1 SHAMASH.ORG /usr/www/wwwhc/listserv/archives/habonet June 2002 2 50 9_scatology12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Sat, 01 Jun 2002 10:24:14 +0200673_iso-8859-1 Haverot/im So many no-no's for Habonet. No virus panic notices, no nasty notices about Arafat's pics at the H. office so here's my suggestion NO to

What about a contest about places to put pictures of Arafat. Just to kick things off with the proper tone, I suggest single ply toilet paper. Dennis Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 17:04:29 -0400 From: David Fleiss Subject: Re: Pictures of Arafat? To: habonet@shamash.org Message-id: Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I guess great minds think alike, because I was thinking that his picture belonged in a men's urinal. David [...] 53 28 13_Re: scatology11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Sat, 01 Jun 2002 10:01:29 -0400459_us-ascii Aw shucks, and here I was going to join you in thanking Dennis for elevating the conversation :-)

Amnon Hadary wrote:

> Haverot/im > So many no-no's for Habonet. No virus panic notices, no nasty notices > about Arafat's pics at the H. office so here's my suggestion NO to > > What about a contest about places to put pictures of Arafat. > Just to kick things off with the proper tone, I suggest single ply toilet > paper. > Dennis [...] 82 18 13_Re: Scatology0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com28_Sat, 1 Jun 2002 11:30:12 EDT493_US-ASCII Hey Amnon--Is the root of "scatology" perhaps "scat"- or "get outta here"? (Maybe that is the purpose for Dennis' and Steve's suggestions re Arafat).. :)-...s

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 101 103 23_Re: Ishmael a.k.a. Esau0_18_DLerner569@aol.com28_Sat, 1 Jun 2002 14:00:23 EDT556_US-ASCII Amnon, May I have the next dense. My Hebrew which never good leaves me wondering in places where I need clarity. (hutz le-aretz)? Outside Israel? (hagshamah atzmit)? a day for listening (hearing) onesself?

I have read the chaps. 31 (leaving Laban) and 32. My first thought is that here are the first generations of monotheists shown with their warts and frailties. Each exquisitly human, marked by slyness and cleverness in their own interest, but also marked with a desire for peace even to their own superficial (initial) detriment. [...] 205 63 16_Re: yossi beilin7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Sun, 02 Jun 2002 01:24:53 +0300542_iso-8859-1 there are a lot of people today in Israel who have no use for yossi beilin. Who is he representing that he is sitting and planning another Oslo for us? He is one of the "architects" of this failed plan that has caused us so much damage. He is not a member of the Israeli government. Whom exactly does he represent? Yossi Beilin is on the payrole of the European Union. High salary. He represents them, not Israel. He admits to being employed by the European Union. One does not have to wonder why they took him on. pearl p.s. [...] 269 45 37_Na'aleh Positions Open - Please Help!0_13_SC523@aol.com28_Sun, 2 Jun 2002 03:27:53 EDT387_US-ASCII Dear Chevreh,

There are still several Na'aleh positions open for this summer -- the salaries are quite decent, as Habonim salaries go (and that is still quite relative, when considering regular summer job salaries in the larger community). Would you please contact friends, friends' children, friends' parents, and friends of friends for these positions a.s.a.p.??? [...] 315 575 52_FW: What Congress Does Not Know About Enron and 9/1111_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com30_Sun, 2 Jun 2002 06:41:37 -0700405_iso-8859-1

-----Original Message----- From: Marcia Plager [mailto:mplager@socal.rr.com] Sent: Saturday, June 01, 2002 11:06 PM To: Steve Klein Subject: Fw: What Congress Does Not Know About Enron and 9/11





----- Original Message ----- From: Marcia Plager To: Marcia Plager Sent: Saturday, June 01, 2002 10:50 PM Subject: What Congress Does Not Know About Enron and 9/11 [...] 891 48 56_Re: FW: What Congress Does Not Know About Enron and 9/110_18_DLerner569@aol.com28_Sun, 2 Jun 2002 12:48:24 EDT639_US-ASCII Steve, thanks for the posting.

I am no Loftus, but I am not surprised at the extensive money connections working behind the scenes that facilitated the attack of 9/11.

Having observed how the consequences of 9/11 fit the domestic and foreign policy objectives of GWB, and gave him greater control not only of the government, but of society, including our inalienable rights; and having noted that GWB's political position and re-electability were greatly enhanced by the fact of being a war time president, even (perhaps especially) where the enemy is whoever the government says it is this month, I concluded, [...] 940 63 23_RE: Pictures of Arafat?11_Jamie Levin22_mazkir@habonimdror.org30_Sun, 2 Jun 2002 17:04:47 -0400344_iso-8859-1 These rumours are a bit offensive aren't they? Sounds like an attempt to delegitimize the opinions of the leadership of HDNA. I won't even dignify this rumour with a response to its legitimacy. If you care to find out the truth you can email me personally; if you care to spread lashon horah follow the lead of the email below. [...] 1004 128 11_Monthly FAQ12_Jennifer Kay19_kay@elvis.rowan.edu31_Mon, 03 Jun 2002 02:32:02 -0400415_- Actually-from:brianscoop@aol.com

Hi Chevre,

Here is a reminder of the "essential" commands that you can use to configure your subscription to Habonet. I will post this monthly from now on. Please note -- The address for commands is: listproc@shamash.org whereas the address for posts to the list is: habonet@shamash.org If you need any help with any of it, send me an email: brianscoop@aol.com [...] 1133 147 23_Punishing the messenger9_R. Shultz18_lzac@securenet.net30_Mon, 3 Jun 2002 09:28:02 -0400412_iso-8859-1 Web sites potent weapon in shaping Middle East story Activists spotlight media they say give wrong view

By Rita Ciolli. Special to the Tribune. Rita Ciolli is a staff writer for Newsday, a Tribune newspaper. Published June 3, 2002

The media are caught in the crossfire over their Mideast coverage in a way that makes the days of the thoughtful letter or the angry call seem quaint. [...] 1281 140 35_Yossi Beilin and the Bicycle Riders12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Mon, 03 Jun 2002 18:34:13 +0200649_us-ascii

Haverim/ot A bearded Jew was once surrounded by anti-Semitic thugs who threatened to beat him up unless he admitted that the Jews were responsible for unemployment, prostitution, and bank failures. To save his skin he confessed reciting the entire indictment saying the Jews and the bicycle riders were to blame for unemployment, prostitution, and bank failures. Smiling at his admission of shame one of the bullies asked "ok, but why the bicycle riders" to which the Jew replied "why the Jews." Sometimes useful in deflecting outrageous accusations. Sometimes employed in making them Someone who admitted to having a sense of [...] 1422 50 41_Re: Na'aleh Positions Open - Please Help!0_23_stuhlman@mindspring.com31_Mon, 03 Jun 2002 11:40:47 -0400566_- Um... sorry I'm not up on camp geography, but where is Na'aleh? I want to know which people to tell.

Thanks Sam

On Sun, 2 Jun 2002 03:27:53 EDT SC523@aol.com wrote:

Dear Chevreh,

There are still several Na'aleh positions open for this summer -- the salaries are quite decent, as Habonim salaries go (and that is still quite relative, when considering regular summer job salaries in the larger community). Would you please contact friends, friends' children, friends' parents, and friends of friends for these positions a.s.a.p.??? [...] 1473 23 27_RE: Punishing the messenger12_Fine, Sharon14_FineS@MLHS.ORG30_Mon, 3 Jun 2002 11:54:09 -0400340_iso-8859-1 If the messenger distorts the story, they deserve to be punished. Most of the complaints, at least from Honest Reporting, regard warped or completely inaccurate presentations. I don't think it's asking too much to expect a news purveyor to portray events accurately and either without bias, or with balanced quotes. -Sharon [...] 1497 41 39_RE: Yossi Beilin and the Bicycle Riders12_Fine, Sharon14_FineS@MLHS.ORG30_Mon, 3 Jun 2002 12:04:44 -0400555_- Maybe I'm missing something here, but I don't see how refering to someone you and I approve of as a criminal is an incitement to murder. As you described the bumper-sticker, I assumed the dripping blood was meant to call to mind all the people who have been killed in the intifada, the implication being that the quest for peace somehow caused the intifada or something along those lines. Not a concept I agree with, but hardly a call for murder. I think there's been more than enough of this one asking that one to leave habonet. I don't remember [...] 1539 17 39_Re: Yossi Beilin and the Bicycle Riders0_13_JLCAA@aol.com28_Mon, 3 Jun 2002 12:05:11 EDT387_US-ASCII I agree whole heartedly with Amnon's sentiments! Avi

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 1557 19 39_Re: Yossi Beilin and the Bicycle Riders12_David Fleiss20_dfleiss@pipeline.com31_Mon, 03 Jun 2002 12:14:14 -0400317_- While I, too, agree whole-heartedly with Amnon's sentiments, I have a *BIG* problem with the idea of asking a chaverah to leave the mailing list.

As far as I remember, the only criteria for joining this mailing list is having been a chaver/chaverah t'nuah. I don't remember any ideological litmus test. [...] 1577 20 9_volunteer12_Fine, Sharon14_FineS@MLHS.ORG30_Mon, 3 Jun 2002 12:23:11 -0400356_- I know someone who would like to volunteer in some way in Israel for a few weeks or a month. I've heard of a number of programs gratefully accepting volunteers, but he can't afford air fare to Israel. This is an adult (not a teenager - I know about those programs) who is currently unemployed. Can anyone suggest who he might contact? Thanx, Sharon [...] 1598 103 16_Fw: yossi beilin7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Tue, 04 Jun 2002 01:06:47 +0300588_iso-8859-1 this is what you call "soft-core incitement to murder?" atah matzhik oti. Very demogogic of you. Very Stalinist. Is there anyone in Israel who wants another Oslo? Is there any one naive enough to believe that Yossi Beilin is going to pull off a peace plan that will work? Disagreement with people who brought on the catastrophe that was Oslo doesn't mean you want them dead -- you just don't want them in a position to do more damage, especially since Beilin is on salary from the European Union, who is also "supporting" Arafat's terrorist network with their well-over a [...] 1702 29 27_Re: Punishing the messenger11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Mon, 03 Jun 2002 19:48:18 -0400379_us-ascii "Fine, Sharon" wrote:

> If the messenger distorts the story, they deserve to be punished. Most of > the complaints, at least from Honest Reporting, regard warped or completely > inaccurate presentations. I don't think it's asking too much to expect a > news purveyor to portray events accurately and either without bias, or with > balanced quotes. > -Sharon [...] 1732 48 20_Re: Fw: yossi beilin11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Mon, 03 Jun 2002 19:55:51 -0400507_us-ascii Skolnik wrote:

> ... > Very demogogic of you. Very Stalinist.

Takes one to know one? :-)



> .... It is very difficult for people who had so many high hopes for peace > to admit they were wrong because their whole world view is in danger of > collapse if they admit to having read the cards wrong. Who was right: > those who said to give Arafat the 40,000 guns and rifles or those who said > "don't give them the guns for they will ultimately be used against us?" > [...] 1781 52 27_Re: Punishing the messenger0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com28_Mon, 3 Jun 2002 20:49:32 EDT439_US-ASCII In a message dated 6/3/02 7:58:03 PM Eastern Daylight Time, stopak@orionsci.com writes:



> I've found "Honest Reporting" to be an excellent source of > warped or completely inaccurate presentations. > > Noam >

I concur and have been saying this for well over a year.

I also would like to suggest that anyone who suggests that someone on the list be banned, be banned. (Oops, that would include me now.) 1834 344 18_debate on transfer13_moshe sheskin24_moshes7@netvision.net.il55_Mon, 03 Jun 2002 22:29:41 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time)581_iso-8859-1 It is generally accepted that given the birth rate of Israeli Arabs, the demographic balance will shift in their favour. One of the ways of retaining the status quo or even shifting the weight in favour of the Jewish population is the concept of transfer. I know that whenever I use that word, I receive glaring looks particularly by my left wing friends. What some fail to undersand is that when I refer to 'transfer' it is not as defined by the Kach party whereby Israeli Arabs would be physically removed to other Arab countries, with or without compensation. I [...] 2179 17 20_Re: Fw: yossi beilin0_15_Emabear@aol.com28_Mon, 3 Jun 2002 23:33:37 EDT477_US-ASCII AND "TAKES ONE TO KNOW ONE" IS NOT LASHON HARAH? EVEN IF IT HAS A SMILELY FACE AFTER IT. WHY CAN'T OPINIONS BE GIVEN W/O ATTACK ON THE WRITER.

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 2197 26 20_Re: Fw: yossi beilin11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Tue, 04 Jun 2002 05:26:26 -0400590_us-ascii



Emabear@aol.com wrote:

> AND "TAKES ONE TO KNOW ONE" IS NOT LASHON HARAH? EVEN IF IT HAS A SMILELY > FACE AFTER IT. WHY CAN'T OPINIONS BE GIVEN W/O ATTACK ON THE WRITER. > > -

Actually it was a question. Please stop shouting.

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 2224 43 13_Re: volunteer7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Tue, 04 Jun 2002 01:31:16 +0300591_windows-1255 sharon, there is a volunteer program for the Israeli army for a period of a few weeks in summer. At 1:30 a.m. I can't remember the name of the program, but it's all adults, they give the people uniforms and for a few dizzying weeks they are "soldiers," doing all sorts of jobs to alleviate regular soldiers. My cousin, for instance, is an artist, and she spent her "service" painting decorations on the outer wall of the army camp. Others work sewing, repairing uniforms, maintenance, laundry, kitchen duty, etc. I would imagine that the Embassy or the Jewish Agency would [...] 2268 32 35_Yossi Beilin and the Bicycle Riders12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Tue, 04 Jun 2002 18:21:40 +0200584_us-ascii Sharon, Shalom So how come you ask for one set of criteria from news purveyors and another set from someone who has been telling readers of the list whom she addresses as "you people" the real truth in an ex cathedra manner? Such real truths have often fallen off the right side of the world. Some of them invite apoplexy like the idea of stopping the Intifada by threatening to sew up terrorists in pigskins (which Urban Legends actually attributed to General John J. Pershing quickly stopped. It happened in the Philippines about 1911, when Pershing was in command of [...] 2301 107 19_The Future of Pearl0_18_DLerner569@aol.com28_Tue, 4 Jun 2002 11:21:50 EDT544_US-ASCII I am confused. I thought my Chaverim b'Habonim were engaged in a multi-level discussion about the future of Israel, but it seems that is only a pretext for a much more passionate discussion about the future of Pearl.

