1 SHAMASH.ORG /usr/www/wwwhc/listserv/archives/habonet July 2000 2 88 31_Classic Greek and Jewish Values17_Martin J. Goodman19_mgoodman@012.net.il30_Sat, 1 Jul 2000 13:28:19 +0200431_windows-1255 1 July 2000

Amnon's recent posting about the "cherishment" values of the ancient Greeks is somewhat perplexing to me.

When I think of a classic Greeks, I think of Clytemnestra murdering her husband King Agamemnon in the bathtub after his triumphal return from the Trojan War; I think of Ulysses cunningly murdering all of his wife's suitors when he finally arrives home after 20 years of wandering. [...] 91 26 35_Re: Classic Greek and Jewish Values0_16_BERNSARA@aol.com28_Sat, 1 Jul 2000 11:18:52 EDT538_US-ASCII Since you left the discussion of Jewish values pertaining to the treatment of women, I will take this opportunity to add my few words. I will tell you the story of my recent trip to visit a relative in a home for the aged. I did not make this up! I walked in to find a young woman, obviously an orthodox woman, from her dress, her shetl, etc, giving a lecture to the residents of this home. She was telling them about the great respect given to women in the Bible, about how highly women were respected, how important women [...] 118 46 35_Re: Classic Greek and Jewish Values0_15_DebALev@aol.com28_Sat, 1 Jul 2000 11:44:28 EDT317_US-ASCII In a message dated 7/1/00 8:19:31 AM Pacific Daylight Time, BERNSARA@aol.com writes:

> "you know, when you do something for the first time, you do make some > mistakes. You learn from this experience, and you do it better the next > time. Now remember, first God made Adam and then he made Eve." [...] 165 31 20_Yeshivas for Hilonim11_Norman Kane19_normk@earthlink.net31_Sat, 01 Jul 2000 12:52:24 -0700635_us-ascii Debbie,

What ever the reason or excuse the Reform and Conservative movements give the fact remains that they aborgated all religious functions in Israel to the Orthodox. This left Israelis with no alternatives (how many of us would be involved if the only choice was Orthodox?).

The Reform at least started sending the Rabbinical candidtes to Israel after 67 and even sponsored garinim to their kibbutz in the Arava. The Conservatives are very late into the game. Many of the leaders of Habonim also attended synagogue, does that mean the Reform or Conservative movements get credit for encouraging aliyah? [...] 197 18 24_Re: Yeshivas for Hilonim0_15_DebALev@aol.com28_Sat, 1 Jul 2000 17:29:55 EDT396_US-ASCII Norm, you will get no argument from me. You're right... it was for the Conservative and Reform movements to give up as much as it was the Orthodox's to take.

Debbie

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 216 31 16_reply to ephraim0_24_skolnik@netvision.net.il30_Sun, 2 Jul 2000 00:48:12 +0300596_US-ASCII shalom, The reason that consecutive governments accept agreements signed by previous governments is in order to continue the rule of law and to prevent chaos. When governments sign agreements with each other they have to know that even if the government changes the subsequent government will honor agreements made. Netanyahu was not in favor of these agreements but had to make the best of them. His system was to insist on mutuality in order to offset the damage of the Oslo accords. I think most people today realize the wisdom of this approach. The feeling today is that all we [...] 248 13 16_reply to ephraim0_24_skolnik@netvision.net.il30_Sun, 2 Jul 2000 00:48:12 +0300225_US-ASCII

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 262 25 24_Re: Yeshivas For Hilonim0_24_skolnik@netvision.net.il30_Sun, 2 Jul 2000 00:48:12 +0300552_US-ASCII Marty, The poorest of state religious school education still has to give its students more than any conservative and reform school in america. Also, I think that the vast majority of American Jews get no Jewish education whatsoever, and that is one of the reasons their Jewish identity is so unimportant in their lives, leading to mass exit from the Jewish community. American Jewry numbers less Jews today than we had 50 years ago. They didn't all go to Israel. I think you have to compare the whole community not just a sampling. pearl [...] 288 32 24_RE: Yeshivas For Hilonim12_Fine, Sharon14_FineS@MLHS.ORG30_Sat, 1 Jul 2000 18:53:49 -0400607_-



students more than any conservative and reform school in america.> Before I jump all over this statement, could you possibly explain just what you meant by it, as it is a very broad generalization.

education whatsoever> I don't know the statistics, but my own observations are that this is not a correct belief. From what I've seen, the majority get a fairly superficial exposure to Judaism (this, of course, is a totally subjective [...] 321 19 18_Re: Reply to Pearl0_24_skolnik@netvision.net.il30_Sun, 2 Jul 2000 02:55:59 +0300393_US-ASCII Ephraim, When Bibi ran on a ticket accepting the Oslo accords most of the damage had not yet occurred. He tried to prevent the damage by insisting on reciprocity. pearl

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 341 26 35_Re: Classic Greek and Jewish Values0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com28_Sat, 1 Jul 2000 20:38:19 EDT636_US-ASCII In a message dated 7/1/00 3:33:26 AM Pacific Daylight Time, mgoodman@012.net.il writes:

<< Although the Torah required limited kindness to Hebrew slaves, to the best of my knowledge, nowhere in Tanach is there any objection against the institution of slavery itself. >> Dear Marty- While it was probably necessary to have "help" in that agro-paternistic ancient society- -you have to admit that the approach to "slaves" in the Tanach is humanistic and unusual for that time ( witness laws of Shabbat, and the lessons of the Exodus). As for "women's lib"- what about Deborah, Miriam, and my favorite, Judith???? sue [...] 368 16 35_Re: Classic Greek and Jewish Values0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com28_Sat, 1 Jul 2000 21:06:13 EDT425_US-ASCII Slavery itself was a liberal idea at the time people came up with it. Prior to taking prisoners and making them slaves the common practice was to just kill them so slavery was actually a step forward.

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 385 30 35_Re: Classic Greek and Jewish Values13_Michael Livni21_ml-lotan@zahav.net.il31_Sat, 01 Jul 2000 22:11:19 -0700422_- For those who can read Hebrew and are interested I"ll be happy to send material (reprints) on the subject of Greek vs Israel values written by me -- published in "Iggeret L'Chinuch" as my suggestion for inculcating values in Chativat Habeinaim (Jr Hi School) where they teach Greece Rome and about the Maccabees. Send snail mail address. Warning: This is simplistically written material. Michael Livni (Max Langer) [...] 416 71 35_Re: Classic Greek and Jewish Values0_18_Rachelbern@aol.com28_Sun, 2 Jul 2000 04:08:21 EDT449_US-ASCII << As for "women's lib"- what about Deborah, Miriam, and my favorite, Judith????>>

I must have missed the Habonet posting that said that liberated women are given short shrift in the Bible, but that shouldn't be too surprising since biblical scholarship, archaeology, and all other sources tend to agree that during the long period in which the Torah was written and edited, women in most known societies had a pretty raw deal. [...] 488 43 24_Re: Yeshivas For Hilonim17_Martin J. Goodman19_mgoodman@012.net.il30_Sun, 2 Jul 2000 13:21:13 +0200525_iso-8859-1 Shalom Pearl: In your email to me, you wrote, "" The poorest of state religious school education still has to give its students more than any conservative and reform school in america."

This has not been my experience. As a child, I attended the [Conservative] Bnei Israel Synagogue Hebrew school in Washington D.C. Although I failed to learn Hebrew, I [and the rest of the children] did otherwise receive an excellent education in the Jewish heritage: Chumash, Rashi, customs, halachot, history, etc. [...] 532 79 44_Re: Role of Reform and Conservative Judaiasm13_Michael Livni21_ml-lotan@zahav.net.il31_Sun, 02 Jul 2000 23:02:15 -0700538_US-ASCII A comment on the interchange regarding Reform and Conservative Judaism in Israel subsequent to "Yeshivot Chiloniot. It is a complex subject and I am involved up to the eyeballs.

The Conservative movement has an identity problem -- how to be both Halachic and modern. Many hope to be ultimately accepted by the more liberal Orthodox (in short supply around here). To their credit, they have taken educational initiatives such as the Tali stream but it would be difficult to sat that this has really taken off--as yet. [...] 612 126 11_Monthly FAQ12_Jennifer Kay19_kay@elvis.rowan.edu31_Mon, 03 Jul 2000 02:32:03 -0400421_- Actually-from:BCooper@descartes.com

Hi Chevre,

Here is a reminder of the "essential" commands that you can use to configure your subscription to Habonet. I will post this monthly from now on. Please note -- The address for commands is: listproc@shamash.org whereas the address for posts to the list is: habonet@shamash.org If you need any help with any of it, send me an email: BCooper@descartes.com [...] 739 21 14_music festival0_12_SHX2@aol.com28_Mon, 3 Jul 2000 11:33:26 EDT298_US-ASCII Dear Habonetters,

To any and all of you who live in Boulder and environs, I am playing my guitar at the Annual Rocky Mountain Ragtime Festival July 13-16. For info, tix, etc., phone number is: 303 499-9918. If you do come to a concert, come on up and introduce yourself after. [...] 761 186 21_Classic Jewish Values12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Mon, 03 Jul 2000 22:17:03 +0200591_us-ascii

Haverim/ot Well, since this is the second and shorter installment of Bialik's essay on Jewish Dualism I won't send it as an attachment because some people don't feel safe opening attachments from unknown sources :) also, maybe it would be more correct to call it Re: Jewish Behavior rather than Values. In this part Bialik begins with zitzit t'filin, and the law of shatnez goes on to laws of ownership, notions of covenant and comes at the denouement to what I called an O'henry ending. Is Zionism ultimately like the words of the song "A woman is a sometimes thing?" [...] 948 18 24_RE: Yeshivas For Hilonim0_24_skolnik@netvision.net.il30_Mon, 3 Jul 2000 23:07:48 +0300363_US-ASCII sharon, from all I have read the majority of Jewish children in the U.S. do not go to any Jewish school and get no Jewish education. pearl

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 967 25 24_RE: Yeshivas For Hilonim12_Fine, Sharon14_FineS@MLHS.ORG30_Mon, 3 Jul 2000 16:25:31 -0400582_iso-8859-1 from all I have read the majority of Jewish children in the U.S. do not go to any Jewish school and get no Jewish education. pearl

Written by whom? Someone with an axe to grind, or an impartial observer? Even in the mixed marriages amongst my friends and aquaintances, most of the kids have some degree of formal Jewish education and all are exposed to Jewish customs and traditions. Then again, I live near an urban center, with a large Jewish community. It may be different in 'the sticks'. Does anyone know any reliable source for these statistics? By the [...] 993 23 24_Re: Yeshivas For Hilonim0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com28_Mon, 3 Jul 2000 19:03:36 EDT422_US-ASCII In a message dated 7/3/00 4:05:15 PM Eastern Daylight Time, skolnik@netvision.net.il writes:

> sharon, > from all I have read the majority of Jewish children in the U.S. do > not go to any Jewish school and get no Jewish education. > pearl I did not go to any Jewish school at all, nor Hebrew school, but I did go to Habonim and learned all there was to know about Judaism and social justice to boot. [...] 1017 21 24_Re: Yeshivas For Hilonim0_15_DebALev@aol.com24_Mon Jul 03 19:20:48 2000383_US-ASCII Richardsmith said:

"learned all there was to know about Judaism and social justice to boot."



I sure hope you were kidding!

Debbie

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 1039 19 24_Re: Yeshivas For Hilonim0_15_Emabear@aol.com28_Mon, 3 Jul 2000 20:38:11 EDT422_US-ASCII The percentage rate for affiliation for American Jews, according to Jewish Federation reports, is approximately 9%. That is a hard number to swallow, especially when it includes families that are affiliated many ways, i.e., synagogue, day school, young groups, Jewish organizations. Using that number we can assume that a very small percentage of American Jewish children attend any kind of Jewish training. [...] 1059 33 24_Re: Yeshivas For Hilonim0_15_DebALev@aol.com28_Mon, 3 Jul 2000 21:35:08 EDT525_US-ASCII In a message dated 7/3/00 5:39:10 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Emabear@aol.com writes:

> The percentage rate for affiliation for American Jews, according to Jewish > Federation reports, is approximately 9%. That is a hard number to swallow, > especially when it includes families that are affiliated many ways, i.e., > synagogue, day school, young groups, Jewish organizations. > Using that number we can assume that a very small percentage of American > Jewish children attend any kind of Jewish training. [...] 1093 26 35_Re: Classic Greek and Jewish Values0_18_Green88888@aol.com28_Mon, 3 Jul 2000 22:51:02 EDT579_US-ASCII Don't forget Rachav! Recently I attended a women's learning day in New York at the Jewish Renaisance Center. The group is primarily Orthodox, but accepts women at all levels and beliefs. One of the sessions I attended was all about Rachav - the prostitute that helped the two spies that entered Jericho (Joshua and Calev I believe) Anyhow, she not only saved them from the Cananites, at great personal risk, but later begged the spies to save her family when the Jews came back to conquer the city. Instead of just saying that they would not only not worship idols [...] 1120 29 18_Re: letter to Mark0_13_SC523@aol.com28_Tue, 4 Jul 2000 04:17:49 EDT563_US-ASCII

In a message dated 6/17/0 1:02:55 PM, you wrote:

>Larwence > >Kohlberg is my hero as a psychologist and his study of moral development >has > >guided much of what I do intellectually.



