1 SHAMASH.ORG /usr/www/wwwhc/listserv/archives/habonet June 2000 2 85 24_Re: Changes at the kotel0_15_NEVETS2@aol.com28_Thu, 1 Jun 2000 01:23:55 EDT331_US-ASCII

In a message dated 6/1/00 12:11:28 AM, Amnon writes:

<> [...] 88 33 29_Re: Will Gilboa Go Down again11_Norman Kane19_normk@earthlink.net31_Wed, 31 May 2000 23:09:02 -0700305_us-ascii It is a funny coincidence that just today in the mail I received an appeal for the Gilboa Annual Fund. They sent along a list of last years' donors a total of 41 individuals and families. That's it just 41 and over half in the smallest contribution category, but at least its was something. [...] 122 90 35_Gilboa's struggle - Habonim reality0_15_NEVETS2@aol.com28_Thu, 1 Jun 2000 02:11:55 EDT631_US-ASCII Chevre & Batel, shalom!

First I want that everyone should know that Batel is not simply a Gilboa parent. She is their chief recruiter in the San Francisco area (volunteer) and so can claim a little more kavod for the success that Gilboa has had to date. Problems not withstanding.

The seven Habonim machanot in North America are independent organizations who do voluntarily agree to operate under a common Habonim Dror policy such as salary scale, chinuch program, etc. These policies are developed by the Movement, but must be ratified by the Machanot through their representatives to the Habonim Dror [...] 213 36 41_Don't count those kotel chickens just yet22_Ilan and Lorrie Israel24_ilanori@netvision.net.il31_Thu, 01 Jun 2000 10:20:29 +0300597_us-ascii >From this mornings Ha'aretz:MKs vote to jail women Wall worshippers - by Gideon Alon..[.A bill setting a seven-year jail sentence for women who pray at the Western Wall plaza and wear prayer shawls, blow the shofar or read aloud from the Torah, was passed yesterday by the Knesset plenum in its preliminary reading. The bill, sponsored by Yakkov Litzman (United Torah Judaism), came in response to a Supreme Court ruling last week allowing the Women of the Wall group to conduct public prayers at the Wall. "The Western Wall plaza will be divided into a men's section and a women's [...] 250 33 58_Habonim-Dror Convention Resolution on Palestinian Refugees15_Nechemia Meyers32_rrmeyers@wisemail.weizmann.ac.il31_Thu, 01 Jun 2000 12:51:07 +0300583_US-ASCII Shalom Chevre, I hope you will excuse me if I comment upon some very old news, which I am doing because it has only now come to my attention. I refer to the resolution on Palestinian reugees adopted at last year"s Habonim-Dror convention by a substantial majority. The resolution calls on the State of Israel "to recognize the right of Palestinian refugees to return to their former homes." This is in conflict not only with my own views, but also those of Israelis across the entire political spectrum, with the exception of a few far-left Jews and most Israeli Arabs [...] 284 31 6_stones16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Thu, 01 Jun 2000 08:33:48 -0400604_us-ascii Amnon has perceptively identified the problem of the kotel as one of our reaching back to our idol-worshipping ancestors, so much so that we need to worship stones even if they were only building blocks! Might there not be a market in this for some entrepreneurially-minded soul in the manufacture and sale of mini-building blocks for every Jewish home, so that one could have worship stones in the home? Sort of an adult accompaniment for our childrens' wooden toy blocks. Only kids know that these blocks are for play :) Actually, there has been a sideline spin-off business from worship [...] 316 28 23_Re: HABONET digest 15490_17_Llamamint@aol.com28_Thu, 1 Jun 2000 09:25:00 EDT547_US-ASCII hi steve even though this was not the point of the notes written and there was a political discussion going on-- i am writing because you were the first time i have heard mention of SHlomo Carlebach in a HAbonim setting, and living in NY and an occasional attendee of services at "his" shul here, and having read a biography on him - i have been in great disbelief that my HAbonim upbringing didnt involve this wonderful man who seemed so in sync with Habonim style (or maybe he has "too" much focus on religion for Habonim - i have [...] 345 41 41_Re: The Six Day War and Keeping Territory0_13_JLCAA@aol.com28_Thu, 1 Jun 2000 11:05:54 EDT610_US-ASCII I made Aliya to Gesher Haziv ahead of my garin (Etgar) immediately following the 6 Day War. My recollections about that period are somewhat, although not altogether different from what has appeared here. It was a period of heady jubilation. Jubilation that there weren't more deaths (although the losses were indeed significant), that we had captured Jerusalem and it was whole again, and that the war had taken only 6 days. I also remember waiting. Waiting for Egypt, Jordan and Syria to come to the negotiating table and sue for peace in order to get their captured territory back. Palastinian [...] 387 26 12_Re: Rak kach7_Greener25_ddwgreen@netvision.net.il31_Fri, 02 Jun 2000 20:57:26 +0300281_us-ascii We spent a couple of days in Tzfat over Pesach, and went looking for the grave of my husband's distant relation - Dov Gruner. (Although he was hanged in Acco, it seems the British buried him and the others hanged with him in Tzfat to prevent further unrest in Acco.) [...] 414 32 17_Re: Dov's zionism12_Dov Liberman16_DLiberman@UH.EDU37_Thu, 01 Jun 2000 13:21:37 -0500 (CDT)409_us-ascii I tried and couldn't get it accomplished. Can someone tell me, step by step, how.

Thanks, dov



>In a message dated 5/31/00 1:53:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time, DLiberman@UH.EDU >writes: > ><< My good friend, Aliya, has warned me again about posting too many >messages. >> > >Dov, > >If you read ALL your mail first, you can condense ALL your responses into one >message. > > > [...] 447 22 17_Re: Dov's zionism0_18_Rachelbern@aol.com28_Thu, 1 Jun 2000 14:26:05 EDT365_US-ASCII << I tried and couldn't get it accomplished. Can someone tell me, step by step, how.

Thanks, dov >>



Shirley, you jest?

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 470 36 6_Gilboa0_14_cbma@erols.com31_Thu, 01 Jun 2000 23:19:22 -0400570_us-ascii I have to tell you that a machaneh grows by word of mouth more than money thrown after advertising. And nothing gets those mouths working like a good summer. A good summer is different things to different people.

My son Theo's best summer was his first. For various reasons, there were very few (70, 80?) chanichim at camp. There were 3 amelim and my goddaughter had a tzrif, madricha, and madatz to herself as the sole amela. The boys took all the empty beds, covered them with blankets and had a permanent fort in the middle of the tzrif. Shichva [...] 507 60 10_Re: Gilboa11_Batel Libes25_batel_libes@earthlink.net31_Thu, 01 Jun 2000 20:37:36 -0700556_us-ascii Hi, I am happy to receive as many replies as I have.

A great deal of work has been done in communicating directly with people. However, when all the other Jewish camps advertise, if we want to attract any of the potential chanichim, we need to reach the same audience. Word of mouth goes only so far when you are up against camps that have become part of the Jewish culture in the area. Also, unlike Galil, Mosh and Na'aleh which are somewhat local in nature, Gilboa spreads the entire state of California and the bulk of the West and [...] 568 77 10_Re: Gilboa18_Floyd Glen-Lambert25_glenlambert@earthlink.net31_Thu, 01 Jun 2000 22:33:23 -0700561_us-ascii I just caught the debate on Gilboa. Though I have not been involved with the Camp Committee this year, as the former president of the Camp Committee I think it is important to recognize that Gilboa is still a new venture. We began the process of resurrecting Gilboa six summers ago. Since that time we have been had five successful summers at three different camp sites. We have sent chanichim on MBI each year. We have had a madatz group at camp each summer and last summer for the first time we had madrichim who had actually attended Gilboa as [...] 646 35 49_Count chickens but beware of those hatching plots12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Fri, 02 Jun 2000 17:46:37 +0200546_iso-8859-1 Steve, A couple of days ago (rachmones, I can't keep up the pace :~ ) you asked Who are the "'big guys" you speak of? A Jewish bon mot indicates that tzadikim are lucky because their work is done for them by others. Yesterday Lorrie posted a quote from Ha'aretz which can serve as my answer; (see, you always suspected that I was a tzadik): MKs vote to jail women Wall worshippers - by Gideon Alon. "A bill setting a seven-year jail sentence for women who pray at the Western Wall plaza and wear prayer shawls, blow the shofar or [...] 682 74 78_Fwd: Benefit screening of movie to help produce documentary on ethiopian jewry0_18_Judithb253@aol.com28_Fri, 2 Jun 2000 23:00:56 EDT17_US-ASCII

757 18 7_Re: dov0_18_Judithb253@aol.com28_Fri, 2 Jun 2000 23:32:24 EDT360_US-ASCII Is there anyone else 'out there' who thinks much of this argument might at least partially be a generational thing? Us old fogies who remember before '48 probably agree with Dov more than some of us may be willing to say out loud. We lived in frightening times, when the very existance of a Jewish state was dubious, and that's hard to get over. [...] 776 185 58_Habonim-Dror Convention Resolution on Palestinian Refugees15_Leo Diesendruck18_leodie@isdn.net.il31_Sat, 03 Jun 2000 07:42:33 +0200587_iso-8859-8 Some comments on Nechemia Meyers' posting of June 1:

1) We should acknowledge that the early Zionist slogan "A people without a land for a land without a people" did not represent the facts - there were people (i.e. "Palestinians") on the land and have continued to be. A lot of them were displaced by peaceful means and others as a result of wars which they (or, more correctly, their rulers) initiated. The clinic of my health service is located two blocks away on Rasiel St. (!) in Netanya and although they refer to themselves as Clinic 2014, Netanya, natives [...] 962 126 11_Monthly FAQ12_Jennifer Kay19_kay@elvis.rowan.edu31_Sat, 03 Jun 2000 02:32:01 -0400421_- Actually-from:BCooper@descartes.com

Hi Chevre,

Here is a reminder of the "essential" commands that you can use to configure your subscription to Habonet. I will post this monthly from now on. Please note -- The address for commands is: listproc@shamash.org whereas the address for posts to the list is: habonet@shamash.org If you need any help with any of it, send me an email: BCooper@descartes.com [...] 1089 49 23_Re: HABONET digest 155212_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Sat, 03 Jun 2000 11:02:33 +0200379_us-ascii Judy, You wrote: "Is there anyone else 'out there' who thinks much of this argument might at least partially be a generational thing? Us old fogies who remember before '48 probably agree with Dov more than some of us may be willing to say out loud. We lived in frightening times, when the very existence of a Jewish state was dubious, and that's hard to get over." [...] 1139 21 0_15_Nechemia Meyers32_rrmeyers@wisemail.weizmann.ac.il31_Sat, 03 Jun 2000 11:58:58 +0300452_US-ASCII Leo, Please permit me a brief response to your comments about the issue I raised in regard to the Habonim-Dror resolution on Arab refugees. It clearly calls for compensation (to which I agree) and their right to return to THEIR FORMER HOMES (to which I, and most Israelis anxious to avoid suicide, do not agree). That is clear enough. Nechemia Meyers, Rehovot (half of which is located on the site of what were Arab villages before 1948) [...] 1161 62 10_Re: Gilboa11_Judy Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Sat, 03 Jun 2000 08:41:32 -0400525_us-ascii Dear Batel-

I have to agree with Shelley about Word of Mouth, no matter how big your area is. People just don't send kids away for 4 weeks to a place because they see a little ad in the paper. Maybe if they read a whole article about some kid's fabulous, life changing summer--and since Jewish papers are often in need of filler, a great article about or by a chanich(a) in February can be helpful. Still, the best way to get people to camp is for well-placed parents to talk and talk and talk about it. [...] 1224 88 10_Re: Gilboa11_Batel Libes25_batel_libes@earthlink.net31_Sat, 03 Jun 2000 14:15:51 -0700413_us-ascii Hi, I agree that a small ad does not work as well as word of mouth. Still, you need to have those ears interested in listening. The Jewish camps in the S.F. Bay area advertise in the local parent press magazines, the Jewish Bulletin, general camp directories and via the temples they are associated with. If we can just get an initial word out, the rest of us parents are ready to step in and help. [...] 1313 251 28_Fwd: העברה: A Father's Story15_mendy mendelson24_frenchhorn81@hotmail.com29_Sun, 04 Jun 2000 14:22:34 PDT1052_-





>From: ציפי >To: רותי מנדלוביץ' , פיטר אאורבך >, נורית דגן , משפחת >קרן , מירי פרנק , >מירה פלד , יהודה יגר , > חוה בנאי , הלן זיו >, דינה ר.ז. , > ג'ודי בנאי , ברוך בן-דוד >, אלה וולושין , > אריאל שפירו , אהובה דורון >, אביב שחק , >"mendy mendelson" >Subject: העברה: A Father's Story >Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 00:01:34 +0200 >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Received: from [62.0.64.8] by hotmail.com (3.2) with ESMTP id >MHotMailBB040E41003BD820F3A63E004008B8FE0; Sun Jun 04 13:59:49 2000 >Received: from r4n7g4 (d3.mayan-baruch.knet.co.il [212.116.171.209])by >mail.mishkei.org.il (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id AAA28256;Mon, 5 Jun [...] 1565 104 6_Peace?12_Dov Liberman16_DLiberman@UH.EDU37_Mon, 05 Jun 2000 12:59:23 -0500 (CDT)663_us-ascii FYI from Dov



U.S. News Online

Editorial 6/12/00

By Mortimer B. Zuckerman/Editor-in-Chief

Using Hate Against Israel

Hope in the Middle East peace process was a good breakfast but is today a poor supper. The hope in the Oslo agreements was that a new generation of Arabs, seeing dramatic progress, would deal with the Israelis as neighbors instead of throwing rocks. Seven years later, Israel has transferred to Palestinian control virtually all of Gaza and half of the West Bank. Some 99 percent of the Palestinians live under Yasser Arafat's authority. Yet the Arabs are raising a new generation of haters [...] 1670 44 19_Re: Camp Songs Book0_17_JackNusan@aol.com28_Mon, 5 Jun 2000 20:33:37 EDT544_US-ASCII To all: Just returned from the terrif kumzitz in NYC June 3. Aliya and the others should be thanked for a great job! I taped a few of the songs but as a writer and editor, I would like to edit a book of songs called "Camp Songs" for a more generic audience and would include folk songs, communiust/socialist songs (like from the Spanish Civil War--Ken Bob had a great story about being in Spain talking to a guy whose father wasa communist in Spain hounded by Franco and all Ken could say was that he just "sang" about communists [...] 1715 70 18_political violence16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Tue, 06 Jun 2000 04:40:05 -0400472_us-ascii With all the back-and-forth about the pros and cons of Israeli territorial concessions, I am disturbed at the reports from Israel--undiscussed here--about new reports of assassination threats against Ehud Barak.

Concern has been voiced by mainstream Israeli political leaders and journalists from across the political spectrum. Worse, American Jewish communal figures have been remarkably quiescent, as though a subject not mentioned might disappear. [...] 1786 24 19_RE: Camp Songs Book12_Fine, Sharon14_FineS@MLHS.ORG30_Tue, 6 Jun 2000 10:08:18 -0400521_iso-8859-1



-----Original Message----- From: JackNusan@aol.com To: habonet@shamash.org Sent: 6/5/00 8:33 PM Subject: Re: Camp Songs Book

There is an on-line source for folk music lyrics and music, called the Digital Tradition Folksong Database, found at www.mudcat.org

-Sharon

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 1811 96 22_Re: political violence12_Dov Liberman16_DLiberman@UH.EDU37_Tue, 06 Jun 2000 12:25:28 -0500 (CDT)340_us-ascii Elihu has touched on the key issue facing Israel. What is the best way to insure security. Below is a peace by Daniel Pipes that summarizes the situation and the perspectives well. My approach is pretty similar to his. i pray that the left is correct in its assessment of the situation, but i have ddeep fears that it is not. [...] 1908 33 43_URGENT: Anyone in the Web hosting business?0_21_BCooper@descartes.com30_Tue, 6 Jun 2000 15:17:50 -0400495_iso-8859-1 Hey Chevre,

Shamash has decided to leave the web hosting business! Don't worry, this has no effect on Habonet but there is a Habonim Dror Foundation Web site which is about to be evicted and we are looking for a new home.

If anyone is in the business and would be willing to host this tiny, teenie, weenie site for us, it would amount to a very large mitzvah! If you are not, but know someone in the biz, that could potentially lead to many mitzvah points as well. [...] 1942 35 18_Jessie Bonn on NPR12_Jennifer Kay19_kay@elvis.rowan.edu31_Tue, 06 Jun 2000 15:59:11 -0400501_us-ascii Yesterday morning NPR had a story about women's prayer at the wall ... and Galil alumna Jessie Bonn was quoted.

You can listen to the whole story at the NPR archives:

Go to the archives for morning edition: http://www.npr.org/programs/morning/

for June 5, 2000 http://search.npr.org/cf/cmn/cmnpd01fm.cfm?PrgDate=6%2F5%2F2000&PrgID=3

And select the Jailed for Prayer Story

-- Jennie

---- Jennifer Kay Rowan University Computer Science Department [...] 1978 124 22_Re: political violence0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com28_Tue, 6 Jun 2000 16:17:11 EDT563_US-ASCII Whoever this guy is, he is pretty much ill informed. First both the left and the right supported the withdrawal from Lebanon. Only the timing and tactics were of issue. Therefore we pretty much ignore everything eles that this fellow and Dov have to say as uninformed at best and deliberatley misleading at worse. Secondly, the fact that Dov chose to put this reply underthe heading of "re :Political Violence" which was a posting about threats to Barak's life and threats of civil war in Israel gives an impression of how Dov stands on that issue. [...] 2103 54 22_Re: Jessie Bonn on NPR5_David18_david@friedart.com31_Tue, 06 Jun 2000 15:09:27 -0700386_US-ASCII Thanks for that link. I just listened to the story. I think that the bill pending in the Knesset asking for jail time for Jewish women praying righteously at The Wall is truly an outrage. I am ashamed to be connected, as a Jew, to such fundamentalist ideas. And distinguish myself, also as a Jew, by stating my disgust at such ideas and my opposition to this intolerance. [...] 2158 14 20_David's condemnation0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com28_Tue, 6 Jun 2000 18:42:47 EDT293_US-ASCII I think David is just trying to pick up some religious Jewish women.

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 2173 30 41_An open letter to Sam Flesher, et al.....0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com28_Tue, 6 Jun 2000 21:01:29 EDT539_US-ASCII Sam- ( and all chevre who feel free to "attack" people on this venue) I would personally appreciate it if you could find some way to disagree with Dov without attacking him as a person and "talking" to him and referring to him as if he were an idiot. (If you want to do that- then do it privately). Dov has a PhD. from Harvard, is a tenured professor, has a terrific wife and a pretty nice ex-wife, and two terrific "progeny."- He must be doing something right. Aside from that, his views on Zionism and the Jewish State are [...] 2204 92 22_Re: political violence0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com28_Tue, 6 Jun 2000 21:48:59 EDT557_US-ASCII Now Sue I am trying to get things in perspective. Below is the posting Dov replied to. It has to do with threats on the life of Ehud Barak. Given that Rabin was murdered and the same folks who made the threats last time are making them again the posting got my attention. I was more than a little surprised that Dov's repsonse seemed to by pass this issue and go straight to the issue of territorial concessions. Context is everything. Was Dov indirectly implying that the threats on the life of Barak were understandable? That is what I took [...] 2297 28 24_Re: David's condemnation5_David18_david@friedart.com31_Tue, 06 Jun 2000 20:55:09 -0700373_US-ASCII :-) Yeah, as long as they don't mind being with a godless Athiest such as myself! Know anyone?

David Friedman

> From: Richardrdsmith@aol.com > Reply-To: habonet@shamash.org > Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 18:42:47 EDT > To: habonet@shamash.org > Subject: David's condemnation > > I think David is just trying to pick up some religious Jewish women. > > [...] 2326 45 47_Re: URGENT: Anyone in the Web hosting business?11_Batel Libes25_batel_libes@earthlink.net31_Tue, 06 Jun 2000 22:15:25 -0700578_us-ascii Hi, The Israeli Consulate in S.F. is hosted by IBM. Maybe BigBlue will be kind enough and help out another organization associated with the color Blue (and what's a little red between friends?).

Batel

BCooper@descartes.com wrote:

> Hey Chevre, > > Shamash has decided to leave the web hosting business! Don't worry, this has > no effect on Habonet but there is a Habonim Dror Foundation Web site which > is about to be evicted and we are looking for a new home. > > If anyone is in the business and would be willing to host this tiny, teenie, [...] 2372 40 7_replies12_AviRosenberg18_avi@gezernet.co.il31_Wed, 07 Jun 2000 08:44:53 +0200558_us-ascii I think you've attached way too much significance to the re: subject line of Dov's letter. Many times people ignore the subject line of a letter, especially if it's part of a long thread, and throw in any kind of content. Other than that, this article by Daniel Pipes seems to me to be very simplistic. How can he attach absolute linkage to everything that happens in this part of the middle east? How does he know that everyone is going to do exactly what he expects from them? And why has over 50 years of continuing hostilities causing many [...] 2413 22 22_Re: political violence0_13_JLCAA@aol.com28_Wed, 7 Jun 2000 10:19:46 EDT472_US-ASCII Sam: Danny Pipes is a right-wing, conservative, Middle East specialist. He is not however, uninformed and has access to much of the political spectrum in Israel. Actually, I thought he described the situation well, despite his obvious bias and right-wing rhetoric. Do you pursue peace with all the pitfalls, dangers and chances that implies, or do you pursue a failed policy of stalemate - no peace-no war and try to rule/oppress a people in your midst. Avi [...] 2436 51 45_Re: An open letter to Sam Flesher, et al.....12_Dov Liberman16_DLiberman@UH.EDU37_Wed, 07 Jun 2000 10:37:15 -0500 (CDT)544_us-ascii Dear Susie,

Thanks for the defense, but Sam is not going to be impressed by my degrees or by the fact that you and Carol and Avi and Micha are terrific people. He called Pipes a fool, admitting that he did not know who he was. (He is one of the outstanding experts in the USA on the Middle East.) Nor is he going to apologize. The venom and anger he displays are real. I don't know what heppened to him, but he has turned into a bitter, self-righteous person who can't stand to be contradicted. He reaches for compliments, [...] 2488 57 11_Re: replies12_Dov Liberman16_DLiberman@UH.EDU37_Wed, 07 Jun 2000 10:52:37 -0500 (CDT)626_us-ascii Dear Avi Rosenberg,

Regarding your message (below) about Israelis being tired of hostilities and pain--Pipes' fear is that the Israelis are tired, but their enemies are not. His concerns for Israel's safety is genuine, despite his obvious hopes that the left is right and that the Arabs will cease their hositilities. Avi Lyon is correct that Pipes is a leading expert on the Middle East (although I think describing him as middle-of-the-road is more accurate than describing him as a right-wing), and like most experts he sees little indication from the Arab world that they want peace with Israel. This [...] 2546 60 45_Re: An open letter to Sam Flesher, et al.....12_Dov Liberman16_DLiberman@UH.EDU37_Wed, 07 Jun 2000 10:55:11 -0500 (CDT)548_us-ascii I deeply apologize for the message below that was sent to habonet. it was supposed to be a private message to Susie. Sam, and others, please forgive me.