I was taught not to talk about someone present in the third person; and in fact to talk to rather than about a person. Somehow this seems the exception that proves the rule. I have a bias in favor of Pearl. Not her politics, or her life choices, but her person and soul, for I knew her at a time, long ago [...] 2409 31 39_Re: Yossi Beilin and the Bicycle Riders0_18_DLerner569@aol.com28_Tue, 4 Jun 2002 11:34:39 EDT368_US-ASCII Is that Pearl's sin? Speaking ex cathedra? Then surely I am to be banished too. Is it the presence of a footnote, a reference that makes posting here legitimate acceptable? If a lunatic can get himself published or quoted then its OK, but not if I post what purports to be fact, if I didn't witness it directly? Sounds to me like we're the style police. [...] 2441 21 23_Re: The Future of Pearl0_18_Judithb253@aol.com28_Tue, 4 Jun 2002 12:42:14 EDT369_US-ASCII Amen to Dennis's posting of 6/4 to and about Pearl. Politically correctness is in the eye of the beholder, and I for one have come to hate the word as imposing on my own right to have my own opinions, as well as the majority who post on Habonet. I fervently hope that free speech is not only for certain vocal parts of this very special community. judy b [...] 2463 57 61_=?iso-8859-1?B?4fLw6envOiBQdW5pc2hpbmcgdGhlIG1lc3Nlbmdlcg==?=8_ericmoli25_ericmoli@netvision.net.il31_Tue, 04 Jun 2002 22:47:03 +0200375_iso-8859-1

Dear Noam,

Would you perhaps be from Baltimore, Md? I come from Wash., D.C., but our chapter (ken) was very close to the Habonim (Dror) chapter (ken) in Baltimore in the '40s and '50s. I knew someone, whose last name was Stopack and was very popular. Unfortunately, I can't remember his first name. Maybe you can help solve this minor mystery. [...] 2521 136 20_Re: Fw: yossi beilin13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Tue, 04 Jun 2002 16:17:05 -0400555_us-ascii Dear Pearl,

I would be very interested in knowing more about Yossi Beillin's "job" for the EU. I spent about a hour searching the internet with all the key words I could think of and the only thing I could find was insinuations by Barry Chamish, the Israeli far right "investigative reporter", about Beilin being connected to the EU. I am open to the possibility that I missed it, but when someone tars a person for whom I have great respect (Beilin), I like to have proof. In fact the tarring of you, a person I respect, by Amnon, a [...] 2658 57 49_Re: short-term volunteer program for Israeli army7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Tue, 04 Jun 2002 17:55:27 +0300207_iso-8859-1

-



Sounds like you are referring to Sar-El Volunteers for Israel



----------------------------- Brian Cooper brianscoop@aol.com

2716 59 64_Re: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=E1=F2=F0=E9=E9=EF?=: Punishing the messenger13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Tue, 04 Jun 2002 16:29:12 -0400548_us-ascii As far as I know, there has never been a Stopak-less year at Mosh, from the beginning of time (1932) ad hayom. Judy

ericmoli wrote:

> Dear Noam, > > Would you perhaps be from Baltimore, Md? I come from Wash., D.C., but our > chapter (ken) was very close to the Habonim (Dror) chapter (ken) in > Baltimore in the '40s and '50s. I knew someone, whose last name was Stopack > and was very popular. Unfortunately, I can't remember his first name. > Maybe you can help solve this minor mystery. > > Shalom Rav, > Mollie Marx [...] 2776 23 21_Re: Punishing Moshava11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Tue, 04 Jun 2002 16:32:33 -0400312_us-ascii Alas, Judy, I think that string broke somewhere in the 80's when my cousin Avi went for the last time. Should start up again some year soon.

Judith Gelman wrote:

> As far as I know, there has never been a Stopak-less year at Mosh, from the > beginning of time (1932) ad hayom. > Judy [...] 2800 28 21_Re: Punishing Moshava13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Tue, 04 Jun 2002 16:40:21 -0400430_us-ascii What about Tali's daughter? Or does only the paternal line count for Stopaks? Judy

Noam Stopak wrote:

> Alas, Judy, I think that string broke somewhere in the 80's when my cousin Avi went for the last time. Should start up again some year soon. > > Judith Gelman wrote: > > > As far as I know, there has never been a Stopak-less year at Mosh, from the > > beginning of time (1932) ad hayom. > > Judy > [...] 2829 94 41_: RE: Yossi Beilin and the Bicycle Riders12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Wed, 05 Jun 2002 00:21:19 +0200588_us-ascii Sharon, Shalom I now notice that I didn't respond substantively to the main thrust of your communication: >As you described the bumper-sticker, I assumed the dripping blood was meant to call to mind all the people who have been killed in the intifada, the implication being that the quest for peace somehow caused the intifada or something along those lines. Not a concept I agree with, but hardly a call for murder. I think there's been more than enough of this one asking that one to leave Habonet. I don't remember reading any incitement to violence in the letter you're [...] 2924 55 21_Re: Punishing Moshava19_Orit Lowy Chicherio16_oritil@yahoo.com36_Tue, 4 Jun 2002 15:03:12 -0700 (PDT)496_us-ascii As far as I know, Miriam didn't go to Mosh. Orit

--- Judith Gelman wrote: > What about Tali's daughter? Or does only the > paternal line count for Stopaks? > Judy > > Noam Stopak wrote: > > > Alas, Judy, I think that string broke > somewhere in the 80's when my cousin Avi went > for the last time. Should start up again some > year soon. > > > > Judith Gelman wrote: > > > > > As far as I know, there has never been a > Stopak-less year at Mosh, from the [...] 2980 42 39_RE: Yossi Beilin and the Bicycle Riders12_Fine, Sharon14_FineS@MLHS.ORG30_Tue, 4 Jun 2002 18:41:50 -0400589_- I see nothing at all wrong with a double standard for people claiming to present the news, and people expressing their own opinions on a private listserv. That said, I have in fact had words with Pearl (and others) in the past about the way she sometimes expresses her opinions as though they were gospel. And as for the now infamous pig-skin episode, Pearl never actually said she thought it should be done. She forwarded an article which discussed the possibility. I don't assume that when someone forwards an article, they necessarily endorse it. As for the people who attribute [...] 3023 214 17_Honest Reporting?16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Tue, 04 Jun 2002 19:09:53 -0400611_us-ascii In Habonet 2257, Sharon Fine wrote that

> Most of > the complaints, at least from Honest Reporting, regard warped or completely > inaccurate presentations. > It would be better, Sharon, if you read Honest Reporting (which in my view is neither) with a careful interpretive prism. For HR has its own right-wing agenda of support for the expansionist settlers' movement. I will readily admit that they cull through a wide and variagated number of news media, many of which are indeed not necessarily friendly to or objective about middle east coverage. But HR also has red herrings that just [...] 3238 18 45_RE: : RE: Yossi Beilin and the Bicycle Riders12_Fine, Sharon14_FineS@MLHS.ORG30_Tue, 4 Jun 2002 19:33:39 -0400520_- I now understand better why you jumped down Pearl's throat, but I stand by what I said about your response to her. For what it's worth, I retract what I said about the bumper stickers. -Sharon

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 3257 38 21_RE: Honest Reporting?12_Fine, Sharon14_FineS@MLHS.ORG30_Tue, 4 Jun 2002 19:46:55 -0400541_- I agree with you that we should all read critically. I do try to. In my reference to Honest Reporting, I never suggested that *they* weren't biased. They don't claim to provide the news, nor do they claim to be even handed. Their stated goal is to report anti-Israel bias in the news. I only subscribed to it a few months ago and don't even have time to read all of their missives. What I have read, I have found to be pretty accurate, although I think they tend to over-react a bit. For instance, they recently criticized an article [...] 3296 69 64_Re: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=E1=F2=F0=E9=E9=EF?=: Punishing the messenger16_Genevieve Marcus20_drmarcus@pacbell.net31_Tue, 04 Jun 2002 16:56:44 -0700538_us-ascii Mollie,

Could you be seeking Chaim Stopak? I knew him at Winnepeg Kvutza.

Geanie Grafe Marcus

Judith Gelman wrote:

> As far as I know, there has never been a Stopak-less year at Mosh, from the > beginning of time (1932) ad hayom. > Judy > > ericmoli wrote: > > > Dear Noam, > > > > Would you perhaps be from Baltimore, Md? I come from Wash., D.C., but our > > chapter (ken) was very close to the Habonim (Dror) chapter (ken) in > > Baltimore in the '40s and '50s. I knew someone, whose last name [...] 3366 29 21_Re: Punishing Moshava0_15_Marshlf@aol.com28_Tue, 4 Jun 2002 20:57:20 EDT108_US-ASCII gee noam, the year that eli and emily go to mosh, well, we could have some, ahem, deja vous....lisa 3396 35 21_Re: Pigskin Reporting11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Tue, 04 Jun 2002 21:35:05 -0400606_us-ascii



"Fine, Sharon" wrote:

> ... > As for the people who attribute inaccuracy to Honest Reporting - care to > offer any examples? > -Sharon

Back in february where was a period when the NY Times email delivery, which lists stories in various categories, was delivering OpEd pieces in various other subject areas such as national or international news without labeling them as such. It just so happens that a piece by Arafat turned up this way. The Honest Reporting folks were all up in arms and seemed to think this was some conspiracy to dupe the news reading public [...] 3432 32 21_RE: Pigskin Reporting12_Fine, Sharon14_FineS@MLHS.ORG30_Tue, 4 Jun 2002 22:03:33 -0400568_- As I said earlier, I think they (HR) have either calmed down some since then, or maybe I'm not reading with a critical enough eye. Be that as it may, do you only find things interesting that you agree with? Although I don't generally forward articles to habonet, I routinely do to a few relatives. (In fact, I get most of the articles *from* habonet.) The articles are often diametrically opposed to eachother. It's a good thing my family doesn't assume I approve of each one, or they'd think I had a multiple personality disorder! I really don't remember what [...] 3465 50 21_Re: Pigskin Reporting13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Tue, 04 Jun 2002 23:08:31 -0400512_us-ascii Dear Chevre-

Let's not start the pigskin war again. It is all in the April 2001 archives. If you want to research who said what to whom when, go look it up. After you have all the facts, if you absolutely feel the need to discuss the whys and wherefores of who said what in this old argument, please post your intentions in advance so that those of us that wish to avoid a repeat can all go "NO MAIL" for a week until you get it out of your systems. Anyone who wants to know what I think on [...] 3516 40 21_Re: Punishing Moshava0_15_DebALev@aol.com28_Wed, 5 Jun 2002 00:01:31 EDT238_US-ASCII In a message dated 6/4/2002 8:57:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Marshlf@aol.com writes:



> gee noam, the year that eli and emily go to mosh, well, we could have some, > ahem, deja vous....lisa

HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM 3557 38 17_Courage to Refuse0_13_SC523@aol.com28_Wed, 5 Jun 2002 02:55:10 EDT448_US-ASCII Given our whole discussion about Jon Eliasov's son and then the presentation on 60 minutes, I"d like to invite anyone in commuting distance of the New York area to join me at the West Side Minyan for a speaker from Courage to Refuse (if you'd like to join us during Minyan time, it's funky and very informal - you may dress any way you like - we begin at approximately 10:30) (if not joining us for tefilla, then just come at 12:30): [...] 3596 21 7_Whoops!0_13_SC523@aol.com28_Wed, 5 Jun 2002 03:00:18 EDT606_US-ASCII Fprgot to give the location of the West SIde Minyan for the Aron Trauring/Courage to Refuse talk - it's in Temple Ansche CHesed at 251 W. 100th Street - on the corner of WEst End and 100th - entrance on 100th Street just slightly off WEst End towards Broadway.

ACC

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 3618 112 6_Encore12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Wed, 05 Jun 2002 14:42:22 +0200313_us-ascii HAVEROT/IM ... .autobiography of Abel Dan Pagis I died with the first blow and was buried in the stony field. The raven showed my parents what to do with me. *

If my family is famous, not a little of the credit goes to me. My brother invented murder, My parents - crying, I invented silence. [...] 3731 28 19_Re: differing views11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Wed, 05 Jun 2002 09:25:15 -0400490_us-ascii "Fine, Sharon" wrote:

> As I said earlier, I think they (HR) have either calmed down some since > then, or maybe I'm not reading with a critical enough eye. Be that as it > may, do you only find things interesting that you agree with?

Of course I am interested in other views. What did I say that led you to believe otherwise? I think a review of habonet over the past many years will show that I'm a vocal opponent of censorship and an advocate of free speech. [...] 3760 435 46_Office of House Democratic Leader: Read Speech16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Wed, 05 Jun 2002 11:03:44 -040086_us-ascii

http://democraticleader.house.gov/media/speeches/readSpeech.asp?ID=57 4196 19 19_Re: differing views0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com28_Wed, 5 Jun 2002 22:40:29 EDT296_US-ASCII I oppose censuoship categorically excepg in the case of Noah S. It is ok tp censure anything he says just on geneeral prinicple. I know that is not an idea with great intellectual rigor but who cares. and if you do disagree with what I said write in to whoever to have it stricken. [...] 4216 41 19_Re: differing views0_15_DebALev@aol.com28_Wed, 5 Jun 2002 23:34:13 EDT224_US-ASCII In a message dated 6/5/2002 10:40:59 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Smfgrappa@aol.com writes:



> I oppose censuoship categorically excepg in the case of Noah S



Sam..............who is Noah S? 4258 32 19_Re: differing views11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Thu, 06 Jun 2002 11:18:28 -0400344_us-ascii

Smfgrappa@aol.com wrote:

> I oppose censuoship categorically excepg in the case of Noah S. It is ok tp > censure anything he says just on geneeral prinicple. I know that is not an > idea with great intellectual rigor but who cares. and if you do disagree with > what I said write in to whoever to have it stricken. [...] 4291 16 23_Re: HABONET digest 22590_17_Shulansid@aol.com28_Thu, 6 Jun 2002 11:32:43 EDT409_US-ASCII Sorry, it may have been True Blue, but too difficult to read!!! Shula Troy

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 4308 41 19_Re: differing views0_18_DLerner569@aol.com28_Thu, 6 Jun 2002 11:37:56 EDT213_US-ASCII In a message dated 6/5/2002 11:35:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, DebALev@aol.com writes:



> censuoship

Sam what is censuoship? Maybe it time to get that prescription checked. ;-) Dennis 4350 86 27_Fwd: A Place to Stay in NYC0_18_DLerner569@aol.com28_Thu, 6 Jun 2002 11:39:34 EDT49_US-ASCII Meg is Mary's (my wife's) cousin. Dennis 4437 31 22_those ten Commandments0_18_DLerner569@aol.com28_Thu, 6 Jun 2002 11:52:19 EDT582_US-ASCII Amnon, I'd appreciate it if you would take a look at Exodus 19 and 20. It strikes me that these commandments, which I think most of the world thinks of as a basic or minimum set of rules (they are followed by a much more detailed set of specific conduct rules). Yet I think any reasonably open and literal consideration of them makes clear that these are actually ultimate standards. If one were to consistently adhere to these commandments human existence (not to mention character) would be transformed into an entirely different thing. So I am tempted to see these [...] 4469 26 9_deja vous20_Naomi Goldberg Honor18_naomijgh@yahoo.com36_Thu, 6 Jun 2002 09:03:39 -0700 (PDT)631_us-ascii Speaking of Mosh deja vous --

Who's coming to the kumsitz saturday night and/or the Workshop thing on Sunday?