Sam,

I just got around to reading this back email. I am also a great Kohlberg fan. I have quoted his study of moral behavior on the kibbutz many times - taking avaryanim from schunat hatikva and giving them mishpachot m'amtizim, etc. - that was his, wasn't it? Glad to know that he has been an inspiration for you r work, Aliya [...] 1150 14 18_Re: music festival0_13_SC523@aol.com28_Tue, 4 Jul 2000 04:52:35 EDT251_US-ASCII y'asher koach, Hancoff!ACC

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 1165 34 24_Re: Yeshivas for Hilonim0_18_Judithb253@aol.com28_Tue, 4 Jul 2000 12:44:16 EDT567_US-ASCII I just read Norm's report of Conservative Judaism's view of Zionism on the West Coast - and we certainly do live in a different country back here in the old East. In homes, schools (both day schools and afternoon schools, and many many community activities - Israel has - since WAY before 1948, been a critical component of the inner life of the Jewish community. I guess I shouldn't generalize totally - maybe my parents lived in a special part of the community - but so did the parents of friends, relatives, school mates, etc. A local woman who grew [...] 1200 27 24_Re: Yeshivas For Hilonim11_Mark Hammel18_mhammel@ulster.net31_Tue, 04 Jul 2000 14:06:04 -0400577_us-ascii Thank you so much for raising the discussion to the level of data rather than anecdotal opinion.

At 08:38 PM 7/3/2000 EDT, you wrote: >The percentage rate for affiliation for American Jews, according to Jewish >Federation reports, is approximately 9%. That is a hard number to swallow, >especially when it includes families that are affiliated many ways, i.e., >synagogue, day school, young groups, Jewish organizations. >Using that number we can assume that a very small percentage of American >Jewish children attend any kind of Jewish training. > > > > [...] 1228 22 29_Re: Checks & Balances 6.27.000_15_DebALev@aol.com24_Tue Jul 04 14:35:47 2000571_US-ASCII Mark said:

"Thank you so much for raising the discussion to the level of data rather than anecdotal opinion."

Actually, Mark, we don't know WHAT it is, as I tried to say in my previous response to this. We don't know who did the study (who the UJF hired or if they did it themselves), what the methodology was, how many people were in the study, were the subjects self-selective or not, etc etc. We also don't know what they mean by "affiliation." Is it shul membership? Is one "affiliated" if one belongs to Hadassah but nothing else? If one [...] 1251 15 24_Re: Yeshivas For Hilonim0_15_Emabear@aol.com28_Wed, 5 Jul 2000 02:22:55 EDT353_US-ASCII I had the same reaction about the figures. They were relealsed with the 1990 demographic study of the American Jewish Community.

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 1267 38 29_Re: Checks & Balances 6.27.0011_Mark Hammel18_mhammel@ulster.net31_Wed, 05 Jul 2000 06:37:15 -0400541_us-ascii I agree that we can always discuss the threats to the validity of research. But that again is a much better basis for a discussion.

At , you wrote: >Mark said: > >"Thank you so much for raising the discussion to the level of data rather >than anecdotal opinion." > >Actually, Mark, we don't know WHAT it is, as I tried to say in my previous response to this. We don't know who did the study (who the UJF hired or if they did it themselves), what the methodology was, how many people were in the study, were the subjects [...] 1306 25 24_Re: Yeshivas For Hilonim0_15_DebALev@aol.com28_Wed, 5 Jul 2000 08:23:08 EDT450_US-ASCII In a message dated 7/4/00 11:28:58 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Emabear@aol.com writes:

> They were relealsed with the 1990 > demographic study of the American Jewish Community.

Good grief...TEN YEARS AGO? I remember that study....I was working for a UJF agency at that time. There were a number of questions about methodology just like the ones I asked the list rhetorically, and they were never answered, as far as I know. [...] 1332 33 24_RE: Yeshivas For Hilonim12_Fine, Sharon14_FineS@MLHS.ORG30_Wed, 5 Jul 2000 09:30:49 -0400579_- > to > Habonim and learned all there was to know about Judaism and social justice > to boot.> > > While that was presumably written tongue-in-cheek, it got me started on a > different line of thought. If I remember correctly, this whole > conversation started because of Jews straying from Judaism, and someone > suggesting that was happening because of insufficient formal Jewish > education. Back to the level of personal anecdotes: > My father's parents were communists. Very anti-religious, [...] 1366 17 24_RE: Yeshivas For Hilonim0_15_DebALev@aol.com24_Wed Jul 05 11:54:49 2000357_US-ASCII Sharon's note reminded me of my own theory of parenting.

You do the best you can, and the rest is a crap shoot!

Debbie

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 1384 17 23_Re: HABONET digest 15840_18_SOrenst341@aol.com28_Wed, 5 Jul 2000 12:54:57 EDT344_US-ASCII Some sad news. For those of you who knew him, Marv Satinoff from Kibbutz Urim passed away on July 4th. Shimon Orenstein

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 1402 32 35_Forgotten Sources of Jewish Customs17_Martin J. Goodman19_mgoodman@012.net.il30_Wed, 5 Jul 2000 13:44:53 +0200552_windows-1255 5 July 2000

In Habonet Digest 1583, Amnon provides a Bialik essay that suggests that custom of tefillin is derived from the ornaments of an ancient pastoral culture.

Another possible source of the tefillin custom, are the ornamental snakes that the Pharaohs of Egypt used to wear on their foreheads and left arms! [These snakes were believed to be the physical embodiment of the Egyptian counterpart of the Caananite goddess Asherah who together with her consort Ba'al, were the anathema of the prophets of the Tanach.] [...] 1435 21 35_Re: Classic Greek and Jewish Values5_tslil20_tslil_s@tzuba.org.il30_Thu, 6 Jul 2000 00:22:31 +0300525_iso-8859-1 Donna wrote, > Don't forget Rachav! ...Someone in the group asked why > there wern't any girls named after this courageous individual! > Donna

Sure, what girl wouldn't want to be named after a prostitute named Wide...?

Sharon (Goldstein) Tslil, Gesher '73-'79, Machon '77, Tsuba still

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 1457 41 7_habonet8_J Gordon20_mountain@neworld.net30_Wed, 5 Jul 2000 16:26:52 -0700126_iso-8859-1 I just joined last night, but I see that it is too many e-mails for me. Please take me off the habonet list. Thanks 1499 16 39_Re: Forgotten Sources of Jewish Customs0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com28_Thu, 6 Jul 2000 01:07:53 EDT386_US-ASCII I was taught that tzitzit were the reminder of the seaweed that hung from the monster(played by Barry Krasner) who visited us at Mosh after every m'durah ......s

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 1516 31 23_Re: Habonim Generations0_13_SC523@aol.com28_Thu, 6 Jul 2000 03:34:17 EDT432_US-ASCII Baruch Shiff wrote:



> If any one out there has any question about Camp Tavor let me state my oun > experience, I went to Kinneret (the predisesor of Tavor. My children went to > Tavor. my grand children went to tavor. Three of my grand children will be > at Tavor this year. My grandson Segev is Rosh Machene this year. If you are > worried about a continuing Judaism get your family to a Habonim camp. [...] 1548 15 5_Natan0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com28_Thu, 6 Jul 2000 04:06:22 EDT376_US-ASCII Does anyone else out there find it sad, ironic, unexplainable that Naton Sheransky(sic) seems to be unable to empathize with other people's oppression?

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 1564 44 5_Natan12_Stan Goldman17_stan@inter.net.il30_Thu, 6 Jul 2000 12:21:14 +0200196_Windows-1252 If you asked people on the streets of Israel about N. Sheransky I think you would find that most people here are disapointed in him and I think most Russian imigrants do not like him. 1609 26 24_Re: Yeshivas For Hilonim7_Greener25_ddwgreen@netvision.net.il31_Thu, 06 Jul 2000 12:59:26 +0300558_us-ascii I understood that they were planning to do an updated study of the NJPS during 2000, correcting many of the criticisms that were put out about the 1990 study, but haven't seen anything about it yet (at least here in Israel).

The discussion so far seems to focus on the different ways you can instill a Jewish identity in an individual - and I think it's safe to say that there's a basic consensus on Habonet that the Habonim approach is a valid one. The question is if all the different ways - including Habonim's - are "good" enough to [...] 1636 26 39_Re: Forgotten Sources of Jewish Customs22_Deborah M Tanzer-Cohen15_candeb@juno.com30_Thu, 6 Jul 2000 09:58:52 -0500647_- Martin, Jeffrey Tigay, prof at Penn, has posited that the totafot mentioned in the text of the Shma are derived from headbands worn by other early Semites, either Akkadians or Sumerians, I don't remember which. These are easily seen on wall carvings throughout the ancient world, including in Egypt, when captured Semites are depicted. I heard Jeff speak on this topic, and I'm sure it is published, tho I have no idea where. Debbie ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: [...] 1663 105 39_Re: Forgotten Sources of Jewish Customs18_sam or anna kelman20_kelman@attglobal.net31_Thu, 06 Jul 2000 12:54:08 -0400552_us-ascii > Subject: Re: Yeshivas For Hilonim > > From: Emabear@aol.com > > "The percentage rate for affiliation for American Jews, according to > Jewish Federation reports, is approximately 9%." > > I don't usually take the time to write to Habonet although I often find > the discourse enjoyable and meaningful. However, I could not let the above > stand as it seems to be undisputed data. > I am sorry that I don't have the old "Population Study" handy but this > figure I am quite sure is inaccurate. What I am about to present is nothing to > [...] 1769 52 23_Re: Habonim Generations9_Ben Cohen14_bencee@rcn.com30_Thu, 6 Jul 2000 15:08:26 -0400644_iso-8859-1 Dear Aliya Cotel: Just a minor correction. Tel Hai, the first Habonim camp in the mid-west, was located at New Buffalo, Mich., not Buffalo Gap. Tell your father. Ben Cohen -----Original Message----- From: SC523@aol.com To: Habonet@shamash.org Date: Thursday, July 06, 2000 3:34 AM Subject: Re: Habonim Generations



>Baruch Shiff wrote: > > >> If any one out there has any question about Camp Tavor let me state my oun >> experience, I went to Kinneret (the predisesor of Tavor. My children went to >> Tavor. my grand children went to tavor. Three of my grand children will be [...] 1822 23 23_RE: Habonim Generations0_21_BCooper@descartes.com30_Thu, 6 Jul 2000 15:27:19 -0400489_iso-8859-1 Mosh was at Buffalo Gap, West Virginia, in 1980.

--brian



> Dear Aliya Cotel: > Just a minor correction. Tel Hai, the first Habonim camp in the > mid-west, was located at New Buffalo, Mich., not Buffalo > Gap. Tell your > father. > Ben Cohen

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 1846 152 9_coin toss13_Yuval Warshai16_warshais@tir.com30_Thu, 6 Jul 2000 15:34:12 -0400544_iso-8859-1 While we the little fish just sit here (at work, of course, where they behave as if they are paying us, and we behave as if we are working, for how long only god knows...) and wait to see what the gods decide, Saeb Erekat has thrown a little challenge that I think would be very challenging/productive for all the wonderful thinking minds on this list, both from the left and the right of the political divide. It is a worthy challenge for both sides, and that is why I wrote I thought it would be something productive for this [...] 1999 43 23_Re: Habonim Generations18_sam or anna kelman20_kelman@attglobal.net31_Thu, 06 Jul 2000 15:59:46 -0400433_us-ascii Aliya, I think your dad is wrong. From Chicago the predecessor to Tavor was Yad Ari in Amherst, Wis. It closed in 54 and we then went for one summer (55) to Kinneret which had been the Farband camp but that time was the Habonim camp for Detroit, Pitts., Cincin., etc joined by us from Chicago, Milwaukee and Minneappolis. We, Leible Fine, Rami (Roger Pelowski) Peles & I bought Tavor in 56 & it opened that summer. Sam [...] 2043 90 23_Re: Habonim Generations0_13_SC523@aol.com28_Thu, 6 Jul 2000 18:50:58 EDT369_US-ASCII Sam,

My dad and Ben are talking about a period WAY before Yad Ari. The camp in New Buffalo was in the 30s and 40s - probably from 35 to just after the War. It was not a very good facility for kids because there was no place to build a swimming pool. When I asked my dad, "What about a lake?" he answered, "Yeah - there was a lake - Lake Michigan!" [...] 2134 16 23_Re: Habonim Generations0_13_SC523@aol.com28_Thu, 6 Jul 2000 18:50:55 EDT418_US-ASCII Sorry, my mistake, not my dad's - New Buffalo, Michigan, (as opposed to Buffalo Gap, W.VA) and my dad, Benny Cohen, Ari Lashner, Kieve and Etti Skidell, and Nahum Guttmann were all there! Aliya

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 2151 17 23_Re: Habonim Generations0_16_Aborciah@aol.com28_Thu, 6 Jul 2000 19:53:44 EDT435_US-ASCII It's good to hear of multigenerational Habonim families. Though I never attended camp, my sister and one of my daughters did, so I visited. I believe the name of the camp which predated Tavor was Yad Ari. Anita

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 2169 24 16_Natan in the WSJ0_14_KBob24@aol.com28_Thu, 6 Jul 2000 21:29:23 EDT392_US-ASCII Following up on the discussion here, Natan Schransky had a very well written op-ed piece in the Wall Street Journal today in which addresses charges that he has abandoned his belief in human rights. I don't particularly agree with his explanation of his position, but I find it interesting that he felt obligated to defend himself from that point of view and did so in the WSJ. [...] 2194 24 23_Re: Habonim Generations0_17_moorejnb@juno.com30_Thu, 6 Jul 2000 21:13:04 -0500567_- Hey: I vacation near New Buffalo--where was it located?

J. Moore Indianapolis, Mosh '76



________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 2219 23 9_Re: Natan7_Greener25_ddwgreen@netvision.net.il31_Fri, 07 Jul 2000 06:38:13 +0300400_us-ascii I think that Natan Sharansky is reflecting his disappointment at Ehud Barak's inability to govern in a democratic, rather than autocratic, way. Barak will be negotiating with Arafat in Washington without having sat down with his own cabinet about what the guidelines for the negotations will be.

