1 SHAMASH.ORG /usr/www/wwwhc/listserv/archives/habonet April 2001 2 49 16_Mothers and fear13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Sun, 01 Apr 2001 01:11:16 -0500458_us-ascii Dear Chevreh-

Welcome back, Sam!

My heart goes out to Pearl.

Not knowing if your child is dead or alive is horrible and it shouldn't happen to any mother, Jewish or Palestinian. Certainly most of the Jews who have died are innocent civilians. But not every Palestinian who has died is a terrorist. Among their many dead is an 8 year old shot dead in his own bedroom. His mother mourns him and my heart goes out to her too. [...] 52 58 58_protest letter against bombardment of Abu Sneineh - Hebron13_julia chaitin20_jchaitin@urim.org.il30_Sun, 1 Apr 2001 09:12:00 -0000403_iso-8859-8-i >From Julia Chaitin

I am enclosing an example of a letter that can be sent to the Prime Minister, Minister of Defense and Minister of Foreign Affairs for those of you who would like your voice to be heard protesting the seige against the Abu Sneineh neighborhood in Hebron and the continued settlement of Jewish radical extremists in Hebron. The addresses of the ministers are: [...] 111 56 13_answer to Sam7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il30_Sun, 1 Apr 2001 10:01:00 +0300529_iso-8859-1 Sam, Hard to answer such a letter... Why do you only read what reflects your values? Should you not learn what others think and evaluate objectively what they say? What I and others write is not necessarily reflective of our values but of an ugly reality that we live with. What are you afraid of? If you are so sure of your value system you should be able to answer others and take them to task or prove your point. If you are a liberal you should be able to read and evaluate other points of view and take them [...] 168 42 43_Re: Flak jacket or helmet? Pearl's Choice.-0_13_SC523@aol.com28_Sun, 1 Apr 2001 03:37:01 EDT589_US-ASCII

In a message dated 3/31/1 1:43:57 PM, LiberHawke@aol.com quotes Pearl as saying:

<< There was a book "sophie's Choice." Now, I shall have to write a > book: "Pearl's Choice." >>

I'm sorry Susie, and I'm sorry Pearl, but I don't find that this letter makes me more sympathetic to Pearl's children,Yoram and Mira,'s situation at all. And l'havdil - there is no way that Pearl's situation compares to Sophie's situation during the horrors of the Shoah - the choice having been between which of Sophie's 2 children she would choose to live. Not even close. [...] 211 37 18_Re: Dear World....13_avi rosenberg16_avi@gezer.org.il31_Sun, 01 Apr 2001 16:15:07 +0200311_us-ascii I have news for you Yigal and your unsigned friend (unsigned letters are really annoying and truly self defeating). Most of the rest of the world couldn't care less either. For most of the rest of the world we're just another item on the evening news, along there with Borneo and Mad Cow Disease. [...] 249 58 43_Re: Flak jacket or helmet? Pearl's Choice.-13_avi rosenberg16_avi@gezer.org.il31_Sun, 01 Apr 2001 16:50:14 +0200603_us-ascii Aliya, your response has made me feel somewhat uncomfortable. Although I usually find Pearl's postings extreme and over dramatic, I don't think they deserve to be called diatribes. The situation here happens to be quite exteme and I don't believe the discussions on Habonet can always be sweetness and fun. Pearl's issues aren't six months old - they are a hundred years old and we go over and over them every day of our lives. The government has always promoted settlement across the green line. Many people live there for economic reasons, because it has always been an attractive place [...] 308 72 21_Not to perpetuate....0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com28_Sun, 1 Apr 2001 12:18:08 EDT582_US-ASCII In a message dated 4/1/01 12:38:14 AM Pacific Daylight Time, SC523@aol.com writes:



> I joined Habonet to hear good discussion of heartfelt > issues and good debate and sometimes good old-fashioned sharing and camp > memories and fun, but not to hear diatribes like Pearl writes for > paragraphs > at a time. > > Dearest Aliya! In your opinion - if trying to understand the emotional state of our chevre in Israel who are facing death at every moment isn't a subject for this venue- then I am a little shocked. I only posted the piece from Pearl because [...] 381 75 20_RE: Mothers and fear11_Carol Shore21_c_shore@ix.netcom.com30_Sun, 1 Apr 2001 13:09:24 -0400396_iso-8859-1 Thank you Judy for your wise words. As we prepare to remember Yitziat Mitzrayim, as we outside Israel shop and clean and sing silly frog songs and cook, our hearts go out to all moms, Israeli and Palestinian, who cannot enjoy the many ordinary things we daily take so for granted, who tremble in fear for their children's safety. A life of fear is a life of slavery, not freedom. [...] 457 37 28_Pearl's letter and responses14_The Bernhardts24_miriam_b@neve-ilan.co.il31_Sun, 01 Apr 2001 20:03:47 +0300565_us-ascii In general, I disagree with Pearl's political outlook. Under no circumstances would I have been willing to settle over the Green Line. However----Joe and I were downtown (in Jerusalem) a few days ago when there had been an explosion and several bombs discovered. While we were eating a late lunch, someone came in and said that there had been an explosion at the Central Bus Station. This was at an hour when Zvi or Debbie or either of their boys could have been getting a bus home to Bet Shemesh. I immediately got on the cellular phone to check out [...] 495 97 21_Not to perpetuate....0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com28_Sun, 1 Apr 2001 13:40:04 EDT17_US-ASCII

593 124 25_Re: Not to perpetuate....0_15_DebALev@aol.com28_Sun, 1 Apr 2001 15:01:32 EDT552_US-ASCII In a message dated 4/1/01 10:41:04 AM Pacific Daylight Time, LiberHawke@aol.com writes:



> Dearest Aliya! > In your opinion - if trying to understand the emotional state of our chevre > in Israel who are facing death at every moment isn't a subject for this > venue- then I am a little shocked. I only posted the piece from Pearl > because > I felt we needed a little balance. > The story f the two kids riding their bikes on French Hill was not a > political statement, but a statement of fact- I certainly don't want to > [...] 718 74 18_Re: protest letter12_Doug Greener25_ddwgreen@netvision.net.il30_Sun, 1 Apr 2001 21:09:47 +0300557_iso-8859-8-i 1) Will someone please explain to me why Pearl Scolnik's posting about burying dead suicide bombers in a pigskin wrapper drew such a hostile reaction: words which I have not seen before on the Habonet (and which probably don't even exist). In my opinion, if it works, if it can stop suicide bombers, it should be used. By a simple action, in which no one is hurt (except the pig), the phenomenon of suicide bombing can be stopped. Why not try? By the way, I must say that I believe it won't work. I doubt if today's "Islamic kamikaze" are [...] 793 94 43_Re: Flak jacket or helmet? Pearl's Choice.-7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il30_Sun, 1 Apr 2001 23:52:21 +0300557_iso-8859-1 By all means Aliya move on.....to "good heartfelt issues" like.... Move on to kumsitzes and the tree at the lake and important issues like petitions against Israel. I am living in the here and now of Israel. I do not live over the Green Line, I live in Jerusalem. And people are being attacked near my home and I hear gunfire when in Kiryat Moshe at the entrance to Jerusalem (inside Green Line). My son Yossi lives in Jerusalem too, but passes the places where attacks take place. None of us are safe. Zionism today is also living in those [...] 888 58 17_dead baby picture13_aubrey jasper22_aubreyjasper@yahoo.com36_Sun, 1 Apr 2001 15:40:49 -0700 (PDT)431_us-ascii It is a simple matter to justify broadcasting a photo

of a dead baby, killed by a hater of Jews. Emotions run high, and political reasons abound.

It is a simple matter to justify NOT broadcasting a photo of a dead baby. Emotions run high, and political reasons abound.

In addition, there appears to be, on Habonet, a tradition of character assasination of those with whom one disagrees strongly. [...] 947 27 15_A favor for Sam0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com28_Sun, 1 Apr 2001 23:36:19 EDT277_US-ASCII I know I have not been around Habonet much, but I could really use a small favor from you all. I have posted one song on a site called MP3.com. It does not cost money to log in but if you do log in and listen for three minutes to the song we could get royalties. [...] 975 50 19_Re: A favor for Sam0_15_DebALev@aol.com28_Sun, 1 Apr 2001 23:38:21 EDT300_US-ASCII In a message dated 4/1/01 8:36:47 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Smfgrappa@aol.com writes:



> Granted this is not as exciting as the big moral issues of the day but its > fun and harmless





AND......as everything else on his CD, IT'S A GREAT SONG!

Debbie 1026 102 43_Re: interesting thought from Micha Liberman0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com28_Mon, 2 Apr 2001 03:11:12 EDT579_US-ASCII My name is Micha Liberman, son of Susan and Dov Liberman, both of whom are life time habonim members. My mother showed me the "interesting thought email" and some of the responses to it, because I had mentioned this idea to her in the past. This idea has been floating around for quite a while. What it does is create an atmosphere where the terrorists do not want to commit suicide bombings because there "Key to heaven" will be revoked. Apparently people like Julia Chaiten would rather mourn the death of more innocent Jewish babies than learn to understand the [...] 1129 82 26_unsubscribing from habonet13_julia chaitin20_jchaitin@urim.org.il30_Mon, 2 Apr 2001 18:09:08 -0000537_iso-8859-1

My main reason for joining the habonet was in order to find friends from the past. I found some - and that was great.

Since joining the list, I have been horrified at some of the messages that are sent under the guise "here is a different point of view - let's be open-minded..." . I am well aware of the fact that most of my political opinions are more left wing than most people that I know - both in Israel and abroad. Even though I wish that more people shared my views, since I believe that they have [...] 1212 56 30_Re: unsubscribing from habonet0_14_LHIAM1@aol.com28_Mon, 2 Apr 2001 12:24:44 EDT409_US-ASCII Julia Chaitin,

Julia though I don't know you personally you will be missed on this list certainly by me and I am sure many many others. I recognize you... you are one of the few people whom I see when I turn my head left as well and there are not enough of us out here. I am sorry that so much hate has flown on these cyber waves that we call a Virtual Ken ... it certainly doesn't sound [...] 1269 54 18_Recent Discussions11_Batel Libes19_batel@realmedia.com30_Mon, 2 Apr 2001 10:37:47 -0700546_iso-8859-1 Julia, please don't leave the discussion. I have often been told on this list that by living in the US I cannot comprehend the situation and fear those who live in Israel do (what a "polite" way to tell me to shut up and have such opinions silenced). Voices like yours, Amnon, and many others are our only opportunity to show that there are those living within Israel who do not agree with Pearl and her ideas. If you depart, people who post and will continue to post racist statements would have their own kind of terrorism win. [...] 1324 77 22_RE: Recent Discussions12_Fine, Sharon14_FineS@MLHS.ORG30_Mon, 2 Apr 2001 13:45:37 -0400556_- Since I have frequently criticized Pearl's attitude, I think it only fair that I jump in here, as well. I may disagree with Pearl about a lot of things, but I don't find the fact that she expresses her feelings on habonet offensive. What I've criticized her for is her attitude that her way is the only way, etc. Julia, I find you guilty of the same thing. Your attitude that someone whose ideas are far removed from yours should have been kicked off this listserv is extremely offensive to me. What I appreciate about habonet is the opportunity to [...] 1402 45 43_Re: interesting thought from Micha Liberman8_Ephraims14_cbma@erols.com31_Mon, 02 Apr 2001 21:43:11 +0000599_us-ascii

So you think it was pretty smart of the Assyrians to send pigs through the temple? Choosing a path that is so repugnant which in fact served to heighten the resolve of the guerilla fighters?

On the second hand, I don't think fouling today's terrorists with pigskin will change anything. People who kill doctors who perform abortions are so infused with the glory of their mission that they miss the point - they are willing to murder people they feel don't value life enough. Today's terrorists have been nurtured by their fear & hatred & displacement (I don't think it [...] 1448 19 43_Re: interesting thought from Micha Liberman0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com28_Mon, 2 Apr 2001 23:19:41 EDT283_US-ASCII It don't uglier than this. What have we come to? What has happenned to us. Thank god for the Julia Chatin's of the world. Unbelable that she would have her name dragged through the mud like this in public. Thank you Julia for speaking out and giving us a wake up call. [...] 1468 87 17_voices on mideast0_15_NEVETS2@aol.com28_Mon, 2 Apr 2001 23:32:17 EDT471_US-ASCII Chevre, Shalom

Received this post from Carol Shore, Philadelphia LZA stalwart, just to name one of her current contributions to the Movement. She's our Philly LZA rep to the local JCRC, among other hats.

Chance to do hasbara for the Peace Process, if we can still use that term.

But there's nothing to say that a Labor Zionist from outside the City of Brotherly love might not be interested in taking a crack at this hasbara challenge. [...] 1556 19 13_dancing in DC12_Fine, Sharon14_FineS@MLHS.ORG30_Tue, 3 Apr 2001 00:14:20 -0400614_- In 2 weeks, I'll be temporarily moving to Chevy Chase MD. If anyone knows of Israeli dancing nearby, please send info to theyreso@hotmail.com Please don't just reply, as I won't have access to this address for 2 months, starting tonight. Thank you, and maybe I'll see you there! -Sharon

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 1576 128 11_Monthly FAQ12_Jennifer Kay19_kay@elvis.rowan.edu31_Tue, 03 Apr 2001 02:32:03 -0400421_- Actually-from:BCooper@descartes.com

Hi Chevre,

Here is a reminder of the "essential" commands that you can use to configure your subscription to Habonet. I will post this monthly from now on. Please note -- The address for commands is: listproc@shamash.org whereas the address for posts to the list is: habonet@shamash.org If you need any help with any of it, send me an email: BCooper@descartes.com [...] 1705 15 17_Re: dancing in DC0_16_SMG54321@aol.com28_Tue, 3 Apr 2001 06:56:49 EDT335_US-ASCII

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 1721 19 17_Re: dancing in DC0_16_SMG54321@aol.com28_Tue, 3 Apr 2001 07:00:50 EDT554_US-ASCII Dear Sharon, There is Israeli Dancing at Adas Israel every Tuesday night it is run by Helen Rubin. Adas Israel is located on Connecticut and Porter. Beginners start at 7:30 and intermediate start at 8:30. Have fun Ilana

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 1741 224 43_RE: interesting thought from Micha Liberman11_Jamie Levin22_mazkir@habonimdror.org30_Tue, 3 Apr 2001 11:24:43 -0400600_iso-8859-1 I am appalled by the thoughts concerning solutions to terrorist violence that have been expressed over the Habonet in the last week. Beyond simple ignorance of the facts surrounding the Intifadah they represent a hate filled attitude that I didn't think could stem from a Habonim Dror upbringing. As Mazkir Tnua I would be ashamed to hear one of my chanichim espouse such ideas. The Palestinian masses have engaged in a popular uprising despite Arafat and his cronies. They have chosen the path of armed struggle and terrorism to end an occupation that we in the peace camp have also [...] 1966 191 43_Re: interesting thought from Micha Liberman0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com28_Tue, 3 Apr 2001 12:44:35 EDT575_ISO-8859-1 I feel I need to respond to some of what Shelly said to and about me and my Ideas. She began her letter with this statement.

"So you think it was pretty smart of the Assyrians to send pigs through the temple?" Shelly, I am certain that you see the difference between defiling another religion's holy sites and using someone's personal moral system to convince him to stop murdering children. Neither I nor Pearl suggested that we go into Moslem temples or Holy sites and defile them in any way. Neither I nor Pearl suggested that we interfere with the [...] 2158 75 43_Re: interesting thought from Micha Liberman14_Holtzer Family20_carmdave@urim.org.il30_Tue, 3 Apr 2001 20:12:17 +0200627_iso-8859-1 An interesting note about your letter, without discussing the "right" or "wrong" of it......:

A number of years ago, the British were embroiled in Sudan. (QUITE a few years ago) Their response to terrorism was to harness the Koran in their favor. Seems that suicide bombers beleive that they go directly to heaven where they are surrounded by heavenly "bodies" (female).... however, if their bodies, or what's left of them, are buried with pigs, they never get to enter heaven. Their graves were prepared in secret, of course, but well photographed by the British authorities and posted widely in Sudan. [...] 2234 72 50_JUST thought that should have been sent a year ago0_16_BERNSARA@aol.com28_Tue, 3 Apr 2001 17:02:31 EDT468_US-ASCII I thought about writing this when Hebron was first divided into a Jewish and an Arab city. I do not know if it is relative now. However I would like your thoughts.

The city of Hebron was positioned in the Arab (Palestinian ) sector. Some Jews wanted to remain or settle in Hebron , as was their right. The Israeli government in all it"s wisdom decided to honor and support this idea by partioning the city and sending troops to enforce this idea. [...] 2307 16 23_Re: HABONET digest 18390_18_Judithb253@aol.com28_Tue, 3 Apr 2001 22:13:53 EDT398_US-ASCII pick on someone your own size and let Pearl alone for a change!

