1 SHAMASH.ORG /usr/www/wwwhc/listserv/archives/habonet August 2001 2 54 36_Palestinian and Israeli Demographics17_Martin J. Goodman19_mgoodman@012.net.il30_Wed, 1 Aug 2001 11:43:23 +0200440_iso-8859-1 1 August 2001

In his article [posted by Chaver Steve in Habonet Digest 1956], Dr. Al-Magid states, "" ... the Arabs of 1948 [i.e. Israeli Arabs] may become a majority in Israel in 2035, and they will certainly be the majority in 2048 ... ""

The same allegation has been vehemently denied by politicians on the left such as Shimon Peres and vigorously asserted by right-wing politicians such as Bibi Netanyahu. [...] 57 40 16_Leopards, Oh my!17_Martin J. Goodman19_mgoodman@012.net.il30_Wed, 1 Aug 2001 14:15:44 +0200333_iso-8859-1 In Habonet Digest 1956, Chaver Steve mentions the presence of leopards in the Judean desert. Although the return of a handful of leopards in desolate, lightly populated areas is no reason for concern, it does however remind me of one of the great pleasures of being a Zionist, i.e., returning to the Hebrew language. [...] 98 155 51_NY Times OP-ED by Yossi Beilin and Yasir Abed Rabbo11_Noam Stopak26_n.stopak@scienceserver.com31_Wed, 01 Aug 2001 14:30:42 -0400426_iso-8859-1 I didn't see the declaration mentioned in the first paragraph. What did it say and who signed?

I agree with the authors that time is of the essence and that attitudes will continue to harden as the cycle of violence continues. Beyond that I'm not entirely convinced they are not deluded about the prevailing public attitudes on either side and what those attitudes mean for the possibilities for peace. [...] 254 48 55_Re: NY Times OP-ED by Yossi Beilin and Yasir Abed Rabbo0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com28_Wed, 1 Aug 2001 15:29:13 EDT350_US-ASCII In a message dated 8/1/01 2:33:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time, n.stopak@scienceserver.com writes:



> The list has been fairly quiet. Does this mean that you folks are ok with > the current state > of affairs? >

I think most people, at least the ones I know, are just incredibly depressed about the current state of affairs. 303 31 55_Re: NY Times OP-ED by Yossi Beilin and Yasir Abed Rabbo11_Noam Stopak26_n.stopak@scienceserver.com31_Wed, 01 Aug 2001 15:38:52 -0400392_us-ascii

Richardrdsmith@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 8/1/01 2:33:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > n.stopak@scienceserver.com writes: > >> The list has been fairly quiet. Does this mean that you folks are ok with >> the current state >> of affairs? > > I think most people, at least the ones I know, are just incredibly depressed > about the current state of affairs. [...] 335 61 8_to noam.0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com28_Wed, 1 Aug 2001 16:01:43 EDT535_US-ASCII I am silent not because I am ok with the current state of affairs, but rather because I have become convinced that all the settlements must go. A few months ago I posted something to that effect and was publcally called a "hothead." No apologies were issued and none are needed. The way this list has been used from time to time to as a propoganda organ for the settlers has become a complete turn off for me and for many many others. You ask to stand up and be counted.; well consider this to be my statement. I support [...] 397 36 22_The setelments must go0_16_BERNSARA@aol.com28_Wed, 1 Aug 2001 17:22:01 EDT296_US-ASCII I agree the settlments must go. However that alone will not bring peace. It will however improve our defensive ability and save millions of shekels. Also the hate teachings in the school books (both Arab and Jewish) must also go. Then maybe my grandkids will see a peaceful Israel Baruch 434 18 16_quiet list......14_Holtzer Family20_carmdave@urim.org.il30_Thu, 2 Aug 2001 14:47:37 +0200378_iso-8859-1 Psst - this is vacation time.

Dave

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 453 20 36_Palestinian and Israeli Demographics14_Barry Grushkin26_103640.2135@compuserve.com30_Thu, 2 Aug 2001 10:06:28 -0400556_us-ascii Population growth rates on average are inversely related to economic conditions. This may be a good argument for giving more opportunity of Israeli Arabs, if not the West Bank and Gaza Arabs as well.

Barry Grushkin

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 474 183 24_Re: Demography of Israel17_Rena Cheskis-Gold16_renacg@ntplx.net31_Thu, 02 Aug 2001 14:11:28 -0400536_us-ascii Dear All,

OK, I hate to have to dust off my demographic methods books, but I just wanted to give some insight into the demographic debate. First, for those who are seriously interested in finding out the true numbers, check out israel's Central Bureau of Statistic's website www.cbs.gov.il. (in both English and very tiny Hebrew letters.) You could certainly try the Dept. of Demography at the Hebrew U., also, which I didn't do. If you don't want to read a bunch of numbers, just skip to the last line of my note. [...] 658 24 14_Phil Klutznick0_18_Rachelbern@aol.com29_Thu, 02 Aug 2001 15:20:57 EDT529_ISO-8859-1 Chevreh:

I've just jumping into the middle of the creation of an exhibition being put together by the B'Nai B'rith Museum in D.C. about Philip Klutznick's work in the Jewish community, American politics, war/post war housing, BBYO, the UN, Ashdod, etc. (and with him there appear to be many , many "etc."s!) I'm hoping there are some folks in the vast Habonetwork who might have come in contact with him in some context between about 1935 and 1999? If so, please contact me off-list at rachelbern@aol.com. [...] 683 128 11_Monthly FAQ12_Jennifer Kay19_kay@elvis.rowan.edu31_Fri, 03 Aug 2001 02:32:03 -0400421_- Actually-from:BCooper@descartes.com

Hi Chevre,

Here is a reminder of the "essential" commands that you can use to configure your subscription to Habonet. I will post this monthly from now on. Please note -- The address for commands is: listproc@shamash.org whereas the address for posts to the list is: habonet@shamash.org If you need any help with any of it, send me an email: BCooper@descartes.com [...] 812 50 9_Textbooks17_Martin J. Goodman19_mgoodman@012.net.il30_Thu, 2 Aug 2001 10:39:08 +0200484_iso-8859-1 2 August 2001

In Habonet Digest 1957, Baruch writes, "" ... the hate teachings in the school books (both Arab and Jewish) must also go .... ""

I have not personally seen either Palestinian or Israeli school texts. However, I am aware that starting with the Rabin government in the early 90's, Israeli texts were substantially changed to ready Israeli children to the ideas of territorial concession and coexistence with an independent Palestinian state. [...] 863 42 25_Re: settlement simplicity0_15_NEVETS2@aol.com28_Fri, 3 Aug 2001 09:47:40 EDT334_US-ASCII

In a message dated 8/2/01 12:55:13 AM, Chaver Sam (Smfgrappa@aol.com) writes:

<< The cycle of violence can only be broken by Israel unilaterally giving up most if not all of the settlements. >>

The cycle of violence can be broken by Israel unilaterally giving up most if not all of the settlements [...] 906 31 16_: Phil Klutznick12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Fri, 03 Aug 2001 18:42:02 +0200442_us-ascii Rachel, I may be able to help with an old WZO letterhead but it will take me some time (short.)

Shabbat Shalom Amnon

From: Rachelbern@aol.com Subject: Phil Klutznick

Also for the exhibition, can anyone help me locate older letterhead from WZO and AJC for a section displaying logos of the first Jewish organizations to take part in the Conference of Presidents of Major Jewish Organizations? Thanks, Rachel [...] 938 75 43_COEJL Washington Representative job opening0_15_NEVETS2@aol.com28_Fri, 3 Aug 2001 12:39:10 EDT635_US-ASCII PLEASE CIRCULATE

JOB OPENING: Washington Representative Coalition on the Environment and Jewish Life

COEJL is seeking an experienced individual to serve as its first permanent full time Washington Representative. Based in New York City, COEJL is the national environmental organization of the American Jewish community. We embrace 29 national Jewish organizations and have 13 Regional Affiliates around North America, five of them staffed. This new position will be offered to an individual who can provide leadership that will enable COEJL to successfully expand our public policy and organizing capacity. [...] 1014 70 12_Re: to noam.0_18_DLerner569@aol.com28_Fri, 3 Aug 2001 15:41:27 EDT521_US-ASCII Sam, I treasure you, as you know. Your CD is Mary's constant companion.

As for giving up the settlements. It implies that if we leave them alone they'll leave us alone. That runs counter to whatever evidence is out there and counter to what I think is at least one of the rationales for the settlements in the first place. Arab countries must be open to have Jewish residents, and Israel must be open to and have Arab residents. Real peace can only come with real knowledge of people as individuals. [...] 1085 98 33_scholarship opportunity for women0_15_DebALev@aol.com28_Fri, 3 Aug 2001 22:17:14 EDT543_US-ASCII FYI

********************* Women graduate students from countries outside the United States are invited to apply for a fellowship from the American Association of University Women (AAUW) Educational Foundation for study or research in the United States. International Fellowships are available to women who are not American citizens or permanent residents. Of the 58 fellowships awarded, six are available to members of the International Federation of University Women for graduate study in a country other than their own. [...] 1184 45 17_More Demographics17_Martin J. Goodman19_mgoodman@012.net.il30_Sat, 4 Aug 2001 14:53:02 +0200604_iso-8859-1 4 August 2001

Thank you Rena for posting the website address of the Lishkat HaStatistika, the Israeli Office of Statistics.

I obtained the following data from the website:

Year Average Annual Population Increase* Jews Arabs and Others

1948-50 9.2 3.6 1951-71 3.0 4.5 1972-82 2.2 3.7 1983-89 1.5 3.0 1990-95 3.4 4.1

* The preceding statistics apply strictly to the state of Israel and do not include Palestinians in the West Bank, Gaza, and Golan territories. The statistics also do not include Palestinians in the portion of Jerusalem captured in 1967. [...] 1230 33 21_Re: More Demographics0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com28_Sat, 4 Aug 2001 10:05:00 EDT596_US-ASCII In a message dated 8/4/01 7:57:26 AM Eastern Daylight Time, mgoodman@012.net.il writes:

<< 1948-50 9.2 3.6 1951-71 3.0 4.5 1972-82 2.2 3.7 1983-89 1.5 3.0 1990-95 3.4 4.1



I havetaken the liberty to assume that we can use the 90-95 statistics and project them for the next thirty five years. There will be 15 million Jews and about 4 million Arabs and others. There will be somewhat more traffic on the Ayalon and housing costs may increase somewhat. (somewhat alot.) but if we stick to the green line we will still have a very Jewish state. Keep the west bank [...] 1264 92 17_to Sam from Steve11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com30_Sat, 4 Aug 2001 09:21:31 -0700437_US-ASCII

Sam

I just don't get how intelligent people can ignore (or be blind to) the fact that Jews could give the Arabs EVERYTHING except for Kikar Dizengoff, and that would still not do it for them until every last Jew died or moved away. Please please explain the logical steps to me as to how I am missing the key principle to your no-fail peace plan. It boggles my mind. Just write s-l-o-w-l-y, so I can follow. [...] 1357 94 3_Sam11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com30_Sat, 4 Aug 2001 09:31:32 -0700592_US-ASCII

p.s.

I am not a promulgator of the settlements. I admire some of what they are about, and don't particularly identify with other stuff. What's left, I sometimes abhor. But how their disappearance will lead to world peace somehow still eludes me. Please help.

signed,

Desperate in California

pps

I don't think you are a hothead. -----Original Message----- From: owner-habonet@shamash.org [mailto:owner-habonet@shamash.org]On Behalf Of Smfgrappa@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2001 1:02 PM To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: to noam. [...] 1452 43 18_RE: Jerusalem site11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com30_Sat, 4 Aug 2001 09:31:33 -0700489_iso-8859-1 Great idea!

-----Original Message----- From: owner-habonet@shamash.org [mailto:owner-habonet@shamash.org]On Behalf Of DLerner569@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2001 8:27 AM To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: Re: Jerusalem site



I agree with your feeling, though the Nuremburg image seems inappropriate.

Many on Habonet seem to grasp an article or an image and then use that to justify some generalization. I think I'm about to do the same thing. [...] 1496 101 21_Re: to Sam from Steve0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com28_Sat, 4 Aug 2001 14:50:15 EDT377_US-ASCII

OK

In a message dated 8/4/01 12:19:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com writes:

<< Sam

I just don't get how intelligent people can ignore (or be blind to) the fact that Jews could give the Arabs EVERYTHING except for Kikar Dizengoff, and that would still not do it for them until every last Jew died or moved away. [...] 1598 68 21_Re: to Sam from Steve0_18_DLerner569@aol.com28_Sat, 4 Aug 2001 16:18:11 EDT401_US-ASCII Some of the problem is frequently articulated by Palestinian spokespersons -- (I paraphrase) "we cannot accept what the Israelis are willing to give us." I uderstand this from my work with deprived communities to mean, that what one party gives to another is charity and holds the receiver in a dependent position. It implies that the giver can also take back or withhold in the future. [...] 1667 73 39_Prof. Barry Rubin, notes on Middle East7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il30_Sun, 5 Aug 2001 02:06:56 +0300541_iso-8859-1 > In light of recent discussion I thought this letter might be of interest to Habonet subscribers. Prof.Rubin's email addresses are below.

> Dear Friends: Since David Rier quoted me (correctly) I > thought I might add a couple of points: > The best thing to do about media coverage of Israel > nowadays is to ignore it. I don't say this lightly but > being in the US for an extended period on sabbatical > for the first time in 12 years I am amazed at how > inaccurate the coverage has become in the last two > months [...] 1741 24 16_More Sams Needed12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Sun, 05 Aug 2001 11:04:23 +0200478_us-ascii Dear Sam, you wrote

>1] I hope that was simple and easy to follow. / It was.

>2] Blessed be the wise. / You are. > >Amnon



------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 1766 63 21_Yet More Demographics17_Martin J. Goodman19_mgoodman@012.net.il30_Sun, 5 Aug 2001 10:35:35 +0200634_iso-8859-1 5 August 2001

Shalom Sam:

In your comments to my posting regarding demographics, you stated, "" ... we can use the 90-95 statistics and project them for the next thirty five years. There will be 15 million Jews and about 4 million Arabs and others. ""

Although the Arab population growth rate for 1990-95 (4.1%) is fairly representative of the growth rate in previous years, the Jewish population growth rate for 1990-95 (3.4%) is substantially higher than the preceding 18 years of survey data, probably because of the wave of immigration from the former Soviet Union. That wave having subsided, [...] 1830 39 16_Thank you Amnon.0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com28_Sun, 5 Aug 2001 10:59:25 EDT537_US-ASCII Dear Amnon Thank you so much for you blessing. So many of your former chanichim wait for your approval rebe. I just came back from California where I visted with Jon Zatkin and Judy Zatkin ( also Marc Margolis was hanging with us but you may not know him. ) Two of our kids listened as we talked about Israel and the "Matzav" and Jonny and I kept bringing your name up. (must have been those good sichot on workshop ) So there you were as a spiritual presence in the hills of Sanoma thousands of miles away from Jerusalem. [...] 1870 54 37_Yet More Demographics I (long story )0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com28_Sun, 5 Aug 2001 11:26:23 EDT580_US-ASCII The first trick to turn Marty is to get to know the Israeli Arab Community a little better and then maybe you would not be given to such desparate thoughts. While the intfada has certainly not helped relations between Arabs and Israelis within the green line, private talks with Israeli Arabs demonstates a feeling considerably more complex than hostility. Many of them have soaked up large parts of Israeli culture and on lots of levels want more inclusion. When I was last in Israel, I stopped for a cafe hafouch at a miznon near hadera. Although the owner wore a [...] 1925 24 38_Yet More Demographics II (short story)0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com28_Sun, 5 Aug 2001 11:32:08 EDT552_US-ASCII If we want to change the demographics within the Green line lets just stop building hitnachluot over the green line and build yishuvim with in the green line. And lets do it in the context of developing both the Jewish and Arab sectors so everyone gets along and walks away happy. If we stop wasting 10s of billions of dollars on the west bank and gaza and invest that money in the Galil and the negev, we can work miracles. It sure beats the offensive suggestion of moving a million Israeli citzens out of theit homes and into exile.. I [...] 1950 139 33_=?iso-8859-1?B?4fLw6envOiBTYW0=?=8_ericmoli25_ericmoli@netvision.net.il30_Sun, 5 Aug 2001 23:44:04 +0200583_iso-8859-1 Dear Steve,

Although I'm new to the habonet program, I have been following the arguments, for and against the settlements in a general way. Having lived in Israel for nearly 50 years (came on the 2nd Workshop in 1952) my conclusions are the following: To make an Arab respect you you have to show him respect, but, even more important, to show him and prove to him, by what ever means you have your determination to stick to your beliefs. By showing him your sincere determination in rebuilding the Land of Israel is you are showing him STRENGTH of CHARACTER, [...] 2090 167 15_Grim, grim grim0_15_NEVETS2@aol.com28_Sun, 5 Aug 2001 18:36:38 EDT608_UTF-8 Chevre, Shalom

The following interview says it all for me. We're not just fighting the Palestinians. We still have to contend with the entire Arab world in the Middle East. The Jewish return to Israel is not a forgone conclusion to them.

