1 SHAMASH.ORG /usr/www/wwwhc/listserv/archives/habonet February 2002 2 102 16_Ode to Palestine12_Doug Greener25_ddwgreen@netvision.net.il31_Fri, 01 Feb 2002 08:52:40 +0200543_iso-8859-1 From: "Nancy January" To: "Friends and Family" Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 23:03:32 -0600

This is very important and can be accomplished through the internet in a couple of minutes. A Nobel Prize Judge of the Peace Prize is trying to get enough names on a petition (through e-mail it counts) to revoke the Nobel Peace prize that was given to Arafat in 1993. They need at least a million signatures. Please go to the following web site and lend your name www.revoketheprize.org [...] 105 62 15_ARISE AND BUILD11_Sue Freeman19_sfreeman@cfl.rr.com30_Fri, 1 Feb 2002 09:48:03 -0500348_iso-8859-1 Within the past year, the subject of trying to have the book Arise and Build made available again. Would like to know if this has been pursued. Had a copy at one time and would like to get another one for "old times sake." A friend mentioned recently he'd like to have one too, so the interest is there to try to have it reprinted. [...] 168 182 19_Re: The Nobel Prize13_Shloime Perel21_itsmeshloime@yahoo.ca36_Fri, 1 Feb 2002 14:20:53 -0500 (EST)576_us-ascii Shabbat Shalom!

I, for one, am totally against working to deprive Yasser Arafat of his Nobel prize. Are we playing communal war politics here? Why not go down the list of Nobel winners (and for other prizes, too) and see whom we can agitate against.

But what I find really disgusting and tragic is Ariel Sharon's statement that he is sorry not to have killed Arafat in the invasion of Lebanon. But if Yasser has blood on his hands, so does Ariel, plenty of it (and I speak as someone who donates blood every few months). Sharon's statement is what [...] 351 117 19_Re: The Nobel Prize0_13_Mmxmm@aol.com28_Fri, 1 Feb 2002 15:00:37 EST564_US-ASCII In a message dated 2/1/2002 11:22:09 AM Pacific Standard Time, itsmeshloime@yahoo.ca writes:



> Shabbat Shalom! > > I, for one, am totally against working to deprive > Yasser Arafat of his Nobel prize. Are we playing > communal war politics here? Why not go down the list > of Nobel winners (and for other prizes, too) and see > whom we can agitate against. > > But what I find really disgusting and tragic > is Ariel Sharon's statement that he is sorry not to > have killed Arafat in the invasion of Lebanon. But if > Yasser has blood [...] 469 39 23_Get your Urban Chultzot11_Jamie Levin22_mazkir@habonimdror.org30_Fri, 1 Feb 2002 16:14:32 -0500467_iso-8859-1 Shalom Alumni,

The Central Office of HDNA is delighted to offer you our new Urban Chultzah. A blue hooded sweatshirt with a red string and a big white semel and Habonim Dror North America on the back. Get them while they're hot.

The Urban Chultzah is a fundraiser. We are selling them for $40 USD and are happy to take orders now. We have sizes ranging from M - XXL. They are really good quality sweatshirts, not to mention fashionable. [...] 509 195 19_Re: The Nobel Prize13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Fri, 01 Feb 2002 16:56:52 -0500371_us-ascii Dear Shloime,

While we in North America stayed more ideologically "pure"about occupied territories, I think World Habonim distinguished the Golan from the West Bank and Gaza at some point in terms of chaluztiut. Mevo Hama, at the tip of the southern Golan, was built as an Ichud kibbutz with a South African garin as well as bnai meshek from Afikim. [...] 705 23 19_Re: The Nobel Prize0_17_JackNusan@aol.com28_Fri, 1 Feb 2002 18:48:40 EST568_US-ASCII I agree. The IDF soldiers should be nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize. I know something about this. If they are an organization, they can be nominated to the Nobel Academy. Let's do it!

Cheers!



Jack Nusan porter

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 729 30 19_Re: The Nobel Prize0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com28_Fri, 1 Feb 2002 23:08:37 EST27_US-ASCII here, here

760 190 19_RE: The Nobel Prize11_Batel Libes25_batel_libes@earthlink.net30_Fri, 1 Feb 2002 21:26:24 -0800368_us-ascii Hey,

How are you. I was coming into this city earlier this evening and, well here goes: I was telling someone about the summer camp my daughter goes to, and then a car went by with a BoxSet sticker, and I thought about their relationship to Habonim (in a degree of separation kind of way), and here is message from you so I can tell you about it. [...] 951 212 19_RE: The Nobel Prize11_Batel Libes25_batel_libes@earthlink.net30_Fri, 1 Feb 2002 21:47:59 -0800635_us-ascii ooops. didn't intend to bother everyone. -----Original Message----- From: owner-habonet@shamash.org [mailto:owner-habonet@shamash.org]On Behalf Of Batel Libes Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 9:26 PM To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: RE: The Nobel Prize



Hey,

How are you. I was coming into this city earlier this evening and, well here goes: I was telling someone about the summer camp my daughter goes to, and then a car went by with a BoxSet sticker, and I thought about their relationship to Habonim (in a degree of separation kind of way), and here is message from you so I can tell you about it. [...] 1164 46 15_Anti-Democratic27_Maxene and Frank Perlmutter24_habesor@netvision.net.il31_Sat, 02 Feb 2002 07:58:07 +0200438_US-ASCII

Regarding the Israeli reserve soldiers who refuse to serve in the territories:

This is a complex issue with too many aspects to discuss in a short letter. I will not address the issue itself or discuss those in the IDF who have signed the letter declaring that they will refuse to serve in the territories. I am addressing those who are not taking an active role but who express support for the "refuseniks". [...] 1211 49 8_Won't go12_Stan Goldman17_stan@zahav.net.il30_Sat, 2 Feb 2002 10:22:47 +0200206_windows-1255 altghough I am not happy with Israels policy and speakout against it, Is it an ilegal order to send a soldier to the west bank ????? Therefore can my sons refuse to serve where they are sent ?/ 1261 120 4_land16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Sat, 02 Feb 2002 09:10:59 -0500547_us-ascii In Habonet 2136, Shloime Perel wrote, speaking of the West Bank and Gaza areas, that

> In my experience, > these areas were never part of Israel as we conceived > it. > Israel as originally conceived by those who negotiated the Balfour Declaration not only included those areas, but also all of what is now Jordan. After WW I the part now Jordan was lopped off and given to Sherif Hussein by the Brits as a reward for his help to Lawrence of Arabia. (By that time Hussein had been run out of the Arabian peninsula by the Saud [...] 1382 49 10_land redux16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Sat, 02 Feb 2002 09:13:35 -0500364_us-ascii Shloime also wrote that

> "Chalutziut" isn't a word you hear too much > anymore. I've never hear it applied to the occuped > territories. > The book "Yellow Wind," is Israeli journalist Grossman's conversation with West Bank settlers. He notes that the settlers very much saw themselves following in the footsteps of the halutzim of the yishuv era. 1432 56 19_Re: Anti-Democratic0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com28_Sat, 2 Feb 2002 11:22:26 EST598_US-ASCII In a message dated 2/2/02 12:59:04 AM Eastern Standard Time, habesor@netvision.net.il writes:



> It seems to me that refusing to serve in the IDF for reasons of opposition > to a particular policy or the makeup of a particular government is an > undemocratic act.

I'm afraid I don't understand what makes this act an undemocratic one. I assume that the men doing this realize they may be arrested and jailed. It is as undemocratic as any act of civil disobedience would be. Democracy, in the modern sense of the word, is not simply majority rule. Such an idea is [...] 1489 54 19_Re: Anti-Democratic0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com28_Sat, 2 Feb 2002 12:44:56 EST604_US-ASCII In a message dated 2/2/02 8:23:30 AM Pacific Standard Time, Richardrdsmith@aol.com writes:



> As a side- criticism of the refusniks has completely ignored their charges > of being told to abuse Arabs. Certainly no one would defend obviously > illegal orders even if the majority of Israelis support them. >

I may be naive, but I doubt that it is a policy of the Israeli Army to abuse Arabs- but rather an individual reactionary emotion of some particular inept person. I am also sure that if these soldiers felt that they had a valid complaint, there are steps to take [...] 1544 40 19_Re: Anti-Democratic11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Sat, 02 Feb 2002 13:20:45 -0500602_us-ascii LiberHawke@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 2/2/02 8:23:30 AM Pacific Standard Time, Richardrdsmith@aol.com writes: > >> As a side- criticism of the refusniks has completely ignored their charges of being told to abuse Arabs. Certainly no one would defend obviously illegal orders even if the majority of Israelis support them. > > > I may be naive, but I doubt that it is a policy of the Israeli Army to abuse Arabs- but rather an individual reactionary emotion of some particular inept person. I am also sure that if these soldiers felt that they had a valid complaint, there [...] 1585 40 8_Re: land0_18_DLerner569@aol.com28_Sat, 2 Feb 2002 14:30:53 EST603_US-ASCII Eli, The history is marvelous. It stimulates two thoughts: 1. Both Arabs and Jews think of the restoration of the land to national/religious control as a mystical ~ end of days thing, that makes it unhappy but acceptable not to be that position today. Politically our position seems very defensive, we need every scrap we can get to our most expansive historical borders. 2. Contradictorily (my motto is the "the opposite is also true") Since 1967 we have pursued this Mantra of land for peace, and to add incentive we have pursued a policy of continuing appropriation by settlement. Only [...] 1626 27 19_Re: Anti-Democratic0_18_DLerner569@aol.com28_Sat, 2 Feb 2002 14:40:29 EST319_US-ASCII Noam, Afraid I disagree. I can't imagine anything in Judaism that makes it kosher to provide the neighbor who wants to kill you and take your house, with an ax and box of matches. Fairness in the terms of settlement and treaty are fine, even mandatory, but not creating the seeds of your own destruction. [...] 1654 43 19_Re: Anti-Democratic11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Sat, 02 Feb 2002 15:01:52 -0500364_us-ascii DLerner569@aol.com wrote:

> Noam, Afraid I disagree. I can't imagine anything in Judaism that makes it > kosher to provide the neighbor who wants to kill you and take your house, > with an ax and box of matches. Fairness in the terms of settlement and > treaty are fine, even mandatory, but not creating the seeds of your own > destruction. > [...] 1698 19 19_Re: Anti-Democratic0_18_DLerner569@aol.com28_Sat, 2 Feb 2002 17:08:16 EST437_US-ASCII Noam, My point is, what's the alternative. I recognize the disaster. What does one do about it? Dennis

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 1718 114 18_Arabs paying taxes7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Sat, 02 Feb 2002 23:47:11 +0200656_iso-8859-1 In answer to your question: The local governing authority, the municipality or area council, is responsible for collecting taxes, not the national government. I am referring to what we call "arnona," the municipality tax for local services (garbage collection, street lighting, sidewalks, street repair, water supply, parks, gardening of public areas, etc.) The problem is multi-faceted and can be a result of some of the following factors: 1. an "unrecognized" village, gerrybuilt illegally on State land, obviously would not have a municipal authority to collect taxes. 2. the makeup of an arab village or town is of chamulot -- extended [...] 1833 68 26_95% of Arabs under PA rule7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Sun, 03 Feb 2002 00:10:45 +0200421_iso-8859-1 Noam, Re your next to last sentence: Some 95% of the Arabs of Judea and Samaria and Gaza live under Palestinian Authority rule. Only approximately 5% of the Arab population is under our jurisdiction (of the Arabs conquered in 1967). pearl ----- Original Message ----- From: Noam Stopak To: Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2002 8:20 PM Subject: Re: Anti-Democratic [...] 1902 151 22_RE: Arabs paying taxes11_Batel Libes25_batel_libes@earthlink.net30_Sat, 2 Feb 2002 15:47:33 -0800571_iso-8859-1 Thank you, Pearl, for the extensive explanation. The problem with taxes and Israeli economy has been around probably as long as Israel has. As long as I can recall, it had to deal with two economies: above and below the table, as it's called. I can't think of any other country besides Israel that published the Black Market currency value in the newspapers. Much of this has to do with the collective memory of having to pay taxes, mostly to the Tzar's régime. But that issue is independent of the one at hand and we can probably have lengthy discussion [...] 2054 30 33_Question about the news in Israel13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Sat, 02 Feb 2002 21:27:05 -0500400_us-ascii Dear Israelis on Habonet,

Haaretz online has the following one line news note today:

"IDF troops throw stun grenades at left-wing protesters in Ramallah on Saturday"

No details are given.

Combined with the refusal of 100 officers to serve in the West Bank, this seems like an extraordinary turn of events. Could someone enlighten us as to what is happening? [...] 2085 45 19_Re: The Nobel Prize0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com28_Sat, 2 Feb 2002 22:05:08 EST212_US-ASCII In a message dated 2/1/02 11:09:27 PM Eastern Standard Time, Richardrdsmith@aol.com writes:



> here, here >

I meant hear, hear

(Thank you very much first cousin once removed.) 2131 58 19_Re: Anti-Democratic0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com28_Sat, 2 Feb 2002 22:11:04 EST602_US-ASCII In a message dated 2/2/02 10:24:45 AM Pacific Standard Time, stopak@orionsci.com writes:



> What i find anti-democratic is Israel's > continued rule over people who have no opportunity for self > determination. I continue to believe that this is a cancer which is > poisoning to soul of Israel and the Jewish people. > > Oh PLEASE, PLEASE, NOAM-- Self determination is a state of mind (excuse the pun)- and at the risk of sounding snide, the Palestinians have no desire for self determination unless it is in the form of suicide bombers--Why don't they just offer a hand in [...] 2190 23 28_refusenikim anti-democratic?11_Lon Ephraim14_cbma@erols.com31_Sun, 03 Feb 2002 01:01:30 -0800398_us-ascii Isn't it an important distinction that the refusenikim are in the miluim? Who knows how many times they have already served? It seems to me that what they are doing takes so much courage. What is said in Israel these days about those who've refused to serve all along for religious reasons? If the term anti-democratic is to be used to describe a group, they fit the bill in my book. [...] 2214 50 61_Statement of Officers Objecting to Service in the Territories9_R. Shultz18_lzac@securenet.net30_Sun, 3 Feb 2002 02:10:56 -0500386_iso-8859-1 . We, reserve combat officers and soldiers of the Israel Defense Forces,

. who were raised upon the principles of Zionism, sacrifice and giving to the people of Israel and to the State of Israel, who have always served in the front lines, and who were the first to carry out any mission, light or heavy, in order to protect the State of Israel and strengthen it. [...] 2265 128 11_Monthly FAQ12_Jennifer Kay19_kay@elvis.rowan.edu31_Sun, 03 Feb 2002 02:32:02 -0500415_- Actually-from:brianscoop@aol.com

Hi Chevre,

Here is a reminder of the "essential" commands that you can use to configure your subscription to Habonet. I will post this monthly from now on. Please note -- The address for commands is: listproc@shamash.org whereas the address for posts to the list is: habonet@shamash.org If you need any help with any of it, send me an email: brianscoop@aol.com [...] 2394 156 19_Re: Anti-Democratic19_Elinore Koenigsfeld19_elinore@macam.ac.il30_Sun, 3 Feb 2002 10:20:19 +0200393_iso-8859-1 Dear LiberHawke (Susie Freed?)

What is all this "they" "they" "they" ??? Generalizations are dehumanizing--just what we hate as Jews, as women, as Americans, as older sisters, etc. etc.

When we give each other respect as human beings we can begin to build a future together. How many Palestinians do you know? Work with? Listen to? Wake up and smell the flowers. [...] 2551 17 19_Re: Anti-Democratic0_18_DLerner569@aol.com28_Sun, 3 Feb 2002 11:23:17 EST413_US-ASCII Do you answer the questions you ask? How many Palestinians do you know? Dennis

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 2569 57 23_RE: HABONET digest 213727_Maxene and Frank Perlmutter24_habesor@netvision.net.il31_Sun, 03 Feb 2002 18:49:28 +0200665_us-ascii Richard Smith wrote:

"I'm afraid I don't understand what makes this act an undemocratic one."

