1 SHAMASH.ORG /usr/www/wwwhc/listserv/archives/habonet October 2001 2 28 19_Re: from Carl Sagan0_12_SHX2@aol.com28_Mon, 1 Oct 2001 00:14:56 EDT364_US-ASCII

In a message dated 9/30/01 12:24:18 PM, Richardrdsmith@aol.com writes:

<< While pondering Carl Sagan's observations on the compassion humans should have to one another we should remember that his insights were not only the result of years of astronomical research and study but also the daily use of marijuana. >>

Dear Richard, [...] 31 46 19_Re: from Carl Sagan0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com28_Mon, 1 Oct 2001 00:39:42 EDT293_US-ASCII You wrote:

Dear Richard,

Do you have a judgment, positive or negative, in that?

Steve

Yes, I do. I have little doubt that the use of this psychotropic drug facilitated his ability to "think outside the lines." I believe he even credited marijuana for this. 78 85 31_warningDear Friends and Family:10_david baum23_rdbaum@netvision.net.il30_Mon, 1 Oct 2001 10:03:24 +0200353_windows-1255

Dear Friends and Family:

DO NOT OPEN ANY ATTACHMENTS FROM DAVID BAUM. We are sorry to have to tell you that we have had virus problems. Our computer has now been cleaned out and we hope that the problem is solved.

Apologies!!!

Regards David Baum













David Baum 164 77 13_Kaddish, 200112_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Mon, 01 Oct 2001 16:08:02 +0200376_iso-8859-1 Haverim/ot The traditional inscription on tombstones is *may his/her soul be bound up in the sheaf of life along with all Israel.* Oren was a radiant pine in our grove. __ Amnon Below is his kaddish for 2001



Among the Pine Trees

Among the pine trees the voice of a dove as thin feet run over cones, the countryside listens with joy until [...] 242 55 13_another Auden0_12_SHX2@aol.com28_Mon, 1 Oct 2001 12:04:06 EDT517_US-ASCII Here's another Auden come to my attention. I don't know when Auden wrote this poem (it was published in 1960), and the critics generally have a low opinion of it. Perhaps now they will reconsider. (Who cares anyway?)

Steve Hancoff

* * *

There Will Be No Peace

Though mild clear weather Smile again on the shire of your esteem And its colours come back, the storm has changed you: You will not forget, ever, The darkness blotting out hope, the gale Prophesying your downfall. [...] 298 135 19_Re: from Carl Sagan13_Shloime Perel21_itsmeshloime@yahoo.ca36_Mon, 1 Oct 2001 18:07:10 -0400 (EDT)569_us-ascii Happy Shavuot!

I think Carl Sagan's perspective, here, is wonderful. What's the difference whether he drank coffee or wine or took in some grass or nothing at all when he wrote this. I don't see the point. Maybe his cat was high on catnip.

Happy eating, drinking in the sukkah,

Sol Perel --- SHX2@aol.com wrote: > Another perspective, submitted by Steve Hancoff > > REFLECTIONS ON A MOTE OF DUST > > As the Voyager 1 spacecraft headed out of the Solar > System in > 1990, it looked back and snapped a "family portrait" > of the Sun > [...] 434 36 31_Yes, they stole the antibiotics14_The Bernhardts24_miriam_b@neve-ilan.co.il31_Tue, 02 Oct 2001 22:41:52 +0200542_us-ascii For the last 3 weeks, we have spent a lot of time with the TV on at either CNN or BBC. Since this past week was the 1st anniversary of the beginning of the "Intifada El Aksa", there have been many references to it, and quite often, the commentator refers to the famous (stupid?) walk of Ariel Sharon's on the Temple Mount as though it had caused the clashes at that point. The story below is one of many which suggests that preparations were being made for an 'Intifada", and the walk provided the excuse. (This is not a rumor, [...] 471 128 11_Monthly FAQ12_Jennifer Kay19_kay@elvis.rowan.edu31_Wed, 03 Oct 2001 02:32:03 -0400421_- Actually-from:BCooper@descartes.com

Hi Chevre,

Here is a reminder of the "essential" commands that you can use to configure your subscription to Habonet. I will post this monthly from now on. Please note -- The address for commands is: listproc@shamash.org whereas the address for posts to the list is: habonet@shamash.org If you need any help with any of it, send me an email: BCooper@descartes.com [...] 600 58 35_Re: Yes, they stole the antibiotics7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il30_Wed, 3 Oct 2001 11:12:03 +0200562_iso-8859-1 My daughter's yishuv was one of the settlements where the clinic was broken into (it is located dead center in the village and it is hard to u nderstand how the thieves got in there without being seen) and all the antibiotics were stolen. But, we do not need that as the proof when there were so many other signs of what was going to happen, once all the signs were added up in retrospect. One must still remember that the head of Palestinian security services informed the Israeli government that Sharon's visit to the Temple Mount would not be [...] 659 29 15_Written in 193916_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Wed, 03 Oct 2001 09:55:07 -0400632_us-ascii

Defenceless under the night Our world in stupor lies; Yet, dotted everywhere, Ironic points of light Flash out wherever the Just Exchange their messages: May I, composed like them Of Eros and of dust, Beleaguered by the same Negation and despair, Show an affirming flame.

W.H. Auden

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 689 199 56_First Universal Exhibition of Sacred Culture and Defense14_Paul Fingerman29_paul.fingerman@mindspring.com31_Wed, 03 Oct 2001 07:11:05 -0700350_iso-8859-1 You don't have to go to Afghanistan. I haven't seen anyone reference this piece from the Wall Street Journal last week -- I found it to be incredibly scary.

Paul

September 27, 2001 Page One Feature Fruits of Terrorism Are Stock In Trade at Tehran Exhibition

By HUGH POPE Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL [...] 889 39 23_Re: BROWSE THE ARCHIVES0_15_NEVETS2@aol.com28_Thu, 4 Oct 2001 01:01:12 EDT573_US-ASCII

In a message dated 10/4/01 12:24:20 AM, Jennifer Kay writes for the elusive Habonet listowner Brian Cooper:

<< BROWSE THE ARCHIVES =================== Monthly archives are available via:

http://www.shamash.org/listarchives/habonet/ >>

Yup. Every Email that anyone has ever sent is in the Habonet archives at shamash.org. Honest!

Your child doing research for a paper and you could swear that Amnon, Elihu, Sam or Marty had written something noteworthy on the subject a while back? Send them to search the Habonet archives. [...] 929 192 28_Fw: Forbes sees it as it is!7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il30_Fri, 5 Oct 2001 09:10:19 +0200306_ISO-8859-1 A f riend sent this to me. Does Forbes have any far-going influence in STates? ( I am unfamiliar with the mag, though I have heard of it and never read it ). Was there any reaction to this article? Do Americans understand or accept such an argument? shabat shalom u'mo'edim l'simcha, pearl [...] 1122 31 15_Joining Habonet13_Shloime Perel21_itsmeshloime@yahoo.ca36_Fri, 5 Oct 2001 19:21:38 -0400 (EDT)316_us-ascii Shabbat Shalom!

Is it necessary for someone to have been in Habonim to get on Habonet? The reason I am asking this is that a friend who works full time for the Labor Zionists in Canada hasn't been able to get on internet. I'm just wondering how things work.

Gut Shabbes!

Sol Perel [...] 1154 357 49_=?iso-8859-1?B?5PLh+OQ6IEJhbm5lcnMgYW5kIEZsYWdz?=8_ericmoli25_ericmoli@netvision.net.il30_Sat, 6 Oct 2001 23:42:56 +0200591_iso-8859-1

----- Original Message ----- From: Pnina Some To: Julie Maury Tretakoff ; Lillian Liss ; Schwager Sema ; Mollie Eric Marx ; Barbara Norm Some ; Roni Some ; Roie Some ; Dani Some Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2001 12:15 AM Subject: Fw: Banners and Flags





----- Original Message ----- From: Joseph S. Hersh To: Merryl Weber ; Jan Symon ; Pnina Some ; Richard Singer ; Lee Singer ; STANLEY SHEINBAUM ; Batsheva Schwarzberg ; Marvin Schwartz ; Assi Sagiv ; Lior Reshef ; Staci Ohayon ; Raphael Ohayon ; Joseph Meshi ; Sharon Markman ; Albert Litovsky ; [...] 1512 251 41_=?iso-8859-1?B?5PLh+OQ6IFBlYWNlbmlrcw==?=8_ericmoli25_ericmoli@netvision.net.il30_Sat, 6 Oct 2001 23:43:24 +0200478_iso-8859-1

----- Original Message ----- From: Pnina Some To: Mollie Eric Marx ; Lillian Liss ; Connie Campbell Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2001 12:20 AM Subject: Fw: Peaceniks



My daughter is, or was, a peacenik. ----- Original Message ----- From: Roni To: Schwager ; Roie Some ; Rafi Some ; Pnina Some ; Nathan Kazarian ; Moti Gross ; Hannah ; Daniel Some ; Charlie Kalech ; Aviv Zafrir Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2001 3:05 AM Subject: Fw: Peaceniks [...] 1764 84 43_=?windows-1255?B?5PLh+OQ6IHdhbGwgaHVtb3I=?=8_ericmoli25_ericmoli@netvision.net.il30_Sat, 6 Oct 2001 23:46:43 +0200840_windows-1255

----- Original Message ----- From: Pnina Some To: Lillian Liss ; Connie Campbell ; Helen & Lionel Koven ; Mollie Eric Marx ; Malca Hubner Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2001 12:11 AM Subject: Fw: wall humor



> > ----- Original Message ----- > From: dena satinoff > To: ralph troper ; gabe blum > ; yoninamatz lamdan ; > Philip Schwartzberg ; joel and rita pelish > ; pnina`` some ; yossi and mina > mizrachi > Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2001 7:52 PM > Subject: Fw: wall humor > > > > > > ----- [...] 1849 518 63_=?windows-1255?B?5PLh+OQ6IE1pc3MgTGliZXJ0eSdzIE5ldyBBdHRpcmU=?=8_ericmoli25_ericmoli@netvision.net.il30_Sat, 6 Oct 2001 23:51:19 +0200388_windows-1255

----- Original Message ----- From: Pnina Some To: Joe Hersh ; Rafi M Some ; Roie Some ; Roni Some ; Schwager Sema ; Lillian Liss ; Issie Oiring ; Shirley Promnick ; Barbara Norm Some ; Julie Maury Tretakoff ; Bernard &Shirley Herman ; Jocie Cooper ; Mollie Eric Marx ; Malca Hubner Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2001 2:15 PM Subject: Fw: Miss Liberty's New Attire [...] 2368 256 65_=?iso-8859-1?B?5PLh+OQ6IEZXOiBJc3JhZWwgVXBzZXRzIHRoZSBXb3JsZCAh?=8_ericmoli25_ericmoli@netvision.net.il30_Sun, 7 Oct 2001 00:03:24 +0200580_iso-8859-1

----- Original Message ----- From: paul To: Gerald Silber ; Nigel Salomon ; Ros Ordman ; Michelle Lubczanski ; Michael Harris ; Louis Green ; Paul & Simone Garfield ; ericmoli ; June Baker ; Janice Ashby Sent: Saturday, October 06, 2001 12:15 PM Subject: Fw: FW: Israel Upsets the World ! [...] 2625 23 57_Re: =?windows-1255?B?5PLh+OQ6IE1pc3MgTGliZXJ0eSdzIE5ldyBB0_15_DebALev@aol.com28_Sat, 6 Oct 2001 18:18:35 EDT298_US-ASCII This came to me as an attachment.

I do not open attachments. Attachments can, and often do, contain viruses, even if the sender doesn't know it. I'm not saying that this note contains a virus, just that I do not open attachments in case it does and have no idea what you sent. [...] 2649 32 15_Serious Request0_13_SC523@aol.com28_Sat, 6 Oct 2001 23:00:24 EDT422_US-ASCII Dear Molly and others,

Could I politely request that Habonet members not put jokes on the Net unless it is something wonderfully amazingly profound that somehow sums up everything we have been discussing on the Net for 3 weeks, or some such. .. . . . . ?

Please try to imagine what the Net list would be like if 30 people put jokes on the Net every night and then it proliferated even further? [...] 2682 32 58_Re: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=E4=F2=E1=F8=E4?=: Miss Liberty's New A15_R. Heather Drye16_heather@drye.com31_Sat, 06 Oct 2001 23:03:37 -0400552_us-ascii My husband is a software engineer and he says opening attachments are ok. Just don't open any that end in .exe It's the executable attachments that can mess up your computer.

Randi

DebALev@aol.com wrote: > > This came to me as an attachment. > > I do not open attachments. Attachments can, and often do, contain viruses, > even if the sender doesn't know it. I'm not saying that this note contains a > virus, just that I do not open attachments in case it does and have no idea > what you sent. > > If it's important, maybe [...] 2715 52 58_=?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_=E4=F2=E1=F8=E4:_Miss_Liberty's_New_A?=14_Paul Fingerman29_paul.fingerman@mindspring.com31_Sat, 06 Oct 2001 20:18:50 -0700322_us-ascii Actually, that's not correct. Attachments ending in .vbs, for example, or .dot, can also be dangerous. Not so long ago a picture file (I don't remember the file type) was infectious if the user associated that file type with Windows Media Player version 7, which would thereby become the route of infection. [...] 2768 74 7_Viruses14_Paul Fingerman29_paul.fingerman@mindspring.com31_Sat, 06 Oct 2001 20:21:08 -0700494_iso-8859-1 Sorry, I should have added that some products, Microsoft Outlook in particular, can execute certain attachments (especially Active X controls) just by previewing the email in the Preview Window, without ever opening it, much less any attachment. Microsoft has released a patch for this flaw, as well as many others, so if you use Microsoft Outlook or Internet Explorer, I strongly suggest you visit the Microsoft Windows update site, as well as installiing anti-virus software. [...] 2843 49 19_Re: Serious Request13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Sun, 07 Oct 2001 00:42:07 -0400401_us-ascii Dear Molly-

I loved your jokes and am very happy you put them on Habonet. I could use a laugh this week.

If 30 people each put 3 jokes on habonet a day, maybe the people who read Habonet would lighten up a bit.

