1 SHAMASH.ORG /usr/www/wwwhc/listserv/archives/habonet January 2002 2 30 12_campus again14_Danny Goldberg17_mb300dt@yahoo.com36_Tue, 1 Jan 2002 05:38:32 -0800 (PST)453_us-ascii Elihu, Ken I am not privy to any inside info, but i did hear at the GA that Michael Jankalevitz (sp?) from the former WZO USD department has been "hired" by Hillel as a Shaliach from JAFI to head up a new effort at National Hillel to work with campuses on "hasbara". If what i was told at the GA has come about (there was no time table stated), then somehow i suspect there is a connection here... Happy, healthy & Peaceful danny goldberg [...] 33 53 16_Re: campus again0_14_KBob24@aol.com28_Tue, 1 Jan 2002 09:48:02 EST342_US-ASCII In a message dated 1/1/02 8:38:50 AM Eastern Standard Time, mb300dt@yahoo.com writes:



> i did hear at > the GA that Michael Jankalevitz (sp?) from the former > WZO USD department has been "hired" by Hillel as a > Shaliach from JAFI to head up a new effort at National > Hillel to work with campuses on "hasbara". [...] 87 42 16_Re: campus again0_18_Brianscoop@aol.com28_Tue, 1 Jan 2002 10:44:39 EST183_US-ASCII

> Many of us had experience with Michael during his previous reign

Yes... how frightening!

----------------------------- Brian Cooper brianscoop@aol.com 130 36 38_Re: Gas companies do make a difference19_Nesher G. Asner, MD15_neshera@uic.edu31_Tue, 01 Jan 2002 14:35:51 -0600500_us-ascii

> > All of this information is available from the Department of Energy >and can be easily documented. REfineries located in the U.S. are >required to state where they get their oil and how much they import. >They report on a monthly basis.

I spent a bit of time at the DOE web site, and could find no such data. Anyone know where this data really comes from, or is this just another FOFA story. (Personally, I hope it IS true - seems like a great way to make an impact.) [...] 167 142 9_campus...16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Wed, 02 Jan 2002 10:03:44 -0500654_us-ascii Danny Goldberg's recounting that

> Michael Jankalevitz (sp?) from the former > WZO USD department > is not necessarily good news for anyone concerned with the nature of Jewish campus life and the presentation of Israel on campuses. What the old AZYF University Services Dept. (the north American representation of the Jewish Agency's old noar v'hechalutz) did that was so successful was to hire articulate, knowledgeable, capable and often charismatic local Jewish student activists (many of us disproportionately at that time from Habonim) from the local campuses to be their "student reps." I don't know whose brain child this was [...] 310 128 11_Monthly FAQ12_Jennifer Kay19_kay@elvis.rowan.edu31_Thu, 03 Jan 2002 06:18:03 -0500415_- Actually-from:brianscoop@aol.com

Hi Chevre,

Here is a reminder of the "essential" commands that you can use to configure your subscription to Habonet. I will post this monthly from now on. Please note -- The address for commands is: listproc@shamash.org whereas the address for posts to the list is: habonet@shamash.org If you need any help with any of it, send me an email: brianscoop@aol.com [...] 439 24 22_Forces on the Campuses11_Roslyn Lang20_langr@georgetown.edu31_Thu, 03 Jan 2002 10:03:27 -0500518_us-ascii Judging from the fact that the children of two good friends of mine have become "super-frum" based on their experiences on campus (at two different colleges), I would say that Hillel is NOT the only Jewish force on campus. The Chasidic and Young Israel groups seem to be reaching college age kids pretty well, with very student-centered programs and personable, young rabbis, from what I have heard. Hillel and others might take some tips from them (not their philosophies, just their methods!) Roz Lang [...] 464 61 12_good and bad0_18_DLerner569@aol.com28_Thu, 3 Jan 2002 11:38:46 EST512_US-ASCII I have a theory that there are chemical rewards for good and behavior, similar to endorphin responses to prolonged stress. I don't know whether the chemicals at work are related or the same or completely different. I suspect that there is an adrenaline component to the bad behavior response that is not present in the good behavior response, but who knows? Which brings me exactly to my question. Out there in the elevated ranks of Habonet is there someone who has heard of research in this area? [...] 526 45 16_Re: good and bad13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il30_Thu, 3 Jan 2002 18:46:19 +0200187_ISO-8859-1 I know that when I watch a football game and drink beer I "feel good" by halftime.Fortunately, I know that this behavior is non-addictive because I only do it 4-5 times a week. 572 33 16_Re: good and bad0_18_DLerner569@aol.com28_Thu, 3 Jan 2002 12:17:15 EST138_US-ASCII Dear Jonathan, Cute. But I think that is a combination of eye strain, bladder tension, and boredom torpor you are feeling. Dennis 606 23 16_Re: good and bad0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com28_Thu, 3 Jan 2002 13:46:38 EST570_US-ASCII Every emotion, and thought you have triggers chemical reactions in your body- You need to read Deepak Chopra- his books are full of references to this- Although he is very "Easten" in his philosophies- he is also an M.D. so he has studied this extensively-- He became curious about this when he noticed that some people were dying from simply-cured cancers, and others were surviving when they had death sentences from their doctors-...he also had in interesting theory on cell memory and why we "connect" with certain people and don't with others---susie [...] 630 32 16_Re: good and bad0_18_DLerner569@aol.com28_Thu, 3 Jan 2002 14:24:33 EST41_US-ASCII Suzie, you never fail me. Dennis 663 31 20_Re: good and bad- PS0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com28_Thu, 3 Jan 2002 15:50:48 EST633_US-ASCII

In a message dated 1/4/02 12:40:12 AM, DLerner569@aol.com writes:

<< Labor Zionist justification for putting this inquiry on Habonet. If you can think of one, I'd appreciate >>

You can also read Vikto Frenkel- whose book, Man's Search for Meaning- was written after he had gone through Auschwitz and noticed who survived and who succumbed- attributing some of this to mental attitude ( which in turn triggrered physical responses)....I have to thank Sam Flesher- whose song about this man triggered my interest- and I recently made a college friend read it since she goes to Fordham and was in NY [...] 695 54 20_Re: good and bad- PS0_18_DLerner569@aol.com28_Thu, 3 Jan 2002 16:09:43 EST537_US-ASCII Thank you again, but I'm not sure you are focused on my point, which is that somewhere tucked away in our heads is a grup of cells which when stimulated by the proper chemical - produced elsewhere in the body when we act in certain ways (such as taking on the suffering of another person by giving them our food or a place to rest, etc.) and that chemical receptor pair are responsible for the warm, suffused glow we feel when we have done something noble or good. Because I don't think good and bad exist in nature, it is [...] 750 29 12_(no subject)0_18_DLerner569@aol.com28_Thu, 3 Jan 2002 16:12:08 EST122_US-ASCII PS I would think this might be right up Sam's alley. And Amnon no doubt has a contribution (No Pressure, really). 780 20 20_Re: good and bad- PS0_15_DebALev@aol.com29_Thu, 03 Jan 2002 16:14:26 EST526_ISO-8859-1 Viktor Frankl.....and I STRONGLY recommend Sam's song about Frankl, which is on the Grappa CD "Effortlessly."

"Man's Search for Meaning" is a short, very readable book.

Debbie

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 801 21 20_Re: good and bad- PS0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com28_Thu, 3 Jan 2002 16:19:33 EST413_US-ASCII Hey Dennis- I understand your points exactly- because I was curious about this very thing--too- and I found Chopra's book on anti-aging ( something like Ageless Body, Timeless mind)-- to put all of it iin scinetific and philosophic perspectives.....And thanks Deb- I have a habit of making a lot of typos- I type faster than I think----and I count on spellcheck- but soetimes I ignore it!!!!..susie [...] 823 56 17_Survivor registry0_15_DebALev@aol.com28_Fri, 4 Jan 2002 00:42:40 EST724_US-ASCII Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 19:48:15 -0500 From: Anna Urowitz-Freudenstein Subject: Registry of Holocaust Survivors (Green)

From: LGreen@ushmm.org Subject: Registry of Holocaust Survivors

Help us to Register Holocaust Survivors!

The Survivors Registry of the United States Holocaust Museum in Washington DC maintains the single most comprehensive listing of Holocaust survivors in the world. The Registry has existed for over a decade, and currently contains approximately 172,000 names of Jewish survivors and their descendants. The Registry is an invaluable resource for survivors still trying to locate family and friends, as well as for historians and genealogists. [...] 880 53 0_12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Fri, 04 Jan 2002 15:02:32 +0200325_us-ascii Dennis, I think that you consistently ask the most interesting and worthwhile questions on Habonet. Now why do I say "I think" first of all because they make us think, secondly because (Shakespeare said it better than me:) " there is nothing either good or bad ,but thinking makes it so." Shabbat shalom, Amnon [...] 934 435 11_aol posting0_18_DLerner569@aol.com28_Fri, 4 Jan 2002 15:31:14 EST688_UTF-8 I thought you would be interested in the following after last week's discussion of the Palestinian propaganda machine on the internet. Dennis

" The Myth Of The Palestinian People Yehezkel Bin-Nun December 26, 2001 Arutz Sheva

“Palestinians doubt Blair can deliver,” announces the BBC. “Four Palestinians die in West Bank,” reports CNN. “IDF demolishes building used by Palestinian gunmen,” announces Israel’s government run Channel 1 News. The modern media is filled with stories about the Palestinians, their plight, their dilemmas and their struggles. All aspects of their lives seem to have been put under the microscope. Only one question never [...] 1370 439 0_8_ericmoli25_ericmoli@netvision.net.il31_Sat, 05 Jan 2002 23:29:25 +0200376_windows-1255



Hi all,

If you become acquainted the "Microsoft Scan Disk.doc? Much to our requret, we have. It's a program which causes constant interuptions on the computer, not just on the internet.

If you know about it, then, perhaps you can advise us how we can get rid of it for good. So far, all our villiant tries have come to nothing. [...] 1810 55 15_Re: aol posting11_Sue Mackson16_susiem6@juno.com30_Sun, 6 Jan 2002 13:34:09 -0500606_- I find it difficult to understand how migrations of Arabs from mandates and colonies of the early twentieth century reflects negativley on their claims to an independent state. If they were movitated in their migrations to Palestine by the increasing economic activity of the Jewish settlers I would think it should mean that together these two peoples should have been able to figure out a way how to live in the area without each needing the eradication of the other. The total dependence of the Palestinian territories on the economic activity in Israel is an abominable situation which will not [...] 1866 62 15_Re: aol posting9_Norm Kane19_normk@earthlink.net31_Sun, 06 Jan 2002 21:50:40 -0800610_us-ascii Well at least Thai or Malaysian workers aren't trying to blow up buses, discos, or even pizza parlors. If the Arab workers are suffering so much why don't they pressure Hamas or Islamic Jihad to stop?

Norm Kane

Sue Mackson wrote:

> I find it difficult to understand how migrations of Arabs from mandates > and colonies of the early twentieth century reflects negativley on their > claims to an independent state. If they were movitated in their > migrations to Palestine by the increasing economic activity of the Jewish > settlers I would think it should mean that together [...] 1929 54 15_Re: aol posting0_18_Brianscoop@aol.com28_Mon, 7 Jan 2002 08:11:38 EST339_US-ASCII In a message dated 1/7/02 12:51:12 AM Eastern Standard Time, normk@earthlink.net writes:



> If the Arab workers are suffering so much why > don't they pressure Hamas or Islamic Jihad to stop

Because they ARE suffering. Perhaps if they were not, they would no longer provide a base of support for terror. [...] 1984 21 15_Re: aol posting0_13_JLCAA@aol.com28_Mon, 7 Jan 2002 15:30:00 EST359_US-ASCII An old axiom of organizing says that those who have the most to loose, have already lost. Christian and Muslim Arabs who have nothing to loose - who have nothing to value but their misery, can be depended upon to take extreme measures. People who make a decent living and have something to loose, generally don't engage in terrorist activities. [...] 2006 465 31_=?windows-1255?B?5PLh+OQ6IA==?=8_ericmoli25_ericmoli@netvision.net.il31_Mon, 07 Jan 2002 23:38:34 +0200466_windows-1255

----- Original Message ----- From: ericmoli To: gail carp ; paul harris ; mayim@aol.com ; bruce genderson ; hazel rose ; habonet@shamash.org ; paul garfield ; yakov penciner Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2002 11:29 PM







Hi all,

If you become acquainted the "Microsoft Scan Disk.doc? Much to our requret, we have. It's a program which causes constant interuptions on the computer, not just on the internet. [...] 2472 25 35_Re: =?windows-1255?B?5PLh+OQ6IA==?=0_15_DebALev@aol.com28_Mon, 7 Jan 2002 16:48:40 EST374_US-ASCII This is the second such message I've received from ericmoli@netvision.net.il . I don't know what it is about, and it comes with an attachment.