Dov



>Dear Susie, > >Thanks for the defense, but Sam is not going to be impressed by my degrees >or by the fact that you and Carol and Avi and Micha are terrific people. He >called Pipes a fool, admitting that he did not know who he was. (He is one >of the outstanding experts in the USA on the Middle East.) Nor is he going >to apologize. The venom and anger [...] 2607 154 27_subject lines and Old Isaac0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com28_Wed, 7 Jun 2000 15:22:02 EDT534_US-ASCII Thanks Avi for your comments. Thank you all for your comments. I l read them all with interest. I want to share my feelings and thoughts and speak straight from the heart. Obviously Elihu's posting and subject line struck a very deep chord in me and perhaps for me it was the most significant posting I have seen on Habonet. Why have I focused so deeply on this posting and its subject line and why did the topic stir such deep passion in me? I don't care much one way or the other what Pipes says or whether Dov agrees [...] 2762 16 31_Re: subject lines and Old Isaac0_16_BERNSARA@aol.com28_Wed, 7 Jun 2000 16:59:45 EDT249_US-ASCII







------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 2779 43 45_Re: An open letter to Sam Flesher, et al.....0_15_DebALev@aol.com28_Wed, 7 Jun 2000 17:43:10 EDT373_US-ASCII Dov said:

Nor is he going to apologize. The venom and anger he displays are real. I don't know what heppened to him, but he has turned into a bitter, self-righteous person who can't stand to be contradicted. He reaches for compliments, but cannot take constructive criticism. (Micha told me what happened when Sam asked Micha to comment on his music.) [...] 2823 37 20_In defense of myself0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com28_Wed, 7 Jun 2000 19:17:08 EDT548_US-ASCII In a message dated 6/7/00 12:23:09 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Smfgrappa@aol.com writes:

<< might add that for me, (and again I speak only for myself ) my level of alarm has increased not decreased in light of the responses by Dov and Sue. I am sure that on a personal level Dov is a wonderful teacher and father and he has been a wonderful friend to me over the years, but the fine character of the leaders of Hamas on a personal and community level has been well documented. That is small comfort to those who die in a suicide [...] 2861 18 45_Re: An open letter to Sam Flesher, et al.....0_15_DebALev@aol.com28_Wed, 7 Jun 2000 19:53:46 EDT373_US-ASCII Now it's my turn to apologize. I sent my note before I read Dov's apology for mistakenly sending it to the whole list. God knows I've done the same thing, with disastrous effects.

In a way, I suppose, it makes some things much clearer. I think I've said before here that it's pretty obvious that some disagreements are about more than just the issues. [...] 2880 24 3_God0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com28_Wed, 7 Jun 2000 21:31:14 EDT572_US-ASCII This may succeed in changing the subject; I noticed that Sam used the term "G-d" in his last message. this is something I've never understood. The English language, in fact all written languages since the ancient Phoenicians, use an alphabet made up of symbols which represent certain sounds. Logically there is no difference between a dash and the letter o; it is just one symbol taking the place of another. The English language could just as easily have used that symbol for the letter oh as the symbol we do use. It would make more sense to just leave a [...] 2905 33 7_Re: God0_15_DebALev@aol.com28_Wed, 7 Jun 2000 21:55:27 EDT293_US-ASCII In a message dated 6/7/00 6:32:48 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Richardrdsmith@aol.com writes:

> The English language could > just as easily have used that symbol for the letter oh as the symbol we do > use. It would make more sense to just leave a blank than to write > G-d. [...] 2939 144 27_replies instead of t'shuvah12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Thu, 08 Jun 2000 09:14:05 +0200644_us-ascii I think that AviRosenberg is right on the mark (no, not that Mark,) as this longish but well-worth-reading reprint from the erev hag edition of Ha'aretz spells out.

Hag Sameah, Amnon Hadary

When they can smell peace in the air By Doron Rosenblum People are experiencing a feeling akin to deja-vu these days, and this is disingenuous to a certain extent. What's more, you can sense a slight trace of manipulation in the repeated comparisons between the present time and the period that immediately preceded the assassination of Yitzhak Rabin (including the rational, almost ballistic analysis given by Prime Minister [...] 3084 122 37_Fwd: Reunion of 4th Habonim Institute15_Nechemia Meyers32_rrmeyers@wisemail.weizmann.ac.il31_Thu, 08 Jun 2000 10:03:59 +03009_US-ASCII 3207 30 31_Re: replies instead of t'shuvah0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com28_Thu, 8 Jun 2000 03:17:57 EDT559_US-ASCII Pretty astute posting Amnon even if you did steal from the newspaper. Something to read and reread on Shvout. Makes me feel like we are at Sinai again. After all were'nt we all there the first time. As for Sussie her rejection of political violence is good enough for me. I hope others will join her in declaromg that we as Labor Zionist will not accept or resort to political violence and we will do whatever it takes to identify and expose those who covertly insert violence into their Agenda. Oh and yeh, Amnons posting poses a whole new set [...] 3238 42 31_Re: replies instead of t'shuvah0_14_BUBELE@aol.com28_Thu, 8 Jun 2000 03:26:50 EDT629_US-ASCII Amnon---I generally read what you say AND what you recommend reading quite carefully, since I respect your bright and perceptive mind and usually helpful insights and perceptions. This article is an all too accurate description of much of what is going on in OUR BELOVED iSRAEL from the extreme right through the also oppositely extreme left. Its accuracy is such that any current attempt at making an effective Peace Process result in an actual move towards a nonbelligerent and actual peace - virtually impossible among our frictioning and fractious people. This is a severely doubtful peace process when we Jews [...] 3281 18 31_Re: replies instead of t'shuvah0_14_BUBELE@aol.com28_Thu, 8 Jun 2000 03:29:40 EDT314_US-ASCII Amnon, sorry for the misspelling of your name!

Hag sameach, chaverim.

David

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 3300 459 35_Fw: cyberaction - change the world!13_Yehuda Riemer20_aminadav@urim.org.il30_Thu, 8 Jun 2000 14:19:23 +0200967_iso-8859-8

-----Original Message----- From: deborah nothmann To: aebid@barak-online.net ; barrydus@alaska.net ; sfreiman@netvision.net.il ; Lionel_Goldhill@compuserve.com ; myora@worldnet.att.net ; gldnblt@zahav.net.il ; marcandsher@bigfoot.com ; krolle@netvision.net.il ; lbrmn@interlog.com ; Fenris@aol.com ; garlik@mweb.co.za ; nothmann@fyi.net ; nowheat888@aol.com ; aminadav@urim.org.il ; zram@netvision.net.il ; crs2031@inforamp.net ; shaheenlina@hotmail.com Date: יום רביעי 31 מאי 2000 21:39 Subject: Fwd: cyberaction - change the world! [...] 3760 37 37_Lashon Hara--An apology and a goodbye12_Dov Liberman16_DLiberman@UH.EDU37_Thu, 08 Jun 2000 07:56:44 -0500 (CDT)544_us-ascii The Talmud Yerushalmi says that Lashon Hara is as bad as the three cardinal sins (idol worship, adultery, and murder) combined. It is not permitted to engage in Lashon Hara even with persons to whom one is very close.

Although the message I sent about Sam was intended to be a private one and was addressed to a person to whom I am very close, it was Lashon Hara nonetheless. That my computer "burped" and it became public by accident does not change the that the message should never have been composed or sent to anyone. [...] 3798 42 39_Re: Fw: cyberaction - change the world!0_15_DebALev@aol.com28_Thu, 8 Jun 2000 09:24:20 EDT637_US-ASCII OH NO NOT AGAIN!

I'm sure this was sent with all good intentions, BUT...

This petition has been making the internet rounds for a couple of years now, at least

Internet petitions are generally useless

The Brandeis student who started this (now graduated, of course) meant well, but Brandeis University itself issued a statement about this well over a year ago saying that the email addy had been closed and explaining why this internet petition was a well-intended idea but useless and suggested that instead, people contact Amnesty Int'l or any one of a number of organizations that actually DO [...] 3841 18 3_G-d16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Thu, 08 Jun 2000 10:02:33 -0400458_us-ascii Since we're now writing about how to spell the name of the ineffable, I thought to add a non-sequitur. Did anyone see the new film remake of that classic disaster flick "G-dzilla"? :) Summer's almost here folks. Wear sunscrean! ELIHU

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 3860 63 24_political violence redux16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Thu, 08 Jun 2000 10:06:33 -0400659_us-ascii The following post is taken from Israeline, the enews clipping service of Israel's New York consulate. Does the message speak for itself?

> INCITEMENT RHETORIC SOUNDED IN MEETING > > Moshe Feiglin, head of the movement "Zo Artzenu" which opposes the peace > process, said on Monday that those who cooperate with Government peace > policies will face "the same fate collaborators have faced throughout > history," YEDIOT AHARONOT reported. > Feiglin spoke at a meeting of right wing movements held at the Knesset, > attended by representatives of various extreme-right wing organizations. The > participants raised several suggestions for [...] 3924 91 41_Re: Fwd: Reunion of 4th Habonim Institute11_batya fromm18_fromm@inter.net.il31_Thu, 08 Jun 2000 17:10:11 +0300331_us-ascii Hi Nechemia, Thank you for sendingthe photo and the article. Regarding the latter, Edgar has some comments to make but right now he is suffering from a painful throat infection which began upon our return from the UK. So we have a very low-key Shavuot and wish you and the family a Chag Sameach, from Batya and Edgar [...] 4016 90 41_Re: Lashon Hara--An apology and a goodbye0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com28_Thu, 8 Jun 2000 11:10:43 EDT574_US-ASCII In a message dated 00-06-08 08:58:26 EDT, you write:

<< The Talmud Yerushalmi says that Lashon Hara is as bad as the three cardinal sins (idol worship, adultery, and murder) combined. It is not permitted to engage in Lashon Hara even with persons to whom one is very close.

Although the message I sent about Sam was intended to be a private one and was addressed to a person to whom I am very close, it was Lashon Hara nonetheless. That my computer "burped" and it became public by accident does not change the that the message should never have [...] 4107 25 7_Re: God22_Deborah M Tanzer-Cohen15_candeb@juno.com30_Thu, 8 Jun 2000 12:20:07 -0400593_- This G-d nonsense has been around for ages. The idea comes from not using God's name in vain, i.e. other than in prayer, which is why many people say HaShem as a substitute in non-prayer settings. But GOD is not God's name, so sticking a dash in it is as ill-educated a gesture as kissing a kipah when it falls to the ground ( which I saw a nursery school teacher do last week). Debbie ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, [...] 4133 27 7_Re: God0_18_Rachelbern@aol.com28_Thu, 8 Jun 2000 12:55:39 EDT415_US-ASCII << as ill-educated a gesture as kissing a kipah when it falls to the ground ( which I saw a nursery school teacher do last week). >>

Misbegotten falsehoods my teachers told me! Why do we kiss a siddur that falls, but not a kippah-- or is the siddur thing also just an ill-educated gesture? Next you're going to say that dropping a Torah scroll DOESN'T mean you have to fast for five (?) years? [...] 4161 52 26_Wear your hardhats anyway!0_15_NEVETS2@aol.com28_Thu, 8 Jun 2000 13:32:43 EDT658_US-ASCII Watch it all live on the LZA Robinson's Arch Kotel Cam. If your branch wants to sponsor the special Shavuot Kotel Cam edition it will cost only $............................

Chaver Steve, the dreamer ============================================================ ATTENTION ISRAEL LINE RECIPIENTS

Thursday, June 8, 2000

ULTRA-ORTHODOX, CONSERVATIVE OPTIMISTIC ON SHAVUOT PRAYER COMPROMISE

Ultra-Orthodox and Conservative movement representatives expressed optimism on Wednesday regarding a compromise intended to limit tension during the holiday of Shavuot which begins at sundown tonight, THE JERUSALEM POST reported. [...] 4214 35 41_RE: Lashon Hara--An apology and a goodbye12_Fine, Sharon14_FineS@MLHS.ORG30_Thu, 8 Jun 2000 13:47:46 -0400394_iso-8859-1 In a message dated 00-06-08 08:58:26 EDT, you write:

<< Our sages have said that one must distance himself from situations that tempt him to sin. Clearly my participation in Habonet has done just that. I am going to heed their advice and stop participating. I hope that some good an come from this inexperience in that it will cause others to be kinder to one another.>> [...] 4250 25 7_Re: God0_17_Geokat100@aol.com28_Thu, 8 Jun 2000 15:44:45 EDT547_US-ASCII I don't see a problem with kissing a fallen kippah as long as the behavior does not become obsessive and thereby devoid of meaning. Does the fact that we're not specifially instructed to do something deprive it of spiritual meaning?

I think dropping a torah means 40 days of fasting for everyone who was in the room at the time. My husband has wondered if you make a valiant effort to stop the torah from hitting the ground -- say, you make a dive for it but still miss -- do you still have to fast as long? (Incidentally, he [...] 4276 47 7_Re: God0_14_LHIAM1@aol.com28_Thu, 8 Jun 2000 16:17:45 EDT327_US-ASCII As the son of Hebrew School teacher, who "religiously" started each school year by "allowing" a siddur to fall to the ground and then NOT kiss it upon retrieving it, To the shock, dismay and eventual growth of her Great Neck students, I find it incumbent upon myself to speak up (here at least, if not in class). [...] 4324 25 7_Re: God0_17_Geokat100@aol.com28_Thu, 8 Jun 2000 16:37:21 EDT415_US-ASCII Hiam, I certainly see and basically agree with your point(s). I can see how things could get out of control (and how close such idolatry -- imbuing all sorts of objects with spiritual meaning -- comes to OCD). But I still wonder, if your kippah falls to the floor, is it not okay to take the moment as an opportunity to reflect on what is sacred? Or are we just to think "Oops, there goes my yamake"? [...] 4350 28 28_Re: political violence redux0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com28_Thu, 8 Jun 2000 16:42:44 EDT332_US-ASCII Yes the message is quite alarming Elihu. Chat rooms are chat rooms and people are likely to go on and on about the correct way to spell God on a listserve which is fine. I for one suggest we compromise on "George Burns" Blessed art thou George Burns who brings for laughter from a rock." ( I hope no one is offended ) [...] 4379 19 7_Re: God0_14_LHIAM1@aol.com28_Thu, 8 Jun 2000 16:50:43 EDT437_US-ASCII Kathy, Far be it from me to not think of SOME things as sacred. When I kiss my son I think of things sacred... I refuse to put that head covering in the same category...even IF it would help the Mets.

Hiam

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 4399 22 7_Re: God0_15_DebALev@aol.com28_Thu, 8 Jun 2000 18:59:53 EDT439_US-ASCII no state in the US has any laws on the books prohibiting driving barefoot.

Oh Rachel! I'm SO GLAD to hear that! That's my all-time favorite way to drive.

Love those bubbe-maisehs

Debbie



------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 4422 24 7_Re: God0_15_DebALev@aol.com28_Thu, 8 Jun 2000 19:31:13 EDT341_US-ASCII

I think dropping a torah means 40 days of fasting for everyone who was in the room at the time. My husband has wondered if you make a valiant effort to stop the torah from hitting the ground -- say, you make a dive for it but still miss -- do you still have to fast as long? (Incidentally, he is a barefoot driver ...) [...] 4447 29 7_Re: God18_Rita Katcher Susse20_rkatcher@bigfoot.com31_Thu, 08 Jun 2000 19:46:27 -0400526_us-ascii In the shul I attend the fast is done by different people each day for the 40 day period - folks in the congregation take turns so that responsibility is shared and no one person has to suffer.

Rita

DebALev@aol.com wrote:

> I think dropping a torah means 40 days of fasting for everyone who was in the > room at the time. My husband has wondered if you make a valiant effort to > stop the torah from hitting the ground -- say, you make a dive for it but > still miss -- do you still have to [...] 4477 24 7_Re: God0_15_Emabear@aol.com28_Thu, 8 Jun 2000 22:59:15 EDT416_US-ASCII In a message dated 6/8/00 1:18:30 PM Pacific Daylight Time, LHIAM1@aol.com writes:

As the son of Hebrew School teacher, who "religiously" started each school year by "allowing" a siddur to fall to the ground and then NOT kiss it upon retrieving it, To the shock, dismay and eventual growth of her Great Neck students, I find it incumbent upon myself to speak up (here at least, if not in class. [...] 4502 35 8_research16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Fri, 09 Jun 2000 00:01:39 -0400620_us-ascii The following was sent to me, and I pass it along here in case anyone on Habonet might be able to help on this project. ************************************************************** I am conducting research for a book on American Jewish youth and their cultures from 1945 to the late 1960s. In the interest of finding "voices" from that time I am interested in seeing letters written from camp to family and friends, letters received, or other types of reflections. The American Jewish Archive has some of the papers of Habonim and I have looked at newsletters, camp brochures, and minutes. I am eager to [...] 4538 45 12_Re: research11_Batel Libes25_batel_libes@earthlink.net31_Thu, 08 Jun 2000 21:56:08 -0700607_us-ascii Hi, Will the early '70s work, too?

Batel

Elihu D. Davison wrote:

> The following was sent to me, and I pass it along here in case anyone on > Habonet might be able to help on this project. > ************************************************************** > I am conducting research for a book on American Jewish youth and their > cultures > from 1945 to the late 1960s. In the interest of finding "voices" from > that time I > am interested in seeing letters written from camp to family and friends, > letters > received, or other types of reflections. The American Jewish [...] 4584 19 7_Re: God0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com28_Fri, 9 Jun 2000 08:28:00 EDT409_US-ASCII In a message dated 6/8/00 11:02:06 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Emabear@aol.com writes:

> And this is something to be proud of......................Hag Sameach > l'kulam, Ellen Yes

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 4604 70 23_My apology for inaction11_Judy Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Fri, 09 Jun 2000 10:11:40 -0400544_us-ascii Dear Dov-

I hope you will read this. I have known that I should have written to protest the tone of the discourse on Habonet earlier. I apology for my sin of omission. I hope it is not too late.

WHat you wrote about Sam may have been cruel but it is also true and we all know it. None of us can recall our words, especially on email. I know you regret that posting deeply and that personal answers to political disagreement are not your style, even though the attacks on you have been vicious and personal. I admire [...] 4675 45 11_Shame on us11_Judy Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Fri, 09 Jun 2000 10:08:41 -0400315_us-ascii Dear Sam, Dov and Friends-

In the year or so that I have been on Habonet, I don't think I have ever agreed with the politics of Dov's postings or disagreed with Sam's. However, I have read every one of Dov's postings and have learned from them, more than I learned from those who I agree with. [...] 4721 28 5_OPPS!11_Judy Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Fri, 09 Jun 2000 10:18:09 -0400328_us-ascii I made an editting error that significantly changes the meaning of what I wrote.

My posting should have read

" The attacks on Dov have being shameful, ugly and unkind. They are far MORE ugly, shameful and unkind than the emotional answer Dov wrote, whether or not it was meant for all of us or not." [...] 4750 42 17_behind the ritual12_Stan Goldman17_stan@inter.net.il30_Fri, 9 Jun 2000 09:10:21 +0200142_Windows-1252 once again members of list are filling my computer with comments on RITUAL and niot what is behind the ritual act. Enough already 4793 30 21_Re: behind the ritual0_18_Rachelbern@aol.com28_Fri, 9 Jun 2000 11:15:52 EDT606_US-ASCII Au contraire! Comments have included that what is behind kissing a fallen "symbol" (obviously, we all know the yarmulke is not actually divine) is to show respect for an item that has been divinely commanded, inspired, etc.

As a former Jewish Day Schooler with an avid interest in the inconsistencies and commingling of religions through history, I think it's not so bad to give kids some rituals that connect them, daily, personally, with so-called commands from our so-called God; as far as I have been able to discern, everyone I've ever met who went to Day Schools were later able [...] 4824 56 10_Misposting11_Judy Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Fri, 09 Jun 2000 12:11:38 -0400523_us-ascii Der Firends-

Sharon Fine let me know that I had sent my posting meant for Dov to all of you. Ah, the dangers of email. Although I might have worded it a little differently had I meant to post it publicly, I can't take it back so I won't try.

This whole exchange between Sam and Dov has sickened me. Sam is one of my childhood heroes. I was an amelah when he came on a visit and sang "Splendor Bridge" at Mosh. He was treated like our great hero and poet laureate, which of course he was. He was [...] 4881 87 15_RE: Shame on us9_Martin S.15_emskol@wans.net30_Fri, 9 Jun 2000 12:42:28 -0400349_iso-8859-1 Bravisima Judy Gelman. This post deserves reading and re-reading.

My understanding of the Labor Zionism I learned in Habonim (and my credentials are quite valid, thank you) had much to do with the concept of Chaverschaft. How could we proclaim a belief in egalitarianism and not practice absolute respect on a personal level? [...] 4969 16 13_Dov's defense0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com28_Fri, 9 Jun 2000 22:19:41 EDT393_US-ASCII I am one of those who questioned Dov's Habonim credentials. I was wrong to do so. If I promise not to do it again will you come back and make Habonet interesting again.

