1 SHAMASH.ORG /usr/www/wwwhc/listserv/archives/habonet May 2002 2 379 10_Jenin Lies12_Doug Greener25_ddwgreen@netvision.net.il31_Wed, 01 May 2002 07:35:22 +0300546_windows-1255 HonestReporting Communique 30 April 2002

"JENIN LIES"

* * *

Dear HonestReporting Member,

International pressure is building for Israel to grant entry to a UN investigative mission to Jenin. The mission's current composition and lack of a clear mandate lead some to conclude that it may result in a kangaroo court judgment against Israel. A Washington Post editorial spoke of the "unbalanced mission to Jenin" (April 26), and repeated Israel's concerns "about the mission's fairness and objectivity." [...] 382 162 23_Watch Out for Illusions0_20_Barrygrushkin@cs.com28_Wed, 1 May 2002 01:37:50 EDT513_US-ASCII

An Open Letter to President Bush - Watch Out for Illusions

Please do not sacrifice Israel by letting it be a guinea pig in a misbegotten and illusionary experiment of trying to pull out of nowhere an Arab democracy in the territories. The history in the region is clear. Peoples' movements in the Arab Middle East have always been dangerous and radical - Algeria, Jordan and Saudi Arabia are just examples of many places were the undertones point to a disaster. Iran is what you get. [...] 545 61 29_Power Point on Present Crisis9_yigalsela18_ysela@inter.net.il30_Wed, 1 May 2002 14:47:17 +0200369_windows-1255 If anyone would like to receive a power point display prepared by a group of Brazilian volunteers based on information gathered from the media (CNN, Israeli and Arabic) which places the present crisis in a proper perspective please contact me and I will forward it (virus free). It is suitable either for private of public use. (Size approx. 1/2 mg.) [...] 607 134 15_Re: settlements9_R. Shultz18_lzac@securenet.net30_Wed, 1 May 2002 07:59:00 -0400603_iso-8859-1 Elihu Davison wrote . In Habonet 2222, Reuven Shultz wrote that in 1967 Israel occupied land outside its mandate. Wrong again, Reuven. The pre-June 4, 1976 lines weren't borders, but cease-fire lines from 1948. (It's tantalizing to think that if the 1948 war had lasted for another few weeks, Israel would have finished conquering all of the Jerusalem area as well as the Gaza strip. What happened, in fact, was that the lines merely reflected where troops happened to be when the UN finally got a cease-fire arranged. Of course, one could suggest (is this what you mean?) that Israel's [...] 742 196 25_Re: machanot and politics17_Rena Cheskis-Gold25_rena@dem-perspectives.com31_Wed, 01 May 2002 09:22:25 -0400502_us-ascii Dear all, I have not been involved in Machaneh politics for almost 25 years, or even general Habonim politics. But I am involved with Jewish education,

so let me comment on what the machanot should be teaching kids this summer (a question from Tuesday's Habonet).

There are a variety of political stances about the matzav in Israel today. Even on this list, there are many who are clearly in favor of the current gov't and many who are clearly against. Most of us, I think, [...] 939 157 25_Re: machanot and politics19_Orit Lowy Chicherio16_oritil@yahoo.com36_Wed, 1 May 2002 06:45:43 -0700 (PDT)575_us-ascii Kol hakavod, Rena. I would love for my children to learn at machaneh all the history and current state of affairs that I feel inadequate to teach them. Much of the Israeli history I am familiar with was learned at camp. Orit

--- Rena Cheskis-Gold wrote: > Dear all, > I have not been involved in Machaneh politics > for almost 25 years, or > even general Habonim politics. But I am > involved with Jewish education, > > so let me comment on what the machanot should > be teaching kids this > summer (a question from Tuesday's [...] 1097 73 46_Re: Settlements are an obstacle to peace??????9_R. Shultz18_lzac@securenet.net30_Wed, 1 May 2002 08:02:47 -0400446_iso-8859-1 Noam Stopak wrote:

> Hi Reuven, > > That may be your assumption/interpretation/whatever, but > I don't think that is what Israel agreed to, or even what the > various UN Security Council resolutions call for. I agree > that many of the settlements do not fall within anything but > the most expansive interpretation of the "secure borders" > that the resolutions mention. > UN Security Council Resolution November 22, 1967 [...] 1171 303 46_Re: Settlements are an obstacle to peace??????9_R. Shultz18_lzac@securenet.net30_Wed, 1 May 2002 10:09:01 -0400359_iso-8859-1 Noam Stopak wrote:

> I hope you recall that there were many things that the > Palestinians undertook in exchange for this agreement to give > up the land which Jordon and Egypt occupied in 1948. > Among these were a renunciation of violence and an end to > incitement. Are you arguing that either of these were pursued > in good faith? [...] 1475 58 58_What did Habonim teach me? (was Re: machanot and politics)0_18_Brianscoop@aol.com28_Wed, 1 May 2002 10:17:16 EDT319_US-ASCII One thing I learned in Habonim is that few things are more disputed than the "facts." As I wrote a while back, history is written by the victors. And since in this case, it is unlikely there will ever be a complete and clear victor, it is highly likely there will always be two histories of the conflict. [...] 1534 50 62_Re: What did Habonim teach me? (was Re: machanot and politics)11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Wed, 01 May 2002 10:29:32 -0400586_us-ascii I agree with Brian that "facts" are sometimes hard things to pin down (even something as simple as the spelling of "Labor Zionist" is in dispute :-), and also that the important thing I learned from Habonim was to examine issues from more than one perspective in order to gain additional insights and to think critically. That said, I think there are some basic facts which are not in dispute and that an understanding of the well established historical facts is essential to thinking about the issues. Sadly, it does not seem that people are learning the facts anywhere. [...] 1585 81 25_Virtual Tour of Bethlehem11_Andy Alpern25_alps@golemproductions.com31_Wed, 01 May 2002 12:32:25 -0400450_US-ASCII Greetings! I invite you to visit the following section of israelVR.com for a virtual tour of Bethlehem, including a panorama of Manger Square.

http://www.israelvr.com/bl_departure.html

This site was created during more peaceful times and was shot in the exact spot where the current siege is taking place.

Peace, Andy Alpern Executive Director, israelVR.com

When reality is too much..... http://israelVR.com [...] 1667 55 14_Chinuch, again17_Rena Cheskis-Gold25_rena@dem-perspectives.com31_Wed, 01 May 2002 14:54:41 -0400350_us-ascii Another thought about chinuch in the machanot:

Someone reminded me that even 'facts' have bias. Perhaps I'm arguing for teaching with a wider perspective instead of a deeper understanding of (one side) of an issue. For example, I think my next lesson to my quasi-Hebrew School class will be understanding who uses 'west bank' or [...] 1723 829 20_Re: workshop reunion14_Jessica Silver26_foundation@habonimdror.org30_Wed, 1 May 2002 17:24:34 -0400652_iso-8859-1 For Aviva and anyone else who had trouble opening the attachments for the Workshop anniversary events. I am pasting in all the info. The spacing may be off due to cutting and pasting, but you get the idea.

March 2002

Dear Friend,

Today it is conventional wisdom that an Israel educational experience is one of the most significant instrumentalities for countering assimilation and alienation while generating aliyah and Jewish communal participation. Fifty years ago and more the situation was quite different. American and Canadian Jews were still getting used to the very idea of a sovereign state of Israel, let [...] 2553 77 69_Please sign petition(s) re: academic and medical boycotts ofIsrael...11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org30_Wed, 1 May 2002 18:01:44 -0500721_us-ascii

>>A petition against anti-Israeli boycott calls >>> >>>Preliminary comments: A number of petitions calling for a European >>>boycott of research and cultural links with Israel have been >>>circulated recently among European professors and researchers. >>>Several leading professors at American universities (at the initial >>>stage a group of mathematicians at the University of Chicago) have >>>initiated the following response to the boycott calls. >>> >>>WE ARE CONCERNED >>> >>>The nation of Israel is going through a difficult time. Its very >>>existence is being targeted by daily murderous terrorist attacks. >>>Hundreds of innocent people, women and children have been killed by >>>homicide [...] 2631 64 16_Sylvio Hoskovich9_yigalsela18_ysela@inter.net.il30_Thu, 2 May 2002 14:46:17 +0200325_windows-1255 I am writing on behalf of the above who claims that he wrote to be included in Habonet listserve but hasn't received any reply yet. Sylvio is the present World Secretary of Habonim Dror. He would like to receive (as I do) the daily digest

His e mail is

mazhdtak@inter.net.il





2696 135 14_Internationale16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Thu, 02 May 2002 07:43:13 -0400627_us-ascii May 2, 2002 STRAIGHT TALK: Love of labor lost By Helen Schary Motro



Last week, stirring music rang out in Tel Aviv, with lyrics some would call inspirational and more might term passe: "So comrades come rally/ And the last fight let us face/ The Internationale unites the human race." Since 1871, when it was written by Eugene Pottier to celebrate the Paris Commune, the Internationale has been sung by workers, revolutionaries and would-be revolutionaries around the world. From Welsh to Esperanto, from Turkish to Zulu, the song has been translated into more than 40 languages. Yiddish is one of [...] 2832 43 20_Re: Sylvio Hoskovich0_18_Brianscoop@aol.com28_Thu, 2 May 2002 09:35:16 EDT190_US-ASCII ok sylvio, you are on now. i set it for daily digest, which is what yigal said you'd want.

regards, brian

----------------------------- Brian Cooper brianscoop@aol.com 2876 89 21_Fwd: Sylvio Hoskovich0_18_Brianscoop@aol.com28_Thu, 2 May 2002 09:36:43 EDT159_US-ASCII sorry -- obviously i meant to send that to sylvio... happens to everyone < smile>

----------------------------- Brian Cooper brianscoop@aol.com 2966 43 18_Re: resolution 24211_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Thu, 02 May 2002 12:16:04 -0400501_us-ascii "R. Shultz" wrote:

> > UN Security Council Resolution > November 22, 1967

Hi Reuven,

Thanks for sending the text of resolution 242.

While we disagree in some of our conclusions, you seem to be fairly well informed on the subject, so I'm sure you are aware of the history of the phrase "Withdrawal of Israeli armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict" which was constructed explicitly to not say "the territories" but simply "territories". [...] 3010 34 39_Menachem Libes and the Exodus screening0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com28_Thu, 2 May 2002 13:00:25 EDT580_US-ASCII Dear Chevre! Last night there was a screening of "Exodus" in Santa Clarita at the new Regal Cinema-Imax theaters sponsored by Temple Beth Ami. Santa Clarita is about 25 minutes north of LA-and it was a weeknight. The theater- which seats 450 people was almost full; 50% of the audience was kids from 12-16. There was a short speech from a rep from the Israel Government Tourist Office, and then Menachem, Batel's father, spoke briefly about his life just after the end of WW2 when he became the navigator for the Aliyah Bet ship Palmach- only because he knew Hebrew [...] 3045 56 43_RE: Menachem Libes and the Exodus screening11_Batel Libes25_batel_libes@earthlink.net30_Thu, 2 May 2002 12:05:07 -0700327_us-ascii Hi, Thank you for the kind words about my father. He is truly a sweet man and I know this meant a lot to him. I also know that he will gladly speak at other screening in the general area and any other area that is asking him to come over. His story is even more elaborate than what came out in terms of the move. [...] 3102 20 43_Re: Menachem Libes and the Exodus screening0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com28_Thu, 2 May 2002 15:29:57 EDT334_US-ASCII I saw the article! There may be another one in today's paper- Mark Blazer- who is the rabbi at Beth Ami- is also Phil's son and he helps us out here doing the "operations" of the project ( booking the thaters, etc.)..so he pushed it up in the Santa Clarita area---- Your dad is so wonderful!!!! and cute!!!!! Thanks!!!! [...] 3123 48 57_Fw: 94 websites about Jerusalem (Jerusalem Day is May 10)7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Thu, 02 May 2002 13:39:18 +0300351_iso-8859-1 I hope that Jerusalem Day in America is celebrated. It is a wonderful holiday here in Jerusalem. pearl ----- Original Message ----- From: Jacob Richman To: Informal Aliyah discussion group Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2002 1:16 AM Subject: OT: 94 websites about Jerusalem (Jerusalem Day is May 10) [...] 3172 33 43_RE: Menachem Libes and the Exodus screening11_Batel Libes25_batel_libes@earthlink.net30_Thu, 2 May 2002 12:36:01 -0700400_us-ascii For those who remember the Rockland County ken in the early '70s, my father was better known as the chumus to the chumus and techina team.

-----Original Message----- From: owner-habonet@shamash.org [mailto:owner-habonet@shamash.org]On Behalf Of LiberHawke@aol.com Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2002 12:30 PM To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: Re: Menachem Libes and the Exodus screening [...] 3206 17 19_Apology to Batel...0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com28_Thu, 2 May 2002 15:37:30 EDT415_US-ASCII Apologies- whatever Brian has is catching! That was supposed to be to Batel! sue

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 3224 29 43_RE: Menachem Libes and the Exodus screening20_Naomi Goldberg Honor18_naomijgh@yahoo.com36_Thu, 2 May 2002 12:43:04 -0700 (PDT)354_us-ascii Even without Batel's father, I am looking forward to seeing Exodus next week here in Rockland County, NY. All proceeds from this screening are going to Federation's Israel Emergency Fund, to serve children affected by ongoing terrorism, especially in light of cuts in social services budgets, so it will be a worthwhile evening all around. [...] 3254 41 43_RE: Menachem Libes and the Exodus screening11_Batel Libes25_batel_libes@earthlink.net30_Thu, 2 May 2002 12:52:43 -0700662_us-ascii BTW, is there a Habonim ken in Rockland these days?

-----Original Message----- From: owner-habonet@shamash.org [mailto:owner-habonet@shamash.org]On Behalf Of Naomi Goldberg Honor Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2002 12:43 PM To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: RE: Menachem Libes and the Exodus screening

Even without Batel's father, I am looking forward to seeing Exodus next week here in Rockland County, NY. All proceeds from this screening are going to Federation's Israel Emergency Fund, to serve children affected by ongoing terrorism, especially in light of cuts in social services budgets, so it will be a worthwhile evening all around. [...] 3296 29 43_Re: Menachem Libes and the Exodus screening0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com28_Thu, 2 May 2002 16:02:23 EDT100_US-ASCII I am glad that the proceeds for the film are going to a good cause because the movie sucks. 3326 24 43_Re: Menachem Libes and the Exodus screening20_Naomi Goldberg Honor18_naomijgh@yahoo.com36_Thu, 2 May 2002 13:09:36 -0700 (PDT)582_us-ascii Regarding Richard's comment on the film -- you never were one to mince words, were you?

Naomi

__________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness http://health.yahoo.com

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 3351 28 43_Re: Menachem Libes and the Exodus screening0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com28_Thu, 2 May 2002 16:43:25 EDT549_US-ASCII Let me ask Richard how old he is? No one under the age of 50 has seen this on the big screen- (it last appeared on movies screens in 1961) with what is going on today- the dialogue is amazingly pertinent, and you would be amazed at the lack of education regarding Aliyah Bet and the 66 ships that sailed during that time - that they were crewed by mostly Americans and Canadians (and Habonim played a HUGE role- Akiva Skidell did a lot of recruiting- and many of our chevre were crewmembers.....Please remember the film was based on a [...] 3380 16 43_Re: Menachem Libes and the Exodus screening0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com28_Thu, 2 May 2002 16:44:40 EDT379_US-ASCII I would like a "report" from you, Naomi--sue

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 3397 104 16_RE: (no subject)11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com30_Thu, 2 May 2002 14:28:49 -0700724_us-ascii Educate

Steve -----Original Message----- From: owner-habonet@shamash.org [mailto:owner-habonet@shamash.org]On Behalf Of Richardrdsmith@aol.com Sent: Friday, April 26, 2002 6:49 PM To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: (no subject)



In a message dated 4/26/02 5:38:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time, DLerner569@aol.com writes:





Israel is a Jewish state. That is its reason for being.



I have a question for any of you Zionists out there. Let us assume that a peace settlement is reached and most of the West Bank and Gaza are no longer under Israeli control. Most of the Israeli Arabs stay in Israel and in fifty years or so the Arab population of Israel begins to [...] 3502 186 37_=?koi8-r?B?xNTC28Q6IGZvcmdpdmVuZXNz?=8_ericmoli25_ericmoli@netvision.net.il31_Fri, 03 May 2002 00:28:35 +0200540_koi8-r

----- Original Message ----- From: gailsid To: sid & gail Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2002 5:39 AM Subject: forgiveness



> > > > Never Prouder to be an Israeli and a Jew > > Naomi Ragen, Author > > > > I was walking down the street in Jerusalem the other day when it suddenly > > occurred to me in the way those obvious thoughts just pop into oneâá™s head > > out > > of nowhere, that never, in all my life, have I felt more proud to be an > > Israeli and to be [...] 3689 105 59_Urgent Action Alert: Israel Solidarity Resolutions (No. II)11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org30_Thu, 2 May 2002 18:52:23 -0500780_us-ascii >> >>Colleagues: >> >>Important info on the Israel solidarity resoulutions in Congress. >>Pass the word and please call your representatives this morning. >> >>Best wishes >>Eric >> >>Rabbi Eric M. Lankin, D.Min. >>Director of Religious and Educational Activities >>United Jewish Communities >>111 Eighth Avenue Suite 11E >>New York, NY 10011-5201 >>phone 212.284.6513 FAX 212.284.6837 >>eric.lankin@ujc.org >>www.ujc.org >>******************************************************************** >> >>JCPA Action Alert >>Jewish Council for Public Affairs >> >> >>May 1, 2002 >> >>To: JCPA and UJC Member Agencies >> Rabbis and other Jewish Community Leaders >> >>From: Reva Price, Washington Representative >> Tamar Harari-Gur, Program Assistant >> >>Re: Urgent Action [...] 3795 55 16_Re: (no subject)0_18_DLerner569@aol.com28_Thu, 2 May 2002 20:49:15 EDT568_US-ASCII Steve, I take it that your one word message is directed at me. I don't have the temerity to think that I have much, if anything to offer in that regard. I can however try to explain what I meant (mean).

I have written several times asking whether it is part of God's plan for the Jews to have a country of their own. While nationalism is a long way from being dead, the discriminators between one country and another grow less and less significant over time. States are less and less homogeneous in their ethnic composition. Economies and markets [...] 3851 119 43_Re: Menachem Libes and the Exodus screening21_Tsippi (Frances) Rudy16_tsippi@attbi.com31_Thu, 02 May 2002 19:51:40 -0700409_us-ascii Dear Sue,

It's too bad there was no notice of this screening on Habonet. I would have loved to come to it. My parents and I drove Sacramento, where we lived, to San Francisco for the opening of the film; my sister Davida was in Israel on the Machon Le'Madrichei Chutz La'aretz then, or she would have been with us. It was a very moving experience then and I hope it will be for me again. [...] 3971 17 54_Re: Menachem Libes and the Exodus screening=fro Tzippi0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com28_Thu, 2 May 2002 23:04:33 EDT469_US-ASCII We are planning screenings with synagogues all through the summer in the LA area- I will let you know when things are scheduled....sue

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 3989 111 24_On Machanot and Politics0_13_SC523@aol.com28_Fri, 3 May 2002 02:01:36 EDT334_US-ASCII This response to my sister Rena's post was written my my daughter (and Rena's niece), Orli, a former Merakezet Chinuch at Galil. I thought you might find it cogent as it relates to our discussion.

Aliya

Orli wrote:

Rena (we simply use first names in our family rather than Aunt ___ or Uncle ____) , [...] 4101 26 43_Re: Menachem Libes and the Exodus screening0_13_SC523@aol.com28_Fri, 3 May 2002 02:30:53 EDT684_US-ASCII

In a message dated 5/2/02 3:53:25 PM, batel_libes@earthlink.net writes:

<< BTW, is there a Habonim ken in Rockland these days? >>

We have one ken which includes the 5 boroughs of New York, WEstchester and Rockland Counties, Nassau and Suffolk Counties, NOrthern New Jersey, etc. - they generally meet in Manhattan.

Aliya

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 4128 128 11_Monthly FAQ12_Jennifer Kay19_kay@elvis.rowan.edu31_Fri, 03 May 2002 02:32:02 -0400415_- Actually-from:brianscoop@aol.com

Hi Chevre,

Here is a reminder of the "essential" commands that you can use to configure your subscription to Habonet. I will post this monthly from now on. Please note -- The address for commands is: listproc@shamash.org whereas the address for posts to the list is: habonet@shamash.org If you need any help with any of it, send me an email: brianscoop@aol.com [...] 4257 138 62_Re: What did Habonim teach me? (was Re: machanot and politics)12_Doug Greener25_ddwgreen@netvision.net.il31_Fri, 03 May 2002 09:58:54 +0300341_iso-8859-1 As a new madricha in the 60's, the first time I had to give a sicha to a group of 11-year-olds on the War of Independence, I assumed "everyone" knew the basic facts of the War. So I delved into a few textbooks and started talking about world interests and oil deposits and who knows what else. I got completely blank stares. [...] 4396 114 43_Re: Menachem Libes and the Exodus screening12_Doug Greener25_ddwgreen@netvision.net.il31_Fri, 03 May 2002 09:58:31 +0300561_iso-8859-1 Just some nostalgia about Exodus:

When I saw it when it opened in the States, I was also swept up in the movie (and who didn't weep for Sal Mineo?) (Parenthetically, my husband is distantly related to Dov Gruner, but that was far in the future.)

The next time I saw it was on Workshop at Gesher Haziv (when they still had public movie screenings in the chadar ochel). I was unfortunately in the middle of a turkey shipment, so I kept running back and forth from the lul between shipments to catch what I could. But I remember that [...] 4511 54 7_request8_ericmoli25_ericmoli@netvision.net.il31_Fri, 03 May 2002 19:21:02 +0200254_windows-1255



Dear Brain,

I'm looking for the E mail address of the ex-Workshopper who has a hotel in Caesarea, Israel. I' appreciate it if you, or anyone else, would send her address to me.

