1 SHAMASH.ORG /usr/www/wwwhc/listserv/archives/habonet October 2000 2 31 21_Saving Israel's Trees17_Martin J. Goodman19_mgoodman@012.net.il31_Sat, 30 Sep 2000 10:44:24 +0200565_windows-1255 Shanah Tovah:

The list of signers to the email in HaBonet Digest 1670 regarding protection of trees includes ""Amiel (from Prague, as representative of Green Course, who has also stood in front of the trees to try to prevent the Trans-Israel Highway from going forward)"".

Where are these trees? As an earthwork consultant on the Cross-Israel Highway project, I have visited much of the roadway alignment from south of Ben Shemen to north of Kalkilya. For the most part, the alignment that I have seen passes through open farm land. [...] 34 103 23_Re: HABONET digest 167117_yoninamatz lamdan20_yoninamatz@yahoo.com36_Sun, 1 Oct 2000 12:28:07 -0700 (PDT)429_us-ascii

--- Habonim Dror Alumni Virtual Machaneh wrote: > > HABONET Digest 1671 > > Topics covered in this issue include: > > 1) Israelis and Palestinians as Neighbors > by "Martin J. Goodman" > 2) Re: Israelis and Palestinians as Neighbors > by "Ethan" > 3) Re: Israelis and Palestinians as Neighbors > by "Ethan" > [...] 138 22 23_Re: Progressive DC shul0_15_Marshlf@aol.com28_Sun, 1 Oct 2000 21:16:00 EDT457_US-ASCII Judy (and other Chevre)-- Please don't forget to mention Mishkan Torah in Greenbelt in your rundown of local DC reconstructionist/progressive shuls. We are 50+ year-old congregation, and have many old habonimniks as members. The shulk was built by hand by its own members, and in many ways embodies/complements the Judasim I learned at Mosh. Hope everyone had a sweet Rosh Hashanah. ( I spent mine picking apples in Woodstock, New York). Lisa [...] 161 48 14_Chesbon Nefesh17_Martin J. Goodman19_mgoodman@012.net.il30_Mon, 2 Oct 2000 12:38:20 +0200535_Windows-1252 2 October 2000

Regarding my comments about the place of Judaism in Habonim, Michael Livni writes in HaBonet Digest 1666, "" the issue is Jewish COMMITMENT... Assuming we are talking about Jewish-ZIONIST commitment to "the continuing evolution of (Jewish) Zionist values", Martin Goodman and others would be well advised to state them and their opposite."" Michael goes on to state that examples of commitment include slichut, implementing principles of equality, Torah, Avodah, Gemilut Chassidim, Israel, etc. [...] 210 30 23_Another lost oportunity0_16_BERNSARA@aol.com28_Mon, 2 Oct 2000 11:22:16 EDT425_US-ASCII I guess that in keeping with the Torah reading on Rosh Hahsona Sharon went up to sacrafice the State of Israel. However unlike the old story no angel called a halt.

How different things could have been had an angel appeared to the Waaf and they had welcomed Sharon and his army and given them a Royal Tour. The whole world would have known that they knew how to care for this place so sacred to so many. [...] 241 67 15_Bye Bye Cheney?0_15_NEVETS2@aol.com28_Mon, 2 Oct 2000 11:40:01 EDT449_US-ASCII Chevre, Shana Tova

It's hard to get my head and my heart off the disastrous news from Israel, but...

My sources tell me these folks are responsible. But it is hard to imagine this rumor being out and the major media not scooping it up. The only way that would be true is if it was difficult to have the rumor corroborated. In which case, spreading the rumor via the Internet may be a good way to squelch the actual deed. [...] 309 32 17_Bad, Bad New year5_Ethan24_schwar1@netvision.net.il30_Mon, 2 Oct 2000 20:06:39 +0200590_iso-8859-1 We as the strong party in this conflict carry absolute responsibility for what is happening now. The murder of Israeli citizens, by Israeli police who were ordered to go into areas that they could not control, is typical of racism found on both sides of the conflict here. The TV news reported that the police withdrew when they ran out of ammunition, they were not in a life threating position. They had to show who's penis was bigger. The situation at Netzatim is a little different, A few crazies forced themselves into the middle of an extremely hostile environment, on [...] 342 16 27_Re: Another lost oportunity0_15_Emabear@aol.com28_Mon, 2 Oct 2000 13:48:30 EDT310_US-ASCII Thank you for expressing so meaningful what is iin the hearts of so many of us. Ellen

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 359 86 13_peace and war13_Yuval Warshai16_warshais@tir.com30_Mon, 2 Oct 2000 13:54:01 -0400580_Windows-1252 Most of us have been hunkered down, praying for peace to our own gods, for more than two months. But peace stumbled at that hill in Jerusalem, held sacred by two of the major world's monotheistic religions. And now, instead of peace, there is war.

When there is war there is always the question of who is to blame. And that is a question that is seldom resolved, even in hindsight. The question of Germany's blame for the beginning of the so-called First World War is still hotly disputed, even though there is no doubt that the assassination of Archduke [...] 446 29 25_Re: Saving Israel's Trees7_Greener25_ddwgreen@netvision.net.il31_Mon, 02 Oct 2000 22:33:41 +0200590_us-ascii Marty Goodman wanted to know where the trees are that Green Course is defending in Israel these days:

Well, I wasn't there myself, and Ami is still in Prague with the exact facts, but I know that we were bombarded with emails from the protest Teepee near kibbutz Nachshonim - near Petach Tikva. The protesters climbed the trees on the Trans-Israel Highway route and sat down in front of the bulldozers, causing a delay of several good days and a few arrests. I remember one hysterical email that the two remaining trees, with the two remaining protesters in them, were [...] 476 77 20_A Guide to Taschlich29_Richard Steacy & Esther Cohen22_richard.steacy@gte.net30_Mon, 2 Oct 2000 20:25:37 -0400309_iso-8859-1 i hope you don't mind me sending something ridiculous like this on the habonet, but i thought it was worth an airing. i received this from a friend who's a member of the washington ethical society. (and, interestingly enough, the son-in-law of joe glazer, whom i saw in concert the other day) [...] 554 19 41_Babysitting costs in Israel--Anyone know?0_15_Jerzsee@aol.com28_Mon, 2 Oct 2000 22:00:14 EDT517_US-ASCII Hope you all don't mind me using this loop for a personal query. For the Israelis out there, can anyone tell me approximately what hourly babysitting costs in Israel are and how much a teenager would typically make? Thanks. Please email me directly. Joyce Rudin (Naaleh 70-76) jerzsee@aol.com

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 574 41 21_Re: Bad, Bad New year0_24_skolnik@netvision.net.il30_Tue, 3 Oct 2000 06:57:35 +0200578_US-ASCII Ethan: "large numbers" of soldiers?? Exactly how many? Even one is too many, but I do think you have to be careful in writing exact figures to make your point.

On 2 Oct 2000, at 20:06, Ethan wrote:

We as the strong party in this conflict carry absolute responsibility for what is happening now. The murder of Israeli citizens, by Israeli police who were ordered to go into areas that they could not control, is typical of racism found on both sides of the conflict here. The TV news reported that the police withdrew when they ran out of ammunition, [...] 616 126 11_Monthly FAQ12_Jennifer Kay19_kay@elvis.rowan.edu31_Tue, 03 Oct 2000 02:32:02 -0400421_- Actually-from:BCooper@descartes.com

Hi Chevre,

Here is a reminder of the "essential" commands that you can use to configure your subscription to Habonet. I will post this monthly from now on. Please note -- The address for commands is: listproc@shamash.org whereas the address for posts to the list is: habonet@shamash.org If you need any help with any of it, send me an email: BCooper@descartes.com [...] 743 419 14_Heshbon Nefesh12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il30_Tue, 3 Oct 2000 17:07:32 +0200669_iso-8859-8-i

Haverot/im The clock ticks, it's countdown time on the fast track between Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur. May the God who blesses people's hands, and Bialik who strengthens the hands of brothers (remember Techezakna?) bless Marty Goodman's. He wrote: Regarding my comments about the place of Judaism in Habonim, Michael Livni writes in HaBonet Digest 1666, "" the issue is Jewish COMMITMENT... Assuming we are talking about Jewish-ZIONIST commitment to "the continuing evolution of (Jewish) Zionist values", Martin Goodman and others would be well advised to state them and their opposite."" Michael goes on to state that examples of commitment [...] 1163 148 15_Cheshbon Nefesh12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Tue, 03 Oct 2000 17:13:36 +0200665_us-ascii

Haverot/im The clock ticks, it's countdown time on the fast track between Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur. May the God who blesses people's hands, and Bialik who strengthens the hands of brothers (remember Techezakna?) bless Marty Goodman's. He wrote: Regarding my comments about the place of Judaism in Habonim, Michael Livni writes in HaBonet Digest 1666, "" the issue is Jewish COMMITMENT... Assuming we are talking about Jewish-ZIONIST commitment to "the continuing evolution of (Jewish) Zionist values", Martin Goodman and others would be well advised to state them and their opposite."" Michael goes on to state that examples of commitment [...] 1312 33 21_Re: Bad, Bad New year5_Ethan24_schwar1@netvision.net.il30_Tue, 3 Oct 2000 20:26:21 +0200636_iso-8859-1 Pearl If you go to www.google.com and type in, (netzarim soldier kill), you will get a long list of articles about soldiers killed at Netzarim. An accurate number I can't give. My ex company commander was made into a cripple by a bomb at Netzarim and the tracker with him was blinded after a young volunteer had her legs blown off . The settlers there, I must say, give the soldiers much more respect then the settlers of other settlement in the Gaza area.----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Ethan" ; Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2000 6:57 AM [...] 1346 26 21_Re: Bad, Bad New year13_Yuval Warshai16_warshais@tir.com30_Tue, 3 Oct 2000 14:01:34 -0400568_iso-8859-1 > The settlers there, I must say, give the soldiers much more > respect then the settlers of other settlement in the > Gaza area.

You bet they do. They are totally dependent on the existence of the army base there. The moment the army would close the base there, this religious settlement bearing a name with clear Christian messianic connotations would be gone like smoke from under the skies of the holy land. I wish Barak would order the closing down of the base and the retreat of the forces from there tomorrow morning. Even then it may be [...] 1373 68 13_Satmar Avodah12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Wed, 04 Oct 2000 13:03:40 +0200646_us-ascii Haverim/ot A follow-up on my yesterday's posting on avodah and Habonim - I apologize for having sent it out twice by mistake. There's an article in today's Ha'aretz on the fundamentalist Satmar sect's allegations that Israel cuts off the children's sidelocks, abducts the wives and daughters of Yemenite families and induces them to commit incest. I thought of "avodah ba-einayim" a modern variant of avodah: it is translated as fraud, charlatanism or deception. These kinds of allegations usually circulate during the Rosh Hashanah - Yom Kippur period timed to coincide with the annual kick-off of fundraising efforts. The name of [...] 1442 46 21_Re: bad, bad new year11_Judy Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Wed, 04 Oct 2000 08:31:51 -0400587_us-ascii Dear Pearl-

Why does it matter "exactly how many"? Netzatim creates a situation of confrontation that does not need to be. Even one soldier dying to defend it is far too many.

When I talk to my cousin whose 18 year old son is now defending Israeli Jewish civilian settlements in the midst of what will soon be Palestine (whether Israel agrees or not), I am overwhelmed by the sacrifice that mothers and fathers in Israel are forced to make to defend the settlements, some of which are in places that are very difficult to defend. Netzatim is apparently among [...] 1489 39 21_Re: Bad, Bad New year0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com28_Wed, 4 Oct 2000 15:07:59 EDT561_US-ASCII The spilling over of the violence beyond the Green line and the fighting between Israeli Arabs and Israeli Jews is just a tragedy. Like Joni Mitchel said you don't know what you have until its lost. I feel so sad. << On 2 Oct 2000, at 20:06, Ethan wrote:

We as the strong party in this conflict carry absolute responsibility for what is happening now. The murder of Israeli citizens, by Israeli police who were ordered to go into areas that they could not control, is typical of racism found on both sides of the conflict here. The TV news [...] 1529 21 33_Old Chinuch Programs and outlines0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com28_Wed, 4 Oct 2000 15:21:03 EDT510_US-ASCII Dear Chevre- Does anyone out there have any old chinuch programs on "Judaism (history- eyc.)," "Jewish Values," or "Social Justice?"....I remember some of the old ones were terrific- but in my many years of wandering mine have all gotten lost, and I would like to see if I could use any for the teen generation out here in LA LA Land.... ( I remember some had great resources for literature, etc)..If anyone has any of these "old" ones ( from the 60's)- you can e-mail me separately--Thanks- Sue [...] 1551 128 53_(Fwd) FW: Shabbaton for Bogrei Habonim: kibbutz Lotan0_24_skolnik@netvision.net.il30_Wed, 4 Oct 2000 23:21:59 +0200490_US-ASCII

------- Forwarded message follows ------- Date sent: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 22:21:42 -0700 Subject: FW: Shabbaton for Bogrei Habonim: kibbutz Lotan From: "Michael Livni" To: skolnik@netvision.net.il





---------- From: skolnik@netvision.net.il To: ml-lotan@zahav.net.il Subject: Shabbaton for Bogrei Habonim: kibbutz Lotan Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 19:58:44 +0200



BOGREI HABONIM SOF SHAVUA B'KIBBUTZ LOTAN: Nov.16-18. [...] 1680 1099 58_Fwd: Fw: FW: Ifyou still believe what you read in the pape0_13_SC523@aol.com28_Wed, 4 Oct 2000 18:06:20 EDT582_US-ASCII

Dear Habochevreh,

I am sending this because I found it so terribly distressing. Please forgive all the mishmash you will have to wade through to get to the attachment, which has the important information. For those of you who cannot read attached files, suffice it to say that this is an extreme example of misreportage in a prime American newspaper like the New York Times, Even for those of us on the left, it is extremely upsetting to see a newspaper always make the Israelis out to be the brutality mongrels, and, in this case, you will see that it [...] 2780 88 20_Not as an Attachment0_13_SC523@aol.com28_Wed, 4 Oct 2000 18:11:07 EDT537_US-ASCII Here it is without the photo, not as an attachment (from Aliya again):



Open the picture and read the caption. Then read the two letters to the > Editor of the NY Times, below. > > >No matter where you stand in the political argument, I urge you all to > forward this to as many people as possible, and to express your feelings > to > both the newspaper and the news agency. Inaccurate reporting, to the point > of deceit, fans the flames of violence more than anything else. > > > > Subject: To the Editor > [...] 2869 76 34_And a little child shall lead them12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Fri, 06 Oct 2000 00:10:32 +0200618_us-ascii Haverim/ot "They were swifter than eagles; they were stronger that lions" [ II Kings, 1] and "A voice called so I went, I went because the voice called" [Hannah Shenesh ] were the two proverbs suspended in large letters above the memorial wall. It was the annual memorial tekes for the tzanhanim today. What a potpourri of stimuli, realities, feelings and if not quite resolution, then at least some catharsis I experienced this afternoon. We got there early before most of the 1,416 bereaved families arrived so we could approach the impassive, noncommittal monument pretty much alone. There are people [...] 2946 31 19_Forgive me if I ask12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Fri, 06 Oct 2000 18:18:01 +0200574_us-ascii



Haverot/im It is erev erev Yom Kippur and if I'm going to have to apologize to Pearl or to Michael I better post this message soon. I was a little bemused by the invitation on habonet to the Shabbaton for Bogrei Habonim. Who appointed the organizers? " The organizers would like chaverim to volunteer for certain tasks, in order to help guarantee our first shabbaton, which we hope will be the first of many in the future." I am reminded of a Leonard Cohen song/poem that went something like this: and if you call me brother now, forgive me if [...] 2978 21 23_Re: Forgive me if I ask5_Ethan24_schwar1@netvision.net.il30_Fri, 6 Oct 2000 19:46:17 +0200549_iso-8859-1 I have to agree with Amnon on the way that the subject was broached, BUT, I think the Yozma in this case is well directed and I would love for such a program to take off. My fantasy is, that beside meeting with people with a common childhood that I have come to love and respect through the Habonet, we could be a source of positive political activism. The site of the Shabbaton is my neighborhood I feel is excellent. I feel politically castrated down here in Eilat. I'm pretty certain my agenda is different then that of Pearl and [...] 3000 15 24_Re: A Guide to Taschlich0_17_JackNusan@aol.com28_Fri, 6 Oct 2000 23:54:42 EDT358_US-ASCII The Guide to Taschlich, the different breads, was I believe written by the late Rabbi Richard Israel of Newton, Mass. Shanah Tovah--Jackie Porter

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 3016 25 7_HABONIM15_MENDY MENDELSON24_frenchhorn90@hotmail.com29_Sat, 07 Oct 2000 06:48:06 GMT425_-

Can anyone tell me if there is any Habonim in the Phoenix-Scottsdale area of Arizona? Also what is the closest summer camp of Habonim to the area From whom can I get info about said camp? Thanks. MENDY MENDELSON KIBUTZ MAAYAN BARUCH D.N.GALIL ELYON 12220 ISRAEL _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. [...] 3042 24 13_the Shabbaton17_Martin J. Goodman19_mgoodman@012.net.il30_Sat, 7 Oct 2000 09:00:48 +0200468_Windows-1252 Shalom Amnon,

Regarding the initiative of the organizers of the Shabbaton, I say Kol HaKavod.