As far as I know, all computers have "delete" buttons. I suggest that those who don't like any particular kind of posting use the one on his/her computer. [...] 2893 33 19_Re: Serious Request0_15_DebALev@aol.com28_Sun, 7 Oct 2001 01:09:16 EDT465_US-ASCII In a message dated 10/6/01 9:56:18 PM Pacific Daylight Time, gelman@erols.com writes:

> If 30 people each put 3 jokes on habonet a day, maybe the people who read > Habonet would lighten up a bit.

If that happened, I would be off Habonet faster than you could say "alei." I get enough of this stuff elsewhere, and while of course we all can use a little humor, I haven't seen anything here that I haven't already seen a few times before. [...] 2927 251 52_Fwd: 4,000 Jews, 1 Lie -- Tracking an Internet hoax.0_15_DebALev@aol.com28_Sun, 7 Oct 2001 01:19:41 EDT582_UTF-8 In a message dated 10/6/01 10:12:12 PM Pacific Daylight Time, istuber@undelete.org writes:

> Subject: 4,000 Jews, 1 Lie -- Tracking an Internet hoax. > > >From http://go.msn.com/newsletter3817/64774.asp > > Tracking an Internet hoax. > By Bryan Curtis > > Posted Friday, Oct. 5, 2001, at 9:30 a.m. PT > > It is an article of faith in many Muslim countries that Israel was > behind the attack on the World Trade Center, with many citing as > their evidence a "news report" that 4,000 Israelis called in sick > from their jobs at the World Trade Center on Sept. 11. [...] 3179 19 51_Re: 4,000 Jews, 1 Lie -- Tracking an Internet hoax.0_15_DebALev@aol.com28_Sun, 7 Oct 2001 01:29:32 EDT476_US-ASCII I forwarded this note that was sent to me on another list. Inadvertently, I included the list owner's email addy; please ignore it.

DL

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 3199 31 19_Re: Serious Request0_13_SC523@aol.com28_Sun, 7 Oct 2001 04:36:13 EDT410_US-ASCII I'm sorry, but I would be off of Habonet as well, if Judy's 90 jokes a day request were followed up on.

Even if each person who posted a joke were required by the Listserve manager to entitle each joke email JOKE (so that we could recognize it for deletion purposes), it would still take more time than I have to delete 10s of JOKE emails each night, and believe me they WILL proliferate. [...] 3231 182 31_The Patan People of Afghanistan14_Martin Goodman19_mgoodman@012.net.il30_Sun, 7 Oct 2001 11:03:16 +0200496_iso-8859-1 7 October 2001

Currently, America stands on the brink of war with Afghanistan. Who are these Afghani people with whom we are about to fight a war?

Afghanistan is inhabited by ethnic groups descended from Indo-Aryan, Turkish, Mongolian, and Persian ancestry. In addition to these groups whose origin is relatively certain, Afghanistan includes about 8-9 million members of the Patan people, a group of uncertain origin. Another 10-11 million Patans live in Pakistan. [...] 3414 31 19_Re: Serious Request0_15_Marshlf@aol.com28_Sun, 7 Oct 2001 05:42:52 EDT105_US-ASCII my vote is hereby cast to allow jokes and the use of the delete button when necessary.... --lisa 3446 30 51_Re: 4,000 Jews, 1 Lie -- Tracking an Internet hoax.0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com28_Sun, 7 Oct 2001 07:44:02 EDT511_US-ASCII This is no joke. The fact that this rumor is being passed around and believed by millions of Arabs and Muslims ( no one else really ) is a deep indication of something amiss in the Arab world. This is not just the ability to spread lies on the WEB....this is the ultimate insult...on the one hand these kind folks are telling us not to discriminate against them ( I don't think we should ) not to hate them as a group ( right on ) and at the same time they are telling us we had it coming because [...] 3477 34 19_Re: Serious Request15_R. Heather Drye16_heather@drye.com31_Sun, 07 Oct 2001 08:38:49 -0400479_us-ascii I agree 110%.



Judith Gelman wrote: > > Dear Molly- > > I loved your jokes and am very happy you put them on Habonet. I could use a laugh > this week. > > If 30 people each put 3 jokes on habonet a day, maybe the people who read > Habonet would lighten up a bit. > > As far as I know, all computers have "delete" buttons. I suggest that those who > don't like any particular kind of posting use the one on his/her computer. > > Hag Samayach- > Judy > [...] 3512 37 19_Re: Serious Request15_R. Heather Drye16_heather@drye.com31_Sun, 07 Oct 2001 08:42:00 -0400519_us-ascii If you can't share a good jewish joke with your jewish friends who can you share it with?

SC523@aol.com wrote: > > I'm sorry, but I would be off of Habonet as well, if Judy's 90 jokes a day > request were followed up on. > > Even if each person who posted a joke were required by the Listserve manager > to entitle each joke email JOKE (so that we could recognize it for deletion > purposes), it would still take more time than I have to delete 10s of JOKE > emails each night, and believe me they [...] 3550 44 31_Re: "millions of Arab Americas"11_Noam Stopak26_n.stopak@scienceserver.com31_Sun, 07 Oct 2001 09:37:53 -0400342_us-ascii Smfgrappa@aol.com wrote:

> ...I know for a fact millions of Arab Americans have accepted these rumors as > fact.....It boggles my mind

Hi Sam,

I'm just curious how you know this for a fact? The only credible answers boggle my mind.

Jokes are ok by me, but please trim off all the forwarding history. [...] 3595 103 27_Fwd: Fw: Letter to NY Times19_Orit Lowy Chicherio16_oritil@yahoo.com36_Sun, 7 Oct 2001 07:51:35 -0700 (PDT)526_us-ascii The following letter from the New York Times sums up a lot in a nutshell:

> Let's see. I want to make certain that I have > this correct. It is very > confusing. > > If Israel pinpoints and executes terrorist > leaders who have aided in > planning attacks on innocent civilians, that > is bad. > If the United States declares war on > terrorist leaders who aided in planning > attacks in New York and Washington, that is > good. > > If Israel has to compromise some civilian > rights of Arabs in order to [...] 3699 357 49_=?iso-8859-1?B?5PLh+OQ6IEJhbm5lcnMgYW5kIEZsYWdz?=8_ericmoli25_ericmoli@netvision.net.il30_Sun, 7 Oct 2001 18:28:32 +0200591_iso-8859-1

----- Original Message ----- From: Pnina Some To: Julie Maury Tretakoff ; Lillian Liss ; Schwager Sema ; Mollie Eric Marx ; Barbara Norm Some ; Roni Some ; Roie Some ; Dani Some Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2001 12:15 AM Subject: Fw: Banners and Flags





----- Original Message ----- From: Joseph S. Hersh To: Merryl Weber ; Jan Symon ; Pnina Some ; Richard Singer ; Lee Singer ; STANLEY SHEINBAUM ; Batsheva Schwarzberg ; Marvin Schwartz ; Assi Sagiv ; Lior Reshef ; Staci Ohayon ; Raphael Ohayon ; Joseph Meshi ; Sharon Markman ; Albert Litovsky ; [...] 4057 408 61_=?iso-8859-1?B?4fLw6envOiDk8uH45DogQmFubmVycyBhbmQgRmxhZ3M=?=8_ericmoli25_ericmoli@netvision.net.il30_Sun, 7 Oct 2001 18:35:07 +0200557_iso-8859-1

----- Original Message ----- From: ericmoli To: paul garfield ; george sweger ; mayim@aol.com ; gail carp ; fay wittert ; paula felberg ; hazel rose ; habonet@shamash.org ; michael harris Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2001 6:28 PM Subject: העברה: Banners and Flags





----- Original Message ----- From: Pnina Some To: Julie Maury Tretakoff ; Lillian Liss ; Schwager Sema ; Mollie Eric Marx ; Barbara Norm Some ; Roni Some ; Roie Some ; Dani Some Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2001 12:15 AM Subject: Fw: Banners and Flags [...] 4466 67 31_Re: "millions of Arab Americas"0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com28_Sun, 7 Oct 2001 12:36:12 EDT631_US-ASCII In a message dated 10/7/01 9:41:34 AM Eastern Daylight Time, n.stopak@scienceserver.com writes:

<< Hi Sam,

I'm just curious how you know this for a fact? The only credible answers boggle my mind. >>

Here's how --- I read an interview with an American women from Dearborn married to a Palistinean. She lives in the community and she says that she everyone she knows. Everyone...accepts this story as fact...additionally working in Cleveland, I have followed the headlines about the Palistinean Imam who had been a community leader. He is in addition to being a leader in the Moslem community is a [...] 4534 129 38_]Afghani Pashtuns: descended from Jews7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il30_Sun, 7 Oct 2001 21:13:06 +0200459_iso-8859-1 as a follow up to the letter by Marty, following is a letter I wrote a couple weeks ago to the Kulanu list which has some additional info on the Pathanim ( Pushtanim). The royal family of Afghanistan has a tradition that they are descended from the tribe of Benyamin. The Pathanim intermarry between themselves, so theoretically they are ethnically and halachically still Jews, even though they are religiously Moslem. mo'edim l'simcha, pearl [...] 4664 163 35_Re: The Patan People of Afghanistan21_Tsippi (Frances) Rudy19_tsippi@mediaone.net31_Sun, 07 Oct 2001 13:55:21 -0700653_us-ascii Marty,

Are the Patans related to the Pathan nomads?

Tsippi

At 02:03 AM 10/7/01, you wrote: >7 October 2001 > >Currently, America stands on the brink of war with Afghanistan. Who are >these Afghani people with whom we are about to fight a war? > >Afghanistan is inhabited by ethnic groups descended from Indo-Aryan, >Turkish, Mongolian, and Persian ancestry. In addition to these groups >whose origin is relatively certain, Afghanistan includes about 8-9 million >members of the Patan people, a group of uncertain origin. Another 10-11 >million Patans live in Pakistan. > >The Patans preserve a tradition that they are [...] 4828 94 51_Re: 4,000 Jews, 1 Lie -- Tracking an Internet hoax.21_Tsippi (Frances) Rudy19_tsippi@mediaone.net31_Sun, 07 Oct 2001 14:00:44 -0700571_us-ascii Dear Sam,

The fact that it seems to come as a suprise to you that "there is something amiss in the Arab world" strikes me as indicative of either colossal naivete or deliberate self-delusion. Wake up and smell the cordite.

At 04:44 AM 10/7/01, you wrote: >This is no joke. The fact that this rumor is being passed around and believed >by millions of Arabs and Muslims ( no one else really ) is a deep indication >of something amiss in the Arab world. This is not just the ability to spread >lies on the WEB....this is the ultimate insult...on [...] 4923 35 51_=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=E4=F2=E1=F8=E4:=20Peaceniks?=0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com28_Sun, 7 Oct 2001 19:52:06 EDT541_US-ASCII I wasn't going to respond to this "joke" about pacifists, though I was moved to. Then tonight I heard our local version of Rush Limbaugh tell the same joke on the air. As someone who is not a pacifist and agrees that a military response is needed, I do not think poking fun at pacifists is either humorous or educational. I have great admiration for true pacifists who object to violence even for self-defense. If the moron in the joke had gone and hit Ghandi do you think Ghandi would have been persuaded that he had to punch back? 4959 30 51_=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=E4=F2=E1=F8=E4:=20Peaceniks?=0_15_DebALev@aol.com28_Sun, 7 Oct 2001 20:01:06 EDT471_US-ASCII I find myself agreeing with you, Richardsmith. I didn't find it funny at all; I found it somewhat offensive.

The lumping of "pacifists" together as, basically, idiots, is ridiculous and making fun of those who object to killing who, in my experience, often include with their statements that they would use violence in self-defense if necessary and also have some interesting ideas OTHER than "let's just bomb 'em all", is simplistic and inaccurate. [...] 4990 31 35_Re: The Patan People of Afghanistan0_18_DLerner569@aol.com28_Sun, 7 Oct 2001 20:15:22 EDT119_US-ASCII Will these folks help US or them? A little genetic testing could easily resolve the issue, couldn't it? Dennis 5022 151 42_Fw: ]Afghani Pashtuns: descended from Jews7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il30_Mon, 8 Oct 2001 03:38:00 +0200663_iso-8859-1

----- Original Message ----- From: Skolnik To: Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2001 9:13 PM Subject: ]Afghani Pashtuns: descended from Jews



> as a follow up to the letter by Marty, following is a letter I wrote a > couple weeks ago to the Kulanu list which has some additional info on the > Pathanim ( Pushtanim). The royal family of Afghanistan has a tradition that > they are descended from the tribe of Benyamin. The Pathanim intermarry > between themselves, so theoretically they are ethnically and halachically > still Jews, even though they are religiously Moslem. > mo'edim [...] 5174 27 19_Re: Serious Request11_Lon Ephraim14_cbma@erols.com31_Sun, 07 Oct 2001 23:37:48 -0700552_us-ascii

I don't care about jokes one way or another. If I like 'em, fine. If I don't, I stop reading and delete, just like I delete long winded, often self-serving messages and tete a tetes from many of our chevre. But it is not for any one of us to ask that other Habonetters to restrict themselves to writing only things we find "amazingly wonderful". I only participate in Habonet and a joke or article another person may receive from 10 other sources may very well be something I've never seen. And I don't think Judy wants to see 90 [...] 5202 71 22_Re: Punching Peaceniks0_15_NEVETS2@aol.com28_Sun, 7 Oct 2001 23:56:51 EDT451_ISO-8859-1 Chevre, Please.

I don't want fellow Jews doing this to us or our friends or our kids. Enough.

Just as we may not exactly be the solution right now, we are surely not the problem, either. Please feel free to ignore us, for the time being if you must. We'll be useful again building peace bridges, hopefully sooner than later. There ARE Palestinian partners for peace. They just are invisible in this orchestrated madness. [...] 5274 22 22_Re: Punching Peaceniks0_15_DebALev@aol.com28_Mon, 8 Oct 2001 00:09:50 EDT593_US-ASCII Thanks, Steve. Dare I say that this was one of those "jokes" that people say they want to continue seeing on this list? What about that "banners" one that appeared twice ?

One person's "joke" might not be seen as one by others.