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 2324 84 30_another thought on the matters14_Alisa Schwartz20_alisa_s_@hotmail.com30_Tue, 3 Apr 2001 23:42:13 -0400551_iso-8859-1 Hi Chevre,

It's been a long time since I've communicated. I've been forging ahead in my new life here in the US, having made the choice to leave Israel after living there for the better part of the last 16 years. When I left in July, the situation was one where hope was still alive. People still believed it possible that peace would come to the region and Israel would be able to progress as any other nation in this new millenium. (This despite minor unrest that would occur from time to time.) My decision to leave was of a [...] 2409 31 11_Urban Myth?13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Wed, 04 Apr 2001 08:19:46 -0400547_us-ascii Dear Chevre-

First, I want to say that I agree 100 percent with what Shelley wrote. Kol Hakavod, Shelley!

Second, I want to point out that the pigskin burial story now has the marks of an urban legend.(Or, the Jewish equivalent--a bubbemeinsa.) Pearl says Pakistan, Micha says Sudan. It happened an indeterminant time ago.(When was this last time the British were in either country?) It happened in secret. It worked like magic. It addresses a central cultural fear--terrorism. Everyone has heard it on high authority. [...] 2441 62 20_FIne Tnua Leadership10_Jon Zatkin26_jzatkin@public2.bta.net.cn30_Wed, 4 Apr 2001 15:37:00 +0800460_iso-8859-1 Hi Jamie,

I'm impressed that you, as mazkir tnua, have come out publicly for the principle of "seeing through the other guy's eyes". Habonim has always been composed of a fairly wide spectrum of thought on most issues - even those upon which there was concensus. And the way life experiences of the chevre on this have attenuated those opinions to even wider extremes leaves us often unable to comprehend or tolerate each other's views. [...] 2504 60 25_Social Action Coordinator0_15_NEVETS2@aol.com28_Wed, 4 Apr 2001 10:39:35 EDT538_US-ASCII Job Description: Social Action Coordinator for Chizuk Amuno Synagogue



Entrepreneurial service-oriented individual to start-up and direct

a major community service initiative in a large Jewish congregation in

Baltimore, MD. Will include both in-reach and outreach activities;

recruitment, management, and deployment of large volunteer force;

partnerships with local, regional and national organizations.

Responsibilities include development of original model, grant-writing, [...] 2565 172 121_A letter of protest (of "leftist nature") to the Israeli Government: You don't have to read it, you can simply delete it.11_Batel Libes19_batel@realmedia.com30_Wed, 4 Apr 2001 10:17:58 -0700664_iso-8859-1 Hi, I received this from a friend who lives in Israel and despite the difficult times, is still living by basic ideals. I apologize if this offends anyone.

GUSH SHALOM - pob 3322, Tel-Aviv 61033 - http://www.gush-shalom.org/

>While visibly to the world helicopter gunships are bombing Gaza, another wave >of destruction goes on nearly unnoticed. > >Palestinian homes are being systematically bulldozed all over the West Bank. >In this case there isn't any pretence of "security interests" or "military >targets". The houses destroyed yesterday and today belong to ordinary >Palestinian citizens whose only crime is the wish to have a [...] 2738 88 29_Hate Crimes Legislation Alert0_15_DebALev@aol.com28_Wed, 4 Apr 2001 16:19:37 EDT655_US-ASCII > To: National Task Force to End Sexual and Domestic Violence > Against Women > > Re: Hate Crimes Legislation Introduced > > DT: April 2, 2001 > > FR: Jody Rabhan, Hate Crimes VAWA Subcommittee Chair > > ___________________________________________________ > > The Local Law Enforcement Enhancement Act was introduced on Tuesday, > March 27 with 51 Senators and 180 Reps. as original cosponsors! This > modest measure, introduced by Sens. Edward Kennedy (D-MA), Gordon Smith > (R-OR) and Arlen Specter (R-PA) in the Senate as well as Reps. John > Conyers (D-MI) and Connie Morella (R-MD) in the [...] 2827 28 23_Re: HABONET digest 18397_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il30_Wed, 4 Apr 2001 14:28:49 +0300335_iso-8859-1 Thank you Judith, you can't know how much I appreciate what you wrote! pearl ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 5:13 AM Subject: Re: HABONET digest 1839



> pick on someone your own size and let Pearl alone for a change! > > > [...] 2856 83 19_interesting thought12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Wed, 04 Apr 2001 23:16:02 +0200640_iso-8859-1 Haverot/im First, I feel that in discussing the issues raised by "interesting thought" we ought to differentiate between interesting and disinterested. In a previous posting I indicated why _ interesting _was a misnomer. Repeatedly after people protest elements in her postings Pearl writes: I only wanted to inform you what some people in Israel are saying. Interestingly, since her sources are far from disinterested, I find that Pearl doth protest too much. Second and more substantively, I'd like to set up a trial modality for gauging decisions on courses of action ( burial in pigskin body suits not excepted.) Before [...] 2940 72 23_Re: interesting thought0_15_DebALev@aol.com28_Wed, 4 Apr 2001 17:27:53 EDT606_US-ASCII Amnon.........every so often, I think of dropping all seven of the list-servs I'm on. It certainly would make things easier; it seems that not a day goes by without another example of inhumanity, mean-ness, injustice and just plain old pig-headedness (no pun intended).

This being said, being on a number of networks has also been a wonderful experience; it gave me a great (former) job, doing what I love; it brought me into contact with wonderful people around the world with great ideas to share; and it brought me into contact with certain very special gentlemen from my past (you [...] 3013 34 80_To Julia, Shelly, Amnon, Pearl, Jon, Jamie, Deb, Sharonv'chol Habonet v'Yisrael-0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com28_Thu, 5 Apr 2001 01:20:58 EDT190_US-ASCII

Chag Sameach v'chag Shalom....Despite the times, I hope we can all celebrate the meaning of Pesach and all that it implies..."Kol Yisrael chaverim v'arevim ze lazeh"...susie 3048 52 15_Re: Urban Myth?7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il30_Thu, 5 Apr 2001 00:31:36 +0300526_iso-8859-1 judy, I never wrote Pakistan: it was in India, and the story is well known here. It is not a legend. If this method of stopping terrorism would be tried it would save lives on both sides of the fence. I can not think of any more humane method of stopping the terrorism which has all but paralyzed us here. Those who condemn the idea (or me because I wrote it) do not even have an alternative idea that can work better. The ultimate goal is to stop the terrorists I would think. And if this can be done without [...] 3101 32 6_ideas?16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Thu, 05 Apr 2001 08:32:35 -0400575_us-ascii Since Habonet's been discussing "interesting ideas" and porcine burial rites, I thought I'd pass on a relevant riddle.

Guess what religion was being described by this quote?

"Part of the appeal to many who have converted, is its tradition of justice and social responsibility. But the core value what holds the faith togther--has to be the vital nature of family life....There is a sense of a powerful human bond. Religion is not just a private matter. It's a communicative one. But you need the 'togetherness' of the human family to achieve it." [...] 3134 57 11_child labor16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Thu, 05 Apr 2001 08:34:18 -0400364_us-ascii Received this from colleagues involved in anti-sweatshop activism. Please check out the links, and do what you can to help.

Your support is needed for a petition campaign against child labour!

On 30 March 2001, a petition was launched by the International Trade Union Movement as part of their New Global Campaign to stop child labour. [...] 3192 245 27_KID SISTER By Israel Shamir11_Phil Safier17_psafier@elixa.com31_Thu, 05 Apr 2001 12:26:58 -0600424_iso-8859-1 Here we have a Jew, living in Israel, saying what many of us, the exasperated in Diaspora, have claimed for some time only to receive the epithet "self hating Jew" and worse. Shamir addresses the antisemite canard in an interview at thestruggle.org and shows how perverted we have become, how far we have strayed from our much-vaunted ethos, becoming oppressors and facilitating oppression around the world. [...] 3438 84 50_Re: KID SISTER By Israel Shamir....a personal note0_13_Mmxmm@aol.com28_Thu, 5 Apr 2001 15:34:00 EDT577_US-ASCII Hi Phil et al,

Thanks for forwarding this article to Habonet. I first received one of Yisrael Shamir's articles a few months back. As I read it I began to remember that when I was in the 'nachal paratroops' in the early 70's [my how times flys] one of my closest friends and kindred spirits was named 'Shmir'. He was young Russian immigrant, who seemed somewhat mysterious in regard to his former life in the Soviet Union to which I attributed as residual paranoia of having lived under that regime. He was remarkably well versed and literate and spoke in [...] 3523 30 23_Re: interesting thought0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com28_Thu, 5 Apr 2001 16:21:45 EDT640_US-ASCII In a message dated 4/4/2001 5:11:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time, amriv@netvision.net.il writes:

<< amriv@netvision.net.il >>

Ammnon

Thank you for saying what was in my heart and I could not say

I looooove you...If you were here I would hug you



Sam

Pittsburgh

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 3554 114 50_Re: KID SISTER By Israel Shamir....a personal note13_Yuval Warshai16_warshais@tir.com30_Thu, 5 Apr 2001 17:00:21 -0400602_Windows-1252 Dear Marc,

I read my first Israel Shamir article a couple of months ago. I still have two his latest articles in storage (including the one Phil just forwarded to habonet), waiting for some prime intellectual time and energy to be read. The Russian immigrants that served with me in my Nacha"l Tank unit in the late 70s were all very reactionary right wing hawks and capitalists. We witnessed together the Knesset speach by Anwar el-Sa'adat z"l in 1978, at Kibbutz Maayan Baruch, and they all cheered Begin's hard line reply speech. Of course, that was before Jimmy Carter got [...] 3669 86 16_Vocolot concerts16_Linda Hirschhorn18_vocolot@sirius.com31_Thu, 05 Apr 2001 18:28:05 -0700305_us-ascii

Hello from Vocolot! We are very excited to announce our April and May 2001 performance schedule. We hope to see you soon at one of our shows!

April 20 FRIDAY, New York, NY Temple Sha'aray Tefila 7:30 PM service 250 East 79th St. New York, NY (212) 535-8008 Free to the public [...] 3756 86 28_Response to Amnon from Micha0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com28_Fri, 6 Apr 2001 00:30:19 EDT566_ISO-8859-1 In a message dated 4/4/01 2:11:12 PM Pacific Daylight Time, amriv@netvision.net.il writes:



> A 19 year old soldier in the detachment guarding Rachel's Tomb was killed > defending the inalienable right of the Jews to practice superstitious > fertility rites there. So before we bank on the deterrent effect of > pigskin prophylactics on potential Palestinian suicide bombers let us > examine the superstitions of our own select hooligans and militias whose > aims and methods vis a vis 400,000 Palestinians in Hebron are ambiguous at > [...] 3843 247 31_Re: KID SISTER By Israel Shamir13_Marcia Plager26_grandrapidsm@earthlink.net31_Thu, 05 Apr 2001 23:01:57 -0700622_iso-8859-1 Dear Phil

re: the Israel Shamir article................ I don't get it.

Steve Klein

Phil Safier wrote:

> Here we have a Jew, living in Israel, saying what many of us, the > exasperated in Diaspora, have claimed for some time only to receive the > epithet "self hating Jew" and worse. Shamir addresses the antisemite canard > in an interview at thestruggle.org and shows how perverted we have become, > how far we have strayed from our much-vaunted ethos, becoming oppressors and > facilitating oppression around the world. > > Do chanichim today hear the points of view of Jews [...] 4091 35 32_Re: Response to Amnon from Micha0_13_SC523@aol.com28_Fri, 6 Apr 2001 03:36:32 EDT557_US-ASCII Without making any editorial comment at all about Micha's response to AMnon, I have to ask a touchy question: If the rules of Habonet are that you have to sign onto the listserve by having been a Habonim member, why does this not hold for Micha Liberman? As much as I defend your right to engage in good debate, Micha, even if I had serious difficulties with your accusations and invective last week, there is a different issue here: A year and a half ago, several people had to be removed from the listserve because they found their way onto [...] 4127 77 51_A bit of British history in the Indian Subcontinent13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Fri, 06 Apr 2001 06:45:14 -0400495_us-ascii Dear Pearl-

"Well-know" does not truth make.

The British ruled India from 1858 to Aug. 15, 1947. If the British buried anyone in a pigskin, they did it over 54 years ago. Maybe they did such a thing at least once. That is conceivable. The history of British colonial rule is replete with examples in which the English violated local cultural norms and basic taboos of the society they governed in ruthless ways in attempts to gain control over the local populations. [...] 4205 85 13_Editing error13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Fri, 06 Apr 2001 07:49:51 -0400576_us-ascii My last post should have begun with "well-known", not "well-know".

Hag Samayach- Judy

Judith Gelman wrote:

> Dear Pearl- > > "Well-know" does not truth make. > > The British ruled India from 1858 to Aug. 15, 1947. If the British > buried anyone in a pigskin, they did it over 54 years ago. Maybe they > did such a thing at least once. That is conceivable. The history of > British colonial rule is replete with examples in which the English > violated local cultural norms and basic taboos of the society they > governed in ruthless ways in [...] 4291 26 26_A real interesting thought12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Fri, 06 Apr 2001 14:53:50 +0200349_us-ascii Haverot/im Many years ago the poet, Zelda, an Orthodox woman, wrote "On the Second Floor." After Oren fell we incorporated into our Pesach Haggadah My room is in the royal city Where trees and stones will answer, amen When we implore the Creator To grant us the joy of that sweet fruit Called peace: A luminous summer with no horrors. [...] 4318 48 21_Hag Sameach v' Kasher0_15_Emabear@aol.com28_Fri, 6 Apr 2001 10:23:19 EDT578_US-ASCII At the beginning of Hag, it seems like a good time to thank all of you who send such kind notes of sympathy about my husband's, Bernie Z"L, death. He passed away on Purim, and now, on Erev Pesach, we are finishing Shloshim. Your emails, with stories about when we were madrichim in Cincinnati brought back so many fond memories. Once again, thank you. As a lifetime professional volunteer, I am often reminds the great value of belonging to an extended family, or sorts. Through sorrows ands simchas there are people to help you through and to celebrate with you. [...] 4367 54 40_Vhegadetah L'bincha..a response to Aliya0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com28_Fri, 6 Apr 2001 11:59:21 EDT603_US-ASCII Dear Aliya- I was very hurt that you could compare my children to the "Jews for Jesus" hecklers. I know that the teachings and philosophies I and Dov learned in Habonim last more than just one generation. My children and their children and their children's children will continue the values and beliefs we all inherited from Habonim. My children speak Hebrew, have spent years in Israel. They love the Jewish people and their heritage and homeland. What is the minimum number of ken meetings that a person must attend before their opinions have merit in your eyes? Trudy Greener's husband [...] 4422 54 32_Re: Response to Amnon from Micha0_15_DebALev@aol.com28_Fri, 6 Apr 2001 12:34:20 EDT312_US-ASCII Aliya, I asked the same question a while ago - isn't this list serv for its own members only?

Yours is the first note I've seen on this. There are two issues here:

1. the one you mention, that Habonet is for Habonim members and former Habonim members and is therefore a "closed" list [...] 4477 58 44_Re: Vhegadetah L'bincha..a response to Aliya11_Noam Stopak26_n.stopak@scienceserver.com31_Fri, 06 Apr 2001 12:46:31 -0400560_us-ascii LiberHawke@aol.com wrote:

> Dear Aliya- > I was very hurt that you could compare my children to the "Jews for Jesus" > hecklers.

I don't think the "Jews for Jesus" (I assume you are referring to the "Light Warrior" fellow from the UK?) were heckling people for being left wing.