No matter that the Palestinians could have reached a reasonable (from our Israeli perspective) agreement with Israel, as long as they are willing to hold out for "everything" and fight and die for it, their struggle continues to gather massive support from the "man and woman on the street" in all Arab countries and it puts tremendous pressure [...] 2258 35 48_=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=E1=F2=F0=E9=E9=EF:=20Sam?=0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com28_Sun, 5 Aug 2001 18:39:11 EDT624_US-ASCII In a message dated 8/5/01 4:44:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ericmoli@netvision.net.il writes:

<< By showing him your sincere determination in rebuilding the Land of Israel is you are showing him STRENGTH of CHARACTER, which could make him hisitate before he attempts to attack you. >>



You make them hesitate in attacking you only by maintaining a security. If they can't they won't. Anything else is naive. Trying to hold on to all these settlements leaves us with out borders we can defend and leaves us open to the suicide bombers. Redeploying to borders we can defend, take a way from [...] 2294 102 48_=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=E1=F2=F0=E9=E9=EF:=20Sam?=0_18_DLerner569@aol.com28_Mon, 6 Aug 2001 11:20:53 EDT601_US-ASCII What political reasons? Domestic or international? Forgive my ignorance, but I thought the settlements had mutiple purposes: - to provide an early warning system of attack, i.e. act as a front line. - to put pressure on the arabs to negotiate land for peace - inceasing settlements are an implied threat of incorporation of portions of the captured territories into the State. - ease internal Israel settlement pressures created in part by soviet immigration. - as a sop to the religious right, in their quest for a retun to the greatest areal extent of Jewish occupation of the land. - [...] 2397 66 48_=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=E1=F2=F0=E9=E9=EF:=20Sam?=0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com28_Mon, 6 Aug 2001 11:56:21 EDT544_US-ASCII In a message dated 8/6/01 11:22:21 AM Eastern Daylight Time, DLerner569@aol.com writes:



> I thought the settlements had mutiple purposes: ... > > - to put pressure on the arabs to negotiate land for peace - ... > > They are the ones at risk. Peace for the whole must be > certain before bargains are made with the lives of those sent to the > front... > > If the point of the settlements was to put pressure on the Arabs to > negotiate then why were the settlements expanded so much after the Oslo > Agreement? > > [...] 2464 44 48_=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=E1=F2=F0=E9=E9=EF:=20Sam?=0_18_DLerner569@aol.com28_Mon, 6 Aug 2001 12:49:56 EDT479_US-ASCII Were these volunteer offered material benefits and incentives for volunteering?

As for expansion after the Oslo accords, I thought that additions were made to existing settlements within "planned" boundaries, but no settlements were developed. If that was in fact the case, I don't see the contradiction. Epansion or addition, in either case it is reality on the ground and would keep pressure on the other side to reach a settlement (obviously, no pun intended). 2509 25 23_Re: my personal protest0_18_Rachelbern@aol.com29_Mon, 06 Aug 2001 13:32:40 EDT391_ISO-8859-1 Of course it would wonderful if the 50th Anniversary of Workshop was held in Israel, perhaps including a series of "on site" celebrations by each kvutzah at the kibbutz where their year was spent.

And we could pay for everyone's airline tickets, food, and lodging by holding a neshef in every city in the US and Israel with at least 20 current or former Workshoppers. [...] 2535 80 16_Love thy Brother0_18_DLerner569@aol.com28_Mon, 6 Aug 2001 13:32:40 EDT579_US-ASCII

I have authored several messages tied to Genesis Chapter 21 and the casting out of Hagar and Ishmael with provisions of bread and water. I see this as the root cause of a schism between Palestinian and Jew. The psychological impact of such a trauma is enormous. It is (psychologically) easy for us to wear the birthright from Abraham, but what of our half-brothers. In the adjacent sections of the Torah, Abraham gives the Philistines 7 ewes to prove his claim to the well at Ber Sheva, and pays the Hittites 400 Shekles of silver for the burying place for [...] 2616 115 6_peace?16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Mon, 06 Aug 2001 13:44:38 -0400664_us-ascii The following letter to the editor of the Forward is by Jeffry Mallow, president of LZA. In it he gives perspective to the revisionist representations of Robert Malloy.







> Clinton aide Robert Malley and his Palestinian colleague Hussein Agha have provided an important contribution to the > Mideast debate. Their analysis of Camp David and Taba, the most sympathetic to the Palestinians, demonstrates > conclusively the asymmetry of the mistakes made by the various sides. A careful reading of their deconstruction > shows that Arafat failed to be ready for negotiations at Camp David, failed to make any counter offers [...] 2732 35 18_Stem Cell Research14_Holtzer Family20_carmdave@urim.org.il30_Mon, 6 Aug 2001 22:23:25 +0200480_Windows-1252 Dear Habonetters,

Please help us by writing/emailing/calling your representatives/senators and the president to voice your support for federal funding for stem cell research.

As some of you know, our son, Lotan, was diagnosed with juvenile diabetes during his army service. Stem cell research looks to be the best bet for a permanent cure for diabetes, as well as other terrible conditions like Parkinsons, Alzheimers, heart disease, strokes, etc. [...] 2768 797 41_TNR Online | Times Bomb by Robert Satloff16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Mon, 06 Aug 2001 15:35:58 -0400378_us-ascii This piece appears in this week's New Republic. It adds nuance to the recent revisionism of Deborah Sontag and Robert Malloy. One point reported only by the Jerusalem Reports magazine (to my reading, at least) is that the PA's chief negotiators--Saeb Erekat and Abu Mazen--were both excluded, at Arafat's orders, from the substantive Camp David and Taba sessions. [...] 3566 33 49_Re: 50th anniversary of the Workshop-another idea0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com28_Mon, 6 Aug 2001 16:16:16 EDT579_US-ASCII Dear Jessica- I am curretnly working on the 40th Anniversary World Tour of the film, Exodus . Along with screenings all over the world,we are planning a unique clelbration next year for Yom Atzmaut which will celebrate the heroes of the ships of Aliyha Bet. I have found out a lot about Habonim's participation as crewmembers on these ships- and about Habonim chevre who gave their lives- Did you know that Bill Bernstein- the only person killed by the British on the Exodus itself was from Habonim in San Francisco? At any rate- we are planning a "flotilla" to go [...] 3600 27 9_Crossfire11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org30_Mon, 6 Aug 2001 16:36:03 +0100355_us-ascii

> FYI - 8.6.01 > > For your Information > > 6 August 2001 > > Consul General Pinkas to appear tonight on CNN's Crossfire > > Consul General Alon Pinkas will be appearing tonight on CNN's Crossfire in > a debate with the Palestinian representative in Washington DC, Hassan > Abdul Rachman. Crossfire airs on CNN at 7:30pm. (E.S.T.) > [...] 3628 24 49_Re: 50th anniversary of the Workshop-another idea12_Doug Greener25_ddwgreen@netvision.net.il30_Tue, 7 Aug 2001 18:42:18 +0300331_iso-8859-1 There have been many times that I receive Habonet messages referring to subjects or someone else's message - when I have not received the original message. For example, there seems to be a discussion now about the 50th anniversary of the Workshop based on someone's first throwing out the idea - which I never got. [...] 3653 100 20_Re: Love thy Brother13_aubrey jasper22_aubreyjasper@yahoo.com36_Tue, 7 Aug 2001 18:48:41 -0700 (PDT)420_us-ascii Dennis,

Your Genesis-based construct is interesting and may have merit. Alas, all Arabs, "Palestinian" and otherwise, with whom I have discussed peace prospects, from the 1960's to now, have believed that the very existence of Israel is a "human rights abuse" perpetrated against them by the international Zionist conspiracy and by the Great Satan ( the current term), the United States of America. [...] 3754 591 37_Love Thy Brother or Help me out here.12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Wed, 08 Aug 2001 20:47:21 +0200576_us-ascii Coincidences, coincidences, who knows knows maybe they are pre-ordained. I'm working now on a chapter about the Akedah. It's mostly centered on poetry but prose and even an occasional essay fills in the many gaps in the the horrific constitutive myth of our people. One such essay is by A. B. Yehoshua which I'm sending along as an attachment. It deals, albeit via lit/crit with your concern and mine. To relate more directly however to your question if we could find a way to bring the family back together I want to share another piece of Yehoshua 's this one [...] 4346 113 41_Re: Love Thy Brother or Help me out here.0_14_LHIAM1@aol.com28_Wed, 8 Aug 2001 13:55:17 EDT580_ISO-8859-1 Dear All, It appears to me that the long and close association with the British during the mandate has possibly infected many Zionists with their then accepted concept of "White Man's Burden" ... how very superior of us to assume that any Moslem, Christian, Palestinian or other variation of Arab would ever be even a bit interested in "coming back to the tribe". What parts of his or her history, culture, God, traditions would you have him determine is worth abandoning so that he can have the wonderful privelige of being one of the chosen. If you are so eager [...] 4460 160 37_=?iso-8859-1?B?UkU6IOHy8Onp7zogU2Ft?=11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com30_Wed, 8 Aug 2001 14:39:39 -0700698_iso-8859-1 Dear Sam

Great letter

With you 10000 %

All the best

Steve

-----Original Message----- From: owner-habonet@shamash.org [mailto:owner-habonet@shamash.org]On Behalf Of ericmoli Sent: Sunday, August 05, 2001 2:44 PM To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: áňđééď: Sam



Dear Steve,

Although I'm new to the habonet program, I have been following the arguments, for and against the settlements in a general way. Having lived in Israel for nearly 50 years (came on the 2nd Workshop in 1952) my conclusions are the following: To make an Arab respect you you have to show him respect, but, even more important, to show him and prove to him, by [...] 4621 43 42_RE: Yet More Demographics II (short story)11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com30_Wed, 8 Aug 2001 14:39:40 -0700721_us-ascii Sometimes simple solutions are simple. But don't give up. Hope springs eternal, and a workable solution may someday, God willing, emerge even from simple attempts.

Steve

-----Original Message----- From: owner-habonet@shamash.org [mailto:owner-habonet@shamash.org]On Behalf Of Smfgrappa@aol.com Sent: Sunday, August 05, 2001 8:32 AM To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: Yet More Demographics II (short story)



If we want to change the demographics within the Green line lets just stop building hitnachluot over the green line and build yishuvim with in the green line. And lets do it in the context of developing both the Jewish and Arab sectors so everyone gets along and walks away [...] 4665 88 28_One response to Dave Holtzer0_15_DebALev@aol.com28_Wed, 8 Aug 2001 22:08:25 EDT326_US-ASCII Dave, as we have discussed this privately, you know that I am also passionately in favor of stem cell research. It is already having results with lymphoma, and as a diabetic myself, and a sister of one, I have a vested interest as well.

I just received this from the listserv Jewish Women Leaders Online: [...] 4754 31 48_=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=E1=F2=F0=E9=E9=EF:=20Sam?=0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com28_Wed, 8 Aug 2001 22:23:32 EDT575_US-ASCII In a message dated 8/8/01 5:38:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com writes:

<< Dear Sam

Great letter

With you 10000 %

All the best

Steve >> Thanks Steve....hope to see you eventually Sam

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 4786 44 41_Re: Love Thy Brother or Help me out here.0_18_DLerner569@aol.com28_Wed, 8 Aug 2001 23:24:50 EDT584_US-ASCII I don't have an expectation or presumption about how the Palestinians (individually or collectively) would react to a pronouncement on this subject. Certainly the Pope did not receive unanimous positive response to his various requests for forgiveness of Catholics various trespasses. Then too, the current vogue for Chistians indentifying themselves as a branch of Judaism doesn't give me a warm cuddly feeling, but an acknowledgement of our filial relationship accompanied by the just treatment you suggest, might be a meaningful start to a dialogue. Then who knows. Dennis 4831 96 10_Separation17_Martin J. Goodman19_mgoodman@012.net.il30_Thu, 9 Aug 2001 14:56:20 +0200673_iso-8859-1 9 August 2001

Apropos to recent thread on Habonet regarding defusing the conflict with the Palestinians by embracing them as brothers/sisters, I'd like to relate my experience working with Palestinians on the Ben Gurion Airport expansion project.

The Ben Gurion airport employs a large number of laborers including Romanians, Turks, Palestinians (and a relatively small number of Jews). Up to about a year ago, the Palestinian laborers generally were from the West Bank and Gaza Territories and were transported by their employers in and out of Israel on a daily basis. However, after the events of last September-October, contractors working [...] 4928 46 14_Re: Separation0_18_DLerner569@aol.com28_Thu, 9 Aug 2001 09:14:15 EDT554_US-ASCII We talk about the Palestinian's attitude toward us, but I am really focused on our attitude toward them. Despite the stories I have heard from arab friends here in the states - that it was Issac that was sent into the desert to die - I don't think it is for the disenfranchised part of the family to make the initial move toward reconciliation, nor should there be an expectation of a prompt positive response from our step brothers. Even "step brothers" is pejorative. This pie in the sky notion may not be "The" answer, but if we look to [...] 4975 60 14_Re: Separation0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com28_Thu, 9 Aug 2001 10:49:38 EDT309_US-ASCII In a message dated 8/9/01 6:14:58 AM Pacific Daylight Time, DLerner569@aol.com writes:



> This pie in the sky notion may not be "The" answer, > but if we look to the psychology and behavior of families, I think that we > can find much that will be of use in our quest for peace. > [...] 5036 27 52_Re: What to call our relationship - Brothers/Cousins0_13_JLCAA@aol.com28_Thu, 9 Aug 2001 10:50:15 EDT448_US-ASCII Many years ago (1969 perhaps), while a student at Hebrew University, I wrote an open letter to Fatah in the name of the National Union of Israel Students. The letter appeared in New Outlook Magazine, calling for a dialogue. Much to our surprise, we received a response (postmarked from Haifa!), titled "To the Sons Of My Accursed Enemies." New Outlook gave me 24 hour to write a response which I did togther with my friend Tzvi Bisk. [...] 5064 29 52_Re: What to call our relationship - Brothers/Cousins0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Thu, 09 Aug 2001 14:56:18 EDT461_ISO-8859-1 Perhaps, God and Abraham got it right. Get out of here, and make your own way. And as an earlier response suggested, you go your way I'll go mine - choose your direction. Unfortunately, either way you look at it, we seem both inextricably tied to the same space.