I am also reminded of the saying from Pirkey Avot, "Bimkom she'ayn ish, hishtadel lihiyot ish"".

Have an easy fast,

Marty Goodman

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 3067 508 23_violence and attonement16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Sat, 07 Oct 2000 13:47:01 -0400452_iso-8859-1 Arthur Waskow posted the following article by Michael Lerner on jrj-net, a listserve of so-called Jewish political progressives. Apparently this article will shortly appear in Lerner's magazine, Tikkun. I append my own response to the Lerner piece, sent to jrj-net, which I wrote as a personal letter to Jeff Marker, an old friend who is the sysop and moderator of the jrj-net. Dare we have the courage to say happy 5761? ELIHU DAVISON [...] 3576 108 23_Re: Forgive me if I ask13_Michael Livni21_ml-lotan@zahav.net.il31_Sat, 07 Oct 2000 23:56:36 -07001050_utf-8 Shalom‭ ‬Amnon‭ ‬and‭ ‬Habonet You‭ ‬posted‭ ‬your‭ ‬message‮ ‬ regarding the Sofshavua for Bogrei Habonim, Nov 16 - 19 at Kibbutz Lotan‭ ‬on‭ ‬Habonet‭ ‬so‭ ‬I‭ ‬guess‭ ‬I‭ ‬have‭ ‬to‭ ‬relate‭ ‬on‭ ‬Habonet‭.‬ ‭"‬Who‭ ‬appointed‭ ‬the‭ ‬organizers‭" " ‬Who‭ ‬gave‭ ‬us‭ ‬the‭ ‬mandate‭" "‬Democracy‭,‬ Transparency‭". ‬Amnon‭, ‬do‭ ‬you‭ ‬really‭ ‬think‭ ‬that‭ ‬Bogrei‭ ‬Habonim‭ ‬are‭ ‬a fitting‭ ‬object‭ ‬for‭ ‬some‭ ‬kind‭ ‬of‭ ‬devious‭ ‬plot‭?‬ The‭ ‬truth‭ ‬is‭ ‬simple‭. ‬Pearl‭ ‬and‭ ‬I‭ ‬thought‭ ‬it‭ ‬might‭ ‬be‭ ‬a‭ ‬good‭ ‬idea‭ ‬so‭ ‬we‭ ‬took the‭ ‬initiative‭. ‬Whom‭ ‬are‭ ‬we‭ ‬supposed‭ ‬to‭ ‬ask‭ ‬anyway‭??? ‬We‭ ‬did‭ ‬not‭ ‬think that‭ ‬there‭ ‬was‭ ‬any‭ ‬point‭ ‬in‭ ‬suggesting‭ [...] 3685 36 9_shabbaton0_24_skolnik@netvision.net.il30_Sun, 8 Oct 2000 01:35:52 +0200572_US-ASCII It is very disstressing for me to see that even a shabbaton is politized. I DO not have any agenda, I am just one of the people helping with the organization of this shabbaton, which I hope will be just that: a quiet, reunion of friends for a Habonim shabbat. People were asked to volunteer to lead sichot, precisely because this is a Habonim affair, with no political agenda decided by the organizers. I have no interest in leading discussions in any way or form. It's all yours..... Meanwhile, I hope that you are all contacting kibbutz Lotan to register. [...] 3722 21 18_slicha and m'chila0_24_skolnik@netvision.net.il30_Sun, 8 Oct 2000 01:35:52 +0200348_US-ASCII To my Habonim chaverim, Erev Yom Kippur I ask for forgiveness from anyone whom I may have inadvertently offended or hurt this past year. Please know that I write from my heart and never intended to cause any ill feeling to anyone. Shana Tova, G'mar Chatima Tova. Tzom Kal. May this be a year of Peace for all of Israel. pearl skolnik [...] 3744 48 17_Re: the Shabbaton0_24_skolnik@netvision.net.il30_Sun, 8 Oct 2000 01:35:53 +0200541_US-ASCII marty, you caused me great hitragshut with your letter. I can not thank you enough for your moral support. I really look forward to meeting you. Do you know anyone not on Habonet whom I can write directly to invite? Believe me, if it were up to me I wouldn't even have the sichot that are planned! I want a peaceful friendly shabbat and I am afraid of controversial subjects that could cause ill feelings to come out. Someone else organized the program and I am the conduit to Habonet. I hope that this does not turn out to be [...] 3793 159 59_(Fwd) Fwd: MUST MUST READ! Washington Post: Arafat's War by0_24_skolnik@netvision.net.il30_Sun, 8 Oct 2000 01:35:53 +0200644_ISO-8859-1 I thought this might be of interest to chaverim to read. It is very painful and accurate description of what has happened. G'mar chatima tova, pearl ------- Forwarded message follows ------- Date sent: Sat, 07 Oct 2000 19:50:15 +0200 To: jazzy5@mindspring.com, EPearlson@aol.com, mfix@netvision.net.il, tovaherzl@cs.com From: Joe van Zwaren Subject: Fwd: MUST MUST READ! Washington Post: Arafat's War by Charles Krauthammer Copies to: skolnik@netvision.net.il, skoo@actcom.co.il, gedmel@yahoo.com, mmoshe@inter.net.il, katz@cs.technion.ac.il, nadavk@pob.huji.ac.il, jhorwitt@taconic.net, jnhorwitt@amherst.edu [...] 3953 67 55_(Fwd) Fwd: GET READY! 400 year old prophecy coming true0_24_skolnik@netvision.net.il30_Sun, 8 Oct 2000 09:45:29 +0200716_US-ASCII can't resist, Habonet. But, tell me, why should I be afraid, literally, to send such a post to you? Why can't we read something sent by a fellow chaver(a) without immediately branding said chaver(a) with undesirable political or religious ideas. Because I found this very interesting, does that necessarily mean I believe it, and if I do believe it, that I should be the object of attack? pearl ------- Forwarded message follows ------- From: HavaNehama@aol.com Date sent: Sun, 8 Oct 2000 01:51:47 EDT Subject: Fwd: GET READY! 400 year old prophecy coming true To: aspen54@earthlink.net, mmk@aleph-institute.org, Levanefesh@aol.com, Yaakmb120@aol.com, bollag@avoda.jct.ac.il, chamish@netvision.net.il, [...] 4021 36 48_Re: GET READY! 400 year old prophecy coming true0_18_Rachelbern@aol.com28_Sun, 8 Oct 2000 13:35:22 EDT388_US-ASCII I read the email you presumably meant to send off-list, only to Marty Goodman, with the following line:

<>

Found this confusing, as I couldn't remember any particularly spicy Habonet mail lately, so I went back to the last thing I could find from Amnon, where he didn't like the tone and wording of an invitation that I gather you wrote-- that's the "attack"? [...] 4058 37 59_Re: (Fwd) Fwd: GET READY! 400 year old prophecy coming true11_Noam Stopak26_n.stopak@scienceserver.com31_Sun, 08 Oct 2000 14:50:13 -0400478_us-ascii



skolnik@netvision.net.il wrote:

> can't resist, Habonet. But, tell me, why should I be afraid, literally, > to send such a post to you? Why can't we read something sent by > a fellow chaver(a) without immediately branding said chaver(a) with > undesirable political or religious ideas. Because I found this very > interesting, does that necessarily mean I believe it, and if I do > believe it, that I should be the object of attack? > pearl [...] 4096 81 28_Fwd: JOSEPH'S TOMB DESTROYED0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com28_Sun, 8 Oct 2000 16:09:06 EDT53_US-ASCII Chevre- FYI.....(g'mar chatima tova)...susie 4178 226 32_Re: Fwd: JOSEPH'S TOMB DESTROYED11_Noam Stopak26_n.stopak@scienceserver.com31_Sun, 08 Oct 2000 19:34:27 -04001481_iso-8859-1 LiberHawke@aol.com wrote:

> Chevre- FYI.....(g'mar chatima tova)...susie

> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Subject: JOSEPH'S TOMB DESTROYED > Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2000 13:42:48 EDT > From: IsraelHr@aol.com > > FYI, Israel News Online is passing along this excerpt from Friday's Arutz 7 > Israel National News describing the destruction of Joseph's Tomb at the hands > of Palestinian Arabs. It is highly doubtful that you will see this story > getting the coverage it deserves, if it gets any, in any international media, > so please pass it along. For example, the only related news article on a > major online site [...] 4405 113 39_Fwd: Ugly Anti-Semitic LA Times Cartoon0_15_NEVETS2@aol.com28_Sun, 8 Oct 2000 19:54:22 EDT394_US-ASCII

This is the website of the "cartoon" in question. Take a deep breath before you click on the site.

<< http://www.latimes.com/news/comment/ramirez/ramirez_20001003A.htm >>

LA Chevre, Shalom

Veys mere. What is being done in LA about this attack on Israel and the Jewish people? I thought major American newspapers were way beyond this. I'm struck dumb. [...] 4519 35 38_Re: Ugly Anti-Semitic LA Times Cartoon0_15_DebALev@aol.com28_Sun, 8 Oct 2000 20:31:39 EDT403_US-ASCII In a message dated 10/8/00 5:09:13 PM Pacific Daylight Time, NEVETS2@aol.com writes:

> Veys mere. What is being done in LA about this attack on Israel and the > Jewish people? I thought major American newspapers were way beyond this. > I'm struck dumb. > > Chaver Steve > > If you haven't seen this Michael Ramirez LA Times cartoon, you'd best be > prepared to be sick when you do. [...] 4555 37 43_Re: Fwd: Ugly Anti-Semitic LA Times Cartoon14_Paul Fingerman29_paul.fingerman@mindspring.com31_Sun, 08 Oct 2000 21:15:22 -0700643_us-ascii The web page in question has a link to "submit feedback." I did so, and suggest that "feedback" to Mr. Ramirez and the LA Times regarding his ignorance and their insensitivity is called for.

Paul Fingerman

At 07:54 PM 10/8/00 -0400, you wrote:

>This is the website of the "cartoon" in question. Take a deep breath before >you click on the site. > ><< http://www.latimes.com/news/comment/ramirez/ramirez_20001003A.htm >> > >LA Chevre, Shalom > >Veys mere. What is being done in LA about this attack on Israel and the >Jewish people? I thought major American newspapers were way beyond this. >I'm struck dumb. [...] 4593 243 93_=?utf-8?B?4oCuP+KArOKArT8g4oCsTGVnaWJpbGl0eeKArSDigKxHbGl0Yw==?= hâ­-â¬Replyâ­ â¬toâ­ â¬Amnon13_Michael Livni21_ml-lotan@zahav.net.il31_Mon, 09 Oct 2000 21:48:49 -0700311_utf-8 Shalom Habonet It has come to my attention that for some there may have been a legibility glitch in my reply to Amnon with regard to his questions regarding the Bogrei Habonim Sofshavua in Lotan - Nov 16 - 19. I attach the reply as a document. Part of the problem seems to be that I work on a Macintosh in 4837 16 38_Re: Ugly Anti-Semitic LA Times Cartoon0_15_Marshlf@aol.com28_Mon, 9 Oct 2000 16:56:13 EDT362_US-ASCII I have tried to view this web site, and cannot. Is it because the cartoon has been removed from the site as the error message says, or my error? lisa

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 4854 42 38_Re: Ugly Anti-Semitic LA Times Cartoon17_Rabbi Robert Levy20_reblevy@mediaone.net30_Mon, 9 Oct 2000 21:28:28 -0400636_iso-8859-1 This cartoon was not a-s unless a-s also so includes Muslims. The cartoon is of the plague on both your houses variety.

Bob Levy ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, October 08, 2000 7:54 PM Subject: Fwd: Ugly Anti-Semitic LA Times Cartoon



> > This is the website of the "cartoon" in question. Take a deep breath before > you click on the site. > > << http://www.latimes.com/news/comment/ramirez/ramirez_20001003A.htm >> > > LA Chevre, Shalom > > Veys mere. What is being done in LA about this attack on Israel and the > Jewish people? I thought [...] 4897 16 26_reply to Rabbi Robert Levy0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com28_Mon, 9 Oct 2000 23:15:18 EDT405_US-ASCII I am not one to see anti-Semitism behind every corner or in every criticism of Israel but I have to disagree with your interpretation of the cartoon. Are Muslims even mentioned or shown in it?

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 4914 35 11_Re: HABONIM11_Batel Libes25_batel_libes@earthlink.net31_Mon, 09 Oct 2000 20:28:39 -0700643_us-ascii Hi, I don't know about a Ken, but the closest machane is Gilboa, located in Southern California, and I would love to share information about it with anyone who is interested.

Batel

MENDY MENDELSON wrote:

> Can anyone tell me if there is any Habonim in the Phoenix-Scottsdale > area of Arizona? Also what is the closest summer camp of Habonim to > the area From whom can I get info about said camp? Thanks. > MENDY MENDELSON > KIBUTZ MAAYAN BARUCH > D.N.GALIL ELYON 12220 > ISRAEL > _________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at [...] 4950 35 30_Re: reply to Rabbi Robert Levy14_Orit Chicherio16_oritil@yahoo.com36_Mon, 9 Oct 2000 20:35:51 -0700 (PDT)564_us-ascii I do agree with the equal handedness of the cartoon. The person knealing is wearing a kafia.

--- Richardrdsmith@aol.com wrote: > I am not one to see anti-Semitism behind every > corner or in every criticism > of Israel but I have to disagree with your > interpretation of the cartoon. > Are Muslims even mentioned or shown in it? > > ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org > -----------------------+ > Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network > http://shamash.org > ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org > -----------------------= > [...] 4986 22 38_Re: Ugly Anti-Semitic LA Times Cartoon5_Ethan24_schwar1@netvision.net.il31_Tue, 10 Oct 2000 06:52:09 +0200460_iso-8859-1 A short look makes it clear that Bob is correct, our reaction is based : 1)Moslems do not pray at the kotel. 2)Jews prostrate themselves on Yom Kippur. But Moslems always prostrate themselves in prayer and that, I hope, is what was being shown in the cartoon. If so it is true,. the mutual hatred, the emphasis on hatred in the learnings of both peoples. Someone whose art is based on quick impressions should not have made such a major error. [...] 5009 20 38_Re: Ugly Anti-Semitic LA Times Cartoon0_14_LHIAM1@aol.com29_Tue, 10 Oct 2000 00:59:28 EDT420_US-ASCII Art is most often judged by the eye of the beholder. If someone missed the message -- that does not mean that the message was not there -- only that our own fears got in the way of our seeing it. We need to look harder, see more clearly, take our share of responsibilty and allow others the freedom we so carefully protect. The cartoon is even handed, honest and quite accurate. In my humble opinion. Hiam [...] 5030 36 0_12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Tue, 10 Oct 2000 08:10:25 +0200793_iso-8859-1 Michael, Your new message has come through legibly but the attachment is still not readable.

