1 SHAMASH.ORG /usr/www/wwwhc/listserv/archives/habonet August 2002 2 36 24_1948 historical document16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Thu, 01 Aug 2002 00:57:41 -0400599_us-ascii Yuval Warshai posted the text of an interesting ad from a 1948 issue of the New York Times. He notes knowing the names of only two of the signatories, Einstein and Hannah Arendt. A couple of others are noteworthy including Sidney Hook, a friend of Arendt's and an eminent social philosopher who for many years taught at the New School for Social Research. Harry M. Orlinsky (not Oslinsky) was the most eminent Jewish bible translator of our time; he chaired the 1963 JPS Bible translating committee. Orlinsky, himself a member of API (forerunner of Meretz in America) was a delightful [...] 39 41 19_Re: Today's tragedy0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com28_Thu, 1 Aug 2002 00:59:32 EDT259_US-ASCII In a message dated 7/31/02 11:51:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, DLerner569@aol.com writes:



> the fact that Lincoln > was prepared to sacrifice 600,000 American lives to preserve the country

He did, in fact actually more than that. 81 21 13_Arthur Waskow12_Doug Greener25_ddwgreen@netvision.net.il31_Wed, 31 Jul 2002 23:13:38 +0300598_iso-8859-1 I checked Waskow out with my brother, who went to high school and college with him in the late 40's and 50's (not 60's!). My brother, who was in Habonim then, on Cottage Ave., says Waskow was never in Habonim... Don't know where Aliya got the info.

Trudy

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 103 34 19_Re: Today's tragedy13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Thu, 01 Aug 2002 08:31:26 -0400574_us-ascii Israel is prepared to sacrifice an awful lot of young lives too in protecting the country. That is a lot different than potentially sacrificing your child's life for a semester aboard, even in a country to which you have a strong attachment.. I say this as someone who actually took my kids to Israel this summer---and when we got off the 777 at Ben Gurion, the 3 of us plus my cousin and his daughter were literally the only people who went through the "zarim" (non-Israeli passport) line. Some no doubt held dual citizenship but we were the ONLY "tourists". [...] 138 17 17_Re: Arthur Waskow0_18_Brianscoop@aol.com31_Thu, 01 Aug 2002 10:37:08 -0400413_iso-8859-1 don't know about waskow, but i believe he had kid(s) in mosh.

--brian

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 156 21 17_Re: Arthur Waskow12_David Fleiss20_dfleiss@pipeline.com31_Thu, 01 Aug 2002 10:43:04 -0400569_- For what it's worth:

A few years ago, I read the memoir he co-wrote with his brother, "Becoming Brothers."

The book included a lot of information about their childhoods, but I don't remember any mention of Habonim.

David

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 178 165 20_My good friend Janis0_15_NEVETS2@aol.com28_Thu, 1 Aug 2002 11:33:39 EDT673_US-ASCII >From my daughter Abby

Chaver Steve ==========================================

Message Janice was one of the Americans killed in the Hebrew U. attack.

Laura is my good friend from Barnard.

Boo hoo, ouch. :(

Love, me Abby



-----Original Message-----

From: Cane, Laura [mailto:laura.cane@intel.com]

Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 2:57 AM

Subject: RE: My Friend Janis



More news at http://www.haaretzdaily.com



http://www.nytimes.com/2002/08/01/international/middleeast/01VICT.html



I met Janis in the summer of 1996. A few years my senior, she was [...] 344 50 19_The Lightning Flash12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Thu, 01 Aug 2002 22:46:41 +0200537_us-ascii Haverim/ot Hiam is right when he writes: 1 The point is NOT to simply kill as many as possible as quickly as possible. That is not war it is slaughter. and 2. The point is to win the war. The ONLY acceptable long term reason for war is eliminate it. ...not to kill someone else's children (and all soldiers are someone's child) but to protect their own loved ones. The only real protection is peace not faster more successful killing. (...) 3. If there was a cease fire plan in the works and if in fact that cease fire was [...] 395 19 18_University bombing11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com30_Thu, 1 Aug 2002 14:39:07 -0700439_iso-8859-1 It is time to recognise that this is war. It is certainly the time to pull out the stops.

Steve

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 415 53 23_Re: The Lightning Flash0_18_DLerner569@aol.com28_Thu, 1 Aug 2002 22:47:39 EDT555_US-ASCII Amnon, With everything you said that Hiam said I agree with. However a few turns of the handles later, Joshua, with Moses (fortunately) nowhere in site, like a bridegroom marches 3 times his conquest to be, elevates his horn in the air, and lo the gates of his passion open up to him (not to mention the walls come tumbling down - like veils all around. The consequence of this dance of conquest is not a marriage, but the deaths of untold men, women and children moments earlier safe behind the walls of their home - their sanctuary. To my [...] 469 49 21_Appropriate Responses27_Maxene and Frank Perlmutter24_habesor@netvision.net.il31_Fri, 02 Aug 2002 09:31:49 +0200561_us-ascii I've been following the discussion about the killing of Shehade and I would like to comment as to the notion that there is some kind of appropriate response to Palestinian terrorism. It seems to me, that underlying some of the arguments about an appropriate response is the idea that such a response must be seen to be appropriate both by us Jews and by the Palestinians. By appropriate, I think what is meant is some action on the part of the IDF that does not generate a drive for a violent response on the part of the Palestinians. However, an [...] 519 544 48_Fw: Atrocities, Retaliations and the Laws of War7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Fri, 02 Aug 2002 11:32:13 +0300338_windows-1255 The below letter was sent to me by a friend, a professor in Tel Aviv, who was in my Habonim ken in Buffalo. The writer of the article below, Professor Beres, is an expert in the Laws of War. pearl p.s. no need to open the attachments: there is nothing there. I don't know how to erase attachments, so I left them. pearl [...] 1064 112 23_Re: The Lightning Flash0_14_LHIAM1@aol.com28_Fri, 2 Aug 2002 07:43:17 EDT566_US-ASCII In a message dated 8/1/2002 10:48:16 PM Eastern Standard Time, DLerner569@aol.com writes:



> I believe the way to win is to defeat your > enemy to the point where the next move crushes the enemy to the point of > being nonfunctional, if not non-existant. this is not done from meanness or > > vilification, but because it is the quickest, most effective and most > efficient way to achieve peace. As the visitor you can be as generous, > magnanimous, and fair as you care to, but if the enemy is not defeated > beyond > their capacity to [...] 1177 44 12_summer camps16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Fri, 02 Aug 2002 09:03:31 -0400437_us-ascii CAMP KINDERWELT/UNSER CAMP Anyone who attended Camp Kinderwelt/Unser Camp in Highland Mills, N.Y. It was a non-profit Zionist Labor Camp sponsored by the Farband. Frequented by Yiddish theatre actors, writers, poets, this was an incredible summer camp which existed from the 1920's to the early '70's. Sadly, it is now a housing development... Am interested in sharing memories/photos.... Suzanne Pulier [...] 1222 256 23_RE: The Lightning Flash11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com30_Fri, 2 Aug 2002 06:29:59 -0700347_us-ascii Dear LHIAM

What if, for the sake of argument, you don't take the group known as the "German People"? Let's take a group and call them "The Nazis". They, too had a dream. A grand one. Unfortunately, their dream was incompatible with our dream. America was correct in choosing to not let them have their dream, but to crush it. [...] 1479 84 23_Re: The Lightning Flash0_18_DLerner569@aol.com28_Fri, 2 Aug 2002 10:49:03 EDT436_US-ASCII Hiam,

I couldn't (and obviously didn't) say it better my self.

My posting spoke about generosity of the victor. The WWII model. I cannot imagine a WWI strategy on the part of Israel. I believe the fact is that the WWII victory by the white hats was more crushing, and more devastating on the Germans than that of WWI, it was the post-victory response that was so different (as you characterized it so well). [...] 1564 54 23_Re: The Lightning Flash0_14_LHIAM1@aol.com28_Fri, 2 Aug 2002 11:06:01 EDT559_US-ASCII Steve you miss the point The Nazi dream was BORN of the crushing of the German soul after WWI The Germany with which America is now at peace with was NOT crushed after WWI as it was after WWI. And to my sorrow neither was the Nazi dream crushed by the American soldiers -- it is effectively kept in check only by a prosperous secure German people. Are you suggesting that Israel should crush either the Palestinian people or their dream? Or do you believe that either the people or the dream are the legitimate targets of a despotic leadership? [...] 1619 173 23_RE: The Lightning Flash11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com30_Fri, 2 Aug 2002 08:49:37 -0700548_us-ascii

Hiam

You seem to have a different view of the nature of people and peoples from the one that I have. No amount of arguing is going to affect that. However, as long as we are going into this issue, then let me ask your take on Japan's attempt at world domination. The version that I was given was, at its most basic, was this: One man, a very charismatic man, had a dream. Hirohito went to his people and said, "I've got one heck of an idea. Using surprise, cunning and strength, we can crush the paper tiger, America." [...] 1793 88 52_FW: middle east PLEASE DON'T MISS THIS !!!!!! Marcia11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com30_Fri, 2 Aug 2002 09:00:10 -0700506_iso-8859-1

-----Original Message----- From: Marcia Plager [mailto:mplager@socal.rr.com] Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2002 7:48 PM To: Mark and Etta Goldberg; Elly Krapek; David Remis; Deloris Hendrix; Doug and Renee Goldenberg-Schwartz; Dan Sline; Baruch Eichenbaum Subject: Fw: middle east PLEASE DON'T MISS THIS !!!!!! Marcia





----- Original Message ----- From: Steve Honigsfeld To: Marcia Plager ; Melinda Morse Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2002 10:02 AM Subject: middle east [...] 1882 32 56_Re: FW: middle east PLEASE DON'T MISS THIS !!!!!! Marcia11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Fri, 02 Aug 2002 12:18:03 -0400599_us-ascii Steve Klein wrote:

> > -...read complete > http://www.conceptwizard.com/conflict.html

This slide show asserts that Britain's principle obligation under the League of Nations mandate was to implement the Balfour declaration. Does anyone have substantiation for this assertion?

The next assertion indicates that the mandate was divided in 1922 and that Jews were only allowed in the western district and then goes on to indicate that Trans-Jordan was made independent in 1946. My understanding was that Jordan was independent in 1922. Can anyone shed light on this? [...] 1915 24 18_Very Mundane Thing11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org30_Fri, 2 Aug 2002 12:18:41 -0500354_us-ascii Does anyone have experience or know anything about this long distance company called CUCUMBER? Are they reputable? Are they legitimate? I had a veery bad experience with IDT and switched back to MCI. I am looking for aless expensive company for my many phone calls to israel.

The website is: http://www.800cucumber.com Todah, Rozzie [...] 1940 40 23_Re: The Lightning Flash13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Fri, 02 Aug 2002 14:11:05 -0400454_us-ascii Dennis wrote: "Instead of a wall. How about some fences in a nice empty area of the Sinai. We invite those Palestinians who want peace, or don't support terror to come be our guests. We make a few calls for folks to come. Send some of those who come back to tell others about the conditions, and then say that everyone left after a certain date will be considered a combatant. The logistics seem impractical, so how about a town at a time" [...] 1981 65 15_Job Opportunity0_14_LHIAM1@aol.com28_Fri, 2 Aug 2002 15:16:32 EDT391_US-ASCII Positions Available at Camp Na'aleh We are currently looking to fill 2 Part-Time positions for Na'aleh - REGISTRAR and BUSINESS MANAGER. Both are year-round. We will consider combining these positions.

For more information or to apply for either or both (please specify), contact Rita Katcher-Susse, chair of the Na'aleh Personnel Committee, at rkatchersusse@yahoo.com. [...] 2047 51 23_Re: The Lightning Flash0_14_LHIAM1@aol.com28_Fri, 2 Aug 2002 15:19:43 EDT382_US-ASCII Judy, My turn to say AMEN thank you so much for your wonderful if obvious to some reply. Shabbat Shalom

Hiam Simon Director of Advertising Jerusalem Post / Jerusalem Report Phone (212) 625-4802 Fax (212) 226-1940 Doing business without advertising, is like winking at a girl in the dark. You know what you are doing but nobody else does. Stewart Henderson Britt 1956 2099 185 19_Re: Today's tragedy12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Fri, 02 Aug 2002 23:44:31 +0200555_iso-8859-1 Judy, It’s several years now since I’ve gotten to know you - unfortunately only by email. And as you’ve probably realized by now, I admire how you think and like what you write. The people whom one really likes are also the ones who have the ability to make one sad. Sometimes it’s when they hold up a mirror to you. Sometimes it’s when they make you realize something you’d rather wasn’t so. I was ineffably saddened by your posting yesterday for it made me apprehend a truth I wish was otherwise. And as with friends with whom you share [...] 2285 17 17_Re: Arthur Waskow0_18_Rachelbern@aol.com31_Fri, 02 Aug 2002 17:37:25 -0400405_iso-8859-1 His daughter Shoshana was one of my chanichim in 1978.

Rachel

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 2303 87 23_Re: The Lightning Flash0_18_DLerner569@aol.com28_Fri, 2 Aug 2002 18:01:16 EDT558_US-ASCII Hey Judy, did I detect a note of ... derision?

Even so the questions are good. I don't know about the value of the Sinai or whether its worth the effort to retake and hold, but I don't have a fundamental opposition.

As for the more genuine issue of concentration camps. I had in mind a refuge not refugees. I would like to separate the combatants from the non-combatants. I would be happy to make these temporary home the equivalent of a luxury spa, except for the challenge to getting folks to go home again. I want Israel to be [...] 2391 37 23_Re: The Lightning Flash0_18_DLerner569@aol.com28_Fri, 2 Aug 2002 18:19:23 EDT612_US-ASCII Judy I was just re-reading your message.

You ask about re-conquering (the Sinai) I take it as a rhetorical question, though I answered it the first time around.

Conquering seems to me to be one of our very best developed skills. I'm not proud of this accomplishment and recognize that it is motivated out of current necessity and the vibration of that deep base string ...NEVER, ever, ever again. Yet that skill is precisely the one we refuse to use. Are their women and children more precious than our own? Are we not justified in eliminating this obnoxious, mendacious, implacable, [...] 2429 21 30_Re: Forward from Lenny Zurakov0_18_Rachelbern@aol.com31_Fri, 02 Aug 2002 18:36:49 -0400591_iso-8859-1 Call me a spoilsport, but this story smacks of "urban legend" to me, because it has so many elements that are typical of all the other parable-type pieces going around (and around, and around, ad nauseum), including: the use of "real" names, titles, and/or locations to add validity ('when his mom turned away for less than a minute, a child was snatched in the Kmart in Hyattsville, MD; luckily, someone went into the bathroom just in time to catch the kidnapper trying to climb out the window with the child--whose clothes had been changed, and hair cut and dyed); medical [...] 2451 123 19_Re: Today's tragedy13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Fri, 02 Aug 2002 20:07:01 -0400 2575 116 23_Re: The Lightning Flash13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Fri, 02 Aug 2002 20:42:12 -0400567_us-ascii Dear Dennis,

Yes, you correctly noted derision.

Let me try to explain this to you very simply: The Palestinian people currently living in the West Bank are culturally and tribally tied to 60% of the people in Jordan. That does not mean that they came from the area that now makes up Jordan. They came from the land that is inside the Green line and the land that is now Occupied Territory. (THere are also Palestinians in Egypt and Kuwait and Saudi Arabian but that doesn't make the people on the Gaza strip Egyptians, Kuwaitis or Saudi.) [...] 2692 42 25_Back where they came from13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Fri, 02 Aug 2002 21:21:32 -0400399_us-ascii Dear Dennis,

"Are we not justified in eliminating this obnoxious, mendacious, implacable, gnat"....Depends if you prefer Mein Kampf or the Talmud as your guide.

"or in relocating it wholesale back into the yard where it came from?" Including Haifa? Yafo? Lod? What makes you think that the people in Nablus aren't from Nablus as many generations back as you can uncover? [...] 2735 166 23_Re: The Lightning Flash0_18_DLerner569@aol.com28_Sat, 3 Aug 2002 00:36:10 EDT371_US-ASCII In a message dated 8/2/2002 8:41:59 PM Eastern Daylight Time, gelman@erols.com writes:



> Let me try to explain this to you very simply: The Palestinian people > currently > living in the West Bank are culturally and tribally tied to 60% of the > people in > Jordan. That does not mean that they came from the area that now makes up > Jordan. [...] 2902 128 11_Monthly FAQ12_Jennifer Kay19_kay@elvis.rowan.edu31_Sat, 03 Aug 2002 02:32:02 -0400415_- Actually-from:brianscoop@aol.com

Hi Chevre,

Here is a reminder of the "essential" commands that you can use to configure your subscription to Habonet. I will post this monthly from now on. Please note -- The address for commands is: listproc@shamash.org whereas the address for posts to the list is: habonet@shamash.org If you need any help with any of it, send me an email: brianscoop@aol.com [...] 3031 73 26_lightning flash in the pan16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Sat, 03 Aug 2002 09:10:06 -0400564_us-ascii In Habonet 2315, Dennis Lerner writes that

> The refusal of Jordan to take the > followers of Arafat back in no way resolves the issue or makes these people > wards or citizens of Israel. > The issue of West Bank & Gaza residents is at the crux of the Palestinian issue. Fact is, after 1948 Jordan annexed the West Bank as an integral part of the Hashemite Kingdom, its residents then becoming Jordanian citizens. (I'm a bit shaky on the status of refugee camp residents at that time.) It was, I believe, following the Black September of 1971 [...] 3105 28 19_Habonet Digest 23130_18_ElihuCohen@aol.com28_Sat, 3 Aug 2002 10:32:39 EDT352_US-ASCII Concerning the letter to the New York Times dated December 4, 1948: I remember that letter. It contained nothing that we Labor Zionists did not already know. The Herut party was a continuation of Jabotinsky's Revisionist Party. As such it was called fascist from the start. I also recognize nearly a third of those who signed the letter. [...] 3134 18 23_Re: Habonet Digest 23130_18_DLerner569@aol.com28_Sat, 3 Aug 2002 11:08:34 EDT407_US-ASCII Elihu, Where are you that you are reading the Syracuse Newspaper? Dennis

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 3153 161 23_Re: The Lightning Flash0_18_DLerner569@aol.com28_Sat, 3 Aug 2002 11:19:33 EDT413_UTF-8 Judy,

Whether Batar or Mosh it was a Camp for Zionist youth. While no longer a youth in anyone's book, I can still appreciate a recipe for brisket. How 'bout it?