Grumpily, Debbie

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 5297 24 41_Re: Punching Peaceniks & Wishful Thinking13_aubrey jasper22_aubreyjasper@yahoo.com36_Sun, 7 Oct 2001 21:31:17 -0700 (PDT)583_us-ascii If there ARE any sincere Palestinian Arab partners for peace, they have no power and never did. They never will, unless and until the murderers amongst them are removed from power. Note: this may involve the use of force.

Best,

Aubrey

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 5322 21 63_=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=E4=F2=E1=F8=E4:=20Banners=20and=20Flags?=0_13_SC523@aol.com28_Mon, 8 Oct 2001 02:12:41 EDT312_US-ASCII OK - Now I really want to know why we are all receiving this ridiculous joke again. This is the 13th time I have received this joke and the second time on Habonet in 24 hours, especially AFTER we've been having a discussion about whether jokes are an appropriate use of Habonet or not. What gives? [...] 5344 68 26_Nomads in the Patan People14_Martin Goodman19_mgoodman@012.net.il30_Mon, 8 Oct 2001 08:58:12 +0200338_iso-8859-8-i 8 October 2001

In Habonet Digest 2024, Tsippi asked, "" Are the Patans related to the Pathan nomads? ""

Patan and the Pathan are different spellings of the same name. According to the text, "Tribes of Israel", about two million of the Patan/Pathan people are nomadic. The rest live in villages and cities. [...] 5413 28 12_(no subject)0_16_BERNSARA@aol.com28_Mon, 8 Oct 2001 13:57:34 EDT34_US-ASCII SET Habonet mail postpone 5442 130 35_Fwd: Fw: Fwd: NOW HERE'S A SOLUTION0_16_BERNSARA@aol.com28_Mon, 8 Oct 2001 14:42:48 EDT470_US-ASCII

> How to exact justice for Osama Bin Laden's crimes: > > Killing him will only create a martyr. Holding him prisoner will > inspire his comrades to take hostages to demand his release. > we do neither. > > Rather, let the CIA, Rangers, or Navy Seals covertly capture him, fly > him to an undisclosed hospital, and have surgeons quickly perform a complete > sex change operation on him. > > Then return 'her' to Afghanistan to live under the Taliban. > > 5573 64 20_Letter to the Editor0_15_DebALev@aol.com28_Mon, 8 Oct 2001 16:52:11 EDT352_US-ASCII I just sent off this response to an editorial that appeared today in the South County Journal that I thought might be of interest to y'all. Seems fairly elementary to me (and hopefully to you, too), but the South County Journal is a fairly conservative rag and is of course all caught up in this "Hail, America" stuff which I find scary. [...] 5638 41 24_Re: Letter to the Editor0_16_Aborciah@aol.com28_Mon, 8 Oct 2001 22:02:44 EDT471_US-ASCII I, too, have always had difficulty with the addition of "under God" to the Pledge of Allegiance. No matter what one's religious beliefs, or lack thereof, are, this strikes me as crossing the line of separation of Church and State.

>From another angle, the Jehovah's Witnesses (and possibly other such religions) pledge allegiance only to God. Those who live here may love this country...but they will not fight. What is the definition of patriotism? [...] 5680 35 24_Re: Letter to the Editor0_15_DebALev@aol.com28_Mon, 8 Oct 2001 22:10:38 EDT644_US-ASCII In a message dated 10/8/01 7:04:45 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Aborciah@aol.com writes:

> >From another angle, the Jehovah's Witnesses (and possibly other such > religions) pledge allegiance only to God. Those who live here may love this > > country...but they will not fight. What is the definition of patriotism?



Good question. For some, it's the "love it or leave it" mentality. Interestingly, a court case was brought against a school board in West Virginia about 60 years ago. The school board had required recitation of the pledge, several students who were Jehovah's Witnesses refused to do so and were [...] 5716 39 51_Re: 4,000 Jews, 1 Lie -- Tracking an Internet hoax.0_16_Aborciah@aol.com28_Mon, 8 Oct 2001 22:13:45 EDT565_US-ASCII Unfortunately, it is not only Arab Americans who believe this. A colleague told me that someone in her office stated this as fact and there was discussion about the subject all morning...no one expressing denial or disbelief, but rather questioning why the Jews didn't tell the others! I suggested that she should have clearly told them that it was a lie. I am not sure whether she, as a lone Jew in the office, was reticent about facing the majority...or whether she wasn't sure it was a lie. (She had come to me with the Q33 Winding/Webding story.) [...] 5756 26 51_Re: 4,000 Jews, 1 Lie -- Tracking an Internet hoax.0_15_DebALev@aol.com28_Mon, 8 Oct 2001 22:21:42 EDT331_US-ASCII That reminds me of an experience I had at a previous employer, Anita. (A domestic violence shelter in Pittsburgh.) The shelter manager, an African American activist with whom I had had many enjoyable and interesting conversations, insisted that the Jews owned most of the slave ships that brought her ancestors here. [...] 5783 50 51_Re: 4,000 Jews, 1 Lie -- Tracking an Internet hoax.0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com28_Mon, 8 Oct 2001 22:47:46 EDT567_US-ASCII In a message dated 10/8/01 10:24:42 PM Eastern Daylight Time, DebALev@aol.com writes:



> The shelter manager, an African > American activist ... insisted that the Jews owned most of the slave ships > that > brought her ancestors here. > While it may not have been most of the slave ships, I believe there is a great deal of truth to the statement that many Jews were involved in the slave trade from an investment point of view. (It should also be remembered that the Arabs had a great deal to do with the slave trade not to mention black [...] 5834 23 51_Re: 4,000 Jews, 1 Lie -- Tracking an Internet hoax.10_Ori Siegel17_oris@interlog.com31_Tue, 09 Oct 2001 00:10:05 -0400314_us-ascii At 10:21 PM 2001-10-08 -0400, DebALev@aol.com wrote: >...And when she used that lovely >phrase "we Jewed them down," the same thing happened.

No doubt had you the temerity to tell her that jewing people down was a niggardly thing to do, you would have been fired on the spot, charges pending. [...] 5858 18 51_Re: 4,000 Jews, 1 Lie -- Tracking an Internet hoax.0_15_DebALev@aol.com28_Tue, 9 Oct 2001 00:16:34 EDT372_US-ASCII Ori, no doubt......

ROFLMAO!!!

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 5877 21 37_Does anyone have JJ Goldberg's email?0_15_RONOREN@aol.com28_Tue, 9 Oct 2001 02:35:27 EDT506_US-ASCII Does anyone have JJ Goldberg's email address? I have a question regarding the Habonim book. You can send it to me offlist, of course. Thanks, Ron Orenstein ronoren@aol.com

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 5899 32 52_Re: 4,000 Jews, 1 Lie -- disgraceful racism revealed11_Noam Stopak26_n.stopak@scienceserver.com31_Tue, 09 Oct 2001 08:04:25 -0400321_us-ascii >At 10:21 PM 2001-10-08 -0400, DebALev@aol.com wrote: >>...And when she used that lovely >>phrase "we Jewed them down," the same thing happened. > >No doubt had you the temerity to tell her that jewing people down was a >niggardly thing to do, you would have been fired on the spot, charges pending. > >Ori [...] 5932 24 17_4,000 Jews, et al14_Gregory Taylor25_gttaylor@worldnet.att.net30_Tue, 9 Oct 2001 08:39:14 -0400415_iso-8859-1 Noam Stopak, What part of Ori's response did you find 'truly offensive and racist'? The use of the word 'niggardly' which is a non-offensive word to any one literate and means 'stingy' or the implication that someone could be fired for using it in a racially mixed group? Someone was fired in Maryland for using it and even though his job was re-instated, he had to apologize for being insensitive. [...] 5957 43 21_Re: 4,000 Jews, et al11_Noam Stopak26_n.stopak@scienceserver.com31_Tue, 09 Oct 2001 08:34:42 -0400489_us-ascii



Gregory Taylor wrote:

> Noam Stopak, > What part of Ori's response did you find 'truly offensive and racist'? The > use of the word 'niggardly' which is a non-offensive word to any one > literate and means 'stingy' or the implication that someone could be fired > for using it in a racially mixed group? Someone was fired in Maryland for > using it and even though his job was re-instated, he had to apologize for > being insensitive. > > Cindy Taylor [...] 6001 250 56_Politically Correct Islam (Carl Pearlston) October, 200116_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Tue, 09 Oct 2001 10:15:26 -040067_us-ascii

http://freeman.io.com/m_online/oct01/pearlston.htm 6252 55 52_Re: 4,000 Jews, 1 Lie -- disgraceful racism revealed0_15_DebALev@aol.com28_Tue, 9 Oct 2001 11:56:25 EDT425_US-ASCII In a message dated 10/9/01 5:08:54 AM Pacific Daylight Time, n.stopak@scienceserver.com writes:

> I find Ori's statement truly offensive and racist. I'm shocked that you find > this funny.

Noam, that's because, unfortunately, it's true. I once objected to an agency function being held on a Friday night, and was told (by another in a full staff meeting) of preventing her from being a Christian. [...] 6308 36 41_Re: Does anyone have JJ Goldberg's email?11_Sue Freeman19_sfreeman@cfl.rr.com30_Tue, 9 Oct 2001 12:53:02 -0400474_iso-8859-1 Contact David Twersky at www.njjewishnews.com. David is the editor of "New Jersey Jewish News." JJ Goldberg has written articles, which have appeared in that newspaper; so either David or someone else who works for the newspaper may know JJ's email address (or how to get in touch with him). ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2001 2:35 AM Subject: Does anyone have JJ Goldberg's email? [...] 6345 17 52_Re: 4,000 Jews, 1 Lie -- disgraceful racism revealed0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Tue, 09 Oct 2001 13:26:12 EDT311_ISO-8859-1 jewing is truly offensive, although I often find it on the tip of my tongue as a demeaning bargaining reference. Niggardly of the other hand is a word which my dictionary defines as having to do with stingyness and nothing to do with persons, American or otherwise of African extraction. Dennis [...] 6363 17 10_JJGoldberg14_The Bernhardts24_miriam_b@neve-ilan.co.il31_Tue, 09 Oct 2001 15:39:09 +0200451_us-ascii Isn't JJ the editor of the Forwards these days. If you really can't get his address, write me and I'll ask his aunt.

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 6381 56 52_Re: 4,000 Jews, 1 Lie -- disgraceful racism revealed11_Noam Stopak26_n.stopak@scienceserver.com31_Tue, 09 Oct 2001 13:56:02 -0400536_us-ascii DebALev@aol.com wrote:

> ... > > Noam, not everything is racism. The same thing could have been said if it > came from another staff member (although a white staff member probably > wouldn't have referred to the slave ships her ancestors came over on), and > Ori would still have been right. > > Do you read the news at all? Do you remember a while ago when someone used > the word "niggardly" and was fired for it? Are you aware of what that word > really means, and that it has nothing whatsoever to do with that [...] 6438 65 52_Re: 4,000 Jews, 1 Lie -- disgraceful racism revealed0_15_DebALev@aol.com28_Tue, 9 Oct 2001 14:13:09 EDT605_US-ASCII In a message dated 10/9/01 11:01:52 AM Pacific Daylight Time, n.stopak@scienceserver.com writes:

> As long as we're making educational suggestions, perhaps > you should try a reading comprehension course. I wrote: > > "I live in Maryland and know all about the incident to > which you refer. What I find offensive is the implication > that African Americans and others are so ignorant that > they don't understand the word." > > Since you are "aware that African-Americans all over the country > said the firing was stupid" what is it about Ori's suggestion that > other people would [...] 6504 71 52_Re: 4,000 Jews, 1 Lie -- disgraceful racism revealed11_Noam Stopak26_n.stopak@scienceserver.com31_Tue, 09 Oct 2001 14:28:15 -0400523_us-ascii > Noam, if you wrote that, I'd like to know where you posted it, because I did > not receive it. This is the sum total of what I have received from you about > this (before this note):

> > At 10:21 PM 2001-10-08 -0400, DebALev@aol.com wrote: > >>...And when she used that lovely > >>phrase "we Jewed them down," the same thing happened. > > > >No doubt had you the temerity to tell her that jewing people down was a > >niggardly thing to do, you would have been fired on the spot, charges > pending. > [...] 6576 27 52_Re: 4,000 Jews, 1 Lie -- disgraceful racism revealed0_15_DebALev@aol.com28_Tue, 9 Oct 2001 14:39:52 EDT462_US-ASCII In a message dated 10/9/01 11:31:49 AM Pacific Daylight Time, n.stopak@scienceserver.com writes:

> > Sorry if you feel I've misinterpreted your views, but I think the shoe fits.

Suit yourself. No point in further discussion, obviously.

BTW, you may have included that paragraph in a note that was posted at " 8:38 eastern time this morning," (5:38 AM my time) but it has not arrived in MY mailbox. I checked three times, Noam. [...] 6604 16 52_Re: 4,000 Jews, 1 Lie -- disgraceful racism revealed0_15_DebALev@aol.com28_Tue, 9 Oct 2001 14:47:35 EDT377_US-ASCII Noam, why did you send this a second time?

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 6621 30 18_Re: email problems11_Noam Stopak26_n.stopak@scienceserver.com31_Tue, 09 Oct 2001 15:05:06 -0400583_us-ascii

DebALev@aol.com wrote:

> Noam, why did you send this a second time?

If you wish to discuss your technical problems, perhaps we should take this off-line.

First you insist that I didn't send a message which was clearly received by Shamash. Now you ask why I sent a message multiple times when I can find no evidence that this is the case either in my sent folder or at the archive at Shamash (check out shamash.org/listarchives/habonet/habonet.01.10). It sounds like there is a problem either between you and AOL or between AOL and Shamash. [...] 6652 21 18_Re: email problems0_15_DebALev@aol.com28_Tue, 9 Oct 2001 15:29:11 EDT532_US-ASCII Noam, I have not had any of these problems before on any of the eight list-servs I'm on (including about 1500 subscribers). Interesting, hmmm?

Paul Fingerman, what sayest thou?

Debbie

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 6674 40 18_Re: email problems14_Paul Fingerman29_paul.fingerman@mindspring.com31_Tue, 09 Oct 2001 13:05:37 -0700588_us-ascii First, I decline to be identified as knowledgeable or expert in anything. However, since Debbie and I have known each other for a long time, I'll take a crack.

