1 SHAMASH.ORG /usr/www/wwwhc/listserv/archives/habonet April 2002 2 17 18_Re: "Pretaliation"12_David Fleiss20_dfleiss@pipeline.com31_Mon, 01 Apr 2002 11:37:21 -0500352_- A few weeks ago, Dennis suggested that Israel adopt a policy of "pretaliation," announcing that when the next suicide bomber attacks, such-and-such Palestinian city will be levelled.

While I deplore such a "peace program," I thought it interesting that Alan Dershowitz has come under fire in recent weeks for making a similar suggestion. [...] 20 134 45_Re: Number of terrorists refusing to serve...9_yigalsela18_ysela@inter.net.il30_Mon, 1 Apr 2002 19:17:58 +0200484_windows-1255 Once again I ask for members of Habonet to get things into perspective. Israel is fighting a battle/war/Operation (YOU choose the word you prefer) as important to its survival as any previous war. This is not a matter of leaving or staying in The Occupied Territories...this is a fight for survival, for our right to live....We have reached the stage where... Pesach Festival of Theatre for Children in Haifa was called off because of the fear of suicide bombers... [...] 155 50 45_Re: Number of terrorists refusing to serve...11_Don Goelman25_don.goelman@villanova.edu31_Mon, 01 Apr 2002 13:04:00 -0500123_us-ascii Yigal,

You've indeed put things into perspective. Rav todot - our thoughts are with and for you.

Don 206 112 26_Between Religion and Humor12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Mon, 01 Apr 2002 23:10:53 +0200564_us-ascii

Haverot\im Things seem grim or at least unpromising. Have you ever noticed that as people grow older they become more religious? And that even the young, when they are frightened tend to embrace humor? I'd venture to say that the common denominator of both is denial. So first some humor. A rumor soon to be confirmed in Ha'aretz claims that Sharon has found time in the midst of all his tzores to address the energy crisis. He has put out the light at the end of the tunnel. Now religion. Far from being a uniting force it has fomented more [...] 319 86 30_Re: Between Religion and Humor0_18_DLerner569@aol.com28_Mon, 1 Apr 2002 16:33:13 EST554_US-ASCII Amnon, I read each of your postings as if it were directed to me personally, and therefore, I am often moved to respond. When reading your discussion of Martin Buber and the chosenness of the people and the land, I was in touch with the feeling that I have had since at least my days at Gesher Haziv, that without question I would give my life (literally) to preserve either or both the people and the land. This is not a prediction, and I am not subject to being brainwashed. This "understanding" is the only place where I comfortably see [...] 406 50 12_Action Alert34_Stern & Associates / HR Consultant22_stern@hrconsultant.com31_Mon, 01 Apr 2002 14:19:26 -0800639_US-ASCII Forwarded from a good friend in Colorado:

We are receiving word from friends in Washington D.C. that Muslims and their Jihad sympathizers are bombarding the White House with phone calls, faxes, and e-mails protesting President Bush's strong stand against Muslim Terror directed towards Israel and her civilians.

We must all get on the phone today, tomorrow, and the remainder of this week and keep calling the White House everyday to thank President Bush and encourage him to stand strong with America's ONLY ally in the Mid East, Israel and her right to use ALL means possible against Arafat's terror machine. [...] 457 101 34_[FWD: A washingtonpost.com article0_23_rebshloime@netscape.net31_Mon, 01 Apr 2002 18:06:45 -0500526_iso-8859-1 Hello!

I am forwarding a Washington Post commentary, on long range persepctives, that I think is worth reading. Amnon, wasn't Martin Buber involved with a Brit Shalom, a group for Jewish/Arab reconcilliation? All the best on your trip to Prague,

Shloime



__________________________________________________________________ Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop@Netscape! http://shopnow.netscape.com/ [...] 559 149 29_Israeli March Against the War9_R. Shultz18_lzac@securenet.net30_Mon, 1 Apr 2002 20:36:13 -0500532_iso-8859-1 MARCH AGAINST THE WAR Wednesday, April 3, at 11.30 am >From A-Ram Checkpoint in north Jerusalem to Kalandia at the edge of occupied Ramallah. Gush Shalom will join this march, to protest Sharon's War, to express our worry and dismay at what the army is perpetrating in our name. The following groups take part in this action (alphabetical): Bat-Shalom, Committee of Arab Students, Gush Shalom, Hakampus Lo Shotek, New Profile, Peace Now, The Fifth Mother, Ta'ayush, Women's Coalition for a Just Peace, Women Refuse. [...] 709 51 6_re: eu9_R. Shultz18_lzac@securenet.net30_Mon, 1 Apr 2002 20:57:36 -0500631_iso-8859-1 >Moshe Sheskin wrote: >Sam, >That was extremely interesting. So what happened? I imagine thatwith Arafat's rejection of Barak's >proposal, everything is at a standstill and this document would be relegated to history. >Please give me your impressions and thanks again.

>Moshe

Hello,

If I may respond to this question, if you happen to read the article by Yossi Beilin which was sent out the other day you will notice that the reason the peace plan wasn't accepted was that Sharon was elected PM. And if you recall, Sharon was a vociferous opponent to Oslo. Why would Sharon proceed beyond Oslo [...] 761 23 6_re: eu11_Don Goelman25_don.goelman@villanova.edu31_Mon, 01 Apr 2002 22:18:05 -0500299_us-ascii > The talks in Taba were continued in the spirit of Oslo which was > one of > mutual respect. But their outcome was rejected by Sharon, who is > an old dog, > who refuses to learn new tricks.

... was rejected by ... WHOM? Surely this is some kind of revised version of history. [...] 785 42 6_Re: eu9_R. Shultz18_lzac@securenet.net30_Mon, 1 Apr 2002 23:24:55 -0500425_iso-8859-1 the negotiators respected each other. but the civic conduct of the negotiators was not reflected in civic society. Nor was the diplomatic channel pursued after the election. Sharon rejected the diplomatic path travelled in Taba.

This point is part of a revised version of history. The usual narrative which ends the negotiations with the failure at camp david in July 2000 is unfortunately incomplete. [...] 828 22 6_Re: eu0_18_DLerner569@aol.com28_Tue, 2 Apr 2002 00:23:31 EST452_US-ASCII I appreciate the sentiment, but it seems fairly clear to me that the Palestinian authority has failed in each case to live up to its end of the bargain step by step and worse has acted contrarily to its agreements. Whatever his inner beliefs or objectives, it seems to me that Sharon has been acting on the premise (unaccepted by the arabs) that Israel is not obligated to go further than the arabs in implementing its agreements. Dennis [...] 851 31 7_borders12_Doug Greener25_ddwgreen@netvision.net.il31_Tue, 02 Apr 2002 08:58:29 +0300391_iso-8859-1 I am becoming increasingly disturbed by our use of the words "pre-67 borders."

Perhaps things should be put into perspective by calling them the "cease-fire lines" in place after the 1948 War. The actual borders of Israel were supposed to have been negotiated after the cease-fire was put into place. There is no legal legitimacy to these lines as recognized borders. [...] 883 102 18_Support for ISRAEL9_yigalsela18_ysela@inter.net.il30_Tue, 2 Apr 2002 13:46:31 +0200379_windows-1255 To no great suprise, Europe (with France at its head) is taking its usual pro-Arab/anti Israel stand. President Bush (is for the moment) continuing America's traditional support for Israel, especially at its hour of need.





I also understand that Bush is under pressure from pro-Arab groups, (receiving e mails etc. ) to change his policy. [...] 986 59 26_Between Religion and Humor12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Tue, 02 Apr 2002 16:19:56 +0200516_us-ascii Dennis I think that when you write "In all the other respects of my life I am deeply rational and pragmatic, carefully seeing both sides of every issue, and searching for the rightness of every position" you are certainly not flying under false colors. You have added a dimension often missing in our discussions. You have the grace of a good writer , the intellectual honesty to look at both sides of issues and the Haverschaft (wonderful old word - heart warming concept) of acceptance of the other. [...] 1046 57 10_no subject12_Doug Greener25_ddwgreen@netvision.net.il31_Tue, 02 Apr 2002 10:17:49 +0300608_windows-1255

We have been told by our friends in Washington that the White House is receiving very significant numbers of emails protesting President Bush's strong support for Israel. It is of the utmost importance that we show our support for the President's pro-Israel stand. NOW. Please 1. Pass this on to all your Jewish and pro-Israel email lists. 2. Write a short, personal email to the President - Have the subject line say something like "Thank you for standing with Israel." President bush's email address is: President@whitehouse.gov Every email sent to the White House is read and counted. 1104 809 7_Subject12_Doug Greener25_ddwgreen@netvision.net.il31_Tue, 02 Apr 2002 10:18:06 +0300544_windows-1255 HonestReporting members have asked for evidence of Palestinians using ambulances in military operations.

On March 27, a Palestinian Red Crescent ambulance driver was caught transporting an explosive belt containing 10 kilograms of explosives of the type detonated by suicide bombers, Israel Radio reported. The ambulance was stopped and searched between Nablus and Ramallah, and soldiers found the explosive belt under a stretcher upon which a Palestinian boy was lying. The boy's family was with him in the ambulance. [...] 1914 790 7_Subject12_Doug Greener25_ddwgreen@netvision.net.il31_Tue, 02 Apr 2002 10:18:35 +0300619_windows-1255 OPEN LETTER

to President George Bush:

Time to Declare the Palestinian Authority

a Hostile Organization

By Jock L. Falkson falkson@netvision.net.il

March 29, 2002



Yesterday Mr. Kofi Anan, United Nations’ Secretary General called on Israel and the Palestinian Authority (PA) to declare an immediate cease-fire.





This must be among the strangest announcements made by the world’s ranking diplomat speaking in the name of the United Nations. Israel has bona fide status as a UN member. The PA does not. Who then do the PA represent? [...] 2705 68 6_Re: eu0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com28_Tue, 2 Apr 2002 08:21:28 EST337_US-ASCII In a message dated 4/1/02 8:56:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, lzac@securenet.net writes:



> > The talks in Taba were continued in the spirit of Oslo which was one of > mutual respect. But their outcome was rejected by Sharon, who is an old > dog, > who refuses to learn new tricks. > > Reuven Shultz > Montreal [...] 2774 18 11_Re: borders0_18_DLerner569@aol.com28_Tue, 2 Apr 2002 09:14:41 EST359_US-ASCII Trudy, Excellent. Dennis

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 2793 926 33_OpinionJournal - Featured Article16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Tue, 02 Apr 2002 10:43:17 -050082_us-ascii

http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=105001849 3720 1218 18_Ha'aretz - Article16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Tue, 02 Apr 2002 10:47:16 -0500129_us-ascii

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=147960&contrassID=3&subContrassID=0&sbSubContrassID=0 4939 102 30_Peaceful Co-existence in Efrat11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org30_Tue, 2 Apr 2002 10:56:46 -0600633_ISO-8859-1

David Bedein: Peaceful Coexistence in Efrat 01 April 2002

Why was the Arab suicide attack in Efrat different from all other suicide attacks? Because it was directed against the medical services that Arabs receive from the community of Efrat.

Late in the afternoon of Sunday, March 31, 2002, which this year was both the fourth day of Passover and on Easter Sunday, an explosion rocked Efrat. My wife, typing away yet another e-mail to one of many corresponding women from the world over, looked around the living room to see that the children were okay and resumed her correspondence, including [...] 5042 90 6_Re: eu11_Don Goelman25_don.goelman@villanova.edu31_Tue, 02 Apr 2002 13:02:42 -0500627_us-ascii Something else is "unfortunately incomplete" about this account; someone else's name is missing whose responsibility for the current tragedy so overshadows Sharon that the PM's seems negligible.

Here are some hints: while we were singing the "salaam" song in the mid to late 90's and producing textbooks acknowledging the Palestinians' misfortunes, he was talking jihad, he was denying the extent of the Holocaust, he was using Italian money to produce texts that denied any historic Jewish connection to Jerusalem and Israel, and his wife was accusing Israel of using poison gas against the Palestinians. [...] 5133 131 14_The Ron Family9_yigalsela18_ysela@inter.net.il30_Tue, 2 Apr 2002 19:52:38 +0200450_windows-1255



The Ron family were a typical "salt of the earth" Israeli family. They lived in Haifa; Eliav, a colonel in the reserves, participated in the team that developed the Merkava Tank. Together with his wife, Carmit , they brought up two children; like others, they had hoped that when their children reached the age of 18 maybe they would not have to join the army to defend their country but maybe join the Peace Corps. [...] 5265 171 25_[Fwd: to post on Habonet]16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Tue, 02 Apr 2002 13:43:34 -050091_us-ascii I'm forwarding this post to Habonet at the request of LZA President Jeffry Mallow. 5437 17 22_We are with you Israel11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org30_Tue, 2 Apr 2002 16:26:37 -0600404_us-ascii Please read and sign if you agree.

http://www.our-support.com/

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 5455 117 3_FW:16_Sharon Weissbach12_sw@iglou.com30_Tue, 2 Apr 2002 17:38:32 -0500413_iso-8859-1 Every time you fill up the car, you can avoid putting more money into the coffers of Saudi Arabia. Just buy from gas companies that don't import their oil from the Saudis.

Nothing is more frustrating than the feeling that every time I fill-up the tank, I am sending my money to terrorists. I thought it might be interesting for you to know which oil companies are the best to buy gas from. [...] 5573 105 25_Letter from a Palestinian0_23_rebshloime@netscape.net31_Tue, 02 Apr 2002 19:57:29 -0500590_iso-8859-1 Hello All,

This letter from a Palestinian appeared on the interactive site Salaam_v_Shalom.

Shloime > Dear friends,

I'm writing to you from home, the tanks is around my house, and the shooting and shelling of the tanks are very loud, and I can't leave my house, my children are afraid, and I'm trying to persuade them to watch television, but even the good films are not attracting them. The fear is very high and the stories from different places are very difficult and hard to beleive. I beleived all my life that even with the soldiers I can speak , [...] 5679 263 3_RE:11_Batel Libes25_batel_libes@earthlink.net30_Tue, 2 Apr 2002 19:41:26 -0800476_iso-8859-1 Sadly, none of the companies that do not import oil is located on the West Coast. Batel

-----Original Message----- From: owner-habonet@shamash.org [mailto:owner-habonet@shamash.org]On Behalf Of Sharon Weissbach Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2002 2:39 PM To: Habonet Subject: FW:

Every time you fill up the car, you can avoid putting more money into the coffers of Saudi Arabia. Just buy from gas companies that don't import their oil from the Saudis. [...] 5943 18 3_Re:0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com28_Tue, 2 Apr 2002 22:56:11 EST543_US-ASCII Batel- I mentioned this when it came around the first time- and found out tht some of these east-coast companies are owned by conglomerates and have west coast companies- but I never found out which ones..sue

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 5962 142 35_Re: Call for articles for Chadashot21_Tsippi (Frances) Rudy16_tsippi@attbi.com31_Tue, 02 Apr 2002 20:22:59 -0800627_us-ascii Dear Trilby,

Beyond the dates of June 8/9, have any plans been solidified for the anniversary celebration? It would be good to post updates from time to time, also any possibility of local chevre providing housing for the weekend? Who is in charge of organizing this?

Bivracha,

Tsippi



At 12:53 PM 3/31/02, you wrote: >Dear Habonetters, > >As many of you are probably aware, there is a big June >celebration being planned for the 50th Anniversary of >the Workshop program in New York City. As part of >this event, we are publishing an issue of Chadashot, >the newsletter of the [...] 6105 16 7_Re: Oil0_13_JLCAA@aol.com28_Tue, 2 Apr 2002 23:45:14 EST362_US-ASCII Isn't Amaco part of BP now?

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 6122 128 11_Monthly FAQ12_Jennifer Kay19_kay@elvis.rowan.edu31_Wed, 03 Apr 2002 02:32:03 -0500415_- Actually-from:brianscoop@aol.com

Hi Chevre,

Here is a reminder of the "essential" commands that you can use to configure your subscription to Habonet. I will post this monthly from now on. Please note -- The address for commands is: listproc@shamash.org whereas the address for posts to the list is: habonet@shamash.org If you need any help with any of it, send me an email: brianscoop@aol.com [...] 6251 107 51_=?windows-1255?B?4fLw6envOiBUaGUgUm9uIEZhbWlseQ==?=8_ericmoli25_ericmoli@netvision.net.il31_Wed, 03 Apr 2002 12:12:03 +0200605_windows-1255

----- Original Message ----- From: yigalsela To: Habonet@Shamash. Org Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2002 7:52 PM Subject: The Ron Family







The Ron family were a typical "salt of the earth" Israeli family. They lived in Haifa; Eliav, a colonel in the reserves, participated in the team that developed the Merkava Tank. Together with his wife, Carmit , they brought up two children; like others, they had hoped that when their children reached the age of 18 maybe they would not have to join the army to defend their country but maybe join the Peace Corps. [...] 6359 35 2_EU16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Wed, 03 Apr 2002 12:27:43 -0500644_us-ascii Reuven Shultz suggested that the Taba talks were rejected by Sharon. Not so. He wasn't the PM then. We need to get our historical facts straight. PA communications chief Imad el-Faluji admitted in early October of 2000 that Arafat ordered these latest troubles put into effect immediately upon leaving Camp David in September. This means that Sharon's ill-conceived har habayit walkabout was merely a convenient coincidence for Arafat. More recently, subsequent to Israel's seizure of Orient House in Jerusalem, PA papers came to light revealing that Arafat was working hard to bring down Barak, to be replaced by Sharon, because [...] 6395 102 21_haaretz opinion piece11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Wed, 03 Apr 2002 12:34:55 -0500339_us-ascii



Seems there are those in the Israeli press who don't believe Sharon's plan, to the extent he has one, will lead to an improved situation. And here I thought it was just the duped liberals in the US.

Noam

>From Ha'aretz Wednesday, April 03, 2002 Nisan 21, 5762:

Hanging hopes on the joker [...] 6498 113 13_the dim light13_Yuval Warshai16_warshais@tir.com30_Wed, 3 Apr 2002 12:47:03 -0500478_iso-8859-1 For me, this is the light at the end of this nightmare, this horrible dark bloody tunnel we are in now. ___ |Y| ^^^

----- Copyright 2002 The New York Times Company -----

April 3, 2002

The Hard Truth

By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN

A terrible disaster is in the making in the Middle East. What Osama bin Laden failed to achieve on Sept. 11 is now being unleashed by the Israeli-Palestinian war in the West Bank: a clash of civilizations. [...] 6612 443 23_A look at alternatives.0_18_DLerner569@aol.com28_Wed, 3 Apr 2002 15:07:26 EST547_UTF-8 Clearly I have to much time on my hands, but what better use of that time than to try to generate some light -- and who knows maybe a little heat as well.

I find it helpful in my own thinking to examine all of the options related to a situation. This includes those that are ridiculous, or dismissed out of hand, or previously tried and failed. Sometimes by this process I find an overlooked alternative, or a factor that might be different now than previously, and in any case wind up feeling more confident in the view I hold. [...] 7056 500 10_No Subject12_Doug Greener25_ddwgreen@netvision.net.il31_Wed, 03 Apr 2002 21:14:48 +0300698_windows-1255 Dear friends,

I believe that you will find the following analysis informative. It is long but very interesting and worth reading. Please pass it on.

Nachman

Subject: Wall Street Journal 4/2/02



History Isn't on Palestinians' Side



By VICTOR DAVIS HANSON





For all the efforts of our contemporary theorists to harness and sometimes refashion history, the facts of the past belong to no one -- and won't go away. Those who conjure it up often discover to their dismay that they themselves are subject to its brutal laws of truth. The Palestinians are fast learning of history's ironies and unintended reminders, [...] 7557 1539 58_[FWD: Ha'aretz - Article.htm] On Attempted Delivery of Aid0_23_rebshloime@netscape.net31_Wed, 03 Apr 2002 18:32:00 -0500557_iso-8859-1 Thanks for your article, Dennis. I'll read it seriously. Every tragedy is heartbreaking. Just speaking for myself, I don't think the way to end the tragedies is through massive military action. Let everyone argue their perspectives, though, without expecting everyone else to follow.

Shloime



__________________________________________________________________ Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop@Netscape! http://shopnow.netscape.com/ [...] 9097 19 62_Re: [FWD: Ha'aretz - Article.htm] On Attempted Delivery of Aid0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com28_Wed, 3 Apr 2002 19:23:55 EST614_US-ASCII Sol- I respect your rights to have your own opinions, but it seems all you do is post negative articles abot Israel- do you have ANYTHING positive to say about the country that absorbed millions of its own immigrants and brought the world agricultural and medical advances? - sue

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 9117 25 23_Re: HABONET digest 219617_Neil P. Korostoff12_npk1@psu.edu30_Wed, 3 Apr 2002 21:38:01 -050041_us-ascii How do I unsubscribe to Habonet? 9143 22 62_Re: [FWD: Ha'aretz - Article.htm] On Attempted Delivery of Aid0_18_DLerner569@aol.com28_Wed, 3 Apr 2002 21:55:33 EST585_US-ASCII Sol,

I'm very glad that there are people of pure heart like yourself, and I am proud to know you. You keep us in touch with how the world should work and what we must aim for, your view must always be a key part of the calculus. Thanks, Dennis

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 9166 17 13_60 Minutes II11_Batel Libes25_batel_libes@earthlink.net30_Wed, 3 Apr 2002 20:13:14 -0800401_iso-8859-1 Hi, Has anyone out there seen tonight's 60 Minutes II? Thoughts?

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 9184 374 107_Sticking Together: The Israeli Experiment in Pluralism by Robert E. Litan and Yaakov Kop by Gilbert Steiner16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Thu, 04 Apr 2002 04:31:23 -0500313_us-ascii The following blurb with order form appears on the Brookings Institute's webpage. It occured to me that we need some things other than the "troubles" (as my Irish friends would phrase our situation) to consider.





http://www.brookings.edu/dybdocroot/press/books/sticking_together.htm 9559 29 19_another alternative16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Thu, 04 Apr 2002 05:02:01 -0500456_us-ascii Dennis Lerner presented a list of alternatives. I proffer another one. By analogy.

In 1943, Roosevelt and Churchill determined that the only acceptable outcome to World War II would be the unconditional surrender of Nazi Germany and imperial Japan. They decided that those two regimes were beyond the pale of acceptance and would have to be extirpated. Following their destruction, the allies (largely the US) rebuilt those societies. [...] 9589 48 52_Re: HABONET digest 2196 - how to unsubscribe (again)11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Thu, 04 Apr 2002 08:02:10 -0500507_us-ascii "Neil P. Korostoff" wrote:

> How do I unsubscribe to Habonet? > -- > ****************************************************************************** > Neil Korostoff, Associate Professor > Department of Landscape Architecture > Room 210 Unit D > The Pennsylvania State University > University Park, PA 16802 > Tel: 814-863-8134 Fax: 814-863-8137 > ****************************************************************************

Hi Neil,

Please convey my warm regards to Gail. [...] 9638 17 79_Re: Sticking Together: The Israeli Experiment in Pluralism by Robert E. Lita...0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com28_Thu, 4 Apr 2002 10:12:39 EST475_US-ASCII Thank you Elihu for that article, which, in these terrible times, reminds us of the incredible achievements of this tiny space on earth..sue

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 9656 81 37_Amos Oz article from YNET, translated11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org30_Thu, 4 Apr 2002 10:05:41 -0600599_us-ascii This is an excellent article. It was written by Amos Oz and translated by Dovik Ashdot and Lilly Rivlin.



TWO WARS ARE BEING CARRIED OUT HERE

by Amos Oz (translated loosely from an article that appeared in Yidot Achronot two days ago)

There are two wars here. One is utterly just and the other is saturated with wrong doing. There are two wars here, one is the war of the Palestinian people and their right to liberate themselves from the occupation and establish an independent state. Any decent person would support this goal. The other war is the war of [...] 9738 75 23_Re: another alternative21_Tsippi (Frances) Rudy16_tsippi@attbi.com31_Thu, 04 Apr 2002 11:58:48 -0800675_us-ascii Hear, Hear (not here, here)!

At 02:02 AM 4/4/02, you wrote: >Dennis Lerner presented a list of alternatives. I proffer another one. >By analogy. > >In 1943, Roosevelt and Churchill determined that the only acceptable >outcome to World War II would be the unconditional surrender of Nazi >Germany and imperial Japan. They decided that those two regimes were >beyond the pale of acceptance and would have to be extirpated. >Following their destruction, the allies (largely the US) rebuilt those >societies. > >Given the entitities with which Israel is dealing, their racism, >bigotry, anti-Semitism and duplicity--well, maybe Roosevelt and >Churchill were [...] 9814 88 23_what terror does to you7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Thu, 04 Apr 2002 23:06:34 +0300559_windows-1255 shalom,

I have read that there are many people demonstrating against Israel these days, and it seems like the world has forgotten -- or never seen -- the horrific pictures of the results of Arab terror attacks. Perhaps people do not know what terror does, not only to those killed and maimed, but to those who witness it or who bury the victims. Israel is an entire country living in fear: fear of going to the bank, to a cafe, to any public place, to weddings and other simchas. Fear to walk a dog at night thinking that a terrorist [...] 9903 293 91_[FWD: Fwd: NYTimes.com Article: A Little Town in Judea, Besieged by Israelis and by Grief ]0_23_rebshloime@netscape.net31_Thu, 04 Apr 2002 17:26:11 -0500362_iso-8859-1 I don't think this war will be good for Israel, in any way, whether in terms of security or the welfare of the country in general. And it's undeniable that there are many innocent victims of the war -- there's no way of getting around it. I don't think the massive military action was necessary, and it could well create a humanitarian disaster. [...] 10197 39 95_Re: [FWD: Fwd: NYTimes.com Article: A Little Town in Judea, Besieged by Israelis and by Grief ]0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com28_Thu, 4 Apr 2002 18:30:06 EST631_US-ASCII

In a message dated 4/5/02 6:34:17 AM, rebshloime@netscape.net writes:

<< And it's undeniable that there are many innocent

victims of the war -- >>

What about the families wiped out in the terrorist suicide bombings- a mother lost her two children and her husband; the families wiped out in Jerusalem bombings, and those lost at the seder? The horror is undeniably -even stated by Bush - the repsonsibility of the leader of the Palestinian people; it is terrible that innocent people fall victim- but put the o-nes where it belongs. This "war" finally may bring about some kind of lasting [...] 10237 19 32_In Ramallah we founded Palestine11_Batel Libes25_batel_libes@earthlink.net30_Thu, 4 Apr 2002 22:39:12 -0800515_iso-8859-1 Link to the Haaretz article by Ze'ev Sternhell:

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=148558&contrassID =2&subContrassID=4&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 10257 23 36_Re: In Ramallah we founded Palestine0_13_SC523@aol.com31_Fri, 05 Apr 2002 02:35:42 -0500469_iso-8859-1 Batel,

This is all I could get to come up. Can you simply paste the article into unformatted email so we can all read it easily? THanks, Aliya

In Ramallah we founded Palestine

By Ze'ev Sternhell

Had PM Sharon's Israel intended to grant the Palestinians the gift they so desired, and tried to help them create a national epic in the course of struggling for independence on the battlefield - it could not have done otherwise. [...] 10281 156 6_Re: eu9_R. Shultz18_lzac@securenet.net30_Fri, 5 Apr 2002 03:08:27 -0500435_iso-8859-1 In this dialogue here we have been discussing what happened after the Camp David negotiations broke down. M. Sheskin registered surprise that after Camp David negotiations continued at Taba, which indicated that the two sides were close to an agreement. But whatever progress was made, by the negotiators, was not followed up. In February 1991 Sharon was elected, and with his election the negotiations were abandoned. [...] 10438 112 30_Re: Between Religion and Humor9_R. Shultz18_lzac@securenet.net30_Fri, 5 Apr 2002 03:36:21 -0500660_iso-8859-1 Hi Amnon. Your postings are very appreciated. I just want to add something to your last comment and your quote from Shloime regarding Brith Shalom, and the ideas it generated.

The cultures of Zionism are in a deep conflict today. This is reflected, partly, by the way intellectual leaders of the past are depicted. Recently I read Yoram Hazony's revisionist history of Zionism. In his opinion, the cultural leaders of present day Israel, the writers, painters, historians, poets, painters, etc. are not sufficiently patriotic and are actually harmful, because that gang surrounding Martin Buber exerted an enormous influence through its [...] 10551 118 36_Re: In Ramallah we founded Palestine20_Gayle, Mark and Ayah18_sarazen@rogers.com30_Fri, 5 Apr 2002 06:17:49 -0500731_iso-8859-1 >Can you simply paste the article into unformatted email so we can all read it easily? THanks, Aliya

Here you go Aliya...

Gayle Charach ____________________________________________________________________________ ________ Friday, April 05, 2002 Nisan 23, 5762 Israel Time: 14:16 (GMT+3)



In Ramallah we founded Palestine

By Ze'ev Sternhell



Had Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's Israel intended to grant the Palestinians the gift they so desired, and tried to help them create a national epic in the course of struggling for independence on the battlefield - it could not have done otherwise. In the streets of Ramallah and Qalqiliyah legends are now being created upon [...] 10670 84 86_SHLOMO BEN-AMI from the NYT - feedback from chevre in Israel (and elsewhere) solicited11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Fri, 05 Apr 2002 10:38:51 -0500692_iso-8859-1 I wonder if especially the Israeli chevre could comment on this. I'm wondering to what extent Mr. Ben-Ami's views reflects those of the general population.

Thanks,

Noam

++

April 5, 2002

Bush's Mideast Opportunity

By SHLOMO BEN-AMI

ERUSALEM — The collapse of all the mechanisms of peacemaking between Israel and the Palestinians into waves of Islamic suicide terrorism on the one hand, and Israel's dangerously escalating military responses on the other, should convince those who have been skeptical of an international solution that a settlement, if there is to be one, will have to come internationally, not from the parties [...] 10755 43 48_Fw: 113 Educational Websites about the Holocaust7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Fri, 05 Apr 2002 17:03:26 +0300747_iso-8859-1

----- Original Message ----- From: Jacob Richman To: Informal Aliyah discussion group Sent: Friday, April 05, 2002 11:02 AM Subject: OT: 113 Educational Websites about the Holocaust



> Holocaust Remembrance Day is Tuesday, April 9. > I posted on my website 113 links to learn about the Holocaust. > > The web address is: > > > > http://www.jr.co.il/hotsites/j-holoc.htm > > > > We must not forget. > Jacob > > ------------------------ tachlis@shamash.org -----------------------+ > Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org > A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an > online [...] 10799 28 80_Re: [FWD: Fwd: NYTimes.com Article: A Little Town in Judea, Besieged by Israe...0_18_DLerner569@aol.com28_Fri, 5 Apr 2002 11:10:56 EST504_US-ASCII Dear Sol and Sue,

I am confident the Sol was referencing innocents on both sides. I don't know whether it is a good thing or a bad thing but the tanks have certainly brought the sub current of anti-semitism in Europe, the Middle East, and America to the surface and out into the open. the sympathy the Palestians receive in media and letters to the editors, etc. can only make sense if it is seen as a reflection of the anti-Jewish sentiment that continues to flourish in the world. [...] 10828 29 90_Re: SHLOMO BEN-AMI from the NYT - feedback from chevre in Israel (and elsewhere) solicited13_Yuval Warshai16_warshais@tir.com30_Fri, 5 Apr 2002 11:21:19 -0500631_iso-8859-1 Noam,

Ben-Ami's insight complements the thinking in the Friedman article I posted two days ago. All these plans are based on the premise that a settlement of the conflict cannot be based only on a mutual agreement between Israelis and Palestinians. Any plan that is to succeed needs to be an international plan that regulates the future relations between the two peoples and is monitored and enforced by the military power of the US and its allies, preferably NATO. That is the only hope of dismantling any settlements, compensating all refugees, and reaching viable borders with which future generations on [...] 10858 47 36_Re: In Ramallah we founded Palestine0_18_DLerner569@aol.com28_Fri, 5 Apr 2002 11:36:13 EST304_US-ASCII I agree with much of the article. We have been manipulated by Arafat into putting in power the man who will sow seeds of future conflict and hate against Israel, and lead to the formation of a Palestinian state on terms that are internationally forced upon us rather than negotiated by us. [...] 10906 34 30_Re: Between Religion and Humor0_18_DLerner569@aol.com28_Fri, 5 Apr 2002 11:50:33 EST381_US-ASCII Reuven,

Back in the dark ages of the past. I think it was in a posting on Habonet a year ago of an article, the point was made that the Palestinians have assumed the traditional mantle of the Jews as oppressed underdogs, who have been driven by the lack of land to become doctors, lawyers and professors, like Jews over represented in the learned professions. [...] 10941 27 79_Re: SHLOMO BEN-AMI from the NYT - feedback from chevre in Israel (and elsewh...0_18_DLerner569@aol.com28_Fri, 5 Apr 2002 11:59:54 EST585_US-ASCII As an American and a Democrat, I see a delicious irony possible here. Colin Powell achieves nothing - including no withdrawal of the IDF until their mission is complete. In a miscalculated effort to pass the buck or put himself in a win-win situation, Bush asks Clinton to go to the Middle East with Carte Blanche (subject to US approval of expenses and US commitments). Clinton wrings a peace deal on less positive terms for the Palestinians, and gets the neighboring Arab states to sign on as the fulfillment of the Saudi vision, with some nasty concession from the US [...] 10969 34 26_Lovers and divorce tactics0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com28_Fri, 5 Apr 2002 12:19:53 EST572_US-ASCII I think that sometmes we bend over backwards to try and understand and "sympathize with" the Palestinian mindset- forgetting that we are doing what lovers do- expecting them to behave as we do and have the same values and dreams as we do...But let's face it- THEY as a people picked ARAFAT as THEIR leader- and the problem is that now we AND they ( talking about the "innocents" ) find ourselves with two leaders who can not possibly broker a peace plan alone- but need the intervention of a mediator- or outside pressures. Sharon is only doing what America [...] 11004 114 28_Preventing an unhappy ending0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com28_Fri, 5 Apr 2002 17:19:46 EST692_US-ASCII



Preventing an unhappy ending

By Ze'ev Schiff







How will the large-scale military operation that Israel is now waging against the Palestinian Authority end? The outcome will be poor should, when the operation comes to an end, Palestinian terror returns to square one, even if there are numerous military triumphs, a pullback of IDF troops from Palestinian cities, the release of reserve soldiers and the possible acceptance by Arafat of some of U.S. mediator Zinni's ideas. With a return to terror, we will have to re-mobilize the reserves, re-enter Palestinian cities and start all over again. The Palestinians will be living [...] 11119 166 36_NYTimes.com Article: Kids With Bombs0_23_rebshloime@netscape.net31_Fri, 05 Apr 2002 17:51:16 -0500385_iso-8859-1 Maybe this New York Times commentary piece should be added to the Haaretz article on Ramallah, unfortunately. I'm convinced that this war is no better for Israel than the 1982 war. It wasn't the only response possible to the murderous suicide bombers.