Many of those of us who voted for Barak are disappointed with his governing style. [...] 2243 44 21_Mo re Tel Hai history9_Ben Cohen14_bencee@rcn.com30_Thu, 6 Jul 2000 23:38:19 -0400533_iso-8859-1 Aliya: Your father is a little younger than I, so he doesn't have the history of the New Buffalo camp exactly right. It was opened in 1927 or '28 by the Chicago Farband as an adult summer resort with a "kindervelt" as part of it, long long before there was a Habonim. It was modeled after "Unser Camp" which was created and operated by New York Farband. It was burned down by the local anti semites during the winter of '31 or '32. All that was left was one of the hotel structures (a very modest one, indeed) two of [...] 2288 134 21_Yeshivas for Chilonim15_Leo Diesendruck18_leodie@isdn.net.il31_Fri, 07 Jul 2000 07:52:02 +0200536_iso-8859-8 I asked Prof. Steven Cohen of the Hebrew University of Jerusalem to comment on the degree of affiliation of US Jews and here is his answer:

"Sherry Israel's analysis of the multiple linkages of Boston Jewry reports that 82% are somehow affiliated. Since about 45% belong to a synagogue (more if we talk aobut individuals rathr than households) and since affiliation takes many forms, and since about 80% also expereince some form of formla Jewish education, Sherry's number seems about right for the nation too." [...] 2423 14 23_Re: HABONET digest 15860_18_SOrenst341@aol.com28_Fri, 7 Jul 2000 06:51:10 EDT303_US-ASCII Kinnerit was a Habonim camp. Farband had a camp across the road from Kinnerit.

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 2438 45 42_FW: July 1st gathering for 10 Iranian Jews11_Carol Shore21_c_shore@ix.netcom.com30_Fri, 7 Jul 2000 12:14:07 -0400417_iso-8859-1 Subject: July 1st gathering for 10 Iranian Jews



PLEASE ADDRESS ALL INQUIRIES TO DAVID POLLOCK AT: jcrc@worldnet.att.net OR AT THE TELEPHONE NUMBER BELOW



On July 1st, 10 Iranian Jews were dealt harsh prison sentences after an unjust trial with no evidence against them.

Join in expressing your concern. Monday, July 10, 2000 12:00 noon 42nd St. and First Ave., NYC [...] 2484 15 25_Re: Yeshivas for Chilonim0_15_Emabear@aol.com28_Fri, 7 Jul 2000 18:09:40 EDT351_US-ASCII I am having difficulty downloading the email on affiliation of American Jews. Is anyone else? Help would be appreciated. Ellen

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 2500 17 23_Re: HABONET digest 15860_15_Emabear@aol.com28_Fri, 7 Jul 2000 18:13:52 EDT466_US-ASCII and the meals at the Farband Camp were served to the campers by waiters! Used to have to go there twice a week to get allergy shots. I used to pray daily that my parents wouldn't come to visit me at Kinneret or I would have been yanked home.

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 2518 19 23_Re: HABONET digest 15860_15_DebALev@aol.com28_Fri, 7 Jul 2000 18:19:41 EDT441_US-ASCII Ellen, when my parents came to visit me at Tavor, all my mother did was cry.

When they dropped me off at Machaneh Bonim, all my mother did was cry...she said it looked so awful, like rural slums.

Debbie

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 2538 26 25_RE: Yeshivas for Chilonim12_Fine, Sharon14_FineS@MLHS.ORG30_Fri, 7 Jul 2000 18:32:36 -0400639_-



The attachment reads as follows:

I asked Prof. Steven Cohen of the Hebrew University of Jerusalem to comment on the degree of affiliation of US Jews and here is his answer: "Sherry Israel's analysis of the multiple linkages of Boston Jewry reports that 82% are somehow affiliated. Since about 45% belong to a synagogue (more if we talk about individuals rather than households) and since affiliation takes many forms, and since about 80% also experience some form of formal Jewish [...] 2565 61 23_Re: Habonim Generations8_Pristoop22_cpristoo@mail.bcpl.net31_Fri, 07 Jul 2000 21:59:54 -0400663_us-ascii Buffalo Gap is in West Virginia, and it is where Machaneh Moshava was housed in the years after it left Annapolis (Riva, Md.) and before its present site north of Belair, Md. was acquired. Allan Pristoop



At 03:08 PM 7/6/00 -0400, you wrote: >Dear Aliya Cotel: > Just a minor correction. Tel Hai, the first Habonim camp in the >mid-west, was located at New Buffalo, Mich., not Buffalo Gap. Tell your >father. > Ben Cohen >-----Original Message----- >From: SC523@aol.com >To: Habonet@shamash.org >Date: Thursday, July 06, 2000 3:34 AM >Subject: Re: Habonim Generations > > >>Baruch Shiff wrote: >> [...] 2627 81 23_Re: Habonim Generations0_18_Rachelbern@aol.com28_Sat, 8 Jul 2000 02:14:58 EDT570_US-ASCII (Lisa, welcome to an entry on Habonet, starring YOU!)

cpristoo@mail.bcpl.net writes: << Buffalo Gap is in West Virginia, and it is where Machaneh Moshava was housed in the years after it left Annapolis (Riva, Md.) and before its present site north of Belair, Md. was acquired. Allan Pristoop >>

When I visited Mosh on Yom Horim one of the summers it was at Buffalo Gap I smiled at the memory of a different style of Jewish youth group I spent the weekend with there around 1975: One Friday night when I was about 15, I decided to take a solo [...] 2709 50 38_There's a Pile of Our Gang on the Lawn12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Sat, 08 Jul 2000 16:42:16 +0200654_us-ascii Haverot and Haverim, I had erroneously pigeonholed popular Meir Ariel as a good- to-average writer of modern Israeli songs with a terrible voice. He is perhaps best known for his sixties song: "Agadat Desheh - Legend of the Lawn, who's opening line is (There's a pile of our gang on the lawn)." Low key, pubescent, avoiding sensational erotica, the song bespoke a wholesome pre-drug pre-pub kibbutz culture and was a great favorite with the younger generation. Since the teenagers of yesteryear still sing it nostalgically as an-all-time favorite and surprisingly, contemporary MTV adolescents share their parents' feeling it is frequently [...] 2760 36 33_habonim generations & rural slums0_14_cbma@erols.com31_Sat, 08 Jul 2000 13:47:33 -0400558_us-ascii I've never been able to understand why parents cry when they see Habonim camps. My dad (Z.L.) was at the Buffalo convention in '35 (my parents met in Young Poalei Zion), at Hachshara in N.J., and after that at Afikim for 2 years in the late 30's, and always took great delight in every Habonim establishment, function, and offshoot thereof. I even remember him chuckling when they visited me on workshop and found me smoking Nadivs. I was puzzled since I had taken great pains to hide it. Then I realized that he thought it was all part of the [...] 2797 17 13_agadat desheh11_batya fromm18_fromm@inter.net.il31_Sat, 08 Jul 2000 22:01:00 +0300375_us-ascii Maier Ariel and Shalom Chanoch were from the same kibbutz but "Agadat Desheh" was Shalom Chanoch's song and has always been associated with him. Batya

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 2815 27 17_Re: agadat desheh11_Batel Libes25_batel_libes@earthlink.net31_Sat, 08 Jul 2000 15:52:27 -0700534_us-ascii Actually, I would say the song is more often than not associated with Arik Einshtein. Batel



batya fromm wrote:

> Maier Ariel and Shalom Chanoch were from the same kibbutz but "Agadat > Desheh" was Shalom Chanoch's song and has always been associated with > him. > Batya >





------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 2843 76 22_women in bible stories13_Yuval Warshai16_warshais@tir.com30_Sat, 8 Jul 2000 22:33:28 -0700600_iso-8859-1 The following statement (by Sue Liberman, later also quoted at the beginning of another message on a similar subject) has gotten me puzzled since I first read it, over a week ago:

>As for "women's lib"- what about Deborah, Miriam, and my favorite, Judith???? sue

I assume Sue must have been referring to Bereshit (Genesis) 36,34, which is the only appearance of the name as a character's name in the Bible, I believe. I am curious and puzzled as to how someone would choose this character as her/his favorite among all the others mentioned, just based on the very scant [...] 2920 19 10_Meir Ariel16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Sun, 09 Jul 2000 00:28:34 -0400384_us-ascii Meir Ariel spent two years as a shaliach to Habonim in the US--in Detroit, if I recall correctly. JJ & I were acquainted with him at Naaleh in the summer of 1970, just prior to his return to Israel. My recollections, jarred from an Alzheimer's-induced haze, are of a soft-spoken ironic man. I recollect him as the author of the bitter parody "Yerushalayim shel barzel." [...] 2940 34 23_Re: HABONET digest 15860_13_SC523@aol.com28_Sun, 9 Jul 2000 05:18:14 EDT562_US-ASCII

In a message dated 7/7/0 5:21:53 PM, you wrote:

>Ellen, when my parents came to visit me at Tavor, all my mother did was cry. > >When they dropped me off at Machaneh Bonim, all my mother did was cry...she >said it looked so awful, like rural slums. > >Debbie

It's funny that you write this -- my friend Janie, when she dropped her daughter off at Galil years ago, began calling it a "Maabarah," and I could never understand this.I, in turn, thought Galil was the most gorgeous camp I had ever seen, in contrast to some of the [...] 2975 54 22_Our Gang on the Lawn 212_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Sun, 09 Jul 2000 21:28:37 +0200417_iso-8859-1 Haverot/im Yesterday I enthused about the Jewish dimension of Meir Ariel's "Modeh Ani." Today I pored over the words of " A Man Gives Up his Country Only in his Mind, " trying to glean a kernel of Yiddishkeit to share. It looked grim at first, sounding like an exercise in patriotic hortatory, call it Sir Walter Scott's Be There a Man With Soul So Dead or a JNF song, Against Giving Up Your Country: [...] 3030 32 22_Our Gang on the Lawn 312_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Mon, 10 Jul 2000 09:18:53 +0200620_us-ascii Tzedek Tzedek Tirdoff Haverot/im I get by with some help from my friends. Today's contribution to Meir Ariel's exploits,(by the way "Agadat Deshe's" lyrics were written by him, while Shalom Hanoch's contribution was the music, and thanks to all my friends who commented, but now I really need you,) is again a melding of Ariel's allusions to Judaic sources together with contemporary pop culture. The song I need help with is "Tzedek, Tzedek Tirdof" (Pursue Justice Only.) The first two lines, Pursue justice only/ Seek peace and pursue it, are easy enough: Deut., 17, 20 and Psalms, 34, 15; respectively. [...] 3063 23 26_Re: Our Gang on the Lawn 30_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Mon, 10 Jul 2000 08:30:11 EDT577_US-ASCII Dear Amnon- James Dean was one of those teen-rebel-icons of the early '50's- an intense actor whose life was cut short in an auto accident. You can find all you want to know about him at the following website: www.IMDb.com

That stands for "Internet Movie Data Base"- and is the main database for any film-related question. Type in "James Dean" in the search box and go to "biography"--then go to "mini-biography" and you will find a list of his films also (including "Rebel Without a Cause")...(by the way- I am also listed on the site- but there is a lot [...] 3087 25 16_radio appearance0_12_SHX2@aol.com29_Mon, 10 Jul 2000 15:39:06 EDT317_US-ASCII Dear Habonetters,

I'm being interviewed on radio station KVOD - 1280 - AM in Denver this Thursday, July 13 at 8:30 am (I can't help but wonder if the call letters are Hebraically intentional?) and

KGNU - FM - 88.5 in Boulder, 99.9 Fort Collins, 93.7 Ward this Friday, July 14 at 10:45 am. [...] 3113 25 14_Re: Meir Ariel0_16_BERNSARA@aol.com29_Mon, 10 Jul 2000 16:55:33 EDT564_US-ASCII MeirAriel and his wife Theresa were more than just schlicim to the Schiff family. The family lived in our home until they could find a place to live while on shlichut in Detroit. We visited them many times at their home in Israel. I was the Shandit for their oldest boy and even had my picture of the event in their fathers home. Theresa traveled the world selling frames for eye glases for her Kibbutz and also represented the cosmetic company Helena Runinstein. Maier's death was needless as written up in the Israelie press. A ten day supply of a [...] 3139 21 23_Re: HABONET digest 15860_16_BERNSARA@aol.com29_Mon, 10 Jul 2000 18:17:55 EDT374_US-ASCII Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Habonim camps are not supposed to be fancy show places. we always prided ourselves that we did most of the work at camp. The physical was always adequate. The Jewish content was what was important. Let me know how Your mother acts when you get home. It is the people and content that make Tavor and all our Habonim camps. [...] 3161 20 42_Re: There's a Pile of Our Gang on the Lawn0_16_BERNSARA@aol.com29_Mon, 10 Jul 2000 18:17:54 EDT272_US-ASCII Havenot been able to get any of Meier Ariel's CD s in the states. Have you any idea of how I might get same.

By the way are you by any long shot related to Malka Harary? She and her family lived in Ramat Hasharon many years ago and we were neighbors. [...] 3182 27 20_Re: Stupid politics.0_16_BERNSARA@aol.com29_Mon, 10 Jul 2000 18:17:55 EDT490_US-ASCII Shas, Sharanski, and NRP suposidly left the coalition because Barak would not give them his RED LINE. I guess they were sleeping during the elections when he outlined what they were.