I've had a chance to sleep on your proposition that Sharon, the Egyptians and Jordanians come to me for the answer to this mess. Did you include Arafat too? Doesn't matter. Here are my opening remarks to the gathered leaders. [...] 3315 136 23_Re: The Lightning Flash13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Sat, 03 Aug 2002 19:43:33 -0400563_iso-8859-1 What was Hosni's question? Judy

DLerner569@aol.com wrote:

> Judy, > > Whether Batar or Mosh it was a Camp for Zionist youth. While no longer a > youth in anyone's book, I can still appreciate a recipe for brisket. How > 'bout it? > > I've had a chance to sleep on your proposition that Sharon, the Egyptians and > Jordanians come to me for the answer to this mess. Did you include Arafat > too? Doesn't matter. Here are my opening remarks to the gathered leaders. > > Gentlemen: > > This is an unprecedented meeting. I recognize the [...] 3452 165 51_An Ugly Rumor or an Ugly Truth? / N.Y. Times, 08/0411_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org30_Sun, 4 Aug 2002 08:58:31 -0500543_ISO-8859-1

WEEK IN REVIEW An Ugly Rumor or an Ugly Truth? By RICHARD BERNSTEIN



THE day after the deadly Palestinian attack on Hebrew University in Jerusalem, The Guardian, the left-leaning British newspaper, published an editorial criticizing Israel for what the paper called "random, vengeful acts of terror" against Palestinian civilians during its reoccupation of the West Bank town of Jenin last spring. This after a United Nations report dismissed Palestinian claims that Israel had massacred civilians there. [...] 3618 37 23_Re: The Lightning Flash0_18_DLerner569@aol.com28_Sun, 4 Aug 2002 12:32:42 EDT333_US-ASCII Yes, Dennis. Actually two, if you'll permit me.

Certainly Mr. President.

Well, I think I speak for all of us when I ask; where have you been until now? And second, what of the proposal we put on the table this spring for a full normalization of relations in exchange for the return to the '67 boundaries? [...] 3656 74 0_12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Mon, 05 Aug 2002 22:54:48 +0200529_iso-8859-1 Haverim/ot When our new gardener said photosynthesis, I detected an English inflection. I asked how come and he pulled out NY State drivers’ license. It was a bit faded so I asked how long do you have this? Seven years, he answered. What made you come back? While I was there I heard a Meir Ariel song: “You give up a country only in your heart” Later, I looked up Ariel’s song and translated it. Read it at your peril. I’ll explain at the end. * You part with a country only in your heart You leave only in your [...] 3731 621 8_Saliency12_Doug Greener25_ddwgreen@netvision.net.il31_Mon, 05 Aug 2002 17:48:36 +0300667_windows-1255 Let's see, how to they say it on Habonet? Oh yes, "I don't agree with everything, but there are a lot of salient point here. A literal sea of saliency."





Annihilate Hamas

Or they will annihilate us

By Jock L. Falkson

falkson@netvision.net.il

August 5, 2002

Many Israelis are this day despondent over the Sharon government’s apparent inability of the to subdue Palestinian terrorism. Hamas in particular. It is true Israel’s army is innovative in its solutions, and certainly has more creative plans up its sleeve. But it is equally true that the enemy has also been successful in its counter [...] 4353 22 12_Re: Saliency0_15_DebALev@aol.com28_Mon, 5 Aug 2002 16:27:07 EDT582_US-ASCII So who is this guy? I have a cousin by marriage who sent me an email saying that all Arabs should be expelled from Israel.........and daily, I get other stuff where somebody opines about what should be done.

What is the point?

Debbie

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 4376 20 12_Re: Saliency0_18_DLerner569@aol.com28_Mon, 5 Aug 2002 19:30:10 EDT395_US-ASCII Deb,

If not them, Us? If not now, when?

Dennis

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 4397 17 12_Re: Saliency0_18_Rachelbern@aol.com31_Mon, 05 Aug 2002 19:41:44 -0400522_iso-8859-1 Debbie, I'm with you. Is there some reason we should be particularly impressed or appalled by Mr. Falkson's opinion, as compared to anything written by members of Habonet?

Rachel

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 4415 97 27_Re: Saliency (my two cents)0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com28_Mon, 5 Aug 2002 20:25:07 EDT611_UTF-8 In a message dated 8/5/02 4:13:34 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ddwgreen@netvision.net.il writes:



> A number of writers have recently concluded that the Palestinians are waging > a war of genocide against the people of Israel. Caroline Glick, in her > weekly column for The Jerusalem Post last Friday, made no bones about her > conclusion. In her article “ No tolerance for genocide” she wrote: “The > fact that the Palestinians currently lack the means used by the Germans to > perpetrate their genocidal policy against the Jews blinds us from the fact > that their desire to do so [...] 4513 531 27_RE: Saliency (my two cents)13_Avi Goldstein24_habergo@barak-online.net30_Tue, 6 Aug 2002 07:22:22 +0200411_Windows-1252 Richard, I agree that the Hamas activities against Israel, insofar as they take place here, should not be defined as genocide (although in reading the Geneva convention on genocide I could see another interpretation. However, according to your definition:

I also have no doubt that many Palestinians, including Hamas, want to wipe Israel off the face of the Earth, that is not genocide [...] 5045 643 0_15_Leo Diesendruck18_leodie@isdn.net.il30_Tue, 6 Aug 2002 16:58:37 +02001368_us-ascii I sent out emails to invite former Habonim members in Israel to a Kumsitz in Jerusalem on August 24th. The names below "bounced". Can anyone give me information as to their whereabouts?







HDIRA



L_NAME

F_NAME

E_MAIL



ABEL

Evelyn Chaya

jabel@netvision.net.il



AVIDOR

Israel

riavidor@kfar-hanassi.og.il



BARAK

Naty

natyb@Netafim.com



BOROCHOV

Polly

arielb@inter.net.il



FORMAN

Geremy Erenberg

class@gilboa.co.il



FRENKLEY

Helen

Helen-F@neotkedumim.org.il



GOLDFARB

Brahm

brahm@netvision.net.il



HECHT

Esther

elk@netvision.net.il



KAUFMAN

Liz

ramah@attmail.com



KRAMER

Keren

Kerenk@hotmail.com



KULUVA

Josh

kuluva@hotmail.com



LEVIN

Aria

lyaron@inter.net.il



MEYEROWITZ

Yosef

haya@netmedia.net.il



RAPOPORT-BUCHWALD

Judy

buchwald@inter.net.il



ROSENTHAL

Michele

mrosen@netvision.net.il



SCHEINDLIN

Dahlia

dahlia@greenbergresearch.com





5689 35 64_Re: Fear and violence in Hebron - If you shout fire in a theater0_13_JLCAA@aol.com28_Tue, 6 Aug 2002 11:15:17 EDT612_US-ASCII In a message dated 7/31/02 12:13:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time, DLerner569@aol.com writes:

<< There are two kinds of incidents, those spontaneously erupting from a specific circumstance, and those organized and planned as part of a strategic program. >>

There are more then two kinds of incidents.

There are incidents which occur due to incitement. Such incidents are not entirely spontaneous nor or they planned. But they happen because the leadership, in this case of the Hebron Jewish settler community, has created the conditions which sanction and applaud extreme behavior. [...] 5725 29 14_Re: No Subject0_14_Ohanka@aol.com28_Tue, 6 Aug 2002 13:05:16 EDT371_US-ASCII

In a message dated 8/6/02 9:59:57 AM, leodie@isdn.net.il writes:

<< I sent out emails to invite former Habonim members in Israel to a Kumsitz in Jerusalem on August 24th. The names below "bounced". Can anyone give me information as to their whereabouts?



>>

Dahlia Scheindlin is in Canada. Liz Kaufman is on Long Island. [...] 5755 149 27_Re: Saliency (my two cents)7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Tue, 06 Aug 2002 20:24:16 +0300322_UTF-8 You write that wanting to wipe Israel off the face of the Earth is not genocide. If we would wipe them off the face of the Earth would that be genocide? ----- Original Message ----- From: Richardrdsmith@aol.com To: habonet@shamash.org Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 3:25 AM Subject: Re: Saliency (my two cents) [...] 5905 24 18_what gives? sells?0_18_DLerner569@aol.com28_Tue, 6 Aug 2002 19:41:42 EDT622_US-ASCII I have read articles reporting on IDF personnel selling ammunition to Palestinians.

There have been no comments on Habonet. Nothing here in the papers about government (or even mob) response.

What gives. Doesn't this take protest against "occupation" too far?

Dennis

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 5930 19 23_Re: The Lightning Flash0_18_DLerner569@aol.com28_Tue, 6 Aug 2002 19:43:17 EDT395_US-ASCII Judy, Don't I deserve more from you than this?

Dennis

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 5950 29 23_Re: The Lightning Flash15_Judith R Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Tue, 06 Aug 2002 19:50:11 -0400332_us-ascii Dear Dennis, I am on vacation and picking up email only intermittantly, too infrequently for any real discussions. I appreciate your laying out your position in such depth and with such good humor. L;hitraot- Judy

DLerner569@aol.com wrote:

> Judy, > Don't I deserve more from you than this? > > Dennis > [...] 5980 65 22_Re: what gives? sells?0_15_DebALev@aol.com28_Tue, 6 Aug 2002 19:48:15 EDT396_US-ASCII In a message dated 8/6/2002 7:42:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time, DLerner569@aol.com writes:



> I have read articles reporting on IDF personnel selling ammunition to > Palestinians. > > There have been no comments on Habonet. Nothing here in the papers about > government (or even mob) response. > > What gives. Doesn't this take protest against "occupation" too far? > > [...] 6046 69 28_Fwd: Saliency (my two cents)0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com28_Tue, 6 Aug 2002 20:31:28 EDT17_US-ASCII

6116 123 16_Re: bounced mail4_sima19_simagr@telhai.ac.il30_Wed, 7 Aug 2002 12:30:48 +0200358_iso-8859-1 Brahm Goldfarb is in Toronto -Sima ----- Original Message ----- From: Leo Diesendruck To: HABONET (HABONET) Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 4:58 PM



I sent out emails to invite former Habonim members in Israel to a Kumsitz in Jerusalem on August 24th. The names below "bounced". Can anyone give me information as to their whereabouts? 6240 45 22_Re: what gives? sells?11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Wed, 07 Aug 2002 09:34:46 -0400332_us-ascii DLerner569@aol.com wrote:

> I have read articles reporting on IDF personnel selling ammunition to > Palestinians. > > There have been no comments on Habonet. Nothing here in the papers about > government (or even mob) response. > > What gives. Doesn't this take protest against "occupation" too far? > > Dennis [...] 6286 32 22_Re: what gives? sells?0_18_DLerner569@aol.com28_Wed, 7 Aug 2002 13:09:16 EDT384_US-ASCII Dear Noam, I assume that my "offensive" suggestion was that this sale was a "principled" action by those who see the road to peace being simply the road left by IDF and settlers leaving the other side of the Green line.

Is that more, or less offensive than the suggestion that the settlers were conspiring to get themselves shot so they could justify annexation? [...] 6319 71 28_Re: what gives? what smells?11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Wed, 07 Aug 2002 13:31:04 -0400572_us-ascii DLerner569@aol.com wrote:

> Dear Noam, > I assume that my "offensive" suggestion was that this sale was a "principled" > action by those who see the road to peace being simply the road left by IDF > and settlers leaving the other side of the Green line. > > Is that more, or less offensive than the suggestion that the settlers were > conspiring to get themselves shot so they could justify annexation? > > The purpose of my posting, for those evidently unable to interpret its > simplicity, was what do we know about these traitorous dogs, have they [...] 6391 46 22_Re: what gives? sells?11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Wed, 07 Aug 2002 13:49:33 -0400366_us-ascii DLerner569@aol.com wrote:

> ... I.E. mine was a call for information, not insult or > invective.

Dear Dennis,

I believe this is where I read about this. You can pony up the $2.95 or go to the library if you want the full text:

NY Times FOREIGN DESK | July 19, 2002, Friday SHOCK AT CHARGES ARABS WERE SOLD ISRAELI MUNITIONS [...] 6438 24 11_golly ollie11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Wed, 07 Aug 2002 14:39:54 -0400622_us-ascii I would have promised those terrorists a trip to Disneyland if it would have gotten the hostages released. I thank God they were satisfied with the missiles and we didn't have to go to that extreme. - Oliver North

>From the lighter side of the counterterrorism effort.

Noam

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 6463 24 15_Noam and Dennis14_Holtzer Family20_carmdave@urim.org.il30_Wed, 7 Aug 2002 20:45:08 +0200306_iso-8859-1 Dear Noam and Dennis,

I suggest that you two take yourselves off to a private chat room or email each other directly, thus sparing the rest of us your incessant flying barbs.... I, for one, am getting tired of your letters. I'm sure that there are many others in the same mindframe. [...] 6488 53 19_Re: Noam and Dennis0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com28_Wed, 7 Aug 2002 15:23:06 EDT408_US-ASCII In a message dated 8/7/02 3:04:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time, carmdave@urim.org.il writes:



> I suggest that you two take yourselves off to a private chat room or > email each other directly, thus sparing the rest of us your incessant flying > barbs.... I, for one, am getting tired of your letters. I'm sure that there > are many others in the same mindframe. > > Dave Holtzer > > [...] 6542 33 19_Re: Noam and Dennis0_18_DLerner569@aol.com28_Wed, 7 Aug 2002 15:47:31 EDT481_US-ASCII I don't keep track of who writes what. So I don't know whether Noam or Richard or Chaver Steve or Sue of Judy or... is more prone to invective. Since I don't keep track of who is on what "side" I cannot intend a barb to hit anyone. I take the issues on Habonet very seriously (how could one not?) but the person stuff seems well frankly, juvenile, sometimes entertaining (at someone else's expense) but most distracting from the thought process that I look for here. [...] 6576 67 23_Dave Holtzer and Dennis11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Wed, 07 Aug 2002 22:27:42 -0400526_us-ascii I was somewhat inclined to let this pass, or at least respond off line, but since it will piss off the censors I have to respond :-)

DLerner569@aol.com wrote:

> I don't keep track of who writes what. So I don't know whether Noam or > Richard or Chaver Steve or Sue of Judy or... is more prone to invective. > Since I don't keep track of who is on what "side" I cannot intend a barb to > hit anyone. I take the issues on Habonet very seriously (how could one not?) > but the person stuff seems well [...] 6644 85 64_Re: Fear and violence in Hebron - If you shout fire in a theater7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Thu, 08 Aug 2002 00:44:27 +0300529_ISO-8859-1 The Jews of Hebron are the first to make sure that life goes on an even keel and do their utmost to prevent extremist elements from causing trouble. Of the 4 Jews who were arrested in the wake of the funeral last week, 3 came from outside Hebron. I personally saw how Arabs threw down iron bars and rocks on the Jews below -- only then did soldiers and armed Jews shoot in the air to ward off the flying objects. I once attended the funeral of two of my son's friends in Hebron, murdered by terrorists, and I saw [...] 6730 117 19_Re: Noam and Dennis21_Tsippi (Frances) Rudy16_tsippi@attbi.com31_Thu, 08 Aug 2002 00:05:21 -0700642_us-ascii At 07:27 PM 8/7/02, Noam wrote:

>Since you don't keep track, perhaps you'll find it useful if I recap >for you. I responded substantively to your first note, adding >details about the news story you mentioned and happened to >remark that your notion that some soldier/settlers selling bullets >to terrorists was somehow taking 'protest against "occupation" >too far" was offensive and offered an alternative interpretation >of the facts. For some reason this inspired you to raise the issue of >insult and invective and to imply that I was too simple to understand >your message, and in addition you stated (incorrectly) [...] 6848 61 45_Hamas and Nazis, differences and similarities27_Maxene and Frank Perlmutter24_habesor@netvision.net.il31_Fri, 09 Aug 2002 07:49:24 +0200696_iso-8859-1

-----Original Message----- From: Richardrdsmith@aol.com [mailto:Richardrdsmith@aol.com] Sent: ţâ 06 ŕĺâĺńč 2002 02:25ţ To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: Re: Saliency (my two cents)

The word "genocide" should not be bandied about like this and neither should comparisons with Nazi Germany. No matter what you think of Hamas and/or Palestinians in general, they are not Nazis. The Nazis hatred of Jews was irrational, and lacked any reasonable explanation while the Palestinians' anti-Semitism may also be irrational it is explicable. I also have no doubt that many Palestinians, including Hamas, want to wipe Israel off the face of the Earth, that is not "genocide." [...] 6910 378 45_FW: The Blindness of American Jewish Liberals11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com30_Fri, 9 Aug 2002 07:22:08 -0700427_iso-8859-1

-----Original Message----- From: marcia plager [mailto:mplager@socal.rr.com] Sent: Friday, August 09, 2002 1:03 AM To: Avravraham and Malka Czyzyk; Eileen Kelmanson; Artie and Karen Azenzer; Max and Shelly Plager; Adi 2; Bob and Barbara Fruitman; Israel and Marlene Zakai; Barry Szemere; Carol Nalin; Danny and Chantal Leven; Geoff and Linda Remes Subject: Fw: The Blindness of American Jewish Liberals [...] 7289 70 16_KUmsitz Reminder0_13_SC523@aol.com28_Fri, 9 Aug 2002 10:20:55 EDT570_US-ASCII Chevreh,

For all of you in Israel, please don't forget about the Kumsitz in Yerushalayim on Sat. night August 24th beginning at 7 PM. In case you lost them, here is the email with the directions:

Dear Chevreh,

This is a difficult time for all in Israel, but I hope it is still appropriate to find a bit of hope in gathering together. As such, Ora Blau Maggen and I would like to invite Habochevreh from near and far to gather for a summer kumsitz in her garden in Yerushalayim on Saturday night, 24 August, at 7 PM. Bring instruments, [...] 7360 123 50_"We cannot let death have dominion" By Yossi Sarid11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Fri, 09 Aug 2002 13:33:25 -0400301_us-ascii Maybe I'm just a "blind American Jewish Liberal", but I think those who go on blindly killing, "murder for murder", "tak[ing] comfort in blood revenge, like two tribes of savages" as Sarid writes below who are blind. Perhaps it is the "eye for an eye" philosophy which has made them so? [...] 7484 43 41_Tsippi raises the level of the discussion11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Fri, 09 Aug 2002 13:39:50 -0400502_us-ascii "Tsippi (Frances) Rudy" wrote:

> Dear Noam, > > The above is just one more example of why I and apparently plenty of other members of the list have started deleting this type of message which, of course, you have every right to write and I have every right to delete: constant nitpicking, You said, I said. Who gives a shit? When you have something substantive to say, I might read your posting, but when you get into this infantile argumentative oneupsmanship, Bam, you're toast! [...] 7528 128 54_Re: "We cannot let death have dominion" By Yossi Sarid13_Kathee Lavine26_holycowfoods@earthlink.net31_Fri, 09 Aug 2002 15:08:10 -0700579_us-ascii I'm with you on that one, Noam.