But in the meatime, Gut Shabbes/Shabbat Shalom,

Shloime







Kids With Bombs [...] 11286 243 19_Fwd: Barrels of Oil0_18_Judithb253@aol.com28_Fri, 5 Apr 2002 20:55:19 EST17_US-ASCII

11530 60 18_Re: Barrels of Oil13_Gayle Charach18_sarazen@rogers.com30_Fri, 5 Apr 2002 21:46:27 -0500479_iso-8859-1 Here it is for those who don't accept attachments. Shabbat Shalom,

Gayle Charach ________________________________________________________ Where to buy gasoline and not support terrorism.. Actually is food for thought. Yisrael Medad of the Begin Center sent the following information. Every time you fill up the car, you can avoid putting more money into the coffers of Saudi Arabia. Just buy from gas companies that don't import their oil from the Saudis. [...] 11591 75 29_Jurist - Middle East Conflict11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org30_Sat, 6 Apr 2002 07:06:28 -0600848_us-ascii This may be of interest.



> >JURIST Update - April 5, 2002 >An e-mail service of JURIST: The Legal Education Network >http://jurist.law.pitt.edu > >Featuring... > >THE MIDDLE EAST CONFLICT >- legal background, human rights reports, news and commentary > >World Law: Palestinian Authority >http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/world/palest.htm > >World Law: Israel >http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/world/israel.htm > >++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > >To unsubscribe from JURIST Update (or to subscribe!), go to the JURIST-L >Listserv Information page at: > >http://lawdns.wuacc.edu/mailman/listinfo/jurist-l > >++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > >JURIST: The Legal Education Network is a non-commercial academic service >hosted in the United States by the University of Pittsburgh School of Law >(http://jurist.law.pitt.edu), with affiliates at [...] 11667 204 20_Re: In Ramallah.....9_yigalsela18_ysela@inter.net.il30_Sat, 6 Apr 2002 15:51:05 +0200559_windows-1255 The basic mistake inZe'ev Sternhell's article is that he is mistaken in drawing a parallel between guerrilla warfare through the ages and the recent outbreak of violence in The Territories. The I.R.A. (would the English agree to call them guerrilla or gunmen?) true want the English out of Northern Island in order to unite it with the republic in the South. As a result they carry out terrorist/ freedom fight action mostly in Northern Island in order to speed up the departure of the British. They do not set their sights on the mainland. [...] 11872 266 18_By Thomas Friedman0_15_Elaynbb@aol.com28_Sat, 6 Apr 2002 09:51:51 EST621_ISO-8859-1 I thought I would pass this along:

Suicidal Lies > >By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN > >The outcome of the war now under way between the Israelis and Palestinians is >vital to the security of every American, and indeed, I believe, to all of >civilization. Why? Quite simply because Palestinians are testing out a whole >new form of warfare, using suicide bombers - strapped with dynamite and >dressed as Israelis - to achieve their political aims. And it is working. > >Israelis are terrified. And Palestinians, although this strategy has wrecked >their society, feel a rising sense of empowerment. They feel [...] 12139 63 49_Editorial From The Wall Street Journal, April 6th11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org30_Sat, 6 Apr 2002 10:06:36 -0600640_us-ascii ISRAELI DISPATCH

A Mideast Vietnam? This time, America must not abandon its ally.

BY BRET STEPHENS Saturday, April 6, 2002 12:01 a.m. EST

JERUSALEM--Because the names remain the same, and because the moral is such a tidy one, Ariel Sharon's current battle against Yasser Arafat has been widely compared to Israel's 1982 invasion of Lebanon. "As in Lebanon," writes David Ignatius in the Washington Post, "Sharon appears to have leapt into this military campaign without knowing where he would land." "For Mr. Sharon," adds Nicholas Kristof in the New York Times, "tanks seem to work no better in the West [...] 12203 452 3_Oy!12_Doug Greener25_ddwgreen@netvision.net.il31_Fri, 05 Apr 2002 17:53:44 +0300745_windows-1255 As if things were not bad enough.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=27106

FROM DEBKA INTELLIGENCE FILES Al-Qaida-Hezbollah operatives to Arafat's rescue Intelligence sources predict fresh wave of terror attacks

Posted: April 5, 2002 1:00 a.m. Eastern

Editor's note: DEBKAfile's electronic news publication is a news-cum-analysis live wire, online round the clock seven days a week. A weekly edition,DEBKA-Net-Weekly, is now available through WorldNetDaily.com. Drawing on DEBKAfile's unique sources, analytical talents and forward-looking insights, it is presented as a compact, intelligence-angled weekly package. It is available as a direct e-mail feed or via the Internet. [...] 12656 292 15_HonestReporting12_Doug Greener25_ddwgreen@netvision.net.il31_Fri, 05 Apr 2002 17:53:53 +0300568_windows-1255 HonestReporting Communique 05 April 2002

"BROADCASTING THE BIG LIE"

* * *

Dear HonestReporting Member,

Media outlets often insist on giving equal time to both sides of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict -- even when one side presents documented fact and the other fabricates a lie.

As their policy of terror becomes more and more exposed, Palestinian Authority spokesmen have taken to the airwaves with incredible allegations. Then the big lie is repeated -- unchallenged -- on virtually all networks and newspapers. [...] 12949 555 7_Subject12_Doug Greener25_ddwgreen@netvision.net.il31_Fri, 05 Apr 2002 17:54:06 +0300608_windows-1255 OPEN LETTER:

From

Jock L. Falkson

falkson@netvision.net.il

Friday, April 05, 2002





To President George W. Bush



What Happened to Jewish Honor,

Dignity, Self-Respect?





Dear Mr. President





Allow me to comment on the poignant remarks you made about Israel’s treatment of Palestinians at checkpoints. You asked Israelis to show respect and honor for the dignity of ordinary Palestinians who line up to enter our country to seek work to put bread on the table for their families. [...] 13505 230 31_Habonim Dror Needs Your Support0_14_KBob24@aol.com28_Sat, 6 Apr 2002 13:11:19 EST606_UTF-8 Habonetters:

In this time of crisis for Israel, there are many ways to show our support for Israel. As alumni and supporters of Habonim Dror, I don't want you to forget that one important method is through support of the movement. Unrelated to the current events, the Habonim Dror Foundation has planned a multi-event celebration of the 50th anniversary of the Habonim Workshop in Israel program. These events begin June 8-9 in NY and culminate with a trip to Israel in December. Included in this celebration is a special issue of Chadashot, the HDF newsletter, that will include ads and [...] 13736 71 27_Re: what terror does to you0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com28_Sat, 6 Apr 2002 18:17:20 EST550_US-ASCII I think that in this country, the US, most of the people have no paitence with terror. I can say that about the press, the congress, the President and the former President. Non of them have any use for the settlers either. While nobody regards the settlers as a cause of terror, they regard the settlements as incomprehensible. I fully appreciate your little piece about what terror does to you and how we must do everything we can to stop it. I hope that you begin to realize, that most of the people who are most opposed to terror in [...] 13808 132 52_The AACI honors the American kibbutznik contribution0_14_KBob24@aol.com28_Sat, 6 Apr 2002 23:14:24 EST632_US-ASCII Thought this article from Ha'aretz might be of interest to some of you.

Ken

--------

>From swamps to swimming pools

The AACI honors the American kibbutznik contribution

By Charlotte Halle



"We fade into our kibbutzim a lot of the time," says Chava Feldman, coordinator of the kibbutz-based 50th jubilee celebrations of the AACI (Association of Americans and Canadians in Israel). "People don't hear much about us, or they think of us as millionaires sitting by our swimming pools, but we've worked hard for what we've got." [...] 13941 28 27_Re: what terror does to you12_Doug Greener25_ddwgreen@netvision.net.il31_Sat, 06 Apr 2002 22:29:55 +0300551_windows-1255 Pearl's description is 100% accurate. I can add to it the anxiety when riding the buses - you look at everyone who gets on, trying to decide if that girth is really his or might be concealing something else, more lethal, whether the bus driver noticed, where he sits down, breathing more easily when he gets off. And the anxiety when your son or husband is late getting home - turn on the radio, see if anything happened. And the anxiety about something as petty as buying a birthday gift - do you go downtown to the stores you like [...] 13970 66 16_humanitarian aid0_18_Brianscoop@aol.com28_Sun, 7 Apr 2002 05:19:56 EDT506_US-ASCII Chaverim Shalom,

I am posting the following letter for Amos Davidowitz, a colleague and member of Kibbutz Gezer, who for many years is involved in organizing peace and humanitarian efforts in Israel. He is a major in the reserves and committed to this cause.

Regards, brian ----------------

I am trying to collect $$$ for people in Gaza and Bethlehem that desperately need some basic supplies a friend in Gaza and a friend in Bethlehem will buy the stuff and deliver it. [...] 14037 51 19_How do you see it??12_Stan Goldman17_stan@zahav.net.il30_Mon, 7 Apr 2003 15:08:44 +0200286_windows-1255 There was a meeting in Rabin Sq last week. There was a very small turnout of people against the military acts of Israel. Habonet is often filled with protests against Sharon's actions. I hate to say it, but i guess we who write to Habonet do not reflect our fellow Israel's 14089 146 23_Re: How do you see it??9_R. Shultz18_lzac@securenet.net30_Sun, 7 Apr 2002 20:54:55 -0400590_windows-1255 Hi Stan.

Is Habonet supposed to be the Microcosm of the Israeli Macrocosm? It appears to me that Habonet (I am new here) is a reflection of those who choose to write in. And since Habonim was the youth movement of the Labour Zionists, perhaps it is apt that many will reflect Labour Zionist opinions. Yesterday in Kikar Rabin there was a demonstration of over 10,000 Israelis against the occupation and for negotiations - as opposed to war. Present were some leaders of the Labour party. Present were many kibbutz members. And its a damn shame that Labour is still [...] 14236 34 23_Re: How do you see it??0_18_DLerner569@aol.com28_Sun, 7 Apr 2002 21:53:49 EDT587_US-ASCII Dear Reuven, On what terms would you make peace? With whom would you make peace? What would prevent you from making peace? What makes peace possible now, that is different from before?

Not well disguised in my questions is the concern that while peace is what we all long for, it can not be achieved either alone or as an abstraction. It must be by mutual consent of the parties, and it must have specific terms, from unconditional surrender of one side, to a return to the pre-conflict status by both sides, or some negotiated arrangement acceptable to both sides, [...] 14271 136 23_Re: Fwd: Barrels of Oil14_Tana Hemingway16_tanah@zianet.com31_Sun, 07 Apr 2002 17:51:29 -0600180_us-ascii

--- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.344 / Virus Database: 191 - Release Date: 4/2/02 14408 155 23_Re: How do you see it??9_R. Shultz18_lzac@securenet.net30_Mon, 8 Apr 2002 00:22:48 -0400553_iso-8859-1 Dennis Lerner wrote:



> On what terms would you make peace? > With whom would you make peace? > What would prevent you from making peace? > What makes peace possible now, that is different from before? > > Not well disguised in my questions is the concern that while peace is what we > all long for, it can not be achieved either alone or as an abstraction. It > must be by mutual consent of the parties, and it must have specific terms, > from unconditional surrender of one side, to a return to the pre-conflict > status [...] 14564 102 22_Re: How do you see it?9_yigalsela18_ysela@inter.net.il30_Mon, 8 Apr 2002 07:42:01 +0200553_windows-1255 Why do those on habonet who continually criticise Israel and its democratically elected leader think that we are dismantling the peace process. I again emphasise I did not and would never vote for Arik Sharon, but he has , as of yet, done nothing to dismantle the peace process.

He did not send suicide bombers into city centres killing men women and children. He did not refuse a peace proposal that would have given him an independent recognised state on nearly all of Occupied West Bank and Gaza and parts of East Jerusalem. [...] 14667 985 7_Subject12_Doug Greener25_ddwgreen@netvision.net.il31_Mon, 08 Apr 2002 08:50:17 +0300597_windows-1255 >IDF: PALESTINIANS WELL ARMED FOR FIGHTING > >The commander of the IDF forces in the West Bank town of Jenin, >Brigadier General Eyal Shlein, said Saturday morning that the fighting >in the West Bank city was fiercer that previous times the IDF had >entered the city, and that the Palestinians there had very high >motivation. He added that the city was in the army's hands, and that >the refugee camp soon would be. > >In an interview to Israel Radio, Shlein said, "They [the Palestinians] >did their homework. We have been there twice already, and they saw >what was happening [...] 15653 173 22_Re: How do you see it?9_R. Shultz18_lzac@securenet.net30_Mon, 8 Apr 2002 07:21:58 -0400579_windows-1255 Dear Yigal,

You say you would not have voted for Sharon, but obviously you are voting for him, for rather than ask serious questions about where his leadership is bring the nation, what it is doing to the relations with Israel's neighbours you say that one has no right to criticize. You may feel that way, but you have no right to take away another's right to criticize. You say that when push comes to shove neither Blair, nor Chirac nor Bush will defend Israel. That is completely true. But Israel would never engage in these present operations if it [...] 15827 79 6_Re: eu11_Don Goelman25_don.goelman@villanova.edu31_Mon, 08 Apr 2002 10:43:15 -0400471_us-ascii We seem to have several threads going on. To follow one of them ...

"R. Shultz" wrote:

... whatever progress was made, by the negotiators,

> was > not followed up. In February 1991 Sharon was elected, and with his election > the > negotiations were abandoned.

That's it? So things were OK till the election? Nothing about how Arafat's rejection of the US/Israeli offers and decision to unleash violence LED to Sharon's election? [...] 15907 94 7_Kibbutz16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Mon, 08 Apr 2002 10:57:03 -0400483_us-ascii >From this past weekend's HaAretz.

>From swamps to swimming pools: The AACI honors the American kibbutznik contribution

"We fade into our kibbutzim a lot of the time," says Chava Feldman, coordinator of the kibbutz-based 50th jubilee celebrations of the AACI (Association of Americans and Canadians in Israel). "People don't hear much about us, or they think of us as millionaires sitting by our swimming pools, but we've worked hard for what we've got." [...] 16002 51 6_Re: eu9_R. Shultz18_lzac@securenet.net30_Mon, 8 Apr 2002 12:09:15 -0400579_iso-8859-1

> We seem to have several threads going on. To follow one of them ... > > "R. Shultz" wrote: D. Goelman wrote:

> D. Goelman's assertion is actually that a Palestinian (and, sadly, wider) > culture of hate exists and has been nurtured by the Palestinian leadership. The > Holocaust denial is evidence of this, as is the recent Saudi article on Jewish > use of Gentile blood for Purim, as was Sufa Arafat's charge about poison gas > (this during the "good" days of Oslo). No, Holocaust denial didn't cause the > second intifada. That was a strategic [...] 16054 68 6_Re: eu11_Don Goelman25_don.goelman@villanova.edu31_Mon, 08 Apr 2002 13:14:58 -0400635_us-ascii > Dear Don: > > The culture of hate is not exclusive to the Palestinians. It exists among > Israelis as well. In growing religious circles Palestinians are regarded as > Amalek. And the history of acrimonious opposition to the peace accords, > attests to this hatred. >

There's a world of difference between the institutionalized hate among Palestinians and the admittedly disgusting prejudice to be found among some Israelis. Growing in religious circles? - very possibly. But still thankfully an anomaly. The orders of magnitude and the active involvement of the leaderships of the two sides are not comparable. [...] 16123 36 20_Re: humanitarian aid9_CarmiDave20_carmdave@urim.org.il30_Mon, 8 Apr 2002 22:32:02 +0200519_iso-8859-1 Amos

I think it is commendable to collect aid for Gaza and the West Bank Palestinians. However, I must ponder a few questions. First, how do you know, Amos, that the money you collect actually goes to buy food, clothes, medication, etc. Second, why doesn't the PA provide these services? After all, they must have lots of money left over after providing these basic services to buy tons of weapons and explosives and to provide payments for the families of suicide bombers, both past and future. [...] 16160 60 46_RE: Fwd: rabble.ca: Is There a Way Out of this0_23_rebshloime@netscape.net31_Mon, 08 Apr 2002 16:07:35 -0400584_iso-8859-1

Dear Rabbi Lerner,

Thanks for your remarks in your sermon at the Friday night service. Most likely, I was the only one there opposed to the war, and so it might have been preaching to the converted. After your sermon, though, I remained opposed to the war.

I don't think that this war will solve the horrendous problem of the suicide bombers. I think there\'s a good chance that the war will create new suicide bombers. From my point of view, a negotiated solution is the way to go. If that were to happen, any potential suicide bombers would be [...] 16221 76 12_(no subject)16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Mon, 08 Apr 2002 16:38:04 -0400313_us-ascii Q: How many list subscribers does it take to change a light bulb? A: 1,001

1 to change the light bulb and to post to the mail list that the light bulb has been changed.

14 to share similar experiences of changing light bulbs and how the light bulb could have been changed differently. [...] 16298 79 46_Re: Fwd: rabble.ca: Is There a Way Out of this9_R. Shultz18_lzac@securenet.net30_Mon, 8 Apr 2002 16:49:59 -0400610_iso-8859-1 excellent letter!

----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, April 08, 2002 4:07 PM Subject: RE: Fwd: rabble.ca: Is There a Way Out of this



> > Dear Rabbi Lerner, > > Thanks for your remarks in your sermon at the Friday night service. Most likely, I was the only one there opposed to the war, and so it might have been preaching to the converted. After your sermon, though, I remained opposed to the war. > > I don't think that this war will solve the horrendous problem of the > suicide bombers. I think there\'s [...] 16378 79 22_Re: How do you see it?0_23_stuhlman@mindspring.com31_Mon, 08 Apr 2002 19:46:55 -0400658_- I may not agree with everything going on, but I think Israel would have done something like this sooner, if it wasn't for the US, France, and all the other oil-dependent countries urging restraint.

On Mon, 8 Apr 2002 07:21:58 -0400 "R. Shultz" wrote:















Dear Yigal,

You say you would not have voted for Sharon, but obviously you are voting for him, for rather than ask serious questions about where his leadership is bring the nation, what it is doing to the relations with Israel's neighbours you say that one has no right to criticize. You may feel that [...] 16458 192 53_Re: humanitarian aid/ And: In today's Washington Post0_23_rebshloime@netscape.net31_Mon, 08 Apr 2002 20:41:35 -0400367_iso-8859-1 There is a humanitarian crisis underway on the West Bank, and the practically destroyed PA is in no position to deal with it. (The article below is relevant to this.) I'm sure that a chaver of Kibbutz Gezer, Amos Davidovitz, is not about to squander any contributions people make toward humanitarian relief, which I assume includes food and clothing. [...] 16651 142 65_Please Sign the Simon Wiesenthal Petition to President Bush Today12_Doug Greener25_ddwgreen@netvision.net.il31_Mon, 08 Apr 2002 22:02:02 +0300580_windows-1255 Please sign the Simon Wiesenthal Petition to President Bush - today!

Here is the text :

“President George W. Bush of the United States:

“Thank you for your support of Israel.

“I urge you not to retreat from your principled position of Israel’s right of self-defense to wage battle against the scourge of terrorism. These new methods employed by the suicide bombers in the Middle East are a testing ground for what future terrorists might employ in the streets of the United States, Canada, Europe, or anywhere else in the free world. [...] 16794 187 6_Re: eu9_R. Shultz18_lzac@securenet.net30_Tue, 9 Apr 2002 01:14:58 -0400604_iso-8859-1 Dear Sharon,

You disagree with the fact that I am not completely persuaded that the intifada was started by the Palestinian leadership.

> start.> You say:

> What would it take to convince you? Sharon asked for permission from the PA > authority beforehand (and it was granted). That gave them time to prepare. > There have been Palestinians quoted, speaking English, on television, > bragging about how they had been making ready for days, just waiting for > Sharon to give them the excuse. [...] 16982 54 2_eu9_R. Shultz18_lzac@securenet.net30_Tue, 9 Apr 2002 01:38:57 -0400368_iso-8859-1 wrong line got in.

Sharon fine wrote:

Dear Sharon,

I put the wrong line in the answer that I sent before, so I am sending this as a correction.

>This was planned in advance. But you know, > even if Sharon's visit *had* kicked off a "spontaneous" burst of violence, > where was the PA in condemning or quelling the violence? [...] 17037 54 60_Ha'aretz: "Peres calls IDF operation in Jenin a 'massacre' "11_Batel Libes25_batel_libes@earthlink.net30_Mon, 8 Apr 2002 23:59:31 -0700508_iso-8859-1 Last update - 09:40 09/04/2002

Peres calls IDF operation in Jenin a 'massacre'

By Aluf Benn and Amos Harel, Ha'aretz Correspondents



Foreign Minister Shimon Peres Peres is very worried about the expected international reaction as soon as the world learns the details of the tough battle in the Jenin refugee camps, where more than 100 Palestinians have already been killed in fighting with IDF forces. In private, Peres is referring to the battle as a "massacre." [...] 17092 91 20_Re: humanitarian aid0_18_Brianscoop@aol.com28_Tue, 9 Apr 2002 07:51:51 EDT590_US-ASCII In a message dated 4/8/02 3:32:50 PM Eastern Daylight Time, carmdave@urim.org.il writes:



> Amos > > I think it is commendable to collect aid for Gaza and the West Bank > Palestinians. However, I must ponder a few questions. First, how do you > know, Amos, that the money you collect actually goes to buy food, clothes, > medication, etc. Second, why doesn't the PA provide these services? After > all, they must have lots of money left over after providing these basic > services to buy tons of weapons and explosives and to provide payments for > the families [...] 17184 43 6_Re: eu11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Tue, 09 Apr 2002 11:54:38 -0400580_us-ascii



"R. Shultz" wrote:

> ... > > > There are many instances where Arafat himself incited violence, before *and* > > after the intifada started. It was only after the intifada started that > > Israel elected Sharon. > > It is alleged that there are many instance in which Arafat incited violence. > But he also begged Barak to take measures to help him curb the violence. For > instance after the killings on the temple mount he asked for an inquiry into > what happened. Barak rejected the appeal for an inquiry. Arafat pleaded > again with Barak [...] 17228 56 6_Re: eu9_R. Shultz18_lzac@securenet.net30_Tue, 9 Apr 2002 12:31:17 -0400392_iso-8859-1 Noam Wrote:

> Bzzt. Wrong, but thanks for playing. > > Sad to hear this particular "big lie" raised here on Habonet. > > I don't know about Barak, but I know the IDF investigated this incident and found that the boy was shot by Palestinians.

> > An EU investigation completed recently confirmed that it is very unlikely he was killed by Israeli fire. > > Noam > [...] 17285 126 5_Re:eu9_R. Shultz18_lzac@securenet.net30_Tue, 9 Apr 2002 12:41:09 -0400347_iso-8859-1 > > Sad to hear this particular "big lie" raised here on Habonet. > > I don't know about Barak, but I know the IDF investigated this incident and found that the boy was shot by Palestinians. > > An EU investigation completed recently confirmed that it is very unlikely he was killed by Israeli fire. > Who killed Mohammed al-Dura? [...] 17412 278 35_Re: Call for articles for Chadashot14_Jessica Silver26_foundation@habonimdror.org30_Tue, 9 Apr 2002 13:05:38 -0400419_iso-8859-1 Dear Tsippi,

I am in charge of organizing the events for the 50th Workshop anniversary, so feel free to direct any questions to me. In regards to housing for the weekend, the Quality Hotel at Broadway and W. 94th is providing a discounted rate for our group: $89/single and $99/double. To obtain these rates, call the hotel before May 24th and say you are with the Habonim Dror Foundation group. [...] 17691 67 20_Re: humanitarian aid9_CarmiDave20_carmdave@urim.org.il30_Tue, 9 Apr 2002 21:27:24 +0200451_iso-8859-1 Brian,

Sorry, but I must have deleted the email with Amos' address.... Still, my response was directed to the Habonet community as well as to Amos. Sort of an open letter thing. Todays' news of 13 Israeli soldiers killed in Jenin among the bomb factories is a prime example of the misguided sympathy (in my opinion) of people like Amos. The poor Palestinians with their bomb factories in their homes don't deserve my donations. [...] 17759 200 30_a different Jewish perspective13_Yuval Warshai16_warshais@tir.com30_Tue, 9 Apr 2002 15:34:52 -0400570_iso-8859-1 Here is a pretty biased [pro-Palestinian] report of the ongoing war by a Jewish reporter. I had never read anything by the author before. She introduces herself, however, and she writes pretty well too. I was able to learn from it a lot about the feelings and perceptions on the other side. Some parts of it also impressed me deeply by the poignancy and the authenticity of a passionate and just Jewish voice that is so different from the positions we see all day and night on TV, as expressed by Sharon and all the other spokespeople for his government [...] 17960 125 41_Re: rabble.ca: Is There a Way Out of this0_18_DLerner569@aol.com28_Tue, 9 Apr 2002 17:02:29 EDT505_UTF-8 Dear Sol,

I presume Rabbi Lerner is the person you asked about - a family member in Canada and not a misplaced reference (love it as I do) to my erudition.

It seems that in every article I read there is much I can agreed with and some evident distortions, that mislead the reader, and let those who are of the other view to say, "they are misguided, naive, or lying. Our postings are full of one person providing line by line analysis of these defects in the postings of another. [...] 18086 27 6_Re: eu0_18_DLerner569@aol.com28_Tue, 9 Apr 2002 17:16:11 EDT648_US-ASCII Dear Reuven, This repetition about PA calls for international investigation are plays to undermine Israeli sovereignty - there were no international investigations of actions in Mississippi during the civil rights movement. Second, in case you haven't noticed, Israel rarely if ever gets a fair shake (by which I do not mean whitewash) for the lofty international community. Who would you suggest conduct the investigation? I don't say Israel is right or non-abusive, or that everyone in leadership has a pure heart, and unprejudiced idea of the terms for peace, or its prerequisites, but international investigation is as we used to [...] 18114 25 6_Re: eu12_David Fleiss20_dfleiss@pipeline.com31_Tue, 09 Apr 2002 17:33:28 -0400613_- Dennis wrote (in part):

>>> This repetition about PA calls for international investigation are plays to undermine Israeli sovereignty - there were no international investigations of actions in Mississippi during the civil rights movement. <<<

Dennis, you're both right and wrong about this.

While there were no international investigations during the civil rights struggle in the United States, there were plenty of calls by Black leaders for just such an international investigation, most famously from Paul Robeson during the 40's and Malcolm X during the 60's. [...] 18140 26 6_Re: eu12_David Fleiss20_dfleiss@pipeline.com31_Tue, 09 Apr 2002 19:02:33 -0400329_us-ascii As soon as I sent my previous message, I realized that I should have made some disclaimers, so here goes:

o It was not my intention to suggest the existence of any equivalency (moral or otherwise) between the struggles of Palestinians and Black Americans, nor to suggest the absence of any such equivalency. [...] 18167 282 12_Barak speaks16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Wed, 10 Apr 2002 09:55:58 -0400626_us-ascii The following article by Ehud Barak was sent to me by a friend in Israel.



Separation Within Four Years Yedioth Ahronoth (p. B13) by Ehud Barak -- [Apr. 5] We are at a time of

difficult trial. For 18 months, Israel has been embroiled in a bloody battle against the Palestinian Authority, which employs terror to achieve its long-term political and diplomatic goals. This fateful battle will determine the security of Israel and its future. It will also determine the nature of the long-term relations between us and our neighbors. This is a blood-soaked battle against a bitter enemy, which [...] 18450 35 56_Ha'aretz Media Columnist Reviews Last Year's Advertising9_R. Shultz18_lzac@securenet.net31_Wed, 10 Apr 2002 09:56:24 -0400608_iso-8859-1 The left was right Aviv Lavie, Ha'aretz Magazine, April 12, 2002

In the last election campaign, Ehud Barak's admen came up with a horrific TV spot about what would happen if Ariel Sharon was elected prime minister. These are the main stages of the apocalyptic scenario they depicted: Feb 8 - Rehavam Ze'evi and Avigdor Lieberman join the government Feb 13 - Unprecedented violence breaks out in the territories; hundreds are killed Feb 21 - Sharon orders the invasion of Nablus, Gaza, and Jericho Feb 22 - Egypt and Jordan annul the peace treaties March 1 - Israel's military reserves [...] 18486 68 14_life in Israel16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Wed, 10 Apr 2002 10:04:18 -0400573_us-ascii The following is excerpted from occasional bulletins from Israel written by Daniel Gordis, formerly of NY, now of Jerusalem.





> No one I know here wants this war; but no one I know thinks we can do > without it. All Israelis understand why we're fighting this. It's been > lost on no one -- not one single person in this country of just about > six million citizens (how's THAT for an ironic number this week) -- that > since we entered the territories, nothing's blown up inside our borders. > Nothing. For the first time in many, many [...] 18555 40 8_intifada16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Wed, 10 Apr 2002 10:52:56 -0400629_us-ascii Reuven Shultz has his facts all mixed up. Or is he not allowing the facts of the matter to obscure his "truth"?

1. This set of troubles was ordered by Arafat immediately upon his exit from Camp David. This fact was proclaimed by no lesser a Palestinian luminary than Imad al Falouji, the PA's communications chief. 2. Jabril Rajoub gave explicit permission, unqualified, for Sharon's har habayit walkabout. 3. The murders began weeks before Sharon's temple mount exercise. 4. The Palestinian complaint that Barak didn't make an adequate offer is nonsense. Arafat merely showed himself to be a lousy advocate [...] 18596 29 12_Re: intifada12_David Fleiss20_dfleiss@pipeline.com31_Wed, 10 Apr 2002 11:36:56 -0400430_- Based on most news sources I've read, I think Elihu is right about most of the facts in his message.

One minor point:

>>> The murders began weeks before Sharon's temple mount exercise. <<<

As I recall, Sharon's visit prompted an immediate reaction of stone-throwing (on the Mount) and street demonstrations, by both Palestinians and Israeli Arabs, which was met by deadly force on the part of the IDF. [...] 18626 300 34_Re: a different Jewish perspective9_R. Shultz18_lzac@securenet.net31_Wed, 10 Apr 2002 12:51:27 -0400577_iso-8859-1 Dear Yuval, We are living in a time of war, and with war comes propaganda and lies, and more damn lies. We have to develop our crap detectors, if we are to understand what is all around us. There is an Israeli view, and there is a Palestinian view. Through the wonderful world of print and the internet, we can find interview information and opinions which allow us to transcend our restricted circumstances and sometimes see and combine both views. Cantarow's article does have the virtue of bringing to the fore many views. But I did dislike her inability to [...] 18927 28 34_Re: a different Jewish perspective13_Yuval Warshai16_warshais@tir.com31_Wed, 10 Apr 2002 13:05:04 -0400599_iso-8859-1 Dear Reuven,

And look what the settler religious fanatic expansionist colonial movement and their protector Sharon has brought upon Israel and the Jewish People. They have killed Rabin, they have killed any hope for peace, and now it is utter catastrophe upon everybody. How are we going to end this war of Sharon and of the settlements now? It will only escalate until they begin transferring large chunks of the Palestinian population of the West Bank out somewhere, or killing masses of them [which is what they always dreamt of anyhow], and that will not be the end of it [...] 18956 142 12_Re: intifada9_R. Shultz18_lzac@securenet.net31_Wed, 10 Apr 2002 13:28:45 -0400500_iso-8859-1

----- Original Message ----- From: "Elihu D. Davison" To: "Habonet" Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 10:52 AM Subject: intifada

Elihu Davison wrote:

> Reuven Shultz has his facts all mixed up. Or is he not allowing the > facts of the matter to obscure his "truth"?