Actrually it is quite simple. In a democracy, where legitimate avenues of disagreement are available, and where someone has the opportunity to persuade a majority to adopt policies she/he advocates, then not using such avenues an attempting to impose your views on the majority is an undemocratic act. When elements of the Israeli right advised IDF soldiers not to obey orders to dismantle Jewish settlements they were acting in an undemocratic way. When Yitzhak Rabin was assassinated, along with committing murder, the assassin was imposing [...] 2627 49 30_Re: 95% of Arabs under PA rule11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Sun, 03 Feb 2002 13:00:21 -0500433_us-ascii Skolnik wrote:

> Noam, > Re your next to last sentence: Some 95% of the Arabs of Judea and Samaria > and Gaza live under Palestinian Authority rule. Only approximately 5% of > the Arab population is under our jurisdiction (of the Arabs conquered in > 1967). > pearl

Pearl,

I don't consider those conditions either self-rule or acceptable. I have a hard time believing you would accept them either. [...] 2677 95 36_Fwd: Palestinians- Answer to Elinore0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com28_Sun, 3 Feb 2002 13:12:51 EST547_US-ASCII In a message dated 2/3/02 10:06:41 AM Pacific Standard Time, LiberHawke writes:



> > Hi- it's me ( susie)- Well- I don't know any Palestinians personally- so I > have to rely on their public actions- which- to date- to me, at least, are > devoid of any hint of peace-seeking. I have not lost my hopes and dreams, > but in light of their ( and I use "them" as the English pronoun, since I > don't want to keep repeating the word "Palestinian") public educational and > "print" words that they - as a group - want Israel [...] 2773 69 7_To Noam0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com28_Sun, 3 Feb 2002 13:44:54 EST476_US-ASCII In a message dated 2/3/02 10:06:22 AM Pacific Standard Time, stopak@orionsci.com writes:



> You insist the > Palestinians should be building houses - in a situation where > houses are often demolished in collective punishment actions > I can't imagine that I would do much building. Your sweeping > generalizations sound a lot like the mobs you decry and the > hate you project sounds the same as that which you ascribe > to Arafat and the PA. > > [...] 2843 120 23_Re: HABONET digest 21370_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com28_Sun, 3 Feb 2002 14:02:12 EST395_US-ASCII In a message dated 2/3/02 11:50:24 AM Eastern Standard Time, habesor@netvision.net.il writes:



In a democracy, where legitimate avenues of disagreement are available, and where someone has the opportunity to persuade a majority to adopt policies she/he advocates, then not using such avenues an attempting to impose your views on the majority is an undemocratic act. [...] 2964 28 23_Re: HABONET digest 21370_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com28_Sun, 3 Feb 2002 14:05:37 EST60_US-ASCII I apologize for the font problems in the last post. 2993 69 30_Re: 95% of Arabs under PA rule7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Sun, 03 Feb 2002 21:44:45 +0200447_iso-8859-1 noam, There are over 100,000 illegally built homes in the arab sectors -- only a few dozen houses have been destroyed: those that were built on land set for public use, those that were used as combat houses or had tunnels dug underneath for arms smuggling, those that were used as hideouts for terrorists. It is not so easy to get a tzav harisa (destruction permit) for a house. Whose side are you on, whose side are you on? pearl [...] 3063 79 23_Re: HABONET digest 21377_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Sun, 03 Feb 2002 21:47:13 +0200664_iso-8859-1 Frankie, an excellent response and you hit it on the head every time! pearl

----- Original Message ----- From: Maxene and Frank Perlmutter To: Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2002 6:49 PM Subject: RE: HABONET digest 2137



> Richard Smith wrote: > > "I'm afraid I don't understand what makes this act an undemocratic one." > > Actrually it is quite simple. In a democracy, where legitimate avenues of > disagreement are available, and where someone has the opportunity to > persuade a majority to adopt policies she/he advocates, then not using such > avenues an attempting to impose [...] 3143 209 22_Re: Arabs paying taxes7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Sun, 03 Feb 2002 22:13:12 +0200608_iso-8859-1 shalom, The issue of entering Arab villages and fulfilling the law is a very complicated issue, a hot potato for Israel. I know that there are reductions in municipality taxes for many sectors of the population -- being over sixty I am one of them that benefits. There are also single-parent families, disabled, families with many children, bereaved families, yeshiva students (this may have been cancelled), new immigrants -- all who benefit from p'tor malei (complete cancellation of tax) or from reduction in tax. Liens can be put on salary or bank accounts of those who do not pay taxes. [...] 3353 18 11_Bruce Arbit0_15_AvivaMT@aol.com28_Sun, 3 Feb 2002 19:00:35 EST462_US-ASCII If anyone knows Bruce Arbit's email address or if Bruce is reading this, please contact me privately at AvivaMT@aol.com



------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 3372 59 14_Re: land redux13_Shloime Perel21_itsmeshloime@yahoo.ca36_Sun, 3 Feb 2002 21:48:50 -0500 (EST)621_us-ascii Greetings!

I was at a lecture/discussion with David Grossman in Montreal, soon after his book, "The Yellow Wind" was published, and he didn't say anything to lead me to believe that anything approaching the majority of settlers think of themselves as chalutzim.

It's widely known that the settlers (they don't call themselves "chalutzim")are on the West Bank, Gaza and the Golan largely for either economic or religious reasons. Those who are there to build a new society want that society to be a theocracy. They relate not to the Second Aliya and the kibbutz movement but to their notion of [...] 3432 97 14_Re: land redux13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Sun, 03 Feb 2002 23:51:24 -0500580_us-ascii Dear Shloime,

My experience with settlers is limited but in that limited experience I have met with Amos Harel when he was head of the Yesha counsel and he certainly presents himself and his community of Ariel as being the modern equivalent to the chalutzim. In 1999, he was very proud that his oldest son was part of the mitzpe movement and had moved to a trailer on a nearby hilltop. THe comparison to building a stockade in a single night during the Yishuv seemed ridiculous when you see mitzpe established just a few weeks before that consists of several [...] 3530 57 26_Re: hope for a real future19_Elinore Koenigsfeld19_elinore@macam.ac.il30_Mon, 4 Feb 2002 13:39:24 +0200542_iso-8859-1 In answer to Dennis' questions. I live in Israel and have a few Palestinian friends. I teach in the largest teachers' college, which has Arabs on the staff and now Arab students are making up as much as 25% of the incoming classes (no one knows why). I did research on "Freedom of the Press in the Palestinian Entitiy" for my masters degree and talked to many Palestinian reporters. I have many friends much more active than I have been in trying to build positive ties, but I am determined to become more active than before. [...] 3588 67 15_Home demolition13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Mon, 04 Feb 2002 07:54:06 -0500585_us-ascii Dear Pearl,

How does this latest demolition fit your theory that it is always for security? 15 in one month in East Jerusalem could all be for security but if so, why does the municipality say it is because the construction was without permits? I understand that it is very difficult and expensive for Israeli Arabs to get permits in East Jerusalem and that almost all the recent construction has been done without permits. Does that mean that Olmert can tear down most new homes built my Arab Israelis in his municipality on this pretense? As a Jew, that bothers [...] 3656 22 33_Brazil Habonim Chaver in Montreal9_R. Shultz18_lzac@securenet.net30_Mon, 4 Feb 2002 10:16:27 -0500440_iso-8859-1 is looking for Habonim Chevra in Montreal.

his email address is

fsimon@uol.com.br



------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 3679 131 19_Re: Home demolition7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Mon, 04 Feb 2002 18:30:54 +0200639_iso-8859-1 Judy, In answer to your question: There are more than 20,000 illegally built houses in the Arab sector of Jerusalem. One house that I know was torn down recently was one built on public land that was set aside for a street or school (can't remember which). These buildings are at different stages of construction, not necessarily inhabited. I do not recall hearing of 15 houses being destroyed this month in E.Jerusalem. Since E.Jerusalem is very quiet I would suspect that these demolitions were for illegally built structures or those built without engineering supervision, thus being potentially dangerous structures. I [...] 3811 116 37_Re: land redux: answer to shlomo Perl7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Tue, 05 Feb 2002 01:20:50 +0200546_iso-8859-1 I have never seen more nonsense parading as truth in my life. A virtual compendium of lashon hara, based on what??? 1. The vast majority of people living over the green line are non-religious, and not as you intimate.. 2. Economically, many are in very poor shape. There is cheaper housing enabling people who would have no other means to find a home to have a place to live. If living in a caravan or an eshkobit is your idea of "economic reason for living over the green line," than you have never set foot in one or the other. [...] 3928 1052 19_Re: Home Demolition13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Mon, 04 Feb 2002 18:21:32 -0500551_us-ascii Dear Pearl,

There are legal building disputes here all the time and they are handled through

1) occupancy permits being withheld until safety problems are solved 2) fines 3) private lawsuits

About 20 years ago, a building in the area was built that violated the height restrictions. After years in court during which the building could not be occupied, the owners were given the choice of tearing off the two top floors or paying a very steep fine. They paid the fine. THat is the typical result in cases in the US. [...] 4981 49 26_Re: which side are you on?11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Mon, 04 Feb 2002 21:12:19 -0500499_us-ascii Skolnik wrote:

> noam, > ... > Whose side are you on, whose side are you on? > pearl

I'm on the side of truth and justice. Sometimes I need help finding the truth and sometimes it is completely clear to me. I'm on the side of those who are working for peace, no matter what their nationality or religion or geographical location. Sometimes this means I am not happy with what Israelis or Americans do. More often it means I'm not happy with what Palestinians do and say. [...] 5031 25 26_Re: hope for a real future0_18_DLerner569@aol.com28_Mon, 4 Feb 2002 22:38:33 EST622_US-ASCII Thank you for your thoughtful response. While the need for secure borders is obvious, the need for establishing the common humanity of Jews for Palestinians and Palestinians for Jews is the only real answer. It is the self protective nature of our genes to assign the worst characteristics of individuals to the character of all the members of a group of strangers. It is only through one to one contact that one can begin to build real understanding, acceptance and respect. While frustrations and failure abound in this process, responding to hatred and prejudice with kindness, openness, self respect and [...] 5057 22 30_Jewish Education Job Available0_15_DenaSol@aol.com29_Mon, 04 Feb 2002 22:42:04 EST372_ISO-8859-1 To Whomever is Considering Applying for the Education Director's Position at Adat Shalom in the Washington, DC area (it's really in Bethesda):

Judy Gelman solicited inquires. I would strongly recommend that you email us at this address before you apply. There are many reasons why you want to avoid working at Adat Shalom. There is so much to tell. [...] 5080 53 26_Re: which side are you on?19_Elinore Koenigsfeld19_elinore@macam.ac.il30_Tue, 5 Feb 2002 11:04:00 +0200544_ISO-8859-1 Noam--a heartening answer to "Who's side?"--and helpful, too, as I've been asked that when I protested injustices....



> Skolnik wrote: > > > noam, > > ... > > Whose side are you on, whose side are you on? > > pearl > > I'm on the side of truth and justice. Sometimes I need help finding > the truth and sometimes it is completely clear to me. I'm on the > side of those who are working for peace, no matter what their > nationality or religion or geographical location. Sometimes this > means I am not happy with [...] 5134 750 12_Ami Ayalon I15_Leo Diesendruck18_leodie@isdn.net.il30_Tue, 5 Feb 2002 12:51:02 +0200610_us-ascii I am pasting in a discussion of the recent ideas of Ami Ayalon, retired head of Israel's secret service. In a separate letter I will paste in a discussion of Ayalon by Dan Margalit, well known journalist.

Prof. L. Diesendruck Nofei Hasharon 408 Petach Tikva Rd. 7 Netanya, 42461 Israel



On December 4th, Ami Ayalon, former head of Shin Bet, spoke against "separation" from the Palestinians. "Is the option of a Jewish democracy with apartheid acceptable? In my view, it is not," he said. Ignored by the media, but very clear on the TV and radio recordings of his statements, [...] 5885 1529 13_Ami Ayalon II15_Leo Diesendruck18_leodie@isdn.net.il30_Tue, 5 Feb 2002 12:52:39 +02001742_us-ascii

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New technology makes learning Hebrew on CD-ROM fun [...] 7415 81 46_Frank - can you please explain a thing or two?11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Tue, 05 Feb 2002 09:52:02 -0500427_us-ascii Maxene and Frank Perlmutter wrote:

> Brian, > > I don't think that we differ very much on what we consider to be right and > wrong. ... > > ... > > Brian one could argue (I don't) that the following reflects your being a > product of a domineering western civilization. You wrote: > > "But for me the far more important question is, What could I/we do (or have > done) that could make things different." > [...] 7497 334 15_HonestReporting12_Doug Greener25_ddwgreen@netvision.net.il31_Tue, 05 Feb 2002 11:58:00 +0200370_windows-1255 It strikes me that some Habonet subscribers would like to know about the HonestReporting list, since they are so zealous in pursuing "truth asnd justice" (I would have added "and the American way," but this is not so PC these days).

Doug Greener



HonestReporting Communique 05 February 2002

"SPIN AT THE TIMES"

* * * [...] 7832 137 19_Fw: World War Three19_Elinore Koenigsfeld19_elinore@macam.ac.il30_Wed, 6 Feb 2002 00:04:24 +0200544_windows-1255 Hope this makes you laugh, too--

Subject: Fwd: Fw: World War Three



> > At the Russian War College, a general is a guest lecturer and tells the class of officers that the session will focus on potential problems and the resulting strategies.

> > > > One of the officers in the class begins by asking the first question, > > "Will we have to fight in a World War Three?" > > > > "Yes, comrades, it looks like you will," > > answers the general. > > > > "And who will be our enemy, Comrade General?" [...] 7970 47 19_Re: HonestReporting0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com28_Tue, 5 Feb 2002 17:16:05 EST548_US-ASCII How can you attack the New York Times for printing an article, an op-ed piece, by one of the leading news makers in the world? It is the job of a newspaper to present news and various opinions. I admit to not being familiar with Honest Reporting but I remember another organization called FLAME, I think, that claimed the same mandate that HR is claiming. They would attack any news item that could in any way be seen as possibly showing Israel in a bad light. Essentially if any news item from the Middle East did not point out that [...] 8018 47 19_Re: HonestReporting11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Tue, 05 Feb 2002 17:21:00 -0500580_us-ascii Doug Greener wrote:

> It strikes me that some Habonet subscribers would like to know about the HonestReporting list, since they are so zealous in pursuing "truth asnd justice" (I would have added "and the American way," but this is not so PC these days). Doug Greener HonestReporting Communique > 05 February 2002 > > "SPIN AT THE TIMES" > > * * * > > Dear HonestReporting Member, > > ... > > We also question The Times' daily e-mail update sent to subscribers, "Today's Headlines from > NYTimes.com." On Feb. 3, the lead article in the International section [...] 8066 880 13_Fighting Back12_Doug Greener25_ddwgreen@netvision.net.il31_Wed, 06 Feb 2002 08:20:44 +0200387_windows-1255 A few of you have expressed interest in the Israeli policy of attacking senior Palestinian military officers and terrorist planners, rather than civilians and simple foot soldiers who would probably rather be back home on the farm. This is another justification of that policy.





Who Are the Real Assassins

in the Palestine Israel Conflict? [...] 8947 115 34_home destruction in East Jerusalem7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Tue, 05 Feb 2002 22:49:54 +0200683_windows-1255 I hope this answers Judy's questions regarding demolition in Arab areas. This article appeared today in the Jerusalem Post:

Jerusalem municipality bulldozers yesterday demolished two illegally built Arab-owned buildings in the East Jerusalem neighborhood of Isawiya. The demolitions of the two uninhabited homes came after the Jerusalem District Court rejected an appeal by the owners against the demolitions. Jerusalem police fired tear gas at villagers who pelted the policemen with stones as they left the area. The two privately owned homes that were razed were built in an area where no construction is allowed, according to the municipality. They were [...] 9063 16 19_Re: HonestReporting0_15_DebALev@aol.com28_Wed, 6 Feb 2002 12:32:26 EST343_US-ASCII



------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 9080 115 22_Which side are you on?15_Kaufman, Albert26_Albert.Kaufman@METROKC.GOV30_Wed, 6 Feb 2002 09:38:39 -0800477_iso-8859-1 FLORENCE REECE (1930s)

Come all you good workers, Good news to you I'll tell Of how the good old union Has come in here to dwell.

CHORUS: Which side are you on? Which side are you on? Which side are you on? Which side are you on?

My dady was a miner, And I'm a miner's son, And I'll stick with the union 'Til every battle's won. They say in Harlan County There are no neutrals there. You'll either be a union man Or a thug for J. H. Blair. [...] 9196 216 14_Re: land redux13_Shloime Perel21_itsmeshloime@yahoo.ca36_Wed, 6 Feb 2002 13:18:46 -0500 (EST)575_us-ascii Shalom Judy,

Thanks a lot for your response. Were you, by chance, ever in Camp Kvutza, north of Montreal, in the

1960s. I seem to remember one or two Gelmans, there, one summer.

It's true that soon after the Six Day War, there was a kind of chalutziut on the West Bank and the Golan. I believe there were a couple of instances on the West Bank of people reestablishing kibbutzim which had been there before 1949. In the instance of the Golan, I don't know what was the motivation -- possibly the idea a kibbutz could somehow strengthen the [...] 9413 20 19_Re: HonestReporting0_15_DebALev@aol.com28_Wed, 6 Feb 2002 13:30:33 EST581_US-ASCII Yes, that WAS a blank message I sent to the list. Sorry about that...I'm on my mother's IMac and it does strange things. Come to think of it, so do I, but that's another story......