I do not open attachments.

Please explain what this is about. I defrag and scandisk regularly from my Start menu on the advice of my in-home maven with no problems at all (other than the time it takes). [...] 2498 81 3_Re:19_Elinore Koenigsfeld19_elinore@macam.ac.il30_Tue, 8 Jan 2002 00:21:29 +0200616_iso-8859-1 I am re-joining Habonet after a long break and hope to re-connect with old friends, as well as see what is concerning people.

I was active in the WashingtonDC ken in the 60's, went to Moshava, was a madrecha at Na'aleh, and was on the 14th workshop at Gesher Haziv. I'm living in Israel since 1969, married with two (now grown) children and now two grandchildren. I teach art and am active as an artist: last show 1998 at the National Jewish Museum in Washington, next Mar. 30 at Bet Gabriel (Semach). Please see article about my work at: http://www.thesourceisrael.com/current/portrait.shtml [...] 2580 36 10_No Subject0_17_Shulansid@aol.com28_Mon, 7 Jan 2002 19:02:57 EST479_US-ASCII Dear Shula: I truly appreciate your message. However, I do not believe that I have the time to devote to such a forum and my views do not reflect or represent how Palestinians feel. I regard myself as a Jerusalemite Christian attempting to build bridges between Palestinians and Israelis, as opposed to taking one side vs. the other. But good luck with the forum. Please stay in touch. I am planning to be in Jerusalem for the entire month of July. Warmest wishes, [...] 2617 25 13_labor history13_Joel Winograd15_mail@jelaco.com30_Mon, 7 Jan 2002 20:17:25 -0600326_US-ASCII Hi all,

A friend of mine has become a union rep at a large government agency. He spends a lot of time defending people against arbitrary abuses by manangement. He is interested in learning the history of the labor movement in the US. Would anyone like to recommend a book with a good overview as a start? [...] 2643 63 35_Re: =?windows-1255?B?5PLh+OQ6IA==?=0_18_Brianscoop@aol.com28_Mon, 7 Jan 2002 23:09:39 EST285_US-ASCII



> This is the second such message I've received from ericmoli@netvision.net.il > > . I don't know what it is about, and it comes with an attachment. > > I do not open attachments. > > I'm not yet sure what it is, but that's a good policy - don't open it. [...] 2707 45 13_labor history16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Tue, 08 Jan 2002 09:22:26 -0500517_us-ascii See the four volume History of Labour in the United States by John R. Commons & Associates, The MacMillan Company (New York:1926). (Note that Vols III and IV are copyright 1935.)

John Commons essentially created the field of Labor Economics as an area of academic endeavor--at the University of Wisconsin. Francis Perkins may have been FDR's long-time Secretary of Labor, but the NLRB was the brainchild and creation of Commons and his colleagues, many of whom became its first staffers and directors. 2753 93 59_Here are a good number of books on the U.S. labor movement.0_13_JLCAA@aol.com28_Tue, 8 Jan 2002 11:08:29 EST473_US-ASCII Here are a range of suggested titles for a basic read on the U.S. labor movement. All of these - above the ===== line ... were found on www.powells.com - a unionized bookstore in the state of Washington. Strongly suggest that people in general use this site, rather than others, for online shopping for new as well as used books. They have a range of titles, from labor history to Judaica to kids books ... ! >> Arieh Lebowitz, replying on behalf of Avi Lyon [...] 2847 46 17_economic argument2_BG26_103640.2135@compuserve.com30_Tue, 8 Jan 2002 13:01:40 -0500609_us-ascii I use to but no longer buy the economic argument. People do not act by economics alone. Religion and nationalism ask people to act for some larger cause, and people readily do. Sometimes they sacrifice for a greater good and sometimes for horrific ends.

As long as there are people whipping up palestinian and arab nationalistic sentiments, and even worse, anti-Israel and anti-Semitic attitudes, and still worse these in the form of religious goals and beliefs, peace is going to be difficult. After all Bin Laden had a few bucks in his pocked. Arafat may have mega-buck stashed away in [...] 2894 44 21_Re: economic argument0_18_Brianscoop@aol.com28_Tue, 8 Jan 2002 13:21:35 EST617_US-ASCII Barrry writes: > People do not act by economics alone. > Religion and nationalism ask people to act for some > larger cause, and people readily do. Sometimes they > sacrifice for a greater good and sometimes for horrific ends.

True, and also, as you say, this did become rather self-evident on September 11. However, economics is still most likely the key factor regarding the *support* they may or may not get in the general population. When economic conditions (and probably civil rights) improve, it is still likely safe to assume that support for fundamentalist activists will weaken. And it [...] 2939 47 37_=?iso-8859-1?B?4fLw6envOiDk8uH45Dog?=8_ericmoli25_ericmoli@netvision.net.il31_Tue, 08 Jan 2002 20:41:38 +0200367_iso-8859-1 Dear Deb (and anyone else who has been receiving Email from us),

We are being bothered by a Microsoft Scan notice, which disconnects our computer every time it appears on our screen. I simply wanted to know if anyone else has had this problem and how did they delete it, permanently. Sorry, if I have been a borther. Was just looking for help. [...] 2987 140 37_=?iso-8859-1?B?4fLw6envOiDk8uH45Dog?=8_ericmoli25_ericmoli@netvision.net.il31_Tue, 08 Jan 2002 21:12:11 +0200482_iso-8859-1 Dear Brian,

I am terribly sorry that I have made such a nuisance of myself. What I sent to Habonet and others was a call for help. For a long time, now, we have been bothered by a notice from Microsoft Scan declaring that they have to scan our disk C because we have not closed down the computer properly. This is an unsolicited and false notice and, as hard as I've been trying I cannot get rid of it. It also disconnects our computer every time it appears! [...] 3128 27 64_=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=E1=F2=F0=E9=E9=EF:=20=E4=F2=E1=F8=E4:=20?=0_15_DebALev@aol.com28_Tue, 8 Jan 2002 14:29:45 EST442_US-ASCII Mollie......I don't know if this will help or not. I have a PC (IBM), and if I don't shut the computer down by using the Start menu then clicking on "Shut Down," if I turn it off at the power source, when I turn it back on there is the same message that my computer wasn't properly shut down. Then it scans the disk, taking a while, and there are yellow boxes at the bottom of the screen that show the progress of the scandisk. [...] 3156 50 13_people finder9_CarmiDave20_carmdave@urim.org.il30_Tue, 8 Jan 2002 22:27:19 +0200214_windows-1255 We lost our entire addressbook when our Windows crashed a couple weeks ago. Could Sam or someone please post the link for the People finder so we can re-establish our addresses?

Toda Rabah, Dave 3207 23 24_Re: people finder - link11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Tue, 08 Jan 2002 15:55:23 -0500626_us-ascii Try http://www.habonimdrorfoundation.org/people

CarmiDave wrote:

> We lost our entire addressbook when our Windows crashed a couple weeks ago. Could Sam or someone please post the link for the People finder so we can re-establish our addresses? Toda Rabah, Dave





------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 3231 44 4_noam9_CarmiDave20_carmdave@urim.org.il30_Tue, 8 Jan 2002 23:02:06 +020042_windows-1255 Toda rabah, Noam.

Dave 3276 66 21_Re: economic argument11_Carol Shore21_c_shore@ix.netcom.com30_Tue, 8 Jan 2002 20:42:23 -0500421_iso-8859-1 I heartily agree. The economic argument of the origions of terror lost credibility with the profiles of the 9/11 terrorists. Religion may be the opiate of the masses, but even the economically stable need ego, be it nation or religion based. There are no answers here only observations and an opportunity to rethink solutions, I hope. Steve Shore PS I love the cyber-freudian slip of Barry's spell check. [...] 3343 77 18_Position Available0_13_SC523@aol.com28_Wed, 9 Jan 2002 01:37:17 EST444_US-ASCII Dear Chevreh,

As there are quite a few Habochevreh who attended Brandeis University, I thought it appropriate to post this position:

From: broadcast@alumni.brandeis.edu To: undisclosed-recipients: ; Subject: Position Available at Brandeis House in NYC

Attention Brandeis Alumni

The following position is now available. Qualified alumni are encouraged to apply or forward on to other worthy candidates. [...] 3421 86 58_=?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_=E1=F2=F0=E9=E9=EF:_=E4=F2=E1=F8=E4:_?=14_Tana Hemingway16_tanah@zianet.com31_Wed, 09 Jan 2002 03:00:44 -0700402_iso-8859-1 I also do not open attachments from unknown sources. So when I got that thing I deleted the whole message. Soon afterwards my virus protection did its scheduled scan, and found nothing. But a while before, my working on Eudora was interrupted by something from Microsoft that I have never seen before. I simply clicked on the X and it went away. But I too wonder what's going on. Tanah [...] 3508 106 58_=?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_=E1=F2=F0=E9=E9=EF:_=E4=F2=E1=F8=E4:_?=14_Tana Hemingway16_tanah@zianet.com31_Wed, 09 Jan 2002 03:07:59 -0700182_us-ascii

--- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.303 / Virus Database: 164 - Release Date: 11/24/01 3615 86 20_letter to the editor0_15_DebALev@aol.com28_Wed, 9 Jan 2002 12:06:12 EST675_US-ASCII This was in this morning's "Seattle Post-Intelligencer." What a refreshing one.......I thought chevre might find it somewhat cheering.

Debbie

> Letters to the Editor Wednesday, January 9, 2002 MIDDLE EAST Israel could be model for Palestinians

I love Israel. I am a Muslim. I don't care about the so-called "Palestinian cause" or any other terrorist cause. If you are trying to achieve political ends by butchering kids outside a teenage hangout on Friday night or slaughtering families, including children and babies, in a pizza restaurant or blasting school buses full of preschoolers with roadside bombs or flying planes into buildings, [...] 3702 42 21_econ arguement part 12_BG26_103640.2135@compuserve.com30_Wed, 9 Jan 2002 12:45:30 -0500574_us-ascii Brian,

It is amazing how easy it is to forget that in 1967 Israel was not at "peace" with Jordan and Egypt, that its economic solidity was far from certain, that it was uncertain how much Jewish money could be counted on to support arab causes. Then many arabs including palestinian groups were calling for the destruction of Israel (as some still are!). I agree the U.S. led Marshal plan was a good idea. But then Germany was surely defeated. Pouring money into people who want to and have the power to destroy you is a far more difficult proposition. [...] 3745 42 15_econ arg part 32_BG26_103640.2135@compuserve.com30_Wed, 9 Jan 2002 13:10:45 -0500614_us-ascii Part 3

It is difficult to claim that Israel could have done things that would have led to a solution now. My personal belief is that Israel should have set administration and education up solely lead by Arabs reasonably sympathetic to Israel. All external and tax money should have been funnels through such sympathetic and people and institutions. If the Jewish state had started to develop the relations and groundwork or a palestinian state from the start things just very maybe would have been different. But you can bet there still would have been terrorism and groups wanting to destroy [...] 3788 65 40_Unusual letter to the editor...resending0_15_DebALev@aol.com28_Wed, 9 Jan 2002 13:17:46 EST376_US-ASCII I cut and pasted this into my last email, but it came to me via habonet as an attachment.....I've had this problem on other lists with AOL 6.0, as it apparently is sent out in RTF and some mailing lists automatically convert it to an attachment.

Since I NEVER open attachments, and know that many of you don't either, I'm trying to re-send it via AOL 5.0 [...] 3854 29 14_Capitalization0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com28_Wed, 9 Jan 2002 14:05:01 EST110_US-ASCII Barry Grushkin's refusal to capitalize the words "Arab" and "Palestinian" bothers the hell out of me. 3884 56 22_Re: fighting terrorism0_15_NEVETS2@aol.com28_Wed, 9 Jan 2002 14:15:46 EST513_US-ASCII

In a message dated 1/9/02 12:12:09 AM, Brian writes:

<< However, economics is still most likely the key factor regarding the *support* they may or may not get in the general population. When economic conditions (and probably civil rights) improve, it is still likely safe to assume that support for fundamentalist activists will weaken. And it is obviously easy to follow these forces and blame a common infidel as your enemy when you cannot blame your own government for example. >> [...] 3941 16 19_Re: econ arg part 30_18_LiberHawke@aol.com28_Wed, 9 Jan 2002 15:42:45 EST412_US-ASCII Hi barry- Your name sounds very familiar- could you give us a little bio? Sue

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 3958 54 68_Re: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=E1=F2=F0=E9=E9=EF:=20=E4=F2=E1=F8=E4:=20?=13_Barry Krasner17_bkrasner@juno.com30_Wed, 9 Jan 2002 16:10:57 -0500508_- If you don't want to wait out the scan disc procedure, just hit 'enter' and it will continue with the normal boot-up. Barry

On Tue, 8 Jan 2002 14:29:45 EST DebALev@aol.com writes: > Mollie......I don't know if this will help or not. I have a PC > (IBM), and if > I don't shut the computer down by using the Start menu then clicking > on "Shut > Down," if I turn it off at the power source, when I turn it back on > there is > the same message that my computer wasn't properly shut down. Then > [...] 4013 44 25_Re: econ arguement part 10_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com28_Wed, 9 Jan 2002 16:36:55 EST492_US-ASCII In a message dated 1/9/02 12:49:02 PM Eastern Standard Time, 103640.2135@compuserve.com writes:



> For me one of the shocking issues is how much the Jews blame themselves. > If we only would have done such and such.