Dear Elihu,

My facts might be all mixed up, but how are you so sure yours are accurate? I will comment on the points you have enumerated. [...] 19099 214 24_[Fwd: IMPORTANT MESSAGE]11_Roslyn Lang20_langr@georgetown.edu31_Wed, 10 Apr 2002 14:51:13 -0400617_us-ascii I received the following from AZM today and am passing it along for anyone in the Washington, DC, area who might be interested. Roz Lang.

-------- Original Message -------- Subject: IMPORTANT MESSAGE Date: 10 Apr 2002 16:30:24 -0000 From: "American Zionist Movement" Reply-To: election@azm.org To: langr@georgetown.edu



Dear Zionist Voter,

We want to thank you for your participation in the Zionist elections to the 34th World Zionist Congress. Results will be tabulated early next week and will be available at www.azm.org on Tuesday afternoon, April 16. [...] 19314 68 21_Washington, DC, Rally11_Roslyn Lang20_langr@georgetown.edu31_Wed, 10 Apr 2002 15:00:54 -0400609_us-ascii I received the following from AZM today and am passing it along for anyone in the Washington, DC, area who might be interested. Roz Lang.

-------- Original Message -------- Subject: IMPORTANT MESSAGE Date: 10 Apr 2002 16:30:24 -0000 From: "American Zionist Movement" Reply-To: election@azm.org To: langr@georgetown.edu

Dear Zionist Voter,

We want to thank you for your participation in the Zionist elections to the 34th World Zionist Congress. Results will be tabulated early next week and will be available at www.azm.org on Tuesday afternoon, April 16. [...] 19383 275 15_Re: eu nonsense7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Wed, 10 Apr 2002 00:41:04 +0300579_iso-8859-1 and I weigh 10 kilo. Your "facts" are off and one can only wonder what your agenda is. How nice of you "not to be convinced." The Intifada was planned for months. Food was stocked up. Clinics were broken into all over Yesha and medicine and drug stocks were wiped out from these dispensaries before the Intifada started. Sharon DID get permission from Rajub of the PA to come to the Mount. He certainly did NOT have 1500 policemen guarding him on the mount. Palestinians later admitted that Sharon was the excuse they were waiting for. The Ateret Cohenim Yeshiva [...] 19659 341 65_PM Sharon's speech; description of terrorist attack in Elon Moreh7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Wed, 10 Apr 2002 01:25:01 +0300614_iso-8859-1 SHARON: ANTI-TERROR EFFORTS WILL CONTINUE UNTIL COMPLETION > Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, speaking at a special Knesset session today, > said that he has instructed the IDF to complete its "Defensive Shield" > mission before pulling out of areas handed over to the PLO in the framework > of the now-defunct Oslo Accords. The United States continues to insist > that Israel withdraw without delay, and UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan > even said today that the "whole world" demands the same. > > The Israeli Prime Minister stated that after the mission is completed, IDF > troops would withdraw to [...] 20001 150 23_Today we buried Gedalya7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Thu, 11 Apr 2002 01:04:54 +0300424_windows-1255 Today we buried Gedalya. Gedalya Hillel. Penina and Simcha chose that name, based on t'hilim: "Gadol HaShem u'm'hulal m'od:" "God is great and highly praised." Penina has such strength, which radiates from her religious belief. She said today: "God does not take anyone until they have completed their task in this world." Can we say that about such a talented and beautiful 21 year old soul like Gedalya? [...] 20152 151 23_Today we buried Gedalya7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Thu, 11 Apr 2002 01:28:48 +0300424_windows-1255 Today we buried Gedalya. Gedalya Hillel. Penina and Simcha chose that name, based on t'hilim: "Gadol HaShem u'm'hulal m'od:" "God is great and highly praised." Penina has such strength, which radiates from her religious belief. She said today: "God does not take anyone until they have completed their task in this world." Can we say that about such a talented and beautiful 21 year old soul like Gedalya? [...] 20304 29 38_Alliance for Just Peace. Who are they?11_Batel Libes25_batel_libes@earthlink.net31_Wed, 10 Apr 2002 15:20:12 -0700581_iso-8859-1 Hi, Does anyone know who the Alliance for Just Peace is? The organization is buying prime time air space on one of San Francisco's best rock radio station and has a very "touchy-feely" type of message calling for peace, but it's rather one-sided against Israel. I already heard it at least 3 times today, and believe it is aired at least once an hour. Apparently, the organization is going after a specific group of people who listen to rock radio. It is, however, interesting that the radio station airs a disclaimer each time they air the message, saying it does [...] 20334 208 27_Fw: Today we buried Gedalya7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Thu, 11 Apr 2002 01:38:30 +0300996_windows-1255

----- Original Message ----- From: Skolnik To: Cc: ; ; Jay Levin ; nechama horwitt ; Rebeca Horwitt ; ; ronald ; Victor Newman M.D. ; Andie Michaeli ; Moshe Bendavid ; ; ; ; Mathew Pearlson ; Eiferman Realty Inc. ; ; pearl skolnik ; ; ; Roberta D. Kahana ; shlachter ; ; ; ; ; dan Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2002 1:04 AM Subject: Today we buried Gedalya [...] 20543 62 42_Re: Alliance for Just Peace. Who are they?19_Orit Lowy Chicherio16_oritil@yahoo.com37_Wed, 10 Apr 2002 16:29:07 -0700 (PDT)550_us-ascii I believe I heard it today in the DC area. It was a bit disturbing. Orit

--- Batel Libes wrote: > Hi, > Does anyone know who the Alliance for Just > Peace is? The organization is > buying prime time air space on one of San > Francisco's best rock radio > station and has a very "touchy-feely" type of > message calling for peace, but > it's rather one-sided against Israel. I already > heard it at least 3 times > today, and believe it is aired at least once an > hour. Apparently, the > organization [...] 20606 62 31_JP article on Gedalya's funeral7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Thu, 11 Apr 2002 08:15:17 +0300597_windows-1255 Who Understands the Way of God?

"I apologize that I'm not crying, but so many people I know have died," said Yiftah in a heavy voice as he stood over the grave of his friend, St.-Sgt. Gedalyahu Malik (Mellick), 21, of Jerusalem. His face was dry, but the sobs of many others filled the military cemetery on Mount Herzl in the late afternoon yesterday, as friends and family quietly covered Mellick's grave with dirt and flowers. Mellick was killed Tuesday night in Jenin. Twelve other soldiers were injured in that incident. "This morning they woke me with the bad news," [...] 20669 75 35_Fw: JP article on Gedalya's funeral7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Thu, 11 Apr 2002 11:03:38 +0300577_windows-1255 Subject: JP article on Gedalya's funeral



> Who Understands the Way of God? > > "I apologize that I'm not crying, but so many people I know have died," said > Yiftah in a heavy voice as he stood over the grave of his friend, St.-Sgt. > Gedalyahu Malik (Mellick), 21, of Jerusalem. > His face was dry, but the sobs of many others filled the military cemetery > on Mount Herzl in the late afternoon yesterday, as friends and family > quietly covered Mellick's grave with dirt and flowers. Mellick was killed > Tuesday night in Jenin. Twelve other [...] 20745 36 42_Re: Alliance for Just Peace. Who are they?10_Ori Siegel17_oris@interlog.com31_Thu, 11 Apr 2002 09:38:46 -0400572_us-ascii At 04:29 PM 2002-04-10 -0700, Orit Lowy Chicherio wrote: >I believe I heard it today in the DC area. It was >a bit disturbing. >Orit

It sounds like a "Confederation of Abraham" project. This is a "think tank" proposal which has all the answers (yeah, right) to all the problems in the Middle East. It plays to the same tune as so many other "expert" solutions which, of course, put the main thrust on "if only Israel would withdraw from the Occupied Territories" blah, blah, blah. Odd how all the Arab world's problems will go away if that happens... [...] 20782 53 34_Re: a different Jewish perspective9_R. Shultz18_lzac@securenet.net31_Thu, 11 Apr 2002 11:17:19 -0400588_iso-8859-1 Yuval Warshai wrote:

> And look what the settler religious fanatic expansionist colonial movement > and their protector Sharon has brought upon Israel and the Jewish People. > They have killed Rabin, they have killed any hope for peace, and now it is > utter catastrophe upon everybody. How are we going to end this war of Sharon > and of the settlements now? It will only escalate until they begin > transferring large chunks of the Palestinian population of the West Bank out > somewhere, or killing masses of them [which is what they always dreamt of > anyhow], [...] 20836 92 13_intepretation16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Thu, 11 Apr 2002 11:48:34 -0400604_us-ascii Reuven Schultz writes in Habonet 2204 that

> As you know history is not an objective exercise. People select the facts > that they want to believe in. > Facts are objective. Their interpretation is not necessarily. Two people may see the same event and not see the same phenomenon. As Tom Kuhn observed, this is the nature of paradigm shift. However, you take the notion of interpretation into the area of moral relativism. The turn to interpretation int he broadest cultural sense signifies the change from the model of the natural sciences, in which there are absolute answers, to [...] 20929 59 23_my post-trip debriefing0_18_Brianscoop@aol.com29_Thu, 11 Apr 2002 12:22:21 EDT511_US-ASCII Hi All,

I am back from the front, having failed miserably, as you can see, in my avowed mission of convincing both sides to lay down their arms. No one would listen to me. On the other hand, I had an amazing time with my family, and loved being back on the ranch again. Gezer has changed a lot, but at the same time, so much is the same, like a place out of time. Someone had kindly put up a "Welcome Home, Brian" sign on our door before my arrival -- that was a nice surprise and eased my [...] 20989 205 15_Another funeral9_yigalsela18_ysela@inter.net.il31_Thu, 11 Apr 2002 19:22:50 +0200568_windows-1255 On Tuesday afternoon I phoned my daughter (Liron, who serves in the regular army) for the second time that day. (Thank God she has a cellular phone and so I can get hold of her daily). She serves with the Druze Unit on the Lebanese border as the Officer in charge of manpower distribution. These last few days the Hizballa have been shelling Har Dov, the Hermon, and even inside of Israel proper. More than 1,000 shells and missiles have landed inside Israel these past few days. So much for the Hizballa giving up their fight with Israel after they [...] 21195 31 34_Re: a different Jewish perspective0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Thu, 11 Apr 2002 13:38:44 EDT544_US-ASCII I'm sorry but this is nonsense.

Israel's strategy is clear and obvious. Israel will not give up to pressure. Israel can make the cost of terror too great for the Palestinians to bear, and so drive them to truly negotiate a peace. The battle against the PA is because that is what the PA has as its focus and concern - rather than the Palestinian people. Israel is making clear that it is not a pawn of US policy and warning Arafat that there is no genuine move toward peace, Israel can ratchet up the pain by a great deal. [...] 21227 23 9_Netanyahu0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Thu, 11 Apr 2002 13:45:51 EDT648_US-ASCII Okay, so how good was Netanyahu's speech to congress?

Aside for the flaw of equating religious fundamentalists with Palestinian nationalists, I thought it was an awesomely good speech. Witness the lack of reaction. Or maybe we Jews really are in control of the country and just don't know it.

Dennis

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 21251 188 7_Subject12_Doug Greener25_ddwgreen@netvision.net.il31_Thu, 11 Apr 2002 11:13:19 +0300468_windows-1255 The benefits of "good" education.



X-From_: imra-owner+M254@imra.org.il Thu Apr 11 02:08:09 2002 Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 19:07:56 -0400 From: imra@netvision.net.il To: imra@imra.org.il Subject: Exploitation of Women & Children By the Tanzim to Carry Out Suicide Attacks Against Israel- - central Tanzim operative planned to turn his 14 year old niece into a suicide bomber. Sender: imra-owner@imra.org.il Reply-To: imra@netvision.net.il [...] 21440 30 34_Re: a different Jewish perspective13_Yuval Warshai16_warshais@tir.com31_Thu, 11 Apr 2002 14:07:11 -0400564_iso-8859-1 Boy, look. There is a better advocate of the wisdom of Sharon's policies on this list than even Bibi himself. Dennis, maybe you could go offer your services to do some spin for the Israeli government on American media? If they really have to ratchet up their policy of retaliation and they need to start moving some people around, you know, just some light ethnic cleansing and some hundreds of executions of filthy terrorist scum here and there, they are really going to need all the yiddishe kopf they can get a hold of, to spin it away from us. [...] 21471 39 13_RE: Netanyahu11_Batel Libes25_batel_libes@earthlink.net31_Thu, 11 Apr 2002 11:17:02 -0700269_us-ascii Most of the Israelis, I know, no matter which side of center they are on, have told me that if I think Sharon is bad, I have no idea of what bad is and I will find out the minute Nentanyahu comes into power (Elohim Ya'azor always follows this statement). [...] 21511 47 33_The Socialist Scholars Conference11_Batel Libes25_batel_libes@earthlink.net31_Thu, 11 Apr 2002 11:20:08 -0700584_iso-8859-1 For those in the NYC-Area, this weekend marks the 20th Annual Socialist Scholar's Conference:

THE SOCIALIST SCHOLARS CONFERENCE April 12-14, Cooper Union, New York City

Now in its 20th year, this Conf. has become the longest-standing annual gathering of the US left. Two days of more than sixty panels will feature leading activists and thinkers debating a wide-range of charged political and cultural issues including the war in the Middle East, the September 11 attacks, civil liberties and democracy, the Enron scandal and the globalization movement. [...] 21559 307 34_An encouraging word from the Brits13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il31_Thu, 11 Apr 2002 22:15:32 +0200395_windows-1255 The following is the leader of this week's Spectator. In times like these, it's important to know who your friends are. Personally, I'm glad that some of the opinion makers in Europe have kept a proper perspective, unlike some of the people on the Habonet. For those of you who aren't familiar with this generally excellent publication, it can be found at: www.spectator.co.uk [...] 21867 16 34_Re: a different Jewish perspective0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Thu, 11 Apr 2002 15:50:41 EDT354_US-ASCII Forgive him Father.

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 21884 20 21_Camp David Green line0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Thu, 11 Apr 2002 19:45:40 EDT578_US-ASCII There has been a lot of talk about how much of the territories were offered at Camp David. Is there a map that shows approximately where the line was to be drawn? How many settlements would have been abandoned? incorporated into Israel? Dennis

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 21905 27 25_Re: Camp David Green line12_David Fleiss20_dfleiss@pipeline.com31_Thu, 11 Apr 2002 20:10:26 -0400422_us-ascii There's a very interesting map of the "generous" offer at:

http://www.gush-shalom.org/archives/offers.doc

David

DLerner569@aol.com wrote: >There has been a lot of talk about how much of the territories were offered >at Camp David. Is there a map that shows approximately where the line was to >be drawn? How many settlements would have been abandoned? incorporated into >Israel? >Dennis [...] 21933 251 34_Children Scream for Water in Jenin0_23_rebshloime@netscape.net31_Thu, 11 Apr 2002 20:40:46 -0400393_iso-8859-1 Greetings! Below is an article from The Times of London sent tome by a friend. The war is one against the Palestinians in general, to destroy their society on the West Bank. I am sure that Ariel Sharon and the powers-that-be in his government would like to inflict the same collective punishment on Gaza. Sharon's strategy can be summed up by two words: death and destruction. [...] 22185 353 50_URGENT/ Inter-religious M.E. peace statement /J3]]0_23_rebshloime@netscape.net31_Thu, 11 Apr 2002 21:01:33 -0400412_iso-8859-1 An inter-religious call for an end to end the war and for peace.



__________________________________________________________________ Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop@Netscape! http://shopnow.netscape.com/

Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ 22539 20 38_RE: Children Scream for Water in Jenin12_Fine, Sharon14_FineS@MLHS.ORG31_Thu, 11 Apr 2002 22:05:45 -0400327_iso-8859-1 Most of you on Habonet know many people in the army. Some of you have served in the army. Even if you believe that Sharon is a ruthless killer who thirsts for Palestinian blood, can you believe the garbage in this article would be committed by your friends or even aquaintances in the army? Get real! -Sharon F [...] 22560 59 38_Re: Children Scream for Water in Jenin0_18_Brianscoop@aol.com29_Thu, 11 Apr 2002 22:20:07 EDT325_US-ASCII > Most of you on Habonet know many people in the army. Some of you have > served in the army. Even if you believe that Sharon is a ruthless killer > who thirsts for Palestinian blood, can you believe the garbage in this > article would be committed by your friends or even aquaintances in the army? > Get real! [...] 22620 168 31_FW: [YeshGvul] Digest Number 2711_Batel Libes25_batel_libes@earthlink.net31_Thu, 11 Apr 2002 22:47:39 -0700438_iso-8859-1 Dear Friend,

Yesh Gvul

Invites you to take part in an

ALTERNATIVE INDEPENCE EVENING CEREMONY

Dedicated to making Israel into a more moral, just and egalitarian society.

We will light beacons for the immediate end of the unnecessary war, to stop the reconquest of the Palestinian territories, to the mending of our wrongdoings, to fix the injustices that are done to the weak amongst us. [...] 22789 243 27_How I Spent My Spring Break12_Doug Greener25_ddwgreen@netvision.net.il31_Fri, 12 Apr 2002 08:58:35 +0300600_windows-1255

> MASSIVE RALLY: > > Tens of thousands of Israelis are putting their lives on the line to > defend the Jewish State. > > Please give one day for Israel. > > Busloads and airplanes of Israel supporters from across America will be > coming to Washington, DC, to show support for Israel's campaign against > terror and violence. > > Monday, April 15 (Patriots Day) > 1:00 p.m., US Capitol > > Sponsored by the Conference of Presidents of Major American Jewish > Organizations, in conjunction with nearly every Jewish organization. > > For info: > http://www.israelrally.org/ > [...] 23033 48 38_Re: Children Scream for Water in Jenin10_Ori Siegel17_oris@interlog.com31_Fri, 12 Apr 2002 02:09:47 -0400335_us-ascii At 08:40 PM 2002-04-11 -0400, rebshloime@netscape.net wrote: >Below is an article from The Times of London

And I believe every word of it. And I believe in the tooth fairy and the big rock candy mountain. If I weren't Jewish, I'd probably believe in Santa Claus, too. Oh, what the hell - I believe in Santa Claus. [...] 23082 17 19_Children Scream....21_Tsippi (Frances) Rudy16_tsippi@attbi.com31_Fri, 12 Apr 2002 00:48:01 -0700403_us-ascii Thank you, Ori and Sharon, for being voices of sanity.

Tsippi

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 23100 49 38_The Queen of Interviewers strikes back13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il31_Fri, 12 Apr 2002 14:18:42 +0200226_windows-1255 This is an extraordinary tirade by Oriana Fallaci, the famous Italian journalist. As it's rather long, I suggest you make a cup of coffee and take the 15 minutes or so to enjoy it. http://www.fallaci.blogspot.com/ 23150 189 20_the jenin "massacre"7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Fri, 12 Apr 2002 17:03:04 +0300576_windows-1255 I think the article forwarded by shloime is about the last straw for me with Habonet. No, I do not want to blame this list, because many good straigth-thinking people do write what they know to be true. I am sitting mourning my dead nephew, listening to the soldiers and the officers who fought with Gedalya in Jenin and I hear stories different from what this article reports. One soldier who was fighting with Gedalya told us how they entered a house and found two parents and 5 terribly frightened children huddled in the corner of the room. Gedalya took [...] 23340 53 23_Re: Children Scream....11_Don Goelman25_don.goelman@villanova.edu31_Fri, 12 Apr 2002 10:56:06 -0400244_us-ascii And you, Tsippi, and various others ... for carrying the ball when some of us can't be on 24/7 watch for misinformation.

"Tsippi (Frances) Rudy" wrote:

> Thank you, Ori and Sharon, for being voices of sanity. > > Tsippi > 23394 28 17_Re: intepretation0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com29_Fri, 12 Apr 2002 11:00:39 EDT570_US-ASCII I don't know who Ron Schultz is, but I think that anyone who needed proof before this that Arafat was orchastrating the terror has some kind of mental impairment. The evidence was overwhelming even before the latest reported finds by the Israelis. I understand that the documents are now being evaluated by the CIA. I do not think they are easily duped. Its not like they took they evidence and sent it to the National Enquirer. Nick Kristoff, in his anti Sharon article in the New York Times today all but admits that the evidence is good and that Arafat [...] 23423 18 12_(no subject)0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com29_Fri, 12 Apr 2002 11:20:16 EDT518_US-ASCII Elihu and Ron, here is thr Kristoff piece. These are the issues that should define the debate, not silly stuff like whether Arafat supports terror or not or whether the moon is made o

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 23442 148 13_green cheese.0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com29_Fri, 12 Apr 2002 11:23:01 EDT467_US-ASCII Here is the Kristoff posting. This is what should define the debate. Not silly things like whether or not the moon is made out of green cheese or whether Arafat is directing the terror.

April 12, 2002

Aiding the Enemy By NICHOLAS D. KRISTOF



More Op-Ed Columns

Columnist Biography: Nicholas Kristof















Topics Alerts

Sharon, Ariel

Arafat, Yasir [...] 23591 143 31_the other side of green cheese.0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com29_Fri, 12 Apr 2002 11:25:48 EDT801_ISO-8859-1 Here is the other side of the debate.

April 12, 2002

Why Israel's Mission Must Continue By NITSAN ALON









Topics Alerts

Israel

Armament, Defense and Military Forces

Palestinians

Terrorism

Create Your Own | Manage Alerts Take a Tour





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ASHINGTON - Although Israel's military operation in the West Bank may seem like an emotion-driven reaction to terrorist attacks, it is in fact based on precise intelligence and well-defined military objectives. Thus, while the government appreciates the depth of American strategic support to Israel's security, it has to continue certain aspects of the operation despite American expectations and [...] 23735 51 35_Re: the other side of green cheese.0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Fri, 12 Apr 2002 16:14:26 EDT606_US-ASCII Hey Sam, Good to see you posting. It seems to me after reading these pieces and a hundred other postings on my favorite bulletin board, that the IDF is engaged in an effort to do a surgical job of arresting or killing terrorists at the organizational level and not at the adolescent self-bomb level. This is admirable (even Jewish), but even surgery requires a clear and sanitized field. Unfortunately neither the geography of west bank villages nor the psychological strategy of the manifest destiny Palestinians will allow for IDF operations in a clean field. As a result, boys being boys, [...] 23787 84 22_re: how do you see it?0_19_simagr@telhai.ac.il31_Fri, 12 Apr 2002 23:16:52 +0300581_- Once again Yigal has spoken to the point and clearly expressed what many of us feel.

\"Us\" are those who voted Meretz and Labour in most elections. We are those who supported the peace process, who held our breath while Barak offered Arafat so much, hoping, praying that this would finally bring a solution - that would allow Palestinians and Israelis to live with dignity. We are those who are painfully aware that we will have to give up our homes for peace, but who nonetheless supported the Labor party in their efforts to bring peace with Syria, believing that [...] 23872 241 0_13_Kathee Lavine26_holycowfoods@earthlink.net31_Fri, 12 Apr 2002 15:58:23 -0700601_iso-8859-1

I'm sending along this article which appeared in our local newspaper today. Nir is a ben meshek of K'var Hanassi. His parents made aliya 42 years ago from English Habonim.

April 12, 2002

Commentary / Nir Pearlson: Occupation, terrorism devastate two peoples By NIR PEARLSON THE WEEPING WILL LAST for generations to come, and what are we to tell our offspring? I was born and raised in Israel, where I served in an elite unit in the Israeli Defense Forces. When my comrades and I were trained to be soldiers, we knew that our army was essential for protecting our [...] 24114 21 20_On a lighter side...0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Sat, 13 Apr 2002 13:38:02 EDT627_US-ASCII My son, Micha, has a band which has been touring and they just released their first cd- The band does original songs ( Hebrew and English) and their sound is basically a mix of George Winston-Simon and Garfunkle-light jazz...you can hear samples at their website: milothanefesh.com

Sue

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 24136 195 35_Considering Alternatives for peace.0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Sat, 13 Apr 2002 13:41:25 EDT458_UTF-8 Dear Chaverim,

I am driven to understand.

I believe that political behavior is built on logic, that is all statements, policies, and actions has a purpose -- an intended result. Most such decisions have as their primary or secondary intent to preserve or expand the power of the people making them. Applying these principles to Arafat and the PA with regard to the negotiation of a permanent peace agreement with Israel, I conclude: [...] 24332 64 47_From Terezin to Mahaneh Yehuda by way of Jenin:12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Sat, 13 Apr 2002 23:24:17 +0200600_us-ascii

Haverim/ot We returned to Jerusalem from Prague yesterday a few hours before the latest of the Mahaneh Yehuda bombings; the trip and its aftermath have unleashed a train of thought I would like to share with you. At first instance the train might appear to be unrelated to the recent traffic on Habonet. Let me start by saying that just as one must learn to differentiate between a social slight and a pogrom, one must also realize that there is a qualitative, elephantine difference between a pogrom and a holocaust. Recent events, appalling as they are, seem to have released [...] 24397 152 28_Jenin/ From: The Independent0_23_rebshloime@netscape.net31_Sat, 13 Apr 2002 20:46:07 -0400643_iso-8859-1 Shavuah Tov,

I hate to think this, but Israel is being propelled by its rulers in the direction envisioned by Revisionist Zionism. Those once considered "Revisionists" are now represent mainstream Zionism. The continued Occupation has dealt a near-fatal blow to Labor Zionism from which it may never recover. Among the youth movements, Betar, not Habonim-Dror or Hashomer Hatzair, is in line with the mainstream of Israeli politics. Not A.D Gordon, Achad Haam or Martin Buber but Begin, Jabotinsky and Sharon. What happened and is happening in Jenin is the tragic consequence. The Torah says: I have given you the power [...] 24550 43 32_Re: Jenin/ From: The Independent0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com29_Sun, 14 Apr 2002 03:29:48 EDT428_US-ASCII While I don't necessarily believe all that is written in this article, the fact that Israel does not allow journalists in suggests that they do feel they have something to hide. If any other government were doing that, most of us would have no problem believing the worst. The fact that I know people who are in the IDF and have been does not convince me that there is not something rotten in the state of Israel. [...] 24594 216 32_Re: Jenin/ From: The Independent7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Sun, 14 Apr 2002 10:40:36 +0300567_iso-8859-1 I have spent the last week listening to first hand accounts of soldiers, including my son who is a tank gunner in reserve duty in Jenin. 1. There is a real war going on in Jenin, which is/was a hothouse of terrorists. People get killed in war. 2. Most of the terrorists who butchered (remember?) innocent Israeli citizens came out of Jenin. 3. Every soldier who came to the shiva told us that civilians were not targeted, only houses where shooting came from. If civilians did not leave the houses as asked, they were killed or injured when the tanks [...] 24811 426 16_Attack on Powell12_Doug Greener25_ddwgreen@netvision.net.il31_Sat, 13 Apr 2002 23:37:03 +0300729_iso-8859-1

----- Original Message ----- From: Aryeh Zelasko To: aryeh@israelvisit.co.il Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2002 11:14 PM Subject: mixed emotions



http://www.debka.com/

Palestinian Attack on Powell Motorcade Foiled DEBKAfile Special Report

12 April: Israeli security foiled a Palestinian terrorist attempt to hit the motorcade driving US secretary of state Colin Powellfrom Ben Gurion Airport to Jerusalem Thursday night, April 12, shortly after he landed. The Secretary was accompanied by Israeli foreign minister Shimon Peres and heads of the US embassy. Just before 9 pm IT, two hours before the US Secretary arrived, a Palestinian Red Crescent ambulance was stopped by a hidden [...] 25238 44 32_Re: Jenin/ From: The Independent13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Sun, 14 Apr 2002 07:16:34 -0400 25283 237 20_the other way around16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Sun, 14 Apr 2002 10:26:57 -0400666_us-ascii Sharon to Powell: "Bush has to withdraw from Afghanistan at once"

by our correspondant in Jerusalem JERUSALEM. Concluding his remarks after the join press conference, Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon surprised the Secretary of State when he announced that Operation Enduring Freedom had run its course, and therefore the United States, in the name of peace, must withdraw its troops from Afghanistan. "Israel recognizes the rights of sovereign states to defend themselves from terror," Sharon said, "but the World Trade Center atrocity occurred nearly seven months ago, there have been no further such incidents in the U.S., and the American [...] 25521 29 32_Re: Jenin/ From: The Independent0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com29_Sun, 14 Apr 2002 11:37:56 EDT127_US-ASCII Judy, you don't think the U.S. was trying to hide things from people by baring journalists from places in Afghanistan? 25551 57 11_Opportunity11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org31_Sun, 14 Apr 2002 10:41:04 -0500431_us-ascii Subj: JEWISH AGENCY CALL: VOLUNTEER FOR ISRAEL NOW! Date: 4/13/02 3:44:55 PM Pacific Daylight Time From: imra@netvision.net.il To: imra@imra.org.il Sent from the Internet (Details)



In light of the war in Israel and the launching of "Operation Defensive Shield," the Jewish Agency is initiating a special project that will give concrete expression to the concept of world Jewish solidarity with Israel. [...] 25609 64 32_Re: Jenin/ From: The Independent10_Ori Siegel17_oris@interlog.com31_Sun, 14 Apr 2002 11:38:23 -0400645_us-ascii At 03:29 AM 2002-04-14 -0400, Richardrdsmith@aol.com wrote: >While I don't necessarily believe all that is written in this article, the >fact that Israel does not allow journalists in suggests that they do feel >they have something to hide.

Try this thought, Richard. Perhaps the Israelis are tired of the Palestinians playing to Western cameras. It astounds me that our journalists (including the ones I work with at the CBC) have never made any serious thought in comparing the relative freedom of access under Israeli jurisdiction as opposed to the carefully staged and very restrictive PA events. The spectre of Lebanon [...] 25674 19 53_FWD: Special themes | Independence Day | Lashir Ivrit11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org31_Sun, 14 Apr 2002 10:47:00 -0500458_us-ascii In case you didn't come across this yet: Rozzie

http://www.jewishagency-ed.org/festivls/ZKATZ/ATZ/music.html



------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 25694 319 45_=?iso-8859-1?B?5PLh+OQ6IHdvcnRoIHJlYWRpbmc=?=8_ericmoli25_ericmoli@netvision.net.il31_Sun, 14 Apr 2002 18:49:19 +0200799_iso-8859-1 Hi,

I do hope that the following will get through to Habonet, and that everyone will take the time to read it. It just might clear the air for some of you who are still sitting on the fence and debating with yourselves about who is right or wrong.

Hag Samach!

Mollie Mollie ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul To: Dave Pepper ; ericmoli ; Gerald Silber ; ; Louis Green ; Michael Harris ; Michelle Lubczanski ; Trend & Thomas ; Ros Ordman Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2002 10:34 AM Subject: Fw: worth reading [...] 26014 82 50_From Terezin to Mahaneh Yehudah by way of Jenin II12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Sun, 14 Apr 2002 23:49:48 +0200569_us-ascii

Guess what? There's a Hamsin today. That means the sky's still firmly ensconced up there doing its thing. Unless we're talking Ivrit and then the word "shamyim" has the added meaning * the heavens* with the connotation of God or one of his attributes adhering to them. If that's what we denote when we say sky, then it has indeed fallen. But the fall wasn't yesterday. It can be said to have begun with Bialik and his generation. And if you want to pinpoint it even more, the Kishinev pogrom of 1903. Within six years the responses in Jewish life [...] 26097 40 15_Personal Attack0_23_rebshloime@netscape.net31_Sun, 14 Apr 2002 20:00:15 -0400383_iso-8859-1 Hello,

I have just received two personal email from someone on Habonet attacking me. Although it would be totally unethical to reveal the name, I wonder why the person didn't have the guts to attack me through Habonet.

Ironically, I had just written XYZ, in response to a less hostile, former email that we shouldn't personalize differences of opinion. [...] 26138 25 10_Number Two0_23_rebshloime@netscape.net31_Sun, 14 Apr 2002 20:00:33 -0400801_iso-8859-1 Here is the second one:

>Boy Sol...you a faciltator of terror...who would have thought. Forgive me >while I sit shiva. >



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------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 26164 26 19_Re: Personal Attack13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Sun, 14 Apr 2002 20:18:21 -0400362_us-ascii Dear "Reb" Shloime.

Are you telling us so that we can take a vote as to whom we agree with, the person who thinks your postings are "crap" or with you?

It seems to me that whoever wrote you this email was actually trying to be respectful of the list by letting you know what they thought in private rather than flaming you in public. [...] 26191 72 19_Re: Personal Attack0_18_Brianscoop@aol.com29_Sun, 14 Apr 2002 20:27:43 EDT471_US-ASCII Judy says: > It seems to me that whoever wrote you this email was actually trying to be > respectful of the list by letting you know what they thought in private rather than > flaming you in public.

Neither "flaming in public" nor private attacks are acceptable here.