Despite the suggestion that we nuc the bastards, Killing the arabs or be killed by the arabs does not sound like a viable, let alone sane, option. If its not that, then what. [...] 5094 34 14_Marty Goodman.0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com28_Thu, 9 Aug 2001 16:14:57 EDT609_US-ASCII Marty Goodman has been on Habonet seriously suggesting that a transfer of population should include all one million Israeli Arabs. First he did a little pocket calulator demographics (which was later shown to be faulty by Rena ) to show they would out number the Jews by 2035. Now he is suggesting that because he has had unplesent interactions as construction inspector with Israeli Arabs at Ben Gurion Airport this is the reason that we shoud proceed with expelling one million Israeli citizens from Israel. I am stunned to read these kind of extreme poorly thought out and outright dangerous [...] 5129 19 14_Marty Goodman.0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com28_Thu, 9 Aug 2001 16:30:50 EDT302_US-ASCII I want to add that I have just been following the incident in Jerusalem. We are in a very tough situation and these hard sad hard times. These are the times that we are most in pain and most vulnerable to manipulation. I hope we can as a group rise to the occasion and make wise choices. [...] 5149 19 14_Haaretz online13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Thu, 09 Aug 2001 17:27:10 -0400492_us-ascii Dear Chevre- Has any oe else been having trouble getting onto Haaretz online? I get a notice that I am forbidden to enter the site. Any idea why? Judy Gelman

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 5169 16 18_Re: Haaretz online0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com28_Thu, 9 Aug 2001 19:03:42 EDT372_US-ASCII Try entering from kolisrael.com.- sue

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 5186 25 18_Re: Haaretz online8_Pristoop22_cpristoo@mail.bcpl.net31_Thu, 09 Aug 2001 20:36:31 -0400319_us-ascii I used to receive it daily in my inbox. It suddenly stopped coming after 7/30/01. Allan Pristoop

At 05:27 PM 8/9/01 -0400, you wrote: >Dear Chevre- >Has any oe else been having trouble getting onto Haaretz online? I get a >notice that I am forbidden to enter the site. Any idea why? >Judy Gelman > [...] 5212 29 29_Re: American stores in Israel14_Tana Hemingway16_tanah@zianet.com31_Thu, 09 Aug 2001 15:16:50 -0600566_us-ascii Maybe a guarded copy of your list shouild be circulated among those of us who live in America, so that we can patronize those stores? Or would they be afraid of negative responses if certain factions got hold of the list??? Tanah

At 02:00 PM 7/27/01 -0400, you wrote: >Shabbat Shalom- >I am trying to make a list of American stores and companies that have >retail outlets and sell in Israel- including retaurants, clothing, office >supplies, etc...Any help would be geatly appreciated- You can email me >privately at Liberhawke@aol.com- susie > [...] 5242 61 32_Galil needs a database developer0_15_NEVETS2@aol.com28_Thu, 9 Aug 2001 22:42:41 EDT485_US-ASCII Chevre, Shalom

Camp Galil uses a sophisticated homemade registration database that was unfortunately built on an AppleWorks base. It keeps track of lots of data on each chanich/a that registers and generates critical registration and financial reports for the Camp Committee. What it does, it does really well.

Unfortunately, we've grown to the point where we need to add functionality but have run out of room on AppleWorks. (256 field limit per database) [...] 5304 33 18_Re: Haaretz online11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org30_Thu, 9 Aug 2001 22:14:46 +0100479_us-ascii They updated the site. The new URL is: http://www.haaretzdaily.com This is for the English site.





---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: Judith Gelman Reply-To: habonet@shamash.org Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 17:27:10 -0400

>Dear Chevre- >Has any oe else been having trouble getting onto Haaretz online? I get a >notice that I am forbidden to enter the site. Any idea why? >Judy Gelman > > > [...] 5338 363 5_Press11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org30_Thu, 9 Aug 2001 22:25:27 +0100526_ISO-8859-1

For those of you who are interested. Rozzie



HonestReporting Communique

09 August 2001



"TERROR IN JERUSALEM"



* * *



Dear HonestReporting Member,



As we go to press, the victims of the Jerusalem bombing today are still

being identified and prepared for burial.



HonestReporting shares shock, rage, and profound sadness with the

families of the bombing victims, and with all the people of Israel. [...] 5702 30 18_Re: Haaretz online11_Batel Libes25_batel_libes@earthlink.net30_Thu, 9 Aug 2001 21:53:52 -0700473_iso-8859-1 test your security settings and see if you have the "cookies" enabled or the right security settings. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Judith Gelman" To: "habonet" Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2001 2:27 PM Subject: Haaretz online



> Dear Chevre- > Has any oe else been having trouble getting onto Haaretz online? I get a > notice that I am forbidden to enter the site. Any idea why? > Judy Gelman > > [...] 5733 109 27_Demographics and Separation17_Martin J. Goodman19_mgoodman@012.net.il31_Fri, 10 Aug 2001 14:27:30 +0200355_iso-8859-1 10 August 2001

In a posting in Habonet Digest 1965, Sam makes a number of comments regarding my recent postings regarding Demographics and Separation. The following posting discusses some of these comments.

1. Sam writes that I have suggested that "" a transfer of population should include all one million Israeli Arabs. "" [...] 5843 92 36_Re: Galil needs a database developer11_David Ferri26_david-ferri@wordmaster.com31_Fri, 10 Aug 2001 09:07:25 -0500813_us-ascii Hi Steve,

I'll post your request to the Apple Solutions Experts listserve and have respondents contact you directly.

Regards, David Ferri President Word Master, Inc. 320 Earls Ct. Deerfield, IL 60015 Ph: 847-948-9600 Fax: 847-948-9617 mailto:david-ferri@wordmaster.com Developers, come register in our consultants database on our Home Page at: http://www.wordmaster.com ==================================================================

At 22:42 -0400 08/09/2001, NEVETS2@aol.com wrote: >Chevre, Shalom > >Camp Galil uses a sophisticated homemade registration database that was >unfortunately built on an AppleWorks base. It keeps track of lots of data on >each chanich/a that registers and generates critical registration and >financial reports for the Camp Committee. What it [...] 5936 50 45_=?iso-8859-1?B?4fLw6envOiDh8vDp6e86IFNhbQ==?=8_ericmoli25_ericmoli@netvision.net.il31_Fri, 10 Aug 2001 17:48:20 +0200631_iso-8859-1

----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, August 06, 2001 12:39 AM Subject: Re: áňđééď: Sam



> In a message dated 8/5/01 4:44:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > ericmoli@netvision.net.il writes: > > << By > showing him your sincere determination in rebuilding the Land of Israel is > you are showing him STRENGTH of CHARACTER, which could make him hisitate > before he attempts to attack you. >> > > > You make them hesitate in attacking you only by maintaining a security. If > they can't they won't. Anything else is naive. Trying to hold on [...] 5987 24 88_=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=E1=F2=F0=E9=E9=EF:=20=E1=F2=F0=E9=E9=EF:=20?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Sam?=0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com29_Fri, 10 Aug 2001 11:09:26 EDT324_US-ASCII In a message dated 8/10/01 10:49:14 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ericmoli@netvision.net.il writes:

<< > > << By > showing him your sincere determination in rebuilding the Land of Israel is > you are showing him STRENGTH of CHARACTER, which could make him hisitate > before he attempts to attack you. >> >> [...] 6012 38 31_Re: Demographics and Separation0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com29_Fri, 10 Aug 2001 11:24:03 EDT575_US-ASCII In a message dated 8/10/01 7:28:46 AM Eastern Daylight Time, mgoodman@012.net.il writes:

<< For example, M.K. Michal Eitan of Likud, M.K. Haim Ramon of Labor, and M.K. Ron Cohen of Meretz, all support unilateral separation in one form or another.

But only Marty Goodman has taken that separation to include a transfer of Israeli Arabs from their homes in Israel to the West Bank and Gaza. If I am wrong about that give me a quote. If there are lots of other people who agree with Doug and Marty that Israel should find a way of getting rid of its [...] 6051 99 45_=?iso-8859-1?B?4fLw6envOiDh8vDp6e86IFNhbQ==?=8_ericmoli25_ericmoli@netvision.net.il31_Fri, 10 Aug 2001 18:46:58 +0200636_iso-8859-1 Dear Sam,

Thank you for responding to my letter. I'm afraid that I did not express myself articularly enough, so, hopefully I'll be clearer in expressing myself, this time.

I've come to feel that our situation revolves around idealogy and politics. In the beg. of the re-establisment of the State of Israel, the government, lead by David Ben Gurion, was for strenghting our strategic positions by placing kibbutzing and moshavim near Arab villages. This, of course, was of vital importance in enhancing our internal security and populating the country in and around the cities and towns. This went hand in [...] 6151 53 107_=?iso-8859-1?B?4fLw6envOiA1MHRoIGFubml2ZXJzYXJ5IG9mIHRoZSBXb3Jrc2hvcC1h?= =?iso-8859-1?B?bm90aGVyIGlkZWE=?=8_ericmoli25_ericmoli@netvision.net.il31_Sat, 11 Aug 2001 00:11:57 +0200562_iso-8859-1 Dear Trudy,

Although we don't know one another, we seem to have a couple of things in common. One: we have been a part of Habonim. Two: I was in the 2nd Workshop, which one were you? And Three: like you, I too received the information about plans to celebrate the 50th anniversary of the Workshop as a complete surprise. Next year, our group, the 2nd Workshop (1952) is planning on celebrating its 50th reunion, so, in the beg. I was a bit confused until I cleared the fog in my brain. Anyway, the idea of celebrating the 50th anniversary [...] 6205 30 49_Re: 50th anniversary of the Workshop-another idea0_13_VFINK@aol.com29_Fri, 10 Aug 2001 18:08:36 EDT97_US-ASCII Yes. It happens frequently. How does one notify Habonet about a change in email address? 6236 104 34_Demographics Statistics and Poetry12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Sat, 11 Aug 2001 10:47:41 +0200612_us-ascii Sam and Marty I know that both of you go for Hebrew Poetry. The following is from an article by Ruth Kartun Blum. This is a "make you feel good" Shabbat read.

Amnon



306 RUTH KARTUN-BLUM Poets view the Akedah as a pretense. Avidan even mocks the victims. The ironic effects are achieved by means of the tensions between the current levels of the language (army slang, psychological jargon, and journalistic writing) and the original text. That is true of Avidan even more than of Amichai. Both provocatively trivialize the story by bringing down the level of the language. The [...] 6341 54 39_Nationalistic Aspirations and Concensus17_Martin J. Goodman19_mgoodman@012.net.il31_Sat, 11 Aug 2001 13:08:02 +0200435_iso-8859-1 11 August 2001

In Habonet Digest 1966, Sam writes,

"" 'For example, M.K. Michal Eitan of Likud, M.K. Haim Ramon of Labor, and M.K. Ron Cohen of Meretz, all support unilateral separation in one form or another.' [quoted from previous posting by marty goodman.] But only Marty Goodman has taken that separation to include a transfer of Israeli Arabs from their homes in Israel to the West Bank and Gaza. "" [...] 6396 70 18_Re: Marty Goodman.0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com29_Sat, 11 Aug 2001 12:40:42 EDT600_US-ASCII In a message dated 8/9/01 4:16:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Smfgrappa@aol.com writes:



> I am stunned > to read these kind of extreme poorly thought out and outright dangerous > postings on Habonet.

Marty Goodman responded:

I think Habonet ought to be a forum where such ideas can be evaluated and developed.

I was going to remain silent on this but I will take Sam's advice and not allow silence to indicate that I approve of what is being said. While I think Marty's solution is flawed I completely agree that this ought to be an open forum for all [...] 6467 371 38_eyewitness account to Sbarro explosion7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Sun, 12 Aug 2001 10:07:07 +0300549_Windows-1252 >(forwarded from another list I belong to).

> Friday; Erev Shabbat. > > Her eyes, I think, will stay with me forever. Imploring, beseeching, full of so much sadness. I think the shock of where and how she was, was sinking in. I can't begin to describe all that was in those eyes. > > Yesterday; Thursday, August 9th the 20th of Av, on my way to work, I found myself walking down Yaffo street. Hungry, I decided to stop and grab a quick bite... at Sbarro's Pizza. > > In the past 5 years I have frequented this establishment [...] 6839 133 57_: Wall Street Journal - Editorial: The Jerusalem Massacre7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Sun, 12 Aug 2001 10:18:32 +0300653_Windows-1252

----- Original Message ----- From: Level33 To: Informal Aliyah discussion group Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2001 2:24 AM Subject: FW: Wall Street Journal - Editorial: The Jerusalem Massacre



> Friday, August 10, 2001 > > ___________________________ > Wall Street Journal > August 10, 2001 > Review & Outlook > The Jerusalem Massacre > > We'll get to the latest Palestinian massacre of Israeli civilians in a > moment, but first a lesson in historical context. One of the most memorable > stories Ariel Sharon tells is of the visit he made to Washington in 1982 on > the [...] 6973 86 57_Fw: Fw: JEA Digest - 8 Aug 2001 to 10 Aug 2001 (#2001-73)20_Deborah Tanzer-Cohen15_candeb@juno.com31_Sun, 12 Aug 2001 09:17:41 -0500473_us-ascii I always knew there was an especially important reason to use Clinique! --------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Donald M Cohen To: candeb@juno.com Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 22:37:31 -0500 Subject: Fw: JEA Digest - 8 Aug 2001 to 10 Aug 2001 (#2001-73) Message-ID: <20010811.224622.-442585.3.donco5@juno.com>

> > > > >

Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 15:39:04 -0600 From: Edwin Frankel Subject: Support Friends [...] 7060 47 39_Some very serious demographic questions14_The Bernhardts24_miriam_b@neve-ilan.co.il31_Sun, 12 Aug 2001 23:31:06 +0300538_us-ascii Dear all, First I don't want any philosophical answers to the questions that I am going to ask. I want to strengthen the collection of facts that I have, but some of which I may have forgotten. 1) What percentage of the Arabs who live west of the Jordan (or are claiming the "right of return") can legitimately claim to be from families that were in "Palestine" a) prior to 1900 b) prior to 1920? 2) What was the real status of the land on which Gilo sits? Looking at the topography, I doubt that it was anything serious to [...] 7108 35 18_RE: Haaretz online11_Carol Shore21_c_shore@ix.netcom.com31_Sun, 12 Aug 2001 19:45:17 -0400565_iso-8859-1 Chevre, Yes, I have been experiencing difficulty getting onto haaretz.com during the past 10 days. Could an anti-Zionist hacker be blocking access? Carol Shore

> -----Original Message----- > From: owner-habonet@shamash.org [mailto:owner-habonet@shamash.org]On > Behalf Of Judith Gelman > Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2001 5:27 PM > To: habonet > Subject: Haaretz online > > > Dear Chevre- > Has any oe else been having trouble getting onto Haaretz online? I get a > notice that I am forbidden to enter the site. Any idea why? > Judy Gelman > > [...] 7144 62 18_RE: Haaretz online12_Dave Edelman21_docdave@optonline.net31_Sun, 12 Aug 2001 20:33:10 -0400561_iso-8859-1 Chevre,

While I too love conspiracy theories this one is easy to explain. To quote the message that I received before Haaretz daily mail delivery and the web site went off line:

"Dear Subscriber, We have launched our new Web site, and as a result you might be experiencing some problems with your email subscription. We apologize for the inconvenience and are working on resuming the service shortly. In the meantime, you can visit our new site at www.haaretzdaily.com Sincerely, Peter Hirschberg Editor, Ha'aretz English Website" [...] 7207 139 17_Jack Kelly column0_15_DebALev@aol.com29_Sun, 12 Aug 2001 21:54:50 EDT645_US-ASCII





































Jack Kelly: Israel is blamed for responding to carnage

Sunday, August 12, 2001

By Jack Kelly













As Americans and Europeans get ready to go to the beach, Israelis wonder if violent death will greet them on the way to work, at the shopping mall or in the schoolyards where their children play. The suicide bomb attack Thursday in Jerusalem that killed 15 people, six of them children, is the latest grisly example. [...] 7347 187 64_NYTimes.com Article: A Retreat to the Familiar Ground of Zionism0_17_rbarland@mjds.org37_Sun, 12 Aug 2001 22:05:07 -0400 (EDT)518_- This article from NYTimes.com has been sent to you by rbarland@mjds.org.

This is worth reading.

