1 SHAMASH.ORG /usr/www/wwwhc/listserv/archives/habonet July 2002 2 101 27_RE: Zionism or colonialism?11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com30_Mon, 1 Jul 2002 00:14:42 -0700458_us-ascii OK Noam, you win.

Squeeze it a little here, stretch it a little there, Jews are Palestinians, the earth is square, and my grandmother is a ball bearing. Go to sleep and stop annoying me. You win.

Steve Klein

-----Original Message----- From: owner-habonet@shamash.org [mailto:owner-habonet@shamash.org]On Behalf Of Noam Stopak Sent: Sunday, June 30, 2002 1:18 PM To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: Re: Zionism or colonialism? [...] 104 253 27_RE: Zionism or colonialism?21_Tsippi (Frances) Rudy16_tsippi@attbi.com31_Mon, 01 Jul 2002 00:35:13 -0700661_us-ascii Actually, the earth is flat, Bob's your uncle and your grandfather is a brass monkey. Thanks for the laugh, chalomot paz.

Tsippi

At 12:14 AM 7/1/02, you wrote: >OK Noam, you win. > >Squeeze it a little here, stretch it a little there, Jews are Palestinians, >the earth is square, and my grandmother is a ball bearing. Go to sleep and >stop annoying me. You win. > >Steve Klein > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-habonet@shamash.org [mailto:owner-habonet@shamash.org]On >Behalf Of Noam Stopak >Sent: Sunday, June 30, 2002 1:18 PM >To: habonet@shamash.org >Subject: Re: Zionism or colonialism? > > >Dear Steve, > >Ze'ev writes [...] 358 69 27_Re: Zionism or colonialism?11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Mon, 01 Jul 2002 06:37:39 -0400352_us-ascii Gee Steve, I thought you weren't out to call anyone names or condescend?

I found what I thought was disturbing information about hate mongering among settlers and asked a question and you come back with a personal attack. Is this what passes for reasoned discussion in this forum?

Glad you and Tsippi find this all amusing. [...] 428 119 27_RE: Zionism or colonialism?11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com30_Mon, 1 Jul 2002 09:30:42 -0700543_us-ascii to Noam Stopak and other users of the Habonet forum

I apologise for my latest response. I shot a bit from the hip. I was tired and perhaps somewhat deranged when I wrote what I did. My inhibators were down and my brakes certainly were not working. Looking back now with the advantages of a night's sleep and a fresh, new day, I am surprised at my own ascerbity. I should have done what my first instinct told me to do, and that was to read the article with detached interest and move on. What did happen is something just [...] 548 133 18_[Fwd: Media Bias]]16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Mon, 01 Jul 2002 13:28:17 -0400680_us-ascii Within the past several months, I've sent emails to the folk who run the so-called "HonestReporting" website excoriating them for their eggregious attributions and allegations. The first letter was in response to their bromide against Henry Seigman's debateable New York Times op-ed piece which found some optimistic points in the Saudi's so-called peace plan. In response, HonestReporting called Siegman "anti-Israel." I reminded them that Siegman, an ordained rabbi, is the former Exec. Dir. of first the Synagogue Council of America and later of the American Jewish Congress. Hardly the record of one who is "anti-Israel." In the second instance, HonestReporting [...] 682 164 27_Re: Zionism or colonialism?21_Tsippi (Frances) Rudy16_tsippi@attbi.com31_Mon, 01 Jul 2002 11:12:47 -0700563_us-ascii Gee, Noam, if I've managed to offend YOU, I must be saying something right....

Tsippi

At 03:37 AM 7/1/02, you wrote: >Gee Steve, I thought you weren't out to call anyone >names or condescend? > >I found what I thought was disturbing information >about hate mongering among settlers and asked a >question and you come back with a personal attack. >Is this what passes for reasoned discussion in this >forum? > >Glad you and Tsippi find this all amusing. > >Noam > >Steve Klein wrote: > > > OK Noam, you win. > > > > Squeeze it a little [...] 847 45 27_Re: Zionism or colonialism?0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com28_Mon, 1 Jul 2002 15:22:40 EDT457_US-ASCII In a message dated 7/1/02 2:11:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time, tsippi@attbi.com writes:



> Gee, Noam, if I've managed to offend YOU, I must be saying something > right.... >

I find it interesting that Steve apologized for his unwarranted remarks and you still find it funny. With an attitude like yours I will have to offend you sometime. Please say something that I can respond to offensively. I assume I won't have to wait long. 893 81 12_Peoplefinder12_Doug Greener25_ddwgreen@netvision.net.il31_Mon, 01 Jul 2002 21:14:24 +0300306_iso-8859-1 Sorry, could someone please send me the directions to get to the Habonim peoplefinder again?

By the way, I went into the Habonim Dror Website and it is not there - though Habonet is, list of Kens, camps, etc. Wouldn't it be good to list the peoplefinder option there?

Thanks, Trudy 975 98 49_teach your children (Re: Zionism or colonialism?)11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Mon, 01 Jul 2002 15:52:25 -0400414_us-ascii Tsippi,

If you feel that it's funny that Israelis are teaching their kids to write to soldiers that they hope they kill lots of Arabs (this according to the piece in Haaretz - please note I didn't state it as fact, all I said was that I found it disturbing and hoped it didn't reflect widespread practice - is that really so offensive?), then I'm glad we are on different sides of this issue. [...] 1074 54 27_Re: Zionism or colonialism?0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com28_Mon, 1 Jul 2002 16:09:49 EDT567_US-ASCII In a message dated 7/1/02 12:25:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com writes:



> The fact of the matter is, when you are attacked > incessantly and hated incessantly, you start to hate back. It is not good, > and it is not pretty, and nobody could dress it up to make it look > attractive. But to expect some of the children not to bend or break under > these circumstances is to show the gravest of insensitivity. So, it is > easier to see that when I once again perceive someone to be yelling, "You > see?! You see?!", [...] 1129 68 27_RE: Zionism or colonialism?12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Tue, 02 Jul 2002 08:32:22 +0200536_us-ascii Shalom Steve; I'm taking my lead from your < I apologize for my latest response. I shot a bit from the hip. I was tired and perhaps somewhat deranged when I wrote what I did. My inhibitors were down and my brakes certainly were not working. Looking back now with the advantages of a night's sleep and a fresh, new day, I am surprised at my own acerbity. I should have done what my first instinct told me to do, and that was to read the article with detached interest and move on. What did happen is something just snapped [...] 1198 65 27_Re: Zionism or colonialism?21_Tsippi (Frances) Rudy16_tsippi@attbi.com31_Tue, 02 Jul 2002 00:16:44 -0700313_us-ascii Dear Noam,

All I was responding to was Steve's reply to you:

> OK Noam, you win. > > Squeeze it a little here, stretch it a little there, Jews are Palestinians, > the earth is square, and my grandmother is a ball bearing. Go to sleep and > stop annoying me. You win. > > Steve Klein > [...] 1264 260 84_=?iso-8859-1?Q?The_secret_of_the_settlers=92_strength_(_?= Zionism or colonialism? )12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Tue, 02 Jul 2002 10:21:28 +0200517_us-ascii

Sharon, You asked what proportion of settlers fall into this (potential returnees) category? I'll try to find out. I sense that in the answer lies the core of a possible solution. I'll bet that whatever the current estimates say that the number will grow exponentially once financial aid is offered. But I don't think a Sharon led government will offer such aid. Well, I still don't have hard numbers but I have an attitude :) It is well explained in an Ha'aretz article of today by Hannah Kim. [...] 1525 118 16_Re: Peoplefinder14_Jessica Silver26_foundation@habonimdror.org30_Tue, 2 Jul 2002 10:33:30 -0400450_iso-8859-1 Hi Trudy,

To access the People Finder, go to www.habonimdrorfoundation.org/people.

The People Finder option can be accessed through the Habonim Dror website (which has just been redesigned and is beautiful, so everyone should check it out at www.habonimdror.org). There is a link to the Foundation website on HDNA's site, and once you get to our website there is a link to the People Finder at the bottom of the screen. [...] 1644 33 51_Turning the other cheek (request answer from Amnon)0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com28_Tue, 2 Jul 2002 14:44:53 EDT598_US-ASCII I have been thinking about this concept intensely lately...For some reason, Christianity's pure infatuation with "love" and psychology- especially with one's enemies- is a chapter not entirely missing - but weak in Judaism. It is especially true when thinking of Shalom Achshav and of Habonim's value systems in which we need to focus on our own behavior and attempt to act in a dignified and respectful way to the plight of others, while being beaten over and over again- basically leaving us in the situation of an abused wife who wants love ( peace) so badly she returns again and [...] 1678 186 27_RE: Zionism or colonialism?11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com30_Tue, 2 Jul 2002 13:43:47 -0700602_us-ascii Dear Amnon

Thank you for your kind words. Good to hear from you.

About Golda.........no pedestal. I don't usually idolize or iconize or even lionize (what in the world does THAT mean?) People are just people. Once in a while, however, one of these simple creatures comes up with a word, a phrase, an idea, a unique creation that is worthy of immortalising. I was deeply touched by the idea that even when the stakes are measured in human lives, hate is not a necessary component; that hating even one's declared enemy poisons everything it touches. It really doesn't matter [...] 1865 31 55_Re: Turning the other cheek (request answer from Amnon)0_18_DLerner569@aol.com28_Tue, 2 Jul 2002 16:40:13 EDT575_US-ASCII Susie,

Like most if not all post 60's generation liberals (I readily include myself in this number) we have a very selective memory. The pages of my Tanach are drenched in blood much of it taken at our (historical) hand from those with whom peace and coexistence was not possible. From the earliest we have preferred negotiation and even payoffs, especially when dealing with cheated and ostracized family members. When these strategies have been ineffective God seems to have been regretful but perfectly willing to have us destroy an implacable enemy. [...] 1897 31 27_Re: Zionism or colonialism?11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Tue, 02 Jul 2002 16:51:30 -0400480_us-ascii Steve Klein wrote:

> ... People are just people. Once in a while, however, one of these simple creatures comes up with a word, a phrase, an idea, a unique creation that is worthy of immortalising. I was deeply touched by the idea that even when the stakes are measured in > human lives, hate is not a necessary component; that hating even one's declared enemy poisons everything it touches. It really doesn't matter that Golda said it. Just that it was said. [...] 1929 106 27_RE: Zionism or colonialism?11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com30_Tue, 2 Jul 2002 14:03:54 -0700717_us-ascii DONE ! -----Original Message----- From: owner-habonet@shamash.org [mailto:owner-habonet@shamash.org]On Behalf Of Richardrdsmith@aol.com Sent: Monday, July 01, 2002 1:10 PM To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: Re: Zionism or colonialism?



In a message dated 7/1/02 12:25:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com writes:





The fact of the matter is, when you are attacked incessantly and hated incessantly, you start to hate back. It is not good, and it is not pretty, and nobody could dress it up to make it look attractive. But to expect some of the children not to bend or break under these circumstances is to show the gravest of insensitivity. So, it is [...] 2036 64 55_Re: Turning the other cheek (request answer from Amnon)7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Tue, 02 Jul 2002 23:23:12 +0300571_iso-8859-1 Sue, read Nietsche on his thoughts about Christianity (religion of the weak: "turn the other cheek"). Judaism he felt is a religion of a strong people. It is not natural to love one's enemies, it might even be "sick" to love one's enemies. Since I believe that hate is debilitating to the one who hates, not to the one who is hated, I am against educating to hatred. I believe in working towards "shalom bayit" and "acceptance" in every possible way. The question is "what is "hate"?" since I am not the philosophizing type, I shall leave this debate for [...] 2101 126 53_RE: teach your children (Re: Zionism or colonialism?)11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com30_Tue, 2 Jul 2002 15:00:28 -0700559_us-ascii Guys

Excuse me for entering on this one. I may not be exactly the right person for this job, being the original "pot-stirrer" and all, but this is getting WAY out of hand. Neither Tsippi nor I intended ANYTHING THAT WE ARE BEING ACCUSED OF! ANY of it! We do not like seeing kids entering into hatred! We do not like to see Palestinians dying! We do not even enjoy what you have turned into some kind of imagined attack upon your persons, or beliefs or ideas! You have taken some small, tongue-in-cheek remark and blown it sky high! Don't [...] 2228 32 55_Re: Turning the other cheek (request answer from Amnon)0_12_SHX2@aol.com28_Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:01:06 EDT638_US-ASCII Re: what is hate?

I suggest that hate is what happens in a person when he/she does not acknowledge/express his/her anger. Anger is life-affirming, arising naturally when one feels thwarted or damaged. Holding back anger, while perhaps necessary in society, or necessary so as not to face the consequences of expressing it, is not natural to people. Holding anger is what generates hatred, and poisons a person. It's therefore not a coincidence that Christianity, the religion that most preaches turn the other cheek/love, has been arguably the most ruthless and cruel one in the known history of mankind. Another way [...] 2261 38 55_Re: Turning the other cheek (request answer from Amnon)0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com28_Tue, 2 Jul 2002 19:16:35 EDT584_US-ASCII Steve- what is interesting is that those who go out and preach the ideals of these religions in their names and do the opposite make you wonder what the hell is going on- the Crusades, the false prophets, the Golden Calf, etc etc....is it to make the statement that the broad generalizations of religious belief is so broad as to be interpreted by anyone....Or- as I would like to think- did some Power make things so simply complicated that humanity can pick and choose and preach and bang our heads while the Great Power laughs?...Like Tzippi said- get general enough [...] 2300 150 53_Re: teach your children (Re: Zionism or colonialism?)11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Tue, 02 Jul 2002 19:20:09 -0400504_us-ascii Steve,

You did more than make a tongue in cheek remark. You accused me of "the gravest of insensitivity" toward children. As a father I take this very seriously. You also implied repeatly that I was engaged in some game of "You see? You see?". All I did was post an article from a widely read Israeli paper which described what I thought we might all be able to agree were some abhorrent settler activities. In my preface I stated that I hoped it didn't reflect widespread practice. [...] 2451 174 5_Truce11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com30_Tue, 2 Jul 2002 21:29:13 -0700724_us-ascii

Noam

Grandma says "Hi!" And good night.



Steve Klein





-----Original Message----- From: owner-habonet@shamash.org [mailto:owner-habonet@shamash.org]On Behalf Of Noam Stopak Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2002 4:20 PM To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: Re: teach your children (Re: Zionism or colonialism?)



Steve,

You did more than make a tongue in cheek remark. You accused me of "the gravest of insensitivity" toward children. As a father I take this very seriously. You also implied repeatly that I was engaged in some game of "You see? You see?". All I did was post an article from a widely read Israeli paper which described what I thought we [...] 2626 43 15_Tongue In Cheek12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Wed, 03 Jul 2002 07:53:08 +0200281_us-ascii Haverim/ot 1. I could say "kiss and make up." But caution and discretion are called for. One ought to ask whose tongue in whose cheek? 2. On "lionize (what in the world does THAT mean?)" My Mammy done tole me that I shouldn't lionize, "always tell the truth."

Amnon 2670 128 11_Monthly FAQ12_Jennifer Kay19_kay@elvis.rowan.edu31_Wed, 03 Jul 2002 02:32:03 -0400415_- Actually-from:brianscoop@aol.com

Hi Chevre,

Here is a reminder of the "essential" commands that you can use to configure your subscription to Habonet. I will post this monthly from now on. Please note -- The address for commands is: listproc@shamash.org whereas the address for posts to the list is: habonet@shamash.org If you need any help with any of it, send me an email: brianscoop@aol.com [...] 2799 30 19_Re: Tongue In Cheek11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Wed, 03 Jul 2002 06:14:32 -0400619_us-ascii Amnon Hadary wrote:

> > 2. On "lionize (what in the world does THAT mean?)" My Mammy done tole me that I shouldn't lionize, "always tell the truth." > > Amnon

Amnon,

I thought it was a song by the Eagles - "you can't hide your lionize"

Noam





------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 2830 50 14_2/7/02 posting4_Stan17_stan@inter.net.il30_Wed, 3 Jul 2002 14:54:42 +0200217_iso-8859-1 Steve Klein wrote to Noam & Ze'ev "I hope this reply does not sound like name-CALLING or condescending.It is not intended to be " Great--now I suggest that everyone drop the issue and play nicely. It.s over 2881 26 9_Re: Truce0_18_DLerner569@aol.com28_Wed, 3 Jul 2002 10:02:08 EDT609_US-ASCII Geez...Just when I thought it was going to get good. What with Hate being refrigerated anger, I thought the ongoing exchange was just what the doctor (Freud) ordered. Get that anger expressed in some socially acceptable (not to mention, for the sake of people's sensitivities, entertaining) way. If we can get this anger out, I feel sure that we can get to some deeply rooted underlying "truths" that will represent breakthroughs in our common search for understanding and workable strategies. I am sure that this is how Freud interpreted Joshua's horn blowing. We should only do so well in our [...] 2908 19 19_Re: Tongue In Cheek0_18_DLerner569@aol.com28_Wed, 3 Jul 2002 10:04:25 EDT438_US-ASCII Amnon we had a country hit about lionize. "And your smile can't disguise, those lionize."

Dennis

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 2928 25 18_Re: 2/7/02 posting11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Wed, 03 Jul 2002 10:14:35 -0400456_us-ascii Stan wrote:

> Steve Klein wrote to Noam & Ze'ev "I hope this reply does not sound like name-CALLING or condescending.It is not intended to be "Great--now I suggest that everyone drop the issue and play nicely. It.s over

Now that (I think) we have agreed to drop the atmospherics, can those in Israel address the original question about whether the views and practices described in Ze'ev's June 28 Haaretz aricle are widespread? [...] 2954 47 13_cheek turning16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Wed, 03 Jul 2002 10:39:48 -0400591_us-ascii It's worth noting that Thomas Carrol, in his recent profound study of the Christian roots of anti-Semitism Constantine's Sword: The Church and the Jews sugggests that the real leitmotif of Christianity isn't love, which was its earlier attribute. Rather, he says, redemption through death has become the real Christian leitmotif. Christian love is an altogether interesting phenomenon. It is particularly interesting when spurned. Consider when our ancestors spurned the proferred Christian love of Martin Luther; Luther became a raving anti-Semite. Anyway, it's always something... 3002 111 17_Re: cheek turning0_18_DLerner569@aol.com28_Wed, 3 Jul 2002 11:36:10 EDT552_US-ASCII I met yesterday with the former head of Syracuse University's religion program, now an administrator in an inter-religious council. The topic of our conversation was Chosenness and its contribution to anti-semitism. Being a devout rationalist, I explained as best I could my inability to control acts ascribed to the creator. I added that I understand Chosenness to be an obligation to adhere to a monotheistic belief and that this obligation is obviously an incredible blessing that comes at a concomitant price, regularly, life itself. [...] 3114 30 29_sentence first, verdict after11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Wed, 03 Jul 2002 11:58:59 -0400395_us-ascii

>From an article in Haaretz discussing an altercation between Hamas activists who wanted to immediately kill a suspected collaborator and PA police who wanted to kill him later:

""The suspect is still under interrogation and if convicted he will be brought to trial, the official said."

We've been reading Alice in Wonderland recently and this fits right in. [...] 3145 117 19_RE: Tongue In Cheek11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com30_Wed, 3 Jul 2002 11:47:56 -0700293_us-ascii Amnon

You sly dog. Behind that solid wall (or thin veneer) of serious scholar, it turns out you have not lost your wonderful sense of humor. Bring it on. We can take it! Besides, a bit of levity right now could go a long way in adding light and lightness to the darkness. [...] 3263 333 17_RE: cheek turning11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com30_Wed, 3 Jul 2002 12:08:07 -0700580_us-ascii Dennis

I have a couple of things you might want to share with your friend on the council.