Debbie whose mother has a computer with a mind of its own

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 9434 110 21_Re: : Home demolition12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Wed, 06 Feb 2002 20:42:56 +0200587_us-ascii



Pearl, I find it trying to read Habonet and a bother to engage in the discussion. You are my bugbear. To argue with you is to have one's loyalty impugned, to find fault with your logic is to subject oneself to a diatribe, to question your facts is to be treated to a harangue. You never state a position backing it up briefly with support from an authoritative source, instead you heap incredible amounts of hearsay, anecdotal material or ex cathedra pronouncements upon members of the list . In Hebrew, when one speaks of circumlocution in a debate, it is [...] 9545 55 19_Re: ARISE AND BUILD14_Tana Hemingway16_tanah@zianet.com31_Wed, 06 Feb 2002 19:15:15 -0700182_us-ascii

--- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.303 / Virus Database: 164 - Release Date: 11/24/01 9601 83 39_Fwd: Urgent--Thank the President -- now14_Tana Hemingway16_tanah@zianet.com31_Wed, 06 Feb 2002 19:39:28 -0700627_us-ascii

>Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 10:57:30 -0500 >From: "Nancy, Maggie, Danielle & Bruce" > >Subject: Urgent--Thank the President -- now >Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 10:25:32 -0500 > > We have been told by our friends in Washington that the >White House is receiving very significant numbers of emails >protesting President Bush's strong support for Israel. It is >of the utmost importance that we show our support for the >President's pro-Israel stand. NOW! > > ACTIONS >1. Pass this on to all your Jewish and pro-Israel email >lists. >2. Write a short, personal email to the President -- Have [...] 9685 137 23_RE: HABONET digest 214027_Maxene and Frank Perlmutter24_habesor@netvision.net.il31_Thu, 07 Feb 2002 07:42:13 +0200606_us-ascii Noam asked:

"If you don't intend to make the point why are you writing it? I surely don't understand how this "reflects your being a product of a domineering western civilization". Can you explain?"

I intended to make a point or two, only not that one. I suppose I was hoping to illustrate how using what might be called leftist-anticolonial rhetoric is just sloganeering rather than meaningful analysis, at least that's what I had in mind when I wrote that comment. I recognize that the passage in question may have been too subtle for this particular media of discourse. I'll [...] 9823 100 23_Re: HABONET digest 21400_18_Brianscoop@aol.com28_Thu, 7 Feb 2002 01:59:46 EST448_US-ASCII Frank writes:

> And my point is that we can't control everything. The opposition in the > conflict also exercises a degree of control. The conflict's shape is a > consequence of the actions and interactions of both sides. ... > ... it seems to me that only someone who chooses to totally ignore the role > of the Arabs in the conflict would make the kind of factually incorrect > statement that was made in Brian's comment #3. [...] 9924 42 23_Re: HABONET digest 21400_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com28_Thu, 7 Feb 2002 04:36:38 EST318_US-ASCII In a message dated 2/7/02 2:00:45 AM Eastern Standard Time, Brianscoop@aol.com writes:



> Fighting violence with bigger violence has only ever lead to more violence. >

While I agree with nearly everything Brian said, this statement is obviously not true. If it were, wars would never end. 9967 34 23_Re: HABONET digest 21400_18_Brianscoop@aol.com28_Thu, 7 Feb 2002 08:50:16 EST542_US-ASCII I Wrote (among other things):

>> Fighting violence with bigger violence has >> only ever lead to more violence.

To which, Rich succinctly replied: > While I agree with nearly everything Brian said, this > statement is obviously not true. If it were, wars would never end.

This is a good point of course. I was referring however to the specific conflict, and perhaps others of this nature, which are, in part, defined by the fact that there is no *realistic* way to deliver an "ultimate" threat of any kind. [...] 10002 160 25_Don't thank the President15_Kaufman, Albert26_Albert.Kaufman@METROKC.GOV30_Thu, 7 Feb 2002 09:20:37 -0800418_iso-8859-1 This was on the list yesterday.

>I thank you for your strong and unwavering support of our >ally Israel and the rights of Jews and civilized persons >everywhere to live without fear of terrorism.

>>How about the Palestinians right to live without fear of terrorism? I don't think this issue is one-sided at all anymore. And I don't think it's not supporting Israel to look at both sides. [...] 10163 23 29_Re: Don't thank the President0_15_DebALev@aol.com28_Thu, 7 Feb 2002 13:30:00 EST439_US-ASCII Albert.....t hat posting on Habonet yesterday was the third one I've received, so it does seem to be making the rounds. I agree with you, of course, and frankly, given the behavior of George W "goniff" Shrub, nothing any body says is going to make one bit of difference to him. After all, he has Ashcroft doing his best to erode all of our civil liberties, folks like Ken Lay stealing from the poor to give to the rich, etc. [...] 10187 27 29_Re: Don't thank the President9_CarmiDave20_carmdave@urim.org.il30_Thu, 7 Feb 2002 22:41:22 +0200332_iso-8859-1 Debbie and Albert,

The purpose of the petition, as I understand it, is not to garnish support for Dubya. Instead, it is to garnish US support for Israel. Despite one's view of Dubya's administration, good or bad, the intention is for a good cause, which, I assume, is in the interest of Habonet participants. [...] 10215 27 29_Re: Don't thank the President0_15_DebALev@aol.com28_Thu, 7 Feb 2002 17:21:42 EST622_US-ASCII

In a message dated 2/7/02 3:44:45 PM, carmdave@urim.org.il writes:

<<

Speaking of supporting Israel, I hope all of you are seriously

considering visiting Israel this spring/summer..... >>

Still waiting for you to send me a ticket, sweetie!

DLev

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 10243 138 44_Eleven degrees of Separation , A.B. Yehoshua11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org30_Thu, 7 Feb 2002 20:52:58 -0600516_us-ascii Eleven degrees of separation

The principal theme of Zionism was and remains the establishment of borders within which it will be possible to maintain Jewish sovereignty. This is also the only way out of the violent spiral we are caught in: the creation of a defended, temporary border between the Palestinians and us. The major obstacle is the settlement enterprise, which is holding nine million Israelis and Palestinians hostage. No more. Following are 11 principles for unilateral separation [...] 10382 28 13_"Liquidation"12_Doug Greener25_ddwgreen@netvision.net.il31_Thu, 07 Feb 2002 21:49:47 +0200616_iso-8859-1 ~ U.S. ASSASSINATION PROGRAM PROVES EFFICIENT Several senior al Qaeda leaders who had gathered for a meeting in mountainous eastern Afghanistan were killed by a missile from a CIA drone plane, U.S. government sources said yesterday. The Hellfire missile, fired Monday night from an unmanned Predator, was aimed at the men as they greeted one another outside their SUVs, one source said. Five or six people appeared to be dead, the source said. Previous hits on al Qaeda leaders have been followed by radio chatter about their deaths. But this time, al Qaeda's radios have been silent - deepening the [...] 10411 88 17_supporting Israel15_Kaufman, Albert26_Albert.Kaufman@METROKC.GOV30_Fri, 8 Feb 2002 09:14:42 -0800332_iso-8859-1 Debbie and Albert,

The purpose of the petition, as I understand it, is not to garnish support for Dubya. Instead, it is to garnish US support for Israel. Despite one's view of Dubya's administration, good or bad, the intention is for a good cause, which, I assume, is in the interest of Habonet participants. [...] 10500 47 13_urban legend?0_15_DebALev@aol.com28_Fri, 8 Feb 2002 15:41:40 EST630_US-ASCII

OK, here's a post to the urban legends listserv.

Does anyone know if this is true?

Thanks and a hearty Shabbat Shalom from sunny Cincinnati.

Debbie





Comment: I tried searching on your site for this rumor but I didn't find it, (my apologies if you have already heard it).

I have had a few different people tell me that they heard (of course they can't remember from where) that Isreali air planes are equipped with two doors separating the cockpit from the passenger section of the plane. After entering the first door, there is a small chamber you must pass [...] 10548 53 17_Re: urban legend?0_23_stuhlman@mindspring.com31_Fri, 08 Feb 2002 16:13:52 -0500352_- Never heard of the poison gas thing. El Al was the only airline with reinforced (and bulletproof?) cockpit doors. Their set up is the model that all US airliners will follow. Wouldn't suprise me if the pilots carry firearms, either.

Sam





habonet@shamash.org wrote: > OK, here's a post to the urban legends listserv. [...] 10602 20 22_To Chicago area chevre0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com28_Fri, 8 Feb 2002 19:46:34 EST331_US-ASCII We have been tryng to locate Judy Glasner, from the 11th Workshop- originally from Baltimore. And I finally found a Judith Glasner who is a VP at Itasca Bank and Turst - Can anyone in Chicago see if this is Judy???? The last I heard from her was in 1984!!!- Please email me privately- Thanks sue-- liberhawke@aol.com [...] 10623 115 23_U.S. support for Israel12_Allison Guri21_alli@netvision.net.il31_Sat, 09 Feb 2002 00:21:48 +0200613_windows-1255 My name is Allison Guri (formerly Sarnow). I went to camp Galil in the 70's and 80's. I have been living in Israel more or less since Workshop in 1984.

I read the petition endorsing the Bush administration's support for Israel. As an Israeli I think Bush's Middle East policies are a disaster for us and for the Palestinians. While I understand the motivations of some American Jews, who feel obligated to support Israel regardless of its repressive policies in the occupied territories, this blind loyalty is misguided. It is based on the assumption that unbridled support for Israel is [...] 10739 42 23_RE: HABONET digest 214227_Maxene and Frank Perlmutter24_habesor@netvision.net.il31_Sat, 09 Feb 2002 14:45:59 +0200420_us-ascii Brian:

Here are three throwaway lines that I am willing to discuss at any time.

1) I supported the Oslo process and despite its failure to bring peace I still think that it was a very good idea worthy of support.

2) If we restrict our focus to just what we did and do, or refrain from examining history from all aspects, including that of "the other side", we may never achieve peace. [...] 10782 16 29_Re: Don't thank the President0_18_Brianscoop@aol.com29_Sat, 09 Feb 2002 11:15:10 EST337_ISO-8859-1 "support for israel" needs to be defined. otherwise we find ourselves back in the "israel-right-or-wrong" era of 15-20 years ago. the role of habonim, and the left in general, has always been to push that definition of what's right and to support that loudly and clearly, while equally clearly, criticizing what's wrong. [...] 10799 32 27_Re: U.S. support for Israel0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com28_Sat, 9 Feb 2002 13:37:35 EST573_US-ASCII Dear Allison- Funny- while I have moved more "right" since my old "chanicha" days- some of the people on this list have moved more "left"- But the bottom line is, I think, that we all agree that "Israel," both inside the borders of the Middle East, and outside- whether it be in the US or anywhere else, needs to remain focused on our moral, ethical and historical value system. While it may be difficult in the midst of such a terrible situation-in the midst of terrorism - in the midst of being attacked daily and threatened with annihilation-we must still [...] 10832 45 26_Re: To Chicago area chevre7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Sat, 09 Feb 2002 20:04:52 +0200507_iso-8859-1 Hi Sue, Isn't her family still in Baltimore who could tell where she is? She also had a sister Ruthie, if I recall correctly. If you locate her please give her my regards -- I remember her well. By the way, there is a doctor across the street from me named Benjamin Glazer, from the States. Does the name ring a bell with you? All the best. Hope all is well on your end. I have to be in New York for my niece's wedding on June 23, but don't think I can take off three full weeks of vacation [...] 10878 39 25_Don't Thank the Americans16_Marc Hershkowitz21_marchersh@hotmail.com31_Sun, 10 Feb 2002 06:08:01 +0000444_- My name is Marc Hershkowitz, I was on the 31st workshop on Kibbutz Grofit, and lived on Kibbutz Tuval from 1990-1998 (not to mention my time on Ravid and Gal Hadash). I now live outside of Washington DC.

Allison...your words made me feel as if I was speaking them myself. Although I no longer live in Israel, I still feel quite Israeli, and I too, think that there are too many misguided American Jews who blindly support Israel. [...] 10918 214 50_Fw: response: Re: : Home demolition (Amnon Hadary)7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Sun, 10 Feb 2002 01:16:07 +0200619_iso-8859-1

----- Original Message ----- From: Skolnik To: Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2002 10:28 PM Subject: response: Re: : Home demolition (Amnon Hadary)



> brief response,hopefully:

I do not make up what I write, I certainly am not going to > add footnotes to prove what I write. My sole purpose is to try to show > there are two sides to the story here, and to try also to correct > misconceptions which probably are unavoidable for those not here. > ahl t'hiyeh tzadik mi-die. > I am very aware of where I live and the dangers we [...] 11133 224 10_Media Bias12_Doug Greener25_ddwgreen@netvision.net.il31_Sun, 10 Feb 2002 12:05:07 +0200607_windows-1255 ====== MEDIA BIAS - BERNARD GOLDBERG ======

Following is an excerpt from "Bias: A CBS Insider Exposes How the Media Distort the News" by Bernard Goldberg, published by Regnery Publishing, Inc. Chapter 14, "Connecting the Dots... to Terrorism."

...Was what happened on September 11 a subversion of Islam, as pundits and journalists on network and cable TV told us over and over again? Or was it the results of an honest reading of the Koran? It's true, of course, that if taken too literally by uncritical minds, just about any holy book can lead to bad things. Still why are [...] 11358 65 7_Reunion11_Sue Freeman19_sfreeman@cfl.rr.com31_Sun, 10 Feb 2002 11:37:38 -0500491_iso-8859-1 Read in a message from Pearl to someone else the mention of a reunion scheduled for June 1 in New York. There has been mention in the past about a workshop reunion. Anyone have any specifics as to whether it's a workshop related reunion or some other type of reunion, such as from camp? I live in Florida and have given consideration to being in the NY/NJ area again end of May beginning of June and would like to plan my trip accordingly (was at Naaleh function last June). [...] 11424 173 63_=?windows-1255?B?4fLw6envOiBVLlMuIHN1cHBvcnQgZm9yIElzcmFlbA==?=8_ericmoli25_ericmoli@netvision.net.il31_Sun, 10 Feb 2002 21:48:57 +0200562_windows-1255

--Dear Allison,

My name is Mrs. Mollie Marx. I am originarly from Washington, D.C. and in 1952 came to Israel with the 2nd Workshop (1952). I am looking for ex-Workshoppers who are living in Israel. I'm very much interested in hearing about their experiences, where you stayed, who was your leader, about your program, etc. Do you know that in Aug., 2002 the 52nd Workshop group will be arriving? Isn't it amazing that this program is still carrying on? I do hope that you will respond to my request of getting in touch with me. [...] 11598 140 19_Against Demolitions13_Shloime Perel21_itsmeshloime@yahoo.ca37_Sun, 10 Feb 2002 20:53:23 -0500 (EST)397_us-ascii Dear Habonet People,

I picked up this tragic story on an Israeli/Palestinian dialogue group called "Salaam-v-Shalom." I'm just thinking. . . the meaning of Habonim is the opposite of "destroying," "bulldozing," "demolishing."

Naive sounding questions are sometimes best. Shouldn't we ask some of them at our next seders, when the four sons (or four children) reemerge. [...] 11739 28 12_Urban Legend11_Roslyn Lang20_langr@georgetown.edu31_Mon, 11 Feb 2002 09:47:11 -0500565_us-ascii The past director of security for El Al (I don't recall his name) spoke on American TV last September and said that El Al's cockpit doors were double doors with a space between. The outer doors could not open until the inner ones were closed and vice versa. (The entrance to the Israeli Embassy in Washington works the same way.) He did NOT mention anything about gas (which sounds like a myth created by our enemies), but said that anyone trying to push through to the cockpit would get stuck between the doors. He also said he suggested this method [...] 11768 30 23_Re: Against Demolitions0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Mon, 11 Feb 2002 10:53:26 EST555_US-ASCII Dear Sol- This is a tragic story- with all kinds of horrible implications-But what about the innocent people who are blown up at pizza parlors, or just walking down the street, or the kids who were blown up at the disco? What about the life of their parents who now will not see their children grow up? What about the horrible PR campaign waged against Israel in nursery schools and on Palestinian TV??? Do you think it is so wonderful top bribe children with promises of money and a "good time with virgins" if they kill Jews???? This is a [...] 11799 115 66_Save the Date! Habonim Dror Foundation events on June 8th and 9th.14_Jessica Silver26_foundation@habonimdror.org31_Mon, 11 Feb 2002 11:12:38 -0500534_iso-8859-1 To end all the speculation, let me announce the 50th anniversary of the Workshop celebration this June in NYC.

The two day event, June 8th and 9th, will celebrate the landmark accomplishment of the Workshop program entering its 52nd year, and serve as a reunion for all Habonim Dror alumni. On June 8th, there will be an informal afternoon event followed by the annual Kumzits. On June 9th, there will be a more formal event, to officially mark the occasion. Please plan on being with us for the whole weekend. [...] 11915 97 23_Re: Against Demolitions13_Shloime Perel21_itsmeshloime@yahoo.ca37_Mon, 11 Feb 2002 14:45:53 -0500 (EST)537_us-ascii Dear Sue and everyone,

Thanks for your reply. I agree that no tragedy should be minimized, no death should be slighted. This is why the status-quo is intolerable. The status-quo means more death and suffering.