Habonet is a community whose sole raison d'etre is discussion. If you disagree with someone and have constructive comments in that regard, post it to the list, or keep quiet. [...] 26264 20 8_DC rally11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Sun, 14 Apr 2002 21:08:22 -0400450_us-ascii

Who else is going to the rally Monday in DC? Is there going to be an official Habonim presence?

Noam

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 26285 217 46_Washington DC: Brit Tzedek v'Shalom Conference0_23_rebshloime@netscape.net31_Sun, 14 Apr 2002 21:20:49 -0400447_iso-8859-1 Shalom,

Some of you probably already know about this conference. I hope some Habonet people will be able to attend and to write about it. I think it's completely in the tradition of Tikkun Olam.

Shloime



Subject: Washington DC: Brit Tzedek v'Shalom Conference

The Organizing Committee for Brit Tzedek v'Shalom: Jewish Alliance for Justice and Peace Cordially Invites You to an Urgent Conference: [...] 26503 21 12_Re: DC rally0_13_JLCAA@aol.com29_Sun, 14 Apr 2002 21:29:33 EDT587_US-ASCII There will be an official Jewish Labor Committee presence. We're meeting in front of the American Federation of Teachers Building at noon and marching together.

PS We've arranged to have John Sweeney, President of the AFL-CIO speak at the rally.

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 26525 44 19_RE: Personal Attack11_Batel Libes25_batel_libes@earthlink.net31_Sun, 14 Apr 2002 18:31:50 -0700415_us-ascii Judy, When you are the sole recipient of this message, it does not feel like someone is posting an opinion, it feels like you are being hunter.

Batel

-----Original Message----- From: owner-habonet@shamash.org [mailto:owner-habonet@shamash.org]On Behalf Of Judith Gelman Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2002 5:18 PM To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: Re: Personal Attack

Dear "Reb" Shloime. [...] 26570 22 12_Re: DC rally0_13_JLCAA@aol.com29_Sun, 14 Apr 2002 21:33:17 EDT346_US-ASCII BTW we expect 1500+ buses in addition to special charter flights and trains. People are coming from LA, Toronto, Nashville .... from all over the country. A Black Church in Harlem is sending a couple of buses. A lot of this is spontaneous and not J community organized. People just heard about it and organized groups on their own. [...] 26593 54 19_RE: Personal Attack11_Batel Libes25_batel_libes@earthlink.net31_Sun, 14 Apr 2002 18:40:35 -0700418_us-ascii Oooops, that should have been hunted.

-----Original Message----- From: owner-habonet@shamash.org [mailto:owner-habonet@shamash.org]On Behalf Of Batel Libes Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2002 6:32 PM To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: RE: Personal Attack

Judy, When you are the sole recipient of this message, it does not feel like someone is posting an opinion, it feels like you are being hunter. [...] 26648 835 47_"There is no UN. There are only nation states."12_Doug Greener25_ddwgreen@netvision.net.il31_Sun, 14 Apr 2002 22:56:33 +0300531_windows-1255 Why Israel should refuse

a UN peacekeeping force

By Jock L. Falkson

falkson@netvision.net.il

April 14, 2002





“States,” said Mr. Kofi Annan, “have the duty to protect their citizens from terrorism. But they must also take the greatest care to ensure that counter-terrorism does not become an all-embracing concept that is used to cloak, or justify, violations of human rights.” (Do remind President Bush when next you natter with him about Afghanistan, will you?) [...] 27484 268 50_Re: Washington DC: Brit Tzedek v'Shalom Conference7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Mon, 15 Apr 2002 08:21:26 +0300377_iso-8859-1 your message is very misleading. There are not thousands of Israelis demonstrating daily under the slogans you mention-- at least try to be accurate. You lose credibility this way. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, April 15, 2002 4:20 AM Subject: Washington DC: Brit Tzedek v'Shalom Conference [...] 27753 112 27_Re: Jenin / The Independent9_yigalsela18_ysela@inter.net.il31_Mon, 15 Apr 2002 07:31:03 +0200631_windows-1255 The I.D.F. has nothing to hide. Wars are dangerous. In wars people die, on both sides, mostly soldiers or armed guerrillas/terrorists/ freedom fighters (you choose the alternative). But civilians are caught in cossfire.

Last week 13 Israeli soldiers were killed in action one one day, in one house. They were killed because the I.D.F. does not go round randomly shooting at civilians. They dies because they entered a suspicious house and were not to question the suspects, and a suicide bomber blew himself away and part of the squad. This wasn't enough and despite the fact there WERE innocent civilians [...] 27866 46 27_Re: Jenin / The Independent0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com29_Mon, 15 Apr 2002 04:00:06 EDT607_US-ASCII In a message dated 4/15/02 1:33:37 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ysela@inter.net.il writes:



>

The why not allow journalists into Jenin? The U.S., since the time of Reagan, has prevented journalists from covering wars because when they didn't (as during Vietnam) things were reported that the government didn't like. So they decided to hide what was happening by not allowing journalists easy access to the war. Israel is now doing the same. Even if the IDF has nothing at all to hide, which is quite possible, by not allowing the journalists in they appear to be hiding something. 27913 151 20_Gedalya, Oh Gedalya!7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Mon, 15 Apr 2002 14:05:31 +0300543_windows-1255 Where does one start? How do you get your thoughts together to make order of the stories told about Gedalya? I know I have to do it for those who knew and loved him, and for those who did not have the z'chut - the privilege - to know him. vignettes, stories that stay in my mind about Gedalya..... The first day of the shiva some of his former soldiers came and told us that Gedalya never allowed them to speak badly of anyone, to complain against anyone, not to embarrass or demean anyone; he taught them to treat everyone, [...] 28065 84 27_Re: Jenin / The Independent7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Mon, 15 Apr 2002 14:26:59 +0300525_iso-8859-1 The fighting was furious, and every house and street and tree and sidewalk and car was boobytrapped. That is all we would need to have journalists killed in Jenin. Soldiers are trained to be careful and know what to look for and still they are killed, just like Gedalya was seconds after warning another soldier about the danger from the window. pearl ----- Original Message ----- From: Richardrdsmith@aol.com To: habonet@shamash.org Sent: Monday, April 15, 2002 11:00 AM Subject: Re: Jenin / The Independent [...] 28150 179 19_Re: Personal Attack11_Greg Taylor25_gttaylor@worldnet.att.net31_Mon, 15 Apr 2002 08:53:35 -0400576_iso-8859-1 Brian, I have only commented on-line a couple of times, but I have read most of the postings and I do feel that there are a great deal of nasty personal attacks on the list. Some of the worst personal attacks come from some of the people with the most liberal/humanitarian viewpoints. Seems funny to me that people who believe so strongly on personal freedoms should deny that right to people whose opinions they don't share. Amnon made the most vicious attack (against Pearl) that I have read on this list. It was so mean-spirited that I haven't forgotten it [...] 28330 56 19_Re: Personal Attack0_18_Brianscoop@aol.com29_Mon, 15 Apr 2002 09:02:42 EDT373_US-ASCII > The Washington Post had a good op/ed piece this morning that stated that it is > freedom of speech in Israel that will save her. Freedom of speech without the > personal attacks should also save this list.

Thanks for writing. These are good points.

regards, brian





----------------------------- Brian Cooper brianscoop@aol.com 28387 33 12_Re: DC rally0_15_Marshlf@aol.com29_Mon, 15 Apr 2002 10:56:29 EDT203_US-ASCII hi noam-- i was planning to go, but i wrenched my back at practice yesterday and i can't move. i really wanted to go. rachel is going; i don;t know who else. i may have to hang up my cleats..... 28421 32 12_Re: DC rally0_15_Marshlf@aol.com29_Mon, 15 Apr 2002 10:58:34 EDT82_US-ASCII oops, sorry that reply should have been sent to noam only....

lisa 28454 49 27_Re: Jenin / The Independent0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Mon, 15 Apr 2002 11:03:58 EDT545_US-ASCII In a message dated 4/15/2002 1:00:50 AM Pacific Daylight Time, Richardrdsmith@aol.com writes:



> The why not allow journalists into Jenin?

According to all reports, the entire town has been booby trapped-including civilian homes, stolen cars, etc... Perhaps the IDF is trying to "make safe" the town for more innocent people ( reporters, red-cross) so that more innocent lives won't be lost- I am not naive- but I don't think we have the right to second-guess the IDF which is in the middle of all of this terror..s 28504 24 27_Re: Jenin / The Independent0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Mon, 15 Apr 2002 11:45:26 EDT541_US-ASCII Richard, this is not so much a response to your posting, as something triggered by it. We talk about the bias of the media toward the Palestinians - because of anti-Semitism, or favoring of the underdog, or some Israeli violation of deeply held media values (an oxymoron), or the greater proficiency and volume of Palestinian sound bites, lies, and availability of spokespersons to blame Israel. Is there anyone out there other than the conservative Christian Right that is clearly sympathetic toward the Israeli cause? Dennis [...] 28529 804 59_These seven reasons show why Israel is entitled to the land21_Tsippi (Frances) Rudy16_tsippi@attbi.com31_Mon, 15 Apr 2002 13:07:10 -0700555_us-ascii A glimmer of light in Israel's dark night....





>PEACE IN THE MIDDLE EAST > >Senate Floor Statement by U.S. Sen. James M. Inhofe (R-Okla) > >March 4, 2002 > >I was interested the other day when I heard that the de facto ruler, Saudi >Arabian Crown Prince Abdullah, made a statement which was received by many >in this country as if it were a statement of fact, as if it were something >new, a concept for peace in the Middle East that no one had ever heard of >before. I was kind of shocked that it was so well received [...] 29334 20 63_Re: These seven reasons show why Israel is entitled to the land12_David Fleiss20_dfleiss@pipeline.com31_Mon, 15 Apr 2002 16:30:10 -0400 29355 16 63_Re: These seven reasons show why Israel is entitled to the land12_David Fleiss20_dfleiss@pipeline.com31_Mon, 15 Apr 2002 16:33:06 -0400 29372 50 27_Re: Jenin / The Independent0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com29_Mon, 15 Apr 2002 18:36:32 EDT509_US-ASCII In a message dated 4/15/02 11:04:53 AM Eastern Daylight Time, LiberHawke@aol.com writes:



> According to all reports, the entire town has been booby trapped-including > civilian homes, stolen cars, etc... Perhaps the IDF is trying to "make > safe" the town for more innocent people ( reporters, red-cross) so that > more innocent lives won't be lost- I am not naive- but I don't think we > have the right to second-guess the IDF which is in the middle of all of > this terror..s > [...] 29423 50 27_Re: Jenin / The Independent0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com29_Mon, 15 Apr 2002 18:41:03 EDT376_US-ASCII In a message dated 4/15/02 11:46:13 AM Eastern Daylight Time, DLerner569@aol.com writes:



> We talk about the bias of the media toward the Palestinians > - because of anti-Semitism, or favoring of the underdog, or some Israeli > violation of deeply held media values (an oxymoron),

...or because they happen to disagree with Israeli policy. [...] 29474 231 27_RE: Jenin / The Independent11_Batel Libes25_batel_libes@earthlink.net31_Mon, 15 Apr 2002 15:46:17 -0700293_us-ascii What I'm seeing is that the day-to-day reporting is leaning toward the Palestinians. The analysts, on the other hand, are pro Israel, do not like Arafat, and expect more of Sharon and Israel (recall the Or L'goyim discussion we had a while back?). At least the ones I have seen. [...] 29706 154 40_5,000 Israelis try to bring aid to Jenin0_23_rebshloime@netscape.net31_Mon, 15 Apr 2002 20:38:38 -0400647_iso-8859-1 Hello,

Following is a letter from Jerusalem, via an organization in Montreal (Jews Against the Occupation), on a very recent attempt to bring relief aid into Jenin. It's worth reading.

Shloime



>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >> Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 01:23:41 +0200 >> From: Gila Svirsky >> To: Gila Svirsky >> Subject: Adding cruelty to injury >> >> Friends, >> >> I have wanted to write this story to you since Saturday, but it's not >> yet >> over. >> >> On Saturday, a large group of us (at least 5,000 though the Israeli >> media [...] 29861 73 20_The old is new again0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Mon, 15 Apr 2002 20:49:27 EDT575_US-ASCII Chaverim,

I find that when I look at something familiar: a flower, a picture, my wife lying a sleep beside me, my children, or my mother - I am always finding something new. It is not that these things have changed, but rather than even simple things may be seen in new and exciting ways, if we allow ourselves to persist beyond the point of recognition. I understand my brain to register an image and then attempt to catalogue it, associate it with a file of experience and prior observation. My brain is somewhat weak in the recollection of experience [...] 29935 285 51_Probably the smartest man in the Israeli government12_Doug Greener25_ddwgreen@netvision.net.il31_Tue, 16 Apr 2002 10:15:32 +0300469_windows-1255 Subject: Letter from Natan Sharansky Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 12:41:57 -0400

The following is a critically important letter from Natan (Anatoly) Sharansky which must receive the broadest possible circulation.

Letter from Natan Sharansky

April 8, 2002 Jerusalem

Dear Friends, As we continue to face critical days and mounting pressures, I feel it important to share firsthand some thoughts on the events of the last few days. [...] 30221 44 27_Re: Jenin / The Independent12_Stan Goldman17_stan@zahav.net.il31_Wed, 16 Apr 2003 10:00:48 +0200122_iso-8859-1 someone now serving in the idf told me that the reporters want headlines not facts it's not news to most of us. 30266 103 24_RE: The old is new again11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Tue, 16 Apr 2002 06:10:26 -0700467_us-ascii Dennis

I have been following your letters for almost a year now. With the idea that we must have our peacemakers as well as staunch defenders, especially now in a growing tinderbox atmosphere, I have been reading intently for the pragmatic part of your message. Acquiescence? Mollification? Capitulation? Roll over once again? Please help me understand. I value you as a friend, and no matter what your response will be, it will not change that. [...] 30370 177 44_RE: 5,000 Israelis try to bring aid to Jenin11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Tue, 16 Apr 2002 06:22:12 -0700550_iso-8859-1 I wonder what it would have looked like, bringing aid and comfort to Berlin and Dresden in 1944? Nazis (and innocent German men, women and children) must have suffered horribly during the war. It would have been humanitarian. It wouldn't have been "the right thing to do".

Steve

-----Original Message----- From: owner-habonet@shamash.org [mailto:owner-habonet@shamash.org]On Behalf Of rebshloime@netscape.net Sent: Monday, April 15, 2002 5:39 PM To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: 5,000 Israelis try to bring aid to Jenin [...] 30548 28 27_Re: Jenin / The Independent10_Ori Siegel17_oris@interlog.com31_Tue, 16 Apr 2002 09:45:05 -0400601_us-ascii At 10:00 AM 2003-04-16 +0200, Stan Goldman wrote: >someone now serving in the idf told me that the reporters want headlines >not facts it's not news to most of us.

It's a sound bite generation and the old adage is "if it bleeds, it leads." It always makes much better visuals to have screaming Palestinians parading blood and gore spattered corpses through the streets as opposed to the Israeli version that eschews the blood and gore part. There's another old adage: "Everything you read in the newspaper is absolutely true except for the rare item for which you have first-hand [...] 30577 50 53_Re: Jenin / The Independent - parading blood and gore11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Tue, 16 Apr 2002 09:57:10 -0400574_us-ascii

Ori Siegel wrote:

> At 10:00 AM 2003-04-16 +0200, Stan Goldman wrote: > >someone now serving in the idf told me that the reporters want headlines > >not facts it's not news to most of us. > > It's a sound bite generation and the old adage is "if it bleeds, it > leads." It always makes much better visuals to have screaming Palestinians > parading blood and gore spattered corpses through the streets as opposed to > the Israeli version that eschews the blood and gore part. There's another > old adage: "Everything you read in the newspaper is [...] 30628 24 21_Jenin/The Independent16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Tue, 16 Apr 2002 10:25:52 -0400446_us-ascii In Afghanistan, the US used what is colloqially called a "daisy cutter." That's a 15,000 pound bomb which, in World War II was called a "block-buster." Because one such bomb could level an entire city block.

Given the hue-and-cry over Israeli tactics in Jenin, maybe a few "daisy cutters" would have been a neater and more felicitous tool than an infantry attack? Certainly, there'd have been no Israeli casualties that way. [...] 30653 55 24_Re: The old is new again0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Tue, 16 Apr 2002 10:48:11 EDT455_US-ASCII Dear Steve,

you are right. Habonet divides into those who put Israel first and those who put peace first ( I mean no slight to either group by this simplistic categorization) I read both groups with equal regard and concern for the individuals and for the issues. Many of my posting are reflections of what I have read here and my personal process of trying to find a path. You ask me for a conclusion. A pragmatic answer. All right. [...] 30709 18 44_Re: 5,000 Israelis try to bring aid to Jenin0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Tue, 16 Apr 2002 10:49:46 EDT416_US-ASCII Steve, Now please tell me where you stand. I would value your perspective. Dennis

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 30728 28 33_What seems to have been forgotten9_R. Shultz18_lzac@securenet.net31_Tue, 16 Apr 2002 10:54:20 -0400628_iso-8859-1 >From Israel's Declaration of Independence:

THE STATE OF ISRAEL will be open for Jewish immigration and for the Ingathering of the Exiles; it will foster the development of the country for the benefit of all its inhabitants; it will be based on freedom, justice and peace as envisaged by the prophets of Israel; it will ensure complete equality of social and political rights to all its inhabitants irrespective of religion, race or sex; it will guarantee freedom of religion, conscience, language, education and culture; it will safeguard the Holy Places of all religions; and it will be faithful to the [...] 30757 48 24_Re: The old is new again0_18_Brianscoop@aol.com29_Tue, 16 Apr 2002 11:04:14 EDT577_US-ASCII Dennis says: > Habonet divides into those who put Israel first and those who > put peace first ( I mean no slight to either group by this simplistic > categorization)

Dennis, this is not just simplistic: It is wrong. It is misleading. And it represents a dangerous categorization. Implicit in this neat summary is the suggestion that peace and survival (I assume by "Israel first", you mean survival; what else could you mean by that?) are mutually exclusive. And what are the views expressed in Habonet that you see as representative of these two stands? [...] 30806 30 24_Re: The old is new again12_David Fleiss20_dfleiss@pipeline.com31_Tue, 16 Apr 2002 11:26:52 -0400360_- >>> If we must divide Habonet into two camps, perhaps we can identify a camp that promotes support of the Government of Israel (at least publicly) -- i.e., Israel right or wrong -- vs a camp that has no problem with public expression of opposition. And again, both would claim that their view is the surest support for long term survival of Israel. <<< [...] 30837 21 24_Re: The old is new again0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Tue, 16 Apr 2002 12:08:32 EDT359_US-ASCII Thank you for the input. I was responding to a question on the fly and as I said in the ,message the categorization was superficial, not crafted. Everyone I offended, and I'm sure everyone was offended, I offer my sincere apology. No offense was intended and I place no one into such categories in fact. I think my postings reflect that. Dennis [...] 30859 88 44_RE: 5,000 Israelis try to bring aid to Jenin11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Tue, 16 Apr 2002 11:18:48 -0700311_us-ascii Dear Dennis

I will have to give my short response, as I am in one of the most hectic periods of my life.

Israel (as represented by its governments) is not always right. We don't always have the correct person or persons leading the people. Sometimes we have to do with what we have. [...] 30948 111 27_RE: Jenin / The Independent11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Tue, 16 Apr 2002 11:32:35 -0700450_us-ascii Screw the reporters. They do not have to be in the way during operations that are so dangerous for the IDF to be handling. They have a job to do. I guarantee to you that it could never be made to look pretty. -----Original Message----- From: owner-habonet@shamash.org [mailto:owner-habonet@shamash.org]On Behalf Of Richardrdsmith@aol.com Sent: Monday, April 15, 2002 3:37 PM To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: Re: Jenin / The Independent [...] 31060 268 38_RE: Children Scream for Water in Jenin11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Tue, 16 Apr 2002 11:42:41 -0700662_iso-8859-1 spare me!

-----Original Message----- From: owner-habonet@shamash.org [mailto:owner-habonet@shamash.org]On Behalf Of rebshloime@netscape.net Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2002 5:41 PM To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: Children Scream for Water in Jenin



Greetings! Below is an article from The Times of London sent tome by a friend. The war is one against the Palestinians in general, to destroy their society on the West Bank. I am sure that Ariel Sharon and the powers-that-be in his government would like to inflict the same collective punishment on Gaza. Sharon's strategy can be summed up by two words: death and destruction. [...] 31329 17 44_Re: 5,000 Israelis try to bring aid to Jenin0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Tue, 16 Apr 2002 14:40:47 EDT366_US-ASCII Thanks for a good start. Dennis

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 31347 790 41_=?iso-8859-1?B?5PLh+OQ6IFdlIFN1cnZpdmVk?=8_ericmoli25_ericmoli@netvision.net.il31_Wed, 17 Apr 2002 00:11:24 +0200323_iso-8859-1 äĺăňä ----- Original Message ----- From: Pnina Some To: Oiring Issie D ; Murray Moishe Oiring ; Rochelle Hoffer ; Barbara Norm Some ; Julie Maury Tretakoff ; Helen & Lionel Koven ; Lillian Liss ; Connie Campbell ; Joe Hersh ; Mollie Eric Marx Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2002 12:19 AM Subject: Fw: We Survived [...] 32138 136 41_a soldier's description of Tzav 8 call-up7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Wed, 17 Apr 2002 00:03:34 +0300531_windows-1255 > 11:36:57 +0200 > > FROM ELI, AN IDF SOLDIER: > > I wanted to share with you some of my thoughts being called up in the > emergency call-up of last week and being part of Israel's war against > terrorism. My experience was probably typical of many but left a very deep > impression on me about life here in Israel at this time. > > Friday, 29 April, the second day of Chol Hamoed, began quite normally in the > Kohn household. After shopping in our local Ramla supermarket I receive at > lunchtime a phone call. [...] 32275 120 16_Magen David Adom11_Greg Taylor25_gttaylor@worldnet.att.net31_Tue, 16 Apr 2002 18:26:41 -0400391_iso-8859-1



The Magen David Adom has put out an urgent call for donations. Due to the high number of suicide bombings their yearly budget is almost depleted. They are in desperate need of $1,000,000. Regardless of your political leanings, this is a worthy cause. If you are looking for a way to support Israel financially, this would be a good (and non-military) choice. [...] 32396 57 37_Re: What seems to have been forgotten0_18_Brianscoop@aol.com29_Tue, 16 Apr 2002 19:29:41 EDT389_US-ASCII > THE STATE OF ISRAEL [ ... ] will guarantee freedom of religion, conscience, > language, education and culture; it will safeguard the Holy Places of all > religions; [ ... ]

And still, Israel is the only democracy left where Jews don't have freedom of religion.

:) --brian







----------------------------- Brian Cooper brianscoop@aol.com 32454 182 0_12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Wed, 17 Apr 2002 11:02:14 +0200602_iso-8859-1

From Terezin to Mahaneh Yehudah by way of Jenin III Haverot/im In one of the previous segments of this saga I mentioned that during our trip to the Czech Republic two cemeteries, the one next to the Altneuschul in Prague and the other at the Terezin had set off a train of thought. The conductor was Rabbi Judah Loew ben Bezalel the MaHaral of Prague. Buber believes that Loew was the true fore-runner of nationalism (both Jewish and Christian.) The thinking of Machiaveli, Calvin, Grotius and especially Vico are all indebted to his thought. In a normal progression of events, [...] 32637 64 33_[Fwd: Fw: Israel Embassy Website]11_Roslyn Lang20_langr@georgetown.edu31_Wed, 17 Apr 2002 10:38:47 -0400687_us-ascii The Embassy website has some interesting things on it, including letters to the PA from terrorists, requesting more support and describing their actions.

-------- Original Message -------- Subject: Fw: Israel Embassy Website Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 18:13:09 -0400 From: MARIAN LUCHAU To:

The following is from the Public Affairs Office of the Israeli Embassy.Dear Friend, > > As the tragic situation in Israel continues to deteriorate, the > importance of hasbarah - explanation- becomes ever more important. > > The State of Israel has therefore opened a new National Media Centre > in Jerusalem. This Centre is [...] 32702 90 16_making decisions0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Wed, 17 Apr 2002 12:51:51 EDT591_US-ASCII Dear Amnon,

Thank you for sharing your experiences on your trip to Prague. Your ability to integrate several threads into a whole skein of yarn is a wonderful gift and a treasure for Habonet.

Steve Klein asked me the other day if I would clarify what I think should be done in our relationship with our Arab neighbors. My response from the school of pragmatism was to pick a path and follow it and be prepared to deal with the consequences. Actually, I should have elaborated that the choice should be based on the best information available, and best calculated [...] 32793 464 23_Journalistic Atrocities12_Doug Greener25_ddwgreen@netvision.net.il31_Wed, 17 Apr 2002 10:09:37 +0300603_windows-1255 HonestReporting Communique 16 APRIL 2002

"ATROCITIES OF THE BRITISH PRESS"

* * *

Dear HonestReporting Member,

One of the hallmarks of journalism is to independently verify info before printing a "fact." Otherwise, readers are only being treated to rumors, accusations and even propaganda.

The aftermath of the fighting in the Jenin refugee camp has dominated media reports. Though not independently verified, many media outlets devoted huge amounts of ink to unverified Palestinian tales of conspiracies, mass murders, common graves, and war crimes. [...] 33258 162 26_from the Irish Independent10_Ori Siegel17_oris@interlog.com31_Wed, 17 Apr 2002 15:13:15 -0400621_iso-8859-1 Every once in a while, an article such as this one appears. Thought I might pass it along:

>Weather For Dublin >Partly Sunny >Hi 11°C Lo 6°C >Todays Date: Mon April 15th 02 > Welcome to The Irish Independent Issue Date Mon, >Apr 15 02 > > >Newspapers >>- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - >-National >>Irish Independent- - - - - - - - - - - - - >- - - - -Regional Newspapers >>Anglo CeltBray >PeopleCarlow PeopleCorkmanDrogheda >IndependentEnniscorthy EchoEnniscorthy GuardianFingal >IndependentGorey EchoGorey GuardianKerrymanLeinster >ExpressLeinster LeaderLeitrim ObserverLongford >LeaderLongford [...] 33421 54 24_Yom Haatzaut in Montreal0_23_rebshloime@netscape.net31_Wed, 17 Apr 2002 15:37:53 -0400576_iso-8859-1 Dear Amnon,

Welcome back. Thanks for your historical description and analysis (which as usual, I'll need to reread for its depth) and for informing us that there were members of Habonim/Dror at the Yesh Gvul demonstration.

Today, there was a large Yom Haatzmaut demonstration and rally in Montreal, but to my mind the demo had far less to do with Yom Haatzmaut than with support for the war. I believe it's the first time ever that Yom Haatmaut has been celebrated in Montreal downtown, and as a poliical rally, rather than simply Yom Haatzmaut. [...] 33476 41 18_New Computer Virus0_23_rebshloime@netscape.net31_Wed, 17 Apr 2002 15:53:24 -0400602_iso-8859-1 I received the following from a friend.

>A new virus has just been discovered that has been classified by >Microsoft as the most destructive ever! This virus was discovered yesterday afternoon by McAfee and no vaccine has yet ! been developed. This virus simply destroys Sector Zero from the hard disk, where vital information for its functioning are stored. > >This virus acts in the following manner: It sends itself automatically to all contacts on your list with the title "A Card for You". > >As soon as the supposed virtual card is opened, the computer freezes so that the [...] 33518 44 22_Re: New Computer Virus13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il31_Wed, 17 Apr 2002 23:00:23 +0200105_iso-8859-1 Just a hoax: http://securityresponse.symantec.com/avcenter/venc/data/virtual.card.for.you.html 33563 49 22_Re: New Computer Virus0_18_Brianscoop@aol.com29_Wed, 17 Apr 2002 16:10:55 EDT446_US-ASCII Please DO NOT forward these things to Habonet, and I suggest that ANY time you get mail that tells you to forward on to everyone you know, you should DELETE it. You can always do a little research first if you still feel compelled, despite my pleading, to take these seriously. This particular hoax has been circulating on the Internet since last year. Read about it here: < http://hoaxbusters.ciac.org/HBMalCode.shtml#virtualcard> [...] 33613 36 22_Re: New Computer Virus0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com29_Wed, 17 Apr 2002 16:17:34 EDT312_US-ASCII Speak for yourself Brian. This kind of anti-social, rude behavior is unacceptable on this list. Jews do not tell other Jews not to spread unacceptable messages. This is a latent form of Jewish self-hate and I will not tolerate it. I am going to report you to our fearless leader and you will get booted. 33650 46 27_Re: Journalistic Atrocities0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com29_Wed, 17 Apr 2002 16:18:58 EDT415_US-ASCII In a message dated 4/17/02 2:35:34 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ddwgreen@netvision.net.il writes:



> One of the hallmarks of journalism is to independently verify info before > printing a "fact." Otherwise, readers are only being treated to rumors, > accusations and even propaganda. >

Maybe if the IDF had allowed reporters in, they could have made a better attempt to verify their news. 33697 54 50_Reform wins lion's share of Zionist Congress Votes9_R. Shultz18_lzac@securenet.net31_Wed, 17 Apr 2002 21:45:58 -0400567_iso-8859-1 Reform slate emerges as big winner in U.S. Zionist elections

By Shlomo Shamir - Ha'aretz April 18, 2002

NEW YORK - The ARZA/WORLD UNION North America slate, representing the Reform and Reconstructionist movements, won 42 percent of the ballots cast in the election to choose the American delegation to the 34th World Zionist Congress, scheduled to be held in Jerusalem in June. Of the approximately 89,000 ballots tallied on Tuesday, the combined Reform/Reconstructionist slate received 37,492 votes, which translates into 61 delegates. [...] 33752 33 27_Re: Journalistic Atrocities10_Ori Siegel17_oris@interlog.com31_Thu, 18 Apr 2002 01:18:47 -0400469_us-ascii At 04:18 PM 2002-04-17 -0400, Richardrdsmith@aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 4/17/02 2:35:34 PM Eastern Daylight Time, >ddwgreen@netvision.net.il writes: > > >>One of the hallmarks of journalism is to independently verify info before >>printing a "fact." Otherwise, readers are only being treated to rumors, >>accusations and even propaganda. > > >Maybe if the IDF had allowed reporters in, they could have made a better >attempt to verify their news. [...] 33786 68 28_Re: Yom Haatzaut in Montreal10_Ori Siegel17_oris@interlog.com31_Thu, 18 Apr 2002 02:31:26 -0400459_us-ascii At 03:37 PM 2002-04-17 -0400, rebshloime@netscape.net wrote: > I was part of a much smaller group, of about 75,

That many, eh?

> that wanted to make the point that the war is tragic for both Israel and > the Palestinians.

Finally, a point on which we can both agree.

>It's unfortunate that we had to rely on the Montreal police for >protection, as we might well have been attacked otherwise, as has happened >before. [...] 33855 36 22_Re: New Computer Virus10_Ori Siegel17_oris@interlog.com31_Thu, 18 Apr 2002 02:40:55 -0400299_us-ascii Others have already pointed out the fact that this is a rather old hoax and not a new virus. To me, however, it is indicative of how some people will believe absolutely everything they are told which conforms to their beliefs regardless of any attending facts. Or the absence of them. [...] 33892 41 28_Re: Yom Haatzaut in Montreal11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Thu, 18 Apr 2002 08:21:20 -0400576_us-ascii



Ori Siegel wrote:

> >It's unfortunate that we had to rely on the Montreal police for > >protection, as we might well have been attacked otherwise, as has happened > >before. > > Odd. I've never heard about this and I read the CJN and several other > Canadian papers cover to cover. I guess they must have somehow missed > this. Now if I were a person like "rebshloime" I'd take this as gospel and > blame those damned warmongering Israelis. However, the fact that it is an > unconfirmed statement lacking in even the smallest detail - not [...] 33934 143 25_Yom Haatzmaut in Montreal13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Thu, 18 Apr 2002 08:26:14 -0400616_us-ascii Dear "Reb" Shloime,

Sure, I believe you need police protection. This isn't exactly anything new, though.

In DC, the rally organizers banned poles for banners and signs from Monday's event and begged for moderation in slogans. I suspect it was to minimize violence between groups. And yes there were one or two incidents of right wingers ripping up signs that said "pro-israel pro-palestinian pro-peace." But 30 years ago, my sister, in her chultza, was punched in the nose by a JDL member during one of our numerous free Soviet Jewry rallies in front of the Russian embassy. And 30 years [...] 34078 60 29_Re: Yom Haatzmaut in Montreal0_18_Brianscoop@aol.com29_Thu, 18 Apr 2002 08:42:11 EDT579_US-ASCII > 30 years ago, my sister, in her chultza, was punched in the nose by a JDL > member during one of our numerous free Soviet Jewry rallies in front of the > Russian embassy. And 30 years before that, my uncle got into fights with > Jabotinskyites. ...

