If you see it in your local Jewish paper, I'd appreciate knowing about this. [...] 18367 196 39_Article on the Russian vote in the 200311_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org31_Fri, 17 Jan 2003 20:47:39 -0600651_us-ascii Subject: Article on the Russian vote in the 2003 Israeli elections

WILL THE RUSSIAN IMMIGRANTS AGAIN BE ISRAEL'S KEY SWING VOTERS? by Dr. Robert O. Freedman



In three of Israel's past four elections, immigrants to Israel from the former Soviet Union(FSU) have provided the swing vote to elect an Israeli Prime Minister. In 1992, dissatisfied with Likud's performance in providing the housing and jobs needed by the hundreds of thousands of immigrants from the FSU who poured into Israel from 1989 to 1991 , the so-called "Russian Vote" helped elect Labor Party leader Yitzhak Rabin as Israel's Prime Minister. Then, [...] 18564 431 10_Tu B'Shvat0_24_purpleroot8@netscape.net31_Fri, 17 Jan 2003 22:27:42 -0500466_iso-8859-1 I'd like to wish everyone all the best on Tu B'Shvat. And at the same time, I'd like to pass on a relevant message from Rabbis for Human Rights, off the Shalom Center site. Shabbat Shalom -- Shloime (Sol)





>Make a difference! > >to the Shalom Center! > > >Subscribe >to Rabbi Waskow's weekly Thought-Letter > > >Email the >Shalom Center > > > One Tree, Two Peoples, One Land: >Tu B'Shvat Resources >from Rabbis for Human Rights [...] 18996 169 13_Fw: (biology)6_livney20_livney@barkai.org.il31_Sat, 18 Jan 2003 09:27:10 +0200603_iso-8859-1

-------------------------------- Avi and Bat7 Livney Kibbutz Barkai D.N. Menashe 37860 Israel







Subject: biology





<< - Proof that the world is nuts









In Lebanon, men are legally allowed to have sex with animals, but the

animals must be female. Having sexual relations with a male animal is

punishable by death. (Like THAT makes sense.)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

In Bahrain, a male doctor may legally examine a woman's genitals, but is [...] 19166 168 23_Re: Dr. King and Israel0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com29_Sat, 18 Jan 2003 12:11:51 EST358_UTF-8 In a message dated 1/17/03 8:30:17 PM Eastern Standard Time, JLCAA@aol.com writes:



> We can only speculate how, had he lived, Dr. King might have helped heal the

> divisions between Jews and African-Americans - or even the contributions he

> could have made toward achieving Middle East peace. What we do know is that [...] 19335 73 22_Peres Center for Peace11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org31_Sun, 19 Jan 2003 07:40:31 -0600727_us-ascii http://www.peres-center.org/

About The Peres Center for Peace







Nobel Laureate Shimon Peres founded The Peres Center for Peace in 1996 with the express aim of realizing his vision of a "New Middle East", in which people of the region work together to build peace through socio-economic cooperation and people-to-people relations.

Our strategy remains constant and focused, although our tools and methodologies adapt to reflect the dynamic realities of the Middle East. As a non-partisan, non-governmental organization, The Peres Center for Peace works in parallel to, but independently from, the political process towards peace. It is this unique mandate that allows us [...] 19409 59 9_DoVeN-ing11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org31_Sun, 19 Jan 2003 11:43:29 -0600447_us-ascii DoVeN-ing ========= An essential element of [Yinglish] DoVeN-ing = "(congregational) praying" is the requirement to face in the direction of Jerusalem.

The nave of older Western churches usually was oriented towards Jerusalem. Compare navigate.

Random House online contains:

orient 9. to place so as to face the east, esp. to build (a church) with the chief altar to the east and the chief entrance to the west. [...] 19469 184 23_RE: Dr. King and Israel11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Sun, 19 Jan 2003 21:56:07 -0800553_UTF-8 To my fellow Habonetters

I am declaring a "time-out" from my self-imposed moratorium on responding to the libelous and callous haters. Sometimes the drivel is so over-the-top that to remain silent would constitute acquiescence to their incredible absurdity.

What possible umbrage could even the most demented and tortured of souls find in the passage about Dr. King? Was it the wish for "Middle East peace"? Was it "the vision of a secure Israel"? What in these fervent statements could possibly set loose this ugliest of bile? [...] 19654 56 23_Re: Dr. King and Israel13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Mon, 20 Jan 2003 02:01:29 -0500370_us-ascii Dear Steve,

Dr King has been raised to an icon and so we each claim that he would agree with our own positions. The person you are responding to thinks that Dr King would have trouble supporting Israel under the leadership of Ariel Sharon. You think he would support Israel in the current situation. None of us know for sure--it is all speculation. [...] 19711 76 23_RE: Dr. King and Israel11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Mon, 20 Jan 2003 07:23:50 -0800684_us-ascii Judy

Well said and well taken.

Steve







-----Original Message----- From: owner-habonet@shamash.org [mailto:owner-habonet@shamash.org]On Behalf Of Judith Gelman Sent: Sunday, January 19, 2003 11:01 PM To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: Re: Dr. King and Israel



Dear Steve,

Dr King has been raised to an icon and so we each claim that he would agree with our own positions. The person you are responding to thinks that Dr King would have trouble supporting Israel under the leadership of Ariel Sharon. You think he would support Israel in the current situation. None of us know for sure--it is all speculation. [...] 19788 77 44_Israel's Safety and Peace in the Middle East11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Mon, 20 Jan 2003 08:34:20 -0800584_iso-8859-1 To: Judy Gelman (continued)

Dear Judy

Again, thank you for helping return things to their proper perspective for me. I of course agree that there is no way to reliably guess which way one person's feelings and loyalties would have developed and gone after so many years. Dr. King was not a stagnant thinker, and many enormous world events have taken place in the years since his passing. I would like to fantasize that he would have remained with the idea that he would have remained with the overall idea that peace in the Middle East would be good for [...] 19866 112 48_Re: Israel's Safety and Peace in the Middle East11_Noam Stopak20_nstopak@orionsci.com31_Mon, 20 Jan 2003 12:01:29 -0500587_us-ascii Steve Klein wrote:

> To: Judy Gelman (continued) > > Dear Judy > > Again, thank you for helping return things to their proper perspective for > me.

And thanks Steve for helping return things to their proper perspective for me. Your use of the phrase "jerry built" below, makes a mockery of anything you have to say about anti-Semitism and denies you the moral high ground you seek to claim. If one were inclined (inkleined?) toward hyperbole, one might even claim it was "indicative of an illness". At a minimum I believe it is evidence of a "callous hater", [...] 19979 153 48_RE: Israel's Safety and Peace in the Middle East11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Mon, 20 Jan 2003 09:23:28 -0800423_us-ascii Noam

Please help me out here. Until this moment, I had no idea that the term "Jerry-built" was offensive. Whom did I offend? How did I offend? I appreciate your help on this matter.

Oh, by the way, don't think I didn't notice your restraint in your response to my letter. Your efforts are ofter overlooked and underappreciated. I congratulate you and have put this way up on your "credit" side. [...] 20133 27 38_Origin of the expression "Jerry-Built"11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Mon, 20 Jan 2003 09:28:18 -0800527_iso-8859-1 Dear Habonet

In case Noam can't find the derivation to the expression "Jerry-Built" is there someone else out there who can help me. I meant no offence, and apologise in advance to anyone that was inadvertently offended.

Thanks

Steve

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 20161 31 6_Summit11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Mon, 20 Jan 2003 09:36:19 -0800443_iso-8859-1 Dear Habonet

What about the idea of a summit on the issues that have enflamed (and inflamed) Habonet over these last couple of years? I have a hunch we'd find that the "warring factions" are not all that disparit in their outlook, and that perhaps meeting face to face would show the human sides of Steve, Dennis, Sam, Richard, Noam, Pearl, Perle, Judy, etc. Who knows? Perhaps something practicle could come out of it. [...] 20193 103 48_Re: Israel's Safety and Peace in the Middle East11_Noam Stopak20_nstopak@orionsci.com31_Mon, 20 Jan 2003 12:38:15 -0500533_us-ascii Steve,

"Jerry" was a term used, primarily by the British, to refer to our friends the Germans during their more peaceful moments in the last century. My dictionary indicates that the phrase "jerry-built" goes back to 1869, so it appears I was mistaken in my assumption that there was a relationship between these meanings. I retract the portion of my message which preceeds the phrase "I believe your attack on Richard to be libelous...". I believe the rest stands on its own. I hope you will accept my apology. [...] 20297 38 9_Hindsight0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Mon, 20 Jan 2003 12:50:36 EST638_US-ASCII It is very easy to dream, concoct, and condemn when one is looking back at a history which we did not live. The bottom line in the whole thing- and I don't mean to "oversimplify" but- there has been a lack of visionary leaders who care about thier people and their behavior in the global world of the 2000's. We have hunger, aids, destruction, hate, anti-semistism, poverty, unemployment, homelessness, illnesses, plagues, bizarre weather patterns, endangered species,...and yet, we still push forward with digital cameras and sporty SUV's and the Golden Globes;restaurants still throw out enough food to feed millions, and [...] 20336 21 10_Re: Summit0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Mon, 20 Jan 2003 13:57:33 EST485_US-ASCII I like this idea beacause it is doing something. Perhaps we could initiaite some kind of social action also..But let's not conflict with the June kumsitz- assuming we are all still around and the war has ended--sue

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 20358 20 10_Re: Summit0_13_JLCAA@aol.com29_Mon, 20 Jan 2003 14:47:57 EST513_US-ASCII Personally, I prefer Achziv. Avi

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/

MyJewishLearning.com, The Personal Gateway to Jewish Exploration Officially launches: http://MyJewishLearning.com/index.htm?source=shamash ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 20379 46 10_Re: Summit0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com29_Mon, 20 Jan 2003 15:17:54 EST220_US-ASCII In a message dated 1/20/03 2:48:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, JLCAA@aol.com writes:



> Personally, I prefer Achziv. > Avi >

I prefer the real chosen land, the real land of paradise, Amsterdam 20426 30 10_Re: Summit11_Noam Stopak20_nstopak@orionsci.com31_Mon, 20 Jan 2003 15:24:08 -0500415_us-ascii Richardrdsmith@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 1/20/03 2:48:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, JLCAA@aol.com writes: > >> Personally, I prefer Achziv. >> Avi > > I prefer the real chosen land, the real land of paradise, Amsterdam

That works for me, and is perhaps closer to neutral territory, but Steve expressed a preference for a warm climate so he wouldn't have to wear long sleeves... [...] 20457 48 10_Re: Summit0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com29_Mon, 20 Jan 2003 15:36:22 EST356_US-ASCII In a message dated 1/20/03 3:24:53 PM Eastern Standard Time, nstopak@orionsci.com writes:



> That works for me, and is perhaps closer to neutral territory, > but Steve expressed a preference for a warm climate so he > wouldn't have to wear long sleeves... >

Well then, lets meet in April and I know the best coffehouse to meet 20506 112 42_Re: Origin of the expression "Jerry-Built"11_David Ferri26_david-ferri@wordmaster.com31_Mon, 20 Jan 2003 14:43:46 -0600368_us-ascii At 9:28 -0800 1/20/03, Steve Klein wrote: >Dear Habonet > >In case Noam can't find the derivation to the expression "Jerry-Built" is >there someone else out there who can help me. I meant no offence, and >apologise in advance to anyone that was inadvertently offended. > >Thanks > >Steve

I did a google search on "Jerry-built"+expression and got: [...] 20619 74 6_Sharon0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com29_Mon, 20 Jan 2003 16:33:06 EST467_US-ASCII What would Martin Luther King think of the situation in the Middle East today? I believe that was the question.