I look at it this way. A baby is born -- "that baby" for some reason comes into existance. Twenty years later, this very same person, who was born as a new being on earth, can, through the force of history, become a victim of some war he or she had nothing to do with. How do we put an end to this? [...] 12013 24 6_TO SOL0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Mon, 11 Feb 2002 15:21:56 EST354_US-ASCII

In a message dated 2/12/02 3:46:51 AM, itsmeshloime@yahoo.ca writes:

<< Another thing. Can we feel comfortable with the architect of the 1982 war in Lebanon as prime minister? >>

Hey- I didn't vote for him and neither did you! But he WAS elected by the Israeli population!....it isn't up to us here in the galut!..sue [...] 12038 37 13_Dave Van Ronk0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com29_Mon, 11 Feb 2002 15:38:11 EST424_US-ASCII To the folk music fans out there I just heard the very sad news that Dave Van Ronk, a true giant during the folk scare of the 60's, has just died. He was neither Jewish nor a Habonim alum but his music certainly had an effect of my days in Habonim. His versions of Mr. Noah, Green Green Rocky Road and his wonderful arrangement of House of the Rising Sun were regularly sung at Mosh, and I'm sure other camps. [...] 12076 16 17_Re: Dave Van Ronk0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com29_Mon, 11 Feb 2002 18:12:56 EST343_US-ASCII



------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 12093 36 17_Re: Dave Van Ronk0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com29_Mon, 11 Feb 2002 18:28:01 EST507_US-ASCII Dave Van Ronk was a great guy. I got to meet him and talk to him personally at length on several occasions most recently two or three years ago after a concert in Pittsburgh. I was once admonished as a madrich by a parent because being in Habonim had led the child to listen to Dave Van Ronk. What was I to say I owned three of his albums myself. Van Ronk told me that one time he hitched a ride with Blind Reverend Gary Davis. ( the Reverend had a driver ) Davis sat in the back seat playing [...] 12130 152 24_Arafat is NOT a partner!9_yigalsela18_ysela@inter.net.il31_Tue, 12 Feb 2002 06:50:32 +0200365_windows-1255 Its been quite a while since I commented on the situation out here vis-a-vis the Palestinians and the breakdown in the peace process.

I am a disappointed Israeli . (I choose to use the word disappointed and not depresses, simply because I believe things are still to get worse and we need to keep our right o be depressed for worse times). [...] 12283 49 28_Re: Arafat is NOT a partner!0_18_Brianscoop@aol.com29_Tue, 12 Feb 2002 00:29:56 EST508_US-ASCII In a message dated 2/11/02 11:55:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, ysela@inter.net.il writes:



> All Israel can do is try to keep the damage down to the minimum and to keep > on burying its dead

Everything you said is true -- sad but true. But Israel can also stop expanding the settlements, once and for all. Israel can dismantle the settlement in Gaza, once and for all (and stop wasting resources on their protection). ----------------------------- Brian Cooper brianscoop@aol.com 12333 21 40_Re: Arafat is NOT a partner!--60 minutes0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Tue, 12 Feb 2002 01:47:26 EST450_US-ASCII Did anyone else see 60 minutes? I wanted to throw up when Morley Safer asked Arafat if there would be peace in his lifetime- when Arafat said he wanted to be buried in Jerusalem...I have felt for so long that there needs to be new leadership amongst the Arabs and Palestinians, but Arafat claims he was "democratically elected" by his people..so whaddaya do?..Any chance Mossad can infiltrate and put someone in as a new leader???..sue [...] 12355 130 28_Re: Arafat is NOT a partner!7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Tue, 12 Feb 2002 12:04:02 +0200575_iso-8859-1 you don't address the problem that: 1. leaving the settlements grants a victory to PA/PLO which they understand as weakness on our part and that if they continue their attacks they will gain even more, ending up in Tel Aviv in the end. The problem is NOT the settlements, as demonstrated by Barak's offer to completely disband every settlement. It was turned down. In fact, the settlements in Judea and Samaria and Aza are NOT different than the kibbutzim and moshavim in the green line were in their day. It was Mapai and the Left who mourned our failure to [...] 12486 46 13_war resisters0_13_Ezrox@aol.com29_Tue, 12 Feb 2002 11:53:54 EST523_US-ASCII I got this from Ilana Ron at HDNA. Lets get this puppy circulated. People really should know about it. Thumbs up to Nik Jon from British Habo- the only person I recognized on this list, which is a very good sign. Just from looking at these names, it's a very Israeli-born group of people. As you all know most of the anti-occupation activity is predominantly the foreign / anglo olim continent of the Israeli left wing. I think this could be a very significant movement because of its organic Israeli nature. [...] 12533 104 28_Re: Arafat is NOT a partner!13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Tue, 12 Feb 2002 13:04:21 -0500 12638 23 11_Playgrounds0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Tue, 12 Feb 2002 14:05:35 EST558_US-ASCII I suggest we set up a fund to set up playgrounds in Arab neighborhoods (if they want them) in Israel in memory of Ami Cohen, z"l. and have Pearl investigate the possibilty of having the Israel Children's centers adminitrate this- sinec this is what they do anyway...part of our requirement is that if the villages do't want a playground, that tehre be some kind of cultural-cross-ethnic program to help the children play together (Israeli and Arab kids)- Maybe I am naive- but music, dance, poetry, and sharing helps to bridge those gaps...sue [...] 12662 17 40_sRe: Playgrounds-Please excue the typos-0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Tue, 12 Feb 2002 14:29:39 EST473_US-ASCII I typed this without "looking" at the keyboard and the AOL at work doesn't do spellcheck when I send- sorry for all of the mistakes....sue

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 12680 71 15_Re: Playgrounds13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Tue, 12 Feb 2002 14:52:52 -0500630_us-ascii Dear Susie,

Who could be against playgrounds? Yes, there is tremendous need for playgrounds in Arab towns and neighborhoods and in the 40 unrecognized Arab villages within the greenline. However, there is even more need to roads and sewers and electricity in those villages.

Pearl's playground suggestion came in a thread entitled "home demolitions". In it, she seems to make the leap that playgrounds and parks somehow make up for demolished homes. I don't know whether that leap was cynical or naive or confused. But whatever the thinking was, I don't follow it. I had not responded with my thoughts [...] 12752 30 15_Re: Playgrounds0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Tue, 12 Feb 2002 15:43:08 EST552_US-ASCII I realise that Save a Child's heart is Ami's dream-- how about supporting the children once they are healthy- Maybe we can do both- I am not sure that Pearl had anything mixed up- She had emailed me privatley about the playground idea- and it was prbably in reaction to some other email that she included it...At any rate- I think any step we take can be an active one- If you don't like the playground idea- how about a fund to help rebuild the houses of Palestinians who were innocentHow about a "Peace Corps idea recruiting some of us [...] 12783 180 28_Re: Arafat is NOT a partner!7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Tue, 12 Feb 2002 23:20:03 +0200571_iso-8859-1 Judy et al, shalom The settlements DO defend themselves -- all men are on regular shmira in each village and town. Hashomer was set up to defend early kibbutzim and villages as well. Today, the army does this job. Defense is not divisible. People over the green line all serve in the army and defend all Israelis, as well. 70% of Israelis, according to latest poll, believe Sharon is doing the right thing! If we would retreat to other borders, we would be painting ourselves into a corner. The settlements are on the high spots, they guard the roads and [...] 12964 64 37_---Bravo Re: Arafat is NOT a partner!0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com29_Tue, 12 Feb 2002 17:18:34 EST626_US-ASCII Bravo Judy....Bravo ....yes!



In a message dated 2/12/02 1:02:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, gelman@erols.com writes:



> > Dear Pearl, I have been listening to the argument against unilateral > withdraw for 35 years. Enough is enough. Even if we buy your argument that > the settlements were started in a way that was similar to early kibbutzim, > so what? The early kibbutzim defended themselves and didn't sap the youth > of Israel to defend them. The early kibbutz members weren't enticed by tax > incentives either. If the Palestinians are going to fight for every inch > of Israel [...] 13029 211 30_Home Demolitions: Few or Many?13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Tue, 12 Feb 2002 18:29:10 -0500589_iso-8859-1 Dear Pearl,

I am not getting my information from the "foreign media" but from Haaretz, the Jerusalem Report, the Jerusalem Post and Israeli internet sites.

We can argue about "few" vs "many" but here are the facts:

Between 87-97( the "first intifada), 449 homes in the territories were destroyed for purposes of punishment, 62 were partially destroyed, 296 were fully sealed and 118 were partially sealed. With the common figure for occupancy being 10 Palestinians per residency, it is estimated that this left about 9000 people homeless. Few or many? [...] 13241 31 15_Re: Playgrounds0_15_DebALev@aol.com29_Tue, 12 Feb 2002 21:16:09 EST604_US-ASCII

In a message dated 2/12/02 2:51:21 PM, gelman@erols.com writes:

<< sleep, food, housing, and clothing are at the top, although I don't remember the precise order. Playgrounds can't build trust and understanding when homes are being destroyed. >>



It's food, clothing and shelter....those are basic needs (no particular order.....it's usually charted out as the base of a triangle). I would also add "SAFETY," because without personal safety, the others don't really matter. I always used this when working with battered women, but it's just as applicable here. [...] 13273 60 15_Re: Playgrounds13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Wed, 13 Feb 2002 00:36:07 -0500607_us-ascii Dear Sue,

A good source of organizations that work with Israeli Arabs can be found at www.newisraelfund.org

You might be interested in the Asso of 40 for the Recognition of Arab VIllages. I toured several of these villages 20 months ago, just before the intifada began, and saw conditions that are closer to the way that our ancestors lived in biblical times than they are to the way you or I live today. What is heartbreaking is that very basic services like roads, mail delivery, transportation to school, sewers, water and electricity are denied to these people (some of whom [...] 13334 237 45_Re: Home Demolitions: Few or Many?-correction13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Wed, 13 Feb 2002 07:14:57 -0500367_iso-8859-1 Dear Chevre:

A correction: "Source: B'tselem Reports, available at www.btselem.org. Also cited in the Jerusalem Report on Feb 3, 2002 " should read "Source: B'tselem Reports, available at www.btselem.org. Also cited in the Jerusalem POST on Feb 3, 2002" I guess my subconscious can't believe that I read the Jerusalem Post. Shalom, JUdy Gelman [...] 13572 24 15_Doing something0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Wed, 13 Feb 2002 10:35:51 EST545_US-ASCII I am frustrated and I think I am just going to "give in" and donate to SACH...I don't think we have any kind of power to do anything for these people of whom you speak- Despite their plight- it is obviously a govnermental problem ( how are we to get funds for paving roads, mail, and electricity?)...I was, however, very touched by the ISrael Children's centers - we are working in tandem with them on the Exodus project- and while they may be small, thier goal is to bring some joy into the life of children- no matter where they [...] 13597 139 16_Fwd: DRUG RECALL0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Wed, 13 Feb 2002 10:37:56 EST17_US-ASCII

13737 23 15_Re: DRUG RECALL0_15_DebALev@aol.com29_Wed, 13 Feb 2002 12:23:10 EST625_US-ASCII Sue......thisis VERY VERY OLD....probably more than a year old now. By now, if there is anything containing this on the shelves, that store should be investigated.

Of course, for those of us who do keep meds long past their due dates, it always is a good idea to check.

Debbie

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 13761 24 15_Re: Playgrounds0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Wed, 13 Feb 2002 13:14:32 EST528_US-ASCII Judy, I appreciate hearing your well expressed opinion on the matter of building a playground. There was nothing sacred about playgrounds per se, but better a playground than marching in support of destruction, or just saying "how awful." In my opinion any act of kindness on a personal level is a move in the proper direction. I think it comes under the near universal religious principle of, 'Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." A playground is a place to begin. Let's hope it doesn't end there. [...] 13786 17 15_Re: DRUG RECALL0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Wed, 13 Feb 2002 13:33:33 EST476_US-ASCII I had seen this a long time ago also- but I think they are still selling some of that stuff- just sent it as a reminder during this season--s

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 13804 239 71_=?windows-1255?B?5PLh+OQ6IOHy8Onp7zogVS5TLiBzdXBwb3J0IGZvciBJc3JhZWw=?=8_ericmoli25_ericmoli@netvision.net.il31_Wed, 13 Feb 2002 21:08:06 +0200659_windows-1255

----- Original Message ----- From: ericmoli To: habonet@shamash.org Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2002 9:48 PM Subject: áňđééď: U.S. support for Israel





--Dear Allison,

My name is Mrs. Mollie Marx. I am originarly from Washington, D.C. and in 1952 came to Israel with the 2nd Workshop (1952). I am looking for ex-Workshoppers who are living in Israel. I'm very much interested in hearing about their experiences, where you stayed, who was your leader, about your program, etc. Do you know that in Aug., 2002 the 52nd Workshop group will be arriving? Isn't it amazing that this program is still carrying on? [...] 14044 295 27_Fw: 83 websites about Purim7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Wed, 13 Feb 2002 14:54:45 +0200702_iso-8859-1

----- Original Message ----- From: Jacob Richman To: Informal Aliyah discussion group Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2002 7:19 AM Subject: OT: 83 websites about Purim



> Hi Everyone! > > The fun-filled Jewish holiday - Purim, falls on the > 14th of the Hebrew month of Adar. This year Purim > begins Monday evening February 25. > > Below are 83 websites about Purim, ranging from > explanations and customs to games and recipes. For your > convenience, the sites are also hyper-linked online at: > > http://www.jr.co.il/hotsites/j-hdaypu.htm > > > Enjoy! > Jacob > [...] 14340 89 30_I count to 10 and then I write7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Thu, 14 Feb 2002 00:28:21 +0200534_windows-1255 Dear Habonet: I do not think I am alone in my feelings that some people on this list, who do not live here, and who think that HaAretz, etc are the last word in knowledge of Israel, just are living in a moral fantasy world. I stand in the street next to the Sbarro, my feet standing on the spot where the blood spilled of five friends who were murdered, waiting for the light to change and I sweat bullets in zero temperature. I have nightmares at night of terrorists coming up from the wadi and attacking us in our [...] 14430 424 11_new yerida?16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Wed, 13 Feb 2002 19:13:20 -0500601_iso-8859-1 The following piece appeared in the VILLAGE VOICE: Week of Feb. 13-19, 2002

Israelis Contemplate the Unthinkable - Moving Out Escaping the Hell of the Holy Land by Sylvana Foa

JAFFA - It is no longer unmentionable, but people are still careful. Young mothers at the playground whisper about it so the kids won't hear. People test their friends at dinner parties by casually mentioning the "worrying" trend. Many Israelis are "preoccupied with a subject no one likes to talk about . . . ways to get the hell out of here," columnist Yoel Marcus wrote in Ha'Aretz the other [...] 14855 159 34_Re: I count to 10 and then I write13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Thu, 14 Feb 2002 00:17:33 -0500537_us-ascii Dear Pearl,

I presume that what you wrote is in answer to my last email which lays out the number of homes (1500+) demolished since 1987 in Gaza and the West Bank and since Jan 2001 in East Jerusalem, which I wrote in answer to your email where you refer to the number of homes demolished as "a few". I also presume that you either did not read or choose to ignore the information that I sent you last week from B'tselem that explains that at least the 600+ homes demolished in Gaza in the last 16 months where done [...] 15015 50 35_Fwd: I count to 10 and then I write0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Thu, 14 Feb 2002 00:16:40 EST17_US-ASCII

15066 71 34_Re: I count to 10 and then I write0_18_Brianscoop@aol.com29_Thu, 14 Feb 2002 00:58:08 EST387_US-ASCII Dear Pearl,

Falling back on attacking the right to speak when you are confronted with uncomfortable comments and statistics is an unacceptable approach to such an important debate, or to any debate, in fact.

Historically, the Israeli Right has often relied on this horrendous tactic in attempting to silence the opposition both in Israel and in the Diaspora. [...] 15138 48 20_brians note to pearl12_Stan Goldman17_stan@zahav.net.il31_Thu, 14 Feb 2002 15:07:44 +0200219_windows-1255 I wish I had been able to answer pearl as well as brian did this week. I have never posted a negative thing to pearl or about pearl but the time has come when I must say" pearl think about what brian wrote" 15187 17 34_Re: I count to 10 and then I write0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Thu, 14 Feb 2002 10:59:13 EST437_US-ASCII I agree with both Judy and Pearl- I am either a "zlub" or very confused. I hope it is the second --sue

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 15205 58 25_HDF celebration in Israel14_Jessica Silver26_foundation@habonimdror.org31_Thu, 14 Feb 2002 11:44:26 -0500305_iso-8859-1 Some people found my last posting confusing, so let me clear up the dates of the Israeli portion of the Workshop celebration. The HDF celebration in Israel will be in Dec. 2002 running into Jan. 2003. This event is still 10 months away.

I hope many of you will be joining us there. [...] 15264 28 34_Re: I count to 10 and then I write11_Batel Libes25_batel_libes@earthlink.net31_Thu, 14 Feb 2002 09:35:57 -0800426_iso-8859-1 Brian wrote: Perhaps a Jew in Eilat can't understand either? Or maybe a "rich kibbutznik with swimming pools?"