1. While it is ascribed to us that someone somewhere "chose" the Jews, that really isn't quite accurate. The story I got was that at the time most of the other people around were getting along quite well with various seeable and tangible deities, some multi-personalitied, some multi-headed, etc. It was in Ur, I believe, that an idea of a single, omniscient God popped into the heads of our forebears. So, the Jews are not the "chosen" people as they have been [...] 3597 196 33_interview with 8 yr old "settler"7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Wed, 03 Jul 2002 19:50:33 +0300546_windows-1255 This interview was made after Noam's letter appeared in Habonet. Tmima attends one of the largest schools in Yesha. Her settlement has the highest birth rate of any Jewish community in Israel. I once saw her buy a bottle of cold water in the village grocery which she gave to an Arab gardener working nearby in the hot sun. . Pearl: "T'mima, I just read about children who sent letters to soldiers telling them to 'kill Arabs for them', "kill 10 Arabs for me," and showing hate towards Arabs. Is that what you learn in school?" [...] 3794 44 48_Arabs teach how to kill Americans : July 2, 20027_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Wed, 03 Jul 2002 19:56:37 +0300690_iso-8859-1

> > 5. ARABS AGAINST AMERICANS > Yasser Arafat's Fatah terrorist organization is signed on posters > disseminated publicly throughout Judea, Samaria and Gaza that threaten > terrorism against Americans. The posters say that the attacks will take > place if the U.S. continues to support Israel and call for Arafat's > removal. Fatah denied today any connection with the posters, although it > did call on the Palestinian leadership to "boycott" meetings with US > Secretary of State Colin Powell. > > Hamas is more practical-minded in its anti-Americanism. The IDF Spokesman > reports that > the official [...] 3839 49 37_Re: interview with 8 yr old "settler"11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Wed, 03 Jul 2002 15:59:32 -0400369_us-ascii Skolnik wrote:

> ... I know that if I would interview more of these children I would hear the same story -- the Shiff article about these letters is so far from reality, and I find it very unfortunate that a chaver found fit to reprint it here. I am convinced from my > experience that almost all children in most settlements would react that way. [...] 3889 47 37_Re: interview with 8 yr old "settler"0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com28_Wed, 3 Jul 2002 17:03:40 EDT442_US-ASCII In a message dated 7/3/02 3:34:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time, skolnik@netvision.net.il writes:



> and I find it very unfortunate that a chaver found fit to reprint it here. >

Once again criticism of opposing points of view rears its head in this form. Please stop it. Pretty please. React to it, reject it, argue against it, prove them wrong but stop criticizing people for expressing views opposed to yours. [...] 3937 68 5_reply7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Thu, 04 Jul 2002 14:56:07 +0300578_windows-1255 Noam, I accidently wrote (Ze'ev) "Schiff" when I meant (ze'ev) Shternhal. Thank you for pointing out my honest error. When I think of HaAretz I automatically think of Zeev Schiff and not Zeev Shternhal.

I feel you are being tendentious, and accusatory, so am not going to answer the rest of the letter. If you can deduce from the letter the opposite to what I think, then it is your problem. I have no problem with people quoting from whatever newspaper they want to quote from. But, you seem to get some kind of kick out of "discovering" the negative. [...] 4006 48 19_more lashon ha rah?11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Thu, 04 Jul 2002 09:44:41 -0400477_us-ascii Skolnik wrote:

> Noam,I accidently wrote (Ze'ev) "Schiff" when I meant (ze'ev) Shternhal. Thank you for pointing out my honest error. When I think of HaAretz I automatically think of Zeev Schiff and not Zeev Shternhal.

I find that you accidently misstate many "facts". Sorry you have a problem with my pointing that out - I feel I must since you continue to present yourself and your experiences as gospel and representative of all Israeli society. [...] 4055 50 44_IDF GRAPHS ON INTIFADA ATTACKS: July 4, 20027_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Thu, 04 Jul 2002 21:17:40 +0300618_iso-8859-1 Thought these statistics might be interesting material for those who engage in PR about the situation in Israel.

MURDER BY NUMBERS > The IDF Spokesperson has released a series of graphs illustrating the > extent of brutality of PLO Arabs against Israelis since the start of the > Oslo War in September 2000. The bottom line of the information is that > there have been at least 13,494 incidents of Palestinian terrorism against > Israelis during this period - an average of 21 attacks per day for the past > 21 months. > > One graph, , divides the 385 [...] 4106 26 32_'The Wall' from The New Republic13_Elihu Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net30_Thu, 4 Jul 2002 23:18:45 -0400537_- The Wall: How despair is transforming Israel. http://www.tnr.com/doc.mhtml?i=20020708&s=halevi070802

Shula Troy wrote me privately about an MSNBC interview of Tom Friedman by Tim Russert. She thought it would be substantive meat for discussion here. I responded that, while I hadn't seen the Russert/Friedman interview, I thought that this piece by Yossi Klein Halevy had much merit and covered similar ground. I forward it for everyone's perusal. Sorry for the redundancy to those to whom I'd already sent this privately. [...] 4133 41 18_Re: 2/7/02 posting4_Stan17_stan@inter.net.il30_Thu, 4 Jul 2002 10:03:32 +0200643_iso-8859-1

----- Original Message ----- From: "Noam Stopak" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 4:14 PM Subject: Re: 2/7/02 posting



> Stan wrote: > > > Steve Klein wrote to Noam & Ze'ev "I hope this reply does not sound like name-CALLING or condescending.It is not intended to be "Great--now I suggest that everyone drop the issue and play nicely. It.s over > > Now that (I think) we have agreed to drop the atmospherics, can those in Israel address the original question about whether the views and practices described in Ze'ev's June 28 Haaretz aricle are widespread? > [...] 4175 845 37_cheek turning aka Dennis on choseness12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Fri, 05 Jul 2002 12:33:12 +0200586_iso-8859-1 Dennis, Here is a fairly long, actually encyclopedic, treatment on choseness from the Encyclopedia Judaica. In the kiddush we sing in our home on Shabbat we have substituted *im kol ha'amim* --along with all peoples, for the traditional *m' kol ha'amim* - from all other people. We all sing the kiddush in unison. Upon hearing that *nusach* for the first time at our table, most guests do a double take, smile and sing just a little louder, too. At our bet knesset many members make the blessing "for introducing us to His service and giving us His Torah." What's wrong [...] 5021 77 21_Re: Skolnik on Beilin0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com28_Fri, 5 Jul 2002 15:20:24 EDT611_US-ASCII Vdry thoughtful and insightful posting.



In a message dated 6/9/02 4:47:00 AM Eastern Daylight Time, fromm@inter.net.il writes:



> > Although I decided awhile ago not to get involved in arguments with > Pearl Skolnik, I feel that her last posting deserves a comment. Some > time ago I attacked the Eretz Yisrael Hashlaima people for being > financed by misled Jewish millionaires in the Golah, and in that way > contributing to a large extent to the settling of the West Bank. > Personally I do not agree with Yossi Beilin's ideas but I believe that > to attack Beilin [...] 5099 295 122_=?UTF-8?Q?=D7=94=D7=A2=D7=91=D7=A8=D7=94:_Debka:_Murderer_at_LA_Airpo?= =?UTF-8?Q?rt_Operative_of_Egyptian_Islamic_Jihad?=8_ericmoli25_ericmoli@netvision.net.il31_Sat, 06 Jul 2002 13:54:34 +0200408_UTF-8

----- Original Message ----- From: wittert b To: sarah pekin ; ericmoli Sent: Saturday, July 06, 2002 8:52 AM Subject: Fw: Debka: Murderer at LA Airport Operative of Egyptian Islamic Jihad





----- Original Message ----- From: RG26@aol.com To: RG26@aol.com Sent: Friday, July 05, 2002 11:01 PM Subject: Debka: Murderer at LA Airport Operative of Egyptian Islamic Jihad [...] 5395 18 76_Re: ?????: Debka: Murderer at LA Airport Operative of Egyptian Islamic Jihad0_15_DebALev@aol.com28_Sat, 6 Jul 2002 12:41:11 EDT363_US-ASCII What is DEBKA?

Debbie

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 5414 149 76_Re: ?????: Debka: Murderer at LA Airport Operative of Egyptian Islamic Jihad13_moshe sheskin24_moshes7@netvision.net.il55_Sat, 06 Jul 2002 13:27:17 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time)429_iso-8859-1 Debbie, Debka is an Israeli company that analyses the news and whose reputation and accuracy is almost uncanny. You can find them at www.debka.com



moshe S.

-------Original Message-------

From: habonet@shamash.org Date: Saturday, July 06, 2002 12:42:12 To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: Re: ?????: Debka: Murderer at LA Airport Operative of Egyptian Islamic Jihad

What is DEBKA? [...] 5564 385 50_which somehow made the whole thing almost bearable12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Sat, 06 Jul 2002 22:24:01 +0200575_iso-8859-1 Susie, A while back you asked: I bet you can come up yourself with an anthology full or at least a syllabus of sichot for an entire summer. Introspection is as good a place to begin as any and Dan Pagis is about as introspective about man's (any man's, including Jews but more of that below) inhumanity to his brother. [...] 5950 31 12_(no subject)0_15_Miceng4@aol.com28_Sat, 6 Jul 2002 16:59:03 EDT282_US-ASCII i have a question..does anyone know of a wholesaler of jewish holiday merchandise?im looking for wholesale to wholesale of things like banners, stick ons, cd,s,cassettes, anything..if you do, please email me..thanks..mark phillips(old smuchtznik..member LZA , branch rabin) 5982 56 18_RE: 2/7/02 posting11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com30_Sun, 7 Jul 2002 10:38:27 -0700354_us-ascii Noam

You've once again piqued (sp?) my curiosity. Why do you need this information? What are you intending to do with it?

Believe me, you come up with a straight, non-malevolent answer, I'll help you with your project, I promise. Is this a statistical project? If so please help in getting this thing properly off the ground. [...] 6039 50 19_RE: Tongue In Cheek11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com30_Sun, 7 Jul 2002 10:38:28 -0700409_us-ascii Noam

Please hold off on the correspondence for a few days. I will be out of the office for the long weekend. I'll get back to you on my return.

Thanks

Steve

-----Original Message----- From: owner-habonet@shamash.org [mailto:owner-habonet@shamash.org]On Behalf Of Noam Stopak Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 3:15 AM To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: Re: Tongue In Cheek [...] 6090 48 18_Re: 2/7/02 posting0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com28_Sun, 7 Jul 2002 15:34:03 EDT630_US-ASCII In a message dated 7/7/02 1:32:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com writes:



> You've once again piqued (sp?) my curiosity. Why do you need this > information? What are you intending to do with it? >

Obviously, Noam intends to use this information (i.e., that children being raised on the West Bank are taught to hate people based on their ethnicity) to form a new organization whose goal is to expose the racism and bigotry of the West Bank settlers and to organize world wide support for the removal of these settlements. Oh, I'm sorry, the settlers themselves have already [...] 6139 66 18_Re: 2/7/02 posting11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Sun, 07 Jul 2002 15:39:50 -0400327_us-ascii Actually Steve I just want reassurance that it is an aberration. This is for my own peace of mind, so I can continue to write letters to the editor and engage in debate with people I meet and feel good about defending Israel.

Thanks again for your ability to leave the sarcasm and the atmospherics behind. [...] 6206 119 45_which makes the whole thing almost unbearable12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Sun, 07 Jul 2002 23:19:10 +0200369_us-ascii Haverot/im Jenny Holzer first came to my attention when Rivka and I visited the Israel Museum in Jerusalem. We came upon an unpretentious gray stone bench with an inscription that reads:

Some days you wake and Immediately start to worry Nothing in particular wrong It's just the suspicion that Forces are aligning quietly And there will be trouble [...] 6326 114 14_searching for:13_moshe sheskin24_moshes7@netvision.net.il55_Sun, 07 Jul 2002 16:30:25 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time)314_iso-8859-1

If any one from Gesher Haziv is reading this, if you know the whereabouts of Margalit Hadari, would you please give me her address. Friends from Canada are looking for her and her name doesn't appear in the kibbutz telephone directory. Please notify me at moshes7@netvision.net.il

Moshe S 6441 42 49_Re: which makes the whole thing almost unbearable14_Holtzer Family20_carmdave@urim.org.il30_Sun, 7 Jul 2002 23:41:12 +020024_iso-8859-1 Yikes!! Carmi 6484 90 24_Healthy, on-going debate11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com30_Sun, 7 Jul 2002 16:19:46 -0700583_us-ascii



Hi Noam I'm back.....and refreshed. I see you have been busy without me, and that is a good sign. I wasn't serious about your waiting for me.

Reading some of your newer stuff, I realise that you may be taking flak from right and left through no fault of your own, but rather because your readers have no context within which to place your musings (and thoughts). I have a feeling that once people know who you are, and where you are coming from, a greater understanding of your motivations will reveal itself and people will not only feel better [...] 6575 52 28_Re: Healthy, on-going debate11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Sun, 07 Jul 2002 19:43:12 -0400429_us-ascii Well Steve, glad to hear you are tan rested and ready.

I've been participating in Habonet since it was started and I've answered most of those questions over time. Perhaps you can get the ball rolling by answering them yourself?

Steve Klein wrote:

> Hi Noam I'm back.....and refreshed. I see you have been busy without me, and > that is a good sign. I wasn't serious about your waiting for me. [...] 6628 33 49_Re: which makes the whole thing almost unbearable0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com28_Sun, 7 Jul 2002 20:01:41 EDT554_US-ASCII I can not imagine the life that is being led by our sisters and brothers in Aretz at this moment- to go about one's daily business while not knowing whether the turn of a corner, or the steppping onto a bus will result in one's own death. I am horrified enough by all of this sitting thousands of miles away; and not just for one's own selfish reasons, but for the future of children and grandchildren. The torment is probably unbearable, knowing at the same time that one's own value structure is being "torn apart" (I put that in quotes, [...] 6662 50 28_Re: Healthy, on-going debate0_18_Brianscoop@aol.com28_Sun, 7 Jul 2002 21:45:07 EDT270_US-ASCII Noam explained: > I've been participating in Habonet since it was started and I've > answered most of those questions over time.

And a few of us have always liked him. :)

--brian

----------------------------- Brian Cooper brianscoop@aol.com 6713 48 48_Fw: 33 websites about Tisha B'Av (July 18, 2002)7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Mon, 08 Jul 2002 08:30:18 +0300699_iso-8859-1

----- Original Message ----- From: Jacob Richman To: Informal Aliyah discussion group Sent: Monday, July 08, 2002 1:20 AM Subject: OT: 33 websites about Tisha B'Av (July 18, 2002)



> Tisha B'Av is the saddest day on the Jewish calendar > because of the incredible series of tragedies which > occurred on that date throughout Jewish History. > The tragic events include the destruction of the > first and second temples in Jerusalem. > > There are 33 educational links about the 9th of Av on > my Jewish hotsites at: > > > http://www.jr.co.il/hotsites/j-hdayav.htm > [...] 6762 137 42_Fw: www.hasbara.us Internet Strategy Group7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Mon, 08 Jul 2002 10:17:30 +0300605_windows-1255 I do not know anything about this group, but if you ever have to defend Israel this is where to turn. pearl

Subject: www.hasbara.us Internet Strategy Group



> Pearl, shalom: I received this email out of the blue. Click on the URL > www.hasbara.us and it brings up an astonishingly well constructed website > devoted to Israel advocacy. There are links at the bottom of the home page. > Click on "Internet Strategy Group" or "Visit AgentSpy" and it brings up a > long page in Hebrew describing the group's raison d'etre. Perhaps you'll > turn your Habonim friends on [...] 6900 296 99_=?iso-8859-1?B?5PLh+OQ6IFVSR0VOVCBVUERBVEUgT04gRVVST1BFQU4gVU5JT04gUFJP?= =?iso-8859-1?B?VEVTVA==?=8_ericmoli25_ericmoli@netvision.net.il31_Mon, 08 Jul 2002 21:47:15 +0200623_iso-8859-1

----- Original Message ----- From: Pnina Some To: Yankele Beeri ; Charlie Kalech ; Helen & Lionel Koven ; Joe Hersh ; I D Oiring ; Moishe Murray Oiring ; Rochelle Hoffer ; Mollie Eric Marx ; Lillian Liss ; Connie Campbell ; Shirley Promnick Sent: Monday, July 08, 2002 5:34 PM Subject: Fw: URGENT UPDATE ON EUROPEAN UNION PROTEST [...] 7197 38 18_Workshop 2002-200314_Frankie Meppen20_ganenet1@hotmail.com31_Tue, 09 Jul 2002 10:38:48 -0700372_-



Dear Jamie or any one else who might have some information about the up coming Workshop,

A friend (and 15th Worksop alumna and resident of Jerusalem for the past 33 years) wrote that she heard that this year the Workshop will be held in Australia and not in Israel. She was very dissapponted to learn this as was I ( also a Workshop alumna). [...] 7236 84 22_Re: Workshop 2002-200311_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Tue, 09 Jul 2002 13:49:01 -0400734_us-ascii Hi Frankie,

Where did your source get their information?

Here's what it says on the habonim dror web site, at http://www.habonimdror.org/programs/workshop.html

Noam

In August 2002, HDNA will send its 52nd Workshop to Israel. Upon arrival, the Workshoppers participate in an orientation which focuses on their integration into the kibbutz. After the orientation the participants live on a kibbutz, working and studying Hebrew through an intensive course called Ulpan. During the rest of the year, the Workshoppers travel through Israel, participating in educational seminars and tiyulim (hikes). For two months the Workshoppers live communally with their Israeli counterparts from the Israeli [...] 7321 17 22_Re: Workshop 2002-20030_18_LiberHawke@aol.com28_Tue, 9 Jul 2002 13:56:55 EDT468_US-ASCII I hope this is one of those urban legends things- Australia is not the Jewish Homeland- despite what others may think or want!=-susie

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 7339 156 22_Re: Workshop 2002-200314_Frankie Meppen20_ganenet1@hotmail.com54_Tue, 9 Jul 2002 13:18:18 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)387_windows-1255 Dear Noam and Susie, Thanks, I needed that! Kol tuv, Frankie

-------Original Message-------

From: habonet@shamash.org Date: Tuesday, July 09, 2002 10:57:16 To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: Re: Workshop 2002-2003

I hope this is one of those urban legends things- Australia is not the Jewish Homeland- despite what others may think or want!=-susie

7496 18 22_Re: Workshop 2002-20030_13_JLCAA@aol.com28_Tue, 9 Jul 2002 16:19:02 EDT430_US-ASCII Actually, Wallaby's were named for Chiam Wallestien, and the lost tribe ..... never mind :) Avi

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 7515 17 22_Re: Workshop 2002-20030_18_LiberHawke@aol.com28_Tue, 9 Jul 2002 16:25:05 EDT447_US-ASCII Aw, gee- and I thought they were named for you Avi with a British accent!( wall-abi's -== avi's)... :)- ( susie)

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 7533 28 22_Re: Workshop 2002-20030_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com28_Tue, 9 Jul 2002 17:07:53 EDT62_US-ASCII My understanding is that the Australia thing is true. 7562 20 22_Re: Workshop 2002-200312_David Fleiss20_dfleiss@pipeline.com31_Tue, 09 Jul 2002 17:18:00 -0400531_- Hey folks,

It seems to me that we've been through this before, not very long ago.

Let's hold off on making comments, for or against, until we hear what the mazkirut has to say.

David

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 7583 33 22_Re: Workshop 2002-20030_18_Green88888@aol.com28_Tue, 9 Jul 2002 17:28:11 EDT446_US-ASCII Actually- I heard this from Jamie-The first half of the year will be spent in Australia in a joint program with Australian Habonim. The participANTS WILL BUILD A CHEVRA AND LEARN ABOUT ZIONISM, HABONIM IDEOLOGY ETC. THE SECOND HALF OF THE YEAR WILL BE SPENT IN ISRAEL. JAMIE HAD SOME interesting/rational reasons for this decision. I think it would be better for him to explain them directly as I might give my own interpretations! Donna 7617 20 22_Re: Workshop 2002-20030_18_LiberHawke@aol.com28_Tue, 9 Jul 2002 17:38:55 EDT340_US-ASCII If this is true- and that's a big IF- then I am appalled!...to cut the time spent in Israel is a "shonda"- and I hope that this was only "banter" and not policy. It sounds like an "out"- and building a chevra should be done within the group for as long as they can.Better they spend more time otgether in Israel.....OY- susie [...] 7638 24 22_Re: Workshop 2002-20030_15_DebALev@aol.com28_Tue, 9 Jul 2002 17:51:29 EDT579_US-ASCII And Australia? Why not Uganda...........or Grand Island in New York........?