The New York Times of Monday 7/10/00 knows them very well. Also who are these smart politicos that tell the antagonists where to start the barganing. I am begening to think someone wants to leak information to the other side. Maybe Barak is smart to leave them out of any negotiations. [...] 3210 26 14_RE-affiliation17_Rena Cheskis-Gold16_renacg@ntplx.net31_Tue, 11 Jul 2000 00:07:40 -0400509_us-ascii > I'm starting to get very excited about attending the Tavor reunion. My middle > daughter is currently at Na'aleh for the first time, so this summer packs a > double wallop for me in terms of Habonim (re)affiliation. To quote from my > daughter's letter from camp: "This place has a lot of bugs, inside and out. > The food is only OK. There are a lot of interesting differences between this > camp and the other (Jewish) camp I went to. But the best thing is the > people." Does this resonate? [...] 3237 32 23_Re: HABONET digest 15900_15_RONOREN@aol.com29_Tue, 11 Jul 2000 00:40:40 EDT538_US-ASCII Baruch, et al,

Regarding finding Meier Ariel's CD s , or for that matter practically any CD or cassette of Jewish interest, try a great store in the Fairfax district here in Los Angeles, HATIKVA. They ship everywhere. Here's their info: http://www.hatikvahmusic.com

Hatikvah Music carries the largest selection of Jewish Music. Our specialties are Yiddish, Klezmer, Sephardic, Ladino, Cantorial and Israeli music on CD cassette, and video. Located on historic Fairfax Avenue in Los Angeles, we ship worldwide. [...] 3270 79 34_The Gang on Our Lawn and on Theirs12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Wed, 12 Jul 2000 23:29:01 +0200307_iso-8859-1 Haverim/ot Mighty Waters Overflowing by Meir Ariel

Roll on roll on mighty breakers and waves to the shore Roll roll roll to the shore

This is the sadness of mighty waters Sob of the of the boundless arrested by the shore Wail of water in the channels As deep calls unto deep * [...] 3350 113 17_Re:Arafat's goals12_Dov Liberman16_DLiberman@UH.EDU37_Wed, 12 Jul 2000 16:09:55 -0500 (CDT)385_us-ascii

The Oslo Interlude

By Charles Krauthammer Tuesday, July 11, 2000; Page A23

Why did President Clinton call today's hasty high-risk Camp David summit? Some are attributing this to Clinton's hunger for a legacy. Hungry he is, but I cannot believe that a president would so trifle with American standing in the Middle East for entirely selfish reasons. [...] 3464 30 18_Re: Arafat's goals12_Stopak, Noam26_n.stopak@scienceserver.com31_Wed, 12 Jul 2000 17:17:08 -0400476_us-ascii

Dov Liberman wrote:

> The Oslo Interlude > > By Charles Krauthammer > Tuesday, July 11, 2000; Page A23

Hi Dov,

I saw this in the Washington Post yesterday and almost sent it along to the list. He states quite forcefully the view you've been expounding. Here's hoping you're both wrong.

I think that Arafat (and perhaps more importantly the people he purports to represent) has much to lose as well if this is indeed his plan. [...] 3495 55 8_violence12_Dov Liberman16_DLiberman@UH.EDU37_Wed, 12 Jul 2000 16:32:42 -0500 (CDT)358_us-ascii It would appear that the right wing in Israel is not the only source of political violence. The followign article that appeared in Ha'aretz shows that extremes on both sides are adanger to israeli democracy.

Ha'aretz: Right-wing activists attacked and beaten - Yesha Council hiring guards to protect demonstrators from "thugs for peace" [...] 3551 43 18_Re: Arafat's goals12_Dov Liberman16_DLiberman@UH.EDU37_Wed, 12 Jul 2000 16:40:21 -0500 (CDT)347_us-ascii I certainly hope that Krauthemmer is wrong, but there is no evidence to contradict his position. Arafat has waged a bi-lingual war against Israel--talking peace in English and saying exactly what Krauthammer said when he speaks to the Arabic press. If he really wants peace with Israel, he has given NO evidence of these intentions. [...] 3595 123 13_Re: coin toss12_Dov Liberman16_DLiberman@UH.EDU37_Wed, 12 Jul 2000 16:45:48 -0500 (CDT)511_us-ascii The Arabs have continuously attacked Israel. In the Arabic press they express their intent to keep doing so. Percentages are irrelevant (even though it IS true that the original British mandate included what is now the Kingdom of Jordan). What is relevant is the need for Israel to ensure its safety. If this means holding onto territories that were taken when Israel was attacked, then it is the responsibility of the Israeli government to keep these territories in order to defend its citizens. [...] 3719 167 44_a peacenik's nighmare or worst case scenario13_Yuval Warshai16_warshais@tir.com31_Wed, 12 Jul 2000 14:26:11 -0400342_iso-8859-1 Let's assume for a moment that Barak and Clinton are going to pull off what they have been concocting together for quite some time. Let's assume for a moment that Barak will manage to keep 80% of those awful religious settlers under Israeli sovereignty, and that Arafat and his whole entourage are gonna swallow that somehow. [...] 3887 17 18_Re: Arafat's goals0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com29_Thu, 13 Jul 2000 08:44:14 EDT340_US-ASCII In a message dated 7/12/00 5:11:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time, DLiberman@UH.EDU writes:

<< DLiberman@UH.EDU >>

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 3905 66 66_Re: Arafat's goals - another (perhaps better informed) perspective12_Stopak, Noam26_n.stopak@scienceserver.com31_Thu, 13 Jul 2000 08:53:55 -0400712_us-ascii

Hi Dov,

Since we're quoting the Washington Post editorial page, here's a pointer to an article by Ephriam Sneh which presents an alternative to Krauthammer's view and also contradicts your assertion that Arafat "has given NO evidence" that he wants peace with Israel.

Noam

http://washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A33193-2000Jul12.html

Dov Liberman wrote:

> I certainly hope that Krauthemmer is wrong, but there is no evidence to > contradict his position. Arafat has waged a bi-lingual war against > Israel--talking peace in English and saying exactly what Krauthammer said > when he speaks to the Arabic press. If he really wants peace with Israel, he [...] 3972 217 16_FW: FW: Newsweek12_Fine, Sharon14_FineS@MLHS.ORG31_Thu, 13 Jul 2000 13:51:45 -0400347_iso-8859-1 <>

I want to alert you to a 'public opinion' poll on the Newsweek web site this week. It seeks opinions as to the disposition of Jerusalem. At the time I was sent this e-mail, over 2,400 responses had been received and "A New Palestinian State Should Incorporate It (Jerusalem)" was ahead until recently. [...] 4190 18 20_Re: FW: FW: Newsweek0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com29_Thu, 13 Jul 2000 14:29:05 EDT489_US-ASCII These kinds of polls are meaningless!

BTY- I heard a BBC analyst suggest that the cabinet crisis in Israel was a set up so he could claim that he can't give in too much at the summit. I personally find this difficult to believe, but interesting nonetheless.

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 4209 18 48_Re: a peacenik's nighmare or worst case scenario0_16_BERNSARA@aol.com29_Thu, 13 Jul 2000 16:28:24 EDT324_US-ASCII You do not give the " Palisinian refuges " proper credit. They are not going to go to a place with no jobs, or government subsidies. I am more worried about Lebanon and Jordan who are going to have to absorb all those " refuges " who are no longer supported by the UN and othe " supportive countries ". Baruch [...] 4228 20 18_Re: Arafat's goals0_16_BERNSARA@aol.com29_Thu, 13 Jul 2000 16:28:25 EDT372_US-ASCII Dov why don't you trust Barak. I believe most Israelies do trust him!

However I did go th shacharit this morning and asked the Rabbi if we shoudn,t include a prayer for peace or at least one to give our leaders help. He could not think of one and said anyway there were plenty of refrences to shalom in the text. Oh well so much for G-Ds help. baruch [...] 4249 72 18_Fwd: Seminar flyer0_16_BERNSARA@aol.com29_Thu, 13 Jul 2000 16:28:23 EDT17_US-ASCII

4322 36 53_Subject: a peacenik's nighmare or worst case scenario12_AviRosenberg18_avi@gezernet.co.il31_Sat, 15 Jul 2000 09:13:30 +0200416_us-ascii Hi Yuval In my unprofessional opinion, I tend to think that we've already reached a point where our land cannot support the population that's sitting on it. At least not in the style we're accustomed to. We're slowly destroying our what's left of our water supplies and any empty lands are on their way to becoming scarce. So I can't even imagine what this place will be like with another few million. [...] 4359 32 29_Trusting Prime Minister Barak17_Martin J. Goodman19_mgoodman@012.net.il31_Fri, 14 Jul 2000 15:59:50 +0200351_windows-1255 14 July 2000

In Habonet Digest 1593, Baruch writes, "" Dov why don't you trust Barak. I believe most Israelies do trust him ""

In the recent past, Barak has betrayed key campaign promises such as not legalizing pirate radio and requiring that all [Jewish] Israelis, including yeshiva bachurs, should serve in the army. [...] 4392 139 33_Re: Trusting Prime Minister Barak13_Yuval Warshai16_warshais@tir.com31_Fri, 14 Jul 2000 10:10:53 -0400376_windows-1255 If by dividing Jerusalem you mean giving them the right to build their parliament in Abu Dis, and have somehow a sovereign strip connecting it to the mosques on the Temple Mount (pretty much in the same manner the Knesset is "connected" from the same distance more or less to the Kotel by a sovereign strip of territory), then I hope Barak indeed does that. [...] 4532 27 33_Re: Trusting Prime Minister Barak0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com29_Fri, 14 Jul 2000 13:16:46 EDT560_US-ASCII In a message dated 7/14/00 9:00:50 AM Eastern Daylight Time, mgoodman@012.net.il writes:

> In the recent past, Barak has betrayed key campaign promises such as not > legalizing pirate radio and requiring that all [Jewish] Israelis, including > yeshiva bachurs, should serve in the army. I'm sorry, I don't quite understand this; does this mean that Barak did legalize pirate radio or didn't but said he would? Also does this mean that Barak has forced members of the yeshiva join the army or not? I'm obviously rather slow and uninformed. [...] 4560 59 18_Re: Arafat's goals12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Fri, 14 Jul 2000 20:54:26 +0200451_us-ascii Haverim/ot To tell the truth I don't know, don't really know what Arafat's goals are. But I'll share mine with you this Shabbat Balak when Barak is in Camp David. My goals are implicit in two poems by Yoram Tehar-Lev.

A COWARD

I'm lucky Someone is always more scared than me Someone is always dumber Someone is always weaker Someone is always going to die before me And I don't have anything to fear As long as he is alive [...] 4620 23 14_It's official!0_18_Rachelbern@aol.com29_Fri, 14 Jul 2000 16:23:41 EDT381_US-ASCII If you'd like me to score tickets for you to the US Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington, DC, better hurry up --Thursday, August 3rd, 2000 will be my last day at USHMM. On August 9, I begin a new job as Website Project Manager for the upcoming Presidential exhibition at the Smithsonian's National Museum of American History!! (for which you do not need tickets). [...] 4644 22 15_Moshava Reunion0_15_Moshava@aol.com29_Fri, 14 Jul 2000 17:04:15 EDT508_US-ASCII For all of those Mosh procrastinators out there: Registrations for the upcoming Mosh reunion are just pouring in! We are going to have a GREAT turnout. Much better than I expected (I am a bit of a worrier). I have received applications from chevre all over the US and Canada. If you haven't sent in your application yet, please do! We need to plan and its hard when we don't know numbers. If you aren't on our mailing list yet, send me your info! See You at Mosh! Tammy Block Schmidt 1966-1976 [...] 4667 14 19_Re: Moshava Reunion0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com29_Fri, 14 Jul 2000 18:02:34 EDT242_US-ASCII What application?

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 4682 28 18_Re: Arafat's goals12_Dov Liberman16_DLiberman@UH.EDU37_Fri, 14 Jul 2000 17:27:09 -0500 (CDT)523_us-ascii I don't trust Arafat. We will see if Barak, who should know better does. If he does, then I question his leadership.

Dov



>Dov why don't you trust Barak. I believe most Israelies do trust him! > > However I did go th shacharit this morning and asked the Rabbi if we >shoudn,t include a prayer for peace or at least one to give our leaders help. >He could not think of one and said anyway there were plenty of refrences to >shalom in the text. Oh well so much for G-Ds help. >baruch > > > [...] 4711 15 18_Re: It's official!0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Fri, 14 Jul 2000 18:59:35 EDT272_US-ASCII Dear Rachel! Mazal Tov on your new venture! sue

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 4727 47 19_Re: Moshava Reunion14_Orit Chicherio16_oritil@yahoo.com37_Fri, 14 Jul 2000 21:23:37 -0700 (PDT)524_us-ascii Tammy, How about putting the application online so that anyone who wants to can print it out and mail it to you? Orit --- Moshava@aol.com wrote: > For all of those Mosh procrastinators out > there: > Registrations for the upcoming Mosh reunion are > just pouring in! We are > going to have a GREAT turnout. Much better > than I expected (I am a bit of a > worrier). I have received applications from > chevre all over the US and > Canada. If you haven't sent in your > application yet, please do! We need to > [...] 4775 164 35_Barak's Reliability as a Politician17_Martin J. Goodman19_mgoodman@012.net.il31_Sat, 15 Jul 2000 13:19:44 +0200627_windows-1255 15 July 2000

In Habonet Digest 1594, Richard Smith asks regarding my previous posting "" does this mean that Barak did legalize pirate radio or didn't but said he would? Also does this mean that Barak has forced members of the yeshiva join the army or not?

Although not yet passed by the Knesset, Barak agreed to support legislation which would legalize illegal radio stations that are currently being operated by the SHAS political party and which would place the stations under the umbrella of the Israel Broadcast Authority - Station 2. Although this would limit their independence, it would [...] 4940 14 18_Re: It's official!0_13_SC523@aol.com29_Sun, 16 Jul 2000 03:37:43 EDT285_US-ASCII Y'asher koach, Rachel! Meshaneh makom, meshaneh mazal! Aliya

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 4955 46 12_Mosh reunion0_14_cbma@erols.com31_Mon, 17 Jul 2000 00:39:26 -0400391_us-ascii Well, it's coming soon and it's time to get excited! As Tammy said in her last e-mail, registration is looking good. As a confirmed procrastinator who is working on this reunion, I am, oddly enough, begging you not to procrastinate!!!! Although we officially have enough people registered to have a grand time, we have heard about many of you who are planning to come but have [...] 5002 29 22_web designer/architect13_Deborah Meyer20_dmeyer@shefafund.org31_Mon, 17 Jul 2000 08:43:09 -0400446_iso-8859-1 Can anybody refer me to a good, experienced web designer/architect? The Shefa Fund needs to build a new, multi-paged site, with password protected areas and the ability to sell publications and receive donations.