/-------------------- advertisement -----------------------\



Let NYTimes.com Come to You

Sign up for one of our weekly e-mails and the news will come directly to you. YOUR MONEY brings you a wealth of analysis and information about personal investing. CIRCUITS plugs you into the latest on personal technology. TRAVEL DISPATCH offers you a jump on special travel deals and news. [...] 7535 77 43_Re: Some very serious demographic questions7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Mon, 13 Aug 2001 09:51:44 +0300536_iso-8859-1 In answer to your questions:

2) I read that the land that Gilo was built on was indeed bought by Jews before 1948. I do not know if all of it but a good part of it was Jewish-owned land. By the way, Jews owned over 100,000 dunams of Sinai, bought long before 1948, that was returned to Egypt when Yamit and the villages built on this land were returned. It is interesting to note that Egypt initially refused to take possession of the Sinai when it was offered to them by the British, I believe around the end of [...] 7613 91 22_A Demographic Question17_Martin J. Goodman19_mgoodman@012.net.il31_Mon, 13 Aug 2001 11:04:21 +0200610_iso-8859-1 13 August 2001

In Habonet Digest 1968, Miriam Bernhardt asks,

"" What percentage of the Arabs who live west of the Jordan (or are claiming the "right of return") can legitimately claim to be from families that were in "Palestine" a) prior to 1900 .... ""

One available data source is the article by A. Scholch, "The Demographic Development of Palestine" which appears in the International Journal of Middle East Studies, 1985, Vol. 17. According to Scholch, the number of Arabs living west of the Jordan was about 400,000 in 1881. By the end of WWI, the Arab population in [...] 7705 71 10_Ron Lauder16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Mon, 13 Aug 2001 10:33:59 -0400608_us-ascii Deborah Tanzer-Cohen posted a defense of the Estee Lauder cosmetics company in response to reports that it is being boycotted by the Arab world

> Estee Lauder Corporation is being boycotted by a loud and ambitious > Campaign by the world's Arab and Muslim community due to Ron Lauder's > Estee > Lauder's President) support for Israel. > Estee Lauder's corporate head is, however, the same Ron Lauder who as the immediate past Chairman of the Conference of Presidents of Jewish Organizations headed the effort to railroad LZA out of the P.C. and opposed the admission of Meretz USA into [...] 7777 87 14_Re: Ron Lauder0_14_LHIAM1@aol.com29_Mon, 13 Aug 2001 10:54:45 EDT296_ISO-8859-1 It certainly is true ... with friends like Ron Lauder who needs enemies of course we tend to have a shortage of friends and an over-abundance of enemies. Then there are those who beleive that we are our own worst enemies... oops guess we have gone full circle back to Ron Lauder. [...] 7865 20 14_Re: Ron Lauder0_15_DebALev@aol.com29_Mon, 13 Aug 2001 12:42:52 EDT413_ISO-8859-1 FWIW, this email about Lauder and the boycott by Arabs, etc. first came into my mailbox a little over a year ago. It would be interesting to see what other events were happening re: Lauder around the time this came out.

I'm usually not given to conspiracy theories, but it wouldn't surprise me if one of Lauder's right wing fans sent it out after some disagreement with his actions........ [...] 7886 65 23_Moshe Dworkin's Illness0_15_NEVETS2@aol.com29_Mon, 13 Aug 2001 14:38:40 EDT578_US-ASCII To: Habonet, Labor Zionist community From: Daniel Mann

Those who may not have heard about this may want to know that Moshe Dworkin suffered a stroke about 3 weeks ago, apparently in the course of a flight home from Israel, and is still unconscious at New York Hospital.

As you may know, Moish came out of Detroit Habonim in the 1950s and was on the 4th Workshop at Kfar Blum, and has been involved in a wide range of Zionist, communal and educational activities. A number of us - including Steve Weinberg, Ben Cohen and myself from LZA, Rosalie Grad [...] 7952 106 26_Re: A Demographic Question7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Mon, 13 Aug 2001 22:29:00 +0300408_iso-8859-1 marty, I recall reading once during my research days that there were only 200 indigenous Palestinian Arab families in Palestine before the Jewish immigration into eretz yisrael. albeit, chamulot could be very big. pearl ----- Original Message ----- From: Martin J. Goodman To: Sent: Monday, August 13, 2001 12:04 PM Subject: A Demographic Question [...] 8059 30 27_Re: Moshe Dworkin's Illness0_13_SC523@aol.com29_Tue, 14 Aug 2001 01:52:27 EDT476_US-ASCII I often tell non-Habonim friends about how Habonet was created the night Rabin was killed so like-minded chevreh would be able to share feelings. People to whom I tell the story always say, "You all are so lucky to have that communication vein." Similarly, I must make a comment re: how lucky we are to have Habonet when even such sad news about Moshe Dworkin must be shared. Moshe and I are, in fact, related by marriage but much more so by Habonim background. [...] 8090 24 23_Re: HABONET digest 196912_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Tue, 14 Aug 2001 09:53:13 +0200296_us-ascii Marty, Thanks for posting the A Demographic Question and other factual info Guess that earns you the right to post trial ideas that I don't particularly cotton to. BTW can any linguists tell me what the origin of: " I don't cotton to" is? Is it Jewish? Any connection to "shatnez"? [...] 8115 22 27_Really serious announcement13_avi rosenberg16_avi@gezer.org.il31_Tue, 14 Aug 2001 10:04:40 +0200642_us-ascii Now I know the security situation here is really serious. It was announced this morning that the Red Hot Chili Peppers have postponed their Tel Aviv concert to an unknown date sometime in a distant and bomb-free future.

Avi Rosenberg webDesign - cybermedia.co.il Tel: 972-8-9204075 Fax: 972-8-9270736

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 8138 96 61_Re: Fw: Fw: JEA Digest - 8 Aug 2001 to 10 Aug 2001 (#2001-73)21_Tsippi (Frances) Rudy19_tsippi@mediaone.net31_Sun, 12 Aug 2001 09:28:38 -0700314_us-ascii I use both Clinique and Estee Lauder products anyway, but in the interest of finding out for myself what is the truth of this matter, I emailed the company and asked. (I am tired of feeling scolded for signing seemingly worthy petitions for causes like Afghani women's rights, the environment, etc.) [...] 8235 61 23_RE: HABONET digest 196914_Jennie Berkson21_jberkson@mediaone.net31_Tue, 14 Aug 2001 07:38:11 -0500584_iso-8859-1 I didn't think I'd be posting to the list quite so soon after joining, but I couldn't resist responding to this one.

First, I'm supposed to introduce myself

Hi everyone -- I'm Jennie Berkson I live in Evanston, IL I was active in Chicago Habonim 1970-1972 and attended MB 1971. I'm a second generation Habonimnik (Mom was in NY -- Dad was Hashomer Hatzair, but I've forgiven him long ago) and I think we can be fairly sure that there will be another generation since my 13-year-old son Dan Edelstein just came home from Tavor yesterday having had, as he [...] 8297 53 23_RE: HABONET digest 196914_Jennie Berkson21_jberkson@mediaone.net31_Tue, 14 Aug 2001 13:12:29 -0500294_iso-8859-1 "Cotton to" at least as an expression in English dates to the 16th century CE at least as far as the Oxford English Dictionary is concerned. It has the meaning of "to agree with" or "to feel an affinity with" --- It might be based on the fact that cotton clings to other cloth. [...] 8351 48 27_Re: Moshe Dworkin's Illness7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Tue, 14 Aug 2001 21:29:19 +0300355_iso-8859-1 aliya, is this the same Moshe Dworkin that I knew in Jerusalem, who once owned a stationary-art supplies shop off Ben Yehuda St? The Moshe Dworkin I knew was from Betar I believe. pearl ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2001 8:52 AM Subject: Re: Moshe Dworkin's Illness [...] 8400 36 17_Israeli Captives.11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org31_Tue, 14 Aug 2001 16:06:48 +0100611_us-ascii This e-mail was written to me by a woman who was on the National Educator's Mission in Jerusalem this July. Something to think about.

Shalom all! I distributed 200 flyers about Hayim & Edna Avraham's story and the misheberach prayer at the CAJE conference this past week -- in addition to having an announcement in the daily conference newsletter that potentially all 1,700 attendees would have read. I also spoke to my shul about it this past shabbat as an introduction to our adoption of the prayer. It's my goal that we get congregations nation-wide (world-wide?) to say the misheberach [...] 8437 72 9_Appalling0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Tue, 14 Aug 2001 22:37:29 EDT558_US-ASCII I was recently informed that one chaver tnuah accused another chaver tnuah of not only "acting like Hamas"- but stating that the chaver WAS Hamas! I am appalled. I have come to realize the fact that we, as Jews, are probably never going to be accepted as a people by the "world." I have been reading and rereading Ben Hecht's play, "A Flag is Born" in which "Tevya" and his wife, Zelda, are the remnants of European Jewry and end up in a graveyard where "every good Jew has friends." (to quote Tevya)--and during the couple's stay - where they [...] 8510 197 43_Help for Gloria Cuartas--Terror in Colombia13_Michael Livni21_ml-lotan@zahav.net.il31_Wed, 15 Aug 2001 18:59:45 -07001119_utf-8 Shalom‭ ‬Habonet‮ ‬ from Michael Livni I‭ ‬have‭ ‬returned‭ ‬to‭ ‬Habonet‭ ‬cyberspace‭ ‬and‭ ‬I‭ ‬have‭ ‬a‭ ‬Tikkun‭ ‬Olam‭ ‬request‮ --‬ can‭ ‬anyone‭ ‬out‭ ‬there‭ ‬help‭ ‬Gloria‭ ‬Quartas‭ ‬who‭ ‬is‭ ‬apparently‭ ‬facing Colombian‭ ‬para‭-‬military‭ ‬terror‭. ‬The‭ ‬people‭ ‬who‭ ‬have‭ ‬requested‭ ‬me‭ ‬to‭ ‬help are‭ ‬from‭ ‬the‭ ‬European‭ ‬communal‭ ‬movement‭ ‬whose‭ ‬International‭ ‬Communities meeting‭ ‬near‭ ‬Berlin‭ ‬which‭ ‬I‭ ‬recently‭ ‬attended‭. ‬Some‭ ‬of‭ ‬them‭ ‬were‭ ‬involved‭ ‬in a‭ ‬meeting‭ ‬of‭ ‬Women‭ ‬for‭ ‬Peace‭ ‬in‭ ‬Portugal‭ ‬which‭ ‬Gloria‭ ‬Quartas‭ ‬attended‭. ‬Now she‭ ‬is‭ ‬returning‭ ‬home‭ "‬to‭ ‬face‭ ‬the‭ ‬music‭" . ‬I‭ ‬am‭ ‬of‭ ‬the‭ ‬opinion‭ ‬that‭ ‬only if‭ ‬the‭ ‬US‭ ‬Media‭ ‬get‭ ‬into‭ ‬this‭ [...] 8708 27 47_Re: Help for Gloria Cuartas--Terror in Colombia16_Judith R. Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Wed, 15 Aug 2001 12:29:10 -0400593_iso-8859-1 Is this totally unreadable for others too? ( I included just a small sample out of rachmones for those on digest.)

Michael-I love reading what you have to say, but not in this format!

Shalom- Judy

Michael Livni wrote:

> Shalom‭ ‬Habonet‮ ‬ from Michael Livni > I‭ ‬have‭ ‬returned‭ ‬to‭ ‬Habonet‭ ‬cyberspace‭ ‬and‭ ‬I‭ ‬have‭ ‬a‭ ‬Tikkun‭ ‬Olam‭ ‬request‮ --‬ > can‭ ‬anyone‭ ‬out‭ ‬there‭ ‬help‭ ‬Gloria‭ ‬Quartas‭ ‬who‭ ‬is‭ ‬apparently‭ ‬facing [...] 8736 1245 41_Breakfast meeting with MK Ophir Pines-Paz0_16_LabZionA@aol.com29_Wed, 15 Aug 2001 14:33:43 EDT672_US-ASCII Chaverim,

An invitation:

Tomorrow morning, Thursday, August 16th, 9:00 am

A breakfast meeting with MK Ophir Pines-Paz, cosponsored by the Labor Zionist Alliance, Meretz USA and NCLI.

Beit Shalom, 114 West 26th St., 10th floor.

Please RSVP to: labziona@aol.com

Attached is an article from the Jerusalem Post about MK Pines-Paz.







________________________________________________________________ Ari M. Chester Executive Director Labor Zionist Alliance 275 Seventh Avenue Seventeenth Floor New York, NY 10001-6708 Phone (212) 366-1194 Fax (212) 675-7685 Cell (646) 594-4899 www.laborzionist.org 9982 28 45_Re: Breakfast meeting with MK Ophir Pines-Paz11_Noam Stopak26_n.stopak@scienceserver.com31_Wed, 15 Aug 2001 14:45:41 -0400639_us-ascii I'm guessing this is in New York?

LabZionA@aol.com wrote:

> An invitation: > > Tomorrow morning, Thursday, August 16th, 9:00 am > > A breakfast meeting with MK Ophir Pines-Paz, cosponsored by the Labor Zionist > Alliance, Meretz USA and NCLI. > > Beit Shalom, 114 West 26th St., 10th floor.

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 10011 1511 43_Mideast Myths Exploded (washingtonpost.com)16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Wed, 15 Aug 2001 15:02:08 -0400147_us-ascii The following op-ed appeared in today's Washington Post.



http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/opinion/A12316-2001Aug14.html 11523 24 45_Re: Breakfast meeting with MK Ophir Pines-Paz0_15_DebALev@aol.com29_Wed, 15 Aug 2001 15:12:17 EDT568_US-ASCII In a message dated 8/15/01 11:53:01 AM Pacific Daylight Time, n.stopak@scienceserver.com writes:

> I'm guessing this is in New York?



Isn't everything in New York, Noam? Sometimes it seems that way.

Debbie

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 11548 30 45_Re: Breakfast meeting with MK Ophir Pines-Paz11_Noam Stopak26_n.stopak@scienceserver.com31_Wed, 15 Aug 2001 15:19:52 -0400491_us-ascii



DebALev@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 8/15/01 11:53:01 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > n.stopak@scienceserver.com writes: > > > I'm guessing this is in New York? > > Isn't everything in New York, Noam? Sometimes it seems that way. > > Debbie

Since my daughter is in New York (state anyway) at the moment, and Mike Mussina now plays for the Yankees, and Elihu can even get the Washington Post in NY, it certainly feels that way at the moment :-) [...] 11579 29 36_Info needed on Solidarity Rally 9/2316_Judith R. Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Wed, 15 Aug 2001 15:26:40 -0400395_us-ascii Dear Chevreh-

What can you connected ones tell me about the rally being held in NYC on 9/23? Who is organizing it? Are speakers arranged? WHo are they? What organizations are in the ground stage of planning?

Washington's Federation is renting a train to go and I want some more info before I recommend starting a big recruiting effort for members of my congregation. [...] 11609 36 23_Re: HABONET digest 197012_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Wed, 15 Aug 2001 23:07:43 +0200553_us-ascii Jennie, welcome to our show.