18 years ago (Feb 1983) at a Peace Now demonstration outside the Prime Minister's office Israel, while the gov't was meeting to discuss the Kahan Commission and its recommendations regarding Ariel Sharon and his complicity in the massacres at Sabra and Shatilla, a hand grenade was lobbed into the crowd by [...] 34139 128 29_Re: Yom Haatzmaut in Montreal9_R. Shultz18_lzac@securenet.net31_Thu, 18 Apr 2002 08:44:16 -0400586_iso-8859-1 Avrushmi, after he was arrested, said it was Sharon's rhetoric which motivated him to attack the peace now demonstrators.

Reuven S. Montreal ----- Original Message ----- From: Brianscoop@aol.com To: habonet@shamash.org Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 8:42 AM Subject: Re: Yom Haatzmaut in Montreal



> 30 years ago, my sister, in her chultza, was punched in the nose by a JDL > member during one of our numerous free Soviet Jewry rallies in front of the > Russian embassy. And 30 years before that, my uncle got into fights with > Jabotinskyites. ... [...] 34268 87 29_Re: Yom Haatzmaut in Montreal13_Avi Rosenberg16_avi@gezer.org.il31_Thu, 18 Apr 2002 15:47:48 +0200555_us-ascii Hi Brian I might be wrong, but I thought I heard on the radio this morning something about Avrushmi not being released.



At 08:42 18/04/02 -0400, you wrote: > > 30 years ago, my sister, in her chultza, was punched in the nose by a JDL > > member during one of our numerous free Soviet Jewry rallies in front of the > > Russian embassy. And 30 years before that, my uncle got into fights with > > Jabotinskyites. ... > >18 years ago (Feb 1983) at a Peace Now demonstration outside the Prime >Minister's office Israel, while the [...] 34356 54 29_Re: Yom Haatzmaut in Montreal0_18_Brianscoop@aol.com29_Thu, 18 Apr 2002 08:58:35 EDT300_US-ASCII > I might be wrong, but I thought I heard on the radio this morning something about > Avrushmi not being released

Hi Avi. That would be very interesting. If you hear anything more, it would be great if you would write a follow up.

Thanks! Was great to see you last month. [...] 34411 914 14_Yonah Avrushmi13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Thu, 18 Apr 2002 10:21:04 -0400266_us-ascii Dear Friends, Here is the story. THe parole board voted for his release. THe district court said no for now Shalom, Judy Gelman

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=153357&contrassID=1&subContrassID=7&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y 35326 29 16_life = 27 years?11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Thu, 18 Apr 2002 10:25:29 -0400401_us-ascii In the article Judy sent regarding Yonah Avrushmi, there was an indication he was serving a life sentence. The article also stated that he was convicted of a crime committed 18 years ago and had served 2/3 of his sentence. This would seem to imply that a life sentence in Israel is 27 years (or perhaps less, it isn't clear when the sentence started, only when the crime was committed). [...] 35356 42 29_Re: Yom Haatzmaut in Montreal10_Ori Siegel17_oris@interlog.com31_Thu, 18 Apr 2002 10:34:04 -0400622_us-ascii At 08:21 AM 2002-04-18 -0400, Noam Stopak wrote: >Odd that you don't have a similar problem with the first hand accounts of >others on habonet.

Oh now, Noam, you must know that's not true. After all, I've taken issue with some of your statements, too. Besides, there's a big difference between a first hand account and the passing of offhand remarks offered to suggest by inference that a given state of affairs exists. Do Peace Now and anti-occupation demonstrators get physically abused at rallies? Yes, they do, and that's execrable behaviour. But in this instance, rebshloime offers no first hand [...] 35399 152 20_Re: Making Decisions10_Jon Zatkin26_jzatkin@public2.bta.net.cn31_Thu, 18 Apr 2002 23:17:19 +0800401_iso-8859-1 Chevre,

Once again I am moved to emerge from lurkdom to take issue with Dennis (who still owes me a promised reply!!)

>Steve Klein asked me the other day if I would clarify what I think should be >done in our relationship with our Arab neighbors. My response from the >school of pragmatism was to pick a path and follow it and be prepared to deal >with the consequences. [...] 35552 247 17_Zionist Elections15_Leo Diesendruck18_leodie@isdn.net.il31_Thu, 18 Apr 2002 18:38:13 +0200401_us-ascii A recent posting gave election results for Zionist Congress. I made a comparison with the figures for the previous one in 1997 and here are the results (which I am presenting without comment):





Total - Loss of 21.28%

Labor Zionist Movement Loss of 48.51%

Mercaz USA (Conservative Movement) Loss of 29.33%

ARZA (Reform Movement ) Loss of 27.16% [...] 35800 41 36_Further on Yom Haatzmaut in Montreal0_23_rebshloime@netscape.net31_Thu, 18 Apr 2002 11:46:55 -0400363_iso-8859-1 Thanks for the personal descriptions and analysis, Judy.

At the Montreal Yom Haatzmaut demo/rally, there was an actual, out-and-out anti-Zionist contingent, and it is these the police were mostly protecting. I'm speaking of the Satmar Hassidim, fervent believers in God, and, also in a homeland, but only after the arrival of the Mashiach. [...] 35842 77 20_Re: Making Decisions0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Thu, 18 Apr 2002 12:54:15 EDT609_US-ASCII Dear Jon, I am so pleased to have teased you out of your lurking mode.

As for your point of using the experience of past decisions and consequences in making new decisions, I wholeheartedly agree. I did make this point explicitly, but I did not contradict it either.

I agree wholeheartedly as well with your point about occupying the lands of another as something that rots the soul. Unfortunately, I am unclear on whether by occupancy you mean legal title? historical hegemony? are we talking lot by lot? or national political control? The choice of definition has lots of impact [...] 35920 17 21_Re: Zionist Elections0_17_JackNusan@aol.com29_Thu, 18 Apr 2002 13:17:39 EDT415_US-ASCII Why the great losses? To what do you attribute them? B'shalom, Jack Nusan Porter

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 35938 84 28_Re: Yom Hypocracy on Habonet11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Thu, 18 Apr 2002 13:43:46 -0400303_us-ascii Ori Siegel wrote:

> At 08:21 AM 2002-04-18 -0400, Noam Stopak wrote: > >Odd that you don't have a similar problem with the first hand accounts of > >others on habonet. > > Oh now, Noam, you must know that's not true. After all, I've taken issue > with some of your statements, too. [...] 36023 40 28_Re: Yom Haatzaut in Montreal11_Greg Taylor25_gttaylor@worldnet.att.net31_Thu, 18 Apr 2002 13:56:12 -0400332_iso-8859-1 I'm sorry. I didn't realize that I had been appointed official Habonet feelings monitor. Apparently I'm supposed to be on this website full time to watch out in case anyone insults anyone else. Okay. I'll just say this one time, "Express your opinions freely, but please be respectful of each other when you do it." [...] 36064 246 56_Fw: [ShomerNet] (Personal) All time Top l0 Israeli films10_david baum23_rdbaum@netvision.net.il31_Thu, 18 Apr 2002 20:32:16 +0200659_windows-1255 Of special interest to Habonet members see item # 9

----- Original Message ----- From: Hillel Schenker To: ShomerNet@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2002 11:53 AM Subject: [ShomerNet] (Personal) All time Top l0 Israeli films



Enough of politics on Independence Day. And now for something completely different, as the Monty Python gang used to say. In honor of Yom Ha'atzamaut, and inspired by David Letterman's Top l0 countdown, here's my personal all-time top ten Israeli film favorites: #l0 - A tie, already I'm cramming in more than l0. a) Beyond the Walls (Ma'achorei Hasoragim) - Dir. Uri Barabash - The [...] 36311 223 21_Re: Zionist Elections13_moshe sheskin24_moshes7@netvision.net.il55_Thu, 18 Apr 2002 15:52:45 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time)641_iso-8859-1



-------Original Message-------

From: habonet@shamash.org Date: Thursday, April 18, 2002 11:39:18 AM To: HABONET (HABONET) Subject: Zionist Elections

Leo, it seems to me that there is a correlation between the Zionist Congress elections and the poll that appeared in the Ma'ariv newspaper re the political picture of Israel. It indicated a shift to the right. do you have any thoughts about this? Moshe A recent posting gave election results for Zionist Congress. I made a comparison with the figures for the previous one in 1997 and here are the results (which I am presenting without comment): [...] 36535 69 18_Re: Yonah Avrushmi12_Doug Greener25_ddwgreen@netvision.net.il31_Fri, 19 Apr 2002 00:06:27 +0300177_iso-8859-1 Just heard on the late TV news that Abrushmi has not been released, pending another examination of whether he has truly expressed remorse for his action.

Trudy 36605 20 17_A folk Dance Site11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org31_Thu, 18 Apr 2002 19:33:06 -0500472_us-ascii Some of you may enjoy this site. It is in Hebrew, but there is also an English version. Rozzie

http://www.dancehall.co.il/



------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 36626 56 37_Books, Guide to Arab-Israeli Conflict11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org31_Thu, 18 Apr 2002 19:48:11 -0500629_us-ascii FROM: CAMERA (Committee for Accuracy in Middle East Reporting in America)

"Myths and Facts: A Guide to the Arab-Israeli Conflict," formerly published by AIPAC, has recently been updated and published by the American-Israeli Cooperative Enterprise. Edited by Mitchell Bard, AICE's executive director, the latest "Myths and Facts" contains new chapters on the "al-Aksa Intifada," settlements and the media. It also provides updated information on the peace process, U.S. Middle East policy, and more. "Myths and Facts" can be viewed on-line at AICE's website http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/myths/mftoc.html. [...] 36683 29 25_AJC website and petitions11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org31_Thu, 18 Apr 2002 20:11:49 -0500658_us-ascii ---------- > Hello- > > Kindly take a moment to visit the AJC website, if you have not already

>done so, and to sign petitions that include condemnation of extremists who

incite anti-Semitism and violence against Jews. > > The AJC website address is: http://www.ajcadvocacy.net/ > > > Thanks, Rozzie >



------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 36713 22 17_Zionist Elections9_Norm Kane19_normk@earthlink.net31_Thu, 18 Apr 2002 18:49:52 -0700568_us-ascii Does anyone else think that 1881 votes for LZA and Na'amat is disappointing. We couldn't even manage 2,000 votes. Are there so few members in these two groups or was the get out the vote campaign ineffectual?



Norm Kane

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 36736 30 21_Re: Zionist Elections13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Thu, 18 Apr 2002 22:09:47 -0400472_us-ascii Or did people read the "platform" referring to past greats of the movement but not to specifics on contemporary issues and not think it stood for what they were looking for? Judy Gelman



Norm Kane wrote:

> Does anyone else think that 1881 votes for LZA and Na'amat is > disappointing. We couldn't even manage 2,000 votes. Are there so few > members in these two groups or was the get out the vote campaign > ineffectual? > > Norm Kane > [...] 36767 30 21_RE: Zionist Elections12_Dave Edelman18_dedelman@iname.com31_Thu, 18 Apr 2002 22:24:34 -0400344_us-ascii Judy,

You got it in one. I personally felt as if LZA was so sure of my vote that they didn't need to exert any effort.

Doc

Or did people read the "platform" referring to past greats of the movement but not to specifics on contemporary issues and not think it stood for what they were looking for? Judy Gelman [...] 36798 40 21_RE: Zionist Elections11_Batel Libes25_batel_libes@earthlink.net31_Thu, 18 Apr 2002 19:33:36 -0700399_us-ascii Time for changing of the guard?

-----Original Message----- From: owner-habonet@shamash.org [mailto:owner-habonet@shamash.org]On Behalf Of Dave Edelman Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 7:25 PM To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: RE: Zionist Elections

Judy,

You got it in one. I personally felt as if LZA was so sure of my vote that they didn't need to exert any effort. [...] 36839 2072 53_Fw: Israel Update - #39 - 54 Ways you can help Israel8_J Gordon20_mountain@neworld.net31_Thu, 18 Apr 2002 20:44:38 -0700406_Windows-1252 54 Ways You Can Help Israel









society & work jewish issues • jewish society • israel diary • middle east • media objectivity • among the nations • jerusalem • holocaust



family dating spirituality jewish literacy holocaust studies ask the rabbi weekly torah portion holidays wall camera tape store programs in israel about aish by email [...] 38912 178 21_Anti-Israeli Petition0_20_Barrygrushkin@cs.com29_Fri, 19 Apr 2002 01:33:17 EDT397_US-ASCII entov@math.technion.ac.il

Dear friends:

An anti-Israeli petition calling for a European boycott of research and cultural links with Israel has been circulated recently in numerous European universities. Its text can be found at the very end of this message. According to a recent update in Jerusalem Post the anti-Israeli petition already carries about 300 signatures. [...] 39091 101 28_Re: Yom Hypocracy on Habonet10_Ori Siegel17_oris@interlog.com31_Fri, 19 Apr 2002 03:02:16 -0400334_us-ascii At 01:43 PM 2002-04-18 -0400, Noam Stopak wrote: >When you question the first and second hand accounts of those with >whom you happen to agree, then perhaps we will have evidence that >you are actually concerned with confirming facts rather than looking >for justifications for denigrating those with whom you disagree. [...] 39193 135 17_Tzelem Ba-Heichal12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Fri, 19 Apr 2002 13:29:05 +0200562_us-ascii Haverim/ot It bothers me that Habonet has become the out-file for many people posting forwards to the list (I know of at least one who is not now nor has ever been a member of the movement .) Worse, much of the material is incredibly long, and worse yet, in my eyes the content is foreign to the values of Habonim. Since in traditional Jewish parlance it qualifies as a Tzelem Ba-Heichal (Desecration - literally, to introduce an idol into the Temple.) The rationale of the senders is that it is service, a way of informing our readers. Forgive me [...] 39329 981 24_Fw: What You Can Do List7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Fri, 19 Apr 2002 09:16:23 +0300456_windows-1255 Updated Andi and David What You Can Do ListI finally read this letter sent to us by my husband's cousin who lives in Ramat Beth Shemesh. It is a fantastic source of information, ideas, email and web addresses, which now make it so much easier for us to help Israeli public relations. I hope it helps some of you to focus on what you can do for Israel at this trying time. The email addresses are especially valuable. shabat shalom, pearl [...] 40311 26 45_Fw: Arab website to boycott various companies7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Fri, 19 Apr 2002 09:21:23 +0300638_windows-1255 FW: Arab website to boycott various companies

Apparently this is an Arab web-site calling for all Arabs to boycott the companies that support Israel. She suggests that we purposely buy from these companies.

R Wolff http://www.inminds.com/boycott-israel.htm

Cindy Mizrahi



------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 40338 552 46_[Fwd: A cancelled order to an Israeli company]16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Fri, 19 Apr 2002 08:05:30 -040017_us-ascii

40891 49 13_Make me wiser12_Stan Goldman17_stan@zahav.net.il31_Fri, 19 Apr 2002 17:05:47 +0200198_windows-1255 The recent posting to Habonet make me feel that the " old timers " on the list are laughing at us " less informed " But how do I know when to take seriously warnings about " VIRUS ' ??? 40941 38 17_Re: Make me wiser11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Fri, 19 Apr 2002 10:23:46 -0400341_us-ascii Stan Goldman wrote:

> The recent posting to Habonet make me feel that the " old timers " on the list are laughing at us " less informed "But how do I know when to take seriously warnings about " VIRUS ' ???

Hi Stan,

I don't believe anyone is laughing, though many of us have seen this movie several times. [...] 40980 25 39_re:Further on Yom Haatzmaut in Montreal11_Roslyn Lang20_langr@georgetown.edu31_Fri, 19 Apr 2002 11:41:48 -0400446_us-ascii Actually, the Satmar were also at the Washington, D. C. event, outside the main area. They were in a group of about 20 or so, a mixture of Chasidic men and Palestinian women. The first thing we noticed after the black hats were the Palestinian flags the Satmar were holding up. I can understand them not wanting a Jewish state until the Moshiach arrives, but then why support one for the Palestinians? It seemed very strange to me. [...] 41006 93 17_Re: Make me wiser0_18_Brianscoop@aol.com29_Fri, 19 Apr 2002 11:07:11 EDT363_US-ASCII Stan asks: > But how do I know when to take seriously warnings about " VIRUS ' ???

Stan, I'm sorry if I gave the impression that I was laughing. Not at all. Like a number of people on this list, I am in the computer business for many years and I will tell you that you should take viruses VERY seriously (but NOT mass-mailed virus warnings). [...] 41100 55 21_Re: Tzelem Ba-Heichal13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Fri, 19 Apr 2002 11:16:47 -0400376_us-ascii Dear Chevreh,

While I am not nearly as poetic as Amnon, I had a similar reaction to the Aish posting.

At first I looked down it with eagerness-"-Wow! 54 ways to help Israel. Maybe I can sent it to my congregation to continue my daily task of raising their consciousness on Israel and spurring them to action." Then I started to look done the list. [...] 41156 71 10_Anti viris4_Meir21_meir_h@maccabi.org.il31_Fri, 19 Apr 2002 20:17:42 +0200472_iso-8859-1 I use e-trust from computer associates. It found and took care of a virus that Norton missed. It also sends me DAILY updates.

http://www.my-etrust.com

Meir ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------- There are a number of cash for reading e-mails out lately. If you would like to look at some of them mailto:meir_h@maccabi.org.il?subject="Cashread" and tell me how many programs you want to look at. [...] 41228 28 16_Washington Rally20_Naomi Goldberg Honor18_naomijgh@yahoo.com37_Fri, 19 Apr 2002 11:16:12 -0700 (PDT)327_us-ascii While Satmar and others may hold opinions that differ from ours, I was glad to see that the Orthodox community and some Hasidic groups were out there with the rest of us on Monday. It's hard to say that this is what the 'Jewish community' wants/feels/thinks when parts of that community are conspicuously absent. [...] 41257 63 13_Clarification12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Fri, 19 Apr 2002 21:45:47 +0200296_us-ascii Haverot/im I received an email message off-line which told me that I'd apparently left out a link in my thinking in the recent pieces I had written after our visit to Prague and to Terezin. I hope that the author doesn't mind my recirculating his letter to me.

> Dear Amnon, [...] 41321 223 61_=?iso-8859-1?B?4fLw6envOiBZb20gSGFhdHptYXV0IGluIE1vbnRyZWFs?=8_ericmoli25_ericmoli@netvision.net.il31_Fri, 19 Apr 2002 23:04:11 +0200630_iso-8859-1 Dear Judy,

I really enjoyed reading your letter, your intelligent comments to "Reb" Shloime and your descriptive commentary of Jewry and it's diversities nature. Things have changed so drastically since I was young and innocent and growing up in Habonim. Our Jewish traditions and values were always on the forefront, but, without religious doctrine, which suited us fine. What has happened in these past 50 years that Religion has taken such a strong stand (ref: the voting results in the USA Zionist election and the religious content in letters? Even, here in Israel there are many who have become ultra [...] 41545 228 66_Re: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=E1=F2=F0=E9=E9=EF?=: Yom Haatzmaut in Montreal13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Fri, 19 Apr 2002 16:12:54 -0400601_us-ascii Thank you for such a nice note! Shabbat shalom, Judy

ericmoli wrote:

> Dear Judy, > > I really enjoyed reading your letter, your intelligent comments to "Reb" > Shloime and your descriptive commentary of Jewry and it's diversities > nature. Things have changed so drastically since I was young and innocent > and growing up in Habonim. Our Jewish traditions and values were always on > the forefront, but, without religious doctrine, which suited us fine. What > has happened in these past 50 years that Religion has taken such a strong > stand (ref: the voting results in [...] 41774 19 66_Re: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=E1=F2=F0=E9=E9=EF?=: Yom Haatzmaut in Montreal13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Fri, 19 Apr 2002 16:19:53 -0400465_us-ascii Sorry! I thought that was only going to Molly. Also sorry for not deleting all repeated emails at the bottom. Shabbat shalom, Judy

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 41794 38 73_=?iso-8859-1?B?4fLw6envOiDh8vDp6e86IFlvbSBIYWF0em1hdXQgaW4gTW9udHJlYWw=?=8_ericmoli25_ericmoli@netvision.net.il31_Sat, 20 Apr 2002 01:42:29 +0200409_iso-8859-1 Dear Judy,

Received your note, but, was hoping for a more detailed response to my letter, especally to my question about the role of Religious fevor in this day and age.

Have a nice week, Mollie Marx ----- Original Message ----- From: Judith Gelman To: Sent: Friday, April 19, 2002 10:19 PM Subject: Re: áňđééď: Yom Haatzmaut in Montreal [...] 41833 25 23_FWD: Israeli Dance site11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org31_Fri, 19 Apr 2002 20:45:49 -0500609_us-ascii I found this one too. They also have song (transliteration and translation) pages. Shabbat Shalom, Rozzie

http://www.israelidanceaustralia.com/



------------------------------------------------- This message was sent to all Hebrew Judaica Staff.



------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 41859 17 94_=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=E1=F2=F0=E9=E9=EF:=20Yom=20Haatzmaut=20in=20?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Montreal?=0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Fri, 19 Apr 2002 22:44:14 EDT359_US-ASCII I thank you, too. Dennis

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 41877 53 116_=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=E1=F2=F0=E9=E9=EF:=20=E1=F2=F0=E9=E9=EF:=20?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Yom=20Haatzmaut=20in=20Montreal?=0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Fri, 19 Apr 2002 23:17:45 EDT590_US-ASCII Dear Mollie, I hope that neither you or Judy mind if I chip in here.

I have no data, but it seems to me that the number of Orthodox Jews has been growing over the past maybe 15 to 20 years. The "New Orthodox" movement and Lubavitch movement have both been more welcoming/inviting and have reached out to those "looking". I think too that orthodoxy has always offered an ordered and ritual filled life in a community of belonging. The structure of Orthodox Jewish life releases energy for contemplation and spirituality that the more liberal forms of our religion don't [...] 41931 148 46_On Progressive and Orthodox Jewish communities13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Sat, 20 Apr 2002 00:16:22 -0400613_iso-8859-1 Dear Chevreh,

Since Mollie and Dennis ask for musings on religion and esp on Orthodox Judaism, I am posting an essay I wrote last month after my my Reconstructionist shul spent a shabbat in Boro Park, the neighborhood with the largest concentration of hasidim in the US and maybe in the world. At first glance, our community and theirs seems to share almost nothing in common except the broad designation of ourselves as "Jewish". THe 55 people on the trip from my community are all college educated professional, mostly marrying late, if at all, raising small families, working and living [...] 42080 137 31_Fw: Summary of historical facts4_Meir21_meir_h@maccabi.org.il31_Sat, 20 Apr 2002 09:47:55 +02001043_Windows-1252 I thought this was a nice summary. Thought I would add it in.

Meir ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------- There are a number of cash for reading e-mails out lately. If you would like to look at some of them mailto:meir_h@maccabi.org.il?subject="Cashread" and tell me how many programs you want to look at.

----- Original Message ----- From: "Miriam Hen" To: "Zvi" ; "Dov" ; "Warren" ; "Vladimir Yarosh" ; "Vlad Lidis" ; "Mara Tahal" ; "michael" ; "Victor Ash" ; "Sergei" ; "Ruby" ; "Noam Ravid" ; "Renata" ; "Felix" ; "?. ????" ; "Samuel Ettinger" ; "Moishe" ; "Tanya" ; "Moti [...] 42218 57 36_Re:Orthodoxy and an answer to Dennis0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Sat, 20 Apr 2002 08:26:20 EDT614_US-ASCII In a message dated 4/19/2002 8:18:27 PM Pacific Daylight Time, DLerner569@aol.com writes:

> However, I do credit > it with saving Judaism in the 20th Century. > Whoa! Dennis! Quite a burden to put on Orthodoxy! I have to disagree with this concept- but I think I understand from where you are coming. What about the intellectual Jewish movements which sought to find answers to Judaism's life-struggle to survive change -answers such as Reform and Conservative which grew out of the need to "adjust" Judaism for all of it'as varied reasons ( Anti-Semitism, the rise of "Nationalism" a la Hans [...] 42276 63 37_Re: Orthodoxy and an answer to Dennis0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Sat, 20 Apr 2002 09:52:08 EDT337_US-ASCII In a message dated 4/20/2002 8:27:08 AM Eastern Daylight Time, LiberHawke@aol.com writes:



> The one thing that seems to keep us going like the Energizer Bunny is our > stubborn attachment to things "tanach-like" and out desire to tell the rest > of the world, no matter what is happening, to "Go to Hell"- > [...] 42340 40 9_Chadashot12_Trilby Smith18_trilbyds@yahoo.com37_Sat, 20 Apr 2002 07:09:53 -0700 (PDT)424_us-ascii Dear Habonetters,

We are beginning to put together the pieces for the upcoming issue of Chadashot - the newsletter of the Habonim Dror Foundation. As many of you know, I'm soliciting articles on the theme of "50 Years of Workshop, A Retrospective." I am particularly in need of articles from those of you who were on Workshop in the 70's and 80's. Just a few hundred words is all I need, by April 30th. [...] 42381 48 18_Religion or people4_Meir21_meir_h@maccabi.org.il31_Sat, 20 Apr 2002 17:15:26 +0200475_iso-8859-1 Hi I've been lurking on most of the issues here. This last post jarred me into responding.

1. > we have been chosen (self selected or whatever)

Here I would definitely put in the choosing to be that of self chosing. I think that this is more or less true of EVERY people. So from my point of view not only is the Jewish people the chosen people, but so are the Japanese, the Phillipines, the citizens of the U.S. and every other people as well. [...] 42430 55 22_Re: Religion or people0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Sat, 20 Apr 2002 10:54:35 EDT479_US-ASCII In a message dated 4/20/2002 10:15:13 AM Eastern Daylight Time, meir_h@maccabi.org.il writes:



> Would the world accept the idea of not worshipping idols whether they were > statues, or values (like money) this would NOT make them Jewish. > > Because Jewishness is NOT mainly a belief but a FAMILY (a large family > called a nation). Within this nation are many different beliefs. As is > written "There are many pathways to the "place" (truth ?)". > [...] 42486 21 26_Jordan Israel Peace treaty0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Sat, 20 Apr 2002 11:01:58 EDT550_US-ASCII What do we know about the negotiation of this treaty?

Why was the boundary set at the Jordan rather than permitting reincorporation of the captured territories into Jordan? At who's instigation?

Dennis

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 42508 78 35_Re: Fw: Summary of historical facts0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com29_Sat, 20 Apr 2002 11:02:16 EDT331_US-ASCII I find it interesting that a list which claims to be, "Facts about today's struggle in Israel," is entirely historic, in fact in some cases prehistoric. Some of these statements are indeed facts. Others are not at all facts. Some I know nothing about but since I know some are untrue I cannot trust these to be true. [...] 42587 92 19_Fwd: Not In My Name12_David Fleiss20_dfleiss@pipeline.com31_Sat, 20 Apr 2002 11:31:34 -0400583_us-ascii I received the following information from Not In My Name (www.nimn.org).

I have heard of Women in Black, but does anybody know anything about Jews for Peace in Palestine and Israel (JPPI)?

David

>JOIN THE GROWING MOVEMENT OF AMERICAN JEWS WHO SAY: >NO PEACE WITHOUT AN END TO OCCUPATION! >AIPAC IS NOT OUR MOUTHPIECE! > >More than ever, this is the time for us to raise our voices and show that >AIPAC does not speak for us. Nor does Ariel Sharon represent the majority >of American Jews who wish to see a just peace in Israel and Palestine. > >As [...] 42680 64 10_No Subject0_23_rebshloime@netscape.net31_Sat, 20 Apr 2002 11:55:28 -0400362_iso-8859-1 Shalom,

I would appreciate it if certain individuals stopped addressing me or referring to through the use of a combination quotation marks, plus part of my email address. Whatever your reasons, stop it. I'd also like to suggest that no one on Habonet be referred to by any part of his or her email address, unless the person requests it. [...] 42745 102 14_RE: No Subject11_Batel Libes25_batel_libes@earthlink.net31_Sat, 20 Apr 2002 09:11:41 -0700283_iso-8859-1 Most of the Israelis I know who live in S.F. did not participate in any of the local rallies for the same reason. I must say, however, that for the same reason most also did not go to any of the other protests-such as those held by Women in Black and similar groups. [...] 42848 110 18_RE: Not In My Name11_Batel Libes25_batel_libes@earthlink.net31_Sat, 20 Apr 2002 09:14:24 -0700384_US-ASCII This block is getting strong support in the S.F. Bay area. In fact, many of the "Free Palestine" bumper stickers are being driven around by Jews, including founding members of Tikun. One of these drivers even had the audacity to compare the violence in the area to the Holocaust, stating that the Dir Yassin massacre is on the same level. It made me sick to my stomach. [...] 42959 81 22_Re: Religion or people4_Meir21_meir_h@maccabi.org.il31_Sat, 20 Apr 2002 20:44:58 +0200441_iso-8859-1 > > Would the world accept the idea of not worshipping idols whether they were > > statues, or values (like money) this would NOT make them Jewish. > > > > Because Jewishness is NOT mainly a belief but a FAMILY (a large family > > called a nation). Within this nation are many different beliefs. As is > > written "There are many pathways to the "place" (truth ?)". > > > > Meir, > Please expand on these paragraphs > Dennis [...] 43041 35 14_Re: No Subject10_Ori Siegel17_oris@interlog.com31_Sat, 20 Apr 2002 13:49:56 -0400464_us-ascii At 11:55 AM 2002-04-20 -0400, rebshloime@netscape.net wrote: >Shalom, > > I would appreciate it if certain individuals stopped addressing me >or referring to through the use of a combination quotation marks, plus >part of my email address. Whatever your reasons, stop it.

You are absolutely correct and I apologize to you for this. It is rude and demeaning. I give you my word that I will never address you or any others in this manner again. [...] 43077 55 16_Means of Address21_Tsippi (Frances) Rudy16_tsippi@attbi.com31_Sat, 20 Apr 2002 11:06:49 -0700376_us-ascii

Sol wrote:

>I would appreciate it if certain individuals stopped addressing me or >referring to through the use of a combination quotation marks, plus part >of my email address. Whatever your reasons, stop it. I'd also like to >suggest that no one on Habonet be referred to by any part of his or her >email address, unless the person requests it. [...] 43133 73 13_Give Me Fifty12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Sat, 20 Apr 2002 21:13:36 +0200545_us-ascii Dennis, I wish I could dash off a facile nostrum to address Steve's question to you. It was Steve wasn't it? Failing that, I wish I had the eloquence you impute to me - I write that advisedly. In Emerson's definition of eloquence - 'the eloquent man is he who is no beautiful speaker, but who is inwardly and desperately drunk with a certain belief.' But alas, I'm sober - call me a designated driver. And even that sounds self important. If formulations or even a few telling words fail me it's like so so many others I belong to [...] 43207 44 22_Re: Religion or people0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Sat, 20 Apr 2002 14:53:59 EDT281_US-ASCII In a message dated 4/20/2002 10:44:36 AM Pacific Daylight Time, meir_h@maccabi.org.il writes:



> the religious expression of Habonim was "chalutziut". > >

I thought the religious exoression of Habonim was "hagshama atzmit" which led to chalutziut..sue 43252 32 22_Re: Religion or people4_Meir21_meir_h@maccabi.org.il31_Sat, 20 Apr 2002 22:01:22 +0200486_iso-8859-1

Thank you Sue

> I thought the religious exoression of Habonim was "hagshama atzmit" which led > to chalutziut..sue

That is another way of putting it.

Meir ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------- There are a number of cash for reading e-mails out lately. If you would like to look at some of them mailto:meir_h@maccabi.org.il?subject="Cashread" and tell me how many programs you want to look at. [...] 43285 105 11_interesting13_moshe sheskin24_moshes7@netvision.net.il55_Sat, 20 Apr 2002 17:40:59 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time)173_iso-8859-1 I recommend this article. It's very interesting..

http://www.nationalpost.com/commentary/columnists/story html?f=/stories/20020418/675058.html

Moshe 43391 84 17_Re: Give Me Fifty0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Sat, 20 Apr 2002 18:07:41 EDT590_US-ASCII Amnon, Can we talk about Jordan. I read the Israel Jordan peace treaty. In setting the international border it says that so doing in no way prejudices the decisions with respect to the occupied territories.