I would greatly appreciate referrals. I'm desperate!!!

Deborah Meyer Director of Outreach The Shefa Fund 8459 Ridge Avenue, Second Floor Philadelphia, PA 19128 tel 215/483-4004 x217 dmeyer@shefafund.org [...] 5032 20 39_Re: Barak's Reliability as a Politician0_17_Llamamint@aol.com29_Mon, 17 Jul 2000 12:53:55 EDT341_US-ASCII So with all that is going on right now (and i guess when isnt there something "going on" in Israel), do you t hink end of september is a crazy time to go to Israel!? i have begun to pretty seriously plan to go for at least a month and would love to go, it has been way too long since i was last there -- but ............ ilana [...] 5053 38 18_Vote for Jerusalem12_Alan Barland19_abarland@execpc.com31_Tue, 18 Jul 2000 11:56:35 -0700456_us-ascii Subject: FW: Vote for Jerusalem > > > > > > They have 47%, we have only 41%......... > > > > > > > > Take a minute to do this....very quick...no registration. > > > This NBC poll asks if Jerusalem should be under Israel, Palestine > > or > > > both... > > > at last check, Palestine was winning... let's show that we care. > > > > > > Check out this site and vote !!!!! Please forward to people who > > will also > > > vote for Israel! > > > [...] 5092 185 39_a very interesting Palestinian document13_Yuval Warshai16_warshais@tir.com31_Tue, 18 Jul 2000 14:59:33 -0400612_iso-8859-1 Here is a pretty long and detailed, but extremely interesting Palestinian document I happened to come by somewhere in the darker alleys of cyberspace. I don't know the writer and I don't know the organization. It doesn't really matter. The only purpose in reproducing it here is to show the type of legalistic and strategic thinking going on on the other side's rejectionist "right wing." In the same manner that we have seen representatives of the Jewish right wing rejecting the Oslo accords on this list, these article rejects it from the other side's symmetrical perspective. But what I find [...] 5278 17 3_m2k0_14_cbma@erols.com31_Tue, 18 Jul 2000 23:39:17 -0400348_us-ascii I neglected to mention that the deadline for ads for the Mosh reunion adbook is August 1. Hurry up! Hurry up!

Shelly

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 5296 67 29_Camp Galil goes to Camp David0_15_NEVETS2@aol.com29_Wed, 19 Jul 2000 00:33:06 EDT494_US-ASCII Chevre, Shalom uv'racha

Today was Habonim Dror Camp Galil day at Camp David.

About 50 Bonim and Bogrim (8th & 9th graders) from Habonim Dror Camp Galil spent the afternoon in the "demonstrators box" across from the Camp David press center in Thurmont, MD - in the Sukkat Shalom constructed by World Movement Secy General Michael Landsberg only the day before. I know, because I joined them as an LZA representative, as well as the Chair of the Galil Camp Committee. [...] 5364 83 33_Re: Camp Galil goes to Camp David14_David Friedman18_david@friedart.com31_Tue, 18 Jul 2000 23:21:48 -0700602_US-ASCII What a wonderful report. Thank you...out here in Portland, OR I feel very far from the gates of Camp David. So, it's great to get such a positive description of our comrades.

David Friedman david@friedart.com

> From: NEVETS2@aol.com > Reply-To: habonet@shamash.org > Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 00:33:06 EDT > To: NEVETS2@aol.com > Subject: Camp Galil goes to Camp David > > Chevre, Shalom uv'racha > > Today was Habonim Dror Camp Galil day at Camp David. > > About 50 Bonim and Bogrim (8th & 9th graders) from Habonim Dror Camp Galil > spent the afternoon in the "demonstrators [...] 5448 18 33_RE: Camp Galil goes to Camp David0_21_BCooper@descartes.com31_Wed, 19 Jul 2000 08:08:01 -0400347_iso-8859-1 Wonderful!

Hope you are having a great summer!

> Today was Habonim Dror Camp Galil day at Camp David. ....

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 5467 15 33_Re: Camp Galil goes to Camp David0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Wed, 19 Jul 2000 08:59:55 EDT367_US-ASCII Yeshar Koach to the chevre! As for the participants, someone should make Every thing I Know I Learned in Kindergarten mandatory reading....sue

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 5483 46 33_Re: Camp Galil goes to Camp David13_Yuval Warshai16_warshais@tir.com31_Wed, 19 Jul 2000 11:08:39 -040089_iso-8859-1 yshar koach, ale vehagshem, aloh naaleh, ale uvneh, hazak veematz, ___ |Y| ^^^ 5530 24 20_Re: Stupid politics.0_16_BERNSARA@aol.com29_Wed, 19 Jul 2000 16:46:14 EDT307_US-ASCII If we are really going to have peace we will need a change in the education the Arabs are giving their children. I sincerly hope that a peace comes out of the Camp David talks now! However the agreement should include something to the effect that hate liturture in the Arab schools must stop. [...] 5555 18 33_Re: Camp Galil goes to Camp David0_16_BERNSARA@aol.com29_Wed, 19 Jul 2000 17:33:05 EDT467_US-ASCII Thank you very much. I am only sad that I was not with you and that camp Tavor is so far from Camp David that my grand kids could not be with you. I am sure this is an experience that all participants will tell their granchildren about. baruc

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 5574 75 33_Re: Camp Galil goes to Camp David11_Batel Libes25_batel_libes@earthlink.net31_Wed, 19 Jul 2000 19:31:53 -0700555_us-ascii Hi, It warms my heart to read this notice. In fact, I printed it and faxed it to Gilboa, where my daughter is, so it can be shared with the rest of the tn'ua chanichim. I encourage those who contact with other machanot to do the same.

NEVETS2@aol.com wrote:

> Chevre, Shalom uv'racha > > Today was Habonim Dror Camp Galil day at Camp David. > > About 50 Bonim and Bogrim (8th & 9th graders) from Habonim Dror Camp Galil > spent the afternoon in the "demonstrators box" across from the Camp David > press center in Thurmont, MD [...] 5650 112 33_RE: Camp Galil goes to Camp David14_Elliot Choueka24_elliot.choueka@bbc.co.uk31_Thu, 20 Jul 2000 03:37:55 +0100545_- And they made it to BBC News too!

> -----Original Message----- > From: Batel Libes [SMTP:batel_libes@earthlink.net] > Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2000 3:32 AM > To: habonet@shamash.org > Cc: NEVETS2@aol.com > Subject: Re: Camp Galil goes to Camp David > > Hi, > It warms my heart to read this notice. In fact, I printed it and faxed it > to > Gilboa, where my daughter is, so it can be shared with the rest of the > tn'ua > chanichim. I encourage those who contact with other machanot to do the > same. > > NEVETS2@aol.com wrote: > > [...] 5763 120 33_Re: Camp Galil goes to Camp David11_Batel Libes25_batel_libes@earthlink.net31_Wed, 19 Jul 2000 19:57:33 -0700531_us-ascii In the '70s our agenda was Soviet Jewry. I don't know what it was in the '80s and '90s, but let's hope peace is of the zeros.

Elliot Choueka wrote:

> And they made it to BBC News too! > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Batel Libes [SMTP:batel_libes@earthlink.net] > > Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2000 3:32 AM > > To: habonet@shamash.org > > Cc: NEVETS2@aol.com > > Subject: Re: Camp Galil goes to Camp David > > > > Hi, > > It warms my heart to read this notice. In fact, I printed it and faxed it [...] 5884 159 33_RE: Camp Galil goes to Camp David14_Elliot Choueka24_elliot.choueka@bbc.co.uk31_Thu, 20 Jul 2000 04:00:27 +0100537_- I assume you've heard the news that the talks have just broken up without any agreement?

> -----Original Message----- > From: Batel Libes [SMTP:batel_libes@earthlink.net] > Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2000 3:58 AM > To: habonet@shamash.org > Subject: Re: Camp Galil goes to Camp David > > In the '70s our agenda was Soviet Jewry. I don't know what it was in the > '80s and '90s, but let's hope peace is of the zeros. > > Elliot Choueka wrote: > > > And they made it to BBC News too! > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > [...] 6044 24 12_no agreement11_Carol Shore21_c_shore@ix.netcom.com31_Wed, 19 Jul 2000 22:48:00 -0400304_iso-8859-1 Chevre,

11 pm, EDT USA and the terse statement comes forth from Camp David: "The summit is over. There is no agreement." I fear for the death of hope, of possibility. I fear the anger and potential violence born of frustration. Is there really no chance of peace in our lifetimes? [...] 6069 31 20_The talks will go on11_Batel Libes25_batel_libes@earthlink.net31_Wed, 19 Jul 2000 23:11:39 -0700552_us-ascii Latest postings to CNN indicate that the talks will go on without Clifton. Maybe there is hope after all, after all, they did not walk away, or have not yet walked away.

Batel

Carol Shore wrote:

> Chevre, > > 11 pm, EDT USA and the terse statement comes forth from Camp David: "The > summit is over. There is no agreement." I fear for the death of hope, of > possibility. I fear the anger and potential violence born of frustration. > Is there really no chance of peace in our lifetimes? > > Pray for peace and calm. [...] 6101 21 33_Re: Camp Galil goes to Camp David0_14_KBob24@aol.com29_Thu, 20 Jul 2000 10:56:23 EDT300_ISO-8859-1 I am happy to report that my daughter Shani was one of those at Camp David and according to a phone call from her (yes, I know, kids at camp aren't suppose to call... they are so resourceful...she was so excited that she had to call) it was a very positive and meaningful experience. [...] 6123 55 33_Re: Camp Galil goes to Camp David13_Yuval Warshai16_warshais@tir.com31_Thu, 20 Jul 2000 11:02:05 -0400301_iso-8859-1 I have faxed Chaver Steve's report to my two daughters at Tavor, and to my niece who is Merakezet Chinuch there this summer. Let's hope and pray they can still come up with something good for the future of "all Israel and all peoples of the world" at Camp David. shabbat shalom, ___ |Y| ^^^ 6179 22 10_CAMP GALIL15_MENDY MENDELSON24_frenchhorn90@hotmail.com29_Thu, 20 Jul 2000 15:12:32 GMT525_-

To all at Camp Galil, Many many thanks from all of us here in Kibbutz Maayan Baruch, on the Lebanon border for your support at Camp David for the eforts of Barak to make a just peace for us. It warms our hearts to see that Habonim as we knew it a long time ago, can still man the barricades and fight for peace. Thanks again. MENDY MENDELSON KIBBUTZ MAAYAN BARUCH ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com [...] 6202 20 33_Re: Camp Galil goes to Camp David11_Noam Stopak26_n.stopak@scienceserver.com31_Thu, 20 Jul 2000 11:54:59 -0400397_us-ascii Oy! Chanichim are taking their fax machines to machene?

Yuval Warshai wrote:

> I have faxed Chaver Steve's report to my two daughters at Tavor, and to my niece who is Merakezet Chinuch there this summer. Let's hope and pray they can still come up with something good for the future of "all Israel and all peoples of the world" at Camp David. > shabbat shalom,___|Y|^^^ [...] 6223 24 32_Re: A Frankly Political Proposal0_16_BERNSARA@aol.com29_Thu, 20 Jul 2000 14:21:12 EDT572_US-ASCII TO MARTY:

Sorry it has taken me so long to reply. I agree with you, but not completely, that Habonim should become involved politically. It seems to me far more important for the Labor Zionist Alliance in the U.S. to become involved politically. Let them set an example that Habonim will want to follow. LZA has not come out in the media, in ads, in a loud voice to the community about the peace process, about support for Camp David talks, about Palestinian claims (either right or wrong). What is the purpose of the "LABOR" Zionists if they can not [...] 6248 69 59_Re: Stupid politics (should be titled malignant education).13_Michael Livni21_ml-lotan@zahav.net.il31_Thu, 20 Jul 2000 22:18:48 -0700497_US-ASCII Shalom Baruch and Habonet

Without in any way taking a stand on wider issues (except that I do support the Barak initiative with ALL its inherent dangers) your remarks re Arab education are spot on. I speak on the basis of personal conversations with Arabs -- Palestinian and Palestinian-Jordanian. Let there be a joint education commission to monitor what we teach about them and what they teach about us. If we don't have that then Peace is just going to be a piece of paper [...] 6318 24 33_Re: Camp Galil goes to Camp David11_Batel Libes25_batel_libes@earthlink.net31_Thu, 20 Jul 2000 14:48:27 -0700555_us-ascii Actually, the machane has a fax machine it uses to run its business. I don't know about other machanot, but Gilboa is so secluded, the fax probably saves a great deal of time. Batel

Noam Stopak wrote:

> Oy! Chanichim are taking their fax machines to machene? > > Yuval Warshai wrote: > > > I have faxed Chaver Steve's report to my two daughters at Tavor, and to my niece who is Merakezet Chinuch there this summer. Let's hope and pray they can still come up with something good for the future of "all Israel and all peoples of [...] 6343 122 14_Re: CAMP GALIL13_Yuval Warshai16_warshais@tir.com31_Thu, 20 Jul 2000 22:23:39 -0700532_iso-8859-1 Dear Mendy,

Many thanks to you and to all the other chaverim there with you, who living where you happen to live [one of the most beautiful places on this earth, in my view], still have the decency and courage to come out and support PEACE as you so firmly have done more than once on this list. Each clear and loud voice for PEACE from where you are speaking is worth much more than any other voice for PEACE from somewhere else, in Israel and outside of it. I say this because I know that a great number of [...] 6466 35 13_Galil & Peace13_Deborah Meyer20_dmeyer@shefafund.org31_Fri, 21 Jul 2000 09:34:49 -0400504_iso-8859-1 I am also very moved and heartened by Mendy's message, and by the peace activism of the Galil chanichim. (And delighted that our daughter Carla attended Galil for her first 2 weeks this summer!)