What's happened to me occasionally is that I've accidentally deleted an email out of my inbox inadvertantly. I use Eudora, and a CNTL-d will delete any highlighted message. However, holding down CNTL-d too long will cause an autorepeat, and delete the next message(s) as well. As I delete much of what comes into my inbox (please -- let no one take offense!), I check my trash folder before emptying it. In [...] 6715 21 52_Re: 4,000 Jews, 1 Lie -- disgraceful racism revealed0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Tue, 09 Oct 2001 16:08:49 EDT359_ISO-8859-1 Under present circumstances - for that matter under any circumstances - it seems unnecessary for us to call each other racist. We all have the ability to discrimate one thing from another. Our feelings and attitudes about others is a matter of our hearts and we should avoid trying to discern it from the casual comments contained in e-mails. [...] 6737 27 18_Re: email problems0_15_DebALev@aol.com28_Tue, 9 Oct 2001 16:10:42 EDT296_US-ASCII Thanks, Paul. I don't know if AOL has that capability; this has never happened to me before. Being the curious and nosy type, I usually read email messages before deleting, and if I inadvertently delete a note, as far as I know I've always been aware of deleting it after the fact. [...] 6765 48 21_Re: 4,000 Jews, et al10_Ori Siegel17_oris@interlog.com31_Tue, 09 Oct 2001 16:12:32 -0400603_us-ascii Noam,

You find what I wrote offensive and racist? How dare you? You go off half-cocked and can't understand why you get flamed?

At 08:34 AM 2001-10-09 -0400, you wrote: >...What I find offensive is the implication >that African Americans and others are so ignorant that >they don't understand the word.

Did you read what you wrote here before posting it? Think about it for a moment, Noam. Now tell us if you will concede that there is even the remotest possibility that a person, hyphenated American or not, who would use the expression "jewed him down" and not know [...] 6814 71 28_email problems and niggardly13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Tue, 09 Oct 2001 16:37:11 -0400504_us-ascii Dear Deb and Noam-

Since it is a hag, I was blissfully away from my computer all day and so I only downloaded my 100+ messages 15 minutes ago. Therefore, I got to read the Noam-Deb exchange in order in its entirety. Noam's message that Deb did not receive came in right in the queue, with the time he states. I state this because I think there needs to be an objective reality check of Noam's honesty. This jibes totally with my subjective experience of Noam as an honorable person. [...] 6886 333 26_With allies like these....5_YIGAL18_ysela@inter.net.il30_Tue, 9 Oct 2001 20:53:52 +0200589_windows-1255 I forward this article from the Boston Globe. While understanding the complicated constraints of the Bush Administration it does vent some of our frustrations....

Rgds

Yigal



> WITH ALLIES LIKE THESE . . . > By Jeff Jacoby > The Boston Globe > > October 7, 2001 > > Of the five countries described below, can you identify the one(s) > excluded from the US-led coalition in the war on terrorism? > > Country A is free and democratic, a steadfast ally of the United > States. Its citizens know what it means to be victimized by terrorism, > and [...] 7220 24 32_Re: email problems and niggardly0_15_DebALev@aol.com28_Tue, 9 Oct 2001 17:04:54 EDT385_US-ASCII Judy, thanks for letting me know that you received Noam's email with that paragraph.

I did not. It could have been a problem on my end, and I will conclude that, since you said that you DID receive his original message with that paragraph about that DC employee. Seems to me that it's a red herring issue regarding the accusation that I am a racist, but so be it. [...] 7245 36 19_Re: E-mail Problems11_Batel Libes19_batel@realmedia.com30_Tue, 9 Oct 2001 14:30:41 -0700455_iso-8859-1 Hi, I received Noam's message and saw his comment. Based on the information provided, I would say that the problem has nothing to do with AOL, especially if you received other messages today in a timely manner. When I train, I refer to these kind of instances as operator errors. They happen, they will continue to happen and they shouldn't be made a big deal of. It's technology and it's not perfect and neither are our fingers' actions. [...] 7282 54 32_Re: email problems and niggardly11_Noam Stopak26_n.stopak@scienceserver.com31_Tue, 09 Oct 2001 18:55:07 -0400433_us-ascii DebALev@aol.com wrote:

> Judy, thanks for letting me know that you received Noam's email with that > paragraph. > > I did not. It could have been a problem on my end, and I will conclude that, > since you said that you DID receive his original message with that paragraph > about that DC employee. Seems to me that it's a red herring issue regarding > the accusation that I am a racist, but so be it. > > Debbie [...] 7337 50 18_Re: email problems29_Richard Steacy & Esther Cohen22_richard.steacy@gte.net30_Tue, 9 Oct 2001 19:37:55 -0400433_iso-8859-1 to the group -

just to let you know that i've had similar experiences. there are some conversations that seem already to be in progress by the time i first see them, suggesting that i'm missing some messages.

i guess it's not as much fun for some people as an energetic, perhaps heated debate, but i think there are often times that it's best to just take the other person's word for it and move along. [...] 7388 107 49_Land of Israel is not essential for Islamic faith20_Gayle, Mark and Ayah16_sarazen@home.com30_Tue, 9 Oct 2001 20:21:19 -0400739_iso-8859-1 This article appeared today in our local paper... The Kitchener-Waterloo Record. It appears at this link:

http://www.therecord.com/opinion/second/opinion_second_01100994623.html

Gayle Charach Waterloo, Ontario



Land of Israel is not essential for Islamic faith

Tuesday October 9, 2001 Paul Ghent

The tragedy of Sep. 11 is underscored by the tragedy of the Western world to fail to recognize the circumstances which led to it. Government officials attempt to reassure a nervous nation that the enemy is Islamic fundamentalists and not Islam. Some people are finding it difficult to distinguish between the two. Islamic terrorists are not upset with the United States on its foreign [...] 7496 51 36_Black Anti-Semitism in the Workplace13_aubrey jasper22_aubreyjasper@yahoo.com36_Tue, 9 Oct 2001 20:12:16 -0700 (PDT)378_us-ascii Debbie (DebALev) mentioned her experience with a black anti-Semitic supervisor. I've encountered a good deal of this in NY State service.

For example: In 1997, in the Bronx, I had a black female supervisor who was a devout Christian. She literally played a Christian radio station, all day, in her office, loud enough for me to hear. She knew I was Jewish. [...] 7548 31 25_Conscience and Patriotism13_aubrey jasper22_aubreyjasper@yahoo.com36_Tue, 9 Oct 2001 20:27:43 -0700 (PDT)603_us-ascii Those who are deemed conscientious objectors are still required to serve in time of war, if drafted- but as medics, for example. Medics suffer high casualty rates because they often brave enemy fire to try to rescue wounded soldiers lying in the field of fire.

Only is someone refuses this mode of service would his motives be suspect. --- Aborciah@aol.com wrote: > > >From another angle, the Jehovah's Witnesses (and > possibly other such > religions) pledge allegiance only to God. Those who > live here may love this > country...but they will not fight. What is the > definition [...] 7580 69 18_RE: email problems11_Batel Libes25_batel_libes@earthlink.net30_Tue, 9 Oct 2001 20:52:36 -0700356_iso-8859-1 It is very often that services such as AOL, Hotmail, Yahoomail, etc. have such a load of e-mail to deliver, that the delivery does not happen in a timely manner. Ultimately, 99% of e-mail will get across, but it may take a few hours to do so. This is not uncommon with delivery service, kind of like delivering mail during holiday periods. [...] 7650 35 18_Re: email problems0_16_Aborciah@aol.com29_Wed, 10 Oct 2001 00:08:55 EDT322_US-ASCII Debbie et al, I did receive the message from Noam that is in question...but to back up the likely truth of your lack of receipt, I did not receive the response you originally made to my comment. I didn't realize there was one until I saw it quoted in a later message from Noam. So, folks, it does happen.... Anita 7686 108 18_RE: email problems11_Batel Libes25_batel_libes@earthlink.net30_Tue, 9 Oct 2001 21:14:36 -0700320_us-ascii I would suggest to all those who are losing messages to contact their mail provider or ISP and see what percentage of "packages" are lost. This requires some technical work, but not beyond the ability of anyone on this list since the steps for optimizing connectivity are spelled out in such instructions. [...] 7795 24 15_Email Addresses11_Sam Bergman22_bergman@mindspring.com31_Wed, 10 Oct 2001 03:34:28 -0400 7820 54 38_More on the Pushtan and work of Kulanu0_13_SC523@aol.com29_Thu, 11 Oct 2001 02:17:11 EDT579_US-ASCII Dear Habonetters,

My husband has been very active in the work of the organization Kulanu for several years. I checked out the info that was posted on Habonet re: the Pushtan and here's what he wrote (best to all on the conclusion of 4 weeks of holidays - Aliya):

Yes, Aliya. This is all from Avichail's book which was translated into English by M. Gross. It can be obtained by sending a contribution to Amishav [My People Return -- the name of Avichail's organization -- Kulanu was formed, in part, to support & expand on this outreach to lost Jewish [...] 7875 22 4_Away12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Thu, 11 Oct 2001 09:53:45 +0200498_us-ascii Haverot/im we'll be away from our computers for about two weeks. Please take care of the world for us till we get back.

love,

Rivka and Amnon



------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 7898 31 22_Re: Your People Finder0_15_NEVETS2@aol.com29_Thu, 11 Oct 2001 04:52:24 EDT450_US-ASCII

Just to remind everyone again, if you need to contact someone with Habonim roots of any color (especially JJ Goldberg!) just use your People Finder site--

http://www.habonimdrorfoundation.org/people

When is the last time that someone designed a magnificent piece of software just for you? Go. Enjoy. Play. Better even than solitaire. It's a true mechaya. [...] 7930 22 13_People Finder15_R. Heather Drye16_heather@drye.com31_Thu, 11 Oct 2001 07:20:26 -0400606_us-ascii I was looking through the memoriam page on people finder and came across a name I was familiar with. Does anyone know what happened to Lori (Harris) Shapiro. We were on the 32nd workshop together. You can email me privately if need be.

Thanks, Randi (Bennett) Drye

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 7953 204 25_Status of women in Israel0_15_DebALev@aol.com29_Thu, 11 Oct 2001 08:24:15 EDT566_US-ASCII THE STATUS OF WOMEN IN ISRAEL

"Ginger Rogers did everything Fred Astaire did, but she did it backwards, and in high heels,." former US ambassador to Switzerland Faith Wittlesey once noted pithily.

"The Israel Women's Network, Israel's foremost feminist organization is striving to assure that the current generation and future generations of women will not need to toe the line twice as hard as men, either literally or figuratively, to reach the same result," explains Ella Gera, executive director of the organization since March 2001. [...] 8158 21 18_Popes and the Jews0_12_SHX2@aol.com29_Thu, 11 Oct 2001 11:30:30 EDT522_US-ASCII Dear H'nets,

Recently, someone sent a post on Popes and the Jews. Would you mind please resubmitting it either to the list or back-channelled to me? Thank you.

Steve Hancoff

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 8180 91 56_The Hunger Site is back -- join the fight to end hunger!0_15_NEVETS2@aol.com29_Thu, 11 Oct 2001 13:11:15 EDT428_US-ASCII

Chevre, Shalom

Please check out the hunger site for an easy mitzvah.

http://www.thehungersite.com/home



Every 3.6 seconds, someone dies of hunger. 75% are children. You can make

a difference. Visit The Hunger Site (http://www.thehungersite.com/home)

every day and, with a single click of the mouse, donate cups of food for the world's hungry -- at no cost to you. [...] 8272 62 77_PALESTINIAN POLICE KILL PRO-BIN LADEN SUPPORTERS IN GAZA Palestinian police k0_15_DebALev@aol.com29_Thu, 11 Oct 2001 15:17:39 EDT709_US-ASCII PALESTINIAN POLICE KILL PRO-BIN LADEN SUPPORTERS IN GAZA Palestinian police killed three Palestinians at a pro-Bin Laden rally in Gaza on Monday, THE JERUSALEM POST reported. In unprecedented restrictions, the Palestinian Authority closed Gaza universities and schools, and has barred foreign reporters from the Gaza Strip.

Eyewitnesses in Gaza said the riots started when demonstrators carrying bin Laden posters tried to break through police barricades to reach the Palestinian parliament building. In front of the Islamic University, a masked gunman opened fire and seriously wounded a policeman, according to Palestinian sources. The police shot back, killing two demonstrators and a [...] 8335 54 30_riot control equipment for Aza7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Thu, 11 Oct 2001 23:01:20 +0200309_windows-1255 re the JP article about the riots in Aza: Israel luckily refused to supply the Authority with the equipment, having learned from our experience of supplying them previously with tens of thousands of guns. Eventually, the weapons were used against us, as would be the riot control equipment. pearl 8390 168 19_Re: Email Addresses7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Fri, 12 Oct 2001 00:40:00 +0200545_iso-8859-1 Sam, Shalom. How do I add names to Habonetorg? I went into the memoriam page and just checked out a few names. I was shocked to see that there really was no info on people who were very important in the lives of this movement and the kibbutzim. For example, Ettie Skidell, who was madricha of the sixth workshop. She has a history in the movement that was not recorded here and she had a profound influence on anyone who knew her . Perhaps, people should be encouraged to write more in depth of people who appear on the memoriam [...] 8559 74 18_Re: email problems0_16_tanah@zianet.com29_Fri, 12 Oct 2001 04:12:35 GMT545_us-ascii Chevre, Apparently others are having problems that may or may not be similar to mine. My server recently decided to install some program that weeds out spam. The fact that I have NEVER received any spam to that server in the 7 years I have been using him, soon after he went into business as a server, aside. I got word that mail from another list from Shamash was returned and the next day from a local friend who keeps a list of us posted on Israel developments (13 of us are using the same wonderful zianet -- wonderful people, [...] 8634 346 45_=?iso-8859-1?B?5PLh+OQ6IChubyBzdWJqZWN0KQ==?=8_ericmoli25_ericmoli@netvision.net.il31_Sat, 13 Oct 2001 12:16:23 +0200419_iso-8859-1

----- Original Message ----- From: Pnina Some To: Malca Hubner ; Mollie Eric Marx ; Issie D Oiring ; Sam Blatt ; Schwager Sema ; Hickie Cheifetz ; Roni Some ; Joe Hersh Sent: Friday, October 12, 2001 5:13 PM Subject: Fw: (no subject)





----- Original Message ----- From: SHIRLEY To: Pnina Some Cc: Pnina Some Sent: Monday, October 08, 2001 5:47 PM Subject: Fw: (no subject) [...] 8981 305 61_=?iso-8859-1?B?4fLw6envOiBTdGF0dXMgb2Ygd29tZW4gaW4gSXNyYWVs?=8_ericmoli25_ericmoli@netvision.net.il31_Sat, 13 Oct 2001 12:42:22 +0200380_iso-8859-1 Dear Debby,

Thank you for sending us this important information, which I'm forwarding to my famil and friends. Keep up the good work.