At 01:33 PM 8/9/2002 -0400, you wrote: >Maybe I'm just a "blind American Jewish Liberal", but I think those >who go on blindly killing, "murder for murder", "tak[ing] comfort >in blood revenge, like two tribes of savages" as Sarid writes >below who are blind. Perhaps it is the "eye for an eye" philosophy >which has made them so? > >Noam > >p.s. Somebody please notify Dave Barry that "The blind American >Jewish Liberals" would be an excellent name for a rock band. > >+++ > >We cannot let death have dominion > >By [...] 7657 93 24_FW: From Majority Leader11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com30_Fri, 9 Aug 2002 17:18:59 -0700913_iso-8859-1



-----Original Message----- From: aviva shavit [mailto:shavita@tzora.co.il] Sent: Friday, August 09, 2002 6:37 AM To: Steve Klein; Sanford Rothman; Sam Mintz; Robert Breakstone; rena alisa; M K Zeiger; Lisa and Rob McCann; leslie; Kippy Rudash; John Winkler; irene mintz; Bob Phelan Subject: Fw: From Majority Leader





----- Original Message ----- From: "marcia plager" To: "Avravraham and Malka Czyzyk" ; "Eileen Kelmanson" ; "Artie and Karen Azenzer" ; "Max and Shelly Plager" ; "Adi 2" ; "Bob and Barbara Fruitman" ; "Israel and Marlene Zakai" ; "Barry Szemere" ; "Carol Nalin" ; "Danny and Chantal Leven" ; "Geoff and Linda Remes" [...] 7751 149 54_RE: "We cannot let death have dominion" By Yossi Sarid0_24_purpleroot8@netscape.net31_Fri, 09 Aug 2002 21:23:43 -0400418_iso-8859-1 Greetings from north of "the border": I'd like to thank Noam for forwarding Yossi Sarid's commentary piece. I agree with it, except for the stereotypic part on "savages."

I just want to make a brief point which might sound like a platitude. I feel everyone should act on what they think is important on Israel and the Palestinians. I don't see the sense of personalizing differences of opinion. [...] 7901 18 54_Re: "We cannot let death have dominion" By Yossi Sarid0_18_DLerner569@aol.com28_Fri, 9 Aug 2002 23:47:35 EDT369_US-ASCII Sol, Good to hear from you. Dennis

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 7920 249 103_=?iso-8859-1?B?4fLw6envOiBUaGUgQmxpbmRuZXNzIG9mIEFtZXJpY2FuIEpld2lzaCBM?= =?iso-8859-1?B?aWJlcmFscw==?=8_ericmoli25_ericmoli@netvision.net.il31_Sat, 10 Aug 2002 13:25:07 +0200707_iso-8859-1 Dear Dennis,

Thank you so much for publishing this important and informative article. I shall pass it on to my family and friends.

Sincerely yours, Mollie Marx ----- Original Message ----- From: Steve Klein To: Habonet Sent: Friday, August 09, 2002 4:22 PM Subject: FW: The Blindness of American Jewish Liberals





-----Original Message----- From: marcia plager [mailto:mplager@socal.rr.com] Sent: Friday, August 09, 2002 1:03 AM To: Avravraham and Malka Czyzyk; Eileen Kelmanson; Artie and Karen Azenzer; Max and Shelly Plager; Adi 2; Bob and Barbara Fruitman; Israel and Marlene Zakai; Barry Szemere; Carol Nalin; Danny and Chantal Leven; Geoff and Linda [...] 8170 18 114_=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=E1=F2=F0=E9=E9=EF:=20The=20Blindness=20of=20?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?American=20Jewish=20Liberals?=0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Sat, 10 Aug 2002 12:05:44 EDT423_US-ASCII Mollie, Thanks for the credit, but I think the article was posted by Steve Klein. Dennis

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 8189 56 114_=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=E1=F2=F0=E9=E9=EF:=20The=20Blindness=20of=20?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?American=20Jewish=20Liberals?=0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com29_Sat, 10 Aug 2002 13:21:54 EDT678_US-ASCII In a message dated 8/10/02 6:26:39 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ericmoli@netvision.net.il writes:



> Who would have thought that American Jews would be such a strong voice of > anti-Zionism?

Once again the mere criticism of Israel leads to the assumption of "anti-Zionism."

This load of crap disguising itself as something more is obviously a Republican attempt to attract the Jewish vote. Blaming the situation in Israel today on Bill Clinton is absurd by any standards, even Habonet standards. (Judy-perhaps this can be nominated for the most absurd comment.) Israel has been fighting terrorism for over 50 years, is Clinton responsible [...] 8246 37 82_Re: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=E1=F2=F0=E9=E9=EF?=: The Blindness of American Jewish Liberals15_Judith R Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Sat, 10 Aug 2002 14:12:07 -0400665_us-ascii Dear Richard,

Are you sure you want to waste this on an entry it into the "most absurd statement on Habonet" contest? Also accepting nominations are the "stupidest statement ", and "most blatantly false and misleading statement" categories.

Remember that the contest rules state that an actual Habonet participant (not a spouse, child or other interloper) has to construct the statement, rather than merely forwarding absurd, stupid, false or misleading statements found in articles. I've been on vacation so I haven't been reading Habonet as carefully as usual but I thought the nominated statement came from the forwarded material and [...] 8284 28 117_=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=E1=F2=F0=E9=E9=EF:=20The=20Blindness=20of=20?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?American=20=20Jewish=20Liberals?=0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com29_Sat, 10 Aug 2002 14:53:49 EDT12_US-ASCII LOL 8313 128 35_Rage against the dying of the light12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Sat, 10 Aug 2002 22:57:56 +0200585_us-ascii Haverot/im When Yossi Sarid quoted Dylan Thomas and added: For those of us who are not Arafat, Sharon and Fuad, it is important for death to mean something. Because we cannot allow death that kind of dominion. When death has meaning, life around here will have value, too I got that old rush. There were good people still around who believed. And the banners they held aloft were worthy because they took their bearings from poets, and 2 that made them mistrust politicians and murderers. You see, over time in my cynicism I'd begun to regard Sarid, too, while certainly [...] 8442 306 30_Seeking Muki and Pam on Grofit0_13_SC523@aol.com31_Sun, 11 Aug 2002 01:54:46 -0400274_iso-8859-1 Does anybody have a current address for Muki and Pam on Grofit who can write to them please and let them know about the Kumsitz on the 24th? All email addresses I have tried for them bounce back. I would appreciate your help on this. HEre is the info again: [...] 8749 93 24_American Jewish liberals16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Sun, 11 Aug 2002 09:45:43 -0400610_us-ascii Because I regard myself as a liberal American Jew, I take some umbrage at the broad-brush strokes that Steven MacDonald makes in the article forwarded to Habonet by Dennis. (Dennis, are you the guilty one here? I've lost the original thread of the article's passage. No mind.) To take MacDonald at face value, American Jews who are liberal 1) supported Bill Clinton's purported efforts to vitiate the State of Israel; 2) oppose what MacDonald identifies as "the conservative stance that was presented by AIPAC;" 3) fail to see the media bias against Jews and Israel that honest Christians see 4) [...] 8843 17 65_And yet another site on the Matzav... Americans for the third way11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org31_Sun, 11 Aug 2002 11:44:58 -0500438_us-ascii http://www.americansforathirdway.com/

I have not yet read through the site so I have no comment.

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 8861 35 115_=?ISO-8859-1?B?4fLw6envOiDh8vDp6e86IFRoZSBCbGluZG5lc3Mgb2YgQW1lcmk=?= =?ISO-8859-1?B?Y2FuIEpld2lzaCBMaWJlcmFscw==?=8_ericmoli25_ericmoli@netvision.net.il31_Sun, 11 Aug 2002 22:44:11 +0200410_ISO-8859-1 Dear Dennis,

Thanks for your correction. I sent this article off to my family, who live in the States. Their overwhelming opinion is that the article is superficial and out of it's depth.

Mollie ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, August 10, 2002 6:05 PM Subject: Re: áňđééď: The Blindness of American Jewish Liberals [...] 8897 90 30_Israeli honey for the New Year11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org31_Sun, 11 Aug 2002 20:02:59 -0500635_us-ascii Hi: > >With Israel Now (W.I.N.) in San Diego encourages people around the world to >purchase their Rosh Hashana honey from Israel. If one million people each >bought $12 worth of honey, we would have generated $12 million in business >for Israel's economy. Just think about it!" > >Below is a list of websites where a variety of honey purchases can be made >directly from Israel. Prices are reasonable and range from $1.79 - $29.99. >An expanded version of this honey list is available from zyroff@yahoo.com. > >Please help Israel by forwarding this message. > >Thank you. > >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >Hebron [...] 8988 860 23_Re: HABONET digest 232324_Suzanne Edmunds & Family19_edmunds@csurf.co.za31_Sat, 10 Aug 2002 16:51:19 +0200555_iso-8859-1





Please stop sending your emails to my email address. I could lie and say that my family is no longer active in the movement. But that would not be the truth.

THE TRUTH IS I'm appalled at the level of response to an article such as the recent excellent one by Yossi Sarid. I'm saddened that the reply was seemingly written by a bogeret of the movement. This is not the first time that I've had this reaction to your emails, but please help me make it the last. I'll have to find Yossi Sarid's work elsewhere. [...] 9849 24 34_Re: Israeli honey for the New Year12_Doug Greener25_ddwgreen@netvision.net.il31_Mon, 12 Aug 2002 08:33:14 +0300317_ISO-8859-1 What's nice about Roz's list is that you can purchase your honey based on your political inclinations.

Want to support the settlements - get your honey from Hebron and Shilo! Against the settlements - go with Yad Mordechai! Want to promote Jewish settlement in the Galil - go with More Netofa! [...] 9874 26 25_Americans for a Third Way16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Mon, 12 Aug 2002 08:55:17 -0400534_us-ascii In perusing the 3rd Way's website I find no mention anywhere of the organization's backers, bankrollers, sponsors or board of directors. I have the same complaint about the website (the so-called) "HonestReporting." Folks who present viewpoints anonymously are, in my view, somehow suspect.

I'm reminded of the 300 US rabbis who, 3 years ago sponsored a letter in the New York Times urging division of Jerusalem between Israel and the PA. But they wouldn't sign their names to the piece. High moral courage that. [...] 9901 19 17_Roses from Israel0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Mon, 12 Aug 2002 09:54:39 EDT297_US-ASCII You can also buy roses from Myron and Miriam Sofer - our own chaverim- from Moshav Sde Nitzan- for chagim or for shabbat- it would be nice to support them ( ask your synagogue or chavurah)...Their website is mnmrose.com or you can go to google and out in "roses from israel."- susie [...] 9921 28 41_Arab complaints about American journalism16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Tue, 13 Aug 2002 13:58:40 -0400734_us-ascii The following item is an entry submitted to the listserve of the Society

of Professional Journalists. ---------- A new link to identify a newly established list (with Palestine Media Watch and the National Association of Arab American Journalists on the

worst in American Journalism.

http://www.hanania.com/caajc/demagogues.htm

Bill O'Reilly is the first on it :)



------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 9950 18 21_Regarding Sam Flesher0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Tue, 13 Aug 2002 16:49:22 EDT546_US-ASCII I was wondering if anyone has heard how Sam is doing? I seem to get no response, and some others would like to know if there is anything we can do....Please post or email me privately if anyone knows- Thanks sue

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 9969 52 13_A novel idea!11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org31_Tue, 13 Aug 2002 21:21:35 -0500693_us-ascii Subject: Shape up for Israel From: "neil thalheim"

Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 17:34:39 -0400 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Importance: Normal



Do something good for yourself and for Israel: Join our weight-loss-for-Israel fundraiser.

Here s what to do: Get as many people as possible to sponsor your weight loss, per pound. For example $5 per pound. You may, of course, sponsor yourself. Ask your family, friends, co-workers to help sponsor you. Keep track of sponsor information on a sponsor sheet. Start losing weight! Stay motivated by accessing chat room where you can ask questions for our registered dietician! [...] 10022 18 16_Ain't Getting It12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Wed, 14 Aug 2002 08:48:43 +0200469_us-ascii Dear Habonet I've been diagnosed as an addict, yet for the last two days haven't gotten my copy of habonet digest. Can you fix my fix?

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 10041 16 21_Re: Roses from Israel0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Thu, 15 Aug 2002 10:56:44 EDT392_US-ASCII This was my last message from Habonet on 8/12. What's up?

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 10058 18 18_Not Receiving mail0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Fri, 16 Aug 2002 08:49:48 EDT487_US-ASCII I am not receiving mail from Habonet. Please explain. I sent a message to Habonet on 8/15 and did not receive my message in my mail box as usual. Dennis

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 10077 36 45_test - you can delete this without opening...0_18_Brianscoop@aol.com29_Fri, 16 Aug 2002 13:20:17 EDT82_US-ASCII test

----------------------------- Brian Cooper brianscoop@aol.com 10114 28 22_Israeli celebrations ?12_Meir Hurwitz21_meir_h@maccabi.org.il31_Sun, 18 Aug 2002 07:04:47 +0200676_windows-1255 Whatever happened to the Habonim celebrations in Israel ? I've been waiting for announcements.

Meir

------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------ If you would like to make money reading funny emails click here: http://www.bustyourgut.com/in.php?account=230166







------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 10143 59 26_Re: Israeli celebrations ?0_14_KBob24@aol.com29_Sun, 18 Aug 2002 09:42:03 EDT425_US-ASCII In a message dated 8/18/02 12:08:37 AM Eastern Daylight Time, meir_h@maccabi.org.il writes:



> Whatever happened to the Habonim celebrations in Israel ? > I've been waiting for announcements. > > Meir

Hi Meir:

At the Habonin Dror Foundation Executive Committee meeting in September (next month) we will be finalizing a schedule. I will certainly report back to Habonet at that time. [...] 10203 53 103_=?iso-8859-1?B?4fLw6envOiBBcmFiIGNvbXBsYWludHMgYWJvdXQgQW1lcmljYW4gam91?= =?iso-8859-1?B?cm5hbGlzbQ==?=8_ericmoli25_ericmoli@netvision.net.il31_Sun, 18 Aug 2002 19:31:52 +0200533_iso-8859-1 Dear Elihu,

Thank you, thank you for passing on the following site to all of us. I have already managed to read a bit of it, but not to worry! I've put it in our bookmarks, so I can go into it, whenever I wish. It's not only serious, but it also has humor (re: hanania's article on his role as a stand-up comic. His comic model is J. Seinfield. The SCOOP is, as Hanania REPORTS it is that Jerry Seinfield's mother was born in Syria, which makes Jerry HALF ARAB. How I wish that I had Seinfield's Email address [...] 10257 277 51_Neutrality isn't enough for American Jews/ Ha'aretz11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org31_Sun, 18 Aug 2002 21:33:47 -0500472_us-ascii Neutrality isn't enough for American Jews

By Nathan Guttman

Washington - If there is one subject that American Jews have been losing sleep over in the last year, it is Israel's public image as reflected in the American media and as it is absorbed by public opinion. This subject surfaces again and again at Jewish gatherings, in synagogues and in private conversations, and the overall sense is that more can be done to improve Israel's image. [...] 10535 68 39_Large anti-Israel rally planned in D.C.11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org31_Mon, 19 Aug 2002 16:29:34 -0500727_us-ascii Large Anti-Israel Rally Planned In Washington Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 13:49:05 EDT

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=28664 Large Anti-Israel Rally Planned In Washington

The white supremacy group National Alliance is planning a large demonstration-and-rock-concert entitled "Rock Against Israel" this weekend outside the Capitol building in Washington, D.C. The organizers are claiming that the rally will be the "largest gathering of white nationalists at the U.S. Capitol in history." The East Coast Anti-Fascist Network is one of a few left-wing pro-PA groups that have come out flatly against the Nazi rally. The group notes that while Nazi assemblies in other cities have been "shut [...] 10604 234 25_Toronto Jews' Open Letter0_24_purpleroot8@netscape.net31_Mon, 19 Aug 2002 19:09:32 -0400553_iso-8859-1 Hello,

I would like to thank Amnon for his contribution in opposition to the politics of death. I believe in mourning all innocent death and in celebrating the life that once was there. In a sense, each one of us could have been a Palestinian. Any one of us could have been a Palestinian on the West Bank. It's a matter of where the dice fall. I don't believe that the existance of an individual Jew was ordained in heaven. Think of it. A sperm meets an egg in one family, culture, country, religion, etc, etc. It could have been [...] 10839 44 29_Re: Toronto Jews' Open Letter12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Tue, 20 Aug 2002 08:23:47 +0200172_us-ascii Hi Shloime, Thanks for your kind words. Now a question: do you think that non-Canadians should sign the non-petition?

b'yedidut

Amnon



10884 45 47_FWD: Did we learn anything from September 11th?11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org31_Tue, 20 Aug 2002 16:32:47 -0500426_us-ascii

: Did We Learn Anything From Sept. 11? - By Michael Freund From: "MidEastTruth.com"

Did we learn anything from Sept. 11? By Michael Freund

The Chicago Sun-Times August 18, 2002

Though less than a year has passed since 15 Saudi nationals joined four other hijackers in wreaking havoc on Sept. 11, America is now set to train yet another cadre of Saudi airmen. [...] 10930 221 29_Re: Toronto Jews' Open Letter0_24_purpleroot8@netscape.net31_Tue, 20 Aug 2002 18:02:15 -0400357_iso-8859-1 Dear Amnon,

Thanks very much for your reply. Needless to say, no one needs to be a Canadian citizen to sign on to the Toronto Jewish letter below. Write to Justine Lewis at JCJLEWIS@CHASS.UTORONTO.CA I'm hoping for an answer soon as to how the letter will be circulated, but obviously this is something you can write Justine as well. [...] 11152 50 20_Fwd: 40 grandmothers12_David Fleiss20_dfleiss@pipeline.com31_Tue, 20 Aug 2002 20:30:24 -0400546_us-ascii

>Many volunteers are circulating this letter in Israel, as well as in major >cities in the U S and Canada. If your organization can be of any help with >this, we would be grateful. > > >FORTY GRANDMOTHERS >DEAR SAVTA: >We would like 40 grandmothers to sign this statement, and send it to our >leaders in the Knesset and in the Palestinian Authority. Send it to as >many savtot as you know, so that our 40 may grow to 400 and even 4,000! If >you agree to sign this statement, send it to POB 8083, Jerusalem, 91080 or >log on [...] 11203 70 19_RE: 40 grandmothers11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Tue, 20 Aug 2002 23:35:00 -0700709_us-ascii David

The Nazis had us go passively as sheep to the slaughter.