> > I know that the teachings and philosophies I and Dov learned in Habonim last > more than just one generation. My children and their children and their > children's children will continue the values and beliefs we all inherited > from Habonim. [...] 4536 148 44_Re: Vhegadetah L'bincha..a response to Aliya0_15_DebALev@aol.com28_Fri, 6 Apr 2001 13:05:12 EDT392_US-ASCII Perhaps I should share Habonet discussions with my own children and my mother. I'm sure you all would be impressed by anything my son would write; brought up with lots of yiddishkeit, a great deal of education, and while he did not have the privilege of growing up in Israel and speaking Hebrew, he can read Hebrew, Arabic, Russian and Spanish (and speaks Spanish fairly well). [...] 4685 55 13_Israel Shamir17_Efraim Perlmutter24_habesor@netvision.net.il31_Sat, 07 Apr 2001 00:03:47 +0200350_iso-8859-1 The article by Israel Shamir, that appeared on Habonet was so full of lies and distortions that I wonder how anyone with any familiarity with the situation here can suggest that it is a serious work. For instance:

Para one – Shamir implies that the elections were a sham because a coalition was formed between Labor and Likud. [...] 4741 126 42_boring thoughts about pigskin flak helmets11_Noam Stopak26_n.stopak@scienceserver.com31_Fri, 06 Apr 2001 23:24:56 -0400376_us-ascii Pearl,

I address this to you because you have been the most vociforous proponent of the views you express below, but I'm also speaking to others one the list who have written on these subjects recently and I'm trying to express various thoughts I've had while reading Habonet over the past week or three, so please excuse me if I bounce all over the map. [...] 4868 31 4_pork16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Sat, 07 Apr 2001 10:17:14 -0400633_us-ascii A propos Judy Gelman's articulate rebuttal of Pearl's pigskin arguments in Habonet 1847, a supplemental footnote. One of the causes of the sepoy rebellion in 1957 India against the British was the alleged use of animal fat in the manufacture of rifle cartriges which the sepoy soldiers in British employ had to bite prior to loading the rifle. .(The British actually ruled all of India from the mid 18th century under the British East India Company--the Company's franchise was revoked after the Sepoy rebellion by the establishment of the Raj. Wellington, as Brigadier Arthur Wellesley, led the campaigns that finally [...] 4900 94 19_Save the rainforest10_Elon Shore17_erufus2@yahoo.com36_Sat, 7 Apr 2001 21:07:53 -0700 (PDT)552_us-ascii Dear People,

The Brazilian congress is now voting on a project that will reduce the Amazon forest to 50% of its size. This will take 1 MINUTE to read - please put your names on the list and forward this on. The area to be deforested is 4 times the size of Portugal and would be mainly used for agriculture and pastures for livestock. All the wood is to be sold to international markets in the form of wood chips, by multinational companies. The truth is that the soil in the Amazon forest is useless without the forest itself. Its [...] 4995 50 23_Re: Save the rainforest0_15_DebALev@aol.com28_Sun, 8 Apr 2001 00:26:27 EDT333_US-ASCII Sigh. Another petition.

Again, while the motive might be good, and I agree with it in this case, this petition does nothing other than inform the people that read it. There is nobody in charge, apparently, The two email addresses that appear at the end do not identify a person, an organization, or even a date. [...] 5046 30 27_Beware of Utter Destruction12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Sun, 08 Apr 2001 15:25:15 +0200576_us-ascii Haverim/ot On Shabbat ha-Gadol which precedes Pesach, the reading from Malachi 3, 24 ends: "Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and terrible day of the Lord. And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers; lest I come and smite the land with utter destruction. " Usually the vatikim in the synagogues (read grandparents) get teary eyed during the reading assuming that now the youngsters, who are often absent in any case, will see the wisdom the old ways because [...] 5077 23 46_Re: boring thoughts about pigskin flak helmets8_Ephraims14_cbma@erols.com31_Sun, 08 Apr 2001 12:28:45 +0000384_us-ascii Noam,

DITTOE

Shelly





------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 5101 259 44_Re: Vhegadetah L'bincha..a response to Aliya13_Marcia Plager26_grandrapidsm@earthlink.net31_Sun, 08 Apr 2001 16:58:39 -0700584_us-ascii dear Debbie

My apologies for sticking my nose in here. You need to bone up a little on world history. Without getting into a lot of complicated discussions as to the racial implications of America's dropping the bombs on Japan, you are missing the mark a lot by your statement (based on what?). Nobody is counting Japanese bodies as of lesser worth. Had the war been allowed to continue conventionally, ALL body counts would have increased dramatically, as the Japanese were not about to give up without a real slap to wake them up. It is not conjecture that one [...] 5361 83 44_Re: Vhegadetah L'bincha..a response to Aliya0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Sun, 08 Apr 2001 20:05:15 EDT554_ISO-8859-1 This will be my last posting to the Habonet. It is clear that I am not wanted here and I appologize for offending anyone who found my presence offensive. Yo needn't take any action to keep me from posting here because I no longer find the Habonet intersting. My parents explained the listserve to me as a place where people brought up in a common ideology discuss issues that are important to them. That is not what this list is. The Habonet is a place for people with one aprticular political view to close their eyes and their minds to [...] 5445 157 46_Re: boring thoughts about pigskin flak helmets13_Marcia Plager26_grandrapidsm@earthlink.net31_Sun, 08 Apr 2001 17:22:59 -0700563_us-ascii Dear Noam

Palestinians that just want to live their lives?? Which planet have you been inhabiting?

When I was in Israel (oh excuse me. I mean "occupied Palestine"), Scud missiles the length of houses were whistling over our heads in Jerusalem, heading for the civilian population in Tel Aviv (occupied Jaffa). Palestinians (Arabs) were on their rooftops, cheering the wrong side. (Again). During the six Day war, we heard Palestinians cheering on Nasser and Hussein, figuring out how to divvy up the spoils. On the wrong side (Again). [...] 5603 206 44_Re: Vhegadetah L'bincha..a response to Aliya0_15_DebALev@aol.com28_Sun, 8 Apr 2001 20:41:03 EDT559_US-ASCII Susie......since your son Micha quoted my note in his note to the list today, and apparently has decided not to participate any more, I hope you will share this with him.



Dear, Micha,

First of all, mazel tov on your engagement!!

I did not see any part of my note where, to use your words, I was one of those who "attacked (me) personally 3 times. " I try very hard to talk about the message and not the messenger, and think I did so. I did not attack you personally, and I would like appreciate an apology; off line [...] 5810 43 44_Re: Vhegadetah L'bincha..a response to Aliya29_Richard Steacy & Esther Cohen22_richard.steacy@gte.net30_Sun, 8 Apr 2001 21:28:37 -0400588_iso-8859-1 RE: You all claim that we must try and understand the Palestinians, and yet make no attempt to try and understand your fellow Jews (below). :

someone i knew who had worked in africa told me that there had been a number of people in her group who married (black) africans while they were there, and that what was interesting was that the marriages of white americans to black africans generally did better than marriages of black americans to black africans - her conclusion was that the white/black couple knew, going into the relationship, that there was a lot of [...] 5854 51 23_Re: Save the rainforest0_18_Rachelbern@aol.com28_Mon, 9 Apr 2001 03:03:11 EDT584_US-ASCII Last time I was on-line (Friday), I received that Afghanistan women "petition" (I think "chain-email" is a more apt description) AGAIN from yet another intelligent, well-meaning friend. Gritting my teeth, I sent a note to all 10,000 or so people she had sent it to, acknowledging her good intentions and laying out all the reasons they should PLEASE not forward it any further as gently as I could (I wasn't feeling gentle). The friend who sent it out originally then wrote back to me (only), saying that maybe the piece was useless as a petition, but wasn't it good to [...] 5906 37 21_Micha's participation13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Mon, 09 Apr 2001 09:34:42 -0400353_us-ascii Dear Chevreh-

I agree with Deb that a child of two Habonim chevre who was never in Habonim does not belong on Habonet, whether his/her views are right, left or center.

My husband of 19 years has often read over my shoulder but has never posted because I view such posting as a violation of our basic covenant as a listserve. [...] 5944 92 11_Japan/WW II16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Mon, 09 Apr 2001 10:33:37 -0400605_us-ascii Debby Levinstein wrote

> the bomb drops on Nagasaki and > Hiroshima were supposed to end the war in the Pacific and "spare countless > American lives." It did stop the war, but I would guess that the number of > American lives spared would have been miniscule compared to the number of > innocent Japanese who were killed. > Just to clarify a bit, the Japan's post-hoc understanding and teaching about World War II is something that just, somehow, deus ex machina-like that inexplicably happened to them. Today the Japanese whine about their nuclear suffering. Somehow their rapes of [...] 6037 113 46_Re: boring thoughts about pigskin flak helmets11_Noam Stopak26_n.stopak@scienceserver.com31_Mon, 09 Apr 2001 12:44:58 -0400396_us-ascii Marcia,

Marcia Plager wrote:

> Dear Noam > > Palestinians that just want to live their lives?? Which planet have you been > inhabiting? >

Thanks for demonstrating how those on the "right" only respond to facts and eschew personal attacks. How timely. For what it's worth I find your use of Dear above when you clearly don't mean it to be snide and patronizing. [...] 6151 50 46_Re: boring thoughts about pigskin flak helmets0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com28_Mon, 9 Apr 2001 12:51:36 EDT470_US-ASCII In a message dated 4/9/01 12:47:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time, n.stopak@scienceserver.com writes:



> Still I wonder what opportunities they have been > presented with that you would have found acceptable if you were in their > place? >

I almost always agree with you, Noam, but I think that the offer Barak made last summer was certainly an opportunity that the Palestinians blew. They won't get that again, at least not with this government. 6202 34 46_Re: boring thoughts about pigskin flak helmets11_Noam Stopak26_n.stopak@scienceserver.com31_Mon, 09 Apr 2001 13:03:09 -0400522_us-ascii



Richardrdsmith@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 4/9/01 12:47:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > n.stopak@scienceserver.com writes: > >> Still I wonder what opportunities they have been >> presented with that you would have found acceptable if you were in their >> place? > > I almost always agree with you, Noam, but I think that the offer Barak made > last summer was certainly an opportunity that the Palestinians blew. They > won't get that again, at least not with this government. [...] 6237 74 25_RE: Micha's participation12_Brian Cooper21_BCooper@descartes.com30_Mon, 9 Apr 2001 15:00:48 -0400502_iso-8859-1 Friends, to clarify, there *HAVE* been other non-habonim participants on our list at different times in the past. Our raison d'etre as defined in the Welcome Message you all received begins:

"This list is a meeting place for Habonim Dror alumni and friends."

And while I'm sure your sense that it is not his opinions that disqualify him is genuine, were Micha a little more "habonim mainstream" (how's that for an oxymoron?!), this would most likely not have come up. No? [...] 6312 72 25_Re: Micha's participation0_15_DebALev@aol.com28_Mon, 9 Apr 2001 15:06:21 EDT534_US-ASCII In a message dated 4/9/01 12:01:37 PM Pacific Daylight Time, BCooper@descartes.com writes:



> . > > Having said that, I also want to add that as I've explained in the past, > Habonet is NOT a democracy open to all. It most definitely is meant to > further our communal objectives of peace and justice, as well as personal > goals with which we can help each other. When and individual crosses the > line of good etiquette, or crossed deep into the other camp, then their > membership will be reconsidered. [...] 6385 57 25_RE: Micha's participation12_Brian Cooper21_BCooper@descartes.com30_Mon, 9 Apr 2001 15:16:48 -0400313_iso-8859-1 It IS bad form to forward email in general, without the owner's consent, but unfortuantely the point is currently moot as our archives are published on the shamash.org web site. We could have Shamash remove the archives, but it would also make it much harder then, for subscribers to get to them. [...] 6443 42 25_Re: Micha's participation0_15_DebALev@aol.com28_Mon, 9 Apr 2001 15:20:55 EDT274_US-ASCII No, that's fine, Brian. I just wanted to know what the policy was here. Archives, it seems to me, are not usually a problem......I can't imagine many people out there in cyberspace doing the work necessary to check out habonet archives.

Thanks.

Debbie 6486 45 25_RE: Micha's Participation11_Batel Libes19_batel@realmedia.com30_Mon, 9 Apr 2001 13:35:26 -0700464_iso-8859-1 Hi, I tend to disagree with the reference to archives. With many search engines having the ability to read discussion group's postings, I feel it is imperative to maintain our privacy in all ways possible. Maybe we should drop "Friends" as a reference for association and require the list be available to alumni only, or at least have the Friend submit a formal request for inclusion, after all, the rest of us had to be approved, why not friends? [...] 6532 145 14_Just a Thought12_Dave Edelman21_docdave@optonline.net31_Mon, 09 Apr 2001 17:21:56 -0400562_iso-8859-1 > >Chevrah, > >I am constantly being reminded that the web is a very dangerous place with >all sorts of weird folks lurking behind every URL and waiting to do cruel >and unnatural things to my body and psyche. > >The latest bit of cruelty perpetrated upon my person occurred just this past >Thursday when some Vandal (maybe a Goth or Visigoth) took it upon himself to >destroy my life-long belief that Chad Gadyah was a pleasant reward for those >of us who managed to remain to the end of the Seder in some semblance of >coherence and capable of [...] 6678 46 46_Re: boring thoughts about pigskin flak helmets0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com28_Mon, 9 Apr 2001 20:33:55 EDT259_US-ASCII In a message dated 4/9/01 1:05:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time, n.stopak@scienceserver.com writes:



> That's fine as far as > it goes but I don't think that answers the question I ask above. > >

It would have been good enough for me. 6725 30 44_Re: Vhegadetah L'bincha..a response to Aliya0_13_SC523@aol.com28_Mon, 9 Apr 2001 21:55:31 EDT530_US-ASCII Thank you , Debbie and Noam, for asking the questions in support of my query.

There's no way that I compared Micha to Jews for Jesus hecklers , Susie. I made a very simple statement that we have rules on Habonet and it is for the participation of Habonim alumni. Today Brian has clarified the situation - there is no section for "Spouses of Habonim" or "Children of Habonim" to carry on a "tea party" correspondence back and forth, but it is ok for them to make a one-time comment or to simply join the list. [...] 6756 85 39_Important Prayer at this Difficult Time0_13_SC523@aol.com28_Mon, 9 Apr 2001 22:14:50 EDT415_UTF-8 Dear Chevreh,

Now that Brian has made it clear that this is acceptable, I'd like to offer a beautiful prayer for peace written by our dear friend Ruth Lambert, mom of Kate Lambert Harrison (Workshop 47) and Alex Lambert Harrison (Workshop 51).

Aliya



SHALOM This year, as we celebrate with our loved ones, family and friends alike, let us consider the age old dream of peace. [...] 6842 66 41_Re: Micha's participation- Enough already0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com28_Mon, 9 Apr 2001 23:49:19 EDT614_US-ASCII In a message dated 4/9/01 12:01:11 PM Pacific Daylight Time, BCooper@descartes.com writes:



> Friends, to clarify, there *HAVE* been other non-habonim participants on our > list at different times in the past. Our raison d'etre as defined in the > Welcome Message you all received begins: > > "This list is a meeting place for Habonim Dror alumni and friends." > > Aliya- > This is another example of people interpreting what they want to- Micha wasn't joining the Habonet- only commenting on the issues that Pearl brought up, and the ensuing comments by those who wanted to comment on [...] 6909 74 29_Fw: ICSA conference June 200113_Yehuda Riemer20_aminadav@urim.org.il31_Tue, 10 Apr 2001 10:52:29 +0200702_utf-8

-----Original Message----- From: Christa Falkenstein To: icsa@zegg.de Date: éåí ùéùé 06 à ôøéì 2001 10:45 Subject: ICSA conference June 2001



> > ----------- >Living in Community - A Model for the Future or a non-political Retreat? >International Conference of Community Researchers and Members / >June 25 - 27, 2001, ZEGG (near Berlin, Germany) > >Now as before the subject living in community is under discussion. For some >people it is the form of living (or survival) of the future, for others it is >rather a retreat from political live into privacy. > >The International Communal Studies Association (ICSA) [...] 6984 19 14_address change0_19_ODSchnei696@aol.com29_Tue, 10 Apr 2001 06:10:48 EDT439_ISO-8859-1 Please change my e-mail address from odschnei696@aol.com to oschneider1@home.com.

Thanks, Orren

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 7004 62 26_Habonim Alumni and Friends13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Tue, 10 Apr 2001 08:57:27 -0400580_us-ascii Dear Chaverim--

Gee, I thought "friends" meant "friends of habonim", like Galil's Chaver Steve or Mosh's Peter Roemer, who have headed camp committees for years and worked their hearts out for the movement, not my personal friends and relatives.

If I am wrong and "friends" means "friends of people who were once in Habonim", would you like me to invite one of my closest friends, Mary, devote Catholic and mother of 8, to join us? She knows a lot about Habonim because I have been telling her about it for 35 years and she has met tons of my movement [...] 7067 56 15_Re: Japan/WW II8_Pristoop22_cpristoo@mail.bcpl.net31_Tue, 10 Apr 2001 11:55:27 -0400380_us-ascii Having spent 13 months in Korea learning the language and culture, I couldn' t agree more with Elihu Davison's assessment. The Japanese raped not just the women, but the entire country, literally cutting down every tree and hauling the lumber back to Japan as well as inflicting Japanese as the official language of the country in place of Hangul. Allan S. Pristoop [...] 7124 28 30_Re: Habonim Alumni and Friends0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com29_Tue, 10 Apr 2001 12:15:57 EDT34_US-ASCII The more the merrier, no? 7153 32 18_Re: Enough already12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Tue, 10 Apr 2001 22:13:34 +0200565_us-ascii Susie, shalom; Yesterday you wrote: Re- Enough already14_Steve Schreier13_steve@ats.org24_10 Apr 01 16:12:51 -0400549_iso-8859-1 RE>Re: Enough already 4/10/2001 Geez, my master (hah) goes out of town for a little while, and I miss all the good stuff. I hope it's ok that I write as a pet of a former Habonim member. I can't keep up with all the people my master knew who have withdrawn from Habonet. Dov L, Phil Safier, Vic Glassberg and now Suzie. It's starting to feel a bit like the opposite of Groucho's famous Hillcrest experience. The only reason anybody would want to be here is becasue no one wants to be. I always wondered about quitting something, but [...] 7319 43 41_Re: Micha's participation- Enough already0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com29_Tue, 10 Apr 2001 17:04:38 EDT578_US-ASCII In a message dated 4/9/01 11:50:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LiberHawke@aol.com writes:

<< : LiberHawke >>

1. For my point I just want to clarify that I will always be grateful to Micha and to Sue for the wonderful things they did for my music.