Thanks for the low down on "cotton to." You also wrote: > > In fact, cotton probably would not have grown very well in ancient > Israel -- you >need alot of sun AND moisture. Think Southern United States. Well in the fifties before we realized how improvident we were and how little water resources we had kibbutzim were urged to go into cotton growing big time. An American Jew named Sam Hamburg who was a world expert on cotton culture came and taught us how to do it right. The rationale was to grow [...] 11646 52 23_Re: HABONET digest 197016_Judith R. Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Wed, 15 Aug 2001 16:39:13 -0400563_us-ascii Dear Jennie-

In the early 1970's, cotton was a big crop on Maayan Baruch (which has plenty of moisture Sukkot to Pesach in non-drought years) and in the 1980's it was grown on the southern section of the Golan. I distinctly remember several kibbutz members at Maayan Baruch who didn't have much of a sense of humor about the members of the 23rd workshop singing Negro Spirituals as we "slaved" in the cotton fields. Years later at Mevo Hama, I told the manager of the cotton what we used to sing. He loved the idea but he couldn't get anyone [...] 11699 56 29_Alternative to state religion14_Ethan Schwartz24_schwar1@netvision.net.il31_Thu, 16 Aug 2001 00:19:58 +0200358_iso-8859-1 I'm forwarding an appeal sent by my hevruta in Eilat. We are a small and growing group, an important alternative to State religion. The first Prayer books we got were by chance from the congregation My family belonged to in Silver Spring. We have gotten pretty good at binding good books with bad covers. Thanks for any help you'll can give. [...] 11756 50 17_from another list0_15_DebALev@aol.com29_Wed, 15 Aug 2001 23:27:50 EDT729_US-ASCII Where better to ask than on Habonet? Please respond directly to them

Debbie



From: riv-ellen prell Subject: Jewish Counter Culture Archive > >>Professor Chava Weissler and I are co-curating what we are calling >>"The Jewish Counter Culture Archive," for the American Jewish >>Historical Society. Our intention as scholars of that movement is >>to collect together the papers of its organizations and >>participants, as well as work written about it. >> >>Scholars place under the umbrella of the Jewish Counter Culture, a >>loose association of organizations from the late 1960s-the late >>1970s havurot, minyanim, early Jewish feminism, Jewish political >>organizations, [...] 11807 272 13_Re: Appalling7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Wed, 15 Aug 2001 23:08:24 +0300517_iso-8859-1 thanks, Sue. I hope I don't get flack from Sam that I wrote you, but I was really upset by the tone of his letters, to say nothing of the content. I only sent you those three sentences which were the "last straw", so to speak. He actually wrote me that he hopes the powder keg I sit on soon will blow up. I got the letter the day of the horrific bombing in Jerusalem. I knew the family that was killed, their parents and the husband's sisters. My nephew was at the bus stop next to the restaurant and [...] 12080 31 18_The Land of Cotton17_Martin J. Goodman19_mgoodman@012.net.il31_Thu, 16 Aug 2001 10:46:41 +0200495_iso-8859-1 16 August 2001

In the recent thread about growing cotton in Israel, Jenny wrote, "" ... cotton probably would not have grown very well in ancient Israel -- you need alot of sun AND moisture. ""

Actually based on a variety of sources: literary, archaeological, etc., it is conjectured that in Bible times, the Middle East in general and portions of Israel in particular enjoyed significantly more rainfall and possibly lower average temperatures than they do today. [...] 12112 22 23_Re: HABONET digest 19690_18_Judithb253@aol.com29_Thu, 16 Aug 2001 05:42:54 EDT496_US-ASCII I have a strong suspicion that "cotton to" originated in the deep south as code words of the men and women who had to pick the cotton, under great duress. If the phrase was used earlier, according to the dictionary report, the American connotation is still slave related. I wouldn't, for example, use the phrase when speaking to a Black friend. I get the feeling it would be offensive for me to use it to him. It would, if this is the case, not have much at all to do with shatnez. [...] 12135 76 23_RE: HABONET digest 196914_Jennie Berkson21_jberkson@mediaone.net31_Thu, 16 Aug 2001 06:08:38 -0500553_iso-8859-1 I've been trained professionally not to _end_ my search for correct answers to things based on my suspicions or conjectures. Or more accurately based on someone else's question, suspicion or conjecture since most of what I do for a living is to answer other peoples questions. Not based on what I _know_, but what I know how to _find out_. The question, conjecture or suspicion is where the search _begins_. Then I look for _evidence_ and _facts_, published, authoritative, across more than one resource if I am lucky enough to find it. [...] 12212 31 23_Also from another list.11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org31_Thu, 16 Aug 2001 07:25:12 +0100553_us-ascii To all who were on the Israel mission (and anyone else who got this e-mail and is willing):

Please recall the point of David Olesker, when he encouraged us to strengthen and support those who do present a pro-Israel position. For so long we, as an American Jewish community, have waited for a major, national media source to call it like it is. It must be beneficial to our greater cause if we all write letters to the Washington Post thanking them for publishing this opinion piece, a piece which finally sets the record straight. [...] 12244 27 23_Re: HABONET digest 197020_Deborah Tanzer-Cohen15_candeb@juno.com31_Thu, 16 Aug 2001 08:58:54 -0500638_us-ascii When I lived on Kibbutz Lavi (1970-71) they were still growing cotton down in the Emek. I have some lovely photos of my hachshara in a cotton wagon with a bunch of preschoolers having "snowball" fights while we stamped down the cotton. Cotton is not the only agricultural product to fall by the wayside. What happened to the famed Jaffa oranges that my father used to buy by the crate? Debbie ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. [...] 12272 22 33_Re: Info on Solidarity Rally 9/230_13_JLCAA@aol.com29_Thu, 16 Aug 2001 12:37:28 EDT440_US-ASCII The Rally in New York will begin at 1:00pm on 9/23 A number of Israelis (of all political stripes) have been invited, as well as major NY city and state pols ( use your imagination). This is to be a BIG demo to show support for Israel in the face of the terrorist bombings. A number of organizations are participating in the planning but the primary mover is the UJC. If you need additional information, let me know. Avi Lyon [...] 12295 68 31_apology to Habonet, Sue and Sam7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Thu, 16 Aug 2001 19:59:06 +0300542_windows-1255 I apologize profusely for the inadvertant error of sending a private letter through Habonet. It obviously was an honest mistake and I have learned my lesson: to always check the address. I especially apologize to Sam -- but as a psychologist he will understand that one sometimes has to unburden oneself in order to not harbor ranquor, to try to find answers that avert you, to simply understand why and how one thinks the way one does..... I am appalled that this letter went through Habonet and I ask that you forgive me. [...] 12364 49 28_Israel Solidarity Rally 9/230_15_NEVETS2@aol.com29_Thu, 16 Aug 2001 13:41:13 EDT610_US-ASCII Judy, shalom

At this morning's LZA meeting with MK Ophir Pines-Paz (excellent) I spoke about the rally with Esther Lederman (ex mazkira Habonim Dror, now working for the Reform Movement's seekpeace.org) about the rally, given LZA's concerns similar to yours. She told me that it had been "worked out" with the UJC that there would be a "balance" in the invited speakers. Sharon & Sharansky balanced by Peres & Burg. This leads me to believe that "the Left" is finding a way to participate wholeheartedly in this rally and that you can continue making plans to recruit people while waiting [...] 12414 33 16_Re: Prayer Books0_13_SC523@aol.com29_Thu, 16 Aug 2001 13:44:14 EDT622_US-ASCII A response to Ethan and anyone who is looking for machzorim or prayer books.

Yes, many of the Conservative Movement shuls have Silverman machzorim and siddurim to donate in large quantities. The usual expectation, however, I'm told, is that the receiver will pay for the shipping, not the sender.

Here's what you should do in Israel: Contact Rabbi Ehud Bandel in the Masorti Movement office = 02-6246560 or email internet@masorti.org and ask him to post a request on Ravnet (only members can post requests on Ravnet just like only Habonet subscribers can post on Habonet) which goes out to all [...] 12448 30 10_Re:shatnes12_Doug Greener25_ddwgreen@netvision.net.il31_Thu, 16 Aug 2001 21:34:06 +0300588_ISO-8859-1 Did anyone else learn about the early American pioneers and their "linsy-woolsy" clothing? Yup, only figured out later that it was shatnes. So I guess there weren't many Orthodox Jewish pioneers in them thar hills.

Our first working day on Workshop at Gesher Haziv (try to remember this, Ammon) was supposed to be real slave labor - picking the cotton on the perimeter of the fields that the automatic cotton picker couldn't get to (now that I think about it, aren't the corners of the fields supposed to be left for the poor?). At any rate, the work was cancelled [...] 12479 48 13_very sad news0_15_Moshava@aol.com29_Thu, 16 Aug 2001 20:56:56 EDT526_US-ASCII Dear chevre: I have such horrible news. Just recently we discussed what an angel our friend Ami Cohen had become. What wonderful things he did through his foundation Save A Child's Heart. Ami Cohen died today while climbing Mt. Kilimanjaro. He was there with his daughter. Evidently he had a heart attack. Ami was only 47 years old. He will be missed by his family, his friends, his country and all the children whose lives he saved. He will be remembered by so many people all over the world. In Great Sadness, Tammy 12528 51 10_Re:shatnes29_Richard Steacy & Esther Cohen22_richard.steacy@gte.net31_Thu, 16 Aug 2001 18:46:12 -0400336_iso-8859-1 i have a strong recollection, from my workshop at gesher haziv (77-78) of watching the sino-african group heading out to the fields, and having "jump down turn around" going through my head, so i assume they were going out to the cotton fields. but i couldn't pull up a real memory of having cotton at gh then - did we? [...] 12580 69 10_Re:shatnes12_Nancy Gordon21_nancygordon3@home.com31_Fri, 17 Aug 2001 00:32:10 -0400634_iso-8859-1 I distinctly remember picking cotton at Gesher Haziv 1960-1961.

Nancy Gordon

----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Steacy & Esther Cohen" To: Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2001 6:46 PM Subject: Re:shatnes



> i have a strong recollection, from my workshop at gesher haziv (77-78) of > watching the sino-african group heading out to the fields, and having "jump > down turn around" going through my head, so i assume they were going out to > the cotton fields. but i couldn't pull up a real memory of having cotton at > gh then - did we? > > [...] 12650 25 32_Donations in Memory of Ami Cohen16_Judith R. Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Fri, 17 Aug 2001 09:48:49 -0400524_us-ascii Dear Chevreh-

Donations in memory of Ami Cohen should be sent to:

Save a Child's Heart Foundation 2 Saddlerock Court SIlver Spring, MD 20902

Shabbat shalom- Judy Gelman

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 12676 527 15_Ophir Pines-Paz16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Fri, 17 Aug 2001 10:23:34 -0400 13204 21 16_Re: Cotton at GH0_13_JLCAA@aol.com29_Fri, 17 Aug 2001 11:22:43 EDT356_US-ASCII On the 11th we also had to "jump down, turn around, pick a bale of cotton." One of the "fun jobs" was climbing into the wagon into which the cotton picker dumped its load and then stomping down on the cotton in order to compress the load. Everyone that this was a great job until they actually tried it -- that's when they began to itch! Avi [...] 13226 63 16_Letter from Carl0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com29_Fri, 17 Aug 2001 11:45:49 EDT348_US-ASCII Carl from the 11th workshop gave me perrmission to post this. He has asked that his e mail not be published because he does not want "to get into any red faced arguments."

He said he may change is mind but then again maybe not.

Dear Sam,

Good to see you've resurfaced. No one heard anything from you for a while. [...] 13290 41 50_Israeli Dance Marathon this Sat. night in New York0_13_SC523@aol.com29_Fri, 17 Aug 2001 12:24:26 EDT307_US-ASCII I was just on the phone with a Habonim Israeli dancer 30 years younger than I, and we are both planning to attend a Dance Marathon this Sat. night at the Y here in Manhattan. She said, "Why don't you put it on Habonet and people from Habonim of all ages who like Israeli dance might show up?" [...] 13332 74 11_Re: shatnes30_FriedArt Studio/David Friedman18_david@friedart.com31_Fri, 17 Aug 2001 10:54:23 -0700616_US-ASCII I definitely remember cotton at Gesher Haziv during our Wkshp, Esther. David Eisenberg probably remembers it better than us...I'm sure he worked on the combine.

David Friedman Portland, OR

. on 8/16/01 3:46 PM, Richard Steacy & Esther Cohen at richard.steacy@gte.net wrote:

> i have a strong recollection, from my workshop at gesher haziv (77-78) of > watching the sino-african group heading out to the fields, and having "jump > down turn around" going through my head, so i assume they were going out to > the cotton fields. but i couldn't pull up a real memory of having cotton [...] 13407 71 10_Re:shatnes16_Beverly Schwartz19_beverly@hevanet.com31_Fri, 17 Aug 2001 13:55:31 -0700636_iso-8859-1 I am sure that there was cotton on Gesher Haziv when we were there Esther. In fact, I think that Howie worked in the cotton fields.

Beverly

----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Steacy & Esther Cohen" To: Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2001 3:46 PM Subject: Re:shatnes



> i have a strong recollection, from my workshop at gesher haziv (77-78) of > watching the sino-african group heading out to the fields, and having "jump > down turn around" going through my head, so i assume they were going out to > the cotton fields. but i couldn't pull [...] 13479 31 10_Re: Cotton0_15_NEVETS2@aol.com29_Sat, 18 Aug 2001 01:20:36 EDT364_US-ASCII Chevre Shabat shalom

I was "stationed" at Kibbutz Shamir (Artzi) in the Galil Elyon during and after Milchemet Shayshet Hayamim. They had cotton fields that needed weeding. Oy!

Most field work on Kibbutz started at 6 AM. The cotton fields in the Hula were so brutally hot in June and July, however, that cotton weeding started at 4 AM. [...] 13511 26 6_cotton8_jr toben17_jrtoben@yahoo.com37_Sat, 18 Aug 2001 05:25:31 -0700 (PDT)317_us-ascii Here's some actual first hand experience about growing cotton in GH. I worked in cotton on workshop 1963, it was still grown in 1968 and continued till the mid 90's. Sadly, no more cotton is grown here for two reasons. GH has poor soil, and there's a country-wide water shortage. Jim Toben Gesher Haziv [...] 13538 50 28_Israel Solidarity Rally 9/2311_Jared Matas22_jaredmatas@hotmail.com31_Sat, 18 Aug 2001 07:05:09 -0700485_-



I hope that this 'Israel Solidarity Rally' proves to be a bit more enlightened than the one I attended last year, as part of a Habonim Dror contingent. The strong turn-out by the Brooklyn Kachniks was quite off-putting, as was the violent manner in which the signs we carried we ripped out of our hands by some other right-wing hate-mongers. I didn't realize that the slogan "Reconcilliation not Retalliation" would be considered offensive by most of the crowd. [...] 13589 39 13_Labor studies16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Sat, 18 Aug 2001 10:10:17 -0400651_us-ascii TIKKUN OLAM STUDY SESSION Co-sponsored by Jews United For Justice [JUFJ] and the Morris Cafritz Center for Community Service of the DC Jewish Community Center

TOPIC? Judaism and Labor Law

WHEN? Monday, August 20, 7pm

WHERE? DCJCC, 16th & Q Sts., NW

MORE INFO? 202-884-7635 or jufj@earthlink.net

JUFJ says: Our August text study will be on "Judaism and Labor Law." As we prepare ourselves for Labor Day (and Labor on the Bimah), we will examine sacred texts from the Jewish tradition that instruct us on the importance of labor rights. Rabbi Sue Shankman of the Washington Hebrew Congregation will lead [...] 13629 679 58_Al-Ahram Weekly | Culture | Barenboim and the Wagner taboo16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Sat, 18 Aug 2001 10:38:52 -040017_us-ascii

14309 22 32_Messages for AMi Cohen's parents16_Judith R. Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Sat, 18 Aug 2001 10:44:54 -0400520_us-ascii Dear Chevreh-

Shlomo Cohen is no longer on Habonet so he has asked me to collect any messages that any of you have for Vati and Delores, Ami's parents.

Shalom- Judy Gelman

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 14332 172 29_Morris Daily Record editorial16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Sat, 18 Aug 2001 10:48:57 -040017_us-ascii

14505 1863 29_Attachment about Palestinians15_Leo Diesendruck18_leodie@isdn.net.il31_Sat, 18 Aug 2001 17:58:55 +0200413_windows-1255 The attachment below was sent to me recently. It is entitled: FROM JEW TO JEW: WHY WE SHOULD OPPOSE THE ISRAELI OCCUPATION OF THE WEST BANK AND GAZA. I don't agree with a lot of it but nevertheless it's worthwhile thinking about. It's too long to paste in, so I made it into an attachment. For those who are interested but don't open attachments - let me know and I'll send it to you. Leo Diesendruck 16369 72 67_=?windows-1255?B?4fLw6envOiBJc3JhZWwgU29saWRhcml0eSBSYWxseSA5LzIz?=8_ericmoli25_ericmoli@netvision.net.il31_Sat, 18 Aug 2001 18:16:14 +0200481_windows-1255 Dear Jared,

I was on the 2nd Workshop (1952). I would like to hear about your experiences in the 43rd Workshop. Where was your group situated. How many made alyia? When did you make alyia? Where are you from?