The reason why mistakes made by Israel are the topic of conversation on forums like this is because it is Israel's behavior on which we may have some influence. I don't think the Palestinians are much interested in what ex-Habonimers have to say. 4058 113 15_campus attitude0_16_SMG54321@aol.com28_Wed, 9 Jan 2002 21:53:02 EST352_US-ASCII Dec 28, 2001

On December 21, 2001 Rachelle (Pelnik) Tzchor arrived with Uriel and their two wonderful boys for a home visit to Kfar Blum. As Rachelle related the hostile attitude to Israel on the Iowa campus where both of them teach I decided to send the following letter. It might be helpful to those of you who meet antagonists. [...] 4172 44 13_missed econ 22_BG26_103640.2135@compuserve.com31_Thu, 10 Jan 2002 09:14:35 -0500535_us-ascii My part 2 did not make it to the H-net yesterday.

Econ argument (continued) Part 2

It is unclear if Israel favored a state decades back whether it would be here to tell the tale. Arms coming in from Iran still seem to be a problem. I agree a settlement with the palestinians would be a good idea. But you cannot have peace with people till they are ready. And though most newspapers always draw the map of Israel and the territories as if it is an island, Israel is and always will be a speck in the eye of [...] 4217 16 63_Re: Here are a good number of books on the U.S. labor movement.0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Thu, 10 Jan 2002 10:01:15 EST366_US-ASCII Please add: Labors untold story

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 4234 28 6_"oslo"11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Thu, 10 Jan 2002 13:06:38 -0500518_us-ascii

When people talk about "Oslo" which document or documents are really under discussion?

I wanted to check into the wording of the Palestinian renunciation of violence which was included and have been poking around at the Washington Post web site. I see a "Statement of Principles" from 1993, as well as the "Implementation Accord" from September 1995, as well as a "Second Implementation Accord" from January 1997. (See www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/inatl/longterm/me_peace/agreements.htm) [...] 4263 66 49_=?iso-8859-1?B?4fLw6envOiDh8vDp6e86IOTy4fjkOiA=?=8_ericmoli25_ericmoli@netvision.net.il31_Thu, 10 Jan 2002 20:23:28 +0200532_iso-8859-1 Dear Debby,

I want to thank you for your helpful advise concerning a problem I have with a program called Microsoft Scan. The basis of this problem is not about shuting down my computer properly (which I do) or not. I also do not have a problem with viruses. I see it as another way that the Microsoft Co. has found to enrich its profits. When I called up the company to ask them to stop pestering me with this unsolicited notice, I was told that they would do it for $20!. Of course, I won't agree to such a [...] 4330 48 12_Chaver Steve14_Ethan Schwartz24_schwar1@netvision.net.il31_Thu, 10 Jan 2002 23:18:38 +0200579_iso-8859-1 Shalom, Chaver Steve

I decided to answer your personal appeal to me, to encourage friends to be counted in the World Zionist Congress elections, in this forum. I count myself as a Zionist in the revolution and a Revolutionary in Zion. That is the education I got in Habonim and how I decided to live my life. What does the World Zionist Congress have to do with Zionism? What does Habonim have to do with Zionism? What does Americans dividing up along Israeli political lines have to do with the future of American Judaism, and what could it possibly have [...] 4379 51 21_steve hancoff on tour0_12_SHX2@aol.com29_Thu, 10 Jan 2002 21:22:14 EST622_UTF-8 Dear Habonetters,

Since 1993, I have toured the world playing concerts as an Artistic Ambassador for the US government. We (my banjo playing friend, Buddy Wachter and I) play Americana – folk music, blues, ragtime, jazz, spirituals, topical songs (just like a kumsitz), as well as music of composers like Foster, Sousa, Joplin, Morton, James P Johnson, Gershwin, Berlin, Ellington… , as we seek to tell the tale of the development of American popular music and how it both reflects and has a hand in creating our history. As Ambassadors, our purpose is to promote good relations and therefore peace. [...] 4431 248 36_FWD: The paradox of Jewish existence11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org31_Thu, 10 Jan 2002 20:59:59 -0600542_us-ascii

The paradox of Jewish existence



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Aharon Megged January, 11 2002

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



(January 11) - The epic of the Jewish people begins with the the word "go." "Go!" - says the Lord to Abraham, the father of our nation. Go! - "Get thee out of the country and from thy kindred and from thy father's house, unto the land that I will show you." [...] 4680 126 25_Re: Why? What? Why? What?0_15_NEVETS2@aol.com29_Fri, 11 Jan 2002 02:45:06 EST593_US-ASCII H E L P ! ! ! !

"I appeal to you to help educate me and others who may be asking similar questions before casting a ballot or encouraging anyone else to do so."

Ethan, Shabat Shalom

I can assure you that neither living in Israel nor registering to vote in the American Zionist election will bring the Moshiach, will resuscitate the Israel Labor Party, will bring peace with the Palestinians, will bring democracy to the heathens, will revitalize the Histadrut, will bring A.D. Gordon back to life, will move Mosh back to Annapolis, or will cause mass aliyah [...] 4807 55 25_Re: steve hancoff on tour16_Linda Hirschhorn22_vocolot@mindspring.com31_Fri, 11 Jan 2002 09:26:59 -0800582_iso-8859-1 wow Steve- have a great time- look forward to hearing all about it when I see you in Vancouver- Linda

SHX2@aol.com wrote: > > Dear Habonetters, > > Since 1993, I have toured the world playing concerts as an Artistic > Ambassador for the US government. We (my banjo playing friend, Buddy Wachter > and I) play Americana – folk music, blues, ragtime, jazz, spirituals, topical > songs (just like a kumsitz), as well as music of composers like Foster, > Sousa, Joplin, Morton, James P Johnson, Gershwin, Berlin, Ellington| , as we > seek to tell the tale of [...] 4863 19 104_=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=E1=F2=F0=E9=E9=EF:=20=E1=F2=F0=E9=E9=EF:=20?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=E4=F2=E1=F8=E4:=20?=0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Fri, 11 Jan 2002 18:37:00 EST546_US-ASCII Dear Mollie, As an old person, let me tell you, problems left alone, rarely if ever just fade away. just consider the arab Israel conflict we chew on with each other. Will ignoring it help? Spend the $20. Dennis

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 4883 18 16_Re: Chaver Steve0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Fri, 11 Jan 2002 18:40:12 EST372_US-ASCII To ETHAN SCHWARTZ, Here, here. Dennis

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 4902 20 11_Nahalat Ziv0_18_Green88888@aol.com29_Sat, 12 Jan 2002 22:58:41 EST579_US-ASCII Hi all, I am trying to find out more information about the Nahalat project being built next to Gesher Haziv. Could some one e-mail me privately about this project -especially who to contact. I will be in Israel this summer . Thanks a lot. Donna

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 4923 25 8_Re: OSLO16_Marc Hershkowitz21_marchersh@hotmail.com31_Sun, 13 Jan 2002 05:08:07 +0000372_- Noam, The first stage in the Oslo accords were "Gaza and Jericho First" which were the results of the Declaration of Principles from 1993. Israel for years had been looking for a way of pulling out of Gaza, but had to agree to give Jericho back as well to make the deal look more credible to the Palestinians. (Just my meager opinion). Hope you're doing well. Marc [...] 4949 303 14_Some good news0_13_Ezrox@aol.com29_Sun, 13 Jan 2002 08:49:42 EST750_ISO-8859-1 Kvutsat Yovel was there!!!

////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

Peace rally strikes chord in Jerusalem By Peter Hermann >From the Baltimore Sun December 29, 2001 JERUSALEM - Sari Nusseibeh returned to the New Imperial Hotel yesterday. This time, he wasn't stopped by Israeli police.

Earlier this month, authorities detained Nusseibeh, the chief PLO representative in East Jerusalem, for planning a holiday tea reception at the hotel, calling the event a challenge to Israel's sovereignty over Jerusalem. Yesterday, Nusseibeh led a political rally there complete with the Palestinian flag, under the auspices not of the PLO but of a new group, the Israeli-Palestinian Coalition for [...] 5253 31 8_clip art0_15_Marshlf@aol.com29_Sun, 13 Jan 2002 13:32:05 EST110_US-ASCII any one have a good source for jewish clip art? i've got the davka stuff; need more..... thanks, lisa 5285 98 15_Jewish Clip Art13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il31_Sun, 13 Jan 2002 20:48:09 +0200692_windows-1255 Hey Lisa (whoever you are), here are some sites with Jewish clip art:

http://home.wnm.net/~debi/jart.htm http://www.bitsela.com/passover.htm http://rats2u.com/clipart/animation/clipart_jewish.htm http://www.kidsdomain.com/holiday/chanukah/clip.html http://dir.coolclips.com/Celebrations/Religious_Images/Jewish_Judaism/ http://www.jr.co.il/hotsites/j-gifs.htm http://www.caryn.com/holiday/holiday-Hclipart.html http://www.kabsoft.com/pix.htm http://home.earthlink.net/~compugraphd/JCA1.html http://www.jhom.com/index.htm http://www.clipartgallery.com/holidays/jewish/jewish3.html http://www.sunnyday.org/meast/ http://www.demon.co.uk/magpie/joan/joansoftframe.html

5384 16 12_Re: clip art0_17_JackNusan@aol.com29_Sun, 13 Jan 2002 23:12:11 EST363_US-ASCII What is clipart? Jack porter

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 5401 185 11_Documentary0_13_SC523@aol.com29_Mon, 14 Jan 2002 00:23:22 EST603_ISO-8859-1 Dear Chevreh,

Those of you who know me personally know that my husband, Moshe Cotel, recently gave up being a composer of classical music and professor of music composition in order to enroll full time in rabbinical school. He is 1-1/2 years away from ordination, has a small part-time pulpit with 30 families (a little dollhouse/beautiful place), and is on his way to Uganda in February to assist a beit din of Conservative rabbis to convert 600 members of the Abayudaya tribe who began living halachic Jewish lives back in 1919 but never formally converted. As you can see, our [...] 5587 18 29_Looking for Cantor Deb Tanzer0_13_SC523@aol.com29_Mon, 14 Jan 2002 02:16:24 EST538_US-ASCII My email to Habonim alum/ Cantor Debbie Tanzer is bouncing back to me. Debbie - if you're out there (or anyone else who can confirm what her current email address is), please email me back. Thanks, Aliya

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 5606 215 57_Fw: 55 websites about Tu B'Shvat - The New Year for Trees7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Sun, 13 Jan 2002 22:50:34 +0200576_iso-8859-1 From: Jacob Richman Subject: OT: 55 websites about Tu B'Shvat - The New Year for Trees



> > Tu B'Shvat, the New Year for Trees, falls on the 15th of the > Hebrew month of Shvat, Monday, January 28th this year > (5762 / 2002). Jewish tradition marks the 15th of Shvat as > the day when the sap in the trees begins to rise, signalling > the earth's awakening from its winter slumber, and heralding > the beginning of Spring. This mini-holiday is of major > importance to our appreciation of Nature and our relationship > to it. [...] 5822 51 15_Re: Nahalat Ziv13_Shloime Perel21_itsmeshloime@yahoo.ca37_Mon, 14 Jan 2002 16:52:26 -0500 (EST)572_us-ascii Happy non-Jewish new year, and all the best for the rest of 5762!



Talking about Gesher Haziv, can someone describe and explain what is happening to Gesher Haziv. I'm sure I'm not the only one who would like to know.