Seems to me that there are plenty of places to build a chevra.........WHAT IS GOING ON HERE?

I sure hope somebody can explain this.



Debbie

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 7663 22 22_Re: Workshop 2002-20030_17_JackNusan@aol.com28_Tue, 9 Jul 2002 18:42:44 EDT359_US-ASCII Let's relax. Change is good. On the machon, we spent half the year in Jerusalem, half the year on kibbutz. So, half the year in Australia building up a Habonim there and half in Israel is also good. If it is true and people should wait until it is, this is ok. If we don't change, we will go "untern dem rad' as Hermann Hess's novel title says. [...] 7686 24 22_Re: Workshop 2002-20030_18_LiberHawke@aol.com28_Tue, 9 Jul 2002 18:51:28 EDT476_US-ASCII jack- I don't agree with you- 1/2 a year in Jerusalem and 1/2 on kibbutz is still a whole year in ISrael- And we are not talking about "change" in terms of "progress"- but rather it sounds like a cop out to keep kids away from Israel at a time in which they need to be there- I am not a parent of a young teen right now- but my son is going in August and I would go if I had the finances and time off my job. Of all things- Workshop is a prep year with the goal [...] 7711 21 26_Re: Workshop 2002-2003- PS0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com28_Tue, 9 Jul 2002 18:54:29 EDT401_US-ASCII I don't like to "relax" when it comes to issues about which I have strong feelings. I may have no right to express them in this case- since I am not on any tnuah "board"- but as a a graduate fo the Workshop, and one in which the program had a deep and long-lasting effect on my life- I feel I can say something- Ca serah, sera, as they say- but boy, what a shame if this is true!..susie [...] 7733 51 20_Re: Workshop 2002-030_13_SC523@aol.com29_Wed, 10 Jul 2002 02:18:22 EDT330_US-ASCII I happened to be with Donna and Jamie on the road to Na'aleh 2 weeks ago when Jamie explained the tochnit for the Australia/Israel combination. The whole idea was fascinating, well-thought out, very chinuch-laden, and a wonderful solution during a year that many groups are cancelling their youth programs en masse. [...] 7785 67 20_Re: Workshop 2002-030_14_KBob24@aol.com29_Wed, 10 Jul 2002 08:47:41 EDT502_US-ASCII Folks:

I think Aliya did a great job of framing the issue and explaining so me of the background. I want to make three points:

1) I think Jamie will be happy to explain to you, movement supporters, in more detail what is going on with the 52nd workshop. Since it is summer, it is a great time for him to be out spending time with the movement at machanot. For that reason his Internet access and "desk time" is more limited. I will ask him to respond when he gets a chance. [...] 7853 39 20_Re: Workshop 2002-0311_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Wed, 10 Jul 2002 08:54:11 -0400550_us-ascii Thanks Ken and Aliya.

I do think that it would be a good idea to update the Workshop web page to reflect the current plans for the program. Who knows, perhaps it will even help enrollment.

Noam

KBob24@aol.com wrote:

> Folks: > > I think Aliya did a great job of framing the issue and explaining so me of the background. I want to make three points: > > 1) I think Jamie will be happy to explain to you, movement supporters, in more detail what is going on with the 52nd workshop. Since it is summer, it is a [...] 7893 58 20_Re: Workshop 2002-030_18_Brianscoop@aol.com29_Wed, 10 Jul 2002 09:15:03 EDT346_US-ASCII > I do think that it would be a good idea to update the Workshop > web page to reflect the current plans for the program. Who knows, > perhaps it will even help enrollment.

Really! Australia, eh? Do they need a madrich?

:) --Brian







----------------------------- Brian Cooper brianscoop@aol.com 7952 54 22_Re: Workshop 2002-200314_Jessica Silver26_foundation@habonimdror.org31_Wed, 10 Jul 2002 09:24:27 -0400269_iso-8859-1 I just want to let everyone know that Jamie is at Machaneh Galil right now for the madatz mifgash, and therefore not checking email. He will be back in the office tomorrow so you won't have a response regarding Workshop 52 from him until then.

Jessica 8007 65 67_Fwd: Workshop 2002-2003- To Aliya (oops- went to wrong email first)0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Wed, 10 Jul 2002 13:37:30 EDT17_US-ASCII

8073 64 66_Re: Workshop 2002-2003- To Aliya (oops- went to wrong email first)0_15_DebALev@aol.com29_Wed, 10 Jul 2002 13:58:54 EDT431_US-ASCII For the record....I asked about Uganda because, as I recall, that was a place Herzl was interested in as a Jewish homeland. And I mentioned Grand Island, NY, because Mordecai Manuel Noah had that idea for Jews in the USA.

I did not mention Ethiopia.

I am waiting to hear the rationale for Australia...........and not another community which might be more cost-effective such as South Africa or the U.K. [...] 8138 50 20_Re: Workshop 2002-030_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com29_Wed, 10 Jul 2002 17:16:02 EDT275_US-ASCII In a message dated 7/10/02 9:15:33 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Brianscoop@aol.com writes:



> Really! > Australia, eh? Do they need a madrich? > > :) > --Brian >

Yeah, but you have to be able to sleep thru the night w/out getting up to pee.

8189 568 57_Interview with Bernard lewis/ What went wrong/CBC reports11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org31_Wed, 10 Jul 2002 20:59:40 -0500380_ISO-8859-1

Hot Type on the Middle East Hot Type presents hot talk on this hot button issue. Read transcripts of our interviews with two controversial authors. Examine the history, the intervention and the unrest through these two perspectives and join the discussion. Noam Chomsky and his book "9-11" Bernard Lewis and his book "What Went Wrong?" Join the discussion [...] 8758 15 31_The Bernard Lewis interview URL11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org31_Wed, 10 Jul 2002 21:04:15 -0500390_us-ascii http://cbc.ca/programs/sites/hottype_blewis911.html#top

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 8774 21 12_Re: Workshop0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Wed, 10 Jul 2002 23:28:13 EDT401_US-ASCII I just came from dinner with my sons and found out that the Young Judaea year course is full for this next year- 129 kids.....When I mentioned that the Habonim Workshop was going to be held 1/2 in Australia- my two sons laughed and said, "So where is their Zionism now?"...And then Micha went on to say they might as well go to Uganda.....I guess he has something in common with Deb...s [...] 8796 92 66_RE: Workshop 2002-2003- To Aliya (oops- went to wrong email first)11_Batel Libes25_batel_libes@earthlink.net31_Wed, 10 Jul 2002 20:41:07 -0700492_us-ascii I will refrain from posting an opinion, but I will say with somewhat of a certainty, that most of us with kids who are either close to or around the workshop age, knew of this change for a while. It's part of the networking thing. And though I don't expect to be notified about these decisions or changes, at least not for five more years, especially on Habonet, I don't understand why when you go to: http://habonimdror.org/programs/workshop.html the information is not there. [...] 8889 30 12_RE: Workshop13_Avi Goldstein24_habergo@barak-online.net31_Thu, 11 Jul 2002 08:03:39 +0200575_US-ASCII Funny, just yesterday morning I was talking to someone about the tourist situation here, and said to someone that tourists used to come in the 50's and early 60's, when surely it must have been more frightening. Indeed, I was thinking that the first workshop was in 1950, which involved a week/2 week boat trip in either direction, and then a primitive and dangerous state of Israel, and I remembered how proud we always were that Habonim was the first movement with a year program in Israel, Now we seem to be the first movement with a program in Australia... [...] 8920 65 12_Re: Workshop0_15_DebALev@aol.com29_Thu, 11 Jul 2002 01:49:50 EDT624_US-ASCII In a message dated 7/11/2002 1:01:44 AM Eastern Daylight Time, habergo@barak-online.net writes:



> I am bothered to have read that the initiative came from > the Israeli side of the movement. > >

As am I - bothered and surprised. But we still haven't heard anything from the horse's mouth. I am also bothered by that......granted, it's machaneh time, but I'm having trouble understanding how NOBODY involved with making the decision has communicated anything officially, and it is still the same as before on the web site. I know that it's not necessary to mention this on Habonet, but it [...] 8986 26 26_Christians and Capitalists0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Thu, 11 Jul 2002 10:13:19 EDT595_US-ASCII Well- now Christians are paying for American Aliya ( see the Jerusalem Post of a couple of days ago- where almost 400 new olim from America landed at Ben Gurion airport and came partially because of grants from the International Fellowship of Christians and Jews of $10-25,000 per family unit)- I say- Kol HaKavod (Their Exec Director- Rabbi Yechiel Eckstein- made Aliyah last year- and his organization has helped with our Exodus project). And Young Judaea is sending a full Year Course to Israel- apparently while they may have some fears- they are not letting it get in the way [...] 9013 31 20_Re: Workshop 2002-030_17_JackNusan@aol.com29_Thu, 11 Jul 2002 11:45:22 EDT370_US-ASCII I agree absolutely with Aliya. The tone of our responses, especially in an internet setting where we do not see facial expressions or know when we are kidding or whatever, is important. What makes America great is our ability here to have opinions on a host of subjects and to disagree without becoming disagreeable. Orelse people will leave the listserv. [...] 9045 40 20_Re: Workshop 2002-030_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Thu, 11 Jul 2002 12:08:35 EDT572_US-ASCII

In a message dated 7/11/02 11:46:05 PM, JackNusan@aol.com writes:

<< Our children are not icons for OUR idealism. The whole point is safety and innovation. >> But we do- and if we can, we try, to pass on certain values to our projeny- My son is going to ISrael in August- I posted his article wherein he describes the reactions of certain "groups"- his actor friends- his parents- And when he talks about his family- he states the fact that "didn't we bring him up Zionist?"---- hey If we were all so terrified of the world and only wanted to [...] 9086 57 20_Re: Workshop 2002-0311_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Thu, 11 Jul 2002 13:03:48 -0400552_us-ascii LiberHawke@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 7/11/02 11:46:05 PM, JackNusan@aol.com writes: > > << Our > children are not icons for OUR idealism. The whole point is safety and > innovation. > >> > But we do- and if we can, we try, to pass on certain values to our projeny- > My son is going to ISrael in August- I posted his article wherein he > describes the reactions of certain "groups"- his actor friends- his parents- > And when he talks about his family- he states the fact that "didn't we bring > him up Zionist?"---- hey [...] 9144 22 29_Re: Workshop 2002-03- To Noam0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Thu, 11 Jul 2002 13:27:51 EDT538_US-ASCII I was NOT picking on you- rather I mentioned you as someone who has strong views and expresses them freely on this venue( it was a compliment!)- Also- While sometimes I don't think we have any "power" when it comes to feelings and ideas being implemented in ISrael- I think that we have the right to express them, never-the-less. Also- I agree wholeheartedly with your viewpoint regarding Palestinian children and the horrible plight they are in for whatever reasons- I think I have expressed this many times before...susie [...] 9167 70 8_Workshop11_Jamie Levin22_mazkir@habonimdror.org31_Thu, 11 Jul 2002 14:43:14 -0400654_iso-8859-1 Shalom Habonetters,

The primary goal of todays Workshop tochnit is to create the next generation of Progressive-Zionist Leadership capable of both critiquing and defending Israel; we do not operate solidarity missions or teen tours--our goals are much greater! Both the Intifadah and the changing nature of Israeli society have necessitated a re-evaluation of the Workshop tochnit in order that we may continue to meet our goals. This is the nature of being a politically active movement rather than just a 'parve' organization. The manner in which it is done also reflects the nature of our particular type of youthful democracy. [...] 9238 192 16_Workshop 2002-0312_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Thu, 11 Jul 2002 23:47:19 +0200592_iso-8859-1

Haverim/ot Sue asked what the hevreh in Israel think of splitting the workshop year between Australia and Israel. I can only speak for myself. I understand the reasons that have been advanced for the suggestion. I understand and can’t stand them. Here’s why. 1) the idea negates the rationale and the culture of a youth movement. When I was involved in habonim camping both as hanich and later as a shalich, hanikhim were told that the camp was a model or miniature democracy. The only veto exercised by staff fell under the rubric of health and safety. This was only [...] 9431 18 20_Re: Workshop 2002-030_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Thu, 11 Jul 2002 17:59:31 EDT515_US-ASCII Thank you Amnon for your usual insightful input- I hope the mazkirut of Habonim reads this- for I fear you may be preaching to the choir= but then again, maybe you aren't :)- susie

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 9450 24 20_Re: Workshop 2002-030_17_JackNusan@aol.com29_Thu, 11 Jul 2002 21:44:31 EDT468_US-ASCII Yes, I agree, susie; you have a right to your opinion, but it came across very critical and opioniated with no further room for discussion. Impersonal, non-face-to-face communication like the internet is difficult because of that fact; that we don't see the person. We hear the sharp criticism and we take it personally. We don't see the person behind the words. One day, technology will have us see the prson's expression and face as well as the words. [...] 9475 43 8_workshop11_Lon Ephraim14_cbma@erols.com31_Thu, 11 Jul 2002 23:11:57 -0400493_us-ascii Jack (Porter) - I was so glad you wrote what you did. I wanted to jump into the conversation but read further, hoping someone would articulate what I felt better than I can.

These are our KIDS. They're probably more idealogical and intellectual than most kids their age, but I don't put potential life/death decisions in their hands, nor will I send them into any situation which make me uneasy. I've done that kind of filtering since they were born and I won't stop now. [...] 9519 68 12_Re: workshop0_15_DebALev@aol.com29_Thu, 11 Jul 2002 23:34:50 EDT323_US-ASCII WAIT A MINUTE! Before this gets any worse, I think we need to look at the real issue here. The real issue, it seems to me, is how and if Habonim Dror is going to adjust its programs in light of the current situation in Israel, and if that program is adjusted, how would it best reflect the values of Habonim. [...] 9588 59 20_Re: Workshop 2002-030_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Thu, 11 Jul 2002 23:36:10 EDT589_US-ASCII In a message dated 7/11/2002 6:45:03 PM Pacific Daylight Time, JackNusan@aol.com writes:



> , I agree, susie; you have a right to your opinion, but it came across > very critical and opioniated with no further room for discussion. > Impersonal, non-face-to-face communication like the internet is difficult > because of that fact; that we don't see the person. We hear the sharp > criticism and we take it personally. We don't see the person behind the > words. One day, technology will have us see the prson's expression and > face > as well as the words. > > [...] 9648 56 12_Re: workshop0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Thu, 11 Jul 2002 23:49:15 EDT552_US-ASCII In a message dated 7/11/2002 8:12:17 PM Pacific Daylight Time, cbma@erols.com writes:

> I get the feeling from some chaverim that to prove our commitment to > Habonim and it's values we must be willing to "sacrifice" our comfort > level by sending our kids over. Not gonna do it. > > What a luxury we have. A real luxury to decide that we will keep our children from death or some kind of harm while people are dying all over the place. I suppose I am being snide- not having "children" the ages of yours- But please- Children- or [...] 9705 343 12_RE: workshop13_Avi Goldstein24_habergo@barak-online.net31_Fri, 12 Jul 2002 07:21:01 +0200375_US-ASCII

For years whenever people have asked me if I made aliyah because I was a zionist I always said, "no, the real zionists stay in America to strengthen the Zionist movement". Now it appears they also go to Australia. I have no objection to Habonim having a program in Australia per se, but if that is the key Habonim program, what does it say for Habonim. [...] 10049 84 12_Re: workshop11_Lon Ephraim14_cbma@erols.com31_Fri, 12 Jul 2002 00:45:09 -0400581_us-ascii



LiberHawke@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 7/11/2002 8:12:17 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > cbma@erols.com writes: >

Really, Susie,

Do you think in raising kids for twenty years (and breathing in and out every minute of every day myself, by the way) I never realized that there are dangers out there not under my control? I make decisions all the time and in the end they are usually practical, not idealogical. I sacrifice ideals all the time - that's life. And as I said in my e-mail, I never claimed to be idealogically pure. [...] 10134 77 25_Fw: Reply From HASBARA US7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Fri, 12 Jul 2002 10:19:41 +0300357_windows-1255 this might be of interest to those who want to help with pr for Israel.

> Dear Friends: If you have not done so, the www.hasbara.us website is > unusually well constructed for the purpose for which it is intended. Check > it out. Jonathan > >Subject: RE: Volunteer Translator for HASBARA US > >Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 19:03:16 +0200 [...] 10212 59 12_Re: workshop0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Fri, 12 Jul 2002 09:51:31 EDT583_US-ASCII In a message dated 7/11/2002 9:46:05 PM Pacific Daylight Time, cbma@erols.com writes:



> To tell you the truth Susie, had you not brought someone else's real tragedy > into this issue of hypothetical fears, I would not have bothered to > respond. Shelly > >

Then why did you? Isn't the point of all of this the fact that all of us are personally vested in the continuance of the Jewish people (or maybe you don't think so- then we have nothing to talk about). This is not an argument about practicality verses ideology. It is an argument that goes [...] 10272 30 12_Re: workshop12_Doug Greener25_ddwgreen@netvision.net.il31_Fri, 12 Jul 2002 10:45:33 +0300535_iso-8859-1 People keep mentioning Young Judea - which indeed continues to fill its year program. A few months I met a young woman from the program who had literally "escaped" from the dorm in Jerusalem to take a tiyul near Jerusalem with an environmental group. While in Jerusalem, they were not allowed off Mt. Scopus, not even to the supermarket in nearby French Hill. To "compensate" their inability to travel on their own, even attend events downtown, she said that Young Judea added many group outings, with proper security. [...] 10303 53 12_Re: workshop11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Fri, 12 Jul 2002 11:40:12 -0400578_us-ascii Doug Greener wrote:

> People keep mentioning Young Judea - which indeed continues to fill its year > program. A few months I met a young woman from the program who had > literally "escaped" from the dorm in Jerusalem to take a tiyul near > Jerusalem with an environmental group. While in Jerusalem, they were not > allowed off Mt. Scopus, not even to the supermarket in nearby French Hill. > To "compensate" their inability to travel on their own, even attend events > downtown, she said that Young Judea added many group outings, with proper > security. > [...] 10357 26 12_Re: workshop11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Fri, 12 Jul 2002 11:44:57 -0400528_us-ascii LiberHawke@aol.com wrote:

> What a luxury we have. A real luxury to decide that we will keep our children from death or some kind of harm while people are dying all over the place. I suppose I am being snide- not having "children" the ages of yours- But please- Children- or YOU - > can die by being hit by crazy or drunk drivers; or by being in the wrong place at the wrong time. The bottom line is do we sacrifice our ideals out of fear. I ask again, how is it possible that Young Judaea's year course is [...] 10384 50 19_Our kids and Israel11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Fri, 12 Jul 2002 09:38:12 -0700560_iso-8859-1 Fellow people

Rather than sit and take sides on this "How do we protect our children" thing, I'd like to relate a story:

A number of years ago, my daughter was doing her 3rd college year away from home, at the Hebrew University. Public buses in Tel Aviv were being bombed. Darya called to tell me that the other American kids in her group had gotten phone calls from their parents to come home. I said, "I don't doubt it. This generation of American kids has never had to make much of a sacrifice for their freedom. And by coming [...] 10435 102 8_Workshop11_Jamie Levin22_mazkir@habonimdror.org31_Fri, 12 Jul 2002 12:36:51 -0400345_iso-8859-1 I would like to take this opportunity to clarify a few issues surrounding Workshop 52:

1. The participants of Workshop 52 have been consulted during the decision making process surrounding the tochnit. The process has been facilitated and directed by youth (the Mazkirut Artzit) at all times. This is youth leading youth. [...] 10538 17 12_Re: workshop0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Fri, 12 Jul 2002 12:42:46 EDT453_US-ASCII I am not asking my child to go an blow up innocent people so that I cna get moentary benefits.....it's that simple...s

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 10556 25 12_Re: workshop11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Fri, 12 Jul 2002 12:50:00 -0400666_us-ascii



LiberHawke@aol.com wrote:

> I am not asking my child to go an blow up innocent people so that I cna get > moentary benefits.....it's that simple...s

I'm not talking about "martyrdom operations" and you know it. Recall discussions about parents who let their kids throw rocks, etc. about 20 months ago.