Sabbath Shalom,

Mollie Marx 4566 54 11_Re: request0_18_Brianscoop@aol.com28_Fri, 3 May 2002 12:27:02 EDT414_US-ASCII In a message dated 5/3/02 12:22:42 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ericmoli@netvision.net.il writes:



> I'm looking for the E mail address of the ex-Workshopper who has a hotel in > Caesarea, Israel. I' appreciate it if you

send a request to habonet.. i believe she's on it and will reply herself...

regards, brian

----------------------------- Brian Cooper brianscoop@aol.com 4621 16 11_Re: request0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com28_Fri, 3 May 2002 13:25:13 EDT392_US-ASCII It's Ilana Berger- and I think she "unsubscribed"--...sue

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 4638 26 52_Re: Menachem Libes and the Exodus screening-to Trudy0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com28_Fri, 3 May 2002 13:56:33 EDT563_US-ASCII Hi- Your comments brought up another incident- Micha, my son, has a cd from his band, "Milot haNefesh"- the cd is beautiful ( if I do say so myself)-- very soothing with some amazing songs which are all original. The girl singer sent a copy to her cousins in Israel- and they laughed at it....When I asked Micha why, he said that "It wasn't marketed for Israel, but for America"..... ( they laughed at the accents!)....I am not sure that the producers of "Exodus" had Israelis in mind when they were making this film...But the truht is- it would be [...] 4665 16 18_Re: request-Ooops-0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com28_Fri, 3 May 2002 13:57:54 EDT376_US-ASCII oops- I meant- Ilana BERNER!!!.. sorry- s

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 4682 70 11_Re: request20_Gayle, Mark and Ayah18_sarazen@rogers.com30_Fri, 3 May 2002 14:36:29 -0400355_windows-1255 >From one of Ilana's past mails:

"A Room With A (Pool) View" B&B Ilana & Tzvia Hostesses 23 Harimon St. Caesarea, Israel 050-624710 04 6363936 www.caesarea-b-and-b.150m.com

Gayle Charach

I'm looking for the E mail address of the ex-Workshopper who has a hotel in Caesarea, Israel. I' appreciate it if you, or anyone else, 4753 145 91_=?koi8-r?Q?=C4=D4=C2=DB=C4:_EXCERPTS_FR0M_AN_ISRAELI'S_LETTER_TO_A_FRIEND?= =?koi8-r?Q?..?=8_ericmoli25_ericmoli@netvision.net.il31_Fri, 03 May 2002 22:28:08 +0200553_koi8-r

----- Original Message ----- From: gailsid To: sid & gail Sent: Friday, May 03, 2002 6:09 PM Subject: EXCERPTS FR0M AN ISRAELI'S LETTER TO A FRIEND..



> > > > EXCERPTS FR0M AN ISRAELI'S LETTER TO A FRIEND.. > > > > I am not the least afraid to go any place, by bus or to a mall. I didn't > > change or stop doing ANY thing I used to do before this mess began! People > > tend to forget that twice the casualties from terror get killed on the > > roads! More people still [...] 4899 80 37_=?iso-8859-1?B?5PLh+OQ6IHJlcXVlc3Q=?=8_ericmoli25_ericmoli@netvision.net.il31_Fri, 03 May 2002 22:30:31 +0200409_iso-8859-1

----- Original Message ----- From: Brianscoop@aol.com To: habonet@shamash.org Sent: Friday, May 03, 2002 6:27 PM Subject: Re: request



In a message dated 5/3/02 12:22:42 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ericmoli@netvision.net.il writes:





I'm looking for the E mail address of the ex-Workshopper who has a hotel in Caesarea, Israel. I' appreciate it if you [...] 4980 131 41_=?iso-8859-1?B?UmU6IOTy4fjkOiByZXF1ZXN0?=20_Gayle, Mark and Ayah18_sarazen@rogers.com30_Fri, 3 May 2002 15:32:55 -0400481_iso-8859-1 Here you go Mollie...

ilanabr@bezeqint.net

Gayle Charach ----- Original Message ----- From: ericmoli To: habonet@shamash.org Sent: Friday, May 03, 2002 4:30 PM Subject: äòáøä: request





----- Original Message ----- From: Brianscoop@aol.com To: habonet@shamash.org Sent: Friday, May 03, 2002 6:27 PM Subject: Re: request



In a message dated 5/3/02 12:22:42 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ericmoli@netvision.net.il writes: [...] 5112 116 37_=?iso-8859-1?B?4fLw6envOiByZXF1ZXN0?=8_ericmoli25_ericmoli@netvision.net.il31_Fri, 03 May 2002 22:45:58 +0200550_iso-8859-1 Dear Brian,

Thank you for your quick reply. As instructed, I sent my request to habonet.

If you don't mind, I'd like to put in my 2 cents about what I got out of Habonim, many year's ago. In my era (the 40's & 50's) things were so much simplier. We didn't have discusions or arguments about religion or politics or right or wrong. We were educated to know that the Jewish People were right to want a Statehood in the Land of our Forefathers. This had nothing to do with the subject of Greater Israel, only the real need [...] 5229 38 37_=?iso-8859-1?B?4fLw6envOiByZXF1ZXN0?=8_ericmoli25_ericmoli@netvision.net.il31_Fri, 03 May 2002 22:50:24 +0200302_iso-8859-1 Dear Sue,

I am so glad that my request got through to habonet. I can't thank you enough for answering me so quickly. As I live in Israel I shall call up Bezek, our phone co. and ask for Ilana's phone no. Life is so much simpler in Israel, today, than it was 10 or 15 year's ago. [...] 5268 306 11_may 11 200211_Jamie Levin22_mazkir@habonimdror.org30_Fri, 3 May 2002 16:15:42 -0400617_iso-8859-1 PRESS ADVISORY MAY 3, 2002

New York, NY...... Four American Zionist organizations, Meretz USA (aligned with the Meretz-Democratic Israel Party in Israel), Hashomer Hatzair, Habonim Dror, and the Labor Zionist Alliance (aligned with the Labor Party in Israel) announced today a public gathering and march from the Israeli Consulate (at 42nd Street and Second Avenue) to the Palestinian Authority's UN mission on East 65th Street for 1 PM, Saturday, May 11. The event is being held in parallel with and in support of a major rally of the Peace Coalition in Israel which is meeting at 8 PM at the [...] 5575 1003 126_=?Windows-1252?Q?=E4=F2=E1=F8=E4:_CIJR_DAILY_ISRANET_BRIEFING_______H?= =?Windows-1252?Q?ow_very_true___Regads__GeraldSilber?=8_ericmoli25_ericmoli@netvision.net.il31_Sat, 04 May 2002 16:05:07 +0200453_Windows-1252 Hi All,

The following article is a must to read, digest and then send on, perhaps even to the media.

It's diffentely food for thought.

Mollie ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul To: Dave Pepper ; ericmoli ; June Baker ; Louis Green ; Michael Harris ; Michelle Lubczanski ; Nigel Salomon ; Ros Ordman Sent: Friday, May 03, 2002 9:28 AM Subject: Fw: CIJR DAILY ISRANET BRIEFING How very true Regads GeraldSilber [...] 6579 184 24_Song&Dance, Sex&Politics12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Sat, 04 May 2002 17:54:00 +0200595_iso-8859-1

Haverot/im About ten years ago Liova Eliav a Meretz Member of Knesset read the Song of Songs from the podium. I don’t remember the exact item on the Knesset agenda. It might have been Sifrut Toevah the Ultra Orthodox code word for abomination literature of an explicitly sexual nature or it may have been about equal tax benefits for gay couples. Eliav chose to show up the closed mindedness and hypocrisy of the obscuritanists when it comes to what they call “the Sources.” And predictably they rose to the bait. He steadfastly maintained that the Song of Songs was his [...] 6764 581 49_A long overdue introduction (warning.. LONG post)20_Gayle, Mark and Ayah18_sarazen@rogers.com30_Sat, 4 May 2002 12:55:23 -0400583_Windows-1252 Mollie Marx wrote me a note today with a few questions. It occured to me after answering them and giving her some historical perspective on my own background with Israel and Habonim, that I had never really "formally" introduced myself to Habonet. So, if you will all bear with me, the following is part of my LONG story for those who care to read it. I mostly sit quietly here, watching the heated debates with great interest, but rarely if ever have I offered up any opinions regarding the present situation Ba'Aretz, largely for personal reasons that I will not [...] 7346 42 53_Re: A long overdue introduction (warning.. LONG post)0_18_Brianscoop@aol.com28_Sat, 4 May 2002 14:49:15 EDT119_US-ASCII great email Gayle. thanks.

--brian

----------------------------- Brian Cooper brianscoop@aol.com 7389 490 7_Subject12_Doug Greener25_ddwgreen@netvision.net.il31_Sat, 04 May 2002 23:39:35 +0300423_windows-1255 HonestReporting Communique 03 May 2002

"LIGHTS OUT ON NIGHTLINE"

* * *

Dear HonestReporting Member,

ABC's "Nightline" (May 1) featured Ted Koppel interviewing both Yasir Arafat and Ariel Sharon.

The Arafat interview was a classic case of media manipulation, with Koppel timidly failing to challenge Arafat's outrageous assertions of Israeli "big lies" and "big crimes." [...] 7880 20 28_60 minutes Sunday May 5 20029_R. Shultz18_lzac@securenet.net30_Sat, 4 May 2002 23:40:35 -0400611_iso-8859-1

Sunday at 7 pm in the United States,* CBS "60 Minutes" will broadcast "Hell no, we won't go" -- a story about a group of Israel Defense Force officers and soldiers who have announced their refusal to serve in the Occupied Territories. Bob Simon is the correspondent;

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 7901 441 8_Fw: U.N.4_sima19_simagr@telhai.ac.il30_Sun, 5 May 2002 15:36:55 +0200643_iso-8859-1 U.N. lynching prelude

Arnold Beichman Hoover Institution

Published 5/2/2002 The Washington Times



Of the 190 countries in the United Nations only one, Israel, has been singled out by a majority of the U.N. membership for extinction. I will document this statement with a catalogue of actions taken by the U.N. in the half-century of the its existence that will demonstrate: ? First, that no other U .N. member state has ever been so targeted; yes, not even apartheid South Africa. ? Second, no other U.N. member state has had its legitimacy so consistently questioned. ? Third, no other U.N. member [...] 8343 94 8_Re: U.N.9_R. Shultz18_lzac@securenet.net30_Sun, 5 May 2002 09:17:50 -0400367_iso-8859-1 Was the UN also against Israeli when in October 1995 Prime Minister Yitshak Rabin, on the occasion of the UN's 50th anniversary, received a standing ovation from a full house when he addressed the UN Plenum?

Reuven S. Montreal ----- Original Message ----- From: sima To: habonet@shamash.org Sent: Sunday, May 05, 2002 9:36 AM Subject: Fw: U.N. [...] 8438 35 25_50th Workshop Celebration0_14_KBob24@aol.com28_Sun, 5 May 2002 09:27:40 EDT341_US-ASCII Folks:

I am getting ready to take off from the NYC Salute to Israel Solidarity Parade and want to send out another reminder to all of you.

1) Please try to attend the events on June 8-9 in NYC in honor of the 50 years of Habonim Dror Workshop. You will have fun and it will be a shot in the arm for the movement. [...] 8474 50 8_Re: U.N.0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com28_Sun, 5 May 2002 10:27:48 EDT571_US-ASCII Ruevan you need to be more disiplined in your posting. While your general attitute is clear, the one liners and the things you offer tend to ignore the realities of the situation. While the posting you are responding to was from the Hoover institution, an group that I do not respect, it was well put together and pointed out things that have come from other groups in less direct fashion. Of particular note is the blistering criticism levelled at the UN by Human Rights watch. The UN human rights commission has been taken over by some of the worse human [...] 8525 19 22_Re: U.N.-Thanks to Sam0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com28_Sun, 5 May 2002 12:23:45 EDT567_US-ASCII Thanks Sam for your cogent and intelligent response to Reuven...I was about to answer myself- a"whoop-de-do"- a token applause- but look at the UN's basic attitudes towards Israel" when I read your explanation....Thanks again- susie

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 8545 53 32_Re: 60 minutes Sunday May 5 20027_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Sun, 05 May 2002 23:01:07 +0300567_iso-8859-1 Just be aware that this group of soldiers are on the very fringes: the call ups were over subscribed, so to speak: soldiers who were long ago mustered out of milium showed up even though they were not called up; virtually 100% of the soldiers called up showed up for their service. I know that this might not be understandable to some people, but most Israelis would likely find offensive just the posting of such an announcement as this one below. I know it is important to hear all sides, but the posting feels like an endorsement, and Israelis are [...] 8599 138 32_: A SOLDIER OF THE JEWISH PEOPLE7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Sun, 05 May 2002 23:07:26 +0300533_iso-8859-1



A SOLDIER OF THE JEWISH PEOPLE > > > > > > KIDS FOR KIDS IS HUMBLED TO BRING YOU THIS STORY by Liron Nagler-Cohen > from > > May 3, 2002, Hatsofeh newspaper.

> > A SOLDIER OF THE JEWISH PEOPLE > > > > > > During the fierce fighting in Jenin, Israel's Commander in Chief, General > > Shaul Mofaz came to inspect the fighting forces in the area. He gathered > > the commanders and officers for a briefing. He suddenly noticed that one > of his Major Generals,Avraham Gutman had a long rip on his [...] 8738 197 45_=?iso-8859-1?B?UmU6IOHy8Onp7zogcmVxdWVzdA==?=7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Mon, 06 May 2002 00:27:42 +0300331_iso-8859-1 Ilana Berner left Habonet. She does not own a hotel, but has a b and b in her home which she rents out. (one room). write me separately and I shall send you Ilana's email address. pearl ----- Original Message ----- From: ericmoli To: habonet@shamash.org Sent: Friday, May 03, 2002 11:45 PM Subject: áòðééï: request [...] 8936 25 32_Re: 60 minutes Sunday May 5 20020_17_JackNusan@aol.com28_Sun, 5 May 2002 19:25:49 EDT490_US-ASCII Yes, I saw it--the 60 Minutes show about Israeli army officer refuseniks. It brought tears to my eyes how brave they are. Only a Great refusal as in the Vietnam War will stop this Sharon craziness. Yes, we need to root out andf stasmp out terrorist cells and then we must leave the West Bank and begin the slow tortuous process of seting up a Palestinian state. Othrwise, this will become an occupying force akin to South Africa. It will never work. I applaud the refuseniks. [...] 8962 16 29_Re: 50th Workshop Celebration0_17_JackNusan@aol.com28_Sun, 5 May 2002 19:29:11 EDT365_US-ASCII I will be there! Jackie Porter

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 8979 589 18_London Free Press.13_moshe sheskin24_moshes7@netvision.net.il55_Sun, 05 May 2002 20:23:44 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time)641_iso-8859-1 With apologies to readers of the London Free Press who may have read this in a previous edition of the paper.



UN’S HUMAN RIGHTS FALLACY BY Licia Corbella, (London Free Press)

You would think the member countries of the United Nations Commission on Human Rights would have to, at the very least, practice human rights themselves. That, however, is not the case. In fact, of the 53 member countries of the UN’s commission on Human Rights (UNCHR), 29 of them are categorized “not free” or “partly free,” according to criteria established by Freedom House, a non-profit organization that promotes democracy [...] 9569 37 14_Re: 60 minutes0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com28_Mon, 6 May 2002 09:27:13 EDT555_US-ASCII I too watched the 60 minutes piece and was, as usual, appalled at the lack of balance in the media. I did not "well up with tears- instead, I got "pissed off." I wrote to the station that I would bet my life that 99.9% of Israelis probably feel the same as these individuals, but also know that they have a responsibility to protect their citizens, and if it takes policing the territories, then that is what it will take. In discussing the "plight of the poor Palestinians"- no mention was made, of course, of the billions of dollars spent [...] 9607 17 14_Re: 60 minutes0_18_RickGlaser@aol.com28_Mon, 6 May 2002 11:25:03 EDT435_US-ASCII fyi: the 60 minutes piece was produced by solly granatstein, a boger of Moshava from the late 1980's

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 9625 121 49_A Soldier's Reflections On An Untenable Situation9_R. Shultz18_lzac@securenet.net30_Mon, 6 May 2002 12:14:13 -0400438_iso-8859-1 A mission too far

Haim Weiss, who was once glad to serve in the Israeli army, tells his defence secretary why he will not go to the West Bank

Monday May 6, 2002 The Guardian

Dear Ben Eliezer I must put in writing the reasons that have led me to one of the most difficult decisions of my life - to refuse the call for reserve duty in the areas of Judea and Samaria [the West Bank], and the Gaza Strip. [...] 9747 779 11_RE: Subject11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com30_Mon, 6 May 2002 10:05:02 -0700564_windows-1255 Doug

I saw the interview. I loved it! I thought that it showed what a mental patient Arafat is, making up stories and pulling heartstrings with garbage such as his sole concern being the safety and sanctity of the church of the nativity. No,it did not look as if Koppel did his homework. But it did give a grand opportunity for the world to see once again what a maniac Arafat is. Koppel came off as a psychiatrist that sits and tries to keep a raving maniac under control by saying "right, right" whenever the delusions are going off the [...] 10527 100 14_Re: 60 minutes0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com28_Mon, 6 May 2002 16:02:54 EDT581_US-ASCII In a message dated 5/6/02 9:28:07 AM Eastern Daylight Time, LiberHawke@aol.com writes:



> . In discussing the "plight of the > poor Palestinians"- no mention was made, of course, of the billions of > dollars spent on arms instead of social reform; no mention was made, of > course, of the fact that Arafat's family lives in Paris! (How are they > being > supported, as opposed to their own people!) Nothing was mentioned, of > course, > that not one coin has been spent on planting a tree or flowers, or buying > clothing or housing for the Palestinian [...] 10628 86 14_Re: 60 minutes11_Don Goelman25_don.goelman@villanova.edu31_Mon, 06 May 2002 16:17:49 -0400452_us-ascii > > > My impression of the piece was that while I think I understand both > sides of the refusnik issue I found that these refusniks are the kinds > of people who I would want to hang out with. They seemed like their > hearts are in the right place and they are willing to put their > freedom on the line for what they believe. As opposed to the settlers > who are willing to put other people's lives on the line for what they > believe. [...] 10715 55 14_Re: 60 minutes0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com28_Mon, 6 May 2002 16:39:41 EDT412_US-ASCII In a message dated 5/6/02 4:16:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time, don.goelman@villanova.edu writes:



> We could also compare the refuseniks not with settlers but with the > miluimniks who are neither particularly chauvinistic nor supportive of the > settlers but who felt that it was important that they report for duty when > they were called up. I'd feel honored to hang out with them. > [...] 10771 167 14_Re: 60 minutes0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com28_Mon, 6 May 2002 17:17:11 EDT317_US-ASCII

Hi Richard- I usually don't do this- but because I am so "pissed off"- I will....: <<

Did you see the same show as I did? I didn't see anyone talking about the, "poor Palestinians," at all. What the piece was about was Israelis who thought the occupation was bad for Israel and Israelis. [...] 10939 23 14_Re: 60 minutes0_18_Brianscoop@aol.com28_Mon, 6 May 2002 17:24:23 EDT493_US-ASCII > But to someone sitting in Sheboygin it looks > like this movement is bigger than Bush's ears

And....?

.... that's a BAD thing?

-- brian

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 10963 42 14_Re: 60 minutes0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com28_Mon, 6 May 2002 17:58:54 EDT287_US-ASCII In a message dated 5/6/02 5:25:12 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Brianscoop@aol.com writes:



> But to someone sitting in Sheboygin it looks >

Forgive my ignorance, where is Sheboygin? BTW-the show did mention it was only a very small number of soldiers involved. 11006 16 9_Sheboygin0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com28_Mon, 6 May 2002 18:19:09 EDT361_US-ASCII It's in Wisconsin.....s :)

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 11023 37 56_Re: (was 60 minutes) - personal story about a "refusnik"0_14_KBob24@aol.com28_Mon, 6 May 2002 22:40:08 EDT573_US-ASCII Folks:

I was in Israel last week and witnessed an event that reminded me that while on Habonet these topics bring out extreme political shouts (traitors and heroes) in Israel they are also personal stories.

Previously on Habonet I posted information about one of the refusniks, a son of a very good friend of mine. While I was in Israel last week he was called up to serve, pleaded to serve elsewhere and ultimately was told it was the territories or jail. To make a very long story short, in one day he was promoted to captain and sentenced to [...] 11061 377 27_Fw: Lights Out On Nightline7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Mon, 06 May 2002 23:07:53 +0300653_windows-1255 If I sent this to you already, forgive me! pearl ----- Original Message ----- From: Honest Reporting To: skolnik Sent: Friday, May 03, 2002 12:30 PM Subject: Lights Out On Nightline



> HonestReporting Communique > 03 May 2002 > > "LIGHTS OUT ON NIGHTLINE" > > * * * > > Dear HonestReporting Member, > > ABC's "Nightline" (May 1) featured Ted Koppel interviewing both Yasir > Arafat and Ariel Sharon. > > The Arafat interview was a classic case of media manipulation, with Koppel > timidly failing to challenge Arafat's outrageous assertions of Israeli > "big lies" [...] 11439 23 5_Exile0_18_DLerner569@aol.com28_Tue, 7 May 2002 10:48:42 EDT648_US-ASCII Damn.

How come none of us ethical humanists never get exiled to places like Italy? What an unreasonable price for Palestinian terrorists to pay. It reminds one of all those former Kings, etc. serving exiles in Paris. There are (if you ever had any doubt) significant enticements to being bad.

Dennis

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 11463 32 9_Re: Exile11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Tue, 07 May 2002 10:58:05 -0400363_us-ascii DLerner569@aol.com wrote:

> Damn. > > How come none of us ethical humanists never get exiled to places like Italy? > What an unreasonable price for Palestinian terrorists to pay. It reminds one > of all those former Kings, etc. serving exiles in Paris. There are (if you > ever had any doubt) significant enticements to being bad. > > Dennis [...] 11496 61 9_Re: Exile11_Andy Alpern25_alps@golemproductions.com31_Tue, 07 May 2002 11:11:39 -0400510_US-ASCII As of now...Italy won't take them. They don't want Palestinian gunmen running around Rome! By the way, Egypt doesn't even want them to pass through their country on the way to anywhere else. There's Arab brotherhood for you! aa



Andy Alpern Executive Director, israelVR.com

When reality is too much..... http://israelVR.com

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Golem Productions "We Bring Things to Life!" (212) 330-8166 [...] 11558 85 10_a question14_Jessica Silver26_foundation@habonimdror.org30_Tue, 7 May 2002 16:20:20 -0400350_iso-8859-1 Hey Habonetters-

I've been contacted by a young women who is looking for information about her mother and aunt's aliya dates. She thinks they came to Israel through Habonim, but she isn't sure.