One of my first political actions was through Moshava's city ken. We too picketed the A&P for carrying nonunion grapes and lettuce. It made a big impression on me. Habonim most definitely had a role in my political awareness, and on my future career choices, working for social change. [...] 6502 58 20_Oren's 48th Birthday12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Fri, 21 Jul 2000 18:40:30 +0200591_us-ascii

Tomorrow, Shabbat Pinhas would've been Oren's 48th birthday if either of Amichai's the two poems below could have penetrated minds and hearts. Instead, at Camp David, Jerusalem and Gazza they have made madmen's trivia games of arguing who's flags will fly where.

How did a banner begin? Let's assume there was something whole Like the dress of a woman you yearn for. Then it tore In two, and was enough for two warring camps. Or like a lounge chair in an abandoned garden >From my childhood, torn stripes waving in the wind, This too is a banner, telling you to [...] 6561 70 20_galill at camp David14_Danny Goldberg17_mb300dt@yahoo.com37_Fri, 21 Jul 2000 09:26:26 -0700 (PDT)546_us-ascii the following article appeared in today's Jewish Telegraphic Agency (JTA)

Activists bring innocent spirit to complex Camp David talks By Brian Seidman



NEW YORK, July 20 (JTA) -- Some Jewish activists are bringing a bit of summer camp -- and optimism -- to Camp David.



Banners line the sides of the World Labour Zionist Movement's "sukkat shalom," which they hope will convey their support to Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak for a peace agreement at the tense Israeli-Palestinian negotiations. [...] 6632 86 24_Re: galill at camp David11_Noam Stopak26_n.stopak@scienceserver.com31_Fri, 21 Jul 2000 12:32:13 -0400340_iso-8859-1 Habonim-Dror is the youth division of the World Labour Zionist Movement?

BTW I was kidding about the fax machines. I just remember it was difficult to even get a phone message when I was a madriach and now kids are receiving faxes. Are cell phones and pagers invading ohelim?

Noam

Danny Goldberg wrote: [...] 6719 18 24_Re: galill at camp David0_15_Emabear@aol.com29_Fri, 21 Jul 2000 13:33:17 EDT395_US-ASCII And I remember picketing outside of Woolworth's (or maybe it was Newberrry's) in the 50's because they wouldn't hire blacks. Still can't cross a picket line.

Ellen

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 6738 16 24_Re: galill at camp David0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com29_Fri, 21 Jul 2000 17:13:40 EDT435_ISO-8859-1 It is just amazing to me to see the positive response the kids a Camp David are getting. So despite what we have heard from some quarters Habonim was and is a progressive movement. I am very happy.

Sam

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 6755 22 14_Re: CAMP GALIL0_24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Sun, 23 Jul 2000 00:39:56 +0300421_US-ASCII Yuval, you distort truth when you write that the settlers are against peace. Nothing is further from the truth and we who live here know this. Many people on the left, including me, are very very worried about the peace process and do not support peace at any price. Our belief is that something concrete has to be given for a peace agreement and it is mutual. Barak understands this, you should too. pearl [...] 6778 94 14_Re: CAMP GALIL11_Batel Libes25_batel_libes@earthlink.net31_Sun, 23 Jul 2000 01:17:51 -0700402_us-ascii







Subject: Prime Minister Barak has been abandoned by the politicians in his government on the eve of his important trip to attempt to reach a peace agreement with the Palestinians. We must show him that the people of Israel support him in his struggle.





To Prime Minister Barak, We support you in your search to bring peace to Israel. [...] 6873 170 50_Haaretz Daily Newspaper - English Internet Edition11_Mark Hammel18_mhammel@ulster.net31_Sun, 23 Jul 2000 11:48:03 -0400123_us-ascii So, ye subscribers to habonet: which left are you?

http://www3.haaretz.co.il/eng/scripts/print.asp?id=86128 7044 27 21_An everlasting peace.0_16_BERNSARA@aol.com29_Sun, 23 Jul 2000 15:31:47 EDT366_US-ASCII I wrote last week that a true and lasting peace setelment must include getting the Palesinians to remove any hate literature from their educational system. If hate is taught peace will never be perminate! When I mentioned this to one of my sons , he retorted what about the Orthadox educational system? I realy do not know the answer to that question! [...] 7072 17 26_habonim camp in wisconsin?11_Noam Stopak26_n.stopak@scienceserver.com31_Sun, 23 Jul 2000 18:29:31 -0400355_us-ascii

I caught a snippet of a piece about summer camping on NPR's "This American Life" and one of the people who spoke was a woman who talked about a kuntz pulled at a "leftist zionist" camp in Wisconsin. Now I wish I'd been paying more attention to the recent history of midwest camps. Was there a Habonim camp in Wisconsin at one point? [...] 7090 17 30_Re: habonim camp in wisconsin?0_16_Elana829@aol.com29_Sun, 23 Jul 2000 20:22:49 EDT406_US-ASCII I heard the same NPR program about the Zionist camp in Wisconsin. Does anyone know the history of Camp Herzl in Wisconsin. That was my only thought on which camp it could have been.

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 7108 16 30_Re: habonim camp in wisconsin?0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com29_Sun, 23 Jul 2000 22:28:35 EDT318_US-ASCII I know nothing about Camp herzl except that Bob Dylan went there in the early 1950's.



------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 7125 14 10_Camp Herzl11_Roz Barland17_rbarland@mjds.org31_Sun, 23 Jul 2000 21:43:45 -0500272_us-ascii I belive it was a Hashomer Hatzair camp. Rozzie

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 7140 24 30_Re: habonim camp in wisconsin?0_14_KBob24@aol.com29_Sun, 23 Jul 2000 22:38:33 EDT370_US-ASCII In a message dated 7/23/00 10:29:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Richardrdsmith@aol.com writes:

<< I know nothing about Camp herzl except that Bob Dylan went there in the early 1950's. >>

I went to Herzl in 1964 before I went to Tavor (and after Dylan attended). It was a general Zionist camp. I don't actually know if it is still in existence. [...] 7165 15 23_Re: HABONET digest 16030_18_SOrenst341@aol.com29_Mon, 24 Jul 2000 01:10:38 EDT319_US-ASCII Habonim Camp in Wisconsin? Yes, Habonim Camp Yad Ari, Amherst , WI. From 1947 to the mid 1950s

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 7181 31 30_Re: habonim camp in wisconsin?15_Nechemia Meyers32_rrmeyers@wisemail.weizmann.ac.il31_Mon, 24 Jul 2000 08:57:13 +0300602_US-ASCII Hi, There was a Habonim camp in Wisconsin, Yad Ari, where I spent the summer of 1948 after attending the Habonim Institute in New York. I don't know how long it was in existence. Nechemia Meyers, Rehovot, Israel





>>> n.stopak@scienceserver.com 07/24/00 01:32 AM >>>

I caught a snippet of a piece about summer camping on NPR's "This American Life" and one of the people who spoke was a woman who talked about a kuntz pulled at a "leftist zionist" camp in Wisconsin. Now I wish I'd been paying more attention to the recent history of midwest camps. Was there a [...] 7213 18 30_Re: habonim camp in wisconsin?0_16_Elana829@aol.com29_Mon, 24 Jul 2000 12:48:54 EDT354_US-ASCII Camp Herzl is still alive and kicking. I know that because they offerred my son a camp couselor job for this summer.

Elana

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 7232 46 25_Re: An everlasting peace.13_Michael Livni21_ml-lotan@zahav.net.il31_Mon, 24 Jul 2000 20:43:06 -0700335_US-ASCII The short answer to the question re Orthodux education in Israel is that it is not monolithic. To the best of my knowledge: 1. Chabad is the most racist 2. Ultra Orthodox follows 3. Religious Zionist is ambivalent NONE CAN MATCH THE VENOMOUS HATRED BEING INCULCATED IN MUCH OF THE ARAB WORLD REGARDING ZIONISTS AND JEWS. [...] 7279 14 25_Re: An everlasting peace.0_15_Emabear@aol.com29_Mon, 24 Jul 2000 15:27:39 EDT264_US-ASCII Here we go with the name calling again.

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 7294 18 25_Re: An everlasting peace.0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com29_Mon, 24 Jul 2000 15:29:49 EDT383_US-ASCII In a message dated 7/24/00 3:28:34 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Emabear@aol.com writes:

> Here we go with the name calling again. To whom does this refer?

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 7313 14 25_Re: An everlasting peace.0_15_Emabear@aol.com29_Mon, 24 Jul 2000 17:23:19 EDT246_US-ASCII Chabadnikim, racists?

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 7328 53 15_Death of a mag?16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Mon, 24 Jul 2000 21:23:38 -0400674_us-ascii Two days ago I received a letter from the offices of Response Magazine announcing suspension of publication. Additionally, the management enclosed a check fully reimbursing me my subscription fee. Response had been an important vehicle for intellectual expression for over thirty years. For some of us, once upon a time it was the medium of what we--too optimistically and sometimes a tad too arrogantly--characterized as "new" thinking of an awakened and recreative North American Jewry. We may have overestimated ourselves and on occasion over-reached. But Response chronicled an era. I hope it will resume publication. But, as the self-styled "Contemporary [...] 7382 99 44_Position MUST be filled by a Movement person0_15_NEVETS2@aol.com29_Mon, 24 Jul 2000 21:36:00 EDT564_US-ASCII Chevre, Shalom

We wait to see the puff of white smoke rising over Camp David. Mosh was there today - 150 strong. Hope we hear from them directly.

This position must be filled by a Habonim Alum!!! If You want to know why I think so, please write.

Chaver Steve ---------------------------------------------

Subject: [MAIL-HAVURAH:2622] Job Announcement: MANAGING DIRECTOR of NHC Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 18:17:58 -0400 (EDT) From: MFRYDENBERG@bentley.edu To: National Havurah Committee Mailing List [...] 7482 66 25_Re: An everlasting peace.13_Pearl Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Tue, 25 Jul 2000 11:21:07 +0300568_iso-8859-1 Michael, what do you mean by "racist"? Is "racist" synonymous with "hate" or does their chinuch just teach "different" and "different and separate"? There is NO way to compare Israeli and Jewish chinuch to that being taught by Arabs, which is to pillage and murder. No where will you find any Jewish school teaching hatred and instigating to violence against another people. pearl ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Livni To: Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2000 6:43 AM Subject: Re: An everlasting peace. [...] 7549 27 25_Re: An everlasting peace.0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com29_Tue, 25 Jul 2000 09:28:35 EDT502_US-ASCII In a message dated 7/25/00 5:03:48 AM Eastern Daylight Time, skolnik@netvision.net.il writes:

<< Michael, what do you mean by "racist"? Is "racist" synonymous with "hate" or does their chinuch just teach "different" and "different and separate"? There is NO way to compare Israeli and Jewish chinuch to that being taught by Arabs, which is to pillage and murder. No where will you find any Jewish school teaching hatred and instigating to violence against another people. pearl >> [...] 7577 106 43_Re: An everlasting peace-Chabad and Racism.13_Michael Livni21_ml-lotan@zahav.net.il31_Tue, 25 Jul 2000 21:41:29 -0700421_US-ASCII To Pearl and Others In what I said I clearly put Chabad in a different category than much of the Arab world in my statement. I clearly stated that much of the Arab world was in an incomparably more hostile mode towards us However, while being fully aware of the problematics of the educational line of the Arabs I think that it is going overboard to say that all they do is educate to" pillage and murder". [...] 7684 59 23_Re: HABONET digest 160318_sam or anna kelman20_kelman@attglobal.net31_Tue, 25 Jul 2000 16:40:25 -0400223_us-ascii I wish I'd been paying more attention to the recent history of midwest camps. Was there a Habonim camp in Wisconsin at one point?

Yes. Yad Ari was in Amherst, Wisconsin from 48 (I think) until 54.

> > 7744 35 7_WARNING17_Martin J. Goodman19_mgoodman@012.net.il31_Wed, 26 Jul 2000 09:45:36 +0200391_windows-1255 26 July 2000

PLEASE READ THIS WARNING.

On 23 July 2000, my computer was infected with the PRETTY PARK virus.

This virus sends out email with an attachment called PRETTY PARK to everyone on the computer's email list and signs the email with the name to which the computer is registered. In this way, it looks as if someone you know has sent you a file. [...] 7780 26 31_Re the end of the peace process0_16_BERNSARA@aol.com29_Wed, 26 Jul 2000 12:08:54 EDT531_US-ASCII Just finished reading the NY Times and am of course very sad. How many times do our hopes have to go up in flames! My oun personal conclusion is that Clinton erred by not puting presure on the other Arab countries before calling for the conference. I was discussing the end of the talks with a member of the U of M faculty who teaches mid eastern history and his theory is that the Arabs believe the Bush will be the next president and will be much more considerate of the power of oil. Or should I say the economics [...] 7807 49 25_Re: An everlasting peace.13_Pearl Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Wed, 26 Jul 2000 01:21:24 +0300424_iso-8859-1 Sam, please inform us exactly which schools and chinuch are hateful and racist as you say. I think we should know.... Unless you have spoken with the students and read their books or talked to the teachers, I would say you are treading on thin ice. pearl ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2000 4:28 PM Subject: Re: An everlasting peace. [...] 7857 139 43_Re: An everlasting peace-Chabad and Racism.13_Pearl Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Wed, 26 Jul 2000 01:29:52 +0300497_iso-8859-1 michael, shalom, Please enlighten me: why do we disparage the anti-zionist Jews who live in Israel all their lives and call them anti-zionists, while Jews who live abroad and do not intend to live in Israel are called zionists? Something is wrong with attitudes and terminology here. pearl ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Livni To: Sent: Wednesday, July 26, 2000 7:41 AM Subject: Re: An everlasting peace-Chabad and Racism. [...] 7997 161 43_RE: An everlasting peace-Chabad and Racism.12_Fine, Sharon14_FineS@MLHS.ORG31_Wed, 26 Jul 2000 15:22:10 -0400610_iso-8859-1 Pearl, Michael said "Chabad is not Zionist." That isn't calling them anti-Zionist, nor is it disparaging. Where is your accusation coming from? Also, my understanding has always been that Zionism had nothing to do with where you happen to live. What is *your* definition of Zionism? -Sharon





> michael, shalom, > Please enlighten me: why do we disparage the anti-zionist Jews who live > in > Israel all their lives and call them anti-zionists, while Jews who live > abroad > and do not intend to live in Israel are called zionists? Something is > wrong > with > attitudes [...] 8159 200 38_Re: Zionism, Non Zionism, Anti-Zionism13_Michael Livni21_ml-lotan@zahav.net.il31_Thu, 27 Jul 2000 15:23:26 -0700424_US-ASCII Shalom Pearl (and other interested Habonetters) You raise a number of issues.First let us differentiate between anti-Zionist (a term I never used and my non-using was quite deliberate as Sharon has understood) and non-Zionist.