I repeat what I said over a year ago on the form that the greatest shame of the past forty years is that the Palestinians didn't take a page from King's book and choose civil disobedience as their form of protest. If they did, I firmly believe, there would be a Palestinian State today. I believe Cooper disagreed when I stated that. [...] 20694 43 10_Re: Sharon11_Noam Stopak20_nstopak@orionsci.com31_Mon, 20 Jan 2003 16:57:09 -0500524_us-ascii Hi Richard,

Richardrdsmith@aol.com wrote:

> What would Martin Luther King think of the situation in the Middle East today? I believe that was the question. > > I repeat what I said over a year ago on the form that the greatest shame of the past forty years is that the Palestinians didn't take a page from King's book and choose civil disobedience as their form of protest. If they did, I firmly believe, there would be a Palestinian State today. I believe Cooper disagreed when I stated that. > [...] 20738 44 10_Re: Sharon0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com29_Mon, 20 Jan 2003 17:10:47 EST238_US-ASCII In a message dated 1/20/03 4:57:49 PM Eastern Standard Time, nstopak@orionsci.com writes:



> Did Brian nominate a different, greater shame? >

No, he wasn't as sure as I was that that tactic would have worked. 20783 27 10_Re: Sharon0_18_Brianscoop@aol.com31_Mon, 20 Jan 2003 21:30:11 -0500363_iso-8859-1 In a message dated 1/20/2003 4:33:06 PM Eastern Standard Time, Richardrdsmith writes:

> If they did, I firmly believe, there would be a Palestinian > State today. I believe Cooper disagreed when I stated > that.

Did I? I don't recall. If so, I recant. I agree with you, and with the rest of your email about Sharon and King as well. [...] 20811 38 34_So ridiculous you could cry/laugh?7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Mon, 20 Jan 2003 21:42:51 +0200346_iso-8859-1 sent to me by a friend.... so ridiculous it left me speechless. pearl (Dennis, do you remember Jonathan from Buffalo?)

The following news update (from the Ha'aretz Daily Newspaper website, Monday, Jan. 20, 2003), would be ridiculous if it weren't so indicative of an endemic and perhaps ineradicable Arab hatred of Israel: [...] 20850 23 7_Apology11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Tue, 21 Jan 2003 06:17:13 -0800525_iso-8859-1 Noam

Apology accepted.

Steve

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/

MyJewishLearning.com, The Personal Gateway to Jewish Exploration Officially launches: http://MyJewishLearning.com/index.htm?source=shamash ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 20874 42 23_Re: Dr. King and Israel0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com29_Tue, 21 Jan 2003 16:22:54 EST550_US-ASCII I just got finished reading MLK's story in parting the waters. He was and embattled figured who struggled just to keep his movement going. He was not a hero to all "Negoes" in his time and he got into lots of conflicts. What is most shameful is the way the FBI wiretapped his home and office trying to prove he was a communist. What is incredible is the terrible violence that was done by mobs in Birmingham and Montgomery. I would like to think that MLK's non violence got gains for his movement. But it is sitll unbelievable how many [...] 20917 384 18_Interesting letter0_14_HESHIG@aol.com29_Tue, 21 Jan 2003 19:38:06 EST608_UTF-8 Open Letter to David A. Harris, Executive Director, American Jewish Committee

by

Rabbi John D. Rayner, London, England

Dear Mr Harris,

You don't know me, so let me explain that I am a retired rabbi living in London, England, and have been a Zionist since my childhood in Nazi Germany.

What prompts me to write is that a friend and colleague has kindly sent me a copy of your ten-page 'Letter from One Jew to Another' of October 29, 2002. It is a brilliant piece of sustained rhetoric, which expresses as powerfully as anything I have read the currently dominant [...] 21302 434 22_Re: Interesting letter8_molieric25_molieric@netvision.net.il31_Wed, 22 Jan 2003 11:19:31 +0200591_UTF-8 Dear Rabbi Rayner,

I would like to express my opinion of your letter to David A. Harris. I read it with great interest, and found many points to agree with, especially concerning Israel's behavior pattern in the "Peace" process, which have been going on since 1967.

I have lived in Israel since 1953. I innocently believed that we were a People who wanted to re-establish the homeland of our forefathers. I also thought that we belived in what is written in our Bible about respecting the "stranger" within our midst i.e., the non Jew and learning to live with him. [...] 21737 1550 49_FW: Settling the Settlement Issue Now and Forever11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Wed, 22 Jan 2003 10:32:36 -0800390_iso-8859-1 Fellow Habonetters

I am NOT sending this along to once again enfuriate Richard and Noam's group. I swear. If I come across an article that makes brilliant sense to me, I like to pass it along. This is one of the best, in my opinion. IN MY OPINION. (Repeated to avoid the usual accusations that I put this stuff up on the board so that disagreers will go apoplectic.) [...] 23288 422 22_RE: Interesting letter11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Wed, 22 Jan 2003 10:56:19 -0800551_UTF-8 Rabbi Rayner is entitled to his opinions, of course.

However, could someone of sound mind and body please explain to me what level of evidence would link Arafat with terrorism for Rabbi Rayner? A certified, notarised, unretouched analog photograph of Arafat personally sticking a sword into a Jewish baby. But then, how would we know it was Jewish? No, how would we know it's a baby, and not a small person set up by people who just want us to think that Arafat is a mean person? How would we be able to tell if it was a real sword? [...] 23711 39 42_Re: Origin of the expression "Jerry-Built"0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Wed, 22 Jan 2003 17:08:36 EST606_US-ASCII I believe the expression is actually jury-rigged not Jerry-built. Jerry was an English slang term for the Germans in WWII. Gerry-built would imply to some, something of German construction, and raises the specter of the fine German engineering that went into the construction of the death camps and all the elements of the "final solution." Jury-rigged on the other hand is a nautical term for something made for temporary (emergency) use on a boat. I suppose would could also be thinking of Jewry-rigged which might be a reference to the Sharon strategy for the election. It might also be a [...] 23751 34 13_Re: Hindsight0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Wed, 22 Jan 2003 17:18:56 EST590_US-ASCII Dear Sue, With the greatest respect for your view, and fully recognizing my own proclivity for seeing the glass tipped over and draining out the last drops of hope, let me say that there is a sound case to be made for these being the best times the world has ever known. More people have freedom of movement, a say in their government, freedom from unchecked acts of violence and intimidation, access to science based health care, time and energy to other things than meet their minimum requirements for food and shelter, access to education, freedom of religion, the ability [...] 23786 21 10_Re: Summit0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Wed, 22 Jan 2003 17:20:37 EST573_US-ASCII I assume we're talking here of Amsterdam, the Paris of the Hudson, just above Albany? Dennis

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/

MyJewishLearning.com, The Personal Gateway to Jewish Exploration Officially launches: http://MyJewishLearning.com/index.htm?source=shamash ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 23808 23 38_Re: So ridiculous you could cry/laugh?0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Wed, 22 Jan 2003 17:25:10 EST589_US-ASCII Pearl, I'm afraid I don't remember Jonathan. The article is a definite laugh out-loud though. Thanks, Dennis

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/

MyJewishLearning.com, The Personal Gateway to Jewish Exploration Officially launches: http://MyJewishLearning.com/index.htm?source=shamash ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 23832 32 53_Re: FW: Settling the Settlement Issue Now and Forever0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Wed, 22 Jan 2003 18:01:43 EST399_US-ASCII Dear Steve,

I'm embarrassed. He's said it much better than any of my numerous attempts to say the same thing. The problem with Sharon (No doubt there are many) is that he's all about subterfuge, rather than just making the case for annexation of the WB and Gaza and transfer (sorry, ethnic cleansing) of the Arab population to Jordan and Egypt, or wherever else they came from. [...] 23865 49 10_Re: Summit0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com29_Wed, 22 Jan 2003 18:22:55 EST242_US-ASCII In a message dated 1/22/03 5:21:53 PM Eastern Standard Time, DLerner569@aol.com writes:



> I assume we're talking here of Amsterdam, the Paris of the Hudson, just > above > Albany? > Dennis >

U assume incorrectly 23915 20 10_Re: Summit0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Wed, 22 Jan 2003 18:33:53 EST492_US-ASCII Dam. Dennis

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/

MyJewishLearning.com, The Personal Gateway to Jewish Exploration Officially launches: http://MyJewishLearning.com/index.htm?source=shamash ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 23936 28 13_Re: Hindsight0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Wed, 22 Jan 2003 19:19:54 EST579_US-ASCII Dear Dennis- While what you said may be true, the numbers of starving and hungry have also increased. My sister is working on a hunger project and the number of people who die daily from starvation and malnutrition are staggering. In a global society, we need to find a way to distribute food, clothing and housing more efficiently. There is no real practical reason for homelessness, hunger, and poverty. It seems absurd that some few people have too much money to spend in ten lifetimes, while children and others have no food. I admit to my naivite- but I still [...] 23965 24 10_Re: Summit0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Wed, 22 Jan 2003 19:22:36 EST621_US-ASCII

In a message dated 1/22/03 3:37:39 PM, DLerner569@aol.com writes:

<< Dam. >>

Amster.....(was that intentional?)--susie

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/

MyJewishLearning.com, The Personal Gateway to Jewish Exploration Officially launches: http://MyJewishLearning.com/index.htm?source=shamash ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 23990 104 10_RE: Summit11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Wed, 22 Jan 2003 22:41:11 -0800591_us-ascii Whatcha got in mind?