Naomi Goldberg Honor

__________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 4496 24 19_Ishmael a.k.a. Esau0_18_DLerner569@aol.com28_Thu, 6 Jun 2002 12:58:42 EDT375_US-ASCII I printed out Amnon's posting and kept it on my desk in hopes that I might one day fully decipher it. Hope springs eternal. In the meantime I see that Amnon is telling me (us) that here in the Galut we are wrestling with our fears of what lies ahead for us b'eretz, and that if we don't give up/in to our fears, we are invited to cross into the land of Israel. [...] 4521 33 13_Re: deja vous13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Thu, 06 Jun 2002 17:05:51 -0400417_us-ascii I'll miss you all, but I can't get there.

Judy Gelman

Naomi Goldberg Honor wrote:

> Speaking of Mosh deja vous -- > > Who's coming to the kumsitz saturday night and/or the > Workshop thing on Sunday? > > Naomi Goldberg Honor > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup > http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com > [...] 4555 32 10_Re:Reunion0_17_JackNusan@aol.com28_Thu, 6 Jun 2002 18:02:01 EDT442_US-ASCII Dear Chereh: I'll be coming and I look forward to it. I'll be staying at the Quality Hotel on 94th and Broadway. Coming Friday morning and leaving by bus to Boston at 7 PM Sunday. It takes four hours to get to Boston, arriving at 11 PM.

Would anyone like to go to a B'way play on Friday evening with me? Also, any suggestions for Shabbat Services Fri and Sat, Ansche Hesed? Bnai Jeshuran? or ? what are your suggestions? [...] 4588 139 20_Re: Ten Commandments12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Fri, 07 Jun 2002 17:54:21 +0200518_us-ascii Dennis shalom, Well my friend you are a lot of trouble but I love it so I guess by extension I could say that I love you too. I'm getting my thoughts in order so I can put together an answer to your message.

Amnon, I'd appreciate it if you would take a look at Exodus 19 and 20. It strikes me that these commandments, which I think most of the world thinks of as a basic or minimum set of rules (they are followed by a much more detailed set of specific conduct rules). Yet I think any reasonably [...] 4728 33 15_Arise and Build11_Jamie Levin22_mazkir@habonimdror.org30_Fri, 7 Jun 2002 15:13:41 -0400408_iso-8859-1 For the fiftieth anniversary of Workshop celebrations this weekend HDNA is officially unveiling the web version of Arise and Build. An excellent resource Arise and Build, published in 1961, chronicles much of Habonim's early history. Go to www.habonimdror.org, click on publications and select Arise and Build.

Aleh V'Hagshem,

Jamie Levin Mazkir Tnua Habonim Dror North America [...] 4762 51 50_From Palm Springs..some thoughts about Lashon Hara0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com28_Sat, 8 Jun 2002 00:38:25 EDT536_US-ASCII I was supposed to be in NY this week- last weekend to attend my cousin's "baby-naming" and this weekend for the Reunion....Instead, because of events that were "beyond my control," ( A car accident and the fact that the building across the street blew up - not a bomb- but the stupidity of a man who was fixing his stove and decided to light up a cigarette which rendered 300 people homeless and he lost his life!- z"l)I found that my ticket remains on my desk, and the goodness of my best friend led to a few days in her [...] 4814 16 23_Re: The Future of Pearl0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com28_Sat, 8 Jun 2002 00:40:51 EDT372_US-ASCII My sentiments exactly, Dennis!--- sue

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 4831 91 115_=?iso-8859-1?B?4fLw6envOiBGcm9tIFBhbG0gU3ByaW5ncy4uc29tZSB0aG91Z2h0cyBh?= =?iso-8859-1?B?Ym91dCBMYXNob24gSGFyYQ==?=8_ericmoli25_ericmoli@netvision.net.il31_Sat, 08 Jun 2002 16:17:58 +0200334_iso-8859-1 Dear Sue,

Enjoyed reading your letter, as I usually do. Please, though, don't keep us in suspense. Did you ask the Rabbi about lashon hara and what did he say?

Isn't it wonderful that, thanks to Chabad, one can find a Rabbi when one needs him. It wasn't like that when I was young, many, many moons ago. [...] 4923 22 18_The Rabbi's answer0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com28_Sat, 8 Jun 2002 11:46:30 EDT534_US-ASCII Funny- I didn't put much emphasis on "the answer"- because it was disappointing and I suppose I was so impressed by the "experience" rather than the outcome. he said, "Hmnn--very difficult...you need to bring him to a bet din...Is he observant?"--My answer was, of course, no- since he considers himself "reform-spiritual".....From the rabbi came a smile and the following answer after that- "Well, if he is non-observant, WE can't do anything. and neither will a bet din...find a way to let his congregation know.....s [...] 4946 19 104_=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=E4=F2=E1=F8=E4:=20Thought=20you=20might=20?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?like=20to=20know....?=0_18_Brianscoop@aol.com28_Sat, 8 Jun 2002 13:33:43 EDT442_US-ASCII the fuji stuff is a hoax. it is NOT true.. please DO NOT send this kind of stuff to habonet.

--brian

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 4966 508 31_Ten Commandments - Two Versions12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Sat, 08 Jun 2002 21:04:46 +0200595_us-ascii



Dennis Let's recapitulate. You wrote: >I'd appreciate it if you would take a look at Exodus 19 and 20. It strikes me that these commandments, which I think most of the world thinks of as a basic or minimum set of rules (they are followed by a much more detailed set of specific conduct rules). Yet I think any reasonably open and literal consideration of them makes clear that these are actually ultimate standards. < The decalogue or Asseret Ha'Dibrot or Ten Commandments (like much else in the Tanakh) are simply not amenable to any " reasonably open and literal [...] 5475 49 34_In your face angels- a long story-0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com28_Sat, 8 Jun 2002 16:08:23 EDT570_US-ASCII While Amnon's almost admission to atheism sometimes also invades my belief systems, I also find it interesting that, just at the right moment, people are plopped down in front of me just as if they were sent by some Higher Power. An amazing thing happened once when I was working on a film- it involved Michael Nouri. It was on the third day of shooting during breakfast on the set- the producers had a seemingly impossible request. "We think we may need a body double for Michael, because today we are shooting those running scenes, and he might not want [...] 5525 127 34_Confessions of a Bulldozer Driver]0_24_purpleroot8@netscape.net31_Sat, 08 Jun 2002 16:50:43 -0400415_iso-8859-1 I wonder whether we should forget Jenin so quickly.

S. Perel



__________________________________________________________________ Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop@Netscape! http://shopnow.netscape.com/

Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ 5653 105 44_Foreign Ministry Information Training Course7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Sat, 08 Jun 2002 23:42:32 +0300596_windows-1255 > This might be of interest to Habonim grads who want to help Israel in its PR efforts. I found this is in an HonestReporting sheet. Below tells who they are -- no connection to any political party or platform. > > ========== INFORMATION TRAINING COURSE ============ > > "The Community Ambassador Training Course" has been developed by a team > from the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs and the Jewish Agency. Those > who successfully complete the course are certified as unofficial spokesmen > for the Israeli cause. > > This online course consists of four weekly units: an [...] 5759 37 23_Re: The Future of Pearl7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Sun, 09 Jun 2002 00:02:37 +0300565_iso-8859-1 thank you -- you can't know how much I appreciate such kind thoughts from chaverim. It is comforting to know I am not a lone wolf. pearl ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, June 04, 2002 7:42 PM Subject: Re: The Future of Pearl



> Amen to Dennis's posting of 6/4 to and about Pearl. Politically correctness > is in the eye of the beholder, and I for one have come to hate the word as > imposing on my own right to have my own opinions, as well as the majority who > post on [...] 5797 243 10_in defence7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Sun, 09 Jun 2002 01:55:59 +0300567_iso-8859-1 In partial answer..... I do not read Chamish -- I tried once, and, well, it wasn't for me. I don't like his adjectives..... I read three Israeli newspapers -- two dailies, one weekly. It is a sickness with me to read newspapers. Since I am five years old. On Friday, I read, there will be a major article about Yossi Beilin in one of them, setting out the story of the European Union funding of his Economic Cooperation Foundation. This is a non-profit foundation, which means it has to report its funding to the Interior Ministry every year. . Yossi [...] 6041 206 22_Re: in defence: part 27_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Sun, 09 Jun 2002 02:06:23 +0300413_iso-8859-1 Chaverim, shavua tov, I really tried not to answer the letter below, but since it is eating at me I feel I must, because of the misleading comments that in no way describe who I am and what I believe. Most of it simply is not true. period. I am accused of intimating and saying things when I only repeated what others have said and are saying and which is common knowledge to those who live here. [...] 6248 74 38_Re: In your face angels- a long story-7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Sun, 09 Jun 2002 02:15:05 +0300609_iso-8859-1 great story, wonderfully told! shavua tov, pearl ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, June 08, 2002 11:08 PM Subject: In your face angels- a long story-



> While Amnon's almost admission to atheism sometimes also invades my belief > systems, I also find it interesting that, just at the right moment, people > are plopped down in front of me just as if they were sent by some Higher > Power. An amazing thing happened once when I was working on a film- it > involved Michael Nouri. It was on the third day of shooting [...] 6323 31 17_Skolnik on Beilin11_batya fromm18_fromm@inter.net.il31_Sun, 09 Jun 2002 11:48:05 +0300580_us-ascii Although I decided awhile ago not to get involved in arguments with Pearl Skolnik, I feel that her last posting deserves a comment. Some time ago I attacked the Eretz Yisrael Hashlaima people for being financed by misled Jewish millionaires in the Golah, and in that way contributing to a large extent to the settling of the West Bank. Personally I do not agree with Yossi Beilin's ideas but I believe that to attack Beilin for receiving funds from the EU is the height of hypocrisy. He is accused of attempting to influence our most fateful decisions, while at the [...] 6355 63 6_Chabad16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Sun, 09 Jun 2002 12:21:24 -0400617_us-ascii In habonet 2262, Molly Marx wrote

> Isn't it wonderful that, thanks to Chabad, one can find a Rabbi when one > needs him. > David Berger, a professor of history at Brooklyn College of the City University of New York (also an Orthodox rabbi) this year published a book entitled The Rebbe, the Messiah and the Scandal of Orthodox Indifference. Essentially, he postulates that with their Schneerson-as-Messiah complex, the Lubavitch have finally gone beyond the pale of normative Judaism. In short, Berger says, Chabad isn't Jewish any longer. An article based on his book, "The Rebbe, the Jews and [...] 6419 29 31_Re: Chabad- "Na'aseh v"nishmah"0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com28_Sun, 9 Jun 2002 12:58:31 EDT583_US-ASCII I do not claim to have any intellectual knowledge regarding Chabad- but I can tell you that the experiences I have had with them has been mostly positive and- at some times- even comforting. I suppose my biggest "complaint" is that their " put on tfellin and we'll talk later" approach to Judaism- at least towards us "outcasts" is lacking any "kavanah"-- and I am not sure that doing a mitzva with no kavanah is "kosher"- then - on the other hand- you have "Bontche Schweig"- whose purity in deeds was so compelling- perhaps "kavanah" would have ruined him.....When I [...] 6449 18 10_Re: Chabad0_15_DebALev@aol.com28_Sun, 9 Jun 2002 13:46:35 EDT418_US-ASCII EliD, I would really appreciate it if you could send me that article!

Debbie

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 6468 18 54_Re: From Palm Springs..some thoughts about Lashon Hara0_18_DLerner569@aol.com28_Sun, 9 Jun 2002 14:17:47 EDT380_US-ASCII Sue, So what did the Chabad Rabbi say? Dennis

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 6487 53 0_12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Sun, 09 Jun 2002 21:59:31 +0200565_us-ascii To Sam Flesher, What I always liked about Zionism was the breadth of its dialectic. This comes thru strongly in Rahel's _V'Ulai_ (Perhaps.) The critic Northrop Frye said it this way: Between religion's "this is" and poetry's "but suppose this is," there must always be some kind of tension, until the possible and the actual meet at infinity. And in previous stages of the epic that has unfolded here in the homeland I was convinced that Zionism was where Judaism's actual and possible had met. Now I can only hope that we weren't too far off course. [...] 6541 46 21_Re: Skolnik on Beilin7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Sun, 09 Jun 2002 14:23:16 +0300475_iso-8859-1 there is a difference between "misguided/misled Jews" buying ambulances, building yeshivas and synagogues, and foreign governments trying to influence the internal affairs of this government. The building of the settlements was/ is carried out by the various governments not by private sources. pearl ----- Original Message ----- From: batya fromm To: Sent: Sunday, June 09, 2002 11:48 AM Subject: Skolnik on Beilin [...] 6588 195 35_putting the habonim back in habonet13_Avi Goldstein24_habergo@barak-online.net30_Sun, 9 Jun 2002 22:47:24 +0200555_us-ascii Sitting here in Jerusalem reading habonet for the last few weeks has been at times interesting and entertaining, stimulating, etc. But where's the Habonim? Sitting here in Jerusalem I have picked up hints about a workshop/habonim reunion this weekend, yet I find almost no references. Is it me, or am I wrong to have expected at least a rumble of enthusiasm building up on Habonet for what I assume is a long planned event. I think that I noticed 2 e-mails on the subject. Is the eevent adud, or are the people going not on habonet? Avi Goldstein 6784 267 14_Re: in defence13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Sun, 09 Jun 2002 22:13:24 -0400616_us-ascii Dear Pearl,

Ok, you and I now have a basis for discussion on Yossi Beilin. We can agree that Yossi Beilin receives a salary (of 400,000 NIS or about $80,000) from the Economic Cooperation Foundation. We can also agree that the foundation receives funding from the EU.