Good point, Brian. My brother-in-law, who lives in Mitzpe Hila on the northern border, feels people in Tel Aviv and especially Elat should have no input on what goes on the northern border. His thoughts are along the same ones Pearl noted: If you don't live here, you have no right to speak. [...] 15293 17 24_Re: brians note to pearl0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Thu, 14 Feb 2002 13:02:20 EST350_US-ASCII Hi Stan, Dennis

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 15311 57 19_re what Pearl wrote13_moshe sheskin24_moshes7@netvision.net.il31_Thu, 14 Feb 2002 20:25:46 +0200375_windows-1255 Pearl, you no doubt received a lot of negative replies to your e-mail. I for one agree with you. Although I don't live in Jerusalem and cannot live through the constant fear of another suicide mission, I can't close my eyes to the danger that is always present. Maybe only an Israeli, living in Israel is really aware of the current situation. I know I am. [...] 15369 242 34_Re: I count to 10 and then I write9_Ben Cohen14_bencee@rcn.com31_Thu, 14 Feb 2002 15:09:19 -0500444_iso-8859-1 Dear Pearl: I don't know why this message shows up on my personal e-mail. Please see what you can do to stop it. I prefer to read my "Habonet" mail on that site, directly. Thanks. Ben Cohen -----Original Message----- From: Judith Gelman To: Skolnik Cc: habonet@shamash.org Date: Thursday, February 14, 2002 12:16 AM Subject: Re: I count to 10 and then I write [...] 15612 291 34_Re: I count to 10 and then I write7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Fri, 15 Feb 2002 00:13:03 +0200386_iso-8859-1 I sent one message out and that was to Habonet. I do not know who you are and would have no reason to send you a letter privately. Sorry if it happened, but it might be the server's fault. pearl ----- Original Message ----- From: Ben Cohen To: Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2002 10:09 PM Subject: Re: I count to 10 and then I write [...] 15904 38 6_Dreams0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Thu, 14 Feb 2002 17:44:07 EST431_UTF-8 DREAMS

At 17, I sat on the hill and watched the sun Set into the Mediterranean "In those days" life was a rush of hormones and adrenalin And in the cool evening thick with Galilee air The lights of distant settlements twinkled along with your eyes Dreams were easy then… Innocent dreams of brotherhood, of homeland, of salty surfs Caressing the stones of ancient dwellings we walked in, Getting our feet wet… [...] 15943 104 10_Re: Dreams13_Shloime Perel21_itsmeshloime@yahoo.ca37_Thu, 14 Feb 2002 19:07:41 -0500 (EST)583_us-ascii Thanks, Sue.

Was this Gesher Haziv, looking down from the most beautiful part of the kibbutz, overlooking the Mediterranean? The year, 1961-62?

Speaking as one person, I empathize. I know what it was like. I am reminded of a poem by Rachel, expressed as a prayer song, "Eli, Eli," in the Reform Shabbat siddur, "Gates of Prayer." Here (as I remember it) Rachel begs to never forget the rush of the sea, the touch of the sand. Not far away in the same siddur is Chana Senesh'es poem, "Blessed is the Match." I believe that somehow there is a relationship. [...] 16048 33 10_Re: Dreams0_15_DebALev@aol.com29_Thu, 14 Feb 2002 19:10:27 EST515_US-ASCII

In a message dated 2/14/02 7:08:23 PM, itsmeshloime@yahoo.ca writes:

<< Speaking as one person, I empathize. I know what it was like. I am reminded of a poem by Rachel, expressed as a prayer song, "Eli, Eli," in the Reform Shabbat siddur, "Gates of Prayer." Here (as I remember it) Rachel begs to never forget the rush of the sea, the touch of the sand. Not far away in the same siddur is Chana Senesh'es poem, "Blessed is the Match." I believe that somehow there is a relationship. >> [...] 16082 63 10_Re: Dreams13_Shloime Perel21_itsmeshloime@yahoo.ca37_Thu, 14 Feb 2002 19:16:10 -0500 (EST)575_us-ascii Dear Debbie,

Thanks for your note. You're probably right that "Eli Eli" was written by Chana Senesh. I'll confirm it tomorrow night in the only Reform shul in Montreal.

Shloime

--- DebALev@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 2/14/02 7:08:23 PM, > itsmeshloime@yahoo.ca writes: > > << Speaking as one person, I empathize. I know > what > it was like. I am reminded of a poem by Rachel, > expressed as a prayer song, "Eli, Eli," in the > Reform > Shabbat siddur, "Gates of Prayer." Here (as I > remember it) Rachel begs to never forget the [...] 16146 26 10_Re: Dreams0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Thu, 14 Feb 2002 19:44:15 EST522_US-ASCII

In a message dated 2/15/02 8:08:20 AM, itsmeshloime@yahoo.ca writes:

<< Was this Gesher Haziv, looking down from the most beautiful part of the kibbutz, overlooking the Mediterranean? The year, 1961-62? >>

"Wat den?"---water has always had a magical effect in poetry--refreshing- clean- rebirth, etc....but no place I have seen in all of my travels has compared to the giva or the hill on the way to the chadar ochel with the olive trees---we are lucky to have these as memories!-susie [...] 16173 296 34_Re: I count to 10 and then I write29_Richard Steacy & Esther Cohen22_richard.steacy@gte.net31_Thu, 14 Feb 2002 20:47:10 -0500392_iso-8859-1 i've had this happen, too, and it appears to be simply because habonet appears on the cc: line, rather than the to: line.

esther cohen mosh 70-75+ mb yd (76) workshop gesher haziv 77-78

----- Original Message ----- From: "Ben Cohen" To: Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2002 3:09 PM Subject: Re: I count to 10 and then I write [...] 16470 61 45_Kibbutz Movement In Coalition for Peace Rally9_R. Shultz18_lzac@securenet.net31_Fri, 15 Feb 2002 00:10:29 -0500626_iso-8859-1

>From Peace Now: On Saturday Night, February 16th 19:30, The Peace Coalition will hold a march from Rabin Square to the Tel-Aviv Museum, where a rally will be held at 20:00. Speakers will include Dr. Sari Nusseibeh and author Meir Shalev.

GET OUT OF THE TERRITORIES: GET BACK TO OURSELVES

Israel is in crisis. The death toll is rising, the economy is collapsing, personal security has eroded and with it, public morale. We are faced by a greatly weakened Palestinian Authority, and the danger of a detrioration to chaos mounts daily. Millions of Palestinians live in fear and poverty. In [...] 16532 610 6_sharon15_Leo Diesendruck18_leodie@isdn.net.il31_Fri, 15 Feb 2002 08:05:28 +0200632_windows-1255 Saadia Gelb communication _____



Saadia Gelb ńňăéä âěá

Kfar Blum ëôř áěĺí

Upper Galilee, Israel éůřŕě

12-150 150-12 Fax: +972-4-694-8666 čě: 6948625-04









February 2002







One year of Arik Sharon as Prime Minister of Israel







On February 6, 2002, the record of Ariel Sharon as Prime Minister may be evaluated. My conclusion is that during the first half of his tenure, he was successful but the second half would have been a failure except for a fortunate convergence of circumstances. [...] 17143 272 34_Re: I count to 10 and then I write9_yigalsela18_ysela@inter.net.il31_Fri, 15 Feb 2002 10:40:33 +0200601_iso-8859-1 Dear Judith,

I read with interest your response with regards to the "right" of Zionists in the Tfutsot (I prefer that definition to the detrimental Galut). Despite understanding Pearl's feelings (without entering into defending the settlers rights, I do so wish that they had never been established) I am sure that I speak for the large majority of ZIONISTS living in Israel, in that we value and need the imput of Zionists living abroad. As an Israeli (and a Zionist) living in Israel I can try to point out subtle and even emotional points that are usually missing from press [...] 17416 30 25_eli eli is about caesarea12_Ilana Berner20_ilanabr@bezeqint.net31_Fri, 15 Feb 2002 12:27:12 +0200305_iso-8859-1 the Hebrew title of Eli as written by chana senesh who was living at kibbutz sdot yam at the time is : tiyul l'caesarea

sorry to disappoint all of you who have experienced the beauty of 'golden bridge' but the song is about the beach of Caesarea..... and i am not at all prejudice! [...] 17447 48 29_RE: eli eli is about caesarea12_Dave Edelman21_docdave@optonline.net31_Fri, 15 Feb 2002 06:30:10 -0500447_iso-8859-1 Ilana,

If I'm not mistaken, the name was halicha l'caesarea.

Doc

-----Original Message----- From: owner-habonet@shamash.org [mailto:owner-habonet@shamash.org]On Behalf Of Ilana Berner Sent: Friday, February 15, 2002 5:27 AM To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: eli eli is about caesarea

the Hebrew title of Eli as written by chana senesh who was living at kibbutz sdot yam at the time is : tiyul l'caesarea [...] 17496 18 49_Re: Kibbutz Movement In Coalition for Peace Rally0_15_DebALev@aol.com29_Fri, 15 Feb 2002 07:33:22 EST410_US-ASCII Gee whiz.....and these are people who LIVE IN ISRAEL!!!!!!!!!

Debbie

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 17515 141 23_Re: HABONET digest 214011_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Fri, 15 Feb 2002 09:22:40 -0500580_us-ascii



Maxene and Frank Perlmutter wrote:

> Noam asked: > > "If you don't intend to make the point why are you writing it? > I surely don't understand how this "reflects your being a > product of a domineering western civilization". Can you explain?" > > I intended to make a point or two, only not that one. I suppose I was hoping > to illustrate how using what might be called leftist-anticolonial rhetoric > is just sloganeering rather than meaningful analysis, at least that's what I > had in mind when I wrote that comment. I recognize that the [...] 17657 44 13_Dennis speaks12_Stan Goldman17_stan@zahav.net.il31_Fri, 15 Feb 2002 10:51:08 +020090_windows-1255 Hi Dennis Now if Pearl qould write to me saying that B rian gives good advice 17702 74 34_Re: I count to 10 and then I write0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Fri, 15 Feb 2002 11:28:21 EST355_US-ASCII Sitting here safely in upstate New York, with a dozen deer grazing quietly in the snow blanketed cornfields of last year's idyllic summer, I offer my alternatively conservative and or leftist opinions drawn, not from erudite papers and journals, but from the passionate and sometimes rational rantings of my beloved chaverim of all stripes. [...] 17777 47 23_Re: Against Demolitions11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Fri, 15 Feb 2002 11:44:32 -0500553_us-ascii LiberHawke@aol.com wrote:

> Dear Sol- > This is a tragic story- with all kinds of horrible implications-But what > about the innocent people who are blown up at pizza parlors, or just walking > down the street, or the kids who were blown up at the disco? What about the > life of their parents who now will not see their children grow up? What about > the horrible PR campaign waged against Israel in nursery schools and on > Palestinian TV??? Do you think it is so wonderful top bribe children with > promises of money and a "good [...] 17825 23 23_Re: Against Demolitions0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Fri, 15 Feb 2002 12:46:27 EST542_US-ASCII

In a message dated 2/16/02 12:46:16 AM, stopak@orionsci.com writes:

<< So stop whining already :-) >>

I have- and have resorted to poetry and non-enagagement!-- Thanks for the advice- s

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 17849 119 31_thomas friedman NYT feb 10 200211_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Fri, 15 Feb 2002 14:26:21 -0500629_iso-8859-1 Though he is mostly talking about Saudis and other Arabs, I find the Thomas Friedman column below germaine to several recent threads of discussion, especially the portions relating to blame, escapism, and the need for self-analysis.

Noam

++++++++++

February 10, 2002

Blunt Question, Blunt Answer

By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN

LONDON — We were just finishing a lunch hosted by a U.S. diplomat for Arab editors in London when one of the editors turned to me and said: "I hope you will not be insulted, but I have to ask you this question because it's around: Are Jews in the media [...] 17969 152 49_Re: Kibbutz Movement In Coalition for Peace Rally13_Shloime Perel21_itsmeshloime@yahoo.ca37_Fri, 15 Feb 2002 14:39:52 -0500 (EST)353_us-ascii Dear everyone,

I am inspired by the Peace Coalition's demo to be, tomorrow night, and hope it will lead to a new and ever widening circle for Jewish-Palestinian reconcilliation. It is in accord with the highest ideals of Shabbat, the celebration of life itself. And if anyone from Habonet goes to the demo, please tell us about it. [...] 18122 17 49_Re: Kibbutz Movement In Coalition for Peace Rally0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Fri, 15 Feb 2002 17:12:26 EST397_US-ASCII I pray that everyone who goes enjoys Shalom on Shabbat. Dennis

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 18140 197 23_Re: Against Demolitions0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com29_Fri, 15 Feb 2002 17:13:36 EST576_ISO-8859-1

> © Copyright 2002 Ha`aretz. All rights reserved > > The Obvious Conclusion > > The proportion of Jews living in Israel and the territories is today 53 > percent, but it will be between 43 to 48 percent in 2020. This forecast is > included in an extensive study published this week by Professor Sergio > DellaPergola, chairperson of the Institute of Contemporary Jewry at the > Hebrew University of Jerusalem. The conclusion to be drawn from this > forecast is clear to anyone who wants to live in Israel as a democratic > state with a Jewish majority [...] 18338 168 13_Reply to Noam27_Maxene and Frank Perlmutter24_habesor@netvision.net.il31_Sat, 16 Feb 2002 09:43:32 +0200373_US-ASCII

Noam wrote:

"Well Frank, I guess it's just too subtle a point for my feeble leftist-anticolonial mind, but I still don't understand why Brian's asking "What could I/we do (or have done) that could make things different" justifies your assertion that that "reflects your being a product of a domineering western civilization." Can you explain?" [...] 18507 248 44_Fw: [Mideastweb] Good News from Beyond Words22_Ilan and Lorrie Israel24_ilanori@netvision.net.il31_Sat, 16 Feb 2002 11:10:46 +0200410_iso-8859-1 Dear Habonet/ HDNA , First, let me introduce myself. My name is Ilan Israel and I grew up in British Habonim, made aliya to Kibbutz Mevo Chama in 1974, moved to Gezer in 1982, am married to Lorrie (nee Oreck) from Gilboa and workshop and was shaliach to Moshava region from 1985-7. Since 1990 we've been living in Kochav Yair on the Israeli side of the Green line near Kfar Sava (or Kalkilya). [...] 18756 76 17_Re: Reply to Noam0_18_Brianscoop@aol.com29_Sat, 16 Feb 2002 09:40:05 EST531_US-ASCII Gee whiz Frank, you again write:

> ... a question asked by someone with a world view that is not > self-centered or given to viewing one's self, group, tribe, people, nation > or state as all-controlling would have been "What could we, Arabs and Jews, > do or should have done to make things different?". I don't know if you or > Brian hold to such a world view as described in the revious sentence. I do > know that the question as originally posed by Brian is the sort that is > asked by someone with such a [...] 18833 23 17_Re: Reply to Noam11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Sat, 16 Feb 2002 09:44:03 -0500467_us-ascii Frank,

Thanks for sticking to the issues and refraining from condescending personal attacks.

All the best,

Noam

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 18857 168 17_Re: Reply to Noam29_Richard Steacy & Esther Cohen22_richard.steacy@gte.net31_Sat, 16 Feb 2002 10:10:03 -0500468_iso-8859-1 Brian - perhaps you simply need to define "we" - are you speaking for we habonetters, we jews (nominal or practicing), we who have connections to israel, we human beings? you get the point. what i read was what can i/we - as individual(s) - do in our own lives that will help? i won't get into the profundity of starting each journal with a single step, or changing one's own life to encourage change in others, but it' something to consider, perhaps. [...] 19026 67 17_Re: Reply to Noam0_18_Brianscoop@aol.com29_Sat, 16 Feb 2002 10:19:03 EST569_US-ASCII In a message dated 2/16/02 10:09:01 AM Eastern Standard Time, richard.steacy@gte.net writes:



> Brian - perhaps you simply need to define "we" - are you speaking for we > habonetters, we jews (nominal or practicing), we who have connections to > israel, we human beings? you get the point. what i read was what can i/we > - as individual(s) - do in our own lives that will help? i won't get into > the profundity of starting each journal with a single step, or changing > one's own life to encourage change in others, but it' something to > [...] 19094 37 17_Re: Reply to Noam0_18_Brianscoop@aol.com29_Sat, 16 Feb 2002 10:22:11 EST158_US-ASCII That should have been "whoever" not "whomever" - yes? Any grammarians out there?

----------------------------- Brian Cooper brianscoop@aol.com 19132 99 17_Re: Reply to Noam29_Richard Steacy & Esther Cohen22_richard.steacy@gte.net31_Sat, 16 Feb 2002 11:13:59 -0500389_iso-8859-1 yup!

brian - remind me - where have our paths crossed? which workshop were you on? (i've gotten totally lost on numbers - help me out with year and kibbutz) you weren't at mosh, were you?

thanks,

-esther ----- Original Message ----- From: Brianscoop@aol.com To: habonet@shamash.org Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2002 10:22 AM Subject: Re: Reply to Noam [...] 19232 211 14_Reply to Frank11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Sat, 16 Feb 2002 13:20:06 -0500542_us-ascii Now that I've counted to 10, I have a think or two to say in response.