Shalom, Mollie Marx ----- Original Message ----- From: DebALev@aol.com To: HABONET@shamash.org Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2001 2:24 PM Subject: Status of women in Israel



THE STATUS OF WOMEN IN ISRAEL [...] 9287 342 73_=?iso-8859-1?B?4fLw6envOiDh8vDp6e86IFN0YXR1cyBvZiB3b21lbiBpbiBJc3JhZWw=?=8_ericmoli25_ericmoli@netvision.net.il31_Sat, 13 Oct 2001 12:45:10 +0200511_iso-8859-1

----- Original Message ----- From: ericmoli To: habonet@shamash.org Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2001 12:42 PM Subject: בעניין: Status of women in Israel



Dear Debby,

Thank you for sending us this important information, which I'm forwarding to my famil and friends. Keep up the good work.

Shalom, Mollie Marx ----- Original Message ----- From: DebALev@aol.com To: HABONET@shamash.org Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2001 2:24 PM Subject: Status of women in Israel [...] 9630 32 8_postpone0_16_BERNSARA@aol.com29_Sat, 13 Oct 2001 15:08:43 EDT113_US-ASCII I just sent you a mail postpone message for th SECOND time. Please process now SET Habonet mail postpone 9663 24 29_Re: Status of women in Israel0_18_Rachelbern@aol.com29_Sun, 14 Oct 2001 03:21:14 EDT377_US-ASCII << "Ginger Rogers did everything Fred Astaire did, but she did it backwards, and in high heels,." former US ambassador to Switzerland Faith Wittlesey once noted pithily. >>

Hmmmm... I thought Bette Davis said that. Or maybe Betty Friedan (sp.)? Bella Abzug? the "alternative" division of Hallmark that produces the pithy sayings for mugs, placemats, etc.? [...] 9688 19 29_Re: Status of women in Israel0_15_DebALev@aol.com29_Sun, 14 Oct 2001 03:37:17 EDT483_US-ASCII I remember Ann Richards using that quote when she addressed the Democratic National Convention.......and it's the title of a book too.

Debbie

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 9708 24 29_Re: Status of women in Israel0_15_DebALev@aol.com29_Sun, 14 Oct 2001 03:40:54 EDT353_US-ASCII In a message dated 10/14/01 12:22:11 AM Pacific Daylight Time, Rachelbern@aol.com writes:

> Ginger Rogers did everything Fred Astaire did, but she did it > backwards, and in high heels



A Google search confirms that it was Faith W......hey, I know, I must not have a life....but at least this is one way to learn! LOL [...] 9733 31 14_mixed messages11_Noam Stopak26_n.stopak@scienceserver.com31_Sun, 14 Oct 2001 09:47:37 -0400518_us-ascii



Skolnik wrote:

> ...There are times when I wonder if this is the same movement I belonged to, judging by some of the letters seen on Habonet, but when push comes to shove people seem to come back to themselves. It is obvious that there are a few disturbed individuals on the list and I have learned to stop answering them unless they really get my hackles up. Choref Tov, as everyone has begun saying to each other since the end of succot.Hope all is well with you and yours,pearl [...] 9765 21 49_adding words in rememberance on the People Finder11_Noam Stopak26_n.stopak@scienceserver.com31_Sun, 14 Oct 2001 09:51:55 -0400486_us-ascii

If you login to the people finder when you view a memorium page there is a link at the top left which allows you to add some words.

Noam

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 9787 20 23_New news site in Hebrew11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org31_Sun, 14 Oct 2001 09:27:21 -0500497_us-ascii I found this on the Maariv on line site. It is a variety of news sources in Hebrew and English. The site itself is in Hebrew. Rozzie

http://www.kria.co.il/

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 9808 35 29_Re: Shdulat Hanashim & Naamat0_15_NEVETS2@aol.com29_Sun, 14 Oct 2001 10:47:27 EDT441_US-ASCII

In a message dated 10/14/01 12:08:01 AM, habonet@shamash.org writes:

<< THE STATUS OF WOMEN IN ISRAEL >>

Israeli Womens Network, IWN known as Shdulat Hanashim in Hebrew was founded in 1984 by British immigrant Professor Alice Shalvi, to improve the status of women in Israel through legislation, legal representation and policy research. ================================================================== [...] 9844 70 18_FW: Confusion.....13_Gayle Charach16_sarazen@home.com31_Sun, 14 Oct 2001 19:12:56 -0400626_iso-8859-1 Interesting points made here...

Gayle Charach ____________________________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________

The following was sent to the NY Times "Letter to the Editor."

Dear Sir:

Let's see. I want to make certain that I have this correct. It is very confusing.

If Israel pinpoints and executes terrorist leaders who have aided in planning attacks on innocent civilians, that is bad. If the United States declares war on terrorist leaders who aided in planning attacks in New York and Washington, that is good. [...] 9915 18 14_Women in Black9_Naomi Jay21_naomi_jay@hotmail.com31_Sun, 14 Oct 2001 18:57:21 -0700 9934 146 5_Islam16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Mon, 15 Oct 2001 01:14:01 -0400632_us-ascii

I had hoped that my posting of Carl Pearlston's piece would begin a recognition of the threat which Bin Laden's variant of Islam poses, and indeed a recognition of the apparently widespread popularity which Bin Laden's variant now has in much of the Muslim world. This doesn't say that there aren't peaceful and spiritual Muslims out there. But we should recognize that the larger Muslim world--north Africa, Mesopotamia, Pakistan, Afghanistan, central Asia and Indonesia--isn't the US. Moreover, the spiritual Sufis that some like to cite are so marginal as not even to be peripheral to greater Islamic life. [...] 10081 27 12_Check it out0_13_SC523@aol.com29_Mon, 15 Oct 2001 02:21:25 EDT340_US-ASCII Since, this past year, we have had so many discussions on this Net about checking our own prejudices, I have been urged by several Habonetters with whom I shared this to share it with the whole Network.

I don't know who the designer is but s/he is quite brilliant/I know you will want to forward it to a lot of people. [...] 10109 39 18_Re: Women in Black0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com29_Mon, 15 Oct 2001 17:18:12 EDT163_US-ASCII In a message dated 10/14/01 9:59:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time, naomi_jay@hotmail.com writes:



> Women in Black

What is women in black? 10149 43 18_Re: Women in Black13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Mon, 15 Oct 2001 17:39:58 -0400 10193 39 11_New B'Tnua!11_Jamie Levin22_mazkir@habonimdror.org31_Tue, 16 Oct 2001 12:03:02 -0400541_iso-8859-1



New B'Tnua. (Will be mailed shortly to chevrei tnua).

http://www.habonimdror.org/batnua_files/september/index.html

or go to www.habonimdror.org click on the B'Tnua button and then click the New Issues or September-December 2001 link

Aleh V'Hagshem,

Jamie Levin Mazkir Tnua Habonim Dror North America

(p) 212-255-1796 (f) 212-929-3459 www.habonimdror.org 114 West 26th ST. #1004 New York, N.Y. 10001 U.S.A. ------------------------------------------------------------------- [...] 10233 39 60_Re: The Hunger Site is back -- join the fight to end hunger!3_EJB16_ejbarkon@msn.com31_Tue, 16 Oct 2001 23:55:39 -0400374_iso-8859-1 Thanks Steve for the reminder! This is a great thing and one I do almost daily. Another site I've found useful for making quick and easy donations is http://www.quickdonations.com/ - you can choose any number of 'causes' you feel are worthwhile. We've used it in the classroom as well, as we've found that kids like to donate to the charity of their choice. [...] 10273 158 9_re: Islam11_Noam Stopak26_n.stopak@scienceserver.com31_Wed, 17 Oct 2001 12:55:13 -0400635_iso-8859-1 Thanks Elihu for your message.

The following from today's Wall Street Journal touches on this subject area. He paints a pretty bleak picture.

Arabs Have Nobody to Blame But Themselves Bin Laden heads a frustrated and failed generation.

BY FOUAD AJAMI Tuesday, October 16, 2001 12:01 a.m.

We should be under no illusions about our struggle against Osama bin Laden and the cultists and terrorists arrayed around him. Although we control the sea lanes and skies of that Arab-Muslim world, he appears to hold sway over the streets of a thwarted civilization, one that sees him as an avenger for [...] 10432 1056 49_Palestinian Offers Idea: Get Israelis on Our Side16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Wed, 17 Oct 2001 22:50:51 -040087_us-ascii

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/10/17/international/middleeast/17PALE.html 11489 146 37_[Fwd: Israel says Arafat era is over]13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Fri, 19 Oct 2001 07:53:05 -0400731_iso-8859-1 Dear Chevreh- I haven't seen anything this dire in the US press. Israelis among us, what do you say? B'tefilat shalom- Judy Gelman

-------- Original Message -------- Subject: Israel says Arafat era is over Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 08:36:17 -0400 From: "Nurev Ind." Organization: Nurev Independent Research



http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0,,2001350019-2001363406,00.html

10/18/01

Israel says Arafat era is over FROM CHRISTOPHER WALKER IN JERUSALEM PLO fears leader is target of assassination plot Sharon warning of war within a week THE Middle East moved closer to a new war yesterday as Ariel Sharon declared the Arafat era over and moved tanks into three [...] 11636 30 41_Re: [Fwd: Israel says Arafat era is over]0_15_DebALev@aol.com29_Fri, 19 Oct 2001 08:00:38 EDT505_US-ASCII In a message dated 10/19/01 4:54:49 AM Pacific Daylight Time, gelman@erols.com writes:

> Dear Chevreh- > I haven't seen anything this dire in the US press. Israelis among us, > what do you say? > B'tefilat shalom- > Judy Gelman

Judy, it was mentioned on one of the news shows here yesterday.......I think it was ABC with Peter Jennings. Of course, it was placed in a context of how Sharon is so intransigent, how angry Israelis are at the assassination, etc. But that was all. [...] 11667 36 41_Re: [Fwd: Israel says Arafat era is over]14_Paul Fingerman29_paul.fingerman@mindspring.com31_Fri, 19 Oct 2001 05:26:35 -0700588_us-ascii In MSNBC's regular news broadcast the ministerial assasination was not even mentioned (though it did come up in a later opinion piece).

At 08:00 AM 10/19/01 -0400, DebALev@aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 10/19/01 4:54:49 AM Pacific Daylight Time, >gelman@erols.com writes: > > > Dear Chevreh- > > I haven't seen anything this dire in the US press. Israelis among us, > > what do you say? > > B'tefilat shalom- > > Judy Gelman > >Judy, it was mentioned on one of the news shows here yesterday.......I think >it was ABC with Peter Jennings. Of course, it was placed [...] 11704 29 41_Re: [Fwd: Israel says Arafat era is over]0_15_DebALev@aol.com29_Fri, 19 Oct 2001 08:41:08 EDT483_US-ASCII In a message dated 10/19/01 5:29:30 AM Pacific Daylight Time, paul.fingerman@mindspring.com writes:

> In MSNBC's regular news broadcast the ministerial assasination was not even > mentioned (though it did come up in a later opinion piece).

I would have missed any mention of it, frankly....it was quick and minimal. But now I get the Israeline emails, so I knew about it and knew to listen for it. Still, any mention of it didn't appear until last night. [...] 11734 91 41_Re: [Fwd: Israel says Arafat era is over]0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Fri, 19 Oct 2001 11:24:34 EDT476_US-ASCII Governments don't assassinate leaders of other governments because they don't want to be assassinated themselves. The logic is compelling. Arafat has lost whatever credibility he every had, so he is of little use to anybody except as a propagandist, which I think he does very well. Look most people think if Palestine as a country taken over by Israel with a dislocated people of nationalistic bent, called Palestinians. That's no insignificant accomplishment. [...] 11826 135 41_Re: [Fwd: Israel says Arafat era is over]13_Shloime Perel21_itsmeshloime@yahoo.ca37_Fri, 19 Oct 2001 14:01:10 -0400 (EDT)367_us-ascii Hi, You All:

To comment on Dennis'es letter (hello, Dennis, I'll write). . . I don't accept our classical slogan "A land without a people, a people without a land," particularly the former part. There was/is another People living there. Wasn't this also a popular notion, in practise, about the U.S. at one time (and maybe not only at one time)? [...] 11962 138 99_=?iso-8859-1?B?4fLw6envOiBbRndkOiBJc3JhZWwgc2F5cyBBcmFmYXQgZXJhIGk=?= =?iso-8859-1?B?cyBvdmVyXQ==?=8_ericmoli25_ericmoli@netvision.net.il31_Fri, 19 Oct 2001 21:44:27 +0200346_iso-8859-1

---Dear Dennis,

Your letter has caught my vivid imagination and, if I had thought of writing it I would also send it off to a newspaper (of your choice) to Letters to the Editor. Who knows if your ideas might not catch the imagination of a myrad of readers with similar thoughts. Who knows what this might lead to. [...] 12101 62 41_Re: [Fwd: Israel says Arafat era is over]0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Fri, 19 Oct 2001 16:10:37 EDT383_US-ASCII Its always great to hear from Sol. Hi, Sol. Please do write. Like others on Habonet I spend too many waking and other hours trying to sort out a solution. I sometimes see myself as a poor parody of Woody Allen in Annie Hall, discussing the Kennedy assassination rather than making love to his first wife. Fortunately I have a second wife, but that's a different story. [...] 12164 175 24_FWD: FW: Terrific Speech11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org31_Fri, 19 Oct 2001 16:53:29 -0500377_us-ascii A speech by an American-Israeli. It is a speech delivered on Sept. 23 by Chief Rabbi Professor Jonathan Sacks, at the Israel Solidarity Rally, Drury Lane Theatre, London.