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 4986 19 2_hi12_Honor Family18_jnhonor@rcknet.com31_Fri, 09 Jun 2000 23:47:16 -0400465_us-ascii ...meant to email you earlier in the week. Even with the garage taking almost ten minutes to get my car out, I was home in Pomona by 2:05. Someone must have been watching to keep the state troopers out of my way.

Naomi Goldberg Honor

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 5006 17 21_Re: behind the ritual12_Stan Goldman17_stan@inter.net.il31_Sat, 10 Jun 2000 11:01:07 +0200447_iso-8859-1 I agree very much with Rachel's answer to my posting. It was an educated answer. What really bothers me is what is called "empty ritualism" There is a lot of that going on here in the "holy land" as well as other places.

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 5024 177 0_12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Sat, 10 Jun 2000 15:27:57 +0200607_iso-8859-1 Haverim, Haverot OK, since Shavuot is hag matan torah I'll try to offer a perush Rashi to Doron Rosenblum's seminal article. (But first I would like to enter a cautionary avuncular caveat which goes back to an earlier piece on "smoking the old rebbe's pipe.") As I see them, the issues we confront in Israel - and by extension the issues confronting Diaspora Jewry are a Jewish replay of the German kulturkampf of 1870's. There it was a conflict between civil government and religious authority with particular rancor over who would control education. Here in contemporary Israel it is much [...] 5202 23 3_Re:0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Sat, 10 Jun 2000 09:13:57 EDT367_US-ASCII In a message dated 6/10/00 5:25:52 AM Pacific Daylight Time, amriv@netvision.net.il writes:

<< am not a theocentric creature but an anthropocentric one; man - not God - is at the center of how I live my life, what I believe life's goal to be. >>

Dear Amnon- I am not so sure you really exclude one from the other...Chag Sameach :)...susie [...] 5226 21 21_Re: behind the ritual0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Sat, 10 Jun 2000 09:20:05 EDT548_US-ASCII Dear Stan- I had spent many hours in my youth in Hebrew High and Habonim expounding the psyco-social implications of "na'aseh v'nishmah"-- Just look at the actions of Chabad...Somewhere down the line in the "doing" one catches on to the meaning of it all...You can see the product of this in little children who do things over and over and then suddenly "get it". I don't know how many times I sang "The Star Spangled Banner" without really thinking about what the words meant until sometime in my adolescence!....chag sameach- susie [...] 5248 16 41_Re: Lashon Hara--An apology and a goodbye0_17_Shulansid@aol.com29_Sat, 10 Jun 2000 11:21:58 EDT286_US-ASCII DOV DO NOT REPEAT DO NOT LEAVE HABONET..........

SHULA

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 5265 27 10_Assad Dead11_David Ferri26_david-ferri@wordmaster.com31_Sat, 10 Jun 2000 10:52:10 -0500493_us-ascii Hi All,

CCN reported about an hour ago that Hafez Assad died within the last 24 hours. The State Department confirmed it about 30 minutes later.

Regards, David Ferri President Word Master, Inc. 320 Earls Ct. Deerfield, IL 60015 Ph: 847-948-9600 Fax: 847-948-9617 mailto:david-ferri@wordmaster.com Developers, come register in our consultants database on our Home Page at: http://www.wordmaster.com ================================================================== [...] 5293 15 14_Re: Assad Dead0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com29_Sat, 10 Jun 2000 12:05:40 EDT312_US-ASCII It could not have happened to a nicer guy. I am so happy he has gone to meet his maker.

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 5309 18 14_Re: Assad Dead12_Honor Family18_jnhonor@rcknet.com31_Sun, 11 Jun 2000 00:03:04 -0400380_us-ascii I understand that his son was being groomed to take over the family business. Does anyone know if this character is any saner than his father?

Naomi

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 5328 38 14_Re: Assad Dead11_Batel Libes25_batel_libes@earthlink.net31_Sat, 10 Jun 2000 21:14:23 -0700470_US-ASCII My understanding is that the VP is to take over the position. The problem at hand is that there are two VPs right now.

Batel



> [Original Message] > From: Honor Family > To: > Date: 6/10/00 9:02:46 PM > Subject: Re: Assad Dead > > I understand that his son was being groomed to take over the family > business. Does anyone know if this character is any saner than his > father? > > Naomi > > [...] 5367 18 14_Re: Assad Dead0_15_DebALev@aol.com29_Sun, 11 Jun 2000 00:18:09 EDT445_US-ASCII Last I heard, they changed the constitution (???) to allow someone as young as 34 to have the position. Just for his son, who is an opthalmologist and very popular. The talking heads are saying he's got it.

Debbie

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 5386 28 14_RE: Assad Dead14_Elliot Choueka24_elliot.choueka@bbc.co.uk31_Sun, 11 Jun 2000 05:20:38 +0100453_- That's pretty much what we're reporting.

> -----Original Message----- > From: DebALev@aol.com [SMTP:DebALev@aol.com] > Sent: Sunday, June 11, 2000 5:18 AM > To: habonet@shamash.org > Subject: Re: Assad Dead > > Last I heard, they changed the constitution (???) to allow someone as > young > as 34 to have the position. Just for his son, who is an opthalmologist > and > very popular. The talking heads are saying he's got it. > > Debbie > [...] 5415 19 16_Re: 5th Workshop0_16_Aborciah@aol.com29_Sun, 11 Jun 2000 03:35:00 EDT489_US-ASCII I've been asked by a computerless friend, Susie Klein (now Squire), to inquire about names, addresses, and any other information about the 5th Workshoppers and pass it on to her. Susie's husband, Saul, was on one of the last Institutes..pre-Workshop. Thanks, Anita

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 5435 30 14_Re: Assad Dead11_Mark Hammel18_mhammel@ulster.net31_Sun, 11 Jun 2000 15:05:20 -0400503_us-ascii Dear Richard,

I wonder what, if any, Labor Zionist or Jewish values are represented in your statement?

Yours,

Mark

At 12:05 PM 6/10/2000 EDT, you wrote: >It could not have happened to a nicer guy. I am so happy he has gone to meet >his maker. > > > >

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 5466 18 10_car rental0_16_SMG54321@aol.com29_Sun, 11 Jun 2000 15:42:57 EDT415_US-ASCII Hi folks: I am looking to rent a car in Israel from July 10 to 23rd, stick shift with air con, seats five. Anyone have any suggestions. Best deal so far is $460 from Budget.

--Steve G

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 5485 36 16_Re: 5th Workshop13_Michael Livni21_ml-lotan@zahav.net.il31_Sun, 11 Jun 2000 20:21:52 -0700399_US-ASCII Re: 5th Workshop Lucy Laufer (Langer) 5337 Willow Street, Vancouver V5Z3S2 Canada. Frank and Binky Segal - also in Vancouver Meir Horowitz - Kibbutz Kfar Hamaccabi Israel Ziffi Entin (Zippora Rokach) her husband works at the Hebrew U. Dewpt of History

---------- >From: Aborciah@aol.com >To: habonet@shamash.org >Subject: Re: 5th Workshop >Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 03:35:00 EDT > [...] 5522 302 24_Re: Amnon Hadary-Shavuot13_Michael Livni21_ml-lotan@zahav.net.il31_Sun, 11 Jun 2000 22:07:01 -0700587_utf-8 Shalom Amnon, and Habonet in General

I don't want to relate directly to what Amnon says except to question if he really is secular. (I don't think he is -- I think you can BELIEVE and be anthropocentric even though ecologically the latter is also a problematic term) In any case, I wish to put a "transparency" on top of Amnon's -- in particular regarding the "kulturkampf". Our "milchemet Tarbut" is really MULTI-DIMENSIONAL and Amnon has dealt with the one which is constantly in the headlines. It is not my intention to belittle that aspect of the problem -- rather [...] 5825 29 11_Mark Hammel9_Martin S.15_emskol@wans.net31_Sun, 11 Jun 2000 15:52:54 -0400511_iso-8859-1 Mark

It was great to see you at the kumsitz last week. I've spoken with my brother. Please email me privately at emskol@wans.net and I will send you his email address and vice-versa. He was pleased to hear from you and asked to be in touch.

Marty Skolnik

======================================= Martin Skolnik, MS Ed http://itom.fau.edu/mskolnik http://www.pcmartin.com mailto:mskolnik@fau.edu (FAU) mailto:emskol@wans.net (personal) ======================================= [...] 5855 22 10_Assad Dead11_Norman Kane19_normk@earthlink.net31_Sun, 11 Jun 2000 13:06:23 -0700414_us-ascii I don't know about Labor zionist or Jewish values but this guy was a totalitarian dictator, akin to Stalin, who murdered a reported 10,000 of his own people in Hama, and God knows how many others.

The only reason he was talking peace with Israel was because the Soviet Union disintegrated and left him without a military or monetary sugar daddy. Lets save our tears for people who deserve it. [...] 5878 18 14_Anachu Noladnu11_Norman Kane19_normk@earthlink.net31_Sun, 11 Jun 2000 13:07:39 -0700326_us-ascii Does anybody know the complete lyrics to this anthem from the world movement?

Thanks Norm Kane

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 5897 26 14_Re: Assad Dead0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com29_Sun, 11 Jun 2000 16:25:17 EDT292_US-ASCII In a message dated 6/11/00 3:05:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time, mhammel@ulster.net writes:

> Dear Richard, > > I wonder what, if any, Labor Zionist or Jewish values are represented in > your statement? > > Yours, > > Mark > None that I know of but maybe you can educate me. [...] 5924 41 6_re:God0_14_cbma@erols.com31_Sun, 11 Jun 2000 16:44:20 -0400581_us-ascii Did you hear about the dyslexic atheist who stayed up all night wondering if there really is a dog????

(In light of recent postings I refrained from writing d-G.)

Hiam's responses about kippot remind me of some things I've found silly over the years. I had an excellent Jewish education in Baltimore but have retained nothing. I do, however, remember that when we told our teacher that kashrut is important because science has found it to be valid, this excellent man told us the secret of it being a pain in the ass, forcing us to remember that we are [...] 5966 46 29_I renounce political violence11_Judy Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Sun, 11 Jun 2000 22:28:58 -0400558_us-ascii Dear Chaverim-

Sam has asked me to publicly renounce political violence, especially the right wing Settlers' implicit threats against Barak.

I find this request utterly incredible because it implies that there is a doubt of where I stand and I am sad to think that this doubt is based on the fact that I said that Dov should be treated with civility, no matter what his politics. I find this particularly ironic because I started my first posting on the Sam/Dov dialogue by stating that I almost always agree with Sam;s politics. [...] 6013 78 33_Re: I renounce political violence0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com29_Mon, 12 Jun 2000 00:02:51 EDT581_US-ASCII I very much appreciate the posting by Judy. I suppose it is a great deal about me that that the silence after Elihu's postintg on political violence might have been seen as an ominous silence. I am motivated perhaps by the unreasonable guilt that there may have been something we could have done individually and collectively to prevent the assination of Rabin, and more by the fact that murder and the threat of murder is becoming an EFFECTIVE POLITICAL tool in our small Jewish community. Perhaps my paranoia has gotten the best of me and perhaps I am beginning to [...] 6092 82 33_RE: I renounce political violence11_Batel Libes25_batel_libes@earthlink.net31_Sun, 11 Jun 2000 21:28:59 -0700425_US-ASCII Hi Judy, Hope all is well. I read your reply on having to announce your renouncement of political violent. I understand where you stand on this approach, but I tend to disagree. Not proclaiming our disgust with political violence, or for that matter any other issue we believe in, generates a silent majority. It is very important that we all renounce or support what ever we believe in, and do it very loudly. [...] 6175 21 27_Dov's Importance to Habonet15_Nechemia Meyers32_rrmeyers@wisemail.weizmann.ac.il31_Mon, 12 Jun 2000 07:56:27 +0300469_US-ASCII Shalom Chevre, I think it would be most unfortunate for Dov to leave Habonet, for he has brought a measure of balance to a Zionist forum that all too often seems to be dominated by post-Zionists. Nechemia Meyers, Rehovot.







------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org ----------------------- 6197 67 7_Habonet18_Rita Katcher Susse20_rkatcher@bigfoot.com31_Mon, 12 Jun 2000 01:13:27 -0400566_us-ascii Dear Chaverim (and especially Dov, Susie and Judy),

In her post on Friday, Judy Gelman says, "It is like watching a feud in my own family. Both sides are right and both sides are wrong and both sides are hurt and all of us wish they would accept their differences without tearing us apart." As one who generally 'lurks', with the hope of learning, I have spent the past few days thinking of this, and of my own inaction to defend Dov, and others, of late. Judy's posting Sunday of her disavowal of political violence, which seems to be prompted [...] 6265 42 31_Re: Dov's Importance to Habonet0_14_BUBELE@aol.com29_Mon, 12 Jun 2000 02:33:04 EDT319_US-ASCII To Sam and Dov, It is my fervent hope that each of you will forgive yourselves first, then each other second and third, each request the other to remain in this Habonet chatroom and promise to address the issues without defendig your own or criticising anyone else's personal style or quirks or comments. [...] 6308 42 23_what's really important12_AviRosenberg18_avi@gezernet.co.il31_Mon, 12 Jun 2000 09:40:42 +0200601_us-ascii Chevre I know all these discussions concerning who's going to shoot who and why, and Assad's death and who's taking his place, are very important, but there are events of a much greater significance going on right now and anything else is just a distraction in my opinion. We have to focus on what's really important at this particular moment in time and I'm talking about the euro2000 soccer championship, which is clearly the most crucial event of this month. And to think that Israel somewhat, almost, just about, nearly, came close to sending its national team to participate before [...] 6351 140 18_[Fwd: kulturkampf]16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Mon, 12 Jun 2000 09:27:37 -0400119_us-ascii I sent the following note to Amnon in response to his last Habonet posting. He suggested that I post it. ELIHU 6492 290 31_Religious preferences in Israel15_Leo Diesendruck18_leodie@isdn.net.il31_Mon, 12 Jun 2000 16:32:42 +0200629_iso-8859-8 The Jewish Telegraphic Agency carried an article about a recent survey of religious preferences among Israeli Jews. It is pasted in below since many people do not like to open attachments because of virus scares.

Do more Israelis identify with Reform than Orthodox? By Julie Wiener NEW YORK, June 6 (JTA) - Is it possible that more Israeli Jews identify with Reform Judaism than Orthodox? According to a new poll commissioned by the Reform movement's ARZA World Union, the answer is yes. But critics say the poll, conducted by the independent Israeli firm, Dahaf, obtained misleading results by asking the [...] 6783 43 18_Re: Anachu Noladnu7_Frankie19_ganenet@pacbell.net31_Mon, 12 Jun 2000 06:41:08 -0700485_us-ascii Dear Norm,

this is what I remember from the song you are researching:



Anachnu noladnu lirtzot v`lichmoa Shvilaynu movil l`mromay har gavoha ------------------------------------------ ---------------------halam v`ka ra`ah--

achat he ha derech achat ha brey rah

allo na`aleh aleh v`hagshem

I HOPE SOME ONE ELSE CAN HELP YOU WITHE RESRT. i LEARNED THIS SONG WAY BEFORE I LEARNED HEBREW SO SOME OF IT MAY NOT MAKE SENSE. GOOD LUCK. [...] 6827 43 18_Re: Anachu Noladnu13_shirley atlas21_lirshnel@iinet.net.au31_Mon, 12 Jun 2000 23:09:17 +0800549_iso-8859-1

Dear Norm

Here are the words :

Anachnu noladnu lirtzot velichmoha Shvileinu movil limromei har gavoha Kolo shel doreinu halam vekara Achat hi haderech, achat habreira

Aleh Vehagshem Aloh na'aleh



Shirley Atlas ----- Original Message ----- From: Norman Kane To: Sent: Monday, 12 June 2000 4:07 AM Subject: Anachu Noladnu



> Does anybody know the complete lyrics to this anthem from the world > movement? > > Thanks > Norm Kane > > > [...] 6871 31 14_Re: car rental11_Don Goelman31_goelman@tiger.csc.villanova.edu37_Mon, 12 Jun 2000 11:27:16 -0400 (EDT)437_us-ascii The J. Post on-line edition (www.jpost.com) has ads in the left-hand column. Both Avis and Eldan are offering specials. I got my best deal that way from Avis a few months back.

Good luck,

Don Goelman

> > Hi folks: I am looking to rent a car in Israel from July 10 to 23rd, stick > shift with air con, seats five. Anyone have any suggestions. Best deal so far > is $460 from Budget. > > --Steve G > > > [...] 6903 102 14_Re: car rental13_Yuval Warshai16_warshais@tir.com31_Mon, 12 Jun 2000 12:43:37 -0400407_iso-8859-1 The exchange below is probably a prime example of what should be called eZionism. Is this a better name than the one usually rejected by Jewish conservatives, namely "post-Zionism?" :<] ___ |Y| ^^^

-----Original Message----- From: Don Goelman To: habonet@shamash.org Date: Monday, June 12, 2000 11:27 AM Subject: Re: car rental [...] 7006 61 7_Re: God0_18_Rachelbern@aol.com29_Mon, 12 Jun 2000 13:17:30 EDT486_US-ASCII << Anyway, I remember my sons' being discouraged from wearing baseball caps to Hebrew school because that shows less respect. >>

And yet, they were fulfilling the letter of the minhag, as interpreted by my favorite sage, Tevye the milkman in his discourse on the importance of tradition: "... for instance, we always keep our heads covered; this shows our constant devotion to God." I do not recall him mentioning the fabric, motif, or size of said head covering!! [...] 7068 18 14_Re: Assad Dead0_24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Tue, 13 Jun 2000 00:16:40 +0300374_US-ASCII I spoke to a UN official who was in Syria at the time of the massacre in Hama, and he told me that the number of murdered was closer to 25,000. pearl

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 7087 17 14_Re: Misposting0_24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Tue, 13 Jun 2000 00:16:40 +0300312_US-ASCII Judy, shalom, I just read your beautiful letter concerning Dov... it says it all. pearl

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 7105 60 10_Asad lives11_Mark Hammel18_mhammel@ulster.net31_Mon, 12 Jun 2000 20:19:06 -0400520_us-ascii Chevre,

In a way I am relieved by Richard's frank admission that his expression of joy at the death of another human being was unmotivated by values, or at least those that we grapple with on this list.

No, it is not my place to educate you, Richard; I think you already know what the point is. And besides, we've seen over the last week the terrible effects on habonet of the idea that any of us has the right to "educate" another, rather than discuss matters both passionately and civilly. [...] 7166 25 39_Assad's body is a-molderin in the grave0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com29_Mon, 12 Jun 2000 20:35:36 EDT562_US-ASCII Mark, I try not to rejoice at the death of anyone but I make an exception for totalitarian tyrants. I guess I'm funny that way. While Assad probably didn't kill as many people as Stalin, I have a hard time believing it was due to his deep humanitarian spirit. While I am usually among the first to criticize Israeli policy, I think to equate Israeli policy, even the misguided policy which led them into Lebanon for so many years, with Assad's many murderous and inhumane policies is unfair. While I tend to be against the death penalty, I lose no [...] 7192 21 14_Re: Asad lives0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Mon, 12 Jun 2000 21:03:08 EDT427_US-ASCII In a message dated 6/12/00 5:22:12 PM Pacific Daylight Time, mhammel@ulster.net writes:

<< wonder if you can tell us the number of civilians in Lebanon who died at the hands of Israel betweem 1982 and today, and whether or not the number is the official UN count. >> And what about the number of innocent Israelis who died from katyushas and terrorists who infiltrated Israel from that border......????sue [...] 7214 32 20_Mi Yiten gufi yayin?0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Mon, 12 Jun 2000 21:23:36 EDT530_US-ASCII Dear Chevre, After a whirlwind week in New York, I finally have some time to sit. The events of the past couple of weeks have made me drunk with exhaustion, euphoria, emotional highs and lows, and internalized smiling. I had to ponder on the plane back to Los Angeles why I would go to the trouble of dishing out hundreds of dollars to spend a few hours with people I love, doing what I love to do and can only do with a few special people who are spread "all over this world"....The fact that I can't do this every [...] 7247 34 14_Re: Asad lives12_Stopak, Noam26_n.stopak@scienceserver.com31_Mon, 12 Jun 2000 22:39:00 -0400485_us-ascii



LiberHawke@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 6/12/00 5:22:12 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > mhammel@ulster.net writes: > > << wonder if you can tell us the number of civilians in Lebanon who died at > the hands of Israel betweem 1982 and today, and whether or not the number > is the official UN count. >> > And what about the number of innocent Israelis who died from katyushas and > terrorists who infiltrated Israel from that border......????sue [...] 7282 14 19_RE: Camp Songs Book0_17_JackNusan@aol.com29_Mon, 12 Jun 2000 22:46:19 EDT256_US-ASCII Thanx, Sharon. ---Jackie Porter

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 7297 16 45_Re: An open letter to Sam Flesher, et al.....0_17_JackNusan@aol.com29_Mon, 12 Jun 2000 23:03:26 EDT425_US-ASCII But, Debbie, Dov admited that he made a mistake of posting it publicly and furthermore, I felt the tone of Dov's not was full of rachmones, not "venom". He actually cares alot about Sam. Jackie Porter

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 7314 28 14_Re: Asad lives0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Tue, 13 Jun 2000 00:04:17 EDT592_US-ASCII In a message dated 6/12/00 7:41:36 PM Pacific Daylight Time, n.stopak@scienceserver.com writes:

<< I don't understand why you are unable to look at the suffering of others at the hands of the Israeli army without offering some sort of "but (s)he hit me first". >> Noam- Even in simple physics- no action occurs without a reaction. Nothing is done is an isolated state without influencing what is around it; and to take actions, political or physical, out of the context in which they occurred and judge them in isolation, is to do them an injustice. I am not playing the [...] 7343 126 54_Dov, political violence, Assad's death and body counts17_Efraim Perlmutter24_habesor@netvision.net.il31_Tue, 13 Jun 2000 12:09:23 +0200544_us-ascii Dov,

There is no reason to withdraw from this forum. So you got a little carried away by the heat of the moment. So you pressed the wrong button and sent a personal message to a public forum. So you let emotions rather than intellect guide what you wrote for a time. Big deal! You're only human. Even Mr. Spock showed emotion once in a while. If you need some time off to get your head reorganized, fine. Take some (about 48 hours ought to do the trick). Then come back. But just one thing, please. Don't include copies of [...] 7470 18 43_Re: Mi Yiten gufi yayin?--A dikduk question0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Tue, 13 Jun 2000 08:38:50 EDT337_US-ASCII Can anyone help me? All night I dreamed that I should have written "gufati" instead of "gufi" ( Please forgive me Dr. Ivri)-- and for this mistake I was sitting in Hebrew College in Dr. Ivri's class and was forced to conjugate every weird noun and verb in the Hebrew language...(I sat there for ten years)...... :) ....sue [...] 7489 34 22_Re: Mosh Reunion 2000!0_14_KBob24@aol.com29_Tue, 13 Jun 2000 09:41:27 EDT371_US-ASCII Tammy,

I have just discovered that I have a scheduling conflict with the Mosh reunion. The daughter of a good friend is getting married that day. Can you believe the nerve of these kids?