NEVER AGAIN!

Steve

-----Original Message----- From: owner-habonet@shamash.org [mailto:owner-habonet@shamash.org]On Behalf Of David Fleiss Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2002 5:30 PM To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: Fwd: 40 grandmothers





>Many volunteers are circulating this letter in Israel, as well as in major >cities in the U S and Canada. If your organization can be of any help with >this, we would be grateful. > > >FORTY GRANDMOTHERS >DEAR SAVTA: >We would like 40 grandmothers to sign this statement, and send it to our >leaders in the Knesset and in the Palestinian Authority. [...] 11274 862 15_FW: Anti Israel11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Wed, 21 Aug 2002 05:51:16 -0700692_iso-8859-1



-----Original Message----- From: marcia plager [mailto:mplager@socal.rr.com] Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2002 8:45 PM To: Steve Klein Subject: Fw: Anti Israel





----- Original Message ----- From: "Goldwasser" To: "m & m goldwasser" Sent: Sunday, August 18, 2002 8:57 AM Subject: Fw: Anti Israel



> > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: ; ; > ; ; > > Sent: Sunday, August 18, 2002 6:13 PM > Subject: Fwd: Anti Israel > > > > > > > 12137 35 19_RE: 40 grandmothers12_David Fleiss20_dfleiss@pipeline.com31_Wed, 21 Aug 2002 09:50:03 -0400462_- Steve,

When two people disagree about something, there is usually room to discuss the disagreement.

Calling the person with whom one disagrees a Nazi (or suggesting a similarity with Nazis) is hardly conducive to discussion.

In other words, go to hell.

David



Steve Klein wrote:

> David > > The Nazis had us go passively as sheep to the > slaughter. > > NEVER AGAIN! > > Steve [...] 12173 157 28_RE: American Jewish liberals11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Wed, 21 Aug 2002 07:32:00 -0700539_us-ascii Dear Elihu and Richard (Smith)

It wasn't Dennis Lerner that sent the article along; it was me. I, too, have been a "Liberal American Jew" all my life, as far as I can tell. And proud of it. Put my body on the line more than a few times, and haven't been sorry I did. It was easy to define what a Liberal was in the past: issues were a lot clearer and a lot less fracteous, apparently. Something else has changed. Being Liberal used to mean, for a large part, fighting for someone else's rights, and for someone else's [...] 12331 47 28_Re: American Jewish liberals0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com29_Wed, 21 Aug 2002 11:21:03 EDT576_US-ASCII I fear I don't understand why you have addressed your newest post to me. I have never called myself a liberal and would feel uncomfortable with that label beyond its nineteenth century definition. My criticism of the article you sent was that is was, as I recall, a load of rubbish. It blamed Clinton for the crisis in the Middle East today. While I don't know the author, this Clinton bashing is familiar to anyone with knowledge of current events. There is a group of people with an irrational hatred of Clinton that blame him for everything from original sin [...] 12379 164 3_law16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Wed, 21 Aug 2002 11:23:09 -0400714_us-ascii Survey: Half Israeli Jews believe public officials regard lawbreaking lightly

------------------------------------------------------------------------

41% of haredi Jews and 52% of Arabs would take the law into their own hands in matters of faith.

by David Hayoun Globes / www.globes.co.il - on August 19, 2002

A University of Haifa survey of Israeli public attitudes towards the legal system found that half of the Jewish public believes public authorities do not regard obeying the law as an important norm. Prof. Arie Ratner and Dr. Dana Yagil conducted the survey in 2000-2002, which included three annual surveys and thousands of people from all populations segments [...] 12544 31 28_Re: American Jewish liberals14_Holtzer Family20_carmdave@urim.org.il31_Wed, 21 Aug 2002 19:10:18 +0200484_iso-8859-1 Steve - your first and formost mistake is assuming that the Palestinians are the underdog. This position is one that they have worked on for years and years, started by the Jordanians and Egyptians (who "ruled" them for years and held them in poverty to use them as a playing card in world politics). You didn't ever hear a Palestinian demonstrating for statehood against the Egyptians, did you? Damn straight you didn't - they would have been hanged the next minute. [...] 12576 362 17_we are people too13_moshe sheskin24_moshes7@netvision.net.il55_Wed, 21 Aug 2002 18:21:38 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time)587_iso-8859-1 A few weeks ago I was asked to write an editorial opinion for the London Jewish Press. L We Are People Too by Moshe Sheskin August 21, 2002

A number of years ago, during a stint in the Israel army reserves, I was posted at one of the bridges over the Jordan River. It was my unit’s responsibility to examine the travelers, coming from Jordan, prior to their entry into Israel and the disputed territories in order to prevent contraband from entering the country, especially detonators. As our commanding officer remarked, “Remember, if a bomb goes off due to your [...] 12939 260 21_Re: we are people too15_Judith R Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Wed, 21 Aug 2002 18:56:31 -0400621_iso-8859-1 Yasher Koach! Judy Gelman

moshe sheskin wrote:

> A few weeks ago I was asked to write an editorial opinion for the London Jewish Press.L We Are People Too by Moshe Sheskin August 21, 2002

A number of years ago, during a stint in the Israel army reserves, I was posted at one of the bridges over the Jordan River. It was my unit’s responsibility to examine the travelers, coming from Jordan, prior to their entry into Israel and the disputed territories in order to prevent contraband from entering the country, especially detonators. As our commanding officer remarked, “Remember, if [...] 13200 37 21_Re: we are people too0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Wed, 21 Aug 2002 19:39:54 EDT510_US-ASCII Moshe- You hit the nail on the head. I have asked others whose philosophies and opinions I value to answer me how do we ( you) or all of us stay "decent" trying to avoid falliing into the abyss of hate and disgust, when our brethren are being blown apart by people who have no regard for life. No one has answered me with a compelling argument, and I am also filled with anger and more, I feel so much for those who don't have a choice but to go along with the madness. I hate Arafat who sits on [...] 13238 32 11_Old Friends27_Maxene and Frank Perlmutter24_habesor@netvision.net.il31_Thu, 22 Aug 2002 07:09:08 +0200658_iso-8859-1 A while back there was a discussion about Israel Shamir on this list. I remarked at the time at how much Shamir's writings resembled the writings of the Nazis. Just recently the following by Shamir appeared on the web.

http://www.arabnews.com/Article.asp?ID=17963

I especially like the part which read:

"It does not mean that one should run forward and endorse the NA get-together. But these people should be worked with, not rejected out of hand. Some of their erroneous ideas could be corrected. If they would just say "affirmation of European legacy" instead of "white supremacy" you would discover that the arguments [...] 13271 17 28_Re: American Jewish liberals0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Thu, 22 Aug 2002 09:37:05 EDT398_US-ASCII Steve, my friend. Very well thought, and very well said. Dennis

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 13289 28 28_Re: American Jewish liberals0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Thu, 22 Aug 2002 09:45:21 EDT557_US-ASCII I maybe missing something, but it seems to me that a number of us here on Habonet have a real penchant for focusing on some tangential element of a posting and making it the center of something that too often comes close to hysteria. I don't mind the focus on the tangential, except that it so often displaces any meaningful discussion of the central theme or idea of the posting. We take on the author, the party, the footnotes, the typeface -- is that because there is broadspread agreement with the central idea? If so, can we just say so. [...] 13318 24 28_Re: American Jewish liberals0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Thu, 22 Aug 2002 09:55:06 EDT538_US-ASCII Dear David, Speaking of "get real" the notion of 'underdog' carries with it elements of victimization, and inequality in position or power in comparison to a competitor. You may think of it literally as the bottom dog in a dog fight, lying on its back, teeth bared, but limited to defense. Or you can think of it in its sexual political context, where the underdog is the recipient of the sexual aggression of the 'overdog' Either way it doesn't seem a distortion to refer to the Palestinians as perceived underdogs. Dennis [...] 13343 46 28_Re: American Jewish liberals0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Thu, 22 Aug 2002 10:55:29 EDT497_US-ASCII In a message dated 8/22/2002 6:55:45 AM Pacific Daylight Time, DLerner569@aol.com writes:



> Either way it doesn't seem a > distortion to refer to the Palestinians as perceived underdogs. > Dennis > As were the Jews during WW2- or Native Americans, or Blacks..The real point is "where do we go from here"-- and somehow, once thses groups stopped "blaming" and focused on their own strengths and a positive goal, they got up, shook themselves off, and went on with it...susie 13390 24 28_Re: American Jewish liberals14_Holtzer Family20_carmdave@urim.org.il31_Thu, 22 Aug 2002 17:35:54 +0200441_iso-8859-1 Dennis, Like I said before. Get real. Your focal point is too near sighted. Historically (and I don't think the history of the "Palestinian people" goes back very far) and demographically, they simply ain't the underdog. Their media has succeeded beyond their wildest dreams, making them look like the underdog, even to educated people like you and not just the masses who couldn't find Israel on a map. I repeat - get real. [...] 13415 22 0_11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Thu, 22 Aug 2002 09:53:03 -0700566_iso-8859-1 Judy and Suzie

Thank you for sending along the Sheskin article. It reverberates with a lost innocence and a truth that, unfortunately has caught up with us.

Thanks also for staying sane in insane times.

Steve

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 13438 23 15_Moshe's article15_Judith R Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Thu, 22 Aug 2002 13:25:54 -0400579_us-ascii Dear Steve- Huh?!? I didn't send Moshe's article; Moshe did. I just said I thought he did a good job with it. It is really written from the heart and seems to represent the position of the Regular Yossi Israeli very well. B'shalom- Judy



------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 13462 300 16_Intifada Lessons13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il31_Thu, 22 Aug 2002 21:55:53 +0200425_windows-1255 Lessons of Intifada II? Alon Ben-Meir





(UPI) No one can predict with certainty that the second intifada will soon be over, but one consequence has already emerged: An overwhelming majority of Palestinians, along with most of their leaders, have concluded that the intifada has been nothing less than a political and economic disaster and continuing it will have calamitous dimensions. [...] 13763 49 20_Re: Intifada Lessons14_Holtzer Family20_carmdave@urim.org.il31_Thu, 22 Aug 2002 22:08:43 +0200162_windows-1255 Great article, Jon. Illuminates the truth. Now, let's the DJIA up a few hundred (or thousand) points and We'll all feel a lot better.....

Dave 13813 40 20_Re: Intifada Lessons13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il31_Thu, 22 Aug 2002 22:10:11 +020039_windows-1255 Thanks, but what's a DJIA? 13854 42 20_Re: Intifada Lessons14_Holtzer Family20_carmdave@urim.org.il31_Thu, 22 Aug 2002 22:25:12 +020059_windows-1255 Jeez..... Dow Jones Industrial Average

13897 117 29_We Are (a liberal) People Too12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Thu, 22 Aug 2002 22:43:21 +0200591_us-ascii Haverim/ot To enter the recent discussion without repeating my thoughts, let alone my feelings, on the substance of the rights and the wrongdoing in the Palestinian-Israeli conflict is not easy, but I have other fish to fry today. I'd like to take up what seems to be a common thread to Steve Klein and to Moshe Sheshkin: Liberalism. But first an expression of pride in habonet for bringing together the thinking of diverse and committed haverim/ot on really cardinal issues, and you two, even if I don't always agree with what you write always provide me with the final words [...] 14015 29 14_Re: No Subject0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Thu, 22 Aug 2002 15:45:12 EDT548_US-ASCII Sreve- lehefech- I don't feel sane at all- I feel intensly insane - angry, and "want to kill"... Every time there is an inciident, my friends ( AND family) all scream out that Israel should just "nuke 'em"- and my angleic side tries to arugue but my other side agrees and wants all of the "cockroaches " ( one name my sister calls them) "deleted" from this earth. It doesn't matter to me anymore the reasons or excuses or "trying to understand them--I fell too many of us who yearn for peace still have their heads in the sand. THESE [...] 14045 35 28_Re: American Jewish liberals0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Thu, 22 Aug 2002 15:50:30 EDT631_US-ASCII Dear Susie, Would that were true. I observe that it is very hard to let go of one's underdog status. Americans of African extraction (AOAE's) in large numbers would rather remain victims and dependent on dominant culture guilt, than face the challenges from difference we all face. Natives are completely F___ed up. There is no satisfactory accommodation or relationship possible that honors both cultures, or ties to only one. As for us. No matter how high our percentile ranking in whatever category you choose, we are awaiting victimhood, expecting it, or calling "fools" those that are blind to forever fragility [...] 14081 22 20_Re: Intifada Lessons0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Thu, 22 Aug 2002 15:51:12 EDT515_US-ASCII It was a great article written by an Israeli from his POV (point-of-view)- How many Palestnians would really agree with it!? And if they did, why aren't they doing anything about it. It seems to me that the rumblings of re-electing Arafat just goes to show you they really don't want a change or an end to all of this. This guy with TRILLIONS of dollars in various banks and a family living in Paris and lets his people suffer like they do- all I can say is "OY"-- Golda would give him a spanking!..s [...] 14104 32 28_Re: American Jewish liberals0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Thu, 22 Aug 2002 16:01:45 EDT621_US-ASCII Dearest Dave,

I assure you that despite the virtualness of today's microprocessor world, I am real. So is the plight of the Palestinians. It isn't PR BS that they have been subjected to the Turks, the Egyptians, Heshamites, English, and Israeli's in succession. They have been used and abused to no end by their Arab brothers. They have been shamelessly duped and manipulated by their own leadership. They are in a dreadfully inferior political and military position in their effort to become a nation. They are associated with the designation 'terrorist' and so are among the popular scourge of the [...] 14137 49 33_Re: We Are (a liberal) People Too0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Thu, 22 Aug 2002 16:33:14 EDT617_US-ASCII Dear Amnon, I have by turns been labeled, or have labeled myself as liberal, radical, revolutionary, and conservative. As a result I'm not sure labels have an important contribution to make to any discussion.

I prefer to hearken to the words of my father who often said, "Son, when you're green you're growing and when you're ripe you're rotten." Since change is the one constant I tend to see things like the looming wholesale disaster associated with global capitalism as an artifact of holding onto one model too long. The inherent defect in every constructed system are gradually refined and [...] 14187 29 28_Re: American Jewish liberals0_12_SHX2@aol.com29_Thu, 22 Aug 2002 16:41:59 EDT692_US-ASCII

In a message dated 8/22/02 3:52:46 PM, DLerner569@aol.com writes:

<< a one time confession let me say that I do not understand why victims are frozen in that relationship to others, >>

Dear Dennis,

Victims like victimhood because the victim story justifies hatred, and people(s) like to hate.

Cheers.