Amnon

Message-Id: <200010091851.ABQ29312@balder.inter.net.il> Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2000 21:48:49 -0700 Subject: =?utf-8?B?4oCuP+KArOKArT8g4oCsTGVnaWJpbGl0eeKArSDigKxHbGl0Yw==?= hâ­-â¬Replyâ­ â¬toâ­ â¬Amnon From: "Michael Livni" To: habonet@shamash.org Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/mixed; boundary="MS_Mac_OE_3053972929_41008_MIME_Part"

Shalom Habonet It has come to my attention that for some there may have been a legibility glitch in my reply to Amnon with regard to his questions regarding the Bogrei Habonim Sofshavua in Lotan - Nov 16 - 19. I attach the reply as a document. Part of the problem seems to be that I work on a [...] 5067 28 7_HABONIM15_MENDY MENDELSON24_frenchhorn90@hotmail.com29_Tue, 10 Oct 2000 09:37:15 GMT409_-

Batel can you send me info about Gilboa? Where it is ,dates of seasons, age groups, costs, etc. How come no one has ever tried to organize a Habonim Ken in a growing community like Phoenix? MENDY





HAVE A GOOD DAY !!!

_________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. [...] 5096 32 30_Re: reply to Rabbi Robert Levy17_Rabbi Robert Levy20_reblevy@mediaone.net31_Tue, 10 Oct 2000 06:37:09 -0400288_iso-8859-1 I assumed that the worshipers were a Haradi and a Muslim. Though the place of their joint prayers we strange the positions of their bodies was clear. What I object to is the characterization of (all) Jews as Haradi. You do not think that the prostrate figure is a Muslim? [...] 5129 16 38_Re: Ugly Anti-Semitic LA Times Cartoon0_13_VFINK@aol.com29_Tue, 10 Oct 2000 08:19:46 EDT437_US-ASCII Having only seen a copy of the cartoon, it is a relief to know that as drawn it showed both an Arab and a Jew. Of course, it is not as serious as it originally appeared since they are only worshiping rather than worshipping.

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 5146 270 151_=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:_=E2=80=AE=3F=E2=80=AC=E2=80=AD=3F_=E2=80=ACLegibility=E2=80=AD_=E2=80=ACGlitc h=E2=AD-=E2=ACReply=E2=AD_=E2=ACto=E2=AD_=E2=ACAmnon?=0_24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Tue, 10 Oct 2000 14:42:38 +02001715_US-ASCII Michael!! It still is illegible! What are we going to do here?? Maybe give me a call. I can be reached for sure every night at 10-12 p.m. Usually all day for that matter. pearl

On 9 Oct 2000, at 21:48, Michael Livni wrote:

{\rtf1\adeflang1037\ansi \deff6\deflang1024 {\fonttbl{\f0\fnil TimelTCY;}{\f1\fbidi Medina Lt BT;}{\f2\fmodern Courier New;}{\f3\fswiss Helvetica;}{\f4\fswiss Arial;}{\f5\ftech Symbol;}{\f6\froman Times New Roman;}{\f7\ftech Wingdings;}{\f8\fbidi FrankRuehl;}{\f9\fbidi Narkisim;}{\f10\fbidi Narkisim;}{\f11\fbidi Miriam;}{\f12\fbidi David;}{\f13\fbidi Aharoni;}} {\colortbl;\red255\green255\blue255;\red0\green0\blue0;\red255\green0\blue0;\red0\green255\blue0;\red0\green0\blue255;\red0\green255\blue255;\red255\green0\blue255;\red255\green255\blue0;} {\stylesheet{\rtlch\af12\afs20\ltrch\f6\fs20\snext0 Normal;}} {\info{\author KSHARIM}{\nofpages0}{\nofwords0}{\nofchars0}} \ltrdoc\paperw11900\paperh16820\margl1440\margr1440\margt720\margb720\widowctrl\ftnbj\endnhere {\*\pnseclvl1\pndec\pnqc\pnprev1\pnstart1{\pntxta .}} {\*\pnseclvl2\pndec\pnqc\pnprev1\pnstart1{\pntxta .}} {\*\pnseclvl3\pndec\pnqc\pnprev1\pnstart1{\pntxta .}} {\*\pnseclvl4\pndec\pnqc\pnprev1\pnstart1{\pntxta .}} {\*\pnseclvl5\pndec\pnqc\pnprev1\pnstart1{\pntxta .}} {\*\pnseclvl6\pndec\pnqc\pnprev1\pnstart1{\pntxta .}} {\*\pnseclvl7\pndec\pnqc\pnprev1\pnstart1{\pntxta .}} {\*\pnseclvl8\pndec\pnqc\pnprev1\pnstart1{\pntxta .}} {\*\pnseclvl9\pndec\pnqc\pnprev1\pnstart1{\pntxta .}} {\*\pn \pnlvlcont\pndec\pnqc\pnprev1\pnstart1{\pntxta .}}{\pard\ltrpar\ql\li0\ri0\fi0\sb0\sa0\sl240\slmult0 {\plain\ltrch \lang1033\f6\fs24 \cf2 \par }} {\*\pn \pnlvlcont\pndec\pnqc\pnprev1\pnstart1{\pntxta [...] 5417 35 0_11_Jamie Levin22_mazkir@habonimdror.org31_Tue, 10 Oct 2000 09:54:11 -0400599_iso-8859-1 The lessons of Yom Kippur should resonate through our communities during this time of renewed violence. Yom Kippur is a time for reconciliation. While the news media, individuals and politicians alike are using their platforms to cast blame it is our responsibility to remind all sides of their promise to peace. This 'new year' must be used to move forward. No longer can people afford to hide behind the familiar rhetoric of hatred or mistrust. Both sides are at a critical juncture; war and peace lie ahead. The members of Habonim Dror North America must use this time to further [...] 5453 75 32_Fw: When Media Becomes Malignant8_J Gordon20_mountain@neworld.net31_Tue, 10 Oct 2000 08:56:32 -0700138_iso-8859-1















http://aish.com/issues/society/When_Media_Becomes_Malignant.asp 5529 95 32_Re: When Media Becomes Malignant13_avi rosenberg16_avi@gezer.org.il31_Tue, 10 Oct 2000 18:27:20 +0200366_iso-8859-1 To J Gordon If you've got something to say, come out and say it. I consider it bad taste to anonymously "throw" an attachment in my face, without me knowing who you are and what you represent.

----- Original Message ----- From: J Gordon To: habonet@shamash.org Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2000 5:56 PM Subject: Fw: When Media Becomes Malignant [...] 5625 32 32_Re: When Media Becomes Malignant0_15_DebALev@aol.com29_Tue, 10 Oct 2000 12:37:03 EDT309_US-ASCII In a message dated 10/10/00 9:28:43 AM Pacific Daylight Time, avi@gezer.org.il writes:

> To J Gordon > If you've got something to say, come out and say it. I consider it bad taste > to anonymously "throw" an attachment in my face, without me knowing who you > are and what you represent. [...] 5658 77 0_11_Jamie Levin22_mazkir@habonimdror.org31_Tue, 10 Oct 2000 13:10:12 -0400556_iso-8859-1 PRESS RELEASE OCTOBER 10 2000





Israel’s leaders have a critical task at hand. They must safeguard the nation’s most incipient ideals in the face of her most extreme and controversial ambitions. It has finally become clear that the opponents of peace are defending zealous ideals that will only lead to further friction with a neighboring nation. The current crisis is a challenge to the notions of democracy that have ensured Israel’s stability for the last 52 years. The future of Israel and her region are at stake. [...] 5736 714 30_Fw: EXTREMELY URGENT PETITION!13_Yuval Warshai16_warshais@tir.com31_Tue, 10 Oct 2000 14:36:31 -0400569_iso-8859-1 Kol hakavod to the mazkirut of HDNA and to Hashomer Hatzair. You guys have deeply touched me, you have even brought tears to my eyes. This is the socialist youth I remember from the days long ago when I was mazkir tnuah. Don't let up, hazak veematz, kadimah! In the light of your beautiful declaration of principle I want to humbly submit to the individual members of this list (Habonet), the petition below (in text and attached), that came from the other side. I think it is a very serious document, and I am seriously considering both signing it and [...] 6451 254 41_Trying again-message to Amnon and Habonet13_Michael Livni21_ml-lotan@zahav.net.il31_Tue, 10 Oct 2000 21:52:46 -0700145_utf-8 In Hebrew we say-- Paam Shlishit -- Glida -- even though I don't know what virtual glida would be like. Anyhow, try these two attachments / 6706 106 18_Extremely Bad Idea8_JON BAUM19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il31_Tue, 10 Oct 2000 21:07:57 +0200641_windows-1255 I would strongly urge members of the Habonet NOT to sign or forward the petition that Yuval has submitted to our list. The accompanying text is an extremely one-sided and inaccurate account of the current violence. The Palestinian Authority, in their TV news broadcast last night, has continued to call for it's citizens to go out on to the streets and attack Israeli soldiers and civilians, and has continued to broadcast incitement-laden announcements, that the Israeli government intends to destroy the Al Aqsah mosque, etc. I've seen these broadcasts personally. Yes, our army is more powerful than theirs. Sorry about [...] 6813 143 22_Re: Extremely Bad Idea11_Noam Stopak26_n.stopak@scienceserver.com31_Tue, 10 Oct 2000 15:18:23 -0400300_iso-8859-1 I agree with Jon that the document forwarded by Yuval is extremely one-sided and I will not sign it.

Jon asked "has anybody bothered to ask themselves what kind of idiot takes his 12 year old son to a riot?". Here's an article from the October 8 NY Times which addresses this. [...] 6957 151 22_Re: Extremely Bad Idea13_Yuval Warshai16_warshais@tir.com31_Tue, 10 Oct 2000 15:18:19 -0400587_windows-1255 Dear Jon,

What is your mispar ishi betzahal? Mine is 2284109. I have vowed long ago before this list that I would come back to Israel and volunteer with Tzahal to help with the evacuation of the conquered territories, to end the occupation, and to help with the difficult task of unsettling the religious settlers that are going to have to be unsettled within the framework of a final peace agreement between Israel and Palestine, that is also going to be recognized and endorsed by the entire Arab League (including Syria and Iraq). I am ready to come back now [...] 7109 191 22_Re: Extremely Bad Idea8_JON BAUM19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il31_Tue, 10 Oct 2000 21:25:59 +0200625_windows-1255 My mispar ishi is 3606345. It's nice to have the option of going to miluim only when the mission strikes your fancy. ----- Original Message ----- From: Yuval Warshai To: habonet@shamash.org Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2000 9:18 PM Subject: Re: Extremely Bad Idea



Dear Jon,

What is your mispar ishi betzahal? Mine is 2284109. I have vowed long ago before this list that I would come back to Israel and volunteer with Tzahal to help with the evacuation of the conquered territories, to end the occupation, and to help with the difficult task of unsettling the religious settlers that are [...] 7301 50 37_Won't sign EXTREMELY URGENT PETITION!20_Zachary J Braiterman24_zbraiter@mailbox.syr.edu37_Tue, 10 Oct 2000 15:28:46 -0400 (EDT)469_US-ASCII



I cannot and will not sign the petition posted below for the following reasons --Zak Braiterman





> >URGENT PETITION! > > > >WE DEMAND INTERNATIONAL PROTECTION FOR PALESTINIANS!

It is not the job of the international community to protect Palestinians. That responsibility has since Oslo devolved upon the Palestinian Authority whose leadership has (at the very least) allowed the situation to unfold as it has. [...] 7352 241 22_Re: Extremely Bad Idea13_Yuval Warshai16_warshais@tir.com31_Tue, 10 Oct 2000 15:37:05 -0400457_windows-1255 No, I always served and fulfilled orders only when I could morally agree with them. That is why I always refused to serve in the occupied territories, and never served there. That is why I refused to continue serving Tzahal in Lebanon under Arik Sharon as defense minister after the 1982 massacres at Sabra and Shatila. And that is why I will come any time now and serve Barak to help end the wrongful occupation of Palestine. ___ |Y| ^^^ [...] 7594 279 22_Re: Extremely Bad Idea8_JON BAUM19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il31_Tue, 10 Oct 2000 21:49:57 +0200615_windows-1255 Morality is a wonderful thing. I'm sure Ehud Barak will go about his duties with a lighter heart knowing that he can count on you to help. ----- Original Message ----- From: Yuval Warshai To: habonet@shamash.org Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2000 9:37 PM Subject: Re: Extremely Bad Idea



No, I always served and fulfilled orders only when I could morally agree with them. That is why I always refused to serve in the occupied territories, and never served there. That is why I refused to continue serving Tzahal in Lebanon under Arik Sharon as defense minister after the 1982 massacres [...] 7874 51 22_Re: Extremely Bad Idea13_Yuval Warshai16_warshais@tir.com31_Tue, 10 Oct 2000 16:00:08 -0400234_windows-1255 I wonder who would give him more nightmares, in terms of the military tasks we can perform, or how we can contribute to his overall military strategy: you or me... Nah, I guess I'll leave it for him to decide. ___ |Y| ^^^ 7926 82 22_Re: Extremely Bad Idea8_JON BAUM19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il31_Tue, 10 Oct 2000 22:05:13 +0200484_windows-1255 He's got plenty of nightmares without thinking about you or me. But, at least, I'm here. ----- Original Message ----- From: Yuval Warshai To: habonet@shamash.org Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2000 10:00 PM Subject: Re: Extremely Bad Idea



I wonder who would give him more nightmares, in terms of the military tasks we can perform, or how we can contribute to his overall military strategy: you or me... Nah, I guess I'll leave it for him to decide. ___ |Y| ^^^ 8009 16 38_Re: Ugly Anti-Semitic LA Times Cartoon0_16_Aborciah@aol.com29_Tue, 10 Oct 2000 16:08:13 EDT400_ISO-8859-1 Although I live in L.A., I am out of town now and missed the cartoon...can't seem to access it any more with the address given. Can anyone tell me on which day it appeared?

Anita

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 8026 15 43_Re: Fwd: Ugly Anti-Semitic LA Times Cartoon0_16_Aborciah@aol.com29_Tue, 10 Oct 2000 16:12:49 EDT340_ISO-8859-1 Disregard my previous message. I had missed the "_" and was now able (unfortunately) to view it. What an abomination!!! Anita

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 8042 33 22_Re: Extremely Bad Idea11_Roslyn Lang26_langr@gunet.georgetown.edu31_Tue, 10 Oct 2000 16:10:34 -0400515_US-ASCII Boys, don't you think it's time to take this outside? (i.e., off the Habonet). You have each others email addresses - give the rest of us a break and have a more private conversation now. Thanks very much. Roz.

>>> jonbaum@sasa.org.il 10/10/00 4:05:13 PM >>> He's got plenty of nightmares without thinking about you or me. But, at least, I'm here. ----- Original Message ----- From: Yuval Warshai To: habonet@shamash.org Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2000 10:00 PM Subject: Re: Extremely Bad Idea [...] 8076 55 22_Re: Extremely Bad Idea13_Yuval Warshai16_warshais@tir.com31_Tue, 10 Oct 2000 16:14:07 -0400344_windows-1255 I want you and him, and anybody else who may be interested, to know that I am here too. I will leave my job and my family for this call, completely at my own discretion, and on my own means, and I am even willing to see who would get the call first in case of need, and who would arrive first at Bak"um at Tel Hashomer. ___ |Y| ^^^ 8132 16 38_Re: Ugly Anti-Semitic LA Times Cartoon0_16_Aborciah@aol.com29_Tue, 10 Oct 2000 16:18:51 EDT321_ISO-8859-1 Bob... True, perhaps, but the appearance of the Wall somehow seems to overshadow that of the Moslem. Anita

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 8149 22 38_Re: Ugly Anti-Semitic LA Times Cartoon13_Yuval Warshai16_warshais@tir.com31_Tue, 10 Oct 2000 16:33:52 -0400445_iso-8859-1 See, maybe the problem is that both Jews and Muslims tend to close their eyes when they bow and pray. Maybe if they opened their eyes what they'd see inscribed in God's wall is "LOVE" instead of "HATE?" Then again, maybe the only way to truly see God's will is the way that Bil'am did it(whatever it 'was' that 'he' 'did'): hagever satum ha'ayn... asher maxazeh shaday yexezeh nofel vegaluy eynaym [Numbers 24, 4-5]. ___ |Y| ^^^ [...] 8172 126 22_Re: Extremely Bad Idea14_Holtzer Family20_carmdave@urim.org.il31_Tue, 10 Oct 2000 22:35:44 +0200313_windows-1255 Dear Yuval and Jon,

Since BOTH of you are quite over the hill as combat soldiers go (me, too - my mispar ishi starts with 2187...), maybe you will take your conversation private instead of letting everyone on Habonet know all your army secrets......