Seriously, I am afraid that I need to attend the wedding and pass on the reunion. I would love to be there, both to see folks and represent the Foundation. [...] 7524 19 34_We all do it once and my apologies0_14_KBob24@aol.com29_Tue, 13 Jun 2000 09:45:13 EDT314_US-ASCII Well, it has happened to a lot of you and it just happened to me. I just sent a personal message about the Mosh reunion that was intended to Tammie to all of you. My apologies to all of you for the "spam" and my apologies to Judy Gelman (who I have written to directly) who I mentioned in the email. [...] 7544 21 58_Re: Dov, political violence, Assad's death and body counts0_15_Emabear@aol.com29_Tue, 13 Jun 2000 10:16:30 EDT380_US-ASCII Dear Efraim, What a posting to read with eyes still half closed and still filled with sleep. It is good to know that there are sane list members out there who are, not only clear minded, but can state their reply in such a knowledgeable, non threatening, non judgmental way, and go right to the heart of the discussion. Thank you for the good start to my day. Ellen [...] 7566 29 14_Re: Asad lives12_Stopak, Noam26_n.stopak@scienceserver.com31_Tue, 13 Jun 2000 10:41:59 -0400369_us-ascii LiberHawke@aol.com wrote:

> ...Nothing is done is an isolated state without influencing what is around it; and to take > actions, political or physical, out of the context in which they occurred and > judge them in isolation, is to do them an injustice. ... I was merely pointing out the fact that there is always another side to the story.....sue [...] 7596 231 58_Re: Dov, political violence, Assad's death and body counts13_Yuval Warshai16_warshais@tir.com31_Tue, 13 Jun 2000 14:22:36 -0400475_iso-8859-1 I couldn't disagree, even on a second reading, with any of the positions expressed so well and forcefully by Efraim Perlmutter. kol hakavod.

So I will strive in my comments below to achieve the same goal: to see if I can make a point concerning one of the subjects of this vast and vital array of issues, in a manner that Efraim could also state, if he were so inclined, that he can't disagree with the view expressed concerning that particular point. [...] 7828 20 38_palestinian poll on return of refugees12_Stopak, Noam26_n.stopak@scienceserver.com31_Tue, 13 Jun 2000 14:34:26 -0400434_us-ascii

Found this AP article in the NY Times on line. Sadly there's not much hard data, but I found it food for thought.

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/i/AP-Palestinian-Peace-Poll.html





------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 7849 27 41_Re: Lashon Hara--An apology and a goodbye12_Dov Liberman16_DLiberman@UH.EDU37_Tue, 13 Jun 2000 14:09:24 -0500 (CDT)252_us-ascii Oy, all the people I love and have loved are asking me to stick around. A message from the Troys is a capper. How can I say no. Thanks for the support. You can't believe how much it means to me. I can't say no to you. See you on Habonet. [...] 7877 63 44_Re: Who Removwed Zionism From the Textbooks?0_18_Green88888@aol.com29_Tue, 13 Jun 2000 21:48:48 EDT596_US-ASCII My Modern Orthodox shul in Fair Lawn New Jersey has recently started a journal club. The next meeting will be discussing an article in the April 17 and 24, 2000 edition of the New Republic - "Who Removed Zionism from Israel's Textbooks? Antisocial Texts?" by Yoram Hazony president of the Shalem Center in Jerusalem. I don't have a scanner but I will try to briefly summarize. He begins by stating that the Israel school system as presently configured was created by the State Education law in 1953, a classic piece of Labor Zionist legislation. The new curriculum was developed by [...] 7941 194 37_Haaretz: Israel, a model of stability11_Mark Hammel18_mhammel@ulster.net31_Wed, 14 Jun 2000 07:07:40 -0400376_us-ascii Chevre,

I am forwarding this piece as a model of the self-righteousness puncturing sense of irony that I have, in my own far less polished manner, been trying to convey on habonet, a balm to those weary of the knee jerk Arab bashing that all too often appears among us. Again, I express my pride and amazement that such views are regular fare in Haaretz. [...] 8136 162 22_Reply to Yuval Warshai17_Efraim Perlmutter24_habesor@netvision.net.il31_Wed, 14 Jun 2000 15:25:34 +0200491_iso-8859-1 In response to Yuval Warshai:

Body Counts –

I’m not sure what point you were trying to make about the number of IDF and Israeli civilian casualties. Since the US tried and failed to measure success in the Viet Nam war with weekly body counts I have over time come to the conclusion that no inferences can be made from statistics on the number of killed except that when states or other political organizations resort to violence, human beings are going to die. [...] 8299 26 55_Dov, political viollence, Assad's death and body counts12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Wed, 14 Jun 2000 16:16:15 +0200585_us-ascii Efraim, What a model of economy, organization, good sense, and real haverut your last posting was. I am envious of the way you write. I also loved your story: "An American delegation was being shown the main subway station in Moscow and after the guide went on for 45 minutes about the paintings, sculpture and other artistic elements one of the group asked, "How come we've been here for almost an hour and we haven't seen any trains come through?" And the guide's heated reply was "What about American suppression of Negroes in the South!!!" Efraim, you may have heard [...] 8326 159 30_Re: Reply to Efraim Perlmutter13_Yuval Warshai16_warshais@tir.com31_Wed, 14 Jun 2000 10:48:34 -0400572_iso-8859-1 Efraim,

Thanks for your extensive reply. I find a lot of good food for thought in there.

About body counts, you make the point kind of moot by ascribing to the Likud government of Begin and Sharon expansionist goals not in Lebanon, but in the West Bank. That's even farther and better than anything I was ever able to concoct in my wildest paranoid theories. But I think you are right. You were able to give the beginning of a body to my feelings then, and to Yaakov Guterman's argument in his emotional accusation in Haaretz a few days ago, [...] 8486 39 44_Re: Who Removwed Zionism From the Textbooks?0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com29_Wed, 14 Jun 2000 12:15:28 EDT518_US-ASCII Ok Donna, if you want my opinion, I think you have a real issue that you have raised. I mean how can any thinking person read your posting and not be moved by it. But here is the one thing that I would add. We need to focus on the Zionist past, or the Jewish past so that we can understand its future. A couple of points might be of interest. Some of the lack of interest in Zionist history is being driven by the kids themselves many of whom say things like "Tafsik lharbitz tzionot" That being said, I [...] 8526 45 43_Re: Who Removed Zionism From the Textbooks?7_Greener25_ddwgreen@netvision.net.il31_Thu, 15 Jun 2000 23:11:06 +0300579_us-ascii I'd like to come at this question by asking another question (nu, so what's new?), prefaced by a story.

At the end of my workshop we had a summarizing discussion at which one of the questions was, "What will you tell the chanichim when you get home?"

There were several responses along the lines of, "We'll tell 'em like it is," i.e., we'll take off the rose-colored glasses they have on back home about Zionism, Israel, kibbutz, etc., and let them see Israel warts and all - all the social, political, religious problems; we won't cover up anything. [...] 8572 36 44_Re: Who Removwed Zionism From the Textbooks?0_16_BERNSARA@aol.com29_Wed, 14 Jun 2000 21:59:56 EDT540_US-ASCII Having read several of the letters regardng education in Israel I have come to the conclusion that we are missing the boat entirely.

Having been a zionist most of my life and a member of both Habonim and LZA I have followed the macinations of the Kinest with great interest. I also did live in Israel for period of time and my daughter and her family lived on kibutz Adamit for 12 years. So while I am not an expert on education (I am a Pharmacist ) I do have some knowledge of what education should be all about. Also [...] 8609 19 44_Re: Who Removwed Zionism From the Textbooks?0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com29_Wed, 14 Jun 2000 22:46:11 EDT496_US-ASCII In a message dated 6/14/00 10:03:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time, BERNSARA@aol.com writes:

> I believe it was Kennedy who said ask not what > your government can do for me but what can I do for my govenment. He said country, ask not what your country can do for you...

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 8629 26 44_Re: Who Removwed Zionism From the Textbooks?0_15_DebALev@aol.com29_Wed, 14 Jun 2000 22:55:30 EDT334_US-ASCII



> > I believe it was Kennedy who said ask not what > > your government can do for me but what can I do for my govenment. > He said country, ask not what your country can do for you...



Actually, Kennedy said "Ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country." [...] 8656 25 23_Aleh v'whatever History11_Judy Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Thu, 15 Jun 2000 00:21:50 -0400475_us-ascii Dear Chevreh-

I need help with some history. When we change from "Aleh uv'neh" to "Aleh v'hagshem"? Did it occur during our 'marriage' to Dror? Was 'hagshem' some part of their slogan prior to the marriage? And why did we change "go up and build", which seems to me to be so external in focus, to "go up and be fulfilled", which seems to me to be so internal in focus? I would especially appreciate some younger chevreh telling me what it means to them. [...] 8682 18 13_Poor editting11_Judy Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Thu, 15 Jun 2000 00:35:52 -0400319_us-ascii Dear Chevreh--

That last posting should read "when DID we change..."

Sorry--Judy

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 8701 50 44_Re: Who Removwed Zionism From the Textbooks?13_Michael Livni21_ml-lotan@zahav.net.il31_Thu, 15 Jun 2000 07:49:41 -0700374_US-ASCII Re: What happened to Education in Israel. Whoever is interested in a short article I wrote on this subject is invited to send me their snail mail address and I'll send along a reprint. Michael Livni

---------- >From: BERNSARA@aol.com >To: habonet@shamash.org >Subject: Re: Who Removwed Zionism From the Textbooks? >Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 21:59:56 EDT > [...] 8752 19 12_Kennedy said0_18_Rachelbern@aol.com29_Thu, 15 Jun 2000 00:57:38 EDT292_US-ASCII I once saw that misprinted as "Ask not what your COUNTY can do for you..." which cracked me up because here in Montgomery Country, Maryland (supposedly one of the wealthiest in the country), a great many people seem to think the county should be doing a hell of a lot for them. [...] 8772 46 33_Re: Assad's death and body counts11_Mark Hammel18_mhammel@ulster.net31_Thu, 15 Jun 2000 06:30:43 -0400577_us-ascii Ephraim,

If your responses to me are any guage, I guess I have not succeeded yet in my goal of puncturing self righteousness through the use of irony. Or perhaps I need to be more explicit when I attempt to do that.

So let's start with this. My question about dead civilians in Lebanon was rhetorical and ironic. It was a poke at the grisly numbers game that was developing here with regard to Hama. It was about pots and kettles. Instead, it seems to have been taken literally and a not totally surprising series of questions, including yours, was [...] 8819 15 33_Re: Assad's death and body counts0_15_Emabear@aol.com29_Thu, 15 Jun 2000 11:06:25 EDT307_US-ASCII Would have thought that what we did to Dov would have stopped this kind of attack.

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 8835 31 33_Re: Assad's death and body counts12_Stopak, Noam26_n.stopak@scienceserver.com31_Thu, 15 Jun 2000 11:25:05 -0400358_us-ascii Emabear@aol.com wrote:

> Would have thought that what we did to Dov would have stopped this kind of > attack. >

Not sure what you are saying on a number of levels.

I thought Dov was reacting to his own actions, not those of the list.

In any case, I see an attack on ideas, in response to the same. What's your beef? [...] 8867 25 43_RE: Who Removed Zionism From the Textbooks?12_Fine, Sharon14_FineS@MLHS.ORG31_Thu, 15 Jun 2000 13:27:34 -0400369_iso-8859-1 [...] 8893 75 25_Anecdotes and compliments17_Efraim Perlmutter24_habesor@netvision.net.il31_Thu, 15 Jun 2000 20:32:44 +0200552_us-ascii Amnon,

Thank you very much for your kind comments on my letter. I have the feeling that I should stop contributing to habonet while I am still ahead. I know that if I keep writing I'm bound to write something stupid and write it badly.

Concerning the anecdote about the Moscow subway station, I have heard it several times perhaps even once from you. Unless my memory is playing tricks on me I think that the first time I heard the story, it was told to me by Sid Troy, while we were working together in the loole at Gesher [...] 8969 94 29_Re: Anecdotes and compliments13_Yuval Warshai16_warshais@tir.com31_Thu, 15 Jun 2000 14:32:39 -0400602_iso-8859-1 Efraim,

Thanks a lot for your clarifications. I am with you, in general (no pun intended), I believe. I think you latest clarifications really bring us to the crux of the matter.

I think you will agree with me that the crux of the matter is how to remove the settler population from places such as Maaleh Adumim and Pisgat Zeev (the Jewish population of Neveh Yaakov is already being slowly bought out by the Palestinian Arabs in a very natural process that should be actually emulated everywhere else), and transfer the buildings to the Palestinian State (with all sorts [...] 9064 52 29_Re: Anecdotes and compliments0_17_Shulansid@aol.com29_Thu, 15 Jun 2000 14:58:24 EDT508_US-ASCII Dear Ephraim:

You can't imagine how good It felt when you gave Sid credit for the Moscow subway "joke", and Dov, and all of you for such kind expressions. Hello, Amnon!

The truth is, I have been waiting for the "eloquence factor" to present itself in order to tell all of you the depth of my and our feelings for this 'family' of Labor Zionists? Habonim Campers? Lovers of Zion? kibbutznikim? ex-kibbutznikim? educators-formal and informal? and friends who care. It is very deep. [...] 9117 42 15_Re:Amnon Hadary0_16_BERNSARA@aol.com29_Thu, 15 Jun 2000 18:00:09 EDT421_US-ASCII I find your observations stimulating and interesting. However I believe you miss some of the simple explanations. I for one do not belive that the percentage of Israelies said to be Secular is correct. I feel they are angry at the fundamentalists who call themselves Jews and the rabinate that has forgotten the moral values in our Torah and read only that Joshua should kill all the inhabitants of Jerico. [...] 9160 16 33_Re: Assad's death and body counts0_15_Emabear@aol.com29_Thu, 15 Jun 2000 23:17:25 EDT411_US-ASCII I only disagree with the way ideas are present in such a personal way, when we attack each other, not their ideas. Being a Gemini I'm all in favor of hearing all sides of the discussion.

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 9177 33 29_Re: Anecdotes and compliments7_Greener25_ddwgreen@netvision.net.il31_Sat, 17 Jun 2000 11:53:11 +0300596_us-ascii I hope Ephraim won't agree to remove the "settler" population from Pisgat Ze'ev. If he does, then he won't have anywhere to come to have a cup of coffee and cake with some old Habonim friends (much less Shavuot blintzes or a place to sleep once his daughter moves).

Please don't lump us together with "settlers." People moved to Pisgat Ze'ev, Ramat Eshkol (how about that neighborhood? Also got to go?), Gilo, etc., because of the cheap apartments, not out of any ideological fervor. I have no stake in Pisgat Ze'ev (have been thinking of moving, though not particularly for [...] 9211 81 17_To Mark and Yuval17_Efraim Perlmutter24_habesor@netvision.net.il31_Fri, 16 Jun 2000 15:03:16 +0200357_iso-8859-1 Mark,

I am somewhat puzzled by your response to my letter. You do not call into question a single point that I made nor any of the facts that I stated. In addition you seem to imply that your original letter was simply an exercise in rhetoric and irony. Are you suggesting that my mistake was to have taken your statements seriously? [...] 9293 53 28_Re: perhaps you missed this?12_Stopak, Noam26_n.stopak@scienceserver.com31_Fri, 16 Jun 2000 08:25:47 -0400429_iso-8859-1 Efraim Perlmutter wrote:

> ... > > Mark, you imply that you are an intelligent, well read and > knowledgeable person. I use the word “imply” because though you > flaunt your superiority of knowledge (How many of you know about > the official UN body counts or how many books on the subject have > you read lately) in your reply to me you have been conspicuously > unwilling to share any of your knowledge. [...] 9347 45 21_Re: To Mark and Yuval0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com29_Fri, 16 Jun 2000 10:10:13 EDT487_US-ASCII In a message dated 00-06-16 08:08:23 EDT, you write:

<< Though I do believe that the settlements in Yesha present a whole range of problems I do not think that they are the crux of the matter. In fact I am not so sure that there is a single crux of the matter. And, though I do not like to predict the future, I would guess that when the dust has settled and there is peace between the Palestinians and the Israelis, the bulk of the settlers will still be in place. [...] 9393 22 18_tavor parents days0_17_Aviva5675@aol.com29_Fri, 16 Jun 2000 10:14:23 EDT357_US-ASCII Can any Tavorite please let me know when the parents' days are this summer? I've begun indoctrinating my 3d grader on Tavor for next summer and a trip up to see camp in action might be nice.

Also anyone with a 3d grader in the north/northwest suburb who wishes to double team their kid please feel free to contact me. I'm in Algonquin. [...] 9416 152 29_Re: Anecdotes and compliments13_Yuval Warshai16_warshais@tir.com31_Fri, 16 Jun 2000 10:22:03 -0400587_iso-8859-1 Dear Trudy,

I am sorry I kind of "invaded" your territory. I do not adhere to the "green line" as the most optimal line. I really appreciate your simple and direct, uncharged tone when discussing these very complicated and basic issues, and even issues that affect your home directly.

I do not at all try to determine who is right or wrong, who is good and bad to come to a conclusion regarding these matters, as Efraim implied. My yardstick in trying to come to conclusions regarding these problems is a just and enduring peace, one that can guarantee the [...] 9569 19 22_Re: tavor parents days0_14_KBob24@aol.com29_Fri, 16 Jun 2000 10:34:07 EDT408_US-ASCII Now Aviva, why would you want to send your kids to Tavor?

(For the non-Tavorites and the young Tavorites out there, this is an inside joke which I'll explain later).

Ken

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 9589 27 27_Jewish Genealogy Conference12_Jennifer Kay19_kay@elvis.rowan.edu31_Fri, 16 Jun 2000 14:30:32 -0400563_us-ascii So, any habonetters out there going to the Jewish Genealogy conference in Salt Lake City in July?

FYI: http://www.jewishgen.org/iajgs/slcy2k/

Want to get together for lunch one day or something?

-- Jennie ----- Jennifer S. Kay Computer Science Department Rowan University kay@elvis.rowan.edu http://www.rowan.edu/~kay

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 9617 49 43_Re: Who Removed Zionism From the Textbooks?13_Michael Livni21_ml-lotan@zahav.net.il31_Fri, 16 Jun 2000 21:54:32 -0700646_utf-8 Shalom Sharon A lot of this has to do with the issue of explicit and implicit education. I don't believe that you teach commitment and attachment withou the explicit education - both cognitive and experiential. The experiential is among other things the identifying with a role model --personal example. This issue of explicit and implicit education was raised in detail in the book COMMANDMENTS and CONCERNS by Michael Rosenak.(J.P.S. - 1987) He deals with Jewish religious edducation in a secular society. However the question of projecting clear norms in a non-totalitarian non- Halachic mold is the challenge of humanistic Zionist [...] 9667 16 22_Re: tavor parents days0_17_Aviva5675@aol.com29_Fri, 16 Jun 2000 15:04:15 EDT254_US-ASCII Ken,

One word: traiter

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 9684 16 22_Re: tavor parents days0_17_Aviva5675@aol.com29_Fri, 16 Jun 2000 15:06:16 EDT290_US-ASCII actually, its traitor

Maybe we'll just stay home from camp

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 9701 36 22_Re: tavor parents days0_17_moorejnb@juno.com31_Fri, 16 Jun 2000 20:06:16 -0500532_- I am in Indianapolis and am considering Tavor for my son, who will be going into 4th grade next summer. My inlaws are in South Bend, IN so in case of a massive homesickness attack they can apply cookies. I was a Moshnik.

Here's the deal: we are not at all observant at home and he doesn't go to a Jewish day school. He goes to a very secular (but enlightened) private school. When I was at Mosh I was in much the same situation but I was significantly older and could absorb a much more intense Jewish experience than [...] 9738 13 22_Re: tavor parents days0_15_Hamsa97@aol.com24_Sat Jun 17 01:56:16 2000424_US-ASCII At his age your son is probably open to a wide range of experiences and Tavor offers a non thereatening and nurturing environment especially in the Jewish aspects. It's worth trying out-Miriam Derman

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 9752 51 22_Re: tavor parents days14_David Friedman18_david@friedart.com31_Fri, 16 Jun 2000 23:48:50 -0700567_US-ASCII A wonderful thing about the Tavor experience will be this opening of a new world for your son. Send him this year, so that he will be able to prepare YOU for next year.