2. I never questioned Micha's right to comment 3. My reading of Brian's comments as Webmaster also indicated that comments from Micha were welcome. 4. I did not try to disuade Julia from quiting, but she was clear about her reasons. 5. I would say that I am less clear about Sue's reasons. 6. That [...] 7363 163 15_excommunication11_Phil Safier17_psafier@elixa.com31_Tue, 10 Apr 2001 16:51:27 -0600 7527 403 31_Re: KID SISTER By Israel Shamir11_Phil Safier17_psafier@elixa.com31_Tue, 10 Apr 2001 17:19:07 -0600 7931 44 19_Suddenly I Remember12_Dave Edelman21_docdave@optonline.net31_Tue, 10 Apr 2001 20:05:10 -0400571_iso-8859-1 Many years ago (most of my stories start that way these days :(,)

I was living in Arad and working with a Scottish physician. He had a lovely wife and an alarmingly precocious daughter named Mirav. I am suppressing as may details as possible for what will become obvious reasons.

Mirav was born in Glasgow, but was whisked immediately to Israel when the family made aliyah. Well Mirav was well into the second year of her terrible two's when she and her mother went back to Glasgow on a visit. I'm told that Mirav was truly an angle for the [...] 7976 38 31_Re: KID SISTER By Israel Shamir0_13_Mmxmm@aol.com29_Tue, 10 Apr 2001 21:35:36 EDT179_US-ASCII Hi,

Yisrael Shamir is currently traveling and lecturing in the US. He was just at a number of eastern colleges including Harvard. Headed out to W. Coast.

mm 8015 102 21_Fwd: Chicago Kumsitz!0_13_SC523@aol.com29_Tue, 10 Apr 2001 21:47:18 EDT119_US-ASCII Dear Midwest Chevreh,

Sending this one more time! Looking forward to a lot of good schmoozing and song! 8118 46 8_Brouhaha8_Ephraims14_cbma@erols.com31_Tue, 10 Apr 2001 22:09:01 +0000594_us-ascii A Habonet sampler:

I'm not angry, I'm making a technical point...

I'm not a racist, YOU are....

I think your thinking is twisted . Shabbat Shalom um'vorach......

Oh please don't go, we love you so......(actually, I think that's from "Where the Wild Things Are")



My son would say, as he does about so many things, "It's all good." It all is part of the discussion we have. As we are all big boys and girls, I think we can all take responsibility for what we say and sometimes stick to our guns, apologize if we feel the need, continue to [...] 8165 42 4_IKEA0_15_DebALev@aol.com29_Wed, 11 Apr 2001 00:32:30 EDT277_US-ASCII I heard on another list that there has been some talk about the guy from IKEA being involved with the Nazis. That note said that it was a story circulating in Israel.

Does anyone know anything about that. Is it for real? What was that involvement?

Debbie 8208 16 25_Re: RE>Re- Enough already0_13_SC523@aol.com29_Wed, 11 Apr 2001 01:42:17 EDT398_US-ASCII I'll take Habonim sarcasm a la Schreier and Gelman any day! ACC

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 8225 26 8_Re: IKEA22_Deborah M Tanzer-Cohen15_candeb@juno.com31_Wed, 11 Apr 2001 07:44:52 -0500538_- Old story. Apparently the guy who founded the business and still is at least a principal owner did, during the war when in his teens, join the Nazi party for a brief time. My memory of the tale is that he has repudiated his membership as a youthful indiscretion born of stupidity and naivety. Debbie ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. [...] 8252 102 34_Reply to Phil Safier on Kid Sister17_Efraim Perlmutter24_habesor@netvision.net.il31_Wed, 11 Apr 2001 18:25:20 +0200547_us-ascii Phil wrote:

"According to Efraim Perlmutter , Shamir lies like a rug. I wonder. Much puzzling evidence supports his argument.

Can I prove his allegations? No. Do they ring true to me and cause me to question authority? Of course... after all, I belong to Temple Beth You Is My Woman where we have this thing about idols and graven images. Call me a sucker for a conspiracy theory or a good spy thriller, but history as the history of crime seems like a fairly accurate description of reality. [...] 8355 35 38_Re: Reply to Phil Safier on Kid Sister13_Yuval Warshai16_warshais@tir.com31_Wed, 11 Apr 2001 13:20:32 -0400599_Windows-1252 Ephraim,

I haven't even read Phil's exploration of Shamir's views to which you have already replied. But somehow I read on to the end of your message. It finally convinced me of the incredible vastness of my stupid ignorance. See, even though I have a little masters degree in modern Jewish history, I have NEVER really gone through the trouble of trying to read the Protocols. I have never even thought of touching, let alone looking for and even perhaps purchasing, such an important work as "Mein Kampf." You know, having grown up within the culture in which [...] 8391 63 8_Re: IKEA13_aubrey jasper22_aubreyjasper@yahoo.com37_Wed, 11 Apr 2001 17:57:20 -0700 (PDT)606_us-ascii Of course he repudiated his Nazi past- it's bad for business now. However, the Nazis made their agenda plain as far back as the 1920's. 'Mein Kampf" laid out much of the program in advance. Thus, anyone who joined the Nazi party cannot honstly claim ignorance or stupidity. The whole world was aware of the anti-Semitic, nationalist, racist, fascist expansionist agenda by the early-to-mid 1930's. People joined because they agreed with all or part of the agenda. Once the party came to power, still more joined because they were totally immoral opportunists who saw the Nazi crime wave as a [...] 8455 37 8_Re: IKEA8_Ephraims14_cbma@erols.com31_Wed, 11 Apr 2001 21:12:40 +0000533_us-ascii

It doesn't have to be bad for business. Maybe it's not too good for his soul. My husband is a musician who played in a jazz group for a while with an older guy who turned out to have been a member of Hitler youth. He didn't fall all over himself apologizing to my husband for collective sin nor did my husband think for a minute that he was antisemitic. I don't minimize Nazism - I'm a first generation American child of a woman who doesn't think she's a refugee because she got out of Poland a year before her [...] 8493 172 17_food for thought?0_15_DebALev@aol.com29_Wed, 11 Apr 2001 23:53:22 EDT638_US-ASCII This was published in this morning's "Seattle Times."



Wednesday, April 11, 2001, 12:00 a.m. Pacific Guest columnist A new government, an old Israeli challenge by Yoram Peri Special to The TimesIn Israel, two very different parties have put aside enough of their differences to help create a national unity government. And around the world, Israel's friends wonder whether somehow this unlikeliest of partnerships could succeed where others have failed. But a sure way to failure is for this new government to repeat the mistakes of the old - to ignore the pressing internal divisions that stand in the way of [...] 8666 70 38_Habonim Dance Ensemble Makes Comeback!0_13_SC523@aol.com29_Thu, 12 Apr 2001 01:46:28 EDT350_US-ASCII The first New York Israeli Dance Festival Habonim Dance Ensemble in a decade is off and dancing! Our theory has been fulfilled: Take 13 Habodancers ranging in age from 20 to 52, representing 6 out of the 7 machanot --13 Habonim Dror alumni, most of whom have never met each other -- throw them into a room, and they will all get along! [...] 8737 73 38_Holocaust Survivors & US Justice Dept.16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Thu, 12 Apr 2001 09:29:52 -0400678_us-ascii The following annnouncement was released by the Jewish Council for Public Affairs (JCPA, formerly NJCRAC.) JCPA is the national instrumentality representing almost 140 Jewish community relations councils around the country and 15 national agencies.



The JCPA has long supported the work of the Office of Special Investigations in the U.S. Department of Justice. This office is responsible for initiating judicial proceedings against individuals who assisted the Nazis in the extermination or persecution of Jews during World War II and subsequently gained entry into this country and received citizenship by misrepresenting their wartime activities. [...] 8811 43 24_forwarding others' email0_18_Rachelbern@aol.com29_Thu, 12 Apr 2001 15:55:56 EDT317_US-ASCII << It IS bad form to forward email in general, without the owner's consent, but unfortuantely the point is currently moot as our archives are published on the shamash.org web site. We could have Shamash remove the archives, but it would also make it much harder then, for subscribers to get to them. >> [...] 8855 249 20_IKEA/Nazi discussion13_aubrey jasper22_aubreyjasper@yahoo.com37_Thu, 12 Apr 2001 16:56:09 -0700 (PDT)129_us-ascii Chevre,

Kindly read the attachment which I have written. Please let me know if it's not readable. Thanks.

9105 587 17_A measure of hope11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org31_Thu, 12 Apr 2001 19:26:23 -0500556_ISO-8859-1

One of my friends sent me this Washington Post article. I thought you'd enjoy it. Rozzie



> A Measure Of Hope > The Whitwell, Tenn., Holocaust Project Has Spread > Far Beyond the Classroom > By Dita Smith > Washington Post Staff Writer > Saturday, April 7, 2001; Page C01 > > WHITWELL, Tenn. -- It is a most unlikely place to > build a Holocaust > memorial, much less one that would get the attention > of the president, that > would become the subject of a book, that would > become an international > cause. > > Yet [...] 9693 42 24_Re: IKEA/Nazi discussion0_15_DebALev@aol.com29_Thu, 12 Apr 2001 20:51:22 EDT280_US-ASCII Hi, Aubrey. AOL is really bizarre about attachments; it doesn't always "read" them. I downloaded with no problem, but when I went to read it, the file wouldn't open.

Maybe you could cut and paste it into an email and send it to me? I'd appreciate it!

Debbie 9736 33 24_Re: IKEA/Nazi discussion13_aubrey jasper22_aubreyjasper@yahoo.com37_Thu, 12 Apr 2001 19:25:37 -0700 (PDT)420_us-ascii Deb,

I'll have to call my brother for tech support, to learn how to cut and paste.

--- DebALev@aol.com wrote: > Hi, Aubrey. AOL is really bizarre about > attachments; it doesn't always > "read" them. I downloaded with no problem, but when > I went to read it, the > file wouldn't open. > > Maybe you could cut and paste it into an email and > send it to me? I'd > appreciate it! > > Debbie > [...] 9770 45 0_13_aubrey jasper22_aubreyjasper@yahoo.com37_Thu, 12 Apr 2001 20:06:29 -0700 (PDT)611_us-ascii Regarding IKEA, “Ephraims” wrote that “ It doesn’t have to be bad for business. Maybe it’s not too good for his soul.” Of course Nazism was not beneficial for his soul. Yet, these public repudiations of a Nazi past, by business and political figures, never seem to have come early and voluntarily. They occur only in response to public exposure in the news media. As such, it’s clear that such repudiations and self-excusals (“ I was young and foolish” is common- perhaps that’s where George Bush, alleged President, learned it) are nothing more than damage control/spin control, and are unworthy [...] 9816 399 17_Fwd: Bushwhacking0_12_SHX2@aol.com29_Thu, 12 Apr 2001 23:25:28 EDT17_US-ASCII

10216 36 3_Re:8_Ephraims14_cbma@erols.com31_Fri, 13 Apr 2001 01:22:01 +0000418_us-ascii Aubrey

I guess it wouldn't surprise you that I don't agree with you. I don't think you can see the point I was making, and I think I understand but don't accept your point because our outlooks are so different.

I'm really not into arguing - people feel the way they feel. What I don't understand is the "straw man" reference. I've never heard that before. Please explain if you're willing. [...] 10253 305 55_Fw: Off Topic: Educational Websites about the Holocaust7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Fri, 13 Apr 2001 01:16:01 +0300747_iso-8859-1

----- Original Message ----- From: Jacob Richman To: Informal Aliyah discussion group Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2001 7:32 AM Subject: Off Topic: Educational Websites about the Holocaust



> Shalom. > > Holocaust Remembrance Day is Thursday, April 19th, 2001. > Below are 86 educational websites to learn about the Holocaust. > For your convenience, the sites are also hyper-linked online at: > http://www.jr.co.il/hotsites/j-holoc.htm > > We must not forget. > Jacob > > Yad Vashem - Jerusalem > http://www.yadvashem.org.il > > The Simon Wiesenthal Center > http://www.wiesenthal.com > > A Teacher's Guide to the Holocaust (USF) > http://fcit.coedu.usf.edu/Holocaust/ [...] 10559 38 18_For Yom Ha'atzmaut0_13_SC523@aol.com29_Fri, 13 Apr 2001 02:49:26 EDT669_US-ASCII Dear Habodancers,

This session is run by Haim Kaufman, a Red Hook (later Na'aleh) and Bronx ken alumnus from the 50s.



FOR THOSE IN OR AROUND NEW YORK CITY

ISRAELI FOLK DANCING IN THE CLASSIC TRADITION ON BROADWAY EVERY SUNDAY @ 8PM (EXCEPT IN THE SUMMER) ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ SPONSORED BY RIKUDAY DOR RISHON AT BRIDGE FOR DANCE 2726 BROADWAY @ 104TH ST. CONTRIBUTION: WEEKLY SESSION $5 SPECIAL EVENTS $10 INFORMATION AND SCHEDULE: (212) 620-0535, rdr@rikud.net or www.rikud.net ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ NEXT SPECIAL EVENT [...] 10598 866 23_Re: HABONET digest 185317_yoninamatz lamdan20_yoninamatz@yahoo.com37_Fri, 13 Apr 2001 01:44:21 -0700 (PDT)646_us-ascii Shalom! This is in regard to the upcoming Habonim Dance Festival. I suggest that you contact Lior and Joel Kirman,,,,,,67-52 131st St. Flushing, NY Tel 718-9692113 They're old-time Habonim friends from NY who have never stopped dancing, and come every year to Israel to participate in the dance festivals here! Worth contacting them. Hag Sameach! Yonina/Matz Kibbutz Urim, Negev, Israel --- Habonim Dror Alumni Virtual Machaneh wrote: > > HABONET Digest 1853 > > Topics covered in this issue include: > > 1) Habonim Dance Ensemble Makes Comeback! > by SC523@aol.com > 2) Holocaust Survivors & US Justice Dept. [...] 11465 523 35_Fw: Jewishly Offensive "BC" Cartoon22_Deborah M Tanzer-Cohen15_candeb@juno.com31_Fri, 13 Apr 2001 11:32:17 -0500602_-



Dear Chevre, Heads up on this Sunday's comics (BC is not in the Tribune, so post if you see it elsewhere). Deborah Tanzer-Cohen

Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 01:39:39 -0400 Subject: Jewishly Offensive "BC" Cartoon Message-ID: <20010413.013943.-73481.2.prbdjb@juno.com>



The BC cartoon for this Sunday is anti-Semitic.