Steve Hancoff

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 14217 61 14_Re: No Subject0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Thu, 22 Aug 2002 17:02:34 EDT581_US-ASCII Dear susie, I fear you believe too much of what you hear and see. In personal and even in much of business this approach works fine, but in national politics (statecraft) it only leads to frustration and disillusionment. Over and over I have expressed optimism in the face of seeming intransigence and insane terror. As a lawyer I know that the parties must get to the point where they are 'ready' to accept a possible solution as opposed to their objective. One can observe in the levels of rhetoric and nature of actions the movement toward the possible. Often the [...] 14279 21 28_Re: American Jewish liberals0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Thu, 22 Aug 2002 17:07:05 EDT326_US-ASCII Geez, I'm glad I asked. That's pretty depressing. Do you think people like to hate? I understand the drive to create us-them perceptions, and their usefulness in maintaining those in power, but do you think that operates on the individual level? If so, what utility does it have for our (human) survival? Dennis [...] 14301 27 28_Re: American Jewish liberals14_Holtzer Family20_carmdave@urim.org.il31_Fri, 23 Aug 2002 00:15:11 +0200578_iso-8859-1 Dennis, sorry, but I don't get it. To a large extent, we are the product of our own acheivement. The irresponsible and theiving leadership the Palestinians have are the result of their own will. The path of death and destruction is the path they chose. Arafat had his chance for a viable state with Barak and decided on violence instead. They got what they asked for. Tough shit. If so many hundreds of Israeli's hadn't had to pay the ultimate price and so many thousands horribly wounded I might have some sympathy for those poor bastards. Meanwhile I stick to [...] 14329 25 28_Re: American Jewish liberals0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Thu, 22 Aug 2002 17:55:56 EDT568_US-ASCII Dave, I make no plea for sympathy on behalf of the Palestinians,, although I think your generalizations are a hard distortion that gets in the way. All I am noting is that by my definition these folks are underdogs. If you care to challenge my definition you are free to do so. I do not embrace these underdogs, but I agree with Steve that as liberals (personally I prefer, Ethical Humanists) one feels empathy for the plight - including the proclivity to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory - of the Palestinian people. My empathy ends where my nose [...] 14355 32 14_Re: No Subject0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Thu, 22 Aug 2002 17:59:58 EDT573_US-ASCII

In a message dated 8/22/02 2:03:33 PM, DLerner569@aol.com writes:

<< I hope in some way this helps. >>

Right now, nothing helps. I grew up believing that government was "of the people"- both here and in Israel- or any other democratic place. I don't really believe - deep down - that Arafat and the PLO and Hamas or Jihad are "of the Palestinian people" who, I think want a life and not death. But who knows. I DO know that daily, weekly, people are being blown up on their way to go grocery shopping, visit relatives, or get a check-up [...] 14388 23 28_Re: American Jewish liberals0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Thu, 22 Aug 2002 18:03:57 EDT540_US-ASCII I think Steve has a point in that the downtrodden have to blame someone and hate is the vehicle they use. I feel it myself- although I am not downtrodden- but it makes it easier to "hate" when you want to avoid taking action on yourself. The Germans certainly did that with the Jews in pre-WW 2 Germany. As far as Native Americnas- well, here i n California and Nevada- they are doing pretty well with the Casinos....earing millions to help themselves....and Colin Powell and Oprah Winfrey (blacks) ain't too bad either.....s [...] 14412 945 36_Scholars for pece in the Middle East11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org31_Thu, 22 Aug 2002 18:00:36 -0500715_ISO-8859-1

For those of you looking for another outlet or information...

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------------------------------------------------------------------------

There are 4 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. ACTION ALERT: Teach America's Youth The Truth...The situation at CCSU From: Friendlymensch@aol.com 2. Impact of McKinney Loss Worries Some Democrats: Concern of Black/Jewish Tensions From: Friendlymensch@aol.com 3. The Metamorphosis of the Secretary of the Arab Psychiatrists Association From: Friendlymensch@aol.com 4. From: Ron Schleifer [...] 15358 32 24_My liberal friend Dennis15_Judith R Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Fri, 23 Aug 2002 00:34:43 -0400575_us-ascii Dear Dennis,

I really don't understand how your thinking works. Just before I left on vacation, you were arguing that the Palestinians should be expelled from the West Bank and sent to live in Jordan. I tune back in 3 weeks later and now see that you have become the champion of the plight of the poor romanticized Palestinian underdog. I don't understand where you are coming from or how you get from point a to point q in your reasoning. You don't owe me an explanation Maybe consistency is too much to ask for, especally from a listserve participant. [...] 15391 99 28_Re: American Jewish liberals10_Jon Zatkin26_jzatkin@public2.bta.net.cn31_Fri, 23 Aug 2002 20:23:22 +0800595_iso-8859-1 Chaver Dennis,

You wrote: > I assure you that despite the virtualness of today's microprocessor world, I > am real. So is the plight of the Palestinians. It isn't PR BS that they > have been subjected to the Turks, the Egyptians, Heshamites, English, and > Israeli's in succession. They have been used and abused to no end by their > Arab brothers. They have been shamelessly duped and manipulated by their own > leadership. They are in a dreadfully inferior political and military > position in their effort to become a nation. They are associated with the > designation [...] 15491 46 16_intifada lessons4_Stan17_stan@inter.net.il31_Fri, 23 Aug 2002 13:34:27 +0200132_iso-8859-1 Jonathan I agree with your conclusions and suggestions to the Palistinians but how do we get the PALISTIANIANS to agree?? 15538 53 12_stock market4_Stan17_stan@inter.net.il31_Fri, 23 Aug 2002 17:32:56 +0200168_iso-8859-1 to dave h are you worring about the affect the market has on the financial world or have kibbutz members started playing the market ?





15592 50 16_Re: stock market14_Holtzer Family20_carmdave@urim.org.il31_Fri, 23 Aug 2002 17:56:21 +0200207_iso-8859-1 Stan - the US market affects us all over the world. A global recovery would be real nice especially if it starts to lead Israel out of recession. I wish I could play the market........

Dave 15643 74 28_Re: My liberal friend Dennis0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Fri, 23 Aug 2002 11:13:02 EDT507_US-ASCII Dear Judy, I hope your vacation was restful and happy.

I joined a conversation regarding the tension liberal Jews feel between their natural rooting and sympathy for an underdog and the fact that the underdog in this case is an active enemy of the State of Israel. My participation in that conversation was only to consider the nature of the term 'underdog' as an abstraction. I don't believe I expressed sympathy for the position of Palestinians working for the destruction of Israel. [...] 15718 42 20_Re: intifada lessons13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il31_Fri, 23 Aug 2002 18:41:13 +0200111_iso-8859-1 Beats me. I only copied the article. Hey, if I knew what the solution to this mess was, I'd sell it. 15761 56 28_Re: American Jewish liberals0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Fri, 23 Aug 2002 11:44:06 EDT643_US-ASCII Dear Jon,

Being able to see the plight of the Palestinians, both imposed from without and chosen from within, does not mean that their aspirations are Israel's problem singly or disproportionately.

As a personal matter -- not a position of advocacy -- I think both their and our attachment to specific pieces of geography is senseless. God gave us a promise of land, Abraham said, 'this is it' . It was already occupied. The boundaries of political and military control have varied widely through the millennia. Others have been present sometimes ruling, sometimes being ruled, sometime simply co-existing. Who can [...] 15818 24 28_Re: American Jewish liberals15_Judith R Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Fri, 23 Aug 2002 12:05:44 -0400340_us-ascii Dear Dennis,

Please take some time to go back and reread the Tanakh. Large parts of it are written as if it would might as a deed for Eretz Yisrael. Now, how much you think that the words come from "God" is up to you. How much you think we should pay attention to it is up to you. But it is there is parchment and ink. [...] 15843 72 28_Re: American Jewish liberals15_Judith R Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Fri, 23 Aug 2002 12:22:42 -0400341_us-ascii Dear Dennis,

Please take some time to go back and reread the Tanakh. Large parts of it are written as if it were meant as a deed for Eretz Yisrael. Now, how much you think that the words come from "God" is up to you. How much you think we should pay attention to it is up to you. I But it is there in parchment and ink. [...] 15916 118 28_RE: American Jewish liberals11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Fri, 23 Aug 2002 22:12:47 -0700711_iso-8859-1 Jon

Hi, it's me. Steve.

OK. Given the situation (and its history,--- what do you suggest?

Steve

-----Original Message----- From: owner-habonet@shamash.org [mailto:owner-habonet@shamash.org]On Behalf Of Jon Zatkin Sent: Friday, August 23, 2002 5:23 AM To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: Re: American Jewish liberals



Chaver Dennis,

You wrote: > I assure you that despite the virtualness of today's microprocessor world, I > am real. So is the plight of the Palestinians. It isn't PR BS that they > have been subjected to the Turks, the Egyptians, Heshamites, English, and > Israeli's in succession. They have been used and abused to no end by their [...] 16035 30 28_Re: American Jewish liberals0_19_simagr@telhai.ac.il31_Sat, 24 Aug 2002 09:05:55 +0300377_windows-1255 OK, I admit it, I didn't follow this whole thread, but this caught my eye.

> So I ask you: based on your understanding of the > Palestinians plight as stated above, and the refusal > of one Israeli government after another to do the > same (or ofer even the slightest genuine concession > to their "legitimate aspirations", where do we go from > here? [...] 16066 45 16_don't change D L4_Stan17_stan@inter.net.il31_Sat, 24 Aug 2002 10:47:31 +0200136_iso-8859-1 I think that the solving of our problems will come only thru logic and reason not thru emotion and passion. D.L. don't change 16112 577 20_FW: E-mail addresses15_Leo Diesendruck18_leodie@isdn.net.il31_Sat, 24 Aug 2002 12:30:08 +0200591_us-ascii







-----Original Message----- From: telman [mailto:telman1@zahav.net.il] Sent: 21 July 2002 13:58 To: Judy & Leo Diesendruck Subject: E-mail addresses







Dear Leo,





Our e-mail address is: telman1@zahav.net.il

E-mail for Muki and Pam may be sent to: pammit@writeme.com





Please give our warm regards to Judy and our best wishes for a complete recovery.





We are going to the States at the end of July and will return August 26th. Have a good summer. [...] 16690 23 20_Re: don't change D L0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Sat, 24 Aug 2002 09:17:02 EDT350_US-ASCII Stan, I thought change was the only constant. I don't think the two states are incompatible. You might say I am passionate about following a path of reason and logic. I appreciate the encouragement you offer. I wouldn't/couldn't be here if it weren't for the rest of Habonet. That's where all the great stuff comes from. Thanks, Dennis [...] 16714 340 31_We Are a liberal People Too (2)12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Sat, 24 Aug 2002 18:28:38 +0200597_us-ascii



Haverot/im Yesterday I wrote "More tomorrow on this and a cautionary note to myself on the dangers of mixing ideology with science and rats' tails." On a recent trip to Neot Kedumim Helen Frenkley took my in-laws and me on a tour of that incredible turn-on of a place. Helen who was on the 10th workshop is the director of N.K. I've heard her hadracha on our people's roots and its trees in the biblical substrata of this beloved land many times. She never fails to unearth yet another intriguing facet of biblical, talmudic, agro-geologic or historic lore. It makes [...] 17055 49 35_Re: We Are a liberal People Too (2)0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Sat, 24 Aug 2002 12:13:34 EDT628_US-ASCII In a message dated 8/24/2002 8:27:15 AM Pacific Daylight Time, amriv@netvision.net.il writes:



> The ultimate medical cure is Attitude

Deepak Chopra says the same thing in his books- He became curious when he became a doctor as to why some patients with terminal cancers would survive, and some with seemingly curable ones would perish. He noticed that much had to do with "attitude"- And, is not our entire Zionsit dream not based on "Im TIRTZU, ain zu agadah?"..and now, western medicine is "checking out" and not condemning Eastern medicine- which- it seems - is based to a great degree on [...] 17105 121 16_re Sue's posting7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Sat, 24 Aug 2002 23:05:58 +0300574_iso-8859-1 Sue, Palestinians are not being blown up every day or any day. There have been tragic cases where it happened by accident that in getting a terrorist there was "collateral damage," a most unfortunate term, where innocents were killed. These cases are few and very far between. Walking down any street in Jerusalem you will see Palestinian Arabs from the "other side" sharing the sidewalk and street with you -- with obviously no fear for their safety. I, on the other hand, as a Jew and an Israeli, could not even think of ever going into an Arab village or [...] 17227 90 35_Re: We Are a liberal People Too (2)7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Sun, 25 Aug 2002 08:51:57 +0300402_iso-8859-1 Sue, very interesting comment. I have a friend who is a surgeon, and he told me once that he refuses to operate on a patient if the patient says he doesn't think he will survive. It's like a self-fulfilling prophesy. pearl ----- Original Message ----- From: LiberHawke@aol.com To: habonet@shamash.org Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2002 7:13 PM Subject: Re: We Are a liberal People Too (2) [...] 17318 45 8_attitude11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Sun, 25 Aug 2002 10:54:42 -0400323_us-ascii

Since Sue has started us down the path of applying this principle to the matsav, I'd like to continue this thread.

What are we to conclude about those who feel there is no possibility of negotiation with the Palestinians? Are they taking actions which lead to the fulfillment of this prophesy? [...] 17364 51 49_short memories (was Re: American Jewish liberals)11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Sun, 25 Aug 2002 11:06:26 -0400555_us-ascii simagr@telhai.ac.il wrote:

> OK, I admit it, I didn't follow this whole thread, but this caught my eye. > > > So I ask you: based on your understanding of the > > Palestinians plight as stated above, and the refusal > > of one Israeli government after another to do the > > same (or ofer even the slightest genuine concession > > to their "legitimate aspirations", where do we go from > > here? > > We seem to have very short memories! > The Barak government offered just about everything imaginable, and more, to the > Palestinians. [...] 17416 38 28_Re: American Jewish liberals11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Sun, 25 Aug 2002 11:10:50 -0400576_us-ascii



DLerner569@aol.com wrote:

> Dave, > I make no plea for sympathy on behalf of the Palestinians,, although I think > your generalizations are a hard distortion that gets in the way. All I am > noting is that by my definition these folks are underdogs. If you care to > challenge my definition you are free to do so. I do not embrace these > underdogs, but I agree with Steve that as liberals (personally I prefer, > Ethical Humanists) one feels empathy for the plight - including the > proclivity to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory - [...] 17455 26 28_Re: My liberal friend Dennis0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com29_Sun, 25 Aug 2002 13:28:07 EDT412_US-ASCII Hi all I just got out of the hospital. Its good to see that so little has changed on habonet and that people are still going in the same circles. Oh want to thank all the people who have asked about me and apologize for my inability to respond. I came home to hundreds of unanswered e mails. No chance to respond to most its just undoable. On the other hand, I am still alive and kicking, sort of. [...] 17482 33 26_"the result of their will"11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Sun, 25 Aug 2002 16:46:29 -0400511_us-ascii Holtzer Family wrote:

> Dennis, sorry, but I don't get it. To a large extent, we are the product of > our own acheivement. The irresponsible and theiving leadership the > Palestinians have are the result of their own will. ...

Hi Dave,

Now I don't get it.

Didn't Israel have a lot to do with the return of the "irresponsible and theiving (sic)" elements of the Palestinian "leadership" which displaced the (then) more moderate "local leaders" such as Marwan Barghutti? [...] 17516 27 28_Re: American Jewish liberals0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Sun, 25 Aug 2002 17:26:11 EDT565_US-ASCII Noam, The flip answer is - Well, I give them a choice, don't I?

More thoughtfully, I don't think I offered extermination as an alternative. I think I suggested a forced relocation and annexation on a staged basis, to permit a series of choices that would have predictable consequences as a way of promoting their adopting a position of rational compromise in their own self interest. I consider any position that still provides positive options for the Palestinians from an Israeli point of view to be clearly ethical and humanist. You differ? [...] 17544 20 28_Re: My liberal friend Dennis0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Sun, 25 Aug 2002 17:28:40 EDT555_US-ASCII Sam, It is so good to be diverted from going around in the same old circles by hearing that you are out of the hospital and on Habonet. Mary will be delighted to hear. Get strong and let us hear from you -- often. Dennis

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 17565 42 36_Re: An ethical and humanist position11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Sun, 25 Aug 2002 18:46:14 -0400587_us-ascii DLerner569@aol.com wrote:

> Noam, > The flip answer is - Well, I give them a choice, don't I? > > More thoughtfully, I don't think I offered extermination as an alternative. > I think I suggested a forced relocation and annexation on a staged basis, to > permit a series of choices that would have predictable consequences as a way > of promoting their adopting a position of rational compromise in their own > self interest. I consider any position that still provides positive options > for the Palestinians from an Israeli point of view to be clearly ethical and [...] 17608 22 36_Re: An ethical and humanist position0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Sun, 25 Aug 2002 18:55:12 EDT442_US-ASCII I differ. My examples are intended as illustrative not mandates. The objective is to separate those who wish to live in peace from those who would rather die than live in peace. To protect those who desire to live in peace is ethical and humanistic. To destroy the enemy who lives to destroy me is to preserve my life. This too I believe is ethical and humanistic. As I said earlier my empathy ends where my nose begins. Dennis [...] 17631 46 35_Re: We Are a liberal People Too (2)0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Sun, 25 Aug 2002 19:11:17 EDT330_US-ASCII Amnon,

Your beautifully constructed posting reminds me of the man who, when he retired, adopted a vacant lot next to a church in town. Over the years people had thrown trash and debris in the lot. Old tires and cinder block, broken glass and all manner of twisted metal, rusted cans and weeds filled the lot. [...] 17678 41 36_Re: An ethical and humanist position11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Sun, 25 Aug 2002 20:26:06 -0400505_us-ascii



DLerner569@aol.com wrote:

> I differ. My examples are intended as illustrative not mandates. The > objective is to separate those who wish to live in peace from those who would > rather die than live in peace. To protect those who desire to live in peace > is ethical and humanistic. To destroy the enemy who lives to destroy me is > to preserve my life. This too I believe is ethical and humanistic. As I > said earlier my empathy ends where my nose begins. > Dennis [...] 17720 44 36_Re: An ethical and humanist position13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Sun, 25 Aug 2002 22:12:08 -0400532_us-ascii Welcome back , Noam! Did you have a nice vacation? Judy

Noam Stopak wrote:

> DLerner569@aol.com wrote: > > > I differ. My examples are intended as illustrative not mandates. The > > objective is to separate those who wish to live in peace from those who would > > rather die than live in peace. To protect those who desire to live in peace > > is ethical and humanistic. To destroy the enemy who lives to destroy me is > > to preserve my life. This too I believe is ethical and humanistic. As I > > said [...] 17765 118 28_Re: American Jewish liberals10_Jon Zatkin26_jzatkin@public2.bta.net.cn31_Mon, 26 Aug 2002 21:12:59 +0800392_iso-8859-1 Chevre,

I received a number of replies to my latest reply to Dennis, mostly like this:

> Jon > > Hi, it's me. Steve. > > OK. Given the situation (and its history,--- what do you suggest?

Steve, my first madrich, would I were King Solomon and had the wisdom to know a solution - not just a solution aceptable to both sides, but one that could be enforced. [...] 17884 118 28_Re: American Jewish liberals10_Jon Zatkin26_jzatkin@public2.bta.net.cn31_Mon, 26 Aug 2002 22:02:26 +0800618_iso-8859-1 Dennis,

> Being able to see the plight of the Palestinians, both imposed from without > and chosen from within, does not mean that their aspirations are Israel's > problem singly or disproportionately.