Steve

ps I have some long-sleeved shirts. -----Original Message----- From: owner-habonet@shamash.org [mailto:owner-habonet@shamash.org]On Behalf Of Richardrdsmith@aol.com Sent: Monday, January 20, 2003 12:36 PM To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: Re: Summit



In a message dated 1/20/03 3:24:53 PM Eastern Standard Time, nstopak@orionsci.com writes:





That works for me, and is perhaps closer to neutral territory, but Steve expressed a preference for a warm climate so he wouldn't have to wear long sleeves... [...] 24095 46 13_Re: Hindsight0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Thu, 23 Jan 2003 08:06:47 EST207_US-ASCII In a message dated 1/22/2003 7:20:36 PM Eastern Standard Time, LiberHawke@aol.com writes:



> I still believe in the socialist ideals we were taught as youth

Sue, Me, too! Dennis 24142 209 45_Against Muslim anti-semitism, written by Arab7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Thu, 23 Jan 2003 08:17:04 +0200421_windows-1255 The Problem Of Muslim Anti-SemitismThis is such a positive article, you'd think the writer , an American Arab, works for the anti-defamation league or HonestReporting or Israeli government! Very interesting -- hope the right people read it. pps

From: Jonathan D. Safren









The Problem Of Muslim Anti-Semitism By Irfan Khawaja Pakistan Today | January 22, 2003 [...] 24352 60 20_Arafat, the murderer7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Thu, 23 Jan 2003 08:26:49 +0200547_windows-1255 Steve, your letter reminded me of a book I once read, in Hebrew, written by Israel's premier Arab affairs correspondent, Ehud Ya'ari, who comments on Arab affairs on Israeli TV news, that Arafat personally murdered a 15 year old boy in a homosexual orgy. (I must have read this book 30 years ago -- it is not recent -- but I was sufficiently shocked to remember it.) He once told us in a public lecture that when Arafat was allowed back in to Aza after Oslo, he asked for permission to bring with him one of his deputies who was [...] 24413 47 22_Re: Interesting letter7_jzatkin26_jzatkin@public2.bta.net.cn31_Thu, 23 Jan 2003 21:36:19 +0800357_UTF-8 Chevre,

I come out of lurkdom to state categorically that (imho) Heshi's "Interesting Letter" provides the most cogent analysis of the causes which have lead to the current situation and possible soultions that I have thus far read on Habonet.

Thank you for posting it (and so many previous a propos articles) and PLEASE continue!! [...] 24461 57 42_Re: Origin of the expression "Jerry-Built"13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il31_Thu, 23 Jan 2003 18:09:14 +0200613_iso-8859-1 According to the Phrase Finder (http://www.phrasefinder.co.uk/) on "jerry-built":

Meaning Built in a makeshift and insubstantial manner to make a quick profit on a sale. Origin The phrase has been around since at least 1869. More recently jerry builders are more likely to be called cowboy builders or just cowboys. The derivation is unclear although there are many candidate explanations. 1. It is derived from the city of Jericho (which fell down). 2. From the Romany word for excrement - gerry. 3. From jerrymumble - meaning to knock about. 4. >From 'Jerry Sneak' - a henpecked husband. [...] 24519 32 42_Re: Origin of the expression "Jerry-Built"11_Noam Stopak20_nstopak@orionsci.com31_Thu, 23 Jan 2003 11:18:39 -0500329_us-ascii Jonathan Baum wrote:

> ... > Don't you people know how to search the WWW? Why guess? > > Take care all, Jon

Thanks for the citations Jon, but I have to wonder - do you really think the WWW is a definitive reference?

Seems ripe for the sort if nonsense that George Orwell wrote about in 1984... [...] 24552 50 42_Re: Origin of the expression "Jerry-Built"13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il31_Thu, 23 Jan 2003 18:46:49 +0200207_iso-8859-1 For some things, the web is better than guessing. One of the sites I mentioned sites the Oxford English Dictionary. I could have included some other sources. When in doubt, LOOK IT UP. Jon

24603 29 42_Re: Origin of the expression "Jerry-Built"11_Noam Stopak20_nstopak@orionsci.com31_Thu, 23 Jan 2003 11:57:30 -0500328_us-ascii

I agree the OED is an excellent source. I was just worried you were losing the skepticism I've grown to love and respect.

There is a difference between stating something that one learned in error and guessing. And many people have gone to reliable references once the original error was challenged. [...] 24633 73 42_Re: Origin of the expression "Jerry-Built"13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il31_Thu, 23 Jan 2003 19:24:53 +0200561_iso-8859-1 The truth is, Noam, is that I have to confront this question every day. My job in our library web site is providing the online portion of bibliographies and pure information brokering, so I'm constantly having to question the validity of various online sources. A healthy skepticism is an asset in this sort of gig. I'll be the first to admit that there's an awful lot of junk out there on the WWW, along with some truly valuable items (such as The Onion or pictures of Anna Kournikova). I write a weekly column of web site reviews for our alon [...] 24707 29 42_Re: Origin of the expression "Jerry-Built"11_Noam Stopak20_nstopak@orionsci.com31_Thu, 23 Jan 2003 12:35:40 -0500611_us-ascii Hi Jon,

Didn't think I was arguing? I thought I was praising your jaundiced eye.

I work with web related software for libraries, most notably ScienceServer which is a solution for libraries who want to receive journal content and host it on local intranets rather than relying on services like Elsevier's ScienceDirect Online or Wiley Interscience etc. I'd be interested in your views on the various sites for Scientific, Technical and Medical info - pointers to publically accessible reviews welcome (and yes I'll take a look at Netsurfer's Digest's site - I'm not always lazy :-). [...] 24737 841 31_FW: Join the Alumni association11_Omri Kelmer24_shaliach@habonimdror.org31_Thu, 23 Jan 2003 13:07:28 -0500499_windows-1255

To all Bogrei Machom Lemadrichei Chul:



2003–01–12













Are you a graduate of the Machon L'madrichim ?

The Institute for Jewish Leaders from Abroad was established in 1946 and has trained more then 11,000 students from all over the world since its establishment .

If you are part of this great educational institute, and if you still have great memories from your time at the Machon , join us . [...] 25579 90 19_Interesting article0_14_HESHIG@aol.com29_Thu, 23 Jan 2003 15:54:44 EST379_US-ASCII Standing on the Dead By Marc Ash

Wednesday 22 January 2003

"What luck for the rulers that men do not think." --Adolf Hitler

In October of 1942, under the Trading With the Enemy Act, the U.S. government halted operations at New York's Union Banking Corporation. A bank official was charged with "Running Nazi front groups in the Untied States." [...] 25670 97 43_Fwd: Origin of the expression "Jerry-Built"0_15_Emabear@aol.com29_Thu, 23 Jan 2003 15:59:29 EST208_US-ASCII

Dear Noam and Jon, I want to tell you how impressed I am with your knowlege of the Web. Always thought Habonudniks were "smarter than your average bear". Ellen Mayers Ginsburg



25768 44 42_Re: Origin of the expression "Jerry-Built"0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com29_Thu, 23 Jan 2003 16:15:07 EST284_US-ASCII In a message dated 1/23/03 11:19:07 AM Eastern Standard Time, nstopak@orionsci.com writes:



> Seems ripe for the sort if nonsense that George Orwell wrote about in 1984... >

Silly Noam, George Orwell was quite dead and no longer writing anything in 1984. 25813 23 24_For Washington DC chevre0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Thu, 23 Jan 2003 17:49:11 EST374_US-ASCII Hi- The goverment of Spain is interested in bringing over a travelling exhibit called "Sfarad- memories of a Lost Land" and are looking for a cultural venue ( not the Holocaust Museum) in which to display this. The President of Spain will be in attendance. If anyone knows of a possible venue- please email me privately- (liberhawke@aol.com)- Thanks--sue(sie) [...] 25837 44 26_Machaneh Bonim-Hunter-197122_Marjorie Hanft Martone12_cfmh@eiu.edu31_Thu, 23 Jan 2003 17:02:05 -0700533_us-ascii Looking out there for anyone who might still be harboring a photo like the one I have-Machaneh Bonim-Hunter, NY, 1971. Mendy from Philly is brandishing a toy rifle and I can identify probably 90% of the people in the photo to this day. From time to time, over the years, I have had flashes of nostalgia, but have only had contact with a few of the folks I knew at Mosh (machaneh in Annapolis). If you knew me back then, you probably knew me as "Margie Hanft." I would love to be in contact with anyone from that era of [...] 25882 22 23_Re: Interesting article0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Thu, 23 Jan 2003 18:08:16 EST465_US-ASCII A friend claims to know a classmate of GW's and reports that he and his frat mates used to go around beating up Jewish students. You know, as an expression of youthful energy and bigotry. Dennis

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 25905 53 23_Re: Interesting article0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com29_Thu, 23 Jan 2003 18:33:12 EST322_US-ASCII In a message dated 1/23/03 6:09:20 PM Eastern Standard Time, DLerner569@aol.com writes:



> A friend claims to know a classmate of GW's and reports that he and his frat > mates used to go around beating up Jewish students. You know, as an > expression of youthful energy and bigotry. > Dennis > [...] 25959 41 23_Re: Interesting article13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Thu, 23 Jan 2003 18:48:37 -0500603_us-ascii Dear Dennis,

Do you mean George W Bush? That is really a horrible rumor and a very serious allegation I know many many people who were at Yale while George W was there--including my husband-- and I live in DC (the international capital for rumors) and I have never heard anything of the sort. Our current president was there at a time when Yale was changing from primarily educating members of the autocracy to primarily educating members of the meritocracy and there were certainly tensions between one group and the other. That is very different from "beating up Jewish students. [...] 26001 364 43_An ambivalent loyalty/ www.haaretzdaily.com11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org31_Thu, 23 Jan 2003 20:51:51 -0600544_us-ascii An ambivalent loyalty

Contrary to the contention of many Jewish organizational leaders, the majority of American Jews have experienced little or no rise in attachment to Israel as a result of the violent events of the last two years

By Steven M. Cohen

Two years of violence in Israel and the territories have hardened American Jews' attitudes toward the Palestinians, with strong majorities backing the Sharon government's tough anti-terrorist measures and opposing U.S. pressure to moderate Israeli actions. [...] 26366 82 13_Re: Hindsight7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Thu, 23 Jan 2003 17:35:43 +0200359_iso-8859-1 Dennis and Sue,

Don't you think the socialist ideals are really also Jewish ideals? Perhaps, it would be correct to say we were raised on Jewish ideals that also happened to be socialist. pearl ----- Original Message ----- From: DLerner569@aol.com To: habonet@shamash.org Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2003 3:06 PM Subject: Re: Hindsight [...] 26449 34 13_Re: Hindsight11_Noam Stopak20_nstopak@orionsci.com31_Fri, 24 Jan 2003 08:00:44 -0500522_us-ascii Pearl,

I agree. What did Sue say to make you think she believes otherwise?