I have trouble understanding. Did we refuse to give the territories back to Jordan? That doesn't jibe with "land for peace". Did they refuse to take it back? Was there a Palestinian lobby to keep Jordan from taking it back? If Jordan had taken the territories back and given the Palestinians their own state it seems to me things would have been much better. My [...] 43476 62 15_Re: interesting0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Sat, 20 Apr 2002 18:18:04 EDT311_US-ASCII In a message dated 4/20/2002 5:42:34 PM Eastern Daylight Time, moshes7@netvision.net.il writes:



> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.nationalpost.com/commentary/columnists/story.html?f=/stories/20020418/675058.html > > >

At last. Another poor demented fool like me. Dennis 43539 214 40_Fw: our gedaliah, written by his parents7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Sun, 21 Apr 2002 01:02:48 +0300597_Windows-1252

----- Original Message ----- From: Simcha Mellick > > 5 Iyar, 5762 > Israel Independence day (april 17) > > To the family of Israel, our beloved Nation of Israel. > > We are the parents of a wonderful son, Gedalyahu Hillel Mellick (Hy"d), a > soldier of the Golani Infantry. Gedaliah was the Golani deputy commander's > radio man in the advance task force, who fought these past few weeks in > Ramallah and in Jenin. His task was considered one of the dangerous jobs in > the Israel army. Gedaliah knew it, and bravely accepted the challenge. [...] 43754 21 22_Re: Religion or people0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Sat, 20 Apr 2002 19:01:26 EDT450_US-ASCII I am not sure that it is the same- You can have "chalutziut" without "Hagshama Atzmit"- but that puts one in the category of "martyrdom"-- and proseltyzing...Self-fulfillment within the guidelines of Judaism, and Zionism, and socialist Zionism in particular, was what was drummed into my every cell for so many years by my madrichim, chinuch programs, and "life" in general....Again- maybe Amnon can give good sicha on this one...susie [...] 43776 39 22_RE: Names/ To: Richard0_23_rebshloime@netscape.net31_Sat, 20 Apr 2002 20:56:43 -0400392_iso-8859-1 Thanks for your question, Richard. My name is Shloime Perel. In Habonim, my first name was Sol, but I've gone back to my original Yiddish name. At the time, you see, relatives tried to force me to use an English name, for the sake of making me a better American, although I never became a U.S. citizen. At that time, there was no dual Canadian/U.S. citizenship. All the best, [...] 43816 87 22_Re: Religion or people0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Sun, 21 Apr 2002 00:54:41 EDT589_US-ASCII In a message dated 4/20/2002 10:15:13 AM Eastern Daylight Time, meir_h@maccabi.org.il writes:



> There were TWO beginning tenants of Judaism by Abraham. The FIRST and > the one that I adhere to today is the stopping of worshipping idols. This > is born out by Mordechai who was called Ha Yehudi even though he was from > the tribe of Benjamin (making Mordechai the FIRST Yehudi because of > belief), > because he DIDN'T bow down to an idol. > > The second tenant of Judaism (monotheism) came about according to the > legend > that Abraham pondered the question [...] 43904 415 21_Article by Amira Hass0_13_SC523@aol.com29_Sun, 21 Apr 2002 01:08:32 EDT592_ISO-8859-1 Chevreh,

I found this article profoundly disturbing (by Amira Hass of Ha'aretz, forwarded by Aliya):

Saturday, April 20, 2002 Iyyar 8, 5762 Israel Time: 09:39 (GMT+3) `What kind of war is this?' It is still impossible to know how many people are buried under the ruins in the Jenin refugee camp, where the smell of decomposing bodies mingles with the stench of garbage and the scent of geraniums and mint. By Amira Hass (Photo: AP ) Leaning on a cane, the man stood on a huge pile of ruins: a jumble of crushed concrete, twisted iron rods, shreds of mattresses, [...] 44320 101 22_Re: Religion or people4_Meir21_meir_h@maccabi.org.il31_Sun, 21 Apr 2002 08:33:39 +0200360_iso-8859-1 Dear Dennis.

There are many many more tenants than just these three.

Of course I agree with you that no human sacrifices is central to Judaism. but then again are the 10 commandments which includes this in Thou shalt not murder. However capital punishment IS part of our tradition, although I for one do not adhere to that today. [...] 44422 106 22_Re: Religion or people0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Sun, 21 Apr 2002 01:58:53 EDT574_US-ASCII In a message dated 4/20/2002 1:44:59 PM Eastern Daylight Time, meir_h@maccabi.org.il writes:



> Would you > maintain that only one way of thought is the "genuinely" Jewish thought ? >

Yes. In my view to be a Jew one must be engaged in the search for what one can do to divine and act in accordance with God's purpose and design for Creation. This is the core of mans relation to God, and from the insight gained from this search, the Jew's and eventually (may it be in our time) all men's relation to one another. The mechanism, focus and [...] 44529 50 22_Re: Religion or people0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Sun, 21 Apr 2002 02:05:54 EDT637_US-ASCII In a message dated 4/21/2002 1:33:48 AM Eastern Daylight Time, meir_h@maccabi.org.il writes:



> However capital punishment IS part of our tradition

You raise a very interesting point. The contradiction is explained I think between the prohibition to the individual and the acts of the people to protect and defend itself. I think this illustrates the conundrum facing a Jewish state. I have several times raised the question of whether such a state can operate on the principals and values of Judaism, in a world composed of states which do not. I interpret there to be a distinction between the rules [...] 44580 31 25_Re: Article by Amira Hass0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Sun, 21 Apr 2002 02:16:27 EDT557_US-ASCII Despite myself, my initial reaction is to feel hatred for those who hate me, and to yearn for their mishap and destruction. My second reaction is to search for the reason I have given them to hate me, and then to correct it. Sometimes they cease to hate me and I no longer hate them. Sometimes they have other reasons or non-reasons (prejudices and conclusions) I cannot change. Then I stop hating them because they are more to be pitied. If they act to hurt me other than physically, I depend on my good reputation and treatment of others to [...] 44612 122 35_A voice of Workshop 51 (WorkShant1)11_Jared Matas22_jaredmatas@hotmail.com31_Sun, 21 Apr 2002 00:15:27 -0700603_- Shalom Chevrei,

I think you will be interested in this letter I am forwarding, written by a current Workshopper with the goal of encouraging potential Workshop 52 participants.

b'shalom, Jared Matas (Workshop 43, Rakaz for Workshop 51)



======= I am writing this as a participant of Workshop 51 for those who want to go on workshop next year, and for the rest of Habonim Dror. I am writing to let you know there is a strong group of Americans, British and Canadian Habonim Dror members that are still in Israel, and are not leaving until the program is completed. For [...] 44735 65 50_Re: On Progressive and Orthodox Jewish communities0_13_SC523@aol.com29_Sun, 21 Apr 2002 03:30:48 EDT500_US-ASCII Judy,

I, for many years, but especially now living in New York, have often found myself being extremely upset at the Chassidic Orthodox -- for their exclusion of all liberal Judaism; for their lumping together of all Conservative, Reconstructionist, and Reform as "not religious" - a misnomer if ever I heard one; for their grandstanding in many ways since the late 70s when they began having a large public ceremony to erect a giant menorah in a public square at Chanuka, etc.. [...] 44801 22 22_Re: Religion or people0_16_Aborciah@aol.com29_Sun, 21 Apr 2002 04:12:11 EDT337_US-ASCII I was going to let it go the first time, because the messages are more important than the error; but after several have used the same word incorrectly, it's bursting out of me! "Tenants" are people who "rent and occupy the property of another." I'm pretty sure you meant "tenets," i.e., "beliefs or theories held as true." [...] 44824 87 70_Fw: Film Presentation of THE HUMAN SIDE OF TERROR: NYC, April 22, 20027_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Sun, 21 Apr 2002 09:13:25 +0300554_iso-8859-1 I hope this will be of interest to those of you who live in the New York area. It would be interesting to have your report to Habonet on this meeting. pearl

> Premiere Film Presentation of THE HUMAN SIDE OF TERROR: NYC, April 22, 2002 > > From: Israel Resource News Agency - media@actcom.co.il > > A timely and informative program you may wish to attend on Monday, April > 22nd, at 6pm, at the Civic Center Synagogue (located at 49 White Street > between Church and Broadway). > > The program, produced by the Center for Near East [...] 44912 551 84_Re: Article by Amira Hass and the Supreme Court session on burying the dead in Jenin7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Sun, 21 Apr 2002 11:34:27 +0300584_iso-8859-1 to read this article one would believe that we shot up and destroyed a peaceful campsite. There is no mention that the entire Jenin refugee camp was boobytrapped, and even today Arabs who return to the site are being injured by boobytraps that were not set off by the soldiers or the Arabs. The Arabs had booby-trapped every building, tree, basement, roof, manhole, doors, windows, street. Every square meter of the camp. It is known to the Arabs that we use other Arabs to knock on doors so that hopefully they will not boobytrap the doors. Stone barricades on roads [...] 45464 252 74_Fw: [RBS2] AN APPEAL TO WORLD SOCIETY (Elena Bonner, Andrew Sacharov wife)7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Sun, 21 Apr 2002 11:54:14 +0300608_windows-1255

Subject: [RBS2] AN APPEAL TO WORLD SOCIETY (Elena Bonner, Andrew Sacharov's wife)



> > > AN APPEAL TO WORLD SOCIETY > Elena Bonner > > On April 2, Donald Rumsfeld announced that Saddam Hussein had > instituted a $25,000 payment for suicide bombers. How should the civilized > world regard this gruesome form of terror and Saddam's peculiar subsidy for > it? > > We are familiar with murders committed by hired killers acting for the > mafia. These are horrible crimes, but the persons ordering the murders > try to remain anonymous in order to avoid arrest and trial. [...] 45717 58 25_Re: Article by Amira Hass7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Sun, 21 Apr 2002 13:12:22 +0300571_iso-8859-1 Dennis, I have always felt that hate is more damaging to the person that hates than to the object of hatred. I do not think people in Israel "hate" the Arabs. We are angry. Even my son Yossi, after two weeks of heavy fighting, said to me "mommy, do not denigrate the suffering of the Arabs. They live in very difficult conditions and they are suffering." This, after his cousin and friends were killed. We know they are suffering, but after receiving something like almost 4 billion dollars in aid, we can only blame their leaders for not distributing it [...] 45776 42 22_Penina-- clarification7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Sun, 21 Apr 2002 14:51:59 +0300335_windows-1255 I should have clarified in forwarding Penina's letter about G'dalya, that Penina was a madricha in Habonim, having set up a branch in Rochester, N.Y. Dov Liberman and Gene Alexander were her first chanichim, if memory does not betray me. Penina was also on the Machon L'madrichei Chutz L'Aretz. Many, many moons ago. pearl 45819 192 35_Re: Fw: Summary of historical facts0_19_abarland@execpc.com44_Sun, 21 Apr 2002 12:35:45 +0000 (US/Eastern)761_- What is the SOURCE of these "facts"?



> I thought this was a nice summary. > Thought I would add it in. > > Meir > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > There are a number of cash for reading e-mails out lately. > If you would like to look at some of them > mailto:meir_h@maccabi.org.il?subject="Cashread" and tell me how many > programs you want to look at. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Miriam Hen" > To: "Zvi" ; "Dov" ; "Warren" > ; "Vladimir Yarosh" ; "Vlad Lidis" > ; "Mara Tahal" ; "michael" > ; "Victor [...] 46012 27 50_Re: On Progressive and Orthodox Jewish communities13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Sun, 21 Apr 2002 08:53:06 -0400395_us-ascii Dear Aliya,

Thank you for sharing that story. I must say that I have a hard time imagining Chasidim spending shabbas at MB!

I too have had my share of very negative and insulting interactions with Orthodox individuals and, when trying to convert my adopted children, with Orthodox institutions. That is why the Boro Park trip was all the sweeter and more surprising. [...] 46040 17 22_Re: Religion or people0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Sun, 21 Apr 2002 09:25:01 EDT366_US-ASCII Thank you. Tenets it is. Dennis

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 46058 26 4_Hate0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Sun, 21 Apr 2002 09:43:28 EDT396_US-ASCII

Pearl, I understand your response to my posting. Perhaps I should have said "impulse to hate" because before our higher understanding and compassion can come into effect there is a visceral response of striking back at that which strikes at us. This response occurs at the mid-brain level and isn't the product of reason and isn't voluntary. Its focus is self preservation. [...] 46085 59 10_God Forbid0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Sun, 21 Apr 2002 10:28:25 EDT575_US-ASCII I have a life-long proclivity for stating a context before expressing an idea or an opinion. I believe, after thinking about it, that I do so because I believe that context is so important to understanding.

Context. It is my nature to strive to understand the operation and processes of the reality I exist in. This leads me to try to see things from various perspectives, not my own. I emerge from this process with what I hope is a larger, more complete picture than I would otherwise have. Based on my experience in explaining to others how I process [...] 46145 21 35_Re: Fw: Summary of historical facts10_Ori Siegel17_oris@interlog.com31_Sun, 21 Apr 2002 10:28:05 -0400513_us-ascii At 12:35 PM 2002-04-21 +0000, abarland@execpc.com wrote: >What is the SOURCE of these "facts"?

Not sure, but I think we can rule out the PA and the Arab League.

Ori

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 46167 48 6_Chosen12_Stan Goldman17_stan@zahav.net.il31_Sun, 21 Apr 2002 17:50:24 +0200173_windows-1255 Being chosen can be a pain. It is often being PICKED to do a unpleasent job. Who needs it? Being chosen doesn't make you better. It makes your work load greater 46216 16 10_Re: Chosen0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Sun, 21 Apr 2002 12:27:27 EDT384_US-ASCII It is doing that hard work that makes you better.

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 46233 30 35_Re: Fw: Summary of historical facts11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org31_Sun, 21 Apr 2002 12:09:15 -0500398_us-ascii Cute, but not helpful.

---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: Ori Siegel Reply-To: habonet@shamash.org Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2002 10:28:05 -0400

>At 12:35 PM 2002-04-21 +0000, abarland@execpc.com wrote: >>What is the SOURCE of these "facts"? > >Not sure, but I think we can rule out the PA and the Arab League. > >Ori > > > [...] 46264 243 27_The Best and the Brightest?12_Doug Greener25_ddwgreen@netvision.net.il31_Sun, 21 Apr 2002 20:31:43 +0300576_windows-1255 >I was very disturbed by the following e-mail message and felt that >thoughtful responses were necessary. I am sharing with friends to engage >you in response. > >Cheri and Rivka

>Dear Friends: > > I have long been disturbed by CNN's coverage of the Middle East. I no >longer watch CNN. I have found Fox News to be the most evenhanded of all >the news networks. The following email forwarded to me speaks for itself. > >Subject: Disturbing info from Tel Aviv meeting with > CNN's Andrea Koppel > Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 19:53:52 -0700 > From: "David J [...] 46508 28 31_Re: The Best and the Brightest?13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Sun, 21 Apr 2002 14:12:14 -0400559_us-ascii Dear Doug,

I have no special love of Andrea Koppel, who I probably wouldn't even recognize on CNN without a tag identifying her. However, this email's tone really bothered me. Even if this is a verbatim report, which I doubt, most reporters learn on the job. Who had expertise on Afghanistan when the war started? Further, Andrea Koppel , daughter of Ted, is not the only person, including people who love Israel dearly, who thinks that Israel is in mortal jeopardy. Does eliminating the messenger ensure that prophecy doesn't come true? [...] 46537 249 111_=?iso-8859-1?B?4fLw6envOiBPbiBQcm9ncmVzc2l2ZSBhbmQgT3J0aG9kb3ggSmU=?= =?iso-8859-1?B?d2lzaCBjb21tdW5pdGllcw==?=8_ericmoli25_ericmoli@netvision.net.il31_Sun, 21 Apr 2002 21:12:02 +0200660_iso-8859-1 Dear Judith,

I so appreciate receivng your letter. Unfortunately, I have very little free time, at present. I shall reply as soon as possible.

Shalom Rav, Mollie ----- Original Message ----- From: Judith Gelman To: Sent: Saturday, April 20, 2002 6:16 AM Subject: On Progressive and Orthodox Jewish communities



> Dear Chevreh, > > Since Mollie and Dennis ask for musings on religion and esp on Orthodox Judaism, > I am posting an essay I wrote last month after my my Reconstructionist shul spent > a shabbat in Boro Park, the neighborhood with the largest concentration of > [...] 46787 88 103_=?iso-8859-1?B?4fLw6envOiDh8vDp6e86IOHy8Onp7zogWW9tIEhhYXR6bWF1dCBpbiBN?= =?iso-8859-1?B?b250cmVhbA==?=8_ericmoli25_ericmoli@netvision.net.il31_Sun, 21 Apr 2002 21:09:58 +0200609_iso-8859-1 Dear Dennis,

I so appreciate getting your letter. Unfortunately, I have very little free time at present. I shall reply as soon as possible.

Shalom Rav, Mollie ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, April 20, 2002 5:17 AM Subject: Re: áňđééď: áňđééď: Yom Haatzmaut in Montreal



> Dear Mollie, > I hope that neither you or Judy mind if I chip in here. > > I have no data, but it seems to me that the number of Orthodox Jews has been > growing over the past maybe 15 to 20 years. The "New Orthodox" movement [...] 46876 36 83_Re: Article by Amira Hass and the Supreme Court session on burying thedead in Jenin11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Sun, 21 Apr 2002 14:54:52 -0400329_us-ascii Skolnik wrote:

> ... > When > talking to people about Jenin, people can stress that the United States > bombed Afghanistan and killed tens of thousands of civilians in order not to > send in American soldiers to fight house to house. America protected her > soldiers without any consideration for civilians. [...] 46913 51 35_Re: Fw: Summary of historical facts0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com29_Sun, 21 Apr 2002 15:07:22 EDT370_US-ASCII In a message dated 4/21/02 10:55:22 AM Eastern Daylight Time, oris@interlog.com writes:



> At 12:35 PM 2002-04-21 +0000, abarland@execpc.com wrote: > >What is the SOURCE of these "facts"? > > Not sure, but I think we can rule out the PA and the Arab League. > > Ori >

Perhaps not, such disinformation is what we've come to expect from them. 46965 34 10_Re: Chosen7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Sun, 21 Apr 2002 20:04:00 +0300410_iso-8859-1 Dennis, reminds me of a sign I once saw on a rabbi's office wall: "God: give me hills to climb." l'hit, pearl p.s. Penina will be here this evening and I shall give her your message. She remembers you well. Even Mom says she remembers you!



----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, April 21, 2002 7:27 PM Subject: Re: Chosen [...] 47000 19 35_Re: Fw: Summary of historical facts10_Ori Siegel17_oris@interlog.com31_Sun, 21 Apr 2002 19:56:34 -0400439_us-ascii You're right, so delete.

At 12:09 PM 2002-04-21 -0500, Roz Barland wrote: >Cute, but not helpful.

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 47020 150 52_Recommended: "Mideast peace, one teaspoon at a time"0_23_rebshloime@netscape.net31_Sun, 21 Apr 2002 21:31:25 -0400702_iso-8859-1

>The Christian Science Monitor's electronic edition. > > > >_________________________________________________________________________ > I'm forwarding a very recent piece by Amos Oz for whoever will be interested.

Shoime

>http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0419/p11s01-coop.html > > >Headline: Mideast peace, one teaspoon at a time >Byline: Amos Oz >Date: 04/19/2002 >(ARAD, ISRAEL)What can an ordinary man do when he faces an enormous fire? He can try >to flee the flames, abandoning to their fate all those who either >cannot run or have nowhere to run. He can stand around and moan. He can >blame others. And he can also fill the teaspoon he holds in his hand >with [...] 47171 26 35_Re: Fw: Summary of hysterical facts11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Sun, 21 Apr 2002 21:31:58 -0400519_us-ascii



Ori Siegel wrote:

> You're right, so delete. > > At 12:09 PM 2002-04-21 -0500, Roz Barland wrote: > >Cute, but not helpful.

and you tell me to grow up :-)

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 47198 19 35_Re: Fw: Summary of hysterical facts10_Ori Siegel17_oris@interlog.com31_Sun, 21 Apr 2002 21:59:23 -0400437_us-ascii At 09:31 PM 2002-04-21 -0400, Noam Stopak wrote: >and you tell me to grow up :-)

Twice, so far.

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 47218 283 54_Fw: an account of the fighting, not massacre, in Jenin11_Sue Mackson16_susiem6@juno.com31_Sun, 21 Apr 2002 21:23:13 -0400446_- The following was forwarded to me from a resident of Jerusalem who grew up here (Poughkeepsie, NY) who found it posted on the Hashomer Hatzair list serve. I hope you will tolerate a posting from that site. It serves as ancillary to the postings from Pearl Skolnik.

Susie Mackson

..........................................................

Original message: from Moshe Chertoff, Kibbutz Shomrat, Western Galilee, Israel [...] 47502 45 6_chosen12_Stan Goldman17_stan@zahav.net.il31_Mon, 22 Apr 2002 10:40:38 +0200150_windows-1255 The misunderstanding of the concept of "chosennes , by our own people as well as others, has been the source of much pain for our people. 47548 129 37_Look What They've Done To My Song, Ma12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Mon, 22 Apr 2002 21:43:40 +0200579_us-ascii



Last Shabbat a double parsha (Aharei Mot - K'doshim) was read in synagogues around the world. I went to visit the Torah. She is the object of my affection, a love that Rivka, my wife shares with me. Although we have a picture of her at home, actually many copies for Shabatot when family and guests join our Kabbalat Shabbat, the flesh and blood beloved - the Torah - lives in a cupboard in the synagogue. In many synagogues of many denominations. Every week, when my beloved comes out of the closet briefly she enjoys hymns and praises and expects [...] 47678 18 56_Re: Recommended: "Mideast peace, one teaspoon at a time"0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Mon, 22 Apr 2002 15:13:36 EDT427_US-ASCII there are fires that no number of teaspoons will put out. not that one shouldn't try. Dennis

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 47697 58 82_Re: Article by Amira Hass and the Supreme Court session on buryingthedead in Jenin7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Sun, 21 Apr 2002 23:06:25 +0300599_iso-8859-1 Noam, shalom, I have read at least 2-3 times in various places that the Americans killed upwards of 50,000 civilians in Afghanistan. It seems like a very exaggerated figure, but might reflect large numbers of people killed. Admittedly I did not check official reports, but quoted figures I had seen in news reports. In this instance, I would be very happy to be proven wrong. My understanding is that the Americans did not endanger their soldiers as we did with close combat. We did not use artillery or planes which could have been used after giving sufficient warning to civilians [...] 47756 79 21_Sue Mackson's posting7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Tue, 23 Apr 2002 00:02:01 +0300547_windows-1255 Thank you for sending the letter to Habonet. I am debating whether to let my family see it. The pain is too raw I think. It was painful enough for me to read. Everything Mr.Chertoff wrote dovetailed with the hundreds of accounts we heard from my son and the soldiers, commanders and Chief of Staff General Mofaz who came to the Shiva. My son's description of the D9's and the fighting in the tanks were identical to the details in your letter. General Mofaz told us that he had fought in 4 wars and the fighting in Jenin was the [...] 47836 109 35_THE BOOBY-TRAPPED WHEELCHAIR, Jenin7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Tue, 23 Apr 2002 01:22:21 +0300593_iso-8859-1 . > > 2. THE BOOBY-TRAPPED WHEELCHAIR > Lt.-Col. Tal, who lives in a Jezreel Valley with his wife and three > daughters, fought in the recent anti-terrorism offensive in Jenin. "[We] > went to great lengths to avoid hurting civilians," he said. "[We] > discovered that the Palestinian shooters were using civilians as shields. A > shooter inside a house might hide behind an old woman, firing at [us]. > Bombs and booby traps were everywhere. If Israelis killed a Palestinian, > the dead man's colleagues would booby trap his body. At one point, > Palestinians booby trapped a [...] 47946 169 49_FW: ACTION ALERT!: Berkeley to Divest From Israel11_Batel Libes25_batel_libes@earthlink.net31_Mon, 22 Apr 2002 19:31:53 -0700458_iso-8859-1



-----Original Message----- From: Lee Kravetz [mailto:LeeK@sfjcf.org] Sent: Monday, April 22, 2002 5:10 PM Subject: ACTION ALERT!: Berkeley to Divest From Israel

We forward to you a call to action that we received from the UC Berkeley Israel Action Committee. The support of our committee, and especially those of you who live in Berkeley, will be greatly appreciated. B'hatzlacha. Mark Schickman, Chair, Israel Center. [...] 48116 22 34_Israeli Silver Bead Manufacturers?11_Batel Libes25_batel_libes@earthlink.net31_Mon, 22 Apr 2002 23:58:03 -0700308_iso-8859-1 Hi, Does anyone out there know of manufacturers of silver beads in Israel? This would have to be on a semi-large/large scale with quantities for exporting needs. For those who don't know, silver beads made in Israel are considered to be some of the best in the bead world.

Toda, Batel [...] 48139 75 38_Re: Israeli Silver Bead Manufacturers?13_Avi Rosenberg16_avi@gezer.org.il31_Tue, 23 Apr 2002 10:59:05 +0200573_us-ascii I don't of any company like that, but if don't get any specific responses, you may want to try meir@atid-edi.com (http://www.atid-edi.com) They promote American-Israel trade and they might have an answer for you.



At 23:58 22/04/02 -0700, you wrote: >Hi, >Does anyone out there know of manufacturers of silver beads in Israel? This >would have to be on a semi-large/large scale with quantities for exporting >needs. For those who don't know, silver beads made in Israel are considered >to be some of the best in the bead world. > >Toda, Batel > [...] 48215 51 40_European boycott of Israeli acadecicians11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org31_Tue, 23 Apr 2002 05:46:40 -0500545_us-ascii Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 22:00:01 -0400 From: Anna Urowitz-Freudenstein Subject: European boycott of Israeli academicians (Siporin)

From: siporin Subject: European boycott of Israeli academicians

FROM THE MODERATOR: Although we at H-Judaic have a general policy of not posting messages that are political in nature, we felt we could make an exception for the following message which affects us all, as academics and as human beings. [The message has been slightly edited.] [...] 48267 739 31_Not a "peace process" but a war13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il31_Tue, 23 Apr 2002 16:25:49 +0200673_utf-8 Washington Post (Sunday Outlook) April 21, 2002 It's a War. Now, to What End? By Eliot A. Cohen

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A18800-2002Apr20.html

How rare it is that politicians, pundits and journalists call what has been going on in Israel and the occupied territories since September 2000 by its true name, which is war.

Instead they contribute to the lack of clarity about what is transpiring there by using fuzzy or even fatuous terms to describe it. "The peace process" label lasted long after the situation had metamorphosed into a bloody war process. "Violence" may seem a safely neutral shorthand but it is usually [...] 49007 49 38_Re: Israeli Silver Bead Manufacturers?13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il31_Tue, 23 Apr 2002 16:38:12 +0200104_iso-8859-1 Batel, try these guys:

http://www.geocities.com/waiman_66767/

All the best, Jon 49057 242 38_RE: Israeli Silver Bead Manufacturers?11_Batel Libes25_batel_libes@earthlink.net31_Tue, 23 Apr 2002 07:03:26 -0700293_iso-8859-1 Hi Jon, Thanks for the information, but I’m looking for the manufacturers. The prices this site lists are about 3 – 4 times that which I pay in the US. Any thoughts how I can find the manufacturers? I have even tried the consulate in the US, but have reached a dead end there. [...] 49300 41 38_Re: Israeli Silver Bead Manufacturers?13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il31_Tue, 23 Apr 2002 17:23:25 +020052_iso-8859-1 OK. Try this: http://www.kapash.up.co.il/ 49342 41 38_Re: Israeli Silver Bead Manufacturers?13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il31_Tue, 23 Apr 2002 17:29:29 +020065_iso-8859-1 Or, you could ask these folks: http://www.ijma.org.il/ 49384 17 35_Re: Not a "peace process" but a war0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Tue, 23 Apr 2002 10:49:17 EDT406_US-ASCII At last someone who actually understands and puts it in writing. Dennis

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 49402 424 13_From Al-Ahram13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il31_Tue, 23 Apr 2002 17:59:09 +0200684_windows-1255 You can get away with anything, if you're in a university:

'That weasel word' As an increasing number of intellectuals speak out against the Israeli onslaught in Palestine, very few have broken the conspiracy of silence in Britain. In Oxford, Omayma Abdel-Latif meets the Irish poet Tom Paulin --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

We are fed this inert This lying phrase Like comfort food As another little Palestinian boy In trainers jeans and a white teeshirt Is gunned down by the Zionist SS Whose initials we should -- but we don't -- dumb goys Clock in that weasel word Crossfire -- Tom Paulin, "Killed [...] 49827 169 18_Not in Whose Name?16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Tue, 23 Apr 2002 11:08:41 -0400529_iso-8859-1 SOMETHING INTERESTING: TWO ITEMS ON MICHAEL LERNER, AND ONE ON THE APRIL 20 MARCH IN WASHINGTON, DC. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ New York Jewish Week / 4/19/2002

"Michael Lerner’s Fine Adventure" by James D. Besser

For political protestors, there’s nothing worse than being dismissed as silly little schlemiels.

That’s exactly what happened to Rabbi Michael Lerner’s troop of 100 or so peaceniks when they showed up at the State Department for some ‘60s-style civil disobedience last Thursday. [...] 49997 21 22_Re: Not in Whose Name?13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Tue, 23 Apr 2002 11:35:16 -0400620_us-ascii While it reads like a hatchet job, one of my friends, who is agrees with Michael Lerner on almost everything, attended the Tikkun protest in DC and says that the Post article is incredibly accurate. Question regarding the New York Observer article" What is a "Hebrew-looking" tie? Judy

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 50019 19 26_HELP!!! Need a re-posting!0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Tue, 23 Apr 2002 11:59:34 EDT576_US-ASCII Hi- I am at work and need whoever posted the email regarding Berkely AND the academicinas to re-post them for Phil- He has a monthly paper and didn't hear anything about these two "incidents"-- and I can't retrieve them from here- Thanks sue

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 50039 96 30_RE: HELP!!! Need a re-posting!11_Batel Libes25_batel_libes@earthlink.net31_Tue, 23 Apr 2002 09:36:11 -0700434_US-ASCII We forward to you a call to action that we received from the UC Berkeley Israel Action Committee. The support of our committee, and especially those of you who live in Berkeley, will be greatly appreciated. B'hatzlacha. Mark Schickman, Chair, Israel Center.

**************************************************************************** *********************

>From the Israel Action Committee of UC Berkeley [...] 50136 15 30_Re: HELP!!! Need a re-posting!12_David Fleiss20_dfleiss@pipeline.com31_Tue, 23 Apr 2002 12:44:35 -0400429_- The messages on Habonet are all archived at http://www.shamash.org/listarchives/habonet/

David

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 50152 22 40_Re: HELP!!! Need a re-posting! GOT IT!!!0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Tue, 23 Apr 2002 13:49:40 EDT482_US-ASCII Thanks to Noam and "dfleiss" (are you related to Izzy?)...I got the info and proceded to call the Mayor's office of Berkeley- as an "official" media person- I was appalled- This resolution is obviously anti-Israel ( what "commodities" does Berkeley get from "Palestine"???)...I voiced the fact that while I admire freedom of speech- this is obviously an anti-Israel ploy in the guise of a balanced resolution- and I am embarrassed for the state in which I live....sue [...] 50175 492 12_Chosen Again13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il31_Tue, 23 Apr 2002 20:54:34 +0200365_windows-1255 GOD NAMES NEXT "CHOSEN PEOPLE"; IT'S JEWS AGAIN "Oh Shit," Say Jews

Jerusalem (SatireWire.com) Update — Jews, whose troubled, 10,000-year term as God's "chosen people" finally expired last night, woke up this morning to find that they had once again been hand-picked by the Almighty. Synagogues across the globe declared a day of mourning. [...] 50668 257 67_=?windows-1255?B?5PLh+OQ6IEZ3OiBTb21ldGhpbmcgdG8gdGhpbmsgYWJvdXQ=?=8_ericmoli25_ericmoli@netvision.net.il31_Tue, 23 Apr 2002 22:02:35 +0200802_windows-1255 Hi all,

Look at the following lists. The Jews are so few in numbers, compared to Muslims and Christians, but are greater in their casements. Is this why we are so despised, de-appreciated and denounced by popular choice? There is no one and only answer.

Mollie ----- Original Message ----- From: Pnina Some To: Joe Hersh ; Helen & Lionel Koven ; Schwager Sema ; Dena Satinoff ; Mollie Eric Marx ; Lillian Liss ; Roni E Some ; Rafi M Some ; Roie Some ; Baruch Gold ; Barbara Norm Some Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 12:29 [...] 50926 17 17_Re: From Al-Ahram0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Tue, 23 Apr 2002 17:58:47 EDT392_US-ASCII There's never a suicide bomber where you need one. Dennis

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 50944 16 40_Re: The text in your license file should0_15_Emabear@aol.com29_Tue, 23 Apr 2002 18:11:34 EDT406_US-ASCII I have no idea what this is and Norton informed me that it has a Virus.

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 50961 25 14_A new website?11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org31_Tue, 23 Apr 2002 18:58:40 -0500665_us-ascii Does anyone know about this site? Who is behind it? Information will be appreciated. I received the e-mail from a friend. Rozzie

Subject: home A new site I've just found: israelway.com - home --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.israelway.com/index.html



------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 50987 39 49_From Ha'aretz: Ringing with echoes of McCarthyism11_Batel Libes25_batel_libes@earthlink.net31_Tue, 23 Apr 2002 18:39:04 -0700718_iso-8859-1 Follow the link, and after you've read the article,

http://news.haaretz.co.il/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=155206&contrassID=2 &subContrassID=5&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y&itemNo=155206





Do you think that Israel is in some way going through the stages of becoming a grown-up state? After all, the modern state of Israel has been around only 54 years. Historically speaking, we have gone through the Cliff's Notes version of the trials and tribulations of a state growing up. And just like the US had to go through McCarthyism and deal with all that that era was and resulted in (how many Habonimics are red-diaper or close to it babies?), is Israel in the same place? Is [...] 51027 19 35_And more on the topic of censorship11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org31_Tue, 23 Apr 2002 21:07:08 -0500508_us-ascii Here is another article on the subject. This is in Hebrew from ynet. Sorry I could not find it in translation.

http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-1847709,00.html

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 51047 46 53_Re: From Ha'aretz: Ringing with echoes of McCarthyism0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Tue, 23 Apr 2002 22:43:26 EDT310_US-ASCII In a message dated 4/23/2002 6:39:27 PM Pacific Daylight Time, batel_libes@earthlink.net writes:



> ? Is the occupation in its own way similar to > slavery? >

HI Batel- Thanks for this posting- I have a lot of thoughts, but I am sure Dennis will express them in a better way!- sue 51094 18 46_Just in: Berkeley Rejects Anti-Israel Proposal11_Batel Libes25_batel_libes@earthlink.net31_Tue, 23 Apr 2002 22:07:56 -0700506_iso-8859-1 The Berkeley city council rejected the proposal to diversify from business with Israel. I don't have the exact vote, but two had abstained, which makes it kind of close.