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 10582 16 12_Re: workshop0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Fri, 12 Jul 2002 13:49:29 EDT403_US-ASCII Sorry Noam- I am having a "senior moment" and dont' recall that....s

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 10599 38 12_Re: workshop11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Fri, 12 Jul 2002 14:01:19 -0400613_us-ascii



LiberHawke@aol.com wrote:

> Sorry Noam- I am having a "senior moment" and dont' recall that....s

Back in the fall of 2000, when the press was hammering Israel for shooting Palestinian kids who were throwing rocks at troops and acting in various ways as proxies for their parents in pursuit of (what they apparently perceived as) the interest of their national struggle, there was much gnashing of teeth here (I seem to recall some notes from you on this topic, but I've been wrong before) about how is it possible for parents to allow their kids to do such things. The [...] 10638 20 12_Re: workshop0_17_JackNusan@aol.com29_Fri, 12 Jul 2002 14:19:02 EDT566_US-ASCII Thank you Shelly. While i applaud ideological commitment, that's for us. My kids are not me. I'm not going to put them into danger. When the danger passes, fine. But not now. Thank you for your supportive letter.

Jack Porter

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 10659 20 12_Re: workshop0_17_JackNusan@aol.com29_Fri, 12 Jul 2002 14:21:19 EDT529_US-ASCII Yes, I agree, Debbie has phrased the issues and questions well. I guess it shows that Jamie and the "front office' need to communicate a bit better with the alumni and others.

Jack Porter

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 10680 26 12_Re: workshop0_17_JackNusan@aol.com29_Fri, 12 Jul 2002 14:26:40 EDT391_US-ASCII Reply to Susie: The Young Judea analogy is unfair; it could be other reasons. "Amnon sacrificed his son". Well, i could say as a child of survivors that my mother "sacrificed" her two daughters (and my two sisters) DURING THE HOLOCAUST. This is ludicrous. Parents have the right to make decisions about their kids and organizations have the right to respond to those feelings. [...] 10707 66 31_A letter from a boger(et) tnuah0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Fri, 12 Jul 2002 14:43:37 EDT410_US-ASCII To Current Habonim members: Dear Chevre, I read with great sadness the reasons and responses to the revelations that you have decided, because of the current "atmosphere" in Israel, to drastically change the Workshop program by spending half of the time in Australia, and then proceding on to Israel in the hopes that the "situation" will be ameliorated by international pressure ( or whatever). [...] 10774 17 23_Re: Our kids and Israel0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Fri, 12 Jul 2002 14:48:41 EDT387_US-ASCII I knew there was something I liked about you. Dennis

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 10792 68 12_FW: Workshop6_Martin20_emskol@bellsouth.net31_Fri, 12 Jul 2002 15:25:48 -0400536_us-ascii > > > > Shalom Habonetters, > > > > The primary goal of todays Workshop tochnit is to create the > > next generation of Progressive-Zionist Leadership capable of > > both critiquing and defending Israel; > > > Maybe it's me but what I see popping out of the above > statement is a fundamental change in the "primary goal" of > Workshop, and possibly, of Habonim-Dror. Back in the "Middle > Ages" (1960s) of Habonim, when I was a chanich and a > Workshopper, the primary goal, as I understood it, was to be > Labor Zionist [...] 10861 46 54_Re: workshop- To Noam ( feel like I am taking a test!)0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Fri, 12 Jul 2002 16:45:28 EDT402_US-ASCII

In a message dated 7/13/02 2:02:11 AM, stopak@orionsci.com writes:

<< The stridency with which some here, and you are among their number, are denouncing the Habonim-Dror maskerut for not sending chanichim into the fray for the entire workshop year seems similar to me. I'm asking you to explain whether you feel it is different, and is so, why you feel it is different. >> [...] 10908 42 54_Re: workshop- To Noam ( feel like I am taking a test!)11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Fri, 12 Jul 2002 16:55:39 -0400575_us-ascii



LiberHawke@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 7/13/02 2:02:11 AM, stopak@orionsci.com writes: > > << The stridency with which some here, and you are among > their number, are denouncing the Habonim-Dror maskerut > for not sending chanichim into the fray for the entire workshop > year seems similar to me. I'm asking you to explain whether > you feel it is different, and is so, why you feel it is different. >> > > Sorry Noam- I don't see the connection- ...SO enough of > this- I think we have reached the end of the conversation....s [...] 10951 39 12_RE: workshop13_Avi Goldstein24_habergo@barak-online.net31_Sat, 13 Jul 2002 00:11:45 +0200554_US-ASCII



-----Original Message----- From: owner-habonet@shamash.org [mailto:owner-habonet@shamash.org] On Behalf Of Noam Stopak Sent: Friday, July 12, 2002 8:01 PM To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: Re: workshop





The stridency with which some here, and you are among their number, are denouncing the Habonim-Dror maskerut for not sending chanichim into the fray for the entire workshop year seems similar to me. I'm asking you to explain whether you feel it is different, and is so, why you feel it is different. [...] 10991 27 54_Re: workshop- To Noam ( feel like I am taking a test!)0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Fri, 12 Jul 2002 17:29:39 EDT311_US-ASCII

In a message dated 7/13/02 4:56:33 AM, stopak@orionsci.com writes:

<< ounds a lot like you are telling me to shut up - if you want to stop responding, feel free, but don't tell me when I'm done with a topic. Weren't you just advocating for your right to express your views here? >> [...] 11019 21 12_Re: workshop0_15_AvivaMT@aol.com29_Fri, 12 Jul 2002 21:52:33 EDT412_US-ASCII Debbie's response covered my take on the issues entirely, i.e. lack of communication about how changes to Workshop are made, whether these changes reflect long term policy and ideological changes (or whether things are expected to calm down soon), why Australia (which I can't believe even as I write it), et al. I do wonder why comparison to Young Judaea's year course is unfair as someone wrote. [...] 11041 47 37_Jews, Palestinians Palestinians, Jews11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Fri, 12 Jul 2002 20:26:06 -0700538_iso-8859-1 Noam

Do you remember how you made me promise to write you when what you are saying slips again into the nonsensical?

OK. Here it goes (It's just a little one this time, but as we say, "No job is too small").

Your comment about how it looks to you that Jews sending their children to Israel looks like " Palestinians using their children as proxies" makes no sense. Noam, I know a 100% sure you thought it made sense when you wrote it, and that is OK, really it is. But maybe if you held on to some of [...] 11089 37 41_Re: Jews, Palestinians Palestinians, Jews0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com29_Sat, 13 Jul 2002 00:58:24 EDT588_US-ASCII I also agree that Noam's comparison was not perfect by any means, but Steve's criticism lacks any sense of logic at all. What Noam was pointing out, I think, was that the sending of children (though I question the use of the term children when refering to Workshoppers, I certainly didn't think of myself that way when I was on Workshop) to Workshop as a symbol of support for Israel is using children as signs of our political or patriotic feelings, similar to the way the Palestinians seem to do. Your arguement, Steve, that this comparison implies that the "Palestinians [...] 11127 79 8_Workshop27_Maxene and Frank Perlmutter24_habesor@netvision.net.il31_Sat, 13 Jul 2002 13:46:12 +0200357_us-ascii I've been following the discussion about the plans for this year's workshop with mixed feelings. I suppose that this is because I am a resident of Israel, a former workshopper (tenth), a parent, and a teacher who is involved in sending Israeli teenagers on educational trips abroad. So let me run down the list and share with you my thoughts. [...] 11207 74 12_Re: Workshop0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Sat, 13 Jul 2002 10:44:54 EDT514_US-ASCII In a message dated 7/13/2002 4:46:54 AM Pacific Daylight Time, habesor@netvision.net.il writes:



> Maybe it's this; parents have the > ultimate responsibility for their own children. They should never feel > guilty or be made to feel guilty about trying to keep their children safe > even if sending their children to Israel or coming themselves happens to be > greatly appreciated by me or my fellow Israelis. At least as an Israeli > parent, teacher et cetera, that's my opinion. > > [...] 11282 76 41_Re: Jews, Palestinians Palestinians, Jews11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Sat, 13 Jul 2002 11:53:23 -0400362_us-ascii Steve Klein wrote:

> Noam > > Do you remember how you made me promise to write you when what you are > saying slips again into the nonsensical? >

Please quote chapter and verse. I think you've slipped the clutch again Steve.

What I remember is asking you to ask the questions you posed to me "in order to provide a framework". [...] 11359 88 41_RE: Jews, Palestinians Palestinians, Jews11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Sat, 13 Jul 2002 09:28:18 -0700689_us-ascii THAT WAS MY POINT -----Original Message----- From: owner-habonet@shamash.org [mailto:owner-habonet@shamash.org]On Behalf Of Richardrdsmith@aol.com Sent: Friday, July 12, 2002 9:58 PM To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: Re: Jews, Palestinians Palestinians, Jews



I also agree that Noam's comparison was not perfect by any means, but Steve's criticism lacks any sense of logic at all. What Noam was pointing out, I think, was that the sending of children (though I question the use of the term children when refering to Workshoppers, I certainly didn't think of myself that way when I was on Workshop) to Workshop as a symbol of support for Israel is using children [...] 11448 108 41_RE: Jews, Palestinians Palestinians, Jews11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Sat, 13 Jul 2002 09:38:22 -0700396_us-ascii Noam

You are right. I went over the edge. The very worst part of me came out in my reaction to you, and I am somewhat ashamed of myself. I not only apologise, which is sincere this time, but I will never react to your stuff again, no matter how disturbed or disturbing I think it is. (Please forgive that last dig. Just cleaning out the last bit of acrimoniousness. Thanks.) [...] 11557 313 48_Fw: New UN Report: ARAB HUMAN DEVELOPMENT CRISIS7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Sun, 14 Jul 2002 00:07:56 +0300582_windows-1255 mighty depressing. translated by Jonathan Silverman.>

YEDIOT AHRONOT Sabbath Supplement Friday July 12, 2002 > > page 8. > > A New UN Report Written By Arab Researchers Tries To Locate The Reasons For > The Backwardness Of The Arab World > > AT THE BOTTOM OF THE LADDER OF WORLD DEVELOPMENT > > Economists, Sociologists, And Other Arab Scholars Have Completed A First Of > Its Kind Report, Which Surveys The Arab World At The Start Of The 21st > Century * The Findings Are Severe: It Will Take 140 Years To Double the > Average Individual’s National Income [...] 11871 37 12_Re: Workshop11_Lon Ephraim14_cbma@erols.com31_Sat, 13 Jul 2002 18:46:11 -0400354_us-ascii



Susie:

After reading your responses, it seems to me that to you, "going on", not strengthening those who "want us swept off the face of the earth", and being "personally vested in the continuance of the Jewish people" can only be done the way you would do it.



Ephraim (you'll always be Frankie to me): [...] 11909 62 8_Workshop12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Sun, 14 Jul 2002 06:46:51 +0200554_us-ascii

Shelly, Shalom. I am at somewhat of a loss by what you (and others) wrote in the following vein: I started to respond to the parts of his letter that moved me to respond, and then decided it was ludicrous to engage in debate of any sort with a man whose family lost a precious son defending Israel. By virtue of Oren’s loss I did not pass over into a separate estate of the untouchables. Ultimately, the operative stanza of Shir la-Shalom is “Let the sun shine in/ Through all the flowers/ Don’t brood on what was/ Let the departed [...] 11972 39 11_Re Workshop12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Sun, 14 Jul 2002 08:00:24 +0200199_us-ascii Frankie/Ephraim I, really really liked your last posting. Because I dislike patronizing I refrain from saying that I'm proud of you. So let me just say that I'm glad I know you.

Amnon 12012 44 20_Happy Birthday Woody0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com29_Sun, 14 Jul 2002 03:47:02 EDT265_US-ASCII There was a great high wall there It tried to stop me A great big sign said, "Private Property," But on the other side It didn't say nothing That side was made for you and me

Happy Woody Guthrie's birthday to all (number 90, for those keeping count) 12057 185 24_RE: Happy Birthday Woody13_Avi Goldstein24_habergo@barak-online.net31_Sun, 14 Jul 2002 23:11:30 +0200295_us-ascii Richard, that was always my favourite verse. Funny how it was left off most recordings.

Avi

There was a great high wall there It tried to stop me A great big sign said, "Private Property," But on the other side It didn't say nothing That side was made for you and me [...] 12243 53 10_Right wing4_Stan17_stan@inter.net.il31_Sun, 14 Jul 2002 14:09:51 +0200306_iso-8859-1 I find it difficult to understand how anyone can grow up in Habomim and still feels close enough to Habonim to be on the Habonet list can be "right wing" Yet Noam on 13/7/02 wrote " the attitude police on Habonet give apass to people who are on the right wing. Do others agree with this charge ? 12297 52 14_Re: Right wing0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com29_Mon, 15 Jul 2002 05:07:24 EDT521_US-ASCII Anyone who doesn't think that many of the contributors to this list are, in many ways, "right wing," has not been paying much attention to what is being said.

I have no objection to people being right wing or expressing right wing ideas. I am right wing on many issues myself. I like the fact that the people who contribute to Habonet express a variety of views. The only view I have ever complained about being expressed are those which suggest that people shouldn't express certain points of view. [...] 12350 140 23_did you say right wing?13_moshe sheskin24_moshes7@netvision.net.il55_Mon, 15 Jul 2002 06:12:50 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time)343_iso-8859-1 Stan, You wrote the following: I find it difficult to understand how anyone can grow up in Habomim and still feels close enough to Habonim to be on the Habonet list can be "right wing" Yet Noam on 13/7/02 wrote " the attitude police on Habonet give apass to people who are on the right wing. Do others agree with this charge ? [...] 12491 53 27_Re: did you say right wing?11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Mon, 15 Jul 2002 08:42:40 -0400560_us-ascii moshe sheskin wrote:

> Stan, You wrote the following:I find it difficult to understand how anyone can grow up in Habomim and still feels close enough to Habonim to be on the Habonet list can be "right wing" Yet Noam on 13/7/02 wrote " the attitude police on Habonet give apass to people who are on the right wing. Do others agree with this charge ? I believe that the use of left and right wing to describe one's political affiliation or position is erroneous. One can be liberal when it comes to economics, as an example and a completely [...] 12545 46 24_Re: Happy Birthday Woody11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Mon, 15 Jul 2002 09:51:26 -0400363_us-ascii Mine too. The story I heard recently on NPR (National Public Radio aka National Palestinian Radio) was that Woody never wrote down that verse and that it was "discovered" by the fellow who does the Folkways achive at the Smithsonian a while back. Still, I remember singing that verse at Mosh 30+ years ago, so it's not like it's a recent discovery. [...] 12592 47 27_Re: did you say right wing?0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Mon, 15 Jul 2002 09:59:27 EDT475_US-ASCII In a message dated 7/15/2002 5:43:37 AM Pacific Daylight Time, stopak@orionsci.com writes:



> My impression after 7 years (!!!) of reading this list is that when > someone uses strong language such as calling another list member > "disturbed" or "a loon", if the target is someone in the settler camp > then there is a large outburst of outrage on the list, while when the > target of derision is someone in the "peace camp", there is no such > outrage 12640 43 14_Re: Right wing0_15_Emabear@aol.com29_Mon, 15 Jul 2002 15:09:05 EDT547_US-ASCII When I was a chanicha, many, many years ago, and then a madricha I loved Habonim because we could all sit, air our opinions, and everyone listened. I didn't say agree, I said listened. In my ken in Cincinnati we had kids from every spectrum but no labels were allowed. I find that as I grow older I have changed my haskafat olam vis a vis politics but never have changed my attitudes about peace, freedom, and love of humankind. I now realize that both the right and the left have peace, in mind. Only their approach is different. I [...] 12684 49 14_Re: Right wing0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Mon, 15 Jul 2002 16:04:46 EDT394_US-ASCII As the tender (caretaker) of a parrot (Bill) who frankly isn't that big on Guthrie- woody, Arlo, or Don, I feel obliged (to no one but myself) to chip in regarding the right wing. It is a well known fact that those who rely to heavily on one wing or the other at first fly in circles, and then as the circles get smaller and small eventually wind up with their heads up their ... [...] 12734 5506 8_Workshop11_Jamie Levin22_mazkir@habonimdror.org31_Mon, 15 Jul 2002 17:11:32 -0400403_iso-8859-1 To the dismay of some and the merriment of others Workshop 52 will be going to Israel for the full ten month period. HD Australia was forced to cancel their involvement in the tochnit for logistical reasons. I have attached the email that was sent to our potential participants after they received personal phone calls from the mazkirut artzit. The email describes the new tochnit, etc. [...] 18241 71 13_Fwd: Workshop0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Mon, 15 Jul 2002 19:00:47 EDT17_US-ASCII

18313 42 13_Fwd: Workshop0_15_DebALev@aol.com29_Mon, 15 Jul 2002 19:02:40 EDT17_US-ASCII

18356 20 21_Jamie's workshop note0_15_DebALev@aol.com29_Mon, 15 Jul 2002 19:06:12 EDT508_US-ASCII Sue and I noticed something interesting.........Jamie's note went out from him individually and not through Habonet. Keep that in mind if and when you respond.

Debbie

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 18377 31 42_Re: Workshop (Alte Kakers as Moneybags...)29_Richard Steacy & Esther Cohen22_richard.steacy@gte.net31_Mon, 15 Jul 2002 20:48:26 -0400579_iso-8859-1 here, here!

-esther cohen mosh 70-75+ mb yd workshop 27 gesher haziv

----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, July 15, 2002 7:00 PM Subject: Fwd: Workshop



> >

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 18409 18 24_Jamie Levin and Workshop9_ben cohen14_bencee@rcn.com31_Mon, 15 Jul 2002 22:59:29 -0400489_iso-8859-1 Bravo Jamie! Very, very well said! I salute you and your generation of Habonim leadership for your zeal and resourcefulness. Ben Cohen, founding member.

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 18428 51 42_Re: Workshop (Alte Kakers as Moneybags...)0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com29_Tue, 16 Jul 2002 00:53:41 EDT241_US-ASCII In a message dated 7/15/02 8:47:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, richard.steacy@gte.net writes:



> here, here! > > -esther cohen > mosh 70-75+ > mb yd > workshop 27 gesher haziv >

Esther, what as this a response to? 18480 89 51_Reflections on Goldie the Oldie- a long short story0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Tue, 16 Jul 2002 01:23:44 EDT650_US-ASCII "OY!- Well...it's hard to get out of bed in the morning- No one told me this was part of getting older-the aches, the pains, OY-my back...well, nu..Today--what will I do today...let's see....I'll go and get the mail, then go to the store,,,maybe put in a few hours at the shul......OY...maybe I'll just stay in bed"...( Goldie dozes off to dreamland)....Yuhhghhghghg,,, yughghghghughghg ( snoring)......Schnitzel the cat comes and lies her little head on Goldie's pumping belly.....All of a sudden, an angel wearing a blue shirt with a red circle flies in the room- Goldie jumps, and Schnitzel hisses..."Wwwhhoo aa--rrreeee yyoouu? And [...] 18570 108 27_Support for HDNA needed now0_15_NEVETS2@aol.com29_Tue, 16 Jul 2002 01:37:51 EDT531_US-ASCII Chevre, Shalom

They say that people give to people, not organizations.