Shabbat Shalom,

Noam

Skolnik wrote:

> Dennis and Sue, Don't you think the socialist ideals are really also Jewish ideals? Perhaps, it would be correct to say we were raised on Jewish ideals that also happened to be socialist. pearl > > In a message dated 1/22/2003 7:20:36 PM Eastern Standard Time, LiberHawke@aol.com writes: > > > I still believe in the socialist ideals we were taught as youth > [...] 26484 31 22_Re: Interesting letter0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com29_Fri, 24 Jan 2003 08:21:07 EST31_US-ASCII very thoughtful letter 26516 31 13_Re: Hindsight0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Fri, 24 Jan 2003 09:40:01 EST547_US-ASCII Pearl, I typically think of my ideals as Jewish rather than socialist. I would say there are substantial overlaps, as one would expect from any expression of idealism. The issue is not how we wish the world would be, or how much we try to live our lives in sync with those ideals, but how to get those other folks to forego the opportunism created by adherence to ideals. Its about the many and the few. If the many follow the rules then the few can break them and the system survives, even thrives. If the condition is reversed and [...] 26548 33 23_Re: Interesting article0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Fri, 24 Jan 2003 09:53:43 EST506_US-ASCII Noam, I agree, I heard the story from a very stable principled friend, who does not indulge in such loose talk. I have told no one what he told me in the six months or so since he told me. Since the article about Prescott Bush seemed to be in the same mold, I posted what I had been told as just that - what I had been told. I am pleased that "netters" in a position to know more directly than I the truth or falseness of the story have come forward here. As for feelings and attitudes about [...] 26582 43 23_Re: Interesting article11_Noam Stopak20_nstopak@orionsci.com31_Fri, 24 Jan 2003 09:57:48 -0500514_us-ascii



DLerner569@aol.com wrote:

> Noam, > I agree, I heard the story from a very stable principled friend, who does not > indulge in such loose talk. I have told no one what he told me in the six > months or so since he told me. Since the article about Prescott Bush seemed > to be in the same mold, I posted what I had been told as just that - what I > had been told. I am pleased that "netters" in a position to know more > directly than I the truth or falseness of the story have [...] 26626 24 23_Re: Interesting article0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Fri, 24 Jan 2003 10:20:49 EST471_US-ASCII Noam, I understand your confusion. The posting should have been addressed to Richard and was in response to the posting on the evils of spreading gossip on the WEB. Sorry for the inconvenience. Dennis

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 26651 131 13_Re: Hindsight8_molieric25_molieric@netvision.net.il31_Fri, 24 Jan 2003 17:35:16 +0200424_iso-8859-1 Dear Dennis and Sue,

Although I'm much older than you, I'm more of a believer in Social Justice and less of Socialism.

I've lived all my adult years in Israel either in kibbutzim or, as present, in a moshav shitufi. Socialism is wonderful as long as everyone pulls his weight. It's when the society allows the parasite to worm it's way into it's circle that disillusionment creeps it's way in. [...] 26783 34 13_Re: Hindsight0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Fri, 24 Jan 2003 11:25:15 EST378_US-ASCII The effect of the few, or the parasite as you call it, is by their success to promote others following suit, i.e., becoming parasites, too. While a few can be tolerated, many cannot, and the system collapses. Socialism is an ideal, a beautiful, if unrealizable idea, except for short periods of time, particularly in response to crisis. It is inherently unstable. [...] 26818 30 13_Re: Hindsight0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Fri, 24 Jan 2003 13:23:56 EST583_US-ASCII To Mollie and Pearl- I think it is a fallacy to pidgeonhole Judaism, socialism, and social justice into three separate catgories and pretnd this one or that one is more "correct." The truth is that these values overlap and complement each other. A short story from college: I quit being a music major when I had a huge fight with the head of the department over Bach and emotions. He tried to pidgeonhole Baroque music as being devoid fo "romanticism" and feelings...and I asked him about the St. Matthew or John Passions of the Four Seasons (Vivaldi) or Bach's violin [...] 26849 34 23_Re: Interesting article11_Noam Stopak20_nstopak@orionsci.com31_Fri, 24 Jan 2003 16:10:17 -0500608_us-ascii DLerner569@aol.com wrote:

> Noam, > I understand your confusion. The posting should have been addressed to > Richard and was in response to the posting on the evils of spreading gossip > on the WEB. > Sorry for the inconvenience. > Dennis

Dennis,

I think the confusion is yours :-)

Shabbat Shalom,

Noam

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 26884 21 23_Re: Interesting article0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Fri, 24 Jan 2003 16:19:24 EST501_US-ASCII Noam, Righto. Dennis

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/

MyJewishLearning.com, The Personal Gateway to Jewish Exploration Officially launches: http://MyJewishLearning.com/index.htm?source=shamash ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 26906 45 13_Re: Hindsight13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Fri, 24 Jan 2003 16:39:27 -0500627_us-ascii Dear Dennis,

This is well worked out. Contact your local ethical society or local Jewish Humanist congregation.

Shabbat shalom, Judy

DLerner569@aol.com wrote:

> The effect of the few, or the parasite as you call it, is by their success to > promote others following suit, i.e., becoming parasites, too. While a few > can be tolerated, many cannot, and the system collapses. Socialism is an > ideal, a beautiful, if unrealizable idea, except for short periods of time, > particularly in response to crisis. It is inherently unstable. > > I have been trying for some minutes now to cast [...] 26952 43 13_Re: Hindsight0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com29_Fri, 24 Jan 2003 17:40:28 EST254_US-ASCII In a message dated 1/24/03 4:36:34 PM Eastern Standard Time, gelman@erols.com writes:



> Contact your local ethical society

I was raised in a "ethical" household. Did you know that the Ethical Society was founded by a rabbi? 26996 59 22_Parasites and eutopia*4_Meir21_meir_h@maccabi.org.il31_Sat, 25 Jan 2003 00:47:39 +0200505_windows-1255 I'm behind in my reading, but I wanted to comment about this trend of though.

1. After some thinking about the subject I've come to the conclusion that there can be NO parasites in a truly socialistic society. EVERYONE DOES contribute what they CAN. They're ability to contribute is NOT ONLY their physical ability, but ALSO their intellectual ability and their emotional ability. What we have to find is how to work with EVERYONE so that we can motivate them to contribute more. [...] 27056 40 26_Re: Parasites and eutopia*0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Fri, 24 Jan 2003 22:28:14 EST600_US-ASCII Dear Mier, You have clarified things for me. For millennia Jews, not all certainly, but many, have been putting ethical considerations of fairness and justice and balance and humanism into practice and into the circling breezes of society. Jews have done that out of a sense that it is the right thing, out of a sense of duty and obligation; sometimes to God and sometimes to our fellow human beings. Jews have done that even though there has not only been no external recognition or reward for it, but persecution, derision, slander, and deprivation of the freedoms and options common [...] 27097 36 13_Re: Hindsight13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Fri, 24 Jan 2003 23:06:22 -0500 27134 110 30_Some thoughts on the elections13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il31_Sat, 25 Jan 2003 09:30:28 +0200636_windows-1255

It's worth noting that according to the latest polls, the Labor Party may actually drop down as low as 16-17 seats, less, perhaps, than Shinui. Given the demographics of an inevitable Labor decline - "For every gefilte-fish eater who dies, 3 homous eaters are born" - and their idiotic lack of approach to the new and huge Russian community (now Israel's largest ethnic group), one can only gape in awe at the party's blunders. First by participating in the national unity government, blurring their differences with the Likud and supporting Sharon's (albeit popular) policies; in many cases carrying them out [...] 27245 488 37_Fwd:Pre-election voices worth noting.11_Ezra Gordon12_egor@uic.edu31_Sat, 25 Jan 2003 16:58:20 -0600578_iso-8859-1







> >> >> “ELECTIVE AFFINITIES / REALITY BITES”: >> VOICES FROM THE ISRAELI LEFT >> Ari Shavit >> Ha’aretz, January 10, 2003 >> >> Writers Amos Oz and David Grossman, two of the most prominent members of the >> Israeli peace camp, meet for a serious conversation about the state of the >> nation and the situation of the left in particular… >> >> …Amos Oz receives his guests in a warm winter sweater and a warm >> embrace…Since closing the chapter on his parents in his last book but one >> ["A Story of Love and Darkness"], he is [...] 27734 31 30_Re: Machaneh Bonim-Hunter-19710_12_AZMD@aol.com29_Sat, 25 Jan 2003 21:17:57 EST69_US-ASCII where were you from? me, i'm from Phila and went to Galil az 27766 62 30_Re: Machaneh Bonim-Hunter-19719_Ben-Moshe18_boazjana@shani.net31_Sun, 26 Jan 2003 15:43:13 +0200641_us-ascii Marjorie, I'd love some contact "away from the autism lists" if you're interested. That invitation goes as well for renewing contact with the few other families dealing with disabled children that I heard from via habonet some years back. Unfortunately I lost contact and email addresses between various computer disasters and some rough health periods my son was going through. Noam doesn't fit HFA, and he's only 7 1/2. He's more an atypical vacillating PDD/SID, with wide scatter on functionality, and multidisabled, all due to a mitochondrial encephalomyopathy. But I'd certainly appreciate hearing about your experiences. [...] 27829 29 10_Re: Sharon9_Ben-Moshe18_boazjana@shani.net31_Sun, 26 Jan 2003 15:54:09 +0200570_us-ascii At 16:33 20/01/03 -0500, you wrote:

>No offense meant to anyone except Sharon and those who will elect him.



Ok, so just checking- given the voting changes, would this apply to anyone who's not voting Labor?

Sort-of-sincerely, Ben-Moshe's (a household in turmoil)



------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 27859 60 10_Re: Sharon0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com29_Sun, 26 Jan 2003 10:02:43 EST412_US-ASCII In a message dated 1/26/03 9:15:16 AM Eastern Standard Time, boazjana@shani.net writes:



> Ok, so just checking- given the voting changes, would this apply to anyone > who's not voting Labor? > > Sort-of-sincerely, > Ben-Moshe's (a household in turmoil) >

No, just meant to anyone who is voting for Sharon, a religious party or any other political party with which i disagree. [...] 27920 202 13_Jews in space13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il31_Sun, 26 Jan 2003 17:58:49 +0200381_windows-1255 All reports indicate that Col. Ilan Ramon, Israel's first astronaut, is doing fine in his mission on the American space shuttle. If you're not familiar with his picture or c.v., you can read about him at http://www.idf.il/newsite/english/ilanramon.stm .