Does anyone out there know or remember Josie Katz, who grew up in Pittsburgh and moved to Israel around 1959 to Gesher Haziv. [...] 11644 312 14_RE: a question11_Batel Libes25_batel_libes@earthlink.net30_Tue, 7 May 2002 13:18:23 -0700381_iso-8859-1 Hi, I am a close friend of Josie’s ex, Shmulik, and am familiar with Josie. Please contact me directly and I can see what I can help with. Batel

-----Original Message----- From: owner-habonet@shamash.org [mailto:owner-habonet@shamash.org]On Behalf Of Jessica Silver Sent: Tuesday, May 07, 2002 1:20 PM To: Habonet Subject: a question

Hey Habonetters- [...] 11957 76 62_Harvard Professors Call for Divesting from Israeli investments11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org30_Tue, 7 May 2002 17:55:03 -0500688_us-ascii 14:53 May-07-02, 25 Iyar 5762 >Harvard Professors Call for Divesting From Israeli Investments > >(IsraelNN.com) 39 Harvard University professors have signed a petition >calling on the university to divest from investment in Israel. The petition >was presented to a forum at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology on >Monday. > >The joint petition between Harvard and MIT calls for an end to ties with >Israel until "Israel ends its occupation of Palestinian territories, complies >with a number of UN resolutions, and puts a stop to alleged human rights >abuses". >http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=23073 > >I believe that were the faculty who have thus far [...] 12034 147 36_FWD: Forwarding 2 items of interest-11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org30_Wed, 8 May 2002 06:04:51 -0500680_us-ascii >Announcements in this issue: > >3. The Ambassador program >4. Student initiative - project one percent >******************************************* >This course sounds REALLY interesting and useful!! (free, too) > >Date: Sun, 05 May 2002 18:44:30 +0000 >From: Eitan Eliram >Subject: the ambassador program > >Jewish students, educators and community leaders in the Diaspora face >many challenges as a result of the growth of terrorism in Israel. On the >one hand fewer people are visiting Israel, while on the other, many of us >are called upon to explain Israel's policy -- often to a hostile >audience. To meet this challenge the Department [...] 12182 92 13_Yiddish books16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Wed, 08 May 2002 10:31:58 -0400588_us-ascii A colleague has asked me to pass along the following information on Yiddish [as well as English] books available for sale from CYCO, a venerable institutions based in New York, NY. Please respond DIRECTLY to them via either fax, phone or that old-fashioned standard, paper. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ CENTRAL YIDDISH CULTURE ORGANIZATION (CYCO) INC. "CYCO" Publishing House and Book Distribution Center ATRAN CENTER FOR JEWISH CULTURE 25 East 21st Street, New York, New York 10010 Tel (212) 505-8305 Fax (212) 505-8044 [...] 12275 176 27_Fwd: Northern Anti Semitism0_16_BERNSARA@aol.com28_Thu, 9 May 2002 11:53:08 EDT17_US-ASCII

12452 19 29_SOS to Washington-area chevre0_18_Rachelbern@aol.com31_Thu, 09 May 2002 13:39:48 -0400369_iso-8859-1 I'm looking to move ASAP to get out of housing situation that is turning ugly, and would really appreciate it if you could let me know if you hear of any potential rentals for me, cat & dog (other pet & kid-friendly); prefer house-share, need to be less than 45-min commute to 16th & Q Streets, NW (working at DCJCC*, lots of evening/weekend programs). [...] 12472 72 20_Deadline is near....0_14_KBob24@aol.com28_Thu, 9 May 2002 15:49:31 EDT539_US-ASCII ......for you to place an ad in the special issue of Chadashot celebrating 50 years of the Habonim Workshop. You don't have to be a workshop graduate to participate - I am placing an ad and I wasn't on the workshop.

You don't need to find the forms, write a check, or anything. Just email me or Jessica Silver (foundation@habonimdror.org) with a one line greeting and we'll send you a bill for $50. It is painless and will be a huge help to the movement. If a 100 of you 300 odd Habonetters (OK not all of you are odd [...] 12545 58 61_Fw: 66 websites about Shavuot + 120 Jerusalem Parade pictures7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Thu, 09 May 2002 13:53:49 +0300618_iso-8859-1

----- Original Message ----- From: Jacob Richman To: Informal Aliyah discussion group Sent: Thursday, May 09, 2002 4:48 AM Subject: OT: 66 websites about Shavuot + 120 Jerusalem Parade pictures



> Hi Everyone! > > Shavuot is the Jewish holiday that celebrates the giving > of the Torah, the first harvest, and the ripening of the > first fruits. The two day festival (1 day in Israel) begins > on Thursday evening, May 16, 2002. > > I posted on my website 66 links about Shavuot, ranging > from laws and customs to games and recipes. > > [...] 12604 27 42_Attention: 23rd Workshop and MB Yod Alumni13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Thu, 09 May 2002 20:53:04 -0400512_us-ascii Dear Chevreh-

I have volunteered to place an ad in the name of the 23rd Workshop at Maayan Baruch but hadn't gotten enough pledges. I will place it in the name of both 23rd Workshops (assuming Yotvata chevreh didn't get it together to do their own) and also MB Yod, if chevreh pledge enough money. You can send me the checks later. If you are interested, email me back. I suggest $18-25 but will take a pledge of any amount. If we are going ot do this, I need the pledges by Monday, May 13. [...] 12632 28 11_Life/ Peace0_24_purpleroot8@netscape.net31_Thu, 09 May 2002 20:58:00 -0400287_iso-8859-1

One person alone was brought forth at the time of creation in order to teach us that one who destroys a single human soul is regarded as the destroyer of the whole world, while one who preseves a single human soul is regarded as the preserver of the whole world. [...] 12661 49 46_RE: Attention: 23rd Workshop and MB Yod Alumni11_Batel Libes25_batel_libes@earthlink.net30_Thu, 9 May 2002 19:03:41 -0700722_us-ascii Hi, I'm in for Chai, but since I'm in San Francisco, I don't think the check will get there in time. BTW, where is "there" so I know where to send the check to.

Batel

-----Original Message----- From: owner-habonet@shamash.org [mailto:owner-habonet@shamash.org]On Behalf Of Judith Gelman Sent: Thursday, May 09, 2002 5:53 PM To: Belinkoff, Dena; Belinkoff,Dena; Martin I. Gruder, D.C.; huberman, michael; Naomi Jay; David Meyer; Steve Einstein; Michael Huberman; sharon kalb-komarin; Rama Levitan Ben Baruch; Billy Lewis; david oderberg; Nancee Paller (Nechama Solomon); Saralyn Peritz; Jobeth Ronay Ben Yehuda; Scheff Teri; Dan Tint; twersky steve; Karen Fleishman-Polan; Laurie Levine Riggio; [...] 12711 30 15_Re: Life/ Peace4_Meir21_meir_h@maccabi.org.il31_Fri, 10 May 2002 05:31:16 +0200545_iso-8859-1 Actually this appears in the Mishnah twice. The second time it says - that one who destroys a single JEWISH human soul is regarded as the destroyer of the whole world

>From what I've learned THIS is the great dividing line in Judaism. Those that take the world into consideration and those that look only on "Is it good for the Jews". My guess is that only the Orthodox have a large proportion of proponents of this second point ov view. And the majority of the Orthodox in Israel are of this particularist point of view. [...] 12742 45 12_re: question16_Marlene Goldfarb29_msgold@postoffice.pacbell.net31_Thu, 09 May 2002 20:29:22 -0700400_us-ascii



Josie Katz was on the 9th Workshop at Gesher Haziv, 1959-1960. She returned to the States with the workshop in August, 1960, but soon went back to Israel. The last address I had for Josie - easily 5 years ago - was in Hemet in Southern California. I've heard that she has since gone back to Israel. Kenna was a couple of years younger so went to Israel at a later date. [...] 12788 145 87_Jerusalem Day. NEW, expanded letter: Gedalyahu Hillel's (Gedalya's) shloshim: unveiling7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Fri, 10 May 2002 11:25:23 +0300588_windows-1255 Subject: Gedalya's shloshim: unveiling



For the last few days we have been gearing up emotionally to face today: the unveiling of Gedalya's headstone and the end of the most intense mourning period. At 3:30 we filed into the bus the army sent to take us to the cemetary, and at 4 p.m. we all gathered in the new military cemetary section where Gedalya is buried. Everyone began reading psalms and I went to look for Mira and the grandchildren. All of a sudden I saw a bus disgorge about 50 soldiers from the Golani Brigade who fought together with Gedalya [...] 12934 275 10_some humor0_15_Marshlf@aol.com29_Fri, 10 May 2002 07:27:51 EDT515_ISO-8859-1 Dennis Miller's rant on the Middle East crisis. You gotta love the guy:

> > "A brief overview of the situation is always valuable, so as a service to > all Americans who still don't get it, I now offer you the story of the > Middle East in just a few paragraphs, which is all you really need. Don't > thank me. I'm a giver. > > Here we go: > > > The Palestinians want their own country. There's just one thing > about that: There are no Palestinians. It's a made up word. Israel was > called [...] 13210 59 10_josie katz7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Fri, 10 May 2002 11:40:53 +0300377_iso-8859-1 Josie returned to live in Israel over a year ago. She can be reached through the company that put out her records that were made before she returned to America in the 80's. shabat shalom, pearl ----- Original Message ----- From: Marlene Goldfarb To: Sent: Friday, May 10, 2002 6:29 AM Subject: re: question [...] 13270 213 19_Shavuot Empowers Us12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Fri, 10 May 2002 23:18:59 +0200 13484 19 14_Re: some humor0_15_AvivaMT@aol.com29_Fri, 10 May 2002 16:42:41 EDT591_US-ASCII I had received this from my son who works for Young Judaea. Another person to whom he sent this corrected the original mailing to state that it was written by another actor/comedian named Larry Miller. The source can be accessed at: www.weekly standard.com

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 13504 102 38_Washington Post op ed from a refusenik11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Sat, 11 May 2002 10:17:46 -0400598_iso-8859-1 This soldier's viewpoint echos things I've been saying in this forum for as long as it has existed.

Noam

+++

washingtonpost.com

Why I Refuse to Fight for Sharon's Settlements

By David Zonsheine

Saturday, May 11, 2002; Page A25

TEL AVIV -- My parents instilled in me the notion that I must do everything for the state. In Israel, serving in the army is a central expression of that ethos. When I was a high school student, it was not only obvious to me that I would go to the Israeli Defense Force (IDF), but it was also vital that I [...] 13607 26 42_Re: Washington Post op ed from a refusenik0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Sat, 11 May 2002 12:29:29 EDT581_US-ASCII I firmly believe that dissidence is the earmark of democracy- But I wonder how this soldier would feel if it were his mother, father, sister, or brother who was murdered while doing ordinary daily chores. He has an obligation to defend his family; getting rid of the "cockroaches" who murder babies and innocent civilians is his duty. Sorry- I think many in the IDF feel as he does about the territories; I also know there are a majority of soldiers who behave as Gedalyahu Mellik behaved- giving cakes out to the children and suffering the dichotomy of being a good [...] 13634 165 42_RE: Washington Post op ed from a refusenik11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Sat, 11 May 2002 09:54:36 -0700401_iso-8859-1 noam Noam



Would you have us go back to pre-67 borders? If yes, how do you see protecting our people?

If no,then how do you justify holding the areas around Jerusalem?

I am not setting this up as a trick question. You seem to have given a lot of thought to this issue. I just want to know if you've thought of something that might have a chance of working. [...] 13800 54 42_Re: Washington Post op ed from a refusenik0_18_Brianscoop@aol.com29_Sat, 11 May 2002 12:59:19 EDT319_US-ASCII > Would you have us go back to pre-67 borders? If yes, how > do you see protecting our people?

Steve (it is Steve, yes? Please sign your posts),

Are you saying that the settlements protect Israel?

--brian





----------------------------- Brian Cooper brianscoop@aol.com 13855 19 10_Josie Katz16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Sat, 11 May 2002 13:49:57 -0400546_us-ascii If I recollect correctly, Josie Katz was for a time a member of an Israeli pop music group, the High Windows. They recorded a delightful humoresque "Reunion with the Reserves" just after the Six Day War.



------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 13875 48 42_Re: Washington Post op ed from a refusenik0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Sat, 11 May 2002 15:36:11 EDT623_US-ASCII Noam and Steve, It seems to me that we regularly interpret events from one perspective or another rather than seeing that the same event can have several (even conflicting) purposes, strategies, policies, etc. associated with it. For example: Check Points. The purpose of checkpoints is to prevent the flow of military supplies from one part of the territories to another and to prevent arms from entering Israel proper. It is also the purpose of the checkpoints to demonstrate who is in control of the territories. It is also the purpose of the checkpoints to encourage Palestinians to leave the territories [...] 13924 78 42_Re: Washington Post op ed from a refusenik11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Sat, 11 May 2002 15:35:19 -0400499_us-ascii Steve Klein wrote:

> noam > Noam > > Would you have us go back to pre-67 borders? If yes, how do you see > protecting our people? > > If no,then how do you justify holding the areas around Jerusalem? > > I am not setting this up as a trick question. You seem to have given a lot > of thought to this issue. I just want to know if you've thought of something > that might have a chance of working. > > Do you regard Maaleh Adumim as a "settlement"? French Hill? Would you give > [...] 14003 69 42_Re: Washington Post op ed from a refusenik0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com29_Sat, 11 May 2002 16:36:50 EDT549_US-ASCII To all my friends.

Which settlements should we keep?

We do not need to get into a long debate of exactly where to draw the green line. Whatever the green line is it does not included the 6000 settlers in GAZA who are gaurded by 7000 chayalim. So why don't we start there. Let's agree that the settlements in Gaza should go. And then we will work our way one by one. The neat thing is that as long as the Palestineans aren't interested in a deal, we can start selectively to dismantle the settlements and pick the ones we [...] 14073 120 16_Quote & Question12_Doug Greener25_ddwgreen@netvision.net.il31_Sun, 12 May 2002 16:50:30 +0300378_windows-1255 The following is a quote from the NY Times yesterday:

In Gaza itself, Palestinians braced for an Israeli attack, buying food and preparing booby traps for Israeli soldiers. At the Jabalya refugee camp, a militant stronghold that is home to 100,000 Palestinians, residents blocked entrances with mounds of rubble and sand. Gunmen wandered the alleyways. [...] 14194 74 20_Re: Quote & Question0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Sun, 12 May 2002 12:55:03 EDT591_US-ASCII Doug, To get at the root of this we must look to "occupy" rather than occupation with its multiple meanings. And therein we find a slippery slope. To occupy means to be present. Ala high school physics; two things cannot occupy the same space at the same time. (Let's avoid the complexities of particle physics, where we cannot be certain that even one thing can occupy a specific space at a specific instant of time.) We come next to the difference between national and individual occupancy, or state vs individual occupancy. There is only one state in area under discussion, [...] 14269 52 20_Re: Quote & Question0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com29_Sun, 12 May 2002 13:50:55 EDT578_US-ASCII In a message dated 5/12/02 10:29:55 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ddwgreen@netvision.net.il writes:



> Remember what they promised when their petition hit the headlines a few > months ago? That they will only speak in Hebrew, and not bring their > complaint to the foreign press where it could be used as a stick to beat > Israel. That promise has long been broken: they run to the foreign press > every chance they get. For their reason, I suggest we look to the early > Christians, who believed that their new faith was directed just at the > Jews. It [...] 14322 2057 31_FW: internships still available11_Jamie Levin22_mazkir@habonimdror.org31_Sun, 12 May 2002 14:18:43 -0400375_windows-1255 Internships available through the New Israel Fund/Shatil

Aleh V'Hagshem,

Jamie Levin Mazkir Tnua Habonim Dror North America

(p) 212-255-1796 (f) 212-929-3459 114 W. 26th St. #1004 NY, NY. 10001

Check out the Virtual Cheder Chinuch, an interactive online database of educational resources. click 'peulot' at www.habonimdror.org

16380 77 94_Press Release from May 11th Peace Coalition Rally (Meretz, Habonim Dror, Hashomer Hatzir, LZA)11_Jamie Levin22_mazkir@habonimdror.org31_Sun, 12 May 2002 15:26:10 -0400627_iso-8859-1 An Open Letter for Delivery to the Consulate of Israel in New York and the Mission of the Palestinian Authority to the United States

May 11, 2002

We have gathered today in front of your respective buildings to amplify the message of the Coalition for Peace which is rallying in Rabin Plaza in Tel Aviv at this same moment. As American Jews and Zionists affiliated with Meretz USA, Habonim Dror, Hashomer Hatzair, and the Labor Zionist Alliance, we have steadfastly advocated a just, negotiated peace between Israelis and Palestinians which would establish security for the State of Israel and its [...] 16458 148 73_from the Director, Jewish Studies Program, San Francisco State University16_Marlene Goldfarb29_msgold@postoffice.pacbell.net31_Sun, 12 May 2002 13:35:24 -0700306_us-ascii This is not a new story at San Francisco State University nor at the University of California at Davis. I attended campus Rallies in support of Israel six years ago, ten years ago, twenty years ago. Counter demonstrators trying to shout us down and threatening our lives is almost a "given". [...] 16607 83 38_Washington Post op ed from a refusenik12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Sun, 12 May 2002 23:45:16 +0200542_us-ascii Steve, You asked Noam >Would you have us go back to pre-67 borders? If yes, how do you see protecting our people? If no,then how do you justify holding the areas around Jerusalem? > I'm sure that Noam can answer for himself (probably for me too.) But if any number can play I'd like to put in my shekel-worth too (if present trends continue that's what two cents will be worth soon.) 1. I would go back to the pre-67 borders with minor modifications. 2. I would protect our people with the IDF. Let me amplify here and add that [...] 16691 26 22_Chadashot Proofreaders0_14_KBob24@aol.com29_Sun, 12 May 2002 20:58:52 EDT359_US-ASCII Folks:

2 years a few of your volunteered to proofread Chadashot, the Habonim Dror Foundation's newsletter. We have an issue coming out sonn and need some help again. If those of you who helped in the past are willing, that would be great. We are open to new folks as well. A very short term commitment but a big help. Please let me know. [...] 16718 38 26_RE: Chadashot Proofreaders11_Batel Libes25_batel_libes@earthlink.net31_Sun, 12 May 2002 19:34:29 -0700599_US-ASCII I'm in. Batel

-----Original Message----- From: owner-habonet@shamash.org [mailto:owner-habonet@shamash.org]On Behalf Of KBob24@aol.com Sent: Sunday, May 12, 2002 5:59 PM To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: Chadashot Proofreaders

Folks:

2 years a few of your volunteered to proofread Chadashot, the Habonim Dror Foundation's newsletter. We have an issue coming out sonn and need some help again. If those of you who helped in the past are willing, that would be great. We are open to new folks as well. A very short term commitment but a big help. Please let me know. [...] 16757 52 26_Re: Chadashot Proofreaders19_Orit Lowy Chicherio16_oritil@yahoo.com37_Sun, 12 May 2002 21:11:09 -0700 (PDT)521_us-ascii I'd love to help. Proofing is right up my alley. Orit

--- KBob24@aol.com wrote: > Folks: > > 2 years a few of your volunteered to proofread > Chadashot, the Habonim Dror > Foundation's newsletter. We have an issue > coming out sonn and need some help > again. If those of you who helped in the past > are willing, that would be > great. We are open to new folks as well. A very > short term commitment but a > big help. Please let me know. > > thanks in advance, > > Ken > > ------------------------ [...] 16810 43 33_Re: Josie Katz & the High Windows0_15_RONOREN@aol.com29_Mon, 13 May 2002 03:30:03 EDT642_US-ASCII FROM A PREVIOUS HABONET POSTING:

""

Is that it?! There's a little more about the High Windows--Chalanot Hagvohim. They are considered Israel's first "supergroup", with Josie joined by Arik Einstein and Shmulik Krausz. Their 1967 self-titled release is a classic, pretty much the first album of Israeli Pop; is on anyone's (who has made one!) Best Israeli Albums list; it features (arguably) the first Israeli [...] 16854 61 28_For All You Music Fans . . .12_Doug Greener25_ddwgreen@netvision.net.il31_Mon, 13 May 2002 08:31:44 +0300553_windows-1255 >About two weeks ago the singer Shakira appeared on MTV in front of a live >audience and talked to fans who called the studio. > >When an Israeli fan was put on the air, the singer refused >to speak with her saying she'd "rather have PIGS listening to her music >than Israelis." >What is amazing is a network as big and as influential as MTV did not >condemn Shakira's outburst. > >For those who have not heard of Shakira, she is a singer who is rated no.1 >in the world with her smash hit "whenever, wherever." >If you feel Shakira's [...] 16916 26 32_Re: For All You Music Fans . . .12_David Fleiss20_dfleiss@pipeline.com31_Mon, 13 May 2002 10:13:10 -0400 16943 67 32_Re: For All You Music Fans . . .20_Gayle, Mark and Ayah18_sarazen@rogers.com31_Mon, 13 May 2002 10:36:10 -0400738_Windows-1252 >From snopes.com...(http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/outrage/shakira.htm)

Claim: During a recent MTV appearance, singer Shakira said she'd rather have pigs listening to her music than Israelis. Status: False. Example: [Collected on the Internet, 2002]

____________________________________________________________________________ ______________ This week the singer Shakira appeared on MTV in front of a live audience and talked to fans who called the studio. When an Israeli fan was put on the air, the singer refused to speak to her saying she'd "rather have PIGS listening to her music than Israelis!" I think it is a disgrace that a person like her is given a platform to express her incredibly outrageous [...] 17011 96 42_RE: Washington Post op ed from a refusenik11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Mon, 13 May 2002 08:28:37 -0700469_US-ASCII I apologise for the belittling opening. I hadn't realised it would be taken that way. I didn't mean it to. It was only meant as an expression of frustration with the whole situation. Again, please accept my apology.