Shloime (Sol) Perel

--- Green88888@aol.com wrote: > Hi all, > I am trying to find out more information about the > Nahalat project being > built next to Gesher Haziv. Could some one e-mail me > privately about this > project -especially who to contact. I will be in > Israel this summer . > Thanks a lot. Donna > [...] 5874 134 9_alliances16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Mon, 14 Jan 2002 21:52:29 -0500411_iso-8859-1 The new Triple Alliance

By Martin Walker Chief International Correspondent Published 1/13/2002 2:10 PM

WASHINGTON, Jan. 13 (UPI) -- No treaties have been signed, and few specific details of the military intelligence agreements have been made public. But the conviction is growing in diplomatic circles where attention must be paid to such developments that the world is witnessing [...] 6009 17 15_Re: Documentary0_17_JackNusan@aol.com29_Mon, 14 Jan 2002 23:27:44 EST468_US-ASCII Mazel Tov, Aliya. i will look forward to seeing it. And tell us more about that African conversion story.--My best, Jack Nusan porter

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 6027 71 15_Fwd: From Aliya0_13_SC523@aol.com29_Tue, 15 Jan 2002 01:40:20 EST283_US-ASCII Dear Habochevreh,

I received this from the mother of one of my daughter's best friends from Workshop. Can anyone out there help?

Please write to Joanie Yogev directly with a copy to me so I'll know it's been handled.

Thanks to anyone who can help, Aliya 6099 34 12_Re: clip art0_15_Marshlf@aol.com29_Tue, 15 Jan 2002 09:43:44 EST200_US-ASCII jackie-- clip art is/are pre-made pictures or drawings that you can use for publications. if you are lucky, you can find them online for free. other times, you have to pay a service fee. lisa 6134 224 13_Re: alliances13_Shloime Perel21_itsmeshloime@yahoo.ca37_Tue, 15 Jan 2002 13:44:49 -0500 (EST)638_us-ascii Grreetings! Is this really true about Israeli Special Forces fighting against Kurds (and killing Kurds?) Have they gone to other countries, as well?

Shloime (Sol) Perel

--- "Elihu D. Davison" wrote: > The new Triple Alliance > > By Martin Walker > Chief International Correspondent > Published 1/13/2002 2:10 PM > > WASHINGTON, Jan. 13 (UPI) -- No treaties have been > signed, and few > specific details of the military intelligence > agreements have been made > public. But the conviction is growing in diplomatic > circles where > attention must be paid to such developments that the [...] 6359 23 11_Nachlat Ziv0_17_Shulansid@aol.com29_Tue, 15 Jan 2002 17:32:29 EST571_US-ASCII Nachlat Ziv is a new neighbourhood which is attached to Gesher Haziv. We are selling plots and building houses for those who want to buy into it. Helen Frenkley has already been accepted to have a house built for her. It is contracted to be ready for use within three years of signing the contract. S o far, over 50 families have given deposits and within a short time, the building will start. The contractor is one of the most respected in the country. If your friend wants more information..brochures etc., he can write to Nachlat Ziv, Gesher Haziv, Zip [...] 6383 16 12_Re: clip art0_17_JackNusan@aol.com29_Wed, 16 Jan 2002 00:51:49 EST357_US-ASCII Thank you Lisa--Jackie

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 6400 19 15_Re: Nachlat Ziv0_17_JackNusan@aol.com29_Wed, 16 Jan 2002 01:06:30 EST298_US-ASCII Re: Nachlat Ziv: What are the costs for these houses? and who are they geared for? how big are they? for singles, couples, married with chilkdren, single with children? Send me a brochure and what the costs are to me: Jackie Porter, 17 Cross street, West Newton, MA 02465 USA Thanks. [...] 6420 75 18_"Purim Connection"0_15_NEVETS2@aol.com29_Wed, 16 Jan 2002 07:53:39 EST407_UTF-8 January 2002 Shevat 5762

Dear Friend,

The AMERICAN ZIONIST MOVEMENT is again launching the "Purim Connection" -- an opportunity to demonstrate the solidarity of American Jewry with soldiers who are at the front line of defense of the State of Israel. Especially during these trying times for Israel, any little thing that is done for these soldiers is a tremendous boost in morale. [...] 6496 88 18_Quotes from Arafat16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Wed, 16 Jan 2002 08:14:02 -0500653_us-ascii This was sent me by a friend who is a former Betari, from the Betar listserve.



----- Original Message ----- > Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 05:00:43 -0800 (PST) > From: Islamic Association For Palestine -

> Assalamu'alaikum, > > Arafat: "Israel murders our children and use their organs as "spare parts" > for organ-transplants" > > Occupied Jerusalem: 14 January, 2002 (IAP News) > > Palestinian Authority Chairman Yasser Arafat has accused the Israeli > apartheid regime of murdering Palestinian children and youths and > extricating their vital organs for organ transplants. > > "They murder our kids [...] 6585 41 15_Re: Nachlat Ziv0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Wed, 16 Jan 2002 11:15:03 EST193_US-ASCII In a message dated 1/16/2002 1:07:29 AM Eastern Standard Time, JackNusan@aol.com writes:



> Re: Nachlat Ziv:

Yeah, me too. You're tuggin' at my strings now! Dennis 6627 40 15_Re: Nachlat Ziv0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Wed, 16 Jan 2002 11:16:00 EST224_US-ASCII In a message dated 1/16/2002 1:07:29 AM Eastern Standard Time, JackNusan@aol.com writes:



> Re: Nachlat Ziv:

Sorry, guess I got too excited. Dennis Lerner 106 Scottholm Blvd., Syracuse, NY 13224 6668 30 15_Re: Nachlat Ziv0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Wed, 16 Jan 2002 11:39:35 EST546_US-ASCII I had first heard about this from an article in the Jerusalem Post more than a month ago- and when I asked about it- I got no response. I found out that the concept was to attract young families to GH; the chevre don't want to set up a "retirement" atmosphere, but rather attract people who would be a positive and growing part of the community. I was outraged at first- but after having communicated with Rhea, I found out that there is no age discrimination- but there are three basic criteria: 1- that you can pay for the house, [...] 6699 21 41_Workshop celebration and June Kumsitz....0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Wed, 16 Jan 2002 11:43:03 EST410_US-ASCII I heard a "rumor" that there is to be a Workshop celebration in honor of the 50th Anniversary of the program in NY the first weekend in June- which would coincide with the annual kumsitz...Is this true?Does anyone now anything about this?...How about us "Fun in the sun" 11th WS people? I want to take advantage of low airfares--so if anything is planned, could someone make it official??? Susie [...] 6721 307 31_Really down to the wire, Chevre0_15_NEVETS2@aol.com29_Wed, 16 Jan 2002 17:45:43 EST326_US-ASCII Chevre, shalom

Today is Wednesday, January 16. Registration for the rapidly-approaching American elections to the World Zionist Congress ends in only 2 days - on Friday, Jan 18. If you don't register by then you will not be counted among America's Zionists. You won't be counted as a supporter of Israel. [...] 7029 89 22_Re: "Purim Connection"14_Ethan Schwartz24_schwar1@netvision.net.il31_Thu, 17 Jan 2002 08:14:31 +0200420_UTF-8 I remember receiving a package from the "New York City Jewish Teachers Association" when I was a soldier, I don't remember what was in it but I remember the warm feeling it gave me. Please continue giving. Our soldiers need it now more then ever.

Ethan ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2002 2:53 PM Subject: "Purim Connection" [...] 7119 125 22_RE: "Purim Connection"11_Batel Libes25_batel_libes@earthlink.net31_Wed, 16 Jan 2002 22:51:20 -0800431_UTF-8 I remember getting wool socks. I was in "koors ma'kiut" and it was the middle of winter, and it was wonderful. The chocolate wasn't all that bad either. Batel

-----Original Message----- From: owner-habonet@shamash.org [mailto:owner-habonet@shamash.org]On Behalf Of Ethan Schwartz Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2002 10:15 PM To: Habonim Dror Alumni Virtual Machaneh; NEVETS2@aol.com Subject: Re: "Purim Connection" [...] 7245 30 45_Re: Workshop celebration and June Kumsitz....0_13_SC523@aol.com29_Thu, 17 Jan 2002 02:09:24 EST498_US-ASCII

In a message dated 1/16/02 11:45:23 AM, LiberHawke@aol.com writes:

<< I heard a "rumor" that there is to be a Workshop celebration in honor of the 50th Anniversary of the program in NY the first weekend in June- which would coincide with the annual kumsitz...Is this true?Does anyone now anything about this?...How about us "Fun in the sun" 11th WS people? I want to take advantage of low airfares--so if anything is planned, could someone make it official??? Susie >> [...] 7276 202 22_Re: "Purim Connection"21_Tsippi (Frances) Rudy19_tsippi@mediaone.net31_Thu, 17 Jan 2002 01:09:08 -0800617_iso-8859-1 Dear Steve,

What percentage of the donation goes to Sar-El from the AZM? Isn't there a way to make a donation more directly?

Tsippi

At 04:53 AM 1/16/02, you wrote: >January 2002 >Shevat 5762 > >Dear Friend, > >The AMERICAN ZIONIST MOVEMENT is again launching the "Purim Connection" -- an >opportunity to demonstrate the solidarity of American Jewry with soldiers who >are at the front line of defense of the State of Israel. Especially during >these trying times for Israel, any little thing that is done for these >soldiers is a tremendous boost in morale. > >To make the "Purim [...] 7479 42 21_purim words and music0_18_Brianscoop@aol.com29_Thu, 17 Jan 2002 08:10:39 EST168_US-ASCII Anyone know where on the Web to find printable music for Purim songs?

Thanks, brian

----------------------------- Brian Cooper brianscoop@aol.com 7522 216 71_Fw: Saudi and other Arab Intellectuals: The Fault Lies in Our Education7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Thu, 17 Jan 2002 00:34:10 +0200578_iso-8859-1 Sorry to burden, but I found this article enlightening. Thought some of you would find it interesting. Reminds me of the saying that it is not important what the truth is but what you PERCEIVE to be the truth. Denial in arab world is rampant and we see it all around us. p.s. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "MEMRI" > To: "MEMRI Subscribers" > Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 1:45 PM > Subject: Saudi and other Arab Intellectuals: The Fault Lies in Our Education > > > > Special Dispatch - Jihad and Terrorism Studies [...] 7739 32 10_Re: denial11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Thu, 17 Jan 2002 10:25:49 -0500353_us-ascii Skolnik wrote:

> Sorry to burden, but I found this article enlightening. Thought some of you > would find it interesting.

Indeed. Thanks Pearl.

> Reminds me of the saying that it is not > important what the truth is but what you PERCEIVE to be the truth. Denial > in arab world is rampant and we see it all around us. [...] 7772 52 10_Re: denial21_Tsippi (Frances) Rudy19_tsippi@mediaone.net31_Thu, 17 Jan 2002 09:09:06 -0800225_us-ascii

> >"Stop the violins!" anonymous

Not anonymous, but spoken by the late, great Gilda Radner, playing the character Emily Litella on Saturday Night Live back in the good old days.





7825 44 8_Avi Boaz0_16_tanah@zianet.com29_Fri, 18 Jan 2002 11:43:02 GMT409_us-ascii

Dear fellow Habonim alumnae,

Those of you who are in close touch with Israel, already know that Avi Boaz was murdered in Israel on Tuesday. If any of you would like details, please write me off list and I will forward articles from the NY Times, Washington Post, the Associated Press, and others. Others continue to come it from friends who spend more time on the net than I can. [...] 7870 1030 41_Avi Boaz Article in Ha'aretz's Anglo-File9_R. Shultz18_lzac@securenet.net31_Fri, 18 Jan 2002 10:05:06 -0500452_iso-8859-1 U.S-born terror victim was stalwart of Beit Jala

By Karen Saul









Boaz: Everyone in Beit Jala knew him. (Photo: )

Architect Avi Boaz, killed on Tuesday by Palestinian gunmen near Beit Sahur in the West Bank, felt far more connected to the people in Beit Jala and its environs as well as to the land itself, than anywhere else, his son-in-law Evyatar Cohen told Anglo File on Wednesday. [...] 8901 46 12_Re: Avi Boaz0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Fri, 18 Jan 2002 11:38:24 EST282_US-ASCII I did not know Avi Boaz, but it is clear that we are are poorer for the loss of him. In such situations I think we naturally have two immediate responses; one is rage against the evil "them" and the other is to attempt to find some logic, some meaning for this death. [...] 8948 17 12_Re: Avi Boaz0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Fri, 18 Jan 2002 13:05:03 EST438_US-ASCII Thank you Dennis for your clarity and thoughts!-- I don't think Golda could have said it better!- susie

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 8966 27 21_what would Golda say?11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Fri, 18 Jan 2002 13:09:54 -0500622_us-ascii

LiberHawke@aol.com wrote:

> Thank you Dennis for your clarity and thoughts!-- I don't think Golda could > have said it better!- susie

Susie - Didn't Golda say "there are no Palestinians"?