It depicts the destruction of Judaism by Christianity and shows the cross replacing the menorah as the dominant religious symbol. The menorah, before it is destroyed is used to pass on ldquo;the seven last lsquo;wordsrsquo; of Jesusrdquo;. [...] 11989 38 39_Re: Fw: Jewishly Offensive "BC" Cartoon0_15_DebALev@aol.com29_Fri, 13 Apr 2001 12:47:08 EDT315_US-ASCII I will be on the lookout for it, and of course will let the newspapers here that run BC know.........sounds outrageous. Do you know of any place the cartoon can be viewed on the web BEFORE it's published by the papers? They do have it on their web sites, but only when it appears in the paper itself. [...] 12028 28 41_Re: Micha's participation- Enough already0_18_Green88888@aol.com29_Fri, 13 Apr 2001 18:26:49 EDT542_US-ASCII I had not checked my e-mail for a few days, only to return to what seems to me to have been a ridiculous discussion on whether or not to allow an adult child of Habonet members to participate in discussions on this site. I didn't realize we were such an exclusive club or that this was such a huge problem! To memory, this "problem" has only occured one or two other times. Personally, I find it refreshing that a young adult would take the time and energy to want to comment on this site. I find it somewhat disconcerting that [...] 12057 46 41_Re: Micha's participation- Enough already13_aubrey jasper22_aubreyjasper@yahoo.com37_Fri, 13 Apr 2001 18:49:24 -0700 (PDT)653_us-ascii Chevre,

We may welcome contrasting opinions from responsible adults. We need not welcome vindictive personal attacks from anyone, member or interloper. Civility, respect and common decency have been sorely lacking in the comments of certain members and non-members alike. Such reprehensible misconduct was bad enough when it was acted out by 15-year-olds in camp. It is intolerable when it is foisted upon a mature, intelligent group by those with a mean streak or terminal immaturity, regardless of political agenda. It should not be tolerated from anyone, and , yes, it IS particularly offensive to have ANY of our chevre smeared [...] 12104 284 12_The BC Comic13_Judith Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Sat, 14 Apr 2001 00:47:39 -0400311_us-ascii Dear Chevreh-

I am sending this because some of you asked to see the BC comic. Note that this comes from the JDL website. Please do not interpret my forwarding this page as an endorsement of the opinions JDL expresses or as anything other than a favor to those who wanted to see the comic. [...] 12389 52 16_Re: The BC Comic0_18_Rachelbern@aol.com29_Sat, 14 Apr 2001 04:27:20 EDT485_US-ASCII Wake up and smell the lilies! Johnny Hart often puts heavy-handed Christian messages in his comic strip, and he's been going all out on Easter Sunday for years.* At the risk of giving the JDL something else to scream about, I have to say I think that the people who are going to find anti-Semitism in this cartoon or see it as "...telling Christians to destroy [the Jewish] religion in the name of Jesus" are those Jews who find it in any expression of Christian belief. [...] 12442 213 8_BC, etc.13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il31_Sat, 14 Apr 2001 13:49:17 +0200420_windows-1255 This is Johnny Hart's take on the cartoon:



STATEMENT FROM JOHNNY HART REGARDING THE B.C. COMIC STRIP FOR RELEASE APRIL 15, 2001 The true purpose of Christmas and Easter is to honor a man. The same man, Jesus. They are not designated holidays to honor red-suited Santas or egg-laden bunnies. Yet, whenever I try to honor this man of men, for whom these days are set aside, hackles go up. [...] 12656 78 16_Re: The BC Comic29_Richard Steacy & Esther Cohen22_richard.steacy@gte.net31_Sat, 14 Apr 2001 08:12:53 -0400590_iso-8859-1 thanks, rachel. i'm guessing that you read the same interview with johnny hart a few years (?) back that i did. -esther ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2001 4:27 AM Subject: Re: The BC Comic



> Wake up and smell the lilies! Johnny Hart often puts heavy-handed Christian > messages in his comic strip, and he's been going all out on Easter Sunday for > years.* At the risk of giving the JDL something else to scream about, I have > to say I think that the people who are going to find [...] 12735 44 20_Hart interview, etc.0_18_Rachelbern@aol.com29_Sat, 14 Apr 2001 12:48:20 EDT476_US-ASCII Yes, Esther, must have been same interview. I didn't reread it when I found it in the Post archives last night, but if I recall correctly: it was written in anticipation of another clearly religious Easter cartoon, and Hart said similar things to those in the press release Jon sent in, that he is a believing Christian drawing and writing about what is sacred to him (a courtesy we can surely extend without fearing the end of the Jewish people come Monday...) [...] 12780 30 44_Re: Vhegadetah L'bincha..a response to Aliya0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com29_Sat, 14 Apr 2001 12:52:15 EDT477_US-ASCII Both my son speak Hebrew. Both were born in the Israel and has served in Tzahal. One is a boger habonim. Both of them are pro pig skin only in football season. They are Steelers fans and would like nothing better than to see the Baltimore Ravens wrapped in pigskin. Both are too busy dealing with their own chevra and lives to comment on Habonet, so in their name let me say let take the liberty of offering what I know would be their take on the pigskin issue.. [...] 12811 36 44_Re: Vhegadetah L'bincha..a response to Aliya0_15_DebALev@aol.com29_Sat, 14 Apr 2001 12:55:57 EDT192_US-ASCII Sam, glad to see your guys are worshipping the One True Religion in Pittsburgh!

Debbie in alien Seahawk country (is that the football team here? oh, I'm SUCH a sports fan (not) 12848 249 16_RE: The BC Comic12_Dave Edelman21_docdave@optonline.net31_Sat, 14 Apr 2001 15:31:26 -0400526_US-ASCII Chaverim / Chaverot

We were just in the process of making it impossible (or at least very hard) for a child of a happy Habonetter to post on this forum when what do I spy with my little eyes? A posting including a web page from the JDL!

Woe is me, do I detect the faintest bit of inconsistency here? In the good old days T most of us would have crossed the street to avoid those near-human life forms. They always seemed to be a bit like Betarnikim, As long as they are through the gate I might as [...] 13098 38 29_The BC Comic--Washington Post0_15_Marshlf@aol.com29_Sat, 14 Apr 2001 16:52:07 EDT263_US-ASCII Just picked up my copy of the Washington Post. The BC comic is not in there. I haven't checked other sections for a disclaimer or other article about the issue. I'm surprised that the Post would actually exercise this type of prior restraint.

lisa 13137 76 24_Re: Hart interview, etc.29_Richard Steacy & Esther Cohen22_richard.steacy@gte.net31_Sat, 14 Apr 2001 17:03:31 -0400584_iso-8859-1 what do you mean, "still read the comics?" as if they aren't the primary reason to get the paper?? obits first (they're quick), to check on friends of parents and parents' friends (not to mention "important people"), the funnies to find out what's going on in the world, then letters to the editors (+ close to home, free for all, depending on the day) to get clarification of what's going on in the world. oh, and if time allows, the metro - i'm a hometown girl, after all, and maybe the front section. -esther ----- Original Message ----- From: [...] 13214 50 44_Re: Vhegadetah L'bincha..a response to Aliya0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com29_Sat, 14 Apr 2001 23:22:18 EDT581_US-ASCII I thought this forum was for intelligent, ex-habonimers to discuss important issues of the day and spread new gossip when possible. And then I am subjected to the harangues of a Pittsburgh Steeler fan. It is obvious that his comment about wrapping the Ravens in pigskin is a dig at out Jewish owner. Why Brian (fearless leader) do you allow such obvious anti-Semitism to besmirch the integrity of this forum? I was offended by the fact we even allow Steeler fans a place on this list but the offensive comments about pigskin and the WORLD CHAMPION RAVENS is just the [...] 13265 30 23_Re: HABONET digest 18530_13_SC523@aol.com29_Sun, 15 Apr 2001 05:11:46 EDT335_US-ASCII Dear Yonina,

1)Could you kindly contact the Kirmans unless they have an email address? Imagine if I were to contact every person someone on Habonet asked me to call about the Festival - in addition to coordinating the Dance Ensemble itself which is taking a million hours (it seems)? Thanks for helping with this. [...] 13296 21 9_Apologies0_13_SC523@aol.com29_Sun, 15 Apr 2001 05:13:36 EDT448_US-ASCII Dear Habonet,

EMail to Yonina Matz was intended to be personal - not on Habonet. Please excuse.

ACC

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 13318 26 13_Re: Apologies11_Noam Stopak26_n.stopak@scienceserver.com31_Sun, 15 Apr 2001 07:41:57 -0400559_us-ascii That sounds like a sincere apology to me. Richard - I hope that will suffice.

SC523@aol.com wrote:

> Dear Habonet, > > EMail to Yonina Matz was intended to be personal - not on Habonet. Please > excuse. > > ACC

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 13345 120 44_Re: Vhegadetah L'bincha..a response to Aliya29_Richard Steacy & Esther Cohen22_richard.steacy@gte.net31_Sun, 15 Apr 2001 10:17:08 -0400378_iso-8859-1 football, shmootball! how about our washington freedom - let's hear it for mia hamm (oops! can i use her name on habonet?) and her crew! -esther cohen mosh '70-75 lifelong washingtonian ----- Original Message ----- From: Richardrdsmith@aol.com To: habonet@shamash.org Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2001 11:22 PM Subject: Re: Vhegadetah L'bincha..a response to Aliya [...] 13466 303 40_Educational Websites about the Holocaust7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Sun, 15 Apr 2001 22:26:31 +0300736_iso-8859-1

----- Original Message ----- From: Jacob Richman Educational Websites about the Holocaust



> Shalom. > > Holocaust Remembrance Day is Thursday, April 19th, 2001. > Below are 86 educational websites to learn about the Holocaust. > For your convenience, the sites are also hyper-linked online at: > http://www.jr.co.il/hotsites/j-holoc.htm > > We must not forget. > Jacob > > Yad Vashem - Jerusalem > http://www.yadvashem.org.il > > The Simon Wiesenthal Center > http://www.wiesenthal.com > > A Teacher's Guide to the Holocaust (USF) > http://fcit.coedu.usf.edu/Holocaust/ > > Holocaust Teacher Resource Center (TRC) > http://www.Holocaust-trc.org/ > > Cybrary of the Holocaust > [...] 13770 83 26_Joe Glazer in Philadelphia16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Mon, 16 Apr 2001 09:32:19 -0400410_us-ascii This event should be of interest to all Philadelphia area Habonim folk. Joe Glazer is the dean of labor folk singers. (Some of you may recall my singing his ballad "The Lady with the Popular Front" from the album My Darling Party Line which he recorded with Abe Brumberg, former editor of Problems of Communism.) Further trivia: Joe is the older brother of the eminent sociologist Nathan Glazer. [...] 13854 52 26_BC and The Washington Post11_Roslyn Lang26_langr@gunet.georgetown.edu31_Mon, 16 Apr 2001 09:35:11 -0400328_US-ASCII The Post says they do not run BC on Sundays at all; so it was not "prior restraint" that kept this one out of the paper, but the fact that it was a Sunday cartoon. (Although perhaps the reason they don't run his Sunday cartoons it that he has done this before on Easter Sunday - or it could just be a space issue) [...] 13907 219 31_Re: KID SISTER By Israel Shamir13_Marcia Plager26_grandrapidsm@earthlink.net31_Mon, 16 Apr 2001 07:05:24 -0700582_us-ascii Phil

Thanks for your explanation. I still don't get it. That's probably OK. I'm approaching the 60 year old mark (two more years) and I've reconciled myself to the fact that there are going to be some things on this planet that I won't understand.

Be well

Steve

Phil Safier wrote:

> Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2001 23:01:57 -0700 > From: Marcia Plager > Dear Phil > re: the Israel Shamir article................ I don't get it. > Steve Klein > > Hey Steve, > > Thanks for the opportunity to discuss Shamir's points. I get 2 major themes: > > [...] 14127 216 29_Fwd: Global Online Conference0_15_DebALev@aol.com29_Mon, 16 Apr 2001 18:05:38 EDT14_ISO-8859-1 FYI 14344 306 33_Re: Fwd: Global Online Conference13_Marcia Plager26_grandrapidsm@earthlink.net31_Mon, 16 Apr 2001 17:10:14 -0700472_us-ascii



DebALev@aol.com wrote:

> FYI > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: Global Online Conference > Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 17:50:17 -0400 > From: info@Kosherfinder.com > To: > > GLOBAL ONLINE CONFERENCE www.insiders.ohr.edu

[Image] "Jerusalem: The Insiders Speak Out," [Image] Thursday, May 17, 2001 12:00 p.m. to 2:00 p.m. EDT

UPDATE FROM JERUSALEM ON PEACE TALKS [...] 14651 50 28_Re: Global Online Conference0_15_DebALev@aol.com29_Mon, 16 Apr 2001 20:16:22 EDT443_US-ASCII I had trouble downloading this attachment.......I had already sent it to the list, but cut and pasted it into the text. Or, at least I THINK it was the same thing (not sure since I couldn't read it).

Please do NOT send attachments, but copy and past it into a regular email. Attachments can send viruses, so some folks NEVER open them, and as I said before, some programs cannot read others. AOHell is notorious for that. [...] 14702 39 54_Re: JUST thought that should have been sent a year ago0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com29_Tue, 17 Apr 2001 18:28:10 EDT477_US-ASCII

If this were any test of sincerity, they are a bunch of thugs. The sooner we come to terms with that and let them fend for themselves, the better our things will be

The city of Hebron was positioned in the Arab (Palestinian ) sector. Some Jews wanted to remain or settle in Hebron , as was their right. The Israeli government in all it"s wisdom decided to honor and support this idea by partioning the city and sending troops to enforce this idea. [...] 14742 20 54_Re: JUST thought that should have been sent a year ago0_15_DebALev@aol.com29_Tue, 17 Apr 2001 19:32:21 EDT586_ISO-8859-1 I'm a little confused; maybe it's just that the original note has not appeared to me yet, but this didn't make a lot of sense. Who is Baruch? Is that your good-looking dad, Benjy? When was the original note sent?

Curiosly yours,

Debbie

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 14763 67 8_AGITPROP13_aubrey jasper22_aubreyjasper@yahoo.com37_Tue, 17 Apr 2001 16:57:46 -0700 (PDT)626_us-ascii Chevre,

As you may know, agitprop is a term originally used by

communist and socialist radical groups (starting in the '30's, I believe). Comrade Shamir's article is classic agitprop (agitation/propaganda). As in all agitprop, a little truth is blended with much fiction so as to justify one's radical political agenda. The idea is to persuade others while hiding one's actual agenda, to the extent possible. Of course, it is all wrapped in the cloak of peace and justice. Stalin did this, and so did Hitler's propaganda agents. The People's Republic of China is doing so now, in relation to their [...] 14831 88 12_Re: AGITPROP0_13_Mmxmm@aol.com29_Tue, 17 Apr 2001 20:40:50 EDT389_US-ASCII In a message dated 4/17/2001 4:58:41 PM Pacific Daylight Time, aubreyjasper@yahoo.com writes:



> As you may know, agitprop is a term originally used by > > communist and socialist radical groups (starting in > the '30's, I believe). > Comrade Shamir's article is classic agitprop > (agitation/propaganda). > As in all agitprop, a little truth is blended with > [...] 14920 66 12_Re: AGITPROP13_aubrey jasper22_aubreyjasper@yahoo.com37_Tue, 17 Apr 2001 18:24:10 -0700 (PDT)556_us-ascii Dear Mmxmm,

What is your real name? Mine is Aubrey Jasper, as indicated in my email address. It is unfortunate that you appear to resort to the tactics from which I asked one and all to refrain. You do so right from the start, by calling me Comrade Aubrey. I called Shamir Comrade because of the agitprop which he spewed. I did not do so. Furthermore, I don't think he's a Habomin alumnus. If he is, I apologize and withdraw the term Comrade. The rest of my critique of him remains valid. You refer to the possibility of bitter truth. [...] 14987 76 12_Re: AGITPROP0_13_Mmxmm@aol.com29_Tue, 17 Apr 2001 22:27:09 EDT580_US-ASCII In a message dated 4/17/2001 6:24:49 PM Pacific Daylight Time, aubreyjasper@yahoo.com writes:





>



I say better...you say?

I refer to Shamir as a true comrade in arms since we served side by side in the paratroops.

And for those who would like to learn more about the man behind the demon I refer you to the following link. http://shamir.mediamonitors.net/archive.html [...] 15064 72 12_Re: AGITPROP13_aubrey jasper22_aubreyjasper@yahoo.com37_Tue, 17 Apr 2001 20:22:45 -0700 (PDT)574_us-ascii Yes, better is spelled with 2 of the letter 't'. I specifically addressed the possibility that you had a mere typo, rather than ignorance of how to spell a word. You didn't address that in your response about the word propagate. You also failed to grant me the courtesy I granted you, of allowing for the possibility of a mere typo in my spelling. You exhibit a pattern of ungracious behavior. In your first posting, you did not mention that shamir had been a paratrooper. Obviously, I was criticizing what I felt to be an exaggerated and unfair article which [...] 15137 202 19_Re: AGITPROP (long)0_15_DebALev@aol.com29_Wed, 18 Apr 2001 00:05:19 EDT333_US-ASCII As Marc suggested, I took a look at the link he supplied. I suggest that other Habonetters do the same. Here are some quotes from the six articles I read by Shamir (it was all I could take); you should know, too, that I lean to the left and do think Israel has done some major wrongs. Here are some quotes from Shamir: [...] 15340 221 12_Re: AGITPROP11_Phil Safier17_psafier@elixa.com31_Tue, 17 Apr 2001 22:36:42 -0600 15562 33 26_Midwest Kumsitz Coming Up!0_13_SC523@aol.com29_Wed, 18 Apr 2001 02:26:27 EDT504_US-ASCII For all chevreh from cities driving distance to Chicago:

A kumzitz will be held on Sunday, April 22, 2001, at 7:30 pm At the home of Larry & Arlene Miller, 5114 Elm St., Skokie, IL RSVP: 847-676-2653 Led by Eileen Fineberg Evans, Aliya Cheskis-Cotel and Michael Zurakov Please bring a nosh. Directions to Larry & Arlene's: Edens Expwy (94) to Dempster East. 2 blocks to Gross Point Road. South (right)to stoplight, turn left on Laramie. Go 5 short blocks to Elm, turn left, to 5114. [...] 15596 91 12_Re: AGITPROP11_Noam Stopak26_n.stopak@scienceserver.com31_Wed, 18 Apr 2001 09:36:30 -0400640_us-ascii

Aubrey,

aubrey jasper wrote:

> Chevre, > > As you may know, agitprop is a term originally used by > > communist and socialist radical groups (starting in > the '30's, I believe). >



> > Shamir excoriates an exclusively Jewish state. He > doesn't mention thata it's not exlusively Jewish. He > doesn't mention that it's surrounded by a load of > exclusively Muslim Arab states, and an exclusively > Muslim Arab Palestinian entity. He doesn't mention > that they don't permit religious tolerance or [...] 15688 22 30_Re: Midwest Kumsitz Coming Up!22_Deborah M Tanzer-Cohen15_candeb@juno.com31_Wed, 18 Apr 2001 11:23:50 -0500601_- Got the dates mixed up. I'll be there. Deb ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 15711 16 30_Re: Midwest Kumsitz Coming Up!0_13_SC523@aol.com29_Wed, 18 Apr 2001 13:58:19 EDT347_US-ASCII YAY!!!!!!ACC

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 15728 74 12_Re: AGITPROP0_15_DebALev@aol.com29_Wed, 18 Apr 2001 14:51:03 EDT370_US-ASCII In a message dated 4/17/01 9:37:00 PM Pacific Daylight Time, psafier@elixa.com writes:



> I expressed my dismay at the current confused affairs in which thoughtful > Jews find themselves and quoted Shamir as one of the better examples of > this sentiment. If you can help us see the light, we welcome your wisdom. > Spare us the mudslinging. [...] 15803 60 12_Re: AGITPROP11_Noam Stopak26_n.stopak@scienceserver.com31_Wed, 18 Apr 2001 14:59:55 -0400577_us-ascii



DebALev@aol.com wrote:

> ... > Phil, I've read Shamir's articles. If this is one of the "better examples" > of the confused affairs in which "thoughtful Jews" find themselves, it is > extremely distressing. > > As someone who has been refused an apartment and has lost a job because I was > Jewish, I'd like to ask you how any "thoughtful" Jew could agree with the > statements I quoted from Shamir's writings. > > How about getting back to the ISSUES? Interesting that both you and Norm are > responding to Aubrey in the way that you did, [...] 15864 110 12_Re: AGITPROP0_15_DebALev@aol.com29_Wed, 18 Apr 2001 15:08:39 EDT598_US-ASCII I KNOW your name is Noam. But both you and Phil responded to Aubrey's original note.