-----Original Message----- From: owner-habonet@shamash.org [mailto:owner-habonet@shamash.org]On Behalf Of Noam Stopak Sent: Saturday, May 11, 2002 12:35 PM To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: Re: Washington Post op ed from a refusenik [...] 17108 108 42_RE: Washington Post op ed from a refusenik11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Mon, 13 May 2002 08:34:25 -0700513_US-ASCII Brian, this is Steve

No, I think the settlements (the ones with few people and no way of sustaining themselves independently) only suck our energies and resources. I just wish that I thought that removing them would solve the problem.

Steve Klein -----Original Message----- From: owner-habonet@shamash.org [mailto:owner-habonet@shamash.org]On Behalf Of Brianscoop@aol.com Sent: Saturday, May 11, 2002 9:59 AM To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: Re: Washington Post op ed from a refusenik [...] 17217 114 42_Re: Washington Post op ed from a refusenik11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Mon, 13 May 2002 12:09:39 -0400589_us-ascii No problem Steve, sorry if I misinterpreted your intent.

I also responded substantively. Perhaps you could as well?

I'm especially interested in your questions about non-outlying settlements and how you resolve them yourself.

Regarding your message to Brian, and the comment about removing the isolated settlements not solving the problem, I think we need to recognize that there are many problems and the more of them that are solved, the more likely the others will be as well. Slow and careful but steady progress is what I believe may turn the tide. [...] 17332 38 24_Likud vote/Labor pullout20_Naomi Goldberg Honor18_naomijgh@yahoo.com37_Mon, 13 May 2002 09:29:05 -0700 (PDT)494_us-ascii Noam--

I had exactly the same reaction when I heard about the Likud vote this morning. Somehow this government has to be replaced with one that is willing to make some kind of move toward resolution and peace, and not just throwing more gasoline on the flames.

How do those in Israel see this latest development? Could this vote have gone any other way? was Sharon sincere in wanting to delay this, or was that just an effort to look more acceptable to the outside? [...] 17371 21 42_RE: Washington Post op ed from a refusenik0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com31_Mon, 13 May 2002 14:50:03 -0400394_iso-8859-1

No, I think the settlements (the ones with few people and no way of sustaining themselves independently) only suck our energies and resources. I just wish that I thought that removing them would solve the problem.

Steve Klein



Removing the settlements won't solve "the problem" It will solve a problem. It will solve the problem of the settlements. [...] 17393 48 42_RE: Washington Post op ed from a refusenik11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Mon, 13 May 2002 15:01:30 -0700514_iso-8859-1 Sam

Just so I know we're on the same page; are you speaking of the same problem that I am? And if so, why has it become a number one priority? Because it annoys the arabs? Because it annoys the French? The last two groups of people have sort of lost the right to bitch. Well, they can bitch; I meant they've lost the right to be listened to...........seriously. Yes, the settlements are a problem. Just a little down the list. Why do they seem to be suddenly a focus of such moral priority? [...] 17442 45 42_Re: Washington Post op ed from a refusenik0_18_Brianscoop@aol.com29_Mon, 13 May 2002 18:09:05 EDT582_US-ASCII > No, I think the settlements (the ones with few people and no > way of sustaining themselves independently) only suck our > energies and resources. I just wish that I thought that > removing them would solve the problem

Steve, Thanks for the helpful clarification. Of course, removing the settlements will not solve the whole problem. The problem as we know, will take a long time and many steps on both sides to near anything we can consider a solution. But removing them, or some of them, and freezing expansion are all important steps that need to be taken [...] 17488 159 42_RE: Washington Post op ed from a refusenik11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Mon, 13 May 2002 15:30:45 -0700558_us-ascii Noam

To quote you, what is so sacred about the pre-'67 borders? Your comment about not knowing geography throws me off a little. Was it meant facetiously? If not, my short answer is that that old "can-opener shape" , with the narrow part of Israel no more than 13 miles across (Is it that wide, even?), was and is an open invitation to incursions. When we HAD to put up with it, it was one thing. But to CHOOSE to live with it? That's just plain goofy. Why would anyone purposely choose vulnerability as an option? What about going back [...] 17648 82 72_settlements and borders (was Re: Washington Post op ed from a refusenik)11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Mon, 13 May 2002 19:00:25 -0400570_us-ascii Steve Klein wrote:

> Noam > > To quote you, what is so sacred about the pre-'67 borders?

Steve,

You asked if I was advocating going back to the pre-'67 borders. I was trying to say that I don't think they are particularly sacred, though much of the world seems (or claims) to accept them as such. I think that the "legislative history" of resolution 242 makes it clear that they are not sacred (or, if you prefer, they were defiled by Arab aggression in '67). I refer here to the discussions at the time about "all territories" vs the [...] 17731 42 42_Re: Washington Post op ed from a refusenik11_Sue Mackson16_susiem6@juno.com31_Mon, 13 May 2002 18:31:51 -0400614_- Amnon:

A minor detail regarding the following sentence of yours.:

"In America of the 60's suburban families who could not afford two or three cars, manicured lawns etc started moving back into the cities. They called them the exurbanites, I believe. How would I get them to move back?"



Exurbanites were in fact, those families who felt encroached by the unchic suburbs of the 1950s and who live in the more rural areas surrounding the suburbs, where there were NO sidewalks, NO buses, nothing but one's car and one's privacy. People were very much leaving the city in the '60s, [...] 17774 332 36_shloime perel recommended this story9_R. Shultz18_lzac@securenet.net31_Tue, 14 May 2002 03:25:22 -0400356_iso-8859-1 Children show the way As Israeli activists fight for their dream of peaceful co-existence, young Jews and Muslims are living it Olivia Ward - The Toronto Star, May 12, 2002



'WOULD YOU like to meet my friend?" says 9-year-old Noa Weiss-Simon, summoning her classmate, Ama Haik, who is watching her shyly from across the room. [...] 18107 40 42_Re: Washington Post op ed from a refusenik12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Tue, 14 May 2002 10:31:29 +0200303_us-ascii Susie, Thanks for the correction and for the emendation. Having left America in '48 there are whopping holes in my data base. I keep learning. Mekol melamdei hiskalti .. I have learned from all who've taught me and primarily from my pupils. Where do I know you from (ouch for the syntax.) [...] 18148 46 42_Re: Washington Post op ed from a refusenik0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com29_Tue, 14 May 2002 06:59:09 EDT576_US-ASCII The settlements are a problem because the are killing Israel. Thousands of troops are needed to gaurd them. That cost money and it takes the troops away from the crucial job of protecting Israel. In addition they have a way of getting huge subsidies which also kill the budget of Israel and keep other priorities from being funded. Also, the settlements are home to some of the most noxious and dangerous extremist in Israel. These are the folks that danced in the streets when Rabin was muirdered. Much of what the Army has to do is to protect the Palestineans [...] 18195 20 40_Re: shloime perel recommended this story0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Tue, 14 May 2002 12:35:18 EDT329_US-ASCII Under the guise of an article explaining the wonderful aims of the "Hand-in-Hand" schools, there creeps in ugly political agendas of Israeli critics. I was not happy with this- with what seemed at first to be an article about the importance of peace education and co-existence....to me, this is just more crap- sue [...] 18216 118 38_While we are talking about settlers...11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Tue, 14 May 2002 12:45:41 -0400402_us-ascii here's an unsettling piece from Haaretz

Noam (not Federman)

+++

They have made void your law By Avirama Golan

The four settlers arrested late last week on charges of plotting a hideous terror attack in A-Tur are innocent until proven guilty. One can only hope that pious Jews like these never actually intended to murder hundreds of children in a school yard. [...] 18335 31 40_Re: shloime perel recommended this story11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Tue, 14 May 2002 15:27:07 -0400372_us-ascii LiberHawke@aol.com wrote:

> Under the guise of an article explaining the wonderful aims of the > "Hand-in-Hand" schools, there creeps in ugly political agendas of Israeli > critics. I was not happy with this- with what seemed at first to be an > article about the importance of peace education and co-existence....to me, > this is just more crap- sue [...] 18367 33 42_Re: Washington Post op ed from a refusenik0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Tue, 14 May 2002 15:55:59 EDT619_US-ASCII Brien, I take no issue with the final proposition - that defense commanded by some settlements is not offset by their economic or political importance/value. I can't say the same for the first proposition, either as it relates to new or expanded settlements. In order for the importance of this proposition to be true, we must know/assume that the issues and complaints (Causes) asserted by the Palestinians, are truly reflective of their issues and concerns as opposed to make weight or diversionary issues with implied tactical value in moving toward the "end game." I note with some suspicion that the [...] 18401 41 42_Re: Washington Post op ed from a refusenik0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Tue, 14 May 2002 16:12:40 EDT564_US-ASCII Steve,

Am I hearing a call for Manifest Destiny Israel style? If I am, certainly a part of me is with you. "Jordan River or Bust" Many on Habonet will undoubtedly forecast Bust, but there is strong common sense logic to a border that corresponds with some natural geographical feature. The can opener as you describe it, is a function of the location of Jerusalem and its importance to both (all) sides. I think that there would have to be a significant trade off on the status of Jerusalem (or at least an Israeli offer to flush out its true [...] 18443 36 42_Re: Washington Post op ed from a refusenik0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Tue, 14 May 2002 16:26:10 EDT592_US-ASCII Susie, There is, and has always been a minor backflow of people into the cities. I believe the status of cities as socio-economic systems is improving now and the backflow increasing, but it may depend on the locality and other local factors. I don't know whether it is responsive to Amnon's question, but the suburbanization of the US was a response beginning in the 40's to the surge in new households, and concomitant demand for housing resulting from the return of GI's with all those pent up breeding urges, the influx of black southerners to northern cities, and the need [...] 18480 83 42_Re: Washington Post op ed from a refusenik7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Wed, 15 May 2002 00:57:11 +0300584_iso-8859-1 I have shown restraint, but I must react. There is hardly one sentence in the letter below that reflects the true situation. In fact, there are sentences below that are misleading, if not a downright lie, and reflect poorly on the writer rather than on the subject. As one who intimately knows many Jews who live in settlements, the vast majority do not resemble what is written below. They are Jews like all Jews, flesh of our flesh, and live law-abiding, normal, quiet lives. I dare to say that virtually 100% of the criminals and noxious elements in Israel's jails [...] 18564 21 24_Re: Deadline is near....0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Tue, 14 May 2002 18:36:43 EDT406_US-ASCII Hi Ken- I have not gotten any response from my workshop chevre- except from Abba Caspi- that they will participate- but I will try and design an 1/8 of a page ad- and you can bill me- I will try and collect something from people who show up....if you don't get anything from me in the next couple of days- it is because I have been swamped at work where the graphics program is..sue liberman [...] 18586 37 32_Machaneh Na'aleh Needs Your Help0_13_SC523@aol.com29_Wed, 15 May 2002 02:27:46 EDT448_UTF-8 Camp Na’aleh has additional space for campers and is seeking the assistance of the Habonet community in spreading the word among Northeastern state residents about the opportunity to enroll at Na’aleh.

Camp Na'aleh is located nearby in Shohola, Pennsylvania (near Port Jervis, New York), and is open to boys and girls ages 10 to 16. Na'aleh has 2, 4, and 6 week sessions. The camping season runs from June 30 until August 11. [...] 18624 25 23_the facts of the matter11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Wed, 15 May 2002 10:00:20 -0400356_us-ascii Apropos of the recent discussion about facts, the Washington Post has printed a Middle East history in a nutshell. This is a great step forward for the Post which often writes about the region as it if the problems emerged from nowhere yesterday without context. Sadly there are some glaring as well as some subtle problems with the article. [...] 18650 46 27_Re: the facts of the matter0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Wed, 15 May 2002 10:13:36 EDT277_US-ASCII In a message dated 5/15/2002 10:02:25 AM Eastern Daylight Time, stopak@orionsci.com writes:



> > www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/flash/world/israel/IsraelHistory_template.html. >

Noam, Please check the link. I tried and came up empty. Thanks, Dennis 18697 29 27_Re: the facts of the matter11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Wed, 15 May 2002 10:22:07 -0400521_us-ascii You may not have the "flash plugin" then. If you go to their front page (www.washingtonpost.com) you can find the link a little ways down - "Primer: One Land, Two Peoples". Thanks for taking a look.

Noam

DLerner569@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 5/15/2002 10:02:25 AM Eastern Daylight Time, stopak@orionsci.com writes: > >> www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/flash/world/israel/IsraelHistory_template.html. > > Noam, Please check the link. I tried and came up empty. > Thanks, > Dennis [...] 18727 26 26_Tom Friedman NYTimes Op Ed11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Wed, 15 May 2002 10:57:18 -0400340_us-ascii

Since the question of what problem are we trying to solve came up recently, perhaps the piece by Tom Friedman in todays NY Times is relevent? He points out that there are any number of different wars people are fighting in the Middle East today, and until that number is reduced it will be difficult to make progress. [...] 18754 36 65_just plain goofy (was Re: Washington Post op ed from a refusenik)11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Wed, 15 May 2002 11:13:42 -0400494_us-ascii Steve Klein wrote:

> Noam > ...my short answer is that that old "can-opener shape" , > with the narrow part of Israel no more than 13 miles across (Is it that > wide, even?), was and is an open invitation to incursions. When we HAD to > put up with it, it was one thing. But to CHOOSE to live with it? That's > just plain goofy. Why would anyone purposely choose vulnerability as an > option? What about going back to the original U.N. lines? Make it make > sense, please! [...] 18791 60 15_Shloime's story16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Wed, 15 May 2002 11:36:55 -0400594_us-ascii Reuven Shultz posted the following in Habonet 2238

> But some on the less-popular far left say the blame is more widespread. They > say Barak helped to create a deal that was unacceptable to the Palestinians, > then gave up on negotiations. > This is a common plaint amongst the PN crowd. I guess they mean that it's somehow poor Barak's fault that Arafat (apparently?) came to Camp David unprepared, made no counter-offers to Barak nor presented any proposals of his own, then rejected the whole thing. Taba, of course, was negotiation (by Israel) under fire. Arafat is a [...] 18852 179 36_shloime perel recommended this story12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Wed, 15 May 2002 21:19:29 +0200592_iso-8859-1 Sue, You may remember my saying that my second most favorite author is Samuel Langhorne Clemens. His Jewish name was Mark Twain. He rates just behind my number one Jewish wit, Sholem Aleichem. They shared the gift of imparting a message whose ingenuity or verbal skill or incongruity had the power to evoke laughter. Sholem Aleichem is ahead on points, his humor was a laughter distilled out of tears. Now I'll try to connect Mark Twain to the story shloime perel recommended. In Twain's definition Olivia Ward - The Toronto Star writer is an expert. And he defined an expert [...] 19032 35 19_Re: Shloime's story11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Wed, 15 May 2002 14:34:46 -0400583_us-ascii



"Elihu D. Davison" wrote:

> Reuven Shultz posted the following in Habonet 2238 > >> But some on the less-popular far left say the blame is more widespread. They >> say Barak helped to create a deal that was unacceptable to the Palestinians, >> then gave up on negotiations. >> > This is a common plaint amongst the PN crowd. I guess they mean that it's somehow poor Barak's fault that Arafat (apparently?) came to Camp David unprepared, made no counter-offers to Barak nor presented any proposals of his own, then rejected the > whole thing. ... [...] 19068 42 40_Re: driver toward a realistic settlement11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Wed, 15 May 2002 14:35:15 -0400389_us-ascii DLerner569@aol.com wrote:

> ...If Israel stops, there > is some possibility that it will ring a breakthrough response from the other > side, but it is an absolute certainty that one of the tangible drivers toward > a realistic settlement is lost.

I couldn't disagree more. Settlement activity is certainly absolutely NOT a driver toward a realistic settlement. [...] 19111 110 40_Re: driver toward a realistic settlement0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Wed, 15 May 2002 16:38:33 EDT574_US-ASCII Noam, Let me address your PS first. You are right of course that Israel has received large volumes of aid. Much of it military - which means the US treasury picks up the cost of US supplied military goods - It has never been my impression that those dollars were, or even could be siphoned off into the pockets of government leaders or functionaries. It has also never been my impression that Israel was interested in continuing that level of aid beyond that level required to assure Israel's security. As to reparations, well, its a slippery slope. I think I [...] 19222 65 68_Re: shloime perel recommended this story-For Amnon- bear wth me.....0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Wed, 15 May 2002 18:11:43 EDT387_US-ASCII

In a message dated 5/16/02 2:20:00 AM, amriv@netvision.net.il writes:

<< Yet she has, for me an incredible advantage over all other reporters. She

likes my grand-daughter Noa and her best friend Amal :) and she is taken

with the fact that >by standing hand in hand in a suburb of Jerusalem,

they are committing a revolutionary act. > >> [...] 19288 88 9_Nine wars0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com29_Wed, 15 May 2002 20:03:32 EDT581_US-ASCII

Nine Wars Too Many By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN





If I were making a movie of the Arab-Israeli conflict today I would call it "Ten Wars and a Funeral." Because the biggest problem in resolving this conflict is that there are at least 10 different wars being fought over Israel-Palestine, and we need to reduce them to just one to have any chance of making peace. Let's run down the list: A majority of Israelis are fighting a war for the right of a Jewish state to exist in the Middle East, roughly along the pre-1967 borders. But a minority in [...] 19377 113 41_Weekly Standard-Saudia Arabia involvement13_moshe sheskin24_moshes7@netvision.net.il55_Wed, 15 May 2002 20:03:48 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time)305_iso-8859-1 The Weekly Standard has an interesting article on Saudi Arabia involvement with terrorists etc.

If you wish to receive the article as it is, just contact me. Otherwise, you can read it at:

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/001/232hpdph asp

Moshe 19491 109 40_FW: driver toward a realistic settlement11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Wed, 15 May 2002 23:00:32 -0700672_us-ascii



-----Original Message----- From: Steve Klein [mailto:kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com] Sent: Wednesday, May 15, 2002 4:52 PM To: kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com Subject: RE: driver toward a realistic settlement



Noam

Please excuse my getting into the discussion with Dennis. You mentioned the 3 billion. It caught my eye because I've never heard it brought up before by a friend of Israel, but rather by people that had a negative agenda toward Israel (or just Jews) in the first place. You have provided me with a new experience. There's never an end to the surprises. But since you have brought it up, please let me give you what [...] 19601 31 11_Re: siphons11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Thu, 16 May 2002 05:46:01 -0400404_us-ascii DLerner569@aol.com wrote:

> Noam, > Let me address your PS first. You are right of course that Israel has received large volumes of aid. Much of it military - which means the US treasury picks up the cost of US supplied military goods - It has never been my impression that those dollars > were, or even could be siphoned off into the pockets of government leaders or functionaries. [...] 19633 45 44_Re: FW: driver toward a realistic settlement11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Thu, 16 May 2002 05:56:15 -0400523_us-ascii Steve Klein wrote:

> Noam > > Please excuse my getting into the discussion with Dennis. You mentioned the > 3 billion. It caught my eye because I've never heard it brought up before by > a friend of Israel, but rather by people that had a negative agenda toward > Israel (or just Jews) in the first place. You have provided me with a new > experience. There's never an end to the surprises. > But since you have brought it up, please let me give you what I know about > it. Perhaps, if you are open to [...] 19679 66 27_And the children shall lead0_14_LHIAM1@aol.com29_Thu, 16 May 2002 10:16:50 EDT574_US-ASCII Susie- Yesterday was Noa's birthday. She turned 9 yesterday, the age that most of us first became Amelim and were introduced to the radical lifestyle of Habonim camp. Where we were taught that if we all ate candy together and called it kupa that social justice would explode across the face the earth and all men (and women) would be free. Kupa may not have been as revolutionary an idea as "hand and hand" but the thought of instilling at so young and impressionable an age the concept of equality and social justice has been a successful experiment for most [...] 19746 275 62_Answer to Elihu Davison, and Peres' Post Camp David Assessment9_R. Shultz18_lzac@securenet.net31_Thu, 16 May 2002 10:18:53 -0400621_iso-8859-1

Elihu Davison Wrote:

Reuven Shultz posted the following in Habonet 2238 But some on the less-popular far left say the blame is more widespread. They say Barak helped to create a deal that was unacceptable to the Palestinians, then gave up on negotiations. This is a common plaint amongst the PN crowd. I guess they mean that it's somehow poor Barak's fault that Arafat (apparently?) came to Camp David unprepared, made no counter-offers to Barak nor presented any proposals of his own, then rejected the whole thing. Taba, of course, was negotiation (by Israel) under fire. Arafat is a bit [...] 20022 21 44_Re: FW: driver toward a realistic settlement0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Thu, 16 May 2002 11:49:30 EDT348_US-ASCII Steve, I appreciate the added detail, but I said that the money is in the form of credits to purchase American weaponry. I don't feel that Israel is beholden to the US. I don't feel guilt for the money. The point I made, as I recall was that the money, being related to defense, would be impacted by a secure peace. You agree? Dennis [...] 20044 40 31_Re: And the children shall lead0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Thu, 16 May 2002 13:28:33 EDT289_US-ASCII

In a message dated 5/16/02 10:17:42 PM, LHIAM1@aol.com writes:

<< Perhaps this rings of propaganda to you - for Noa this IS her day to day life. You claim that you are looking for a "glint of hope" I ask you Susie just what do you think you are hoping for? >> [...] 20085 86 44_RE: FW: driver toward a realistic settlement11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Thu, 16 May 2002 13:12:58 -0700366_US-ASCII Noam

Not ungrateful at all. A day doesn't go by that I don't offer up thanks to G-d that America exists, that I am lucky to have been born into it, and lucky to have a part in one of the most exciting social experiments in history. Am am truly grateful for the freedom, the privilege , the security, and all the physical, geographical grandeur. [...] 20172 41 44_RE: FW: driver toward a realistic settlement11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Thu, 16 May 2002 13:13:42 -0700684_US-ASCII Dennis

Hi

I am in total agreement with you. I was responding to some of Noam's points.