This raises the question: what would a shuttle flight be like if ALL of the astronauts were Israelis? [...] 28123 264 136_FW: this is from a friend of mine who did the research I havealready sent you the Samsung list-now lets deal with the collaboratorRabbi!11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Sun, 26 Jan 2003 08:55:24 -0800469_iso-8859-1 FW: this is from a friend of mine who did the research I have already sent you the Samsung list-now lets deal with the collaborator Rabbi! -----Original Message----- From: Dr. Maxine R. Newman [mailto:sahvta@socal.rr.com] Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2003 1:20 AM To: Batya Lewton; Marcia Plager; Steven Klein Subject: FW: this is from a friend of mine who did the research I havealready sent you the Samsung list-now lets deal with the collaboratorRabbi! [...] 28388 53 13_Re: Hindsight7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Sat, 25 Jan 2003 19:19:50 +0200432_iso-8859-1 noam, I didn't mean to imply that anyone believes otherwise. I tried to make the point that what we call socialist ideals are Jewish based ideals, and as Jews we should stress the Jewish aspect of our beliefs rather than adopt the others'. shavua tov, pearl ----- Original Message ----- From: Noam Stopak To: Sent: Friday, January 24, 2003 3:00 PM Subject: Re: Hindsight [...] 28442 48 13_Re: Hindsight7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Sat, 25 Jan 2003 19:16:59 +0200611_iso-8859-1 excellent analysis of the problem. shavua tov, pearl

----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, January 24, 2003 4:40 PM Subject: Re: Hindsight



> Pearl, > I typically think of my ideals as Jewish rather than socialist. I would say > there are substantial overlaps, as one would expect from any expression of > idealism. The issue is not how we wish the world would be, or how much we > try to live our lives in sync with those ideals, but how to get those other > folks to forego the opportunism created by adherence to [...] 28491 176 13_Re: Hindsight7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Sat, 25 Jan 2003 19:00:42 +0200532_iso-8859-1 Mollie, how right you are! After living in a socialist community inhabited by one particular parasite, after 7 years I left. I could not see how he was allowed to buy a new $100,000 truck, completely refurnish his home, etc., and yet not pay a penny towards his kupat cholim or village taxes. I had to pay my share of his kupat cholim and taxes, because he refused. When I left I had to pay tens of thousands of shekels to the village for loans he and a few other parasites took out and never paid back. That was my [...] 28668 44 13_Re: Hindsight0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com29_Sun, 26 Jan 2003 15:59:35 EST343_US-ASCII In a message dated 1/26/03 3:07:17 PM Eastern Standard Time, skolnik@netvision.net.il writes:



> After that experience I understood that the only way socialism can succeed >

If that was true then kibbutz kids would make great socialists and yet, correct me if I am wrong, they are leaving the kibbutzim in droves. 28713 34 53_Re: FW: Settling the Settlement Issue Now and Forever13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Sun, 26 Jan 2003 20:04:17 -0500 28748 43 53_Re: FW: Settling the Settlement Issue Now and Forever0_18_Brianscoop@aol.com29_Sun, 26 Jan 2003 22:34:04 EST120_US-ASCII > Who exactly is in "Richard and Noam's group"?

I am. If they'll have me.

--brian



28792 76 16_Kibbutz children4_Meir21_meir_h@maccabi.org.il31_Mon, 27 Jan 2003 06:24:51 +0200457_windows-1255 1. Kibbutz children were on the main NOT educated to Socialism. The idea was that they would learn about if from the society. And of course they learned mainly what was wrong with Socialism.

2. I disagree that education is the answer. Before we can educate we have to be SURE of what we want. Education teaches mainly the values of the past. We haven't seen educational systems that prepare the pupils for the values of the future. [...] 28869 248 52_Where Jewish Vision and Values Are Leading Humankind0_15_NEVETS2@aol.com29_Sun, 26 Jan 2003 23:55:46 EST493_ISO-8859-1

In a message dated 1/25/03 12:12:01 AM, Dennis writes:



> > The gradual spread of ethical values and accepted norms of good and bad > > behavior (filled as they are with wretched exceptions and collapses) > suggests > > that there is an organizing principle at work, not social entropy. What > > advantage do humans get from generally behaving in an ethical fashion? > Is > > the promise of heaven enough? This is heavy stuff, please help me lift > it. > [...] 29118 51 20_Re: Kibbutz children0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com29_Sun, 26 Jan 2003 23:58:25 EST356_US-ASCII In a message dated 1/26/03 11:22:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, meir_h@maccabi.org.il writes:



> We haven't seen educational systems that prepare the pupils for the values > of the future.

Who will decide the values of the future? How are we poor educators to know which values will be important before they are important? [...] 29170 78 20_Re: Kibbutz children0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com29_Mon, 27 Jan 2003 08:35:22 EST567_US-ASCII In a message dated 1/27/03 12:20:35 AM Eastern Standard Time, Richardrdsmith@aol.com writes:

> > Who will decide the values of the future? How are we poor educators to > know which values will be important before they are important?

________________________ The Kibbutz movement did not raise a generation of bigots and murderers. It is not likely such kind words will be said about the settler's movement. It is sad that the kibbutz movement is faltering, but we should not forget what it did to invent the best parts of Israeli culture. [...] 29249 97 19_Interesting article0_14_HESHIG@aol.com29_Mon, 27 Jan 2003 08:38:52 EST624_US-ASCII [Tom Segev is a well known Israeli historian, author and political analyst.....Eldad]

Monday, January 27, 2003 Shvat 24, 5763 Israel Time: 05:12 (GMT+2)



Trapped in delusion, with no happy ending

By Tom Segev

Last week several hundred people attended a performance of Tchaikovsky's "Eugene Onegin" at the Tel Aviv Opera House - escaping into 19th century Russian romanticism for an evening away from news of terrorism, unemployment and Saddam Hussein. The audience should also have ignored the program - inside were greetings from that famous opera connoisseur Ariel Sharon. [...] 29347 31 13_Re: Hindsight0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Mon, 27 Jan 2003 11:05:45 EST596_US-ASCII Chevre (Is this a goat's milk cheese)

In the US (and Israel), having cast off the tattered remnants of socialism (linked in the US pejoratively to Communism) in favor of an orgy of capitalism, I get the feeling that we are laying the groundwork for the rehabilitation of socialism as a strategy for the distribution of certain goods and services (like basic healthcare). This comes just at the time that capitalism is at its high arc under a conservative Republican President, Congress and Court. Does anyone else have the same sense that is some contexts it may be about to [...] 29379 54 15_Re: goat cheese11_Noam Stopak20_nstopak@orionsci.com31_Mon, 27 Jan 2003 11:16:30 -0500588_us-ascii DLerner569@aol.com wrote:

> Chevre (Is this a goat's milk cheese) > > In the US (and Israel), having cast off the tattered remnants of socialism > (linked in the US pejoratively to Communism) in favor of an orgy of > capitalism, I get the feeling that we are laying the groundwork for the > rehabilitation of socialism as a strategy for the distribution of certain > goods and services (like basic healthcare). This comes just at the time that > capitalism is at its high arc under a conservative Republican President, > Congress and Court. Does anyone else have the [...] 29434 35 12_Re: grouping11_Noam Stopak20_nstopak@orionsci.com31_Mon, 27 Jan 2003 11:27:15 -0500319_us-ascii Brianscoop@aol.com wrote:

> > Who exactly is in "Richard and Noam's group"? > > I am. If they'll have me. > > --brian >

I can't speak for Richard (we aren't a bloc, no matter what Steve K. may believe), but I take that as an early Valentine :-) You are welcome on my lifeboat anytime Brian! [...] 29470 39 23_Re: Interesting article0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Mon, 27 Jan 2003 11:32:11 EST546_US-ASCII It is my curse to see the multiple sides of issues.

I do not disagree with the assertion that Arik has no plan for peace. At the same time I think that we should not underestimate the strategic abilities of the Arabs on the other side. It is an example of the many and the few we have been talking about. Western style thinking and strategic play are the many. We understand the game and how we get to a solution somewhere around the midpoint. Arab style thinking and strategic play are the few. Their use of large lies, and [...] 29510 373 20_Fw: Fw: (no subject)8_molieric25_molieric@netvision.net.il31_Mon, 27 Jan 2003 21:41:30 +0200413_iso-8859-1 Hi All,

I do hope that the following letter will be of interest to all of you. No matter how far we sometimes think that we have distant ourselves from Judaism, it sticks to us thru thick and thin.

All the best, Mollie Marx



----- Original Message ----- From: SCHWAGER To: Undisclosed-Recipient:; Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2003 4:43 AM Subject: Fw: Fw: (no subject) [...] 29884 75 20_RE: Kibbutz children4_Meir21_meir_h@maccabi.org.il31_Mon, 27 Jan 2003 22:36:12 +0200382_windows-1255 And capitalism works ?

Educating for the values of the future is training the children to be able to recognize these values THEMSELVES, and NOT stifling them with "truths" of the past.

You're right - it's difficult, but still no reason for the stifling kind of reactionary education that exists (for those who think that education is important) IMO. [...] 29960 79 26_Re: Parasites and eutopia*8_molieric25_molieric@netvision.net.il31_Mon, 27 Jan 2003 22:34:12 +0200567_iso-8859-1 Dear Dennis,

It's never been a secret to the Jewish People that we have always been for social progress and social justice in the world. Unfortunately, these wonder qualities of ours have not made a dent in the anti-Semitic soul, where ever he may be.

Those ignorant and parasitic sick souls seem to still have a sway over too large a number of similar sick souls. Just take a look at the growing number of terrorists in the East and the West and all over the World and how they are causing havoc, and it seems with the silent agreement [...] 30040 87 13_Re: Hindsight7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Mon, 27 Jan 2003 00:21:41 +0200574_iso-8859-1 yes, they are leaving in droves. But, for very many reasons: like when any child leaves a small town to go make his fortune in the big city. What I wrote does not contradict my original statement. One can live in a socialist community only if all the others are ideologically committed to it, not, like in my moshav ovdim where they plopped down Czech and Hungarian bourgeousie and peasants into a socialist village without their having any understanding or sympathy for a socialist way of life. As a result, the whole village was corrupt and all of us with [...] 30128 46 15_Re: goat cheese0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com29_Mon, 27 Jan 2003 17:24:19 EST308_US-ASCII In a message dated 1/27/03 11:17:37 AM Eastern Standard Time, nstopak@orionsci.com writes:



> It may be that the pendulum has > reached the high point of it's arc in the Republican, unfettered > capitalist direction.

Unfettered capitalism has not existed in the U.S. since 1933. 30175 49 12_Re: grouping0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com29_Mon, 27 Jan 2003 17:25:35 EST393_US-ASCII In a message dated 1/27/03 11:28:38 AM Eastern Standard Time, nstopak@orionsci.com writes:



> I can't speak for Richard (we aren't a bloc, no matter what > Steve K. may believe), but I take that as an early Valentine :-) > You are welcome on my lifeboat anytime Brian! >

Well I won't take you. You are much too conservative, liberal and middle of the road for me. 30225 111 15_Re: goat cheese0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com29_Mon, 27 Jan 2003 17:50:03 EST489_US-ASCII

> An interesting topic Dennis. It may be that the pendulum has > reached the high point of it's arc in the Republican, unfettered > capitalist direction. I certainly hope so.



The Republcian Party has nothing to do with unfettered Capitalism. They support cronny capitalism Marcos style.

> > I think that as the numbers of people on the planet continue > to increase we need to discuss other ways of allocating > scarce resources more equitably. [...] 30337 78 13_Re: Hindsight29_Richard Steacy & Esther Cohen22_richard.steacy@gte.net31_Mon, 27 Jan 2003 19:30:20 -0500462_iso-8859-1 dennis - fyi - in case you'll choose to follow judy's suggestion - www.aeu.org - the american ethical union - i haven't been to their website, but i'm sure you'll find some interesting information...