Dennis - thanks for helping to keep things in perspective.

Noam

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 8994 28 25_Re: what would Golda say?0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Fri, 18 Jan 2002 16:15:05 EST608_US-ASCII Well, here we go- I agree with her- that here are no "Palestinians" (if you remember- before the State was declared, "Palestine" was inhabited by Jews and Arabs; in my mind- and this is MY OWN naive and politically simplistic opinion- "Palestinians" are really Arabs who were- for whatever reason- displaced and not wanted or absorbed by either Jordan or Egypt-) (Please don't forget that Jews were displaced by Arab countries and were "taken care of" by being offered living quarters, job training, health care, education, etc.) She also had the uncanny ability to see both sides of a tragedy [...] 9023 64 6_notice8_ericmoli25_ericmoli@netvision.net.il31_Sat, 19 Jan 2002 09:35:41 +0200384_windows-1255





HI ALL,

SORRY FOR NOT HAVE KEPT UP WITH OUR CORRESPONDENCE BUT, AS SOME OF YOU KNOW, OUR COMPUTER WAS SUFFERING FROM A CONNECTION PROBLEM FOR A LONG TIME. YESTERDAY, THE TECHNICIAN VISITED US, AGAIN ( AND AGAIN) AND, HOPEFULLY HE FOUND THE SOLUTION TO ALL OF THE COMPUTER'S PROBLEMS.

IT'S GOOD TO BE BACK IN CIRCULATION, AGAIN. [...] 9088 438 27_"My Camel Ate the Manifest"13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il31_Sat, 19 Jan 2002 17:40:11 +0200683_windows-1255



'My Camel Ate the Manifest' Our readers explain it all to Colin Powell.

BY JAMES TARANTO Monday, January 14, 2002 12:01 a.m. EST "Powell Wants Explanation From Arafat"--Associated Press headline, Jan. 11 Friday's Best of the Web Today
Enjoy the thrill of registering late (If you haven't done so already)

Shhhh! Seems that AZM hasn't really shut down the online registration site. I'm at a party and people are registering like crazy.

Go to www.azm.org with your credit card and follow the instructions.

Just do it!

:)

Chaver Steve

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 9556 35 33_interview with Prof.Bernard Lewis7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Sat, 19 Jan 2002 23:39:20 +0200696_windows-1255 The article below was very illuminating and I think that you will find it interesting. As Yonatan writes, it is a rare interview, and should enlighten us all. pearl



> Dear friends and family worldwide: Jewsweek.com has just published my > translation of a rare interview with Prof. Bernard Lewis, the world famous > historian of Islam. You may reach the page with the article directly by > using the following URL: > > http://www.jewsweek.com/israel/092.htm > > Enjoy, Jonathan > > > _________________________________________________________________ > MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: > http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx > [...] 9592 20 15_Re: Nachlat Ziv0_17_JackNusan@aol.com29_Mon, 21 Jan 2002 01:18:10 EST383_US-ASCII I agree with Susie and why do you have to be an Israeli citizen? Can't an Amerian citizen buy a home or condo in Israel? Also, can one have both an Israeli and an American passport? I agree with Susie--there should be a mix of people. Aren't there fair housing laws in Israel? Apparently not. I'm writing Gesher haziv directly for info on costs, etc? Jack Nusan porter [...] 9613 17 15_Re: Nachlat Ziv0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Mon, 21 Jan 2002 12:40:08 EST383_US-ASCII Jack please pass along what info you get. Dennis

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 9631 32 21_Rabbi Dan Ehrenkrantz0_15_NEVETS2@aol.com29_Mon, 21 Jan 2002 13:30:10 EST384_US-ASCII Chevre Shalom

No more about registering. It's over.

This week, though, Rabbi Dan Ehrenkrantz was appointed President of the Reconstructionist Rabbinical College in Philadelphia.

We know he's an alum of Habonim, but we know not which camps he attended and when, or which ken he participated in and when.

Any helpful info would be appreciated. [...] 9664 22 25_Re: Rabbi Dan Ehrenkrantz0_18_Brianscoop@aol.com29_Mon, 21 Jan 2002 14:44:57 EST509_US-ASCII Now now, Steve... he's an alum... Why don't we see if he's interested in Habonet!

Faithfully yours (pardon the pun), brian cooper ------------------ brianscoop@aol.com

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 9687 447 118_=?iso-8859-1?Q?=E4=F2=E1=F8=E4:_Personal_Note_on_Avi_Braverman_=28B?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?oaz=29_Mutilated_and_Murdered_-?=8_ericmoli25_ericmoli@netvision.net.il31_Mon, 21 Jan 2002 22:28:57 +0200348_iso-8859-1 Dear Jessica, Bob, Debbie and anyone who had known Avi Braverman,

I think that the following will be of interest to you.

Shalom, Mollie ----- Original Message ----- From: Pnina Some To: Mollie Eric Marx Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2002 6:52 PM Subject: Fw: Personal Note on Avi Braverman (Boaz) Mutilated and Murdered - [...] 10135 41 25_Re: Rabbi Dan Ehrenkrantz16_Nomi Stolzenberg20_nstolzen@law.usc.edu37_Mon, 21 Jan 2002 16:26:56 -0800 (PST)566_US-ASCII Danny went to Naaleh, in the seventies. I would love to know how to get in touch with him.



On Mon, 21 Jan 2002 NEVETS2@aol.com wrote:

> Chevre Shalom > > No more about registering. It's over. > > This week, though, Rabbi Dan Ehrenkrantz was appointed President of the > Reconstructionist Rabbinical College in Philadelphia. > > We know he's an alum of Habonim, but we know not which camps he attended and > when, or which ken he participated in and when. > > Any helpful info would be appreciated. > > Galil is thrilled to have a [...] 10177 34 25_Re: Rabbi Dan Ehrenkrantz0_13_SC523@aol.com29_Tue, 22 Jan 2002 01:20:21 EST576_US-ASCII Whoa - hold our collective horses, and let's make this connection the correct way - through some process, please. DAnny Ehrenkrantz isn't the first one to be a Habo connection to Recon - David Teutsch, the President for quite a good many years, sent his son on and off to Galil and Zachary stays active with the chevreh to this day. Reena Spicehandler just stepped down this past year as Dean of Students and has a pulpit in Bucks County. Leila Berner was a prominent RRC professor/scholar and now has a pulpit in Alexandria. Yael Ridberg is the youngest female [...] 10212 18 25_Re: Rabbi Dan Ehrenkrantz0_15_Marshlf@aol.com29_Tue, 22 Jan 2002 12:20:15 EST461_ISO-8859-1 excuse me for not knowing this, but why does there seem to be some sort of animosity towards the recon movement?

lisa

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 10231 18 25_Re: Rabbi Dan Ehrenkrantz0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Tue, 22 Jan 2002 12:27:23 EST511_US-ASCII lehefech!- I got the impression that we should be proud that we have so many chevre associated with this--how did youget the idea there was a negative tone to the emails?...sue

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 10250 54 36_Fw: 14 Hebrew songs about Tu B'Shvat7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Tue, 22 Jan 2002 16:43:56 +0200616_iso-8859-1 I take the liberty to send you Jacob's additional message about the songbook. pearl

----- Original Message ----- From: Jacob Richman To: Informal Aliyah discussion group Sent: Monday, January 21, 2002 10:44 AM Subject: OT: 14 Hebrew songs about Tu B'Shvat



> Hi Everyone! > > Tu B'Shvat, the New Year for Trees, falls on the 15th of the > Hebrew month of Shvat, Monday, January 28th this year > (5762 / 2002). > > I added 14 Hebrew songs, with nikud (vowels), about Tu B'Shvat > to My Hebrew Songbook. All songs are in graphic format so [...] 10305 168 13_some sad news14_Jessica Silver26_foundation@habonimdror.org31_Tue, 22 Jan 2002 13:37:04 -0500433_iso-8859-1 January 03, 2002 Alfred Glassman, 74, formerly of Sharon Founded Universal Publishing Co.

Alfred Glassman, 74, of Belmont, formerly of Sharon, died Tuesday, Dec. 25, 2001, at the Beth Israel Deaconess Hospital in Boston. He was the husband of Lisa Gregorian Glassman and the late Geraldine (Frank) Glassman.

Born in Boston, he was raised and educated in Jewish Dorchester. He was an inveterate Zionist. [...] 10474 23 15_Re: Nachlat Ziv0_18_Green88888@aol.com29_Tue, 22 Jan 2002 17:09:28 EST557_US-ASCII By the number of responses inquiring about Nachalat Ziv, it appears that there are a good many of us now in our fifties who are contemplating reurning to Israel in the next four or five years. I know Susie has put out a feeler before on this topic:is there a need for some sort of a garin for "more mature" people? There is strength and support in numbers-planning together, buying apartments together(might bring down some costs), shipping etc. What do some of you think? If the need is there, what can we do to organize? What do some of you [...] 10498 16 15_Re: Nachlat Ziv0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Tue, 22 Jan 2002 17:30:02 EST347_US-ASCII Bring it on.

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 10515 20 140_=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=E4=F2=E1=F8=E4:=20Personal=20Note=20on=20A?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?vi=20Braverman=20(Boaz)=20Mutilated=20and=20Murdered=20-?=0_17_JackNusan@aol.com29_Tue, 22 Jan 2002 21:38:39 EST576_US-ASCII The death of Avi Boaz is one of the most moving stories I have read about this conflict. It shows how the younger membrs of Fatah and Hamas know nothing of past or even present good relations. All Jews are the enemy.

Jack Nusan porter

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 10536 38 122_=?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_=E4=F2=E1=F8=E4:_Personal_Note_on_Avi_Braverman_=28Boa?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?z=29_Mutilated_and_Murdered_-?=14_Jessica Silver26_foundation@habonimdror.org31_Wed, 23 Jan 2002 09:37:17 -0500535_iso-8859-1 Obviously a great many people have been affected by the death of Avi Boaz. I have added Avi to the People Finder's Memoriam page (www.habonimdrorfoundation.org/people) and whoever feels it appropriate can add their own words of remembrance for Avi.

Jessica



-----Original Message----- From: JackNusan@aol.com To: habonet@shamash.org Date: Tuesday, January 22, 2002 9:38 PM Subject: Re: : Personal Note on Avi Braverman (Boaz) Mutilated and Murdered - [...] 10575 16 15_Re: Nachlat Ziv0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Wed, 23 Jan 2002 12:33:44 EST401_US-ASCII Ahh- stirrings of the prophetic Alte Kaker garin--....I am in....s

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 10592 62 73_Re: : Personal Note on Avi Braverman (Boaz) Mutilated and Murdered -13_Shloime Perel21_itsmeshloime@yahoo.ca37_Wed, 23 Jan 2002 12:43:38 -0500 (EST)421_us-ascii Greetings!

I hope that something can be started in Habonim in memory of Avi. Maybe a book, an anthology, about his life.

As tragic as is his death, I believe, if he could speak to us now, that he would want us to redouble our efforts for peace. I think that the terrorists notwithstanding, the Israeli government, with sufficient effort, energy, ingenuity and willpower can bring about peace. [...] 10655 42 8_Avi Boaz0_13_JLCAA@aol.com29_Wed, 23 Jan 2002 14:20:30 EST579_US-ASCII

While I didnt know him personally, like many on this list, I too have been moved by the murder of Avi Boaz. It is tempting to say that this murder was a watershed event, but there have been far too many such events since Camp David II.

What bothers me about his murder, and the murder of the Arab driver of a Red Crescent vehicle with Israeli license tags, carrying medical supplies for Palestinians in the West Bank, is that they symbolize the total rejection of rapprochement with Israel - the State and the people. This rejection does not appear [...] 10698 27 12_Re: Avi Boaz0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Wed, 23 Jan 2002 15:23:32 EST605_US-ASCII I had dinner with my son the other night- and part of the conversation revolved, as always, around Israel- and again- the only conclusions and solutions were those of complete isolation, closing borders, and not even acknowledging the "Palestinians" as neighbors, etc ( maybe it is time ot get the labor back into Jewish-Israeli hands!- maybe ithis is payback Karma time for depending on foeign hands to do our dirty work!)..because there is no dealing with people who have no regard for life, repsect for other people's lives as well as their own, who consistently rage and scream for your [...] 10726 25 12_Jewish labor13_Avi Rosenberg16_avi@gezer.org.il31_Thu, 24 Jan 2002 08:02:40 +0200325_us-ascii Hi Susie The labor has been in Thai and Eastern European hands for quite some time now.