If we can agree that the Palestinians compose those people historically resident in the territory now occupied by Israel and parts of Lebanon, Jordan and Egypt (Gaza), then we can also agree that those neighbors, too, have some responsibility to contribute to a future Palestinian state. > > As a personal matter -- not a position of advocacy -- I think both their and > our attachment [...] 18003 56 28_Re: American Jewish liberals0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com29_Mon, 26 Aug 2002 12:25:31 EDT567_US-ASCII In a message dated 8/21/02 12:09:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time, carmdave@urim.org.il writes:



> You didn't ever hear a Palestinian demonstrating for statehood against the > Egyptians, did you? Damn straight you didn't - they would have been hanged > the next minute.



Actually the Palestineans did plenty of demonstrating agains the Jordanians prion to 67. They also did some agains the Egytians. This is one of the reasons why the Egyptians and Jordanians don't want them back. Obviously they knew something we failed to see. [...] 18060 274 49_=?iso-8859-1?B?5PLh+OQ6IEFydGljbGUgcmU6SXNyYWVs?=8_ericmoli25_ericmoli@netvision.net.il31_Mon, 26 Aug 2002 22:56:35 +0200379_iso-8859-1 Hi all,

I think that the following letter might add a bit of zest in your pro - con - arguments about the Israeli-Arabic conflict. To die - for what?

Chag Samach Everyone,

Mollie Marx



----- Original Message ----- From: wittert b To: Evelyn Kay ; ericmoli Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2002 11:13 AM Subject: Fw: Article re:Israel [...] 18335 64 28_Re: American Jewish liberals0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Mon, 26 Aug 2002 16:09:21 EDT475_US-ASCII Jon, Let me ask you this, assuming that there is resolution of some sort to all the Israeli Palestinian issues, and both sides are quite pleased with the resolution that has been reached (a very big assumption indeed, but necessary for my question), except for the control of the Temple Mount and East Jerusalem. The Palestinians have offered 'reasonable' access and protection of all historical sites and relics under its political and administrative control. [...] 18400 17 28_Re: American Jewish liberals0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Mon, 26 Aug 2002 16:10:06 EDT373_US-ASCII I say again, Sam. Welcome back. Dennis

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 18418 288 27_FW: FYI - THE OTHER BOYCOTT11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Mon, 26 Aug 2002 14:25:48 -0700472_us-ascii

-----Original Message----- From: Search4news@aol.com [mailto:Search4news@aol.com] Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2002 8:51 PM To: Search4news@aol.com Subject: FYI - THE OTHER BOYCOTT



This information originally was sent by the Jewish Internet Association. Visit their web site at http://www.jewishinternetassociation.org to read about their work to increase Jewish and Israel advocacy on the Internet.

WHAT: An open letter from a Jew [...] 18707 41 28_RE: My liberal friend Dennis11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Mon, 26 Aug 2002 14:35:30 -0700656_us-ascii Sam Welcome back!

Steve

-----Original Message----- From: owner-habonet@shamash.org [mailto:owner-habonet@shamash.org]On Behalf Of Smfgrappa@aol.com Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2002 10:28 AM To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: Re: My liberal friend Dennis



Hi all I just got out of the hospital. Its good to see that so little has changed on habonet and that people are still going in the same circles. Oh want to thank all the people who have asked about me and apologize for my inability to respond. I came home to hundreds of unanswered e mails. No chance to respond to most its just undoable. On the other hand, I am [...] 18749 266 24_FW: High Holiday Seating11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Mon, 26 Aug 2002 15:02:08 -0700401_iso-8859-1

-----Original Message----- From: marcia plager [mailto:mplager@socal.rr.com] Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2002 8:46 PM To: Danny and Chantal Leven; Carol Nalin; Barry Szemere; Israel and Marlene Zakai; Bob and Barbara Fruitman; Max and Shelly Plager; Artie and Karen Azenzer; Eileen Kelmanson; Avravraham and Malka Czyzyk; Geoff and Linda Remes Subject: Fw: High Holiday Seating [...] 19016 18 28_Re: FW: High Holiday Seating0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Mon, 26 Aug 2002 18:35:48 EDT401_US-ASCII Very funny, true, but funny anyway. And timely too. Thanks, Dennis

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 19035 86 28_Re: My liberal friend Dennis11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Mon, 26 Aug 2002 18:37:31 -0400607_us-ascii Sorry to be responding to last weeks messages, I'm still catching up to the flurry of activity while I was out of town.

DLerner569@aol.com wrote:

> ... > > As a pragmatic political strategy for Israel, I have advocated giving the > Palestinians a variety of clear choices that reward them for responsible > actions toward peace with Israel and punish them for violence toward Israel. > I do not find these positions to be inconsistent. I have advocated > strategies intended to make the problem of Palestinian national aspirations a > problem for the Arabs to resolve instead of [...] 19122 190 40_Fwd: Britain's Chief Rabbi blasts Israel0_15_DebALev@aol.com31_Mon, 26 Aug 2002 22:31:50 -040019_iso-8859-1

19313 87 28_Re: My liberal friend Dennis0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Mon, 26 Aug 2002 23:26:45 EDT593_US-ASCII In a message dated 8/26/2002 6:40:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, stopak@orionsci.com writes:



> Clear choices are good. One problem I see with your > approach is an apparent assumption that it is possible > to unilaterally define which are Arab territories. As a > result I don't believe your proposition is zero sum. If I > understand the thrust of your postings (and I'm sure you > will correct me if necessary) it seems you wish to draw > the line between our 'national geography" and "Arab > territories" at the Jordan River. While from a cartographic > point of [...] 19401 31 39_Re: Britain's Chief Rabbi blasts Israel0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Mon, 26 Aug 2002 23:40:42 EDT374_US-ASCII Do you suppose it will boost book sales?

The idea that difference in faiths is a part of God's plan is certainly a novel interpretation of thou shalt have No gods, before me. It is in keeping with the we're all good guys religious union approach fostered by the current Pope, I think. "We're all branches off the root of the Jews" Drivel if you ask me. [...] 19433 83 28_Re: American Jewish liberals4_sima19_simagr@telhai.ac.il31_Tue, 27 Aug 2002 08:52:14 +0200554_iso-8859-1 Lest we forget Black September, when the King of Jordan massacred over 6000 Palestinians in one swoop.



You didn't ever hear a Palestinian demonstrating for statehood against the Egyptians, did you? Damn straight you didn't - they would have been hanged the next minute. Actually the Palestineans did plenty of demonstrating agains the Jordanians prion to 67. They also did some agains the Egytians. This is one of the reasons why the Egyptians and Jordanians don't want them back. Obviously they knew something we failed to see. 19517 243 26_healing and tending fields12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Tue, 27 Aug 2002 11:16:22 +0200591_iso-8859-1

Dennis you sly rogue, I really look forward to your postings. I like the way your mind works and the mileage you get using words for maximum torque. Even when I disagree with where you are headed I enjoy the journey. But now, you knew there was going to be a “but now” at the risk of sounding churlish I protest. What do you mean by: “ reminds me of the man who, when he retired, …?” Who are you calling a retiree? Amnon, 88888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888 Your beautifully constructed posting reminds me of the man who, when he retired, adopted a [...] 19761 41 14_noam's comment7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Tue, 27 Aug 2002 00:40:37 +0300124_windows-1255 Noam, if you knew Dennis you would not have written such a nasty remark about him. It was below the belt. pearl 19803 45 16_sign your posts!0_18_Brianscoop@aol.com29_Tue, 27 Aug 2002 08:17:15 EDT243_US-ASCII Please remember to sign your name at the end of your posts to Habonet. Not everyone will recognize you by your email address.

Thanks, Brian / list Mom



----------------------------- Brian Cooper brianscoop@aol.com 19849 27 19_Re: pearl's comment11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Tue, 27 Aug 2002 08:49:31 -0400607_us-ascii Skolnik wrote:

> Noam,if you knew Dennis you would not have written such a nasty remark about him. It was below the belt.pearl

Hi Pearl,

I'm not sure what you are talking about? In most of my postings I have used his words.

Noam





------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 19877 129 28_Masheve Haruach- Kite flight11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org31_Tue, 27 Aug 2002 08:08:11 -0500543_ISO-8859-1

---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: PG1946@aol.com Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 12:10:55 EDT

The Korzcak quote is: "The wind is a gift that the kite gives to the child.""

and we have added the conceptual framework of "Masheve Haruah...to return the winds to blowing."

for those of you are are planning to fly the Korzcak kites, here is some info on getting inexpesnice kite kits that can be decorated by the kids...greater quantity will probably further reduce the cost: [...] 20007 158 28_Re: American Jewish liberals10_Jon Zatkin26_jzatkin@public2.bta.net.cn31_Tue, 27 Aug 2002 20:52:26 +0800463_iso-8859-1 Hi Dennis,

Let me first say that it's a pleasure (if that's the right word) to participate in a discussion on the merits of the points raised, without ad hominm attacks, straw men torn down ar other types of hysterics. For that I thank you!

> Let me ask you this, assuming that there is resolution of some sort to all > the Israeli Palestinian issues, and both sides are quite pleased with the > resolution that has been reached.... [...] 20166 52 30_Re: healing and tending fields0_12_SHX2@aol.com29_Tue, 27 Aug 2002 11:11:45 EDT351_UTF-8

In a message dated 8/27/02 4:16:29 AM, amriv@netvision.net.il writes:

<< If it broken don’t fix it, right? If it is broken then someone broke it or made it imperfect in the first place right? If the someone =’s god then s/he is a poor craftsman. Since I can’t tolerate the idea of a poor creator, I opt for atheism. >> [...] 20219 106 52_=?UTF-8?B?15HXoteg15nXmdefOiBzaWduIHlvdXIgcG9zdHMh?=8_ericmoli25_ericmoli@netvision.net.il31_Tue, 27 Aug 2002 19:10:07 +0200285_UTF-8 Dear Brian,

Thank you for addressing my letter. It's not like me not to have signed my name, but I shall be more careful in the future.

As my husband and I are going away next month would you please not send us any Email between the dates of 1/9/02 - 19/9/02. [...] 20326 88 30_Re: healing and tending fields0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Tue, 27 Aug 2002 15:20:51 EDT388_US-ASCII In a message dated 8/27/2002 4:16:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time, amriv@netvision.net.il writes:

Dear Amnonstophanies,

reductionist indeed. Flattery will not where reason isn't.

> let us agree that this mortal coil is a gravely flawed world. So defective > that whatever ails humankind simply can not be reduced to a foreskin even > on a detumescent penis [...] 20415 58 28_Re: American Jewish liberals0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Tue, 27 Aug 2002 15:30:03 EDT630_US-ASCII In a message dated 8/27/2002 9:25:46 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jzatkin@public2.bta.net.cn writes:



> Look a bit deeper to see if we are not in fact causing > the very intransigence we so fear. >

Your posting deserves a full response which I can't give now, but as to this last...

I disagree. I think the government of Israel under who ever's leadership including Sharon's faces an impossible task of being sufficiently Jewish in its policies to maintain the support of the people and perhaps their own moral sensibilities, and practicing the art of statecraft, as I have so often pointed [...] 20474 40 19_Re: pearl's comment7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Tue, 27 Aug 2002 22:59:27 +0300557_iso-8859-1 noam -- it was a low reference to his being a lawyer.... pearl.

----- Original Message ----- From: Noam Stopak To: Habonim Dror Alumni Virtual Machaneh Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2002 3:49 PM Subject: Re: pearl's comment



> Skolnik wrote: > > > Noam,if you knew Dennis you would not have written such a nasty remark about him. It was below the belt.pearl > > Hi Pearl, > > I'm not sure what you are talking about? In most of my postings I have used his words. > > Noam > > > > [...] 20515 89 28_Re: ??????: sign your posts!0_18_Brianscoop@aol.com29_Tue, 27 Aug 2002 19:09:57 EDT375_US-ASCII > Thank you for addressing my letter. It's not like me not to > have signed my name, but I shall be more careful in the future.

It wasn't directed at you, Mollie. Many people have been neglecting to sign their posts.

> As my husband and I are going away next month > would you please not send us any Email between the > dates of 1/9/02 - 19/9/02. [...] 20605 48 5_light4_Stan17_stan@inter.net.il31_Tue, 27 Aug 2002 19:41:00 +0200175_iso-8859-1 I think that LIGHT had to be the first thing created because it rsulted in night and day---time and order. There was a mess and things had to be put in order Stan G 20654 85 28_Re: American Jewish liberals10_Jon Zatkin26_jzatkin@public2.bta.net.cn31_Wed, 28 Aug 2002 22:31:18 +0800515_iso-8859-1 Dennis,

> I disagree. I think the government of Israel under who ever's leadership > including Sharon's faces an impossible task of being sufficiently Jewish in > its policies to maintain the support of the people and perhaps their own > moral sensibilities, and practicing the art of statecraft, as I have so often > pointed out, which involves communicating by stating the opposite, lying when > telling the truth, and moving left when you mean to go right (no political > image intended). [...] 20740 440 62_FW: ACTION - Calls for UK Chief Rabbi to stop critizing Israel11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Wed, 28 Aug 2002 08:21:19 -0700746_US-ASCII

-----Original Message----- From: Search4news@aol.com [mailto:Search4news@aol.com] Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2002 6:30 PM To: Search4news@aol.com Subject: ACTION - Calls for UK Chief Rabbi to stop critizing Israel



Submitted by the Council of Israeli Community, Media Group (www.cicisrael.com)







This article was published by HA'ARETZ on Wednesday, August 28. Last update - 03:30 28/08/200 in response to the GUARDIAN's article, a UK LEFTIST publication, about Britain's chief rabbi, Jonathan Sacks, who sustains that Israel is adopting a stance "incompatible" with the deepest ideals of Judaism, and that the current conflict with the Palestinians is "corrupting" Israeli culture. [...] 21181 140 17_Fw: more on Jenin13_Yehuda Riemer20_aminadav@urim.org.il31_Wed, 28 Aug 2002 18:20:00 +0200568_iso-8859-1 Thought this might interest you. While we're at it: Shana tova! Nitgaber! Yehuda Riemer

Sent: Sunday, July 28, 2002 7:30 PM Subject: What does the U.N. say to this?



The piece is entitled, "A Question of Blood," written by Dan Gordon, and it appeared in The Jewish Journal on May 29, 2002. Dan Gordon is a former sergeant in the IDF, the author of five books, and a screen writer. He was in Jenin on April 16, and was told a story by Dr. David Zangen, chief medical officer of the Israeli paratroop unit that bore the brunt of the [...] 21322 35 16_Good Rabbi Sacks11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Wed, 28 Aug 2002 08:45:33 -0700572_iso-8859-1 Fellow Habonetters

I mailed a reply to Haaretz this morning; something on the order of my sadness that, in spite of everything that has gone on this past year (never mind past eighty years), Rabbi Sacks has chosen to take sides on the other side during a time of extreme peril for the Jewish people. I am not talking about simple disagreements such as those that have been aired over the Habonet. This is a matter of out-and-out side-taking, and by someone that purports to be one of us. Josephus was not one of us when he transferred over. Neither [...] 21358 107 63_FW: [Voice Of Judea] Every Jew and Friend of Israel should Read11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Wed, 28 Aug 2002 08:45:34 -0700550_iso-8859-1 Whatever else you have to do today, be sure to view the Daniel Pearl video. It is not easy to watch, be warned.

-----Original Message----- From: marcia plager [mailto:mplager@socal.rr.com] Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2002 2:14 PM To: Danny and Chantal Leven; Carol Nalin; Barry Szemere; Israel and Marlene Zakai; Bob and Barbara Fruitman; Max and Shelly Plager; Artie and Karen Azenzer; Eileen Kelmanson; Avravraham and Malka Czyzyk; Geoff and Linda Remes Subject: Fw: [Voice Of Judea] Every Jew and Friend of Israel should Read [...] 21466 68 20_Re: Good Rabbi Sacks11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Wed, 28 Aug 2002 12:03:22 -0400556_us-ascii Fellow Habonetters,

I read the guardian article that DebALev sent, and it seems to me Mr. Sacks objects to what is commonly called "the occupation". If that is "out-and-out-side-taking" it is certainly no different than the "simple disagreements" which have been aired on habonet.

The article mentions: "Prof Sacks is at pains to underline his continuing, avowed support for the Jewish state - citing repeated efforts by Israel to make peace, and the Palestinians' failure to take the same "cognitive leap" towards compromise." [...] 21535 26 20_Re: Good Rabbi Sacks13_Yuval Warshai16_warshais@tir.com31_Wed, 28 Aug 2002 12:40:12 -0400594_- This is to express my public support on this list for Noam Stopak's undefatigable activity on it for balance, for peace, and for justice, and of his courageous support of Rabbi Sacks' courageous statements at this time. I think that the vast majority of subscribers here would clearly support Rabbi Sacks' statements and postions, as Noam did. Yet, Noam is one of the few people on this list who still spends a lot of time trying to counterbalance the constant stream of unabashed, annoying, strident, loud, and vocal right-wing active political propaganda on it. And he does it with an [...] 21562 57 19_Re: pearl's comment11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Wed, 28 Aug 2002 13:22:55 -0400574_us-ascii Well Pearl, as you have said on numerous occasions, anyone who knows me knows I was only joking. Even those who don't know me might understand this from the reference to being a "flip answer".