No, I do NOT see Aubrey's note in the same way that you do. Here's where we disagree:

Among other things, Aubrey said: > > Shamir excoriates an exclusively Jewish state. He > doesn't mention thata it's not exlusively Jewish. He > doesn't mention that it's surrounded by a load of > exclusively Muslim Arab states, and an exclusively > Muslim Arab Palestinian entity. He doesn't mention > that they don't permit religious tolerance or > democracy. > In short, his tract is traditional, [...] 15975 96 12_Re: AGITPROP11_Noam Stopak26_n.stopak@scienceserver.com31_Wed, 18 Apr 2001 15:33:11 -0400565_us-ascii



DebALev@aol.com wrote:

> I KNOW your name is Noam.

But you wrote Norm - "Interesting that both you and Norm are responding to Aubrey in the way that you did..."

> But both you and Phil responded to Aubrey's > original note. > > No, I do NOT see Aubrey's note in the same way that you do. Here's where we > disagree: > > Among other things, Aubrey said: > > > > Shamir excoriates an exclusively Jewish state. He > > doesn't mention thata it's not exlusively Jewish. He > > doesn't mention that it's surrounded by a [...] 16072 232 19_Re: AGITPROP (long)13_Yuval Warshai16_warshais@tir.com31_Wed, 18 Apr 2001 17:12:54 -0400581_Windows-1252 Debbie,

The Israel Shamir controversy appears to be just beginning to rage. I've been reading today a heated exchange between him and two American Palestinian activists that we once involved in the organization of his current US tour, and have since been trying to dissociate themselves personally from what they perceive to be an anti-Semitic bias and tone in his writing. I have been myself mulling the problems involved in the themes he chooses to confront and the way he does for a while, and I don't want to pronounce myself yet one way or the other. [...] 16305 64 17_Lord of the Flies13_aubrey jasper22_aubreyjasper@yahoo.com37_Wed, 18 Apr 2001 20:59:45 -0700 (PDT)528_us-ascii Come on, folks, this is like swatting flies! I accurately described the exact nature of Mr. Shamir's diatribe, and accurately pointed out its historical context. Even if Shamir believes all he says, he is trying to make his points in exactly the unfair, umworthy way which I described. And, yes, he follows exactly the agitprop techniques refined by the Soviet Union, Red China and North Korea. This is not mere mudslinging. This is a factual description. An honest reading of Mr. Shamir's works will bear me out. [...] 16370 60 21_Noam's cheery message13_aubrey jasper22_aubreyjasper@yahoo.com37_Wed, 18 Apr 2001 21:21:25 -0700 (PDT)625_us-ascii Noam Stopak's response makes some interesting points. He is correct that some Arab states are not exclusively Muslim. Lebanon, for example, has had a heated exchange going on since 1975 between its Christian and Muslim segments. Iran, although not an Arab state, is a Muslim military dictatorship. It has given special attention to its Jews recently, in some remarkable show trials in which a butcher , among others, was convicted of spying for Israel. Iran also has persecuted and murdered its other religious minorities. Iraq has given affirmative homicide to its Kurds, and to the "Marsh Arabs", who had the [...] 16431 38 19_Re: AGITPROP (long)13_Yuval Warshai16_warshais@tir.com31_Thu, 19 Apr 2001 10:26:51 -0400564_Windows-1252 Thanks for a good reply and good points to add up, Sam. [Such as the one about Meir Pail, for example; and, of course, the Altalena affair. Not to mention our pacific civil rebellion against then Defense Minister Sharon in 1982, which kept him out of power until 2001. It is not like any of these hard-line right-wingers had an easy rosy ride to power. Begin ended up incapable of speaking, Shamir had to start negotiations with the PLO at Madrid, Bibi is still waiting in the wings, and Sharon did become prime minister after all. But if we can [...] 16470 138 59_Fw: Muslim Criticism of the Use of Children in the Intifada7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Wed, 18 Apr 2001 22:57:40 +0300547_iso-8859-1

----- Original > > Muslim Criticism of the Use of Children in the Intifada > > > > The London based daily Al-Hayat published a letter by S'ud > > Ibn Muhammad Al-'Aqili, from the King Fahd National Library > > in Saudi Arabia, which condemned the Palestinian > > Authority's use of children in the Intifada. Following are > > excerpts from the letter: > > > > > > "It is difficult for me to talk about this subject while > > [Muslim] clerics keep silent and evade it... No doubt, > > everybody heard of the religious-legal [...] 16609 41 63_Re: Fw: Muslim Criticism of the Use of Children in the Intifada10_Ori Siegel17_oris@interlog.com31_Thu, 19 Apr 2001 12:21:32 -0400369_us-ascii At 10:57 PM 2001-04-18 +0300, Skolnik wrote:

>----- Original > > Muslim Criticism of the Use of Children in the Intifada > >"The woman in Islam is not obliged to Jihad, except for a >Jihad that does not involve fighting...

and:

>"In the battle of Badr several Muslims were denied a role >in the fighting because of their young age... [...] 16651 32 11_Re:Agitprop12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Thu, 19 Apr 2001 21:40:11 +0200656_us-ascii

Haverim/ot April is the cruelest month wrote Israel Shamir quoting the famously antisemitic poet T. S. Eliot. One of Eliot's malodorous lines aimed at returning his genteel English readers to the medieval stereotype of the Jew as avaricious extortioner will suffice: "My house is a decayed house,/and the jew squats on the window sill, the owner/spawned in some estaminet (small cafe)of Antwerp/..." Shamir excels at theatrical allusions but his history is lousy. Writing about the armored trucks lining the road through Sha'ar Ha-Gai (Bab El Wad) to Jerusalem he plays theatre critic: "The rusted junk is barely an adequate backdrop [...] 16684 76 44_Sometimes I wonder about these conversations14_Barry Grushkin26_103640.2135@compuserve.com31_Thu, 19 Apr 2001 16:08:25 -0400565_us-ascii Jews are the masters of self criticism Jews are the masters of producing Jews that criticize Jews The world is, out of all proportion, full of people who are masters at criticizing Jews We survive in a world which we accept as adequate and human But how many use the yardstick of perfection to measure Jews The slightest slip and we are condemned Evenhandedness, what is that? Far out of proportion evil in the world has been blamed on Jews Far out of proportion evil doers stuck together and said, "not us!" You can always uncover bad, even with the [...] 16761 20 12_Re: Agitprop0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com29_Thu, 19 Apr 2001 18:34:35 EDT412_US-ASCII I am deeply moved by your posting Amnon



Sam Flesher Pittsburgh

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 16782 43 21_Another Point of View12_Dave Edelman21_docdave@optonline.net31_Thu, 19 Apr 2001 22:57:35 -0400299_US-ASCII I think that the follow quote from something that recently bubbled to the top of my desk may be of interest. For those of you who may not understand, my desk is a mysterious place with depths unplumbed that sometimes gives rise to the most amazing things. With no further ado I quote: [...] 16826 57 12_Re: AGITPROP13_aubrey jasper22_aubreyjasper@yahoo.com37_Thu, 19 Apr 2001 20:16:14 -0700 (PDT)571_us-ascii Bravo to Deb for stating the facts as they are, sans ideological sugar-coating and devoid of the personal malice so often evident instead of thoughtful exchanges of well-founded ideas on complex issues. I thank her! --- DebALev@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 4/17/01 9:37:00 PM Pacific > Daylight Time, > psafier@elixa.com writes: > > > > I expressed my dismay at the current confused > affairs in which thoughtful > > Jews find themselves and quoted Shamir as one of > the better examples of > > this sentiment. If you can help us see the light, > we [...] 16884 80 19_Water in the Desert13_aubrey jasper22_aubreyjasper@yahoo.com37_Thu, 19 Apr 2001 20:23:26 -0700 (PDT)550_us-ascii Once again, Debbie has graced us with a polite, thoughtful and well-reasoned analysis and rebuttal. We would all do well to follow her example. She graces us with the precious water of reason and courtesy, enriching the dolorous desert of desperate discord into which we have been cast by some of our chevre. Kudos and praise unto her! --- DebALev@aol.com wrote: > I KNOW your name is Noam. But both you and Phil > responded to Aubrey's > original note. > > No, I do NOT see Aubrey's note in the same way that > you do. Here's where we [...] 16965 77 19_Re: AGITPROP (long)0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com29_Fri, 20 Apr 2001 03:07:25 EDT542_US-ASCII Yoram

Look I think their may be something else at stake here too. Israel has always kept itself alive with some mythology. Every group does. And the myth of every group is full of lies. Israeli society has done a great deal to chip away and some of these myths. I think it was an act of maturity and courage for the country to air the documentary tkuma and all the changes in the misrad ha chinuch. I still will not close my ears to Benny Morris. But in these difficult existential times we must take care at which myths [...] 17043 34 47_FAMILY OF U.S. TERROR VICTIM SUES PA AND ARAFAT11_Batel Libes19_batel@realmedia.com31_Fri, 20 Apr 2001 12:14:29 -0700634_iso-8859-1 The following came across in a mailing I received from the Israeli Consulate in S.F. No comments intended, just a relay of an interesting item.

FAMILY OF U.S. TERROR VICTIM SUES PA AND ARAFAT The family of Ash-Kodesh Gilmore, 25, a U.S. citizen killed on October 30, 2000 by Force 17 gunmen, while guarding the National Insurance Institute office in eastern Jerusalem is suing the Palestinian Authority, the PLO and PA Chairman Yasser Arafat for $250 million, THE JERUSALEM POST reported. Gilmore's widow, one-year old daughter, parents and five younger siblings filed the suit on Wednesday morning in the U.S. [...] 17078 137 30_Re: Aubrey's snappy rejoinders11_Noam Stopak26_n.stopak@scienceserver.com31_Fri, 20 Apr 2001 15:29:58 -0400487_us-ascii

aubrey jasper wrote:

> Noam Stopak's response makes some interesting points. > He is correct that some Arab states are not > exclusively Muslim. Lebanon, for example, has had a > heated exchange going on since 1975 between its > Christian and Muslim segments.

And Israelis have the makings of a fine exchange between various segments of the population in the future as well, as a number of the members of this list have pointed out from time to time. [...] 17216 23 23_Agitprop (Jewish Humor)12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Fri, 20 Apr 2001 22:56:16 +0200625_us-ascii Haverot/im Because Jewish humor has a way of deflecting histrionics, is so adept at putting kvetching into perspective; here's another take on the "The rusted junk" lining the road to Jerusalem since 1948. When the road to Jerusalem was almost hermetically cut in April '48 it was difficult to hold meetings of the Zionist executive. While offices were still in Jerusalem most of the members of the Executive, certainly the overseas members were in Tel Aviv. A special convoy composed of trucks carrying supplies and several armored busses was put together. Using up many favors, Maurice Samuel wangled a place [...] 17240 206 30_Re: Aubrey's snappy rejoinders13_aubrey jasper22_aubreyjasper@yahoo.com37_Fri, 20 Apr 2001 21:28:28 -0700 (PDT)568_us-ascii Noam,

Once again you have made interesting and valid points, but tarnished them with your churlish attacks on me personally. From now on, I will try to avoid comments about you which you may find objectionable , and I ask that you do the same for me.

I'm genuinely sorry that you thought I compared anyone to vermin. that's not what I meant. I meant that there were so many personal attacks launched against me , and that they were so persistently nasty, that I felt as though beset by a swarm. That's actually what I meant. I apologize to [...] 17447 22 12_comic relief0_18_Rachelbern@aol.com29_Sat, 21 Apr 2001 01:19:30 EDT546_US-ASCII One more thing about B.C., a gentle and though-provoking piece:

Click here: Johnny Hart and the 'R Word' - torah.org



Rachel

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 17470 62 13_Reply to Phil17_Efraim Perlmutter24_habesor@netvision.net.il31_Sat, 21 Apr 2001 06:03:42 +0200343_iso-8859-1 On 17 April Phil Safier wrote:

“So let's hear you dispute what the man says without tarring him first.

In Efraim Perlmutter's response to Shamir's writing, he did exactly the same thing by comparing him to Hitler and his writing to Mein Kampf as well as to The Protocols of the Elders of Zion. A bit extreme, no? [...] 17533 139 22_Reply to Yuval Warshai17_Efraim Perlmutter24_habesor@netvision.net.il31_Sat, 21 Apr 2001 08:08:39 +0200428_iso-8859-1 Yuval Warshai asked for a point by point refutation of “April Is the Cruelest Month” by Israel Shamir. This will have to be done in several installments as there is a great deal to refute.

Not only are Shamir’s facts incorrect but his choice of words mislead the reader and give a false image of events. For instance after discussing the pitch tour guides give to visitors he makes the following comment: [...] 17673 48 30_Re: Aubrey's snappy rejoinders11_Noam Stopak26_n.stopak@scienceserver.com31_Sat, 21 Apr 2001 08:58:10 -0400307_us-ascii aubrey jasper wrote:

> Noam, > > Once again you have made interesting and valid points, > but tarnished them with your churlish attacks on me > personally. From now on, I will try to avoid comments > about you which you may find objectionable , and I ask > that you do the same for me. [...] 17722 181 37_Second part of Reply to Yuval Warshai17_Efraim Perlmutter24_habesor@netvision.net.il31_Sat, 21 Apr 2001 15:42:36 +0200459_iso-8859-1 Second part of the point by point refutation of “April Is the Cruelest Month” by Israel Shamir.

Shamir uses only three sentences to describe the Deir Yassin massacre itself. Never-the-less, he manages to leave the reader with an impression that the scale of death and destruction at Deir Yassin ranks up there with the great massacres of history. This is an impression that is factually incorrect. Let us examine each sentence in turn. [...] 17904 55 63_Re: Fw: Muslim Criticism of the Use of Children in the Intifada7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Thu, 19 Apr 2001 23:15:04 +0300587_iso-8859-1 Sorry, but I did NOT write this, Ori, I just passed it on. Shabbat Shalom, Pearl

----- Original Message ----- From: Ori Siegel To: Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2001 7:21 PM Subject: Re: Fw: Muslim Criticism of the Use of Children in the Intifada



> At 10:57 PM 2001-04-18 +0300, Skolnik wrote: > > >----- Original > > Muslim Criticism of the Use of Children in the Intifada > > > >"The woman in Islam is not obliged to Jihad, except for a > >Jihad that does not involve fighting... > > and: > > >"In the battle [...] 17960 195 41_Re: Second part of Reply to Yuval Warshai7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Sat, 21 Apr 2001 23:19:24 +0300641_iso-8859-1 Ephraim, As usual: bul p'geiah! shavua tov, pearl ----- Original Message ----- From: Efraim Perlmutter To: Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2001 4:42 PM Subject: Second part of Reply to Yuval Warshai



> Second part of the point by point refutation of > "April Is the Cruelest Month" by Israel Shamir. > > Shamir uses only three sentences to describe the Deir Yassin > massacre itself. Never-the-less, he manages to leave the reader > with an impression that the scale of death and destruction at > Deir Yassin ranks up there with the great massacres of history. > This [...] 18156 24 16_Elon signing off10_Elon Shore17_erufus2@yahoo.com37_Sat, 21 Apr 2001 14:29:15 -0700 (PDT)632_us-ascii Hello Brian, Could you please take me off this list. My email is Erufus2@yahoo.com. It's been fun but some of this stuff is just too heavy.