The Habonim Dror Foundation is just about as old as this listserv - 7 years. Are we here old friends already or what? Why, 7 years is a pretty good stretch in Habonim together, no?

So feeling as I do that I know you all by now, please permit me to say that I thank those of you who have been regular contributors to the Habonim Dror Foundation and I urge all of you who have not yet become annual givers to please start now. [...] 18679 44 14_Right and Left4_Stan17_stan@inter.net.il31_Mon, 15 Jul 2002 17:15:07 +0200114_iso-8859-1 Moshe.I am coming to believe that as we all grow older we all grow more to the right. Ask your children 18724 104 42_Re: Workshop (Alte Kakers as Moneybags...)29_Richard Steacy & Esther Cohen22_richard.steacy@gte.net31_Tue, 16 Jul 2002 07:16:30 -0400443_iso-8859-1 someone had voiced the impression, based on the email from jamie, that hdna wants us "old folk" to just put our money where our mouths are. -esther ----- Original Message ----- From: Richardrdsmith@aol.com To: habonet@shamash.org Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2002 12:53 AM Subject: Re: Workshop (Alte Kakers as Moneybags...)



In a message dated 7/15/02 8:47:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, richard.steacy@gte.net writes: [...] 18829 50 34_Jewish nationhood across the globe0_15_NEVETS2@aol.com29_Tue, 16 Jul 2002 11:35:46 EDT508_US-ASCII

In a message dated 7/14/02 12:03:13 AM, habesor@netvision.net.il writes:

<< After all, what is Zionism all about if not an affirmation of Jewish nationhood across the globe. >>

Did y'all catch that?

In the epic,

ongoing,

struggle of the Jewish people to come to terms with the freedoms and staggering opportunities of the "modern world", Zionism has become our essential central project - our common affirmation of Jewish nationhood across the globe. [...] 18880 44 28_Re: just a little respect...11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Tue, 16 Jul 2002 13:58:36 -0400509_us-ascii LiberHawke@aol.com wrote:

> Dear Jamie- > I suppose I am one of those "emotional and reminiscent" alte kakers about > whom you are speaking. Let me just say this. When I was a chanicha, I swore > to myself I would not grow up and become a Pioneer Woman becuase they seemed > so old to me and just sat around and wrote checks. I realize that you are a > "youth" - but I think you have insulted many on this list. ... As a graduate of > Habonim, it is insulting to me to be addressed as if [...] 18925 35 24_Re: shut up and send ...11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Tue, 16 Jul 2002 14:07:44 -0400614_us-ascii DebALev@aol.com wrote:

> Subject: Re: Workshop > Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 18:57:00 EDT > From: DebALev@aol.com > To: mazkir@habonimdror.org > > So, Jamie, what you are basically saying is shut up but send us your money? > > And shut up but send us your kids, grandkids, etc.?

What he basically said was "Your material support, along with dialogue, will help determine whether the light is extinguished or grows brighter. You have shown that you care about the upcoming Workshop, please channel your passion into concrete support." which I read to say, "talk is fine, but along with that, [...] 18961 59 55_RE: Turning the other cheek (request answer from Amnon)11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Tue, 16 Jul 2002 23:44:00 -0700715_US-ASCII Sue

Thanks for being there. It's still good to read your stuff. You wanna come to Toastmasters?

Steve

-----Original Message----- From: owner-habonet@shamash.org [mailto:owner-habonet@shamash.org]On Behalf Of LiberHawke@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2002 4:17 PM To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: Re: Turning the other cheek (request answer from Amnon)



Steve- what is interesting is that those who go out and preach the ideals of these religions in their names and do the opposite make you wonder what the hell is going on- the Crusades, the false prophets, the Golden Calf, etc etc....is it to make the statement that the broad generalizations of religious belief [...] 19021 67 16_Joe Berniker z'l11_Bruce Arbit17_BARBIT@abdata.com31_Wed, 17 Jul 2002 10:53:18 -0500476_iso-8859-1 Today is Joe Berniker's 12th yahrtzeit. No one who knew Joe will ever forget his indefatigable smile and his infectious positive attitude. I will also never forget his laps around the banana fields of Gesher Haziv.

His memory is a blessing to all of us.

http://www.izkor.mod.gov.il/izkor86.asp?t=0 &dir=0&i=0&pab=40102&nab=512377&pdt=510433&ndt=510429 19089 105 19_Fw: The Jenin Story11_Sue Mackson16_susiem6@juno.com31_Wed, 17 Jul 2002 17:35:34 -0400479_-



This from the highly respected military affairs correspondent of Ha'aretz, appeared in today's English language edition. I thought you would each find it quite interesting.and informative and helpful, should the topic ever come up.



Thursday, July 18, 2002 Av 9, 5762 Israel Time: if (!document.layers)document.write('')01:16 (GMT+3)

startTime('01:16:49'); if (document.layers) document.write("");





Back to Jenin [...] 19195 183 47_Workshop, Alumni and the Youth Movement in 20020_14_KBob24@aol.com29_Wed, 17 Jul 2002 23:57:24 EDT507_US-ASCII Folks:

I have mostly hung back, except for one post, observing the exchange over the workshop plans for this year. I want to share my perspective on the situation and the times we live in. I am not speaking on behalf of Habonim Dror, but as an alum who works closely with the leadership in my capacity as chair of the Habonim Dror Foundation. Lastly, as way of introduction, I will respond to various comments made over the past few weeks, but not personally. As we say, Hamavin Yavin. [...] 19379 29 20_Re: Joe Berniker z'l0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com29_Thu, 18 Jul 2002 01:23:39 EDT88_US-ASCII Is there anyone out there kind enough to translate the article in this message? 19409 32 51_Re: Workshop, Alumni and the Youth Movement in 20020_15_Marshlf@aol.com29_Thu, 18 Jul 2002 08:32:09 EDT41_US-ASCII well said, ken....

--lisa 19442 148 32_wonderful golani brigade project7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Thu, 18 Jul 2002 16:13:49 +0300586_Windows-1252 > shalom, When I wrote the letters about the death of Gedalya in the battle in Jenin, I could have no inkling of the effect that those letters would have, nor that they would be forwarded to the ends of the earth and reprinted in newspapers from Australia to the United States. Evidently thousands of people have been affected by the life and death of our dear Gedalya and they have shown this through correspondence to us, trips to Israel in order to meet Gedalya's family, additional giving to Jewish and Israeli causes, and increased awareness of their Judaism and [...] 19591 57 31_3 new Israel advocacy websites!7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Thu, 18 Jul 2002 16:21:20 +0300595_windows-1255 > Dear Pearl, shalom: Over the past couple of weeks, I have discovered three > new Israel advocacy websites. I’m not > positive who constructed them, but they are astonishingly well constructed, > with tons of useful information in the struggle against Arab propaganda etc. > You should check them out and spread the word: > > www.hasbara.us > > They are based in Ramat Gan and are aggressively seeking volunteers. > > http://www.jewishinternetassociation.org/ > > "For the mouth of them that speak lies shall be stopped." > Psalm 63:12 > > This is the home page of the Jewish [...] 19649 74 31_Re: Article on Joe Berniker z'l12_Doug Greener25_ddwgreen@netvision.net.il31_Thu, 18 Jul 2002 17:25:35 +0300247_iso-8859-1 Sorry, I would have translated the article for you (from the Government Memorial Site) about Joe Berniker, but the Hebrew text showed up backwards on my screen. Does anyone know why this happens, and what I can do about it?

Trudy 19724 174 36_Fw: wonderful golani brigade project7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Thu, 18 Jul 2002 17:59:43 +0300557_Windows-1252

> > shalom, > When I wrote the letters about the death of Gedalya in the battle in Jenin, > I could have no inkling of the effect that those letters would have, nor > that they would be forwarded to the ends of the earth and reprinted in > newspapers from Australia to the United States. Evidently thousands of > people have been affected by the life and death of our dear Gedalya and they > have shown this through correspondence to us, trips to Israel in order to > meet Gedalya's family, additional giving to Jewish and Israeli [...] 19899 18 51_Re: Workshop, Alumni and the Youth Movement in 20020_17_JackNusan@aol.com29_Thu, 18 Jul 2002 15:23:24 EDT374_US-ASCII Thank YOU Bob.

Jack Nusan porter

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 19918 64 24_Kumsitz in Yerushalayim!0_13_SC523@aol.com29_Fri, 19 Jul 2002 00:36:36 EDT550_US-ASCII Dear Chevreh,

This is a difficult time for all in Israel, but I hope it is still appropriate to find a bit of hope in gathering together. As such, Ora Blau Maggen and I would like to invite Habochevreh from near and far to gather for a summer kumsitz in her garden in Yerushalayim on Saturday night, 24 August, at 7 PM. Bring instruments, bring old shironim, and bring yourselves. Fill a car if you're coming from far. Think of songs you haven't had a chance to sing in years. Think of the bass part you almost remember from Uru [...] 19983 808 22_Israeli public opinion15_Leo Diesendruck18_leodie@isdn.net.il31_Fri, 19 Jul 2002 14:13:23 +0200321_us-ascii This is a report on a public opinion survey held by the "Dahaf" institute of Mina Zemach recently. This is a very well-regarded institute here. The results are surprising (to those of us who get our English news from the Jerusalem Post for example). Can anyone give me internet site of the complete report? [...] 20792 88 61_=?iso-8859-1?B?5PLh+OQ6IEJFSCBZRUhVREEgRkFJUlMgaW4gVS5TLg==?=8_ericmoli25_ericmoli@netvision.net.il31_Fri, 19 Jul 2002 18:08:29 +0200472_iso-8859-1

To the correspondents of Habonet:

My cousin highly recommends joining the Ben Yehuda Fairs for the benefit of Israel. What have you actually DONE, lately for Israel? Still thinking of setting up playgrounds, here?

Shalom Rav, Mollie Marx



----- Original Message ----- From: Mayim@aol.com To: ericmoli@netvision.net.il Cc: amnonhen@internet-zahav.net Sent: Friday, July 19, 2002 8:26 AM Subject: BEH YEHUDA FAIRS in U.S. [...] 20881 21 28_Re: BEN YEHUDA FAIRS in U.S.11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Fri, 19 Jul 2002 11:12:48 -0400510_us-ascii

Are these ongoing events?

There was one a few weeks back at the JCC in Rockville MD which was hugely successful - at least gauging from how hard it was to park.

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 20903 36 28_Re: Kumsitz in Yerushalayim!12_Doug Greener25_ddwgreen@netvision.net.il31_Fri, 19 Jul 2002 16:16:15 +0300541_iso-8859-1 Aliya,

Funny you should mention Uru HaTzofeh...

A couple of years ago the conductor of my choir pulled out the music for the Bach Chorale for - Uru HaTzofeh! but with different words. I asked Habonet to help me remember the words we sang at camp. Several people responded, but Abba Caspi added that (unbeknowst to us!) the words we always sang actually had a Christian Messianic meaning to them. The words my present choir sings are all about, why the evil prosper and how we cannot know the workings of God... [...] 20940 40 24_Jews and Arabs, together11_Mollie Marx25_ericmoli@netvision.net.il28_Fri, 19 Jul 2002 11:53 -0400533_iso-8859-1 Hi All, At last a journalism reporting with fairness. Like to hear your comments on it.

Mollie (Marx) ____________________________________________________________

The following story appeared in The Globe Online: Headline: Jews and Arabs, together Date: 7/18/2002 Byline:

" ISRAEL'S IMAGE got a black eye last week when its Cabinet voted to advance a bill that would have barred Arab citizens from buying homes in some Galilee towns." ____________________________________________________________ [...] 20981 185 52_playgrounds in Israel in memorial for Arab soldiers.7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Fri, 19 Jul 2002 19:49:03 +0300562_iso-8859-1 Mollie, shalom,

In answer to your question, I met with two Beduin that live in Beth Zarzir, which is in the Galil, near Nazareth. That village has lost many soldiers in various wars and army actions. They liked the idea of the park or several small parks which would be established in honour of their many fallen soldiers. I just have to work on it. The cost is astronomic. They thought it would be $100,000. My sister set up an amuta in Gedalya's memory, but it is with the idea of memorializing soldiers who do not have memorials set up [...] 21167 40 61_=?iso-8859-1?B?4fLw6envOiBCRU4gWUVIVURBIEZBSVJTIGluIFUuUy4=?=8_ericmoli25_ericmoli@netvision.net.il31_Fri, 19 Jul 2002 22:35:57 +0200458_iso-8859-1 Dear Noam,

This fair is the one that my cousin was referring to, I think. Tell me, are you related to a Harry Stopack. I grew up with him and his wife, Sylvia Fine (from D.C.). They had been a couple of my favorite people, way back then.

All the best, Mollie ----- Original Message ----- From: Noam Stopak To: Sent: Friday, July 19, 2002 5:12 PM Subject: Re: BEN YEHUDA FAIRS in U.S. [...] 21208 156 55_RE: Turning the other cheek (request answer from Amnon)12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Sun, 21 Jul 2002 21:48:46 +0200443_us-ascii Steve, you forwarded Sue's July 2 message which I hadn't seen -- I think that some gremlin eats some of the postings that come in digest form. I have two different "answers." But first a generalization. At teacher at Oranim, the kibbutz teacher seminar told us that there are no good answers, only good questions. Anything one can look up doesn't really rate as a question -- it is a request for information. So now two answers. [...] 21365 153 23_Labor/Social Democrats?16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Sun, 21 Jul 2002 17:26:38 -0400400_us-ascii several articles of interest. The first from today's Jerusalem Post; the other[s] from Ha'aretz. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Jul. 21, 2002 Social Democratic Party to be launched next month By THE ITIM NEWS SERVICE

Former Meretz MK Haim Oron will head the inaugural assembly of the new Social Democratic Party, according to its founders, who met Friday at Beit Berl near Tel Aviv. [...] 21519 59 55_Re: Turning the other cheek (request answer from Amnon)0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Mon, 22 Jul 2002 08:42:44 EDT433_US-ASCII Dear Amnon & Susie,

I am a Jew, therefore I make a distinction.

There are precisely 21/2 threads of religious thought. "I have the Answer," "I seek the Answer" and the lunatic relativist answer so big currently, "we all have the Answer."

I however, do have the answer. Those who have "the" answer are always wrong, and the consequences of knowing that everyone else wrong are grave (pun intended). [...] 21579 79 25_Workshop this coming year13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Mon, 22 Jul 2002 09:51:36 -0400401_us-ascii Dear Chevreh,

On July 7, I picked up my enthusiastic son from Mosh on visiting day so that we could go to a cousin's bar mitzvah in Israel. As he told me his future Habonim plans (which include MB no matter where), he said that he was planning to go on workshop "even if it is in Australia". My reaction was "why the hell would it be in Australia? What kind of nonsense is that?" [...] 21659 36 29_RE: Workshop this coming year11_Batel Libes25_batel_libes@earthlink.net31_Mon, 22 Jul 2002 07:27:11 -0700567_US-ASCII Hi, One of the things Judy wrote: 4) If the idea is to strengthen the movement, why not spend 6 months of workshop working in the movement in the US and Canada? Isn't that how the first Habonim Israel programs worked?

I heard several similar comments on visiting day at Gilboa. There were a few madrichim who did not go on workshop and said they would have loved to participate in an organized Habonim-work related program in the US. The West Coast, for instance could have used this kind of help a great deal. There were many more comments, but [...] 21696 33 29_Re: Workshop this coming year0_18_Green88888@aol.com29_Mon, 22 Jul 2002 10:49:36 EDT401_US-ASCII I just found out that B'nai Akiva has six buses on their teen program this summer in Israel. Young Judaea claims to have 140 participants next year for year course. Granted we are a much smaller movement-but what does message do we give to our kids if we even contemplate not sending them to Israel. Sorry Jamie, I respect your sincerity and opinions very much- but I can't say I agree! Donna 21730 87 20_new staff at the HDF14_Jessica Silver26_foundation@habonimdror.org31_Mon, 22 Jul 2002 11:26:16 -0400429_iso-8859-1 Hi Habonetters,

After a year and a half of work with the Habonim Dror Foundation, I am leaving the job at the end of this month. I've enjoyed getting to know you all through Habonet, and meeting many of you personally along the way. I'm leaving the Foundation in the capable hands of Rachel Jenkins-Stevens, a Habonim alumna from Berkeley, CA. Without further delay, I'll let Rachel introduce herself..... [...] 21818 45 16_new staff at HDF14_Jessica Silver26_foundation@habonimdror.org31_Mon, 22 Jul 2002 12:43:01 -0400107_iso-8859-1 BTW- the last email was from me....Jessica (current HDF Director). In case it wasn't obvious. :) 21864 27 55_Re: Turning the other cheek (request answer from Amnon)0_15_DebALev@aol.com29_Mon, 22 Jul 2002 12:34:00 EDT564_US-ASCII Dennis, that gave me a headache. 8-)

Reminded me of something a rabbi friend told me, that there are really only three sermons, basically.

1. be a good person 2. be Jewish 3. give money





Debbie

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 21892 385 51_Re: Workshop, Alumni and the Youth Movement in 20025_YIGAL18_ysela@inter.net.il31_Mon, 22 Jul 2002 20:12:44 +0200491_iso-8859-1 I was out of town and have now just read Ken's posting on the Habonet. I wish to stand behind Ken (if he will allow me to do so, I will be hard to see as I am only 5 foot 8 inches short). I admire and agree with his continual backing and support of the movement leadership. I agree. This is a youth movement for the youth run by the youth. Although there is a tremendous need for the input of the allumini (in fact this is what makes Habo so unique) at the end of the day it [...] 22278 63 61_=?iso-8859-1?B?4fLw6envOiBXb3Jrc2hvcCB0aGlzIGNvbWluZyB5ZWFy?=8_ericmoli25_ericmoli@netvision.net.il31_Mon, 22 Jul 2002 20:23:47 +0200345_iso-8859-1 Dear Batel,

I was on the 2nd Workshop. It was never suggested that we should return "home" and work for the movement. The only suggestion that was flying around in the air was to make alyia, which a third of our group eventually did (20 out of 60 chevre). And of all the many madrichim I ever had only one (1) made alyia. [...] 22342 140 49_=?iso-8859-1?B?5PLh+OQ6IEh1c2JhbmRzLi4uLi4uLi4=?=8_ericmoli25_ericmoli@netvision.net.il31_Mon, 22 Jul 2002 20:55:10 +0200559_iso-8859-1

----- Original Message ----- From: ROSEHzlRs@aol.com To: P.Arnhem@btopenworld.com ; LNBAGEL@aol.com ; rozalind@netvision.net.il ; IlanaMdeM@aol.com ; felberg@netvision.net.il ; Jggrmtchcv@aol.com ; ericmoli@netvision.net.il ; vantz@adelphia.net ; aryeh@kfar-hanassi.org.il Sent: Sunday, July 21, 2002 1:37 PM Subject: Husbands........



HUSBANDS

A young man married a beautiful woman who had previously divorced ten husbands. On their wedding night, she told her new husband, "Please be gentle; I'm still a virgin. [...] 22483 17 27_Re: Labor/Social Democrats?0_17_JackNusan@aol.com31_Mon, 22 Jul 2002 15:24:10 -0400414_iso-8859-1 My new email by the way is

Jack Nusan Porter

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 22501 173 11_Choose Life12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Tue, 23 Jul 2002 21:16:53 +0200570_iso-8859-1 KEY WORDS - COLLECTIVE MEMORY

Last night we went to a wedding of a friend’s granddaughter. It was five days after Tishah be-Av and so the rabbi stressed the connection between the groom’s smashing of the glass and Psalms 137. (Manifestly Freudian at first in the part recited at weddings: If I forget thee, O Jerusalem, let my right hand forget her cunning. Let my tongue cleave to the roof of my mouth, if I remember thee not; if I set not Jerusalem above my chiefest joy. It gets overtly bloody-minded at the end of the short psalm: Remember, O [...] 22675 29 21_The Sounds of silence0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com29_Tue, 23 Jul 2002 20:26:21 EDT124_US-ASCII I find it rather strange that no one has anything to say about the operation that Sharon called, "a great success." 22705 104 25_RE: The Sounds of silence11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Wed, 24 Jul 2002 00:13:17 -0700533_us-ascii Dick

Please explain.