Yuval - say hi your Bev for me [...] 8299 209 22_Re: Extremely Bad Idea8_JON BAUM19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il31_Tue, 10 Oct 2000 22:40:53 +0200482_windows-1255 Sorry I've bored you. I'm from Philadelphia. ----- Original Message ----- From: Holtzer Family To: habonet@shamash.org Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2000 10:35 PM Subject: Re: Extremely Bad Idea



Dear Yuval and Jon,

Since BOTH of you are quite over the hill as combat soldiers go (me, too - my mispar ishi starts with 2187...), maybe you will take your conversation private instead of letting everyone on Habonet know all your army secrets...... [...] 8509 103 22_Re: Extremely Bad Idea5_Ethan24_schwar1@netvision.net.il31_Tue, 10 Oct 2000 23:12:44 +0200572_windows-1255 I've got to get my ten agurot in on this one. First please let's keep this on line! Second I admire you, Yuval for Standing up for your beliefs in tzahal, by the way how much time did you spend in prison to support your Ideas. I also stood up for my beliefs and got transfered from hieyachzut Katif to Netzarim because Netzarim would never ever become a civilian settlement. (don't we feel like fools sometimes?). A fear I always had about taking Yuval's way is that it would leave the crazies performing the questionable tasks in unquestionable ways, I [...] 8613 125 22_Re: Extremely Bad Idea13_Yuval Warshai16_warshais@tir.com31_Tue, 10 Oct 2000 17:44:46 -0400564_windows-1255 Let me just correct a little assumption you made Ethan, least people will think I did spend time in jail for refusing to serve in Lebanon and in the West Bank. I was personally fortunate that my Maga"d was Tzvika, the merakez meshek (then) from Kibbutz Dovrat. Thanks to his vision and intervention I was moved from Pluga Khav to Pluga Lamed even before Sabra and Shatila, and that saved me from being perhaps lynched by some Jewish thugs from the Lod and Ramla area in Pluga Khav. I did get a conditional sentence for arguing with an officer in [...] 8739 57 22_Re: Extremely Bad Idea5_Ethan24_schwar1@netvision.net.il31_Tue, 10 Oct 2000 23:52:36 +0200321_windows-1255



The point I really wanted to make, Yuval, is that there is a difference between civil disobediance and covering ones own ass in order to feel good. There is room between the two but it sounds like you took the extreme, you comfortably covered your ass and made no statement by doing so. [...] 8797 79 22_Re: Extremely Bad Idea13_Yuval Warshai16_warshais@tir.com31_Tue, 10 Oct 2000 18:10:04 -0400541_windows-1255 I don't think I completely understand your point, Ethan. I never tried to cover my ass in these matters of life and death. I struggled hourly with my moral dilemmas and I was just fortunate that in my personal circumstances I did not end up actually spending time in jail for my convictions. As soon as I came home from the Golan for a break in June 1982 I became active in Yesh Gvul, and I signed the first Yesh Gvul declaration of refusal on the Hebrew press then. At that point I also 'knew' that Jibballyah was a quiet [...] 8877 16 43_"Michael Ramirez Editorial Cartoon" address0_15_AvivaMT@aol.com29_Tue, 10 Oct 2000 18:57:13 EDT374_US-ASCII Click Here: Michael Ramirez Editorial Cartoon--this address worked for me today.

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 8894 24 22_Re: Extremely Bad Idea0_15_Emabear@aol.com29_Tue, 10 Oct 2000 19:06:24 EDT560_US-ASCII May I be bold enough to ask what was Muhammad Al-Durrah doing there when he was shot? Why didn't his father take another route? And why is a 9 yr. old lying very critically wounded in a Gaza hospital today? Why didn't his mother, father make sure he didn't stay indoors, or did his mother send him out to throw stones? I hate to sound cynical but I am hurting so much inside. Israeli soldiers are someone's child also. What about those three poor souls in Palestinian hands? I remember when soldiers returned from Egypt after the Yom Kippur War. [...] 8919 162 16_Fwd: pls explain0_15_Marshlf@aol.com29_Tue, 10 Oct 2000 19:17:59 EDT422_US-ASCII Chevre-- I emailed cartoonist michael ramirez this a.m. asking him to explain his cartoon. I fwd you his reply: lisa Thank you for your inquiry.

Their seems to be a misperception by some that my cartoon depicts the Western Wall and that I have blamed the Israelis solely for the hatred and violence in the Middle East. Actually, the metaphor depicts BOTH Israelis AND Palestinians worshipping "hate". [...] 9082 100 25_RE>Re- Extremely Bad Idea14_Steve Schreier13_steve@ats.org24_10 Oct 00 19:32:19 +0000572_iso-8859-1 Wow. I don't know who Roz is, but I find myself, not only agreeing with her, but wondering: a. should I put my two cents into this dialectic,but then I doubt that anyone would care more about what I say than I care about what these gentlemen have to say. b. why do they have the chutzpa to label these exchanges "IMPORTANT"-wasting very valuable green virtual ink on my computer. c. wasn't there something about shades of grey that we spoke about as an underlying principle of "social justice" that allowed that there might actually be more than one right [...] 9183 57 22_RE: Extremely Bad Idea12_Fine, Sharon14_FineS@MLHS.ORG31_Tue, 10 Oct 2000 19:59:19 -0400566_- Thank you for your reply to Yuval, as well as Jon, Noam, & Zachary. You've all said things on my mind, better than I would have. I understand that Israel and some Israelis are by no means innocent in all this, but why Yuval and other Jews would want to condemn Israel's actions WHILE SIMULTANEOUSLY CONDONING THE PALESTINIANS is beyond me! Acknowledge Israel's guilt? Fine - at the right time and in the right place. Try to change the things Israel's doing wrong - absolutely, but not while Israeli boys are being shot at and firebombed. It's bad enough that [...] 9241 23 13_jerusalem apt0_17_Llamamint@aol.com29_Tue, 10 Oct 2000 20:37:50 EDT293_US-ASCII a while ago someone wrote about an apt in the german colony of jersualem

crazy as it may seem, i still plan to go to israel (to stay for several months)- probably next week and i am curious about the apartment i misplaced your email address. so let me know please thanks! [...] 9265 40 29_Re: RE>Re- Extremely Bad Idea0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Tue, 10 Oct 2000 21:47:21 EDT554_US-ASCII Dear Chevre- Our Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur days of "awe" have been inundated with the violence and ultimate terrifying reality of the status of Israel, it's ultimate existence, danger of friends, relatives, and even assumed "enemies" in the wake of this horrible time, and the fact that no matter how hard we want and wish for peace, the volatile state of the Middle East smacks us in the face even when we want to just be at peace, if only for a few days. I have to say that personally, I have been sitting here reading the comments of [...] 9306 14 22_Re: Extremely Bad Idea0_18_Judithb253@aol.com29_Tue, 10 Oct 2000 22:57:56 EDT285_US-ASCII I disagree with Roz, and congratulate Jon on his stance and his answers!

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 9321 78 16_ramirez LA Times11_batya fromm18_fromm@inter.net.il31_Wed, 11 Oct 2000 08:41:41 +020061_us-ascii

file:///C|/My Documents/ramirez LA Times.htm 9400 44 22_Re: Extremely Bad Idea0_24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Wed, 11 Oct 2000 18:05:37 +0200529_US-ASCII It was reported in Ma'ariv the other day that Arab families have been told they will receive $3,000 for every child killed and $200 for every injury. Seems to be worthwhile to them to send out the kids. I was shocked when I saw the scene of the death of the 12 year old. It is in the middle of shoom makom -- nowhere. Orchards all around, except for the Palestinian police post and the Israeli post nearby. It is obvious that no one just "walks and strolls" there. He came for a purpose: to throw rocks at the road [...] 9445 31 22_Re: Extremely Bad Idea0_15_DebALev@aol.com29_Wed, 11 Oct 2000 12:07:49 EDT326_US-ASCII In a message dated 10/11/00 8:59:01 AM Pacific Daylight Time, skolnik@netvision.net.il writes:

> It was reported in Ma'ariv the other day that Arab families have > been told they will receive $3,000 for every child killed and $200 > for every injury. Seems to be worthwhile to them to send out the > kids [...] 9477 25 28_Extremely offensive thinking11_Noam Stopak26_n.stopak@scienceserver.com31_Wed, 11 Oct 2000 12:22:55 -0400534_us-ascii

skolnik@netvision.net.il wrote:

> It was reported in Ma'ariv the other day that Arab families have > been told they will receive $3,000 for every child killed and $200 > for every injury. Seems to be worthwhile to them to send out the > kids.

My impression has been that you value your son a great deal more than $3000. I think it's sad that you feel the need to assert that others do not also value their children. This sort of dehumanization of the "other" does nothing to improve the situation. [...] 9503 68 22_Re: Extremely Bad Idea30_Victor M Glasberg & Associates17_vmg@tidalwave.net31_Wed, 11 Oct 2000 13:04:48 -0400587_us-ascii Hi,

This is a message to anyone out there who knows me and might want to get in touch privately, because I am now getting off Habonet. I recently learned of and signed onto Habonet, anticipating that it might be a source of information about long lost friends from the 11th Workshop and otherwise, and a forum for discussion of progressive issues touching Israel-related matters. While I have indeed made new contact with folks from days gone by, even this great benefit is not worth the heartache that comes from reading rubbish of the sort set forth below, to the [...] 9572 60 22_Re: Extremely Bad Idea5_Ethan24_schwar1@netvision.net.il31_Wed, 11 Oct 2000 19:08:18 +0200615_iso-8859-1 I was just wondering. Does anybody know how much Bituach leumi pays family's of victims of terrorism and fallen soldiers? ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2000 6:05 PM Subject: Re: Extremely Bad Idea



> It was reported in Ma'ariv the other day that Arab families have > been told they will receive $3,000 for every child killed and $200 > for every injury. Seems to be worthwhile to them to send out the > kids. I was shocked when I saw the scene of the death of the > 12 year old. [...] 9633 30 31_Re: paying kids to throw stones0_15_Marshlf@aol.com29_Wed, 11 Oct 2000 13:20:26 EDT529_US-ASCII I, too, have heard of this idea that Arafat is paying families to send thier kids off to throw rocks. My source tells me it was written up in the Jerusalem Post.

Rather criticize Pearl for "passing along the info," maybe it just serves to heighten our awareness that there are so many "sources of info" during this terrible situation, many of which are so-called reliable media. Sometimes I am left wondering who or what to believe, and I know that the American (and internatiaonal) public must also wonder. [...] 9664 43 31_Re: paying kids to throw stones11_Noam Stopak26_n.stopak@scienceserver.com31_Wed, 11 Oct 2000 13:41:33 -0400347_us-ascii Hi Lisa,

I don't think the objection is to passing along information, especially when the source is noted, as Pearl did.

I won't presume to speak for others, but I know my objection is to the opinion she expressed that parents would find this a reasonable inducement ("worthwhile to them") to sacrifice their children. [...] 9708 33 31_Re: paying kids to throw stones0_15_DebALev@aol.com29_Wed, 11 Oct 2000 13:51:29 EDT348_US-ASCII In a message dated 10/11/00 10:38:58 AM Pacific Daylight Time, n.stopak@scienceserver.com writes:

> > My own assessment of why these parents let their children go out to throw > rocks, based on limited information is that nationalism and religious fervor > are more of a motivation than the money, but I don't presume to know. [...] 9742 94 39_write letters for stopping the violence13_julia chaitin20_jchaitin@urim.org.il31_Wed, 11 Oct 2000 22:19:16 -0100323_iso-8859-1 Perhaps some of you, like me, have been in shock for the past 2 weeks concerning what is happening here in Israel. This shock has prevented me from doing anything much other than thinking and talking non-stop about how terrible the situation is.

I think that I can do more. I think that you can too. [...] 9837 20 22_Re: Extremely Bad Idea0_15_Emabear@aol.com29_Wed, 11 Oct 2000 16:18:29 EDT466_US-ASCII They are not sending out their children "for the money". There is the issue of martyrdom. In a jehad there is the principle of serving and dying for one's country, religion. That is what the $2000 dollar payment is/was for - making a martyr of the one who was killed. Let's not bend oer backwards to be self haters, PLEASE. My source of information for the payments was Israel Line, a daily email bulletin I get from the Israeli Consulate in New York. [...] 9858 23 22_Re: Extremely Bad Idea0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com29_Wed, 11 Oct 2000 16:31:54 EDT398_US-ASCII In a message dated 10/11/00 11:58:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time, skolnik@netvision.net.il writes:

> My sister's neighbor's child > had an eye taken out by a rock thrown by an Arab child in > Hebron area. Rocks kill.

I'm sure rocks do kill. I'm sure that when crazy religious Jews throw stones they can also kill but I don't think the Israeli army shoots at them. Do they? [...] 9882 23 31_Re: paying kids to throw stones0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Wed, 11 Oct 2000 18:00:57 EDT564_US-ASCII Dear Chevre- The "being paid to throw stones" info was broadcast over the Kol Ysrael wires as being reported by a Colonel Tivon- head of the IDF in Hebron- that the PLO (PA) Authority was passing out these fliers, and they were also shown on television ( kids would be paid $300 to throw stones, and anyone who loses a child would be paid $2,000). Then, a Dr. Chanan Ashwari was denying this on CNN as a "spin from the opressive Israelis"..... So, before you go and condemn Pearl- you should check out the sources too.....She was only reporting what [...] 9906 24 31_Re: paying kids to throw stones0_15_DebALev@aol.com29_Wed, 11 Oct 2000 18:07:13 EDT466_US-ASCII Hanan Ashwari is a well-spoken, educated Palestinian woman who has been working toward a resolution of this for many years, Susie. I have always respected what she has had to say, and it has always sounded rational to me, given her background.

I wouldn't always assume, at this point, that what you hear is correct. Or incorrect, for that matter. What I strongly did and do object to is Pearl's assumption that Palestinian families would do it. [...] 9931 36 22_Re: Extremely Bad Idea12_Frances Rudy21_tsip@worldnet.att.net31_Wed, 11 Oct 2000 15:43:26 -0700405_us-ascii Richard,

I think there is a world of difference in intent between the Jewish and Palestinian stone throwers: the latter INTEND to inflict lethal harm. The Arab(s) who threw a brick off an overpass onto a Jewish car below, killing the driver, knew damned well what the consequences of correct aim could be. The shabbos stone throwers, despicable as they are, are not in the same camp. [...] 9968 37 31_Re: paying kids to throw stones12_Frances Rudy21_tsip@worldnet.att.net31_Wed, 11 Oct 2000 15:54:01 -0700466_us-ascii Debbie,

Yes, Ashwari, is articulate and well-educated. I think she used to be a professor of English before she found a new calling during the intifada. She also is and has always been a vituperative twister of facts. Her performance on Nightline last night scared the shit out of me, smiling and smirking over her lies. As you say, she rational, but again as you say, you shouldn't assume that what you hear from her mouth is correct. [...] 10006 104 43_Re: write letters for stopping the violence12_Frances Rudy21_tsip@worldnet.att.net31_Wed, 11 Oct 2000 16:00:30 -0700596_us-ascii Julia,

Have you sent your letters to the Palestine Authority or Chairman Arafat, asking them also to do their part to stop the violence and bloodshed???