Dennis, if I offended you I am sorry and I ask your forgiveness. I am sorry if I have offended others including Pearl, Steve K., Tsippi, Frank P., Doug, (and any others who I have additionally offended by not naming them personally). I ask your forgiveness and I will strive to stick to the facts and leave personalities out of discussions in the coming year. [...] 21620 48 20_Re: Good Rabbi Sacks0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com29_Wed, 28 Aug 2002 15:48:24 EDT411_US-ASCII In a message dated 8/28/02 11:42:33 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com writes:



> This is a matter of out-and-out side-taking, and by someone that > purports to be one of us. Josephus was not one of us when he transferred > over. Neither is Mr. Sacks. >

This is not true. He is "one of us." You see, to be Jewish doesn't mean that you have to think a certain way. 21669 48 20_Re: Good Rabbi Sacks0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com29_Wed, 28 Aug 2002 15:50:34 EDT344_US-ASCII In a message dated 8/28/02 12:44:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time, warshais@tir.com writes:



> Yet, Noam is one of the few > people on this list who still spends a lot of time trying to counterbalance > the constant stream of unabashed, annoying, strident, loud, and vocal > right-wing active political propaganda on it. [...] 21718 49 19_Re: pearl's comment0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com29_Wed, 28 Aug 2002 15:53:20 EDT395_US-ASCII In a message dated 8/28/02 1:23:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time, stopak@orionsci.com writes:



> I am sorry if > I have offended others including Pearl, Steve K., Tsippi, Frank P., Doug,

What about me, why not apologize to me. Huh? I don't warrant your apology? I'm not good enough? I'm offended.

SIGNED: Richard Smith Mosh- 1970 - 1973, 1975, 1977 - 79, 1987 -97 21768 32 19_Re: pearl's comment11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Wed, 28 Aug 2002 15:58:54 -0400427_us-ascii Richardrdsmith@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 8/28/02 1:23:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time, stopak@orionsci.com writes: > >> I am sorry if >> I have offended others including Pearl, Steve K., Tsippi, Frank P., Doug, > > > What about me, why not apologize to me. Huh? I don't warrant your apology? I'm not good enough? I'm offended. > > SIGNED: Richard Smith > Mosh- 1970 - 1973, 1975, 1977 - 79, 1987 -97 [...] 21801 37 31_The Agnostic Aetheist- to Amnon0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Wed, 28 Aug 2002 16:12:50 EDT593_US-ASCII I am still not convinced that somehow- deep down - in your soul somewhere, our own "Yoda" does not believe in some kind of higher power. You can call it God, or Yawhe or Adonai, or the Universe, or "the collective consciousness"- But my question is -how does one who is so steeped in the literature of the Tanach, it's morality, legends, language, commandments, history--and bringing us examples of our own struggles with "perfection" and the forward "thrust" of the Jewish People as one which is "condemned to be "chosen" ( please excuse the sexist references- or don't) - deny [...] 21839 29 35_Re: The Agnostic Aetheist- to Amnon0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com29_Wed, 28 Aug 2002 16:27:03 EDT150_US-ASCII I cant speak for anyone else but I'm a "paranoid atheist." I don't believe in god but I know there is someone out there that wants to get me. 21869 78 19_Re: pearl's comment7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Wed, 28 Aug 2002 22:54:36 +0300446_iso-8859-1 Noam, the last time I saw you you were about 10 or 11 years old, so I have to say I don't know you...... I may remember you from when you were "little," but you have "grown" in my eyes. Shana tova to you and yours. pearl

----- Original Message ----- From: Noam Stopak To: Habonim Dror Alumni Virtual Machaneh Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2002 8:22 PM Subject: Re: pearl's comment [...] 21948 23 35_Re: The Agnostic Aetheist- to Amnon0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Wed, 28 Aug 2002 17:03:27 EDT544_US-ASCII

In a message dated 8/28/02 1:27:35 PM, Richardrdsmith@aol.com writes:

<< I don't believe in god but I know there is someone out there that wants to get me. >>

""You are not alone!".... :)

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 21972 52 35_Re: The Agnostic Aetheist- to Amnon13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Wed, 28 Aug 2002 18:53:38 -0400564_us-ascii Dear Sue, God elected George W Bush?!?!?!? That's what supreme beings do? Seriously, some of us are Jewish agnostics or atheists. Some of us Jewish A/As even go to services every week, kept quasi-Kosher and are presidents of synagogues And even if we believe that Justice, kindness and a host of other virtues are Godly, we see them as coming from the best of humankind, just as we see the Tanakh as the produce of the best of human thought and intention. TO take God out of the equation is not to be a relativist---there can be moral absolutes even [...] 22025 25 35_Re: The Agnostic Aetheist- to Amnon0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Wed, 28 Aug 2002 19:40:32 EDT493_US-ASCII

In a message dated 8/28/02 3:59:41 PM, gelman@erols.com writes:

<< God elected George W Bush?!?!?!? T >>

It is still questionable whether or not the American public did--- But I have to believe that there are some things we will never control or understand and that some "higher power"- be it God OR the synagogue- or even the "motivation" for you to be a secularist Jew- is rooted in some mystery. Maybe it's a crutch, but I like it that way..... :) susie [...] 22051 56 19_Re: pearl's comment0_18_Brianscoop@aol.com29_Wed, 28 Aug 2002 21:10:15 EDT343_US-ASCII I apologize to you Richie.

Your former roommate, Brian

> What about me, why not apologize to me. Huh? I don't warrant your apology? > I'm not good enough? I'm offended. > > SIGNED: Richard Smith > Mosh- 1970 - 1973, 1975, 1977 - > 79, 1987 -97



----------------------------- Brian Cooper brianscoop@aol.com 22108 207 24_something to think about13_moshe sheskin24_moshes7@netvision.net.il55_Wed, 28 Aug 2002 23:09:49 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time)608_iso-8859-1 When reading this, please keep in mind that it was written inc 1968, 34 years ago. Nothing seems to change, or so it appears.

Moshe Sheskin

Eric Hoffer was a Non-Jewish American social philosopher. He was born in BC 1902 and died in 1983, after writing nine books and winning the BC Presidential Medal of Freedom. His first book, The True Believer, BC published BC in 1951, was widely recognized as a classic. Israel's Peculiar Position By Eric Hoffer (LA Times 5/26/68) The Jews are a peculiar people: things permitted to other nations are forbidden to the Jews. Other nations [...] 22316 61 28_The Agnostic Atheist- to Sue13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Thu, 29 Aug 2002 00:26:59 -0400539_us-ascii Dear Sue,

We aren't going to get much of anywhere with this conversation because if there is such a think as a "belief gene", you have it and I don't.

At the age of 12, one Sunday morning, I told my father I wasn't going to Sunday school because I didn't believe in God. He got very exasperated and said "WHo gave you the stupid idea that God had anything to do with being Jewish?" Later in the week, I tried this on my mother, announcing that I wasn't going to Hebrew school because I was an atheist, to which [...] 22378 63 32_RE: The Agnostic Atheist- to Sue4_Meir21_meir_h@maccabi.org.il31_Thu, 29 Aug 2002 08:54:51 +0200570_windows-1255 Oops.

I beg to differ. You see I'm a RELIGIOUS Humanistic Jew. As such I've accepted the FIRST tenet that Abraham proposed. Not to WORSHIP idols - ANY idol. This tenet was strengthened by many in our history. Let's take 3 examples.

1. Mordechai was called Jewish even though he wasn't from the tribe of Judah (Benjamin). Why ? Because he didn't bow down to an idol. I learned from the Chabad that it is permissible for a Jew to bow down to a king (or his representative (Haman). So why didn't Mordechai bow ? Because as they explained it [...] 22442 64 35_Re: The Agnostic Aetheist- to Amnon7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Thu, 29 Aug 2002 01:26:25 +0300449_iso-8859-1 Was it Woody Allen who said "I don't believe in God, but I am taking a change of underwear, just in case." pearl ----- Original Message ----- From: Richardrdsmith@aol.com To: habonet@shamash.org Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2002 11:27 PM Subject: Re: The Agnostic Aetheist- to Amnon



I cant speak for anyone else but I'm a "paranoid atheist." I don't believe in god but I know there is someone out there that wants to get me. 22507 77 32_Re: The Agnostic Atheist- to Sue13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Thu, 29 Aug 2002 02:40:42 -0400540_us-ascii Dear Meir,

By acting as if he believes in God, my son meant ethically, not ritually. And I agree with him. Still, I like the ritual part. But I have great respect for those revise the ritual further than the Reconstructionists have and who won't say baruch ata adonai because it isn't intellectually honest. Unfortunately, the humanistic Jewish community I've visited didn't feel culturally Jewish enough for my tastes. I'll have to think about your "prayer to God as idol worship" point for a while. Interesting idea. [...] 22585 182 24_Re: The Agnostic Atheist21_Tsippi (Frances) Rudy16_tsippi@attbi.com31_Thu, 29 Aug 2002 00:04:59 -0700564_us-ascii Dear Judy,

Can I call you Sister? I think I share your genes. Beautifully articulated.

Shana Tova

Tsippi

At 09:26 PM 8/28/02, you wrote: >Dear Sue, > >We aren't going to get much of anywhere with this conversation because if >there >is such a think as a "belief gene", you have it and I don't. > >At the age of 12, one Sunday morning, I told my father I wasn't going to >Sunday >school because I didn't believe in God. He got very exasperated and said "WHo >gave you the stupid idea that God had anything to do with being [...] 22768 93 12_The Ignostic4_Meir21_meir_h@maccabi.org.il31_Thu, 29 Aug 2002 05:58:58 +0200444_windows-1255





-----Original Message----- From: owner-habonet@shamash.org [mailto:owner-habonet@shamash.org] On Behalf Of LiberHawke@aol.com

> I am still not convinced that somehow- deep down - in your soul somewhere, our own "Yoda" does not believe in some kind of higher power.

Unfair. Deep down in our "souls" (for those that want to call it that) there could be anything - even beliefs in bogeymen. [...] 22862 48 23_Ignostic (continuation)4_Meir21_meir_h@maccabi.org.il31_Thu, 29 Aug 2002 06:54:13 +0200468_windows-1255 -----Original Message----- From: owner-habonet@shamash.org [mailto:owner-habonet@shamash.org] On Behalf Of LiberHawke@aol.com

> I have to believe that there are some things we will never control or understand

Oh yes. I'll drink to that.

> that some "higher power"- be it God OR the synagogue

That's a jump that is not necessary.

> or even the "motivation" for you to be a secularist Jew- is rooted in some mystery. [...] 22911 76 32_RE: The Agnostic Atheist- to Sue4_Meir21_meir_h@maccabi.org.il31_Thu, 29 Aug 2002 10:15:27 +0200491_windows-1255 Thank you Judy for your nice response.

I still have a little problem with your "ethical" actions as if there were a "God". Would those ethical actions include the Inquisition ? Would they include the murder of Rabin ? In essence who decides what they would include and what they would NOT include ? The Rabbinate ? Wouldn't it just make more sense to act as if there WASN'T a "God" and to decide for ourselves what ethical actions would include and what it doesn't? [...] 22988 131 32_Re: The Agnostic Atheist- to Sue13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Thu, 29 Aug 2002 07:52:33 -0400510_us-ascii Dear Meir,

I am half tempted to give you the email address of my now 14 year old. You are as tenacious and as precise as he is! I don't mean that it is ethical to act like the Taliban or Osama Ben Laden either. What I stood in awe of at the moment I described was that my kid understood at 12 that lack of belief didn't negate his Jewish identity or undercut his ethical practice. It took me a lot longer and I don't think I would have made it without my parents' being so nonplused by my [...] 23120 118 28_new Jewish learning Web site0_18_Brianscoop@aol.com29_Thu, 29 Aug 2002 08:33:21 EDT685_US-ASCII I received the announcement below from Shamash this morning. It looks very interesting and they are interested in visitor feedback.

--Brian

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------------ From: "MyJewishLearning.com"

** Participate in Creating the World's Most Ambitious New Jewish Web Site **

We're officially launching MyJewishLearning.com in time for Hanukkah, and we want your opinion now! The newly-created site, produced by Hebrew College and Jewish Family & Life! with lead funding from Edgar M. Bronfman, will contain content of interest to all Jewish people. [...] 23239 39 32_Re: The Agnostic Atheist- to Sue10_Jon Zatkin26_jzatkin@public2.bta.net.cn31_Thu, 29 Aug 2002 21:52:25 +0800710_windows-1255 Chaver Meir,

I don't believe we've met. but I'd love to meet you since I find myself agreeing with most every word you've written.

Bvirkat chaverim,

Jon Zatkin San Francisco Ken Arafel 1959-65 12th Workshop (Gesher Haziv) 1962-3 Chaver Gesher Haziv 1965-8

Please visit our website: http://www.nscl-beijing.org |================================================= |Jon Zatkin Tel: (8610) 6298-5758 |Head of School Faz: (8610) 6298-1620 |The New School of Collaborative Learning |An Ning Zhuang, Qing He Zhen |Haidian District Email: jzatkin@nscl-beijing.org (O) |Beijing, China 100085 jzatkin@public2.bta.net.cn (H) |================================================= [...] 23279 180 34_FW: ACTION - Petition against CCSU11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Thu, 29 Aug 2002 07:04:54 -0700242_iso-8859-1



-----Original Message----- From: Search4news@aol.com [mailto:Search4news@aol.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2002 3:45 PM To: search4news@aol.com Subject: Fwd: ACTION - Petition against CCSU





23460 61 32_RE: The Agnostic Atheist- to Sue4_Meir21_meir_h@maccabi.org.il31_Thu, 29 Aug 2002 17:18:31 +0200529_windows-1255 Thank you Jon.

WE might have passed each other by when you were on the workshop. I came to Israel with the 10th and was then in Urim.

I visited Gesher HaZiv many times as I have good friends there. I hope to be visiting in the States for a year to move the projects of my Temple of Love forward. (Mainly building loving polyamory communities - like what a kibbutz SHOULD be IMO). But this will only come about once I have enough money for that. That's the reason I've gone into network marketing. [...] 23522 44 19_Re: pearl's comment0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Thu, 29 Aug 2002 10:32:30 EDT406_US-ASCII Good idea and timely, too. In preparation for the High Holy Days i suggest that we all apologize to each other for insults, affronts, baiting, supersensitivities, deliberate disunderstanding, maliciousness, hate speech, immoderateness, insensitivity to the feelings and beliefs of others, churlishness, ill will, ... well you get the idea. And express gratefulness that Sam is back among us. [...] 23567 50 36_Re: Ignostic (continuation) To Meir-0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Thu, 29 Aug 2002 10:46:39 EDT567_US-ASCII In a message dated 8/29/2002 2:48:43 AM Pacific Daylight Time, meir_h@maccabi.org.il writes:



> However I define "love" as a desire to become close to > people (or a person) to care for them and to care about them. This is where you get into trouble- what about the suicide bombers' love of death?...All I was saying is that there is something out there mor powerful than I that, in my own humble opinion, has the power to make ertain things happen. I am not all powerful, and I am nopt sure anything is...But I have lived a life in which [...] 23618 210 10_Yom Kippur4_Meir21_meir_h@maccabi.org.il31_Thu, 29 Aug 2002 17:58:40 +0200419_windows-1255 I've had this thing about Yom Kippur even before I came on the workshop. At that time I thought I believed in a "God". Still the idea of one day asking for forgiveness seemed to me to be wrong. We should do that EVERY day. I accept your plea for forgiveness Dennis even though I'm very sure that you have never wronged me in any way. We hardly know each other. What I'm talking about is on principle. [...] 23829 59 29_For two Cents ... plain sense0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Thu, 29 Aug 2002 11:01:51 EDT564_US-ASCII My two cents

This is about observation and the inferences reasonably drawn from observation. It assumes that the universe is a unit, that is that its rules are everywhere the same. There is no place where given the necessary density of hydrogen fuel a star does not shine. There is no place where the typical bonding of two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom does not produce water. The mathematics of the universe may be impossibly complex, but as complex or simple as the rules are, they apply in all the corners and planes of the universe. [...] 23889 34 39_Re: The Agnostic Atheist- to Judy et al0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Thu, 29 Aug 2002 11:02:45 EDT529_US-ASCII 
Kol HaKavod- I agree with you too on cewrtain levels ( call me a schizophrenic)and I am proud to know someone who is so active in her community. But I want to make one point: While we can find scientific explanatins, you can not see the wind, but you see it's "results"..I would NEVER try and convince you to change your mind, but I want to be here to remind you of our differences. I am a 'scular Jew" too who has been so turned off by what Amnon calls "organized religion" that now we are back at the yearly [...]
23924 104 42_Ok, so with inflation we're up to a nickel0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Thu, 29 Aug 2002 11:09:13 EDT457_US-ASCII WHO CARES

As Woody Allen's distraught mother observes in Annie Hall, when as a child Woody is taken to the doctor depressed because he has heard that the world will come to an end in a few billions of years, "What is it your business, anyway?" What difference does it make whether we understand our part in creation or not? Let's face it is it really possible to achieve understanding of our part in creation from within that creation? [...]
24029 27 39_Re: The Agnostic Atheist- to Judy et al11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Thu, 29 Aug 2002 11:12:21 -0400353_us-ascii LiberHawke@aol.com wrote:

> ...I am a 'scular Jew" too who has been so turned > off by what Amnon calls "organized religion" ...

When explaining the difficulties I have with "organized religion", I've always said that it seems the disorganized ones have more fun. Still, I often wonder at the idea that Judaism is organized. [...]
24057 18 14_Re: Yom Kippur0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Thu, 29 Aug 2002 11:14:16 EDT442_US-ASCII Yom Kippur is a special Shabbat, making 53. Dennis

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org a project of Hebrew College. Hebrew College is pleased to also co-sponsor: http://www. MyJewishLearning.com Participate in Creating the World's Most Ambitious New Jewish Web Site ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------=
24076 49 39_Re: The Agnostic Atheist- to Judy et al0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Thu, 29 Aug 2002 11:22:07 EDT582_US-ASCII In a message dated 8/29/2002 11:03:43 AM Eastern Daylight Time, LiberHawke@aol.com writes:



> So you have found your "community- and there MUST be > some kind of spirit you find comforting.

I don't mean to butt in... I don't mean to be maudlin.... This (Habonet) is the first (only) community I have ever felt really a part of. I will come as no surprise that you are all very special to me. I draw strength and inspiration from you, your "wear it on your sleeve" humanity, your angst, your love, your anger. It seems like the right time to thank [...]
24126 467 36_RE: Ignostic (continuation) To Meir-4_Meir21_meir_h@maccabi.org.il31_Thu, 29 Aug 2002 18:23:03 +0200554_windows-1255 Hi Susie.