Steve Klein

-----Original Message----- From: owner-habonet@shamash.org [mailto:owner-habonet@shamash.org]On Behalf Of DLerner569@aol.com Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2002 8:50 AM To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: Re: FW: driver toward a realistic settlement



Steve, I appreciate the added detail, but I said that the money is in the form of credits to purchase American weaponry. I don't feel that Israel is beholden to the US. I don't feel guilt for the money. The point I made, as I recall was that the money, being related to defense, would be [...] 20214 23 6_Please11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Thu, 16 May 2002 13:17:45 -0700508_iso-8859-1 Dear fellow members

I will be out of town a couple of days. Please do not post anything provocative or controversial 'til I get back.

Love

Steve Klein

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 20238 103 103_=?iso-8859-1?B?5PLh+OQ6IElkZW50aXR5IHRoZWZ0IC0geW91IHNob3VsZCBjaGVjayB0?= =?iso-8859-1?B?aGlzIG91dA==?=8_ericmoli25_ericmoli@netvision.net.il31_Thu, 16 May 2002 23:16:26 +0200683_iso-8859-1

----- Original Message ----- From: Pnina Some To: Mollie Eric Marx ; Roni E Some ; Roie Some ; Barbara Norm Some ; Sam Blatt ; Lillian Liss ; Helen & Lionel Koven ; Shirley Promnick ; Dena Satinoff ; Will Usher ; Joe Hersh ; Connie Campbell ; Joe Ida Schwarcz Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2002 8:22 AM Subject: Fw: Identity theft - you should check this out [...] 20342 43 44_Re: FW: driver toward a realistic settlement13_Yuval Warshai16_warshais@tir.com31_Thu, 16 May 2002 16:35:05 -0400586_iso-8859-1 Well, I have heard many people simply say that all this complicated game of interests supposedly being described in the present email exchange is more simply put, just the efficacy of the Jewish lobby in America in controlling congress. When you hear these days Democrats in congress from southern states, or even from New York, talking in the same tone and enumerating the same elements for a diplomatic solution as Bibi or Sharon advocate or demand daily as a matter of fact, you (I do, at least) start to wonder. What is really happening here? One thing is for sure: [...] 20386 36 21_scary stuff from SFSU0_15_DebALev@aol.com29_Thu, 16 May 2002 17:01:36 EDT752_US-ASCII

[See URL for poster]

http://cosmology.berkeley.edu/%7Earmel/bloodlibel.html

Scott Armel-Funkhouser

This poster, funded by the Associated Students of San Francisco State University, was posted on campus in April2002. This is perhaps the most grotesque and explicit incarnation of the "blood libel" observed in the free world since the Nazi Holocaust. It was generated on the campus of a public university by students, using public money. The poster included the names of the following organizations: Associated Students, GUPS (General Union of Palestinian Students), MSA (Muslim Student Association) and WIA (unidentified). The poster incorporates the two most common elements to this medieval racist slur. It [...] 20423 19 21_search for a relative0_14_Neal45@aol.com29_Thu, 16 May 2002 17:06:08 EDT507_US-ASCII Would somebody in Israel be kind enough to help me locate a man by the name of Israel Leshman, maybe still living in Ramat Gan. Please respond to me privately Neal Cassorla

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 20443 52 25_Re: scary stuff from SFSU11_Greg Taylor25_gttaylor@worldnet.att.net31_Thu, 16 May 2002 17:36:20 -0400456_iso-8859-1 The President of SFSU responded strongly to the posters mentioned in Deb's email. His response can be read in the SFSU website: www.sfsu.edu. Once you're at the home page, click on the SFSU's Response box and it will link you to the President's remarks and other comments.

Cindy Taylor ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2002 5:01 PM Subject: scary stuff from SFSU [...] 20496 79 25_RE: scary stuff from SFSU11_Batel Libes25_batel_libes@earthlink.net31_Thu, 16 May 2002 14:46:05 -0700436_US-ASCII With the events taking place on campus, the University President's remarks, and the local media continuing to slant its coverage, it's not much of a surprise that this is happening. The SF Chronicle's headline for the protest was: "SFSU studies rally tapes for misconduct Pro-Israel students clashed with supporters of Palestinians," waiting until paragraph 8 to mention that the pro-Israeli students were being attacked. [...] 20576 67 25_RE: scary stuff from SFSU11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org31_Thu, 16 May 2002 17:02:42 -0500407_us-ascii There was an article about this in today's Jerusalem Post. Here it is:

May. 16, 2002 Anti-Semitic riot at San Francisco State University By MELISSA RADLER NEW YORK

After being surrounded by a mob of students shouting, "Hitler didn't finish the job," and "Get out or we'll kill you," pro-Israel students at San Francisco State University are finally finding an ally against hate. [...] 20644 46 44_Re: FW: driver toward a realistic settlement0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com29_Thu, 16 May 2002 18:08:48 EDT366_US-ASCII In a message dated 5/16/02 1:59:47 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com writes:



> There is no reason > for you or any other Jew to feel compromised whenever the subject of the > money comes up. It is America that is beholden; not Israel. >

This has got to be the most incredibly, ridiculous statements I have ever read. 20691 18 10_Re: Please0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Thu, 16 May 2002 18:14:10 EDT371_US-ASCII Steve, Not much risk of that. Dennis

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 20710 44 12_chag sameach0_18_Brianscoop@aol.com29_Thu, 16 May 2002 18:16:43 EDT179_US-ASCII Chag Shavuoth Sameach. I expect full reports on tonight's efforts at Tikun Olam.

brian



----------------------------- Brian Cooper brianscoop@aol.com 20755 127 44_RE: FW: driver toward a realistic settlement11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Thu, 16 May 2002 20:12:27 -0700611_US-ASCII Richard

First of all, I was not writing to you. Why are you reading other people's mail?

About the level of ridiculousness of my statement. You must have led a really sheltered life up until now. I am sorry. And please let me voice my shame by stating.... I'm sorry.

Love

Steve Klein P.S. Now, for real. No more controversy! -----Original Message----- From: owner-habonet@shamash.org [mailto:owner-habonet@shamash.org]On Behalf Of Richardrdsmith@aol.com Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2002 3:09 PM To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: Re: FW: driver toward a realistic settlement [...] 20883 41 44_Re: FW: driver toward a realistic settlement0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com29_Fri, 17 May 2002 05:50:20 EDT348_US-ASCII In a message dated 5/16/02 11:11:30 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com writes:



> About the level of ridiculousness of my statement. You must have led a >

Perhaps I was a bit hyperbolic in my statement, that America is beholding to Israel is only the most ridiculous statement I have read on Habonet. 20925 20 3_$$$16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Fri, 17 May 2002 10:27:36 -0400617_us-ascii Most of the annual $3 billion in US aid to Israel actually never goes to Israel but instead is spent here. Beneficiaries include Northrop, MacDonald-Douglas-Boeing, General Dynamics, GE, United Technologies, Daimler-Chrysler, Colt, Smith & Wesson, etc. etc. Get the picture?



------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 20946 88 44_RE: FW: driver toward a realistic settlement11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Fri, 17 May 2002 09:27:00 -0700508_US-ASCII Thank you -----Original Message----- From: owner-habonet@shamash.org [mailto:owner-habonet@shamash.org]On Behalf Of Richardrdsmith@aol.com Sent: Friday, May 17, 2002 2:50 AM To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: Re: FW: driver toward a realistic settlement



In a message dated 5/16/02 11:11:30 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com writes:





About the level of ridiculousness of my statement. You must have led a really sheltered life up until now. [...] 21035 47 7_Re: $$$0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com29_Fri, 17 May 2002 16:04:22 EDT406_US-ASCII In a message dated 5/17/02 10:27:54 AM Eastern Daylight Time, EliD@worldnet.att.net writes:



> Most of the annual $3 billion in US aid to Israel actually never goes to > Israel but instead is spent here. Beneficiaries include Northrop, > MacDonald-Douglas-Boeing, General Dynamics, GE, United Technologies, > Daimler-Chrysler, Colt, Smith & Wesson, etc. etc. Get the picture? > [...] 21083 175 32_LZ Solidarity trip - help wanted13_Joel Winograd15_mail@jelaco.com31_Fri, 17 May 2002 17:27:49 -0500574_ISO-8859-1 Hi all,

The current solidarity trips are set for Aug 2-11 and Aug 23-Sep 1. We have received heartwarming support and interest from people in Israel. Now we need you to come! If we could get at least one person from each Workshop year on these initial trips, that would be a resounding success. Perhaps several people from each kvutzah would like to go; combining reunion and good deeds. If you never made Workshop, here is another chance to put your pioneering spirit into action. If you haven't been to Israel for awhile, here is a chance to go and [...] 21259 285 14_Soul Searching9_R. Shultz18_lzac@securenet.net31_Fri, 17 May 2002 18:39:20 -0400628_iso-8859-1



The New York Observer May 17, 2002

108 rabbis-to-be sign in sympathy with Palestinians

by Philip Weiss

Before me on my desk is a powerful document, a letter to American Jewish leaders calling on them to recognize the suffering that Israel has caused the Palestinians during its 35-year occupation of the West Bank. But the body of the letter is not as powerful as its second page, which is filled with the names of 108 rabbinical students. The letter represents a challenge to mainstream Jewish opinion on the Middle East from the very heart of the community, from the young [...] 21545 190 40_From the Wall Street Journal/ Wonderland11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org31_Fri, 17 May 2002 18:04:19 -0500411_us-ascii WONDER LAND

How Our Age Dumbed Down Even Invective The hateful things people say when words aren't allowed to hurt.

BY DANIEL HENNINGER Friday, May 17, 2002 12:01 a.m. EDT

If words could speak, they would howl at their abusers.

"Hitler should have finished the job" (San Francisco State).

"Jenin=Auschwitz" (Pro-Palestinian rally in Washington, D.C., April 19). [...] 21736 176 12_Man Of Peace11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org31_Fri, 17 May 2002 18:05:46 -0500625_us-ascii MAN OF PEACE

'We Need a Palestinian Mandela' Meet Omar Karsou, a moderate in a land of extremes.

BY ROBERT L. POLLOCK Friday, May 17, 2002 12:01 a.m. EDT

Just days ago conventional wisdom was that Israel's recent invasion of the West Bank had only strengthened Yasser Arafat's hand by forcing Palestinians to rally behind their leader. But as he ventured out of Ramallah this week, Arafat was met by sparse crowds, and he canceled plans to visit the Jenin refugee camp for fear of being heckled, or worse. Such discontent apparently led to Arafat's unprecedented speech Wednesday, in which [...] 21913 110 29_re article from National Post13_moshe sheskin24_moshes7@netvision.net.il55_Sun, 19 May 2002 08:46:19 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time)161_iso-8859-1 >From today's National Post:

Recommended:

Moshe

http://www.nationalpost.com/commentary/story.html?f=/stories/20020518/269776.html 22024 119 27_The Middle East: What Next?11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org31_Sun, 19 May 2002 11:03:22 -0500653_ISO-8859-1

>> > > >The Middle East: What Next? > >By >Dr. Robert O. Freedman > > > With the end of the Israeli occupation of Ramallah and Bethlehem, >the question arises as to how to move the peace process forward. Ideas >being raised include the convening of an international conference, the >reform and democratization of the Palestinian Authority, and the >reestablishment of security cooperation between Israeli and Palestinian >security services. Unfortunately, each of these ideas have serious flaws, >and there appear to be many pitfalls on the path to an Israeli-Palestinian >agreement. > > The idea of an international conference, [...] 22144 89 40_FWD: The Second On-line Zionist Congress11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org31_Sun, 19 May 2002 11:09:41 -0500651_ISO-8859-1

---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: JewishWorld Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 16:30:48 +0300

> The Second On-line Zionist Congress > > The 34th World Zionist Congress will open in Jerusalem on 17 June 2002. > Congress2: The Second On-line Zionist Congress opens right now on your > computer screen. > > > > Following upon the success of the Virtual Zionist Congress 4 years ago, > Congress2 is another opportunity for Jews around the world to participate > in online discussions on a wide range of immediate and long-range issues. > In this way they will also have an [...] 22234 82 54_Jerusalem Post: Government Panel to redefine 'kibbutz'11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org31_Mon, 20 May 2002 07:20:49 -0500673_us-ascii

May. 19, 2002 Gov't panel to redefine 'kibbutz' By HERB KEINON



The government yesterday established a committee to discuss whether to formally change the legal definition of a kibbutz, a process that could lead to a number of drastic changes for the kibbutz movements.



The committee will be made up of 11 people, including leading academic experts on kibbutz life and a number of kibbutz leaders, and is expected to present its conclusions within six months. Justice Minister Meir Sheetrit, who initiated the establishment of the committee, said it will discuss the legal definition of kibbutzim a definition which until [...] 22317 36 58_Re: Jerusalem Post: Government Panel to redefine 'kibbutz'3_avi16_avi@gezer.org.il31_Mon, 20 May 2002 15:26:24 +0200657_us-ascii Uh oh. Party's over folks.



At 07:20 20/05/02 -0500, you wrote: >The government yesterday established a committee to >discuss whether to formally change the legal >definition of a kibbutz, a process that could lead to >a number of drastic changes for the kibbutz movements. > >The committee will be made up of 11 people, including >leading academic experts on kibbutz life and a number >of kibbutz leaders, and is expected to present its >conclusions within six months. >Justice Minister Meir Sheetrit, who initiated the >establishment of the committee, said it will discuss >the legal definition of kibbutzim a definition which [...] 22354 80 7_Kibbutz16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Mon, 20 May 2002 10:15:51 -0400512_us-ascii May. 19, 2002 / Jerusalem Post Gov't panel to redefine 'kibbutz' By HERB KEINON



The government yesterday established a committee to discuss whether to formally change the legal definition of a kibbutz, a process that could lead to a number of drastic changes for the kibbutz movements.

The committee will be made up of 11 people, including leading academic experts on kibbutz life and a number of kibbutz leaders, and is expected to present its conclusions within six months. [...] 22435 132 46_kibbutz privatization and government committee13_moshe sheskin24_moshes7@netvision.net.il55_Mon, 20 May 2002 11:17:08 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time)591_iso-8859-1 shalom Chevreh, I read the article in the Jerusalem Post, "Gov't panel to redefine kiibbutz'" I will admit however that I'm completely confused. Part of the equation is missing. On one hand you have Sharon, who seems to place a lot of importance on the isse and looks at kibbutzim, positively. On the other hand, you have the Shaasnikim and some Likudnikim that are negative. The article quotes Yishai who acts like it's a fait accompli and the kibbutzim will cost the government billions. I think that the important part is Mas Hachnasah. If they insist and implement a law [...] 22568 65 49_=?x-user-defined?B?5PLh+OQ6IChubyBzdWJqZWN0KQ==?=8_ericmoli25_ericmoli@netvision.net.il31_Mon, 20 May 2002 22:01:06 +0200634_x-user-defined

----- Original Message ----- From: Jack Penciner To: Batya Penciner ; Sefi Netzer ; Tsvikah Netser ; Dvora Netser ; Arny Colodner ; Bernice & Yitz Penciner ; Arny Eisenberg ; Mollie & Eric Marx ; Sima & George Schwager ; george marcus ; George Fleischmann Sent: Monday, May 20, 2002 9:17 AM Subject: (no subject) [...] 22634 39 53_Re: =?x-user-defined?B?5PLh+OQ6IChubyBzdWJqZWN0KQ==?=0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Mon, 20 May 2002 16:27:57 EDT551_US-ASCII I am acquiring a new relative. My daughter is marrying a young man in June. Mary and I went down to LI to attend the Uf Ruff this weekend. A reformed Temple Uf Ruf on Friday night is a major non-event, but anyway...

My son-in-law's father tells me about his friend who is lying on his death bed. Literally. His daughters and the rabbi are there with him. Its very quiet as they listen to his labored breathing with intermittent pauses and starts. He opens one eye and his daughter bends over to ask, "What is it Papa?" He smiles, [...] 22674 59 47_=?US-ASCII?B?UkU6IGFvYW9hOiAobm8gc3ViamVjdCk=?=11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Mon, 20 May 2002 15:39:33 -0700564_US-ASCII Dennis

MAZAL TOV! More later (just got back from Mexico)

Love

Steve Klein

-----Original Message----- From: owner-habonet@shamash.org [mailto:owner-habonet@shamash.org]On Behalf Of DLerner569@aol.com Sent: Monday, May 20, 2002 1:28 PM To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: Re: aoaoa: (no subject)



I am acquiring a new relative. My daughter is marrying a young man in June. Mary and I went down to LI to attend the Uf Ruff this weekend. A reformed Temple Uf Ruf on Friday night is a major non-event, but anyway... [...] 22734 113 7_RE: $$$11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Mon, 20 May 2002 15:47:04 -0700476_US-ASCII Hey Richard! I'm back! Now where were we?

I'm looking this message over, and can't quite figure out the point. Please help.

Steve Klein -----Original Message----- From: owner-habonet@shamash.org [mailto:owner-habonet@shamash.org]On Behalf Of Richardrdsmith@aol.com Sent: Friday, May 17, 2002 1:04 PM To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: Re: $$$



In a message dated 5/17/02 10:27:54 AM Eastern Daylight Time, EliD@worldnet.att.net writes: [...] 22848 41 7_Re: $$$0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com29_Mon, 20 May 2002 18:54:42 EDT374_US-ASCII I believe the writer was making the point that the money given to Israel actually goes to American defense contractors and I guess he was implying that that is the reason the U.S. gives this money to Israel, to help our defense industry. I merely said that I still think the major beneficiary was the Israeli people whose defense is dependent on these monies. [...] 22890 34 7_Re: $$$0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Mon, 20 May 2002 19:36:17 EDT611_US-ASCII Richard,

Like every transaction both parties feel they are getting the better of it (from their point of view). Unless the assumption we are to make is that the US is giving Israel charity, whether as guilt money (there is plenty of justification in the history of the W.W.II years) or from true eleemosynary instincts (we're talking from the Republican right wing remember). My inclination is to go with the bargain approach. The Jews of the US tend to appreciate and respond to politicians who support Israel. Aid expenditures in the form of credits for purchase of American products are [...] 22925 67 42_Re: Washington Post op ed from a refusenik11_Sue Mackson16_susiem6@juno.com31_Mon, 20 May 2002 20:55:58 -0400538_- 9th Workshop, the one you took over and gave a moralizing speech to before we arrived artza. I was Susie Kallen.

On Tue, 14 May 2002 10:31:29 +0200 Amnon Hadary writes: > Susie, > Thanks for the correction and for the emendation. Having left > America in > '48 there are whopping holes in my data base. I keep learning. > Mekol > melamdei hiskalti .. I have learned from all who've taught me and > primarily > from my pupils. Where do I know you from (ouch for the syntax.) > > Amnon > > Amnon: > A [...] 22993 45 23_Re: HABONET digest 224312_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Tue, 21 May 2002 08:07:12 +0200629_us-ascii Hi Susie, Thanks. Probably guilty as charged. Your notes show that you are ahead on points. a) you remember; b) you were listening; c) already then you were perspicacious and could recognize moralizing. This is a valuable skill and very necessary when reading Habonet. Again, thank you. Amnon

At 00:13 21/05/02 -0400, you wrote: >Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 20:55:58 -0400 >From: Sue Mackson >Subject: Re: Washington Post op ed from a refusenik >To: habonet@shamash.org > >9th Workshop, the one you took over and gave a moralizing speech to >before we arrived artza. >I was Susie Kallen. > >On [...] 23039 126 39_Ridiculous statements and Richard Smith11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Tue, 21 May 2002 06:37:31 -0700425_US-ASCII NOW I understand. Richard, it is the fact that Habonet is loading up on ridiculous statements that has you all atwirl. Mine merely sent you over the top. I didn't realise that some of us might be on overload. Sorry again.

I just got back from Mexico. Great vacation. A few days away from the computer screen could do ya a lot of good. I swear. I feel like a new person, ready do get back into the scrap. [...] 23166 139 64_NYT - Israel Arrests Settlers it Says Tried to Bomb Palestinians11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Tue, 21 May 2002 12:29:40 -0400358_iso-8859-1 More about those often maligned, non-fanatical folks who live in the settlements from the May 19 NY Times. Their use of a "security car" calls to mind the participation of the various PA "security services" in terrorist activity, and the choice of targets also takes me back to the worst of the Palestinian attacks targeting school children. [...] 23306 64 25_Re: Ridiculous statements14_Holtzer Family20_carmdave@urim.org.il31_Tue, 21 May 2002 17:14:53 +0200397_iso-8859-1 If anyone wants to donate money to Israel and know for certain that it is 1) going to Israel and 2) will be used for a good cause, my kibbutz really needs a security fence. Our old one is over 40 years old and won't stop anything or anyone. The Army/ Defense Ministry won't earmark money for a new fence because we're about a mile outside the security zone defined as border...... [...] 23371 262 26_FWD: 20 Facts about Israel11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org31_Tue, 21 May 2002 11:49:58 -0500657_ISO-8859-1





Bill Bennett, Jack Kemp, and Jeane Kirkpatrick

Twenty Facts about Israel and the Middle East



http://www.NewsAndOpinion.com | The world's attention has been focused on the Middle East. We are confronted daily with scenes of carnage and destruction. Can we understand such violence? Yes, but only if we come to the situation with a solid grounding in the facts of the matter—facts that too often are forgotten, if ever they were learned. Below are twenty facts that we think are useful in understanding the current situation, how we arrived here, and how we might eventually arrive at a solution. [...] 23634 28 24_Half full or half empty?11_Don Goelman25_don.goelman@villanova.edu31_Tue, 21 May 2002 13:42:58 -0400596_us-ascii .. or, we could look at the account as demonstrating the worth of Mishteret Yisrael and the Israeli judiciary, which calls to mind l'havdil the collusion of the PA with the worst of Palestinian terrorism.

Noam Stopak wrote:

> More about those often maligned, non-fanatical folks who live > in the settlements from the May 19 NY Times. Their use of a > "security car" calls to mind the participation of the various PA > "security services" in terrorist activity, and the choice of targets > also takes me back to the worst of the Palestinian attacks > targeting school [...] 23663 41 28_Re: Half full or half empty?11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Tue, 21 May 2002 13:56:45 -0400533_us-ascii Don Goelman wrote:

> .. or, we could look at the account as demonstrating the worth of > Mishteret Yisrael and the Israeli judiciary, which calls to mind l'havdil > the collusion of the PA with the worst of Palestinian terrorism.