***********************************

Of the 6000 languages spoken in the world today, only one is truly universal: the language of tears. And that is the language we speak today. [...] 12340 89 38_Der Forverts, under any other name....0_15_NEVETS2@aol.com29_Fri, 19 Oct 2001 21:11:01 EDT376_US-ASCII Chevre, Shabat Shalom

As an avid, if not fervent reader of the English Forward I can recommend it highly to you. And now at Sam Norich's favorable rates, not to mention under JJ Goldberg's politically friendly editorship. It's the best way to stay on top of what's happening in the American Jewish community and to be reminded of who the "good guys" are. [...] 12430 30 14_Marty's goodby14_Ethan Schwartz24_schwar1@netvision.net.il31_Sat, 20 Oct 2001 19:22:02 +0200375_iso-8859-1



20 October 2001

Shalom Chevreh,

I'm writing to let you all know about the following decision that I made prior to the events of September 11: At the beginning of November, I will leave Tel Aviv and return to San Francisco.

Once I am established in San Francisco, I will rejoin Habonet.

Very best wishes until then. [...] 12461 42 4_land16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Sat, 20 Oct 2001 16:27:46 -0400296_us-ascii DLerner, in Habonet 2035 wrote

> Currently I'm wondering if Israel couldn't simply cede so much of the West Bank as it chose to Jordan and Gaza to > Egypt and let them deal with the problems. > Neither Jordan nor Egypt want the headaches that the populations of those areas bring. 12504 217 5_Tom F0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com29_Sat, 20 Oct 2001 20:00:54 EDT613_UTF-8 October 16, 2001

FOREIGN AFFAIRS

Saudi Royals and Reality

By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN> >hree cheers for Mayor Rudy Giuliani for returning the $10 million donation made by a Saudi billionaire, Prince Alwaleed bin Talal, after he toured the World Trade Center ruins, handed the mayor a check and then declared that it was time to get at the "roots" of this terrorism ג€” which the Saudi royal defined as the U.S. failure to push Israel to make peace with the Palestinians and to stop Israel from "slaughtering" Palestinians. No doubt there is deep Arab anger over U.S. support for Israel. [...] 12722 215 20_It's freedom stupid.0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com29_Sat, 20 Oct 2001 20:15:12 EDT627_UTF-8 October 9, 2001

FOREIGN AFFAIRS

It's Freedom, Stupid

By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN>



> happened to be reading Richard Reeves's compelling new biography of Richard Nixon last week, when a paragraph about Israel caught my eye. It was a memo that Nixon wrote to Henry Kissinger in 1969, describing his, and America's, feelings about Israel: "[The Israelis] must recognize that our interests are basically pro-freedom and not just pro- Israel because of the Jewish vote. . . . [Golda] Meir . . . must trust [Nixon] completely. He will see to it that Israel always has `an edge.' This is going [...] 12938 67 25_Naamat and women's rights14_The Bernhardts24_miriam_b@neve-ilan.co.il31_Sat, 20 Oct 2001 21:59:33 +0200596_us-ascii Recently, There was an exchange of letters in connection with the fight for women's rights in Israel. Steve raised the issue of whether we as Labor Zionist and Naamat in particular were contributing to this battle. There is a web site in Hebrew dealing with Naamat (still the women's portion of the Histadrut). This is www.naamat.org.il. There is a web site in English, published by Naamat in the States. This is www.naamat.org. There are some sections which aren't totally updated, but there is a lot of information to be found. (When I write Naamat, I will mean Naamat in Israel. [...] 13006 184 21_what needs to be said13_Yuval Warshai16_warshais@tir.com31_Mon, 22 Oct 2001 15:53:58 -0400614_Windows-1252 The article below, published today in Haaretz, spells a kind of eerie consensus between Osama bin Laden and the genuine interests of Western foreign policy and the interests of world peace. The letter that is reproduced in it in its entirety was written by a large association of foreign US Middle East diplomats and sent to President Bush. It not only highlights some striking successes of Bush's National Security team since September 11, extolling his own personal performance in a manner I would have personally shuddered at before reading it, but it also makes the right, the moral, and the [...] 13191 43 30_Re: Former diplomats urge Bush0_15_NEVETS2@aol.com29_Tue, 23 Oct 2001 03:40:35 EDT394_US-ASCII

In a message dated 10/23/01 12:12:53 AM, Yuval Warshai writes:

<< [Look also carefully at the long list of signatories at the end. The signature of former US Ambassador to Israel Samuel W. Lewis allayed any lingering political concerns I may have harbored while reading the letter, and before getting to it.] >> ====================================== Yuval, Shalom [...] 13235 39 15_Registered yet?0_15_NEVETS2@aol.com29_Tue, 23 Oct 2001 03:49:25 EDT634_US-ASCII www.azm.org

Please get out your credit card and go register to vote.

You know what I'm talking about!

Love,

Chaver Steve ================================================

PS And please be sure to check off on the registration form that you are affiliated with the Labor Zionists. You're reading this on Habonet, aren't you? I rest my case.

Also, please write me privately to tell me how proud you are of the Israel Labor Party today. :) Also write me to tell me who else besides Labor will assure us that the WZO and JAFI will continue to support Habonim Dror. I don't care what [...] 13275 25 57_Palestinian fires on former boss, passers-by in Jerusalem13_avi rosenberg16_avi@gezer.org.il31_Tue, 23 Oct 2001 10:18:32 +0200682_us-ascii For all you former residents of Gezer, the soldier who shot this guy, is Ramin, former ben meshek of Gezer, Birgit and Henry's son.

>http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=85710&contrassID=2&subContrassID=1&sbSubContrassID=0



Avi Rosenberg webDesign - cybermedia.co.il Tel: 972-8-9204075 Fax: 972-8-9270736

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 13301 860 70_The Jerusalem Post Newspaper : Online News From Israel - Books Article16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Tue, 23 Oct 2001 08:11:36 -0400182_us-ascii Lubavitch messianism may be the most dangerous intellectual trend in contemporary Jewish life.



http://www.jpost.com/Editions/2001/10/19/Books/Books.36571.html 14162 56 19_Re: Registered yet?11_Omri Kelmer24_shaliach@habonimdror.org31_Tue, 23 Oct 2001 08:31:40 -0400639_iso-8859-1 Hi Chaver Steve you late.... I already registered omri ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2001 3:49 AM Subject: Registered yet?



> www.azm.org > > Please get out your credit card and go register to vote. > > You know what I'm talking about! > > Love, > > Chaver Steve > ================================================ > > PS And please be sure to check off on the registration form that you are > affiliated with the Labor Zionists. You're reading this on Habonet, aren't > you? I rest my case. > > Also, please write [...] 14219 27 30_Re: Former diplomats urge Bush13_Yuval Warshai16_warshais@tir.com31_Tue, 23 Oct 2001 10:10:51 -0400525_Windows-1252 > Thanks for bringing this letter to our attention. Any idea why Dennis Ross > didn't sign on? Former Ambassador Indyk?

I believe they didn't sign because the letter is the initiative of retired US diplomats, and I don't think the two you mention, which I thought about, are not yet retired. As for the rest of your hesitating and waffling position, are you with Sharon or are you with peace? Sharon doesn't want peace and he will not allow peace as long as he is in a position to do so. ___ |Y| ^^^ [...] 14247 37 30_Re: Former diplomats urge Bush13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Tue, 23 Oct 2001 10:35:47 -0400551_us-ascii Dear Yuval- Dennis Ross is no longer in the government and has not been hesitant to speak out about what he thinks so I assume he either was not asked or that he disagrees. Warmly- Judy Gelman

Yuval Warshai wrote:

> > Thanks for bringing this letter to our attention. Any idea why Dennis > Ross > > didn't sign on? Former Ambassador Indyk? > > I believe they didn't sign because the letter is the initiative of retired > US diplomats, and I don't think the two you mention, which I thought about, > are not yet retired. As [...] 14285 31 30_Re: Former diplomats urge Bush13_Yuval Warshai16_warshais@tir.com31_Tue, 23 Oct 2001 10:40:15 -0400515_Windows-1252 > Dear Yuval- > Dennis Ross is no longer in the government and has not been hesitant to speak > out about what he thinks so I assume he either was not asked or that he > disagrees. > Warmly- > Judy Gelman

That he is not in active government service does not mean he is retired. I am actually pretty sure he is NOT retired and he doesn't want the government to see and consider him as retired. But that is not really the core issue - the core issue is that the letter is correct and that is [...] 14317 20 30_Re: Former diplomats urge Bush0_15_DebALev@aol.com29_Tue, 23 Oct 2001 12:39:40 EDT568_US-ASCII I found it interesting that, in that long list of names, only ONE was connected to Israel. I'm sure there has been more than one US official connected to Israel. So........could this possibly be significant?

Debbie the dubious

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 14338 102 36_Habonim Dror Foundation (HDF) Update0_14_KBob24@aol.com29_Tue, 23 Oct 2001 15:40:36 EDT580_US-ASCII Hi folks:

As Steve Weinberg occasionally reminds me (thanks Steve), the HDFis the proud initiator and ongoing sponsor of Habonet, so I feel it is appropriate to report occasionally to our online community. Hopefully this won't take up too much of your time.

As most or all of you know, the HDF was established with a singular purpose - to financially support Habonim Dror. The movement has lost most of its traditional sources of support over the years and alumni and supporters have had to step up and do our part. I am happy to say that we have done [...] 14441 49 18_Habonet Membership13_Shloime Perel21_itsmeshloime@yahoo.ca37_Tue, 23 Oct 2001 15:58:04 -0400 (EDT)353_us-ascii Dear Ken,

Greeings! I'd like to know whether it's possible for someone who wasn't in Habonim to get Habonet. I know someone who is the Labor Zionist Organization coordinator or director in Canada. He has worked with Habonim in the past, especially in support of the Ontario summer camp. How can he get on the email list, or can he? [...] 14491 343 24_FORWARD : Arts & Letters16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Tue, 23 Oct 2001 10:22:53 -040071_us-ascii

http://www.forward.com/issues/2001/01.10.19/arts3.html 14835 354 73_Fwd: Support Israel's demand for extradition of Ze'evi's killers! (VIPAC)0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Tue, 23 Oct 2001 17:11:52 EDT116_US-ASCII I know these things are basically useless- but sometimes you have to do something just to do something..Sue 15190 72 12_Ezra Michael15_Kaufman, Albert26_Albert.Kaufman@METROKC.GOV31_Tue, 23 Oct 2001 16:54:22 -0700345_iso-8859-1 Hi everyone,

My sister, Liz Kaufman-Taylor (formerly Rosh at Galil and other fancy stuff) and her husband Andrew Taylor, had a bouncing baby boy the day before yesterday.

His name is Ezra Michael and he is 8 lbs. and 19 inches long. He's healthy and so's my sis.

Galil Amelim 2011...

Albert Kaufman Seattle 15263 20 16_Re: Ezra Michael0_15_DebALev@aol.com29_Tue, 23 Oct 2001 20:09:26 EDT431_ISO-8859-1 MAZAL TOV, Albert K!

I see you're working for the county now...good luck!

Debbie

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 15284 17 13_Memorial site11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org31_Tue, 23 Oct 2001 20:08:51 -0500435_us-ascii A diverse, thoughtful site, from a Jewish perspective.

http://wtcrem.homestead.com/Index.html

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 15302 47 16_Re: Ezra Michael0_13_SC523@aol.com29_Wed, 24 Oct 2001 00:41:08 EDT421_US-ASCII

In a message dated 10/23/01 7:59:33 PM, Albert.Kaufman@METROKC.GOV writes:

<< Hi everyone,



My sister, Liz Kaufman-Taylor (formerly Rosh at Galil and other fancy stuff)

and her husband Andrew Taylor, had a bouncing baby boy the day before

yesterday.



His name is Ezra Michael and he is 8 lbs. and 19 inches long. He's healthy

and so's my sis. [...] 15350 41 16_Introducing Omri0_15_NEVETS2@aol.com29_Wed, 24 Oct 2001 03:30:02 EDT554_US-ASCII From: "Omri Kelmer" To: Subject: Re: Registered yet? Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 08:31:40 -0400

Hi Chaver Steve you're late.... I already registered omri =================================

Chevre, Shalom

The Habonet subscriber above may need an introduction. He's Omri Kelmer, our new Central Shaliach of Habonim Dror. Ben meshek of Kibbutz Beeri, he is here with his wife, living in America's Rechavia (the upper West Side). Private greetings and introductions are in order. [...] 15392 33 16_Women in Judaism11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org31_Wed, 24 Oct 2001 05:39:42 -0500458_us-ascii From: Dina Ripsman Eylon Subject: Press Release - Women in Judaism Vol. 2:2 [This message has been edited.]

PRESS RELEASE Toronto, October 17, 2001 Women in Judaism: A Multidisciplinary Journal, Volume 2, No. 2, (Summer, 2001)

We are delighted to announce the electronic publication of a new issue of Women in Judaism: A Multidisciplinary Journal. The journal can be accessed at http://www.women-in-judaism.com. [...] 15426 17 8_Sad news11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org31_Wed, 24 Oct 2001 05:41:48 -0500496_us-ascii We just received a phone call from Israel. Libby Cohen (Bresalier) just passed away after a long illness. The funeral is Friday at 15:00 at Kibbutz Gesher haziv.

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 15444 260 41_=?iso-8859-1?B?5PLh+OQ6IExhdGVzdCBOZXdz?=8_ericmoli25_ericmoli@netvision.net.il31_Wed, 24 Oct 2001 18:45:01 +0200307_iso-8859-1

----- Original Message ----- From: Pnina Some To: Schwager Sema ; Mollie Eric Marx ; Rafi M Some ; Lillian Liss ; Connie Campbell ; Joe Hersh ; Dena Satinoff ; Hickie Cheifetz ; Issie D Oiring ; Julie Maury Tretakoff Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2001 12:21 PM Subject: Fw: Latest News [...] 15705 19 55_=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=E4=F2=E1=F8=E4:=20Latest=20News?=0_15_DebALev@aol.com29_Wed, 24 Oct 2001 12:59:04 EDT450_US-ASCII Y'all already know that I'm not fond of "jokes" here. This one was particularly offensive and racist.