At 15:23 23/01/02 -0500, you wrote: > ( maybe it is time ot get >the labor back into Jewish-Israeli hands!- maybe ithis is payback Karma time >for depending on foeign hands to do our dirty work!).. > [...] 10752 978 40_'Cycle of Violence' Is a Middle East Lie16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Thu, 24 Jan 2002 09:59:34 -0500123_us-ascii

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-000005721jan23.story?coll=la%2Dnews%2Dcomment%2Dopinions 11731 363 44_Re: 'Cycle of Violence' Is a Middle East Lie9_R. Shultz18_lzac@securenet.net31_Thu, 24 Jan 2002 10:38:36 -0500565_iso-8859-1 'Cycle of Violence' Is a Middle East LieHi, I'm Reuven Shultz. I work for the Labour Zionist Alliance in Montreal. I'd like to put in my two cents. As much as I would like to agree with Halevy's article, I think it is simplistic. There is a cycle of violence. And as far as I know there is an occupation, and historically, subject people usually revolt. Bad economic conditions, such as those witnessed recently in Argentina also cause revolt. Desperate people who are in have no hope do horrible things. They say, if they are going to turn my life [...] 12095 17 16_Re: Jewish labor0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Thu, 24 Jan 2002 12:54:09 EST460_US-ASCII So what is all of the outcry about from the Palestinians and their losing their jobs when Israel shuts its borders????? susie

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 12113 48 22_Verrrrrrry interesting0_15_DebALev@aol.com29_Thu, 24 Jan 2002 14:47:58 EST643_US-ASCII I wonder

1. if this is true 2. if it is being sent around the net widely, which it should be if it is indeed true

Debbie

---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 19:04:30 EST From: KISSCOOK@aol.com Subject: (no subject)

> Subject: censored information

Terrorist pilot Mohammad Atta blew up a bus in Israel in 1986. The Israelis captured, tried and imprisoned him. As part of the Oslo agreement Israel had to agree to release so called "political prisoners". However, they would not release any with "blood on their hands". A well meaning (????) American President, Ronald [...] 12162 16 26_Re: Verrrrrrry interesting0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Thu, 24 Jan 2002 14:54:36 EST396_US-ASCII I had read this a while ago- and I think it must be true....s

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 12179 119 26_Re: Verrrrrrry interesting0_15_Marshlf@aol.com29_Thu, 24 Jan 2002 15:00:08 EST633_UTF-8 read below, taken from urbanlegends.about.com





Comments: Well, if we're going to play the blame game, let's at least get the identity of the terrorist right. It was not Muhammad Atta — believed to be the mastermind behind the September attacks on the World Trade Center and Pentagon — who was convicted of the 1986 bombing and machine gun attack on a bus in Samaria, sentenced to life imprisonment and later released. It was Mahmoud Abed Atta, a Palestinian associated with the Abu Nidal terror organization. They are not the same person. According to the Jerusalem Post, Mahmoud Abed Atta fled [...] 12299 20 40_Web page referral: http://www.snopes.com0_19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il31_Thu, 24 Jan 2002 14:01:04 -0500576_- I thought this entry from the Urban Legends Reference Pages might interest you:

http://www.snopes2.com/rumors/atta.htm

Well, not so verrry interesting, as it turns out. Another "urban legend", I'm afraid. Sorry about that. Jon



------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 12320 19 26_Re: Verrrrrrry interesting0_15_DebALev@aol.com29_Thu, 24 Jan 2002 15:16:30 EST482_US-ASCII Thank you! I appreciate the clarification. It sounded kinda fishy to me, especially since it hadn't been picked up by the press here.

Debbie

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 12340 23 44_Re: Web page referral: http://www.snopes.com0_15_DebALev@aol.com29_Thu, 24 Jan 2002 15:18:21 EST335_US-ASCII Jon, thanks. I usually DO check out the snopes site.....and if any of you want TONS of email, a lot of it very funny, you too can sign up for the snopes email list.

Interestingly, the person who sent this to me knows about snopes and I've often suggested that she check it before she sends out stuff. Oh well..... [...] 12364 55 26_Re: Verrrrrrry interesting16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Fri, 25 Jan 2002 09:47:41 -0500526_us-ascii Deb Levenstein wrote in Habonet 2128

> I wonder > > 1. if this is true > 2. if it is being sent around the net widely, which it should be if > it is > indeed true > > Debbie > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 19:04:30 EST > From: KISSCOOK@aol.com > Subject: (no subject) > > > Subject: censored information > > Terrorist pilot Mohammad Atta blew up a bus in Israel in > 1986. The Israelis captured, tried and imprisoned him. As > part of the Oslo agreement Israel had to [...] 12420 126 28_Fwd: the ship of arms: FACTS14_Tana Hemingway16_tanah@zianet.com31_Fri, 25 Jan 2002 13:10:00 -0700182_us-ascii

--- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.303 / Virus Database: 164 - Release Date: 11/24/01 12547 42 27_Re: the ship of arms: FACTS0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Fri, 25 Jan 2002 23:48:08 EST512_US-ASCII the latet news here today was that the US was threatening to withdraw recognition of the PA. it has seemed that the Bush administration is very much insinc with Israel's reprisal policy and has stopped talking about the moral equivalency. Zinni's return to peace talks has been postponed with no date set. if there is question about the PA's role in the weapons deal vs Hamas or whatever, its lost on most Americans, who see Palestinians as Palestinians...as arabs. The fine distinctions are lost. [...] 12590 22 12_Ship of Arms12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Sat, 26 Jan 2002 09:30:37 +0200396_us-ascii

> >Dennis I'm 100% with you on this one.

Amnon

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 12613 47 11_acknowledge12_Stan Goldman17_stan@zahav.net.il31_Sat, 26 Jan 2002 10:19:32 +0200182_windows-1255 It would make me feel good if goverments and editors would acknowledge evil and act against it. But would that prevent what may come and cause some Arabs to want peace ? 12661 60 47_Looking for a Hebrew linguist in Manhattan area9_Martin S.20_emskol@bellsouth.net31_Sat, 26 Jan 2002 11:56:33 -0500588_iso-8859-1 Hi all,

At the request of a dear (non-Jewish) friend in Manhattan who is obviously a linguist, I post the following....thanks in advance, Marty Skolnik (emskol@bellsouth.net)

********

"I was just now struggling with that Hebrew textbook I got this past week -- I say "struggling" but I love every perversely difficult line -- Haim B. Rosen is one person I would hate to meet in a dark alley in Tel-Aviv! -- and it occurred to me that I've now stuck with Hebrew long enough for it to be more than just one of my language fads (Finnish, for example, or [...] 12722 63 16_Re: Ship of Arms13_Shloime Perel21_itsmeshloime@yahoo.ca37_Sat, 26 Jan 2002 15:55:37 -0500 (EST)365_us-ascii Happy Tu Bishvat to Everyone!

I hope we redouble our efforts for the earth, for nonhuman fellow creatures and for Jewish vegetarianism.

I'd like to say hi to Amnon, as someone who was one of our beloved madrichim on the 1961-62 Workshop in Gesher Haziv. I'll write you something.

On the ship, I don't think it has been shown that [...] 12786 53 10_Mark Twain16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Sat, 26 Jan 2002 13:45:02 -0500589_us-ascii An excerpt from Mark Twain's September, 1899 article on Jews and anti-Semitism, published in Harpers' Weekly.

"If the statistics are right, the Jews constitute but one percent of the

human race. It suggests a nebulous dim puff of star dust lost in the blaze of the Milky Way. Properly the Jew ought hardly be heard of; but he is heard of, has always been heard of. He is as prominent on the planet as any other people, and his commercial importance is extravagantly out of proportion to the smallness of his bulk. His contributions to the world's list of great [...] 12840 36 16_Re: Ship of Arms0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Sun, 27 Jan 2002 00:12:42 EST523_US-ASCII THere definately seems to be room (plenty of room) for a kindness initiative. I'd wouldn't mind seeing the Israeli military installing a sewer system in an area of gaza. Israeli volunteers helping to rebuild houses, ala Habitiat for humanity. the chance for people to work and produce something together as members of the human race, would certainly be a positive thing. i know there is "lots" of medical humanitarianism, but there are certainly lots of other potential avenues of people to people diplomacy. [...] 12877 19 14_Re: Mark Twain0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Sun, 27 Jan 2002 00:18:05 EST542_US-ASCII I didn't see anything in there about our contributions to self government. I wonder why. i learned that every coin has two sides. With all those extravagent gifts, what do you suppose is our weakness? Dennis

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 12897 54 16_Re: Ship of Arms12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Sun, 27 Jan 2002 08:04:42 +0200538_us-ascii

>Hi Shloime, I wouldn't give a character reference to either Sharon or Arafat. They are both war lords. But as an inveterate liar Arafat probably wins on points. Do you remember that one of the slang definitions for *tzimhoni* is someone with scruples? If one has compunctions about killing people in any circumstance (except self-defense in cases of unmistakably clear and present danger ) he can't qualify for the opposite pole - being a *killer* - pronounced keeler here. Me I prefer to sup with tzimhonim. Amnon [...] 12952 254 12_Ship of Arms12_Doug Greener25_ddwgreen@netvision.net.il31_Sun, 27 Jan 2002 11:43:43 +0200556_iso-8859-1

----- Original Message ----- From: "Joel Gannotti" To: "Betsy Greenstone-Garnet" ; "Dale Romano" ; "Elliott, Annette Saslow" ; "Jeff Rubin" ; "Matt Greenstone" Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2002 9:01 AM Subject: Opportunity for creativity

Subject: From the Wall Street Journal Opinion page: Excuses for Arafat "Powell Wants Explanation From Arafat"--Associated Press headline, Jan. 11 [...] 13207 41 14_Re: Mark Twain0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com29_Sun, 27 Jan 2002 12:12:01 EST203_US-ASCII In a message dated 1/27/02 12:18:32 AM Eastern Standard Time, DLerner569@aol.com writes:



> With all those > extravagent gifts, what do you suppose is our weakness?

humility 13249 806 72_The Jerusalem Post Newspaper : Online News From Israel - Opinion Article16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Sun, 27 Jan 2002 12:31:02 -050084_us-ascii

http://www.jpost.com/Editions/2002/01/25/Opinion/Opinion.42302.html 14056 54 27_Re: the ship of arms: FACTS0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Sun, 27 Jan 2002 12:44:49 EST635_US-ASCII In a message dated 1/25/02 8:48:52 PM Pacific Standard Time, DLerner569@aol.com writes:



> you mention kindness and I'm unaware of kindness being offered to the > Palestinians by Israel. > >

Are you suggesting we keep killing ourselves with kindness?- I know of specific individual acts of "kindness"- our own Ami Cohen, z"l, operated on Palestinian children who needed help free of charge via his "Save a Child's Heart" foundation, and I know that one-on-one- there are other examples of individuals or groups trying to bridge the gap- But how do you deal with a government which continues to allow [...] 14111 44 14_Re: Mark Twain0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Sun, 27 Jan 2002 12:48:21 EST426_US-ASCII In a message dated 1/26/02 9:18:26 PM Pacific Standard Time, DLerner569@aol.com writes:



> what do you suppose is our weakness? >

One of them is that we continue to live as idealists who expect the rest of the world to believe in the same ideals...We don't know how to go into an enemy city and blow up innocent people- we believe int he sanctity of life (we may blow up their homes, though!)...s 14156 30 9_To Dennis0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Sun, 27 Jan 2002 13:02:08 EST547_US-ASCII

Dear Dennis- I am posting this publicly because I am amazed and thankful for your questions and thoughts that you have been writing here for Habonim chevre and I want to thank you. Your insights and thoughts are provoking and fair- and have sparked some desire form me, at least- to reply and to think about a lot of things. SO--Thanks--- I wish there were a way for us to do something about what is going on- but I feel helpless and despite the fact that I am thankful that my work is in some way promoting an education for [...] 14187 68 14_Fw: Mark Twain7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Sun, 27 Jan 2002 00:33:41 +0200503_iso-8859-1 I just found this in my mailbox. Sometimes we have to read what others think of us so we can keep our heads up and hope in the heart. Does anyone know why Twain was so pro-Jewish? Does this have any connection with his trip to Eretz Yisrael in 19th century? What is the origin of his positive feelings towards Jews? pearl ----- Original Message ----- From: Elihu D. Davison To: Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2002 8:45 PM Subject: Mark Twain [...] 14256 42 14_Re: Mark Twain11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Sun, 27 Jan 2002 14:29:11 -0500450_us-ascii LiberHawke@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 1/26/02 9:18:26 PM Pacific Standard Time, DLerner569@aol.com writes: > >> what do you suppose is our weakness? > > One of them is that we continue to live as idealists who expect the rest of the world to believe in the same ideals...We don't know how to go into an enemy city and blow up innocent people- we believe int he sanctity of life (we may blow up their homes, though!)...s [...] 14299 36 14_Re: Mark Twain0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Sun, 27 Jan 2002 15:03:52 EST518_US-ASCII Noam Am I the only one it occurs to that : 1. there must be a substantial 3rd column among the Palestinians to alert Israel to where the terrorists are who keep being either rounded up or blown up. 2. while innocents are killed by both sides, and armies contain murderers, it is not the policy of the Israeli government to kill innocents (nor in fairness to go after murderers in the military -- though there are surely exceptions). Neither of these observations would appear to apply to the other side. [...] 14336 28 13_Re: To Dennis0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Sun, 27 Jan 2002 15:10:49 EST411_US-ASCII How about we get our friends in Eretz to take the prefab units from the most vulnerable/recent settlement and relocate them to a town we have torn houses down in. That is positive from three point: 1. It eliminates a settlement, 2. it dumbfounds our enemy with a humanitarian act, 3. it says to the world that we are not out to destroy the Palestinians (unless its by killing them with kindness.) [...] 14365 102 54_proposal for chesed to Arabs (reply to recent letters)7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Sun, 27 Jan 2002 22:23:02 +0200546_iso-8859-1 Chaverim, After the Six Day War Israel did indeed try to help the Arabs in the camps: we offered to build housing estates and do away with the camps. The Arabs turned down the deal, because that would put an end to the problem and they did not want an end to the refugee problem. The refugees would lose their refugee status and this they refused. There were some housing estates that we managed to build there, but not much. Arab every day life is a thousand times better than it was under Egypt and Jordan, although in the last [...] 14468 66 67_Re: East is east and west is west and neither shall meet Mark Twain11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Sun, 27 Jan 2002 17:43:17 -0500561_us-ascii DLerner569@aol.com wrote:

> Noam > Am I the only one it occurs to that : > 1. there must be a substantial 3rd column among the Palestinians to alert > Israel to where the terrorists are who keep being either rounded up or blown > up.