David Friedman

> From: moorejnb@juno.com > Reply-To: habonet@shamash.org > Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 20:06:16 -0500 > To: habonet@shamash.org > Subject: Re: tavor parents days > > I am in Indianapolis and am considering Tavor for my son, who will be > going into 4th grade next summer. My inlaws are in South Bend, IN so in > case of a massive homesickness attack they can [...] 9804 110 28_A Frankly Political Proposal17_Martin J. Goodman19_mgoodman@012.net.il31_Sat, 17 Jun 2000 13:14:51 +0200612_windows-1255 17 June 2000

Shalom Chevreh,

I live in a four-story walk-up apartment typical of structures constructed in Israel in the 60's and 70's. Included in the building is a machsan (storage room). Residents of the building have been using this machsan for years to store every kind of garbage that they could not bring themselves to part with, but which they did not wish to store in their apartments. One of the building residents noticed that there were fleas in the machsan and requested that residents of the building help to clean it out. Yesterday afternoon at the appointed time, [...] 9915 35 32_Re: A Frankly Political Proposal0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Sat, 17 Jun 2000 13:18:59 EDT566_US-ASCII Dear Marty- As one who does not in the slightest iota consider herself to be "political"- I was touched by your "plea." First of all, to be called a "Habonim Community " is something I have been thinking about a lot lately. We just had a "national kumsitz" and a little workshop reunion. But then we all went home and the ruach has dissipated to our local independent computers. In the past couple of years, when the issue of privatization of the kibbutz was imminent, I brought the question of Habonim philosophy for "aliyah to the kibbutz" up and it [...] 9951 121 14_letter to Mark0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com29_Sat, 17 Jun 2000 14:02:00 EDT402_US-ASCII I wrote this in a private letter to mark last week and he asked me to post it publicly. Its a little long and rambling for a public posting but it was from the heart to a former chanich so I will honor his request and post it. It may be a little wordy because it was never intended for the public eye. I think that Mark wants me to post it publicly so he can reply publicly so here goes. [...] 10073 54 44_Re: Political Action - Not Political Parties10_Joe Perlov21_j-perlov@inter.net.il31_Sat, 17 Jun 2000 21:06:50 +0200632_windows-1255 Shalom Marty,

I wonder if it would be wise for Habonimniks to make a political party statement? Perhaps THE problem we face is that here in Israel, IT ALL has to do with Parties, Party "machers" driving fancy Party Volvos, making empty Party promises and doing what typical Party Politicians do. Labor Zionism has always had what to offer ideologically. So have other Zionist ideas, from Revisionism to Religious Zionism to the post-Zionist ideologies of today. But Labor Zionist politicians, like the rest of them, have throughout our history been a disappointment. After all, they are, just like the rest [...] 10128 55 36_Re: Dugma Ishit for Parents Day 20000_15_NEVETS2@aol.com29_Sat, 17 Jun 2000 16:35:27 EDT292_US-ASCII Aviva, Ayzeh dugma!

Please excuse me if I make the not-so-subtle suggestion to others on Habonet that the "indoctrinating my 3d grader on Tavor for next summer and a trip up to see camp in action [on Parents Day]" policy is a good one for all 7 machanot, not just Tavor. [...] 10184 20 22_Re: tavor parents days0_17_Mortspock@aol.com29_Sat, 17 Jun 2000 19:55:56 EDT474_US-ASCII mir -

staying on top of thing even from way over ther...i am truly impreseed....I heard half of your message and then asked jasonif you colled...all i got was yeah i talked to her...have a great time and call us when you get back

carol

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 10205 97 61_Re: A Wednesday eve parasha and A Shabbat Shalom for Mark....11_Mark Hammel18_mhammel@ulster.net31_Sat, 17 Jun 2000 21:22:19 -0400499_us-ascii Dear Sue,

So finally, here I am to try to answer the issue you raised a while back. The truth is that no matter how hard I try, I fail to see the connection between the Palestinian Naqba, and the exodus of Mizrahi Jews from their homes, whether by expulsion, persecution, or otherwise, at least not as it applies to Israel and Zionism. If they have claims on their countries of origin, let them make them. If there is a way I can support them in those efforts, I'd be happy to. [...] 10303 64 12_Death Valley0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Sat, 17 Jun 2000 22:23:57 EDT524_US-ASCII Dear Chevre- Abba and Dvorah Caspi were our best friends in Israel. I had grown up with Abba in Baltimore Habonim, so imagine my excitement when I found out he and Dvoralh would be spending a week in Las Vegas for a convention - compliments of Abba's work. The drive from LA isn't so bad, and I was looking forward to making some plans to spend the weekend with them out here in the West. When I saw Abba at the kumsitz, I asked what he wanted to do. With a somewhat straight face, and a little smirk, he said [...] 10368 16 12_(no subject)0_17_Mortspock@aol.com29_Sat, 17 Jun 2000 22:55:23 EDT315_US-ASCII oops...my note to miriam derman was not meant for EVERYONE....sorry

carol pomerantz

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 10385 68 34_Reply to Noam, Smfgrappa and Yuval17_Efraim Perlmutter24_habesor@netvision.net.il31_Sun, 18 Jun 2000 07:22:48 +0200590_us-ascii Noam asked, "Or are you asking Mark to summarize the text?"

I would be interested in knowing what points Mark thinks that Sadik al-Azm made in his article that he thinks are relevant to the discussion at hand. If he went on to summarize the article it would also help to identify any area of potential dispute that might arise simply from a different interpretation of the article than my own. Finally it would enable me to more intelligently present ideas and observations of other scholars such as Moshe Ma'oz on Syrian and Israeli peace making efforts over the past [...] 10454 32 16_Re: Death Valley12_Stopak, Noam26_n.stopak@scienceserver.com31_Sun, 18 Jun 2000 08:13:56 -0400418_us-ascii



LiberHawke@aol.com wrote:

> ... > > We spent an > incredible 7-8 hours in the car and walking around, marveling at the desert, > at our friendship, at habonet and the fact that we have connected at this > time in our lives, at the fact that it seemed like no time had gone by and > here we were, doing what we had also done in Israel traveling around and > marveling at the Earth. [...] 10487 143 21_Re: To Mark and Yuval11_Mark Hammel18_mhammel@ulster.net31_Sun, 18 Jun 2000 10:34:32 -0400560_us-ascii Dear Ephraim,

I'll take your points one by one.

At 03:03 PM 6/16/2000 +0200, you wrote: >Mark, > >I am somewhat puzzled by your response to my letter. You do not >call into question a single point that I made nor any of the >facts that I stated.

Two points: First, in my piece, I clearly "call into question" your gratuitous nastiness about the neighbors and propound a theory as to what motivates it. I have to say that when I did this I knew I crossed a certain line in raising the issue of self righteousness, and that it [...] 10631 38 22_RE: tavor parents days12_Fine, Sharon14_FineS@MLHS.ORG31_Sun, 18 Jun 2000 11:56:29 -0400503_- to a Jewish day school. He goes to a very secular (but enlightened) > private school. When I was at Mosh I was in much the same situation but > I was significantly older and could absorb a much more intense Jewish > experience than I think he can. > > So is Tavor as it exists today appropriate for an extremely secular > Jewish boy? Should i spend the next year preparing him? Should I give > up the idea?> > Dear Julia, [...] 10670 56 38_Re: Reply to Noam, Smfgrappa and Yuval0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com29_Sun, 18 Jun 2000 16:15:18 EDT538_US-ASCII hey efriam ...you can call me Sam. I agree with everything you say. We are not likely to be held accountable for the deeds of Hamas. When you throw Hamas the PA and the settlers, you have a deadly mixture. My simple solution is to make the solution a tad less explosive by pulling out as many of our nut cases as we can. It is precisely because the West Bank is so explosive that we need to get out of there with security arrangements that would make even a Hamas government in the West Bank incapable of threatening Israel [...] 10727 110 53_A Wednesday eve parasha and A Shabbat Shalom for Mark12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Sun, 18 Jun 2000 23:20:22 +0200591_iso-8859-1 Shalom , dear Mark, I was going to leave well enough alone until I read your response to Susie: "And the secular Zionism that Amnon espouses but doesn't really practice, that not only negates the Diaspora, but ignores the richness and complexity of a 3500 year old religious civilization and reduces Judaism to a pretty uninteresting ethnicity, will fade away of its own shallowness; and wouldn't you know it, I have some remarks to make. Seven of them: A] I've been called many things in my life, wordy, obscure; but shallow -- that's the cruelest cut of all. (You probably [...] 10838 149 60_Fwd: [AB] landsberg: Jewish women go the Wall vs. Extremists0_15_DebALev@aol.com29_Mon, 19 Jun 2000 00:54:35 EDT14_US-ASCII Hmmmm 10988 20 44_Re: Political Action - Not Political Parties0_24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Mon, 19 Jun 2000 08:26:42 +0300478_US-ASCII Joe, I think that there are a lot of secular Jews who have seen what the secular Left political party leaders are have left their secularism for more traditional Judaism just to distance themselves from them! I think this train goes on two tracks. pearl

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 11009 49 38_Re: Reply to Noam, Smfgrappa and Yuval0_24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Mon, 19 Jun 2000 08:26:42 +0300647_US-ASCII Ephraim, shalom, I think it is imperative when writing about the Israelli/Arab problem, as with any subject, to be very exact in wording. I think that you inadvertantly distorted the true picture with the following remarks: .."Hamas...mirror image of the more extreme Jewish settlers ...who do not shrink from using violence and mass murder....." There is absolutely no basis for this remark, and certainly no comparison between the murderous organization called Hamas and the Jewish settlers: first, there is no Jewish organization that can be compared on any level with the Hamas. There are no Jews advocating mass murder anywhere [...] 11059 13 22_Re: tavor parents days0_15_Hamsa97@aol.com24_Mon Jun 19 02:19:06 2000376_US-ASCII I am in Jeru. I was at Grofit for a few days. i can't tell you how much I love being here. Saw Joanie and her family. They got a new puppy. See u soon!

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 11073 13 22_Re: tavor parents days0_15_Hamsa97@aol.com24_Mon Jun 19 02:20:09 2000291_US-ASCII sorry about the personal mail on habonet.It was an accident.Miriam

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 11087 17 23_Re: HABONET digest 156812_Judith Tumin18_judith@heschel.org31_Mon, 19 Jun 2000 17:08:26 -0400408_ISO-8859-1 Amnon-in which of his books does that wonderful amichai poem (his birthday) appear? and who's the translator (wonderful textures in english)? judith tumin-judith@heschel.org



------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 11105 34 13_Reply to Mark17_Efraim Perlmutter24_habesor@netvision.net.il31_Tue, 20 Jun 2000 08:07:16 +0200581_us-ascii Dear Mark;

As a nasty, self righteous, ethnically biased (but not bigoted) orientalist who has pretensions of being a Habonet pundit, I find myself being drawn into a discussion about a subject that does not interest me in the least. I suggested that your original point in the discussion about Assad (Israel does the same sort of thing too) was off the topic. Since then you have tried to turn the discussion into one where the subject is Mark and Efraim. Okay, as indicated in my opening sentence I accept all of your points about Efraim. As for your points [...] 11140 50 14_Reply to Pearl17_Efraim Perlmutter24_habesor@netvision.net.il31_Tue, 20 Jun 2000 12:14:59 +0200582_us-ascii Dear Pearl;

I try to be as precise as I can when I write about the Middle East. Sometimes it's not a question of precision but of just being wrong. When I mention the more extreme Jewish settlers I was thinking of groups like Kahana Chai, TNT, the Jewish underground and individuals like Goldstein. I personally know very few of them (Balachason used to live on the next Moshav before he moved to Hebron and lowered the average level of sanity in that Jewish community by several percentage points) and their public records are nothing like the settlers I know [...] 11191 46 25_Not everyone is for peace11_Judy Gelman16_gelman@erols.com31_Tue, 20 Jun 2000 08:32:06 -0400608_us-ascii Dear Pearl-

I appreciate your defense of the right wing and those who identify themselves with it but unfortuantely I don't think you can speak for every person on the right and whether or not they welcome peace.

Last year, on the day before Rosh Hashannah, I accompanied my mother to her local nail salon in Potomac, MD. (For those of you unlucky enough not to be familar with Potomac, this community has a burgeoning Orthodox population, a large Jewish population and lots and lots of Israelis, many associated or formerly associated with the Embassy.) As we arrived, there was [...] 11238 19 24_Any question about Tavor0_16_BERNSARA@aol.com29_Tue, 20 Jun 2000 12:01:52 EDT401_US-ASCII If any one out there has any question about Camp Tavor let me state my oun experience, I went to Kinneret (the predisesor of Tavor. My children went to Tavor. my grand children went to tavor. Three of my grand children will be at Tavor this year. My grandson Segev is Rosh Machene this year. If you are worried about a continuing Judaism get your family to a Habonim camp. Baruch Schiff [...] 11258 78 27_Yom Holedet Sammeyah Yehuda12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Tue, 20 Jun 2000 21:59:31 +0200617_us-ascii Judith, shalom; You asked: >Amnon-in which of his books does that wonderful amichai poem (his birthday) appear? and who's the translator (wonderful textures in english)? judith tumin-judith@heschel.org>

You have done me a good turn by your question and my face is quite brick colored. Inadvertently, I copied the poem, actually a fragment of it from one of my old files and did the additional no-no of changing the poem's name into the bargain. The translators are Benjamin and Barbara Harahav and the name of the book is YEHUDA AMICHAI: A LIFE OF POETRY, 1948 - 1994, Harper Perennial, NY 1995. [...] 11337 14 13_smokin oldies0_16_YonatonS@aol.com24_Tue Jun 20 16:33:44 2000363_US-ASCII A friend from work and I were talking about the smokes we used to get on kibbutz in the '60s and I forgot what it is we smoked while on the 12th workshop at Gesher Haziv. Realizing this isn't of extreme importance, but it was a shock to realize that I had forgotten something I never expected to forget. Anybody remember what we used to smoke? Yoni [...] 11352 15 17_Re: smokin oldies0_13_JLCAA@aol.com29_Tue, 20 Jun 2000 16:43:28 EDT272_US-ASCII Nadiv and Ayalon. If you were lucky - Time. Avi

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 11368 14 17_Re: smokin oldies0_18_Rachelbern@aol.com29_Tue, 20 Jun 2000 17:00:16 EDT244_US-ASCII what about Nelsons?

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 11383 15 17_Re: smokin oldies0_14_Neal45@aol.com29_Tue, 20 Jun 2000 19:19:38 EDT306_US-ASCII At Urim in 1969 for the 19th workshop the smoke of choice was Nadiv Neal Cassorla

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 11399 29 17_Re: smokin oldies10_Ori Siegel17_oris@interlog.com31_Tue, 20 Jun 2000 19:29:50 -0400294_us-ascii At 07:19 PM 6/20/00 EDT, you wrote: >At Urim in 1969 for the 19th workshop the smoke of choice was Nadiv >Neal Cassorla

Ron Gang brought a few packs of Nadiv back to Toronto and I tried then out. Quite vile, as I recall! Have long since kicked the habit.

Ori Siegel [...] 11429 23 17_Re: smokin oldies0_17_Shulansid@aol.com29_Tue, 20 Jun 2000 19:57:48 EDT520_US-ASCII I remember from '48, there were two brands, one in a green pack and one in red, one of them was called Latif, and I can't remember the second.

But you have reminded me: When we went to Gesher Haziv in '60 the most important things I brought were toilet tissue and cigarettes. I was told that the first time I walked into the hadar haochel, with the lit cigarette in my hand, the smokers were swooning with desire. Of course they got handed out pretty quickly!! And Time was the cigarette of choice. [...] 11453 21 17_RE: smokin oldies9_Martin S.15_emskol@wans.net31_Tue, 20 Jun 2000 23:52:29 -0400420_iso-8859-1 > At Urim in 1969 for the 19th workshop the smoke of choice was Nadiv > Neal Cassorla

I'm not sure that "choice" is the first word that would have come to my mind...

Marty Skolnik

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 11475 17 17_Re: smokin oldies0_15_AvivaMT@aol.com29_Wed, 21 Jun 2000 00:32:49 EDT383_US-ASCII On the 14th Workshop at Gesher Haziv, we smoked El Al cigarettes. If you tossed one across the room to someone, most of the tobacco fell out on the way. Aviva

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 11493 35 17_Re: smokin oldies14_Orit Chicherio16_oritil@yahoo.com37_Tue, 20 Jun 2000 21:44:28 -0700 (PDT)500_us-ascii On Yotvata in '73-'74, the choices were Time or Europa.

--- AvivaMT@aol.com wrote: > On the 14th Workshop at Gesher Haziv, we smoked El Al > cigarettes. If you > tossed one across the room to someone, most of the > tobacco fell out on the > way. > Aviva > > ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org > -----------------------+ > Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium > http://shamash.org > ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org > -----------------------= > [...] 11529 27 29_Na'aleh Accepting Nominations0_13_SC523@aol.com29_Wed, 21 Jun 2000 01:40:17 EDT375_US-ASCII This is the time of year when many college students who needed to do internships this summer find out that, for whatever reason, the internship awaited did not come through. At the same time, we have a full wonderful roster of chanichim at Na'aleh - 76 on Opening Day - and a wonderful tzevet that could be better supplemented by 2 additional madrichim (male). [...] 11557 26 17_Re: smokin oldies11_Tsippi Rudy21_tsip@worldnet.att.net31_Wed, 21 Jun 2000 00:00:41 -0700519_us-ascii On the 14th Workshop, we smoked Nadiv in the blur soft pack and El Al in the green hard pack. Or was Nadiv green and El Al blue?

At , you wrote: >A friend from work and I were talking about the smokes we used to get on kibbutz in the '60s and I forgot what it is we smoked while on the 12th workshop at Gesher Haziv. Realizing this isn't of extreme importance, but it was a shock to realize that I had forgotten something I never expected to forget. Anybody remember what we used to smoke? >Yoni > [...] 11584 22 6_smokes16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Wed, 21 Jun 2000 09:10:49 -0400547_us-ascii Re Yoni Shultz's question about smokes on Workshop. The 17th Workshop in Urim was supplied with Nadiv, but we never considered them to be cigarettes because we were sure there was no tobacco in them.

Incidentally, I brought six or eight packs back with me and just discovered that I still have two, packed away with a lot of other Workshop detritus, in my basement. Dare I try them lo these 33 years later? Do you think, pace bordeaux and single malt, that they might have improved with age? (Couldn't get worse, could they?) [...] 11607 17 10_Re: smokes0_14_Eser53@aol.com29_Wed, 21 Jun 2000 09:30:04 EDT383_US-ASCII At Yotvata in 1971-72, it was common knowledge that Nadiv cigarettes were made of camel dung. We smoked them anyway...

Sue Levin Nissan, 21st workshhop

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 11625 16 23_Smokin in the Boys Room0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com29_Wed, 21 Jun 2000 09:57:38 EDT321_US-ASCII I smoked Nelson Bli in 75-76

The Nadev that are 30 years old should be given to a museum.

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 11642 23 27_Re: Smokin in the Boys Room12_Stopak, Noam26_n.stopak@scienceserver.com31_Wed, 21 Jun 2000 10:06:34 -0400474_us-ascii



Richardrdsmith@aol.com wrote:

> I smoked Nelson Bli in 75-76 > > The Nadev that are 30 years old should be given to a museum.

My impression was that the Nadev we saw at Gesher Haziv in 76-77 were already 30 years old...

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 11666 53 16_reply to Ephraim0_24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Wed, 21 Jun 2000 18:23:48 +0300607_US-ASCII Ephraim, I still say it is impossible and morally wrong to compare Jews to Hamas. The Hamas is an organization whose entire raison d'etre is to destroy and murder and devotes all its energies towards these ends. It is also a mass organization with thousands of members and is considered mainstream in the Arab world. The Jewish organizations you mentioned are on the sidelines, and I doubt whether there are more than 100-200 members of Kahana Chai. I wouldn't be surprised if half their number are shabaknikim. I consider Kahana Chai dangerous because they are so irrational and fanatical in [...] 11720 33 30_Re: reply to Ephraim and pearl0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com29_Wed, 21 Jun 2000 13:00:49 EDT442_US-ASCII Pearl

I have already told you privately that I don't think there is a Jewish Hamas. I have also explained in private why that concerns about violence coming from the right wing may nevertheless be serious concern. Your response reminds me of the patient who says "thank god I don't have an advance form of cancer like my neighbor, and then ignors the small malignent tumors that the doctor recommends need to be removed. [...] 11754 18 23_Re: HABONET digest 157012_Judith Tumin18_judith@heschel.org31_Wed, 21 Jun 2000 13:11:16 -0400278_ISO-8859-1 Amnon-- Thank you. I like the complete text too, and I am sitting with it happily in front of me. However, A Life of Poetry is English only. Can you send me the title of a volume that contains the Hebrew, or is there a Hebrew version of the book that I can buy? [...] 11773 171 28_Cherishing Yesterday's Enemy12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Wed, 21 Jun 2000 21:41:12 +0200568_iso-8859-1 Haverot/im I believe that the following lines (many many lines) are a treat; one I'm ready to share. When the fighting ceases, when killing is renounced, will there be peace? In order that Yesterday's Enemy can come to be regarded as tomorrow's neighbor and fellow human we will have to develop a humanistic talent which has alas been hibernating so long. We might be more open to come out of our caves if we can cultivate a "cherishment culture," an affection for our fellows who like us were created in the image of mankind. If we only had love sang [...] 11945 14 10_Re: smokes0_16_YonatonS@aol.com24_Wed Jun 21 14:46:56 2000298_US-ASCII The question was raised at work when one of my colleagues, also in Israel in the '60s, brought in a real pack of Silon cigs. Neither of us was willing to do anything but smell them, but I am sure it, as Elihu's packs, could not possibly be any worse than they were 30 years ago. Yoni [...] 11960 14 10_Re: smokes0_14_Neal45@aol.com29_Wed, 21 Jun 2000 16:36:07 EDT233_US-ASCII



------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 11975 17 6_smokes0_14_Neal45@aol.com29_Wed, 21 Jun 2000 16:38:51 EDT421_US-ASCII Elihu, Would it be possible to take one of those 33 year old Nadiv packs, remove the cigarettes, and scan the package so we could get an idea of what an old pack of Nadiv looks like? Neal Cassorla

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 11993 16 10_Re: smokes0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Wed, 21 Jun 2000 19:36:46 EDT435_US-ASCII I am amazed at the enthusiastic responses to cigarettes, and the lack of responses to what we can do as members of this venue to become a meaningful power and socialistically and politically active.... :)...sue

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 12010 34 10_Re: smokes11_Batel Libes25_batel_libes@earthlink.net31_Wed, 21 Jun 2000 16:39:22 -0700444_US-ASCII I'll put the thought in my pipe and get back to you on it. batel



> [Original Message] > From: > To: > Date: 6/21/00 4:37:10 PM > Subject: Re: smokes > > I am amazed at the enthusiastic responses to cigarettes, and the lack of > responses to what we can do as members of this venue to become a meaningful > power and socialistically and politically active.... :)...sue > > [...] 12045 24 6_smokes0_14_cbma@erols.com31_Wed, 21 Jun 2000 21:50:54 -0400421_us-ascii And again we come full circle. So what if it's fun for us to remember smoking those horrible things. Why do we have to defend reminiscing? This happened last summer when we had such fun remembering gaga, buck buck, Shabbatot, etc. together. Frankly, a lot of stuff on Habonet is way over my head - I am simply not well versed in politics, present day Israel, Hebrew literature, nor the Bible. So excuse me. [...] 12070 31 10_Re: smokes12_Heather Drye26_heatherdrye@mindspring.com31_Tue, 20 Jun 2000 21:55:57 -0400562_us-ascii I agree 110%.