Fair enough.

For what it's worth, back during the Barak government, Ephriam Sneh, then deputy Minister of Defense, spoke at an LZA gathering in Maryland and indicated that the PA was working quite successfully to thwart terrorist activity at that time (October 1999). [...] 23705 195 7_Re: $$$7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Wed, 22 May 2002 00:32:51 +0300593_ISO-8859-1 I once read a report on the equation, and it is definitely true that America gains as much and more from the relationship as does Israel. I happen to have been privy to one example which was mind-boggling in its import. At one time I worked in the Technion in the Aeronautics Building, helping to organize The Sam Neiman Institute of Higher Learning (something like what exists in Princeton). At one point I was taken down into the basement of the building and was shown an airplane motor completely covered with ceramic coating. Nobody understood what the ceramic coating was [...] 23901 195 35_Re: $$$- value for money v'od eich!7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Wed, 22 May 2002 00:33:03 +0300593_ISO-8859-1 I once read a report on the equation, and it is definitely true that America gains as much and more from the relationship as does Israel. I happen to have been privy to one example which was mind-boggling in its import. At one time I worked in the Technion in the Aeronautics Building, helping to organize The Sam Neiman Institute of Higher Learning (something like what exists in Princeton). At one point I was taken down into the basement of the building and was shown an airplane motor completely covered with ceramic coating. Nobody understood what the ceramic coating was [...] 24097 24 28_Re: Half full or half empty?4_Meir21_meir_h@maccabi.org.il31_Wed, 22 May 2002 00:41:23 +0200621_iso-8859-1 Oops.

That's one of my buttons.

It is NOT important whether the cup is half empty or half full. What IS important is if it is filling up or emptying out. ------------------------------------------------------------- Please check out my Temple of Love http://tolsite.org/

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 24122 233 35_Re: $$$- value for money v'od eich!7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Wed, 22 May 2002 08:45:58 +0300600_ISO-8859-1 I once read a report on the equation, and it is definitely true that America gains as much and more from the relationship as does Israel.

I happen to have been privy to one example which was mind-boggling in its import. At one time I worked in the Technion in the Aeronautics Building, helping to organize The Sam Neiman Institute of Higher Learning (something like what exists in Princeton). At one point I was taken down into the basement of the building and was shown an airplane motor completely covered with ceramic coating. Nobody understood what the ceramic coating was [...] 24356 60 44_Fw: Online list of Israel volunteer programs7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Wed, 22 May 2002 17:15:08 +0300656_iso-8859-1 From: Jacob Richman org>

Subject: Online list of Israel volunteer programs



> Hi Everyone! > > I added a new section to my website that lists volunteer programs > in Israel. The address is: > > Volunteer Programs in Israel > http://www.jr.co.il/hotsites/i-vol.htm > > If you have additional websites that I did not list, please forward > them to me. Please note the specific volunteer web page address. > > FYI: Here is a partial listing of other useful Pro-Israel sections: > > Buy Blue and White - Support Israel > http://www.jr.co.il/hotsites/sh-il.htm > > Hasbara Articles to Explain the Israeli [...] 24417 160 24_from the London Observer13_Yuval Warshai16_warshais@tir.com31_Wed, 22 May 2002 13:08:23 -0400559_iso-8859-1 This is one opinion I believe should be considered. For your judgment.

-----beginning of copied material from

http://www.observer.co.uk/worldview/story/0,11581,717559,00.html

----------

Observer Worldview Extra

----------

Why Israel's 'seruvniks' say enough is enough

The laywer representing Israeli conscripts who refuse to serve beyond the 1967 ceasefire lines explains why a growing number of soldiers are disobeying orders, in order to protect the basic values on which Israel was founded. [...] 24578 230 12_back on line13_Avi Goldstein24_habergo@barak-online.net31_Wed, 22 May 2002 22:52:30 +0200532_us-ascii After an absence of several years I'm back on Habonet hoping not to get overly flooded with e-mail. So, a quick introduction. I was in Habonim from the late 60's to the early 80's, mostly Ken Kinneret, Montreal, also in New York. I was at Grofit in the 25th workshop, Naaleh 1970 & 1971, Gesher 1975, 1977, 1980, 1981, madrich of KM Bet in Israel 1978, a Garin Shalhevet dropout. I've been living in Jerusalem since 1983, married to Marla (a non-Habonimer originally from Toronto) and the father of a boy and 2 girls. [...] 24809 63 35_Re: $$$- value for money v'od eich!0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com29_Wed, 22 May 2002 15:58:59 EDT323_US-ASCII I have no doubt that the US does get something from its relationship with Israel, but the idea that this is a relationship of equals and that the US gets just as much as it gives is blatantly absurd. I wouldn't have thought it necessary to elaborate more since it seems so obvious but I guess I will have to. [...] 24873 295 35_RE: $$$- value for money v'od eich!13_Avi Goldstein24_habergo@barak-online.net31_Wed, 22 May 2002 23:24:05 +0200576_us-ascii Richard, I remember reading a cover story in Mother Jones around 20 years ago claiming that Israel sank the liberty on purpose, but I've never seen it mentioned anywhere else. Do we have any other sources for this? By the way, from what I remember of the article, Mother Jones claimed the liberty was spying on Israel, which I imagine could be construed as an act of war. And speaking of that billionaire, I think yesterday's news claimed that some official investigation in the US had decided that Israel's role in Rich's pardon was minor, and it mostly had to [...] 25169 56 35_Re: $$$- value for money v'od eich!11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Wed, 22 May 2002 16:37:21 -0400595_iso-8859-1 Hi Avi,

Welcome back. Alas I suspect you will be disapppointed in your hope to not be overwhelmed with email :-)

A few years ago while doing some research on the Pollard case I saw multiple references to the Liberty and assertions that radio intercepts indicated that the Israeli pilots saw the US flag and other markings and attacked anyway (didn't think it sunk, but lives were certainly lost). I believe the ship was in international waters. I don't believe observing the world from international waters is spying, nor do I believe it is an act of war. I'll see [...] 25226 65 35_RE: $$$- value for money v'od eich!14_Hadar Susskind19_hadar34@hotmail.com31_Wed, 22 May 2002 20:43:10 +0000395_- Avi,

I can't give you any hard proof off the top of my head, but I can tell you that having studied Israeli history at Tel Aviv University, it is pretty much an accepted fact among professors and students there that the Liberty was inttentionally sunk by Israel. There was a lot of spin about how it was an accident and a misunderstnding, but that ust doesn't seem to be the case. [...] 25292 50 23_Democracy for Palestine11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org31_Wed, 22 May 2002 17:47:26 -0500709_us-ascii REVIEW & OUTLOOK

Democracy for Palestine An unexpected moment of opportunity.

Wednesday, May 22, 2002 12:01 a.m. EDT

Just when all seemed hopeless, history has afforded the Bush Administration one of those rare, unexpected moments of opportunity.

We refer to the unprecedented outpouring of public discontent in Yasser Arafat's Palestinian Authority over the past week. Just a fortnight ago the conventional wisdom was that Israel's lengthy West Bank incursion had only strengthened Mr. Arafat by forcing Palestinians to rally behind their leader; President Bush would be mired in an ever-worsening Israeli-Palestinian crisis as he tried to build a coalition against [...] 25343 35 35_Re: $$$- value for money v'od eich!0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com29_Wed, 22 May 2002 18:48:04 EDT322_US-ASCII The Liberty wasn't sunk, it was attacked and some sailors were killed. Yes, it was spying, in international waters, attacking it was an act of war. I also don't think the Israeli pressure was that important in the pardon either, but messing around in US domestic affairs is something Americans don't usually like. 25379 266 16_Re: back on line29_Richard Steacy & Esther Cohen22_richard.steacy@gte.net31_Wed, 22 May 2002 19:45:27 -0400395_iso-8859-1 avi goldstein - there's a blast from the past, eh?

just saying hello - esther cohen, washington dc (moshava), workshop 27 gesher haziv with eric koopferstock and bram goldfarb, among others.

welcome back - take care,

-esther ----- Original Message ----- From: Avi Goldstein To: habonet@shamash.org Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 4:52 PM Subject: back on line [...] 25646 68 35_Re: $$$- value for money v'od eich!7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Thu, 23 May 2002 02:49:51 +0300387_iso-8859-1 American spies spy out in the open in Israel. They think nothing of photographing sensitive subjects in broad daylight. This is a known here. And America doesn't mix into our domestic affairs? PLEASE! pearl ----- Original Message ----- From: Richardrdsmith@aol.com To: habonet@shamash.org Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 1:48 AM Subject: Re: $$$- value for money v'od eich! [...] 25715 42 35_Re: $$$- value for money v'od eich!0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com29_Thu, 23 May 2002 05:06:10 EDT439_US-ASCII In a message dated 5/23/02 1:58:47 AM Eastern Daylight Time, skolnik@netvision.net.il writes:



> American spies spy out in the open in Israel. They think nothing of > photographing sensitive subjects in broad daylight. This is a known here. > And America doesn't mix into our domestic affairs? PLEASE!

Well, I think Israel should break off relations with the U.S.. Why should Israel put up with such behavior? 25758 49 44_Most Incredibly Ridiculous Statement COntest13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Thu, 23 May 2002 07:48:11 -0400 25808 45 48_Re: Most Incredibly Ridiculous Statement COntest0_18_Brianscoop@aol.com29_Thu, 23 May 2002 07:53:20 EDT354_US-ASCII well, i'm assuming that you're contest is tongue-in-cheek as well, but nonetheless, i would propose once again, that rather than wallowing in the past, let's have a contest for the least ridiculous view of the future and how we are to get there.

faithfully yours, brian

----------------------------- Brian Cooper brianscoop@aol.com 25854 32 48_Re: Most Incredibly Ridiculous Statement COntest11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Thu, 23 May 2002 08:31:33 -0400457_us-ascii Hi Judy,

My nomination is below :-)

Noam

Brianscoop@aol.com wrote:

> well, i'm assuming that you're contest is tongue-in-cheek as well, but nonetheless, i would propose once again, that rather than wallowing in the past, let's have a contest for the least ridiculous view of the future and how we are to get there. > > faithfully yours, > brian > > ----------------------------- > Brian Cooper > brianscoop@aol.com [...] 25887 30 48_Re: Most Incredibly Ridiculous Statement COntest0_18_Brianscoop@aol.com29_Thu, 23 May 2002 08:48:04 EDT407_US-ASCII LOL! and otherwise, speechless! ;-P

-brian

> My nomination is below :-) > Noam

> Brianscoop@aol.com wrote:

>> well, i'm assuming that you're contest is tongue-in-cheek as well, but >> nonetheless, i would propose once again, that rather than wallowing >> in the past, let's have a contest for the least ridiculous view of the future >> and how we are to get there. [...] 25918 24 35_Re: $$$- value for money v'od eich!12_David Fleiss20_dfleiss@pipeline.com31_Thu, 23 May 2002 09:11:42 -0400 25943 303 22_5/15 Torricelli speech16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Thu, 23 May 2002 10:23:13 -0400560_us-ascii The following remarks were delivered on the floor of the United States Senate by Sen. Robert Torricelli (D-NJ) on May 15, 2002.



ISRAEL -- (Senate - May 15, 2002)

[Page: S4424] --- Mr. TORRICELLI. Mr. President, throughout all of my adult life, I have traveled frequently to Israel. I have had the honor of knowing almost all of Israel's principal leaders. As many Americans though I am of the Christian faith, I have always felt a strong identity with the struggle of the Jewish people and the survival of the Jewish State. [...] 26247 29 26_Re: 5/15 Torricelli speech14_Holtzer Family20_carmdave@urim.org.il31_Thu, 23 May 2002 17:50:34 +0200588_iso-8859-1 Elihu,

Great speech by the Senator. Wish more people thought like him, especially the President. Maybe you, with your political connections, could feed him a little ammunition in our favor - it might be interesting to try an accounting of the hundreds of millions of dollars that have been funneled to the PA. See how much has ended up in Swiss accounts, how much go for arms and "salaries" of terrorists and how much actually gets through to the street for the intended benefit of the Palestinian people. Wonder how that $50 million bucks spent on the arms on the [...] 26277 18 16_Re: back on line0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Thu, 23 May 2002 12:04:15 EDT366_US-ASCII welcome back Avi.

Dennis

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 26296 49 26_Re: 5/15 Torricelli speech0_15_DebALev@aol.com29_Thu, 23 May 2002 12:08:38 EDT406_US-ASCII In a message dated 5/23/2002 11:21:21 AM Eastern Daylight Time, carmdave@urim.org.il writes:



> Great speech by the Senator. Wish more people thought like him, > especially the President.



Oh, Dave, Dave, Dave. You should know by now that you can't put "thought" and "the President" in the same paragraph, much less the same sentence. It just doesn't compute. [...] 26346 181 26_Re: 5/15 Torricelli speech0_15_DebALev@aol.com29_Thu, 23 May 2002 12:11:10 EDT552_UTF-8 Interesting that the following showed up in my mailbox at about the same time:



Witness Says Senator Urged Him to Lie

By DAVID KOCIENIEWSKI

http://www.nytimes.com

EWARK, May 22 — The New Jersey businessman who maintains that he gave Senator Robert G. Torricelli tens of thousands of dollars in cash and expensive gifts said in court papers filed today that Mr. Torricelli repeatedly urged him to lie to federal investigators and warned that his life would be in danger if he cooperated with prosecutors. [...] 26528 26 26_Re: 5/15 Torricelli speech14_Holtzer Family20_carmdave@urim.org.il31_Thu, 23 May 2002 19:27:06 +0200316_UTF-8 Debbie,

Just because he's a crooked politician doesn't mean we can't like his support for Israel. After all, is there such a thing as a politician who isn't crooked, slimy or a weasel?

Dave

PS - if you want to use this as an item in the Most Ridiculous Statement contest, be my guest [...] 26555 165 19_New Amos Gitai Film9_R. Shultz18_lzac@securenet.net31_Thu, 23 May 2002 14:15:43 -0400648_iso-8859-1 Director brings birth of Israel to Cannes By Joan Dupont (International Herald Tribune) Friday, May 17, 2002



CANNES: Since "Kadosh," the Israeli director Amos Gitai has been a regular in competition at the Cannes film festival with films that bite like bullets. Each movie comes from a personal piece of history. "Kadosh" (1999) was an exposé of cruel realities in orthodox Jerusalem. "Kippur" (2000) was inspired by the director's experience when his helicopter was shot down during the Six Day War. "Kedma," his latest, touches on another sensitive subject, the story of a ragtag bunch of Europeans, orphans of the [...] 26721 25 26_Re: 5/15 Torricelli speech0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Thu, 23 May 2002 14:49:20 EDT423_US-ASCII Dave,

Just bear in mind that slimy, etc. doesn't disappear when the subject becomes Israel. I'm sure that his speech was well received by his large number of voting Jewish constituents. We resonate to both the sentiment and the truth of his words, but other with a different point of view will conclude that he is sucking up to big contributors in the Jewish community, or the Jewish media, etc., etc. [...] 26747 171 24_how the settlements grew13_Yuval Warshai16_warshais@tir.com31_Thu, 23 May 2002 15:14:40 -0400593_iso-8859-1 Subject: NY Times 05-21-02: How Israeli Settlements Grew Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 15:34:08 -0700

How the Settler Suburbs Grew May 21, 2002 By DAVID NEWMAN

BEER SHEVA, Israel - There is nothing that causes as much heated debate in Israel as the future of the settlements in the West Bank and Gaza. It is now clear to most Israelis that if there is ever going to be a final political agreement with the Palestinians, it will require that some, if not necessarily all, of the settlements be dislodged and evacuated. A permanent plan would have to create a Palestinian [...] 26919 52 48_Re: Most Incredibly Ridiculous Statement COntest0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com29_Thu, 23 May 2002 15:28:24 EDT403_US-ASCII In a message dated 5/23/02 7:54:00 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Brianscoop@aol.com writes:



> well, i'm assuming that you're contest is tongue-in-cheek as well, but > nonetheless, i would propose once again, that rather than wallowing in the > past, let's have a contest for the least ridiculous view of the future and > how we are to get there. > > faithfully yours, > brian > [...] 26972 218 53_something worth sharing in the midst of our arguments0_18_Judithb253@aol.com29_Thu, 23 May 2002 16:24:35 EDT17_US-ASCII

27191 509 16_RE: back on line13_Avi Goldstein24_habergo@barak-online.net31_Fri, 24 May 2002 00:32:14 +0200528_us-ascii And hi back to you, Esther. What's happening with you these days? Avi



-----Original Message----- From: owner-habonet@shamash.org [mailto:owner-habonet@shamash.org] On Behalf Of Richard Steacy & Esther Cohen Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 1:45 AM To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: Re: back on line

avi goldstein - there's a blast from the past, eh?

just saying hello - esther cohen, washington dc (moshava), workshop 27 gesher haziv with eric koopferstock and bram goldfarb, among others. [...] 27701 43 23_Re: New Amos Gitai Film3_avi16_avi@gezer.org.il31_Fri, 24 May 2002 08:45:21 +0200419_iso-8859-1 This is a great write-up, unfortunately I find it very hard to watch his movies, not because of the subject matter, but because they are excrutiatingly slow. Every pregnant pause seems to take 9 months, every conversation drags on forever. The action moments in Kippur are tests of endurance, not for the characters, but for the viewers. He could probably use a couple of lessons with Steven Spielberg. [...] 27745 103 33_Was Barak a Competent Negotiator?9_R. Shultz18_lzac@securenet.net31_Fri, 24 May 2002 08:10:43 -0400652_iso-8859-1 Was Barak telling the truth?

The ex-PM's disparagement of the Palestinians began long ago

Yoav Peled Friday May 24, 2002 The Guardian

Astute observers of Israeli politics have been wondering, ever since Ehud Barak was elected prime minister in 1999, whether his "peace offensive" was a real effort to achieve peace with Israel's neighbours or only an attempt to "expose" the Arabs' intention of destroying Israel. The debate intensified when the failure of the Camp David II summit in the summer of 2000 was almost universally interpreted as a rejection by Yasser Arafat of Barak's "generous" offer to end Israel's [...] 27849 95 54_Re: Was Barak a Competent Negotiator? - cherry picking11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Fri, 24 May 2002 09:42:03 -0400429_us-ascii



"R. Shultz" wrote:

> Was Barak telling the truth?

Too bad the Peled article that Reuven sent was so selective in it's references to the Morris interview of Barak. Peled seems to have missed some interesting sections entirely. I guess it's easier to cherry pick items to make one's case than to take a comprehensive look at the situation. I've done some cherry picking of my own below. [...] 27945 26 50_Re: kibbutz privatization and government committee11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Fri, 24 May 2002 10:15:33 -0400673_us-ascii What I found incredible about this article was the fellow from Shaas saying:

""It is inconceivable that in the present economic situation, the government will make decisions costing billions of shekels, and prefer one small sector over the rest of the public..."

Isn't that the thrust of Shaas' entire existance?

Noam

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 27972 42 10_Torricelli16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Fri, 24 May 2002 11:07:45 -0400620_us-ascii Whatever else one wants to say about New Jersey's senior US Senator (and there's lots), hear this: Torricelli in the entirety of his public career has been consistantly progressively pro-Israel. He was known, when working as a staff assistant in Jimmy Carter's White House, for being an in-house pro-Israel stalwart. And consistantly since he was elected to Congress in 1982 he has been supportive. That support continued with his election to the US Senate in 1996. Now it is true that his old Congressional district in Bergen County was chock-a-block full of Jewish voters, so maybe he was pandering. And [...] 28015 23 23_Re: New Amos Gitai Film0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Fri, 24 May 2002 11:21:16 EDT547_US-ASCII Hi Avi- It's interesting that Israeli film is getting a lot of press lately. Here in LA- "Late Wedding" has gotten favorable reviews and is playing as a regular film in an art house ( not as part of the ISraeli Film Festival- where it first played), and was also reviewed in "People"- a big step...I was very touched by "Kadosh"- it stayed with me for weeks- and invovled a lot of discussion- but I agree with you- the opening - watching the "star" put on his tefillin and do his morning "rituals" took so long, my friend walked out [...] 28039 960 18_Ha'aretz - Article16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Fri, 24 May 2002 11:21:28 -0400139_us-ascii

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=167683&contrassID=2&subContrassID=4&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y 29000 31 14_Re: Torricelli14_Holtzer Family20_carmdave@urim.org.il31_Fri, 24 May 2002 18:28:33 +0200579_iso-8859-1 Dear Elihu and Habonet,

Hey, buddy, I don't know anything about the guy. However, I know that all politicians have "events" in their past that would not look good in the public spotlight..... but, then, ALL of us probably have some "event" or two in our pasts that could be blasted onto the worldstage (or the Wash, DC stage at least). Ever forget to pay for something, innocently? Grand theft. Ever steal a kiss? Cheat on your spouse? Run a stop sign? Inhale? Etc. etc etc. We hold our politicians to a different kind of accountability that we would hate [...] 29032 152 50_Re: kibbutz privatization and government committee13_moshe sheskin24_moshes7@netvision.net.il55_Fri, 24 May 2002 12:18:43 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time)397_iso-8859-1 Noam, you've got it right on. It's the height of chutzpah. I just wonder what surprises are coming or what demands will be made by them in order to return to the government.

Moshe

-------Original Message-------

From: habonet@shamash.org Date: Friday, May 24, 2002 10:16:33 AM To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: Re: kibbutz privatization and government committee [...] 29185 20 38_Ha'aretz article of a different nature11_Batel Libes25_batel_libes@earthlink.net31_Fri, 24 May 2002 09:38:22 -0700518_iso-8859-1 Another interesting article from Ha'aretz

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=167175&contrassID =2&subContrassID=11&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y



------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 29206 177 35_RE: $$$- value for money v'od eich!11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Fri, 24 May 2002 10:17:30 -0700455_us-ascii Richard

There are no winners in this particular contest. You are fairly correct on a lot of your points.And yes, America has been very good to Israel.