-esther cohen washington, dc mosh 70-75+ mb 76 workshop 27 (gesher haziv)

----- Original Message ----- From: "Judith Gelman" To: Sent: Friday, January 24, 2003 4:39 PM Subject: Re: Hindsight [...] 30416 54 26_Re: Parasites and eutopia*0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Mon, 27 Jan 2003 22:43:00 EST624_US-ASCII Mollie, We've just had a whole series of postings regarding Islamic anti-Semitism. As I think about the subject generally, it seems to me that at least the origins of the phenomenon lies in Jewish rejection of the "New Covenant" ostensibly brought to us by Jesu, and the rejection of an alliance with Mohammed, recognizing the revelation of God to Mohammed. Which must have struck the true believers of these later communications from God as the ultimate in hubris. No wonder they call us stiff-necked, full of pride and arrogance. These early insults deeply undercut the credibility of these further guidance [...] 30471 28 15_Re: goat cheese0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Mon, 27 Jan 2003 22:49:07 EST622_US-ASCII Its sufficiently unfettered for my taste. It should be pretty clear that without the fetters of the SEC the markets would have failed completely long before this. Capitalism has great virtues. Among them its need and tolerance for continually evolving regulation and restructuring. Operated in a manner other than blind obeisance to the God of individual greed and opportunism, regulation is what tends to keep the few from a) becoming an oligopoly, and b) from becoming the many. We have been watching those two effects deteriorate over the last generation, to the point where the many have become the very [...] 30500 44 15_Re: goat cheese0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Mon, 27 Jan 2003 22:51:06 EST214_US-ASCII In a message dated 1/27/2003 5:51:20 PM Eastern Standard Time, Smfgrappa@aol.com writes:



> That these systems work at all is a wonder.

Like Churchill's assessment of democracy. Dennis 30545 28 13_Re: Hindsight0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Mon, 27 Jan 2003 22:57:46 EST471_US-ASCII Ester, Thank you for your comment. I hope you will note my posting re: the role of regulation in maintaining dynamic change in the membership of the few and in retarding the growth in the numbers of the few. The notion that any system is self maintaining and self correcting is to make them higher on the achievement of perfection scale than any of God's other creations which are constantly in change and subject to complex sets of interactive regulation. [...] 30574 41 20_Your anser to Mollie13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Mon, 27 Jan 2003 23:47:59 -0500551_us-ascii Dear Dennis,

Actually, Christianity represented 2 advances at the time it began--1) the separation of monotheism from cultic temple practices, which had developed into a set of indulgences not too different from what led to the reformation 1500 years later and 2) the opening of monotheism to those who were not Jews and didn't intend to become Jews. The rabbinic period following the destruction of the Temple reformed Judaism so that the problems posed by temple worship disappeared and thus #1 was short-lived as an advantage. [...] 30616 49 20_VALVES OF THE FUTURE4_Stan17_stan@inter.net.il31_Tue, 28 Jan 2003 11:23:10 +0200174_iso-8859-1 I agree with Meir, we shoud not stifle our children with the "truths" of the past. But how do we educate so that our children can recognize values for themselves ? 30666 58 15_Jewish dog tags12_Doug Greener25_ddwgreen@netvision.net.il31_Tue, 28 Jan 2003 09:24:41 +0200558_iso-8859-1 Re Mollie's article on Jewish dog tags in Saudi Arabia:

My brother was a doctor in Vietnam back in 1971. He had his travel papers ready to go back to the States, via Israel to visit us. The papers took him through India as a stop-over. Before he took off, there was some crisis brewing between India and Pakistan, and the American Army plane was re-scheduled to divert to Saudi Arabia instead. My brother was not allowed on the flight, even if he promised to stay in the airplane on the runway, because he was Jewish. He had to return [...] 30725 24 19_Re: Jewish dog tags0_12_SHX2@aol.com29_Tue, 28 Jan 2003 08:49:29 EST319_US-ASCII Maybe times change, but in 1997 the State Department sent me to Saudi Arabia as part of an arts exchange program. The Saudi visa form asked for religion. One had to fill it in to get a visa. I wrote "Jewish." No problem. They told me that "Jewish" is OK, but if you say "Atheist," they throw you in jail. [...] 30750 69 26_Re: Machon reunion address0_15_NEVETS2@aol.com29_Tue, 28 Jan 2003 09:12:33 EST565_ISO-8859-1 Chevre, Shalom

I'm not a Machon alum, but my brother is. Here's what he got back when he tried to submit his info for the Machon reunion to the address we picked up on the internet (here?) Anyone have a better address for Machon alumni?

Chaver Steve ========================================= In a message dated 1/28/03 8:43:41 AM, AwPru1 writes: > > --- The message cannot be delivered to the following address. --- > > lmachonamuta@jazo.org.il Mailbox unknown or not accepting mail. > 550 5.1.1 ... User unknown > 30820 111 30_Haaretz Are the people stupid?0_14_HESHIG@aol.com29_Tue, 28 Jan 2003 09:26:21 EST500_US-ASCII Haaretz, Tuesday, January 28, 2003 Shvat 25, 5763Israel Time: 16:00 (GMT+2)



Are the people stupid?

By Hannah Kim







It was Amram Mitzna who on Sunday revealed the same amazement that has been a constant theme in the rhetoric of the Labor Party and the left since 1977. "I am unable to break the genetic code of the Israeli voter," he said. "I see a woman on TV who has nothing to eat and no work and she says she will vote for Sharon." [...] 30932 41 26_Re: Machon reunion address0_15_Moshava@aol.com29_Tue, 28 Jan 2003 11:06:39 EST159_US-ASCII steve, there is no "l" before the address. its just MachonAmuta@jazo.org.il tammy





30974 48 24_Re: Your anser to Mollie0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Tue, 28 Jan 2003 11:18:29 EST663_US-ASCII Judy, Judy, Judy... What a wonderful synoptic response. I'm smiling and excited.

I accept this analysis completely, but it leaves me with questions/comments.



First, the cultic Temple worship isn't a development in Judaism; it comes straight from God in the Book. Leaving it behind wasn't our idea. Once the Temple was gone Judaism began its intellectual wandering, seeking to establish practices that would bring them closer to God and (applying the same processes) regulating more fairly and justly the affairs of folks. In both realms we have through a series of failures continually progressed in our search. How would this [...] 31023 40 24_Re: VALVES OF THE FUTURE0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Tue, 28 Jan 2003 11:34:28 EST592_US-ASCII I apologize for butting in. The topic under discussion here is teaching a new generation the values of socialism in a world where socialism (as we learned it) has demonstrated itself to be beyond normal human capacity to sustain. For what its worth, I see three approaches to advancing learning: The first and most common is to follow a chain of thought from its beginnings to where it is, and then to add incrementally, or branch off, the second is to experience and build based on that experience, and the third is to conceive, to process intellectually internally or through [...] 31064 44 24_Re: VALVES OF THE FUTURE13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il31_Tue, 28 Jan 2003 18:44:03 +020054_iso-8859-1 http://www.valterra.com/RV/waste_valves.htm 31109 60 34_Re: Haaretz Are the people stupid?0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Tue, 28 Jan 2003 12:10:45 EST431_US-ASCII Heshi, This is a very interesting analysis, but a little late to be of much help, no?

The belief of the poor in the dream of being one of the rich is an important component in the stability of a society. The alternative for stability is a feudal or caste system where there is no chance of change or advancement, and we know that isn't a model for economic growth, or one that matches the needs of capitalism. [...] 31170 38 24_Re: VALVES OF THE FUTURE0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Tue, 28 Jan 2003 12:56:11 EST269_US-ASCII Jon, I assume that the website reference to a toilet valve co. is a reference to the misspelling of values in the message to which I was responding AND a considered response to the "substance" of my posting. All I can say is you left me feeling flushed. Dennis 31209 49 24_Re: VALVES OF THE FUTURE13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il31_Tue, 28 Jan 2003 20:54:32 +0200140_iso-8859-1 Just a joke, Dennis. Don't take it personally. I was just wondering why we were talking so much about the future of plumbing. Jon 31259 32 15_Re: goat cheese11_Noam Stopak20_nstopak@orionsci.com31_Tue, 28 Jan 2003 16:02:56 -0500340_us-ascii Richardrdsmith@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 1/27/03 11:17:37 AM Eastern Standard Time, nstopak@orionsci.com writes: > >> It may be that the pendulum has >> reached the high point of it's arc in the Republican, unfettered >> capitalist direction. > > Unfettered capitalism has not existed in the U.S. since 1933. [...] 31292 40 24_Re: Your anser to Mollie11_Noam Stopak20_nstopak@orionsci.com31_Tue, 28 Jan 2003 16:11:25 -0500330_us-ascii DLerner569@aol.com wrote:

> Judy, Judy, Judy... > What a wonderful synoptic response. I'm smiling and excited. > > I accept this analysis completely, but it leaves me with questions/comments. > > First, the cultic Temple worship isn't a development in Judaism; it comes > straight from God in the Book. ... > [...] 31333 25 24_Re: VALVES OF THE FUTURE11_Noam Stopak20_nstopak@orionsci.com31_Tue, 28 Jan 2003 16:16:52 -0500336_us-ascii Jonathan Baum wrote:

> Just a joke, Dennis. Don't take it personally.I was just wondering why we were talking so much about the future of plumbing.Jon

>From the people I've spoken with lately, I think the future of plumbing is a rising tide and I hope my daughter will consider it as a possible career path. [...] 31359 21 24_Re: VALVES OF THE FUTURE0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Tue, 28 Jan 2003 16:36:11 EST582_US-ASCII Did you sign that posting "Jon." : -) I think this had better stop here before thing overflow. Dennis

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/

MyJewishLearning.com, The Personal Gateway to Jewish Exploration Officially launches: http://MyJewishLearning.com/index.htm?source=shamash ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 31381 92 24_Re: Your anser to Mollie0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Tue, 28 Jan 2003 17:24:24 EST502_US-ASCII Noam, Well, here I am. Sucked in again.