Please write me at ericmoli@netvision.net.il

Mollie Marx ----- Original Message ----- From: Jared Matas To: Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2001 4:05 PM Subject: Israel Solidarity Rally 9/23 [...] 16442 73 67_=?windows-1255?B?4fLw6envOiBJc3JhZWwgU29saWRhcml0eSBSYWxseSA5LzIz?=8_ericmoli25_ericmoli@netvision.net.il31_Sat, 18 Aug 2001 18:21:05 +0200331_windows-1255 Dear Jared,

I was on the 2nd Workshop (1952) and would like to hear about the year you and your group spent here in the 43rd Workshop. Where are you from? (I'm from D.C.). When did you make alyia ( I made alyia in 1953) and how many others made alyia from your group (about 20 of our group came on alyia). [...] 16516 133 37_excerpts from today's New York Times.0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com29_Sat, 18 Aug 2001 11:43:31 EDT456_UTF-8 August 18, 2001

Israelis and Palestinians Prepare for a Long Struggle

By CLYDE HABERMAN

JERUSALEM, Aug. 17 — As if things were not bad enough for them, many Israelis and Palestinians gulped hard the other day when they read about what Israeli military strategists think may lie ahead. Army planners were said to have estimated that the bitter conflict consuming the two peoples for nearly a year could drag on until 2006. [...] 16650 40 11_Re: shatnes0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Sat, 18 Aug 2001 14:01:43 EDT481_US-ASCII I was there. The scratches are gone now, but the memory of trying to force the fibers out of nearly closed bols remains clear. Please correct me if you can, but my recollection is that the field was sprayed with the chemical that killed the plants - for ease of harvest- but the field was sprayed to early leaving lots of bols that were not yet opened and couldn't be picked by the machine - leaving it to us. Ahh for the good old days. Dennis (your cotton-pickin' Chaver) 16691 38 10_Re: cotton0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Sat, 18 Aug 2001 14:11:11 EDT363_US-ASCII The '61 cotton experience was something, but if were gonna' reminise, I think it shoul be Potatoes in February. The rocks and potatoes were identical as I recall the pre-dawn, frigid experience, stooped over and searching for the elusive tapuach ha'adamah. I taught me that you can only get dirt under your finger nails if the finger nails remain. Dennis 16730 34 9_Re:cotton0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Sat, 18 Aug 2001 14:35:49 EDT276_US-ASCII I remember sitting in the theater watching Sally Field in "Places in the Heart"- picking cotton and the close-ups of her scratched hands...and thinking, "I know what that feels like..."-- we really are lucky to have had those experiences..."The Nostalgia Queen" (sue) 16765 36 10_Re: cotton0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Sat, 18 Aug 2001 14:55:02 EDT244_US-ASCII Do you remember the agalah with the 10' high chickenwire fence? I remember looking at one of those unmatured bols the size of a caterpillar and thinking, "they expect me to fill that, with this? Impossible." Those were the days. Dennis 16802 21 36_Re: Messages for AMi Cohen's parents12_Doug Greener25_ddwgreen@netvision.net.il31_Sat, 18 Aug 2001 21:05:54 +0300491_iso-8859-1 Judy,

You don't provide a direct email address for you, for messages for Vadi and Dolores, without sending the message to all Habonet.

Trudy

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 16824 31 36_Re: Messages for AMi Cohen's parents16_Judith R. Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Sat, 18 Aug 2001 16:44:57 -0400439_us-ascii Dear All- I didn't realize that not all of you got my email address simply by my sending a message. I always see the sender's address on messages to Habonet. Sorry! To email me privately, please use Gelman@erols.com Warmly- Judy Gelman

Doug Greener wrote:

> Judy, > > You don't provide a direct email address for you, for messages for Vadi and > Dolores, without sending the message to all Habonet. > > Trudy > [...] 16856 25 36_Re: Messages for AMi Cohen's parents0_15_DebALev@aol.com29_Sat, 18 Aug 2001 16:52:10 EDT609_US-ASCII In a message dated 8/18/01 1:47:29 PM Pacific Daylight Time, gelman@erols.com writes:

> I always see the sender's address on messages to Habonet



I do too, Judy, but maybe not everyone does......or maybe some don't know how to look for it.

Debbie

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 16882 18 13_Ami's funeral14_The Bernhardts24_miriam_b@neve-ilan.co.il31_Sun, 19 Aug 2001 00:24:33 +0300453_us-ascii Does someone have particulars as to the time and place of the funeral and the shivah for Ami Cohen z"l? Thanks, Miriam

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 16901 21 25_Mabat Maba, a Snunit site11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org31_Sun, 19 Aug 2001 07:49:40 +0100544_us-ascii This is a new site from Snunit. It is a great tool for teaching about pictures, words and how they affect us. It is in Hebrew. Shavua Tov, Rozzie Barland

http://www.snunit.k12.il/seder/mabat/.index.html

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 16923 43 33_from friday's Wall Street Journal11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org31_Sun, 19 Aug 2001 11:09:14 +0100586_us-ascii REVIEW & OUTLOOK

The Powell Problem The Secretary of State plants seeds of war in the Mideast.

Friday, August 17, 2001 12:01 a.m. EDT

Secretary of State Colin Powell took time Tuesday to speak to graduates of a summer camp in Maine known as Seeds of Peace. It gathers Arab and Israeli teenagers in hopes of breaking through the hatreds of the Middle East war. It was a perfect opportunity to look these young idealists in the eye and honor their courage by explaining that no nation can be expected to sit still while an enemy sends squads of suicide [...] 16967 91 103_=?windows-1255?B?4fLw6envOiDh8vDp6e86IElzcmFlbCBTb2xpZGFyaXR5IFJhbGx5IA==?= =?windows-1255?B?OS8yMw==?=8_ericmoli25_ericmoli@netvision.net.il31_Sun, 19 Aug 2001 21:07:52 +0200609_windows-1255

----- Original Message ----- From: ericmoli To: Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2001 6:21 PM Subject: áňđééď: Israel Solidarity Rally 9/23



> Dear Jared, > > I was on the 2nd Workshop (1952) and would like to hear about the year you > and your group spent here in the 43rd Workshop. Where are you from? (I'm > from D.C.). When did you make alyia ( I made alyia in 1953) and how many > others made alyia from your group (about 20 of our group came on alyia). > > Please write. My Email address is ericmoli@netvision.net.il > [...] 17059 197 18_A day in Jerusalem12_Doug Greener25_ddwgreen@netvision.net.il31_Sun, 19 Aug 2001 22:12:17 +0300563_iso-8859-1 Last night, after I had just finished assuring my brother in the States that, yes, we are always careful, the night quiet was cut by a blast of bullets that sounded as if it was just outside our house. My husband (who attained the grand rank of Private First-Class in the IDF) recognized it immediately as machine-gun fire, and my son (who is a reserve officer in the IDF) immediately shouted for us to get away from the windows. Turns out that a local, inner-city bus was shot at in our Pisgat Ze'ev neighborhood, just a few blocks away, lightly [...] 17257 50 64_Re: cotton, potatoes, Dennis, Sue, Carl and Sam (and Vic) et al.16_richard jacobson21_rikardiko@hotmail.com31_Sun, 19 Aug 2001 15:15:30 -0500293_- Dear Friends:

It's so odd: I spent a year telling you you were all wrong, and now I tune in to Habonet and I think you are all right. We were very fortunate to have the experience of picking cotton, and to strain our backs picking potatoes, and to be 17-or-whatever at the time. [...] 17308 33 36_Re: Messages for AMi Cohen's parents11_Lon Ephraim14_cbma@erols.com31_Sun, 19 Aug 2001 16:40:06 -0700553_us-ascii



This message is for Judy to pass on to Vadi & Delores (and of course Carmi and all the Cohens), but I am putting it on Habonet as well because I think we would all like the pleasure of remembering Ami together....

I remember that I bickered alot with black-eyed, apple cheeked Ami because I was a hippie and he was a jock. But I also remember that he was so good-natured that he never held anything against me and was my steadfast rikud partner. I was never little or lithe, but Ami lifted me like I was nothing. So [...] 17342 39 43_Letter from a sixteen year old Palestinean.0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com29_Sun, 19 Aug 2001 22:17:20 EDT526_US-ASCII This 16 year old Palestinean kid who lives in the US sent me a whole bunch of messages. I was surprised by the tone. She was pretty appalled by some of the radical things the adults were saying to each other One should draw no conclusions, but she gave me permision to post one of her postings from the AOL message board. She did not want her name or e mail used. but I can vouch for the authenticity. Please do not go trying to find out who she is and harrassing her although her posting was pubilc and remains [...] 17382 125 13_Time magazine0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com29_Sun, 19 Aug 2001 22:40:00 EDT665_UTF-8 Middle East: Into the Abyss? West Bank incursions suggest Israel and the Palestinians are abandoning Oslo and entering uncharted territory BY TONY KARON





Tuesday, Aug. 14, 2001 Each incremental raising of the ante may not look like much in itself, but taken cumulatively the pattern is unmistakable: No longer bound by a peace process, Israel and the Palestinians have jumped into the abyss. Israeli tanks and troops were poised to move into Palestinian-controlled villages near Bethlehem late Tuesday, following the incursion earlier in the day into the West Bank town of Jenin, where some 70 Israeli tanks destroyed a Palestinian [...] 17508 147 44_Fwd: TEMPLE MOUNT WALL IN DANGER OF COLLAPSE0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Sun, 19 Aug 2001 23:30:54 EDT17_US-ASCII

17656 137 53_Fwd: I wish someoone would prove me wrong!- To Dennis0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Sun, 19 Aug 2001 23:52:02 EDT66_US-ASCII Susie asked me to share her response to my letter. Dennis 17794 19 6_HELP!!0_15_DebALev@aol.com29_Mon, 20 Aug 2001 01:23:55 EDT499_US-ASCII Brian or whoever does the list admin stuff......a friend of mine signed up for Habonet but has been unable to sign on......please contact me off list!

Debbie

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 17814 28 29_The Walls of the Temple Mount17_Martin J. Goodman19_mgoodman@012.net.il31_Mon, 20 Aug 2001 14:11:47 +0200710_iso-8859-1 20 August 2001

For a purely historical and technical analysis of the stability of the walls of the temple mount, check out the following article by Professor Sam Freidman, who is the head of the Geotechnical Engineering Department at Technion University.

http://geotech.civen.okstate.edu/ejge/ppr9704/index.htm

marty goodman mgoodman@012.net.il



------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 17843 43 32_Re: Israel Solidarity Rally 9/230_18_Green88888@aol.com29_Mon, 20 Aug 2001 11:26:48 EDT541_US-ASCII Having ust returned from my son's wedding in Israel, it seems to me the Federations should sponsor a solidarity mission instead of a solidarity rally. The hotels are empty. Our hotel had 19 rooms filled out of a possible 140 the first weekend we were there. (The next week-end we brought in 41 guests filling another 19 rooms I think). The restaurants are empy. Tour guides and shop keepers are out of work. My cousin went to Yad Va Shem and counted five visitors. On a car ride from Jerusalem to Acco we counted one tour bus. [...] 17887 812 69_The Jerusalem Post Newspaper : Online News From Israel - News Article16_Judith R. Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Mon, 20 Aug 2001 14:19:41 -0400176_us-ascii Dear Chevreh-

Here is the Jerusalem Post article on Ami Cohen.

http://www.jpost.com/Editions/2001/08/20/News/News.32962.html

B'shalom- Judy Gelman 18700 103 22_Tell Me How Many Sons?12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Mon, 20 Aug 2001 22:13:58 +0200370_us-ascii ABRAHAM'S SONS The continuing development of a saga the rationale for the blowing of the ram's horn. "Rabi Abahu asked: 'why does one blow on a shofar from a ram? The Blessed One said: blow a shofar in my presence so that I will credit you with the binding of Abraham's son, Isaac, as though you had bound yourselves before me.' " Rosh Hashanah, 16 page 1 [...] 18804 20 22_Another tribute to Ami19_Orit Lowy Chicherio16_oritil@yahoo.com37_Mon, 20 Aug 2001 14:18:47 -0700 (PDT)527_us-ascii http://ctsnet.org/

__________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 18825 288 23_Re: HABONET digest 186410_Jon Zatkin26_jzatkin@public2.bta.net.cn37_Tue, 21 Aug 2001 20:08:49 +0800 (GMT)522_iso-8859-1 'Habonim Dror Alumni Virtual Machaneh' wrote: ==== - - HABONET Digest 1864 - - Topics covered in this issue include: - - 1) Fwd: observations about the middle east - by Ezra Gordon - 2) Fw: Off Topic: 53 websites about Israel (Independence Day is April 26) - by "Skolnik" - 3) Dave's bubbling desk - by "Skolnik" - 4) Re: observations about the middle east - by Smfgrappa@aol.com - 5) Baskin's Analysis - ...' > Take a look to the attachment. 19114 287 23_Re: HABONET digest 186510_Jon Zatkin26_jzatkin@public2.bta.net.cn37_Tue, 21 Aug 2001 20:11:03 +0800 (GMT)503_iso-8859-1 'Habonim Dror Alumni Virtual Machaneh' wrote: ==== - - HABONET Digest 1865 - - Topics covered in this issue include: - - 1) (no subject) - by "Leo Diesendruck" - 2) Re: Mallow's report - by "Yuval Warshai" - 3) Joe Glazer - by "Elihu D. Davison" - 4) yet another well thought out discourse on Islam, Pokemon and the Elders of Toys-R-Us (not HIV related) - by "Martin S." - > Take a look to the attachment. 19402 21 23_Re: HABONET digest 18640_15_DebALev@aol.com29_Tue, 21 Aug 2001 11:25:24 EDT528_US-ASCII Jon......this came to me as an attachment. I do not open attachments as a general rule. If it's possible, could you please cut and paste your message into an email? Thanks



Debbie

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 19424 26 29_Virus In Zatkin's Attachments13_aubrey jasper22_aubreyjasper@yahoo.com37_Tue, 21 Aug 2001 19:03:05 -0700 (PDT)632_us-ascii Chevre,

Jon Zatkin sent 2 emails to Habonet on 8/21, each with an attachment. I scanned the attachment with Norton Anti-Virus, which warned that the attachments are infected with a virus ( the "...Badtrans..." virus).

Of course, do not open the attachment.

Best,

Aubrey

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 19451 63 26_India durring the holidays12_Ilana Klamka15_ilana@jewny.com31_Wed, 22 Aug 2001 06:37:46 +0200310_Windows-1252 We are planning on traveling around southern India in the next couple of weeks. It looks as though we will probably be in India during Rosh Hashanah. Does anyone have any suggestions of hospitality/services in Southern India during the holidays? We are willing to travel up North if need be. [...] 19515 28 11_bone marrow16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Wed, 22 Aug 2001 10:01:51 -0400465_us-ascii The following notice was sent me. Listserve readers in Israel who can help here would be doing a real service.



Anat Sobeleman, the sister of Sari Sobelman from Kibbutz Harel has a deteriorating bone marrow disease and is in desparate need of blood donors (not with any specification). This sunday, August 26 at Migdal Levenstein in Tel Aviv , Derech Petach Tikva 23, 4th Fourth between 10:30 and 3.,there will a blood donation for her. [...] 19544 20 20_Arafat's Nobel prize13_Joel Winograd15_mail@jelaco.com31_Wed, 22 Aug 2001 11:17:24 -0500501_US-ASCII There is an organization at www.revoketheprize.com gathering names on a petition to revoke Arafat's Nobel Peace Prize. Anyone know of this group?

Joel Winograd

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 19565 29 26_Re: Tell Me How Many Sons?0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Wed, 22 Aug 2001 12:22:28 EDT486_ISO-8859-1 Dearest Amnon,

The Torah relates that Abraham took another wife after the death of Sarah and by her had additional sons and daughters. (Clearly a man worthy of even greater reverence and awe than he generally receives). As a person who finds many shortcomings in the drive of religion to self protect its priestly caste, and to self perpetuate its ritual and dogma, I find myself drawn ever more closely to Abraham and his commitment to the existance of one God. [...] 19595 23 26_Kibbutz Bar Am Info Needed11_Batel Libes19_batel@realmedia.com31_Wed, 22 Aug 2001 12:33:03 -0700516_iso-8859-1 Hi, Does anyone have information about this kibbutz? If so, please contact me directly.

Thanks, Batel

____________________________________________

Batel Libes

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 19619 394 48_More about Ami from Washington Jewish Week & JTA0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Thu, 23 Aug 2001 01:31:14 EDT411_US-ASCII









-----------------







EDITORS: The Washington Jewish Week has contributed the following story to the JTA electronic cooperative. It is available to all JTA member newspapers at no cost. If you run the piece, please use the byline and credit THE WASHINGTON JEWISH WEEK, and not JTA. Please note that JTA has NOT EDITED this story. [...] 20014 80 26_Re: Tell Me How Many Sons?17_Martin J. Goodman19_mgoodman@012.net.il31_Thu, 23 Aug 2001 09:41:39 +0200609_iso-8859-1 23 August 2001

In Habonet Digest 1976, Amnon tells us about the Y. Amichai's fictional-poetic version of the Akedah in which Abraham actually sacrificed a third son. There are other remarkable legends about the Akedah in Jewish literature which center around the following problematic verses from Genesis, Chapter 22.