Randi

cbma@erols.com wrote: > > And again we come full circle. So what if it's fun for us to remember > smoking those horrible things. Why do we have to defend reminiscing? > This happened last summer when we had such fun remembering gaga, buck > buck, Shabbatot, etc. together. Frankly, a lot of stuff on Habonet is > way over my head - I am simply not well versed in politics, present day > Israel, Hebrew literature, nor the Bible. So excuse me. > > I remember also smoking cigarettes from Canada, Royals I think. So [...] 12102 14 14_Shelly Smoking0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com29_Wed, 21 Jun 2000 21:55:59 EDT295_US-ASCII I remember smoking some stuff from Mexico at Mosh. It Was called gold.

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 12117 19 16_Re: smokes..PS..0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Wed, 21 Jun 2000 23:20:11 EDT382_US-ASCII Actually this was rather refreshing....I remember breathing in the second hand-smoke from those ciggies and thinking it reminded me of working in the lul and the hodiyah--- At one point, I was even considering bringing up the idea of a new anaf on GH- rolling up the ripud and selling that as cigarettes under the name" Turkies" (As opposeed to "Camels") or "Hod"...s [...] 12137 24 10_Re: smokes7_Greener25_ddwgreen@netvision.net.il31_Fri, 23 Jun 2000 07:29:23 +0300391_us-ascii I remember that one of the brands of cigarettes distributed at Gesher Haziv was oval - on purpose! Probably a better shape to dangle out of your mouth while working...

Workshop caught on very quickly that we were allocated a certain number of packs per person, so all of a sudden every Workshopper "smoked" so that the non-smokers could give their packs to the smokers. [...] 12162 16 10_Re: smokes0_15_Emabear@aol.com29_Thu, 22 Jun 2000 01:10:31 EDT429_US-ASCII Although I am not a smoker, never was, and wasn't on Workshop, fixed that by living in Israel a number of years, I have thoroughly enjoyed this exchange about the cigarettes. A little levity always helps.

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 12179 24 6_Smokes11_Norman Kane19_normk@earthlink.net31_Wed, 21 Jun 2000 23:34:59 -0700378_us-ascii As I recall from Yotvata (70-71) Nadiv Cigarettes were either free or they charged 10 agorot @pack. The charge was suppose to encourage people to keep their packs and finish them rather than leave them lying about. When we had money people bought TIME which were more like real cigarettes. However the smoke of preference was Marlboro which was much sought after. [...] 12204 30 22_Website Testers Needed11_Sam Bergman22_bergman@mindspring.com31_Thu, 22 Jun 2000 06:12:44 -0400507_us-ascii Hi Everyone. I need about 5 or 6 volunteers to test a new website, the Habonim Dror Foundation "People Finder." The site will let you search for your movement chaverim of yesteryear by name, camp, workshop, era, etc, and then to contact them by email. The site also has a unique means of maintaining confidentiality of personal info. The testing will take about 4-5 hours over a 6-8 week period. We hope to open the site in August with a database of over 7000 movement alumni... (more later). [...] 12235 40 7_Smoking17_Martin J. Goodman19_mgoodman@012.net.il31_Thu, 22 Jun 2000 15:05:33 +0200319_windows-1255 22 June 2000

Apparently, unlike almost everybody else on HaBonet, I am still a virgin, i.e., I have never smoked tobacco. At least, I have never smoked it directly from a cigarette, a cigar, or a pipe. I have however inhaled second hand smoke in virtually every kind of public place in Israel. [...] 12276 20 21_The Nadiv Moment.....14_Holtzer Family20_carmdave@urim.org.il31_Thu, 22 Jun 2000 17:45:19 +0300385_iso-8859-1 Do you all remember the time that Marty Salowitz, sitting at O'Hare airport waiting for his return flight to NY after a Mercaz meeting in Chicago, lit up a Nadiv? The unique fragrence made a policeman very interested - Poor Marty was detained, transported to the downtown station, the Nadiv was investigated, and, after a few hours, Marty was released....... downtown. [...] 12297 104 34_Welcome to the Kibutz Sasa Library8_JON BAUM19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il31_Thu, 22 Jun 2000 18:59:19 +0300618_windows-1255 Should anyone out there require a Hebrew-language bibliography on almost any subject, our library here at Kibbutz Sasa has set up a web site with a "virtual librarian" service. Built around the database of our library (which is one of the largest non-university collections in Israel, with over 70,000 titles), we can supply you with a list of titles for research, study, school projects, or general reading. The lists are tailored to your requirements and can be based upon grades, age, etc. Because this service is based on human experts, we can refine your requests, clarify your needs, or answer [...] 12402 48 17_Re: smokin oldies13_Barry Krasner17_bkrasner@juno.com31_Thu, 22 Jun 2000 13:20:27 -0400552_- The 10th Workshop, 1960 at Gesher Haziv, took a field trip to the Dubek cigarette factory in Haifa. They walked us through the entire process, but there was one area of the operation that they kept passing by. Someone asked why, and we were told that it was the area where they made the cigarettes for the kibbutzim - nadiv, ayalon, etc. We kept insisting that we would like to see, and they kept putting us off. Finally, they relented and took us through to where we saw workers mixing a shovelfull of tobacco followed by a shovelfull of zevel [...] 12451 18 16_Smokes in Israel11_Don Goelman31_goelman@tiger.csc.villanova.edu37_Thu, 22 Jun 2000 13:38:47 -0400 (EDT)486_us-ascii Mom and Dad (Z"L) made aliya in 1973, and Mom has (unfortunately) smoked kahol-lavan since then. In the Duty-Free shop at Newark airport in 1998, she wanted to fortify herself for the flight home. She was disappointed that they couldn't sell her Dubek Filter...

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 12470 18 26_Re: Website Testers Needed0_18_Rachelbern@aol.com29_Thu, 22 Jun 2000 14:12:01 EDT408_US-ASCII Hey, will this be like when you help Bill Gates test programs 'n stuff and you get $1000 just for sending the email on to 10 people?

Rachel (hold your fire, that's a JOKE, son)

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 12489 35 11_Re: Smoking0_18_Rachelbern@aol.com29_Thu, 22 Jun 2000 14:22:03 EDT490_US-ASCII In a message dated 6/22/00 8:07:14 AM Eastern Daylight Time, mgoodman@012.net.il writes:

<< Social awareness in Israel about the dangers of smoking and the discourteousness of public smoking is much lower than in America. Although the law prohibits smoking in the workplace, it is frequently unenforced. My requests of smokers in workplaces, restaurants, and movie theaters to refrain from smoking typically elicit remarks in the genre of "Nu, go back to America!". >> [...] 12525 15 10_Re: smokes0_16_YonatonS@aol.com24_Thu Jun 22 14:38:15 2000294_US-ASCII Dear Susie: You are right to wonder about the response to the smokin oldies that my question dug up. But taking a break from heavy conversations is normal when things get heavy. And remembering our smokes from long ago brought us back to some fond (or not so fond) memories. Yoni [...] 12541 14 10_Re: smokes0_16_YonatonS@aol.com24_Thu Jun 22 14:51:53 2000334_US-ASCII Now we know why Gesher Haziv went through the financial difficulties it did once the Workshop got there. Yoni

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 12556 14 17_Re: smokin oldies0_16_YonatonS@aol.com24_Thu Jun 22 15:00:19 2000280_US-ASCII Barry: Loved your tale. I now feel so much better. Yoni

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 12571 62 44_Re: Who Removwed Zionism From the Textbooks?12_Dov Liberman16_DLiberman@UH.EDU37_Thu, 22 Jun 2000 14:13:03 -0500 (CDT)644_us-ascii I'm reading your other articles slowly; teaching summer school leaves me little time for other reading. But i would love a copy of your article on education. I'm am as worried about that as I am about Israel's security.

Thanks, Dov 9207 Petersham Dr. Houston, TX 77031



>Re: What happened to Education in Israel. Whoever is interested in a short >article I wrote on this subject is invited to send me their snail mail >address and I'll send along a reprint. Michael Livni > >---------- >>From: BERNSARA@aol.com >>To: habonet@shamash.org >>Subject: Re: Who Removwed Zionism From the Textbooks? >>Date: Wed, 14 [...] 12634 41 12_Re: research16_Linda Hirschhorn18_vocolot@sirius.com31_Thu, 22 Jun 2000 12:51:30 -0700587_us-ascii I have dozens of letters that I wrote h9ome from the 15th workshop. I will go through them next week and send them to you- linda Hirschhorn

"Elihu D. Davison" wrote:

> The following was sent to me, and I pass it along here in case anyone on > Habonet might be able to help on this project. > ************************************************************** > I am conducting research for a book on American Jewish youth and their > cultures > from 1945 to the late 1960s. In the interest of finding "voices" from > that time I > am interested in seeing letters [...] 12676 16 11_NEA and AFT0_13_JLCAA@aol.com29_Thu, 22 Jun 2000 16:27:18 EDT377_US-ASCII If anyone on Habonet is planning to attend either the NEA in Chicago or the AFT Convention in Philadelphia, please contact me at JLCAA@aol.com. Avi Lyon

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 12693 58 44_Re: Who Removwed Zionism From the Textbooks?0_18_Green88888@aol.com29_Thu, 22 Jun 2000 21:48:06 EDT416_US-ASCII As an educator, I continue to worry about the education of children in Israel. Isn't there a way to teach world history from a Jewish perspective? I would hate to think that Israeli children are learning about the Crusades as if the Crusaders were pious individuals making their pilgrimages to Jerusalem in the name of Jesus Christ, without talking about the murderous acts against Jews along the way. [...] 12752 16 10_Re Smoking0_16_BERNSARA@aol.com29_Thu, 22 Jun 2000 23:24:37 EDT370_US-ASCII Will all of you who remember smoking in Israel or smoking Israelie cigarets please make sure you request a chest X Ray from your Dr or HMO Baruch

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 12769 20 14_Re: Re Smoking0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com29_Fri, 23 Jun 2000 01:48:52 EDT486_US-ASCII In a message dated 6/22/00 11:26:01 PM Eastern Daylight Time, BERNSARA@aol.com writes:

> Will all of you who remember smoking in Israel or smoking Israelie > cigarets please make sure you request a chest X Ray from your Dr or HMO > Baruch PARTY POOPER!!!

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 12790 14 44_Re: Who Removwed Zionism From the Textbooks?0_13_SC523@aol.com29_Fri, 23 Jun 2000 02:12:44 EDT289_US-ASCII Go, Donna! Thank you for bringing up these crucial issues! Aliya

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 12805 84 51_Removing information from textbooks and other stuff8_JON BAUM19_jonbaum@sasa.org.il31_Fri, 23 Jun 2000 14:30:52 +0300588_windows-1255 Donna, I don't think I know you, and while I wouldn't want you to take this personally, it's pretty obvious from your message that you don't really know what is taught and what isn't taught in Israeli schools. Leaving aside the issue of whether children in a non-political school system should actually learn "labor-Zionist values" - boy, I'd enjoy seeing all your reactions in the States if someone called for kids to receive Republican Values in school - The fact is that the kids begin to learn about the Zionist Movement, Herzl, Ben Gurion, et. al. in the 6th grade [...] 12890 24 7_SMOKING15_MENDY MENDELSON24_frenchhorn90@hotmail.com29_Fri, 23 Jun 2000 12:37:35 GMT567_-

Just in order to carry on this inane exchange about cigarretes, none of you know anything if you did not smoke LATIF. Ever hear of them???? MENDY





HAVE A GOOD DAY !!!

________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 12915 22 55_Re: Removing information from textbooks and other stuff0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Fri, 23 Jun 2000 08:43:35 EDT480_US-ASCII In a message dated 6/23/00 4:32:19 AM Pacific Daylight Time, jonbaum@sasa.org.il writes:

<< he factories that have moved to Arab countries, well, when you guys stop moving factories to Mexico, then you can complain. Shabbat Shalom and all that. Jon Baum >> Why can't we complain anyway???? Just becuase it is done "here" doesn't mean we agree with it, or that we don't have opinions! :) Besides- we all love to complain- it is in our DNA! Shabbat Shalom- sue [...] 12938 19 25_Smoking adverts in Isreal14_Barry Grushkin26_103640.2135@compuserve.com31_Fri, 23 Jun 2000 11:46:56 -0400496_us-ascii I just want to respond to Marty Goodman's question about the anti-smoking adds in Israel. They are a rather marketing savvy statement of the now solid research results that smoking causes impotence. One conclusion: If you smoke love and breed early.

Barry Grushkin

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 12958 117 19_Interesting Article12_Stein, Steve21_Steve.Stein@isacs.com31_Fri, 23 Jun 2000 12:45:30 -0400629_iso-8859-1 Jerusalem, June 23, 2000

The following article was written in Hebrew in "Hatzofeh" by Haggi Ben-Artzi, Sara Netanyahu's brother. The English translation is brought to you as a public service by Women in Green. -----------------------------------------------------------

Hatzofeh, June 22, 2000

Waste Water! Haggi Ben-Artzi

Water your gardens with copious amounts of water, in the most demonstrative fashion, and thereby declare: If you, the heads of the country, have an extra billion cubic meters of water, there is no reason in the world why I, the little citizen, should save water [...] 13076 64 23_Re: Interesting Article0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com29_Fri, 23 Jun 2000 13:41:15 EDT408_US-ASCII This article is interesting for the ammount of ignorance that it displays about the subject.

1) The Palestineans and the Jordaniams are currently suffering a much worse water crisis than Israel.

2) One of the things that Israel is negoitiating hard on is rights to share the WB aquifer even after the lands are transfered. There is a committee on the negotions that is doing this [...] 13141 221 23_Re: Interesting Article13_Yuval Warshai16_warshais@tir.com31_Fri, 23 Jun 2000 14:25:43 -0400610_iso-8859-1 I think all of the points made by Sam below are very good and correct. I just wanted to expand a little bit on the background of the sources for this cheap right-wing propaganda piece. It is not only that it was published in Hatzofeh, the official organ of the party of the religious settlers par-excellance. It is written by a well-kown hard-line right-wing settler himself, and its English translation is being broadcast as a "public service" by the Women in Green, the most radical right-wing women organization in Israel supporting Greater Israel and the settlements. Also, I've never seen [...] 13363 50 55_Re: Removing information from textbooks and other stuff0_18_Green88888@aol.com29_Fri, 23 Jun 2000 17:52:56 EDT604_US-ASCII Jon- No, I don't think we know each other. I worked as a guidance counselor,admittedly many years ago, in Netanya and had the opportunity to work in both national religious and non-religious schools. I also worked in some of the richest areas, as well as the poorer shikunim and musdot and had the opportunity to speak with many educators. I would be upset if my children were taught Republican values. However, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect Jewish kids living in a Jewish state to learn Jewish values (perhaps in the same way that American kids learn about American/democratic [...] 13414 25 14_Re: Re Smoking0_14_cbma@erols.com31_Fri, 23 Jun 2000 20:21:55 -0400447_us-ascii I would, but first I have to go to my PCP, be seen, get a referral or Rx for the x-ray. Then I go to the radiology center. Then I wait for them to send the radiology report to my doctor, who in the meantime will have looked at the films and sent them back to the radiology center. Then I'll have to beg for the a copy of the report and if I want the xrays themselves, forget it. ( I work in a medical office, I know whereof I speak) [...] 13440 39 23_Re: HABONET digest 15708_dedelman21_dedelman@ezaccess.net31_Fri, 23 Jun 2000 21:28:44 -0400410_iso-8859-1 I haven't seen a reply so I'll venture to chime in here.

Yehuda Amichai / Shirim 1948 - 1962 Published by Shoken ISBN 965-19-0193-4

Of course they spelled it in Hebrew :)

It starts on page 101.

Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: Judith Tumin To: Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2000 1:11 PM Subject: Re: HABONET digest 1570 [...] 13480 38 14_Re: Re Smoking0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com29_Fri, 23 Jun 2000 22:16:39 EDT576_US-ASCII In a message dated 6/23/00 8:13:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time, cbma@erols.com writes:

<< By the way, do you know something the surgeon general doesn't know about camel dung??? >> This song may help

Camel Dung Words and Music By S Flesher Copyright 2000 Nadiv Music All rights reserved.



Doctor I went looking for self fuflilment But what they gave may just kill me While the hippies were all smoking pot I was busy I was not I took no shroom or LSD Crap like that was not for me Instead I tried to kill my lungs By ingesting camel dung [...] 13519 86 26_Easy to demonizes enemies!10_Jon Zatkin26_jzatkin@public2.bta.net.cn31_Thu, 22 Jun 2000 16:56:10 +0800364_iso-8859-1 Chevre,

Pearl wrote:

>I still say it is impossible and morally wrong to compare Jews to >Hamas. The Hamas is an organization whose entire raison d'etre >is to destroy and murder and devotes all its energies towards these >ends. It is also a mass organization with thousands of members >and is considered mainstream in the Arab world. [...] 13606 22 32_Jewish Values, and BG's mistress20_Sima Goldfarb-Rivlin19_rivlin@canaan.co.il31_Sat, 24 Jun 2000 12:35:54 +0300314_us-ascii Donna shalom, What exactly are "Jewish Values"? Are these universals? It seems to me (every time I turn on the TV or pick up a newspaper) that my Jewish values are not the same as those of some of my fellow citizens. I sure wouldn't want Shas teaching their Jewish values to my kids or in my school! [...] 13629 16 11_Re: SMOKING0_17_Shulansid@aol.com29_Sat, 24 Jun 2000 08:26:43 EDT303_US-ASCII Mendy: you were not paying attention. I said I smoked them in '48

Shula

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 13646 15 10_whose muse11_batya fromm18_fromm@inter.net.il31_Sat, 24 Jun 2000 15:44:46 +0300339_us-ascii Just to get the record straight, Rachel the poet was the late President Shazar's muse (or vice versa). Batya Fromm

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 13662 22 30_Re: Easy to demonizes enemies!0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com29_Sat, 24 Jun 2000 08:59:07 EDT483_US-ASCII Pay no attention to anything Jon Zatkin says. He is man who stars in B rated sex films in China and plays lewd music in Chinese bars. Despite the fact that I agree with most of what he says here he still owes me an e mail. Correct that I agree with every thing he says but he still owes me an e mail. This strange because I almost never agree with him and I ussually owe him an e mail. Watch out for the guy he has a 160 IQ and is trained in 75 different martial arts. [...] 13685 78 14_Israel's Water17_Martin J. Goodman19_mgoodman@012.net.il31_Sat, 24 Jun 2000 16:39:03 +0200481_windows-1255 24 June 2000

In Habonet Digest 1573, Sam makes a number of comments about an editorial published in Ha'Tzofeh (the newspaper of the ultra-Orthodox Agudah party) regarding the impact of return of the West Bank and Golan on Israel's water supply. I'd like to make the following observations.

1) The article quoted by Sam correctly states that the West Bank and the Golan Heights contain a large percentage of Israel's available fresh-water resources. [...] 13764 30 7_Forward16_Elihu D. Davison21_EliD@worldnet.att.net31_Sat, 24 Jun 2000 10:02:08 -0400132_us-ascii JJ Goldberg of 17th Workshop fame has been named the new editor of the English-language Jewish community newspaper Forward. 13795 17 11_Re: Forward0_17_Shulansid@aol.com29_Sat, 24 Jun 2000 10:28:54 EDT298_US-ASCII

Mazal tov to JJ, and now I will subscribe again

Shula Troy

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 13813 20 30_RE: Easy to demonizes enemies!11_Batel Libes25_batel_libes@earthlink.net29_Sat, 24 Jun 2000 9:1:47 -0700528_US-ASCII Hi, One of the basic principles of a terrorist organization, or any other organization trying to achieve its goals via violence is to demonize the opposition. Cops=pigs, freedom fighters=bloodthirsty terrorists. As Jon noted, to be successful at any process we must realize we deal with people, who on their part, believe they have a just claim, and most likely do the same to us. But we can't keep saying "you make the first move." Each of us must make the first move and maybe collectively we will move forward. [...] 13834 13 11_Re: Forward0_15_DebALev@aol.com24_Sat Jun 24 12:38:27 2000284_US-ASCII Didn't another one of "us," David Twerski, used to do that?

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 13848 28 30_Re: reply to Ephraim and pearl0_24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Sat, 24 Jun 2000 20:43:09 +0300620_US-ASCII sam, Dr.Goldstein was an abberation, just like Udi Adiv was an abberation in the Labor Movement. The Soviet Union just gave Israel documents showing that two of our most illustrious Socialist, secular Labour leaders, members of Knesset, leaders of their political parties, as well as being Ministers, were feeding Soviet Russia with intelligence about Israel. One of these men was Moshe Sneh, father of Ephraim Sneh, a minister in this government. An abberation? or was he typical? You can not give me the names of twenty more abberations in the Right. It is meaningless. The Right is against violence and [...] 13877 40 44_Re: Missing cigarettes: I DIDN'T DO IT......0_24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Sat, 24 Jun 2000 20:43:09 +0300 13918 26 23_Re: HABONET digest 157312_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Sat, 24 Jun 2000 22:06:10 +0200536_us-ascii Dave, Thanks for the Amihai book reference. Tzadikim zokhim sh'melakhtam na'aset al yeddei aherim.