Here is where we disagree: Working for a foundation that receives money from governmental agencies does not mean you work for that government. Yes, a foundation dependent on a particular funding source might modify its behavior in a effort to continue receiving that funding, but that is a far cry from the foundation's [...] 7052 21 14_Re: in defence0_18_DLerner569@aol.com28_Sun, 9 Jun 2002 22:24:00 EDT616_US-ASCII I think this misses the point. The issue is, or I think should be, not who pays Mr. Beilin, although that is certainly of interest, but rather what is an individual citizen doing negotiating/arranging or whatever on behalf of either the state or the people of Israel?

Dennis

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 7074 183 11_Fwd: Norway0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com28_Sun, 9 Jun 2002 22:56:27 EDT17_US-ASCII

7258 78 35_Re: Ten Commandments - Two Versions0_18_DLerner569@aol.com28_Sun, 9 Jun 2002 23:03:48 EDT596_US-ASCII Amnon, Some random thoughts. First, thank you very much for the exposition. Second, I think it interesting that the honoring of ones parents seems directed at children, certainly my parents invoked in that context, but surely like the other commandments it is intended at least for adults as well. Is the honor being spoken of making ones parents proud? Obedience to their wishes ( a problematic issue for most adults) ? Is it an admonition to provide for the care and well-being of ones parents? Since both parents are treated as one, how does one behave in circumstances where to [...] 7337 73 15_Re: Fwd: Norway21_Tsippi (Frances) Rudy16_tsippi@attbi.com31_Mon, 10 Jun 2002 01:49:04 -0700378_us-ascii Dear Sue,

At 07:56 PM 6/9/02, you wrote:



>Interesting fact based article. It is another point of >view. > >--steve > > >Why I Won't Be Seeing The Fjords This Summer >By Bennett M. Epstein May 20, 2002



It WAS an interesting article; who is Steve; and what are Bennett M. Epstein's credentials? Where was this article published? [...] 7411 117 20_Re Skolnik on Beilin16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Mon, 10 Jun 2002 09:06:38 -0400727_us-ascii In Habonet 2263, Pearl Skolnik wrote that

> there is a difference between "misguided/misled Jews" buying ambulances, > building yeshivas and synagogues, and foreign governments trying to > influence the internal affairs of this government. > I beg to differ. Countries maintain embassies in other countries where the ambassadorial staffs work to further their home countries' interests. This furtherance of interests may include--but hardly be limited to--lobbying both executive and legislative branches of national--and state or provincial--government. They also work hard to influence the opinions of local influentials, whether in business, government or the media. And on occasion foreign governments [...] 7529 24 10_Re: Norway0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Mon, 10 Jun 2002 11:06:52 EDT542_US-ASCII I'm in no position to take issue with the reported state of current Norwegian attitudes and policies, but the overall tenor of the piece is at variance with my basic understanding of the Norwegian position vis a vis Nazi Germany. The Swedes did business and made money (lots of it) with the Nazis. The Norwegians underwent considerable economic hardship and privation and had a large and active underground and resistance to the Nazis. This doesn't jibe with the tenor of the article. Who and what is wrong with these pictures? [...] 7554 47 35_Re: outside funding and free speech11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Mon, 10 Jun 2002 11:09:57 -0400575_us-ascii



Skolnik wrote:

> ... > On Friday, I read, there will be a major article about Yossi Beilin in one > of them, setting out the story of the European Union funding of his Economic > Cooperation Foundation. This is a non-profit foundation, which means it has > to report its funding to the Interior Ministry every year. . Yossi Beilin > has never denied being funded by the European Union. The fact of his being > on their salary is well-known in Israel and is part of the public domain > already. It is regularly mentioned in the newspapers [...] 7602 75 10_Re: Norway0_15_DebALev@aol.com29_Mon, 10 Jun 2002 12:30:47 EDT430_US-ASCII In a message dated 6/10/2002 4:47:29 AM Eastern Daylight Time, tsippi@attbi.com writes:



> > > It WAS an interesting article; who is Steve; and what are Bennett M. > Epstein's credentials? Where was this article published? > > I'd like to request that all who insert whole pieces please give > attributions; it's also nice to know when exactly an article appeared. > > With apologies for my pickiness, [...] 7678 16 10_Re: Norway0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Mon, 10 Jun 2002 12:46:11 EDT412_US-ASCII Ok- MEA CULPA- I didn't check the sources- but thought it was interesting...s

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 7695 43 35_Re: outside funding and free speech0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com29_Mon, 10 Jun 2002 12:52:51 EDT296_US-ASCII In a message dated 6/10/02 11:12:11 AM Eastern Daylight Time, stopak@orionsci.com writes:



> I think it is a sad day when a democracy wants to shut down > voices just because of their funding. >

It is beyond a sad day, it is the day when it is no longer a democracy. 7739 83 31_Further on the Ten Commandments0_24_purpleroot8@netscape.net31_Mon, 10 Jun 2002 14:12:34 -0400298_iso-8859-1 Hello,

I'd like to send this as a contribution to the recent discussion on the Ten Commandments. I regret not being able to send the text version on a friend's PC I'm using at the moment, but no one will have trouble getting through to the Onion article. I hope you like it. [...] 7823 18 17_Bennet M. Epstein0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Mon, 10 Jun 2002 14:13:14 EDT532_US-ASCII I just got off the phone with Mr. Epstein- who is a lawyer based out of Manhattan- He seems very knowledgeable and if anyoe wants his phone number- email me privately and I will give it to you..Sue

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 7842 24 35_Re: outside funding and free speech0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Mon, 10 Jun 2002 14:16:11 EDT338_US-ASCII

In a message dated 6/11/02 12:53:41 AM, Richardrdsmith@aol.com writes:

<< I think it is a sad day when a democracy wants to shut down > voices just because of their funding. > >>

It may be a sad day- but it is reality- Just look at the lobbyists on Capitol Hill..."he who has the money gets heard"...s [...] 7867 25 21_Re: Bennet M. Epstein20_Naomi Goldberg Honor18_naomijgh@yahoo.com37_Mon, 10 Jun 2002 14:19:01 -0700 (PDT)539_us-ascii So...

what did he have to say???

Naomi

__________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 7893 19 21_Re: Bennet M. Epstein0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Mon, 10 Jun 2002 17:31:30 EDT308_US-ASCII Just that he was the man who wrote the article- and that he was a working lawyer in NY- I went on the net and found that he has also been TV representing clients- he was a little short-- he asked who I was- I forgot to ask where it had apppeared...but he was very strong about his feelings...s [...] 7913 21 21_Re: Bennet M. Epstein0_15_DebALev@aol.com29_Mon, 10 Jun 2002 17:37:25 EDT514_US-ASCII If you read the article about his article at snopes that I cited, there is more information about him, about the article, and discussion of its truthfulness.



Debbie

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 7935 81 35_Re: outside funding and free speech7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Mon, 10 Jun 2002 22:57:58 +0300599_iso-8859-1 Noam, I think that the issue here is that the funding is considered interference of foreign governments in internal Israeli affairs, these governments undermining the efforts of the current government to come to a settlement by funding a person not in government who is meeting with the other side and might be interfering with whatever efforts are being made to come to a settlement. He might be feeding false hopes or negotiating matters in a counter productive manner, without a mandate from the government in power. I think it might be easier for us to grasp the meaning of this [...] 8017 358 16_response to Judy7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Tue, 11 Jun 2002 01:16:05 +0300555_iso-8859-1 Judy, shalom, I am not accusing him of being a traitor, god forbid, just of having an agenda which is being funded by governments who are certainly not Israel's friends today. It makes me suspicious of things he proposes. $80,000 is a lot of money in Israel. If they are giving him that kind of salary it is in order that he represent them in some way. He has to justify that salary. What offends me is that he sits with the enemy (as I understand it) and discusses future peace moves & initiatives without the approval of the government. [...] 8376 58 35_Re: outside funding and free speech11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Mon, 10 Jun 2002 18:42:17 -0400604_us-ascii Pearl,

This happens in the US all the time, that foreign countries hire locals to seek to influence events to suit their interests. Former government officials are often involved. Former presidents even. Check out the Carlyle Group sometime. Includes G.H.W.Bush and others. If the Palestinians want to talk to Beilin, that is their business. I don't understand your concern that this will have negative effects - as you point out, he does not represent the government, so he can promise nothing. I don't see it as a shadow government at all. It's what we in the US call lobbying. We [...] 8435 102 35_RE: outside funding and free speech11_Batel Libes25_batel_libes@earthlink.net31_Mon, 10 Jun 2002 18:54:40 -0700514_iso-8859-1 Pearl, You wrote: "How can the government negotiate productively if people in the opposition are promising other options."

That is precisely the nature and responsibility of the opposition, any opposition-to promote and support other options.

Batel



-----Original Message----- From: owner-habonet@shamash.org [mailto:owner-habonet@shamash.org]On Behalf Of Skolnik Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 12:58 PM To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: Re: outside funding and free speech [...] 8538 140 19_Two recent articles15_Leo Diesendruck18_leodie@isdn.net.il31_Tue, 11 Jun 2002 12:15:35 +0200356_US-ASCII Two recent articles were forwarded to me: one an apocalyptic vision of the future if Yossi Beilin gets into power and a second one dealing with the Moslem world. If anyone is interested please send me your email address and I will forward them.





Prof. Leo Diesendruck

Nofei Hasharon 408

7 Petach Tikva Rd. [...] 8679 19 23_Re: Two recent articles0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Tue, 11 Jun 2002 10:18:46 EDT418_US-ASCII Thank you for the offer. Please forward the referenced articles. Todah Rabah Dennis

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 8699 241 37_Snopes on so-called Norwegian boycott16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Tue, 11 Jun 2002 11:17:22 -040067_us-ascii

http://www.snopes2.com/inboxer/boycotts/norway.htm 8941 58 11_2 sentences0_15_Marshlf@aol.com29_Tue, 11 Jun 2002 11:55:26 EDT349_ISO-8859-1 here's another item circulating on the net, if you haven't seen it already. comments? or is it obvious?



"Two sentences that say it all

If the Arabs put down their weapons today there would be no more violence.

If the Jews put down their weapons today there would be no more Israel.



lisa

9000 33 15_Re: 2 sentences11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Tue, 11 Jun 2002 12:01:29 -0400349_us-ascii Marshlf@aol.com wrote:

> here's another item circulating on the net, if you haven't seen it already. comments? or is it obvious? > > "Two sentences that say it all > > If the Arabs put down their weapons today there would be no more violence. > > If the Jews put down their weapons today there would be no more Israel. > > lisa [...] 9034 36 60_Poll: Majority Palestinians See Israel's Elimination as Goal11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Tue, 11 Jun 2002 12:19:27 -0400536_us-ascii This is most discouraging news.

See the full article at www.nytimes.com/reuters/world/international-mideast-palestinian-poll.html

Noam

+++

Poll: Majority Palestinians See Israel's Elimination as Goal

By REUTERS

Filed at 9:19 a.m. ET

JERUSALEM (Reuters) - A majority of Palestinians believe the aim of their 20-month-old uprising should be to eliminate Israel and not just end Israeli occupation in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, an opinion poll released Tuesday showed. ... [...] 9071 21 58_Re: Majority Palestinians See Israel's Elimination as Goal14_Holtzer Family20_carmdave@urim.org.il31_Tue, 11 Jun 2002 19:28:23 +0200486_iso-8859-1 damn straight its discouraging. goes together well with your previous email about the two sentences "If the Arabs......."



Dave



------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 9093 32 58_Re: Majority Palestinians See Israel's Elimination as Goal11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Tue, 11 Jun 2002 12:30:32 -0400372_us-ascii



Holtzer Family wrote:

> damn straight its discouraging. goes together well with your previous email > about the two sentences "If the Arabs......." > > Dave

Hi Dave,

Lisa originally posted those sentences.

I agree this poll adds support for the second of the two sentences. Do you think the first is equally true? [...] 9126 67 64_Re: Poll: Majority Palestinians See Israel's Elimination as Goal12_David Fleiss20_dfleiss@pipeline.com31_Tue, 11 Jun 2002 12:32:42 -0400534_- Mark Twain once said "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics." Here's a recent poll with the opposite result.

David





>From Doni Remba at Peace Now

Once again, Khalil Shikaki's latest survey of Palestinian public opinion refutes right-wing shibboleths:

*A majority of 70% of Palestinians support reconciliation between the Israeli and Palestinian peoples after reaching a peace agreement based on the establishment of a Palestinian state recognized by Israel. [...] 9194 16 64_Re: Poll: Majority Palestinians See Israel's Elimination as Goal0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Tue, 11 Jun 2002 12:33:04 EDT343_US-ASCII Duh!...s

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 9211 26 64_Re: Poll: Majority Palestinians See Israel's Elimination as Goal11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Tue, 11 Jun 2002 12:40:09 -0400591_us-ascii

LiberHawke@aol.com wrote:

> Duh!...s

Actually I found it surprising though not necessarily conclusive (see the Peace Now item from David F.).

Certainly worth more thought that is implied by your response in my view.