Is this a rhetorical statement?

Is it cryptic?

Are you trying to say something?

It's always a pleasure.

Steve -----Original Message----- From: owner-habonet@shamash.org [mailto:owner-habonet@shamash.org]On Behalf Of Richardrdsmith@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2002 5:26 PM To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: The Sounds of silence



I find it rather strange that no one has anything to say about the operation that Sharon called, "a great success." 22810 42 25_Re: The Sounds of silence0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com29_Wed, 24 Jul 2002 04:39:42 EDT547_US-ASCII Steve, I am so glad you asked. Imagine my surprise that you should choose to write to me, after all the last thing you said to me was to "kiss off."

My question was not rhetorical. I find it odd that no one has an opinion about this major news story. If you want my opinion (which I find odd, Steve, because of your rather offensive replies to me lately) I think the only thing stupider than firing a missile at an apartment building to kill one individual is to then call the assault which killed nine children including two [...] 22853 34 25_Re: The Sounds of silence0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com29_Wed, 24 Jul 2002 04:42:25 EDT246_US-ASCII Steve,

As a champion of free speech, I will not ask that you be banned from this list for asking me to "kiss off," or for your attempt to insult me by calling me Dick. I hope I can expect the same tolerance when I call you a dick. 22888 37 25_Re: The sounds of silence13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Wed, 24 Jul 2002 07:39:59 -0400525_us-ascii Dear Steve, By calling him "Dick", are you trying to say something? The socially acceptance thing to do is to call people by the names they prefer and not by nicknames they do not want used. His name is Richard. Dear Richard, I was out all day and so didn't see my email until this morning, but what is there to say? Getting rid of the head of the military wing of Hamas without the kind of house to house operation that was undertaken in Jenin is theoretically a good idea but doing it with an F 16 bombing to [...] 22926 42 25_Re: The Sounds of silence13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il31_Wed, 24 Jul 2002 17:21:56 +0200117_iso-8859-1 That's because we fucked it up. There had to be a way to whack that guy without killing all his neighbors. 22969 59 25_Re: The Sounds of silence0_18_Brianscoop@aol.com29_Wed, 24 Jul 2002 10:42:40 EDT600_US-ASCII > That's because we fucked it up. There had to be a way to whack > that guy without killing all his neighbors.

I'm not convinced it was accidental. Israel has been loudly floating ideas about raising the cost to the families of the terror perpetrators.

And whether we hurt families and friends or not, John, do you think that "whacking" these guys will make any difference at all? Certainly it will not advance us any further toward peace negotiations. Do you think it will make Israel safer? (Seriously interested in your and others' opinions -- this is not rhetorical.) [...] 23029 155 62_Fools, said I, you do not know, silence like a cancer grows...13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il31_Wed, 24 Jul 2002 18:30:35 +0200605_windows-1255 Hey Brian. Nice of you to respond. I didn't say it was "accidental". The F-16 didn't miss. An attack like this requires careful planning, painstaking intelligence gathering, and, quite possibly, operatives on the ground who "target" the missile or bomb. I said we fucked it up because we did. We (that is, Israelis and our friends abroad) are always trying to claim the moral high ground, and we pride ourselves on taking the pains to avoid needless casualties amongst the enemy population, not that we always succeed. Killing so many innocent people in order to get to the terrorist is [...] 23185 148 20_did we "fuck" it up?13_moshe sheskin24_moshes7@netvision.net.il55_Wed, 24 Jul 2002 11:58:11 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time)563_iso-8859-1 Brian, Although it is regretable that innocent civilians were killed, maybe this killing will save more of us Israelis who have been the innocent victims of this murderous fiend. We're not lily white when it comes to acts of reprisal but we can take George Bush as an example when Americans killed innocent civilians, far in excess of what happened in Gaza. He just apologized and went on killing with the claim that it was accidental. We of course will be blamed by the world as it has been the custom for Israel to be the whipping boy. When the [...] 23334 96 37_and the sign flashed out it's warning11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Wed, 24 Jul 2002 12:09:58 -0400597_us-ascii I always enjoy notes from Jonathan, even though I don't always agree with them, because he speaks from the heart and doesn't pull his punches.



> Jonathan Baum wrote: > > Hey Brian. Nice of you to respond. > I didn't say it was "accidental". The F-16 didn't miss. An attack like this requires careful planning, painstaking intelligence gathering, and, quite possibly, operatives on the ground who "target" the missile or bomb. I said we fucked it up because we did. We (that is, Israelis and our friends abroad) are always trying to claim the moral high ground, and we [...] 23431 50 24_Re: did we "fuck" it up?0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com29_Wed, 24 Jul 2002 13:20:12 EDT577_US-ASCII In a message dated 7/24/02 11:59:28 AM Eastern Daylight Time, moshes7@netvision.net.il writes:



> Actually it won't make a difference. The only time pece will come to Israel > is when the Arabs learn to live in peace with each other. When they will > begin to value life and not use their children as fodder. When they will > accept their reponsibility for creating the refugee problem and solve it. > In the meantime we will let their military leaders know that we won't rest > until everyone of them goes to their maker even if it means that they [...] 23482 310 27_a partial answer to Richard7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Wed, 24 Jul 2002 20:36:41 +0300587_Windows-1252 As painful as this operation was in terms of innocents being killed, I cannot lift my voice because my family and friends have buried too many people the past few years, including a baby a few months old, my nephew, my friend's daughter (blown to bits only a month ago), my friends the Schyveshuders (the parents with threeof their children), my son's friends (a couple who left 6 children, including a baby), my nephew's friends (a young couple), the children of at least 4 different acquaintences of mine, two cousins and my sister injured in attacks, the uncle of a [...] 23793 252 27_a partial answer to Richard7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Wed, 24 Jul 2002 20:38:30 +0300493_Windows-1252

This appeared in the Chicago Tribune on July 14, 2002. > > > > A doctor's story: Awaiting the wounded > > > > By Dr. Avraham Rivkind. Dr. Avraham Rivkind is head of the department of > > general surgery and the trauma unit at Hadassah University Hospital in > > Jerusalem > > > > July 14, 2002 > > > > When a human bomb goes off in Jerusalem, I know within seconds. I wear two > > beepers and a cell phone, even to bed. Nearly always, driving my own car, > I > > can [...] 24046 68 51_Re: a partial answer to Richard - and a ray of hope11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Wed, 24 Jul 2002 13:56:13 -0400547_us-ascii

This is how I believe the conflict will be ended. Real people demonstrating real compassion and changing hearts and minds one at a time. Not by killing people either one at a time or in bunches.

As Amnon recently urged, I "choose life".

Noam

Skolnik wrote:

> ... > > > > Everyone treated equally > > > > > > The lines of ambulances, inevitably, bring a fair percentage of Arab > > > patients. > > > > > > We can't tell whether they are perpetrators or victims. Even if we could, > > > it wouldn't [...] 24115 140 25_Fw: Training Rides Update14_Jessica Silver26_foundation@habonimdror.org31_Wed, 24 Jul 2002 14:28:06 -0400653_iso-8859-1 An update about the Jewish Environmental bike ride that I posted about previously. It's not too late to register!

-----Original Message----- From: Hazon To: Silver, Jessica Date: Tuesday, July 23, 2002 3:07 PM Subject: Training Rides Update



Hi!

Sunday's training ride was a beautiful day out. A group of 14 or so of us met at 72 and Riverside and rode up Riverside Drive and over the George Washington Bridge. While there were some experienced cyclists among us, about half the group had never been over the GWB and a few were nervous about riding in the street [...] 24256 333 31_Re: a partial answer to Richard13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Wed, 24 Jul 2002 16:06:57 -0400316_us-ascii Dear Pearl,

I hear your pain and I know it is real and shared by people in Israel across the political spectrum. However, I find it disheartening that after experiencing such pain , your reaction is not one of empathy for the relatives of these children but "I would rather it be them than me." [...] 24590 339 31_Re: a partial answer to Richard13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Wed, 24 Jul 2002 16:22:36 -0400543_us-ascii Sorry! My spell checker changed "hardening" to "heartening" Judy

Judith Gelman wrote:

> Dear Pearl, > > I hear your pain and I know it is real and shared by people in Israel across the > political spectrum. However, I find it disheartening that after experiencing > such pain , your reaction is not one of empathy for the relatives of these > children but "I would rather it be them than me." > > I have been taught that when you hear an ambulance that you may pray "let the > victim be rescued" but not "let it be [...] 24930 33 66_Re: Fools, said I, you do not know, silence like a cancer grows...0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Wed, 24 Jul 2002 16:29:51 EDT437_US-ASCII I found it very interesting that after the US negative response to the F-16 attack on a Hamas leader, that my wife - not a Jew, and a person who cannot watch most movies because of the violence, said, "Of course its terrible when children get killed, but this is a hell of a lot better than when children go looking for other children to blow up. Why should Israel be held to a different standard than the US?" Why indeed? [...] 24964 38 24_a thought on the bombing14_Holtzer Family20_carmdave@urim.org.il31_Wed, 24 Jul 2002 23:39:47 +0200480_iso-8859-1 Yes, we fucked up. We killed a few innocent people thru bad intelligence when killing a terrorist leader. But, folks, let's put things in prospective. I don't have to repeat Pearl's long list of innocent friends and relatives killed on purpose by the suicide bombers of the P.A. Did the world go ga-ga when the US bombed a wedding party in Afghanistan? Or the Chinese Embassy in Bosnia? The US said they made a mistake and moved on. Exactly what we ALL should do. [...] 25003 259 38_a partial answer to Richard's question7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Wed, 24 Jul 2002 20:40:26 +0300485_Windows-1252 > > > This appeared in the Chicago Tribune on July 14, 2002. > > > > -------------------- > > The damage done . . . > > -------------------- > > > > A doctor's story: Awaiting the wounded > > > > By Dr. Avraham Rivkind. Dr. Avraham Rivkind is head of the department of > > general surgery and the trauma unit at Hadassah University Hospital in > > Jerusalem > > > > July 14, 2002 > > > > When a human bomb goes off in Jerusalem, I know within seconds. I wear two > > [...] 25263 102 7_shehada7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Thu, 25 Jul 2002 00:51:32 +0300595_iso-8859-1 > 1. SHEHADA: A PROFILE IN RELIGIOUS MOSLEM TERRORISM > As the world continues to criticize Israel for its killing of > arch-terrorist Salah Shehada in his hideout amidst a crowded residential > area in Gaza, the IDF released a report today detailing some of Shehada's > recent murderous activities. He was a founder of Hamas, the commander and > central figure in its military wing, directly responsible for hundreds of > attacks committed against Israelis, and known to be planning further severe > acts of terror. > Salah Shehada was a man who combined a > social work career [...] 25366 45 66_Re: Fools, said I, you do not know, silence like a cancer grows...0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com29_Wed, 24 Jul 2002 17:47:26 EDT380_US-ASCII In a message dated 7/24/02 4:31:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time, DLerner569@aol.com writes:



> Why should Israel be held to a > different standard than the US?" Why indeed? >

Who has done this? I certainly don't hold Israel to a higher standard than I hold my own country, the U.S.. Forgive me, has the U.S. used a one ton missile to kill one individual? 25412 86 28_Re: a thought on the bombing0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com29_Wed, 24 Jul 2002 17:51:31 EDT582_US-ASCII In a message dated 7/24/02 4:39:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time, carmdave@urim.org.il writes:



> Yes, we fucked up. We killed a few innocent people thru bad intelligence > when killing a terrorist leader. But, folks, let's put things in > prospective. I don't have to repeat Pearl's long list of innocent friends > and relatives killed on purpose by the suicide bombers of the P.A. Did the > world go ga-ga when the US bombed a wedding party in Afghanistan? Or the > Chinese Embassy in Bosnia? The US said they made a mistake and moved on. > Exactly what we [...] 25499 61 15_i'm empathizing7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Thu, 25 Jul 2002 01:13:23 +0300413_windows-1255 judy,

Shahada was actively planning an attack with a 600 kilo bomb on Jewish youngsters . Thousands of kids go to the concert which he planned to blow up with that truck.

I empathize, but do not question my humanity because I am not beating my breast. Too many Israelis are lying in their graves because of that man. They will not have children. Their family line ended with them. [...] 25561 56 49_Wall Street Journal- Dennis Ross- July 24th, 200211_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org31_Wed, 24 Jul 2002 20:42:25 -0500609_us-ascii The Hidden Threat in the Mideast Iran and Syria try to open a second front.

BY DENNIS ROSS Wednesday, July 24, 2002 12:01 a.m. EDT

It's no surprise that the Israeli killing of wanted Hamas militant Salah Shehada and members of his family has drawn the world's attention. It is graphic and it reminds everyone of a seemingly endless struggle. But having just returned from the Middle East, I am struck by a burgeoning danger that is receiving scant attention. With a constant stream of supply from both the Iranians and Syrians, Hezbollah is building a formidable arsenal of highly [...] 25618 32 66_Re: Fools, said I, you do not know, silence like a cancer grows...13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Thu, 25 Jul 2002 00:01:44 -0400527_us-ascii The bombs that fell on the wedding party in Afghanistan were a mistake, but they weren't errant. The person the US trusted to target bombs from the ground was a warlord who used his position to target a bomb to kill off a rival warlord and his entire family on their way to a wedding.. So, yes, we have used a huge bomb to kill off one person--and we did it as the tool of one party in Afghanistan rather than became we decided to do it. And in addition, according to NPR, the military continued to use this same [...] 25651 18 66_Re: Fools, said I, you do not know, silence like a cancer grows...0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Thu, 25 Jul 2002 00:08:49 EDT378_US-ASCII Richard, Would it hesitate to do so? Dennis

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 25670 38 66_Re: Fools, said I, you do not know, silence like a cancer grows...0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com29_Thu, 25 Jul 2002 00:40:21 EDT215_US-ASCII Dennis I think so. Richard

But you know even if it wouldn't, I think it should, or at the very least stop telling people that they hesitate to act when they think innocent civilians might get killed. 25709 356 61_=?windows-1255?B?5PLh+DogRlc6IEE=?= WorldNetDaily.com article0_19_simagr@telhai.ac.il31_Thu, 25 Jul 2002 09:45:12 +0300779_windows-1255 To view the entire article, visit http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=28386

Wednesday, July 24, 2002 ------------------------------------------------------------------ An airline pilot challenges Arab Muslims in America By John Maniscalco ------------------------------------------------------------------

Posted: July 24, 2002 1:00 a.m. Eastern

You worry me. I wish you didn't. I wish when I walked down the streets of this country that I love, that your color and culture still blended with the beautiful human landscape we enjoy in this country. But you don't blend in anymore. I notice you, and it worries me. I notice you because I can't help it anymore. People from your homelands, professing to be Muslims, have [...] 26066 79 28_Re: a thought on the bombing14_Holtzer Family20_carmdave@urim.org.il31_Thu, 25 Jul 2002 14:11:56 +0200301_iso-8859-1 Ok, Richard, maybe emailing the Pres, congress, etc in the US is not the best way. Forgive me, it was after 11:30 PM and I get up before 5:30 for work.... Maybe we should expand the list to leaders in Europe, the UN, the press, etc. What do you think? Maybe something else altogether? [...] 26146 28 11_Re: shehada11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Thu, 25 Jul 2002 09:02:58 -0400584_us-ascii



Skolnik wrote:

> > 1. SHEHADA: A PROFILE IN RELIGIOUS MOSLEM TERRORISM...

Hi Pearl,

When you forward materials to the list, could you please also provide an indication of the source?

Thank you,

Noam

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 26175 54 35_Re: FW: A WorldNetDaily.com article11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Thu, 25 Jul 2002 09:21:02 -0400629_us-ascii simagr@telhai.ac.il wrote:

> ... > Wednesday, July 24, 2002 > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > An airline pilot challenges > Arab Muslims in America > By John Maniscalco > ...

> Do you and your fellow Muslims hate us because our women proudly show their > faces in public rather than cover up like a shameful whore? > > Do you and your fellow Muslims hate us because we drink wine with dinner or > celebrate Christmas? Do you and your fellow Muslims hate us because we have > befriended Israel, the only civilized democratic nation in the entire Middle > East? And [...] 26230 26 66_Re: Fools, said I, you do not know, silence like a cancer grows...0_12_SHX2@aol.com29_Thu, 25 Jul 2002 10:02:10 EDT633_US-ASCII

In a message dated 7/25/02 12:14:12 AM, gelman@erols.com writes:

<< others criticize us at their own peril since we are the biggest, richest kid on the block and the one with the coolest toys everyone wants to play with. >>

Mel Brooks: "It's good to be king!.""

Steve H

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 26257 380 12_Gaza bombing16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Thu, 25 Jul 2002 10:56:29 -0400651_us-ascii Two separate and discrete pieces in reference to the recent Israeli bombing of the Gaza building where Hamas leader Sheikh Salah Shehada and a dozen others, including sundry women and children, were killed. The first is a statement released last night by the Labor Zionist Alliance. The second is a critical bromide sent out by Arthur Waskow, which raises some interesting and disturbing questions. (The implication I take from Waskow's piece is that he believes that the Israeli government, or some individuals within the govt/military/security apparat, took it upon themselves to sabotage what might have been Palestinian moves to end [...] 26638 432 52_Growing Non-Jewish Population Concerns Some Israelis16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Thu, 25 Jul 2002 11:21:51 -0400168_us-ascii The following article was recently syndicated by the Chicago Tribune. So much for Jewish self-labor.

http://www.beliefnet.org/story/109/story_10972.html 27071 77 3_war11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Thu, 25 Jul 2002 08:40:04 -0700566_iso-8859-1 To my fellow subscribers

It's taken a few days to formulate a reaction to currents happenings. During that time, a lot of faster-thinking people have contributed their reactions to the Gaza strike. I don't think there is going to be any new ground broken by the sharing of my paticular thoughts. Clearly, however, this is also is not a time to stand by as a neutral observor, because a line has been crossed. One of the problems is that it is difficult to calculate what kind of line that was. Or what it should become. My own feeling is that [...] 27149 25 15_John Maniscalco11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Thu, 25 Jul 2002 08:50:06 -0700430_iso-8859-1 JOHN MANISCALCO'S ARTICLE?

Strong and to the point. It reads as if he is passionate and sincere (and fed up). I am sure that discerning people reading it assume he is not speaking about every single Arab or Muslim when he wrote what he did. Of those readers that have a major problem with the contentions set forth in the article, please post your thoughts. It would be good for a productive public debate. [...] 27175 398 34_bombing of civilians press release11_Jamie Levin22_mazkir@habonimdror.org31_Thu, 25 Jul 2002 11:44:51 -0400780_iso-8859-1













24 July 2002



** FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE **

Contact: Ari M. Chester (212) 366-1194



LABOR ZIONIST ALLIANCE CRITICIZES ISRAELI GOVERNMENT FOR GAZA BOMBING

The Labor Zionist Alliance today sharply criticized the Israeli government for its bombing attack in Gaza City, which killed a Hamas leader and fourteen civilians, including several children.

LZA leadership issued the following statement: “We have been sympathetic to and supportive of Israel’s right to defend itself against terror, including its right to attack terrorist leaders. We also recognize that the accidental killing of civilians is often an unfortunate result. But there must be some limits on [...] 27574 105 16_Re: Gaza bombing0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Thu, 25 Jul 2002 14:25:12 EDT687_ISO-8859-1 Sometimes I become confused between naiveté and sophistication.