Jon, And thanks to you, too. After all these years it's nice to hear your voice publicl. And so much seychel, too. I'm proud to have been your madrich.

b'yedidut,

Amnon Hadary



------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 13945 28 30_Re: Easy to demonizes enemies!0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Sat, 24 Jun 2000 15:15:20 EDT553_US-ASCII Dear Jon! ( it's been a long time!) Jesus would say "Turn the other cheek" and Judah Maccabbee would say "Get 'em while you can!"--- We haven't come too far in these two thousand years - in how to deal with "enemies."....It has come to the state of who has more- arms, money, people to do the fighting....But it is really hard to get people to sit down and TALK with each other. It only gets worse when you take the self-critical look and start comparing..We are NOT like Hamas in that killing is not part of our "religious commandments". [...] 13974 32 18_Re: Israel's Water0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com29_Sat, 24 Jun 2000 15:31:48 EDT390_US-ASCII In a message dated 6/24/00 9:40:53 AM Eastern Daylight Time, mgoodman@012.net.il writes:

<< In Habonet Digest 1573, Sam makes a number of comments about an editorial published in Ha'Tzofeh (the newspaper of the ultra-Orthodox Agudah party) regarding the impact of return of the West Bank and Golan on Israel's water supply. I'd like to make the following observations. [...] 14007 15 11_Re: Forward0_16_YonatonS@aol.com29_Sat, 24 Jun 2000 17:10:33 EDT281_US-ASCII Mazel tov JJ. May you go from strength to strength. Yoni

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 14023 14 14_Re: Re Smoking0_17_Shulansid@aol.com29_Sat, 24 Jun 2000 22:33:15 EDT259_US-ASCII what is the tune for "camel dung"?

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 14038 14 11_Re: Forward0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Sat, 24 Jun 2000 22:34:24 EDT291_US-ASCII To JJ-Mazel tov-- I always read your column in the Journal---- sue

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 14053 60 57_Israel, the Future Palestinian State, and Water Resources17_Martin J. Goodman19_mgoodman@012.net.il31_Sun, 25 Jun 2000 13:59:52 +0200539_windows-1255 25 June 2000

In Habonet Digest 1574, Sam writes

"" ... the Palestinians have much worse of problem than we do [with regard to water]. We cannot expect ... where ... they don't have enough water to flush their toilets and [we] continue to have lush lawns and swiming pools and even a golf course or two....On the other hand ... it is much more likely that we will get flexiblity on the water issue than on land. That means if we show more flexibilty on land we may be able to leverage the water issue.... "" [...] 14114 22 23_RE: Interesting Article12_Stein, Steve21_Steve.Stein@isacs.com31_Sun, 25 Jun 2000 11:50:55 -0400545_- Sorry about the "SPAM." My father (who once convinced my sister Jamie Beaumont and I to go to Galil in the early seventies) is encouraging me these days to be a part of "Women In Green." I was interested in exactly the type of viewpoint Sam provided and appreciate the time it took to write that. I am living in Philly, haven't been in Israel for 23 years, so pardon any ignorance or offense, it comes from lack of data. Maybe my strongest opinion is my belief that Israelis know much more than Americans about what's going on in Israel, [...] 14137 107 23_Re: Interesting Article13_Yuval Warshai16_warshais@tir.com31_Sun, 25 Jun 2000 13:28:32 -0700463_iso-8859-1 I welcome you to Habonet. Maybe you can enlighten me as to what type of ideas would attract a Habonim/Galil graduate to the "Women in Green" organization? I would imagine it has to be something other than peace and understanding between Jews and Arabs? Thanks, ___ |Y| ^^^

----- Original Message ----- From: Stein, Steve To: Sent: Sunday, June 25, 2000 8:50 AM Subject: RE: Interesting Article [...] 14245 45 23_Re: Interesting Article0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com29_Sun, 25 Jun 2000 14:02:16 EDT532_US-ASCII There is no need to be sorry Howie. Your honesty is refreshing. Saying who you are and why you posted the article reallly is pretty cool becaues I know some people were wondering. As for me , I too grew up in Phlily ( although some people consider the "grew up" part to be a mistatement) I lived in the Greater Northeast ( Oxford Circle) haven't lived in Israel for many years myself ( Despite my humble origins in the Greater Northeast, I am not now and was never for Greater Israel.) I was a chanich at galil in the [...] 14291 31 61_Re: Israel, the Future Palestinian State, and Water Resources0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com29_Sun, 25 Jun 2000 14:11:06 EDT578_US-ASCII Hi Marty and Shavuah Tov.

I could have told you what Araafat would demand without reading Y'deiot. I should have told you sooner that I am a spy for habonet. Your concern about untreated sewerage is right on. These are the sorts of things we need to negotiate with them on. You are exactly proving why the narrow mind approach of the women in green ain't gonna work. We have been sitting and controlling these villiages for 30 years and we can't do anything to control their untreated sewerage so how the hell will leaving hundreds of thousands of settlers [...] 14323 75 13_The SHAS Deal17_Martin J. Goodman19_mgoodman@012.net.il31_Sun, 25 Jun 2000 21:22:28 +0200595_windows-1255 25 June 2000

I'm a little surprised that the ruling coalition's deal with the SHAS party has not been a subject of discussion on Habonet. For those of you who have not followed this story, the facts are essentially as follows:

About a month ago, the Knesset voted in a preliminary vote to hold early elections; this is tantamount to a failure of the government to win a vote of confidence. Included in the block that voted for early elections were M.K.'s from coalition partners Yisrael Ba'Aliyah, the National Religious Party, and the ultra-orthodox SHAS party. [...] 14399 30 23_Re: Interesting Article0_13_Mmxmm@aol.com29_Sun, 25 Jun 2000 14:27:02 EDT521_US-ASCII In a message dated 6/25/2000 11:02:57 AM Pacific Daylight Time, Smfgrappa@aol.com writes:

<< My analyst thinks I'm crazy. My last shred of sanity is to resist joinng the Women in Green partly because I don't think I am a woman. As a matter of fact , I am certain I am not a woman. Instead I tried to join Pioneer Women, and they changed their name to na amat so I could qualify: they are still weighing whether I am sane enough to join. I swear I am in touch with reality though just barely. >> etc. [...] 14430 3308 62_Bay Area News: FREE ZA'ATAR LUNCHTIME CONCERT IN SF ON JUNE 2911_Batel Libes25_batel_libes@earthlink.net31_Sun, 25 Jun 2000 11:39:11 -0700556_US-ASCII If you are in the SF area, you might want to catch this groups, they're cool. Also, if you have the opportunity to catch the Dylan/Phil Lesh tour, do so. It was a delectable treat to see them last night, Dylan like he hasn't been in a long time--sweet.



> [Original Message] > From: > To: > Date: 6/20/00 4:31:27 PM > Subject: DO NOT MISS! FREE ZA'ATAR LUNCHTIME CONCERT IN SF ON JUNE 29 > > Spice your lunch with Israeli melodies on June 29 at 12 noon at the Yerba > Buena Center for [...] 17739 30 30_Re: Easy to demonizes enemies!0_24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Mon, 26 Jun 2000 00:05:43 +0300534_US-ASCII Jon --this is too much! Nobody is interested in demonizing the Hamas. They do a good job of it themselves. The Hamas announces almost daily that their aim is not the '48 borders but all of Israel, and that means Tel Aviv too. I know they are human beings, and they hurt when you pinch them. But they want to destroy Israel as the Jewish State and replace it with an Arab, Muslim state. No less. I don't want to destroy them or prevent them from living their lives. Every human being has the right to live and pursue his [...] 17770 80 23_Re: Interesting Article11_Tsippi Rudy21_tsip@worldnet.att.net31_Sun, 25 Jun 2000 11:44:55 -0700619_us-ascii Dear Sam,

Re your point #3, precisely what concessions on Jerusalem would you propose?

Regards,

Tsippi

At 01:41 PM 6/23/00 EDT, you wrote: >This article is interesting for the ammount of ignorance that it displays >about the subject. > >1) The Palestineans and the Jordaniams are currently suffering a much worse >water crisis than Israel. > >2) One of the things that Israel is negoitiating hard on is rights to share >the WB aquifer even after the lands are transfered. There is a committee on >the negotions that is doing this > >3) Although water is very explosive for the [...] 17851 104 30_Re: Easy to demonizes enemies!11_Tsippi Rudy21_tsip@worldnet.att.net31_Sun, 25 Jun 2000 11:59:20 -0700645_us-ascii

Okay, Jonny, recognize their humanity (though some of us humans are more bloodthirsty than others and value life a bit differently).

But who decides what are "legitimate" aspirations? Hamas, Barak, Shas, the U.N., Clinton or us Jews in the galut of our own various political inclinations?

Bechavod,

Tsippi

At 04:56 PM 6/22/00 +0800, you wrote: >Chevre, > >Pearl wrote: > >>I still say it is impossible and morally wrong to compare Jews to >>Hamas. The Hamas is an organization whose entire raison d'etre >>is to destroy and murder and devotes all its energies towards these >>ends. It is also a [...] 17956 21 30_Re: Easy to demonizes enemies!0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Sun, 25 Jun 2000 19:36:49 EDT497_US-ASCII Go Pearl! I am getting a little sick of us (and I am including myself) patronizing galutnikim who think we know best. I think if Sam and Mark and Noam and Jon know what has to be done, they should re-make aliyah ( should we call is "shnaliyah"- aliyah the second time around) and get into the Knesset and change things. I do think we can sympathize and have opinions, but not sound like we are patronizing you and all of those chaverim who are living out the dangers over there. sue [...] 17978 36 28_Easy to demonize galutnikim!12_Stopak, Noam26_n.stopak@scienceserver.com31_Sun, 25 Jun 2000 21:45:13 -0400386_us-ascii Well excuse me Sue. I was going to stay out of this one, but since you mentioned me by name I'll reply.

Sorry if you think it is patronizing to express the opinion that Israelis might want to see the "enemy" as human and consider what will allow the other side to accept a settlement which leaves them with some dignity and a sense that they have not been screwed. [...] 18015 48 78_RE: Easy to -blah blah blah (this is long- so some of you guys might want to d0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Sun, 25 Jun 2000 22:36:01 EDT456_US-ASCII NOAM! First of all- I did include MYSELF!!!! in that list of "patronizing galutnikim"-- I do it too....so we are part of a "chevrah". Second- I want to quote part of an ad placed in the Jerusalem Post by a group called "FLAME" (Facts and Logic about the Middle East). I don't know who these guys are--but they very succinctly state some things I kinda believe (They are out of San Francisco- so maybe they are just part of that radical left) [...] 18064 39 78_Re: Easy to -blah blah blah (this is long- so some of you guys might want t...0_13_Mmxmm@aol.com29_Sun, 25 Jun 2000 22:52:45 EDT602_US-ASCII In a message dated 6/25/2000 7:36:53 PM Pacific Daylight Time, LiberHawke@aol.com writes:

<< I don't know who these guys are--but they very succinctly state some things I kinda believe (They are out of San Francisco- so maybe they are just part of that radical left) >>

Hi Sue,

This definitely sounds like some real left wingers to me. I agree they [ Flame] must belong to some underground radical lefty offshoot of Black September or was that the Weathermen, living here in the Bay Area right under my nose. And who would have been so imaginative as to advertise it [...] 18104 18 17_Re: David Twerski0_13_JLCAA@aol.com29_Sun, 25 Jun 2000 23:01:30 EDT496_US-ASCII David I believe did a stint as Washington chief correspondent of the Forward.

He is currently the Editor of the New Jersey Jewish News, an excellent paper with a circulation about twice the size of the Forward -- and, he is probably lurking somewhere on this list.

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 18123 17 11_Re: Forward0_13_JLCAA@aol.com29_Sun, 25 Jun 2000 23:03:45 EDT306_US-ASCII Congratulations JJ! There is much to do. Give me call when you have a chance. Avi

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 18141 25 78_Re: Easy to -blah blah blah (this is long- so some of you guys might want t...0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com29_Sun, 25 Jun 2000 23:12:49 EDT540_US-ASCII In a message dated 6/25/00 10:36:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LiberHawke@aol.com writes:

> I want to > quote part of an ad placed in the Jerusalem Post by a group called "FLAME" > (Facts and Logic about the Middle East). I don't know who these guys are-- > but > they very succinctly state some things I kinda believe (They are out of San > Francisco- so maybe they are just part of that radical left) FLAME is not a left wing group but rather an Israeli apologist group who never saw an Israeli action it didn't like. [...] 18167 34 23_Re: Interesting Article0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com29_Sun, 25 Jun 2000 23:13:34 EDT543_US-ASCII You have 100,000 Palestineans in Jerusalem who don't want to be governed by us. Do you get my drift. Try to keep those neighborhoods and you won't be able to go there anyway. A lot of them were out of bounds during the intifad and even now a lot of people in Jerusalem don't want to cross the "Tefer" The Palestineans are not going to sign without some concession on Jerusalem. It just ain't going to happen So I say give them their Neighorhoods in the East and keep ours including the Jewish quarter and the Kotel. But there is [...] 18202 32 32_Re: Easy to demonize galutnikim!0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com29_Sun, 25 Jun 2000 23:33:49 EDT413_US-ASCII Dear Pearl

I understand that you are scared. To tell the truth I am scared sometimes too. You are a lot closer to the epicenter than I am so in some ways I defer to you

of course, I was very close to the epicenter when I had to fight Milchemet yom kippur and I was very scared. I know what it is like to be afraid. If we arrive and different destinations we start from the same point. [...] 18235 21 78_Re: Easy to -blah blah blah (this is long- so some of you guys might want t...0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Mon, 26 Jun 2000 01:02:26 EDT452_US-ASCII In a message dated 6/25/00 7:53:53 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Mmxmm@aol.com writes:

<< s. part of me wonders if you're pulling a koontz by posting this...haha you got me! >> And you got ME!!! (darn- I was found out!)....s

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 18257 37 49_Re: Easy to -blah blah blah - you call that long?12_Stopak, Noam26_n.stopak@scienceserver.com31_Mon, 26 Jun 2000 09:26:57 -0400403_us-ascii SUE! Thanks for trivializing my message by transforming the subject to "blah blah blah". I hope those who demonized me when I referred to someone's posting as drivel will let you know what they think of this.

LiberHawke@aol.com wrote:

> NOAM! > First of all- I did include MYSELF!!!! in that list of "patronizing > galutnikim"-- I do it too....so we are part of a "chevrah". [...] 18295 113 21_Re: Demonizng enemies10_Jon Zatkin26_jzatkin@public2.bta.net.cn31_Mon, 26 Jun 2000 21:40:49 +0800526_iso-8859-1 Chevre,

First my appreciation to you all for carrying on this particular discussion with decorum and a bit more thoughtfullness and less emotional reaction than has been common of late.

Pearl replied to my post: >The Hamas announces almost daily that their aim is not the '48 >borders but all of Israel, and that means Tel Aviv too. >I know they are human beings, and they hurt when you pinch >them. But they want to destroy Israel as the Jewish State and >replace it with an Arab, Muslim state. [...] 18409 48 23_RE: HABONET digest 157512_Stein, Steve21_Steve.Stein@isacs.com31_Mon, 26 Jun 2000 11:27:24 -0400489_- Yuval, As I mentioned in my last post, my father asked me to subscribe to Women in Green, it was not a particular type of an idea. Before that I didn't know what it was. I strongly expected when I posted that article that Habonetnikim would provide a different perspective, and thanks to Sam for that. Parenthetically, my other attraction to Women in Green is the camouflage pants the chanichot wore in the seventies when I was at Galil, and that is quite the different experience. [...] 18458 205 7_Various15_Leo Diesendruck18_leodie@isdn.net.il31_Mon, 26 Jun 2000 18:47:27 +0200316_iso-8859-8 1) I want to add my congratulations to J.J. on his appointment to the editorship of the FORWARD. I download it every week and am often annoyed by its right-wing stance. Hopefully it will now improve.

2) HAARETZ had a good article on Israeli education by Amnon Rubinstein in the June 19 issue. [...] 18664 32 26_Arab citizens of Jerusalem0_24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Mon, 26 Jun 2000 21:44:49 +0300558_US-ASCII Sam shalom, The 100,000 Arab residents of Jerusalem so do not want to be under our control that they fight like tigers for their rights to Israeli citizenship. When there was talk of handing over their areas to the PA thousands stood in line to make sure they got and retained Israeli citizenship. Why: because they get bituach leumi every month like tatelehs from the Government of Israel, something they know they will not get from the PA. They also get ma'anak leidah for every baby born -- I just saw a lady in the bank getting hers with a [...] 18697 19 78_Re: Easy to -blah blah blah (this is long- so some of you guys might want t...0_24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Mon, 26 Jun 2000 21:44:49 +0300445_US-ASCII what is wrong with balance Marc? I would think that an intellectually honest person would want to make his decisions based on knowledge of both sides of the question and on as much input as possible from all sides. pearl

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 18717 26 30_Re: Arab citizens of Jerusalem0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com29_Mon, 26 Jun 2000 15:53:17 EDT353_US-ASCII Pearl

Well, from your mouth to God's ears. If the citizens of East Jerusalem want to make a fuss about being Israeli's so be it. I won't stop them. They have had 30 years to get that citzenship and most have resisted. Their inclusion will mean another 2 Arab madatim. It will be in part their call. They can vote in the referendum. [...] 18744 22 17_Re: The SHAS Deal0_16_BERNSARA@aol.com29_Mon, 26 Jun 2000 17:04:56 EDT495_US-ASCII Right on!

Barach is losing many of us who thought he had the strength to make peace and have the moral strenght to stop the stealing that the orthadox were and are doing.

I never thought I would become discouraged but I am afraid I am getting there. Baruch

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 18767 21 23_Re: HABONET digest 15720_16_HGavorin@aol.com29_Mon, 26 Jun 2000 18:16:14 EDT535_US-ASCII Holtzer and all chevre- I don't remember Marty Salowicz being detained at O'Hare, but I do remembe r that you, Holtz, bought as many cartons of Parliments on the plane on the way over to Israel (17th Workshop). You put them away in your closet and every erev shabbat you pulled out a pack or two and shared them with each and every one of your chevre who wanted one - who else remembers? Elihu? It was such a friendly thing to do, it remains over 3 decades in my memory, although I haven't had a cigarette in many years. [...] 18789 33 15_Ah, Shakespeare0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Mon, 26 Jun 2000 19:10:31 EDT611_US-ASCII Dear Noam, Jon, etc....

"A rose by any other name, is still arose...." Consequently- A Jew is a Jew, and Israeli and Israeli, and a Palestinian is an Arab..is a Palestinian...etc. Whatever people are labeled, they are what they are.

I think, personally, it is irrelevant whether or not I think the Palestinians are a "nation" ( and I don't and I don't think you will ever convince me- That does NOT mean, however, that I don't believe that every human being on this planet doesn't have the right to "hagshama atzmit AND l'umit)).....Obviously, the world community believes that they [...] 18823 40 14_scavenger hunt11_Phil Safier17_psafier@elixa.com31_Mon, 26 Jun 2000 21:46:25 -0600518_us-ascii Amid all the outpouring of angst, compassion, wisdom, wit, bile, and sheer lunacy, I want to add my apology for not having enough time to interject my snide gadfly self.

Y'all seem to have enough to talk about amongst yourselves.

But, if you have a chance, please explore the question of who prospers from The Situation? Who in each country involved (USA, European, Asian, as well as Israel and its neighbors) wants this shit to continue ad inf, ad naus? Who suffers when peace breaks out? [...] 18864 15 18_Re: scavenger hunt0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com29_Mon, 26 Jun 2000 23:36:34 EDT310_US-ASCII Phil???Where have you been>???? How about a slot on "Win Ben Stein's Money"????.....s

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 18880 81 50_Haaretz Daily Newspaper - English Internet Edition11_Mark Hammel18_mhammel@ulster.net31_Tue, 27 Jun 2000 06:43:03 -040073_us-ascii

http://www3.haaretz.co.il/eng/scripts/print.asp?id=83044 18962 36 19_Re: Ah, Shakespeare12_Stopak, Noam26_n.stopak@scienceserver.com31_Tue, 27 Jun 2000 08:33:25 -0400488_us-ascii



LiberHawke@aol.com wrote:

> ...Obviously, the world community believes that they are, so there > is pressure to create a "Palestinian State" somewhere in the Middle East next > to and inside the borders of what was originally delineated as Israel- the > Jewish State- in 1948. OK.

Actually, the area was also to contain an arab state. The state the world community is pushing for will consist of significantly less land than the 1948 proposal. [...] 18999 79 21_Re: Demonizng enemies0_24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Tue, 27 Jun 2000 18:03:37 +0300575_US-ASCII You do not have to point out to me and use me as an example of one who denies Palestinian aspirations. Sue's statement is not "a big lie," but is the truth. I have seen enough Palestinian passports to know that indeed Jews were the Palestinians until 1948. I have read enough United Nations, League of Nations, and British Mandate documents in my research for "Regional Cooperation in the Middle East (before 1948)" to know who the indiginous inhabitants of this country are and were until then and where and when they came here. There were indeed many tens of [...] 19079 15 18_Re: scavenger hunt0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com24_Tue Jun 27 11:45:40 2000527_US-ASCII Issues of class an social justice surely should be on the table on this board and in Habonim. I care deeply about these issues and they should not be let to slip off the screen. ( no pun intended ) The great thinkers of past Labor Zionisim all addressed these issues and I think its time to bring them up again even in if humor is needed. But I don't find you particularly funny Phil, at least up till now. I find you alienated and cynical. Maybe that's just me. Make a coherent and even a funny analyisis of the [...] 19095 22 21_Re: Demonizng enemies0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com29_Tue, 27 Jun 2000 12:18:54 EDT452_US-ASCII In a message dated 6/27/00 11:02:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time, skolnik@netvision.net.il writes:

> The traditional Arab family is warm and close-knit, > puts extremely high value on family honour, jealously guards the > modesty of the females, Yes, and this is why it is common in many Arab countries that a rape victims own family sometimes kills her because it is considered an insult to the family that she let herself get raped. [...] 19118 131 27_A Liberal's second thoughts12_Dov Liberman16_DLiberman@UH.EDU37_Tue, 27 Jun 2000 12:47:24 -0500 (CDT)572_iso-8859-1 FYI (This guy is a liberal, ownere and publisher of a liberal magazine.)