Noam

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 9238 36 58_Fw: Majority Palestinians See Israel's Elimination as Goal14_Holtzer Family20_carmdave@urim.org.il31_Tue, 11 Jun 2002 20:35:19 +0200514_iso-8859-1

Noam,

Maybe I've been here too long, but I think that if the Palestinians had no weapons that the violence would stop. Israel has no desire to reconquer the West Bank and Gaza. Why the hell would we want to administer those areas? Besides, we did enough between 67 and now. Where do you think all those roads, schools, hospitals, sewage systems, running water, electricity infrastructure, etc came from? Certainly not Egypt or Jordan who administered those ares from 48 to 67....... [...] 9275 38 69_Re: would the violence stop if the Palestinians laid down their arms?11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Tue, 11 Jun 2002 13:57:47 -0400298_us-ascii

Holtzer Family wrote:

> Noam, > > Maybe I've been here too long, but I think that if the Palestinians had > no weapons that the violence would stop. Israel has no desire to reconquer > the West Bank and Gaza. Why the hell would we want to administer those > areas? ... [...] 9314 21 64_Re: Poll: Majority Palestinians See Israel's Elimination as Goal0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Tue, 11 Jun 2002 14:02:14 EDT415_US-ASCII Noam- don't take it personally- That headliine left me feeling the way I felt when the BIG ANNOUNCEMENT regarding Chandra Levy was that she was murdered! (another "Duh")...The truth is that I am sure not all Palestnians feel the way the poll listed- just as not all Israelis want to capture the world....I don't put much value in polls- You have to always consider the source, and who was polled....s [...] 9336 53 64_Re: Poll: Majority Palestinians See Israel's Elimination as Goal0_15_DebALev@aol.com29_Tue, 11 Jun 2002 16:04:28 EDT410_US-ASCII In a message dated 6/11/2002 2:09:40 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LiberHawke@aol.com writes:



> ....I > don't put much value in polls- You have to always consider the source, and > who was polled....s > >

AND you always have to consider how the questions were phrased, who was doing the asking, how the sample was taken, and especially who was sponsoring (paying for) the poll. [...] 9390 127 35_Re: outside funding and free speech7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Tue, 11 Jun 2002 08:15:50 +0300617_iso-8859-1 but if you are negotiating peace and border changes, demographic changes, etc. you can't show disunity. You are negotiating for peace in formal settings and someone, not in the government, is meeting with the other side, often the same people, with no mandate from the people, and is negotiating the opposite. How can the other side negotiate in good faith when he thinks he can do better down the line with a different government somewhere in the future? The EU is not neutral here -- they are financing the PA openly. pearl ----- Original Message ----- From: Batel Libes [...] 9518 139 35_Re: outside funding and free speech13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Tue, 11 Jun 2002 23:50:24 -0400418_us-ascii Dear Pearl, That's the disadvantage that a democracy has when negotiating with a totalitarian regime. The US has negotiated trade agreements, arms agreements and environmental agreements under one administration that another administration of the other party never signs. Iraq doesn't have that problem and neither does North Korea or Cuba or China or Iran. WHo would you rather be like???? Shalom, Judy [...] 9658 130 38_Soldier Boasts of Destruction in Jenin0_24_purpleroot8@netscape.net31_Wed, 12 Jun 2002 13:48:14 -0400694_iso-8859-1 Greetings. I don't think Jenin should be forgotten, quite yet, and to that end I submit the following article.

S. Perel

>Subject: Soldier Boasts of Destruction in Jenin >> >>-------- >"I made them a stadium in the middle of the camp" >by Z. Yehezkieli. >from "7 Days", the weekend supplement of Yediot >Aharonot Friday (May 31, 2002) >Summarized from indymedia: >http://www.indymedia.org.il/imc/israel/webcast/29399.html > >The weekend supplement of Yediot Aharonot, the largest >newspaper in Israel,devoted its cover interview to a >soldier who played a key role in the repression of >resistance at the Jenin Refugee Camp. Moshe Nissim is >a >40-year-old reserve [...] 9789 251 29_War Talk / India and Pakistan0_24_purpleroot8@netscape.net31_Wed, 12 Jun 2002 13:48:38 -0400728_iso-8859-1 Shloime Perel wrote:

>> War Talk >> >> >-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >> Printed from http://www.thenation.com >> © 2002 The Nation Company, L.P. >> Back to Web View >> >> >> >> >> >-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> COMMENT | Special Report >> >> War Talk >> >> Summer Games With Nuclear Bombs >> >> When India and Pakistan conducted their nuclear >> tests in 1998, even those of us who condemned them >> balked at the hypocrisy of Western nuclear powers. >> Implicit in their denunciation of the tests was the >> notion that blacks cannot be trusted with the Bomb. [...] 10041 178 35_Re: outside funding and free speech7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Thu, 13 Jun 2002 00:34:41 +0300674_iso-8859-1 I think there is a big difference between governments negotiating and between private individuals negotiating with foreign governments. It is one thing when a government decides on a course and then the next government does not honor the decision - that happens all the time everywhere -- and it is another thing altogether when individuals, well intentioned as they may be, start negotiating terms with absolutely no mandate to do so! perl ----- Original Message ----- From: Judith Gelman To: Skolnik Cc: Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2002 6:50 AM Subject: Re: outside funding and free speech [...] 10220 20 26_Machanot and Israeli teens9_Naomi Jay21_naomi_jay@hotmail.com31_Thu, 13 Jun 2002 11:27:45 -0700 10241 33 30_Re: Machanot and Israeli teens0_15_Moshava@aol.com29_Thu, 13 Jun 2002 14:37:13 EDT160_US-ASCII mosh has about half a dozen israeli chanichim coming this summer. each pays according to their ability. we subsidize according to need. tammy registrar 10275 169 20_Re: Ten Commandments0_12_SHX2@aol.com29_Thu, 13 Jun 2002 15:16:15 EDT461_UTF-8 Dear Amnon and Dennis,

Dennis writes: "While my posting is addressed to Amnon, I cordially invite all of those out there to join in the pul-pil - if my participation can be called that." Don’t mind if I do.

Amnon writes: " For instance, Exodus 19:9 announces a dialogue between God and Moses (or an addressed by God to Moses) to be held at Sinai and overheard by the people, for the purpose of making them believe Moses "ever after." [...] 10445 625 58_=?iso-8859-1?Q?=93Confessions_of_a_Bulldozer_Driver=94__?=12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Thu, 13 Jun 2002 23:05:24 +0200581_iso-8859-1 haverim/ot Beyond woe, nearer anger, I read about the madman quoted in “Confessions of a Bulldozer Driver” in Habonet 2262 I survived the War of Liberation and became a teacher. Our son, Oren, fell in the Yom Kippur War. He was my student. This posting is about the transmission of values from one generation to another and about the ethical matrix and cultural contract that binds us more tightly than Isaac’s bonds to his father’s belief system or ought to. The exhausted soldiers who survived the war in ‘73 came stumbling out of their tanks only to be set upon [...] 11071 539 33_Confessions of a Bulldozer Driver12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Thu, 13 Jun 2002 23:20:54 +0200581_iso-8859-1 haverim/ot Beyond woe, nearer anger, I read about the madman quoted in “Confessions of a Bulldozer Driver” in Habonet 2262 I survived the War of Liberation and became a teacher. Our son, Oren, fell in the Yom Kippur War. He was my student. This posting is about the transmission of values from one generation to another and about the ethical matrix and cultural contract that binds us more tightly than Isaac’s bonds to his father’s belief system or ought to. The exhausted soldiers who survived the war in ‘73 came stumbling out of their tanks only to be set upon [...] 11611 19 37_Re: Confessions of a Bulldozer Driver12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Fri, 14 Jun 2002 08:39:51 +0200477_us-ascii Haverot/im I'm sorry for sending the same (long) piece twice. Blame the technology, blame the late hour, what the hell, blame me.

Amnon

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 11631 112 33_show on discovery channel tonight11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Fri, 14 Jun 2002 10:05:16 -0400683_iso-8859-1

Not an endorsement, but it sounds like something to watch and perhaps comment upon afterward?

Noam

+++

June 14, 2002

Being a Spectator at a Dance of Death

By LESLIE CAMHI

hat dialogue of the deaf, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, is given an extensive airing in "Behind the Hatred," a three-part television special tonight on the Discovery Channel. Over three hours, this ambitious and informative documentary offers a broad survey of the failures of leadership that have contributed to the current crisis, along with the region's legacy of disasters, illusions, occupation, assassinations, corruption and genocide. [...] 11744 128 20_the bulldozer driver16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Fri, 14 Jun 2002 10:10:12 -0400520_us-ascii I was disturbed enough by the posting in Habonet 2262, "Confessions of a Bulldozer Driver," that I forwarded the article on to an old friend in Jerusalem, not a Habonim alum, but an American who made aliya more than 20 years ago. He's a Col. in the army reserves, called up now virtually full-time for the past several months. In real life he is an academic. I thought his response to me was germane, interesting and worthwhile. I post exerpts from his note and hope they give some additional perspective. [...] 11873 24 24_Re: the bulldozer driver0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Fri, 14 Jun 2002 10:45:37 EDT556_US-ASCII I was also upset by the posting and I thank Amnon and Elihu for the courage to respond- I didn't have the "facts"- but rather an emotional desire to just scream out with anger- and I know that it would be another justification for my reputation on this venue as an "emotional reactionary." My own feelings about the refusenikim is that - while they have the right to their opinions and a right to express them- I feel that they have obligations to defend and protect the citizens of Israel, and I wonder how many of them have been personally [...] 11898 33 37_Re: show on discovery channel tonight0_15_Marshlf@aol.com29_Fri, 14 Jun 2002 14:26:41 EDT198_US-ASCII i noticed the display ad for this show: "no issue is more confusing. one network and one night will make it all clear." wow--how ambitious-- our problems can all be solved by midnight! lisa 11932 22 40_Re: The 50th Workshop Anniversary in NYC0_17_JackNusan@aol.com29_Fri, 14 Jun 2002 15:16:44 EDT309_US-ASCII Just a note to say that the Habonim/Dror 50th Anniversary of the Workshop in New York City was a blast! Though the numbers (in attendance) may not have been the highest, still from the Israeli dancing to the kumzitz to the talk by Label Fein it was a great success! Mazel Tov to the organizers! [...] 11955 63 69_Excuse my emotioal reactions....Did anyone else see this? (Discovery)0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Sat, 15 Jun 2002 12:55:28 EDT581_US-ASCII I spent three hours yesterday ( actually- 2 hours and 55 minutes) watching what I was hoping would be an intellectual and educational expostion on the Middle East crisis. I should have known form the promos- this would be another media "attempt" at looking fair, but slyly and deceptively painting a one sided picture which, after the public sees it- will undoubtably sway feelings towards the preverbial " plight of the poor Palestinians" while ignoring the basis for many of the Israeli reactions to events: Hour one: The establishment of Israel as a Jewish State: [...] 12019 22 73_Re: Excuse my emotioal reactions....Did anyone else see this? (Discovery)0_15_DebALev@aol.com29_Sat, 15 Jun 2002 13:29:01 EDT582_US-ASCII Susie......I didn't see it, but I'm not at all surprised. I wonder who did their research. What I would like to see is a treatment like this, but with some balance, which I simply don't see these days.

Sigh. Same old same old.

Debbie

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 12042 17 73_Re: Excuse my emotioal reactions....Did anyone else see this? (Discovery)14_Holtzer Family20_carmdave@urim.org.il31_Sat, 15 Jun 2002 21:36:48 +0200413_iso-8859-1 same old, same old = been there, done that, got the frigging t-shirt



------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 12060 16 73_Re: Excuse my emotioal reactions....Did anyone else see this? (Discovery)0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Sat, 15 Jun 2002 14:47:59 EDT377_US-ASCII Please also excuse my typos- I am tired!-s

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 12077 23 73_Re: Excuse my emotioal reactions....Did anyone else see this? (Discovery)0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Sat, 15 Jun 2002 15:10:02 EDT320_US-ASCII I watched. It was lousy and a half. Superficial, slanted, repetitive and dedicated to the principal of equivalence. Like so many other broadcasts it featured the words of the various players without analysis, so lies and slants and unexposed. I doubt it did great harm, but it certainly was of no benefit. [...] 12101 17 73_Re: Excuse my emotioal reactions....Did anyone else see this? (Discovery)0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Sat, 15 Jun 2002 15:31:57 EDT487_US-ASCII Thanks dennis- glad I was not the opnly one pissed off and disappointed....I am usually accused of being the emotional Carol Burnett of politics!--susie

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 12119 183 42_Haim Weiss -- Refuznik - A mission too far0_24_purpleroot8@netscape.net31_Sat, 15 Jun 2002 15:32:38 -0400483_iso-8859-1 Thanks, Amnon, for your detailed essay on S. Yizhar (Yizhar Smilansky). I assume you meant to say that the self-reported, destroy-everything-in-my-way bulldozing by a drunk reservist, in Jenin (to my mind, an atrocity) raises issues which are not exactly new and have been explored by S. Yizhar. The resrvist in question, according to his own story, is very likely to have demolished homes with people inside. His story bears re-reading, and so I will send it again. [...] 12303 126 23_Resent Article on Jenin0_24_purpleroot8@netscape.net31_Sat, 15 Jun 2002 15:39:17 -0400439_iso-8859-1 I'm sorry to be sending a second time but am doing it should anyone want to refer to it vis-a-vis the email I just sent.



Subject: Soldier Boasts of Destruction in Jenin

"I made them a stadium in the middle of the camp" by Z. Yehezkieli. from "7 Days", the weekend supplement of Yediot Aharonot Friday (May 31, 2002) Summarized from indymedia: http://www.indymedia.org.il/imc/israel/webcast/29399.html [...] 12430 138 34_FYI: Israel Women's Network Update0_15_DebALev@aol.com29_Sat, 15 Jun 2002 17:41:53 EDT696_UTF-8 SRAEL WOMEN'S NETWORK PRESS UPDATE - MAY 23, 2002 An e-bulletin about women in Israel and the activities of the Israel Women's Network +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ This article, which appeared in today's Ha'aretz newspaper (in English), documents the growing trend of illegally firing pregnant women and then seeking retroactive government approval. IWN has been leading the efforts to prevent this retroactive approval and to strengthen the rights of working women. As a result of the current economic climate in Israel, more and more companies are downsizing and cutting staff. Women, and especially pregnant women, seem to be the first fired. In response [...] 12569 87 33_Moshe Kurdi: the bulldozer driver7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Sun, 16 Jun 2002 01:17:27 +0300568_windows-1255 I was appalled to read the "interview" with Moshe Kurdi, but fortunately my son, who fought in Jenin, came for shabbat and when I asked him about the article, he answered: "The Kurdi. He's a real nut case." Yossi told me that nobody moved without officers' consent -- the D9 driver was allowed to work only under strict orders, and much of what the driver said sounded more like boasting than actual fact. Yossi said the driver was usually drunk, and they had a very difficult time with him -- he endangered the Israeli soldiers more than he did any [...] 12657 26 14_Sue's Emotions21_Tsippi (Frances) Rudy16_tsippi@attbi.com31_Sat, 15 Jun 2002 19:29:09 -0700409_us-ascii Dear Sue,

I am sorry you (and no doubt plenty of others on Habonet) wasted those three hours instead of reading a nice chunk of a good book. I chose not to watch because I prejudged that this program would be a biased piece of crap and wanted to spare my poor body--and soul--the rapid surges in blood pressure it would no doubt suffer; instead I caught up on Law and Order and Farscape! [...] 12684 29 18_Re: Sue's Emotions0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com29_Sun, 16 Jun 2002 01:31:21 EDT149_US-ASCII Did anyone else watch the show? If I remember correctly, Sue had a similar response to the 60 minutes piece which I thought was pretty good. 12714 32 18_Re: Sue's Emotions11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Sun, 16 Jun 2002 08:46:00 -0400320_us-ascii Richardrdsmith@aol.com wrote:

> Did anyone else watch the show? If I remember correctly, Sue had a similar response to the 60 minutes piece which I thought was pretty good.