[v. 10] And Abraham stretched out his hand and he took the knife in order to slaughter his son. [v. 11] And an angel of the LORD called to him from heaven and said, 'Abraham, Abraham', and he [Abraham] said, 'I am here'. [v. 12] And he [the angel] said, 'Don't [...] 20095 70 31_Re: Pension Training at Harvard0_29_benjamin_laden@peoplesoft.com31_Thu, 23 Aug 2001 10:36:11 -0400369_us-ascii

Hi Kristi, In PeopleSoft 8, we now have a class called PENSION that is 5 days long and covers the material that was in the old Building Pension in version 7.5. We are just about ready with the Admin Pension Class for version 8. If it is not out already, it will be soon. (If it is not, I can customize some materials for this onsite specifically) [...] 20166 20 5_Ooops0_29_benjamin_laden@peoplesoft.com31_Thu, 23 Aug 2001 11:42:27 -0400460_us-ascii Sorry folks. Unless you are interested in PeopleSoft Pension, I did not mean to send that out to Habonet. Sorry., Ben



------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 20187 27 26_Re: Tell Me How Many Sons?0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Thu, 23 Aug 2001 12:21:10 EDT580_ISO-8859-1 In verse 12 the translation reads, "your only son". Unless I missed something (very possible) Ishmael was Abraham's first born son, Issac his second. I won't go further because this episode seems clearly to come before Sarah's death and Abraham's later children. The angel would only be correct in referring to an "only son" if the angel was speaking to Sarah (or I suppose to Haggar). Does the Hebrew permit a different translation? Do the interpreter's of this section somehow discount Ishmael as Abraham's son (I wouldn't be surprised to find this chauvenism)? [...] 20215 17 47_For anyone who is politically savvy-Elihu D!!!!0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Thu, 23 Aug 2001 12:23:37 EDT475_US-ASCII Can anyone give me a little background on Mnty Warner and the Center for the Study of Popular Culture? You can email me direclty- thanks Sue

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 20233 42 26_Re: Tell Me How Many Sons?16_Judith R. Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Thu, 23 Aug 2001 12:40:02 -0400421_us-ascii Dear Amnon,

As much as I love and respect both you and Amichai, I just can't see using the poem and other legends as evidence of what happened actually 4 millennium ago.

Don't the Muslims tell the story of the Akedah but with Ishmael as the one offered and saved from sacrifice? Wouldn't that be strong evidence that Abraham took some son up and almost (but ultimately did not) sacrifice him? [...] 20276 21 26_Re: Tell Me How Many Sons?0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Thu, 23 Aug 2001 13:09:45 EDT397_ISO-8859-1 Hi Judy, I'm not sure I understand the track you are on. Abraham, as I understand it was a monotheis, a believer in a non-corporeal, non-representational creator and activator of all. And it was in recognition of his insight that God entered into a covenant with Abraham and by connection with his followers. Judiasm was came into being when Moses brought the Law down from Sinai. [...] 20298 103 26_Re: Tell Me How Many Sons?7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Thu, 23 Aug 2001 21:59:45 +0300575_iso-8859-1 Judy, shalom , Mohamed was influenced by Jews who told him bible stories and jewish history -- there were strong Jewish tribes in the Saudi desert around Mecca and Medina. So, the story of Ishmael's akedah was influenced by what he heard and learned from Jews, it is not proof of a particular event happening. There are other stories in the koran, based on Bible stories but with mixing up of names or a slight change in the story. If I remember correctly, Mohamed was illiterate, so he depended on memory rather than being able to read "the original," hence [...] 20402 26 26_Re: Tell Me How Many Sons?16_Judith R. Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Thu, 23 Aug 2001 17:18:17 -0400562_us-ascii Dear Dennis,

I always understood the story of the akedah in part as a commentary on the unacceptability of human sacrifice. I don't think I got that from thin air. Actually, I think first I got it in hebrew school, ages 8-13.

I think that establishing the Jews as a people where human sacrifice was not the supreme offering is very, very big and that is why I thought we read the portion about the akedah on the High Holidays. Here we are praying for our very lives and we read that God didn't accept Abraham's sacrifice of Isaac. To [...] 20429 74 37_Ami Cohen's work and the continuation14_The Bernhardts24_miriam_b@neve-ilan.co.il31_Fri, 24 Aug 2001 00:21:26 +0300578_us-ascii Dear friends, This morning I downloaded the article about Ami's work and then Joe and I went to make a shivah call at the Cohen household. (Family obligations had kept us from going until today.) Vadie and Dolores (Ami's parents) are from my generation of Habonim, and I've known them for some 55 years. While we were there, an officer from the American Embassy came in to see them, and find out if they needed any help. They started to tell him some of the stories of Ami's experiences, and it was totally fascinating. The funeral was attended by representatives [...] 20504 88 64_Re: Ami's Work and the Continuation of Save a Child's Heart Fund16_Judith R. Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Thu, 23 Aug 2001 17:46:41 -0400376_us-ascii Dear Chevreh-

If anyone is interested in helping figure out how to get funding for Ami's organization, please communicate directly with Vadie and Delores or go through Miriam Bernhardt. I was just collecting notes for Vadie and Delores, as requested by Shlomo. I very much appreciate Ami's work and hope it does continue, but I'm not in the loop on this. [...] 20593 34 34_Arafat and the Anatomy of a Revolt0_15_NEVETS2@aol.com29_Fri, 24 Aug 2001 01:25:02 EDT601_US-ASCII



Chevre, Shabat shalom

For those interested in the Palestinian perspective, I recommend an article available on the web site of the International Institute for Strategic Studies, London >www.iiss.org<.

Its rare that we hear Palestinian criticism that is not directed at Israel, but instead looks within.

I think it is the first critical article from inside the PA, written by a loyal Palestinian nationalist. A view very few of us get to see. Mature, well thought out, concerned criticism from within the leadership, Could this could herald a change? [...] 20628 1401 56_The Village Voice: Features: Refuseniks by Alisa Solomon16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Fri, 24 Aug 2001 04:38:35 -0400 22030 27 29_Re: American stores in Israel0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Fri, 24 Aug 2001 12:17:45 EDT376_US-ASCII The following is the list I have accumulated - and per Tanah's request I am posting it:

Motorola Gap The Second Cup (Canadian Coffee) Coca-Cola Toys R Us Subway McDonald's Office Depot Ben & Jerry's Burger King Hertz Tower Records Pizza Hut Avis Home Depot S'Barro's Pizza Ace Hardware KFC Domino's Pizza Best Buy Levi's/Dockers Maurice Valency Tiffany's [...] 22058 46 29_RE: American stores in Israel11_Steve Klein26_kleinsdesigns@socal.rr.com31_Fri, 24 Aug 2001 09:32:13 -0700690_us-ascii Sue

I've been away.

What is this list?

Steve

-----Original Message----- From: owner-habonet@shamash.org [mailto:owner-habonet@shamash.org]On Behalf Of LiberHawke@aol.com Sent: Friday, August 24, 2001 9:18 AM To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: Re: American stores in Israel



The following is the list I have accumulated - and per Tanah's request I am posting it:

Motorola Gap The Second Cup (Canadian Coffee) Coca-Cola Toys R Us Subway McDonald's Office Depot Ben & Jerry's Burger King Hertz Tower Records Pizza Hut Avis Home Depot S'Barro's Pizza Ace Hardware KFC Domino's Pizza Best Buy Levi's/Dockers Maurice Valency Tiffany's [...] 22105 19 45_Re: American stores in Israel For Steve Klein0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Fri, 24 Aug 2001 16:56:58 EDT546_US-ASCII Steve- I was "collecting" names of American businesses that do business in Israel (for our Exodus Project)- and Tanah was interested to see the list- in order that we may also patronize them here in America- Sue

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 22125 32 19_A Baltimore Request0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Fri, 24 Aug 2001 19:12:37 EDT590_US-ASCII On February 11, 1947, the play, "A Flag is Born," - written by Ben Hecht and music by Kurt Weil -which was produced buy the American League for a Free Palestine and had played on Broadway- and starred an 18-year-old Marlon Brando, Paul Muni, and the Adlers-, played at the Maryland Theatre in Baltimore to a crowd of congressmen, and, for the first time in Maryland history, a non-segregated audience. 10 Black people attended, and were "allowed" to sit wherever they wanted. The play was supposed to play at the National theater in Washington, but it was segregated, and the [...] 22158 129 12_tom friedman0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com29_Fri, 24 Aug 2001 21:46:53 EDT393_UTF-8 August 24, 2001

FOREIGN AFFAIRS A Way Out of the Middle East Impasse By THOMAS FRIEDMAN





Join a Discussion on Thomas L. Friedman's Columns





he Middle East conflict has gotten so violent and depressing, you wonder how the two sides can ever find a way out. We need a new idea. I'd like to propose one — but first some background. [...] 22288 167 21_Legends as Evidence ?12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Sat, 25 Aug 2001 12:53:48 +0200580_iso-8859-1 Judy you wrote , > I just can't see using the poem and other legends as evidence of what happened actually 4 millennium ago.

Consider the possibility that the poet Rahel holds out in V'Ulai. "Maybe these things never happened." Here are two assumptions. 1] Belief can only apply to what one can't prove. (That goes for miracles too -- which people of little faith need to buttress belief.) If one can prove a miracle - say, the parting of the Reed Sea - then God's Providence and involvement in history becomes *merely* a myth. Remember Herzl, Im tirzu ein [...] 22456 28 22_Re:legends of evidence16_Judith R. Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Sat, 25 Aug 2001 06:20:59 -0400325_us-ascii Dear Amnon-

I love the poetry.

I only disagree with what you say about miracles. The miracle of the Reed Sea is no less miraculous because it was a swampy area that our ancestors crossed at low tide. The miracle is all in the timing, not in the deus ex machine appearance of a supernatural being. [...] 22485 28 15_Email a friend.17_rbarland@mjds.org17_rbarland@mjds.org31_Sat, 25 Aug 2001 05:48:00 -0700575_US-ASCII



Hi! Your friend thought you would be interested in this article at Wiesenthal.com:



http://www.wiesenthal.com/social/press/pr_item.cfm?ItemID=3445





Thanks, Rosalind Barland





------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 22514 200 39_Re: tom friedman: the rest of the story13_aubrey jasper22_aubreyjasper@yahoo.com37_Sat, 25 Aug 2001 10:26:22 -0700 (PDT)424_us-ascii Chevre,

Tom Friedman's idea is appealing, but for the fact that NATO forces would be unable to stop cross-border terorism against Israel. However, they WOULD stop Israeli retaliatory raids against Jew-hating, Jew-killing Palestinians.

Thus, Jew-killers would be freed of the consequences of their actions. This would liberate them to kill more Jews than ever before, safe in NATO's fond embrace. [...] 22715 72 39_Re: tom friedman: the rest of the story0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com29_Sat, 25 Aug 2001 13:57:27 EDT637_US-ASCII In a message dated 8/25/01 1:27:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, aubreyjasper@yahoo.com writes:



> As you know, European governments, and the > Cheney/Bush/Exxon adminisration are no friends of > Israel.

I have yet to have anyone explain what the Bush administration has done to warrant this attack. I am no Bush lover, as regular readers of this list can testify, but I don't see this anti-Israel slant of this administration. Bush has just come out and said that no one can expect Israel to negotiate while terrorist acts continue. Bush is also refusing to attend the "Racism Conference" in South Africa [...] 22788 32 25_Re: Legends as Evidence ?0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Sat, 25 Aug 2001 13:58:00 EDT102_US-ASCII Amnon- How about a "dvar Torah" on the word "nes"- or the root "nun" "samech"-- susie

22821 25 11_Serendipity0_17_Geokat100@aol.com29_Sun, 26 Aug 2001 07:51:11 EDT631_US-ASCII In a message dated 8/25/01 10:05:04 PM Mountain Daylight Time, habonet@shamash.org writes:

<< The miracle is all in the timing >>



yes, and an educator I greatly respect once pointed out that serendipity is evidence of God's existence. I like that.

Kathy Moss Bradford

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 22847 81 33_the REST of the rest of the story13_aubrey jasper22_aubreyjasper@yahoo.com37_Sun, 26 Aug 2001 13:21:16 -0700 (PDT)591_us-ascii I agree with Richard as to the proper things which Bush has done. However, the primary reason for US objections to the big racism conference is that it's also being used as a forum to humiliate and extort the US by demanding "reparations" for slavery, which ended in the US, officially, in 1863 (see Emancipation Proclamation). Of course, the hostile extorters are not, as far as I know, demanding reparations for those currently enslaved in Sudan, or for child slave labor in India & Pakistan, or for political slave laborers in Red China. For these reasons, I agree with the [...] 22929 27 16_Beneath the Veil0_15_DebALev@aol.com29_Sun, 26 Aug 2001 18:07:40 EDT467_US-ASCII It's Sunday on the West Coast, so I'm watching CNN (West Coast means that the news programs like Meet the Press aren't available at a reasonable hour, and the only other programs seem to be golf tournaments......ho hum.)

There have been several promos for a program they are having tonight on the Taliban called "Beneath the Veil." It will be shown at 10 PM Eastern Time. >From what I've seen on these promo clips, I would STRONGLY recommend it. [...] 22957 173 38_Fw: Death for Blasphemy-Action Request29_Richard Steacy & Esther Cohen22_richard.steacy@gte.net31_Sun, 26 Aug 2001 21:31:55 -0400386_iso-8859-1 i know that petitions are not usually forwarded on the habonet list, but i wanted to give my chevre the opportunity to participate in this. if you go to the IHEU website at www.iheu.org , you'll note that the signatures on the petition are dated - and that this is a very current issue - the death penalty "awarded" (now that's a weird choice of words!) just last week. [...] 23131 43 11_A Good Deed11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org31_Mon, 27 Aug 2001 19:03:13 +0100574_us-ascii Please forward this to anyone who might be able to help!

Hi Friends. Do you eat breakfast cereal or do you know someone who does? Especially Kellogg's? Would you like to do an easy good deed that won't cost you more than 34 cents? Certain boxes of Kellogg's cereal have American Airlines AAdvantage Miles certificates on them. If you're not collecting them for your own use, rather than throwing them out, you can help a worthy cause by donating them to the Ziv Tzedakah Fund, who will use them to fly people around the country doing good deeds to help [...] 23175 30 26_Re: Tell Me How Many Sons?0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Tue, 28 Aug 2001 00:33:38 EDT24_US-ASCII I agree. Thanks 23206 259 49_Jewish Groups Say Victimized at U.N. Race Meeting16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Wed, 29 Aug 2001 07:50:39 -0400126_us-ascii

http://main2.infogate.com/content/content.php?feed=reuters&catkey=reu_worldnew&uniqueID=999081061948499&bid=1 23466 29 19_national geographic16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Wed, 29 Aug 2001 07:37:00 -0400456_us-ascii Please visit the National Geographic website ("The Map Machine").

http://plasma.nationalgeographic.com/mapmachine/

This is a nifty tool. You can use it to look up a map for any site on earth. Regrettably, however, when you enter "Jerusalem" into the search engine, you will quickly discover that the National Geographic Society does not consider Jerusalem to be part of Israel. Tel Aviv is Israel, but Jerusalem is "stateless." [...] 23496 55 37_Re: the REST of the rest of the story11_Noam Stopak26_n.stopak@scienceserver.com31_Wed, 29 Aug 2001 09:53:15 -0400366_us-ascii

aubrey jasper wrote:

> ... > However, the US has engaged in a despicable tendency > to make pronouncements which appear to postulate a > moral equivalence between Arab pizza-parlor mass > murder and Israeli response to terrorism.

I have to agree with Aubrey on this.

Here's a note I sent to the State Department yesterday: [...] 23552 37 23_Re: national geographic10_Ori Siegel17_oris@interlog.com31_Wed, 29 Aug 2001 11:52:52 -0400391_us-ascii At 07:37 AM 2001-08-29 -0400, Elihu D. Davison wrote: >Regrettably, however, ...Jerusalem is "stateless."