I was 11 before I knew that there was such a thing as Jews, and that I was one. To tell the truth I wasn't all that sure I was one even then since my mother and therefore half of my gene's are from a convert. From that point to this life has been a revelation. I began feeling that I just didn't fit. I didn't see things the way others did. I didn't feel about them the way others did. I didn't think about them (or rather I did think about [...] 31474 21 24_Re: VALVES OF THE FUTURE0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Tue, 28 Jan 2003 17:25:26 EST534_US-ASCII Jon, You mean you want her to take the plunge? Dennis

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/

MyJewishLearning.com, The Personal Gateway to Jewish Exploration Officially launches: http://MyJewishLearning.com/index.htm?source=shamash ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 31496 48 25_Re: Your answer to Mollie13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Tue, 28 Jan 2003 17:35:17 -0500301_us-ascii >

Dear Dennis,

I honestly don't know how to answer you when you begin by saying "the cultic Temple worship isn't a development in Judaism; it comes straight from God in the Book." I guess I begin by asking you who you think wrote the Book and where the material came from. [...] 31545 65 25_Re: Your answer to Mollie0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Tue, 28 Jan 2003 17:47:41 EST389_US-ASCII In a message dated 1/28/2003 5:32:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, gelman@erols.com writes:



> I honestly don't know how to answer you when you begin by saying "the cultic > Temple worship isn't a development in Judaism; it comes straight from God > in the > Book." I guess I begin by asking you who you think wrote the Book and where > the > material came from. > [...] 31611 64 25_Re: Your answer to Mollie13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Tue, 28 Jan 2003 18:28:11 -0500 31676 85 34_Re: Dennis on comparitive religion11_Noam Stopak20_nstopak@orionsci.com31_Tue, 28 Jan 2003 18:26:35 -0500575_iso-8859-1 DLerner569@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 1/28/2003 5:32:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, gelman@erols.com writes: > >> I honestly don't know how to answer you when you begin by saying "the cultic >> Temple worship isn't a development in Judaism; it comes straight from God in the >> Book." I guess I begin by asking you who you think wrote the Book and where the >> material came from. > > A group of Jews wrote the oral history of the Jews at the time of the Babylonian exile, there were doubtless many members of the Temple hierarchy involved, and [...] 31762 33 23_Inquiry re: Urim member17_suzanne m mackson16_susiem6@juno.com31_Tue, 28 Jan 2003 18:23:09 -0800298_-

I have, or had, a cousin, Asaf, an Israeli who would be in his 60's now. He was a shaliach to Habonim and met and married a chavera. They lived in Urim, at least for a while.

Might anyone remember his last name? Know whether he still lives in Urim. If not, where he might be. [...] 31796 50 27_Re: Inquiry re: Urim member11_Jack Porter23_jacknusan@earthlink.net31_Tue, 28 Jan 2003 19:53:38 -0800571_US-ASCII on 1/28/03 6:23 PM, suzanne m mackson at susiem6@juno.com wrote:

> > I have, or had, a cousin, Asaf, an Israeli who would be in his 60's now. > He was a shaliach to Habonim and met and married a chavera. They lived > in Urim, at least for a while. > > Might anyone remember his last name? Know whether he still lives in > Urim. If not, where he might be. > > Susie (Kallen) Mackson > > > ________________________________________________________________ > Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today > Only $9.95 per month! > Visit www.juno.com > [...] 31847 249 27_Re: Inquiry re: Urim member14_Frankie Meppen20_ganenet1@hotmail.com55_Tue, 28 Jan 2003 16:57:53 -0800 (Pacific Standard Time)403_iso-8859-8-i Dear Susie, I believe you are referring to Asaf Alterman. He was my workshop madrich in 1965. If my memory serves me correctly, both he and his wife,Barbara have passed away. Hope I have been helpful, Frankie Meppen

-------Original Message-------

From: habonet@shamash.org Date: Tuesday, January 28, 2003 15:57:23 To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: Inquiry re: Urim member [...] 32097 45 34_Re: Dennis on comparitive religion0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Tue, 28 Jan 2003 22:46:14 EST291_US-ASCII In a message dated 1/28/2003 6:27:24 PM Eastern Standard Time, nstopak@orionsci.com writes:



> . My questions continue to be a sincere attempt to understand your position > and are not intented to mock or insult you.

Your response demonstrates just that. Dennis 32143 204 47_Challenge to Habonim Dror - Reinvent Socialism!0_15_NEVETS2@aol.com29_Wed, 29 Jan 2003 01:07:08 EST477_ISO-8859-1 Chevre, Shalom

What a challenge for Habonim Dror in the 21st Century. Please read Dennis Lerner from today's Habonet below. If you agree with him - and there's no reason not to that I can see - we need to reinvent a socialist ideology that can capture the imagination and meet the needs of people as we evolve through this period of hypercapitalism and its excesses and the need for a socialist political correction emerges as sure as night follows day. [...] 32348 68 51_RE: Challenge to Habonim Dror - Reinvent Socialism!4_Meir21_meir_h@maccabi.org.il31_Wed, 29 Jan 2003 09:59:13 +0200185_windows-1255 Thanks for the challenge Dennis.

Right now I'm working on "love". ("School of Love" - "Temple of Love")

Seems to me more important than socialism.

Meir 32417 51 27_Re: Inquiry re: Urim member7_jzatkin26_jzatkin@public2.bta.net.cn31_Wed, 29 Jan 2003 17:09:08 +0800304_iso-8859-1 > I have, or had, a cousin, Asaf, an Israeli who would be in his 60's now. > He was a shaliach to Habonim and met and married a chavera. They lived > in Urim, at least for a while. > > Might anyone remember his last name? Know whether he still lives in > Urim. If not, where he might be. [...] 32469 85 0_15_Leo Diesendruck18_leodie@isdn.net.il31_Wed, 29 Jan 2003 13:48:44 +020020_US-ASCII REV

32555 35 51_Re: Challenge to Habonim Dror - Reinvent Socialism!13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Wed, 29 Jan 2003 07:02:57 -0500559_us-ascii Dear Steve,

Don't hold your breath. Habonim Dror now defines itself as "a Progressive Zionist Youth Movement." I wasn't paying attention at the time so I can't tell you when "socialism" in Habonim's self definition went the way of the dodo bird. It is still in the "pillars" as the 5th of 5. Since Habonim in some countries has only 3 pillars, it seems to me that that is a good indication that the "socialism" pillar of North AMerican Habonim Dror is not one that is load-bearing and is just there more or less for nostalgic decoration. [...] 32591 86 0_15_Leo Diesendruck18_leodie@isdn.net.il31_Wed, 29 Jan 2003 14:05:14 +020028_us-ascii REV Habonet

32678 25 44_Re: Inquiry Urim member Asaf Atar (Alterman)14_Holtzer Family20_carmdave@urim.org.il31_Wed, 29 Jan 2003 14:06:10 +0200484_iso-8859-1 Asaf is still among the living. His wife, Barbara, passed away several years ago. Asaf, however, does not live in Urim any longer. He met a woman and moved to Kibbutz Hatzerim.

` Dave Holtzer Urim



------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 32704 28 51_Re: Challenge to Habonim Dror - Reinvent Socialism!0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Wed, 29 Jan 2003 09:46:48 EST308_US-ASCII Dear Judy and Meir,

Peace and love are the main thing, I agree. Maybe I grew up in a backwater, but I thought the intent (though not the achievement) of socialism (again, as I learned it) was to provide a social contract environment that was supportive/nurturing to both peace and love. [...] 32733 27 51_Re: Challenge to Habonim Dror - Reinvent Socialism!0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Wed, 29 Jan 2003 09:51:21 EST608_US-ASCII PS

"Socialism" like communism, has a negative connotation in many of the homes from which Habonim recruits, no wonder it is downplayed. Frankly I'd be more inclined to look to Capitalism as the current best model and refine that toward greater humanism and less exploitation of people, resources, the environment....

Dennis

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 32761 58 11_Urim member16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Wed, 29 Jan 2003 10:51:42 -0500294_us-ascii In Habonet 2484, Susie Kallen Mackson wrote that

> I have, or had, a cousin, Asaf, an Israeli who would be in his 60's now. > He was a shaliach to Habonim and met and married a chavera. They lived > in Urim, at least for a while. > > Might anyone remember his last name? > [...] 32820 43 17_Re: one more time22_Marjorie Hanft Martone12_cfmh@eiu.edu31_Wed, 29 Jan 2003 10:48:57 -0700381_us-ascii Still hoping to hear from anyone out there who was with me at Machaneh Bonim, Hunter, NY, 1971. People knew me as "Margie Hanft." I already posted a little bio., but only heard from someone at Mosh I knew and someone from a kibbutz with kid with a disability (which I also posted about in bio). Replied personally to both of these people-so I do make return contact. [...] 32864 45 34_Re: Dennis on comparitive religion0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Wed, 29 Jan 2003 12:00:12 EST259_US-ASCII In a message dated 1/28/2003 6:27:24 PM Eastern Standard Time, nstopak@orionsci.com writes:



> I consider all organized religions to be hogwash and simply another way for > oligarchies to work their will

Hey, Its a living. Dennis 32910 31 17_Re: it's a living11_Noam Stopak20_nstopak@orionsci.com31_Wed, 29 Jan 2003 12:06:47 -0500386_us-ascii DLerner569@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 1/28/2003 6:27:24 PM Eastern Standard Time, nstopak@orionsci.com writes: > >> I consider all organized religions to be hogwash and simply another way for oligarchies to work their will > > > Hey, Its a living. > Dennis

So was having a seat on the politburo - I'd still rather have my daughter take up plumbing. [...] 32942 44 33_More synchronicity-Steve Ornstein0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Wed, 29 Jan 2003 12:50:46 EST546_US-ASCII SO- I called the Ratner Gallery for the Spanish project (thnaaks to everyone for their help) and went to the website where I saw one of the email addresses was fora guy named Steve Ornstein. When I asked Phil Ratner, the artist, about him- was he ever in Habonim, he said he didn't think so...But he gave me his business number in NY and the next day I called him. The conversation went like this: Steve: Hi Sue Liberman! Sue: Hi Steve- I got your number from Phil Ratner, and I was wondering if you were ever in Habonim.... STeve: [...] 32987 81 43_Dying Times at the UN/ The Washington Times11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org31_Wed, 29 Jan 2003 11:54:47 -0600812_ISO-8859-1

The Washington Times www.washingtontimes.com

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Dying gasps at the U.N. Martin Gross Published January 29, 2003



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The League of Nations, the predecessor of the United Nations, is now ugly history for its failure to react to major threats to the peace. Formed in 1920 as a result of World War I, is started with some small initial successes. It settled such disputes as the Swedish-Finnish argument over the Aland Islands in 1923, guaranteed the security of Albania, and prevented the outbreak of war between Greece and Bulgaria in 1925. In addition, like the current United Nations, it gave aid [...] 33069 21 17_Re: it's a living0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Wed, 29 Jan 2003 16:44:03 EST525_US-ASCII Noam, Please lets not go there again. Dennis

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/

MyJewishLearning.com, The Personal Gateway to Jewish Exploration Officially launches: http://MyJewishLearning.com/index.htm?source=shamash ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 33091 27 17_Re: it's a living11_Noam Stopak20_nstopak@orionsci.com31_Wed, 29 Jan 2003 16:47:20 -0500495_us-ascii DLerner569@aol.com wrote:

> Noam, > Please lets not go there again. > Dennis

but Dennis, I go there all the time :-) And besides, you seemed to have all the fun last time...

Or do you mean the politburo?