Not yet. I taped it and will get to it as time permits. You are welcome to stop by and borrow it sometime if you wish. [...] 12747 28 18_Re: Sue's Emotions0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Sun, 16 Jun 2002 09:11:33 EDT435_US-ASCII Richard and Noam,

I watched. I agree with Sue and said so in an earlier posting. see below.



*I watched. It was lousy and a half. Superficial, slanted, repetitive and dedicated to the principal of equivalence. Like so many other broadcasts it featured the words of the various players without analysis, so lies and slants are unexposed. I doubt it did great harm, but it certainly was of no benefit. [...] 12776 31 47_Re: Sue's Emotions - no need to repeat yourself11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Sun, 16 Jun 2002 10:13:27 -0400407_us-ascii



DLerner569@aol.com wrote:

> Richard and Noam, > > I watched. I agree with Sue and said so in an earlier posting. see below.

Thanks Dennis. I wish you and Shloime and others would trust that we actually read what you write and that once is enough.

Anyone who misses something on habonet can visit the archive at http://www.shamash.org/listarchives/habonet/ [...] 12808 17 18_Re: Sue's Emotions0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Sun, 16 Jun 2002 11:16:53 EDT474_US-ASCII Richard- Dennis watched it and had the same response-- and I would apprecite it if when you talk "about me"- remember I am here....:).....s

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 12826 30 67_Re: Sue's Emotions - no need to repeat yourself-Apparently there is0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Sun, 16 Jun 2002 11:27:06 EDT519_US-ASCII Appraently there IS a need to repeat...- since Richard obviously did not read Dennis' post- and it seems Dennis was the only other person who took the time to watch this piece... By the way- I don't mind if people start to stereotype me- I feel I have the right to my opinions and if I feel the media is being slanted or biased, I feel I have the right to voice that and not be branded as an "Arik Sharon"- the truth is, I have found very little public media that has been fair- even if they are "trying" [...] 12857 163 53_Fwd: ACTION: Alan Keyes NOT with MSNBC for next year!0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Sun, 16 Jun 2002 12:33:30 EDT606_US-ASCII





> Standwithus has just confirmed (with Alan Keyes directly) that his show > has NOT been picked up with MSNBC for next season. This is an important, > major shame, and we would like to launch a calling campaign... please, > take the time to call the MSNBC studeos: > Write to: world@msnbc.com > But much better, asap... leave a message re. your dissatisfaction at > 201-583-5000 > Please send this to your Jewish and Christian pro-Israel communities. > Together, we can work to make them change their minds. > Thank you for your immediate attention to this problem. > [...] 13021 56 18_Re: Sue's Emotions0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com29_Sun, 16 Jun 2002 12:52:18 EDT584_US-ASCII In a message dated 6/16/02 11:17:41 AM Eastern Daylight Time, LiberHawke@aol.com writes:



> Richard- Dennis watched it and had the same response-- and I would apprecite > it if when you talk "about me"- remember I am here....:).....s >

I remembered you were there. I was not attempting to be insulting at all, was just asking if anyone else saw the show. I don't think it is an insult to point out that though we are both from Baltimore we don't always agree. You had a similar reaction to the 60 Minutes piece which I, and others, thought was very [...] 13078 24 30_Re: Sue's Emotions- To Richard0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Sun, 16 Jun 2002 14:33:43 EDT564_US-ASCII I don't think that being fome Baltimore has anything to do with whether or not weagree- although it does say something about our strong Jewish Communal background....I didn't take it as an insult- but I still say that it is fine you liked the 60 minutes piece- I have the right not to have--I don't even remember much about it now- but I will say that three hours of deceitful presentation (Discover's attempt to have answers to all of the questions)will stay with me for a while...By the way- I missed the last 5 minutes because I fell asleep- what [...] 13103 28 30_Re: Sue's Emotions- To Richard0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com29_Sun, 16 Jun 2002 15:26:47 EDT74_US-ASCII I didn't see it, that is why I asked for other people's opinions. 13132 287 65_[Fwd: Fwd: Overthrow Arafat, End Violence, Democratize Palestine]16_Genevieve Marcus20_drmarcus@pacbell.net31_Sun, 16 Jun 2002 14:10:07 -0700716_us-ascii

I expect every reader will find plenty here to disagree or agree with. And I'm sure few will have seen such aggressively incisive writing on the subject, regardless of point of view.

>Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 02:34:39 -0400 >From: magazine@tikkun.org >Subject: Overthrow Arafat, End Violence, Democratize Palestine >To: gfriend@natlogic.com >X-OriginalArrivalTime: 16 Jun 2002 07:09:12.0290 (UTC) >FILETIME=[B7869C20:01C21504] >X-Loop-Detect: 1 >Status: > >Edward Said is one of the world's most respected Palesitnian >intellectuals. Here he calls for an end to rule by Arafat, an end >to suicidal violence, and a democratization of Palestinian life. >He wrote this for the largest Arabic [...] 13420 17 30_Re: Sue's Emotions- To Richard0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Sun, 16 Jun 2002 17:42:25 EDT424_US-ASCII You need to see it to form your own opinions...I would be interested in what you think..s

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 13438 37 17_Behind the Hatred16_gelman@erols.com16_gelman@erols.com31_Sun, 16 Jun 2002 18:10:48 -0400577_iso-8859-1 Although I started out not watching but inhabiting the same room as my husband who had it on, I ended up watching the last 2 3/4 of the show with considerable interest. When you consider that the audience is primarily people who didn't grow up in a zionist youth movement, didn't live in Israel, don't belong to habonet, probably aren't Jewish and couldn't even necessarily find Israel on a map without a lot of searching, in my opinion, the show did a fairly evenhanded job of covering the history of the conflict and the efforts at peacemaking and the errors [...] 13476 97 30_RE: Sue's Emotions- To Richard11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Sun, 16 Jun 2002 17:03:57 -0700555_US-ASCII Dear Sue, Tzippi, Dennis, Noa, Richard, etc,

The three hour show? It was OK, I guess. I didn't have high expectations, and we were multi-tasking as we monitored it (as opposed to devoting the three hours to actually watching it), so I don't feel I wasted the same amount of precious and irretrievable time that others may have. In my mind, it only failed to live up to its own hype in the same way that Geraldo did when he promised some sort of epifanic revelation in opening up that tomb or whatever it was.... and it came up empty. [...] 13574 18 30_Re: Sue's Emotions- To Richard0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Mon, 17 Jun 2002 09:09:23 EDT385_US-ASCII Steve, Eloquent and compassionate as usual. Dennis

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 13593 32 5_MSNBC16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Mon, 17 Jun 2002 11:27:49 -0400611_us-ascii MSNBC may not be renewing Alan Keyes for next year. But they're also dropping "The News with Brian Williams." The Williams show will be shown exclusively on CNBC. The Microsoft/NBC combo brass aren't dropping Keyes and Williams for editorial reasons. The problem is that no one's watching MSNBC. Fox News Channel is the big ratings winner in cable "news" programming, so the MSNBC bosses are trying to figure out how to rejigger their programming to attract higher viewership. (Those of us who worry about so-called "media bias" will be delighted to know that CNN's viewership is almost as low as [...] 13626 116 35_Peres's answer to Sharon on the NYT13_Yuval Warshai16_warshais@tir.com31_Mon, 17 Jun 2002 15:45:51 -0400550_iso-8859-1 Very sophisticated and intelligent thinking, in my view. Which is not surprising in the least. ___ |Y| ^^^

----- Copyright 2002 The New York Times Company -----

June 16, 2002

Why Security Must Be Globalized

By SHIMON PERES

JERUSALEM - Security strategy is now becoming globalized, in much the way the world's economy has become globalized. Ever since economies changed from being dependent upon land to being predicated on knowledge and information, the world's political borders have been blurred. [...] 13743 26 15_For Sam Flesher0_17_JackNusan@aol.com29_Tue, 18 Jun 2002 00:04:19 EDT391_US-ASCII Sam Flesher I understand needs a refuah shlemah. He should be in our prayers. He came down sick in New York on the way to the NY Kumzitz. But I need verification of details.

Cheers!

Jack Nusan Porter

P.S. I will be on "vacation" for a few weeks visiting my mom and sis in Minneapolis and I'm also going to Milwaukee and chicago for a few weeks. Au revoir! [...] 13770 63 11_oreo barbie29_Richard Steacy & Esther Cohen22_richard.steacy@gte.net31_Mon, 17 Jun 2002 22:38:21 -0400329_iso-8859-1 has anyone seen this? (it was in the sunday 6/16/2002 cvs advertising circular) -- Mattel has come up with an Oreo Barbie! Despite its name, it appears at a glance to be just a plain old Barbie, i guess, with a purse shaped like an oreo cookie and other product advertising. But, jeez! How could they possibly... [...] 13834 1451 51_Separating Spiritual and Political, He Pays a Price16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Tue, 18 Jun 2002 11:18:40 -0400524_us-ascii The following profile of Rabbi Henry Siegman appeared in the New York Times a few days ago. What is rather more surprising (pleasantly, I hope) is that the html for this piece was sent out today in the daily email news blurb of the Conference of Presidents of American Jewish Organizations. The Presidents Conference, PC, is generally pretty right-wing in its broad pronouncements. It is surprising that this was included at all in the PC's email selection of news pieces. Maybe it's a slow news day for them? [...] 15286 101 15_RE: oreo barbie11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Tue, 18 Jun 2002 09:14:26 -0700648_iso-8859-1 Esther

What don't you get? How could they possibly commercialize Barbie?

Steve Klein -----Original Message----- From: owner-habonet@shamash.org [mailto:owner-habonet@shamash.org]On Behalf Of Richard Steacy & Esther Cohen Sent: Monday, June 17, 2002 7:38 PM To: Habonet Subject: oreo barbie



has anyone seen this? (it was in the sunday 6/16/2002 cvs advertising circular) -- Mattel has come up with an Oreo Barbie! Despite its name, it appears at a glance to be just a plain old Barbie, i guess, with a purse shaped like an oreo cookie and other product advertising. But, jeez! How could they possibly... [...] 15388 26 15_RE: oreo barbie20_Naomi Goldberg Honor18_naomijgh@yahoo.com37_Tue, 18 Jun 2002 09:23:22 -0700 (PDT)628_us-ascii Esther--

It could have been worse. Just imagine if it included one of Barbie's African American friends...

Naomi Goldberg Honor

__________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 15415 19 25_who are you calling Oreo?0_18_Rachelbern@aol.com31_Tue, 18 Jun 2002 13:21:55 -0400613_iso-8859-1 Steve,

Perhaps you did not grow up with the same, uh, alternative meaning of the word "Oreo" as Esther and I did-- in Montgomery County, MD public schools in the 1970s, an Oreo was a Black kid who only hung around with White kids and "tried to act White."

Rachel

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 15435 63 29_Re: who are you calling Oreo?0_15_DebALev@aol.com29_Tue, 18 Jun 2002 14:37:34 EDT376_US-ASCII In a message dated 6/18/2002 2:31:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Rachelbern@aol.com writes:



> Perhaps you did not grow up with the same, uh, alternative meaning of the > word "Oreo" as Esther and I did-- in Montgomery County, MD public schools > in the 1970s, an Oreo was a Black kid who only hung around with White kids > and "tried to act White." [...] 15499 17 29_Re: who are you calling Oreo?0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Tue, 18 Jun 2002 18:09:08 EDT402_US-ASCII An Oreo is chocolate on the outside and white on the inside. Dennis

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 15517 40 35_For Anyone in New York this Shabbat0_13_SC523@aol.com29_Wed, 19 Jun 2002 01:29:09 EDT631_US-ASCII Dear Chevreh,

Anyone in New York this Shabbat may be interested in the following (from Aliya):

Aron Trauring, a former New York Upper Westsider who made aliya to Israel 19 years ago, will speak and respond to questions about the Courage To Refuse movement at Congregation Ansche Chesed, West End Avenue and 100th Street (entrance on 100th between West End and Broadway) in the chapel on Shabbat morning, June 22nd, at the conclusion of services (approximately 12:45). His talk has been organized by the West Side Minyan but does not necessarily reflect the political stance of Minyan members. Those who [...] 15558 97 15_RE: oreo barbie11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Wed, 19 Jun 2002 05:30:58 -0700400_iso-8859-1 Esther

I don't get it what is it you don't understand? How could they possibly commercialize Barbie? Is that it? Please explain. (You got a lot of 'splainin' to do, Lucy.) -----Original Message----- From: owner-habonet@shamash.org [mailto:owner-habonet@shamash.org]On Behalf Of Richard Steacy & Esther Cohen Sent: Monday, June 17, 2002 7:38 PM To: Habonet Subject: oreo barbie [...] 15656 235 50_Palestinians against Suicide bombings - Enshallah!0_13_Ezrox@aol.com29_Wed, 19 Jun 2002 13:35:14 EDT567_US-ASCII I first found out about this statement published in Arabic in today's "Al Quds" newspaper from a Palestinian co-worker today. She helped translate it for me and I'm sharing it with you now. But first I need to give a little context.