Dennis,

Of course this occurs to me. Though when people on this list say things like "we should kill them all" or "they all want us dead", (some of the same people who want to build houses and playgrounds in various villages) I think one has to recongnize that there are a substantial number [...] 14535 73 67_Re: East is east and west is west and neither shall meet Mark Twain0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Sun, 27 Jan 2002 18:18:17 EST560_US-ASCII In a message dated 1/27/02 2:48:13 PM Pacific Standard Time, stopak@orionsci.com writes:



> Though when people on this > list say things like "we should kill them all" or "they all want > us dead", (some of the same people who want to build > houses and playgrounds in various villages) I think one has > to recongnize that there are a substantial number of people > on this list who (at least at times) see the Palestinians as a > monolithic hateful mob. Does it occur to you that some of > the people fingering people to be blown [...] 14609 21 67_Re: East is east and west is west and neither shall meet Mark Twain0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Sun, 27 Jan 2002 23:31:42 EST297_US-ASCII Where do i send my check. Its not avodah atz'meet, but we must all do what we can. Sure beats sitting in the dark and complaining. (by the by, that remark is directed at NO ONE -- I know how sensitive we all are). Anyway, its bedtime now. lilah tov. and please keep a light burning. [...] 14631 70 42_I just got a virus - subject family photos9_CarmiDave20_carmdave@urim.org.il31_Mon, 28 Jan 2002 16:00:07 +0200292_windows-1255 Chevre-

I just got a virus with the subject line - New photos of my family

Luckily, my anti-virus caught it before it was able to activate.....

BE WARNED !!!

BTW, Israel radio was reporting a new virus today - guess this was it....

Dave Holtzer 14702 52 67_Re: East is east and west is west and neither shall meet Mark Twain11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Mon, 28 Jan 2002 09:11:32 -0500381_us-ascii

Dear Sue,

LiberHawke@aol.com wrote:

> Since this definitely refers to me- I need to respond- I admit to all of those feelings- At times I would like to, as some of my friends out here who are not ardent Zionists say, "nuke 'em all," but all of the time, I want to so something "kind" and feel helpless...That is the tragedy of the situation.... [...] 14755 45 67_Re: East is east and west is west and neither shall meet Mark Twain0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Mon, 28 Jan 2002 10:30:42 EST412_US-ASCII In a message dated 1/28/02 6:17:00 AM Pacific Standard Time, stopak@orionsci.com writes:



> You seem to imply that nobody is trying to do something positive? > >

Nu?????? I was talking about US here in this little group that cares so much....SInce there is strength in numbers...I was just hoping maybe there WAS something we could do- i.e. support Pearl's idea, or adopt a town...s 14801 39 24_doing something positive11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Mon, 28 Jan 2002 10:36:48 -0500436_us-ascii LiberHawke@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 1/28/02 6:17:00 AM Pacific Standard Time, stopak@orionsci.com writes: > >> You seem to imply that nobody is trying to do something positive? > > > Nu?????? I was talking about US here in this little group that cares so much....SInce there is strength in numbers...I was just hoping maybe there WAS something we could do- i.e. support Pearl's idea, or adopt a town...s [...] 14841 112 46_Re: I just got a virus - subject family photos12_Karen Fisher23_pkfisher19@peoplepc.com31_Mon, 28 Jan 2002 10:48:48 -0500361_windows-1255 Dave, please send me an e-mail, or your address, I had to re-? my computer and lost all on my outlook express, including your friends from Chicago, and New York.

Thanks, Karen ----- Original Message ----- From: CarmiDave To: habonet@shamash.org Sent: Monday, January 28, 2002 9:00 AM Subject: I just got a virus - subject family photos [...] 14954 28 28_Re: doing something positive0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Mon, 28 Jan 2002 10:51:35 EST543_US-ASCII We need to make sure that we have active Israeli participation in this. We don't want to be seen as starry eyed dupes from America, or self hating Jews. It sounds like I'm more concerned about the appearance of the act than the physical act itself. I'm not. A positive thing stands for itself in the world. It is not bound or limited by its reason. But there are certain to be those who will characterize and interpret our motives, and I think we should think a bit about how the enemies of peace will attempt to us our efforts, [...] 14983 215 9_kindness?16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Mon, 28 Jan 2002 11:03:11 -0500613_us-ascii In Habonet 2131, Dennis Lerner writes that

> THere definately seems to be room (plenty of room) for a kindness initiative. > He also goes on to observe that despite

> Arabs working in shit jobs > for little pay in Israel > he hopes for

> a broad based peoples > initiative from both sides... > It seems to me, rather, that the time has come for a complete and total but benign separation of Israelis from Palestinians. This probably means, eventually, the almost complete withdrawal from most of the settlements established since 1967 (obviously, some border rectifications are [...] 15199 63 9_for Karen9_CarmiDave20_carmdave@urim.org.il31_Mon, 28 Jan 2002 18:29:30 +0200394_windows-1255 Hiya. Our email is carmdave@urim.org.il . We're doing ok here. Situation is very tense lately - more so than regular, but, here in the kibbutz we're far away from the "action", thank God.

How are you and the kids? Our three younger ones went thru flu/strep throats recently, one at a time. Noam had fever for 10 days, poor thing, but all are better and back to school. [...] 15263 66 15_the playgrounds7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Mon, 28 Jan 2002 18:54:01 +0200569_windows-1255 chaverim,

Several people have written me personally to convey their support, moral and financial, for the proposed playgrounds/parks for beduin and druze villages in the North. As I wrote to one person, I am very moved, but not surprised by the response. Afterall, this is Habonim chevra. I shall keep you all apprised of progress, but do not expect answers too quickly. I do not know how long it will take to get all the ends knotted together. I just know that I am committed to seeing this through, and I have had it in mind for a few months [...] 15330 37 23_RE: HABONET digest 213227_Maxene and Frank Perlmutter24_habesor@netvision.net.il31_Tue, 29 Jan 2002 19:01:46 +0200422_us-ascii I take issue with the following written by Noam:

"As I've said before, if there were more recognition that there is some justice to the claims of the more moderate Palestinians, and some hope that they could achieve a dignified resolution of the conflict and satisfy most of their their aims, I think we would see fewer people ready to perpetrate atrocities such as yesterday's bombing in Jerusalem." [...] 15368 26 23_Re: HABONET digest 21320_18_Brianscoop@aol.com29_Tue, 29 Jan 2002 12:10:55 EST470_US-ASCII The conflict has been propelled from its beginnings by the inability of Arab nationalism to recognize the legitimacy of any other nation's legitimate rights to an independent national existence

Which Israeli government recognized the Palestinian right to independent national existence? No matter how uncomfortable, every conflict has TWO sides. I always ask myself, if I lived under the occupation for all these years, what would I be doing today? [...] 15395 73 23_Re: HABONET digest 21320_18_Brianscoop@aol.com29_Tue, 29 Jan 2002 12:19:53 EST389_US-ASCII Sorry - AOL has a habit of messing up email. The first paragraph below, I quoted from Efraim's previous message, and my comments follow. --brian

> The conflict has been propelled > from its beginnings by the inability of Arab nationalism to recognize the > legitimacy of any other nation's legitimate rights to an independent > national existence > [...] 15469 30 23_Re: HABONET digest 21320_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com29_Tue, 29 Jan 2002 15:42:38 EST217_US-ASCII If the Palestinians, at any time in the past 35 years, or even today, would have attempted a peaceful, civil-disobedience they would have their national homeland and wouldn't have to live with the occupation. 15500 66 23_Re: HABONET digest 21320_18_Brianscoop@aol.com29_Tue, 29 Jan 2002 16:11:44 EST503_US-ASCII Richard writes:

> If the Palestinians, at any time in the past 35 years, > or even today, would have attempted a peaceful, > civil-disobedience they would have their national > homeland and wouldn't have to live with the occupation.

On what basis do you make this claim, Rich? What kinds of peaceful, civil disobedience acts do you think would have been effective? Do you think these would have been more convincing than all the years of stone-throwing, intifada, and so on? [...] 15567 50 23_Re: HABONET digest 21320_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com29_Tue, 29 Jan 2002 16:44:43 EST628_US-ASCII In a message dated 1/29/02 4:12:36 PM Eastern Standard Time, Brianscoop@aol.com writes:



> On what basis do you make this claim, Rich? What kinds of peaceful, civil > disobedience acts do you think would have been effective?

I base this on the history of such efforts. When civil-disobedience is used against a democratic government it works. Who would have thought that Britain would have given up India, the "Jewel of the Empire," or that Jim Crow would fall by the way side as a result of peaceful protests. In both cases, governments concerned with both internal opinion and world opinion [...] 15618 657 21_Gush Shalom Billboard14_David Friedman18_david@friedart.com31_Tue, 29 Jan 2002 13:54:57 -0800471_US-ASCII on 1/29/02 12:42 PM, Richardrdsmith@aol.com at Richardrdsmith@aol.com wrote:

If the Palestinians, at any time in the past 35 years, or even today, would have attempted a peaceful, civil-disobedience they would have their national homeland and wouldn't have to live with the occupation.

Shalom, I am passing on this bulletin that I received from a friend in Europe by email. I especially found the ad from the 56 Israeli officers of interest.: [...] 16276 34 23_Re: HABONET digest 21320_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Tue, 29 Jan 2002 17:15:01 EST616_US-ASCII

In a message dated 1/30/02 5:12:54 AM, Brianscoop@aol.com writes:

<< Do you think that this reality had any influence of the sense of hopelessness among the Arabs? >>

I think that fact that thier own people- those of Jordan and Egypt, and other Arab countries- who kept these people in these conditions without taking any responsibility for them helped to keep them in their state of hopelessness... Displaced Jews who came from Arab lands, though having it "rough" somehow found ways to go beyond their own hopelessness- with other Jewish help - to find a way to rise above that [...] 16311 80 42_taking responibility for one's own actions11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Tue, 29 Jan 2002 18:12:25 -0500465_us-ascii LiberHawke@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 1/30/02 5:12:54 AM, Brianscoop@aol.com writes: > > << Do you think that this reality had any influence > of the sense of hopelessness among the Arabs? > >> > > I think that fact that thier own people- those of Jordan and Egypt, and other > Arab countries- who kept these people in these conditions without taking any > responsibility for them helped to keep them in their state of hopelessness... [...] 16392 54 46_Re: taking responibility for one's own actions0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Tue, 29 Jan 2002 22:58:11 EST528_US-ASCII stopak@orionsci.com writes: > > Excellent tactic. Refer to a stupid argument which > has nothing to do with the topic at hand. "US out > of North America - Nobody for President!" > > Noam- I am a little "shocked" at how much we basically agree with each other-- This wasn't a "tactic"- only a point to show that there has to come a time when someone says ENOUGH- and where do we go from here- ...Where is that person?... I am saying that the whining on the side of the Palestinians has to stop and there has to be [...] 16447 76 46_Re: taking responibility for one's own actions0_18_Brianscoop@aol.com29_Tue, 29 Jan 2002 23:47:27 EST586_US-ASCII Sue writes:

> ... I do believe in my heart (because I HAVE to) that "Israel" is > ready willing and able if that opportunity ever arises ...