Frank Perlmutter wrote:

> Since I've already tried and obviously failed to explain it to you let me > just suggest that a question asked by someone with a world view that is not > self-centered or given to viewing one's self, group, tribe, people, nation > or state as all-controlling would have been "What could we, Arabs and Jews, > do or should have done to make things different?". I don't know if you or > Brian hold to such a world view [...] 19444 213 14_Current events12_Doug Greener25_ddwgreen@netvision.net.il31_Sat, 16 Feb 2002 19:38:15 +0200418_iso-8859-1 ONE JERUSALEM NEWS Friday, February 15, 2002

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Dore Gold Elucidates Jewish Record on Jerusalem

Dore Gold, a key adviser to Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon and Israel's former ambassador to the United Nations, offers an important lesson on Israel's claim to Jerusalem in a new study published on the One Jerusalem website. [...] 19658 32 48_Re: Eleven degrees of Separation , A.B. Yehoshua11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Sat, 16 Feb 2002 17:33:19 -0500564_us-ascii Roz Barland wrote:

> Eleven degrees of separation > > The principal theme of Zionism was and remains the establishment of borders within which it will be possible to maintain Jewish sovereignty. This is also the only way out of the violent spiral we are caught in: the creation of a defended, temporary border between the Palestinians and us. The major obstacle is the settlement enterprise, which is holding nine million Israelis and Palestinians hostage. No more. Following are 11 principles for unilateral separation > > By A.B. Yehoshua > [...] 19691 56 48_Re: Eleven degrees of Separation , A.B. Yehoshua12_Ilana Berner20_ilanabr@bezeqint.net31_Sun, 17 Feb 2002 14:22:02 +0200654_iso-8859-1 hello noam,

a.b. yehoshua is a distinguished Israeli author who has been awarded many literary prizes. his many books have been translated into many languages including English and are well worth reading.

i too found this piece extremely well written, thought provoking and generally a positive approach in order to find solutions to the situation. Included in the piece were some very important suggestions for immediate solutions while the long term solution will follow in it's own good time. number one on everyone's agenda should be how to immediately stop the bloodshed and unilateral separation is a giant first step [...] 19748 70 20_Globes Template Page13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il31_Sun, 17 Feb 2002 20:29:58 +0200123_windows-1255 Another reason to hate Microsoft:

http://new.globes.co.il/serveEN/globes/docView.asp?did=561796&fid=947 19819 34 5_Moshe13_aubrey jasper22_aubreyjasper@yahoo.com37_Sun, 17 Feb 2002 10:55:26 -0800 (PST)460_us-ascii Aliya,

Has Moshe returned from Uganda? It's quite an amazing mission!

If he's back, how did it go? If he's there, how are things going? Is he, or anyone else, videotaping events? It sounds worthy of a documentary film.

Best wishes to you and your family.

Aubrey



__________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games http://sports.yahoo.com [...] 19854 21 22_Gesher Haziv - Housing0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Sun, 17 Feb 2002 18:26:53 EST347_US-ASCII We had a bit of a buzz going when we learned that Kibbutz Splendid Bridge was becoming a housing development. I among other asked for specifics. Someone as I recall was on vacation. Did I miss the response? Am I having dreams listing to Sam sing Splendid Bridge -Mary's never gotten over it, Sam. Can anyone help me out here? Dennis [...] 19876 39 26_Re: Gesher Haziv - Housing0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com29_Sun, 17 Feb 2002 20:13:41 EST169_US-ASCII In a message dated 2/17/02 6:27:42 PM Eastern Standard Time, DLerner569@aol.com writes:



> Kibbutz Splendid Bridge

It's Splendor I believe. 19916 66 15_fuji and subaru0_15_DebALev@aol.com29_Mon, 18 Feb 2002 15:17:57 EST416_US-ASCII This came from an email to my mother from Hadassah; I'm wondering if it is true or just another urban legend. Does anyone know?

Debbie



<< Please inform your friends about that demarche of Subaru-Fuji.





Fuji Co. removed Israel from its complimentary world map that they gave to

their customers with the purchase. Yes, in Fuji stores abroad you receive [...] 19983 48 26_Re: Gesher Haziv - Housing13_Shloime Perel21_itsmeshloime@yahoo.ca37_Mon, 18 Feb 2002 15:40:55 -0500 (EST)571_us-ascii Greetings! I'd really appreciate it if some people could describe (and explain) what happened to Gesher Haziv? What happened to the kibbutz of Moshe Kerem and so many others?

Shloime (Sol) --- DLerner569@aol.com wrote: > We had a bit of a buzz going when we learned that > Kibbutz Splendid Bridge was > becoming a housing development. I among other asked > for specifics. Someone > as I recall was on vacation. Did I miss the > response? Am I having dreams > listing to Sam sing Splendid Bridge -Mary's never > gotten over it, Sam. Can > anyone help [...] 20032 65 27_what happened tothe kibbutz13_moshe sheskin24_moshes7@netvision.net.il31_Mon, 18 Feb 2002 23:07:34 +0200568_windows-1255 Shlomo wrote: Greetings! I'd really appreciate it if some people could describe (and explain) what happened to Gesher Haziv? What happened to the kibbutz of Moshe Kerem and so many others?

Shlomo, I remember you from Habonim in Montreal but that's another story. The reasons for the demise of many kibbutzim is complicated. The dream that brought many of us to the kibbutz has, in some cases, turned into a nightmare. If you're interest in knowing what happened to Gesher Haziv and about another 100 kibbutzim, please get in touch with me at: [...] 20098 36 43_Reserve generals back unilateral withdrawal0_15_NEVETS2@aol.com29_Mon, 18 Feb 2002 16:51:50 EST486_ISO-8859-1 Chevre, Shalom

This news would seem to be on the bleeding edge of influential sentiment in Israel.

I urge that you read it, though we'll all surely be hearing much more about this in the coming days.

Clearly the status quo is growing increasingly intolerable to Israel.

Chaver Steve ===============================================

Monday, February 18, 2002 Adar 6, 5762 Israel Time: (GMT+2) Reserve generals back unilateral withdrawal [...] 20135 623 15_HonestReporting7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Mon, 18 Feb 2002 17:45:24 +0200570_windows-1255 thought this might be of interest to you.









Help Israel win the media war



As events in Israel continue to unfold, we recognize that Israel is not just fighting a terrorist war. Israel is fighting a media war.





One person alone may not make a difference, but thousands united can.





was formed to systematically scrutinize the media for anti-Israel bias – zeroing in on misleading word choices, factual mistakes, and omissions of key background information. [...] 20759 45 50_The Brahms/Bach Debate- confessions of an old lady0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Tue, 19 Feb 2002 18:48:30 EST543_US-ASCII In light of recent Middle East trends I have been forced into a deep "mode" of thought and sleeplessness. First, I feel that everyone is right, and everyone is wrong- but the truth is, none of this matters. What matters is trying to save lives- trying to do whatever it takes to save lives- so that not one more person- be he/she Israeli or Palestinian - be killed, or be erased from this Earth- so that this life, or soul, will not lose its chance to fulfill its destiny. I am not wanting to sound like Deepak Chopra or SHirley [...] 20805 134 35_Our Madrich Menashe has passed away12_Ilana Berner20_ilanabr@bezeqint.net31_Wed, 20 Feb 2002 15:25:57 +0200512_Windows-1252 Dear fellow Eighth Workshoppers,

I just received a message from Rossie (Goldstein) Gelb that our wonderful madrich Menashe has passed away.

I will always remember the little man with the quaint British accent scurrying around organizing ,directing and guiding us young confused souls.

Our year in Kfar Blum was a success in great part due to Menashe's unending energy and attention. Some of us gave him a hard time and he was forever patient and always so terribly polite. [...] 20940 33 28_from Jewish Studies listserv0_15_DebALev@aol.com29_Wed, 20 Feb 2002 11:18:18 EST625_US-ASCII One of the lists I'm on is Jewish studies, and this appeared in yesterday's edition. I thought others would be interested. Kol hakavod, Yehuda!

Debbie



From: Henry Near Subject: Re: post-WW2 Jewish youth in US

Someone said that Habonim and other pioneering Zionist youth movements are only a small part of the story. But they are a part, and the expert on the history of Habonim in the US is Yehuda Riemer, of Kibbutz Urim. His book on the subject was recently published (in Hebrew) by Yad Tabenkin, Ef'al, Israel, from whom copies can be obtained. He also has [...] 20974 23 32_Re: from Jewish Studies listserv0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Wed, 20 Feb 2002 12:18:59 EST576_US-ASCII After doing much research on Aliyah Bet- I can say that Habonim played more than a "small part" in the establishment of Israel- Many were crewmembers on the ships that brought refugees from Europe to Israel (sometimes involving internment in Cyprus, or being returned to Europe by the British) as many- when caught by the British Navy, opted to "blend in" with the refugees rather than be treated differently because they were "seamen."- Many went on to be pioneers in the Israel Aircraft business, and in Tzahal...When will we see this book in English?.....sue [...] 20998 116 39_Re: Our Madrich Menashe has passed away20_Gayle, Mark and Ayah18_sarazen@rogers.com31_Wed, 20 Feb 2002 18:32:19 -0500311_Windows-1252 Ilana,

Is that Menashe Ben-Ari?? In addition to being a former workshopper, I was in the 8th American Class at Kfar Blum and Menashe was our Geography teacher... He was an absolute delight of a man and we all adored him... He will indeed be missed : (

Gayle Charach Waterloo, ON [...] 21115 155 23_Reply to Brian and Noam27_Maxene and Frank Perlmutter24_habesor@netvision.net.il31_Thu, 21 Feb 2002 08:28:19 +0200440_US-ASCII I haven't counted to ten or to one hundred. I have taken the time to read over our correspondence so far and I would like to make an observation about our discussion.

It seems to me that, at least for part of the time, we have been talking past each other. This is because both Brian's and Noam's point of departure is different from mine. For instance the following point was repeated by Brian in all of his messages. [...] 21271 63 39_Re: Our Madrich Menashe has passed away12_Ilana Berner20_ilanabr@bezeqint.net31_Thu, 21 Feb 2002 09:45:59 +0200297_Windows-1252 yes it is menashe ben ari that passed away and you are absolutely right... he was a delight of a man. ilana (8th workshop)

"A Room With A (Pool) View" B&B Ilana & Tzvia Hostesses 23 Harimon St. Caesarea, Israel 050-624710 04 6363936 http://www.caesarea-b-and-b.150m.com

21335 74 54_Re: The Brahms/Bach Debate- confessions of an old lady7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Wed, 20 Feb 2002 23:10:39 +0200609_iso-8859-1 you are a poetess.... pearl ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2002 1:48 AM Subject: The Brahms/Bach Debate- confessions of an old lady



> In light of recent Middle East trends I have been forced into a deep "mode" > of thought and sleeplessness. First, I feel that everyone is right, and > everyone is wrong- but the truth is, none of this matters. What matters is > trying to save lives- trying to do whatever it takes to save lives- so that > not one more person- be he/she Israeli or Palestinian - [...] 21410 64 27_Re: Reply to Brian and Noam0_18_Brianscoop@aol.com29_Thu, 21 Feb 2002 08:46:51 EST531_US-ASCII In a message dated 2/21/02 1:29:50 AM Eastern Standard Time, habesor@netvision.net.il writes:



> If I were to rewrite Brian's words that I quoted above so that they applied > to me it would look something like: > > "Our actions must be determined by what we can do that will result in peace > between our nations. We should strive to do what is politically conducive > to > peace and when no apparent political course is available we should be > guided by what we see as ethically and morally correct." [...] 21475 180 61_New York City Council Resolution #7: please circulate widely!11_Jamie Levin22_mazkir@habonimdror.org31_Thu, 21 Feb 2002 15:42:13 -0500570_iso-8859-1 A startling matter has come to my attention; the New York City Council is considering a resolution which would attempt to bar the PLO from operating within the city. In these most violent times, where each 'side' is competing to assess more blame than the other, it is our duty to promote sanity and dialogue. Without a doubt atrocities have been perpetrated as a result of the Al Aqsa Intifadah but we in the Peace Camp have maintained a flicker of hope for over a year: the hope of renewed negotiations and a just resolution to the conflict which will [...] 21656 136 65_Re: New York City Council Resolution #7: please circulate widely!0_14_LHIAM1@aol.com29_Thu, 21 Feb 2002 17:27:05 EST509_ISO-8859-1 Chevre, I used to think that I was so far left that I was off the edge of the world, and I am sure that, those who are further right than I (still a vast majority of the world l'zari) still think that is the case, but I am in a bit of a quandary. What exactly do you disagree with in terms of this resolution? Do you not believe that the PA supports terror? Do you not believe that the PA and it's leadership should be held responsible for the actions of it's population. IF you truly want to [...] 21793 92 31_Re: what happened tothe kibbutz13_Shloime Perel21_itsmeshloime@yahoo.ca37_Thu, 21 Feb 2002 18:13:06 -0500 (EST)598_us-ascii Dear Moshe,

Thanks very much for your informative replies. Let us know how things are on Kibbutz Hulda. Did it follow the trend, or is it more like the "traditional" kibbutz?

My own opinion or hypothesis is that the continuing results of the Six Day Day was the most powerful force moving the kibbutz away from itself. Not that the occupation of the West Bank, etc., directly led to the closing of the Chadar Ochel, etc., of course, but rather the complex ideological impact of ruling the Palestinians reverberated back on the world view of many kibbutz members. I hope [...] 21886 61 15_SF this weekend15_Kaufman, Albert26_Albert.Kaufman@METROKC.GOV31_Thu, 21 Feb 2002 16:25:57 -0800177_iso-8859-1 Hey,

Any habonetters want to hang out in SF this weekend?

If so, send me a note at albi@earthlink.net

Albert Kaufman Galil 73-present Winning Way 21948 97 19_RE: SF this weekend11_Batel Libes25_batel_libes@earthlink.net31_Thu, 21 Feb 2002 16:35:34 -0800508_iso-8859-1 SF this weekendMake sure to call me when you are in town. I am busy Saturday morning till noon, but no commitments and no kids this weekend. And, if you are still around Sunday evening, the band Marc Margolis manages, http://www.boxset.com is playing. Batel

415-431-3538. -----Original Message----- From: owner-habonet@shamash.org [mailto:owner-habonet@shamash.org]On Behalf Of Kaufman, Albert Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2002 4:26 PM To: Habonetski (E-mail) Subject: SF this weekend [...] 22046 102 27_Re: Reply to Brian and Noam7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Fri, 22 Feb 2002 00:22:20 +0200483_iso-8859-1 in an extreme situation couldn't "ethically and morally correct" be just what some people on this list have found abhorrent? if "no apparent political course is available," then that means recourse to other, I presume military means, which can include destruction of buildings and cutting down of trees? pearl ----- Original Message ----- From: Brianscoop@aol.com To: habonet@shamash.org Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2002 3:46 PM Subject: Re: Reply to Brian and Noam [...] 22149 283 83_Re: [hdnacampingassn] New York City Council Resolution #7: please circulate widely!9_yigalsela18_ysela@inter.net.il31_Fri, 22 Feb 2002 13:40:13 +0200571_iso-8859-1 22/2/02

Dear Jamie,

I did consider for quite a while before responding to your call, but as there were so many people open to your call, I do feel a need to express a different view. Belonging (still ) to the Peace Camp, I also have tried to maintain a flicker of hope, but unfortunately Yasser Arafat has lead the PLO back into the world of terror. The Tanzin, PLO, Palestinian Police Force, Force 17 are all behind the recent terrorist attacks. It is not a matter of the Hamas etc. Cynically Arafat plays hosts to Israeli Arabs and Jewish [...] 22433 140 39_Preserving Israel's soul, Jpost, Feb.2211_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org31_Fri, 22 Feb 2002 06:04:10 -0600632_ISO-8859-1

Preserving Israel's soul



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Naomi Chazan February, 22 2002

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



(February 22) - The debate over human rights has now moved to the center of the political stage for the first time since the outbreak of Palestinian-Israeli violence nearly 17 months ago. The intensity of the discussion, however belated, is hardly surprising: it touches on the essence of Israel's security, survival and soul in a time of acute crisis. [...] 22574 141 28_Reservists Refusing to Serve0_14_KBob24@aol.com29_Fri, 22 Feb 2002 09:23:28 EST378_US-ASCII Folks:

I received the letter below from a good friend and my business partner, John Eliasov, formerly of Kibbutz Yizreel and currently of Kfar Saba. While it is a very personal letter he has given me permission to share it with you. I hope it contributes to both good discussion among the Habonetters and action by those who support John and his son Liron. [...] 22716 70 31_Vocolot shows on the West Coast16_Linda Hirschhorn22_vocolot@mindspring.com31_Fri, 22 Feb 2002 10:02:49 -0800673_us-ascii

Hello from Vocolot, We are pleased to announce our 2002 Spring season- all West Coast performances- and our first appearance in Canada at the Vancouver Jewish Music Festival!