This statement comes roughly 24 hours after the most deadly Jerusalem bus bomb in months goes off in killing 14 people. I didn't even want to go to work and face my Palestinian staff at the Journal. I've come to expect not to hear any sort of statement of sorrow or condolences from my co-workers. I already knew [...] 15892 112 63_Ze'ev Schiff from Haaretz plus remarks regarding Ezra's posting11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Wed, 19 Jun 2002 13:45:51 -0400482_us-ascii

Regarding Ezra's comments in his note including the statement in Al Quds, I disagree with your interpretation that the only reason the statement gives for opposing "suicide bombings" is strategic. I also read of a lack of humanity in the tactic, as well as a declaration that attacks on civilians increase hatred and make movement toward peaceful coexistance more difficult. If I didn't believe Hanan Ashrawi was an incorrigable liar I'd feel more encouraged. [...] 16005 548 42_The Distinguished Rennert Lecture for 200216_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Wed, 19 Jun 2002 15:18:07 -0400352_UTF-8 Following is the text of a lecture given by columnist Charles Krauthammer in Jerusalem, upon receipt of an honorary degree from Bar Ilan University. His views are hard and perhaps controversial. He frames his arguments quite cogently. They are worth attention, if not agreement.



http://www.biu.ac.il/Spokesman/Krauthammer-text.html 16554 22 54_Re: Palestinians against Suicide bombings - Enshallah!0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Wed, 19 Jun 2002 17:13:30 EDT325_US-ASCII Wording can never be very dramatic when the object is to get a large number of people to agree. Ending the violence for any reason (we've run out of TNT) is good enough for me. When we are not beating each other over the head and killing children and causing mayhem, we can work toward understanding and peace. [...] 16577 28 54_Re: Palestinians against Suicide bombings - Enshallah!0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Wed, 19 Jun 2002 18:12:09 EDT587_US-ASCII

In a message dated 6/20/02 5:14:25 AM, DLerner569@aol.com writes:

<< Wording can never be very dramatic when the object is to get a large number of people to agree. >>

Hi Dennis- I guess I am not sure I agree with this assessment--Just look at Abba Eban's eloquent and very dramatic speeches at the UN when trying to get a lot of politicians to agree- I think it depends on the statement and it's author (s) as to how dramatic- even very general statements can be. The best "wording" is that which gets its point made, considering the audience. Being [...] 16606 187 15_Re: oreo barbie29_Richard Steacy & Esther Cohen22_richard.steacy@gte.net31_Wed, 19 Jun 2002 19:32:44 -0400624_iso-8859-1 hey, desi -

Oreo is a derogatory (killed that spelling, didn't i?) term for a black person who is perceived by others as "acting white." you know, oreos have chocolate cookie outside, white cream filling inside. i guess it's a more current variation on 'uncle tom.'

i still haven't seen anything about this in the media, although yesterday, or perhaps monday, there was an article in the washington post about how insulting "homies" are - they're gumball toys, apparently designed by a mexicano, based on his l.a. barrio upbringing, that represent a cross-section of the barrio - the wino with [...] 16794 128 17_JTA Breaking News0_18_leodie@isdn.net.il31_Wed, 19 Jun 2002 22:42:47 -0400670_iso-8859-1 Following is breaking news from JTA — The Global News Service of the Jewish People. For in-depth coverage of the latest developments affecting Jews all over the world, click: www.jta.org

_____

Palestinian ad calls for end to terror

A newspaper ad backed by 55 prominent Palestinians called for an end to terrorist attacks inside Israel. "We urge those behind military attacks against civilians inside Israel to reconsider their positions and to stop pushing our youth to carry out these attacks, which only result in deepening hatred between the two peoples," the ad in Wednesday´s Al Quds newspaper said. Among [...] 16923 166 48_washingtonpost.com: A Guarantee of More Violence16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Thu, 20 Jun 2002 11:35:37 -0400176_us-ascii In this piece, Charles Krauthammer identifies some realistic and problematic caveats.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A14472-2002Jun19?language=printer 17090 210 42_No More Messianism and No More Tisha Be'av12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Thu, 20 Jun 2002 18:53:19 +0200609_us-ascii Haverim/ot This is for my haver, Sam F. with a heartfelt wish for a refuah shleymah. In Elihu's forward of Charles Krauthammer's address at Bar Ilan U the speaker said: >>I want to talk to you tonight about an important, and I think neglected, aspect of Jewish consciousness, namely Jewish Messianism. Thirty-five years ago today the Six-Day war ended. It seemed like a new era, and I remember some months afterward my rabbi questioned whether we should continue to celebrate Tisha Be'av. Jerusalem had been reunited, the Temple Mount was ours, Israel. The land had been retaken, perhaps we had [...] 17301 100 44_No More Messianism and No More Tisha Be'av 212_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Thu, 20 Jun 2002 21:48:55 +0200344_us-ascii Haverot/im Mea culpa on top of sending a long email on the subject I also left out the end. Oh, what the hell, matayim culpa. Yosef Hayim Yershulami's wind up of his article on the uses of Jewish history returns to the case of Hazaz's Yudka who as you remember didn't have the sharpest mind or most Jewishly conversant equipment. [...] 17402 21 42_Tam- Ma Hu Omer?-- for Amnon please answer0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Thu, 20 Jun 2002 18:35:57 EDT461_US-ASCII I feel like the third son....tam- too simple....I am confused by the argument that we have no history while in the golah, yet, it was those Zionist literati and intellectuals who eventually came back and made the history of the State...it's cultural and spiritual "weltanschaung" ( my favorite word)..What about Herzl and Bialik? What about Peretz and Achad HaAm?...I know where you are going...but I guess I don't know from where you came..susie [...] 17424 29 46_Re: No More Messianism and No More Tisha Be'av0_12_SHX2@aol.com29_Thu, 20 Jun 2002 20:38:22 EDT607_US-ASCII

In a message dated 6/20/02 11:54:20 AM, amriv@netvision.net.il writes:

<< And I say, if there is anything as potent in Zionism as it's commitment to the ordinary it is it's determination to return to history so that Jews could re-enter the family of nations. You take your lumps out there.>>

Seems to me that, among the things "ordinary" members of the"family of nations" do is willingly to seek to conquer, exile and/or kill their neighbors -- whether they want to or not -- rather than be conquered, exiled or killed by their neighbors. I can't think of one that could [...] 17454 58 18_Tam- Ma Hu Omer?--12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Fri, 21 Jun 2002 17:34:40 +0200506_iso-8859-1 Dear Susie You wrote Amnon please answer >I feel like the third son....tam- too simple....I am confused by the argument that we have no history while in the golah, yet, it was those Zionist literati and intellectuals who eventually came back and made the history of the State...it's cultural and spiritual "weltanschaung" ( my favorite word)..What about Herzl and Bialik? What about Peretz and Achad HaAm?...I know where you are going...but I guess I don't know from where you came..susie< [...] 17513 282 40_A Sky Always Heavy On Me: No More Akedah12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Sat, 22 Jun 2002 11:22:06 +0200630_us-ascii Haverim/ot

It is remarkable that the myth of the Akedah -Abraham's binding of Isaac for a sacrifice, arguably the core myth of Judaic civilization, more central than the creation myth or even the revelation at Mt. Sinai, is mentioned only once in the Bible but is so pivotal in both medieval liturgy and modern Hebrew literature. As all other societies, modern Israel, too, needed a constitutive myth which could serve as the undergirding for the renascent people's culture; the matrix for its spiritual identification. When writing about Jewish myths and their provenance in Hebraic culture I do not use the [...] 17796 188 14_Edy Rauch, z"l16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Sat, 22 Jun 2002 08:10:36 -0400609_us-ascii It is with great sorrow that I write to inform people of the death of Dr. Eduardo L. Rauch, prof. of education at the Jewish Theological Seminary. Edy was a seminal figure in the areas of history and philosophy of Jewish education. As the co-director of the Melton Center for Jewish Education and editor of its outstanding publication the Melton Journal, Edy pushed the cutting edge of research in Jewish education. He was among the first to devise Jewish paradigms for investigating both the larger questions of ecology and environment, and the smaller questions of the individual and his soul [...] 17985 178 10_messianism16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Sat, 22 Jun 2002 08:47:33 -0400584_us-ascii Since I'm the guilty party who forwarded the Krauthammer piece, I thought that I'd add to the mix a bit. As it happens, Krauthammer gave up psychiatry when he became a parapalegiac, the result of a tragic auto accident. I leave it to the psychiatrists to analyze what other traumas that accident may have put upon him. Perhaps his skeptical outlook as well? Whatever one thinks of his examples of messianism, clearly the Zionist movement was messianist in a secular sense. That is to say it was a movement of Jews to redeem themselves and bring the messiah--or at least [...] 18164 74 14_Re: messianism0_18_Brianscoop@aol.com29_Sat, 22 Jun 2002 09:27:57 EDT391_US-ASCII Eli says:

>> Whatever one thinks of his examples of messianism, clearly the Zionist movement was messianist in a secular sense. That is to say it was a movement of Jews to redeem themselves and bring the messiah--or at least his era--by their own physical endeavors and works, not merely by study and prayer (though some may have engaged in those endeavors as well.) << [...] 18239 67 29_Mi tam l'ta'am.......To Amnon0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Sat, 22 Jun 2002 10:49:33 EDT619_US-ASCII In a message dated 6/22/2002 5:48:33 AM Pacific Daylight Time, EliD@worldnet.att.net writes:

> But we were never out of history. >

Dearest Amnon- Thank you for your answer- I must clarify the fact that I was not asking "from where you came" in a physical sense- although I can understand its importance. I was reacting to the concept of negating the influence of the gola to the furthering of the role of the Jewish People as fulfilling the return to Israel- and thereby continuing the role of "or lagoyim" or a national (international) reworking of "hagshma atzmit".....But while the words [...] 18307 42 18_Re: Edy Rauch, z"l0_14_KBob24@aol.com29_Sat, 22 Jun 2002 11:01:48 EDT214_US-ASCII Elihu:

Thank you for posting that eloquent tribute to Edy. I have not seem him in many years but have been personally enriched by his "good works" throughout my life.

warm regards,

Ken 18350 37 24_Splendor Bridge- a story0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Sat, 22 Jun 2002 11:26:28 EDT538_US-ASCII A few years ago, I tried to help get Sam's songs heard by some of those stereotypic Hollywood types in the music biz- because I was hoping that some of them might get "covered" ( sung) by some big people like Bette Midler or the "Barb" (Streisand- as she is known out here). Sitting in LA- it meant making some phone calls and driving for hours to a15 minute meeting. I have "friends who are friends"- and so I did get a meeting with the agent-manager-lawyer of some big names. His office was on the 10th floor of the Flynt [...] 18388 30 28_Re: Splendor Bridge- a story0_15_Marshlf@aol.com29_Sun, 23 Jun 2002 10:00:50 EDT46_US-ASCII so where/how can i hear it, too? lisa 18419 30 28_Re: Splendor Bridge- a story11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Sun, 23 Jun 2002 10:13:46 -0400381_us-ascii



Marshlf@aol.com wrote:

> so where/how can i hear it, too? > lisa

Hi Lisa,

You can try http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/236/grappa.html

I suspect Sam won't mind if I lend you my copy - especially if it leads you to buy a few Grappa CDs. If only you were actually coming to the game next week instead of going to the beach... [...] 18450 17 28_Re: Splendor Bridge- a story0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Sun, 23 Jun 2002 13:24:13 EDT481_US-ASCII You can email Sam at : smfgrappa@aol.com and ask how to buy his cd....(It is on the original "Grappa" cd)....You may be able to buy it online..sue

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 18468 586 30_A Profound Piece from Ha'aretz0_13_SC523@aol.com29_Mon, 24 Jun 2002 01:08:42 EDT610_US-ASCII A near-death experience By Vered Levy-Barzilai Ha'aretz English Editon June 22, 2002

While her co-bomber exploded himself in Rishon Letzion, Arin Ahmed was to wait nearby for the panicky people who would flee toward her, then detonate her bomb. Like Rasan who was to blow himself up in Tel Aviv, she never went through with her mission. Last week, the two were paid a visit in jail by none other than Defense Minister Benjamin Ben-Eliezer A young female Palestinian terrorist sits in a detention room opposite the Israeli defense minister and cries. "What will happen to me now?" she asks [...] 19055 147 62_Jewish Environmental bike ride- Habonim alumni can form a team14_Jessica Silver26_foundation@habonimdror.org31_Mon, 24 Jun 2002 11:44:59 -0400657_iso-8859-1 The information below is from Hazon, about their NY Jewish Environmental bike ride. They would love to have a Habonim alumni team participate in the ride. Forming a team allows people to train and fundraise together. Teams can register at www.hazon.org.

You’re invited! Hazon’s 2nd annual New York Jewish Environmental Bike Ride and Shabbaton (Shabbat retreat) will be October 11-14, 2002 over Columbus Day weekend! The optional Shabbaton will be October 11-12 at Camp Sprout Lake near Poughkeepsie. The Ride itself will be Sunday - Monday, October 13-14, beginning at Sprout Lake and heading down the beautiful Hudson Valley, ending [...] 19203 100 40_FW: open at work so you can pass this on11_Jamie Levin22_mazkir@habonimdror.org31_Mon, 24 Jun 2002 13:01:06 -0400559_iso-8859-1

-----Original Message----- From: Paul Parter [mailto:paul@quiq.com] Sent: Mon, June 17, 2002 2:57 PM To: Jamie Levin Subject: FW: open at work so you can pass this on



Jamie,

Could you please post the forwarded email message to Habonet and any other email groups that you have access too.

thanks

Paul Parter -------------------------------------------------------- General Manager of Product Development - QUIQ Inc. 25 Kessel Court - Suite 201 Madison, WI 53711 Phone: 608-230-7213 Fax: 608-230-7200 [...] 19304 69 29_Reentering History and Horani12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Mon, 24 Jun 2002 21:47:03 +0200573_us-ascii Elihu, 1.You are right, it is scary. Fortunately for us I think that the Arabs are their own worst enmeis. I figure we have another century before they can a) get their act together or b) let the sheer weight of demography do their work for them. 2. On Reentering History: Hourani (again says it better than me.) " History has given to the Arab nation in the 20th century a unique chance to return to the community of living creative forces in the world: a conjunction of international affairs which made possible the independence of all our territories; and [...] 19374 61 5_virus9_Mark Seal21_mogzeal@earthlink.net31_Mon, 24 Jun 2002 16:13:55 -0400383_iso-8859-1 This message is being sent to my entire Address Book. My computer has been infected by the KLEZ virus, filename: W32/Klez.h@mm.

If you see a message from me that includes an attachment and extols the virtues of some program or feature, delete w/o opening.

Needless to say, I regret any inconvenience that this development may have inadvertently caused. [...] 19436 125 10_messianism0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Mon, 24 Jun 2002 19:19:16 EDT593_UTF-8 I want to engage in the conversation about Zionism and Messianism from a personal point of view.

I confess that the idea of a Messiah in Judaism never found much favor with me. I don't criticize Maimonides without great trepidation. But, with trepidation let me say:

A Messiah is either a person (warrior/ruler) who comes to make things perfect out of his (or her) own grace or someone sent by God to announce the end of the days of our efforts to achieve perfection (because at last we have or alternatively, because God is bored/disgusted with us and our persistent [...] 19562 22 37_Splendor Bridge and Sam Flesher's CDs11_Sam Bergman22_bergman@mindspring.com31_Tue, 25 Jun 2002 06:50:53 -0400393_us-ascii Hi Everyone. Just spent the weekend with Sam Flesher. As he is hospitalized to start his chemotherapy, he won't be able to respond to your emails/phone calls for a while. His son Amir is taking over the distribution of Sam's CDs (Effortlessly, with "Splendor Bridge" and others). Contact him at AmirFlesher@hotmail.com. We hope Sam will be back online in about 2 weeks... Sam B. [...] 19585 44 41_Looking for a Jewish Job in New York City13_Kathee Lavine26_holycowfoods@earthlink.net31_Tue, 25 Jun 2002 15:03:46 -0700588_us-ascii I am posting this for a friend from my shul. She's wonderful!