Could this be the SAME National Geographic that saw nothing wrong with one of its authors interviewing and quoting a neo-nazi (Ernst Zundel) on the racial components of Toronto?

>You may wish to consider this when it comes time to renew your >subscription. [...] 23590 16 37_Re: the REST of the rest of the story0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Wed, 29 Aug 2001 12:22:49 EDT608_ISO-8859-1 I find myself in that uncomfortable position of being a pro-zionist American Jew. I don't take issue with your concern but I recognize a difference between individual acts of members of a nationalist group and the state sponsored acts of a national government. It is the standard and I thing generally appropriate province of government to comment on the behavior of states in a way that is different from the way in which it addresses, if at all, act of individual criminality, whether terroristic in nature, or nationistically motivated. There may be a double standard at work here, but if [...] 23607 18 37_Re: the REST of the rest of the story0_15_DebALev@aol.com29_Wed, 29 Aug 2001 12:27:40 EDT546_ISO-8859-1 Noam, I too would be interested in the answers to these questions. I'll appreciate it if you post the response you get on Habonet, buy my guess is that it will be a form letter that says nothing.

Debbie

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 23626 216 137_=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Fwd:=20Fw:=20=E4=F2=E1=F8=E4:=20Subj:=20[Israel-C?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?ommentary]=20Amazon.com=20Are=20you=20kidding=20me=3F?=0_16_BERNSARA@aol.com29_Wed, 29 Aug 2001 13:33:08 EDT683_US-ASCII Is this really so?? Amazon.com is supporting the Intifada? How do we verify this?? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------- Now watch them backtrack and "explain"

> > A good friend of mine, Dr. H. Schlussel, while searching the > Internet ran across Intifada.com. OK. Then he sees a promotion right on > their > web page by Amazon.com advising the readers that: > > "You can buy books about the Intifada and Palestine from Amazon.com. > All profits from the referral will go to developing Intifada.com." > How great! I would assume that this pretty well eliminates Amazon. com > as a book [...] 23843 19 19_Re: Fwd: Amazon.com0_20_dfleiss@pipeline.com31_Wed, 29 Aug 2001 13:48:48 -0400320_- BERNSARA@aol.com wrote: > Is this really so?? Amazon.com is supporting the Intifada? How do we verify > this??

Oh, come on. Anybody can sign up to get a referral fee when they post a link to Amazon.com on their website. I know of several Jewish groups that raise money be referring visitors to Amazon.com. [...] 23863 66 136_=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20Fw:=20=E4=F2=E1=F8=E4:=20Subj:=20[Israel-Co?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?mmentary]=20Amazon.com=20Are=20you=20kidding=20me=3F?=0_15_DebALev@aol.com29_Wed, 29 Aug 2001 13:54:58 EDT640_US-ASCII In a message dated 8/29/01 10:34:39 AM Pacific Daylight Time, BERNSARA@aol.com writes:

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > --------------------------- > Now watch them backtrack and "explain" > > > > > A good friend of mine, Dr. H. Schlussel, while searching the > > Internet ran across Intifada.com. OK. Then he sees a promotion right on > > their > > web page by Amazon.com advising the readers that: > > > > "You can buy books about the Intifada and Palestine from Amazon.com. > > All profits from the referral will go to developing Intifada.com." > > How great! I [...] 23930 20 122_=?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Fw:_=E4=F2=E1=F8=E4:_Subj:_=5BIsrael-Commentary=5D?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?_Amazon.com_Are_you_kidding_me=3F?=11_Batel Libes19_batel@realmedia.com31_Wed, 29 Aug 2001 11:13:45 -0700512_iso-8859-1 I just went to http://www.intifada.com/ and instead of getting a page about the uprising, got a page saying: Shalom from Israel! You have been hacked by m0sad ;).

Batel

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 23951 331 105_=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Fwd:=20Fw:=20=E4=F2=E1=F8=E4:=20Subj:=20[Israel-C?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?ommentary]=20Amazon.c?=0_15_DebALev@aol.com29_Wed, 29 Aug 2001 14:40:56 EDT348_US-ASCII Does anyone know this Sue Freeman? She sent me something to download, and after I have told her a number of times that I do NOT open downloads, she continues to send it to me.

In this note, I asked her to stop. And what did she do? She immediately sent it back to me with the same old message: > Take a look to the attachment. [...] 24283 45 33_Beware: Messages from Sue Freeman11_Batel Libes19_batel@realmedia.com31_Wed, 29 Aug 2001 11:46:09 -0700481_iso-8859-1 Hi, I think Sue's email has been attacked. It's a smart one since it tells you that you had sent a virus, which you did not, and thus leads you to think her stuff is safe. DO NOT OPEN anything from these messages.

Batel

____________________________________________

Batel Libes Director, Education Services Real Media 2180 Bryant St. San Francisco, CA 94107 Ph: 415.643.5071 ext. 213 Cell: 415.637.4791 Fx: 415.643.7484 http://www.realmedia.com [...] 24329 71 82_=?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Fwd:_Fw:_=E4=F2=E1=F8=E4:_Subj:_[Israel-C?= ommentary] Amazon.c14_Paul Fingerman29_paul.fingerman@mindspring.com31_Wed, 29 Aug 2001 11:47:25 -0700542_iso-8859-1 Debbie, the attachment is infected with the badtrans macro virus.

Paul

At 02:40 PM 8/29/01 -0400, you wrote: >Does anyone know this Sue Freeman? She sent me something to download, and >after I have told her a number of times that I do NOT open downloads, she >continues to send it to me. > >In this note, I asked her to stop. And what did she do? She immediately >sent it back to me with the same old message: > Take a look to the >attachment. > >ARRRRRRGH > >If anyone is her friend, please ask her to STOP IT. [...] 24401 299 13_The situation5_YIGAL18_ysela@inter.net.il31_Wed, 29 Aug 2001 21:45:00 +0200464_windows-1255 29/8/01 Machanayim

It has been a while since I last expressed my thoughts on this list serve with regards to the situation in Israel today. The upcoming debates , once again equating Zionism to Racism and the questions and comments being sounded here have caused me to feel that I must make some effort to try to explain to many of you out there in the States how you seem to have a wrong interpretation on all that is happening out here. [...] 24701 18 110_=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20Fw:=20=E4=F2=E1=F8=E4:=20Subj:=20[Israel-C=20?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=20ommentary]=20Amazon.c?=0_15_DebALev@aol.com29_Wed, 29 Aug 2001 14:49:21 EDT400_US-ASCII Thanks, Paul. It's a new one for me...........yuck.

Debbie

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 24720 42 30_URGENT: Brian's address needed11_Batel Libes19_batel@realmedia.com31_Wed, 29 Aug 2001 11:52:32 -0700855_iso-8859-1 Can someone, please, forward me Brian's address a.s.a.p.

Thanks, Batel

____________________________________________

Batel Libes Director, Education Services Real Media 2180 Bryant St. San Francisco, CA 94107 Ph: 415.643.5071 ext. 213 Cell: 415.637.4791 Fx: 415.643.7484 http://www.realmedia.com

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Real Media is a PubliGroupe company - the largest and oldest media services organization in the world. Real Media provides marketing solutions to the digital advertising industry through state of the art technology, maximizing brand value by protecting audience information. Real Media's customers include Bloomberg, Weather.com, New York Times Digital, U.S. News & World Report, GOLFONLINE, Investors.com, Forbes, USA Today and mp3.com. For more information [...] 24763 93 28_removal from this list serve5_YIGAL18_ysela@inter.net.il31_Wed, 29 Aug 2001 22:05:00 +0200307_windows-1255 F.A.O. the person who runs this list serve

Just an hour ago I sent a piece that expressed my thoughts about the situation out here in Israel. I didn't expect everyone to agree with it; but I did believe that free speech was one of the major amendments of the American Constitution. [...] 24857 25 32_Re: removal from this list serve0_15_DebALev@aol.com29_Wed, 29 Aug 2001 15:11:08 EDT476_US-ASCII Yigal, viruses happen. It might very well be that Sue Freeman has no idea that something like this is being sent out via her computer. Some viruses work like that......they apparently attach to your email and send out an email to everyone in your address book.

The computer mavens can explain it better, but I think it isn't fair for you to take this personally........I got them too, but I never open attachments, and this is a great example of why not. [...] 24883 70 17_removal from list5_YIGAL18_ysela@inter.net.il31_Wed, 29 Aug 2001 22:24:57 +0200397_windows-1255 having received the following......I will reconsider my request to leave the list serve



Yigal Sela







Please reconsider your decision to leave the mailing list.

Sue Freeman is obviously infected with a virus herself -- the virus is propogating itself by sending infected messages to everybody who posted on Habonet today.

David 24954 325 17_Re: The situation7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Thu, 30 Aug 2001 00:15:14 +0300612_windows-1255

----- Original Message ----- From: YIGAL To: Habonet@Shamash. Org Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2001 10:45 PM Subject: The situation



29/8/01 Machanayim

It has been a while since I last expressed my thoughts on this list serve with regards to the situation in Israel today. The upcoming debates , once again equating Zionism to Racism and the questions and comments being sounded here have caused me to feel that I must make some effort to try to explain to many of you out there in the States how you seem to have a wrong interpretation on all that is happening out [...] 25280 65 5_Virus11_Sue Freeman19_sfreeman@cfl.rr.com31_Wed, 29 Aug 2001 19:01:55 -0400514_iso-8859-1 For all of you who have gotten messages from me with an attachment, I sincerely apologize. I HAVE NOT sent these messages. How they got posted, I don't know. Only thing I can think of is that somehow it got on the habonet site and is automatically sent. Since I don't know how to correct the problem, someone will be correcting the problem Friday morning. Am saving various messages so as to hopefully give this individual an idea of what has been happening and then tell me what needs to be done. [...] 25346 32 37_Re: the REST of the rest of the story11_Noam Stopak26_n.stopak@scienceserver.com31_Wed, 29 Aug 2001 19:07:06 -0400615_us-ascii

DLerner569@aol.com wrote:

> I find myself in that uncomfortable position of being a pro-zionist American Jew.

You seem to be implying that I am either not pro-zionist, not American or not Jewish. What are you trying to say here?

> I don't take issue with your concern but I recognize a difference between individual acts of members of a nationalist group and the state sponsored acts of a national government. It is the standard and I thing generally appropriate province of government to comment on the behavior of states in a way that is different from the way in which [...] 25379 126 9_Re: Virus20_Gayle, Mark and Ayah16_sarazen@home.com31_Wed, 29 Aug 2001 19:17:04 -0400558_iso-8859-1 Sue, I work for a network security software company in Canada. It appears to me that your computer has been infected with a virus. Until it is fixed, it will continue to send out mails to people that you have sent mail to in the past. These viruses draw from one's address book, and randomly send mail out with attachments that are infected. The only way to protect anyone who is in your address book until the problem is rectified, is to unplug yourself from the internet connection. As long as you are unplugged, there is no danger, as the [...] 25506 24 5_virus16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Thu, 30 Aug 2001 05:01:13 -0400508_us-ascii Yigal: The virus which from Sue Freeman is apparently being sent from her computer automatically, without her doing anything. Indeed, she herself probably didn't even know that her computer's been sending out the virus; that's the way these clever devils work. Hopefully, someone in Habonet-land will know how to contact her personally, to ask her to clean up her machine. The Sue Freeman virus is not an adequate excuse for unsubscribing from Habonet. We refuse to accept your unsubscription. [...] 25531 99 21_letters to the gov't.16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Thu, 30 Aug 2001 05:06:56 -0400673_us-ascii Bruce Arbit of Milwaukee and once upon a time of Gesher Haziv, sent the following letter to Colin Powell. He is eloquent. ---------- To: "'Secretary@state.gov'"







On August 28, 2001 the Spokesman for the State Department, Mr. Richard Boucher said in his afternoon press briefing " With regard to the situation in Gilo and Beit Jala, let me be clear. The Palestinians need to stop the shootings and attacks against Israelis in Gilo and elsewhere. The Palestinian Authority must exercise its authority if it is serious about ending the current crisis and moving to the implementation of the Mitchell Committee [...] 25631 42 103_Re: Fwd: Fw: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=E4=F2=E1=F8=E4?=: Subj: [Israel-Commentary] Amazon.com Are you kidding me?11_Noam Stopak26_n.stopak@scienceserver.com31_Thu, 30 Aug 2001 08:28:28 -0400692_us-ascii Try visiting amazon.com and/or intifada.com and look around?

BERNSARA@aol.com wrote:

> Is this really so?? Amazon.com is supporting the Intifada? How do we verify > this?? > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > --------------------------- > Now watch them backtrack and "explain" > > >> >> A good friend of mine, Dr. H. Schlussel, while searching the >> Internet ran across Intifada.com. OK. Then he sees a promotion right on >> their >> web page by Amazon.com advising the readers that: >> >> "You can buy books about the Intifada and Palestine from Amazon.com. >> All profits from the referral will go to developing [...] 25674 33 37_Re: the REST of the rest of the story11_Noam Stopak26_n.stopak@scienceserver.com31_Thu, 30 Aug 2001 08:32:46 -0400385_us-ascii (I thought I sent this yesterday, but I never received it back from Habonet. Apologies if you receive duplicates - Noam)

DLerner569@aol.com wrote:

> I find myself in that uncomfortable position of being a pro-zionist American Jew.

You seem to be implying that I am either not pro-zionist, not American or not Jewish. What are you trying to say here? [...] 25708 17 37_Re: the REST of the rest of the story0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Thu, 30 Aug 2001 09:46:39 EDT563_ISO-8859-1 none of the above. I was apologizing for finding myself in disagreement with the premise of your message to the Sec of State. there is a difference between individual acts or group acts, and state acts. If the US treats Palestinian terrorism as a state act, it tacitly recognizes the Palestinian state. Neither can it be ignored. It seems to me that our government treads a very fine line, and that your concern about bias will help to keep them on their toes, but will not shift the balance and frankly, I'm saying, as an American and a Jew, I'm [...] 25726 17 25_Re: letters to the gov't.0_18_DLerner569@aol.com29_Thu, 30 Aug 2001 09:55:07 EDT515_ISO-8859-1 excellent, til the last line. My congrats to Bruce for laying out the reality of the Palestinian strategy, and for using Colin Powell's words to support Israel's response. Dennis

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 25744 18 19_unsubscribe habonet20_Deborah Tanzer-Cohen15_candeb@juno.com31_Thu, 30 Aug 2001 22:20:27 +080019_iso-8859-1

25763 30 24_Speaking truth to Powell13_aubrey jasper22_aubreyjasper@yahoo.com37_Thu, 30 Aug 2001 18:51:14 -0700 (PDT)669_us-ascii Dear Noam,

Thanks for your note of agreement. I really appreciate it!

Your note to Colin Powell was terrific! Each observation was accurate and right on point.

I LOVED your suggestion that the State Department advise all US citizens to avoid close proximity to terrorists! Sound advice!

Best,

Aubrey

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 25794 28 28_Re: Speaking truth to Powell0_15_DebALev@aol.com29_Thu, 30 Aug 2001 21:56:52 EDT396_US-ASCII In a message dated 8/30/01 6:52:03 PM Pacific Daylight Time, aubreyjasper@yahoo.com writes:

> > I LOVED your suggestion that the State Department > advise all US citizens to avoid close proximity to > terrorists! Sound advice!



Well, this IS something I always try to do........good to know that we're getting such great advice for the money we pay these guys. [...] 25823 266 135_=?iso-8859-1?B?4fLw6envOiBGdzog5PLh+OQ6IFN1Ymo6IFtJc3JhZWwtQ29tbWVudGFy?= =?iso-8859-1?B?eV0gQW1hem9uLmNvbSBBcmUgeW91IGtpZGRpbmcgbWU/?=8_ericmoli25_ericmoli@netvision.net.il31_Fri, 31 Aug 2001 22:56:07 +0200508_iso-8859-1 Dear Jerome,

Thank you for sending habonet the information below. It shock and saddened me Here is but another company run by cowards, who, due to their avaricious nature pay homage to a body of people who advocate debase human behavior, lies, materal power and sanctimonious properganda. It's a pity that our famous "Jewish Brain" hasn't taught us how to explain our case so that people will listen to us. It's a pity that there is NO ONE OUT THERE to teach us the art of propaganda. [...]