The New Republic 26 June 2000

We are ending our three-and-a-half-month stay in Israel, and it is only now that I have the confidence to admit that I think the Oslo agreements were a mistake. Looking out from my rooftop apartment, I see the Mediterranean immediately to the west and the hills of Samaria not at all so remotely to the east. Tel Aviv, at its farthest, is 15 visible miles from the old frontier with the West Bank, and it is somewhere near this old border [...] 19250 40 21_RE: Demonizng enemies12_Fine, Sharon14_FineS@MLHS.ORG31_Tue, 27 Jun 2000 13:49:58 -0400384_iso-8859-1



-----Original Message----- From: skolnik@netvision.net. Jews are allowed to pray in mosques (!), but they are definitely NOT allowed to pray in a church.

Pearl - For once I agree with (almost) everything you said! However, I've never heard of a church that forbids Jews to come and pray, and Judaism and Christianity are also extremely similar. [...] 19291 13 32_RE: Demonizng enemies- to Sharon0_18_LiberHawke@aol.com24_Tue Jun 27 14:12:41 2000430_US-ASCII I just think it seems a little patronizing to me to sit here and tell the Israelis how to make peace ( when no one really knows at this point)... I did not mean to infer that we shouldn't have opnions.....

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 19305 21 31_Re: A Liberal's second thoughts0_15_DebALev@aol.com24_Tue Jun 27 14:25:26 2000522_US-ASCII Dov said:

"FYI (This guy is a liberal, ownere and publisher of a liberal magazine.)"

So who IS he? My internet practice is to ALWAYS include proper attribution of any article I did not write.

And I'm not so sure about the "New Republic" being so liberal anymore.

Debbie

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 19327 251 21_Re: Demonizng enemies13_Yuval Warshai16_warshais@tir.com31_Tue, 27 Jun 2000 16:21:58 -0400624_iso-8859-1 Pearl wrote, among other things:

>There were indeed many tens of thousands of Arabs who migrated >here from neighboring countries in the wake of the Jewish Aliya in >order to work here and benefit from the development of this country >(commerce, health care, work opportunities). Tens of thousands >of migrant workers were caught here at the outbreak of the 48 war. >Although they may have been Lebanese, Syrian or Egyptian it was >very well worth their while to become "Palestinian" refugees and >benefit from the largesse of the UNWRA. >Before the influx of hundreds of thousands of Arabs into this [...] 19579 30 31_Re: A Liberal's second thoughts0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com29_Tue, 27 Jun 2000 16:23:44 EDT543_US-ASCII The guy is entitled to his opinions. They do not reflect my view and they are flawed stuff that has been said a lot. But his point that Isreal had to make concessions while the Palestineans just had to show up shows that he is badly misinformed about the Peace Process and even being the editor of the publisher of the New Republic doesn't excuse him that. Dov is entitled to advance viewpoint here, but it is so misinformed and out of touch that it does nothing but diminish my view of the New Republic from printing it and Dov [...] 19610 33 42_Re: Jewish Values and the Barak Phenomenon0_18_Green88888@aol.com29_Tue, 27 Jun 2000 16:35:10 EDT339_US-ASCII Dear Sima and others, When I spoke about teaching Jewish values, I certainly would not like Shas to be the ones teaching them. However, I still think that there must be some basic Jewish( and I'm going to say Zionistic) values that at least most Jews who send their children to the "secular" educational system can agree on. [...] 19644 29 31_Re: A Liberal's second thoughts11_Mark Hammel18_mhammel@ulster.net31_Tue, 27 Jun 2000 19:34:16 -0400352_us-ascii New Republic is Neo-con

At , you wrote: >Dov said: > >"FYI (This guy is a liberal, ownere and publisher of a liberal magazine.)" > >So who IS he? My internet practice is to ALWAYS include proper attribution of any article I did not write. > >And I'm not so sure about the "New Republic" being so liberal anymore. > >Debbie > > > > [...] 19674 25 16_The New Republic0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com29_Tue, 27 Jun 2000 20:24:49 EDT614_US-ASCII The owner of New Republic is Martin Peretz and I believe the author of the uncredited piece Dov sent in to the net, it would be nice if Dov would confirm this.

The New Republic is not a "neo-con" publication. Neoconservatives did not support Clinton in both '92 and '96 nor will they support Gore this year. New Republic did. The New Republic includes articles by both conservatives and liberals. It is generally liberal on domestic policy and interventionist in foreign policy. The only exception to an overall open-mindedness on most political issues is its knee-jerk support of anything to [...] 19700 171 39_Haaretz: You don't abandon your brother11_Mark Hammel18_mhammel@ulster.net31_Tue, 27 Jun 2000 20:52:34 -040073_us-ascii

http://www3.haaretz.co.il/eng/scripts/print.asp?id=83216 19872 27 42_Re: Jewish Values and the Barak Phenomenon0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com29_Tue, 27 Jun 2000 22:53:28 EDT358_US-ASCII It is well to remember that Ben Gurion Started that trend of going to study Eastern thought and that Ashram's in this country are filled with American Jews. I have decided to attempt to bridge the gap by finding cultural expresions that cross both Jewish and Eastern Thought.

I am currently working on a song called Shabas in the Ashram [...] 19900 48 42_Re: Jewish Values and the Barak Phenomenon11_Batel Libes25_batel_libes@earthlink.net31_Tue, 27 Jun 2000 20:47:42 -0700579_US-ASCII oy-om.

Batel

> [Original Message] > From: > To: > Date: 6/27/00 7:54:07 PM > Subject: Re: Jewish Values and the Barak Phenomenon > > It is well to remember that Ben Gurion Started that trend of going to study > Eastern thought and that Ashram's in this country are filled with American > Jews. I have decided to attempt to bridge the gap by finding cultural > expresions that cross both Jewish and Eastern Thought. > > I am currently working on a song called Shabas in the Ashram > > > They only lyric I have [...] 19949 49 7_Various15_Leo Diesendruck18_leodie@isdn.net.il31_Wed, 28 Jun 2000 07:45:24 +0200283_iso-8859-8 Re number of students in the SHAS school system: the Central Bureau of Statistics informs me that there were 16,626 students in the Primary SHAS system in 1998/9. By my calculation that makes 22% of the students in the Independent System and 3.16% of all Primary students. 19999 22 29_article from the New Republic0_24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Wed, 28 Jun 2000 09:54:51 +0300399_US-ASCII Thank you Dov for forwarding the article to Habonet. It only buttresses what we in Israel already know and it is important for us to know that we are not alone. Yitzhak Rabin was the first to realize that the Oslo agreement was a catastrophe and that he was bamboozled by Peres and Beilin. Thank God the Israeli people is more intelligent than its government. We deserve better. pearl [...] 20022 37 21_Re: Demonizng enemies0_24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Wed, 28 Jun 2000 09:54:51 +0300564_US-ASCII Arabs do not sometimes murder women who have sullied or are suspected of sullying family honor: they always do, and it does not matter if it is a mother, daughter, sister or wife. An Arab woman was just murdered in Lod this week because they suspected her of dishonoring the family. No proof. I have written about that before. Women's place in Arab society is still inferior. But, still the mother's role in the family is central and very important. In Israel there is already a movement of Arab women to bring change in the status of the Arab woman [...] 20060 39 21_RE: Demonizng enemies0_24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Wed, 28 Jun 2000 09:54:51 +0300570_US-ASCII Sharon, I did not say that churches do not allow Jews to pray in them, but rather that Jews are not allowed to pray in churches because Christianity is considered avoda zara - polytheism, not pure monotheism. Islam is considered a purely monotheistic religion and therefore we are allowed to pray inside a mosque, and this is done daily in Israel: machpelah in Hebron and Nebi Samwil just after Ramot in Jerusalem. The muslims are not too happy about Jews being in the mosques, but then that is another story. just by the by: Muslims in Egypt are known to [...] 20100 22 21_RE: Demonizng enemies0_24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Wed, 28 Jun 2000 09:54:51 +0300367_US-ASCII Sharon, just to comment on what you said: Judaism and Christianity are not "extremely similar." Christianity sprang from Judaism but has more paganistic elements than Jewish. Islam is far more close to Judaism. We hold more in common with Islam than with Christianity, religiously. However, culturally, we are more attune with the Christian West. pearl [...] 20123 22 20_Re: The New Republic0_24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Wed, 28 Jun 2000 15:44:27 +0300446_US-ASCII Why doesn't anybody react to the article in substance, rather than write polemics against the magazine? Is it not possible that there is still substance and fact in the article? Is everything automatically treif if your shochet wasn't the shochet? Maybe both are kosher? All these so-called liberals who are only liberal in their own circle and can not see anyone else's point of view if they come from a different direction. pearl [...] 20146 29 42_Re: Jewish Values and the Barak Phenomenon0_24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Wed, 28 Jun 2000 15:44:27 +0300537_US-ASCII to answer your question, maybe someone has to open up a yeshiva for immediately after army secular boys and girls, call it an ashram or whatever, and have it up in the hills away from the tralala of cars and discos, but in Israel. The right person could really make a revolution there. My daughter was in India with her husband for six months and told me that at least 40% of the people in one ashram she slept in were Israelis and American Jews. The problem as she saw it was that the American Jews took it more seriously [...] 20176 48 63_Re: reply to "article from the New Republic" and other messages12_Stopak, Noam26_n.stopak@scienceserver.com31_Wed, 28 Jun 2000 09:10:03 -0400456_us-ascii skolnik@netvision.net.il wrote:

> Thank you Dov for forwarding the article to Habonet. It only > buttresses what we in Israel already know and it is important > for us to know that we are not alone. > Yitzhak Rabin was the first to realize that the Oslo agreement > was a catastrophe and that he was bamboozled by Peres and > Beilin. > Thank God the Israeli people is more intelligent than its > government. We deserve better. > pearl [...] 20225 58 42_Re: Jewish Values and the Barak Phenomenon0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com29_Wed, 28 Jun 2000 10:15:02 EDT311_US-ASCII In a message dated 00-06-28 08:42:33 EDT, you write:

<< to answer your question, maybe someone has to open up a yeshiva for immediately after army secular boys and girls, call it an ashram or whatever, and have it up in the hills away from the tralala of cars and discos, but in Israel. >> [...] 20284 64 63_RE: reply to "article from the New Republic" and other messages12_Fine, Sharon14_FineS@MLHS.ORG31_Wed, 28 Jun 2000 10:22:12 -0400531_-



Thank you, Noam, for saying all the things I was going to say to Pearl if you hadn't said them first. I would have said them a lot nicer, though (hint). -Sharon

> skolnik@netvision.net.il wrote: > > > Thank you Dov for forwarding the article to Habonet. It only > > buttresses what we in Israel already know and it is important > > for us to know that we are not alone. > > Yitzhak Rabin was the first to realize that the Oslo agreement > > was a catastrophe and that he was bamboozled by Peres and > [...] 20349 116 36_Fwd: [AB] Woman cantor prays at wall0_15_DebALev@aol.com24_Wed Jun 28 12:05:57 200017_US-ASCII

20466 33 63_Re: reply to "article from the New Republic" and other messages12_Stopak, Noam26_n.stopak@scienceserver.com31_Wed, 28 Jun 2000 15:03:12 -0400348_us-ascii



"Fine, Sharon" wrote:

> Thank you, Noam, for saying all the things I was going to say to Pearl if > you hadn't said them first. I would have said them a lot nicer, though > (hint). > -Sharon >

Thanks Sharon, I appreciate knowing that (at least on occasion) I'm not just a lone soul, howling at the moon. [...] 20500 21 13_Pearl's facts0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com29_Wed, 28 Jun 2000 15:39:29 EDT517_US-ASCII I have never heard the fact that Rabin was against the Oslo agreement. I didn't know the fact that he felt he had been duped by Peres et. al. Strange how this whole, so called, fact is so reminiscent of those who made up the fact that John F. Kennedy was going to get the U.S. out of Vietnam if only the FBI, CIA, Communists, Fascists, Mafia, Cuba, LBJ, Republicans and so on, had not killed him. I guess its just too bad that that left winger murdered Rabin or we would all know these facts about him. [...] 20522 30 46_The New Republic, Demonization & Bamboozlement11_Norman Kane19_normk@earthlink.net31_Wed, 28 Jun 2000 17:28:27 -0700593_us-ascii Rather than try to address all the myriad streams of late I would just like to pose one question.

What alternative does anyone propose to the Oslo process? Does Israel return to the days of the intifada? Does Israel intend to continue in perpetuity as an occupation army?

If Israel is to remain a Jewish state then it must divest itself of all these unwilling residents on the West Bank & Gaza. Israel can't ship them to Madagascar, nor can they kill them all. Strategic depth, water rights, etc. doesn't answer the question. What solution do you propose that will [...] 20553 53 50_Re: The New Republic, Demonization & Bamboozlement0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com29_Wed, 28 Jun 2000 21:31:19 EDT423_US-ASCII In a message dated 6/28/00 8:25:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time, normk@earthlink.net writes:

<< Rather than try to address all the myriad streams of late I would just like to pose one question.

What alternative does anyone propose to the Oslo process? >>

Noam..you have asked a good question. Here is the only viable alternative. I refer you to the introduction to the song Po KaVor Hakelev. [...] 20607 25 5_facts11_batya fromm18_fromm@inter.net.il31_Thu, 29 Jun 2000 08:52:45 +0300610_us-ascii Shalom rav, As an Israeli who made Aliyah in the middle fifties I was pleased to read the postings by Norma Kane and Richardsmith. I wholeheartedly agree with you.There has been too much disinformation on habonet. Let's keep the facts facts and not twisted half truths. What Barak is doing in the diplomatic arena is exactly what he said he would do, before the elections. He was voted into office by a sizeable manjority.(Just to reminder rightwing diehards also by the Jewish voters). Unfortunately our electoral system gives the special interest groups the power to hamstring any moves by any [...] 20633 32 20_Is There a Solution?15_Nechemia Meyers32_rrmeyers@wisemail.weizmann.ac.il31_Thu, 29 Jun 2000 11:02:01 +0300562_US-ASCII I support Barak's attempt to find a solution to our endless clash with the Arabs in general and the Palestinians in particular. But I am not sure he will find one, nor, for that matter, is he. In that context it is worth recalling what I once heard Kissinger say in Jerusalem, and what I presume he said elsewhere. As nearly as I can recall, he declared: "The problem with Americans is that they believe there is a solution to every problem, if only the people involved would sit down and negotiate. But," he added, "that isn't true. Some problems [...] 20666 90 14_Reply to Pearl17_Efraim Perlmutter24_habesor@netvision.net.il31_Thu, 29 Jun 2000 11:15:17 +0200292_us-ascii Pearl,

I wanted to think about your comments on my comparison of the Hamas to Israeli extremists before I answered you. In the meantime some other topics have come up upon which I would like to comment so if this message seems to ramble a bit I hope you will understand. [...] 20757 83 32_Haaretz: Water and the West Bank11_Mark Hammel18_mhammel@ulster.net31_Thu, 29 Jun 2000 06:48:39 -0400124_us-ascii This might shed some light on the water discussion.

http://www3.haaretz.co.il/eng/scripts/print.asp?id=83291 20841 71 20_Yeshivas For Hilonim17_Martin J. Goodman19_mgoodman@012.net.il31_Thu, 29 Jun 2000 10:21:54 +0200500_windows-1255 29 June 2000

Pearl writes in Habonet Digest 1578: "" maybe someone has to open up a yeshiva for immediately after army secular boys and girls, call it an ashram or whatever, and have it up in the hills away from the tralala of cars and discos, but in Israel. The right person could really make a revolution there...... The American Jews [in the ashram in India] were still further from Judaism than the Israelis so were in more danger of remaining within the ashram world."" [...] 20913 20 24_Re: Yeshivas For Hilonim0_22_Richardrdsmith@aol.com29_Thu, 29 Jun 2000 12:30:07 EDT337_US-ASCII In a message dated 6/29/00 10:00:12 AM Eastern Daylight Time, mgoodman@012.net.il writes:

> I blame (and I do not utter the B word lightly) the lack of spirituality in > Israel squarely at the feet of the Orthodox rabbinate This is the first good thing I've heard about the religious folks in Israel in a long time. [...] 20934 21 20_Yeshivas for Hilonim11_Norman Kane19_normk@earthlink.net31_Thu, 29 Jun 2000 10:52:03 -0700516_us-ascii Martin:

In addition to the blame for the lack of Jewish spirituality in Israel I would like to add the American Conservative & Reform monements who ignored Israel until after 1967 and allowed the Orthodox rabbinate to dictate the parameters of Israeli religious life.

Norm Kane

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 20956 41 42_Re: Jewish Values and the Barak Phenomenon0_24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Thu, 29 Jun 2000 22:55:16 +0300548_US-ASCII Sam, unless you actually ever were inside a yeshiva then you can not make the statements you make. It reminds me of my psychology professor whose first question to our class was "How many of you like to ski?" About 3/4 of the class raised their hands. The second question was "How many of you have actually skied before?" About a third of the class raised their hands. The third question was "How do you know you like to ski if you never skied before?" There are also a reform and conservative yeshiva in Israel. I wrote what I wrote [...] 20998 25 17_Re: Pearl's facts0_24_skolnik@netvision.net.il31_Thu, 29 Jun 2000 22:55:16 +0300508_US-ASCII Sorry, but in Israel it has come out and is known that Rabin was enraged when he realized what was cooked up in Oslo. But, because it was a fait complet he went ahead, since the agreement was signed. He made the best of it he could, but he knew it was a mistake, as do most people in Israel today. You will not find many people here who think that Oslo was a success, since the strategy was wrong. As for Rabin and Peres, the air was very chilly when they were around each other and it is also [...] 21024 197 32_Re: Cherishing Yesterday's Enemy14_David Friedman20_david@friedmedia.com31_Thu, 29 Jun 2000 11:57:00 -0700643_ISO-8859-1 Thank you Amnon, for sharing that excerpt. And for being such a true teacher to me through your postings.

David Friedman Machaneh Tavor/27th Workshop

> From: Amnon Hadary > Reply-To: habonet@shamash.org > Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 21:41:12 +0200 > To: habonet@shamash.org > Subject: Cherishing Yesterday's Enemy > > Haverot/im > I believe that the following lines (many many lines) are a treat; one I'm > ready to share. > When the fighting ceases, when killing is renounced, will there be peace? > In order that Yesterday's Enemy can come to be regarded as tomorrow's > neighbor and fellow [...] 21222 24 24_Re: Yeshivas for Hilonim16_Miriam Bernhardt24_miriam_b@neve-ilan.co.il31_Thu, 29 Jun 2000 23:33:39 +0200451_us-ascii Where do you get the statement that the Conservative and Reform movements ignored Israel until after 1967? At 10:52 29/06/2000 -0700, you wrote: >Martin: > >In addition to the blame for the lack of Jewish spirituality in Israel I >would like to add the American Conservative & Reform monements who >ignored Israel until after 1967 and allowed the Orthodox rabbinate to >dictate the parameters of Israeli religious life. > >Norm Kane > > [...] 21247 37 24_Re: Yeshivas for Hilonim11_Norman Kane19_normk@earthlink.net31_Thu, 29 Jun 2000 23:08:38 -0700453_us-ascii Since I grew up in the second largest Conservative synagogue in L.A. during that period I make that statement based on my own experience. The Zionist branch of the Conservative movement, Mercaz, was unheard of in my youth if it existed at all. I joined Mercaz for a few years, but they published nothing, had no meetings, and only organized themselves for the WZO elections. The rabbis may have spoken of Israel, but only in the abstract, [...] 21285 53 32_Re: Cherishing Yesterday's Enemy0_14_BUBELE@aol.com29_Fri, 30 Jun 2000 03:29:24 EDT610_US-ASCII Amnon, What a fascinatingdiscussion about the classic Greek literature and this marvelous "cherishment" which nourishes, heals and cures, and receives lovingly with devotion our fellow man (albeit most are warriors, and much is funereal)! I think you have elucidated the essence of human loving relations via the Greeks. And I thank you for it and am awed by your brilliance. Many other friends of mine are sure to have much to think about when I forward your stimulating thoughts to them. While reading though, I found my mind returning again and again to our own Torah (a concentration of mine [...] 21339 44 17_RE: Jewish Values12_Fine, Sharon14_FineS@MLHS.ORG31_Fri, 30 Jun 2000 07:58:33 -0400519_- not make the statements you make.> I don't have to be inside a Hamas meeting to know the end results of their meetings, do I?

go to a Jewish camp and she refused to let him. She told me "I > would rather my son became a dope addict than that he become > religious."> Obviously, this mother was extremely ignorant, to have confused Jewish culture and values with Religion. [...] 21384 2583 30_A Little Bialik Summer Reading12_Amnon Hadary22_amriv@netvision.net.il31_Fri, 30 Jun 2000 18:40:12 +0200607_iso-8859-1 Haverot/im There I was yesterday minding my own business at the HU and National Library on Givaat Ram (Hi Aliyah.) Tucked away as a footnote in Arthur A. Cohen's The Natural and the Supernatural Jew I found a reference to Bialik's essay on Jewish Dualism which Cohen called "magical" . My antennae became activated because A. A. Cohen was an exquisite practitioner of English prose. I found the Bialik piece in the July, 1961 volume of the Jewish Frontier-talk about nostalgia! The pages were yellow and frail, the print doesn't quite cut it with a copying machine, and the translation-I've [...] 23968 18 17_Re: Pearl's facts0_17_Smfgrappa@aol.com29_Fri, 30 Jun 2000 11:24:53 EDT474_US-ASCII "It has come out in Israel is not a fact". Its a buba misa.

As for the relationship between Peres and Rabin --- the spent decades at each other's throats. It was only after Oslo that the started appearing in public together and getting along.

------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------+ Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium http://shamash.org ------------------------ habonet@shamash.org -----------------------= 23987 21 24_Re: Yeshivas for Hilonim0_15_DebALev@aol.com24_Fri Jun 30 13:57:30 2000419_US-ASCII Mercaz has only been around for a few years, but that does not mean that the Conservative movement was not active in Zionism; as a movement, it was the only one for many years that espoused Zionism. However, as a movement, it did not have an organizational presence; if you looked at the leadership of other American Zionist organizations, many were led by men affiliated with Conservative organizations. [...]