I guess I'll continue until I feel that I'm repeating myself.

Thanks for the opportunity you've given me.





-----Original Message----- From: owner-habonet@shamash.org [mailto:owner-habonet@shamash.org] On Behalf Of LiberHawke@aol.com





>>However I define "love" as a desire to become close to people (or a person) to care for them and to care about them.



>This is where you get into trouble- what about the suicide bombers' love of death? [...]
24594 70 6_Shalom10_Josh Cohen22_mazkir@habonimdror.org31_Thu, 29 Aug 2002 11:46:24 -0400598_iso-8859-1 

Shalom,

My name is Josh Cohen and I am the new Mazkir Tnua (national director) of Habonim Dror North America. It is my goal to facilitate the decisions of the movement and serve its chaverim (members) in areas ranging from implementation of programs to representation in the larger community. Last year around the time of my election I was in Israel talking to Jared Matas Jamie’s (my predecessor) predecessor. He asked me what my political program was. I felt really badly because I did not have a direct answer for him. What I realized then was that I believe that [...]
24665 87 33_RE: For two Cents ... plain sense4_Meir21_meir_h@maccabi.org.il31_Thu, 29 Aug 2002 19:20:38 +0200562_windows-1255 OK Dennis

This time I'm going to read all the posts that I have and try not to react to each one separately.

Well done. My additions:

A. The assumption that the rules of the universe are the same everywhere is just that - an assumption. We already know of four events where that is not true: 1. The situation "before" the big bang. 2. In a black hole. 3. The propensity for basic particles to sometimes be in two places at the same time. 4. And now the ability of affecting material particles from afar by acting upon it's [...]
24753 75 32_Re: The Agnostic Atheist- to Sue7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Thu, 29 Aug 2002 22:20:57 +0300602_windows-1255 Meir,

are you the Meir I remember from Habonim 1957-1962 era? Where are you located? pearl pearlson-skolnik

----- Original Message ----- From: Meir  To:  Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 6:18 PM Subject: RE: The Agnostic Atheist- to Sue





> Thank you Jon. > > WE might have passed each other by when you were on the workshop. > I came to Israel with the 10th and was then in Urim. > > I visited Gesher HaZiv many times as I have good friends there. > I hope to be visiting in the States for a year to move [...]
24829 467 30_The Agnostic Atheist- to Amnon12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Thu, 29 Aug 2002 22:24:38 +0200579_iso-8859-1 Sue, you wrote: "I am still not convinced that somehow- deep down - in your soul somewhere, our own "Yoda" does not believe in some kind of higher power. You can call it God, or Yawhe or Adonai, or the Universe, or "the collective consciousness"- But my question is -how does one who is so steeped in the literature of the Tanach, it's morality, legends, language, commandments, history--" And my initial response is that by virtue of the Declaration of Independence of the US: " We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they [...]
25297 26 33_Re: For two Cents ... plain sense0_12_SHX2@aol.com29_Thu, 29 Aug 2002 16:34:10 EDT722_US-ASCII 

In a message dated 8/29/02 12:22:49 PM, meir_h@maccabi.org.il writes:

<< And NOT trust in "faith". >>

I would add that the almost universal notion that "faith," a precept which creates dissonance with intellect, is a virtue is an unexamined and destructive flaw in the current consensus.

Steve Hancoff

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org a project of Hebrew College. Hebrew College is pleased to also co-sponsor: http://www. MyJewishLearning.com Participate in Creating the World's Most Ambitious New Jewish Web Site ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------=
25324 47 33_Re: For two Cents ... plain sense0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com29_Thu, 29 Aug 2002 17:07:23 EDT403_US-ASCII In a message dated 8/29/02 4:38:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, SHX2@aol.com writes:



> I would add that the almost universal notion that "faith," a precept which > creates dissonance with intellect, is a virtue is an unexamined and > destructive flaw in the current consensus. >

Should the "is" that I have highlighted be an "as?" I was having a hard time understanding this.
25372 42 32_Re: The Agnostic Atheist- to Sue0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com29_Thu, 29 Aug 2002 17:08:02 EDT261_US-ASCII In a message dated 8/29/02 12:26:25 AM Eastern Daylight Time, gelman@erols.com writes:



> These two interacts probably did more to keep me Jewish than > anything else they could have done--

What, sending you to Mosh was chop liver?
25415 46 33_Re: For two Cents ... plain sense11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Thu, 29 Aug 2002 17:55:36 -0400435_us-ascii Richardrdsmith@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 8/29/02 4:38:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, SHX2@aol.com writes: > >> I would add that the almost universal notion that "faith," a precept which >> creates dissonance with intellect, is a virtue is an unexamined and >> destructive flaw in the current consensus. > > > Should the "is" that I have highlighted be an "as?" I was having a hard time understanding this. [...]
25462 18 32_Re: new Jewish learning Web site0_18_Judithb253@aol.com29_Thu, 29 Aug 2002 20:42:04 EDT512_US-ASCII What would be the problem if one tried several times and could not get into that address? Is there another way to do it?

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org a project of Hebrew College. Hebrew College is pleased to also co-sponsor: http://www. MyJewishLearning.com Participate in Creating the World's Most Ambitious New Jewish Web Site ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------=
25481 82 49_God's Awful Truths- to Amnon ( "amazing" stories)0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Thu, 29 Aug 2002 21:14:56 EDT588_US-ASCII 

In a message dated 8/29/02 12:39:32 PM, amriv@netvision.net.il writes:

<< So

please do me the courtesy of allowing me to define myself. >>

I believe that in your incredible "lessons" you do this already. Perhaps I am too "simple" to understand everything which you are stating, but I also have this "right of definition"- and let me say this: I do not "espouse" the God of Abraham, or of the philosophies of the Judaism's infancy either. ( actually- I like a lot of Christ's teachings but I am NOT a Jew for Jesus- I just find "love"- that is a [...]
25564 64 33_Shuls, Mosh and the High Holidays13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Thu, 29 Aug 2002 23:09:23 -0400
25629 21 37_Re: Shuls, Mosh and the High Holidays13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Thu, 29 Aug 2002 23:25:41 -0400632_us-ascii Sorry for all the typos--I didn't proofread sufficiently because I know I really should shut off the email and stop procrastinating, but Habonet is too endlessly intriguing--especially compared to the stuff I am supposed to be writing! Judy

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org a project of Hebrew College. Hebrew College is pleased to also co-sponsor: http://www. MyJewishLearning.com Participate in Creating the World's Most Ambitious New Jewish Web Site ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------=
25651 20 37_Re: Shuls, Mosh and the High Holidays0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Thu, 29 Aug 2002 23:59:48 EDT296_US-ASCII 
Funny- My father believed in God AND Mordecai Kaplan...His favorite gifts were books by Kaplan..and he would sit in his big chair and read to me from one with a pink cover.....But I got most of my deep Jewish feelings from Habonim.it was "life".not once a week in a shul.susie [...]
25672 33 37_Re: Shuls, Mosh and the High Holidays0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Fri, 30 Aug 2002 00:24:15 EDT548_US-ASCII Shomrei Torah- the shul in which my son got married last year is selling tickets for $180 per person this year; the Jewish home for $36; chabad for $125 Many of Shomrei Torah's own members ( who pay membership but HH tix are not included in membership) can't afford to go (I heard this already from three members). I understand the costs fo running a shul, but I am "appalled" at the way in which funds are raised and that - for the most part - every activity is based on money but disguised as something "educational" or "Jewish"- I [...]
25706 173 60_Fwd: UPDATE on SHORASHIM-LABOR DAY ISRAELI FOLKDANCE WEEKEND0_13_SC523@aol.com29_Fri, 30 Aug 2002 01:15:04 EDT274_US-ASCII For all Habonetters in the New York area - if you like the "oldies" dances we grew up with in Habonim, here is the complete schedule for Shorashim - the well-known dance weekend with dance masters brought over from Israel. Come for all or part of this!

Aliya
25880 32 21_And first- a "thanks"0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Fri, 30 Aug 2002 04:44:20 EDT596_US-ASCII 
I want to thank everyone who has participated in this discussion ( Judy, Tzippi, Meir, Noam, Dennis, Amnon- et al) I get a little (more) crazy around this time of year, and it is great to know that we can do this and have such a wide-spread difference in opinions and contribute with such intellectual ( and, excuse me- emotional) points-of-view without getting personally negative. And Judy- I can't really accept the fact, although it may be true, that your "synagogue shopping" - although it may have been done with the same "enthusiasm" and methodology- had the same - how [...]
25913 54 46_"V'tzivanu"...??? ( to anyone who will listen)0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Fri, 30 Aug 2002 05:18:38 EDT532_US-ASCII OK- It's 1 AM and I can't sleep. I once asked a rabbi why we feel we have the "chutzpah" to say those words, "baruch ata"-- that if God is supposed to be perfect- then why are we even "allowed" to make this judgment- much less use it in prayer..I got a smirk and an answer like: how can you even ask that question! --uh-oh- tfila--here it comes...so I have the following questions: 1. Do you light Shabbat candles? and if so, if you don't believe in a Higher Power- then what is all of this about? --v'tzivanu- who or [...]
25968 45 37_Re: Shuls, Mosh and the High Holidays0_15_Emabear@aol.com29_Fri, 30 Aug 2002 07:45:44 EDT590_US-ASCII Didn't want to enter into this fracas but I have belonged to Shomrei Torah (and Cong. Beth Kodesh before the merger) since 1964. All members receive tickets with their membership. Otherwise why the membership fees? The synagogue was near bankruptcy three years ago after building a large, beautiful facility - one that the membership was clamoring for. I personally didn't need the new facility but I'm an A.K. now. Sue, do you know that security for the Yom Tovim alone is costing over $35,000? With all kinds of fund raisers, and the very hard work of the Board and members [...]
26014 138 50_Re: "V'tzivanu"...??? ( to anyone who will listen)13_moshe sheskin24_moshes7@netvision.net.il55_Fri, 30 Aug 2002 08:29:17 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time)413_iso-8859-1 Susie,

Each person perceives God in his own way. Thus, to my way of thinking, there is no wrong way or right way of prayer. In the prayer 'Barchu', we bow when reciting the prayer. In 'Aleinu' we bend the knees and bow. In the 'kedusha' some raise themselves on their toes three times while reciting this prayer, as if ascending to a higher plain. On Yom Kippur we fast and so on and so on [...]
26153 61 50_Re: "V'tzivanu"...??? ( to anyone who will listen)0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Fri, 30 Aug 2002 09:41:58 EDT474_US-ASCII Susie, In such matters as we all having been talking about, we are each different. We have our own individual beliefs and they are ours, no one else's. Why it should be this way when we are dealing with the universal creator is an intriguing question.

Speaking for myself, and one day if I can focus long enough it will be a book. (Not so I can inflict my correct (ha, Ha) views on the world, but so I can get it all out and move on to something else). [...]
26215 38 49_Re: Shuls, Mosh and the High Holidays- to Emabear0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Fri, 30 Aug 2002 10:02:47 EDT518_US-ASCII 
I tried it lsat year and had a bad experience when I asked the assistant rabbi if my BESt friend, who hadn't been to shul in many years, could come on Yom Kippur because she felt complelled to go to a shul because of 9/11. The first words out of his mouth were , "Does she have a ticket?"_- ( I said no of course)- Well- Security won't let her in witout a ticket. I explained I had known her for 15 yaers and she was not a terrorist. "Without a ticket- no...." So here is one Jew PREVENTING another [...]
26254 57 10_Shana Tova12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Fri, 30 Aug 2002 18:30:16 +0200309_us-ascii Haverot/im The end of this not so wonderful year augers well for the new one habbah aleinu l'tova (auspiciously.) Dennis was first up to the plate Sam is back, Meir has rejoined the fold, Tzippi Rudy wishes Judy Gelman Can I call you Sister? I think I share your genes. Beautifully articulated. [...]
26312 153 94_FW: 30 minutes ACTION: Write Colorado College your objection to Hanan Ashrawi Appearance there11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Fri, 30 Aug 2002 15:38:09 -0700301_iso-8859-1 



-----Original Message----- From: Search4news@aol.com [mailto:Search4news@aol.com] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 9:56 AM To: search4news@aol.com Subject: Fwd: 30 minutes ACTION: Write Colorado College your objection to Hanan Ashrawi Appearance there






26466 29 80_Re: FW: 30 minutes ACTION: Write Colorado College your objection to Hanan Ash...0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com29_Fri, 30 Aug 2002 19:01:55 EDT75_US-ASCII Don't like to open attachments. Don't like to inhibit free speech.
26496 52 80_Re: FW: 30 minutes ACTION: Write Colorado College your objection to Hanan Ash...14_Paul Fingerman29_paul.fingerman@mindspring.com31_Fri, 30 Aug 2002 16:12:28 -0700405_us-ascii At 07:01 PM 8/30/02 -0400, Richardrdsmith@aol.com wrote: >Don't like to open attachments. Don't like to inhibit free speech.



I didn't consider this a request to inhibit free speech. I simply informed them that the choice reflected the caliber of education and the state of knowledge and understanding at their institution, and that I would do my best to make it widely known. [...]
26549 23 3_God12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Sat, 31 Aug 2002 11:56:57 +0200686_us-ascii Haverim/ot A rich, thought provoking, beautifully written book I'd like to recommend is Jack Miles' God: A Biography. It was a national bestseller and a Pulitzer Prize winner in the mid '90s. Vintage Books -paperback. Take it with you to the synagogue - but hide it in the machzor.

Amnon

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org a project of Hebrew College. Hebrew College is pleased to also co-sponsor: http://www. MyJewishLearning.com Participate in Creating the World's Most Ambitious New Jewish Web Site ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------=
26573 75 32_Re: The Agnostic Atheist- to Sue10_Jon Zatkin26_jzatkin@public2.bta.net.cn31_Sat, 31 Aug 2002 22:26:01 +0800300_windows-1255 Meir, shalom rav!

> WE might have passed each other by when you were on the workshop. > I came to Israel with the 10th and was then in Urim.

I was still in San Francisco but had chaverim on the 10th. > > I visited Gesher HaZiv many times as I have good friends there. [...]
26649 82 31_The Agnostic Atheist - to Amnon10_Jon Zatkin26_jzatkin@public2.bta.net.cn31_Sat, 31 Aug 2002 22:30:30 +0800359_iso-8859-1 Chevre,

In my very limited understanding of our Jewish heritage, the term Rabbi traditionally has the connotation of "Teacher". Amnon, are you a rabbi? You've certainly been one of my most important teachers. It was largely due to your teaching (and, of course, my wonderful experience there) that decided me to aliyah to Gesher Haziv. [...]
26732 102 50_Re: "V'tzivanu"...??? ( to anyone who will listen)10_Jon Zatkin26_jzatkin@public2.bta.net.cn31_Sat, 31 Aug 2002 22:12:59 +0800415_iso-8859-1 Dennis,

>God is a surmise from observation. God is the cause of the first cause. We are > not content with such an abstract notion, so we seek to identify/ascribe > characteristics to God which come from the reality we observe. The > characteristics we ascribe are based on awe for the majesty, and order we > observe. We redefine God as something beyond our knowing and direct > experience. [...]
26835 277 30_Agnostic Atheist and Dissident12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Sat, 31 Aug 2002 19:11:43 +0200567_iso-8859-1 

Haverot/im There are some who resolve the “if god is not good than he is not God” enigma with the apologetics of Proverbs 16:4. “The Lord made everything for a purpose, Even the wicked for an evil day.” I’d like to detour around that Eichman-excuse today and get on with the story of Benjamin. But first an admission and an explanation. The reasoning or rationalization behind my ability to call myself an agnostic an atheist but also a Jew is that I am also a dissident. I will try to make that reasonable by picking up the resolution of the [...]
27113 25 42_Synagogue shopping and the comfort zone...0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Sat, 31 Aug 2002 12:24:28 EDT577_US-ASCII 
Dear Judy and all who have found thier communities- I have been doing what you had suggeted for years and am still not either committed or happy with what I have found. I apologize for "venting" about a particular synagogue- as I know there are reasons why things happen ( or- maybe not).however- in my own particular case- I have come to the conclusion that perhaps I don't WANT to find a comfort zone, a community, because I want to be uncomfortable during this time when it is particularly meaningful to be part of a Jewish community. The struggle always [...]
27139 135 37_Re: Shuls, Mosh and the High Holidays7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Fri, 30 Aug 2002 15:16:15 +0300524_iso-8859-1 just a footnote: all chabad houses in every city, each chabad school and shul are completely autonomous and do not get any funding from the main office. They each and every one have to hold their own. I still remember when Rabbi Korf (uncle of several habonim graduates and current members) mortgaged his own home in Miami Beach to pay Chabad bills. pps ----- Original Message ----- From: Judith Gelman To: habonet@shamash.org Sent: Friday, August 30, 2002 6:09 AM Subject: Shuls, Mosh and the High Holidays [...]
27275 37 37_Re: Shuls, Mosh and the High Holidays16_gelman@erols.com16_gelman@erols.com31_Sat, 31 Aug 2002 15:59:05 -0400487_iso-8859-1 Dear Pearl,

Thanks for the correction! I was unaware of that. It was my understanding that they received support from a central source but I guess they are just really good about attracting generous donors in this area because they are known for all their amazing free offerings and outreach efforts. While I don't agree with their philosophy, I have always found them surprisingly pleasant to deal with and also very respectful, at least in passing interactions. [...]
27313 45 55_NYTimes.com Article: Searching for God During a Tragedy0_20_emskol@bellsouth.net37_Sat, 31 Aug 2002 16:13:41 -0400 (EDT)711_- This article from NYTimes.com has been sent to you by emskol@bellsouth.net.





Searching for God During a Tragedy

August 31, 2002 By PETER STEINFELS







Where was God? It is a question that might be asked every day - or perhaps not at all.

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/08/31/national/31BELI.html?ex=1031824820&ei=1&en=ea0916c4c7fe0f06





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