We (Israel) is at war with the leadership of the Palestinians, not just the formal leaders, but the faction leaders as well. The army of the Palestinians is largely ununiformed, predominantly civilian, and actively recruits youngsters for its suicide missions. The supplies for this army come from other Arab country governments, from sympathetic and/or cynical Arabs and Muslims around the world, from anti-Semites of the classical stripe, and from the naive and misguided liberals who can't think beyond reaching out to the perceived oppressed underdog, regardless of the actual facts. Behind this [...] 27680 83 66_Re: Fools, said I, you do not know, silence like a cancer grows...7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Thu, 25 Jul 2002 23:17:33 +0300423_iso-8859-1

----- Original Message ----- From: Richardrdsmith@aol.com To: habonet@shamash.org Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2002 12:47 AM Subject: Re: Fools, said I, you do not know, silence like a cancer grows...



In a message dated 7/24/02 4:31:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time, DLerner569@aol.com writes:





Why should Israel be held to a different standard than the US?" Why indeed? [...] 27764 17 29_Re: Workshop this coming year0_13_SC523@aol.com31_Thu, 25 Jul 2002 19:54:48 -0400535_iso-8859-1 I heard that Young Judaea is the ONLY program that has successful registration these days for both their short term and long term programs to Israel. What do they do that other don't???

Aliya

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 27782 66 29_Re: Workshop this coming year0_15_DebALev@aol.com29_Thu, 25 Jul 2002 21:17:18 EDT646_US-ASCII In a message dated 7/25/2002 8:01:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time, SC523@aol.com writes:



> I heard that Young Judaea is the ONLY program that has successful > registration these days for both their short term and long term programs to > Israel. What do they do that other don't??? >

Aliya, I don't know about Year Course. But the summer program is marketed beautifully.........ads in lots of Jewish pubs.......and varied activities, so it sounds like FUN. I remember some, such as tubing down the Jordan River, camping out, spending time with Israeli families, rappelling, etc etc. Nice photos on their brochures. [...] 27849 47 30_Habonim Camping in the Forward0_14_KBob24@aol.com29_Thu, 25 Jul 2002 22:39:03 EDT367_US-ASCII Hi everyone:

On a lighter note........

There is an article in this week's Forward about people's attachment to Jewish summer camp, and our own Lonnie Golden is featured. He managed to get in a mention of Tavor, Mosh and Galil. Way to go Lonnie (did I mention that we went to machaneh together and now our daughters are in the same tzrif?) [...] 27897 47 29_Re: Workshop this coming year0_14_KBob24@aol.com29_Thu, 25 Jul 2002 22:41:08 EDT430_US-ASCII

> I heard that Young Judaea is the ONLY program that has successful > registration these days for both their short term and long term programs to > Israel

Aliya:

Have you heard numbers of actual year course participants for this year? I have heard, percentage wise, they are no better than Habonim. I don't have a direct source, but I would like to see how many kids actually get on the plane. [...] 27945 144 21_The sounds of silence12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Fri, 26 Jul 2002 09:06:05 +0200624_us-ascii

Judy wrote that she >would like to know the reaction in Israel. What I heard while I was there is that he (Sharon) has broad but reluctance support from a embattled population who doesn’t see any real alternatives. I believe that there are two real alternatives, internal and external but both require an imaginative and courageous leadership. The internal alternative is political and the external one is negotiation. Neither have been much in evidence since Rabin’s assassination. No, I’m not nominating him for a prize in either category. As a pragmatist he realized that both belong not so much to [...] 28090 101 34_Re: Habonim Camping in the Forward29_Richard Steacy & Esther Cohen22_richard.steacy@gte.net31_Fri, 26 Jul 2002 08:00:11 -0400613_iso-8859-1 great article! who's lonnie's wife? -esther cohen mosh '70-75 + etc.

----- Original Message ----- From: KBob24@aol.com To: habonet@shamash.org Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2002 10:39 PM Subject: Habonim Camping in the Forward



Hi everyone:

On a lighter note........

There is an article in this week's Forward about people's attachment to Jewish summer camp, and our own Lonnie Golden is featured. He managed to get in a mention of Tavor, Mosh and Galil. Way to go Lonnie (did I mention that we went to machaneh together and now our daughters are in the same tzrif?) [...] 28192 30 34_Re: Habonim Camping in the Forward0_14_Ohanka@aol.com29_Fri, 26 Jul 2002 09:09:58 EDT416_US-ASCII

In a message dated 7/26/02 7:59:42 AM, richard.steacy@gte.net writes:

<< great article! who's lonnie's wife?

-esther cohen

mosh '70-75 +

etc. >>

Lonnie is married to Deborah Meyer, a Mosh girl who may also have been there between 70 and 75 with a sister Rebecca. Their 2 families send 4 girls to Galil and another will come in the next few years. Hank Albert [...] 28223 37 34_Re: Habonim Camping in the Forward13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Fri, 26 Jul 2002 10:15:06 -0400557_us-ascii Both are sisters of David and Danny Meyers--David was MB Yod and 23rd workshop on Maayan Baruch. Danny is the youngest, so I don't have all his stats. Great Habonim family! Judy Gelman

Ohanka@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 7/26/02 7:59:42 AM, richard.steacy@gte.net writes: > > << great article! who's lonnie's wife? > > -esther cohen > > mosh '70-75 + > > etc. >> > > Lonnie is married to Deborah Meyer, a Mosh girl who may also have been there > between 70 and 75 with a sister Rebecca. Their 2 families send 4 girls to > [...] 28261 360 12_Press Survey12_Doug Greener25_ddwgreen@netvision.net.il31_Fri, 26 Jul 2002 15:02:42 +0300766_windows-1255 26 July 2002

"MEDIA RUBBLE IN GAZA"

* * *

Dear Habonet Subscriber,

This week, Israel struck a major blow in the war against terror with the killing of Salah Shehadeh in Gaza, operative head of the U.S.-certified terrorist group, Hamas. (See Shehadeh's terror-resume at http://www.idf.il/newsite/english/salah.stm, and an interview with him at: http://www.memri.org/bin/opener_latest.cgi?ID=SD40302.)

As Palestinian civilians were killed and wounded, newspapers like the Hartford Courant (http://honestreporting.com/a/r/260.asp) and the San Jose Mercury News (http://www.bayarea.com/mld/mercurynews/news/opinion/3724555.htm) outrageously likened the Israeli action to the same type of "terrorism" that Hamas uses. [...] 28622 147 29_RE: Workshop this coming year11_Jamie Levin22_mazkir@habonimdror.org31_Fri, 26 Jul 2002 11:44:29 -0400516_iso-8859-1 The only organized group that is sending anything near full registration on any of its programs is Bnei Akiva. I cannot explain why but neither can they.

Doesn't this make anybody feel funny:

"But the summer program is marketed beautifully.........ads in lots of Jewish pubs.......and varied activities, so it sounds like FUN. I remember some, such as tubing down the Jordan River, camping out, spending time with Israeli families, rappelling, etc etc. Nice photos on their brochures." [...] 28770 69 5_press16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Fri, 26 Jul 2002 12:03:29 -0400603_us-ascii In Habonet 2307, Dave Holtzer wrote that

> The fact of the matter is that Israel has lost the media war. > Dave, I don't know what media you're talking about. In the US, Israel in the 70's (percentage points) over the Palestinians. Consistantly over the past 2 years. If Israel's doing so badly, why have the numbers been so consistantly good? (In political surveys, the 70's are regarded as close to astronomical.) This doesn't say that there aren't ignorant or boneheaded reporters. Or that some media organizations may have editorial slants (most of the big ones today only have [...] 28840 103 29_Re: Workshop this coming year0_14_LHIAM1@aol.com29_Fri, 26 Jul 2002 12:40:34 EDT604_US-ASCII In a message dated 7/26/02 11:48:34 AM Eastern Daylight Time, mazkir@habonimdror.org writes:

> The listserve has been filled about depressing news from Israel for the past > two years; some fear for the existence of Israel while other fear for her > moral soul. The news from Israel depresses me on both a personal and > professional level. I cannot imagine offering Israel programs (or any > Jewish programming for that matter) that ignore the fundamental reality > that is Israel today. Whether left or right I think it is fundamentally > dishonest to go to Israel on a Disneyland [...] 28944 252 29_RE: Workshop this coming year11_Jamie Levin22_mazkir@habonimdror.org31_Fri, 26 Jul 2002 12:49:03 -0400577_iso-8859-1 But only fun?

Aleh V'Hagshem,

Jamie Levin Mazkir Tnua Habonim Dror North America

(p) 212-255-1796 (f) 212-929-3459

NEW EMERGENCY CONTACT 917-856-0507

114 W. 26th St. #1004 NY, NY. 10001

Check out the Virtual Cheder Chinuch, an interactive online database of educational resources. click 'peulot' at www.habonimdror.org

-----Original Message----- From: LHIAM1@aol.com [mailto:LHIAM1@aol.com] Sent: Fri, July 26, 2002 12:41 PM To: mazkir@habonimdror.org; habonet@shamash.org Subject: Re: Workshop this coming year [...] 29197 19 14_Jerusalem site11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org31_Fri, 26 Jul 2002 12:21:35 -0500466_us-ascii Here is the site; Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs Any comments on the site would be appreciated....

http://www.jcpa.org/

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 29217 122 29_Re: Workshop this coming year13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Fri, 26 Jul 2002 13:55:09 -0400 29340 26 29_Re: Workshop this coming year0_15_DebALev@aol.com29_Fri, 26 Jul 2002 14:42:49 EDT359_US-ASCII Amen, Hiam.

You attract more bees with honey........and, when talking about young people (heck, and us alte kockers too), there are good and positive things about Israel as well as the scary, awful things.

Focusing entirely on the negative is not going to attract anybody, and it's likely to even discourage the already committed. [...] 29367 165 20_Re: The Gaza Bombing5_YIGAL18_ysela@inter.net.il31_Fri, 26 Jul 2002 22:53:17 +0200612_windows-1255 The results of the Israeli attack in Gaza earlier this week were unfortunate and very upsetting. The killing of innocent citizens has never been the aim of the Israeli government and army since the Intafada started. In fact, as Minister of Defence Ben Eliezer revealed yesterday in the Central Committee of the Labor party , the attack on Shahade came after 7 previous refusals on his part. Seven times previously an assassination attempt had been prepared by the army but had not received permission because of Intelligence Information saying that at the time of the attack he was expected to [...] 29533 36 20_Re: The Gaza Bombing0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com29_Fri, 26 Jul 2002 16:11:56 EDT575_US-ASCII I think the issue of the Gaza bombing that got me so upset was not the bombing itself but Sharon's announcement that it was a great success. Now there is an investigation and all the government officials are claiming that it was a mistake, the intelligence said this or that. Usually people's first reactions are the most honest ones and Sharon's expression of success was made after the results were known. Maybe it was a success, maybe this guy deserved to die and the civilian casualties were the unfortunate cost of war, but you can't claim that you go out [...] 29570 85 20_RE: The Gaza Bombing11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Fri, 26 Jul 2002 13:24:03 -0700684_us-ascii sure you can -----Original Message----- From: owner-habonet@shamash.org [mailto:owner-habonet@shamash.org]On Behalf Of Richardrdsmith@aol.com Sent: Friday, July 26, 2002 1:12 PM To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: Re: The Gaza Bombing



I think the issue of the Gaza bombing that got me so upset was not the bombing itself but Sharon's announcement that it was a great success. Now there is an investigation and all the government officials are claiming that it was a mistake, the intelligence said this or that. Usually people's first reactions are the most honest ones and Sharon's expression of success was made after the results were known. Maybe it was a [...] 29656 118 38_re Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs13_moshe sheskin24_moshes7@netvision.net.il55_Fri, 26 Jul 2002 16:52:27 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time)344_iso-8859-1 Roz Barland, shalom

Many thanks for the URL to the Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs. Although I have just scanned the site and have not had the time to read most of the articles, I will be sending many of them to a long list. It is one of the best ways that we have to reach an audience who are interested and caring. [...] 29775 52 34_Fw: Habonim Camping in the Forward29_Richard Steacy & Esther Cohen22_richard.steacy@gte.net31_Fri, 26 Jul 2002 21:58:05 -0400608_iso-8859-1 thanks, all! i knew i was supposed to know! -esther ----- Original Message ----- From: "Judith Gelman" To: Sent: Friday, July 26, 2002 10:15 AM Subject: Re: Habonim Camping in the Forward



> Both are sisters of David and Danny Meyers--David was MB Yod and 23rd workshop > on Maayan Baruch. Danny is the youngest, so I don't have all his stats. Great > Habonim family! > Judy Gelman > > Ohanka@aol.com wrote: > > > In a message dated 7/26/02 7:59:42 AM, richard.steacy@gte.net writes: > > > > << great article! who's lonnie's wife? > > > [...] 29828 47 19_Re: John Maniscalco0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com29_Sat, 27 Jul 2002 01:29:31 EDT244_US-ASCII In a message dated 7/25/02 11:42:33 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com writes:



> It would be good for a productive > public debate. > > Steve >

So you can call the people you disagree with names? 29876 50 3_lza4_Stan17_stan@inter.net.il31_Sat, 27 Jul 2002 10:10:43 +0200271_iso-8859-1 {I am angry at L Z A for publicly condeming Israel for its overkill on the west bank. It was a mistake that Israel admits. It should not have happened and should be condemed WITHIN LZA. bUT lza CONDEMED IT PUBLICLY SO I AM PUBLICLY CONDEMING LZA FOR ITS ACTION 29927 187 37_The Gaza Bombing and Double Standards12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Sat, 27 Jul 2002 17:54:16 +0200583_us-ascii

Yigal, I disagree strongly with at least four of the points you raised in Habonet 2308. ONE > If President Bush or Prime Minister Blair or President Putin knew of a proposed attack on innocent citizens of theirs,< Are we talking about the butcher of the Chechnyans and the certified liar re: the fate of the sailors of the sunken Russian submarine Kursk? Of the American president who went AWOL for an entire day after the attacks of September 11? (Let Blair enjoy the benefit of the doubt.) As you know the Talmud disqualifies the evidence of fools and liars. [...] 30115 50 17_BElieve It Or NOt0_13_SC523@aol.com29_Sun, 28 Jul 2002 02:32:45 EDT437_US-ASCII Dear Chevreh,

For those of you who remember the Smothers Brothers' song in the 60s "I Fell Into a Vat of Chocolate" I'm sure you will be quite surprised by the following email from Joel Grishaver of Los Angeles -

Aliya

Man dies in vat of chocolate

July 24, 2002 | HATFIELD, Pa. (AP) -- A candy factory worker died after being submerged in a 1,200-gallon vat of liquefied chocolate, police said. [...] 30166 1596 13_Kibbutz Gezer0_13_SC523@aol.com29_Sun, 28 Jul 2002 03:07:06 EDT442_US-ASCII This extremely detailed article about Kibbutz Gezer just reached me as an email "hand-me-down" and I thought members of the list would wish to read it. Although I have certainly kept up on the recent conversions of many of our kibbutzim such as Gesher Haziv (as a G.H. chaver said to me, "Don't feel sad for us - just think of us as 'kfar katan l'yad Nahariya'"), I still found this article extremely depressing, albeit cogent. [...] 31763 50 23_Kumsitz in Yerushalayim0_13_SC523@aol.com29_Sun, 28 Jul 2002 03:16:31 EDT389_US-ASCII For all those planning to attend the kumsitz in Yerushalayim in Orah Blaustein Maggen's gan, our hostess requests:

Please bring blankets, sleeping bags for sitting on, or portable chairs, and please remember to bring instruments, shironim, desserts, drinks, and munchies.

Once again, the date is Motsei Shabbat, 24 August, at 7 PM, and here are the directions: [...] 31814 35 11_Adva Center11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org31_Sun, 28 Jul 2002 07:47:40 -0500400_us-ascii Another interesting site...

http://www.adva.org/indexe.html

The Adva Center conducts policy analysis, advocacy work, and public outreach to inform policy makers and the general public in Israel and abroad about equity and social justice issues in Israeli society. Adva analyzes equality and inequality in Israel in a way that integrates gender, ethnicity and nationality. [...] 31850 46 11_Re: shehada7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Thu, 25 Jul 2002 23:53:00 +0300369_iso-8859-1 noam, I would do so but have stopped for fear of unreasonable attack. Instead of objectively evaluating what is written and deciding for oneself if the information is trustworthy, there are people on the list who condemn the source. (truthfully, I can not remember who or pinpoint anyone--I have short memories for such things) b'virkat chaverim, pearl [...] 31897 28 31_Check out http://adoptajew.com/0_15_Miceng4@aol.com29_Sun, 28 Jul 2002 09:48:40 EDT78_US-ASCII Click here: http://adoptajew.com/ 31926 69 35_Re: Check out http://adoptajew.com/12_Karen Fisher23_pkfisher19@peoplepc.com31_Sun, 28 Jul 2002 12:14:12 -0400236_iso-8859-1 Thank you so much. Karen ----- Original Message ----- From: Miceng4@aol.com To: habonet@shamash.org Sent: Sunday, July 28, 2002 9:48 AM Subject: Check out http://adoptajew.com/



Click here: http://adoptajew.com/ 31996 57 21_more pogroms to come?11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Mon, 29 Jul 2002 11:56:01 -0400787_us-ascii >From an article in Monday's HaAretz by Amos Harel.

You can find the full article at www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=191776&contrassID=2&subContrassID=1&sbSubContrassID=0

+++ ... According to settlers, they were only protecting themselves against rock-throwing by Palestinians, who were placed under curfew by the authorities before the funeral to prevent friction. Eyewitnesses, including foreign press photographers on the scene, reported that the incitement during the funeral march had quickly turned into rock-throwing and a rampage through the open market, where settlers overturned stalls and burned a house. In the chaos, extensive shooting took place, with Israel Defense Forces troops, deployed in large numbers, firing into the [...] 32054 80 25_RE: more pogroms to come?11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Mon, 29 Jul 2002 11:07:56 -0700845_US-ASCII You see? You see?

-----Original Message----- From: owner-habonet@shamash.org [mailto:owner-habonet@shamash.org]On Behalf Of Noam Stopak Sent: Monday, July 29, 2002 8:56 AM To: Habonim Dror Alumni Virtual Machaneh Subject: more pogroms to come?



>From an article in Monday's HaAretz by Amos Harel.

You can find the full article at www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=191776&contrassID=2&subC ontrassID=1&sbSubContrassID=0

+++ ... According to settlers, they were only protecting themselves against rock-throwing by Palestinians, who were placed under curfew by the authorities before the funeral to prevent friction. Eyewitnesses, including foreign press photographers on the scene, reported that the incitement during the funeral march had quickly turned into rock-throwing and a [...] 32135 156 19_RE: John Maniscalco11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Mon, 29 Jul 2002 11:47:06 -0700581_US-ASCII Richard

You may have, through heightened sensitivity, misunderstood my intentions. I have never sought a forum in which to call people names. My intention, as it has been for most of my life, however, is to attack ideas that are lame, unfounded, and/or dangerous to humanity in general, or to the Jewish people in particular. You go ahead and post or publicise a stupid or unsupportable idea, I will try to knock it down. I am not attacking the messenger, as you may have erroneously perceived. I will attack the message, however, as long as I am able to draw [...] 32292 50 25_Re: more pogroms to come?11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Mon, 29 Jul 2002 14:52:53 -0400408_us-ascii Steve Klein wrote:

> You see? You see?

Thanks for "posting your thoughts" and "contribut[ing] to a productive public debate.". Your constructive remarks continue to stimulate a positive atmosphere of honest intellectual exchange on this list.