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 33119 177 46_Re: Habonim& Socialism: Don't hold your breath0_15_NEVETS2@aol.com29_Thu, 30 Jan 2003 00:58:37 EST596_ISO-8859-1

In a message dated 1/30/03 12:08:04 AM, habonet@shamash.org writes:

> > Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 07:02:57 -0500 > From: Judith Gelman > To: habonet@shamash.org > Subject: Re: Challenge to Habonim Dror - Reinvent Socialism! > > Dear Steve, > > Don't hold your breath. Habonim Dror now defines itself as "a > Progressive Zionist Youth Movement." I wasn't paying attention at the > time so I can't tell you when "socialism" in Habonim's self definition > went the way of the dodo bird. It is still in the "pillars" as the 5th > of 5. Since Habonim in [...] 33297 50 37_Re: More synchronicity-Steve Ornstein21_Tsippi (Frances) Rudy16_tsippi@attbi.com31_Wed, 29 Jan 2003 23:08:44 -0800301_us-ascii Sue,

Isn't that ORSTEIN, not OrNstein?

Tsippi

At 09:50 AM 1/29/03, you wrote: >SO- I called the Ratner Gallery for the Spanish project (thnaaks to everyone >for their help) and went to the website where I saw one of the email >addresses was fora guy named Steve Ornstein. 33348 32 37_Re: More synchronicity-Steve Ornstein0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Thu, 30 Jan 2003 10:40:08 EST133_US-ASCII ooops!- well- I made a mistake- but look how it turned out!,,,,,,,,I guess I was having one of those "senior" moments"/////s 33381 97 9_Re: ahava0_15_NEVETS2@aol.com29_Thu, 30 Jan 2003 13:58:12 EST460_ISO-8859-1

In a message dated 1/30/03 12:08:04 AM, habonet@shamash.org writes:



> From: "Meir" > To: > Subject: RE: Challenge to Habonim Dror - Reinvent Socialism! > Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 09:59:13 +0200 > > Thanks for the challenge Dennis. > > Right now I'm working on "love". ("School of Love" - "Temple of Love") > > Seems to me more important than socialism. > > Meir > Meir, shalom [...] 33479 67 9_Re: ahava0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Thu, 30 Jan 2003 16:19:26 EST511_US-ASCII Chaver Steve,

Its Dennis, again. I had an epifanal moment this morning, and it will take me a long time to recover. I realized that I am an addict. This is very strange because, I know many people with addictive personalities. People totally committed to this or that while they are committed to it, then on to the next addiction. I on the otherhand am always a half step removed, watching from a safe distance, observing, generalizing, trying to grasp the big picture, pluses and minuses. [...] 33547 38 9_Re: ahava0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Thu, 30 Jan 2003 16:38:32 EST589_US-ASCII Dennis- I have stayed out of these discussions because, for the most part, I feel inadequate in expressing what you do in such an eloquent way, but I have to respond to your feelings of depression in anticipating the finality of the lack passion-driven dreams...Look- "it ain't over 'til it's over"- and despite age, illness, what-have-you- people have an amazing ability to fight and crawl and reach for whatever they are seeking with amazing strength and vision. You don't have to go to headlines and the movies to see it- and what is amazing is the fact that, despite the [...] 33586 34 9_Re: ahava0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Thu, 30 Jan 2003 16:53:46 EST569_US-ASCII Sue, Thank you for your kind thoughts. I guess I sounded pretty bummed, eh? Its not like that. I have great awe and appreciation for the beauty around me. It isn't that I don't feel my dreams are no longer achievable, it is these moments of coming together where the whole is infinitely greater than the parts and the universe abandons the laws that govern ordinary purposes, and unaided human flight by force of will is possible -- and experienced. I need a fix of that. Otherwise life is fine, better than fine. I've heard actors and directors speak of [...] 33621 49 9_re: Magic0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Thu, 30 Jan 2003 19:21:16 EST589_US-ASCII Dennis- I know what you are feeling- and having worked on movie sets for almost 20 years, I know what the directors and actors ( and writers and actually, any artist) are talking about when it comes to "magic"- You take a film set- actors, directors, grips and electrics, hair and makeup- wardrobe, etc etc...hundreds of crewmembers working together to make a finished product. You read the script and visualize it a certain way- but once it is on the screen, something is completely different from those days "out in the field."...A finished work of art is out there-and it [...] 33671 121 9_RE: ahava4_Meir21_meir_h@maccabi.org.il31_Fri, 31 Jan 2003 05:24:23 +0200308_windows-1255 Thanks for asking Steve.

1. You've said it as well as I could

love as a possible engine for Tikkun Olam. Seems to me that the incredible synergies that emerge when people treat each other lovingly and with trust ought to be able to be channeled to help create a better world. [...] 33793 34 9_Re: ahava0_15_Emabear@aol.com29_Fri, 31 Jan 2003 00:25:46 EST166_US-ASCII I don't think of myself as a prude but maybe I am. I don't know what this website has to do w/Habonim and I wonder if anyone else is offended? Ellen Ginsburg 33828 102 9_Re: ahava7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Fri, 31 Jan 2003 00:06:02 +0200427_iso-8859-1 Dennis, my dear chanich, what "anticipatory mourning," what "last of those rare moments?" Where you goin' son? Your letter took me back to our wonderful ken in Buffalo, and many memories of you surfaced because of your descriptive letter. Shabbat shalom, pearl

----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2003 11:19 PM Subject: Re: ahava [...] 33931 136 9_RE: ahava11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Fri, 31 Jan 2003 00:47:17 -0800442_iso-8859-1 My vote is for no "Temple of Love" stuff on the Habonet. I am not voting that way to be mean. It just doesn't fit.

Steve -----Original Message----- From: owner-habonet@shamash.org [mailto:owner-habonet@shamash.org]On Behalf Of NEVETS2@aol.com Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2003 10:58 AM To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: Re: ahava





In a message dated 1/30/03 12:08:04 AM, habonet@shamash.org writes: [...] 34068 23 16_For Elihu and JJ0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Fri, 31 Jan 2003 12:54:57 EST322_US-ASCII Hi- We have a question about the 108th Congress and the Judiciary committee--has it been set? And have they accepted nominations for the Supreme Court yet?-We have an article to publish- but some of us think it is outdated...Please answer asap to me at work: sliberman@blazergrp.com) if you can--thanks- sue [...] 34092 63 9_Re: ahava11_Noam Stopak20_nstopak@orionsci.com31_Fri, 31 Jan 2003 15:06:18 -0500634_us-ascii Well my vote is for no censorship on Habonet. Cesnorship seems farther from what I learned in the movement than the Temple of Love, though clearly some of us had different experiences.

Noam

Steve Klein wrote:

> My vote is for no "Temple of Love" stuff on the Habonet. I am not voting that way to be mean. It just doesn't fit. Steve > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-habonet@shamash.org [mailto:owner-habonet@shamash.org]On Behalf Of NEVETS2@aol.com > Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2003 10:58 AM > To: habonet@shamash.org > Subject: Re: ahava > > > > In a message dated 1/30/03 12:08:04 AM, [...] 34156 28 20_Re: For Elihu and JJ11_Noam Stopak20_nstopak@orionsci.com31_Fri, 31 Jan 2003 15:08:48 -0500365_us-ascii LiberHawke@aol.com wrote:

> Hi- We have a question about the 108th Congress and the Judiciary > committee--has it been set? And have they accepted nominations for the > Supreme Court yet?-We have an article to publish- but some of us think it is > outdated...Please answer asap to me at work: sliberman@blazergrp.com) if you > can--thanks- sue [...] 34185 49 9_Re: ahava13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il31_Fri, 31 Jan 2003 22:12:23 +0200108_iso-8859-1 I'm ok with the "Temple of Love" but I wonder who wrote the book of love.

Cheers Noam. Jon 34235 23 9_Re: ahava0_18_Brianscoop@aol.com31_Fri, 31 Jan 2003 15:15:04 -0500408_iso-8859-1 > Cesnorship > seems farther from what I learned in the movement than the > Temple of Love

What Eizor were you? And where was I?

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 34259 25 9_Re: ahava11_Noam Stopak20_nstopak@orionsci.com31_Fri, 31 Jan 2003 15:19:33 -0500545_us-ascii I believe it was "Whobadudu Who" who wrote the book of love, but maybe I've just read too much Dr. Seuss. :-)

And a good shabbos to you Jon

Jonathan Baum wrote:

> I'm ok with the "Temple of Love" but I wonder who wrote the book of love. Cheers Noam. Jon

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ [...] 34285 43 20_Re: For Elihu and JJ11_Noam Stopak20_nstopak@orionsci.com31_Fri, 31 Jan 2003 16:30:37 -0500547_us-ascii Noam Stopak wrote:

> LiberHawke@aol.com wrote: > > > Hi- We have a question about the 108th Congress and the Judiciary > > committee--has it been set? And have they accepted nominations for the > > Supreme Court yet?-We have an article to publish- but some of us think it is > > outdated...Please answer asap to me at work: sliberman@blazergrp.com) if you > > can--thanks- sue > > As Jon Baum would say - use the web. Try www.senate.gov and click on senate committees and then click on judiciary. The answers are yes and yes. [...] 34329 60 9_RE: ahava11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Fri, 31 Jan 2003 15:48:46 -0800599_iso-8859-1 I apologize for not making myself 100%, absolutely, crystal clear. I did not intend censorship (by any spelling), nor did I intend to be a messenger of the thought police. But I see that you can't always be sure how things are going to be interpreted.

When I indicated that my vote would be................ I was going by the old interpretation of the the word "vote". Sorry. To explain, without sarcasm, please: "Vote": the casting of one's opinion so that a decision may arrived at by a democratic process for those people involved. If the majority position is of expanding [...] 34390 32 9_Re: ahava0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com29_Fri, 31 Jan 2003 19:33:59 EST125_US-ASCII I happen to agree this time. Except for the part about helpful hints from Martha Stewart. Can't get enough of those. 34423 88 9_Re: ahava29_Richard Steacy & Esther Cohen22_richard.steacy@gte.net31_Fri, 31 Jan 2003 18:02:24 -0500387_iso-8859-1 ...haven't we already been here?... :) ecohen washington dc mosh and i do remember you - you were big, i was little. chip cohen's little sister, even. ----- Original Message ----- From: Jonathan Baum To: habonet@shamash.org Sent: Friday, January 31, 2003 3:12 PM Subject: Re: ahava



I'm ok with the "Temple of Love" but I wonder who wrote the book of love. [...] 34512 36 18_Going Off the List21_Tsippi (Frances) Rudy16_tsippi@attbi.com31_Fri, 31 Jan 2003 20:06:38 -0800510_us-ascii Dear Chevre,

I am temporarily going off Habonet for a few months while going through chemotherapy for ovarian cancer. My own petty concerns don't let me concentrate either on the earth-shaking or the nit-picking on our wonderful list.

If you would like to stay in touch, I would be happy to read your direct, personal email; just have no patience for politics or bullshit (sometimes, of course, these are one and the same!) If you're local, I'd welcome phone calls at 310/204-4684. [...]