Debbie

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 15725 182 49_Re: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=E4=F2=E1=F8=E4?=: Latest News13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Wed, 24 Oct 2001 13:18:34 -0400 15908 22 55_=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=E4=F2=E1=F8=E4:=20Latest=20News?=0_15_DebALev@aol.com29_Wed, 24 Oct 2001 13:54:58 EDT564_US-ASCII I sent this to the list earlier; my posts have not been showing up on habonet for the last couple of days.

Y'all already know that I'm not fond of "jokes" here. This one was particularly offensive and racist.

Debbie

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 15931 19 49_=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:_=E4=F2=E1=F8=E4:_Latest_News?=0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Wed, 24 Oct 2001 15:28:54 EDT389_ISO-8859-1 Right on Judy! Tell it like it is girl! Amen! Dennis

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 15951 28 15_Re: Latest News11_Noam Stopak26_n.stopak@scienceserver.com31_Wed, 24 Oct 2001 15:41:28 -0400380_us-ascii

Hi Debbie,

Perhaps you aren't configured to receive your own posts from habonet? Plenty of your messages reached me in the past few days including this one twice.

I'm not sure how this is more racist than the joke that had you rolling on the floor laughing.

I'm curious why people only find this racist with regard to African-Americans. [...] 15980 23 30_Newest Member of Fleiss Family12_David Fleiss20_dfleiss@pipeline.com31_Wed, 24 Oct 2001 15:52:42 -0400355_us-ascii On 10/10, my sister Cindy Yaeger (formerly Cindy Fleiss, Na'aleh 78-80) gave birth to Jackson Eric (Ya'akov Yitzchak). Mother, father, and son are all well.

Jackson is grandchild number four for my parents, Izzy and Lori Fleiss. He joins his cousins Rachel, Rebecca, and Daniel Fleiss (all children of Michael Fleiss, Na'aleh 78-80). [...] 16004 78 22_Re: Habonet Membership0_14_KBob24@aol.com29_Wed, 24 Oct 2001 22:14:30 EDT574_US-ASCII Hi:

I am copying the moderator of Habonet, Brain Cooper (former Montrealer) as this is his domain. I think it is appropriate for the person you mentioned to join Habonet, but I'll leave it up to him to finalize with you.

Thanks,

Ken

> > Dear Ken, > > Greeings! I'd like to know whether it's possible > for someone who wasn't in Habonim to get Habonet. > I know someone who is the Labor Zionist Organization > coordinator or director in Canada. He has worked with > Habonim in the past, especially in support of the > Ontario summer [...] 16083 378 21_Important Information0_13_SC523@aol.com29_Thu, 25 Oct 2001 02:31:52 EDT391_UTF-8 Dear Chevreh,

Some of us living in New York have been so affected by the bleakness of the situation these days that we try to spend a little extra time each day doing tikkun olam. Although some of you may have already received the following consolidation email from me or excerpts of it from others, please excuse if this is a duplication. It is all important information. [...] 16462 837 22_Bush's Mideast Charade16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Thu, 25 Oct 2001 08:34:13 -040070_us-ascii

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/10/25/opinion/25SAFI.html 17300 38 26_Re: Bush's Mideast Charade13_Yuval Warshai16_warshais@tir.com31_Thu, 25 Oct 2001 11:33:06 -0400638_Windows-1252 Bush's Mideast CharadeDear Elihu,

Just so that I can understand where you yourself stand for future reference: Are you with Safire and the American hawkish right-wing to the right of George W. Bush (including the Christian Coalition), and by extension in Israel with Sharon, with the Likud, with the settlers, and with all those advocating a military solution for the long-standing Israeli-Palestinian conflict? Or are you with those who still believe that a solution of compromise and of coexistence preceded the current global war in the making by at least half a century, and could have been achieved long ago [...] 17339 158 22_An important viewpoint14_Paul Fingerman29_paul.fingerman@mindspring.com31_Thu, 25 Oct 2001 10:08:36 -0700383_iso-8859-1 Here's something I keep hearing whispers about -- guess it's not acceptable thought, but I'm glad someone published the position.

From the Wall Street Journal ---

October 24, 2001 Commentary Islam Can't Escape Blame for Sept. 11

By Amir Taheri. Mr. Taheri, an Iranian author and journalist, is editor of the Paris-based Politique Internationale. [...] 17498 47 26_Re: An important viewpoint12_David Fleiss20_dfleiss@pipeline.com31_Thu, 25 Oct 2001 13:37:18 -0400608_us-ascii Paul Fingerman forwarded an article from the Wall Street Journal which may be summarized by the following excerpt:

>>> The Muslim world today is full of bigotry, fanaticism, hypocrisy and plain ignorance -- all of which create a breeding ground for criminals like bin Laden. <<<

In my view, the problem with articles such as this one is that a selective reading of *any* country's media can lead the reader to the same conclusion. For example, in the days after 9/11 some media pundits in the United States were calling for all Muslims to be forcibly converted to Christianity or [...] 17546 54 26_Re: An important viewpoint14_Paul Fingerman29_paul.fingerman@mindspring.com31_Thu, 25 Oct 2001 11:01:32 -0700376_us-ascii A fair criticism, David. Now, consider the weight of data relating to the argument. Was it the mainstream US press that espoused such positions? Was it the mainstream press of Islamic nations that espoused "bigotry, fanaticism....?" How do the educational institutions of the US and Islam compare on the introduction of heterogenous viewpoints, tolerance, etc.? [...] 17601 27 26_Re: An important viewpoint0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Thu, 25 Oct 2001 17:02:35 EDT615_ISO-8859-1 David.

One does not need to try very hard to hear the incredible spectrum of Jewish opinion on any and all subjects. Look no further than these pages.

Can one collect items from the breadth of American media expressions -- of course, of every stripe.

Where, David, does one find the same variation in the expressions coming from within Islam, whether Fatwas, text books, political leadership, the Islamic media. The problem is not as I see it the lack of a central authority, but the division of Islamic views into the lockstep voices of anti-Israel - anti-US diatribe, and the [...] 17629 71 26_Re: An important viewpoint12_David Fleiss20_dfleiss@pipeline.com31_Thu, 25 Oct 2001 17:17:17 -0400443_us-ascii No question about it, there's a wider range of expression in US media than most (all?) of the Muslim world, where the media is often state-controlled.

My point was only to question whether the author's sampling of Muslim media was representative. I don't understand Arabic or Swahili myself, so I have to rely on what others report. Perhaps the Muslim world is largely of one mind on this matter -- I honestly don't know. [...] 17701 34 26_Re: An important viewpoint12_David Fleiss20_dfleiss@pipeline.com31_Thu, 25 Oct 2001 17:36:04 -0400391_us-ascii DLerner569@aol.com asked: >Where, David, does one find the same variation in the expressions coming >from within Islam, whether Fatwas, text books, political leadership, the >Islamic media. The problem is not as I see it the lack of a central >authority, but the division of Islamic views into the lockstep voices of >anti-Israel - anti-US diatribe, and the voices of silence. [...] 17736 692 60_TNR Online | Homeland Security. Redefined. by Eric Dezenhall16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Thu, 25 Oct 2001 23:56:33 -040074_us-ascii

http://www.thenewrepublic.com/online/dezenhall102201.html 18429 87 26_Re: An important viewpoint0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com29_Fri, 26 Oct 2001 09:50:44 EDT598_US-ASCII

There is no single viewpoint reflecting the muslim world. It is however possible to say that the Jewish world has been held hostage to a minority of extremist settlers in the territories. To a much greater extent, the muslim world, despite the diversity of opinion, is being held hostage by its extremist. By this I simply mean, that significant numbers of moslems have not been able to recognise the need to take a forceful unambiguos stand against extremism. I hope that we as Jews and Zionists will set an example and stand up to extremism. The settlements must go. Sharon [...] 18517 77 16_Yuval's question16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Fri, 26 Oct 2001 10:50:56 -0400603_us-ascii Yuval: In Habonet 2040 you pose the following question to me.

> Just so that I can understand where you yourself stand for future reference: > Are you with Safire and the American hawkish right-wing to the right of > George W. Bush (including the Christian Coalition), and by extension in > Israel with Sharon, with the Likud, with the settlers, and with all those > advocating a military solution for the long-standing Israeli-Palestinian > conflict? Or are you with those who still believe that a solution of > compromise and of coexistence preceded the current global war in the [...] 18595 29 17_Re: Elihu's reply13_Yuval Warshai16_warshais@tir.com31_Fri, 26 Oct 2001 10:59:14 -0400566_Windows-1252 Dear Elihu,

>From your reply I understand you are undecided, wavering on the war winds as most people these days. I agree basically with what Sam said earlier, but no, I don't think there are any easy answers to the problems we and our world face. One thing seems clear: Israelis and Palestinians left to themselves will not be able to achieve any degree of peace and stability, now or ever; left to their own devices the only thing they seem able to achieve is to kill each other "ad hormah," until the only thing left standing in the land [...] 18625 71 61_If you are to read one email from me this year read this one!11_Jamie Levin22_mazkir@habonimdror.org31_Fri, 26 Oct 2001 16:20:34 -0400351_iso-8859-1 The registration period for the elections of the World Zionist Congress have begun. What does this mean to Habonim Dror? Well, I'll tell you:

The World Zionist Organization is governed by the World Zionist Congress. The Congress passes political resolutions and sets the budget and other policy decisions for the Jewish Agency. [...] 18697 30 26_Re: An important viewpoint0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Fri, 26 Oct 2001 18:08:21 EDT202_US-ASCII I'll happily trade you the settlements for peace and a Israeli Jerudalem with assured international access, after 3 years of no attackes and normalized relationships with the Palestinian state. 18728 606 55_=?windows-1255?B?5PLh+OQ6IHVuYW5zd2VyZWQgcXVlc3Rpb25z?=8_ericmoli25_ericmoli@netvision.net.il31_Sat, 27 Oct 2001 23:00:04 +0200498_windows-1255

----- Original Message ----- From: Pnina Some To: Joe Hersh ; Issie D Oiring ; Lillian Liss ; Mollie Eric Marx ; Schwager Sema ; Helen & Lionel Koven ; Julie Maury Tretakoff Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2001 3:05 PM Subject: unanswered questions





----- Original Message ----- From: dena satinoff To: ralph troper ; edgar fromm ; julia chaitin ; rita and speedy spivak ; pnina`` some Sent: Friday, October 26, 2001 6:46 PM Subject: Fw: שאלות לא פתורות [...] 19335 283 8_Sad News15_Leo Diesendruck18_leodie@isdn.net.il31_Sun, 28 Oct 2001 16:27:16 +0200483_windows-1255 David Breslau died in Jerusalem yesterday. He was recuperating in the hospital from an operation.

Some facts of his life from my Habonim in Israel database are as follows:

In the US he was active in Gordonia, Young Poale Zion and Habonim in the years 1928, and 1934 - .

He held the positions of Rosh Machaneh, Rosh Kvutza, Mazkir, Director of the Chay Commission, Dean of the Habonim Institute in Israel 1946 – 48, Director at Accord 1938 -39. [...] 19619 34 11_On the Road0_13_JLCAA@aol.com29_Sun, 28 Oct 2001 13:45:15 EST199_US-ASCII Anyone trying to reach me this week should email to jlcexec@aol.com. I will be in Jerusalem for the World Jewish Congress Plenary, but I should be able to access my account. Thanks. Avi Lyon 19654 496 11_unsubscribe14_Rachael Migler31_miglerk@rockvax.rockefeller.edu31_Sun, 28 Oct 2001 20:51:56 -05009_us-ascii 20151 34 15_Re: unsubscribe0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Sun, 28 Oct 2001 21:31:38 EST189_US-ASCII I'm sorry, I did not want to unsubscribe to Habonet. I was getting marketing materials and got confused. It would be helpful if Habonet appeared in the mail listing. Thanks, Dennis 20186 22 23_Re: HABONET digest 20430_17_Shulansid@aol.com29_Mon, 29 Oct 2001 08:58:08 EST458_US-ASCII Sorry to hear of Dave Breslau's passing.... another ikon has left us.....Shula Troy











------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 20209 102 24_music program in dc area0_15_Marshlf@aol.com29_Mon, 29 Oct 2001 09:02:43 EST440_ISO-8859-1 fyi-- A three- part family music program entitled "Three Cantors and a Rabbi: Prayer, Song and the Joy of Being Jewish" will begin Sunday, November 4, 2001 from 9:30 to 11:00 am, at Mishkan Torah Synagogue in Greenbelt, Md. Ramon Tasat, cantor of Temple Shalom, will lead the programs on November 4 and December 2. A Musical Shabbat will be led by Mishkan Torah's Cantor Phil Greenfield on Friday, December 14, at 8:00 P.M. [...] 20312 16 25_Re: Important Information0_17_JackNusan@aol.com29_Mon, 29 Oct 2001 10:12:23 EST591_ISO-8859-1 Hi, Aliyah! Will bein NYC around Nov. 1-3. May stop by to say hello; coming up fromKey West, my new bi-latitudinal home--half in Boston; half time in Key west or there about. I really love this place. From your friendly pirate--Jackie Porter in Key West.