__________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 18181 41 63_Re: Fw: Muslim Criticism of the Use of Children in the Intifada0_18_Rachelbern@aol.com29_Sat, 21 Apr 2001 19:36:37 EDT539_US-ASCII In a message dated 4/21/01 4:01:05 PM, skolnik@netvision.net.il writes:

<< Sorry, but I did NOT write this, Ori, I just passed it on. Shabbat Shalom,

Pearl>>

Pearl, If your email (above) was meant to defend your good name against the attribution in very first line of Ori's email, "At 10:57 PM 2001-04-18 +0300, Skolnik wrote:" I wonder if all the heavy-duty debates you've been part of on Habonet have left you so (justifiably) wary that you are looking just a wee bit too hard for possible slights :)? [...] 18223 92 21_Looking to the future13_aubrey jasper22_aubreyjasper@yahoo.com37_Sun, 22 Apr 2001 12:22:29 -0700 (PDT)562_us-ascii Noam,

Thanks for writing back. I will try to observe the degree of civility which you desire. Of course, I'll look for it in return. I did attack in my first posting on Shamir, but I was attacking both the 'substance' and the techniques he used. My description of the historical antecedents to his method was accurate, and was meant to alert those unfamiliar with it. It was not a personal attack on him. He may be a loving, devoted man, but his political writings left much to be desired. As for your statement "If you can't take the heat, [...] 18316 140 17_Sam, the good man13_aubrey jasper22_aubreyjasper@yahoo.com37_Sun, 22 Apr 2001 12:32:57 -0700 (PDT)558_us-ascii Sam (smfgrappa) has spoken out well and movingly. He depicted the threat posed by the Y. Shamirs of the world very clearly. This threat is exactly why I attacked Shamir's writings so strongly, and why I placed them in their proper historical context. Regards, Aubrey --- Smfgrappa@aol.com wrote: > Yoram > > Look I think their may be something else at stake > here too. Israel has always > kept itself alive with some mythology. Every group > does. And the myth of > every group is full of lies. Israeli society has > done a great deal to chip [...] 18457 83 20_Dave Edelman's Quote13_aubrey jasper22_aubreyjasper@yahoo.com37_Sun, 22 Apr 2001 12:39:05 -0700 (PDT)314_us-ascii Dave,

The unattributed quote you sent us is all too correct. It presents the dilemma and indicates that Israel cannot act as an unblemished moral beacon while its neighbors are trying to kill Israel. You've done us a service by shedding light on the situation. Who is the author of the quote? [...] 18541 130 12_Amnon Hadary13_aubrey jasper22_aubreyjasper@yahoo.com37_Sun, 22 Apr 2001 12:48:38 -0700 (PDT)634_us-ascii Amnon's letter regarding Shamir, T.S. Eliot, and so much more is moving beyond words. It leaves me uncharacteristically silent. Aubrey --- Amnon Hadary wrote: > > Haverim/ot > April is the cruelest month wrote Israel Shamir > quoting the famously antisemitic poet T. S. Eliot. > One of Eliot's malodorous lines aimed at returning > his genteel English readers to the medieval > stereotype of the Jew as avaricious extortioner will > suffice: "My house is a decayed house,/and the jew > squats on the window sill, the owner/spawned in some > estaminet (small cafe)of Antwerp/..." > Shamir excels [...] 18672 254 27_Yuval Warshai/April Cruelty13_aubrey jasper22_aubreyjasper@yahoo.com37_Sun, 22 Apr 2001 13:15:10 -0700 (PDT)569_us-ascii I am persuaded that war is bad, and to be avoided when possible. I am persuaded that war brings out the worst in far more people than those in whom it brings out the best. I am persuaded that,in any war, atrocities are committed on both sides. Therefore, side A cannot win the moral high ground by proving atrocities committed by side B. Shamir and Palestinian propagandists do this all the time. Even if Israeli propagandists do the same, it is no more a condemnation of them than of the other side. These attacks are irrelevant, and meant to obfuscate. [...] 18927 113 12_my apologies7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Mon, 23 Apr 2001 00:04:24 +0300534_windows-1255 Susie, You are braver than I am. You defended me in public, not in private letters to me. Although I appreciated the letters chaverim wrote me privately to encourage me to continue writing and was very moved by them, I understood their retinance to defend me on the list and risk attack. I am still grateful to them for all their letters. You were never afraid. So I apologize to you and Micha that it has taken me so long to stand up for you in public, risking the ire of people on this list who know only too well [...] 19041 86 24_RE: Dave Edelman's Quote12_Dave Edelman21_docdave@optonline.net31_Sun, 22 Apr 2001 18:16:51 -0400575_us-ascii Aubrey,

Several people have contacted me off-list about the quote. There is no question that I did have an ulterior motive is posting an unattributed quote. For some reason my previous three posts seem to have gone unnoticed and I had hoped to elicit some response by omitting the citation. The author is M.S Arnoni and it was published in "The Minority of One" in January of 1968. You and some other list members might remember Seth, his son. For those who do not remember, or never knew the journal, let's just say right wing it wasn't. I am enclosing [...] 19128 373 16_RE: my apologies12_Dave Edelman21_docdave@optonline.net31_Sun, 22 Apr 2001 18:32:47 -0400482_windows-1255 Pearl,

While I don’t think that we will often be on the same side of an argument, I too have been receiving off-list messages from people who have stated that they were afraid of attack were they to risk discussion of one or more of my postings.

While I have no issue with spirited exchange, I wonder if we are not effecting our own form of prior restraint by making it abundantly clear that you post at your own peril and the attack may be vicious. [...] 19502 347 39_Fwd: observations about the middle east11_Ezra Gordon12_egor@uic.edu31_Sun, 22 Apr 2001 23:36:52 -0500678_us-ascii

Political observations From: "Gershon Baskin, Ph.D."

>> April 19, 2001 >Political Observation #1 >>>> It should be quite obvious to everyone that there is >>>> a complete and total >>>> absence of any strategic thinking on both the >>>> Israeli and Palestinian sides. >>>> >>>> Political Observation #2 >>>> Political thinking and strategic planning for both >>>> Israel and the Palestinians >>>> has been replaced by Newtonian physics for every >>>> action there is a reaction >>>> usually unplanned and uncontrolled and often >>>> disproportinate. >>>> >>>> Political Observation #3 >>>> It is no longer important to engage in [...] 19850 201 70_Fw: Off Topic: 53 websites about Israel (Independence Day is April 26)7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Mon, 23 Apr 2001 08:30:00 +0300727_iso-8859-1

----- Original Message ----- From: Jacob Richman To: Informal Aliyah discussion group Sent: Monday, April 23, 2001 12:19 AM Subject: Off Topic: 53 websites about Israel (Independence Day is April 26)



> Hi Everyone! > This Thursday, April 26, is Israel Independence Day. > In honor of Israel's 53rd birthday, below are 50 websites > that will help you learn about this ancient / modern country. > For your convenience, the sites are also hyper-linked online at: > http://www.jr.co.il/hotsites/j-hdayil.htm > > Shalom, > Jacob > > Israel Foreign Ministry Facts about Israel > http://www.israel-mfa.gov.il/mfa/go.asp?MFAH00080 > > The International [...] 20052 60 20_Dave's bubbling desk7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Mon, 23 Apr 2001 08:32:10 +0300297_windows-1255 Dave, your comment about the bubbling contents of your desk reminded me of a quote I once read: "If I am a better historian than others it is because I have a bigger desk than they do."

I think almost any profession can adopt this saying. I very much enjoy your postings. pearl 20113 28 38_Re: observations about the middle east0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com29_Mon, 23 Apr 2001 07:28:15 EDT534_US-ASCII In a message dated 4/23/01 12:38:55 AM Eastern Daylight Time, egor@uic.edu writes:

<< egor@uic.edu >>

All our holy talk of wonderful debate is shamed by this simple comon sense posting. The time for debate on Habonet has past.

Those who chose to respond to of fiddle with provocative but poorly thought out postings will continue to stick their head in the sand. The truth hurts. The truth redeems. This Ezra has just posted the truth as spoken by Gershon Baskin. It deserves to be read and reread. [...] 20142 77 17_Baskin's Analysis13_aubrey jasper22_aubreyjasper@yahoo.com37_Mon, 23 Apr 2001 07:15:32 -0700 (PDT)310_us-ascii Gershon Baskin has indeed written much common sense. The Yisrael Shamirs of this world, and their apologists, if any, will never accept it. Neither will the PLO, Syria, Iran, Iraq, Hezbollah, Force 17, the Tanzim and so on ad nauseum.This is tragic but true. As Mr. Baskin said, the truth hurts. [...] 20220 48 21_Re: Baskin's Analysis13_Yuval Warshai16_warshais@tir.com31_Mon, 23 Apr 2001 11:25:50 -0400511_Windows-1252 Somehow the previous comentator skipped over the most important, in my view, of Dr. Baskin's observations:

> Political Observation #17 > Israel will never achieve peace for its people if it > continues to build settlements, expropriate > Palestinian lands, builds by-pass roads, and > demolishes Palestinians homes, fields and means > of livelihood. Israel should begin to educate its public > that it must withdraw from settlements, not to > build new ones and expand existing others. [...] 20269 26 16_Yuval's Analysis13_aubrey jasper22_aubreyjasper@yahoo.com37_Mon, 23 Apr 2001 09:50:35 -0700 (PDT)385_us-ascii I agree with what Yuval pointed out. I must point out, in turn, that I did not "somehow" "skip over" this observation by Dr. Baskin. I specifically stated, near the end of my posting, that I agreed with nearly everything that Dr. Baskin had written, other than the points upon which I had commented. I wish all our postings, including mine, were of Dr. Baskin's caliber. [...] 20296 151 45_Re: Baskin's Analysis and other recent topics11_Noam Stopak26_n.stopak@scienceserver.com31_Mon, 23 Apr 2001 13:19:51 -0400436_us-ascii

aubrey jasper wrote:

> Gershon Baskin has indeed written much common sense. > The Yisrael Shamirs of this world, and their > apologists, if any, will never accept it. Neither will > the PLO, Syria, Iran, Iraq, Hezbollah, Force 17, the > Tanzim and so on ad nauseum.

Agreed.

Nor is it likely the Ariel Sharons, the Bibbi Netayahus, or even some members of this list will agree with Dr. Baskin. [...] 20448 114 9_agitprop?13_Yuval Warshai16_warshais@tir.com31_Mon, 23 Apr 2001 14:10:38 -0400626_iso-8859-1 Chevre,

An "innocent" question: is the related below also agitprop? Let anybody know, before wasting time and reading any further, that it comes from the Bat Shalom/Women in Black circle. ___ |Y| ^^^

>Friends, > >The testimony below is from Dr. Veronika Cohen of the Rubin Academy of Music >in Jerusalem and a founding member of Rapprochement (Jerusalem). Veronika >participated in the action a few days ago to dismantle the blockade at Bidya >and Masha. At that action, following the arrest of 16 activists, two >activists were injured: Hava Keller, a 72 year-old woman, was hurt in the >leg by [...] 20563 22 17_change of address20_Freidenreich, Fradle16_fradle@bjeny.org31_Mon, 23 Apr 2001 14:25:13 -0400485_iso-8859-1 Please change my email address from

fradle@bjeny.org to fradlef@aol.com We return to Israel in early May

Fradle and Barry Freidenreich

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 20586 216 45_Re: Baskin's Analysis and other recent topics13_aubrey jasper22_aubreyjasper@yahoo.com37_Mon, 23 Apr 2001 11:34:18 -0700 (PDT)523_us-ascii I agree with Noam. Aubrey --- Noam Stopak wrote: > > aubrey jasper wrote: > > > Gershon Baskin has indeed written much common > sense. > > The Yisrael Shamirs of this world, and their > > apologists, if any, will never accept it. Neither > will > > the PLO, Syria, Iran, Iraq, Hezbollah, Force 17, > the > > Tanzim and so on ad nauseum. > > Agreed. > > Nor is it likely the Ariel Sharons, the Bibbi > Netayahus, > or even some members of this list will agree with > Dr. Baskin. > [...] 20803 46 14_Belief systems12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Mon, 23 Apr 2001 22:22:37 +0200577_us-ascii

Sam, my dear Sam; That was one of the really fine pieces you wrote - maybe the best. Not only because of the honor and other slightly embarrassing things you dumped on my head :) but because of the fine connection you made between the myths we live our lives by and our belief systems. Nevermind which came first. I guess that myths are more enduring because we can prove them empirically. We say, "everyone knows that," and then go on to recount all the miracles. For instance that our recently redeemed slave forefathers* walked thru the Reed Sea while [...] 20850 218 0_15_Leo Diesendruck18_leodie@isdn.net.il31_Tue, 24 Apr 2001 19:12:34 +0200813_windows-1255 This is a report given by Prof. Jeff Mallow, President of the Labor Zionist Alliance. I have his permission to post it on HABONET.





























PRESIDENT'S CORNER LESSONS FROM AIPAC I attended the recent Washington, DC conference of the American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC): the "pro-Israel lobby." The approximately 2200 attendees included members of AIPAC, representatives of Jewish organizations (like myself), 800 students, and what my predecessor and fellow AIPAC attendee Danny Mann calls 'political junkies'. The conference consisted of speeches by dignitaries, smaller sessions and workshops, and visits to the Capitol to lobby our congresspersons on behalf of Israel. [...] 21069 24 19_Re: Mallow's report13_Yuval Warshai16_warshais@tir.com31_Tue, 24 Apr 2001 13:39:40 -0400463_Windows-1252 Not a word about settlement expansion, about little provocative plush settlements that are isolated and indefensible both strategically and demographically, such as Netzarim, the whole Gush Katif area, and even Psagot and Elon Moreh. Not to mention those stuck as thorn in the heart of densely populated Palestinian areas, such as Kiryat Arbah, Avraham Avinu, Beit Hadassah and Tel Rumeida. No, I am definitely not a Labor Zionist!. ___ |Y| ^^^ [...] 21094 66 10_Joe Glazer16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Tue, 24 Apr 2001 17:12:12 -0400667_us-ascii Dear Friends: Over the years many of you may have heard me sing the witty and iconoclastic song "Lady with the Popular Front." Its composer is Joe Glazer, a retired labor organizer who has just published a wonderful memoir, Labor's Troubador (U. of Illinois Press, Champaign Urbana:2001.)

Recently Joe has been travelling around the country, singing at his book signings. Regrettably, his publisher's marketting department hasn't responded to my querries about his singing book signings. However, I was recently referred to the offices of the Labor Heritage Foundation in Washington, DC, whose director gave me Glazer's home telephone number. So [...] 21161 201 102_yet another well thought out discourse on Islam, Pokemon and the Elders of Toys-R-Us (not HIV related)9_Martin S.20_emskol@bellsouth.net31_Tue, 24 Apr 2001 19:26:53 -0400697_iso-8859-1 Arabs See Jewish Conspiracy in Pokemon Religion: Several nations have banned the toys, saying they promote anti-Islamic behavior.