Tsippi



At 10:19 PM 10/11/00 -0100, you wrote: >Perhaps some of you, like me, have been in shock for the past 2 weeks >concerning what is happening here in Israel. This shock has prevented me >from doing anything much other than thinking and talking non-stop about how >terrible the situation is. > >I think that I can do more. I think that you can too. > >I wrote some letters to the Prime Minister, [...] 10111 349 47_(Fwd) Arutz-7 News: Wednesday, October 11, 20000_24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Thu, 12 Oct 2000 01:18:56 +0200569_US-ASCII I just began receiving Arutz 7 news bulletins and find them very helpful in understanding the situation and how the world reacts to what is happening here. Strangely enough there is mention of Arab media calling on Arab parents to sacrifice their children... something which I find horrific. pearl ------- Forwarded message follows ------- Date sent: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 18:43:46 +0200 To: arutz-7@IsraelNationalNews.com From: Arutz-7 Editor Subject: Arutz-7 News: Wednesday, October 11, 2000 Send reply to: netnews@a7.org [...] 10461 56 36_Here is something really obscene Vic0_24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Thu, 12 Oct 2000 01:18:56 +0200509_US-ASCII I don't quite understand why what I wrote is obscene. The media reported it and I repeated it. I didn't make it up. I read Ma'ariv. Here is a true story. The driver of an Egged bus tells it. His route is Kiryat Arba- Jerusalem. Every morning at about 5:30 a.m. an Arab family that lives on the access road used to lay their crippled son in the middle of the road, while it was still dark. They wanted the bus to hit the child as the bus made its way to Kiryat Arba. And every morning as the bus [...] 10518 28 13_(Fwd) Fwd: Hi0_24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Thu, 12 Oct 2000 01:18:55 +0200751_US-ASCII

------- Forwarded message follows ------- From: Taximan377@aol.com Date sent: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 15:38:09 EDT Subject: Fwd: Hi To: Redbrend47@aol.com, erezh@transclal.co.il, GGOALIEG@aol.com, GILLYGIRLB@aol.com, GBA103@aol.com, Harvo3@optonline.net, JHettena@aol.com, lizs@eisa.net.au, Trvl12953@aol.com, naama69@netvision.net.il, skolnik@netvision.net.il, RPear341@aol.com, CaptBlue4u@aol.com, Robbyeye@aol.com, Ryng@mnet.fr, drjay1@optonline.net, robtway@hotmail.com





------- End of forwarded message -------

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 10547 53 22_Re: Extremely Bad Idea0_24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Thu, 12 Oct 2000 01:18:56 +0200504_US-ASCII Debbie, For God's sake I did not make it up. We are witness to Arab parents making parties for their sheehads (martyrs). I watched an Arab woman a day after her child was killed saying how happy she was that he died for the Palestinian cause. This is something we can not fathom! I am sure that not all parents do this. I have one Arab friend who stays home from work all day lately to keep an eye on his boys, making sure they stay in the house and do not go out to the main road to throw [...] 10601 61 38_Help stop the anti-Israeli propaganda!11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org31_Wed, 11 Oct 2000 18:27:29 -0500621_us-ascii Mailbox: Main Message: 1 of 99













From: "Roz Barland"

Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 18:24:58 -0500 Reply-To: To: Subject: Stop the Propaganda! --------------------------------------------------------------------------------









I received this message today, and thought I would forward it. Rozzie



The site is in Hebrew.

-------- Original Message -------- Subject: Fw:Help stop anti-Israeli propaganda Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 13:51:43 -0400 [...] 10663 2144 18_Fw: media coverage8_J Gordon20_mountain@neworld.net31_Wed, 11 Oct 2000 16:32:31 -0700383_iso-8859-1





Sorry I didn't know the proper ettiquette but I did think this was an interesting article that the people in Habonet might be interested in.

Judy Gordon Habonin Camp Naaleh 'early sixties

Here is is, cut and pasted:





issues . society . arts . science & nature . philosophy . jewish people . women . medical [...] 12808 17 22_Re: Extremely Bad Idea0_12_AZMD@aol.com29_Wed, 11 Oct 2000 19:52:10 EDT388_US-ASCII Dear Jon, I only got on Habonet last week yet my eyes have been opened about what is going on in your country. If there is anything to do let me know. Your friend Allan Zubkin

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 12826 16 31_Re: paying kids to throw stones0_18_Judithb253@aol.com29_Wed, 11 Oct 2000 22:40:21 EDT430_US-ASCII One of the articles in the Post yesterday actually quoted some of the young Arabs who declared that it would be worth their life to take down a few Israelis. I'll try to see exactly who and what date if you want. judy

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 12843 118 31_re: When Media Become Malignant12_Nancy Gordon13_nancy@dtg.net31_Wed, 11 Oct 2000 23:01:31 -0400599_iso-8859-1 Perhaps it did not occur to those who responded negatively to my sister's posting of the link only to the above-referenced article, that some people may be new to this list and unaware of the proper "etiquette." In fact, Judy was only attempting to share a thought-provoking article that happens to be extremely relevant to recent discussions on this list. A friendly correction might have been more in order than a rebuke. For a list where the word "chevre" is bandied about so much, there is sometimes a decided lack of friendliness here. This only serves to discourage new voices [...] 12962 23 16_Pearl's response7_Ephraim14_cbma@erols.com31_Wed, 11 Oct 2000 23:38:39 -0400514_us-ascii I am sorry about the injuries suffered by your friends, but although I know that the 23 yr old may have been hurt while serving, I wonder about the child in the Hebron area. I don't respect people who put their children in harm's way be they Israeli or Palestinian. I view people who raise their little ones in settlements in occupied territories in the same light I view people who send their children off to violent protests to become martyrs. I get tired of hearing how they are victims of Arabs. [...] 12986 29 29_Re: RE>Re- Extremely Bad Idea0_18_Green88888@aol.com29_Wed, 11 Oct 2000 23:28:53 EDT559_US-ASCII I,like Susie and some others have been torn apart by the events of this past week. No matter how "liberal" I may think I am, no matter how"left" or simpathetic I may feel towards the Palestinians, pictures of Palestians destroying Joseph's tomb bring back pictures of 1948 and the words that come to my mind are"blee sof" - the war between the Jews and Palestians appears to be simply without an end. No matter how much I want to believe in finding a peaceful solution (and I'm sure many on both sides truly do), I wonder if those who destroyed [...] 13016 372 51_Re: (Fwd) Arutz-7 News: Wednesday, October 11, 200016_Marc Hershkowitz21_marchersh@hotmail.com29_Thu, 12 Oct 2000 04:22:08 GMT460_- For anyone who doesn't know the source of Arutz 7, it is a bunch of crazy fanatic religious zealots who are mostly the cause of our troubles today.

Without even reading any of the below...take it with a grain of salt.



----Original Message Follows---- From: skolnik@netvision.net.il Reply-To: habonet@shamash.org To: Habonet@shamash.org Subject: (Fwd) Arutz-7 News: Wednesday, October 11, 2000 Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 01:18:56 +0200 [...] 13389 28 42_Re: Help stop the anti-Israeli propaganda!0_18_Rachelbern@aol.com29_Thu, 12 Oct 2000 00:57:31 EDT474_US-ASCII Can someone please tell me what is on the site referred to in Roz's message? I would NEVER put my support behind something -- especially on the internet -- without knowing exactly who is behind it and how they plan to achieve the stated goal, and I don't feel comfortable with blind instructions like <> [...] 13418 19 22_Re: Extremely Bad Idea0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com29_Thu, 12 Oct 2000 06:04:18 EDT465_US-ASCII In a message dated 10/11/00 6:44:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time, tsip@worldnet.att.net writes:

> The shabbos stone throwers, despicable as they are, are not in the > same camp. Why not? A stone which hits someone hurts no matter what the intent is.

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 13438 74 22_Re: Extremely Bad Idea24_Rosalind Goldfarb Levitt14_rahz@erols.com31_Thu, 12 Oct 2000 10:17:15 -0700546_us-ascii I have been trying to get off Habonet but I have not been successful. Please let me know how you managed to get off. Thanks. Ros Goldfarb

Victor M Glasberg & Associates wrote:

> Hi, > > This is a message to anyone out there who knows me and might want to get > in touch privately, because I am now getting off Habonet. I recently > learned of and signed onto Habonet, anticipating that it might be a > source of information about long lost friends from the 11th Workshop and > otherwise, and a forum for discussion of [...] 13513 40 31_"Kol od B'levav-"- a confession0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Thu, 12 Oct 2000 10:22:09 EDT544_US-ASCII Dear Chevre- Almost thirty years have passed since the Yom Kippur War, and yet I am still reeling from the trauma and memories of those times. Whenever "the season" rolls around, I grit my teeth at everything; I cry easily at thoughts that creep back into my head; I get angry at God or whatever Power there is that forces me to become more introsepctive and think hard about my every day living because it is generally hard enough. There were times when I tried to ignore it all, but the years have brought me some kind of a new [...] 13554 92 47_A Time to Cast Stones And a Time to Gather Sons12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Thu, 12 Oct 2000 22:18:49 +0200598_us-ascii Haverot/im Today was awful. Four Israeli soldiers took a wrong turn and were stopped at a roadblock of the Palestinian Authority outside Ramalah. They were beaten up in the car taking them to the h.q. of the Palestinian police and later two of them were lynched there by a mob. The airforce sent helicopters fired rockets into the police building. Arafat's headquarters in Azza was also subjected to rockets. Our granddaughter, Noa, is enrolled in a bi-cultural, Hebrew Arabic school in Jerusalem. Today, in light of the events of today and the last few days and in advance of sukkot [...] 13647 30 51_Re: A Time to Cast Stones And a Time to Gather Sons13_Yuval Warshai16_warshais@tir.com31_Thu, 12 Oct 2000 16:43:27 -0400586_iso-8859-1 > And to Vic Glasberg, please stick around; "progressive issues touching on > Israel-related matters" need your voice and your passion. > Amnon Hadary

I second Amnon's plea to Vic. Everything he has written on this list has somehow resounded with me. If we are going to have Arutz Sheva on this list as an objective source of news on the war going on at home, we need also more independent and piercing minds such as Vic's to help chart a new future course for the Jewish people, through the difficult times ahead. As my friend Shmuel Sermoneta-Gertel wrote from [...] 13678 123 39_Fw: Habonim Shabbaton at Kibbutz Lotan!13_Pearl Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Thu, 12 Oct 2000 23:46:25 +0200707_iso-8859-1

----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, September 25, 2000 7:38 PM Subject: Habonim Shabbaton at Kibbutz Lotan!



> Chaverim y'karim, shalom, > It's time for another reunion cum shabbaton! The shabbaton is > being organized beginning 4 p.m. Thursday Nov.16, through > Shabbat, November 18, 2000. Like "in days of yore": sichot, > kumsitz, oneg shabbat, easy desert walking tours, chavershaft. > Experience Shabbat on Kibbutz Lotan, a liberal Jewish renewal > kibbutz, a founding member-kibbutz of the zerem shitufi, i.e., > the collective stream -- no privatization. If you want to pre-visit > Kibbutz Lotan [...] 13802 344 0_0_24_skolnik@netvision.net.il37_Thu, 12 Oct 2000 23:47:13 +0200 (IST) 14147 24 13_VIRUS! again.0_21_BCooper@descartes.com31_Thu, 12 Oct 2000 17:48:02 -0400515_iso-8859-1 Looks like an attachment Perl sent has a virus. Don't open the attachment.

PLEASE STOP SENDING ATTACHMENTS.

Chag Sameach, brian

> -----Original Message----- > From: skolnik@netvision.net.il [mailto:skolnik@netvision.net.il] > Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2000 5:47 PM > Subject: >

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 14172 69 35_Re: "Kol od B'levav-"- a confession29_Richard Steacy & Esther Cohen22_richard.steacy@gte.net31_Thu, 12 Oct 2000 20:17:21 -0400616_iso-8859-1 thanks for the words of reason. -esther cohen mosh 70-75+ ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2000 10:22 AM Subject: "Kol od B'levav-"- a confession



> Dear Chevre- > Almost thirty years have passed since the Yom Kippur War, and yet I am still > reeling from the trauma and memories of those times. Whenever "the season" > rolls around, I grit my teeth at everything; I cry easily at thoughts that > creep back into my head; I get angry at God or whatever Power there is that > forces me to [...] 14242 132 7_Despair0_13_SC523@aol.com29_Fri, 13 Oct 2000 00:09:46 EDT543_UTF-8 I'm sure Habonet hasn't been at such an all time low since the night it was founded when Rabin was assassinated. In any case, having believed for years in the Palestinian cause, and that an end to Israeli occupation would lead to 2 States joined in a peace treaty, I am completely disillusioned and feel like we have been duped. Having 2 kids in Israel, one on Workshop and one in Jerusalem (the older of the two far more left than me and my friends) only exacerbates the feeling that I was too blind to see that Arafat never meant [...] 14375 56 11_Re: Amichai0_13_SC523@aol.com29_Fri, 13 Oct 2000 00:45:55 EDT428_US-ASCII Here's another Amichai poem, cogent as can be - (strength to all, Aliya) :





The Diameter of the Bomb

Yehuda Amichai



The Diameter of the bomb was thirty centimeters

and the diameter of its effective range about seven meters,

with four dead and eleven wounded.

And around these, in a larger circle

of pain and time, two hospitals are scattered [...] 14432 147 19_Despair - Try Again0_13_SC523@aol.com29_Fri, 13 Oct 2000 03:35:25 EDT543_UTF-8 I'm sure Habonet hasn't been at such an all time low since the night it was founded when Rabin was assassinated. In any case, having believed for years in the Palestinian cause, and that an end to Israeli occupation would lead to 2 States joined in a peace treaty, I am completely disillusioned and feel like we have been duped. Having 2 kids in Israel, one on Workshop and one in Jerusalem (the older of the two far more left than me and my friends) only exacerbates the feeling that I was too blind to see that Arafat never meant [...] 14580 24 32_Apartment available in Jerusalem8_guttbass25_guttbass@netvision.net.il31_Fri, 13 Oct 2000 10:27:50 +0200604_iso-8859-1 In a recent Habonet there was a request for housing in Jerusalem - unfortunately I deleted it too quickly. We would be happy to help out - we have a fully furnished apartment available. Whoever sent the request is welcome to contact me (Naomi Guttman-Bass) at guttbass@netvision.net.il.

The situation here in Jerusalem and in Israel is so fluid that one is left breathless. The feeling is one of instability on all fronts, inside and outside, Jews, Israeli Arabs, Palestinian Arabs, Iraq....Hoping for de-escalation as soon as possible, even if peace has receded from the horizon. [...] 14605 35 44_How to sign-off (was RE: Extremely Bad Idea)0_21_BCooper@descartes.com31_Fri, 13 Oct 2000 10:00:37 -0400438_iso-8859-1 To unsubscribe, send an email to: listproc@shamash.org (note: NOT to habonet@shamash.org) with this message: unsubscribe habonet

That's it.

Please note that you always have the option of receiving habonet in "digest mode" -- a single email each day with all of that day's posts in one digest. Many of our subscribers prefer that method as a way of handling all the email traffic that sometimes happens here! [...] 14641 35 18_Need a Little Help7_Greener25_ddwgreen@netvision.net.il31_Sat, 14 Oct 2000 04:39:18 +0200312_us-ascii It is hard to get our minds on the fact that our "other" lives go on (my middle son was called up to reserves in the Shomron the morning before Yom Kippur, and we have been glued to radio and TV for days), but I have a very mundane request in the midst of all the horrifying events of recent days. [...] 14677 45 31_Internet Security Forum Doc.pdf16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Fri, 13 Oct 2000 11:28:34 -0400355_us-ascii Pearl, I am sure inadvertantly, downloaded a file onto Habonet 1683 entitled "Internet Security Forum Doc.pdf."

DO NOT ATTEMPT TO OPEN THIS ATTACHMENT. IT IS A VIRUS.

Happily in my case, it was immediately detected and quarrantined by Norton Anti-Virus. In the future we should all be careful about the attachments we forward. [...] 14723 29 35_RE: Internet Security Forum Doc.pdf0_21_BCooper@descartes.com31_Fri, 13 Oct 2000 11:38:48 -0400570_iso-8859-1

Elihu said: > ... "Internet Security Forum Doc.pdf." > DO NOT ATTEMPT TO OPEN THIS ATTACHMENT. IT IS A VIRUS. > In the future we should all be careful about the attachments we > forward.

And I repeat, DO NOT send attachments.