Do I understand from your remarks that you feel it is ok to go on a rampage burning cars and houses and stabbing 8 year old kids? [...] 32343 77 23_looking for information14_Jessica Silver26_foundation@habonimdror.org31_Mon, 29 Jul 2002 18:14:14 -0400448_iso-8859-1 Hi Habonetters,

A woman named Loren Hoffman, who is a relative of Miriam (Falk) Biderman's is trying to find information about Miriam's surviving family- a daughter named Etta Batya Biderman. Miriam, who died in 1949 on Kfar Blum, was very active in Habonim in the 1940's as many of you know. Miriam's daughter would be a relation of Loren's, and she is looking for any information that about her whereabouts, her life, etc. [...] 32421 243 30_Fwd: [SC1] The Lightning Flash0_13_SC523@aol.com29_Tue, 30 Jul 2002 01:17:03 EDT423_US-ASCII Dear Chevreh,

This email from Arthur Waskow and The Shalom Center is so cogently written that I thought to share it with the list although the same sentiments have been expressed by other writers. For those of you who don't know him, Arthur is not only one of the founders of the Havurah Movement and the founder of The Shalom Center, but he was a Habo boy from Cottage Avenue in Baltimore in the 60s. [...] 32665 145 30_Fwd: [SC1] The Lightning Flash21_Tsippi (Frances) Rudy16_tsippi@attbi.com31_Tue, 30 Jul 2002 02:58:47 -0700566_us-ascii Chevre,

Aliyah forwarded the following:

>We now know that last Monday, intense negotiations among various Palestinian >militias -- including some like Tanzim that had resorted to terrorist mass >murders -- had resulted in an agreement to halt all attacks against >Israeli civilians. > >We know that Hamas' top leader had publicly moved in this direction as >well. We have just learned (article in the Saturday Philadelphia >Inquirer) that the US had persuaded Saudi Arabia to cut off all money to >Hamas unless it agreed to this as well. [...] 32811 1246 167_AN AMERICAN PORTRAIT / Sept. 11 - July 29 / Internal conflict for progressive American Jews / Worries about anti-Semitism are resulting in torn feelings about politics16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Tue, 30 Jul 2002 09:01:03 -0400100_us-ascii

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2002/07/29/MN.DTL 34058 127 45_Minister's aide calls Hebron riots a 'pogrom'11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Tue, 30 Jul 2002 11:26:22 -0400296_us-ascii I'm just a disturbed loon, so don't take it from me - when an aid to Uzi Landau calls it a pogrom, I think it is safe to say that this is not merely a "you see!" item but rather a blight which must be eradicated.

Noam

+++ Minister's aide calls Hebron riots a 'pogrom' [...] 34186 94 61_Fear and violence in Hebron - HaAretz Editorial July 30, 200211_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Tue, 30 Jul 2002 12:20:06 -0400653_us-ascii Some very salient points here.

+++

Fear and violence in Hebron

Four Israelis were murdered by Palestinian terrorists last Friday in the Hebron area, including three members of a single family. During the Sunday funeral of one of the victims, First Sergeant Elazar Leibovitz, Israelis, including Hebron settlers and their guests, ran riot, shooting, stabbing, stoning and destroying property. They killed a 14-year-old Palestinian girl, Nibin Jamjum, and wounded dozens, including Israeli police officers. Suspects were arrested but released by the court, which said they did not need to be held for the investigation. [...] 34281 19 29_Re: [SC1] The Lightning Flash0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Tue, 30 Jul 2002 12:48:14 EDT511_US-ASCII It was because - under the facts as stated - it was the last opportunity to kill the Mamzer before either a "cease fire" or a big bomb. Either way, Good Riddance, I say. Dennis

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 34301 20 65_Re: Fear and violence in Hebron - HaAretz Editorial July 30, 20020_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Tue, 30 Jul 2002 12:53:00 EDT626_US-ASCII The same standards of Israeli justice should apply to all those arrested. that is the only consistent response to the calls by Israel to arrest terrorists. As for whether this incident/program/riot or whatever stands for anything greater than its individual facts, is not clear to me. Dennis

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 34322 30 65_Re: Fear and violence in Hebron - HaAretz Editorial July 30, 20020_13_JLCAA@aol.com29_Tue, 30 Jul 2002 14:07:15 EDT610_US-ASCII In a message dated 7/30/02 12:53:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time, DLerner569@aol.com writes:

<< As for whether this incident/program/riot or whatever stands for anything greater than its individual facts, is not clear to me. >>

Horse hockey! Come on Dennis. If you've followed the history of the Hebron settlers for any length of time you know this is typical behavior. You are correct that the law must be applied to everyone equally. Extremists exist on both sides of the issue and we've let Jewish extremists act out for far too long ... and get away with murder. Its time for these [...] 34353 42 65_Re: Fear and violence in Hebron - HaAretz Editorial July 30, 200211_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Tue, 30 Jul 2002 14:15:52 -0400584_us-ascii JLCAA@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 7/30/02 12:53:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > DLerner569@aol.com writes: > > << As for whether this incident/program/riot or whatever stands for > anything greater than its individual facts, is not clear to me. >> > > Horse hockey! > Come on Dennis. If you've followed the history of the Hebron settlers for > any length of time you know this is typical behavior. > You are correct that the law must be applied to everyone equally. Extremists > exist on both sides of the issue and we've let Jewish extremists act out for [...] 34396 29 29_Re: [SC1] The Lightning Flash11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Tue, 30 Jul 2002 14:17:38 -0400378_us-ascii DLerner569@aol.com wrote:

> It was because - under the facts as stated - it was the last opportunity to > kill the Mamzer before either a "cease fire" or a big bomb. Either way, Good > Riddance, I say. > Dennis

Yes, yes, the ends justify the means. Absolutely - NOT!

Not sure I understand your point about the "cease fire". Can you elaborate? [...] 34426 25 29_Re: [SC1] The Lightning Flash12_David Fleiss20_dfleiss@pipeline.com31_Tue, 30 Jul 2002 14:36:40 -0400469_- Dennis wrote:

>>> It was because - under the facts as stated - it was the last opportunity to kill the Mamzer before either a "cease fire" or a big bomb. Either way, Good Riddance, I say. <<<

Dennis,

I'm not sure I understand your message -- are you saying that Israel was right to assassinate Shehadeh on the eve of a cease-fire because a few days later such an assassination would violate the terms of the cease-fire? [...] 34452 15 12_"occupation"11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Tue, 30 Jul 2002 11:55:26 -0700337_iso-8859-1

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 34468 41 65_Re: Fear and violence in Hebron - HaAretz Editorial July 30, 20020_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com29_Tue, 30 Jul 2002 15:52:21 EDT194_US-ASCII In a message dated 7/30/02 2:08:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, JLCAA@aol.com writes:



> Its time for these thugs to go to > jail.

Perhaps a one ton missile is needed? 34510 674 26_Forward from Lenny Zurakov15_Leo Diesendruck18_leodie@isdn.net.il31_Wed, 31 Jul 2002 12:24:59 +0200376_us-ascii This item was forwarded to me by Lenny Zurakov (ex Chicago Habonim).





This was sent to me by a friend. I can't account for it's accurateness but it wouldn't surprise me, considering other stories we hear. I don't know of anyone who saw anything like this in the local press. BK ============================================================= [...] 35185 185 20_Kumsitz in Jerusalem15_Leo Diesendruck18_leodie@isdn.net.il31_Wed, 31 Jul 2002 12:42:21 +0200530_us-ascii I have been asked by Aliya to notify members of my "Habonim in Israel" list about the Kumsitz in Jerusalem in August. I sent out emails to those who have email addresses, first updating with the HABONET list. Quite a number of emails from my database bounced - partly for technical reasons and partly because the email address was no longer correct. (For example, gezernet no longer exists). I am trying to correct these addresses, but, unless the person is registered in ICQ, for instance, this is difficult to do. [...] 35371 20 30_Re: Forward from Lenny Zurakov11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Wed, 31 Jul 2002 08:23:03 -0400434_us-ascii

The behavior described on both sides is mind boggling. Thanks for sharing this.

Noam

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 35392 55 10_ceasefire?16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Wed, 31 Jul 2002 08:56:01 -0400632_us-ascii Merely because Arthur Waskow avers that the Tanzim were getting ready to offer a cease fire doesn't mean that there was one. Arthur's argument runs something like this: Assassinating Shehadeh was inappropriate because 1) the Tanzim were in the process of putting together an agreement w/other terrorist groups to stop the suicide murder campaign (presumably because of the damage done by Israeli military responses) and 2) that the Saudis had, in any event, decided to stop bankrolling Hamas. The argument concludes 3) that the Israelis knew all of this before the Shehadeh operation and that by going through with it [...] 35448 31 65_Re: Fear and violence in Hebron - HaAretz Editorial July 30, 20020_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Wed, 31 Jul 2002 12:11:04 EDT662_US-ASCII Dear JLCAA,

There are two kinds of incidents, those spontaneously erupting from a specific circumstance, and those organized and planned as part of a strategic program.

On the one side we have various terrorist organizations taking credit for incidents, indicating to me that they were planned, paid for and executed as part of a larger campaign or program -- however opportunistic the circumstances around the incident, i.e., reprisal, revenge, response incidents. On the other I am not aware of para-military, or citizen organizations within any party or on either side of the greenline that plan, finance, or strategize attacks as [...] 35480 51 29_Re: [SC1] The Lightning Flash0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Wed, 31 Jul 2002 12:30:27 EDT576_US-ASCII Dear Noam, I'll try. On the one hand there sits this bastard, repeatedly thwarting our efforts at a clean hit. Intel says he's planning a big boom. According to the reports posted here, he's also being pressured to declare a cease fire on some terms -- probably unacceptable to us, but no matter. Does that mean the big boom plans evaporate? Maybe, maybe not. Maybe the cease fire proposal is just real enough to provide cover for the further planning of the big boom. Maybe we've misjudged these gentlemen all along, and they are ready to take a co-step toward [...] 35532 85 29_Re: [SC1] The Lightning Flash0_14_LHIAM1@aol.com29_Wed, 31 Jul 2002 12:48:58 EDT497_US-ASCII In a message dated 7/31/02 12:33:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time, DLerner569@aol.com writes:

> In a war the soldiers job is to kill the enemy in as large > numbers as possible, whenever and wherever possible, and to do it as > quickly > as possible with the least possible damage to your own forces. > > Dennis- > In a war the soldiers job is to follow orders -- to the very limits of his > moral compass. It is NOT his job to go out and kill the dehumanized enemy > willy nilly. [...] 35618 93 29_Re: [SC1] The Lightning Flash11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Wed, 31 Jul 2002 12:51:12 -0400601_us-ascii Dear Dennis,

Thank you. A valiant attempt, and it certainly clarifies a few points, but I still don't understand the connection between the "cease fire" and the hit on the mamzer. Not all that important I suppose.

A few points below.

DLerner569@aol.com wrote:

> Dear Noam, > I'll try. On the one hand there sits this bastard, repeatedly thwarting our > efforts at a clean hit. Intel says he's planning a big boom. According to > the reports posted here, he's also being pressured to declare a cease fire on > some terms -- probably unacceptable to us, but no [...] 35712 20 65_Re: Fear and violence in Hebron - HaAretz Editorial July 30, 20020_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Wed, 31 Jul 2002 13:04:06 EDT526_US-ASCII Richard, Do you doubt that if the other side had it it would use it? Or were you suggesting that Israel short circuit its legal system and bomb it own, if not its most popular, people. Dennis

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 35733 26 29_Re: [SC1] The Lightning Flash0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Wed, 31 Jul 2002 13:15:48 EDT432_US-ASCII LHIAM1, I was not referring to individual soldiers, but their leaders. Note please that on the Palestinian side, these leaders are or not part of any disciplined structure or answerable to any civilian structure.

You may not agree with the structure or leadership on the Israeli side - that needless to say is your prerogative -- but there is one. Act outside the structure and you are subject to consequences. [...] 35760 35 65_Re: Fear and violence in Hebron - HaAretz Editorial July 30, 200211_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Wed, 31 Jul 2002 13:18:47 -0400360_us-ascii Dennis,

DLerner569@aol.com wrote:

> Richard, > Do you doubt that if the other side had it it would use it?

Are you suggesting we should use the behavior of "the other side" as our guide?

> Or were you > suggesting that Israel short circuit its legal system and bomb it own, if not > its most popular, people. > Dennis [...] 35796 56 29_Re: [SC1] The Lightning Flash0_14_LHIAM1@aol.com29_Wed, 31 Jul 2002 13:25:54 EDT541_US-ASCII You do miss the point You implicitly miss the point The point is NOT to simply kill as many as possible as quickly as possible. That is not war it is slaughter. The point is to win the war. The ONLY acceptable long term reason for war is eliminate it. The only way that soldiers can successfully leave their families to go off to war is if they believe that the reason they are doing so is not to kill someone else's children (and all soldiers are someone's child) but to protect their own loved ones. The only real protection [...] 35853 90 29_Re: [SC1] The Lightning Flash0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Wed, 31 Jul 2002 13:44:22 EDT600_US-ASCII In a message dated 7/31/2002 12:52:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time, stopak@orionsci.com writes:



> . What I am saying is that we must take care to not become that which we > rightly despise >

I don't intend sarcasm, but doesn't it seem to you that the world out there, or at least a very vocal part of it miss no opportunity to construe every act of ours no matter how benevolent, beneficent, courageous, humanitarian, selfless, or Christlike as a cynical infliction of the Holocaust upon these noble oppressed people, yearning to be free. I find it hard to imagine us [...] 35944 25 65_Re: Fear and violence in Hebron - HaAretz Editorial July 30, 20020_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Wed, 31 Jul 2002 13:52:57 EDT577_US-ASCII I thought Richard's was a dumb comment and responded in kind. I'm content to stop it here. I am not very offended by Israel's bombing of a leading terrorist. I leave the choice of weapons to those who know something about the target. I do not recommend or condone Israel's bombing of its citizens of any stripe. If equal justice means that the SOB could have been arrested and tried in an Israeli court without an unreasonable risk to Israeli soldiers in arresting him and risk or reprisals, kidnappings, etc. then I agree he should have been arrested and tried. [...] 35970 33 23_Re: one less reason ...11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Wed, 31 Jul 2002 14:02:28 -0400365_us-ascii DLerner569@aol.com wrote:

> I thought Richard's was a dumb comment and responded in kind. I'm content to > stop it here.

Don't you think it's odd when people want to have the last word and then say the discussion should stop there? :-)

> ...I don't miss > him, and there is one less reason not to send kids on Workshop to Israel. [...] 36004 78 29_Re: [SC1] The Lightning Flash11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Wed, 31 Jul 2002 14:08:44 -0400592_us-ascii DLerner569@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 7/31/2002 12:52:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time, stopak@orionsci.com writes: > >> . What I am saying is that we must take care to not become that which we >> rightly despise > > I don't intend sarcasm, but doesn't it seem to you that the world out there, or at least a very vocal part of it miss no opportunity to construe every act of ours no matter how benevolent, beneficent, courageous, humanitarian, selfless, or Christlike as > a cynical infliction of the Holocaust upon these noble oppressed people, yearning to be free. [...] 36083 84 29_Re: [SC1] The Lightning Flash0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Wed, 31 Jul 2002 14:37:18 EDT528_US-ASCII Hiam, Thanks for the ID to go with the postings.

I would like to be persuaded by your message, but I am not. Please try again, as will I.

Winning a war is accomplished by defeating the army on the other side. Killing such a large number of those on the other side that the other side finds the losses to be unacceptable, or unsustainable is the primary way in which wars are waged and won. How often have we heard the cries of pain about the size of our losses to the other side. Do you deny that it [...] 36168 98 65_Re: Fear and violence in Hebron - HaAretz Editorial July 30, 20020_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com29_Wed, 31 Jul 2002 14:39:20 EDT428_US-ASCII In a message dated 7/31/02 1:53:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time, DLerner569@aol.com writes:



> I thought Richard's was a dumb comment and responded in kind. I'm content > to > stop it here.

Well, I'm dumb and am not content to leave it there.

I am not very offended by Israel's bombing of a leading > terrorist. I leave the choice of weapons to those who know something about > the target. [...] 36267 25 23_Re: one less reason ...0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Wed, 31 Jul 2002 14:44:25 EDT523_US-ASCII Dear Noam,

Yes, I think the other side's behavior should be a guide to one's own. We should not use it to justify our own, or strive to match it or stay ahead of it in destructiveness or cruelty or whatever, but insults are unlikely to be an effective response to missiles. The otherside's behavior tells us much about their intent and their strategy and in this way can guide us in how to respond. I am not suggesting, " a bomb for a bomb, a child for a child" or anything as biblical as that. Dennis [...] 36293 58 29_Re: [SC1] The Lightning Flash0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Wed, 31 Jul 2002 14:54:35 EDT606_US-ASCII In a message dated 7/31/2002 2:10:01 PM Eastern Daylight Time, stopak@orionsci.com writes:



> I don't buy this argument. Sometimes they hate us because of > certain bad actors or mistakes. Often they hate us because we > are different. Other groups experience this as well. > >

I believe in sociological terms this is called blaming the victim, and is generally discredited. When a Jew shoots someone, they are not dead because a Jew shot them, they are dead because a bullet from a gun passed through some vital organ(s) or caused a major loss of blood. The bullet does [...] 36352 114 26_Fwd: The Ethics of Revenge12_David Fleiss20_dfleiss@pipeline.com31_Wed, 31 Jul 2002 15:00:41 -0400394_- I don't agree with everything in the following speech, but I think there's plenty of food for thought in it.

David

* * * * * * * * *

The Ethics of Revenge -- by a father who lost his son to terror

A speech made by Yitzhak Frankenthal, Chairman of the Families Forum, at a rally in Jerusalem on Saturday, July 27, 2002, outside the Prime Minister’s residence. [...] 36467 46 65_Re: Fear and violence in Hebron - HaAretz Editorial July 30, 20020_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Wed, 31 Jul 2002 15:10:55 EDT418_US-ASCII Hi Richard, We seem to disagree, but I'm not clear about what. Does your new enlarged typeface mean you are shouting? What about the blue color - is that me or you?

Anyway, you seem to be angry with the political and military aparatchik involved in this incident, particularly with the Prime Minister referring to it as a success, even though a number of civilians including children were killed. [...] 36514 49 65_Re: Fear and violence in Hebron - HaAretz Editorial July 30, 20020_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com29_Wed, 31 Jul 2002 15:34:50 EDT471_US-ASCII In a message dated 7/31/02 3:11:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time, DLerner569@aol.com writes:



> Hi Richard, > We seem to disagree, but I'm not clear about what. Does your new enlarged > typeface mean you are shouting? What about the blue color - is that me or > you? >

Actually that was not what the post looked like when I sent it, so somewhere in cyberspace, they fiddled with it. It did make it difficult to read, for which I apologize to all. 36564 157 48_1948 historical document about Begin and fascism13_Yuval Warshai16_warshais@tir.com31_Wed, 31 Jul 2002 17:10:51 -0400567_iso-8859-1 I don't know it this is a legitimate and true, or a spurious and doctored historical source document. This needs to be checked further. The acts attributed to the perpetrators of the Deir Yassin attack seem to be a little exaggerated to me, off the top of my head. The internet source I received it through is not above suspicion. (Is there such a thing as an internet source that is above suspicion?) The document's sources given in the "Source notes" section at the bottom of this message give me some reason to pause. Of the 28 signatories, I have [...] 36722 53 15_Today's tragedy13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Wed, 31 Jul 2002 18:58:59 -0400405_us-ascii Dear Dennis,

I find it most irony to read your statement that the bombing of Shehada will make it easier for Habonim members to go on workshop on a day when students, particular foreign students, were targeted by Hamas in the Hebrew University cafeteria. I can't think of incident since the Dolpinarium and Sbarro bombings more likely to make parents want to keep their kids at home. [...] 36776 20 19_Re: Today's tragedy0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Wed, 31 Jul 2002 23:51:19 EDT518_US-ASCII Judy, I'm listening to Charlie Rose and his guest talk about the fact that Lincoln was prepared to sacrifice 600,000 American lives to preserve the country. It makes one think. Dennis

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------=