But the relationship is far more complex than you apparently are aware of. This is not an attack on you, so please don't jump. The stuff that has NOT been written in the give-and-takes is far more complex than all the other stuff. Uber-politics makes all kinds of bedfellows. [...] 29384 111 54_Re: Was Barak a Competent Negotiator? - cherry picking9_R. Shultz18_lzac@securenet.net31_Fri, 24 May 2002 13:57:06 -0400421_iso-8859-1 Noam, You wrote that it is a pity that Peled missed the interesting points in the interview with Barak in the NYRB. What were the interesting points that were missed in the interview with Barak?

Reuven ----- Original Message ----- From: "Noam Stopak" To: Sent: Friday, May 24, 2002 9:42 AM Subject: Re: Was Barak a Competent Negotiator? - cherry picking [...] 29496 45 54_Re: Was Barak a Competent Negotiator? - cherry picking11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Fri, 24 May 2002 14:15:07 -0400495_us-ascii "R. Shultz" wrote:

> Noam, > You wrote that it is a pity that Peled missed the interesting points in the > interview with Barak in the NYRB. What were the interesting points that were > missed in the interview > with Barak? > > Reuven >

Reuven,

I'm at a loss to understand how you missed the bulk of my message, which contained my attempt to pick out the interesting bits? It started just below where I said "++ Begin selection from Morris interview of Barak" [...] 29542 280 54_Israelis Consider New Limits on West Bank Palestinians0_24_purpleroot8@netscape.net31_Fri, 24 May 2002 17:24:07 -0400558_iso-8859-1 Hello,

I'd like to thank R. Shultz for forwarding the Toronto Star article on the Hand In Hand school and the Israeli peace movement. I didn't have the means to send a non-attachement, text version.

To me, that article, and the enclosed piece from the Times, relates to the 50th anniversary of the Workshop. The erosion of the Israeli institutions we associated with Habonim, Dror, Hashomer Hatzair, with Socialist-Zionism is directly related to the new reality, the new society and culture which emerged after the Six-Day War. [...] 29823 351 7_Whew...13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il31_Sat, 25 May 2002 01:20:30 +0200777_windows-1255

We certainly dodged a "bullet" here. This was a close one.

--------------------------------------------------------------------







Saturday, May 25, 2002 Sivan 14, 5762 Israel Time: 01:14 (GMT+3)









Pi Glilot nightmares: scenarios from hell

By Ha'aretz Staff







A disastrous explosion at the Pi Glilot fuel depot, setting off explosions of the massive reservoirs of natural gas and other fuels at the site, would be devastating for most of Tel Aviv on the northern side of the Yarkon River, with the first fireball reaching Ramat Aviv Gimel, followed by clouds of natural gas that would turn into new fires on encountering any electrical spark. [...] 30175 40 37_Re: Was Barak a Competent Negotiator?0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Fri, 24 May 2002 21:43:41 EDT395_US-ASCII Generalizations are both correct and incorrect.

They are correct in that they describe a significant characteristic of a subset of the total population. The size of the subset my vary but it has a certain prominence that makes it likely to appear valid to the hearer. Descriptions of Americans are often based on specific subsets of the population; tourists, students, etc. [...] 30216 162 41_Re: Government Panel on Kibbutz definiton9_yigalsela18_ysela@inter.net.il31_Sat, 25 May 2002 10:41:00 +0200599_windows-1255 As a number of Habonet readers appear to be confused by the article in Jerusalem Post with regards to the Government Committee to redefine kibbutz, maybe I can throw some light on the matter.

I, as a member of the Kibbutz Movement Maskirut, was involved with these discussions over the best part of the last year. The initiative came from the Kibbutz Movements. Seeing the changes occurring in various kibbutzim we felt a need to redefine the framework of the kibbutz for a number of reasons. Mas Hachanasa (Income tax) was only one need, but the Lands Authority is another [...] 30379 452 15_More on Gililot13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il31_Sat, 25 May 2002 18:40:33 +0200619_windows-1255 Fuel Depot Bombing Could Have Been Major Calamity DEBKAfile Special Report 23 May: Wednesday night, May 22, Rishon Lezion, a small town south of TeI Aviv was struck by a Palestinian suicide bomber for the second time in ten days. The killer targeted strollers taking the air in the town’s high street mall and knots of chess-players sitting quietly in a corner opposite a park. Two died and more than 30 hospitalized. Less than 12 hours later, a catastrophe of disastrous proportions was narrowly prevented. Thursday morning, May 23, a tanker-truck drove into Israel’s central fuel depot at Pi Glilot [...] 30832 56 83_FW: Molecular Expressions Science, Optics and You - Powers Of 10 Interactive Java T11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Sat, 25 May 2002 09:15:17 -0700491_windows-1255



-----Original Message----- From: Marcia Plager [mailto:mplager@socal.rr.com] Sent: Friday, May 24, 2002 6:14 AM To: Mark and Etta Goldberg; Elly Krapek; David Remis; Deloris Hendrix; Doug and Renee Goldenberg-Schwartz; Dan Sline Subject: Fw: Molecular Expressions Science, Optics and You - Powers Of 10 Interactive Java T



DON'T MISS THIS ONE. MARCIA



http://microscopy.fsu.edu/primer/java/scienceopticsu/powersof10/index.html

30889 144 20_Benny Morris article15_Leo Diesendruck18_leodie@isdn.net.il31_Sat, 25 May 2002 19:46:58 +0200353_us-ascii I have downloaded the Benny Morris article referred to. It is entitled "Camp David and After: An Exchange (1. An Interview With Ehud Barak)". This implies there is more to come. I will forward it to anyone who will send me his email address.





Prof. Leo Diesendruck

Nofei Hasharon 408

7 Petach Tikva Rd. [...] 31034 154 15_FW: Sat, June 811_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Sat, 25 May 2002 10:35:02 -0700566_us-ascii



-----Original Message----- From: Steve Klein [mailto:kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com] Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2002 10:28 AM To: Carl Subject: RE: Sat, June 8



Dear Carl and fellow Workshoppers

Sorry I can't be with you in the park. I am truly jealous of those of you that will be there together. Just too much happening here that can no longer be put off. I will aim for"Next year in New York", on the way to Israel to Bar Mitzvah my grandson on Matsada (I was the presiding " Rabbi" for my own son on Matsada in 1982). [...] 31189 42 13_aid to Israel7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Sat, 25 May 2002 22:53:24 +0300301_windows-1255 when I wrote the off the cuff list of benefits that the U.S. has gained from its relationship with Israel it wasn't with the idea of entering a contest to see who could add or detract, it was just to show that we in Israel are not on a free ride. Israel has definitely paid its way. pearl 31232 16 26_Re: 5/15 Torricelli speech0_13_SC523@aol.com29_Sun, 26 May 2002 02:15:50 EDT343_US-ASCII



------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 31249 41 24_Re: Benny Morris article12_Stan Goldman17_stan@zahav.net.il31_Mon, 26 May 2003 09:24:11 +020061_iso-8859-1 Pleaseend me the Benny Morris article Stan Goldman 31291 138 42_Re: Government Panel on Kibbutz definition9_yigalsela18_ysela@inter.net.il31_Sun, 26 May 2002 12:51:13 +0200318_windows-1255 Further to the decision by the government to set up the committee to decide on the definition of kibbutz I have in my hands the minutes of the Government meeting. Apart from the scandalous attacks of some of the Likud ministers and all the Shaas representatives it is worth noting Sharon's comments. [...] 31430 48 42_Re: Government Panel on Kibbutz definition13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il31_Sun, 26 May 2002 16:22:32 +0200225_windows-1255 Yigal, could you tell us please where we can also read these minutes? As a kibbutznik millionaire, lying by my pool (trying not to get my keyboard soaked), I'd like to read some of the other comments. Thanks, Jon 31479 135 19_Re: FW: Sat, June 80_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Sun, 26 May 2002 09:25:26 EDT460_US-ASCII In a message dated 5/25/2002 1:33:17 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com writes:



> I also have to say that it is colored by the standpoint > of an armchair observor, intellectual and removed.

>Another Anwar Sadat will have to rise out of the chaos that is Arab "leadership" to see the solutions as ones that have to be made pragmatically, with the idea of compromise as some very new and different concept. [...] 31615 75 43_Israel News Jerusalem Post Internet Edition8_ericmoli25_ericmoli@netvision.net.il31_Sun, 26 May 2002 21:19:14 +0200350_windows-1255 Hi all,

The following article is just a small example of how some people in Israel are determined to find the path to Peace. I hope that I'll still be around when they. and others like them, do.

Happy reading, Mollie Marx

http://www.jpost.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=JPost/A/JPArticle/Full&cid=1020943234862 31691 122 15_FW: Sat, June 812_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Mon, 27 May 2002 15:43:40 +0200611_us-ascii Haverim/ot and Steve I take strong exception to the content of your Email and it's tone. It's unclear to me what really bugs you about Dennis. You referred to him four times as Mr. Lerner, never once as Dennis. Your avoidance of his name could be written off as a stylistic peccadillo but it's not the done thing on Habonet. Meileh! But when you attack him by association: as an _ intellectual + intellectualizing_ 4 times, _philosopher and uber-philosophizing _ 3times, _ armchair observer_twice and _self-hating _4 times. I begin to feel distinctly uncomfortable. That is a display of invective [...] 31814 1509 54_Debate on Arafat Stalls U.S. Policy, Aides to Bush Say16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Mon, 27 May 2002 10:45:30 -040087_us-ascii

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/05/26/international/middleeast/26ARAF.html 33324 154 15_RE: Sat, June 811_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Mon, 27 May 2002 09:13:45 -0700619_us-ascii Amnon

What Dennis Lerner???????????????????????????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I was responding to a letter or article that was quoted as having come from the pen of a Michaeln Lerner. I don't even know who he is! Dennis is an old friend, closer to me than most of the people on this planet, and I would never knowingly hurt or slight him. In addition, there was no intent to deprecate Mr. M. Lerner either. Discussions may get heated, but they do no good when there is mud-slinging and name-calling. I admit that I have a sometimes-abrasive style. That may change over the decades (to probably [...] 33479 148 18_Daganya vs Matsada11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Mon, 27 May 2002 09:23:46 -0700480_us-ascii P.S. Amnon-

Thanks for the suggestion on the Bar Mitzva venue. Well taken.

I am shooting for form over substance here. The symbolism is obviously better with your choice of Daganya. I am hoping that making the climb up to the top, along with all of the drama of the Matsada site, will create a starting link and bond to Israel. Once that is attained, I think it will be easier to tie in the rest of it to lock him in solidly. Who knows? Might do both! [...] 33628 270 19_RE: FW: Sat, June 811_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Mon, 27 May 2002 09:43:51 -0700363_us-ascii Dennis

Well taken. I was not responding to anything you wrote. I have often not agreed with your views, but I have understood them as well-intended and even necessary for us not to lose our way. I was responding to a Michael Lerner article. Are you him? Is he you? Sorry for any confusion. I would never have responded to you in that manner. [...] 33899 28 21_How's this for irony?3_avi16_avi@gezer.org.il31_Tue, 28 May 2002 08:14:54 +0200611_us-ascii A fellow here on the kibbutz, who organizes conflict resolution activities for youth, involving various embattled members of the species: Israelis and Palestinians, Greeks and Turks, Sharks and Jets was telling me about a recent conference he was involved in in Europe with Israeli and Palestinian teenagers. He had to arrange the exit of the Palestinian participants from Gaza (no easy task in itself) either from the north, through the Erez checkpoint and then to Ben Gurion Airport or from the south and then through Cairo. He said that one of the reasons that the parents of the kids involved [...] 33928 133 23_NY Times op-ed on walls11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Tue, 28 May 2002 10:14:44 -0400586_iso-8859-1 There has been discussion, both on habonet and in the wider world about building walls to create separation. It's worth considering some of the points below.

Noam

+++

May 28, 2002

Walls Throughout History

By STEVEN R. WEISMAN

Nearly desperate to ward off suicide bombers, Israel has begun thinking about building a security fence and system of military checkpoints for Palestinians wishing to enter its territory. "It's not very difficult to construct," former Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu declared recently in Washington. [...] 34062 18 25_Re: How's this for irony?0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Tue, 28 May 2002 12:31:06 EDT479_US-ASCII I assume we are referring here to Arab terrorist attacks on busses, transportation facilities, etc. while they were in transit in Israel. Dennis

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 34081 238 11_Super idea!13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il31_Tue, 28 May 2002 21:42:40 +0200564_windows-1255 By the way, just for your information, I'll be in milu'im June 23 -26. Jon

IDF SOLDIERS APPRECIATE ENCOURAGEMENT AND ENJOY PIZZA!

Israeli soldiers sit in their tank on the outskirts of Nablus, ready for the smallest indication of Palestinian terrorist activity. The night is dark; the location is hostile and unknown. The soldiers' mission is full of personal discomfort and danger, yet it is one of utmost importance - safeguarding the citizens of Israel. Then time comes for a well-deserved break, and the pizza delivery arrives. [...] 34320 130 15_Call me Ishmael12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Tue, 28 May 2002 23:16:34 +0200554_iso-8859-1

>Date: Tue, 28 May 2002 23:08:50 +0200 >To: >From: Amnon Hadary >Subject: Call me Ishmael > >Haverot/im > I offer you a modern midrash . First the source in the biblical account > followed by two poems by Hiam Gouri. He wrote “Smell of the Field” in > 1985 and “Esau” in 1994. Some things do not change. How they are > perceived, do. Call me Ishmael or call me Esau call me everyman or call > me the Other. > > >Amnon > >Genesis 25 >And Isaac entreated the LORD for his wife, because she was >barren; and [...] 34451 68 31_Fwd: Letter from Sen. Leiberman12_David Fleiss20_dfleiss@pipeline.com31_Tue, 28 May 2002 20:10:37 -0400628_us-ascii

>Subject: Fw: TO THE PEOPLE OF FRANCE - IN REMEMBRANCE > >Liberty, equality, fraternity! Does the French nation recall that >slogan? > >The current French tolerance of and indifference to the wave of >attacks upon French Jews speaks clearly of the decline of the French >national character. > >The French have forgotten! Two hundred and some odd years ago >the suffering French populace erupted in revolution against tyranny. >They cried for and fought for liberty, fraternity, equality for all in >every aspect of French society. > >The French have forgotten! But I remember! I still have in my >mind the [...] 34520 51 19_Re: Call me Ishmael0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Tue, 28 May 2002 20:35:13 EDT602_US-ASCII I prefer to call you Amnon. Ishmael was a fighter and teaser of his younger brother, and later for Melville, a story teller. While in both roles he's a survivor under extreme circumstances, one is left to wonder whether survival alone is worth the price each has to pay.

The story of Esau and Jacob parallels that of Haggar and Ishmael. In both the "rightful," by conventional standards, recipient of the parental blessing and estate is prevented from carrying on the line of Abraham, first as a consequence of their own behavior, and second with the intervention of the younger's [...] 34572 19 30_Re: Letter from Sen. Leiberman0_15_DebALev@aol.com29_Tue, 28 May 2002 20:43:48 EDT476_US-ASCII You know, this is a very nice letter. However, the last line leads me to believe it is a hoax a la the Dennis Miller statement.

Debbie

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 34592 40 30_Re: Letter from Sen. Leiberman0_15_DebALev@aol.com29_Tue, 28 May 2002 20:49:11 EDT235_US-ASCII Actually, yes, indeedy, it IT a hoax.

Check out http://www.snopes2.com and search under "Lieberman."

Quel dommage. Tant pis. Good letter.........wish it were so.

Debbie 34633 61 25_Re: How's this for irony?13_avi rosenberg16_avi@gezer.org.il31_Wed, 29 May 2002 08:06:41 +0200303_us-ascii Correct assumption.



At 12:31 28/05/02 -0400, you wrote: >I assume we are referring here to Arab terrorist attacks on busses, >transportation facilities, etc. while they were in transit in Israel. >Dennis >

Avi Rosenberg Cybermedia Web Design and Hosting Tel: 972-8-9204075 34695 19 30_Re: Letter from Sen. Leiberman12_David Fleiss20_dfleiss@pipeline.com31_Wed, 29 May 2002 09:27:27 -0400479_- It looks like Debbie is right; the letter is a hoax:

http://www.snopes2.com/inboxer/petition/lieberman.htm

Sorry about that,

David

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 34715 66 15_Call me Ishmael12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Wed, 29 May 2002 16:13:48 +0200545_us-ascii Hi Dennis,

You sure are correct. It's good to know that there's someone *out there* and if they take the trouble to respond, that's even gooder. Even if they disagree. So here we go. (In caps,) you wrote In both cases God indicates that the rejected son with give rise to a great people. Shocking as it may sound, there is little to go on as to what God really indicated if anything. No pictorials, no audio, no text. What we do have and it's very good is what some very able, creative, ethical people wanted us to have. By [...] 34782 140 30_Re: Letter from Sen. Leiberman0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Wed, 29 May 2002 10:15:28 EDT551_US-ASCII Unlike the ersatz Liberman letter, the following letter appeared - to my own wondering eyes - in this morning's Syracuse News Paper (the Post Standard)

Has Jew-bashing become respectable after Sept. 11? May 29, 2002

By Laurence Thomas

Laurence Thomas is professor of philosophy, political science and Judaic studies at Syracuse University; he divides his time between his homes in Syracuse and France. (From the picture printed with the article it seems safe to conclude that prof. Thomas is of African descent.) DL [...] 34923 36 41_jew-bashing, muslim-embracing and fashion0_15_Marshlf@aol.com29_Wed, 29 May 2002 10:29:58 EDT350_US-ASCII i, too, am seeing the new fashion of embracing our muslim friends, who are having such a tough time since 9-11. but i'm not seeing any of that towards jews. in fact, i read a day or two ago in the washington post (so it must be true) of bush's (?) idea for a sept 11 commemoration involving a reach out to your muslim neighbor program. [...] 34960 30 4_gilo11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Wed, 29 May 2002 11:37:50 -0400447_us-ascii

The NY Times describes Gilo as an "East Jerusalem neighborood, where a sprawling Jewish area hab been build on land seized after the war of 1967."

(see www.nytimes.com/2002/05/29/international/middleeast/29MIDE.html)

I seem to recall someone declaring definitively that the land Gilo was constructed upon was Jewish owned land. Does anyone have documentation of this assertion so we can set the Times straight? [...] 34991 50 45_Re: jew-bashing, muslim-embracing and fashion14_Holtzer Family20_carmdave@urim.org.il31_Wed, 29 May 2002 19:06:44 +0200154_iso-8859-1 I would be sorely tempted to write something about reaching out to my muslim neighbors, but it might excite a few people here......

Dave 35042 62 8_Re: gilo7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Wed, 29 May 2002 20:19:43 +0300553_iso-8859-1 Gilo is actually in the south, looking down upon the Patt neighborhood and the Katamonim. and all of Jerusalem for that matter. I had read once that the land was Jewish-owned land for many years before the 1967 war, but I would be hard-put to find out now the source of this information. The Keren Kayemet could verify it unless it was privately-owned land. I know that Har Choma was owned mostly by a Jew, who was so angry when the gov't confiscated it that he threatened to give his leases over to Arafat. Har Choma is across the road [...] 35105 47 30_Re: Letter from Sen. Leiberman0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com29_Wed, 29 May 2002 16:13:19 EDT261_US-ASCII In a message dated 5/29/02 10:16:20 AM Eastern Daylight Time, DLerner569@aol.com writes:



> Has Jew-bashing become respectable after Sept. 11? > May 29, 2002 > > By Laurence Thomas >

Can anyone tell me what this is in reference to? 35153 29 46_Cheapest Cell phone rental for trip to Israel?0_15_NEVETS2@aol.com29_Wed, 29 May 2002 16:20:35 EDT497_US-ASCII chevre, Shalom

Looking at the Internet, by far the cheapest cell phone rental I have found for a trip to Israel is TravelCell. $.37/min for outbound calls in Israel. $.57/min for outbound international calls. Comparable weekly rental rate.

But would it be even cheaper still to wait till I got to Israel to rent the cell phone? CellCom? Pelephone? Bezeq? I have not found any information about short term cell rentals from these companies (in English) on the internet. [...] 35183 19 30_Re: Letter from Sen. Leiberman0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Wed, 29 May 2002 16:35:48 EDT499_US-ASCII Richard, I posted the full article from the Syracuse Newspaper. I assume that he was simply moved to write not by a single incident, but by the accumulation. Dennis

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 35203 37 50_Re: Cheapest Cell phone rental for trip to Israel?13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Wed, 29 May 2002 16:45:50 -0400593_us-ascii Dear Steve, When you get the info, please share it! thanks, Judy Gelman

NEVETS2@aol.com wrote:

> chevre, Shalom > > Looking at the Internet, by far the cheapest cell phone rental I have found > for a trip to Israel is TravelCell. $.37/min for outbound calls in Israel. > $.57/min for outbound international calls. Comparable weekly rental rate. > > But would it be even cheaper still to wait till I got to Israel to rent the > cell phone? CellCom? Pelephone? Bezeq? I have not found any information > about short term cell rentals from these companies (in English) [...] 35241 72 50_Re: Cheapest Cell phone rental for trip to Israel?11_Don Goelman25_don.goelman@villanova.edu31_Wed, 29 May 2002 16:58:43 -0400557_us-ascii Amen! I'd like to hear. I've tentatively arranged for a "free" one with my car rental, but of course that's free only if you don't use it.

Judith Gelman wrote:

> Dear Steve, > When you get the info, please share it! > thanks, > Judy Gelman > > NEVETS2@aol.com wrote: > > > chevre, Shalom > > > > Looking at the Internet, by far the cheapest cell phone rental I have found > > for a trip to Israel is TravelCell. $.37/min for outbound calls in Israel. > > $.57/min for outbound international calls. Comparable weekly rental rate. [...] 35314 39 50_Re: Cheapest Cell phone rental for trip to Israel?11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org31_Wed, 29 May 2002 19:16:30 -0500650_us-ascii We found that the cheapest was to buy a cell phone, an Israeli one. We bought an Orange for 4oo sekels and use it everytime we are in Israel.