Hello Kathee- Thank you for offering to spread the word. Irene and I are planning on moving to NYC in the Fall, preferably after the High Holidays, although we are flexible. I am looking for a full or part-time job in the City. I would love to work for a Jewish business or organization however, I'm open to anything interesting. I have many years experience running my own music agency doing everything from accounting to sales to planning tours. As you know, the small business owner wears many [...] 19630 29 33_New Web Site: www.habonimdror.org11_Jamie Levin22_mazkir@habonimdror.org31_Wed, 26 Jun 2002 11:36:33 -0400698_iso-8859-1 Check out our newly redesigned web site at www.habonimdror.org!

Aleh V'Hagshem,

Jamie Levin Mazkir Tnua Habonim Dror North America

(p) 212-255-1796 (f) 212-929-3459 114 W. 26th St. #1004 NY, NY. 10001

Check out the Virtual Cheder Chinuch, an interactive online database of educational resources. click 'peulot' at www.habonimdror.org

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 19660 17 43_For Elihu- or anyonew who knows "standbyme"0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Wed, 26 Jun 2002 14:13:13 EDT423_US-ASCII Hi- who is behind www.standwithus.com?--Anyone who knows- can you let me now? Thanks sue

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 19678 18 25_OOOPS!- "standwithus.com"0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Wed, 26 Jun 2002 15:21:29 EDT509_US-ASCII Sorry- I was having a senior moment and was thinking of the film!!!- So if anyone knows who the people are who are behind "standwithus" I would appreciate knowing- thanks sue

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 19697 236 39_Hannah and Abraham and Muslim Shahids *12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Wed, 26 Jun 2002 22:26:30 +0200580_us-ascii Haverot/im, This is a secular expectation of refuah shleima for my buddy Sam. Anyone else can read it too. A few days ago I noted that: < It is remarkable that the myth of the Akedah -Abraham's binding of Isaac for a sacrifice, arguably the core myth of Judaic civilization, more central than the creation myth or even the revelation at Mt. Sinai, is mentioned only once in the Bible but is so pivotal in both medieval liturgy and modern Hebrew literature.> Almost as remarkable is the wide ranging almost obsessive treatment that the Akedah has merited in the Oral [...] 19934 614 43_Re: Hannah and Abraham and Muslim Shahids *0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Wed, 26 Jun 2002 19:24:27 EDT601_US-ASCII Dear Amnon and Sam,

I cannot speak to residents of the settlements. I very much want to speak to the Akidah. With respect to martyrdom I offer the attach speech delivered by the associate dean of the Maxwell School here in Syracuse. The linkage between martyrdom and patriotism is made clear. On the akidah itself, I have written here before that the akidah seems clearly a direct demonstration that God does not want human sacrifice to God. I am not familiar with the circumstances in which Hannah "offered" her children, I am familiar (first from your reading of Josephus) with [...] 20549 34 43_Re: Hannah and Abraham and Muslim Shahids *0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Wed, 26 Jun 2002 19:40:26 EDT503_US-ASCII It occurs to me that the Akidah is also, as often noted, about the complete willingness to be subject to God's instruction. The difference is between the willingness to make even the greatest sacrifice for God, and message from God that God does not want human sacrifice, and as the commentary Amnon quoted, not even a drop of human blood, and God then gives direction regarding an animal sacrifice. In the historical context of the biblical time, this is a radical and departing message. [...] 20584 36 43_RE: Hannah and Abraham and Muslim Shahids *12_Fine, Sharon14_FineS@MLHS.ORG31_Wed, 26 Jun 2002 22:45:31 -0400567_- There was a piece on the radio a few weeks ago about people living in the settlements who are trapped there for financial reasons. They bought there because of the huge subsidies, but they do have a mortgage. They can't sell their homes because no one in their right mind will buy there now. They can't move across the green line because they can't afford a mortgage plus rent. Does anyone have a concept of what proportion of settlers fall into this category? Wouldn't the solution for these people be for the government to now help them with their financial [...] 20621 78 41_RE: Hannah and Abraham and Muslim Shahids12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Thu, 27 Jun 2002 22:22:21 +0200581_us-ascii Sharon, the voice pragmatism Sharon. Here I was pushing Freud and there you come in with Marx. You wrote about < people living in the settlements who are trapped there for financial reasons. They bought there because of the huge subsidies, but they do have a mortgage. They can't sell their homes because no one in their right mind will buy there now. They can't move across the green line because they can't afford a mortgage plus rent. Does anyone have a concept of what proportion of settlers fall into this category? Wouldn't the solution for these people be for [...] 20700 78 54_Can Arabs build a normal political order?/ Fouad Ajami11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org31_Thu, 27 Jun 2002 14:27:40 -0500631_us-ascii MIDEAST CROSSROADS

Palestine's Deliverance Can the Arabs build a normal political order?

BY FOUAD AJAMI Thursday, June 27, 2002 12:01 a.m. EDT

The Palestinians are now truly at the crossroads: President Bush has held out to them the prospect of political deliverance--a break with their maximalist history, a chance to step back from the brink and to walk away from this terrible war of terror that they are destined to lose. For all the false consolations of this cult of "martyrdom" that has taken hold in their world, the Palestinians must know that the failure that has stalked their history [...] 20779 143 60_Avi's ( Mine and Dov's oldest son) take on his upcoming trip0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Thu, 27 Jun 2002 17:08:35 EDT593_UTF-8 I'm Going….

By Avi Liberman

I'm going. "Are you crazy!? It's a war zone over there!" someone from Group A screamed. It's amusing enough trying to remain a committed Jew in the entertainment industry. It's even more hysterical listening to people's responses when I tell them I'm going to Israel this summer. I have been doing stand-up comedy and acting for about eight years and the responses I get from the comics are expected. "Where's your next gig, Kabul?" I laugh knowing that it would be almost impossible to explain it to them. I'm going. They know that I am [...] 20923 37 12_Life Support9_Norm Kane19_normk@earthlink.net31_Thu, 27 Jun 2002 20:07:26 -0700476_us-ascii Gilboa needs your help! If you live in the Los Angeles area and would like to get involved with the movement again please don't hesitate. Everyone who is working to keep the camp alive is a volunteer. We have almost no money. We share our shaliach with the Bureau of Jewish Education. Adults are volunteering to spend their vacation time at camp to provide management and adult supervision. The LZA gives some support, but we are off the radar scope of Na'amat. [...] 20961 169 60_Avi's ( Mine and Dov's oldest son) take on his upcoming trip0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Thu, 27 Jun 2002 23:56:44 EDT77_US-ASCII Please forgive me if this is second time- I somehow got it back..sue 21131 43 13_Kibbutz Gezer13_avi rosenberg16_avi@gezer.org.il31_Fri, 28 Jun 2002 10:41:18 +0200370_us-ascii I've actually been quite satisfied with the changes on kibbutz (I guess it's okay as long as you have a job), but after reading this article I'm kind of depressed. Why do they keep on picking on us? http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/A/JPArticle/Full&cid=1023716559987

Avi Rosenberg Cybermedia Web Design and Hosting Tel: 972-8-9204075 21175 29 17_Re: Kibbutz Gezer0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Fri, 28 Jun 2002 10:36:10 EDT569_US-ASCII Avi- I don't think this is "picking on you"- but rather an expositioon on the changes going on on Gezer and Gesher HaZiv- and other places which have had to face realities of economic and social changes--The article is balanced with positive and negative statements- and a little bit of hope. The changes in the kibbutz system is news; and like one chaver said, the fact that there is flexibility for change is a truth that is a positive force. Look at the synagogue movement and you have the same thing...times change; life goes on; you have to learn to [...] 21205 111 23_Zionism or colonialism?11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Fri, 28 Jun 2002 11:32:13 -0400663_us-ascii

The last few paragraphs, describing letters from some settlement children are especially disturbing. I hope these views are not widespread.

Noam

+++

Friday, June 28, 2002 Tamuz 18, 5762

Zionism or colonialism? By Ze'ev Sternhell

It is generally accepted today that at this stage, the declared primary aim of Jewish settlement in the territories has already been achieved. As this was described by Hanoch Marmari in the heartfelt plea he published here two weeks ago (`You are sitting on the key,' Ha'aretz, June 14), it is the ideological settler who holds the key to our future. And indeed, if settlement [...] 21317 150 17_Re: Kibbutz Gezer13_moshe sheskin24_moshes7@netvision.net.il55_Fri, 28 Jun 2002 11:36:53 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time)432_iso-8859-1 Avi, don't be too depressed. It's inevitable that these changes were going to infringe on kibbutz principles. If it makes you feel any better, just look across the field to Hulda and you'll find another example of "how not to be a kibbutz"

Moshe Sheskin

-------Original Message-------

From: habonet@shamash.org Date: Friday, June 28, 2002 03:47:46 To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: Kibbutz Gezer [...] 21468 28 27_Re: Zionism or colonialism?0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com29_Fri, 28 Jun 2002 17:20:24 EDT35_US-ASCII Noam, where is this from?? 21497 204 27_RE: Zionism or colonialism?11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Sat, 29 Jun 2002 07:17:09 -0700591_us-ascii Dear Noam and Ze'ev

I hope this "reply" does not begin or end sounding like name-calling or condescention. It certainly is not intended to be. But it is a word of caution. Our Jewish educations and backgrounds often push us in the direction of intellectualization. This is not a bad thing. It has often set us apart when a large part of the world around us has seemingly gone crazy. But intellectualization does have its dark side. It can take an issue and remove it from real-life problems, almost akin to laboratory experimentation. Once in the laboratory, then it is [...] 21702 105 17_Re: Kibbutz Gezer13_avi rosenberg16_avi@gezer.org.il31_Sat, 29 Jun 2002 18:26:11 +0200405_us-ascii Sue- Actually, what I mean by being "picked on" is that we seem to have gotten more than our share of publicity over the years. For better or for worse. In my opinion, the article had a slight tendency to emphasize the negative. I think Gezer is far from being in "shambles" although there is a core of dissatisfied people, many of whom are my friends, who would certainly disagree with me. [...] 21808 21 17_Re: Kibbutz Gezer0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Sat, 29 Jun 2002 14:04:00 EDT404_US-ASCII Avi- you have to admit that Gezer's history makes it newsworthy as a bastion of harboring individualism in a socialist atmosphere...Rather than feel you have to defend the negatives- I would stand proud by the positives-- it's a mindset...and to quote an Israeli friend of mine, "Just change your mind"--it may sound simplistic- but when you learn to practice this- it works miracles!--sue [...] 21830 31 17_Re: Gezer article0_15_NEVETS2@aol.com29_Sat, 29 Jun 2002 14:44:30 EDT835_US-ASCII

In a message dated 6/29/02 12:05:42 AM, habonet@shamash.org writes:

<< http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/A/JPArticle/Full&cid= 1023716559987 >>

Avi, shalom

The link didn't work for me. What day did this appear in the Post?

Chaver Steve

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 21862 75 21_Yiddish radio website16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Sat, 29 Jun 2002 23:19:25 -0400382_iso-8859-1 AROUND THE JEWISH WORLD Yiddish Web site based in Brazil streams music to worldwide listeners By Marcus Moraes

RIO DE JANEIRO, Brazil, June 23 (JTA) — “Guib a click, dos is YidishMusic.” This sentence can be heard several times a day from Brazilian electronic engineer Carlos Daniel Kibrit, 46, founder and producer of the 24-hour webcast called YidishMusic. [...] 21938 82 17_Re: Gezer article13_avi rosenberg16_avi@gezer.org.il31_Sun, 30 Jun 2002 07:58:19 +0200652_us-ascii This past Friday edition.



At 14:44 29/06/02 -0400, you wrote:

>In a message dated 6/29/02 12:05:42 AM, habonet@shamash.org writes: > ><< HREF="http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/A/JPArticle/Full& >cid=1023716559987"> >http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/A/JPArticle/Full&cid= >HREF="http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/A/JPArticle/Full& >cid=1023716559987">1023716559987 >> > >Avi, shalom > >The link didn't work for me. What day did this appear in the Post? > >Chaver Steve >

Avi Rosenberg Cybermedia Web Design and Hosting Tel: 972-8-9204075 22021 21 27_Re: Zionism or colonialism?11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Sun, 30 Jun 2002 16:08:57 -0400495_us-ascii It was from the Friday edition of Haaretz. Sorry the attribution was not more complete.

Richardrdsmith@aol.com wrote:

> Noam, where is this from??

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 22043 76 27_Re: Zionism or colonialism?11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Sun, 30 Jun 2002 16:17:58 -0400316_us-ascii Dear Steve,

Ze'ev writes for (or at least to) Haaretz, so I doubt he is reading your words.

Perhaps I am lacking in the intellect department, but your "reply" sounds mostly like something completely disconnected to what I sent to the list, so I'm not sure why you are directing it to me. [...] 22120 190 41_=?iso-8859-1?B?5PLh+OQ6IHZpbmRpY2F0aW9u?=8_ericmoli25_ericmoli@netvision.net.il31_Sun, 30 Jun 2002 23:34:07 +0200798_iso-8859-1 Hi Hevra,

Please read the following letter and then put your "thinking" hats on.

Shalom Rav, Mollie Marx ----- Original Message ----- From: Pnina Some To: Helen & Lionel Koven ; Connie Campbell ; Mollie Eric Marx ; I D Oiring ; Moishe Murray Oiring ; Rochelle Hoffer ; Rafi M Some ; Roie Some ; Roni E Some ; Dan Van Leeuwan ; Charlie Kalech ; Schwager Sema ; Dena Satinoff ; Yaacov Beeri Sent: Saturday, June 29, 2002 6:12 PM Subject: Fw: vindication [...] 22311 21 7_Re: Sam0_15_AvivaMT@aol.com29_Sun, 30 Jun 2002 22:36:52 EDT407_US-ASCII Sam- I feel as if I'm missing some key information about Sam. I saw a posting a couple of weeks ago from Jack Porter saying that Sam got "sick" on the way to the Workshop reunion and now your posting about Sam's hospitalization for chemotherapy. If you are free to fill in, please do. At least, please send me his address in the hospital if he remains there and his home address. Aviva Tauman [...] 22333 16 10_No Subject0_15_AvivaMT@aol.com29_Sun, 30 Jun 2002 22:39:13 EDT386_US-ASCII Sorry that last posting re Sam was for Sam Bergman.

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------=