At some point a future revision of the listproc software is expected to provide the list manager with the capability to reject attachments. I will most certainly enforce that when I have that capability. Until then, let's enforce this voluntarily please!! NO ATTACHMENTS, and also no HTML mail. Just text. [...] 14753 1024 3_War1_.24_ariehval@hatzerim.org.il31_Fri, 13 Oct 2000 18:51:59 +0200557_iso-8859-1 Dear friends, Allow me to interrupt the peaceful mood at habonet!!!!!! There is a war going on in Israel. I am attaching two terrible pictures from a "lintch" done yesterday to two Israelis in Ramalla. In the Israeli peace movement there is a lot of confusion concerning the future situation and how can we live together with such "human animals" who can do such a murder. How in world the is no sign from a peace movement in the Palestinian side who will stand and say "enough is enough" - we can not bear more shooting and killing and the [...] 15778 37 22_Using the reply button17_Martin J. Goodman19_mgoodman@012.net.il31_Fri, 13 Oct 2000 08:20:07 +0200361_Windows-1252 Chevre,

Please be aware that when you compose a new habonet message by using the "reply" button, the entire message to which you are replying is included in the new email that you are composing. This makes the Habonet Digest about ten times as long as it needs to be, and my fingers are growing weary of pushing the "page down" button. [...] 15816 80 19_Songs of Our People12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Sat, 14 Oct 2000 21:32:45 +0200546_us-ascii Happy Sukkot, This has been a grim, but not a catastrophic week. I'd like to share my take on it with the clear understanding that I tend to come on optimistic. I wrote Elihu yesterday "I don't know if you can take my military/political forecasts with anything other than a grain of salt (in '67 I bet Aharon Shoiriff that there wouldn't be a six day war and lost a volume of the Anchor Bible Bereshit for my foolishness.) But the same optimism persists in me. So yes" think about >(and keep) wishing for a good and sweet year" the [...] 15897 82 9_Re: Songs8_JON BAUM19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il31_Sat, 14 Oct 2000 22:27:35 +0200574_windows-1255 Amnon, I don't know you, but I would guess that, like me, you love your books. I would advise you to stop wagering them on the good intentions or the logical methods of Arab leaders, especially those of the Palestinians, who have littered the history of their people with missed oportunities and tragic consequences. I have the feeling that things are going to get a lot worse before they get better. Maybe we were wrong. Maybe we can't make peace who are so willing to sacrifice their children or who turn into wild animals every time they don't get what [...] 15980 26 9_Re: Songs0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Sat, 14 Oct 2000 23:09:18 EDT545_US-ASCII Dear Jon- The tragedy in all of this is the fact that you have lost hope. The warring and loss of life, and rhetoric are bad enough, but somewhere deep down you have to still hope; you can't give up on that. I believe (probably naively) that somewhere down the line there will come some real leader who will see that the only future of this Land of Milk and Honey lies in the peaceful coexistence of all of its neighbors. Israel has come far in the past years-making peace- even if only slightly symbolic - with neighbors who once [...] 16007 96 38_Re: Israeli peace camp - coming events0_15_NEVETS2@aol.com29_Sun, 15 Oct 2000 13:08:46 EDT386_US-ASCII Chevre, Shalom

Since the I accompanied the Camp Galil delegation to Camp David in August, I have been receiving information about nitty-gritty "on the ground" Peace activities in Israel from those working for Peace there and in the US. Before the outbreak of violence, I would not have passed this information along to my online contacts. It didn't seem necessary. [...] 16104 34 10_Tug of War0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Mon, 16 Oct 2000 00:09:37 EDT543_US-ASCII Tug of War

We played it as kids- Two teams pulling on the same rope I never really liked it Because no one really won.... Sometimes the bigger kids seemed to win - but They always fell down Tugging on the same rope. We played it in camp where the stakes were higher Two sides- Blue and White Pulling on the same rope But it really never proved anything. Then, as an adolescent, I felt like the mother Pulling the baby apart.... All done in fun, but somehow Two sides pulling on the same rope Never felt like anything much [...] 16139 22 26_Re: Using the reply button22_Deborah M Tanzer-Cohen15_candeb@juno.com31_Mon, 16 Oct 2000 08:47:49 -0500444_- It is also possible to set a default that does not include the previous text in the "reply". I use this, and am sure that if juno has this feature, most other providers do too. Debbie Tanzer-Cohen ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. [...] 16162 29 15_Patently untrue0_24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Thu, 12 Oct 2000 22:49:58 +0200527_US-ASCII Marc, what you wrote is patently untrue and misleading. You are echoing what you think to be the truth and add to the demonization of a lot of good people. There are people in arutz 7 who should be taken with a grain of salt, just as there are people in the rest of the media that are "crazies" in the other direction. By and large, these are people with their feet on the ground who understand only too well what is happening here. There is news here to read and Arutz 7 brings us under- standing of things that [...] 16192 18 9_Re: Songs0_16_BERNSARA@aol.com29_Mon, 16 Oct 2000 14:37:50 EDT437_US-ASCII Thanks Sue. I have been trying to put into words my thoughts that still insist that humans can learn to live in peace with each other on this earth and not as marters in an emagened heaven I will get it in here soon . Baruch

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 16211 93 22_good can come from bad0_24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Tue, 17 Oct 2000 00:26:57 +0200547_US-ASCII shalom, first, an apology for inadvertently sending a virus to Habonet. I can not imagine how it happened, and hope it won't ever happen again. I guess I shall have to learn how to use my Norton anti-virus program. Re the situation. I am an eternal optimist. I always believe that what happens happens for the best and that there is a reason for all that happens: we just have to find and understand the reason. Then it all falls into place. Believe me I have been trying for two weeks now: two weeks in which I have been completely [...] 16305 33 26_Re: good can come from bad0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Mon, 16 Oct 2000 23:20:36 EDT541_US-ASCII Dear Pearl- I understand the paralysis you feel. I felt that too in the Yom Kippur War. I wanted to just lay in bed with the blankets covering the windows and eat rimonim. But we had to try and make things as normal as we could for the kids....Rimonim are a great fruit for this time of nervousness...That was all I had for weeks- since it took hours to devour one...and yet it is full of vitamin C. I wonder if God plans for these uprisings to happen during the season of rimonim...hmmmm...something to think about. I am n to [...] 16339 18 18_Mistake correction0_24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Tue, 17 Oct 2000 09:26:22 +0200401_US-ASCII Habonet, shalom, I accidently wrote wrong name in for one of the architects of Oslo who called the Arabs at the lynching in Ramalah "chayot adam." It was Uri Savir who did so. Sorry. pearl

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 16358 26 26_shabbaton in kibbutz Lotan0_24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Tue, 17 Oct 2000 12:11:18 +0200584_US-ASCII Chaverim, The time is getting nearer to our first shabbaton. If you have not yet registered and want to attend, please contact ml-lotan@zahav.net.il You may also inform Michael at that email address if you wish to take an active part in leading sichot or shira. Please tell your friends about the shabbaton, especially since many of our bogrei Habonim in Israel do not participate in this forum and therefore do not know about it. I am very excited about this venture, as I hope you are, and I hope to see you there. "n'chadesh yameinu k'kedem," so to speak. Meanwhile, [...] 16385 39 38_"Last Night I had the Strangest Dream"0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Tue, 17 Oct 2000 10:40:38 EDT590_US-ASCII I got up this morning with my head swimming. I dreamt that the Shin Bet and the Jewish Federations all over the world launched a program called "Operation Obie" ( for "Olive Branch"- but the Obies are the Off-Broadway Tony Awards)...It went like this: 1000 planes airlifted( actually went in and swooped them all up) 350,000 Palestinians and brought them to the American Southwest where they were clothed, taught new trades, the children were schooled and given toys, by Priests and Rabbis and Teenagers who wanted to help- they were in a kind of a "Boys Towns" (there were a [...] 16425 75 26_Re: good can come from bad13_Yuval Warshai16_warshais@tir.com31_Tue, 17 Oct 2000 11:03:21 -0400392_iso-8859-1 Thanks, Sue, for expressing the first thoughts that go through every Jew's hearts, there or here, in these difficult times.

Thanks also for keeping the mind cool and writing, regarding the flood of right-wing political venom that came with Pear's message: "I am not sure about your analysis."

I am a little surer about it. Pearl had written, among other things: [...] 16501 41 21_Re: "Strangest Dream"8_JON BAUM19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il31_Tue, 17 Oct 2000 17:06:06 +0200121_windows-1255 Sue, you might want to think about changing your medication. Or stop eating tacos just before you go to bed. 16543 358 53_Fwd: An interesting article by an Arab-American (fwd)0_15_DebALev@aol.com29_Tue, 17 Oct 2000 12:30:31 EDT527_ISO-8859-1 Forwarded from another list....

> Myths of the > Middle East > by Joseph Farrah > > © 2000 WorldNetDaily.com > > I've been quiet since Israel erupted in fighting > spurred by disputes over the Temple Mount. > > Until now, I haven't even bothered to say, "See, I > told you so." But I can't resist any longer. I feel > compelled to remind you of the column I wrote just > a couple weeks before the latest uprising. Yeah, > folks, I predicted it. That's OK. Hold your applause. > > After all, I wish I had [...] 16902 19 5_Tacos0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Tue, 17 Oct 2000 12:47:29 EDT368_US-ASCII Dear Jon- I only take aspirin and advil and vitamins, and I never eat Tacos before I go to bed--Maybe a little therapy would help instead....or maybe some world saneness.....( how come little kids can play together, yet grown men have to kill each other?- I know this is a simple - simplistic- question, but it has haunted me for quite a while)......Sue [...] 16922 36 26_Re: good can come from bad0_15_Emabear@aol.com29_Tue, 17 Oct 2000 15:03:44 EDT565_US-ASCII Dear friends, Those of you who know me know that I am neither a fanatic, fundamentalist, messianic, nor fascist. I am a pashut yid, a simple Jew that loves my co-religionists, that was brought up with a love for my country, Israel. I lived in Israel for a number of years, only to return to America for personal reasons. I continue to visit almost every year, usually for extended periods of time. I have been a member of Habonet almost since it's inception, reading the points of view of all and commenting when so moved. The personal attacks on one [...] 16959 29 26_Re: good can come from bad13_Yuval Warshai16_warshais@tir.com31_Tue, 17 Oct 2000 15:24:43 -0400554_iso-8859-1 Dear Ellen,

I am very sorry I have offended your personal and religious feelings. If you were able to bond with Kever Rachel after all these years of Jewish exile it is because the Arabs and Muslims have taken good care of it and maintained it as apparently a biblical shrine for hundreds and hundreds of years, without Jewish domination or sovereignty. I am sure that when there is a true and just peace in Israel, and I still hope we all live to see that, my Palestinian friends will be glad to let you and me visit the supposed [...] 16989 36 26_RE: good can come from bad0_21_BCooper@descartes.com31_Tue, 17 Oct 2000 15:34:45 -0400560_iso-8859-1 Ellen said: > This last email touched my core in a profound way and > I cannot be honest with myself and still subscribe to a listserv > that includes members that express these attitudes. Yuval said: > I will unsubscribe instead of you. Shalom,

I think you should both cut it out! Habonet has been good to both of you and you have both contributed a lot in return. Of course, if the majority opinions were similar to Yuval's Ellen, you could argue you have to leave because of the types of opinions expressed here. But there are around [...] 17026 22 12_Kever Rachel11_Don Goelman31_goelman@tiger.csc.villanova.edu37_Tue, 17 Oct 2000 16:41:09 -0400 (EDT)414_us-ascii OK, I guess I need to turn myself in as another person who gives a shit about Kever Rachel. Even among us who aren't terribly observant are some for whom the Haftara we heard on RH2 resonates deeply, from "Kol b'rama nishma," through "Rahel mevaka al baneha" and on through "v'shavu banim lig'vulam." Not sure it's a huge consolation that if we behave ourselves better we'll someday be allowed back. [...] 17049 35 16_Re: Kever Rachel13_Yuval Warshai16_warshais@tir.com31_Tue, 17 Oct 2000 17:07:48 -0400593_iso-8859-1 Dear Don,

Have you been there? What were your feelings when you were there? Do you really believe that little old Arab building is really the place [bederekh efrata hu) beit lexem - bereshit/genesis 35, 16-20] where Yaakov buried his beloved Rachel, after Benjamin's birth? Do you really believe we are talking here about two historical characters of flesh and blood like you and me, and it describes 'historically' what happened to them in a precisely defined time and place? I don't. But even if you do, and you do care about that little forlorn old Arab house in the [...] 17085 42 23_Interesting thought....0_24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Tue, 17 Oct 2000 23:40:20 +0200577_US-ASCII Chaverim, shalom, Today, in a discussion about the Situation, I brought up my contention that we are involved in a religious rather than a geopolitical war, and my friend said: "No, it is a war of Identity. That is why the Arabs destroyed the archaeological site on Har HaBayit, the Shalom al Yisrael synagogue and the Kever Yosef synagogue. And that is why at this moment they are trying to destroy Kever Rachel. They must destroy our past in Eretz Yisrael, our identity as Israeli Jews, so they can establish their identity as being the true sons of this soil. [...] 17128 18 5_Yuval0_24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Tue, 17 Oct 2000 23:40:20 +0200401_US-ASCII Yuval, your attack shows that you must be a very pathetic individual. I feel sorry for you. At a time when we in Israel are suffering and are down you choose to kick us in the groin. pearl

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 17147 73 8_RE>Yuval14_Steve Schreier13_steve@ats.org24_17 Oct 00 18:03:51 -0500590_iso-8859-1 RE>Yuval 10/17/2000 I am not crazy about labeling people in terms as Pearl does here, but I do agree that the idea of CONSTANTLY Attacking (using terms like "fascistic" as he did in one of his earlier e-mails) sheds very little light, a great deal of heat and absolutely no consolation or support to those who need it most. So, Yuval, who I've only heard from directly once and have never met, might I suggest, without using Pearl's adjectives or characterizations, that you cool it, and spare us your vituperative charges, and distorted analyses. Why don't we just cool it [...] 17221 16 8_RE>Yuval0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com29_Tue, 17 Oct 2000 19:09:02 EDT384_US-ASCII I don't feel sorry for you. I don't feel sorry for Pearl either. I don't give a little ca-ca about Kever Rachel either. I do think you use the term fascist a bit too much.

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 17238 42 16_Re: Kever Rachel0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Tue, 17 Oct 2000 23:30:51 EDT546_US-ASCII Dear Yuval- and chevre ( especially Steve- Hiya!) (I haven't been so verbose in a few months!) Oy! It seems that we cannot be tolerant of other people's opinions. Let me throw this idea out to you. As Jews, we have had Jerusalem as the spiritual center of our prayers and history ever since we got that piece of land. There is "Yerushalayim shel ma'alah'" and "Yerushalayim shel matah"- the spiritual and the physical. But just tell my son Avi that Jerusalem is just a piece of land and you might get a punch in the nose. I have to [...] 17281 19 42_Re: "Last Night I had the Strangest Dream"0_13_SC523@aol.com29_Wed, 18 Oct 2000 00:48:43 EDT347_US-ASCII Suz,

That's an acid trip dream if ever I heard one. Is this what the thwarted peace process is doing to all of us?

Aliya

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 17301 49 26_Re: good can come from bad0_13_SC523@aol.com29_Wed, 18 Oct 2000 01:54:29 EDT494_US-ASCII Ellen,

I do not live in Israel now, but, even when I did, the hatred expressed by "frum Yidden" of secular Jews was growing. In those days the theocracy was already growing so strong that secularists were made to feel uncomfortable - and it's gotten much much worse. If you would try to understand for just one minute how vehemently the ultra-Orthodox in Israel express that Israel belongs only to them, you would think that Palestinian territoriality pales by comparison. [...] 17351 86 26_Re: good can come from bad12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Wed, 18 Oct 2000 14:34:18 +0200559_us-ascii

Pearl wrote "I guess we have to be happy that what happened happened now before we signed away our future with Arafat. Now, it seems quite sure that at least Barak will not agree to take in the 100,000 Arab refugees he had agreed to previously."