---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: NEVETS2@aol.com Reply-To: habonet@shamash.org Date: Wed, 29 May 2002 16:20:35 EDT

>chevre, Shalom > >Looking at the Internet, by far the cheapest cell phone rental I have found >for a trip to Israel is TravelCell. $.37/min for outbound calls in Israel. >$.57/min for outbound international calls. Comparable weekly rental rate. > >But would it be even cheaper still to wait till I got to Israel to rent [...] 35354 41 49_Re: Cheapest Cell phone rental for trip to Israel0_15_NEVETS2@aol.com29_Thu, 30 May 2002 00:47:43 EDT341_US-ASCII

In a message dated 5/30/02 12:08:53 AM, rbarland@mjds.org writes:

<< Subject: Re: Cheapest Cell phone rental for trip to Israel?

We found that the cheapest was to buy a cell phone, an Israeli one. We bought an Orange for 4oo shekels and use it everytime we are in Israel. >>

Roz, Judy, Don, Shalom [...] 35396 16 28_Re: So cool a flash,enjoy it0_15_Emabear@aol.com29_Thu, 30 May 2002 01:36:22 EDT407_US-ASCII tried opening this and was informed by Norton that it contained a virus.

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 35413 102 50_Re: Cheapest Cell phone rental for trip to Israel?21_Tsippi (Frances) Rudy16_tsippi@attbi.com31_Wed, 29 May 2002 23:53:07 -0700561_us-ascii Chevre,

I too am interested in cell phone rental rates, as I am going to be in Israel in July. Keep us posted!

Tsippi

At 01:45 PM 5/29/02, you wrote: >Dear Steve, >When you get the info, please share it! >thanks, >Judy Gelman > >NEVETS2@aol.com wrote: > > > chevre, Shalom > > > > Looking at the Internet, by far the cheapest cell phone rental I have found > > for a trip to Israel is TravelCell. $.37/min for outbound calls in Israel. > > $.57/min for outbound international calls. Comparable weekly rental rate. > > > > But [...] 35516 44 46_Cheapest Cell phone rental for trip to Israel?12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Thu, 30 May 2002 11:59:38 +0200502_us-ascii Haverot/im Apropos of Cheapest Cell phone rental for trip to Israel see below. But first a brakhah from a secular rabbi. Bless you for walking the walk

I rejoiced when they said unto me: 'Let us walk to the house of the LORD.' Our feet are standing within your gates, O Jerusalem; Jerusalem, that is built as a city that is compacted * together; ...Pray for the peace of Jerusalem; may they prosper that love you. Peace be within your walls, ....'Peace be within thee.' Psalms 122 [...] 35561 28 50_Re: Cheapest Cell phone rental for trip to Israel?14_Holtzer Family20_carmdave@urim.org.il31_Thu, 30 May 2002 14:20:25 +0200564_iso-8859-1 What a good detective! I can't tell you the hell I went thru arranging for a cellphone for our son in the States. Buying one there was prohibitive, either with 24 month contracts and high early termination charges or with pre=paid cards but you have to buy the phone, starting at $170....... so, we went with the company we use here - Orange. He had to change handsets and the charges are ridiculous (incoming local calls 0.81 pence (British) plus VAT per minute). I thought he could have gone without a cellphone at all, but Mother prevailed..... [...] 35590 46 22_Laurence Thomas Letter10_Jon Zatkin26_jzatkin@public2.bta.net.cn31_Thu, 30 May 2002 20:18:43 +0800638_iso-8859-1 Chevre,

Thanks to Dennis for this letter - makes sense to me. But such a lonely voice in the wilderness!

B'virkat chaverim,

Jon Zatkin San Francisco Ken Arafel 1959-65 12th Workshop Gesher Haziv, 1962-3 Chaver Gesher Haziv 1965-8

Please visit our Website: http://www.nscl-beijing.org |======================================== |Jon Zatkin email (H): jzatkin@public2.bta.net.cn |Head of School (O) jzatkin@nscl-beijing.org |The New School of Collaborative Learning |Shangdi, Haidian District PH: 8610-6298-5758 |Beijing, China 100085 FAX: 8610-6298-1620 |======================================== [...] 35637 538 30_FW: A Very Interesting Article11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Thu, 30 May 2002 06:40:24 -0700481_iso-8859-1

-----Original Message----- From: Marcia Plager [mailto:mplager@socal.rr.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2002 5:25 AM To: Mark and Etta Goldberg; Elly Krapek; David Remis; Deloris Hendrix; Doug and Renee Goldenberg-Schwartz; Dan Sline; Baruch Eichenbaum Subject: Fw: A Very Interesting Article



Please read this and go to his web site.

http://www.john-loftus.com/

Marcia





Subject: Re: A Very Interesting Article [...] 36176 29 14_Loftus article11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Thu, 30 May 2002 07:33:32 -0700371_iso-8859-1 Dear fellow Habonet subscribers.

The e-mail I sent concerning the work of John Loftus is probably one of the most interesting, frightening and important pieces of information you will ever get. The information is massive- and condemning. It would be a very good idea to read as much as possible, so that a healthy exchange of ideas can take place. [...] 36206 54 18_Re: Loftus article14_Hadar Susskind19_hadar34@hotmail.com31_Thu, 30 May 2002 14:45:36 +0000694_-

Steve,

Other than his web site, what do you know about this guy? The information certainly is massive and frightening, but I have learned not to believe everything I read on-line. I'm not saying this couldn't be true, but I would love to hear if you have any other info.

Thanks,

Hadar



>From: "Steve Klein" >Reply-To: habonet@shamash.org >To: >Subject: Loftus article >Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 07:33:32 -0700 > >Dear fellow Habonet subscribers. > >The e-mail I sent concerning the work of John Loftus is probably one of the >most interesting, frightening and important pieces of information you [...] 36261 286 9_Junk Food13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il31_Thu, 30 May 2002 17:54:37 +0200457_windows-1255 Yasser Arafat Cheese Snack Is a Hit Wed May 29,11:04 AM ET

CAIRO (Reuters) - Yasser Arafat (news - web sites) cheese puffs are the new hit snack on the streets of Egypt's capital.

Photos

Reuters Photo



A cartoon of the Palestinian leader salutes consumers from each 25-piastre ($0.05) bag of Abu Ammar chips, beckoning them to buy the snack and support a Palestinian uprising against Israeli occupation. [...] 36548 75 18_RE: Loftus article11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Thu, 30 May 2002 08:23:16 -0700711_iso-8859-1 Hadar

I will do some snooping. Meanwhile, if others on the net have additional information on Mr. Loftus, would you please share it with the rest of us?

Thanks

Steve Klein

-----Original Message----- From: owner-habonet@shamash.org [mailto:owner-habonet@shamash.org]On Behalf Of Hadar Susskind Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2002 7:46 AM To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: Re: Loftus article





Steve,

Other than his web site, what do you know about this guy? The information certainly is massive and frightening, but I have learned not to believe everything I read on-line. I'm not saying this couldn't be true, but I would love to hear if you have [...] 36624 16 18_Re: Loftus article0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Thu, 30 May 2002 11:22:53 EDT343_US-ASCII



------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 36641 26 18_Re: Loftus article0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Thu, 30 May 2002 11:27:14 EDT416_US-ASCII Steve,

The Loftus article makes me wonder about how America's foreign policy as a captive of the Saudi's has affected Israel's efforts in regard to the Palestinians, terrorism, intelligence gathering, etc.

The article made a siding reference to Pollard, as though he was punished for pursuing/passing Saudi terrorism info contrary to FBI/CIA instructions. What is the connection, if any? [...] 36668 65 42_Re: Government Panel on Kibbutz definition10_david baum23_rdbaum@netvision.net.il31_Thu, 30 May 2002 18:46:03 +0200485_windows-1255 ever get an answer. wondering who translates the minutes of the cabinet into english ----- Original Message ----- From: Jonathan Baum To: habonet@shamash.org Sent: Sunday, May 26, 2002 4:22 PM Subject: Re: Government Panel on Kibbutz definition



Yigal, could you tell us please where we can also read these minutes? As a kibbutznik millionaire, lying by my pool (trying not to get my keyboard soaked), I'd like to read some of the other comments. Thanks, Jon 36734 39 42_Re: Government Panel on Kibbutz definition13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il31_Thu, 30 May 2002 18:47:23 +020017_windows-1255 nope 36774 23 19_Pictures of Arafat?11_Batel Libes25_batel_libes@earthlink.net31_Thu, 30 May 2002 09:27:25 -0700486_iso-8859-1 Hi, Rumor has it that the Habonim office in NY is decorated with pictures of Arafat, as are some computers.

Is this true?

Batel



------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 36798 22 23_Re: Pictures of Arafat?0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Thu, 30 May 2002 14:08:17 EDT468_US-ASCII Batel,

Any idea about what poses he's in?

Ha, ha, caught you imagining some pretty gross stuff, didn't I.

Dennis

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 36821 17 23_Re: Pictures of Arafat?0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Thu, 30 May 2002 14:39:57 EDT467_US-ASCII The Mossad should infiltrate the processing plants and substitute figures of Torahs, the Israeli Flag, and the Peace dove---.....sue

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 36839 29 23_Re: Pictures of Arafat?11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Thu, 30 May 2002 14:43:07 -0400713_us-ascii

LiberHawke@aol.com wrote:

> The Mossad should infiltrate the processing plants and substitute figures of > Torahs, the Israeli Flag, and the Peace dove---.....sue

There's a processing plant for pictures to post at the Habonim office?

Tell me Sue, what poses are you suggesting for Torahs, the Israeli Flag, and the Peace dove?

;-)

Noam

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 36869 17 23_Re: Pictures of Arafat?0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Thu, 30 May 2002 14:51:14 EDT434_US-ASCII I am not sure about the Torah and the flag- but I know whose head the Dove should fly over!--- :).s

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 36887 32 23_RE: Pictures of Arafat?11_Batel Libes25_batel_libes@earthlink.net31_Thu, 30 May 2002 12:25:19 -0700473_us-ascii I know this might have sounded like a joke, but it actually wasn't. There is a great deal of concern among some that the photos are there as a political statement, one which will be transferred this summer to chanichim at machanot.

-----Original Message----- From: owner-habonet@shamash.org [mailto:owner-habonet@shamash.org]On Behalf Of LiberHawke@aol.com Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2002 11:51 AM To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: Re: Pictures of Arafat? [...] 36920 26 23_Re: Pictures of Arafat?0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Thu, 30 May 2002 15:48:31 EDT560_US-ASCII Batel,

I don't mean to be dense. Are you saying that these are like hero pictures? See, that is a joke. The current media twist is Arafat is out, and the poor Palestinians, who just want peace and freedom are in. Waving Arafat's picture around amounts to a symbol of being hopelessly out of touch with where the "street" is at this moment. I certainly don't want Habonim representatives - or employees, to be rooting not only for the wrong side, but for the fallen hero/nemisis of the wrong side. If they are let them go get jobs with the [...] 36947 16 23_Re: Pictures of Arafat?0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Thu, 30 May 2002 16:40:41 EDT402_US-ASCII I was talking about the cheese snacks being produced in Egypt...Sue

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 36964 26 36_Cheese snacks invade Habonim offices20_Naomi Goldberg Honor18_naomijgh@yahoo.com37_Thu, 30 May 2002 13:44:22 -0700 (PDT)406_us-ascii I have to say, I spotted the crossed wires in these messages, and got some enjoyment out of watching people discuss two different things at the same time. Sadly, it happens to me more often than I care to admit.

Naomi Goldberg Honor

__________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com [...] 36991 25 40_Re: Cheese snacks invade Habonim offices0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Thu, 30 May 2002 17:23:39 EDT340_US-ASCII The best thing is when the puffed up, over salted, non-nutritious, cheesy, greasy contents are gone... on their way to becoming excrement, you either toss the bag away and it becomes litter, or you recycle it into something useful. My considered opinion (aren't they all) is that AraFats will never beat Goldfish or Cheesits. [...] 37017 69 23_Re: Pictures of Arafat?0_14_KBob24@aol.com29_Thu, 30 May 2002 17:58:09 EDT539_US-ASCII In a message dated 5/30/2002 12:27:31 PM Eastern Daylight Time, batel_libes@earthlink.net writes:



> Hi, > Rumor has it that the Habonim office in NY is decorated with pictures of > Arafat, as are some computers. > > Is this true? > > Batel: > > There is no truth to this. The only picture on the wall in the office is of > Itzhak Rabin z"l. > > I have known for you for many years so I say this to you publicly as a > friend. I think saying something inflamitory like this publicly instead of > asking someone [...] 37087 238 23_RE: Pictures of Arafat?11_Batel Libes25_batel_libes@earthlink.net31_Thu, 30 May 2002 15:03:17 -0700545_us-ascii This came from a reliable source who said they saw the pictures.

-----Original Message----- From: owner-habonet@shamash.org [mailto:owner-habonet@shamash.org]On Behalf Of KBob24@aol.com Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2002 2:58 PM To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: Re: Pictures of Arafat?

In a message dated 5/30/2002 12:27:31 PM Eastern Daylight Time, batel_libes@earthlink.net writes:







Hi, Rumor has it that the Habonim office in NY is decorated with pictures of Arafat, as are some computers. [...] 37326 46 23_Re: Pictures of Arafat?0_14_BUBELE@aol.com29_Thu, 30 May 2002 20:46:54 EDT561_US-ASCII Batel, You have trouble revealing this so-called "reliable source" (reliable to whom?) which needlessly feeds the rumor mills. This sort of a response is far more representative of the kind of biased reporting much of the media does which unfairly implicates by innuendo. Surely you never learned this skewed responding through your Habonim experiences, did you? I agree with Ken that this kind of insinuating communication, when unsupported, does not belong on Habonet. It is more sensible to confirm the facts by directly contacting the office. [...] 37373 43 19_Ishmael a.k.a. Esau12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Fri, 31 May 2002 07:43:08 +0200578_us-ascii Dennis, Haverim/ot Further about a "ford in your future." I once wrote a book on American Jewish literature. One of it's main concerns was Zionism as the missing dimension in AJL. You may remember that the hero of Malamud's THE FIXER, which is fashioned on the Mendel Beiliss blood libel case was named Yakob Bok. In a surrealistic scene in a Russian prison "Yakob saw himself locked in combat with the Russian Emperor. They wrestled beard to beard in the dark until Nicholas proclaimed himself an angel of God and ascended into the sky." See Gen 32: 22 where you [...] 37417 35 23_Re: Pictures of Arafat?7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Fri, 31 May 2002 00:24:08 +0300383_iso-8859-1 Are you surprised?? .

----- Original Message ----- From: Batel Libes To: Habonet Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2002 7:27 PM Subject: Pictures of Arafat?



> Hi, > Rumor has it that the Habonim office in NY is decorated with pictures of > Arafat, as are some computers. > > Is this true? > > Batel > > > [...] 37453 44 18_Re: Loftus article7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Fri, 31 May 2002 00:29:52 +0300567_iso-8859-1 from what I remember of the case, Pollard discovered that the U.S. government was hiding intelligence information from Israel that it had a written agreement to share with Israel. I had understood it was important intelligence concerning Iran and Iraq, but never knew for sure. Pollard evidently made sure that Israel got that intelligence, despite the fact that America renaged on that agreement. pearl ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2002 6:27 PM Subject: Re: Loftus article [...] 37498 43 18_Re: Loftus article0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com29_Fri, 31 May 2002 07:21:29 EDT230_US-ASCII In a message dated 5/31/02 2:20:55 AM Eastern Daylight Time, skolnik@netvision.net.il writes:



> despite the fact that > America renaged on that agreement. >

Is that a misspelling, or a Freudian slip? 37542 58 26_Re: Pollard and agreements11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Fri, 31 May 2002 08:52:47 -0400473_us-ascii In the course of my research I don't recall encountering any mention that Pollard was acting to address a breach of some agreement. He was primarily making money. He may have had an ideological interest. He compromised US intelligence sources and methods which the US has a right to protect in order to assure a continued flow of intelligence information. Pollard did this in breach of his own oath and contractual obligations, and that is why he is in jail. [...] 37601 275 23_Re: Pictures of Arafat?14_Jessica Silver26_foundation@habonimdror.org31_Fri, 31 May 2002 09:08:51 -0400280_iso-8859-1 Like Ken said- there are no pictures of Yasser Arafat displayed in this office. Seeing as I work here every day, I think it's fair to say that I am a reliable source. And to be honest, as someone who works in the National office I find it an offensive accusation. [...] 37877 44 23_Re: Pictures of Arafat?11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Fri, 31 May 2002 09:07:40 -0400573_us-ascii What exactly are you trying to say Pearl?

What surprises me is that you read and contribute to this list given your disdain for the Movement today and many of the alumni on this list.

Skolnik wrote:

> Are you surprised?? > . > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Batel Libes > To: Habonet > Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2002 7:27 PM > Subject: Pictures of Arafat? > > > Hi, > > Rumor has it that the Habonim office in NY is decorated with pictures of > > Arafat, as are some computers. > > [...] 37922 37 37_Where there is a will, There is a way9_R. Shultz18_lzac@securenet.net31_Fri, 31 May 2002 09:09:04 -0400404_iso-8859-1 Beilin, Burg and PA officials talk peace in England By Sharon Sadeh, Ha'aretz, May 31, 2002

LONDON - An unofficial Israeli delegation, including Labor's Yossi Beilin and Knesset Speaker Avraham Burg, have held talks with an official Palestinian delegation in England regarding a new peace initiative, inspired in part by lessons learned from the peace process in northern Ireland. [...] 37960 122 32_Fwd: [LGSAlumni] FW: virus found0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Fri, 31 May 2002 09:17:53 EDT17_US-ASCII

38083 154 36_Re: Fwd: [LGSAlumni] FW: virus found11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Fri, 31 May 2002 09:32:43 -0400380_us-ascii Didn't we just go over this recently? From snopes.com:



Virus name: JDBGMGR.EXE.

Status: Hoax.

Example: [Collected on the Internet, 2002]



I got this message about a virus that can produce lot of dammage [sic] to your computer. If you follow the instructions which are very easy, you would be able to "clean" your computer. [...] 38238 48 38_Don NOT send virus warnings to habonet0_18_Brianscoop@aol.com29_Fri, 31 May 2002 09:49:57 EDT510_US-ASCII I've also said this before: Please - Do NOT send virus warnings to Habonet!!! If you have a question, feel free to ask, but do NOT send info telling people to delete files and such. Is this how you get your financial advice as well -- from Spam? C'mon folks, install and run and antivirus program -- and keep it up to date. And that's it. Do NOT delete files that someone in an email told you to -- that's just another form of virus, itself. And do NOT spread that advice, not on Habonet anyway. [...] 38287 504 23_RE: Pictures of Arafat?11_Batel Libes25_batel_libes@earthlink.net31_Fri, 31 May 2002 07:07:00 -0700359_iso-8859-1 Hi, Thank you for dispelling this rumor. I also want to say that I was not accusing anyone, rather presenting a question. I am sorry if I offended anyone and that people read this as if I was making a statement of fact. Please read my original post and see that I was presenting a question. Once again, sorry for any offense, intended or not. [...] 38792 16 31_Re: [LGSAlumni] FW: virus found0_15_DebALev@aol.com29_Fri, 31 May 2002 10:18:53 EDT377_US-ASCII This is one of the gazillion virus hoaxes.

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 38809 18 42_Re: Don NOT send virus warnings to habonet0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Fri, 31 May 2002 10:28:13 EDT355_US-ASCII Brian, Sorry. Dennis

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 38828 776 47_Fwd: [LGSAlumni] Re: virus found-Jdbgmgr- hoax!0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Fri, 31 May 2002 10:25:31 EDT60_US-ASCII Sorry. Disregard message concerning a virus. Dennis 39605 81 26_RE: Pollard and agreements13_Avi Goldstein24_habergo@barak-online.net31_Fri, 31 May 2002 17:34:44 +0200518_US-ASCII What has always bothered me the most about Pollard is that supposedly after the fiasco in the 50's in Egypt, Israeli policy was supposed to be not to use members of local Jewish communities as spies so as not to bring their loyalty into question.

Avi



-----Original Message----- From: owner-habonet@shamash.org [mailto:owner-habonet@shamash.org] On Behalf Of Noam Stopak Sent: Friday, May 31, 2002 2:53 PM To: Habonim Dror Alumni Virtual Machaneh Subject: Re: Pollard and agreements [...] 39687 95 13_Re: Junk Food0_23_stuhlman@mindspring.com31_Fri, 31 May 2002 12:28:23 -0400735_- Yes, but are they Halal? They would have had a sure winner if they would have his picture on some of those "Pop Rocks" candy wrappers.

On Thu, 30 May 2002 17:54:37 +0200 Jonathan Baum wrote:















Yasser Arafat Cheese Snack Is a Hit Wed May 29,11:04 AM ET





CAIRO (Reuters) - Yasser Arafat (news - web sites) cheese puffs are the new hit snack on the streets of Egypt's capital. [...] 39783 518 23_RE: Pictures of Arafat?11_Batel Libes25_batel_libes@earthlink.net31_Fri, 31 May 2002 09:30:59 -0700359_iso-8859-1 Hi, Thank you for dispelling this rumor. I also want to say that I was not accusing anyone, rather presenting a question. I am sorry if I offended anyone and that people read this as if I was making a statement of fact. Please read my original post and see that I was presenting a question. Once again, sorry for any offense, intended or not. [...] 40302 81 18_Re: Loftus article7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Fri, 31 May 2002 15:22:59 +0300344_iso-8859-1 I don't understand the freudian slip. I've been here too long, I guess. Could you tell me what it is, on the assumption it was? For me it was just a misspelling. shabat shalom, pearl ----- Original Message ----- From: Richardrdsmith@aol.com To: habonet@shamash.org Sent: Friday, May 31, 2002 2:21 PM Subject: Re: Loftus article [...] 40384 21 23_Re: Pictures of Arafat?0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Fri, 31 May 2002 17:00:35 EDT497_US-ASCII What about a contest about places to put pictures of Arafat.

Just to kick things off with the proper tone, I suggest single ply toilet paper.

Dennis

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 40406 21 23_Re: Pictures of Arafat?12_David Fleiss20_dfleiss@pipeline.com31_Fri, 31 May 2002 17:04:29 -0400567_- I guess great minds think alike, because I was thinking that his picture belonged in a men's urinal.

David





Dennis wrote:

What about a contest about places to put pictures of Arafat.

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------=