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 51113 21 50_Re: Just in: Berkeley Rejects Anti-Israel Proposal0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Wed, 24 Apr 2002 01:21:15 EDT330_US-ASCII Hi Batel Today I called the Mayor's office and spilled my guts; then they asked me to call some city council secretary and I spilled my guts again about this. I am glad, even if it was close, that this was defeated. Mark met with your father today to talk about the screening in Santa Clarita! I will be there...sue [...] 51135 217 57_Two Thoughtful Articles: A Different Perspective on Jenin0_13_SC523@aol.com29_Wed, 24 Apr 2002 01:42:44 EDT404_US-ASCII Having posted the Amira Hass piece on Jenin, and groping for answers to the inexplicable, I received this from an old Habonim friend who's lived in Israel for decades and was on14th Workshop:

Two somewhat thoughtful articles, explaining how many Israelis feel. Maybe they can convince someone besides the convinced.

================================= Anti-Semitism as metaphor [...] 51353 130 17_I denounce terror9_yigalsela18_ysela@inter.net.il31_Wed, 24 Apr 2002 09:22:50 +0200509_windows-1255

Following the latest atrocity in Jerusalem, the Secretary Powell pleaded with the Palestinians to issue some form of denunciation. Arafat complained that only the Palestinian side is ever required to denounce terror. Predictably, the palestinian denunciation later mumbles that they, "deplore the murder of civilians on both sides."

Perhaps the Palestinians have a point, and so to set the record straight, I do hereby denounce the following in the name of the Jewish People: [...] 51484 48 21_Howdy! -rally article11_Andy Alpern25_alps@golemproductions.com31_Wed, 24 Apr 2002 08:44:25 -0400540_US-ASCII Boker Tov, Kulam! my name is Andy Alpern and I was at Machaneh Tavor from 1979-93 as a Chanich and Madrich. I recently moved to New York after living in Israel for four years. I plan on going back to live in Israel at some time in the, hopefully, not too distant future. Anyway, I joined this list to see what Habonimnikim are thinking and doing these days and to reconnect with people. While I was in Israel (I made Aliyah) I was a tour guide and web producer. One of the projects I created was a website called israelVR.com [...] 51533 37 21_Howdy! -rally article11_Andy Alpern25_alps@golemproductions.com31_Wed, 24 Apr 2002 09:23:46 -0400715_US-ASCII Sorry, Here's the article link: http://golemproductions.com/alps/rally.html Peace, Andy



Andy Alpern President, Golem Productions http://golemproductions.com alps@golemproductions.com

----------------------------------------------------------------------------





Golem Productions "We Bring Things to Life!" (212) 330-8166





------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 51571 18 53_Re: From Ha'aretz: Ringing with echoes of McCarthyism0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Wed, 24 Apr 2002 09:47:27 EDT421_US-ASCII I won't reply until I figure out where we are the enslaved or the Palestinians? Dennis

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 51590 17 53_Re: From Ha'aretz: Ringing with echoes of McCarthyism0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Wed, 24 Apr 2002 10:27:12 EDT465_US-ASCII Hi Dennis- I am convinced and afraid this is a two-way street...if you ever figure it out- then the Mashiach is on his way!--susie

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 51608 52 25_Fwd: Cartoons on Mideast-0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Wed, 24 Apr 2002 10:40:23 EDT64_US-ASCII Check these out- they "hit the nails" on the heads..sue 51661 55 20_photographs of Jenin13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il31_Wed, 24 Apr 2002 17:58:36 +0200366_windows-1255 Here are some aerial shots of Jenin, the refugee camp there, and the combat zone itself from the web site of the Israeli Foreign Ministry. These put some perspective on the actual area that was destroyed - to see the electronic media, one would think that Jenin was another Stalingrad. Anyhow, pass 'em around. http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/go.asp?MFAH0ll60 51717 26 9_For Brian14_Holtzer Family20_carmdave@urim.org.il31_Wed, 24 Apr 2002 21:37:40 +0200338_iso-8859-1 Dear Brian,

Recently we have been receiving a LOT of viruses, mostly from Habonet. Is there any way that a filter can be set up to remove them BEFORE they get relayed to the list?

If not, we will seriously have to consider unsubscribing from the list.......

Thanks, Dave and Carmi Holtzer (carmidave) [...] 51744 82 24_Re: photographs of Jenin7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Wed, 24 Apr 2002 18:45:41 +0300477_windows-1255 One of the officers who fought in Jenin told us that the actual completely destroyed area of Jenin Refugee Camp (not Jenin itself) was ~100 sq m. pearl ----- Original Message ----- From: Jonathan Baum To: Susie Bondy ; David & Lida Raziel ; Paul @ Work ; Marlene Reshall ; Matt Steinberg ; howard@israntique.org.il ; Hillel Rzepka ; Habonet ; Ariel Baum ; Amy Bernstein ; Alex & Kay Cohen Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2002 6:58 PM Subject: photographs of Jenin [...] 51827 35 24_Re: photographs of Jenin11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Wed, 24 Apr 2002 15:48:52 -0400524_us-ascii Thanks very much for this. From the pictures I've seen in the Washington Post and NY Times it looks like a much larger area. More grist for letters to the editor.

I guess I shouldn't be shocked that they would distort the picture so much, but they did something similar with the pictures of the pro-Israel rally last Monday (looked like a small crowd) and the pro-palestinian (and several other issues) rally on Saturday (picture looked like the crowd went from the capitol to the Washington Monument). [...] 51863 45 13_Re: For Brian0_18_Brianscoop@aol.com29_Wed, 24 Apr 2002 16:29:05 EDT541_US-ASCII > Recently we have been receiving a LOT of viruses, mostly from Habonet. > Is there any way that a filter can be set up to remove them BEFORE they get > relayed to the list?

> If not, we will seriously have to consider unsubscribing ...

Dear Carmi and Dave,

As far as I know, Shamash is doing a good job of filtering out viruses. I believe that you may be mistaken about receiving viruses via Habonet - I have not received any. On the other hand, there may be some members of Habonet who have you in their [...] 51909 30 53_RE: From Ha'aretz: Ringing with echoes of McCarthyism11_Batel Libes25_batel_libes@earthlink.net31_Wed, 24 Apr 2002 13:37:55 -0700499_us-ascii Since this is to be an intellectual and not a political discussion, I would say you can choose which ever suits your argument best.

-----Original Message----- From: owner-habonet@shamash.org [mailto:owner-habonet@shamash.org]On Behalf Of DLerner569@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2002 6:47 AM To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: Re: From Ha'aretz: Ringing with echoes of McCarthyism

I won't reply until I figure out where we are the enslaved or the Palestinians? Dennis [...] 51940 26 11_McCarthyism16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Wed, 24 Apr 2002 17:51:05 -0400617_us-ascii Apropos the posting of the HaAretz article on Yaffa Yarkoni and the refusal to honor her because of her views critical of Zahal activities in disputed territories. BB Netanyahu's father averred that he was denied tenure in the Hebrew University's history dept. because he was a die-hard revisionist. Netanyahu is one of the leading scholarly experts of Sephardic history. His allegation of intellectual McCarthyism by the political left is why he moved his family to Philadelphia to teach, I believe, at Dropsie. Thusly, BB went to high school in Philadelphia and to college and graduate school at MIT. [...] 51967 20 15_Re: McCarthyism12_David Fleiss20_dfleiss@pipeline.com31_Wed, 24 Apr 2002 18:08:07 -0400357_- That's very interesting. I always wondered if there was some connection between the famous historian and the former prime minister, both named Benjamin Netanyahu. I guess that's why the son is called Bibi, which is a whole lot better than being called "Junior" or "BJ" .

David



Elihu D. Davison wrote: [...] 51988 17 16_And from Arizona11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org31_Wed, 24 Apr 2002 18:24:43 -0500444_us-ascii More news on Israel from Arizona.

http://www.arizonarepublic.com/viewpoints/articles/0414boas0414.html

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 52006 21 13_Re: For Brian0_15_Emabear@aol.com29_Wed, 24 Apr 2002 21:38:51 EDT381_US-ASCII Dear Brian, Late last week I wrote concerning an email that I received from Habonet (I checked and rechecked the address) that contained a virus. Sorry I have erased it so that I don't have the date or the RE: It might be in the archives. Norton picked it up and no harm was done although it is annoying and disconcerting to those of us who are not computer mayvins. [...] 52028 77 13_Re: For Brian0_18_Brianscoop@aol.com29_Wed, 24 Apr 2002 22:52:48 EDT314_US-ASCII > Late last week I wrote concerning an email that I received from Habonet (I > checked and rechecked the address) that contained a virus. Sorry I have > erased it so that I don't have the date or the RE: It might be in the > archives. Norton picked it up and no harm was done although it is annoying [...] 52106 50 20_Workshop Celebration0_14_KBob24@aol.com29_Wed, 24 Apr 2002 23:29:43 EDT564_US-ASCII Folks:

I hope by now you have received the mailing about the upcoming events to celebrate 50 years of the workshop. I hope as many of you as possible will be joining us in NY on June 8 and 9th for some fun and meaningful events.

We also have a nice fundraising element as well, and we need your participation. We are including ads in a special edition of our chadashot newsletter. You can place an individual ad or get your workshop chevre together and fund a full page ad. One workshop (fairly recent) has 18 people jointly funding an [...] 52157 5707 21_Fwd: slides of Israel0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Wed, 24 Apr 2002 23:30:47 EDT191_US-ASCII This program was sent ot me by Marian Rosenfeld from Baltimore Habonim- it is very powerful--It is in Hebrew and is a slide show- so you have to push "enter" to get through it....sue 57865 327 10_Dan Gordon0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com29_Thu, 25 Apr 2002 00:23:07 EDT528_US-ASCII << This is a copy of an op-ed piece submitted to The NY and LA Times by Dan Gordon

As someone who has made a living for over thirty years by taking certain facts and ignoring others in order to create dramatic myths on film, I know propaganda when I see it. When I engage in it as a screenwriter it is to write a movie whose first job is to entertain. What has been coming out of Jenin this last week, however, is posing as unbiased journalism whose first obligation is to seek out and report the truth. In [...] 58193 114 7_Viruses13_Avi Rosenberg16_avi@gezer.org.il31_Thu, 25 Apr 2002 09:00:22 +0200518_us-ascii I've been receiving a very large amount of attached files with viruses everyday for the last week or so. It's not from Habonet.

At 16:29 24/04/02 -0400, you wrote: > > Recently we have been receiving a LOT of viruses, mostly from Habonet. > > Is there any way that a filter can be set up to remove them BEFORE they get > > relayed to the list? > > > If not, we will seriously have to consider unsubscribing ... > >Dear Carmi and Dave, > >As far as I know, Shamash is doing a good job of filtering [...] 58308 52 24_Re: Workshop Celebration21_Tsippi (Frances) Rudy16_tsippi@attbi.com31_Thu, 25 Apr 2002 00:09:35 -0700281_us-ascii At 08:29 PM 4/24/02, you wrote: >Folks: > >I hope by now you have received the mailing about the upcoming events to >celebrate 50 years of the workshop. I hope as many of you as possible will >be joining us in NY on June 8 and 9th for some fun and meaningful events. [...] 58361 422 14_Andrea Bat Ted12_Doug Greener25_ddwgreen@netvision.net.il31_Thu, 25 Apr 2002 10:11:46 +0300347_windows-1255 Gentlemen,

I apologize if you have already seen this particular article from World Net Daily. It is a followup on the original article and your response. I believe this to be a very basic and fundemental issue that needs to be brought to the attention of all journalists, the appropriate government agency and the public. [...] 58784 310 7_Subject12_Doug Greener25_ddwgreen@netvision.net.il31_Thu, 25 Apr 2002 10:12:04 +0300652_windows-1255

> Europe to Israel--Drop Dead > Why self-defense by the Jewish state is verboten. > by David Gelernter > 04/22/2002, Volume 007, Issue 31 > ISRAEL IS IN BIG TROUBLE with nearly the whole enlightened > world--European "peace activists" and Arab diplomats and Zbigniew > Brzezinski and all sorts of mainstream American journalists--for not > allowing Palestinian terrorists to kill its citizens with impunity. The > Europeans rushed to the West Bank town of Ramallah to surround and protect > the world's best-loved terrorist--that kindly old grump Yasser Arafat, > hero of his people, idol of Europe, Nobel laureate, ripper-up [...] 59095 145 46_another Israeli view of what happened in Jenin9_R. Shultz18_lzac@securenet.net31_Thu, 25 Apr 2002 03:12:27 -0400451_iso-8859-1 Something Stinks

Uri Avnery,20.4.02 - Gush Shalom

There is full agreement between all those who were in the Jenin refugee camp on only one thing. A week after the end of the fighting, foreign journalists and IDF soldiers, UN representatives and hired hacks in the Israeli media, members of the welfare organizations and government propagandists all report that a terrible stench of decomposing bodies lingers everywhere. [...] 59241 37 13_Re: For Brian4_sima19_simagr@telhai.ac.il31_Thu, 25 Apr 2002 13:35:26 +0200524_iso-8859-1

----- Original Message ----- From: Holtzer Family To: Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2002 9:37 PM Subject: For Brian



> Dear Brian, > > Recently we have been receiving a LOT of viruses, mostly from Habonet. > Is there any way that a filter can be set up to remove them BEFORE they get > relayed to the list? > > If not, we will seriously have to consider unsubscribing from the > list....... > > Thanks, Dave and Carmi Holtzer (carmidave) > > > [...] 59279 65 18_Re: Andrea Bat Ted11_Greg Taylor25_gttaylor@worldnet.att.net31_Thu, 25 Apr 2002 07:49:01 -0400605_windows-1255 The Washington Post has a reporter Daniel Williams whose articles have been biased using hyperbole and rhetoric to present a pro-Palestinian slant. The newspaper Ombudsman responded to all the complaints against its Mideast reporting by insulting the readers. While I am sure that the paper received rude letters, Williams pieces (in particular) were features and opinions masquerading as news reporting. For the last week, Williams has been reporting from Italy (on the Catholic Church Abuse Scandal) and the news articles on the Mideast have been more balanced and informative. Cindy Taylor 59345 22 18_Re: Andrea Bat Ted0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Thu, 25 Apr 2002 10:41:42 EDT462_US-ASCII The same has been happening in the LA Times. Yesterday, an incident was reportedin which the Times listed the NAME and OCCUPATION of an Israeli soldier who was involved in a battle which resulted in the death of a Palstinian- breaking ALL rules of reporting so that now this man is in danger of his life!The only way to impress these conglomerates is in their pocket books- and I suggest an agressive PR campaign to boycott their advertisers!- Sue [...] 59368 83 15_leftists' shame16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Thu, 25 Apr 2002 11:22:08 -0400370_us-ascii I AM ASHAMED OF MY FELLOW LEFTISTS by Eyal Megged from Israeli daily, "Ma'ariv", April 22, 2002 [with thanks to Menachem Bloch for the translation]

Like Oriana Fallaci, the courageous Italian journalist - a solitary media ray of light in these dark days - who is ashamed of the attitude of the Europeans towards Israel, I too am covered with shame. [...] 59452 127 46_Fwd: click and sign to send Bush a letter NOW!11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org31_Thu, 25 Apr 2002 10:27:45 -0500970_ISO-8859-1



Subject: click and sign > > >National Unity Coalition for Israel >3965 W. 83rd St. #292 >Shawnee Mission, KS 66208 >Phone: 913-432-7900 >http://www.israelunitycoalition.com >voicesunited@israelunitycoalition.com >To subscribe/unsubscribe >click here > > >Action Alert - >Ask the President to Hold Saudi Arabia Accountable. > > >Despite Saudi Arabia's unholy alliance with terrorism, the Crown >Prince Abdullah will be received at President Bush's ranch this >Thursday, April 25th. There is no better time for the Prince to >declare whether he will actively support peace or continue to support >brutal terrorism. > >CLICK >HERE to send a letter to President Bush with copies to [...] 59580 370 101_Fwd: contrast NYTimes article: Saudi to Warn Bush of Rupture OverIsrael Policy vs. Richard Littlejohn11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org31_Thu, 25 Apr 2002 10:29:21 -0500625_ISO-8859-1



Already sent your Bush letter? Please read these 2 and send a >thank-you to Richard LIttlejohn for being a mensch!! > >Subject: contrast NYTimes article: Saudi to Warn Bush of Rupture Over >Israel Policy vs. Richard Littlejohn >Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 05:29:09 -0500 > >Here's an interesting contrast: This piece below is from today's NY Times, >about anticipated Saudi arm twisting (read as: I don't like the way you >play, so I'm going to take all my marbles, uh, oil, and go home!), >contrasted to Richard Littlejohn's piece, in yesterday's (London) Sun, that >follows. If you want to thank [...] 59951 86 42_Chadashot ads for the Workshop anniversary14_Jessica Silver26_foundation@habonimdror.org31_Thu, 25 Apr 2002 13:00:19 -0400436_iso-8859-1 Hi Alumni and Friends,

A Habonetter suggested that I respost the prices for the Chadashot ads, so here they are:

Full page ad: $500 1/2 page ad: $300 1/4 page ad: $180 1/8 page ad: $120 Listing: $50

Contact me if you have any questions. Jessica Silver



Executive Director Habonim Dror Foundation Phone: 646/486-1689 Fax: 212/929-3459 foundation@habonimdror.org www.habonimdrorfoundation.org 60038 671 14_Oriana Fallaci15_Leo Diesendruck18_leodie@isdn.net.il31_Thu, 25 Apr 2002 20:43:01 +0200571_US-ASCII I am pasting in the English version of an article by Oriana Fallaci the famous Italian journalist.





> This is a translation of an article that appeared in Corriere della > Sera, April 12, 2002 > > Oriana Fallaci on Antisemitism > (April 12, 2002) > > I find it shameful that in Italy there should be a procession of > individuals dressed as suicide bombers who spew vile abuse at Israel, > hold up photographs of Israeli leaders on whose foreheads they have > drawn the swasitka, incite people to hate the Jews. And who, in order > to [...] 60710 17 14_Re: Dan Gordon0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Thu, 25 Apr 2002 13:55:36 EDT446_US-ASCII While this may be a fair description- I doubt either paper will publish it given the current media climate. sue

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 60728 33 41_Jerusalem Post Mail Article From A Friend12_SUE LIBERMAN18_liberhawke@aol.com37_Fri, 26 Apr 2002 01:12:17 +0200 (IST)477_- Hello,

Your friend SUE LIBERMAN (liberhawke@aol.com) sent you the following article:

Pearl's descriptions of stolen cars and why is right here on the printed page!- sue

Jerusalem area terrorist cell arrested By Etgar Lefkovits

Israeli security forces have apprehended a five-member terrorist cell that was responsible for the murder of seven Israelis in shooting attacks in and around Jerusalem over the past year, police announced Thursday. [...] 60762 97 36_Settlements are an obstacle to peace9_R. Shultz18_lzac@securenet.net31_Fri, 26 Apr 2002 05:35:05 -0400541_iso-8859-1 EDITORIAL: NEW YORK TIMES April 26, 2002 Israel's Historic Miscalculation

Late last week, senior Israeli Army officers called for uprooting several dozen isolated Jewish settlements in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip because of the military burden involved in protecting them. Even though the proposal was focused on Israeli security interests, Prime Minister Ariel Sharon angrily dismissed it at a cabinet meeting, saying that as long as he was in power there would be no discussion of removing a single settlement. [...] 60860 52 58_NYT - Israel Refuses to Recognize Greek Orthodox Patriarch11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Fri, 26 Apr 2002 08:37:04 -0400493_iso-8859-1 Whatever happened to allowing others to observe their religious practices?

+++++++ JERUSALEM, April 25 — The Israeli government has once again refused to recognize the new Greek Orthodox patriarch of Jerusalem, the custodian of most of the Christian religious sites in the region.

The patriarch, Irineos, was elected by the bishops of the Jerusalem patriarchate in August and enthroned on Sept. 15 as the leader of the oldest and largest church in the Holy Land. [...] 60913 74 63_Washington Post - Israeli Reservists Tell Of Jenin Camp Assault11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Fri, 26 Apr 2002 08:45:07 -0400362_us-ascii One tells the story we have heard from Pearl and others. Another indicates that some of the stories we've been told to dismiss may have some truth.

Noam

+++

Ill-Prepared For a Battle Unexpected Israeli Reservists Tell Of Jenin Camp Assault

By John Lancaster Washington Post Staff Writer Friday, April 26, 2002; Page A01 [...] 60988 22 18_35 new settlments?11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Fri, 26 Apr 2002 09:21:20 -0400587_us-ascii

An editorial in todays NY Times indicates that there have been 35 new settlements established b y the Sharon government in violation of the coalition agreement with Labor. Does anyone have more information about this?

Thanks,

Noam

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 61011 151 46_RE: Settlements are an obstacle to peace??????11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Fri, 26 Apr 2002 07:57:26 -0700549_iso-8859-1 Dear R. Shultz

Sorry I've been busy and haven't lent too many of my own opinions to the fray. I had a moment now to stop and read a few more in the blizzard of letters that Habonet has spawned.

Yours does not disturb me. On the issue of the settlements, there are only going to be two main positions, with minor variations. And if you haven't figured it out already, mere logical arguments are not going to convince or budge the main body of adherents on either side. Oh, I think if you persist, you may end up pushing [...] 61163 50 40_Re: Settlements are an obstacle to peace0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Fri, 26 Apr 2002 11:23:38 EDT332_US-ASCII In a message dated 4/26/2002 5:33:44 AM Eastern Daylight Time, lzac@securenet.net writes:



> The Palestinian and Arab > leadership must also realize that the longer the Palestinians rely on > terrorism and fail to return to negotiation, the harder it will be to > remove > these "facts on the ground." > [...] 61214 146 46_Re: Chadashot ads for the Workshop anniversary14_Jessica Silver26_foundation@habonimdror.org31_Fri, 26 Apr 2002 11:26:07 -0400392_iso-8859-1 -----Original Message----- From: LiberHawke@aol.com To: foundation@habonimdror.org Date: Thursday, April 25, 2002 1:55 PM Subject: Re: Chadashot ads for the Workshop anniversary

>I work at a Jewish media company and can design our ad- can you also give us the specs ( sizes and layout plan of the adbook?....thanks sue [...] 61361 46 57_Habonim Dror Rally with the Peace Coalition: May 11th NYC11_Jamie Levin22_mazkir@habonimdror.org31_Fri, 26 Apr 2002 12:07:36 -0400614_iso-8859-1 The Peace Coalition Solidarity Rally

On May 11th the Israeli Peace Camp will come together in Tel Aviv to demand a peaceful political resolution to the Israeli-Palesinian conflict. On the same day, we (Habonim Dror, Meretz USA, Hashomer Hatzair and The Labor Zionist Alliance) will gather in front of the Israeli Consulate to express our support of the Peace Coalition and our solidarity with the people of Israel. Knesset member and Meretz leader, Ran Cohen will address the rally. We will then march together to the PLO Mission to the UN in a show of our continued support for Palestinian [...] 61408 146 46_Re: Settlements are an obstacle to peace??????9_R. Shultz18_lzac@securenet.net31_Fri, 26 Apr 2002 12:22:06 -0400516_iso-8859-1 Steve Klein wrote: > Sorry I've been busy and haven't lent too many of my own opinions to the > fray. I had a moment now to stop and read a few more in the blizzard of > letters that Habonet has spawned. > > Yours does not disturb me. On the issue of the settlements, there are only > going to be two main positions, with minor variations. And if you haven't > figured it out already, mere logical arguments are not going to convince or > budge the main body of adherents on either side. Oh, I think [...] 61555 198 22_Re: 35 new settlments?9_R. Shultz18_lzac@securenet.net31_Fri, 26 Apr 2002 12:35:00 -0400441_iso-8859-1 Noam Stopak wrote:

> An editorial in todays NY Times indicates that there have been 35 new settlements established b y the Sharon government in violation of the coalition agreement with Labor. Does anyone have more information about this? > > Thanks, > > Noam

Noam, below is a Peace Now press release. Peace Now sponsors "settlement watch" which is widely regarded as an accurate surveyor of settlement growth. [...] 61754 94 46_Re: Settlements are an obstacle to peace??????0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Fri, 26 Apr 2002 13:27:13 EDT602_US-ASCII Reuven, Wow. I forced myself to read all of your posting in the hope of finding a statement I agreed with. Sorry, I did not. Not one.

Peace, like stubbornness, requires more than one party.

Palestine is a geographical reference. Palestinian's are a set of family groups (clans, tribes, etc.) who have lived in towns and villages in that general area, including in much of what is presently, Jordan - where they are the numerical majority. The claim of the Palestinians is a claim to property - they were displaced in Israel's war of Independence. This claim is inherently a [...] 61849 20 22_Re: 35 new settlments?0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Fri, 26 Apr 2002 13:32:09 EDT311_US-ASCII It is absolutely necessary for Israel to abide by its agreements. Until there is a formal declaration that the agreement has been not just violated, but abrogated by the other side, Israel must comply completely with the letter and spirit of the agreement. Otherwise there can be no trust. Dennis [...] 61870 28 22_Re: 35 new settlments?13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Fri, 26 Apr 2002 13:45:13 -0400531_us-ascii What exactly did Israel sign that said that it would establish no new settlements? In area A, B or C? I am not picking a fight. I want to know the details. Judy Gelman

DLerner569@aol.com wrote:

> It is absolutely necessary for Israel to abide by its agreements. Until > there is a formal declaration that the agreement has been not just violated, > but abrogated by the other side, Israel must comply completely with the > letter and spirit of the agreement. Otherwise there can be no trust. > Dennis > [...] 61899 148 46_Re: Settlements are an obstacle to peace??????9_R. Shultz18_lzac@securenet.net31_Fri, 26 Apr 2002 15:48:57 -0400551_iso-8859-1 Dennis Lerner wrote: > Reuven, Wow. I forced myself to read all of your posting in the hope of > finding a statement I agreed with. Sorry, I did not. Not one. > > Peace, like stubbornness, requires more than one party. > > Palestine is a geographical reference. Palestinian's are a set of family > groups (clans, tribes, etc.) who have lived in towns and villages in that > general area, including in much of what is presently, Jordan - where they are > the numerical majority. The claim of the Palestinians is a claim to property > - [...] 62048 46 60_Re: Fw: [ShomerNet] (Personal) All time Top l0 Israeli films0_18_Green88888@aol.com29_Fri, 26 Apr 2002 17:00:41 EDT650_US-ASCII I agree with your #1 and 2 choice Circas Palestina and Avanti Popolo are two of my favorites! Other Israeli movies i would recommend - 1.:Ha Aretz HaChadash -The New Land-a story of two child holocaust survivors (brother and sister) tryin to integrate into kibbbutz life 2. Ha Kayitz shel Aviya 3.Tachat haEtz HaDomin - Both of these are with Gila Almagor and are somewhat autobiographical-memoirs if her childhood. 4. Late SUMMER bLUES- HIGH SCHOOL STUDENTS WAITING FOR INDUCTION TO ARMY 5.HaHesder-Soldier-Rabbi influences his followers to set an explosion by temple mount? 6. HaEisha-Wonderful story set inSephardic neighbood of old [...] 62095 59 46_Re: Settlements are an obstacle to peace??????0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Fri, 26 Apr 2002 17:37:18 EDT348_US-ASCII I am not advocating Reuven, but as I see it, and as I have posted before. The choices are (or were) 1) create a Palestinian protectorate in the West Bank administered by Israel with a 20 - 100 year plan for independence and developing self governance. It would not be part of Israel. So the democratic issues would not be confronted. [...] 62155 158 43_[Fwd: Backgrounder: "The Saudi Connection"]16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Fri, 26 Apr 2002 17:50:13 -040017_us-ascii

62314 158 43_[Fwd: Backgrounder: "The Saudi Connection"]16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Fri, 26 Apr 2002 17:53:00 -040017_us-ascii

62473 111 12_(no subject)0_13_JLCAA@aol.com29_Fri, 26 Apr 2002 21:31:30 EDT620_US-ASCII

In a message dated 4/26/02 6:19:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jcpainfo@thejcpa.org writes:



> > Re: Action Alert: Israel Medical Association (IMA) > > > We are sharing with you an action alert prepared by Hadassah regarding > the attempt to expel the Israel Medical Association (IMA) from the World > Medical Association (WMA) in its meeting in Geneva next Wednesday, May > 1st. > > Please contact all American Medical Association (AMA) members and ask > them to call their local AMA chapter, or the national AMA at > 312-464-5000, urging the AMA to work to defeat this resolution and [...] 62585 46 12_(no subject)0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com29_Fri, 26 Apr 2002 21:49:15 EDT584_US-ASCII In a message dated 4/26/02 5:38:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time, DLerner569@aol.com writes:



> Israel is a Jewish > state. That is its reason for being.

I have a question for any of you Zionists out there. Let us assume that a peace settlement is reached and most of the West Bank and Gaza are no longer under Israeli control. Most of the Israeli Arabs stay in Israel and in fifty years or so the Arab population of Israel begins to threaten (in numbers, not violence) the Jewish majority. What do you who agree with the statement above think should be [...] 62632 32 16_Re: (no subject)0_15_Marshlf@aol.com29_Fri, 26 Apr 2002 22:12:20 EDT64_US-ASCII throw their first born sons into the river?

lisa 62665 16 19_Opportunity to help11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org31_Fri, 26 Apr 2002 21:22:00 -0500393_us-ascii Please pass this along.... http://www.vfi-usa.org/vfi.html

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 62682 26 16_Re: (no subject)13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Fri, 26 Apr 2002 23:55:09 -0400 62709 118 34_Re: The Peace Coalition Rally 11/59_yigalsela18_ysela@inter.net.il31_Sat, 27 Apr 2002 17:37:45 +0200464_windows-1255



Reading Jamie's call to rally on the May 11th. has forced me, true belatedly, to express my deep disappointment by the HDNA leadership (i.e. the Maskirut) to boycott THE Solidarity gathering in Washington last week. I find the excuses or reasoning (we want to be part of "The Peace Coalition" and not part of a gathering in which a democratically elected Israeli Minister and Former Prime Minister were present) not very serious. [...] 62828 24 34_Re: The Peace Coalition Rally 11/511_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Sat, 27 Apr 2002 12:35:02 -0400341_us-ascii I agree with what you have written Yigal. Perhaps it will cheer you to know that, regardless of the position of the Maskirut, there was a HDNA presence at the Solidarity gathering in Washington April 15. In a crowd of over 100,000 I had no difficulty finding a group of HDNA members from Mosh and Galil wearing their chultzot. [...] 62853 83 16_Re: (no subject)0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Sat, 27 Apr 2002 12:37:55 EDT414_US-ASCII I am currently reading Bernard Lewis' book, What Went Wrong which describes the issues responsible for the failure of the Muslim world to retain its lead in arts, science and medicine, and to fall further and further behind. One of the reasons he identifies is the retention of a more or less religious state (Turkey being the notable exception) rather than following the secularization of the West. [...] 62937 48 22_Re: New Computer Virus0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com29_Sat, 27 Apr 2002 12:57:24 EDT526_US-ASCII

ahhh that we would take all misinformation so seriously. Thanks for the tip brian

In a message dated 4/17/02 4:11:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Brianscoop@aol.com writes:



> Please DO NOT forward these things to Habonet, and I suggest that ANY time > you get mail that tells you to forward on to everyone you know, you should > DELETE it. You can always do a little research first if you still feel > compelled, despite my pleading, to take these seriously. This particular > hoax has been 62986 335 40_Anti-Semitism Is Deepening Among Muslims13_moshe sheskin24_moshes7@netvision.net.il55_Sat, 27 Apr 2002 13:12:38 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time)624_iso-8859-1 April 27, 2002



Anti-Semitism Is Deepening Among Muslims



By SUSAN SACHS

Stay in a five-star hotel anywhere from Jordan to Iran, and you can buy the infamous forgery "Protocols of the Elders of Zion." Pick up a newspaper in any part of the Arab world and you regularly see a swastika superimposed on the Israeil flag. Such anti-Semitic imagery is now embedded in the mainstream discourse concerning Jews in much of the Islamic world, in the popular press and in academic journals. The depictions are not limited to countries that are at war with Israel but can be found in [...] 63322 370 20_Terror in the Church12_Doug Greener25_ddwgreen@netvision.net.il31_Sat, 27 Apr 2002 22:27:34 +0300711_windows-1255 TERROR IN THE CHURCH

The Jerusalem Post reports that 3 Armenian monks, held hostage by the Palestinian gunmen inside the Bethlehem's Church of the Nativity, fleed the church and were rescued by Israeli soldiers, after holding aloft a white cloth banner with the words "Please help."