It's fine to say that Israel is ready and willing, but what does that really mean? We all know that Barak made very real, very serious, groundbreaking offers at Camp David, which were rejected. But - on the ground itself, all the while he was Prime Minister he continued the policy of expanding the settlements, for example. This was not the case under Rabin. Government investment in the territories was halted soon [...] 16524 30 46_Re: taking responibility for one's own actions12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Wed, 30 Jan 2002 09:02:21 +0200600_us-ascii Shalom Brian, You wrote: There's no question that it would be right and good and helpful if the Palestinians would take responsibility for their situation. But, this should not prevent us from seeking what's right and good objectively, and from seeing the truth.

So used am I to seeing your name on Habonet as a canned signature at the bottom of a boilerplate reminder of how to use the list, that I was taken by surprise by your substantive participation. You should do it more often. Your remarks were cogent, not aggressive and generous.From where I stand (sometimes on Jaffa [...] 16555 58 23_RE: HABONET digest 213327_Maxene and Frank Perlmutter24_habesor@netvision.net.il31_Wed, 30 Jan 2002 15:15:47 +0200685_us-ascii



Brian wrote:

"Which Israeli government recognized the Palestinian right to independent national existence?"

Well, let's see. The national leadership recognized the Palestinian right to a national existence when it agreed to accept the UN partition plan. After the 1948 war neither Jordan nor Egypt could quite find a way to recognize the Palestinian right to a national existence. This even though they controlled substantial portions of the Palestine mandate. In 1967, Israel did not recognize any Palestinian right to a national existence but rather saw peace through the return of territory to Syria, Jordan and Egypt. In this Israel saw [...] 16614 59 46_Re: taking responibility for one's own actions0_18_Brianscoop@aol.com29_Wed, 30 Jan 2002 08:20:34 EST555_US-ASCII Amnon Shalom,

you wrote: > ...I was taken by surprise by your substantive participation. > You should do it more often. Your remarks were cogent, ...

Thank you for your kind words. I don't often have much to add, while I learn huge amounts.

I can't recite lists of facts and dates, nor who did what and when. I do know that we must be able to believe in ourselves and in our own actions, irrespective of everything else. I am deeply troubled by the trauma of the Left ever since "the end of Oslo" at Camp David. We must [...] 16674 1305 64_Bernard Lewis Asks 'What Went Wrong?' Between Islam and the West16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Wed, 30 Jan 2002 08:21:26 -0500 17980 41 46_Re: taking responibility for one's own actions11_Noam Stopak19_stopak@orionsci.com31_Wed, 30 Jan 2002 08:29:25 -0500480_us-ascii LiberHawke@aol.com wrote:

> Noam- I am a little "shocked" at how much we basically agree with each other--

I think this is only because you haven't been reading what I've been saying to you for the past 5 years or so :-).

If I may say so, it seems you see things in absolutes (I hear many muttering something about pots and kettles :-), and thus read my points as evidence of holding the extreme views that some here accuse me of promoting. ... [...] 18022 94 23_Re: HABONET digest 21330_18_Brianscoop@aol.com29_Wed, 30 Jan 2002 08:32:40 EST601_US-ASCII The key difference being, we have a state, irrespective of their acceptance. They are dependent on and have been struggling for our acceptance for close to thirty years.

Yes, had they taken up civil disobedience and had a "peace now" and so on.. things might have been different. But for me the far more important question is, What could I/we do (or have done) that could make things different. Had Golda not denounced the nationhood of the Palestinians for example ... had Israel not built a state based on their cheap labor, for example, had Israel and America instead invested [...] 18117 22 23_Re: HABONET digest 21330_17_Shulansid@aol.com29_Wed, 30 Jan 2002 11:54:14 EST526_US-ASCII Hi Jessica?

I want to send money to Gush Shalom but I believe the emailk address they give to let them know money is forthcoming is not a correct address, please help

Shula Troy

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 18140 160 15_answer to Brian7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Wed, 30 Jan 2002 19:34:50 +0200485_iso-8859-1 Brian, just a 'tikun' to what you wrote: 1. Our problem is that the roads we build are ALSO for Arabs, and, in fact, if you ride on some of the more problematic roads, you will not see any Jewish traffic at all -- the fear of being shot is too great! THe last time I drove on the Modein road (for lack of choice at that time), I was the only Jewish driver on the road. I was petrified, and as a result drove like a madman so that I could get off that road as fast as I [...] 18301 51 19_RE: answer to Brian11_Batel Libes25_batel_libes@earthlink.net31_Wed, 30 Jan 2002 13:15:30 -0800636_iso-8859-1 Hi, Pear wrote:

<2. Re the "inequality of services" for Jews and Arabs. In any society the citizens pay taxes and those taxes are used for improving infrastructure, building public buildings, laying sewage and water pipes, building parks. If you do not pay taxes on your income or municipality taxes for services given you (sidewalks, street cleaning, maintenance of public parks and biways, electric lighting along streets, garbage collection) then you do not get those services. There are Arab towns and villages where upwards of 95% of the households do NOT pay municipal taxes. These are figures that you can [...] 18353 19 27_Two Sides to Every Conflict15_Nechemia Meyers32_rrmeyers@wisemail.weizmann.ac.il31_Wed, 30 Jan 2002 23:23:33 +0200491_US-ASCII Brian, When you say that there are two sides to every conflict, does that apply to the West's confrontation with Bin Laden and his merry men? Nechemia Meyers

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org ----------------------- 18373 50 31_Re: Two Sides to Every Conflict0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com29_Wed, 30 Jan 2002 18:32:52 EST578_US-ASCII In a message dated 1/30/02 4:25:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, rrmeyers@wisemail.weizmann.ac.il writes:



> Brian, > When you say that there are two sides to every conflict, does that > apply to the West's confrontation with Bin Laden and his merry men? > Nechemia Meyers >

I wouldn't think of answering for Brian, but I have no trouble saying that of course there are two sides to this as well. While I have no trouble as an American supporting W's war, and in fact do so gladly, I hate his use of the word "evil" to describe our enemy. I don't [...] 18424 53 43_Our partners in life in this land - Haaretz11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org31_Wed, 30 Jan 2002 19:52:03 -0600450_us-ascii Our partners in life in this land

By Mohammed Dahlan







I know, from the outset, that both the Palestinian and the Israeli publics are sick and tired of declarations and interviews; they are no longer interested in analyses and commentaries on the terrible reality in which they are living. Both publics are searching for lost hope among the death and destruction left behind by the cycle of revenge. [...] 18478 66 31_Re: Two Sides to Every Conflict0_18_Brianscoop@aol.com29_Wed, 30 Jan 2002 21:13:39 EST529_US-ASCII I could not have answered better.

Thanks.



> > >> Brian, >> When you say that there are two sides to every conflict, does that >> apply to the West's confrontation with Bin Laden and his merry men? >> Nechemia Meyers >> > > I wouldn't think of answering for Brian, but I have no trouble saying that > of course there are two sides to this as well. While I have no trouble as > an American supporting W's war, and in fact do so gladly, I hate his use of > the word "evil" to describe our enemy. [...] 18545 26 23_conscientious objectors11_Lon Ephraim14_cbma@erols.com31_Wed, 30 Jan 2002 21:40:09 -0800506_us-ascii On the news this morning, I heard something about a group of miluimnikim refusing to continue to protect the Golan. I wasn't paying enough attention, but it seems that they said that aside from not wanting to risk their lives for a cause in which they don't believe, they claimed that ill treatment of Palestinians was mandated - part of their training and that no one would believe what they are asked to do. The reporter went on to say that the government didn't know what to do with them. [...] 18572 36 27_Re: conscientious objectors0_15_Marshlf@aol.com29_Wed, 30 Jan 2002 22:42:23 EST237_US-ASCII shelly-- the Post ran a story about this. here's the link. Click here: Israeli Reservists Refuse Territories Duty (washingtonpost.com)

lisa 18609 46 31_Re: Two Sides to Every Conflict0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Thu, 31 Jan 2002 00:33:28 EST312_US-ASCII In a message dated 1/30/02 6:30:35 PM Pacific Standard Time, Brianscoop@aol.com writes:



> > >> I don't like the simplistic rhetoric that turns a war for national >> defense into a holy war of good versus evil. > > > But wait- isn't that exactly what the Islamic extremists are doing???sue 18656 72 23_RE: HABONET digest 213427_Maxene and Frank Perlmutter24_habesor@netvision.net.il31_Thu, 31 Jan 2002 08:18:47 +0200558_US-ASCII Brian,

I don't think that we differ very much on what we consider to be right and wrong. I read the Friedman piece and I found it easy to agree with every word. But I'm not talking about right and wrong. I'm talking about what is needed to end this conflict. What I am arguing is that until the Palestinians recognize the legitimacy (not the justice or the righteousness) of Jewish nationalism, there is no hope for peace between the two peoples. I am also arguing that this has been a (not the) stumbling block to peace between our two [...] 18729 45 4_evil16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Thu, 31 Jan 2002 01:47:23 -0500318_us-ascii In Habonet 2134, Richard Smith wrote

> I don't like the > simplistic rhetoric that turns a war for national defense into a holy war of good versus evil. > No, Richard, it's not good against evil. It's a religious war that essentialist Islam has declared against western civilization. See Bernard Lewis. 18775 42 31_Re: Two Sides to Every Conflict0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com29_Thu, 31 Jan 2002 04:59:56 EST283_US-ASCII In a message dated 1/31/02 12:34:18 AM Eastern Standard Time, LiberHawke@aol.com writes:



> But wait- isn't that exactly what the Islamic extremists are doing???sue >

Yes, that is exactly what they are doing. Do you suggest that we follow their example. 18818 35 27_Re: conscientious objectors4_sima19_simagr@telhai.ac.il31_Thu, 31 Jan 2002 18:13:07 +0200574_ISO-8859-1 I think you have your geography mixed up. There are no Palestinians in the Golan, nor is service in the Golan in anyway risky or dangerous. What you are referring to relates to the territories. Lehavdeel! -Sima

> On the news this morning, I heard something about a group of miluimnikim > refusing to continue to protect the Golan. I wasn't paying enough > attention, but it seems that they said that aside from not wanting to > risk their lives for a cause in which they don't believe, they claimed > that ill treatment of Palestinians was mandated - [...] 18854 78 10_Complexity0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Thu, 31 Jan 2002 10:11:35 EST592_US-ASCII For reasons I don't understand, I have been scanning my Habonet mail for the last 2 days rather than reading it carefully as I usually do. Maybe its the volume or the length of messages I don't know, but I apologize, because each of you are certainly worthy of a careful reading (not to mention intense hugs). Anyway, from superficial readings come superficial reactions. We seem like an anthill trying to move a mountain whole, or a bunch of PCs trying to individually solve some vast physics problem. We search collectively but individually for the single answer to the whole [...] 18933 23 31_Re: Two Sides to Every Conflict0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Thu, 31 Jan 2002 10:44:58 EST546_US-ASCII Being "copycats" isn't the point I was trying to make- Basically- how do you deal with people who want you dead and gone at all costs- including their own lives - because they consider you to be evil and- as Frankie "Habesor " Perlmutter said- you have no right to your own self-determination because you don't agree or live the kind of life they consider to be holy....My gut feeling is- the bottom line- there is no dealing with this kind of fundamentalism- It comes down to a me-or-you bottom line- and that is what is sad...sue [...] 18957 48 30_Jewish Education Job Available13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Thu, 31 Jan 2002 10:57:56 -0500615_us-ascii Dear Chevreh,

My DC area shul is conducting a national search for an Educational Director. If you are interested or know someone who might be interested, I strongly encourage you to apply.

If you want more detail, email me.

B'shalom, Judy Gelman



EDUCATION DIRECTOR Uniquely progressive, growing Reconstructionist congregation seeks full-time director for our 240 student Torah School beginning in June, 2002. Help us with innovative ideas to renew our curriculum and our methods of educating our students, while preserving the best elements of supplementary Jewish [...] 19006 41 31_Re: Two Sides to Every Conflict0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com29_Thu, 31 Jan 2002 15:59:28 EST315_US-ASCII In a message dated 1/31/02 10:45:56 AM Eastern Standard Time, LiberHawke@aol.com writes:



> Being "copycats" isn't the point I was trying to make- Basically- how do you > deal with people who want you dead and gone at all costs

As I said, I have no problem dealing with them as we are.