The only anti-Zionist Jews at the religious end that I know are Neturi Karta. They would happily live under Ararafat because then it would not be desecration of the Holy Name. [...] 8360 22 37_seeking examples of hateful education11_Noam Stopak26_n.stopak@scienceserver.com31_Thu, 27 Jul 2000 08:45:07 -0400330_us-ascii

Hi,

I'm composing a response to an op-ed piece in the Washington Post and I wonder if some of the people on this list who have spoken out on the evils of the Palestinian educational system could provide some examples (preferably with citation to the name of the textbook) that illustrate the problem. [...] 8383 17 25_Re: An everlasting peace.0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com29_Thu, 27 Jul 2000 14:19:59 EDT562_ISO-8859-1 I think that is a fair question Pearl, and I think we are talking about a minority. I do not think we have a problem like the Palestinean problem where these things are reflected in the texts are where the racisim is a blatent. Rather I think we are deal with michanchim who pass on attitudes to their students. Yigal Amir and Baruch Goldstein did not arise in a vacuum. That being said, I am not making a blanket condemnation of any sector of the Jewish educational establishment. I and others here have already admitted the obvious that we are [...] 8401 17 22_happy birthday habonet0_21_BCooper@descartes.com31_Thu, 27 Jul 2000 16:10:09 -0400284_iso-8859-1 Habonet is 5 years old today.

whew!

--brian

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 8419 27 26_Re: happy birthday habonet11_Don Goelman31_goelman@tiger.csc.villanova.edu37_Thu, 27 Jul 2000 16:31:01 -0400 (EDT)359_us-ascii See Wordsworth, Brian (something about Tintern Abbey).

Don

> > Habonet is 5 years old today. > > whew! > > --brian > > >

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 8447 35 23_Re The Mid West seminar0_16_BERNSARA@aol.com29_Thu, 27 Jul 2000 16:31:29 EDT534_US-ASCII To all the chaverim who find time to read this page RESERVE Nov 10 to 12 th.

You who have gone to old Habomim Reunions know how great they are (even mariages evolve) and how much fun and nostalga evolves.

We in Detroit are preparing for our annual mid-west seminar and feel it is about time we opened it up to the whole country. LZA is alive and well but, like Habonim, too few in numbers. Come see you might find we fill a nitch that is missing in your life. You might meet old friends or just might want [...] 8483 20 26_RE: happy birthday habonet0_21_BCooper@descartes.com31_Thu, 27 Jul 2000 16:34:30 -0400397_iso-8859-1 > See Wordsworth, Brian (something about Tintern Abbey). > > Don

This what you mean, Don?

Nice!

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 8504 33 51_Re: happy birthday habonet, from William Wordsworth11_Don Goelman31_goelman@tiger.csc.villanova.edu37_Thu, 27 Jul 2000 17:08:51 -0400 (EDT)358_us-ascii Yes, but no. The punch line (for our purposes) is at the beginning of the poem this time, before the quoted fragment.

Many happy returns.

Don

> > > See Wordsworth, Brian (something about Tintern Abbey). > > > > Don > > This what you mean, Don? > > > Nice! > > > [...] 8538 27 16_The Peace Summit9_Norm Kane19_normk@earthlink.net31_Thu, 27 Jul 2000 19:19:14 -0700560_us-ascii Once again the Palestinians have managed to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. If any of them think that they will ever be offered a better deal than what Barak put on the table, they are wrong. If the Palestinians think that there is or ever will be an Israeli Prime Minister who will give them Jerusalem then they have made a serious miscalculation. The same goes for allowing all the refugees the right to return to the homes they left in Israel. (see Commentary magazine for a good article on the situation in Haifa in 1948). Arafat was [...] 8566 67 18_birth announcement16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Thu, 27 Jul 2000 22:48:00 -0400555_us-ascii Aliya asked that I forward the following announcement. It's always delightful to be able to pass on good news.



> Announcing to the WHOLE WORLD!!!!!!!!! > > We, Emma Raymont and Hank Albert have become first time parents. > Our beautiful, 8 pound-9 ounce, gorgeous baby boy arrived on Monday night > July 24th in Doylestown Hospital at 10:43 pm. Everyone is worn out after a > long and arduous delivery, but we will be re-energized in time for the bris > on Tuesday Aug. 1st at > 3 pm at our home. > > We are ecstatic. Hank is [...] 8634 76 10_Camp Herzl8_kanter1822_kanter18@email.msn.com31_Thu, 27 Jul 2000 21:48:51 -0500409_iso-8859-1 Herzl Camp is very much alive in Wisconsin. Although an independent organization it functions as the mainstream Jewish camp for the Minneapolis/St. Paul area. ( I believe there is no JCC overnight camp up there.)

Herzl Camp is full, with a long waiting list. Do worry too much about them!

We did pick up a good camper off their waiting list who was motivated to travel to Tavor. [...] 8711 30 26_Re: happy birthday habonet13_shirley atlas21_lirshnel@iinet.net.au31_Fri, 28 Jul 2000 04:07:13 +0800505_iso-8859-1 yom huledet sameach! chazak ve'ematz! Shirley Atlas ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, 28 July 2000 4:10 AM Subject: happy birthday habonet



> Habonet is 5 years old today. > > whew! > > --brian > > >

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 8742 62 20_Re: The Peace Summit11_Clive Rosen21_clive.rosen@tesco.net31_Fri, 28 Jul 2000 13:44:57 +0100663_iso-8859-1 Arriving at peaceful settlements of longstanding and intractable disputes is not only about negotiation, it is about reframing peoples' attitudes towards each other and towards the conflict. This process concludes with the acceptance of concessions on both sides, and the shifting of entrenched positions. Judging from the process in Northern Ireland, it seems to require, amongst other things, time. What was once totally unthinkable, if successfully reframed becomes, if not acceptable, at least bearable. The time it takes, and heartbreak it causes, seem to be unavoidable components of the process. The hiatus is a period of great risk to the [...] 8805 96 11_forethought11_Phil Safier17_psafier@elixa.com31_Fri, 28 Jul 2000 08:01:45 -0600 8902 21 16_Habonet Birthday0_29_benjamin_laden@peoplesoft.com31_Fri, 28 Jul 2000 10:15:43 -0400341_us-ascii

Congratulations to everyone who has kept this up and running for 5 years. Many old friends found each other through this medium. and the renewal of old friendships is invaluable. Ben PS - I need to place the word Fuck somewhere in this posting since I have a reputation to maintain. So, Happy Fuckin' Birthday Habonet. [...] 8924 18 15_Re: forethought0_17_Shulansid@aol.com29_Fri, 28 Jul 2000 10:55:23 EDT347_US-ASCII MAZAL TOV TO EMMA AND HANK

AND TO QUOTE SHIMON DJIGAN " ICH HOB GEHAT A BRIS, UND ES FELT MICH GORNIT"

Shula

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 8943 150 20_Re: The Peace Summit13_Yuval Warshai16_warshais@tir.com31_Fri, 28 Jul 2000 11:51:52 -0400586_iso-8859-1 It is very heartening to read such clear minded analyses of the realities of peace processes as the one Clive Rosen has posted on Habonet. Thank you very much, and kol hakavod. I endorse every word of it.

Clive's posting was in reply to Norm Kane's reaction. Norm's reaction is also very understandable, and his heartbreak and disappointment must be shared by many of us ("those whose desire for peace is greater than their propensity for mistrust or their urge for retribution" as Clive so aptly put it) who will always be squarely on the Peace Camp. One of the [...] 9094 205 15_Re: forethought18_Abba & Dvora Caspi16_adcaspi@home.com31_Fri, 28 Jul 2000 11:53:47 -0400482_iso-8859-1 Have you thought about Tanglewood? ----- Original Message ----- From: Phil Safier To: habonet@shamash.org Sent: Friday, July 28, 2000 10:01 Subject: forethought



We, Emma Raymont and Hank Albert have become first time parents. Our beautiful, 8 pound-9 ounce, gorgeous baby boy arrived on Monday night July 24th in Doylestown Hospital at 10:43 pm. Everyone is worn out after a long and arduous delivery, but we will be re-energized in time for the bris [...] 9300 71 36_Another must for young Habonim alums0_15_NEVETS2@aol.com29_Fri, 28 Jul 2000 12:29:15 EDT427_US-ASCII Subject: Joshua Venture Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 14:48:32 -0400 From: Anat Youdkes





Dear Jewish Environmental Activists,

Joshua Venture is a brand new organization supporting innovative projects and young leaders in the Jewish community. Please help us spread the word nationally by forwarding this e-mail to anyone who might be interested in what we're doing. Thanks! [...] 9372 101 22_Habonim jobs in Boston0_15_NEVETS2@aol.com29_Fri, 28 Jul 2000 15:07:25 EDT937_US-ASCII

THESE are two very cool sounding jobs!!! Know anyone in Boston?

Love, Abby



Abigail B. Weinberg, TZEDEC Organizer

The Shefa Fund

215/483-4004 x211(phone) 215/483-4429 (fax)

aweinberg@shefafund.org



-----Original Message-----

From: Nahma Nadich [mailto:nnadich@jcrcboston.org]

Sent: Friday, July 28, 2000 8:42 AM

To: 'Sue Fendrick'; mojo210al@aol.com; bartson@ujc.edu;

aazriel@uswest.net; saulberman@aol.com; Hboothgo@aol.com;

rabbifred@aol.com; dushoff@juno.com; lfein@bellatlantic.com;

sfingeroth@jws.org; rabbiwgh@aol.com; zimmhornf@aol.com;

rabbijacobs@koltikvah.org; ajoseph@shefafund.org; hjkrav@aol.com;

evelys@aol.com; David Mallach; amerow@I-bob.com; joffel@aol.com;

csa@uahc.org; jsaltzman@jws.org; dsaperstein@uahc.org;

soffin@planet.net; savorspan@aol.com; julie@jfjustice.org; [...] 9474 98 66_from Jerusalem Post - Don't expect to see this in any report (fwd)16_Sharon Weissbach18_sgweis01@iglou.com37_Fri, 28 Jul 2000 15:08:02 -0400 (EDT)494_US-ASCII

Saudi paper blasts Arafat's failure at Camp David By Douglas Davis

LONDON (July 28) - The editor of the leading Saudi-owned daily, Asharq al-Awsat, yesterday launched a blistering attack on Palestinian Authority Chairman Yasser Arafat for his refusal to strike a deal at Camp David.

The attack, coming from one of the most important newspapers in the Arab world, is thought to be particularly significant, as it is likely to reflect official Saudi thinking. [...] 9573 20 26_Congrats without vulgarity0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Sat, 29 Jul 2000 01:24:36 EDT526_US-ASCII As one of the "Jewish Mothers " of the net- I would like to extend a hearty Mazal Tov to Hank and Emma on the birth of their son! And to Brian Cooper et al. have kept this site going so that we - who have been "wandering" for so many years- have had the opportunity to reunite with our chevre.and have the opportunity to spend time with kindred spirits and rekindle old friendships...I just don't find it clever or constructive to temper good feelings with vulgarity and I, personally, am a little offended. Sue [...] 9594 88 44_Support PM Barak and keep the momentum going0_15_NEVETS2@aol.com29_Sat, 29 Jul 2000 01:30:26 EDT595_US-ASCII Chevre, Shabat Shalom,

I say send an Email supporting this initiative for Peace. This message is addressed to those Knesset members working for Peace listed below so you, too, can Email them easily. Email addresses for most Knesset members can be found at http://www.knesset.gov.il/knesset/engframe.htm (under Email to MKs )

We Labor Zionists must be heard loud and clear saying, "Yes, we understand the kinds of compromises necessary on Jerusalem to achieve peace and we are solidly behind you, Prime Minister Barak, in your efforts to negotiate those compromises". [...] 9683 34 30_Re: Congrats without vulgarity8_JON BAUM19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il31_Sat, 29 Jul 2000 10:15:31 +0300568_iso-8859-1 Ben, now look what you've done. You bad boy. Go sit in the corner. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, July 29, 2000 8:24 AM Subject: Congrats without vulgarity



> As one of the "Jewish Mothers " of the net- I would like to extend a hearty > Mazal Tov to Hank and Emma on the birth of their son! And to Brian Cooper et > al. have kept this site going so that we - who have been "wandering" for so > many years- have had the opportunity to reunite with our chevre.and have the [...] 9718 16 35_Re: Habonet Birthday with vulgarity0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com29_Sat, 29 Jul 2000 07:11:19 EDT434_US-ASCII I completely agree with Sue, why someone had to send that e-mail about genitalia I will never understand. I have, and always will, be offended by genitalia. So please cut all that genitalia talk in the future.

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 9735 17 28_Another Wonderful Grandchild0_15_HHaklay@aol.com29_Sat, 29 Jul 2000 07:33:51 EDT376_US-ASCII Once again I'm happy to announce the birth of Lily Rivka Haklay, born on July 28 to Kathy and Gonen Haklay. Ben Haklay is happy too.