For our friends who don't live near our upcoming performance venues, please tell your West Coast friends and family about the shows. We will be touring the U.S. again soon, so we hope to see many of you in the future! Thanks for your continuous support. All of us in Vocolot wish you peace and beautiful music. ____________________________________________________________________________ Sunday March 3, 1 pm CHUTZPAH! Festival at the Norman Rothstein Theatre 950 West [...] 22787 78 31_Re: what happened tothe kibbutz0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com29_Fri, 22 Feb 2002 14:01:43 EST573_US-ASCII This is not what I understand happenned to the kibbutz. I was around the kibbutz movement from 1967 to 1973. The kibbutz was not movement was not particularly thrilled with the occupation of the West Bank. They invested the lion' share of their settlement activity in Sinai and the Golan. There was a right wing contingent in the kibbutz that got caught up in not giving up land, but they stayed with in the Labor Party. Dissillousionment with this some of this old line Labor stuff, led kibbutz members to vote for Yigal Yadin because he seemed so much more [...] 22866 35 15_A Shabbat Story0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Fri, 22 Feb 2002 16:31:24 EST543_US-ASCII It was a casual conversation on the phone She lives in Atlanta We were talking "business" And she had never been to Israel before last year But on a trip with her husband She joined a group by a remote corner of The Wall Where, on a rosy Erev Shabbat They lit candles and sang for the Shabbat Queen to descend And bless them with Peace. She hadn't cared before, about Shabbat Nor felt the longing some feel when their hearts are in the East No...But on her return She felt complelled to light them every Shabbat- the candles And [...] 22902 319 32_Re: Reservists refusing to serve9_yigalsela18_ysela@inter.net.il31_Sat, 23 Feb 2002 11:38:17 +0200562_windows-1255 I would like to thank Ken for bringing the letter he received from John Eliasov about the subject of refusing to serve in the territories.

John's letter found me looking back on 30 years service in the army. My basic training I did in July 1971 on Machane 80 in a platoon of new immigrants. Our sabra comrades thought we were all "sabonim" (suckers) because we took all the commands and orders "per se", didn't know that there were ways to get around things. As I said John's letter took me back and also served as a stark reminder that [...] 23222 506 38_(long - sorry!) Reply to Frank's reply11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Sat, 23 Feb 2002 11:15:23 -0500556_iso-8859-1 Sorry about the length. Frank raises some interesting points to which I wish to respond more fully.

Maxene and Frank Perlmutter wrote:

> I haven't counted to ten or to one hundred. I have taken the time to read > over our correspondence so far and I would like to make an observation about > our discussion. > > It seems to me that, at least for part of the time, we have been talking > past each other. This is because both Brian's and Noam's point of departure > is different from mine. For instance the following point was [...] 23729 213 80_NYTimes.com Article: 'The Lessons of Terror': All War Against Civilians Is Equal0_19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il37_Sat, 23 Feb 2002 11:05:12 -0800 (PST)527_- This article from NYTimes.com has been sent to you by jonbaum@sasa.org.il.





'The Lessons of Terror': All War Against Civilians Is Equal

February 17, 2002

By MICHAEL IGNATIEFF







Caleb Carr, a popular novelist and a military historian, makes two arguments in ''The Lessons of Terror.'' The first is that punitive warfare by states against civilians amounts to terrorism. The second is that terrorism never works. Both of these arguments strike me as wrong. [...] 23943 704 61_Fw: Very well written: Strategic Analysis by Major Shawn Pine7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Sun, 24 Feb 2002 00:33:43 +0200575_UTF-8 I found this interesting and thought it should be seen by chaverim. Israel is in a "damned if you do and damned if you don't" position. I do not purport to have an answer, and don't think anyone has the ultimate answer. pearl

> << FREEMAN CENTER BROADCAST - February 20, 2002 > > ================================== > > Strategic Analysis > > Major Shawn Pine > > > As the situation between Israel and the Palestinians continues to erode, > > Israeli decision makers are scrambling to come up with a coherent, effective > > policy to met the current threat. [...] 24648 28 11_Condolences19_Nesher G. Asner, MD15_neshera@uic.edu31_Sat, 23 Feb 2002 17:02:28 -0600656_us-ascii Sam, My mom called two nights ago. My condolences on your father's death. I'm sorry we can't come down for the funeral.

Nesher Nesher G. Asner, MD, FACS Neurological Clinic of Rockford 2825 Glenwood Avenue Rockford, IL 61101 USA Tel: 815-965-9548 Fax: 815-965-9712 e-mail: NesherA@uic.edu Web site: www.neurodoc.md

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 24677 22 37_A Little Sarcasm Is Good For The Soul0_13_SC523@aol.com29_Sat, 23 Feb 2002 18:34:10 EST466_US-ASCII Dear Chevreh,

Check out this website:

http://www.whitehouse.org/initiatives/patriot/

Chag Purim sameach, Aliya

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 24700 55 41_Re: A Little Sarcasm Is Good For The Soul0_14_BUBELE@aol.com29_Sat, 23 Feb 2002 20:45:17 EST548_US-ASCII In a message dated 2/23/02 6:34:59 PM Eastern Standard Time, SC523@aol.com writes:



> http://www.whitehouse.org/initiatives/patriot/ >

Aliya, This is surely a scam, or someone's distorted sense of supposed humor. Unless you have definite confirmation of this site as an actuality, I doubt the wisdom of perpetrating such internet fraud because it serves to incite and enflame already sore subjects. Can you confirm this site's legitimacy? Sarcasm is frequently a destructive approach to take with serious issues. [...] 24756 16 41_Re: A Little Sarcasm Is Good For The Soul0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Sat, 23 Feb 2002 20:47:39 EST390_US-ASCII Aliya! How do you FIND this stuff! It kept me going!..s

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 24773 32 41_Re: A Little Sarcasm Is Good For The Soul0_15_DebALev@aol.com29_Sat, 23 Feb 2002 21:05:47 EST562_US-ASCII

Thanks, Aliya!

I'm familiar with whitehouse.org, of course, but as with The Onion, I don't always have time to read it.

Ashcroft would be funny if he weren't so scary . I keep trying to remember Molly Ivins' approach to these things......she has stayed sane after all these years.



Of course, for those of you unfamiliar with it, whitehouse.org IS A SARCASM SITE@!@!@! It's as legit as any other sarcasm site, such as Onion. If you want the "real" White House, it's whitehouse.gov, but I'm afraid nobody's home. [...] 24806 51 15_Maj. Shawn Pine12_Doug Greener25_ddwgreen@netvision.net.il31_Sun, 24 Feb 2002 11:32:30 +0200549_windows-1255 Dear Pearl,

Thanks for sending Maj. Shawn Pine's analysis. (What a name!) Of course, it's always heartwarming to read an expert saying that same thing that I have been advocating since November 2000 (at least). But I have no doubt that the camp calling for unilateral surrender can also call up their experts to back them (like the Egyptian magicians turning their staffs into snakes just like Moshe did), so what has been gained? Let's hope the government wakes up and takes Maj. Pine's words to heart before its too late. [...] 24858 230 13_Henry Siegman12_Doug Greener25_ddwgreen@netvision.net.il31_Sun, 24 Feb 2002 11:49:14 +0200730_windows-1255 Check out USA Today's fascinating piece about Arafat's daily life in Ramallah: http://www.usatoday.com/usatonline/20020220/3875440s.htm

--------------

HonestReporting Communique 22 February 2002

"SIEGMAN'S FAT CHANCE"

* * *

Dear HonestReporting Member:

The question is posed by Henry Siegman in a New York Times Op-Ed (Thurs., Feb. 22): "Will Israel Take a Chance?"

Siegman's column followed an interview that Saudi Crown Prince Abdullah gave to the Times' Tom Friedman earlier this week. Abdullah claimed that he was prepared to give a speech in which he would offer "full normalized relations" with Israel in return for Israel's withdrawal to the 1967 borders. [...] 25089 33 41_Re: A Little Sarcasm Is Good For The Soul0_13_SC523@aol.com29_Sun, 24 Feb 2002 04:58:22 EST385_US-ASCII It was a joke - it was a joke - not an actual website. Lighten up, David. It is Purim time - mi she'nichnas Adar marbin b'simcha.

This was not dastardly sarcasm - it was a parody, just like the Purim issue of the Jewish Week in New York this week featured a picture of Osama Bin Laden dressed as a chasid (i.e. normally inappropriate humor, but it is Purim time). [...] 25123 65 58_Kadima Habonim Dror - Get Your Dance Festival Tickets Now!0_13_SC523@aol.com29_Sun, 24 Feb 2002 05:55:11 EST582_US-ASCII For anyone out there wishing to come cheer on the TWO dance ensembles we now have back in the Israeli Dance Festival - please respond immediately to the following email from our wonderful Rosh Eizor, Sharone Bunim. Best to all - Aliya C-C, Dance Ensemble Coordinator

<< COME ONE, COME ALL! >> Come out to support our Na'aleh Dance Troupe at this year's 51st Israeli Dance Festival!! Hundreds of folk from cities throughout North America (and even as far as Mexico too) will be performing Israeli dance under one roof on March 17th in New York City. This is the [...] 25189 90 65_Re: New York City Council Resolution #7: please circulate widely!14_Tana Hemingway16_tanah@zianet.com31_Sun, 24 Feb 2002 03:43:46 -0700181_us-ascii

--- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.325 / Virus Database: 182 - Release Date: 2/19/02 25280 20 65_RE: New York City Council Resolution #7: please circulate widely!12_Fine, Sharon14_FineS@MLHS.ORG31_Sun, 24 Feb 2002 11:55:40 -0500330_iso-8859-1 I agree entirely with Hiam and Yigal, and have in fact written to the council members applauding them for their courage in seeing the truth and acting on it. Perhaps if we stop playing hide and seek with reality, the Palestinian leadership will stop playing their games and seek peace instead of violence. -Sharon [...] 25301 26 32_Re: Reservists Refusing to Serve12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Sun, 24 Feb 2002 22:31:52 +0200687_us-ascii Ken, The moving letter you forwarded from John Eliasov has perturbed me. Not because of it's content which I support, but due to the link: http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/1,7340,L-1659988,FF. for sending in signatures. The link gives me Yediot Aharonot but the font is unreadable. Has anyone found a way around this?

b'vrachah

Amnon Hadary

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 25328 78 31_Re: what happened tothe kibbutz13_Shloime Perel21_itsmeshloime@yahoo.ca37_Sun, 24 Feb 2002 18:30:25 -0500 (EST)349_us-ascii Happy Purim to everyone!

Thanks very much for all that information, Moshe, about what happened to the kibbutzim. You keep mentioning 100 kibbutzim. Do you mean to say that about 100 kibbutzim have experienced radical changes, or is "100" used for emphasis? Can you also explain your point about Maas? It was somewhat confusing. [...] 25407 43 41_Re: A Little Sarcasm Is Good For The Soul0_14_BUBELE@aol.com29_Sun, 24 Feb 2002 18:36:13 EST333_US-ASCII Aliya,

Your explanation does in fact help. These times are difficult and, within the proper context, some lightness could serve us all. Purim so close, and I did not see this as parody before your clarification. At the least, it is to smile about. Thanks for your response.

Purim sameach, chaverim

David 25451 27 36_The kibbutz(meshek shitufi) of today14_The Bernhardts24_miriam_b@neve-ilan.co.il31_Sun, 24 Feb 2002 22:49:22 +0200568_us-ascii As a member of a moshav shitufi (z"l?) which belongs to the Takam, I disagree with the analysis of the cause of the changes in the kibbutzim. I believe that it is linked to a number of things, the first being the change in the entire Israeli population which wants a much higher level of material objects in their lives. Secondly is the expectation that their children will be educated on a higher level which is hard to utilize in a classic kibutz situation. Thirdly, the advent of the Likud government led to a serious downgrading of agriculture as an [...] 25479 37 24_Who Was That Masked Man?12_Dave Edelman21_docdave@optonline.net31_Sun, 24 Feb 2002 20:15:29 -0500602_iso-8859-1 The following is a quote pertaining to a significant figure in Habonim. Can you figure out who the person is? Needless to say The discussion and thoughts are highly topical.

"I remember an instance by which I was particularly impressed: In America, XXXX [The Mystery Man] argued that the disturbances of 1936-38 were a good thing in the history of Arab-Jewish relations. As a member of a kibbutz which, during the period of my own stay in Eretz Yisrael (1939), suffered its casualties like any other rural settlement, XXXX knew very well what the costs were of Arab terrorism to [...] 25517 25 0_12_Yarosla, Zev24_ZYarosla@bos.co.la.ca.us31_Sun, 24 Feb 2002 17:55:40 -0800403_iso-8859-1 Can anyone out there help me?

For several years I've been listening to Kol Yisrael through my Real Audio player which I downloaded free of charge. Today my player ceased playing in mid broadcast and to the best of my investigative abilities, it looks like it's been taken over by another company and is looking to charge $9.95 per month for a service I received free until today. [...] 25543 36 32_Re: Reservists Refusing to Serve11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org31_Sun, 24 Feb 2002 20:23:01 -0600644_us-ascii It could be the browser and its settings. Yediot reads in IE and not in Netscape.

---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: Amnon Hadary Reply-To: habonet@shamash.org Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 22:31:52 +0200

>Ken, >The moving letter you forwarded from John Eliasov has perturbed me. Not >because of it's > content which I support, but due to the link: >http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/1,7340,L-1659988,FF. for sending in >signatures. The link gives me Yediot Aharonot but the font is >unreadable. Has anyone found a way around this? > >b'vrachah > >Amnon Hadary > > > [...] 25580 23 26_Real Audio and Kol Yisrael11_Sam Bergman22_bergman@mindspring.com31_Mon, 25 Feb 2002 00:58:43 -0500327_us-ascii Zev: Kol Yisrael is still steaming news on the Internet, and RealAudio still provides free service. While they are trying to push the $9.95 model, they also offer a free model. Go to their site and download a new free RealPlayer (it's hard to find among all the promotional stuff, but it says "Free Player"). Sam [...] 25604 357 13_Reply to Noam27_Maxene and Frank Perlmutter24_habesor@netvision.net.il31_Mon, 25 Feb 2002 08:43:43 +0200547_US-ASCII Noam:

There's no way to continue this discussion on this forum. I'll say a few things below which you may reply to as you wish. I'll also include a recent piece by Benny Morris. It reflects a lot of what I've been thinking for the last eighteen months or so. However, I think that the only way we can usefully continue this discussion is face-to-face. I have a neighbor who is very right wing. On Independence Day our Moshav has a barbeque and the both of us are part of the crew which cooks the meat over the charcoal fires. [...] 25962 38 50_LISTEN TO PURIM SELECTIONS FROM ALL OVER THE WORLD7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Sun, 24 Feb 2002 21:29:14 +0200642_iso-8859-1

> Jewish National and University Library > Hebrew University - Givat Ram, Jerusalem, ISRAEL > > The National Sound Archives Digitization Project > > > http://jnul.huji.ac.il/dl/music/purim/purim.html > > > > Songs and Piyyutim for Purim > > Megillat Ester > > Songs in Other Languages > > ------------------------ tachlis@shamash.org -----------------------+ > Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org > A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an > online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ > ------------------------ tachlis@shamash.org -----------------------= > [...] 26001 39 41_Re: A Little Sarcasm Is Good For The Soul0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com29_Mon, 25 Feb 2002 04:01:13 EST177_US-ASCII In a message dated 2/24/02 4:58:52 AM Eastern Standard Time, SC523@aol.com writes:



> normally inappropriate humor

Is the only kind worth anything. 26041 31 36_Teaching Job in Washington D.C. Area15_Nechemia Meyers32_rrmeyers@wisemail.weizmann.ac.il31_Mon, 25 Feb 2002 11:05:16 +0200628_US-ASCII Shalom Chevre, My eldest son Eytan, an Assistant Professor in International Relations at the Hebrew University, will be spending his next sabbtical at Georgetown University starting in September 2002. Still to be found is a teaching job for his wife Avital(Tali) in the Washington, D.C./Rockville area. Tali has 14 years of teaching experience--from nursery school through 6th grade--about equally divided between Israel and the States. In the U.S. she worked in both Jewish day schools and synagogues. She has a B.A., a teaching certificate and a green card (so she can work legally in the States. If you know of [...] 26073 56 8_GIVEN UP12_Stan Goldman17_stan@zahav.net.il31_Sun, 24 Feb 2002 14:58:11 +0200406_windows-1255 We who live in Israel are depressed. There is a sadness which has come over us" I don't want to talk about it " is often heard While I do not support Sharon I would be happier if people acted as if they were alive. We must show that we care March in the streets and show that you support something Speak out about what you believe. Don't sit there and do nothing Have we Israeli's given up ??? 26130 41 40_Re: Teaching Job in Washington D.C. Area14_The Bernhardts24_miriam_b@neve-ilan.co.il31_Mon, 25 Feb 2002 10:06:15 +0200475_us-ascii Nechemia, The Charles E. Smith Jewish Day School (Grades K-12) in Rockville has a reputation as one of the top Day Schools in the States. I don't know if they are looking for teachers, but it's worthwhile asking. FYI, they graduate their students after one semester of grade 12, and the second semester is spent in a program here if they want. Sometimes in the next week, there is a group of 37 (half of the class) arriving here for this year's program. Miriam [...] 26172 35 23_One last reply to Frank11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Mon, 25 Feb 2002 08:45:54 -0500314_us-ascii Maxene and Frank Perlmutter wrote:

> ...I would like to invite you to the Yom ha'atzmaut > celebration on the moshav this spring. We can continue our discussion here. >

Thank you for the gracious invitation. Much as I'd like to accept it, as a single father of a first grader I cannot. [...] 26208 76 77_Re: Reply to maxene and frank but you are all welcome and invited to read it!12_Ilana Berner20_ilanabr@bezeqint.net31_Mon, 25 Feb 2002 10:06:48 +0200544_iso-8859-1 dear maxene and frank,

i just wanted to thank you for forwarding this piece to all of us on habonet. i think that it is a very important and well written piece with a lot of food for thought. a lot of us left wing idealists find it difficult at times to look at the reality in the face and let go of the ideals and visions that were instilled in us in our youth. the harsh reality of the Middle East calls for visionary solutions. sometimes the immediate solutions or partial solutions cannot be reached by the two sides [...] 26285 36 25_for zev: hello from ilana12_Ilana Berner20_ilanabr@bezeqint.net31_Mon, 25 Feb 2002 09:01:01 +0200320_iso-8859-1 hi zev, it's me ilana...

for a while there i had a personal e.mail address for you and then at some point my e.mail's were returned with address incorrect message.

hope you are well and happy and would like to be in touch not through habonet so please send me your personal e.mail. thanks. [...] 26322 91 19_Henry Siegman redux16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Mon, 25 Feb 2002 10:37:59 -0500633_us-ascii Doug Greener has forwarded, verbatim, Honest Reporting's attack on Henry Siegman. I reprint here the letter I sent to Honest Reporting regarding Siegman. I am sure they will never publish it.