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 20329 16 23_Re: HABONET digest 20430_17_JackNusan@aol.com29_Mon, 29 Oct 2001 10:29:53 EST506_ISO-8859-1 Yes, the icons are dying. I hope someone in Israel has and is taping these people's memoirs or else we will lose them forever. My best to all--Rabbi Dr Jack Nusan Porter

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 20346 32 23_Re: HABONET digest 20430_15_RONOREN@aol.com29_Mon, 29 Oct 2001 13:51:18 EST631_US-ASCII

In a message dated 10/28/01 9:05:02 PM, habonet@shamash.org writes:

<< David Breslau died in Jerusalem yesterday. He was recuperating in the hospital from an operation. Some facts of his life from my Habonim in Israel database are as follows: >>

...and of course, he edited the first 2 Habonim books, "ADVENTURE IN PIONEERING" and "ARISE AND BUILD", both still wonderful reads. There has been some discussion of reprinting these. If there seems to be enough interest, I can initiate proceedings. Perhaps now would be a good time. Ron Orenstein, Archivist, So. California Habonim ronoren@aol.com [...] 20379 123 26_Why Muslims commit suicide14_Holtzer Family20_carmdave@urim.org.il31_Mon, 29 Oct 2001 21:02:21 +0200493_windows-1255

> > Why are radical Muslim terrorists so quick to commit suicide? > > > > Let's look at their lifestyle: > > > > No premarital sex. > > No oral sex. Giving or receiving. Never. > > No booze. None. > > No TV. No cable TV. > > No Spice channel. No Playboy channel. > > No Hooters. "What is this Hooters of which you speak ?!?" > > No titty bars. > > No organized sports of any kind. That's right -- no sports. > > The women have to wear baggy dresses and veil's. Women [...] 20503 71 31_Send me something plain... text15_Kaufman, Albert26_Albert.Kaufman@METROKC.GOV31_Mon, 29 Oct 2001 13:45:07 -0800326_iso-8859-1 Suggestion: to all list members. In many e-mail clients (Outlook, Outlook Express, etc.) there is a way to decide when you send to an address whether or not you'll be sending in plain text or HTML. Please open your address book, look at the properties you have for the Habonet address and choose "plain text". [...] 20575 69 30_Re: Why Muslims commit suicide13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Mon, 29 Oct 2001 16:59:23 -0500 20645 201 30_RE: Why Muslims commit suicide11_Batel Libes25_batel_libes@earthlink.net31_Mon, 29 Oct 2001 14:48:09 -0800573_US-ASCII I fully agree with Judy and am embarrassed to have received this through Habonet. Could any one of those who posted similar jokes either recently or a long time ago, please explain why you did so. Please don't take this as a sarcastic comment, rather as an honest request to hear one's reasons and maybe understand their reasons. Batel -----Original Message----- From: owner-habonet@shamash.org [mailto:owner-habonet@shamash.org]On Behalf Of Judith Gelman Sent: Monday, October 29, 2001 1:59 PM To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: Re: Why Muslims commit suicide [...] 20847 130 30_RE: Why Muslims commit suicide13_Shloime Perel21_itsmeshloime@yahoo.ca37_Mon, 29 Oct 2001 18:48:50 -0500 (EST)597_us-ascii Greetings!

I more than fully agree with Judy, except for one thing: this "joke" is worse than garbage, since garbage is recyclable, but the so-called joke isn't.

Sol Perel

--- Batel Libes wrote: > I fully agree with Judy and am embarrassed to have > received this through > Habonet. Could any one of those who posted similar > jokes either recently or > a long time ago, please explain why you did so. > Please don't take this as a > sarcastic comment, rather as an honest request to > hear one's reasons and > maybe understand their [...] 20978 37 23_Re: HABONET digest 20438_Pristoop22_cpristoo@mail.bcpl.net31_Mon, 29 Oct 2001 19:02:36 -0500627_us-ascii I for one would love to put my hands on new copies of these wonderful publications. Allan S. Pristoop

At 01:51 PM 10/29/01 -0500, you wrote:

>In a message dated 10/28/01 9:05:02 PM, habonet@shamash.org writes: > ><< David Breslau died in Jerusalem yesterday. He was recuperating in the >hospital from an operation. >Some facts of his life from my Habonim in Israel database are as >follows: >> > >...and of course, he edited the first 2 Habonim books, "ADVENTURE IN >PIONEERING" and >"ARISE AND BUILD", both still wonderful reads. There has been some discussion >of reprinting these. If there seems [...] 21016 29 30_Re: Why Muslims commit suicide0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com29_Mon, 29 Oct 2001 20:17:44 EST126_US-ASCII Does anyone but me find it humorous that those who complained about the joke have it repeated under their complaints? 21046 32 35_Adventures in Pioneering on the Web12_Dave Edelman21_docdave@optonline.net31_Mon, 29 Oct 2001 21:36:32 -0500380_us-ascii Chevrah,

While it is still very much a work in progress, I have scanned and converted to text Adventures in Pioneering. It still requires a bit of proofreading and review by other than these weary eyes.

The URL is: http://www.ezaccess.net/dedelman/index.shtml

I still need to put all those photographs in place but that will have to wait a bit. [...] 21079 25 30_Re: Why Muslims commit suicide0_13_SC523@aol.com29_Tue, 30 Oct 2001 02:08:48 EST348_US-ASCII I'm going to repeat a strong request from 3 weeks ago - no jokes on Habonet, please!!! Certainly no racist references and stereotypes. Come on, this is Habonim, remember -where we were raised to abhor racial slurs.

But even silly jokes - come on. CAn't we spend our time better? There are plenty of other listserves for jokes. [...] 21105 24 23_Re: HABONET digest 20440_17_Geokat100@aol.com29_Tue, 30 Oct 2001 02:34:45 EST638_US-ASCII In a message dated 10/29/01 10:12:21 PM Mountain Standard Time, habonet@shamash.org writes:

<< Does anyone but me find it humorous that those who complained about the joke have it repeated under their complaints? >>

Nah. It's more like having dog droppings stuck to your shoe.

Kathy

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 21130 33 23_Re: HABONET digest 20440_15_DebALev@aol.com29_Tue, 30 Oct 2001 05:15:39 EST481_US-ASCII

In a message dated 10/30/01 2:35:23 AM, Geokat100@aol.com writes:

<< In a message dated 10/29/01 10:12:21 PM Mountain Standard Time, habonet@shamash.org writes:

<< Does anyone but me find it humorous that those who complained about the joke have it repeated under their complaints? >> >>

Due to the vagaries of the internet, I didn't see this question, but.....many email programs AUTOMATICALLY include the post to which a reply is sent. [...] 21164 33 23_Re: HABONET digest 204411_Noam Stopak26_n.stopak@scienceserver.com31_Tue, 30 Oct 2001 07:55:53 -0500520_us-ascii



DebALev@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 10/30/01 2:35:23 AM, Geokat100@aol.com writes: > > << In a message dated 10/29/01 10:12:21 PM Mountain Standard Time, > habonet@shamash.org writes: > > << Does anyone but me find it humorous that those who complained about the > joke have it repeated under their complaints? >> > >> > > Due to the vagaries of the internet, I didn't see this question, but.....many > email programs AUTOMATICALLY include the post to which a reply is sent. [...] 21198 119 29_Lewis' NY Times latest column13_Yuval Warshai16_warshais@tir.com31_Tue, 30 Oct 2001 11:34:46 -0500544_iso-8859-1 As more and more people in Israel, in Palestine, and in the US start to agree on the obvious, I guess we are only waiting to see if the Bush administration will have some luck in its Afghanistan campaign, so it can free some diplomatic energy to do what has to be done. The sooner the better, because getting those religious settlers out of Elon Moreh, Beit El, and Pisgat Zeev is not going to be a task easily accomplished. Maybe only the fear of an atomic conflagration can push the world (meaning the US, the EU, and the UN) [...] 21318 54 33_Re: Lewis' NY Times latest column11_Noam Stopak26_n.stopak@scienceserver.com31_Tue, 30 Oct 2001 11:44:29 -0500553_us-ascii



Yuval Warshai wrote:

> As more and more people in Israel, in Palestine, and in the US start to > agree on the obvious, I guess we are only waiting to see if the Bush > administration will have some luck in its Afghanistan campaign, so it can > free some diplomatic energy to do what has to be done. The sooner the > better, because getting those religious settlers out of Elon Moreh, Beit El, > and Pisgat Zeev is not going to be a task easily accomplished. Maybe only > the fear of an atomic conflagration can push [...] 21373 24 25_United Palestinian Appeal13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Tue, 30 Oct 2001 13:30:22 -0500614_us-ascii Dear Chevreh-

Can anyone tell me about the United Palestinian Appeal, especially whether it really is a supporter of only humanitarian aid to non-political entities or whether it is known or suspected of also channeling funds to extremist groups?

Shalom Judy Gelman

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 21398 51 30_Re: Why Muslims commit suicide14_Holtzer Family20_carmdave@urim.org.il31_Tue, 30 Oct 2001 22:13:29 +020091_iso-8859-1 Dear complainers,

If you can't take a joke, bite me.

David Holtzer 21450 59 30_Re: Why Muslims commit suicide0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Tue, 30 Oct 2001 16:14:26 EST560_US-ASCII Nothing like Habonet for high minded discourse. A joke is a contrived story that puts someone other than ourselves in a situation we would find distasteful, or at odds with the normal flow of reality. That someone else can be just like us, or very unlike us. It matters only in terms of who hears. Black commedians say things about black people which we would not likely think of saying. Jews, Italians, arabs, women are equal in terms of being fodder for humor. Its a good thing. Healthy. (Only group I've never heard be the brunt of a joke are [...] 21510 27 30_Re: Why Muslims commit suicide13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Tue, 30 Oct 2001 16:17:39 -0500344_us-ascii Dear Dennis-

You wrote "I'm not offended by humor... except when the joke is really an excuse to be offensive, not funny." And that is exactly my position. I found this joke extremely offensive and not at all funny.

Thank you for saying "sorry" to those who feel as I do--even though you weren't the one to send it. [...] 21538 37 25_all camp ad in moment mag0_15_Marshlf@aol.com29_Tue, 30 Oct 2001 17:41:11 EST268_US-ASCII

if it gets to the point where all the camps want to put an ad together, i can help with the design/execution end of it. if someone else already has that end of it together, i don't want to step on any toes; just offering to help if needed.

lisa 21576 125 5_Hope?0_15_NEVETS2@aol.com29_Wed, 31 Oct 2001 03:31:22 EST619_UTF-8 Subj: Update #24: www.seekpeace.org Date: Tuesday, October 30, 2001 6:31:24 PM From: ELederman@uahc.org To: seekingpeace@shamash.org

What's New at seekpeace.org:

This joint publication was just added to the web site.



ISRAELI-PALESTINIAN DECLARATION

The text of a joint Israeli-Palestinian declaration follows. It was presented by Yossi Beilin at the Peace Coalition meeting in Tel-Aviv this evening. The declaration was published October 29th as an advertisement in Hebrew in Haaretz, in Arabic in Al-Ayyam and Al-Quds, and in English in the International Herald Tribune. [...] 21702 83 35_Re: Send me something plain... text7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Wed, 31 Oct 2001 16:42:47 +0200607_iso-8859-1 Send me something plain... textshalom, could you explain to me what "over htmlization" means? thanks, pearl ----- Original Message ----- From: Kaufman, Albert To: 'habonet@shamash.org' Sent: Monday, October 29, 2001 11:45 PM Subject: Send me something plain... text



Suggestion: to all list members. In many e-mail clients (Outlook, Outlook Express, etc.) there is a way to decide when you send to an address whether or not you'll be sending in plain text or HTML. Please open your address book, look at the properties you have for the Habonet address and choose "plain text". [...] 21786 24 25_United Palestinian Appeal12_Doug Greener25_ddwgreen@netvision.net.il31_Wed, 31 Oct 2001 18:09:56 +0200437_iso-8859-1 Even if I weren't positive that the UPA channels money to terrorist groups, they still shouldn't be given a cent. Money is "fungible" -- a funny word that means "one specimen or part may be used in place of another in the satisfaction of an obligation." In other words, the money that they take from the UPA for humanitarian needs frees other money in their budget for guns, bomb, knives and anthrax. Definitely a no-no. [...] 21811 35 7_Hope???12_Doug Greener25_ddwgreen@netvision.net.il31_Wed, 31 Oct 2001 18:10:33 +0200380_UTF-8 Aren't you just a bit curious why all the Palestinians signing the Declaration are members of the Arafat government or its supporters (there is of course no "opposition" in the Palestine), while the Israeli signers are all associated with the radical left opposition to the Israeli government which was overwhelmingly put into power by Israeli voters? [Long question.] [...] 21847 19 9_Re: Hope?0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Wed, 31 Oct 2001 11:43:55 EST550_US-ASCII Steve- All of these "words" are all very nice and sweet- but take them to the streets of Tulkarm, or Ramallah, or Jerusalem and Tel Aviv- I wonder what the "man-in-the-street" would say- or would he just laugh...Sue

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 21867 52 25_A more timely response...14_Holtzer Family20_carmdave@urim.org.il31_Wed, 31 Oct 2001 19:08:20 +0200403_Windows-1252 Humor usually hints at the truth with a twist for it to be successful. For example, look at Bill Cosby's classic Noah routine:

Noah - " You haven't even looked at the bottom of the Ark. Have you looked down there? No! Who's gonna clean up that mess down there?"

Ditto on the success of Jerry Seinfeld - taking everyday events and putting a twist on them to create humor. [...] 21920 80 29_RE: A more timely response...11_Batel Libes25_batel_libes@earthlink.net31_Wed, 31 Oct 2001 10:19:22 -0800502_Windows-1252 Hi Dave, You have an impressive resume. Nonetheless, I do not see the relevance between Cosby's routine, where he did not make fun of any particular people, and your biography. Also, I don't understand the relevance between the source's background and your comments. If the "joke" would have been a statement on the dire state many Muslims are in and why so many find suicide as a way out, I might be understanding. But since you presented those points as a joke, it lost my support. [...] 22001 44 9_Re: Hope?0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Wed, 31 Oct 2001 17:19:45 EST371_US-ASCII Peace. We all yearn for it. But this is not the basis for it. It presumes that the last round of concessions is now a starting point. It calls for international monitoring. It is testimony to the ability of people to say something non-controversial by painting over the issues with words that have very different meaning to either side, but appear neutral. [...] 22046 28 29_Re: United Palestinian Appeal12_David Fleiss20_dfleiss@pipeline.com31_Wed, 31 Oct 2001 17:59:47 -0500600_us-ascii It's funny -- I've heard that *exact* same argument made in support of the idea that every dollar contributed to the United Jewish Appeal frees Israeli tax dollars to be spent on settlements.

David

Doug Greener wrote: >Even if I weren't positive that the UPA channels money to terrorist groups, >they still shouldn't be given a cent. Money is "fungible" -- a funny word >that means "one specimen or part may be used in place of another in the >satisfaction of an obligation." In other words, the money that they take >from the UPA for humanitarian needs frees other money [...]