Savta Chana

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 9753 25 32_Re: Another Wonderful Grandchild11_Noam Stopak26_n.stopak@scienceserver.com31_Sat, 29 Jul 2000 08:01:56 -0400488_us-ascii

HHaklay@aol.com wrote:

> Once again I'm happy to announce the birth of Lily Rivka Haklay, born on July > 28 to Kathy and Gonen Haklay. Ben Haklay is happy too. > > Savta Chana

Once again? Don't tell me she's born again? :-)

Mazel Tov.

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 9779 121 15_re: forethought12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Sat, 29 Jul 2000 18:52:31 +0200541_iso-8859-1 HEBREW FEMINIST POETS It's not a girl thing

"RACHEL STANDS BEFORE THE HOLY ONE" Lamentations Rabbah, Proem 24 "Creator of the World, it is clear to you that your servant Jacob loved me greatly and worked seven years for my father so he could have me. And when seven years had passed and it was time for our marriage, my father tricked him with my sister. It was hard on me, since I knew about the trick. And I told my husband, gave him signs so that he could tell the difference between my sister and me and my father [...] 9901 29 22_To every thing........0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Sat, 29 Jul 2000 14:06:52 EDT606_US-ASCII In a message dated 7/29/00 8:44:08 AM Pacific Daylight Time, amriv@netvision.net.il writes:

<< ############################################## Phil, As Ben Laden would say: "don't fuck around with the circumcision".

Amnon Hadary >> I am not a prude, but I would like to point out the fact that in this case, Amnon's use of "fuck" is very poignant. What I was trying to get across is the fact that we must have respect for the words we use in the context in which they are used. In a congratulatory-personal message, if we cannot find respect in the words we use, how can we find [...] 9931 39 41_Re: seeking examples of hateful education13_Michael Livni21_ml-lotan@zahav.net.il31_Fri, 28 Jul 2000 17:31:03 -0700432_US-ASCII I am not an Arabist. For general examples of the Arab Press refer to Arie Stav. Peace: The Arabian Caricature - published by Gefen: www.israelbooks.com Did yoy try the info division Israeli embassy?

---------- >From: n.stopak@scienceserver.com (Noam Stopak) >To: Habonim Dror Alumni Virtual Machaneh >Subject: seeking examples of hateful education >Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 08:45:07 -0400 > [...] 9971 38 41_Re: seeking examples of hateful education13_Pearl Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Thu, 27 Jul 2000 23:55:34 +0300367_iso-8859-1 I would think that the Israel Embassy would have such examples. Contact the Hasbara dept. of the Embassy as a first try. pearl ----- Original Message ----- From: Noam Stopak To: Habonim Dror Alumni Virtual Machaneh Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2000 3:45 PM Subject: seeking examples of hateful education [...] 10010 46 41_Re: seeking examples of hateful education11_Noam Stopak26_n.stopak@scienceserver.com31_Sat, 29 Jul 2000 16:36:48 -0400638_us-ascii Thank you Pearl and Michael for pointing me to the Embassy.

Still, I find it telling that for all the hue and cry that goes on on this list about the evils of the Palestinian educational system, nobody can point to a single concrete example.

Shabbat Shalom,

Noam

Pearl Skolnik wrote:

> I would think that the Israel Embassy would have such examples. Contact the > Hasbara dept. of the Embassy as a first try. > pearl > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Noam Stopak > To: Habonim Dror Alumni Virtual Machaneh > Sent: Thursday, July 27, [...] 10057 26 41_Re: seeking examples of hateful education0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Sat, 29 Jul 2000 20:13:05 EDT579_US-ASCII In a message dated 7/29/00 1:39:22 PM Pacific Daylight Time, n.stopak@scienceserver.com writes:

<< till, I find it telling that for all the hue and cry that goes on on this list about the evils of the Palestinian educational system, nobody can point to a single concrete example. >> All you have to do is look at the filmography- little kids sporting rifles and training as terrorists- What about the hue and cry about the kids' tv show from last year that was talked about on the net????--- There are plenty of concrete examples- You just have to go to the [...] 10084 17 32_Re: Another Wonderful Grandchild0_15_HHaklay@aol.com29_Sat, 29 Jul 2000 20:23:14 EDT353_US-ASCII I was too happy to notice the grammatical mistake. Seems life I've made a lot of announcements in the last 2 years.

Chana

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 10102 34 41_Re: seeking examples of hateful education11_Noam Stopak26_n.stopak@scienceserver.com31_Sat, 29 Jul 2000 20:34:58 -0400459_us-ascii So what was the name of the show? I'd go to dejanews and look for talk on usenet about it, but you haven't provided enough info for me to do a decent search.

My point is that there is a lot of anecdotal talk but nobody can cite actual examples. On the otherhand, everyone here dismissed the article that was posted here where the Palestinians cited some pretty horrendous stuff from the midrash. Need to fight hard facts with hard facts. [...] 10137 16 41_Re: seeking examples of hateful education0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Sat, 29 Jul 2000 21:05:58 EDT442_US-ASCII Pearl- HELP!!--There was a children's show which aired on Palestinian TV last year in which a child of four or five talked about killing Israelis???? This might help Noam--I - in my old age- just can't remember....sue

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 10154 41 19_Re: Death of a mag?0_17_JackNusan@aol.com29_Sat, 29 Jul 2000 23:01:38 EDT586_US-ASCII I agree with Eli D that it is sad that Response magazine is dead. I'll have to tell Bill (aka William) Novak. It was a true pioneer in the Jewish "countercultural" movement, a movement I was proud to be part of--my book JEWISH RADICALISM contained several classic essays from Response and is available from The Spencer PRESS or direct from me--the book, that is, not the magazine. The cost for the book is $10.00 plus $2.00 postage. Just send me your shipping address. Mine is The Spencer Press, 9 Tudor Terrace, Suite 2, Newton (Auburndale), Mass. 02466, USA; fax: (617) [...] 10196 17 30_Re: habonim camp in wisconsin?0_17_JackNusan@aol.com29_Sat, 29 Jul 2000 23:23:02 EDT323_US-ASCII If Dylan went to a Habonim Camp. that's big news! But I don't think Herzl was a Habonim camp. Yad Ari which later people went to Midwest Camp Habonim, then Tavor was Habonim but Herzl I don't think was--but I'm checking sources in Milwaukee to be sure. But Dylan at camp....mmmmm, interesting...Jackie Porter [...] 10214 136 15_Re: forethought11_Phil Safier17_psafier@elixa.com31_Sun, 30 Jul 2000 00:46:11 -0600527_us-ascii Dear Amnon,

Unfortunately the poetry, if so intended, failed to counter the anti-mutilation argument for me. Parse it for me so I can catch your drift.

Phil (who digs you citing Ben Laden)

>The circumcision hurts. >As in the Torah, in the story of Shechem and Jacob's sons, We bear the >pain all our lives. What are we doing here, returning with this pain? >-- Jews in Eretz Yisrael, Yehuda Amichai > >Phil, >As Ben Laden would say: "don't fuck around with the circumcision". > >Amnon Hadary [...] 10351 32 3_Nu?0_18_Rachelbern@aol.com29_Sun, 30 Jul 2000 03:46:17 EDT540_US-ASCII Just checking to see if something is wrong with my connection; I've send 2 messages to Habonet that haven't shown up on-list, since Wednesday the 26th, with the following EXCITING announcement:

<
In a message dated 7/29/0 10:02:17 PM, you wrote:

>there is a very good video >made of it.

Where is this video? Who made it? How is it accessible? Thanks for answering if you are/were involved.

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 10406 896 7_Various15_Leo Diesendruck18_leodie@isdn.net.il31_Sun, 30 Jul 2000 13:03:06 +0200 11303 21 15_Re: forethought0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Sun, 30 Jul 2000 13:23:26 EDT508_US-ASCII In a message dated 7/29/00 11:46:30 PM Pacific Daylight Time, psafier@elixa.com writes:

<< "[t]here are no valid medical indications for circumcision in the neonatal period." >>

But they didn't exclude the "medical indications" in adolescence and adulthood?? OY! :) Sue

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 11325 25 11_Re: Various0_15_DebALev@aol.com29_Sun, 30 Jul 2000 13:50:22 EDT397_US-ASCII



I received an email with an attachment from Leo; it was just an attachment, with no explanation in the email itself.

Please do not send attachments...not all of us can get them, and I normally do not open them without knowing what they are for safety's sake.

Most such stuff can be copied and pasted into a regular email, and that would be much better. [...] 11351 30 26_Re: happy birthday habonet0_14_KBob24@aol.com29_Sun, 30 Jul 2000 19:20:43 EDT555_US-ASCII In a message dated 7/27/00 4:12:42 PM Eastern Daylight Time, BCooper@descartes.com writes:

<< Habonet is 5 years old today. >>

I just got back from a business trip and am catching up on the Habonet exchanges of the past week, so excuse my delay.I want to join others in thanking Brian in particular for maintaining Habonet and successfully moderating the forum in the spirit of the movement. Sometimes we forget that Internet-based institutions need care and feeding like brick and mortar ones, and Brian has done a great job. [...] 11382 21 13_It's too easy0_29_benjamin_laden@peoplesoft.com31_Sun, 30 Jul 2000 23:20:46 -0400463_us-ascii

YSAE GNIGKCUF OOT S'TI Don't worry, I won't write in again until the 10th birthday of Habonet, and the 5th birthday of all these babies being born... that is unless Liberhawke insults my mother again. Outta here. Ben Laden



------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 11404 21 42_correction to Phil's medical 'information'11_Judy Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Mon, 31 Jul 2000 00:35:48 -0400430_us-ascii Dear Phil-

The foreskin is almost never fused to the glans at birth or during the neonatal period. It doesn't always happen, but when it does, it happens later in infancy.

Warmly- Judy Gelman

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 11426 611 8_Various215_Leo Diesendruck18_leodie@isdn.net.il31_Mon, 31 Jul 2000 10:52:04 +0200732_iso-8859-8 I am pasting in the two articles I mentioned previously.















IN THIS WEEK'S FORWARD July 28, 2000

News

As Israel Mulls Collapse of Mideast Summit, U.S. Jews Face End of Illusions on Jerusalem





EDITORIAL No Time for Mourning

The collapse of the Camp David summit should occasion sober, tough-minded reflection on the part of Israelis and their supporters around the world. There is no getting around the fact that the Israeli-Palestinian negotiating process has hit a wall. A high-stakes gambit by two exhausted democratic leaders, Bill Clinton and Ehud Barak, was upended by a wily old warrior chieftain with more [...] 12038 34 15_Re: forethought12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Mon, 31 Jul 2000 17:40:06 +0200607_us-ascii

Shalom Phil, You wrote: "Unfortunately the poetry, if so intended, failed to counter the anti-mutilation argument for me. Parse it for me so I can catch your drift."



If forced to choose between forethought and hindsight I prefer the former. Call it my sexual orientation :) You probably haven't forgotten that I also like wordplay. But here, too, when you come right down to it, I prefer foreplay to wordplay, the first can lead to nice things. That's why I offered my advice about not fucking around with circumcision. Now, to be serious, (I double in brass and can be [...] 12073 121 21_Palestinian education13_Pearl Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Sun, 30 Jul 2000 20:10:40 +0300558_windows-1255 I sent you to the embassy for information because we in Israel are almost daily aware of the hate education through pictures of children training with guns, burning of Israeli flags, and various articles devoted to the subject. I do not collect them in order to send them on to people. Just because I can not give you the name of a particular school or the name of the books doesn't mean it does not exist. I spoke to a chaver knesset who told me that hundreds of Palestinian textbooks were brought in for their perusal (a committee of the [...] 12195 66 41_Re: seeking examples of hateful education13_Pearl Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Sun, 30 Jul 2000 21:16:13 +0300540_iso-8859-1 Sue, I did not see the program, just heard about it. I think the program that I saw which made the most impression on me -- and which is IMPOSSIBLE to forget -- was the one showing Palestinian Arabs training in Syria) to kill Israelis: they first had to learn how to kill puppies by beating their brains out against the rocks. They also had to eat snakes live. I guess this was meant to strengthen their resolve and not to flinch. Those of us who suffered attacks in the Intifada don't have to see TV programs or read books [...] 12262 215 43_Re: An everlasting peace-Chabad and Racism.13_Pearl Skolnik24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Sun, 30 Jul 2000 22:13:49 +0300597_iso-8859-1 Sharon, You ask my definition of Zionism: I define it as aspiring to live in the Land of Israel. Of actually taking steps to fulfill this dream for oneself and one's family. At some point being a Zionist turns into a Pro-Israel stance. T'hila, the religious Zionist organization, recognizes this in a way: in order to belong to this organization you have to be actively and actually planning your physical Aliya to Israel within two years of joining. The organization then assists the potential oleh in every way it can to facilitate the person's aliya. I think that Zionism loses [...] 12478 86 41_Re: seeking examples of hateful education11_Noam Stopak26_n.stopak@scienceserver.com31_Mon, 31 Jul 2000 18:16:47 -0400531_us-ascii

I went to the Embassy site and the Ministry of Foreign Affairs site too, and searching for "Palestinian AND hate" or even "Palestinian AND Education" turns up nothing. I sent email to the ministry of education but have yet to hear back from them.

I'm not asking you to prove anything Pearl. I'm asking for help in raising the consciousness of those who read the major daily paper published in Washington DC. Personal anecdotes and vague rememberances of TV shows don't carry much weight in that forum. [...] 12565 51 11_RE: Zionism12_Fine, Sharon14_FineS@MLHS.ORG31_Mon, 31 Jul 2000 20:10:17 -0400420_- >From Merriam Webster's Collegiate Dictionary: an international movement orig. for the establishment of a Jewish national or religious community in Palestine and later for the support of modern Israel.

>From Cambridge International Dictionary of English: a political movement which had as its original aim the creation of a country for Jewish people, and which now works to help the development of Israel. [...] 12617 14 22_Presidential Elections9_Norm Kane19_normk@earthlink.net31_Mon, 31 Jul 2000 19:50:00 -0700242_us-ascii Moshe Katsav?????

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------=