One of the monks, Narkiss Korasian, told reporters: "They stole everything, they opened the doors one by one and stole everything... they stole our prayer books and four [gold] crosses... they didn't leave anything." Israeli officials quoted the monks as saying that Palestinian gunmen had also begun beating and attacking clergymen. http://www.jpost.com/Editions/2002/04/24/News/News.47624.html [...] 63693 80 62_Re: NYT - Israel Refuses to Recognize Greek Orthodox Patriarch7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Sun, 28 Apr 2002 00:43:13 +0300597_iso-8859-1 Noam: It has absolutely nothing to do with religious observance. The previous patriarch was involved in selling church land leases to the Keren Kayemet for millions of dollars and all the money disappeared. No one knows who stole it and where the money is. Meanwhile, despite the fact that the KK paid for the leases, the Church is still in control because the money disappeared and the then patriarch claimed he had nothing to do with the sale and transfer of these Church lands. Much of Rechavia/Talbieh is built on church land (Roman Catholic and Greek Catholic), and Arafat is [...] 63774 61 46_Settlements are an obstacle to Peace... My Ass6_S Cohn16_scohn@execpc.com31_Sat, 27 Apr 2002 20:14:30 -0500583_us-ascii Below is a list of Arab villages that were replaced by Kibbutzim near and dear to all of us. The numbers in parenthesis are the numbers of people that are said to have lived in those villages. I do not ever remember us saying that these settlements were an obstacle to peace in 1967 or 1973. Quite frankly, I challenge anyone out there in Kfar Habonet to list what Arab villages were replaced by settlements in the current adminstrered areas. The answer is none. Many say that the new settelments are obstacle because they prevent contigous space for the Balestinians. [...] 63836 59 50_Re: Settlements are an obstacle to Peace... My Ass0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com29_Sun, 28 Apr 2002 09:57:50 EDT590_US-ASCII In a message dated 4/27/02 9:43:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time, scohn@execpc.com writes:



> . I some hall recall that we invited them to > stay in Haifa and Acco etc as equal citizens.

This myth, as I understand it, has been debunked by modern Israeli historians. And even if crimes were committed 54 years ago it does not excuse crimes being committed today. The building of 20 plus settlements since Sharon has become PM is evidence to anyone with any sense of objectivity that Sharon is not interested in any sort of settlement short of a greater Israel. [...] 63896 74 46_Re: Settlements are an obstacle to peace??????11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Sun, 28 Apr 2002 14:59:45 -0400488_us-ascii "R. Shultz" wrote:

> ... When > we made peace with the Palestinians in 1993 we assured them we don't have > any more designs on their land. >

Hi Reuven,

I'm not sure I understand the basis of the statement above. Can you identify the words that give you this impression?

In addition, I'd like to be sure I understand what you mean by "their land". It would help me understand your position of you could state clearly what you view as their land. [...] 63971 43 27_Michael Lerner and company.0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com29_Sun, 28 Apr 2002 16:28:44 EDT594_US-ASCII There is no question that the settlements are an obstacle to peace and more than that the are an obstacle to Israel developing. Large parts of the military establishment as well as the public are against the settlements and want something done. But as long as the suicide bombers are on the top of the agenda, the settlements will not be targetted. The awful bombing on Pesach focused Israeli attention on the terror. The shameless campaign to indicate that there was an atrocity in Jenin when there was no evidence for that further distracted our attention. If we really believe [...] 64015 35 31_Re: Michael Lerner and company.12_David Fleiss20_dfleiss@pipeline.com31_Sun, 28 Apr 2002 17:09:32 -0400360_us-ascii Smfgrappa@aol.com wrote: >We should focus on the settlements and the occupation and not on those who >wish to bring back millions of Arab refugees and set them up inside the >green line. I am speaking of course of Michael Lerner, who pretends to be >part of the Israeli new left but often takes positions that undermine his >and our credibility. [...] 64051 31 46_Re: Settlements are an obstacle to peace??????11_Sue Mackson16_susiem6@juno.com31_Sun, 28 Apr 2002 21:35:23 -0400528_-

> I am no expert in International Law, but nowhere have I seen or > heard of a > tribal or other indigenous group being granted independence and > statehood by > the nation that contains them.

Isn't that what the Balfour Declaration did?

Susie (Kallen) Mackson

________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. [...] 64083 20 16_workshop reunion0_15_AvivaMT@aol.com29_Sun, 28 Apr 2002 22:38:23 EDT496_US-ASCII Is anyone from the 14th thinking of going?

Also, I'm having trouble opening the attachments about the reunion. Can anyone scan and email them to me? Aviva

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 64104 182 46_Re: Settlements are an obstacle to peace??????9_R. Shultz18_lzac@securenet.net31_Sun, 28 Apr 2002 23:55:47 -0400323_iso-8859-1

Noam Stopak wrote: > > I'm not sure I understand the basis of the statement above. Can you > identify the words that give you this impression? > "R. Shultz" wrote: > > > ... When > > we made peace with the Palestinians in 1993 we assured them we don't have > > any more designs on their land. > > > [...] 64287 28 18_WHAT IS HAPPENING?0_15_DebALev@aol.com29_Mon, 29 Apr 2002 00:36:27 EDT348_US-ASCII In the last two weeks, I moved from Seattle back to Cincinnati, spent four days in the hospital, and got my divorce (finally after over 5 years' separation from Mr. Inertia).

Shit is still happening you-know-where. I am worried and scared.

I just read about academics in Europe proposing a boycott of Israeli academics. [...] 64316 464 33_Israel Solidarity Rally in London9_yigalsela18_ysela@inter.net.il31_Mon, 29 Apr 2002 07:52:39 +0200326_windows-1255 Habonet readers will have followed my stand vis-a-vis the Solidarity rallies for Israel as of late and that in Washington specifically.

Today I received a copy of the following letter from a young man, ex-mazkir of Netzer U.K., whose parents were both active leaders of Dror U.K. in the late sixties. [...] 64781 126 30_CBS -series on the Middle East13_moshe sheskin24_moshes7@netvision.net.il55_Mon, 29 Apr 2002 03:15:02 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time)477_iso-8859-1 CBS is now showing on their program "counterspin", a series devoted to the Middle East. The first featured Arafat, the second which will be tonight will be on Sharon and his involvement in Lebanon. On Tuesday evening it is devoted to Israel and so on until Thursday evening.

I don't expect that the commentators, in the main, will be inclined to support Israel. This is evidenced by what I have seen on the program on Arafat. It would be worth watching. [...] 64908 214 34_Re: CBS -series on the Middle East9_R. Shultz18_lzac@securenet.net31_Mon, 29 Apr 2002 06:20:47 -0400427_iso-8859-1 The series will be broadcast on CBC's - (the canadian broadcasting corporation) Newsworld. Counterspin is a show which usually invites guests who represent different sides of the debate. For instance counterspin invites someone from the Canada Israel Committte or B'nai Brith and someone from the Arab or Palestinian community. Ditto with scholars. It tries to establish balance for the sake of healthy debate. [...] 65123 51 16_moral relativism9_R. Shultz18_lzac@securenet.net31_Mon, 29 Apr 2002 07:00:20 -0400529_iso-8859-1 (from) The power of the weak Arie Caspi, Ha'aretz Magazine, April 27, 2002

Okay, so there wasn't a massacre. Israel only shot some children, brought a house crashing down on an old man, rained cement blocks on an invalid who couldn't get out in time, used locals as a human shield against bombs, and prevented aid from getting to the sick and wounded. That's really not a massacre, and there's no need for a commission of inquiry or a "fact-finding mission," whether run by ourselves or sent by the goyim. [...] 65175 28 35_FWD: re Boycott of Israeli scholars11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org31_Mon, 29 Apr 2002 06:06:54 -0500772_us-ascii From: Association for Jewish Studies Subject: Press Release on the European academic boycott of Israeli scholars

The statement/press release issued today by the Officers and Board of AJS in support of our Israeli colleagues and against the threatened boycott may be found at

http://www.brandeis.edu/ajs/Anti-boycott.html

Yours sincerely,

Aaron L. Katchen Executive Director ================

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 65204 17 7_Re-send11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org31_Mon, 29 Apr 2002 07:30:31 -0500410_us-ascii Would or could someones re-send me the Orianna Falacci article? Thanks, Roz

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 65222 47 46_Re: Settlements are an obstacle to peace??????13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Mon, 29 Apr 2002 08:35:33 -0400477_us-ascii Dear Reuven,

I am interested in your reference to Israel's mandated territory.

If we are going back to the mandate, Israel would keep a portion of the occupied territories but give up bits of the land within its currently recognized international borders, Jordan would get most of the the rest and Egypt would get Gaza. Israel and Egypt only made peace by agreeing that Israel kept the Gaza booby prize for now. Jordan doesn't want the rest either. [...] 65270 37 21_Struggling Playwright0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Mon, 29 Apr 2002 09:07:22 EDT472_US-ASCII I find that I am writing a play.

Well, I'm as surprised as you are. The play is about 2 families one Israeli, one Palestinian. The 2 families are played by the same actors. A couple of things want to be happening (plays seem to unfold on their own once characters are placed in a situation) My Palestinian father wants to be a foreman in an Israeli plant where he overhears plotting by other Palestinians and is struggling about becoming an informer. [...] 65308 71 17_the current virus0_18_Brianscoop@aol.com29_Mon, 29 Apr 2002 09:09:08 EDT623_US-ASCII Hi. A number of people have complained of a resurgence in virus-carrying emails that seem to be related to habonet. I checked again with Shamash and can confirm that they are stopping thousands of viruses from going out to all the Shamash lists.

They do explain that the W32.Klez is now rampant. This virus destroys executables by replacing them with copies of itself. It propagates by e-mail, taking random sender and destination identities it finds in the infected machine. For example, if the infected machine had a message FROM me, brianscoop@aol.com, that its owner had saved along with a message [...] 65380 101 46_Re: Settlements are an obstacle to peace??????9_R. Shultz18_lzac@securenet.net31_Mon, 29 Apr 2002 09:23:25 -0400550_iso-8859-1 Judith Gelman wrote:

> Dear Reuven, > > I am interested in your reference to Israel's mandated territory. > > If we are going back to the mandate, Israel would keep a portion of the occupied > territories but give up bits of the land within its currently recognized > international borders, Jordan would get most of the the rest and Egypt would get > Gaza. Israel and Egypt only made peace by agreeing that Israel kept the Gaza > booby prize for now. Jordan doesn't want the rest either. > > You know all this. Why go back and [...] 65482 58 25_Re: Struggling Playwright9_R. Shultz18_lzac@securenet.net31_Mon, 29 Apr 2002 09:41:54 -0400542_iso-8859-1

> I find that I am writing a play. > > Well, I'm as surprised as you are. The play is about 2 families one Israeli, > one Palestinian. The 2 families are played by the same actors. A couple of > things want to be happening (plays seem to unfold on their own once > characters are placed in a situation) My Palestinian father wants to be a > foreman in an Israeli plant where he overhears plotting by other Palestinians > and is struggling about becoming an informer. > > Question - Are there West Bank Palestinians in [...] 65541 52 21_A Labor Zionist Hope?9_R. Shultz18_lzac@securenet.net31_Mon, 29 Apr 2002 09:49:33 -0400649_iso-8859-1 Burg to press his own peace plan at Labor's convention

By Yossi Verter - Ha'aretz, April 29. 2002

Knesset speaker Avraham Burg yesterday presented the Labor Party political committee with the peace plan he intends to bring to a vote before the party convention on June 11.

Burg derided the unilateral separation plan (proposed by his party colleagues Haim Ramon MK and Trade and Industry Minister, Dalia Itzik) saying it offered false hopes. Burg said unilateral separation without talks and agreements meant the "creation of a fence between Israel and the Middle East, and a strategic concession of the Zionist [...] 65594 274 56_RE: [hdnacampingassn] Re: The Peace Coalition Rally 11/511_Jamie Levin22_mazkir@habonimdror.org31_Mon, 29 Apr 2002 10:42:45 -0400630_windows-1255 Unfortunately Yigal is incorrect in both his analysis and the factual basis of his argument. The Mazkirut Artzit at NO time instituted a boycott against the Rally in Washington. There was an intense dialogue over the ma'apilim listserve about whether or not Habonim Dror should attend the rally. I chimed in only to express my concerns about the rally namely: *This was a stated pro Israel GOVERNMENT (and hence policy) rally. *The keynote speaker, Bibi Netanyahu, is on the warpath. However, there was a clear understanding within the ma'apilim and Mazkirut Artzit that Habonim Dror DOES and should continue to [...] 65869 17 25_Re: Struggling Playwright0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Mon, 29 Apr 2002 11:23:33 EDT387_US-ASCII Thank you, Reuven. I will get copies of both. Dennis

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 65887 18 22_Re: WHAT IS HAPPENING?0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Mon, 29 Apr 2002 11:33:29 EDT385_US-ASCII Debbie, We were here. Are you OK. Hospital? Dennis

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 65906 39 21_FW: Israel Day Parade11_Jamie Levin22_mazkir@habonimdror.org31_Mon, 29 Apr 2002 12:41:12 -0400335_iso-8859-1 Habonim Dror will be marching with Hashomer Hatzair in this years Israel Day Parade. I encourage everyone to come out and show their support of the people of Israel while proclaiming our hope for peace.

Habonim Dror will be meeting at 53rd street between 5th and Madison at 2:00 Sunday May 5th. (rain or shine). [...] 65946 413 40_Fwd: IMPORTANT CONGRESSIONAL RESOLUTIONS11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org31_Mon, 29 Apr 2002 12:32:51 -0500682_us-ascii



>This is VERY IMPORTANT. We must all act on this request right away - >Do it now!!! > >Thank you for taking two minutes to call (time is of the essence) and >express your views, so that our congress will continue to support >Israel. > >Kol Tuv, >Rabbi Ilana Rosansky > > >>From: "Lankin, Rabbi Eric" >>To: >>Subject: IMPORTANT CONGRESSIONAL RESOLUTIONS >>Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 12:06:40 -0400 >>*********************************************** >>JCPA Action Alert >>Jewish Council for Public Affairs >> >>April 26, 2002 >> >>To: JCPA and UJC Member Agencies >> >>From: Martin J. Raffel, Associate Executive Director >> Reva Price, [...] 66360 133 103_=?iso-8859-1?B?4fLw6envOiBTZXR0bGVtZW50cyBhcmUgYW4gb2JzdGFjbGUgdG8gcGVh?= =?iso-8859-1?B?Y2U/Pz8/Pz8=?=8_ericmoli25_ericmoli@netvision.net.il31_Mon, 29 Apr 2002 21:04:16 +0200577_iso-8859-1 Dear Judith,

Did you get my E mail? I sent you one a week ago. Hope to hear from you.

All the best, Mollie Marx ----- Original Message ----- From: R. Shultz To: Sent: Monday, April 29, 2002 3:23 PM Subject: Re: Settlements are an obstacle to peace??????



> Judith Gelman wrote: > > > Dear Reuven, > > > > I am interested in your reference to Israel's mandated territory. > > > > If we are going back to the mandate, Israel would keep a portion of the > occupied > > territories but give up [...] 66494 270 56_Re: [hdnacampingassn] Re: The Peace Coalition Rally 11/511_Don Goelman25_don.goelman@villanova.edu31_Mon, 29 Apr 2002 14:29:51 -0400473_iso-8859-1 Yigal was pretty much correct. (Well, I suppose he was technically incorrect in calling the Mazkirut Artzit's failure to support the rally a "boycott.") However, Yigal's deep disappointment was disturbingly appropriate. The major mission statement by the rally's organizers included a statement by Elie Wiesel, not Bibi Netanyahu. And the nine-paragraph "message" of the rally mentioned solidarity with the "State and people of Israel," not the government. [...] 66765 35 19_Porgram at Machanot11_Batel Libes25_batel_libes@earthlink.net31_Mon, 29 Apr 2002 11:34:43 -0700615_iso-8859-1 Hi, I'm working on recruiting chanichim for this summer at Gilboa. Since it's parents I'm dealing with, I'm finding myself having to answer questions on the movement-it's nature and political stand. In addition, most parents are asking about our educational program during machane and how individual political views will be dealt with. I have been told by a few parents that they think Habonim has gone too far left in its lack of support of and criticism of Israel and would rather not associate themselves with this movement at this time (and these are people with left-learning politics and some [...] 66801 40 23_Re: Porgram at Machanot0_15_Moshava@aol.com29_Mon, 29 Apr 2002 15:31:46 EDT544_US-ASCII as the registrar at moshava, i occassionaly get the political questions from parents. i am honest and up front with them. i direct them to the hdna web site for a better explanation. i find that parents don't chose our camp because of our political beliefs. they usually want a good jewish camp for their child and only later get involved in the political leanings. i don't get in to political discussions i just pass on the message. its kind of a take it or leave it situation. we are what we are. we are a youth movement and we [...] 66842 16 22_Dennis and STeve Klein0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Mon, 29 Apr 2002 15:36:02 EDT389_US-ASCII Are you guys coming to NY in June???? let me know- sus

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 66859 22 16_workshop reunion19_Orit Lowy Chicherio16_oritil@yahoo.com37_Mon, 29 Apr 2002 12:49:17 -0700 (PDT)545_us-ascii Anyone out there from the 23rd Workshop going to New York? Orit

__________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness http://health.yahoo.com

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 66882 19 26_Re: Dennis and STeve Klein0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Mon, 29 Apr 2002 16:15:21 EDT553_US-ASCII Dennis here. Mary and I want to come. Daughter Rachel is getting married on Long Is. the 22nd. And the calendar is a mess. Is an 11th Workshop lovefest being planned in conjunction with the 50th? Details please. Dennis

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 66902 216 54_DEADLINE MAY 1: - justice and peace in the Middle East0_23_rebshloime@netscape.net31_Mon, 29 Apr 2002 17:01:45 -0400316_iso-8859-1 I received this statement from an old Habonim friend, Maxine Kaufman-Lacusta. Although it came without an email address for a response, I was able to find this one on the net for Lissa Donner: LDONNER@MB.SYMPATICO.CA It didn't bounce back, and so I assume there's a good chance it's the correct one. [...] 67119 214 41_[JPN] Hamas would accept Saudi peace plan0_23_rebshloime@netscape.net31_Mon, 29 Apr 2002 17:04:30 -0400652_iso-8859-1 I received the following from a Jewish list.

Shloime Perel



>>Hamas would accept Saudi peace plan, spokesman says >>Group would stop attacks on Israelis if occupation ends >> >>Robert Plotkin, Chronicle Foreign Service >>Sunday, April 28, 2002 >> >>©2002 San Francisco Chronicle >> >> >>Gaza City -- In a startling move, the militant Islamic movement Hamas >>has accepted the terms of the Saudi peace proposal and is willing to >>stop attacks on Israel if it returns to pre-1967 borders, a Hamas >>spokesman told The Chronicle. >> >>The spokesman, Ismail Abu Shanab, said that if Israel agrees to the >>Saudi plan, [...] 67334 273 23_RE: Porgram at Machanot11_Batel Libes25_batel_libes@earthlink.net31_Mon, 29 Apr 2002 14:26:39 -0700549_US-ASCII The problem is that at the end, the parents pay the bill and they are concerned regarding the message their children might get and bring home with them. As a parent, I would not send my child to a place whose politics I disagree with or find too extreme. Habonim is getting that reputation and is doing so fast. This is not only within the potential parent community, but in the Jewish community at large. Stating our love for Israel is not enough, since all the other camps also profess their love, etc. So where do we differ? In our [...] 67608 51 23_Re: Porgram at Machanot0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com29_Mon, 29 Apr 2002 18:12:08 EDT626_US-ASCII In a message dated 4/29/02 5:28:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, batel_libes@earthlink.net writes:



> I would ask should our machanot chinuch program take a chance of alienating > people and risk going under

There are people on our list who should know this story better than I and perhaps my attempt at it will provoke those who know more to write. In the early sixties, as I understand it, Baltimore Habonim had somewhat near 100 chanichim. Then Habonim participated in picketing a segregated deli and the number of chanichim fell dramatically. It was stories like that which made me proud to [...] 67660 290 23_RE: Porgram at Machanot11_Batel Libes25_batel_libes@earthlink.net31_Mon, 29 Apr 2002 15:24:19 -0700557_US-ASCII I actually agree with Tammy, but wanted to discuss this with others, especially hoping to hear from the Youth, whose movement it is.

The problem on the West Coast, however, is that there is no youth movement, per se (in the Bay Area, there was a single peula this year, and it was purely social). To most parents, who again, pay the bill, their kids go to this place pass the summer. Only after they come to parents' day and their children have spent a summer at "this place," the parents also get bitten by the Habonim "thing" and see [...] 67951 208 12_CSN&Y Review15_Kaufman, Albert26_Albert.Kaufman@METROKC.GOV31_Mon, 29 Apr 2002 15:28:51 -0700696_iso-8859-1 For those from KM Bet 79 at Galil...

Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young enthralls Tacoma Dome crowd Monday, April 29, 2002 By GENE STOUT SEATTLE POST-INTELLIGENCER POP MUSIC CRITIC Blending mellow ballads and fiery rockers, Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young enthralled a mostly baby-boomer crowd with more than three hours of music Sunday night at the Tacoma Dome. CROSBY, STILLS, NASH & YOUNG WHAT: Folk-rock concert <<...OLE_Obj...>> WHEN: Sunday night, April 28 <<...OLE_Obj...>> WHERE: Tacoma Dome <<...OLE_Obj...>> The best was saved for last, including an explosive version of Young's "Rockin' in the Free World" that featured a frenzied guitar [...] 68160 18 26_Re: Dennis and STeve Klein0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Mon, 29 Apr 2002 18:52:52 EDT488_US-ASCII Well- there is a picnic planned in Central park for the workshop gig- and dinner and kumsitz sat niught- them program on sunday....PLEASE COME!!!!! susie

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 68179 194 32_Labor Zionist Solidarity Project13_Joel Winograd15_mail@jelaco.com31_Mon, 29 Apr 2002 15:45:02 -0500600_ISO-8859-1 Hi all,

For the last several months, some concerned Habonim alumni have been putting together a plan to support Israel with body & soul in addition to discursive and philanthropic outlets. Essentially, this consists of short trips to perform community service projects in Israel as a way of support the state under siege and the people in a vision of social justice. We are aiming our initial recruitment efforts at Habonim alumni, ages 20-60. We hope to mobilize many who may feel the days of physical commitment are behind them as well as those younger eager to make a mark. [...] 68374 102 24_Sari Nusseibeh, moderate13_moshe sheskin24_moshes7@netvision.net.il55_Mon, 29 Apr 2002 19:28:25 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time)130_iso-8859-1 I would recommend the following site: From the New Yorker

http://www.newyorker.com/printable/?fact/020506fa_FACT 68477 19 54_FWD: A wave of Jew-bashing- Jacoby in the Boston Globe11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org31_Mon, 29 Apr 2002 19:48:39 -0500432_us-ascii

http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/118/oped/A_wave_of_Jew_bashing_in_Europe+.shtml > >-- >

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 68497 29 9_Nightline0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com29_Mon, 29 Apr 2002 21:07:23 EDT136_US-ASCII I have received word that a ben mesheck Gesher Haziv will be on Nightline tonight. He was stationed in Ramallah until recently. 68527 28 9_Nightline0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com29_Mon, 29 Apr 2002 21:16:35 EDT38_US-ASCII Sorry, his name is Yosi Hill. 68556 263 51_A Light onto Nations in the 21st Century and Beyond0_20_Barrygrushkin@cs.com29_Mon, 29 Apr 2002 22:07:03 EDT619_US-ASCII A Light onto Nations in the 21st Century and Beyond

Thank you again Jeff Jacoby for your insightful Boston Globe column this Sunday, April 28, 2002, (page E7).

Thank you for pointing out in lucid and succinct terms how the nerve toxin fanged snake we call anti-Semitism is once again raising its ugly head in Europe. Once again we feel shock, disgust and indignation. But why? And are these adequate emotions for an adequate response? We are shocked because Jews, Christians and Muslims, at various levels and for differing reasons are all in denial about anti-Semitism in the Civilized and [...] 68820 42 24_Re: The Solidarity Rally12_Fine, Sharon14_FineS@MLHS.ORG31_Mon, 29 Apr 2002 22:11:16 -0400598_windows-1255 Jamie wrote: < *This was a stated pro Israel GOVERNMENT (and hence policy) rally.> For me and most of the people I know who attended, this was a solidarity rally - not with the Israeli government, but with the Israeli people.

I've only discussed this with 2 of the chanichim who were there: my children. They were excited and moved by the show of solidarity, not disappointed. While I was also extremely moved, I *was* disappointed - that by removing themselves [...] 68863 18 55_Re: A Light onto Nations in the 21st Century and Beyond0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Mon, 29 Apr 2002 22:22:07 EDT388_US-ASCII An extraordinary posting. Amen and Hallelujah. Dennis

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 68882 53 24_Re: The Solidarity Rally13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Mon, 29 Apr 2002 22:43:09 -0400577_us-ascii Thank you, Sharon!

I also took 2 chanichim (my kids) and I second everything you said.

Shalom, Judy Gelman

"Fine, Sharon" wrote:

> Jamie wrote: > < *This was a stated pro Israel GOVERNMENT (and hence policy) rally.> > For me and most of the people I know who attended, this was a solidarity > rally - not with the Israeli government, but with the Israeli people. > > campers, perhaps 20 to 50, did attend, and were "disappointed." > > I've only discussed this with 2 of the chanichim who [...] 68936 160 116_=?windows-1255?Q?Fw:_A_reserve_soldiers_account_of_the_past_3_weeks_in_Je?= =?windows-1255?Q?nin:_=F1:_a_must_read?=7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Tue, 30 Apr 2002 00:09:41 +0300450_windows-1255 What is written here tallies with everything else I have heard from my son who fought in Jenin, and from Gedalya's friends and fellow soldiers who fought there as well. pearl

Subject: Fw: A reserve soldiers account of the past 3 weeks in Jenin Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 13:43:44 +0200 I believe there will be more and more of these stories in the next few weeks. It is important that you sent this to as many people as you can. [...] 69097 67 49_Fw: 43 websites about Lag Ba'Omer: what a day!!!!7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Tue, 30 Apr 2002 00:49:11 +0300595_iso-8859-1 Sorry, but I just got this email, as I hear drum beating and smell the bonfires. I can see tens of bonfires burning in the hills and outskirts of M'vaseret and Har Nof.....It is a major miracle that the country is not burned down every year on L'ag B'omer. Since Pesach, children have been hoarding away every scrap of wood, cardboard, newspapers, branches, broken furniture, cartons, tires, old doors, waiting to light the ultimate bonfire. Everywhere you go you see huge pyres, some reaching the impossible heights of at least 4 and 5 meters, and you automatically look to see [...] 69165 76 35_What Labor is Supposed to Stand for9_R. Shultz18_lzac@securenet.net31_Tue, 30 Apr 2002 08:09:29 -0400638_iso-8859-1 An alternative to Sharon's policies Ha'aretz Editorial, April 29. 2002

The Israeli-Palestinian conflict has reached a juncture requiring the Labor Party to leave the government and take up the leadership of the Israeli peace camp, which prefers peace over territories. The security emergency had provided Labor with justifications for staying in the government, including its support for Operation Protective Wall, which was perceived as an irreproachable necessity, especially after the attack in Netanya on the eve of Passover. That has now changed, and Labor must summon up the courage to adapt to developments. [...] 69242 24 24_Re: The Solidarity Rally11_Greg Taylor25_gttaylor@worldnet.att.net31_Tue, 30 Apr 2002 09:47:55 -0400453_windows-1255 Hi Sharon, My son and I were at the rally too and I agree with your assessment. My son sat in the secured area with representatives from the Reform movement while I walked around outside the secured area. We both were moved by number of people at the rally. Neither one of us witnessed any unkindness. I, too, saw people with 'Kahane was Right' signs stand next to "Pro-Israel, Pro-Palestinians, Pro-Peace' signs without any conflict. [...] 69267 198 53_Re: A wave of Jew-bashing- Jacoby in the Boston Globe11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org31_Tue, 30 Apr 2002 09:18:40 -0500409_ISO-8859-1

Done!

09:24:10 -0400



By Jeff Jacoby, 4/28/2002

THE ROCKS have been lifted all over Europe, and the snakes of Jew-hatred are slithering free.

In Belgium, thugs beat up the chief rabbi, kicking him in the face and calling him ''a dirty Jew.'' Two synagogues in Brussels were firebombed; a third, in Charleroi, was sprayed with automatic weapons fire. [...] 69466 186 22_Text of Jacoby article11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org31_Tue, 30 Apr 2002 09:35:04 -0500404_ISO-8859-1

A wave of Jew-bashing in Europe

By Jeff Jacoby, 4/28/2002

HE ROCKS have been lifted all over Europe, and the snakes of Jew-hatred are slithering free.

In Belgium, thugs beat up the chief rabbi, kicking him in the face and calling him ''a dirty Jew.'' Two synagogues in Brussels were firebombed; a third, in Charleroi, was sprayed with automatic weapons fire. [...] 69653 1073 14_Corrected Date11_Jamie Levin22_mazkir@habonimdror.org31_Tue, 30 Apr 2002 12:01:42 -0400333_iso-8859-1





Aleh V'Hagshem,

Jamie Levin Mazkir Tnua Habonim Dror North America

(p) 212-255-1796 (f) 212-929-3459 114 W. 26th St. #1004 NY, NY. 10001

Check out the Virtual Cheder Chinuch, an interactive online database of educational resources. click 'peulot' at www.habonimdror.org

70727 57 22_Re: WHAT IS HAPPENING?0_15_DebALev@aol.com29_Tue, 30 Apr 2002 13:44:22 EDT309_US-ASCII I heard from Brian that my Habonet mail was bouncing bec ause of a full mailbox.....as I said to him, Habonet was the only one of the several lists I'm on that had that problem. Might be a bad shidduch between shamash and AOHELL. Anyway.....

this might be more than anyone wants to hear. [...] 70785 16 12_Re: Maskirut9_Naomi Jay21_naomi_jay@hotmail.com31_Tue, 30 Apr 2002 11:38:35 -0700 70802 79 11_settlements16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Tue, 30 Apr 2002 15:33:30 -0400522_us-ascii In Habonet 2222, Reuven Shultz wrote that

> in 1967 Israel occupied land outside its mandate. > Wrong again, Reuven. The pre-June 4, 1976 lines weren't borders, but cease-fire lines from 1948. (It's tantalizing to think that if the 1948 war had lasted for another few weeks, Israel would have finished conquering all of the Jerusalem area as well as the Gaza strip. What happened, in fact, was that the lines merely reflected where troops happened to be when the UN finally got a cease-fire arranged. [...] 70882 125 46_Re: Settlements are an obstacle to peace??????11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Tue, 30 Apr 2002 15:41:34 -0400356_us-ascii "R. Shultz" wrote:

> Hi Noam, > The entire thrust of the peace process has been called "land for peace." In > 1967 Israel occupied land outside its mandate. ... It isn't necessary to refer to specific words. The > meaning of peace between Israel and the Palestinians implied an end to > Israeli claims over land beyond the green line. [...] 71008 18 22_Re: WHAT IS HAPPENING?0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Tue, 30 Apr 2002 16:13:44 EDT446_US-ASCII Debbie thanks for the update. Don't take "I don't know" or "maybe its..." for an answer. Keep us posted. Dennis

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 71027 230 75_Fw: boston globe (look at line marked with stars)this should be sent around7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Tue, 30 Apr 2002 15:45:02 +0300604_iso-8859-1 FW: boston globe (look at line marked with stars)

Claims of massacre go unsupported by Palestinian fighters

By Charles A. Radin, Globe Staff and Dan Ephron, Globe Correspondent, 4/29/2002

JENIN, West Bank - Palestinian Authority allegations that a large-scale massacre of civilians was committed by Israeli troops during their invasion of the refugee camp here appear to be crumbling under the weight of eyewitness accounts from Palestinian fighters who participated in the battle and camp residents who remained in their homes until the final hours of the fighting. [...] 71258 53 15_The big picture0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Tue, 30 Apr 2002 16:49:29 EDT599_US-ASCII As I continue to read Bernard Lewis' book What Went Wrong it seems clear that the pattern of Arab administration is that the Islamic world is in some sense seen by Islam's adherents as a single organism. Once the vision (perhaps prophecy) of Islam's expansion is sufficiently developed, they foresee an Islamic world following the revelations of the Prophet. The question of who will rule that world remains an open question as each ruler in each country does his best to expand his territory and influence; positioning himself as it were as a contender for the position of unifier of [...]