No Pearl some things are really bad! Not at "all what happens happens for the best and that there is a reason for all that happens:" For instance, the destruction of the temple and the exile, the crusades, pogroms, (oh what the hell, He was on a roll) throw in the holocaust for good [...] 17438 15 42_Re: "Last Night I had the Strangest Dream"0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Wed, 18 Oct 2000 13:02:53 EDT283_ISO-8859-1 Dear Aliya- The only acid I had was acetylsalicilic (aspirin),,,,sue

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 17454 144 61_(Fwd) Friday sermon in the Zayed bin Sultan Aal Nahyan Mosque0_24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Wed, 18 Oct 2000 22:05:13 +0200 17599 199 29_(Fwd) My Letter to the editor0_24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Wed, 18 Oct 2000 22:05:14 +0200 17799 82 33_answer to Aliyah's/Ellen's letter0_24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Wed, 18 Oct 2000 22:05:14 +0200576_US-ASCII The synagogue in Ramot was NOT burnt: I was in there with Yehuda Wachsman to show our identification with the synagogue only a few days later. What happened there was a newly religious sephardi tried to burn it but succeeded in burning a few chairs and that was about it. That does not take away from the seriousness of what he did, but it is important to know that orthodox Jews condemned the attempted arson and that that synagogue lives peacefully on a street with two other orthodox synagogues. I live only three blocks away from the conservative temple and [...] 17882 154 57_(Fwd) Re: Fw: the best response to events I've seen (fwd)0_24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Wed, 18 Oct 2000 22:05:14 +0200401_US-ASCII I send you this because it allows us to put things in perspective and such viewpoints may not be available from media abroad.

------- Forwarded message follows ------- Date sent: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 02:32:06 +0200 From: "Rebecca Pilant" To: Informal Aliyah discussion group Subject: Re: Fw: the best response to events I've seen (fwd) [...] 18037 500 57_Forwarded item from an Arab correspondent : A must read!!0_18_Judithb253@aol.com29_Wed, 18 Oct 2000 16:08:20 EDT17_US-ASCII

18538 15 12_I apologize!0_18_Judithb253@aol.com29_Wed, 18 Oct 2000 16:11:15 EDT290_US-ASCII I didn't know someone else had already sent this to Habonet. I am sorry! judy

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 18554 365 40_Fwd: HUMOR: The Real Presidential Debate0_12_SHX2@aol.com29_Thu, 19 Oct 2000 18:17:59 EDT563_US-ASCII

In a message dated 10/19/00 5:49:43 PM, AnneFHoff@aol.com writes:

<< > > > Given that the US Presidential election is taking place in less than a > > month, I thought you would enjoy seeing an actual transcript of the > > second debate....... > > > > Jim Lehrer: > > Welcome to the second presidential debate between Vice President Al Gore > > and Gov. George W. Bush. The candidates have agreed on these rules: I > > will ask a question. The candidate will ignore the question and deliver > > rehearsed remarks designed to appeal to [...] 18920 188 21_[Fwd: Abington notes]16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Fri, 20 Oct 2000 10:20:28 -0400682_us-ascii Yesterday the Israel Policy Forum sponsored a national teleconference with guest Edward Abington. Abington is the former US Consul General in Jerusalem (east & west.) The Jerusalem Consulate reports directly to the State Department in Washington, not through the US Embassy in Tel-Aviv. This made Abington de facto US ambassador to the Palestinians. Abington is now a partner in a Washington consulting firm, Bannerman Associates, where he serves as Washington representative for the Palestinian Authority. In that role he advocates on their behalf to Congress & the Administration, briefs the press corps and think-tank specialists, and (ostensibly) reflects back to [...] 19109 23 39_A voice of sanity and good will - IPCRI12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Fri, 20 Oct 2000 20:53:22 +0200567_us-ascii haverim/ot The initials stand for Israel/Palestine Center for Research and Information. I want to reccomend their newsletter. Balanced, af al pi chen pro-peace. I'm opposed to loooooong fwd that clog up habonet so I'm giving their internet web site and their email

Shabbat Shalom

Amnon Hadary

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 19133 22 43_RE: A voice of sanity and good will - IPCRI12_Brian Cooper21_BCooper@descartes.com31_Fri, 20 Oct 2000 15:19:41 -0400524_iso-8859-1 > I'm opposed to loooooong fwd that clog up habonet so > I'm giving their internet web site > and their email >

Kol HaKavod Amnon! Great "tochen", and the *best* way to disseminate it (i.e., link rather than forward). Thanks!

Shabbat Shalom, brian

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 19156 22 22_Another peaceful post!0_21_BCooper@descartes.com31_Fri, 20 Oct 2000 15:38:03 -0400438_iso-8859-1 >From Batel Libes, who was not able to post to habonet from her work computer:

Batel says this came from Donna Malmud, a graduate of Tavor and MB '72.







--brian

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 19179 102 0_12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Sat, 21 Oct 2000 16:28:20 +0200473_us-ascii Haverot/im Yesterday was the "shloshim" of Y. Amichai. The TV was replete with concerts of his poems set to music and talk shows But in the forefront of the audiences mind were the recent troubles in our divided land.





LOVE OF THE LAND ~

And the land is divided into districts of memory and provinces of hope, And its inhabitants blend with each other As people returning from a wedding Merge with those returning from a funeral. [...] 19282 157 37_(Fwd) Fw: At least the Military knows0_24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Sun, 22 Oct 2000 00:14:05 +0200290_US-ASCII Thought this may be of some interest. It is good to know that we are not alone in these terrible times and that there is support for Israel from people who understand and care. Does anyone know if this letter had any echo in U.S.A. or have you seen it anywhere in the media?? [...] 19440 167 18_friends like these11_Phil Safier17_psafier@elixa.com31_Sun, 22 Oct 2000 01:49:51 -0600373_us-ascii If the list of signers doesn't tell you all you need to know, you ain't paying attention. Can you say "client state?"

Sure Pearl, these people understand and care, only not about what you think they care about. When they say "our democratic and humanitarian values," it rings terribly false. But then, I guess where you stand depends on where you sit. [...] 19608 20 35_re: friends like these, Phil Safier11_batya fromm18_fromm@inter.net.il31_Sun, 22 Oct 2000 11:20:56 +0200383_us-ascii Apparently Phil Safier is upset that Israel has some friends in America, especially those who appreciate our values. What the hell has the letter he is referring to have anything to do with oil stickers on cars during the Gulf War? I have the impression that Phil is waiting for "a real Yom Kippur", while sitting comfortably in his armchair in America. Menachem Fromm [...] 19629 24 35_Re: friends like these, Phil Safier11_Noam Stopak26_n.stopak@scienceserver.com31_Sun, 22 Oct 2000 07:48:46 -0400579_us-ascii Menachem,

I'm glad that Israel has friends in the US, and I don't think Phil is saying that he isn't either.

I think Phil's point is that Americans' commitment to "values" is often swayed by their wallets and when push comes to shove, they'd rather be able to drive their SUVs than put their troops where their mouth is. When I listen to George W. Bush talk about United States strategic interests I hear oil, not values. And as I read such supposedly liberal papers as the New York Times and Washington Post I see the Palestinians making progress on [...] 19654 58 41_Re: Fwd) Fwd: As Least the Military Knows11_Judy Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Sun, 22 Oct 2000 08:40:41 -0400326_us-ascii Dear Pearl-

This 'letter' is the text of a JINSA ad that appeared in the Washington Post and the NY Times. It may have appeared in other places. This is a popular technique of interest groups and these 'letters' are never published as letters to the editor. They are essentially political advertisements. [...] 19713 31 23_All the little children7_Ephraim14_cbma@erols.com31_Sat, 21 Oct 2000 18:02:26 +0000619_us-ascii Susie

Yes, it is simplistic and, I think, nowhere near a universal truth. When my sons were little, our needs weren't as great and I had the luxury of not working outside the home. Unlike the other mothers in the neighborhood, I had the time to watch them and their friends closely. In any child's playgroup or gan, you see it all - agressors, passive ones, manipulators, followers, deep thinkers, "light thinkers", well adjusted ones, totally dysfunctional ones, fighters, peacemakers. I could see very clearly watching my children play how the world is made of so many different thinking adults. [...] 19745 49 18_Introducing myself16_richard jacobson21_rikardiko@hotmail.com29_Mon, 23 Oct 2000 13:05:39 CDT549_- Dear People:

I am Richard Jacobson, a new participant in Habonet. I was active in Habonim in the early sixties in New York (and at the Midwest summer camp, and also Galil and Red Hook), and I was on the 11th Workshop (at Gesher Haziv). (I was "Osere")

I have been out of touch for quite some time. I have a bunch of degrees from various universities, and taught comparative literature at the University of Wisconsin for a few years--during the end of which I got a law degree and I have been doing law in Madison since 1983. My [...] 19795 238 16_more from Israel14_Orit Chicherio16_oritil@yahoo.com37_Mon, 23 Oct 2000 17:40:42 -0700 (PDT)298_us-ascii A friend of a friend, the wife of the right hand to the mayor of Jerusalem. She has a unique perspective on world's events, and her weekly journal is a reflection of that. This week, though, she has asked to distribute her mailing. We can all get the true picture from her writing... [...] 20034 18 22_Re: Introducing myself0_13_SC523@aol.com29_Tue, 24 Oct 2000 00:49:20 EDT330_US-ASCII "Ozer bozer!" - you were our madrich at Tavor in 1965!

(Now I'll write you offline)

Aliya Cheskis-Cotel

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 20053 184 14_Poetry and War12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Mon, 23 Oct 2000 23:36:58 +0200418_iso-8859-1 Haverim/ot There is shooting from Beit G'allah at Gilo, two hills away from where we live. It's been going on for two nights now. The IDF returns fire. Many Gilo residents complain - this can't go on. They are wrong. It can go on a long time because we have come back to our moledet fully intending to stay. We and they will have to find ways that the homecoming can be accomplished without bloodshed. [...] 20238 90 22_A "Few" relevant sites11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org31_Tue, 24 Oct 2000 21:58:52 -0500688_us-ascii







Shalom, Enclosed pleas find a list of Web Sites relevant to the current situation in the Middle East. Please forward it to whoever you think will find interest in it. Regards, Nir



1. Israel & the Palestinians: The Test of Leadership http://www.jajz-ed.org.il/actual/conflict/oct2000.html 2. Israel & the Palestinians: hadracha guidance, questions http://www.jajz-ed.org.il/actual/conflict/hadracha.html 3. Discussion Forum for above units: http://www.jajz-ed.org.il/forums/Thread.cfm?CFApp=17&Thread_ID=588&mc=1 [...] 20329 17 22_Re: Introducing myself0_18_Green88888@aol.com29_Wed, 25 Oct 2000 00:15:02 EDT426_US-ASCII Are you the Ozer who was from the Bronx (Bet Miriam) ? If so, I remember listening to you during many great conversations at Bickfords or an ice cream parlor we called "dirty fingers" after Habonim meetings! Donna

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 20347 19 10_a question0_15_DebALev@aol.com29_Wed, 25 Oct 2000 00:52:09 EDT332_US-ASCII Does anyone know of a place on the web where I could get a GOOD, detailed map of Jerusalem?

Thanks

Debbie

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 20367 21 9_Diversion0_13_SC523@aol.com29_Wed, 25 Oct 2000 03:15:51 EDT339_US-ASCII So here's a simple question totally on a different track than the political focus we've been on lately:

Does anyone have an interesting recipe for a leftover etrog other than marmalade? (I once made a whole jar of etrog marmalade and noone ate it) - I had in mind candied etrog slices or some wonderful baked dessert. [...] 20389 20 38_Shabbaton kibbutz Lotan: here we come!0_24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Tue, 24 Oct 2000 23:40:12 +0200331_US-ASCII Another reminder to tell your friends not on Habonet to register for the exciting Shabbaton which will be held in Kibbutz Lotan from November 16 to November 18. All those wishing to register please write Michael Livni at ml-lotan@zahav.net.il Looking forward to the desert sunrise.... pearl skolnik and Michael Livni [...] 20410 181 20_Ramallah photographs16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Wed, 25 Oct 2000 09:34:47 -0400534_us-ascii Telegraph Sunday 15 October 2000 http://www.telegraph.co.uk

MARK SEAGER, 29, a British photographer, was working on a pictorial study of Palestinian refugees when he found himself caught up in the horrific lynching of two Israeli army reservists in Ramallah. The only journalist to witness the beating, as he tried to take the photograph that would have made his fortune, the crowd turned on him with such hatred, destroying his camera, that he feared for his own life. This is his exclusive, eyewitness account: [...] 20592 42 14_RE: a question11_Dani Lamdan24_shaliach@habonimdror.org31_Wed, 25 Oct 2000 10:22:22 -0400645_iso-8859-1 Shalom Debbie I think you can get it in these site ou are currently subscribed to vjnews as: shaliach@habonimdror.org To unsubscribe click on the following link: mailto:leave-vjnews-968I@lists.virtualjerusalem.com AOL users click here to unsubscribe: mailto:leave-vjne ws-968I@lists.virtualjerusalem.com VJ News Special Edition October 24th, 2000

-----Original Message----- From: owner-habonet@shamash.org [mailto:owner-habonet@shamash.org]On Behalf Of DebALev@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2000 12:52 AM To: habonet@shamash.org Subject: a question [...] 20635 23 22_Re: Introducing myself16_richard jacobson21_rikardiko@hotmail.com29_Wed, 25 Oct 2000 10:05:57 CDT535_- Yes. I was.

And I'd love to hear from you.



Richard ("Ozer") _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com.

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 20659 44 14_Re: a question0_15_DebALev@aol.com29_Wed, 25 Oct 2000 14:53:14 EDT550_US-ASCII In a message dated 10/25/00 7:22:18 AM Pacific Daylight Time, shaliach@habonimdror.org writes:

> Shalom Debbie > I think you can get it in these site > ou are currently subscribed to vjnews as: shaliach@habonimdror.org > To unsubscribe click on the following link: > mailto:leave-vjnews-968I@lists.virtualjerusalem.com > AOL users click here to unsubscribe: > mailto:leave-vjne > ws-968I@lists.virtualjerusalem.com > VJ News Special Edition > October 24th, 2000 [...] 20704 32 16_Traced to the US0_15_DebALev@aol.com29_Wed, 25 Oct 2000 15:50:03 EDT595_US-ASCII JERUSALEM, Oct 25, 2000 (Reuters) - A coordinated attack by thousands of pro-Palestinian Internet users on Wednesday blocked access to the website of Israel"s Foreign Ministry, a ministry official said. "The site itself was not damaged, but at the moment, no one can access it," Uri Noy, head of the ministry"s information department, told Army Radio. "It was an attempt to wipe us off the Internet by thousands of visitors who tried to get into the site simultaneously...You can compare it to thousands of people trying to go through a narrow door at the same time -- in the end, [...] 20737 20 14_Re: a question13_Yuval Warshai16_warshais@tir.com31_Wed, 25 Oct 2000 16:01:42 -0400350_iso-8859-1 > Have any of you heard of an organization called Bat Shalom?

Here's their website: http://www.batshalom.org/

___ |Y| ^^^

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 20758 123 22_Words from Elie Wiesel11_Batel Libes25_batel_libes@earthlink.net31_Wed, 25 Oct 2000 19:45:55 -0700566_us-ascii

> > Elie Wiesel spoke at the NYC Israel rally last week > > and his words were > > powerful. His office sent out the following > > transcript: > > >--------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > "We have gathered here to affirm our solidarity with > > Israel. We are outraged > > by the hypocritical vote in the Security Council, > > which did not condemn > > Palestinian excessive reactions but condemned > > Israel's response to them. We > > stand by Israel whose present struggle was imposed > > upon her by the > > [...] 20882 17 14_Re: a question0_13_SC523@aol.com29_Thu, 26 Oct 2000 02:52:52 EDT474_US-ASCII Our daughter, Orli, is seeking an internship with Bat Shalom in addition to her studies at Hebrew University. She ways it is an impressive organizatin of Jewish and Palestian women who are working together to advance (restore, in this case) the cause for peace.

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 20900 119 48_(Fwd) Arutz Sheva & One Jerusalem Call to Action0_24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Thu, 26 Oct 2000 12:48:01 +0200401_US-ASCII There is important info here to follow up on. Each one in Israel is responsible for all of Israel: Kol Yisrael arevim zeh l'zeh... ------- Forwarded message follows ------- Date sent: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 12:42:12 +0200 To: arutz-7@IsraelNationalNews.com From: Arutz-7 Editor Subject: Arutz Sheva & One Jerusalem Call to Action Send reply to: netnews@a7.org [...] 21020 196 14_War Zone: Gilo8_guttbass25_guttbass@netvision.net.il31_Thu, 26 Oct 2000 12:50:55 +0200575_iso-8859-8-i It seems I am the only Habonet representative in Gilo! The following is something I wrote at the request of our Rabbi. Since then we had one quiet night, and then another night of shooting. The end isn't in sight. The VIPs are coming in droves.