By MICHAEL SLACKMAN, Los Angeles Times Staff Writer



CAIRO--Eight-year-old Abdel Mohsen Medwahi lived for Pokemon. Pokemon trading cards. Pokemon comic books. Pokemon clothing. Pokemon toys. Everything and anything Pokemon. So it stunned his father, Omar, when the boy solemnly reported the troubling news he had just heard from friends: " 'Pokemon' means 'There is no God in the universe.' " As a faithful Muslim in Saudi Arabia, a devoutly Muslim country, Omar Medwahi decided to check up on the seemingly harmless make-believe [...] 21363 57 14_reply to yuval7_Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Tue, 24 Apr 2001 23:54:14 +0300575_Windows-1252 yuval, There was a time when it was possible to go from Chevron to Shchem and not see one soldier or army vehicle. It was possible to go into the heart of the Chevron shuk unarmed, alone - women, children as well. Arabs worked freely in Kiryat Arba, grateful for the parnasa. I remember walking about freely, riding horses through Arab villages, buying flour in the deep dark insides of the Chevron shuk -- and can't believe it once was so peaceful. Most of these villages were isolated outposts when they were set up and Arabs were hardly within eyesight. [...] 21421 131 14_Re: Joe Glazer29_Richard Steacy & Esther Cohen22_richard.steacy@gte.net31_Wed, 25 Apr 2001 07:30:24 -0400372_iso-8859-1 he gave a very informal concert at the Washington Ethical Society last year, and it was a delightful evening - i strongly recommend his show to anyone who can get there. -esther cohen most 70-75+ workshop 77-78 gesher haziv ----- Original Message ----- From: Elihu D. Davison To: Davison, Elihu D. Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2001 5:12 PM Subject: Joe Glazer [...] 21553 43 11_Re: Pokemon13_Jonathan Baum19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il31_Wed, 25 Apr 2001 14:38:52 +0200114_windows-1255 Gee. I always thought "Pokemon" was Japanese for "My parents are morons for buying me all this shit." 21597 86 24_reply to pearl and yuval11_Noam Stopak26_n.stopak@scienceserver.com31_Wed, 25 Apr 2001 08:54:04 -0400581_us-ascii Pearl,

I think you will find that if you read all of Yuval's posts, he has stated that if Jews wish to live in these places they should be free to do so as citizens of the Palestinian state, just as you note that Arabs are free to live in Israel. I believe what he is objecting to is the continued presence of soldiers to protect these enclaves which is what the Arab population of these areas finds objectionable. Israel elected to return these areas to Palestinian control and the continued presence of Israeli soldiers reinforces the impression that Israel [...] 21684 48 12_Re: reply...13_Yuval Warshai16_warshais@tir.com31_Wed, 25 Apr 2001 12:41:47 -0400583_Windows-1252 Is that why in 1989 or 1990, some 12 years ago already, maybe more, someone carrying an Uzi had to discharge almost a whole bullet clip on a tied up, laying down Arab "terrorist" that according to some doubtful accounts was already dead, but whose tied up hands were somehow still moving and capable of doing harm to the "peaceful" settlers surronding him? That's how peaceful it has always been around there? Jews who want to live there will probably be able to do so someday, as a minority, maybe even in relative peace, under sovereignty of the Palestinian Arab [...] 21733 681 12_Re: reply...0_13_Mmxmm@aol.com29_Wed, 25 Apr 2001 16:44:37 EDT547_UTF-8 Hi,

I just received this newsletter/personal diary from a young women and thought it might be of interest to some of you. [see below]

By the way I just spent sweet visit with the much vilified Yisrael Shamir [ I hadn't seen him since 1973 ] who has been on a lecture tour in the US and spoke at UC Berkeley the other eve. I related to him some of the response his writings have elicited on Habonet and suggested that both his use of language and the limited framing of his ideas [one-sidedness] made him appear to many as [...] 22415 34 19_Re: Mallow's report0_16_BERNSARA@aol.com29_Wed, 25 Apr 2001 16:58:01 EDT116_US-ASCII Yuval I would love to negotiate a contract with you. You start at where I thought I might end

Baruch 22450 58 0_11_Jamie Levin22_mazkir@habonimdror.org31_Wed, 25 Apr 2001 17:59:39 -0400638_iso-8859-1

April 25, 2001 Prime Minister Sharon,

I am writing to you from North America as a Chaver Tnua of Habonim Dror, a Progressive Zionist Youth movement. Habonim Dror has played a pivotal role in building the State of Israel through establishing kibbutzim, sending youth on aliyah, and actively participating in initiatives for peace and coexistence. As the conflict in Israel, the West Bank and Gaza continues, and as the prospects for resolution dwindle I feel compelled to write. When you were last in America you voiced your belief that Diaspora Jewry must have their opinions heard concerning the status of [...] 22509 20 28_Re: Your letter to PM Sharon13_Yuval Warshai16_warshais@tir.com31_Wed, 25 Apr 2001 19:25:19 -0700519_- Yaaahoooooooooooooo!

aleh uvneh, aleh vehagshem, alo' naaleh, kadima, chazak veematz, yishar kochachem, kadimah lehista'er al hashalom, chazak veematz, ___ |Y| ^^^Yuval Warshai



------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org A service of Hebrew College, offering online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/ ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 22530 172 30_Re: Your letter to Arik Sharon5_yigal18_ysela@INTER.NET.IL31_Thu, 26 Apr 2001 11:17:44 +0200633_iso-8859-1 Yom Hatsmaut No. 53

Dear Jamie,

Chag Sameach!!

I am writing you the morning of Yom Hatsmaut, before going out with my family to celebrate our indpendence, with the rest of our larger family, the members of Kibbutz Machanayim. Despite the difficult days we are encountering we will celebrate, more subdued than normally, but we will celebrate. We will not prevent our children to go out to the front line, to the entertainment centers in Tel Aviv, Netanya, Haifa Kfar Saba, Or Yehuda, Jerusalem, which have been continually the targets of Palestinian suicidal bombers over the years. I am writing [...] 22703 768 26_your letter to Arik Sharon5_yigal18_ysela@inter.net.il31_Thu, 26 Apr 2001 11:28:28 +0200635_windows-1255 Yom Hatsmaut No. 53

Dear Jamie,

Chag Sameach!!

I am writing you the morning of Yom Hatsmaut, before going out with my family to celebrate our indpendence, with the rest of our larger family, the members of Kibbutz Machanayim. Despite the difficult days we are encountering we will celebrate, more subdued than normally, but we will celebrate. We will not prevent our children to go out to the front line, to the entertainment centers in Tel Aviv, Netanya, Haifa Kfar Saba, Or Yehuda, Jerusalem, which have been continually the targets of Palestinian suicidal bombers over the years. I am writing [...] 23472 219 10_No Subject0_12_SHX2@aol.com29_Thu, 26 Apr 2001 12:17:05 EDT597_US-ASCII This was allegedly posted very briefly on the McDonnell Douglas > Website by an employee there who obviously has a sense of humor. > The company, of course, does not have a sense of humor, & made the web > department take it down immediately (for once, the 'IMPORTANT' note at > the end is worth a read, too). > --------------------------------------------- > > Thank you for purchasing a McDonnell Douglas military aircraft. In > order to protect your new investment, please take a few moments to fill > out the warranty registration card below. Answering the survey > questions is [...] 23692 33 25_McDonnell-Douglas "thing"10_Ori Siegel17_oris@interlog.com31_Thu, 26 Apr 2001 14:28:10 -0400670_us-ascii At 12:17 PM 2001-04-26 -0400, SHX2@aol.com wrote: >This was allegedly posted very briefly on the McDonnell Douglas...etc.



This bit of "hilarity" has been making the rounds for a couple years. I'm told some people find it very funny but I'll just bet that MD did not!

Ori





a.r.s.VA3ORI va3ori@rac.ca Toronto, Ontario, CANADA ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by. -Douglas Adams ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- [...] 23726 149 15_this is amazing12_nancy mimoun19_nmimoun@sunhill.com31_Fri, 27 Apr 2001 03:22:40 -0400480_iso-8859-1 This was sent to me, and I am forwarding it on. Through my tears...

> > 1) Naomi Ragen on Yom ha Zikaro> > > > > The Jewish Blessing > > > By > > > Naomi Ragen > > > > In the book of Genesis, G-d tells Abraham: And through you will all the nations of the earth be blessed. I've often wondered about that blessing we Jews are supposed to bring the world, and how it will come about. If it were up to me, right now, I don't think I'd be very eager to fulfill [...] 23876 224 16_Joey Ramone, z"l16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Fri, 27 Apr 2001 14:38:23 -0400680_iso-8859-1 The following piece appeared in Workingforchange.com. I thought it poignant.





Singin’ in the wind

David Corn - WORKINGFORCHANGE

04.23.01 - Traveling on a crowded train through the wet Dutch country side -- where, sadly, not a cow could be seen due to the threat of foot-and-mouth-disease -- I came face-to-face with Joey Ramone, the legendary punk singer who fronted the trail-blazing Ramones. He was one day dead, but this was not a vision. Instead, I was staring at a large photograph of the leather-clad, fish-lipped, weak-chinned, bushy-haired, musical pioneer that had been published above-the-fold on the front page of de [...] 24101 44 20_Re: Joey Ramone, z"l11_Noam Stopak26_n.stopak@scienceserver.com31_Fri, 27 Apr 2001 15:02:56 -0400383_iso-8859-1 "Elihu D. Davison" wrote:

> Singin’ in the wind > > David Corn - WORKINGFORCHANGE > ... > But there was only slight mention of one of Ramone's best songs: "My Brain Is Hanging Upside Down > (Bonzo Goes To Bitburg)," an anti-Reagan anthem that warrants inclusion on > the best-of list of a subgenre of rock-and-roll protest songs -- the topical-reaction track. [...] 24146 50 23_"Bonzo Goes To Bitburg"0_18_Rachelbern@aol.com29_Fri, 27 Apr 2001 17:17:22 EDT579_US-ASCII Several articles about Joey R. mention this song, which always reminds me of my Saba's last stand:

>From our youngest days, Saba lectured to us about tzedakah and other ways of living that are, simply, the right thing to do, in our times as in the days of the Torah and the later sages he liked to quote (he was a Hebrew & bar mitzva teacher). When I began to connect these kinds of ideas to politics, and occasionally listened to him go on about various politicians, I learned about the difference between "us" and Republicans. During the 1980 presidential [...] 24197 58 3_FYI0_15_DebALev@aol.com29_Fri, 27 Apr 2001 21:40:59 EDT475_US-ASCII Thought some might be interested.

<< SURVIVING TRAUMA: Child Abuse in the Jewish Community

Sunday, April 29, 2001 Noon (eastern time) 11:00 am (Central time) 9:00 am (Pacific time) 7:00 pm (Israel) To enter this chat, click here HREF="aol://2719:3-2164-Torah%20and%20Thought">Torah and Thought click to Board: Adult survivors of child abuse click to Board: Domestic violence 24256 63 11_Joey Ramone14_Albert Kaufman18_ahk@cablespeed.com31_Fri, 27 Apr 2001 21:22:36 -0700348_iso-8859-1 I hardly ever look at Habonet, but today I did. The talk about Joey Ramone, reminds me of my first and last Ramones concert at Princeton University. They were awesome, fun, bouncy and alive. I'd never seen anything like it until that point.

Now back to the 5th Element.

Greetings from Greying and overcrowded Seattle. [...] 24320 103 19_Re: this is amazing15_Nechemia Meyers32_rrmeyers@wisemail.weizmann.ac.il31_Sat, 28 Apr 2001 10:05:28 +0300411_US-ASCII Dear nmimoun, Thanks for passing on the Naomi Ragen piece. I found it most moving. By the way, it is similar to something written after the Six Day War by either Yigal Mossensohn or Moshe Shamir. Its title was "There are No Unknown Soldiers." Nechemia Meyers, Rehovot



>>> nmimoun@sunhill.com 04/27/01 15:52 PM >>> This was sent to me, and I am forwarding it on. Through my tears... [...] 24424 611 23_Re: HABONET digest 186817_yoninamatz lamdan20_yoninamatz@yahoo.com37_Sat, 28 Apr 2001 00:16:33 -0700 (PDT)536_us-ascii Thanks to Nancy Mimoun for passing on Naomi Ragen's article on Memorial Day in Israel. Yonina --- Habonim Dror Alumni Virtual Machaneh wrote: > > HABONET Digest 1868 > > Topics covered in this issue include: > > 1) this is amazing > by "nancy mimoun" > 2) Joey Ramone, z"l > by "Elihu D. Davison" > 3) Re: Joey Ramone, z"l > by Noam Stopak > 4) "Bonzo Goes To Bitburg" > by Rachelbern@aol.com > 5) FYI > by DebALev@aol.com > [...] 25036 41 14_Hoy L'mi Todah12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Sat, 28 Apr 2001 10:32:42 +0200552_iso-8859-1 Whom should we thank and who should we bless? Keep reading. Topics covered in HABONET Digest 1868 were 1) this is amazing by "nancy mimoun" 2) Joey Ramone, z"l by "Elihu D. Davison" 3) Re: Joey Ramone, z"l by Noam Stopak 4) "Bonzo Goes To Bitburg" by Rachelbern 5) FYI by DebALev. What a relief, what a respite todah for Digest 1868 almost free of grief and with no spite. This was an issue from which I learned things I didn't know and in which there was remission from our obsessive pupick gazing and back-biting. So thanks to all of [...] 25078 25 23_Re: HABONET digest 186814_Ethan Schwartz24_schwar1@netvision.net.il31_Sat, 28 Apr 2001 12:20:48 +0200399_iso-8859-1 Thank you Nancy. Yom Ha zikaron L challai Tzahal is day of great emotional meaning to me, a day when we put away our idealogical differences and remember those who fell so that we can continue arguing. I thought it was very sad that no one else remembered on the habonet. Ethan > Topics covered in this issue include: > > 1) this is amazing > by "nancy mimoun" [...] 25104 128 64_Deir Yassin and Hilul Ha-shem,Sha'ar Ha-ggai,and Hallowed Ground12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Sat, 28 Apr 2001 19:16:52 +0200578_iso-8859-1 Marc, you wrote with great high seriousness and I want to respond in a manner that would be commensurate. "Amnon, I addressed the issue of his treatment of Bab al Wad [I was very moved by what you wrote] and the notion that for many it is truly 'hallowed ground.' It further caused me personally to think about the meaning and idea of 'hallowed or sacred ground'. What makes it 'such' for how long do these places remain important...what is the emotional investment that we hold for these places. What purpose do these investments serve. I thought about a place [...] 25233 37 23_Re: HABONET digest 186821_Tsippi (Frances) Rudy21_tsip@worldnet.att.net31_Sat, 28 Apr 2001 12:32:40 -0700604_us-ascii Dear Ethan,

Just because people did not post to Habonet regarding Yom Yazikaron does not mean people did not remember. For some the recollections and grief remain in the realm of private thoughts and feelings.

Bevracha,

Tsippi

At 03:20 AM 4/28/01, you wrote: >Thank you Nancy. Yom Ha zikaron L challai Tzahal is day of great emotional >meaning to me, a day when we put away our idealogical differences and >remember those who fell so that we can continue arguing. I thought it was >very sad that no one else remembered on the habonet. > Ethan > > Topics covered [...] 25271 29 11_Bonzo/Busho13_aubrey jasper22_aubreyjasper@yahoo.com37_Mon, 30 Apr 2001 07:00:59 -0700 (PDT)366_us-ascii Despite increased awareness of the reality of the Reagan administration , GW Bush apparently did win the election. GW Bush was less impressive than Reagan, more obvious, and couldn't speak a sentence without pausing three or four times. He won anyway. The danger of democracy: the 'wrong' arrogant, smug, pampered insider son of an insider often wins. [...] 25301 38 15_Re: Bonzo/Busho0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com29_Mon, 30 Apr 2001 16:12:58 EDT416_US-ASCII I cannot believe I'm going to be in the position of defending Bush but what are you talking about? In what way is the Bush administration showing any sign of "trashing Israel?" The Bush administration seems unwilling to put themselves on the line by pushing a peace process in which the combatants seem unwilling to participate. Otherwise I don't see where you are coming from or what you are talking about. 25340 31 22_Yom Hazikaron question0_18_Rachelbern@aol.com29_Mon, 30 Apr 2001 16:22:38 EDT640_US-ASCII A friend who has been designated the "knowledgeable office Jew" recently asked me about the creation of and connections between Yom Hazikaron (as commemorated in Israel), Days of Remembrance (as commemorated by, say, US Holocaust Memorial Museum programs), and T'Sha B'av (as commemorated anywhere around the world).

I used to have to answer such questions regularly when I worked at USHMM, which is surely why I've gone completely blank and don't feel like looking it up -- can somebody give me a quick, simple** run down on when and under what/whose aegis these commemorative events and associated activities came to [...] 25372 65 47_Powell Doctrine&VietNam&Iraq&Israel&Bonzo/Busho13_aubrey jasper22_aubreyjasper@yahoo.com37_Mon, 30 Apr 2001 13:43:39 -0700 (PDT)637_us-ascii I have been asked the justification for my criticism of the Bush administration's treatment of Israel's self-defense policy (which I feel is imperfect, by the way). To understand my criticism, it is necessary to understand recent American history. The Viet Nam war was marked by gradual American escalation of military presence and by political control of military decisions, including how much force to use in specific campaigns, and even against specific targets. We all know that this policy failed miserably. As a result,a new policy was formulated by Gen. Colin Powell when he became Chief of Staff under Pres. George [...] 25438 52 51_Re: Powell Doctrine&VietNam&Iraq&Israel&Bonzo/Busho0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com29_Mon, 30 Apr 2001 21:03:58 EDT489_US-ASCII Your reasoning is flawed. (Your abridged history of Vietnam is also flawed, but not entirely relevant.) You assume that the American administration's criticism of Israel for moving tanks into Palestinian territory would not have occurred under other administrations. I think this is false. American administrations have often criticized Israel and if Clinton were still president or if Gore had won I am quite sure their administrations would have criticized Israel as well. [...]