> Your February 22nd broadside in response to Henry Siegman is > outrageous. (Siegman, a rabbi, was formerly director of the Synagogue > Council of America.) Perhaps he is naive. Perhaps he is foolish. > Perhaps he is misguided. Seigman's comments, however debateable they > may be, cannont be construed as "anti-Israel." > There are many, both in the American Jewish community and in Israel, > who are critical [...] 26414 23 21_Yom Atzma'ut "cruise"0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Mon, 25 Feb 2002 13:02:47 EST607_US-ASCII If anyone is interested, we are "producing" a special Yom Atzma'ut program which involves sailing from Cyprus on a ship (renamed "Exodus") along with crewmembers of Aliyah Bet, celebrities, etc..which will arrive at the coast of Ashdod on tne morning of April 17 (Yom Atzma'ut)- then sailing up the coast of Israel and ending up at Haifa in the evening for a tekes - with the Mayor, Pres. of Israel, rikudim, etc.....We fly from the US on April 14- then go directly to Cyprus for 2 days....then 10 days in Israel...Anyone interested should contact me directly at: sue@worldjewishlife.com..... [...] 26438 262 22_Re: GIVEN UP: DON"T!!!7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Mon, 25 Feb 2002 15:30:23 +0200589_windows-1255 Stan, shalom, I suppose we should have an email address where we can "spill it all out." I am a volunteer facilitator for a group of veteran immigrants who have bi-polar (the politically correct description of manic depression). I am constantly telling them "be active," "exercize," "walk a lot," -- nothing helps, they don't do it, even though it is proven that such excercize starts the endomorphins going and raises mood level. When I found that I was sinking because of the "situation," I decided to follow the advice I give the support group that I lead: get out of [...] 26701 71 29_Re: for zev: hello from ilana13_Shloime Perel21_itsmeshloime@yahoo.ca37_Mon, 25 Feb 2002 15:24:47 -0500 (EST)381_us-ascii I'll have to join in on this, as I was there, too, in LA Habonim in the '60s, and Camp Naame. So was Sam Bergman. I'll write! I was amazed to see your name, Ilana. Zev, I read about you in the book on the Fairfax area, where you're quoted about the house we both lived in at different times, on North Martel. Not far from where Habonim used to meet, on Third Street. [...] 26773 58 43_Fw: Arutz-7 News: Monday, February 25, 20027_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Mon, 25 Feb 2002 22:53:06 +0200636_iso-8859-1

> > 2. FATAH INSISTS ON "TERRITORIES OCCUPIED SINCE 1948" > Yasser Arafat's Fatah rejects the Saudi Arabian peace proposal, revealing > much about its own true intentions in the process. Saudi Arabia's Prince > Abdullah said last week that he is in favor of fully normalized > Arab-Israeli relations in exchange for a complete Israeli withdrawal from > Judea and Samaria, including the Old City of Jerusalem. Fatah, however, > questions Saudi Arabia's right to "propose initiatives that give up the > territories occupied since 1948... at a time when Palestinian Intifada and > resistance are increasing and the [...] 26832 19 43_Re: Arutz-7 News: Monday, February 25, 20029_R. Shultz18_lzac@securenet.net31_Tue, 26 Feb 2002 13:43:47 -0500548_iso-8859-1 FYI: Haggai Segel, the big chief of Arutz-7 is an unrepentant Jewish Terrorist. Arutz-7 was crucial in organizing the shrill unrelenting propaganda/hate campaign against Rabin after the Oslo accords were signed.

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 26852 28 43_Re: Arutz-7 News: Monday, February 25, 200211_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Tue, 26 Feb 2002 13:53:22 -0500486_us-ascii "R. Shultz" wrote:

> FYI: Haggai Segel, the big chief of Arutz-7 is an unrepentant > Jewish Terrorist. Arutz-7 was crucial in organizing the shrill > unrelenting propaganda/hate campaign against Rabin > after the Oslo accords were signed.

>From the tone of the postings from that source, I'm not surprised to hear this background. What exactly do you mean when you call someone an unrepentant terrorist? Does Arafat qualify too? What about Sharon? Or Nixon? [...] 26881 67 43_Re: Arutz-7 News: Monday, February 25, 20029_R. Shultz18_lzac@securenet.net31_Tue, 26 Feb 2002 14:15:06 -0500588_iso-8859-1 by an unrepentant terrorist I mean someone who belonged to a self proclaimed group which practiced terror for political ends, and then remains proud of his accomplishments, and continues to see violence as the means for achieving his ends. Segel was part of the Jewish terrorist group which was caught in 1984 (members of the group were caught as they were placing a bomb on a bus of Christiam pilgrims in E. Jerusalem). Segel himself was involved in terror acts such as blowing up the cars of mayors of west bank towns he considered dangerous. His group believed the IDF [...] 26949 39 43_Re: Arutz-7 News: Monday, February 25, 200213_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il31_Tue, 26 Feb 2002 21:23:17 +020058_iso-8859-1 What the hell does Nixon have to do with this?? 26989 175 44_God's Total Quality Management Questionnaire11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Tue, 26 Feb 2002 15:45:40 -0500427_us-ascii God's Total Quality Management Questionnaire

God would like to thank you for your belief and patronage. In order to better serve your needs, He asks that you take a few moments to answer the following questions. Please keep in mind that your responses will be kept completely confidential, and that you need not disclose your name or address unless you prefer a direct response to comments or suggestions. [...] 27165 6446 46_The most important chinuch resource since 193511_Jamie Levin22_mazkir@habonimdror.org31_Tue, 26 Feb 2002 17:02:57 -0500639_iso-8859-1 The Habonim Dror Virtual Cheder Chinuch

Introduction The Virtual Cheder Chinuch can be found online at the Habonim Dror website at www.habonimdror.org under the button labeled ‘peulot’. This tool was created by Habonim Dror North America as an interactive database of chinuch (educational) resources to aid madrichim (counselors) to be more effective educators and leaders in their movement. You are encouraged to go online and search for articles, poems, peulot, maps and other resources but remember to add your best resources to The Virtual Cheder Chinuch for the benefit of others. [...] 33612 4499 21_formatting fixed. . .11_Jamie Levin22_mazkir@habonimdror.org31_Tue, 26 Feb 2002 17:50:45 -050059_iso-8859-1











38112 44 32_Re: Reservists Refusing to Serve0_14_KBob24@aol.com29_Tue, 26 Feb 2002 22:33:33 EST110_US-ASCII Amnon:

Here is another link I was sent:

http://www.seruv.org

Regards,

Ken 38157 116 15_AUTHFUL CARTOON12_Doug Greener25_ddwgreen@netvision.net.il31_Wed, 27 Feb 2002 11:21:09 +0200467_windows-1255 HonestReporting Communique 26 February 2002

"AUTHFUL CARTOON"

* * *

Dear HonestReporting Member:

With the passing of political cartoonists Herblock and Jeff McNally, Tony Auth of the Philadelphia Inquirer stands virtually alone as the senior and most-circulated American cartoonist. Auth, a Pulitzer Prize winner, has been editorial cartoonist at the Inquirer for over 30 years and serves on the paper's editorial board. [...] 38274 39 19_Re: AUTHFUL CARTOON0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com29_Wed, 27 Feb 2002 05:30:13 EST455_US-ASCII The point I made weeks ago about organizations like "Honest Reporting," is proven again by this complaint about a cartoon. After seeing the cartoon, the only complaint I would have is that it doesn't really look much like Sharon. Honest Reporting obviously expects a cartoon to include all relevant facts relating to the Middle East problem. Since it doesn't show Israel as absolutely blameless, it accuses the cartoon of being anti-Israel. [...] 38314 41 25_Re: Yom Atzma'ut "cruise"10_david baum23_rdbaum@netvision.net.il31_Wed, 27 Feb 2002 15:08:00 +0200647_iso-8859-1 Sue Shalom, I was surprised to see this notice on the Habonet. Who is coordinating here in Israel?? Or is everything being arranged in the USA?? Dave Baum. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, February 25, 2002 8:02 PM Subject: Yom Atzma'ut "cruise"



> If anyone is interested, we are "producing" a special Yom Atzma'ut program > which involves sailing from Cyprus on a ship (renamed "Exodus") along with > crewmembers of Aliyah Bet, celebrities, etc..which will arrive at the coast > of Ashdod on tne morning of April 17 (Yom Atzma'ut)- then sailing up the [...] 38356 118 23_What I don't understand0_15_DebALev@aol.com29_Wed, 27 Feb 2002 13:20:50 EST490_US-ASCII Received today:

ATTENTION ISRAEL LINE RECIPIENTS

Wednesday, February 27, 2002



* PALESTINIAN GUNMAN KILLS ISRAELI EMPLOYER

* TERROR ATTEMPTS IN HAIFA, SINAI BORDER FOILED

* SHARON TO GAY COMMUNITY: LIVE YOUR LIFE AS YOU WISH

* ISRAELI SCIENTISTS DEVELOP INTRAVENOUS CAMERA

ECONOMIC BRIEFS



PALESTINIAN GUNMAN KILLS ISRAELI EMPLOYER

Gad Rejwan, 34, was shot and killed early this morning in northern [...] 38475 25 27_Re: What I don't understand0_18_Brianscoop@aol.com29_Wed, 27 Feb 2002 13:30:19 EST643_US-ASCII >...Is this terrorism, or "just" a guy who is pissed at his employer?

But the article says clearly, " Police have termed the shooting a terror attack, saying the Palestinian had NO RECORD OF LABOR DISPUTES (emphasis mine) with Rejwan."



brian cooper ------------------ brianscoop@aol.com

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 38501 31 27_Re: What I don't understand0_15_DebALev@aol.com29_Wed, 27 Feb 2002 13:52:13 EST543_US-ASCII

In a message dated 2/27/02 1:31:35 PM, Brianscoop@aol.com writes:

<< But the article says clearly, " Police have termed the shooting a terror attack, saying the Palestinian had NO RECORD OF LABOR DISPUTES (emphasis mine) with Rejwan." >>

Yeah, Brian, I saw that too......but a lot of the workplace shootings here in the US are where there has been NO RECORD OF LABOR DISPUTES, either. Not only the one in Seattle, there were a few in Detroit, some related to other issues (jealousy, domestic violence, etc) [...] 38533 72 27_Re: What I don't understand13_Shloime Perel21_itsmeshloime@yahoo.ca37_Wed, 27 Feb 2002 14:15:23 -0500 (EST)344_us-ascii A "politics of death"--continuously asking who killed who, when, where--isn't likely to contribute to peace. We can also ask about Baruch Goldstein. Wasn't he, after all, a medical doctor, a religious person. How could a spriritual person who took the Hypocratic Oath, on healing other, kill instead, followed by his own suicide? [...] 38606 54 27_Re: What I don't understand0_18_Brianscoop@aol.com29_Wed, 27 Feb 2002 14:17:00 EST365_US-ASCII In a message dated 2/27/2002 1:52:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, DebALev@aol.com writes:



> Yeah, Brian, I saw that too......but a lot of the workplace shootings here > in > the US are where there has been NO RECORD OF LABOR DISPUTES, either.

Oh, I see. OK, got it. Thanks, brian

brian cooper ------------------ brianscoop@aol.com 38661 40 27_Re: What I don't understand0_15_DebALev@aol.com29_Wed, 27 Feb 2002 14:19:13 EST431_US-ASCII

In a message dated 2/27/02 2:15:57 PM, itsmeshloime@yahoo.ca writes:

<< A "politics of death"--continuously asking who killed who, when, where--isn't likely to contribute to peace. We can also ask about Baruch Goldstein. Wasn't he, after all, a medical doctor, a religious person. How could a spriritual person who took the Hypocratic Oath, on healing other, kill instead, followed by his own suicide? [...] 38702 76 27_Re: What I don't understand13_Shloime Perel21_itsmeshloime@yahoo.ca37_Wed, 27 Feb 2002 18:11:34 -0500 (EST)414_us-ascii Hi, Debbie,

I probably misunderstood you, and I might have commented on something that I understood in a different way than you intended!

It was that things are seen through a different filter in Israel (see below). I thought it was as if to say that Palestinians are inevitably hostile toward Jewish people. I still agree with the points I made, but forgive me if I misunderstood you. [...] 38779 34 27_Re: What I don't understand0_15_DebALev@aol.com29_Wed, 27 Feb 2002 20:04:21 EST352_US-ASCII

In a message dated 2/27/02 6:12:47 PM, itsmeshloime@yahoo.ca writes:

<< It was that things are seen through a different filter in Israel (see below). I thought it was as if to say that Palestinians are inevitably hostile toward Jewish people. I still agree with the points I made, but forgive me if I misunderstood you. >> [...] 38814 46 27_Re: What I don't understand15_Nechemia Meyers32_rrmeyers@wisemail.weizmann.ac.il31_Thu, 28 Feb 2002 10:52:10 +0200537_US-ASCII Whatever the reason for the killing, Fatah's claiming "credit" for it surely indicates the attitude of the Palestinians. Nechemia Meyers

>>> DebALev@aol.com 02/28/02 03:05 AM >>>

In a message dated 2/27/02 6:12:47 PM, itsmeshloime@yahoo.ca writes:

<< It was that things are seen through a different filter in Israel (see below). I thought it was as if to say that Palestinians are inevitably hostile toward Jewish people. I still agree with the points I made, but forgive me if I misunderstood you. >> [...] 38861 25 27_Re: What I don't understand11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Thu, 28 Feb 2002 08:28:03 -0500680_us-ascii Nechemia Meyers wrote:

> Whatever the reason for the killing, Fatah's claiming "credit" for it surely indicates the attitude of the Palestinians. Nechemia Meyers

I think it is indicative of the attitude of the Fatah "leadership".

I don't think it tells us anything about "the Palestinians" more generally.

Noam Stopak

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 38887 47 27_Re: What I don't understand0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Thu, 28 Feb 2002 11:00:56 EST633_US-ASCII In a message dated 2/28/2002 5:30:17 AM Pacific Standard Time, stopak@orionsci.com writes:



> I don't think it tells us anything about "the Palestinians" more generally

In my opinion, this is a "cop-out"- While I agree that probably many Palestinians want peace, the problem is that their leadership is their representation and it is their leadership that seems to have all of the power when it comes to policy- so it really doesn't matter what the "general" Palestinian thinks- as long as his/her government acts with terrorism and murder, that is what the rest of the world sees as their policy. [...] 38935 37 27_Re: What I don't understand11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Thu, 28 Feb 2002 11:17:40 -0500621_us-ascii LiberHawke@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 2/28/2002 5:30:17 AM Pacific Standard Time, stopak@orionsci.com writes: > >> I don't think it tells us anything about "the Palestinians" more generally > > In my opinion, this is a "cop-out"- While I agree that probably many Palestinians want peace, the problem is that their leadership is their representation and it is their leadership that seems to have all of the power when it comes to policy- so it really doesn't matter what the "general" Palestinian thinks- as long as his/her government acts with terrorism and murder, that is what the rest of [...] 38973 52 17_Fwd: Daniel Pearl13_Shloime Perel21_itsmeshloime@yahoo.ca37_Thu, 28 Feb 2002 15:20:38 -0500 (EST)136_us-ascii

Note: forwarded message attached.



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