War Zone: Gilo

The southeastern suburb of Jerusalem where we live finally hit the big Times - the New York Times. The picture of tanks in Gilo went around the world, arousing queries and worries among friends and relations. The tanks quietly sat here for a few weeks while pot shots from Beit Jala [...] 21217 115 15_Nader on Israel16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Thu, 26 Oct 2000 18:03:58 -0400410_iso-8859-1 The following article appeared in The New York Jewish Week, issue of October 27, 2000 / 21 Tishrei 5761

letters-to-the-editor can be sent to: Gary@JewishWeek.org -----------------------------

HEADLINE: Nader Blasts Israel By: James D. Besser, Washington Correspondent SUBHEAD: Green Party candidate, seen as Gore spoiler, says Palestinians ‘have a lot of reasons for their rage.’ [...] 21333 136 44_(Fwd) Accurate Jewish News and History Sites0_24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Fri, 27 Oct 2000 00:35:21 +0200 21470 19 12_Email change12_Micah Garber24_76673.703@compuserve.com31_Thu, 26 Oct 2000 23:09:33 -0400351_ISO-8859-1 Hi. We are changing our email to Mgarber@mediaone.net. Please note the change.

Thanks, Micah, Michal, Ron, Dafna, and Donna Garber

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org ----------------------- 21490 27 14_Re: a question0_14_Vered4@aol.com29_Fri, 27 Oct 2000 00:00:58 EDT375_US-ASCII In a message dated 10/26/2000 2:53:47 AM Eastern Daylight Time, SC523@aol.com writes:

<< Our daughter, Orli, is seeking an internship with Bat Shalom in addition to her studies at Hebrew University. She ways it is an impressive organizatin of Jewish and Palestian women who are working together to advance (restore, in this case) the cause for peace. >> [...] 21518 17 10_from Varda0_14_Vered4@aol.com29_Fri, 27 Oct 2000 00:01:58 EDT327_US-ASCII Please excuse my error in sending a personal e-mail to my sister to Habonet by mistake.

Varda Cheskis Sauer

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 21536 153 39_Fw: OFF TOPIC: missile-firing submarine13_Pearl Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Fri, 27 Oct 2000 13:31:12 +0200650_windows-1255

----- Original Message ----- From: Lily White To: Informal Aliyah discussion group Sent: Friday, October 27, 2000 10:20 AM Subject: OFF TOPIC: missile-firing submarine



> i haven't seen this anywhere local. has anyone seen this report in the > Israeli press/media? > > October 27, 2000 > > > Israel readies for spread of hostilities in Mideast > By Ben Barber > THE WASHINGTON TIMES > > > Israel has taken possession of a missile-firing submarine from Germany, > moved its forces to a high alert status and canceled plans to reduce the > serving time of draftees [...] 21690 42 90_Fw: [WS] Hamas interview on NPR says that Jews welcome in Jerusalem ifthey live as Muslims13_Pearl Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Fri, 27 Oct 2000 13:37:56 +0200631_iso-8859-1

----- Original Message ----- From: Shoshanna Walker To: Endtimes Sent: Friday, October 27, 2000 1:53 AM Subject: [WS] Hamas interview on NPR says that Jews welcome in Jerusalem ifthey live as Muslims



> Just thought you should know.... > > Oct 26 > > >From: alm@znet.com > > > >In an interview on Fresh Air on NPR (National Public Radio) this > >afternoon an Hamas spokesman > >said that Israel should not exist as a state. He said that Jews should > >live as Muslims in an Islamic state and, in that case, they would be > >welcome [...] 21733 23 45_Changing from digest form to individual email17_Martin J. Goodman19_mgoodman@012.net.il31_Fri, 27 Oct 2000 11:28:18 +0200461_Windows-1252 The command for converting from individual email format to digest format is

"set habonet mail digest"

Can anyone tell me how to revert from digest format to individual email format?

Marty Goodman mgoodman@012.net.il



------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 21757 27 22_Re:To Amnon for Advice0_17_JackNusan@aol.com29_Fri, 27 Oct 2000 14:36:43 EDT540_US-ASCII To Amnon Hadary, my old madrich, to whom I go to for sustenance and wisdom , especially in these dark days, darker than I have ever seen. What shall we do, madrich? I read a quote in the Boston Globe today in a story by Globe correspondent Dan Ephron. The quote was from a Tel Aviv women, Yael Dekel, a peacenik, standing in the deserted drizzle of Rabin Square and she said--quote" Something in the violence this time has killed my spirit to rally . I'm a member of the peace camp. but I'm not sure what that means anymore." [...] 21785 19 13_Re: Diversion0_17_JackNusan@aol.com29_Fri, 27 Oct 2000 15:08:21 EDT415_US-ASCII I use it for tea, or in tea, but your recipes sound good--they are tart--and by the way--i'm going to be at the Hillary Headquarters election day and staying at the Habitat Hotel on 130 E. 57th Street for the victory. Maybe I'll see some Habonim chevreh there that night, election eve? Leave message at Hotel or With Jessica Ashenberg at the Hillary Headquarters (212) 239-2000 x250. .--Jackie Porter [...] 21805 63 43_If the Left Will Lead - The Center Can Hold12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Fri, 27 Oct 2000 23:16:15 +0200563_us-ascii Haverot/im When Aliya and I were considerably younger (I was, alas, older than her even then,)we studied English lit together at the Hebrew U. One of the poets we confronted there was that gifted Irish mystic poet of the occult, W.B. Yeats. At the time the only H.U. campus was the new one at Giva'at Ram in West Jerusalem near the Israel Museum and the Knesset. The old campus with the Hadassah hospital on Mt. Scopus were tourist sites about as relevant to our lives as the model of the Second Temple at the Holyland Hotel. Bethlehem, in the West [...] 21869 297 21_Fw: Ask Aish #33-20008_J Gordon20_mountain@neworld.net31_Fri, 27 Oct 2000 20:36:32 -0700647_iso-8859-1 Please send this to as many people as possibe:

----- Original Message ----- From: Aish.com To: Ask the Rabbi Sent: Friday, October 27, 2000 6:04 AM Subject: Ask Aish #33-2000



> Subscription info at the end of this email. > > Entire ARCHIVES of all Ask the Rabbi > questions and answers: > http://aish.com/rabbi/ATR_viewLinks.asp > > ====================================== > > ASK AISH #33-2000 > > "WHAT CAN I DO TO HELP?" > > > From: Anthony Naturman of Atlanta - > antnatti@yahoo.com > > Thank you for sending me info about the > Israeli Crisis, as well as including [...] 22167 66 19_if prayer worked---11_Judy Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Sat, 28 Oct 2000 00:41:30 -0400538_us-ascii Dear Chevre-

I have received about 15 copies of the Nov 1 prayer idea from various Jewish groups, friends, etc and I would laugh if it weren't so pathetically sad.

After 2000 years of liturgy in which Jews around the world pray for God to make peace in Jerusalem His (sic) Holy City 3 times a day, why would anyone with think that it makes a difference if we all use our cell phones and email to get 12 million Jews to say this prayer at the same minute? Has the guy at Aish been reading "Horton Hears a Who"? [...] 22234 38 25_Re: Fw: Ask Aish #33-20000_18_Rachelbern@aol.com29_Sat, 28 Oct 2000 00:58:00 EDT483_US-ASCII << How is it possible that the world stands by > (literally), and passes comments when they > have never set foot in_________, and > additionally, have no clue as to how or what > life is like, as well as to the ________ of > years this conflict has existed. > > Is there a way that we can educate the > nations as to who we are that they may > realize that it is not war we are after, or > the killings of innocent youth -- but living > peacefully in our ... land. >> [...] 22273 59 19_The End of History?12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Sat, 28 Oct 2000 23:11:14 +0200593_us-ascii Haverim/ot

For nineteen years after Israel gained independence there was a sense that back finally in its small land, the Jewish people had reunited the two modalities of time and space - Jews re-entered both history and geography. Indeed a central tenet of Zionism was the here and the now, the possible and the plow these replaced exilic dreams of banqueting in Gan Eden on the promised mythical leviathan and wild ox. A typical song of the early years of the State was: Our silos are full of grain/ Our barrels brimming wine/ Houses teeming with infants/ What more can [...] 22333 18 11_Query again0_13_SC523@aol.com29_Sun, 29 Oct 2000 02:06:08 EST384_US-ASCII So no recipes from anyone on Habonet for an etrog delectable other than marmalade or jelly??????Still waiting and the etrog's in the refrigerator waiting too.

Aliya

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 22352 19 15_Re: Query again0_15_NYMamma@aol.com29_Sun, 29 Oct 2000 20:05:24 EST395_US-ASCII Dear Aliyah, About 2 wks ago, the Jerwish Sentinel had a recipe for a cake made with the etrog and other citrus. It sounded rather good according to my philosophy of cooking---if you put good ingredients in, the finished product will be good. Unfortunately, I thrrw out the paper. Maybe you could call their office and get the recipe. See you at the camp committee meeting. Marian [...] 22372 34 41_Fw: One website is worth a thousand words8_J Gordon20_mountain@neworld.net31_Sun, 29 Oct 2000 21:09:33 -0800572_iso-8859-1 If the news doesn't, then we must spread the word of what is really going on...

----- Original Message ----- From: Naomi Ragen To: List Member Sent: Saturday, October 28, 2000 4:54 PM Subject: One website is worth a thousand words



> Dear Friends, > > I've just come across a website I'd like to bring to your attention. I > suggest you visit it, and share it with your friends: > > > http://rotter.net/israel > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > [...] 22407 24 10_VIVA SHAS!13_Yuval Warshai16_warshais@tir.com31_Mon, 30 Oct 2000 13:17:20 -0500445_Windows-1252 Viva Rabbi Ovadia Yosef!

Viva Aryeh Deri!

Viva Eli Yishai!

Kol hakavod to them. They apparently (I hope) just saved Israel at this critical hour from the hands of Ariel Sharon and of Gush Emunim. ___ |Y| ^^^

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 22432 92 45_World Movement Statement on the Israel Crisis0_15_NEVETS2@aol.com29_Mon, 30 Oct 2000 21:25:43 EST691_US-ASCII Chevre, Shalom

This statement was just released from the offices of our World Labor Zionist Movement in Jerusalem.

Chaver Steve ===============================================

Jerusalem, 26 October 2000

Attn:

Members of the Movement overseas

Shalom,

In these difficult days for the State of Israel and for the Jewish People in the Diaspora, we praise the identification of all parts of the Jewish People with the State of Israel. Indeed, the State of Israel and the Jewish People have a common destiny, and it is most appropriate to strengthen and fortify the unity of the Jewish People as a whole, without distinction of place [...] 22525 22 22_J Gordon clarification0_13_JujuG@aol.com29_Tue, 31 Oct 2000 01:15:43 EST584_US-ASCII Recently, there have been a number of postings submitted by "J Gordon" mountain@neworld.net. I just want to clarify that apparently there are two Judy Gordons on Habonet. I am the other one and it is disconcerting to be to be associated with these postings since they are of a tone and content that I do not share. For purposes of identification I'm from Chicago, went to Tavor, was on Workshop in 1978-9 and am now living in Wichita, Kansas where I'm the assistant director of the Mid-Kansas Jewish Federation. Anyone passing this way, please look me up. --Judy Gordon [...] 22548 131 49_Fw: Reminder: Stand for Unity for Israel Nov. 1 !8_J Gordon20_mountain@neworld.net31_Tue, 31 Oct 2000 08:17:27 -0800575_iso-8859-1



> ----- Original Message ----- > From: Rabbi Kalman Packouz > To: Rabbi Packouz's ShabbatShalom List > Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2000 6:45 AM > Subject: Reminder: Stand for Unity for Israel Nov. 1 ! > > > > > > Uniting Jews for Peace: What you Can do November 1 > > > > Israel is once again on the brink of war and Jewish people the > > world over are starting to experience terrorism in their own nations, > > as witnessed by synagogue burnings in Syracuse, NY & France > > and the stabbing [...] 22680 105 53_While we were out on a tiyul they stole a march on us12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Tue, 31 Oct 2000 18:44:19 +0200651_us-ascii Haverim/ot In the lines below I attempt to sketch the origins of the idea of GREATER ISRAEL

In September, 1967, barely four months after the stunning Israeli military victory of the Six Day War while most Israelis were still rushing to the West Bank as tourists, visiting sites that had been inaccessible for nineteen years and rubbing their eyes in disbelief at the unexpected territorial gains, 57 others signed a portentous proclamation. It was entitled: Le'maan Eretz Yisrael Ha'shleimah - For Eretz Yisrael in its Entirety. Among the carefully selected signatories were 19 authors, seven academics, five army officers, seven [...] 22786 35 36_JNF College Activists Department job0_15_NEVETS2@aol.com29_Tue, 31 Oct 2000 14:48:49 EST861_US-ASCII Another dynomite position for an ex-Habonimnik. We need moles in every major Jewish organization

Chaver Steve =======================================================



Northeast Campus Coordinator, Jewish National Fund College Activists Department

JNF College Activists Department currently has a professional Campus Coordinator position available for recent college graduates based out of the National Manhattan Office. This position entails working with on-campus organizations in the Northeast, establishing a fund-raising base, having direct contact with students and faculty at colleges and universities, and coordinating student conferences. Candidates must have superb organizational and interpersonal skills. Knowledge of Israel and prior fundraising experience with a non-profit organization working with young [...] 22822 51 13_Thanking SHAS17_Martin J. Goodman19_mgoodman@012.net.il31_Tue, 31 Oct 2000 22:46:28 +0200541_windows-1255 31 October 2000

In Habonet Digest 1701, Yuval Warshai writes, "" Viva Rabbi Ovadia Yosef! Viva Aryeh Deri! Viva Eli Yishai! Kol hakavod to them. They apparently (I hope) just saved Israel at this critical hour from the hands of Ariel Sharon and of Gush Emunim. ""

For the record, SHAS has agreed that for the next 30 days it will not join efforts to topple Barak's government. However, SHAS has not agreed to enter into a coalition government nor has it pledged to vote for any legislation on Barak's behalf. [...] 22874 266 26_Stand for UNity Nov. 1 st.15_Marian L Luchau17_DLuchau@erols.com31_Tue, 31 Oct 2000 18:20:18 -0500535_us-ascii



> Uniting Jews for Peace: > What you Can do November 1 > > Israel is once again on the brink of war and Jewish people the world over > are > starting to experience terrorism in their own nations, as witnessed by > synagogue burnings in Syracuse, NY & France and the stabbing of a Jewish > teenager on a London bus, to mention only a few of many recent events. > > It no longer matters whether you were for or against Oslo because when the > guns are firing on Gilo, the bullets do not distinguish between [...] 23141 16 23_For New York Haboneters0_13_VFINK@aol.com29_Tue, 31 Oct 2000 20:15:59 EST403_US-ASCII Hasia Diner (Tavar/Midwest 1958-1962, Milwaukee) is having a book signing for her new book Lower Eastside Memories at Border's Books, 576 2d Ave (32d Street), New York on November 15 at 7PM.

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 23158 38 14_REView Habonet8_kanter1822_kanter18@email.msn.com31_Tue, 31 Oct 2000 20:45:00 -060019_iso-8859-1

23197 24 38_General Assembly of the UJC in Chicago0_14_KBob24@aol.com29_Tue, 31 Oct 2000 23:50:30 EST536_US-ASCII The Habonim Dror Foundation is organizing a gathering of Habonim Alumni who will be attending the GA in Chicago. We will get together late Monday night, November 13, in the Hyatt to shmooze a bit, hang out and see what we can do to further develop the efforts of the HDF in support of Habonim Dror. If you plan on attending, please send an email to me so we can supply you with details of the get together. If you know of people who are attending, please forward them this email or give them my phone number 516-935-4724. [...]